SNP nonsense

[Jack]

Anyone know what Mark McDonald has actually done? There’s only rumours of him being a sex pest but no actual detail. It seems strange that Sturgeon wants him out of Parliament but the SNP refuse to release the charges made against him.

The Times supposedly ran copies of text messages he sent but you need to subscribe to see them.

[johnbc70]

Anyone know what Mark McDonald has actually done? There’s only rumours of him being a sex pest but no actual detail. It seems strange that Sturgeon wants him out of Parliament but the SNP refuse to release the charges made against him.

Whatever it was his victim is still to return to work I believe. Did he ever hand back his golden goodbye payment , seems a bit much getting a pay off when he basically keeps his day job.

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest polls from Ipsos MORI/STV:

Indy?: Y 48 N 52

Want ref within 3 years?: Y 47 N 53

UK Westminster VI:

SNP 39
Lab 26
Con 25
Lib 6
Grn 4

[JeMeSouviens]

The numbers for age are striking:

Under 55: Y 55 N 45
Over 55: Y 36 N 64

[snooky]

The numbers for age are striking:

Under 55: Y 55 N 45
Over 55: Y 36 N 64

Just a matter of time then? :nerd:

[IGRIGI]

A few more beasts from the east and the jobs done.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A few more beasts from the east and the jobs done.

Wow.

I actually laughed at this, as i assume it is tongue-in-cheek.

However these types of stats make the very unsafe assumption that voters intentions dont alter as they age. I would suggest they often do. So it is just as possible that our ageing population might make a yes vote more difficult in the future.

[johnbc70]

Latest polls from Ipsos MORI/STV:

Indy?: Y 48 N 52

Want ref within 3 years?: Y 47 N 53

UK Westminster VI:

SNP 39
Lab 26
Con 25
Lib 6
Grn 4

So the majority of people in Scotland don't want independence and the majority or people don't want another referendum.

Surely the SNP would have been hoping for more based on the last few years.

[JeMeSouviens]

So the majority of people in Scotland don't want independence and the majority or people don't want another referendum.

Surely the SNP would have been hoping for more based on the last few years.

They probably would. But then again the Unionist side would've hoped that the referendum defeat and subsequent oil price collapse would make this all go away.

On the surface it looks like a relatively static picture but underneath the data shows a N->Y movement from Remainers and a Y->N movement from Leavers.

If it was me I would pitch an Indy Yes vote as continuing EEA membership with the intention to accede to full EU but only after endorsement by a subsequent referendum. Gives both sides of the EU argument the chance to have that fight later.

[JeMeSouviens]

Wow.

I actually laughed at this, as i assume it is tongue-in-cheek.

However these types of stats make the very unsafe assumption that voters intentions dont alter as they age. I would suggest they often do. So it is just as possible that our ageing population might make a yes vote more difficult in the future.

The natural caution with age argument was kind of torpedoed by the EU vote, where the older leavers seem to have been content to throw caution to the wind and risk economic meltdown in an almost certainly futile attempt to wind the clock back to the Britain of their childhoods.

The strongest correlation of Yes/No is declaration of national identity as Scot/Brit and Brit identification soars as you go up in age. Nothing is inevitable, but unless/until the UK side finds a way to make the young people of Scotland buy in to the concept of Britishness, it does look like we're on Tam Dalyell's famous motorway with no exits. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The natural caution with age argument was kind of torpedoed by the EU vote, where the older leavers seem to have been content to throw caution to the wind and risk economic meltdown in an almost certainly futile attempt to wind the clock back to the Britain of their childhoods.

The strongest correlation of Yes/No is declaration of national identity as Scot/Brit and Brit identification soars as you go up in age. Nothing is inevitable, but unless/until the UK side finds a way to make the young people of Scotland buy in to the concept of Britishness, it does look like we're on Tam Dalyell's famous motorway with no exits. :wink:

Possibly, it may well work out like that, amd your points are very valid.

Given the state of politics at the moment, i think drawing straightforward conclusions based on previously logical positions is frought.

[Mr Grieves]

So the majority of people in Scotland don't want independence and the majority or people don't want another referendum.

Surely the SNP would have been hoping for more based on the last few years.

Strong voting numbers for the SNP. Maybe their time in government hasn't been as disastrous as some people suggest.

[lucky]

Strong voting numbers for the SNP. Maybe their time in government hasn't been as disastrous as some people suggest.

Or as good as some would have us believe. One thing is sure Independence is as far off as it has been in the last few years, which is incredible considering the Tory/DUP govt alliance and the farce that is Brexit

[JeMeSouviens]

Or as good as some would have us believe. One thing is sure Independence is as far off as it has been in the last few years, which is incredible considering the Tory/DUP govt alliance and the farce that is Brexit

Not really incredible. The hoped for N->Y swing of pissed off remainers has materialised. What wasn't anticipated was a large Y->N swing among leavers.

tbh, the short term economics of independence given a low oil price and a hard Brexit with Scotland in the single market look challenging to say the least. Otoh, the advantage we'd have vs rUK being in the single market and (along with Ireland) being the English speaking bridge to that market, make the long term prospects much better.

[One Day Soon]

Not really incredible. The hoped for N->Y swing of pissed off remainers has materialised. What wasn't anticipated was a large Y->N swing among leavers.

tbh, the short term economics of independence given a low oil price and a hard Brexit with Scotland in the single market look challenging to say the least. Otoh, the advantage we'd have vs rUK being in the single market and (along with Ireland) being the English speaking bridge to that market, make the long term prospects much better.


I'd say that's a fair assessment of where things are at right now. It's all about the medium to long term strategy for both sides with all to play for. Nats currently further away from Indy than they were in recent years but with cards to play over time. In some ways its the UK's game to throw away - which at the moment they're trying quite hard to do. Let's see what real Brexit looks like.

If you want Indy on the basis above you need to sort out growth rates, currency question and structural deficit. And be in power at the same time as those are more or less sorted so you can hold a referendum.

However I think the extended period of SNP government is a slowly closing window so that's a factor too...

[snooky]

Another factor is the floating voters are referendumed out. The Brexit one hot on the heels of Indy1 didn't help matters. The floaters just need some breathing space however, because of Brexit that may not be forthcoming.

[ronaldo7]

Alex cole Hamilton and his pal Davey Torrance will be beilin after getting the knock back from Ofcom.:greengrin

https://t.co/We5aRw51Wr

[lucky]

Alex cole Hamilton and his pal Davey Torrance will be beilin after getting the knock back from Ofcom.:greengrin

https://t.co/We5aRw51Wr

Glad to see your endorsing bullying/mocking of a journalist. Are journalists now allowed to challenge the Nat narrative in your Scotland?

[ronaldo7]

Glad to see your endorsing bullying/mocking of a journalist. Are journalists now allowed to challenge the Nat narrative in your Scotland?

Am I?

I thought I was laughing at Alex Cole Hamilton and his bid to have a go at the SNP. It had nothing to do with Davey Torrance whatsoever, at any time. :aok:

[lucky]

Am I?

I thought I was laughing at Alex Cole Hamilton and his bid to have a go at the SNP. It had nothing to do with Davey Torrance whatsoever, at any time. :aok:

Yes you are, you even mention David Torrance in your post :aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

Alex cole Hamilton and his pal Davey Torrance will be beilin after getting the knock back from Ofcom.:greengrin

https://t.co/We5aRw51Wr

You've posted a link to the National, it's just a propaganda sheet!

How about you post a rational argument, in your own words, arguing your case?

[ronaldo7]

You've posted a link to the National, it's just a propaganda sheet!

How about you post a rational argument, in your own words, arguing your case?

It's not really that difficult to follow, as I'm sure you're aware.

1. SNP ppb is broadcast without much fuss, until someone says theirs a lookalikey in the position of daft Davey.

2. Daft Davey is supposed to by an journalist who has a beard, and is supposed to be portraying David Torrance.

3. David Torrance doesn't seemed bothered by it all.

4. Step forward Alex Cole Hamilton (who's an old school chum of DT), he's apoplectic with rage, and decides to write a letter of complaint to Ofcom.

5. Meanwhile, other Journo's start ripping DT, who's still not too perturbed.

6. It's then covered 24/7 on all MSM

7. Time passes, and Ofcom finally tell ACH to get a grip, and get on with the day job.

8. Most folk laugh about said outcome, as was always going to come to pass. Some others accuse those laughing of bullying/mocking, DT, who's still not too perturbed.

The end.

PS other propaganda sheets are available. :wink:

[snooky]

I had to afford myself a wee chuckle tonight when the Beeb highlighted some dogy stuff in the Ruskie elections (stuffing ballot boxes, balloons used to block security camera views).
You'd never see anything like that in UK elections/referendums. They're all above board ...... now move along please. :cb

[johnbc70]

I had to afford myself a wee chuckle tonight when the Beeb highlighted some dogy stuff in the Ruskie elections (stuffing ballot boxes, balloons used to block security camera views).
You'd never see anything like that in UK elections/referendums. They're all above board ...... now move along please. :cb

Got evidence to prove it, proper evidence though please?

[One Day Soon]

I had to afford myself a wee chuckle tonight when the Beeb highlighted some dogy stuff in the Ruskie elections (stuffing ballot boxes, balloons used to block security camera views).
You'd never see anything like that in UK elections/referendums. They're all above board ...... now move along please. :cb


Please tell me you're not serious?

[lucky]

I had to afford myself a wee chuckle tonight when the Beeb highlighted some dogy stuff in the Ruskie elections (stuffing ballot boxes, balloons used to block security camera views).
You'd never see anything like that in UK elections/referendums. They're all above board ...... now move along please. :cb

Do you believe that? If elections were as bad as you suggest we would not be leaving the EU, have had a Labour govt, devolved govts, allowed BNP or UKIP Euro MPs. Unless your post is thinly disguised attempt at saying the 2014 referendum was rigged.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I had to afford myself a wee chuckle tonight when the Beeb highlighted some dogy stuff in the Ruskie elections (stuffing ballot boxes, balloons used to block security camera views).
You'd never see anything like that in UK elections/referendums. They're all above board ...... now move along please. :cb

This is no different to the kind of tactics the alt-right and Trump use. A perfect example of 'fake news'.

[snooky]

Do you believe that? If elections were as bad as you suggest we would not be leaving the EU, have had a Labour govt, devolved govts, allowed BNP or UKIP Euro MPs. Unless your post is thinly disguised attempt at saying the 2014 referendum was rigged.
Me? I believe everything .................................................. is a lie. :wink:

[JimBHibees]

You've posted a link to the National, it's just a propaganda sheet!

How about you post a rational argument, in your own words, arguing your case?

All papers are it just happens to be the only one out of 30 odd with a nationalist editorial.

[Peevemor]

All papers are it just happens to be the only one out of 30 odd with a nationalist editorial.

:agree:

[Beefster]

Got evidence to prove it, proper evidence though please?

You don't need evidence these days. Any utterance on the Interweb just has to validate someone's worldview for them to jump in line behind it.

[EH54]

I personally think its naive to think nothing dodgy happens in elections or referendums here. It may not be stuffing ballots or wrongfully counting but you just have to look at all the financial scandals hidden money etc etc to know that its not all above board. I wouldn't say they are rigged though.

[Hiber-nation]

You don't need evidence these days. Any utterance on the Interweb just has to validate someone's worldview for them to jump in line behind it.

Yep, think I might start my own online blog of page after page of spurious ill-conceived pish. It might be quoted on here one day.

[snooky]

"Quote"
Yep, think I might start my own online blog of page after page of spurious ill-conceived pish. It might be quoted on here one day.

At last, somebody who knows what they're talking about. :greengrin

[Future17]

I had to afford myself a wee chuckle tonight when the Beeb highlighted some dogy stuff in the Ruskie elections (stuffing ballot boxes, balloons used to block security camera views).
You'd never see anything like that in UK elections/referendums. They're all above board ...... now move along please. :cb

In my first-hand experience of the administration of elections and referendums, I never saw anything which came close to a deliberate attempt to interfere with the outcome. A few incidents of rank stupidity and naivety yes, but nothing deliberate.

What I will say, however, is that there are various aspects of electoral events in this country which are entirely open to manipulation. Essentially, the administration is broadly similar to Russia and is, therefore, no less prone to interference from those with the capability to do so. The difference in this country is that there is genuine democracy and a widespread will to ensure these events are entirely legitimate. We should appreciate how lucky we are in that regard.

On a side note, the aftermath of the Independence Referendum was perhaps the most eye-opening time of my life with regard to human psychology - and perhaps my earliest exposure to "fake news". I dealt with literally hundreds of people who had read accounts of people making a specific allegation of electoral fraud, seen a viral video which made similar (entirely fictitious) claims and convinced themselves they had had the same experience. In certain cases I categorically knew the accounts of the people I spoke with were untrue but, with the exception of a few obvious chancers, it seemed they genuinely believed what they were saying.

[JeMeSouviens]

In my first-hand experience of the administration of elections and referendums, I never saw anything which came close to a deliberate attempt to interfere with the outcome. A few incidents of rank stupidity and naivety yes, but nothing deliberate.

What I will say, however, is that there are various aspects of electoral events in this country which are entirely open to manipulation. Essentially, the administration is broadly similar to Russia and is, therefore, no less prone to interference from those with the capability to do so. The difference in this country is that there is genuine democracy and a widespread will to ensure these events are entirely legitimate. We should appreciate how lucky we are in that regard.

On a side note, the aftermath of the Independence Referendum was perhaps the most eye-opening time of my life with regard to human psychology - and perhaps my earliest exposure to "fake news". I dealt with literally hundreds of people who had read accounts of people making a specific allegation of electoral fraud, seen a viral video which made similar (entirely fictitious) claims and convinced themselves they had had the same experience. In certain cases I categorically knew the accounts of the people I spoke with were untrue but, with the exception of a few obvious chancers, it seemed they genuinely believed what they were saying.

Really? People believe in homeopathy ffs. :wink:

[Future17]

Really? People believe in homeopathy ffs. :wink:

I've never had to deal with them. :-)

[Hiber-nation]

"Quote"

At last, somebody who knows what they're talking about. :greengrin

:thumbsup:

[snooky]

Just read a comment from somone who said that it was ridiculous that UK passports were being printed in France and they should be printed in ENGLAND.
There lies both the problems with our nation.

[One Day Soon]

Just read a comment from somone who said that it was ridiculous that UK passports were being printed in France and they should be printed in ENGLAND.
There lies both the problems with our nation.

Not sure I understand this point.

[snooky]

Not sure I understand this point.

1st point - you would think with all the hoops a British citizen has to jump through to get a passport the government would keep the making of them in house (i.e. the UK) for security reasons obviously.
2nd point - the continual use of "England" when it's plain they mean Great Britain. A small point maybe, but it does irk me.
You probably will disagree with both points. And that's fine. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Nice to see another SNP councillor elected in Penicuik yesterday.

https://www.midlothian.gov.uk/news/article/2437/penicuik_by-election_result

[Bristolhibby]

1st point - you would think with all the hoops a British citizen has to jump through to get a passport the government would keep the making of them in house (i.e. the UK) for security reasons obviously.
2nd point - the continual use of "England" when it's plain they mean Great Britain. A small point maybe, but it does irk me.
You probably will disagree with both points. And that's fine. :wink:

EU Procurement law. We can’t favour any company (even British) over another EU company, unless there is an exemption.

Unfortunately wee books with photos in them don’t get an exemption, submarine building however, does.

I’m sure the Home office Procurement team selected the most economically advantageous tender. (Ie best value for money for the taxpayer). We can’t buy British if it means getting shafted by a British company.

FWIW, I don’t see that changing post Brexit, or things are going to get mighty expensive for us taxpayers.

J

[snooky]

EU Procurement law. We can’t favour any company (even British) over another EU company, unless there is an exemption.

Unfortunately wee books with photos in them don’t get an exemption, submarine building however, does.

I’m sure the Home office Procurement team selected the most economically advantageous tender. (Ie best value for money for the taxpayer). We can’t buy British if it means getting shafted by a British company.

FWIW, I don’t see that changing post Brexit, or things are going to get mighty expensive for us taxpayers.

J
A-ha! That's it then, I'm on the No vote side now. I'm not having my passport made anywhere but here. :grr:

"Procurement". Why is it everytime that word comes up it is attached to something I don't want but am being forced into?. I've yet to have personal experience of it working the other way.

[Bristolhibby]

A-ha! That's it then, I'm on the No vote side now. I'm not having my passport made anywhere but here. :grr:

"Procurement". Why is it everytime that word comes up it is attached to something I don't want but am being forced into?. I've yet to have personal experience of it working the other way.

It’s just the name for “buying stuff”.

All Government Departments, companies and your man in the market stall do it.

J

[snooky]

Well done the Daily Mail for headlining the SNP's £100k spending on Facebook.
Shocking news.

Not so shocking apparently (as they don't mention it), is the other parties spending on on F/B.
Conservative £2.1m
Labour £577k
Lib/Dem £412k
Greens £19k
(SNP £43k)

[johnbc70]

Well done the Daily Mail for headlining the SNP's £100k spending on Facebook.
Shocking news.

Not so shocking apparently (as they don't mention it), is the other parties spending on on F/B.
Conservative £2.1m
Labour £577k
Lib/Dem £412k
Greens £19k
(SNP £43k)

Depending on your viewpoint as either it's the above, or it's hypocrisy as the SNP have been very good at data mining Facebook data for years and have boasted about how well it has served them.

As I say you will see it one way or the other.

[snooky]

Depending on your viewpoint as either it's the above, or it's hypocrisy as the SNP have been very good at data mining Facebook data for years and have boasted about how well it has served them.

As I say you will see it one way or the other.

Fair enough. Folk can take from both posts what they wish. I should add, I was a bit hesitant about posting the figures as I wasn't 100% of their accuracy as they could obviously be as twisted as the DM's appear to be.
My argument isn't with political parties using Facebook or how much they spend on it,. The problem I have wiith this is the daily barrage of anti-SNP propaganda from that 'newspaper' and it's ilk. Most of the Press in this country are a disgrace to their profession. Btw, I'm including the extreme right, the extreme left and all the colours in between.

[johnbc70]

Fair enough. Folk can take from both posts what they wish. I should add, I was a bit hesitant about posting the figures as I wasn't 100% of their accuracy as they could obviously be as twisted as the DM's appear to be.
My argument isn't with political parties using Facebook or how much they spend on it,. The problem I have wiith this is the daily barrage of anti-SNP propaganda from that 'newspaper' and it's ilk. Most of the Press in this country are a disgrace to their profession. Btw, I'm including the extreme right, the extreme left and all the colours in between.

Buy the National then, full of the opposite.

[snooky]

Buy the National then, full of the opposite.

The National comes under the same umbrella as the rest. They all have differing levels of ethics. The Daily Mail has none, IMO

[Moulin Yarns]

Having been at a meeting of a Yes campaign group today I have to say that I was surprised at how much the SNP used social media to farm opinions. I almost walked away as it was Almost a branch meeting. I'll give it another go as it was the first meeting.

[snooky]

Fair enough. Folk can take from both posts what they wish. I should add, *I was a bit hesitant about posting the figures as I wasn't 100% of their accuracy as they could obviously be as twisted as the DM's appear to be.
My argument isn't with political parties using Facebook or how much they spend on it,. The problem I have wiith this is the daily barrage of anti-SNP propaganda from that 'newspaper' and it's ilk. Most of the Press in this country are a disgrace to their profession. Btw, I'm including the extreme right, the extreme left and all the colours in between.

*Addition info on figures. -->> 20454

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Having been at a meeting of a Yes campaign group today I have to say that I was surprised at how much the SNP used social media to farm opinions. I almost walked away as it was Almost a branch meeting. I'll give it another go as it was the first meeting.

The nats have been very proud of their use of databases etc, they werr way ahead of the other parties and their willingness to embrace the new undoubtedly helped them leave the other parties in their wake in the last decade or so.

A company called, i think, industrial new media, run by a guy called kirk torrance were pivotal to their digital work.

[ronaldo7]

Well done the Daily Mail for headlining the SNP's £100k spending on Facebook.
Shocking news.

Not so shocking apparently (as they don't mention it), is the other parties spending on on F/B.
Conservative £2.1m
Labour £577k
Lib/Dem £412k
Greens £19k
(SNP £43k)

They had to have a deflection story on the front page, otherwise someone might have joined the dots and mentioned Cambridge analytica, or the Russian rubbles rushing into the Tory coffers.

Then again, maybe the vast amount of cash the Tories spent on their social media tactics came from the same sources...Who knows?

[ronaldo7]

The nats have been very proud of their use of databases etc, they werr way ahead of the other parties and their willingness to embrace the new undoubtedly helped them leave the other parties in their wake in the last decade or so.

A company called, i think, industrial new media, run by a guy called kirk torrance were pivotal to their digital work.

Ah, Kirk. "Former" new media strategist at the SNP 2010-2016, and SNP member.:aok:

https://twitter.com/KirkJTorrance/status/978235188537835520

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Ah, Kirk. "Former" new media strategist at the SNP 2010-2016, and SNP member.:aok:

https://twitter.com/KirkJTorrance/status/978235188537835520

He seems to be protesting A LOT on his twitter...

[snooky]

Extracted from the Scottish Express......

JEREMY CLARKSON TAKES SWIPE AT SCOTLAND OVER INDEPENDENCE BID AMID 'POST-BREXIT' RANT
JEREMY CLARKSON has taken a dig at the Scotland’s bid for independence as he spoke out about the political issues the UK will face after Brexit whilst ranting about the 2014 referendum.
The 58-year-old former Top Gear presenter insisted that he “doesn’t understand” the need for Scottish independence.
“Scotland had a vote on independence in 2014, and sanity prevailed,” he said. “Then those who lost immediately decided they’d like another vote.
“And so it will go until, eventually, they win, and we will have to post soldiers on the road out of Gretna Green,” he wrote in his Sunday Times column.
“I don’t understand the need for Scottish independence,” The Grand Tour host continued.
“The Battle of Falkirk was a very long time ago. And it’s not as is England can win the Calcutta Cup any more.
I don’t understand the need for Scottish independence “
“What’s more, the Scottish have exactly the same problem with going it alone as we’ll have post-Brexit.”
Jeremy Clarkson went on to say that a “bicurious artisan” who sells clothes knitted “from her own armpit hair” in the Scottish Highlands doesn’t have much in common politically with “a heroin enthusiast from the tenements in Glasgow”.
He stated that independence would not unite the country or “bring Sean Connery back”.
“Do they want different laws?” he asked. “Really? What laws?
“Legalisation of burglary? The age of consent raised to 48? Compulsory yodelling for anyone on a bicycle?


Well, that's convinced me.
I am now confident I can described my opinion of this man in four letters.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Extracted from the Scottish Express......

JEREMY CLARKSON TAKES SWIPE AT SCOTLAND OVER INDEPENDENCE BID AMID 'POST-BREXIT' RANT
JEREMY CLARKSON has taken a dig at the Scotland’s bid for independence as he spoke out about the political issues the UK will face after Brexit whilst ranting about the 2014 referendum.
The 58-year-old former Top Gear presenter insisted that he “doesn’t understand” the need for Scottish independence.
“Scotland had a vote on independence in 2014, and sanity prevailed,” he said. “Then those who lost immediately decided they’d like another vote.
“And so it will go until, eventually, they win, and we will have to post soldiers on the road out of Gretna Green,” he wrote in his Sunday Times column.
“I don’t understand the need for Scottish independence,” The Grand Tour host continued.
“The Battle of Falkirk was a very long time ago. And it’s not as is England can win the Calcutta Cup any more.
I don’t understand the need for Scottish independence “
“What’s more, the Scottish have exactly the same problem with going it alone as we’ll have post-Brexit.”
Jeremy Clarkson went on to say that a “bicurious artisan” who sells clothes knitted “from her own armpit hair” in the Scottish Highlands doesn’t have much in common politically with “a heroin enthusiast from the tenements in Glasgow”.
He stated that independence would not unite the country or “bring Sean Connery back”.
“Do they want different laws?” he asked. “Really? What laws?
“Legalisation of burglary? The age of consent raised to 48? Compulsory yodelling for anyone on a bicycle?


Well, that's convinced me.
I am now confident I can described my opinion of this man in four letters.

😁 the bi-curious artisan line is pretty funny!

I have to admit though, that the massive drag glasgow and the west central Scotland would be on an indy Scotland is something thay concerns me.

[heretoday]

Clarkson's views are no more informed than the average punter down the pub. I suppose that's his attraction for a lot of people.
The difference is he had the opportunity to express them to the wider world.

[lord bunberry]

Clarkson's views are no more informed than the average punter down the pub. I suppose that's his attraction for a lot of people.
The difference is he had the opportunity to express them to the wider world.
It’s also not meant to be taken seriously.

[Geo_1875]

It’s also not meant to be taken seriously.

Yet The Scotsman gives his Sunday Times article prominence on their website. Someone's taking it seriously.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yet The Scotsman gives his Sunday Times article prominence on their website. Someone's taking it seriously.

They are relying on 'outrage' - total clickbait.

They will be ringing around SNP MSPs trying to get one who is stupid or desperate enough to commment or respond - the nats are usually pretty savvy with this kind of thing though.

[JeMeSouviens]

They are relying on 'outrage' - total clickbait.

They will be ringing around SNP MSPs trying to get one who is stupid or desperate enough to commment or respond - the nats are usually pretty savvy with this kind of thing though.

The Sun is running a story about Derek Mackay's brother (who is a Hun) posting a video on facebook of himself, his fiancee and other Huns singing the Billy Boys at an Old Firm game.


A Tory spokesman said: “This is the brother of the second most powerful man in Scotland, posting a vile sectarian song. On the very same page he is embracing leading politicians.”

Do they *really* want to go there?

[snooky]

They are relying on 'outrage' - total clickbait.

They will be ringing around SNP MSPs trying to get one who is stupid or desperate enough to commment or respond - the nats are usually pretty savvy with this kind of thing though.

I don't have a problem with Clarkson having his own personal views on the matter.
However, political views aside, he's a totally obnoxious walloper.

[snooky]

The Sun is running a story about Derek Mackay's brother (who is a Hun) posting a video on facebook of himself, his fiancee and other Huns singing the Billy Boys at an Old Firm game.
Do they *really* want to go there?

To the Sun -
"I am not my brother's keeper" (Genesis)
End of.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The Sun is running a story about Derek Mackay's brother (who is a Hun) posting a video on facebook of himself, his fiancee and other Huns singing the Billy Boys at an Old Firm game.



Do they *really* want to go there?

I agree with you, but i would ask the question if the roles were reversed, would some of the more rabid nats on here accept that?

But you cant blame McKay... god knows im sure we are all pretty disgusted with some of things our relatives come out with.

I will just never understand the need of so many people to post everythign on the internet.

[ronaldo7]

I agree with you, but i would ask the question if the roles were reversed, would some of the more rabid nats on here accept that?

But you cant blame McKay... god knows im sure we are all pretty disgusted with some of things our relatives come out with.

I will just never understand the need of so many people to post everythign on the internet.

More than enough to be going on with, with the Tories in power at the moment.

#Windrush #Rapeclause #Bedroomtax #Syria

Anyone caught singing sectarian songs should be hung from the local Mercat cross, and pelted with rotten veg.

[Smartie]

To the Sun -
"I am not my brother's keeper" (Genesis)
End of.

Great quote, which makes me feel a bit better about the fact that my brother used to work for the Sun.

[ronaldo7]

It's great to see a deal being done to keep the three yards open at Bi-fab. Let's hope they can start getting a pipeline of orders, up and running.

https://t.co/7eIxVNc01u

[cabbageandribs1875]

a wonderful sight at todays under one banner march :agree:


https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/936/cpsprodpb/12A1E/production/_101181367_31945776_10160292504615335_633817031916 9126400_n.jpg

[snooky]

There's at least 50 folk there. Must check the BBC website for confirmation. :whistle:

[weecounty hibby]

I was there today and the crowd was amazing, I would estimate probably about 50,000 maybe even more. There was a small counter protest by about 20 union jack waving, very angry, red faced, eejits. They were in complete contrast to the colourful, happy, exciting march. It will happen one day soon

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/Jonny_Nabb/status/993421219369291776

:faf:

[greenlex]

https://twitter.com/Jonny_Nabb/status/993421219369291776

:faf:
Belter.

[snooky]

https://twitter.com/Jonny_Nabb/status/993421219369291776

:faf:

20740

[EH54]

Couldn't make the march but looked fantastic much bigger turn out that I expected. The movement continues to grow I remember the one in 2012 well think the organizers figure for this was 14,000 and was reported around 9,000 compared to now where even the lowest numbers of 35,000 is impressive for a movement that is apparently dead.

[snooky]

I usually check the headlines each day on the News Now site. I noticed a while ago that the Daily Express never misses a day to have an "SNP bad" leader.
FFS, even the Mail and Torygraph stop to take a breather once in a while. It's at the laughable stage now.

[ronaldo7]

See those pesky Nationalist *******s are forcing a 3% rise on lots of NHS Staff.

It's a scandal I tell ye. :aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

See those pesky Nationalist *******s are forcing a 3% rise on lots of NHS Staff.

It's a scandal I tell ye. :aok:

I see you've posted this on a couple of threads.

The unions said that Scottish NHS workers had suffered a 15% cut in real terms since 2010. Are they lying?

They also called for a 3.9% rise this year and an additional 800 pounds to match increases in the cost of living - that's going to be a bit more than 3% isn't it?

[JimBHibees]

I usually check the headlines each day on the News Now site. I noticed a while ago that the Daily Express never misses a day to have an "SNP bad" leader.
FFS, even the Mail and Torygraph stop to take a breather once in a while. It's at the laughable stage now.

Totally agree an absolute onslaught, shameful in the extreme.

[ronaldo7]

I see you've posted this on a couple of threads.

The unions said that Scottish NHS workers had suffered a 15% cut in real terms since 2010. Are they lying?

They also called for a 3.9% rise this year and an additional 800 pounds to match increases in the cost of living - that's going to be a bit more than 3% isn't it?

I have.

Are you not happy to see nurses in Scotland getting paid more than nurses in other parts of the UK? Maybe we should just leave the 1% pay cap in place and forget about them.

We can maybe get those nurses in England and Wales to catch up, by putting pressure on those administrations to get their act together.

Yes, things have been bad for a while, I thought even you, with your Nationalist tendencies 😉 would find it within yourself to see the good in this story.

Then again...

[Mibbes Aye]

Not seen anybody commenting on the reshuffle yet, I'm curious as to what our nationalist brethren have to say about it.

It looks like Robison, Brown and Constance have been told to resign or be fired, on the same day the SNP shelved their flagship piece of legislation on education, because Cosla and the unions said it was a shambles. And Humza Yousaf moved from the Transport portfolio where he made a car crash (no pun intended) of things.

A bunch of other junior ministers also got told to quit, including Maureen Watt, the minister with responsibility for mental health. That's fitting because in the 2000s Scotland led the way in progressive legislation relating to mental health. The ten-year national strategy launched last year is insipid though, lacking the detail that will drive improvement and change and far too much of a medical model.

Robison's departure is neatly accompanied by the publication of the independent report into falsification of waiting times in NHS Lothian. The health service in Scotland is in a shambles, NHS Lothian missing every target going, NHS Tayside using charitable donations to fund core costs. The accountability doesn't stop with Robison though, Sturgeone had the portfolio before her and as FM should be taking responsibility.

[johnbc70]

So Health and Education a shambles. I am sure someone will be along soon to tell us how it's Westminsters fault?

[RyeSloan]

Not seen anybody commenting on the reshuffle yet, I'm curious as to what our nationalist brethren have to say about it.

It looks like Robison, Brown and Constance have been told to resign or be fired, on the same day the SNP shelved their flagship piece of legislation on education, because Cosla and the unions said it was a shambles. And Humza Yousaf moved from the Transport portfolio where he made a car crash (no pun intended) of things.

A bunch of other junior ministers also got told to quit, including Maureen Watt, the minister with responsibility for mental health. That's fitting because in the 2000s Scotland led the way in progressive legislation relating to mental health. The ten-year national strategy launched last year is insipid though, lacking the detail that will drive improvement and change and far too much of a medical model.

Robison's departure is neatly accompanied by the publication of the independent report into falsification of waiting times in NHS Lothian. The health service in Scotland is in a shambles, NHS Lothian missing every target going, NHS Tayside using charitable donations to fund core costs. The accountability doesn't stop with Robison though, Sturgeone had the portfolio before her and as FM should be taking responsibility.

Not much that can be said really. Sturgeons years in charge has proven to be rather insipid with key areas like education and health appearing to go backwards and economic growth well behind even the much berated U.K.

Interesting that her statement had Brexit as the focus, she must realise that trying to flog that one as the driver for the reshuffle just makes her look all the more evasive.

The lack of accountability on the NHS Tayside debacle is rather typical I say and is somewhat wearisome.

And as for the Education reforms, well whether they are good or bad that’s a total mess.

That’s said did look at some of the proposals agreed with the councils...they contained the revolutionary agreement that schools should be empowered to make the decisions that most affect outcomes for students and even more amazing is that councils can intervene of the head breaks statutory, financial or contractual obligations! I mean pheeeeeewwww how did they come up with such transformational ideas?

[Mibbes Aye]

Not much that can be said really. Sturgeons years in charge has proven to be rather insipid with key areas like education and health appearing to go backwards and economic growth well behind even the much berated U.K.

Interesting that her statement had Brexit as the focus, she must realise that trying to flog that one as the driver for the reshuffle just makes her look all the more evasive.

The lack of accountability on the NHS Tayside debacle is rather typical I say and is somewhat wearisome.

And as for the Education reforms, well whether they are good or bad that’s a total mess.

That’s said did look at some of the proposals agreed with the councils...they contained the revolutionary agreement that schools should be empowered to make the decisions that most affect outcomes for students and even more amazing is that councils can intervene of the head breaks statutory, financial or contractual obligations! I mean pheeeeeewwww how did they come up with such transformational ideas?

I've always found that a general test of whether something is a mess is if it unites both Cosla and the unions in opposition. Especially nowadays, where Cosla isn't essentially a Labour body.

One of the big issues with the proposals is that headteachers are seriously overworked as it is. The government is rolling out funding to increase the levels of early years care, practically doubling what they currently fund for 3-4 year-olds and eligible 2-year olds. That's fine in principle, though actually you might disagree about that - the degree to which the state is shaping children's thinking at a critical age in terms of their intellectual and social development :greengrin

The point is that the funding is there to pay for the provision. Whether the people are there to actually staff the provision is another thing. More importantly, primary heads are expected to take on management responsibility for this doubling of provision where it is delivered within the school setting, which is the default because the private sector isn't there in scale or size in significant parts of the country. These are primary heads who are already overworked, with shortages of principal teachers. It's just as well the Named Person legislation was shelved as that would have been impossible to implement.

The reality is that policy is being developed in silos and while it may have good intentions, it's almost being set up to fail. The two core functions that have always sat within Scottish legislation, health and education, the two most important things in people's lives, are being utterly, utterly mismanaged.

[Tornadoes70]

Replacing Sturgeon's Snp useless no hopers with yet more of Sturgeon's Snp probably even worse useless no hopers is tragic. They'll simply stumble on inventing ever more falsehoods of big bad Westminster being to blame while continuing to fail Scotland and its folk within in their bleak and ever more oppressive manner until we finally have the opportunity to throw these political fraudsters out. Hopefully to be replaced by Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party who will work with the rest of the UK in delivering real socialist policies not just here in Scotland but across the whole of the UK.

Sturgeon's entire Snp needs to be ejected.

Mon Scottish Labour

:flag:

[speedy_gonzales]

The reality is that policy is being developed in silos and while it may have good intentions, it's almost being set up to fail. The two core functions that have always sat within Scottish legislation, health and education, the two most important things in people's lives, are being utterly, utterly mismanaged.
I'd like to add transport to that list. Whilst a lot of funding comes from WM, Transport Scotland has not been getting everything right recently.. I can't put too much blame at the feet of Humza Yousaf as there should be enough knowledgeable types within the ministry to keep him and policy on-track but lately there's been a lot of new faces coming in to the Scotrail Alliance that know more about spreadsheets than running regular and reliable services.

[Pretty Boy]

As long as independence, or another referendum on independence, remains almost within touching distance there will be no real critique of SNP performance from their own core support. Ultimately the core support are those who have to hold any party to account.

'Judge us on education' or whatever is just an empty phrase to the extent that as long as people believe Nicola Sturgeon can deliver the raison d'etre then almost every other issue is redundant. The opposition parties need to shoulder a chunk of the blame because for the best part of a decade there hasn't been an opposition worth talking about.

[grunt]

The two core functions that have always sat within Scottish legislation, health and education, the two most important things in people's lives, are being utterly, utterly mismanaged.
Out of interest, can you point to any Government department anywhere in any part of the UK which is managing its function well? I'm just wondering if there's anyone out there that meets your standards. Serious question.

[weecounty hibby]

As long as independence, or another referendum on independence, remains almost within touching distance there will be no real critique of SNP performance from their own core support. Ultimately the core support are those who have to hold any party to account.

'Judge us on education' or whatever is just an empty phrase to the extent that as long as people believe Nicola Sturgeon can deliver the raison d'etre then almost every other issue is redundant. The opposition parties need to shoulder a chunk of the blame because for the best part of a decade there hasn't been an opposition worth talking about.

As a lifelong supporter of the SNP you are 100% correct for me. I will keep voting SNP until the time that Scotland is an independent nation or Scottish Labour go back to their roots and support Scottish independence. Could the SNP government do better? Of course they could. Could Labour have done better when they were in power? Of course they could. The SNP vote for me and for the many of my friends who also vote that way is a means to an end, we want and firmly believe in an independent Scotland. Ironically probably 90% of us would vote Labour in an independent Scotland.
You are also spot on when you say that the opposition has been incredibly weak in the last ten years and still are, no matter how much one particular poster on here would have you believe that Richard Leonard is the new Kier Hardie

[Tornadoes70]

Out of interest, can you point to any Government department anywhere in any part of the UK which is managing its function well? I'm just wondering if there's anyone out there that meets your standards. Serious question.

Better accepting the fact Sturgeon's Snp are a complete calamitous shambles as a party supposed to be running our country. There's absolutely no point trying to deflect attention away or point elsewhere.

Its become transparently clear to most folk that while the Snp are constantly engaged in stoking party political tensions with Westminster that they are failing Scotland by being utterly inept at governance.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[Bristolhibby]

If people are dissatisfied with the SNP, vote them out.

They do, time and time again keep getting re-elected.

J

[grunt]

Better accepting the fact Sturgeon's Snp are a complete calamitous shambles as a party supposed to be running our country. There's absolutely no point trying to deflect attention away or point elsewhere.

Its become transparently clear to most folk that while the Snp are constantly engaged in stoking party political tensions with Westminster they are failing Scotland by being utterly inept at governance.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:Thank you for your insight. I've ignored it already.

[grunt]

You are also spot on when you say that the opposition has been incredibly weak in the last ten years and still are, no matter how much one particular poster on here would have you believe that Richard Leonard is the new Kier HardieI think you mean Keir Hardy …

https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article12157545.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/DX2Kf0WWsAAuPA6.jpg

[Mibbes Aye]

Out of interest, can you point to any Government department anywhere in any part of the UK which is managing its function well? I'm just wondering if there's anyone out there that meets your standards. Serious question.

Fair question and I'll do my best to respond.

This is a thread about various things, but essentially how the SNP government has managed things. The two main things being health and education, which are the two things that government, either directly or through the health boards and local authorities spends the lion's share of the money on. One could argue that overall finance should be included, though that's not a spend as such, it's more a policy matter. Anyway, the Growth Commission, staffed by Nats, has said that Scotland would essentially face another ten years of austerity under SNP proposals so it seems fair to say that the fiscal outlook isn't cheery.

As far as it goes, I think health and social care is in a worse state in England but I would caveat that by saying England is two years ahead in the impact of cuts on local authorities. We have worse to come. Social care is the biggest spend in local authorities and is being desperately squeezed. At the same time, the local authorities have to cut everything else to meet their statutory obligations in relation to education and social care.

When you think about it, it adds up. If you are a frail pensioner, you need your pavements to be clear and gritted in the winter, you need your council to have an advice line about your entitlements to benefits, you need your library to offer internet access because you can't afford a contract, you benefit from the lunch club that keeps you connected to people, you benefit from the welfare transport that takes you there and drops you back home. These are all the kinds of services councils offered but have had to retract because they don't have the money. And these are all the kinds of services, that in combination, help prevent older people from having to access the health and social care services that they end up needing, because there wasn't the early intervention or preventative input.

Things have got worse in health and education under the SNP's watch. By their measures. They need to own that and take responsibility. The fact that it might be just as bad or worse in Cardiff or Coventry doesn't really matter.

[weecounty hibby]

Better accepting the fact Sturgeon's Snp are a complete calamitous shambles as a party supposed to be running our country. There's absolutely no point trying to deflect attention away or point elsewhere.

Its become transparently clear to most folk that while the Snp are constantly engaged in stoking party political tensions with Westminster that they are failing Scotland by being utterly inept at governance.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

It really hasn't become increasingly clear to anyone if you look at the opinion polls. SNP still ahead and your fabulous labour party still third. Behind the Tories. In Scotland. When the UK Tory govt are widely accepted as being on of the worst ever. No matter how much you cheerleader for them Scottish Labour are still a state. The government could and should be doing better but until you share with us what the magical labour policies are then you won't be picking up anytime soon.

[weecounty hibby]

I think you mean Keir Hardy …

https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article12157545.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/DX2Kf0WWsAAuPA6.jpg

Yip but only if you are totally stupid and ignorant of political history 😂

[Smartie]

As long as independence, or another referendum on independence, remains almost within touching distance there will be no real critique of SNP performance from their own core support. Ultimately the core support are those who have to hold any party to account.

'Judge us on education' or whatever is just an empty phrase to the extent that as long as people believe Nicola Sturgeon can deliver the raison d'etre then almost every other issue is redundant. The opposition parties need to shoulder a chunk of the blame because for the best part of a decade there hasn't been an opposition worth talking about.

I'm a former member of the SNP, have voted for them every time I have had the opportunity, voted Yes in 2014 and will probably continue in the same manner in future, so it would be fair to say that I am part of their "core support".

I think their performance in government leaves a lot to be desired. On education they are a shambles, I am appalled by the state of what has gone on there. Next up I'd say would their performance regarding policing - absolutely atrocious, really disappointed with "police Scotland" and how they are doing there. Health and the NHS - very poor indeed.

Yet I say I would vote for them again, and I would. Because I think they are doing better than any of the alternatives would, and I think that they would continue to be a preferable option in the future. In order to actually do a good job, they need Independence from the UK and for Scotland to be a forward-thinking outward-looking member of a much-improved EU.

There is a malignancy in modern politics and it is the continued delusion that you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Our public services are anything but world class, yet they cost us a fortune. We have a lot of old, ill, needy people to support and we're going to need to get pretty creative in terms of how we do increase tax revenues. That is going to be very difficult indeed in "Brexit Britain" as our chums down South "take their country back" and make it ever more difficult for us to get people into Scotland to help chuck more tax into the pot.

I think I am agreeing with the point above PB, albeit I am coming at it from a difficult angle.

How exactly do people like myself hold them to account? I am critical of them everywhere I can be, but I won't go as far as vote for someone who I think will do an inferior job.

[grunt]

Things have got worse in health and education under the SNP's watch. By their measures. They need to own that and take responsibility. The fact that it might be just as bad or worse in Cardiff or Coventry doesn't really matter.This is where I beg to differ. I think this is absolutely crucial to the question of SNP performance.

All around the UK public services are struggling due to central Government cutbacks. Austerity has had an appalling effect on the services available to children, the sick, pensioners, and those out of work or on benefits. I can't understand how the UK is struggling quite so badly but that's a question for another thread.

My view is that despite this, the Scottish Government under the watch of the SNP are doing better in the provision of public services than any other devolved Government and better than England & Wales. It is not perfect, far from it. But I think they are doing better than their peer Governments. I'm sure there are statistics that show this, just as there will be statistics that show the opposite.

[marinello59]

As long as independence, or another referendum on independence, remains almost within touching distance there will be no real critique of SNP performance from their own core support. Ultimately the core support are those who have to hold any party to account.

'Judge us on education' or whatever is just an empty phrase to the extent that as long as people believe Nicola Sturgeon can deliver the raison d'etre then almost every other issue is redundant. The opposition parties need to shoulder a chunk of the blame because for the best part of a decade there hasn't been an opposition worth talking about.

Spot on. Again

[johnbc70]

If people are dissatisfied with the SNP, vote them out.

They do, time and time again keep getting re-elected.

J

But lots of people vote SNP as its a vote for Independence. Schools could all be closed and the hospitals privatised but as long as SNP was promising Independence they would still get votes.

A lot of people cannot separate the two, which to be fair is what the SNP want and why they have got into the mess they are in on things like Health and Education.

[cabbageandribs1875]

best wishes to Shona Robison, she's been through a lot in her personal life the last year :agree:

[RyeSloan]

As long as independence, or another referendum on independence, remains almost within touching distance there will be no real critique of SNP performance from their own core support. Ultimately the core support are those who have to hold any party to account.

'Judge us on education' or whatever is just an empty phrase to the extent that as long as people believe Nicola Sturgeon can deliver the raison d'etre then almost every other issue is redundant. The opposition parties need to shoulder a chunk of the blame because for the best part of a decade there hasn't been an opposition worth talking about.

You can’t get an opposition without support at the polls.

We’ve already seen on this thread that the SNP will get votes pretty much no matter what their performance is as the ruling party...hardly a recipe for them to be held to account.

Then add in the pathological dislike of anything Tory and the urban myth that Scotland is some sort of left wing socialist bastion that could never be Tory (obviously created by folk that didn’t live in the 50’s)

Finally add a dash of really pathetic Scottish Labour and you get a rather weak opposition and a government that can put its own political and separatist agenda ahead of anything else.

[weecounty hibby]

But lots of people vote SNP as its a vote for Independence. Schools could all be closed and the hospitals privatised but as long as SNP was promising Independence they would still get votes.

A lot of people cannot separate the two, which to be fair is what the SNP want and why they have got into the mess they are in on things like Health and Education.

There is that and I've stated my position on it. But you shouldn't let yourself get carried away with the schools closing and hospitals privatised bit. The big issue is that the opposition are poor and don't really have policies that make SNP supporters want to change their minds. All the rhetoric in the world that is being spouted on here about some kind of socialist utopia when Leonard and Corbyn get in power won't help them either

[RyeSloan]

Out of interest, can you point to any Government department anywhere in any part of the UK which is managing its function well? I'm just wondering if there's anyone out there that meets your standards. Serious question.

Now you are talking my language [emoji23]

Yet despite this people seem to demand more government regardless of the fact that often it’s perfectly clear they are frequently inept.

Maybe more free stuff or more strategies or more ‘record investment’ is the answer? [emoji13]

[weecounty hibby]

But lots of people vote SNP as its a vote for Independence. Schools could all be closed and the hospitals privatised but as long as SNP was promising Independence they would still get votes.

A lot of people cannot separate the two, which to be fair is what the SNP want and why they have got into the mess they are in on things like Health and Education.

Another thing. What's the reason for the mess that the UK govt has made of health and education. It seems to be pretty much agreed that they aren't performing well in these either

[Tornadoes70]

The Snp are undoubtedly a complete shambles as a party in governance. Sturgeon is not a leader of a country and has it appears lost control of her party as sections of it aggressively push for her to call for a second separation vote .She may have been a decent lawyer but she certainly does not inspire, excite or stimulate folk. Their whole Snp mantra is wrapped around separation and it is failing Scotland and its folk in the here and now. Separation itself if ever it did come around would cause untold misery and despair for generations as Greek style meltdown would inevitably occur causing huge swathes of poverty not seen for many years here in Scotland among numerous many other volatile reactions arising from it.

What we desperately need is not the ever doom and gloom from the Snp nationalists of tales of how every other party anywhere else is just as bad or even worse than the failed Snp.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour are working extraordinarily hard to not only hold the Snp to account but are also listening to Scottish folk all around the country who want socialism here in Scotland in absence of separating off from the rest of the UK.

Folk are growing ever more tired of Sturgeon's failed Snp and will find a resurgent energised and engaged Scottish Labour Party if they are willing to have a look over at us and give us the opportunity of running the country with real socialist ideals not only here in Scotland but across the UK.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[marinello59]

There is that and I've stated my position on it. But you shouldn't let yourself get carried away with the schools closing and hospitals privatised bit. The big issue is that the opposition are poor and don't really have policies that make SNP supporters want to change their minds. All the rhetoric in the world that is being spouted on here about some kind of socialist utopia when Leonard and Corbyn get in power won't help them either

No. The big issue is that the people making decisions , the SNP Goverment are poor.
I’ve supported Independence for most of my adult life. I still do. The SNP are failing Scotland.

[Mibbes Aye]

This is where I beg to differ. I think this is absolutely crucial to the question of SNP performance.

All around the UK public services are struggling due to central Government cutbacks. Austerity has had an appalling effect on the services available to children, the sick, pensioners, and those out of work or on benefits. I can't understand how the UK is struggling quite so badly but that's a question for another thread.

My view is that despite this, the Scottish Government under the watch of the SNP are doing better in the provision of public services than any other devolved Government and better than England & Wales. It is not perfect, far from it. But I think they are doing better than their peer Governments. I'm sure there are statistics that show this, just as there will be statistics that show the opposite.

Apples and oranges?

Firstly, the arrangements for health and social care are different between England and Scotland.

I would repeat the point that Scotland is two years behind the tide in public sector cuts. We've got pain to come,

[stoneyburn hibs]

The Snp are undoubtedly a complete shambles as a party in governance. Sturgeon is not a leader of a country and has it appears lost control of her party as sections of it aggressively push for her to call for a second separation vote .She may have been a decent lawyer but she certainly does not inspire, excite or stimulate folk. Their whole Snp mantra is wrapped around separation and it is failing Scotland and its folk in the here and now. Separation itself if ever it did come around would cause untold misery and despair for generations as Greek style meltdown would inevitably occur causing huge swathes of poverty not seen for many years here in Scotland among numerous many other volatile reactions arising from it.

What we desperately need is not the ever doom and gloom from the Snp nationalists of tales of how every other party anywhere else is just as bad or even worse than the failed Snp.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour are working extraordinarily hard to not only hold the Snp to account but are also listening to Scottish folk all around the country who want socialism here in Scotland in absence of separating off from the rest of the UK.

Folk are growing ever more tired of Sturgeon's failed Snp and will find a resurgent energised and engaged Scottish Labour Party if they are willing to have a look over at us and give us the opportunity of running the country with real socialist ideals not only here in Scotland but across the UK.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

I suppose if you keep repeating it then you may actually believe it.

[weecounty hibby]

No. The big issue is that the people making decisions , the SNP Goverment are poor.
I’ve supported Indepndence for most of my adult life. I still do. The SNP are failing Scotland.

Yeah, honestly I do get what your saying and certainly in the last couple of years they have been a disappointment. But could you honestly say that any of the other parties have any policies that would be any better? I've not seen any and the post above yours really says it all for the Labour party.

[grunt]

I would repeat the point that Scotland is two years behind the tide in public sector cuts. We've got pain to come,
How is this the case? I'm not sure I understand.

[grunt]

Firstly, the arrangements for health and social care are different between England and Scotland.
The arrangements may be different but isn't that due to how they are managed? And regardless of the arrangements, how do they compare in measurable terms?

[Mibbes Aye]

How is this the case? I'm not sure I understand.

The monies that Scottish Government receive from UK government don't immediately reflect adjustments in the funding formula. There's a lag, meaning the impact is delayed.

[grunt]

The monies that Scottish Government receive from UK government don't immediately reflect adjustments in the funding formula. There's a lag, meaning the impact is delayed.
Seems like they've agreed a good deal then.

[Mibbes Aye]

The arrangements may be different but isn't that due to how they are managed? And regardless of the arrangements, how do they compare in measurable terms?

No, you have different management arrangements in terms of charging for social care, for example.

Also in England, health have far more of a lead in commissioning and decision-making about social care. In Scotland that sits with the local authority, or since 2016, integration authorities

[ronaldo7]

The arrangements may be different but isn't that due to how they are managed? And regardless of the arrangements, how do they compare in measurable terms?

Constantly out performing labour in Wales, and the Tories in England is not allowed.

They SNP *******s are doing it deliberately.

[Mibbes Aye]

Seems like they've agreed a good deal then.

:dunno:

It's a lag. Scotland has to deal with the hit in the next couple of years. It's not going to go away.

Robison wasn't dealing with it hence her departure.

[ronaldo7]

best wishes to Shona Robison, she's been through a lot in her personal life the last year :agree:

Most folk would have crumbled. Her and her family deserve a rest, if only to grieve their loss.

[grunt]

No, you have different management arrangements in terms of charging for social care, for example.

Also in England, health have far more of a lead in commissioning and decision-making about social care. In Scotland that sits with the local authority, or since 2016, integration authorities

I’m obviously not making myself clear. Regardless of the management arrangements and the commissioning structures, how does the provision of the service actually compare?

If SNP have changed the management arrangements and the measurable quality of the services being delivered is better, then they’ve done well, no?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Constantly out performing labour in Wales, and the Tories in England is not allowed.

They SNP *******s are doing it deliberately.

So it's crap but it's not as crap as England and Wales.

Good to know what your benchmark is.

Which is, it's okay to have a crap health service in Scotland, so as long as it's not quite as bad as England or Wales.

Both of which are terrible, I'll freely admit.

[grunt]

Robison wasn't dealing with it hence her departure.

I thought she’d gone because of pressures in her private life. Perhaps you know more than was written in her resignation letter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[grunt]

So it's crap but it's not as crap as England and Wales.

Good to know what your benchmark is.

Which is, it's okay to have a crap health service in Scotland, so as long as it's not quite as bad as England or Wales.

Both of which are terrible, I'll freely admit.

You see you’re very good at this, I’ll admit. You’re very believable.

But you’re twisting things. You’re criticising SNP for their performance but when it’s pointed out that it is better than elsewhere in the uk, you say, “well that’s a poor benchmark”.

We can’t win in an argument where you move the goalposts.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I’m obviously not making myself clear. Regardless of the management arrangements and the commissioning structures, how does the provision of the service actually compare?

If SNP have changed the management arrangements and the measurable quality of the services being delivered is better, then they’ve done well, no?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You're not making yourself clear. Your first sentence talks about disregarding management arrangements, then your second one highlights it :confused:

Anyways, point me to any metric that says healthcare has improved.

Any metric?

[ronaldo7]

So it's crap but it's not as crap as England and Wales.

Good to know what your benchmark is.

Which is, it's okay to have a crap health service in Scotland, so as long as it's not quite as bad as England or Wales.

Both of which are terrible, I'll freely admit.

I don't go along with your constant sniping and sneering of the SNHS. My family use it weekly, and get a great service thanks.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I thought she’d gone because of pressures in her private life. Perhaps you know more than was written in her resignation letter.


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While I don't doubt she has had personal difficulties, nobody in the world believes a ministers resignation letter...!

She has quite obviously been given the opportunity to resign by her mate. Jumped before being pushed, it's been on the cards for the last year.

[ronaldo7]

I thought she’d gone because of pressures in her private life. Perhaps you know more than was written in her resignation letter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Don't say that. It'll put a pin in MAs balloon.

The narrative must stand that she's been sacked.

[grunt]

You're not making yourself clear. Your first sentence talks about disregarding management arrangements, then your second one highlights it :confused:



Please try again, it makes sense to me.


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[Mibbes Aye]

You see you’re very good at this, I’ll admit. You’re very believable.

But you’re twisting things. You’re criticising SNP for their performance but when it’s pointed out that it is better than elsewhere in the uk, you say, “well that’s a poor benchmark”.

We can’t win in an argument where you move the goalposts.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Simple point though,

It's an SNP trope to say things are better in Scotland than they are in England or Wales.

That disguises the point that things are bad in Scotland, England and Wales.

Who is responsible for health care in Scotland?

[grunt]

Simple point though,

It's an SNP trope to say things are better in Scotland than they are in England or Wales.

That disguises the point that things are bad in Scotland, England and Wales.

Who is responsible for health care in Scotland?

:headbanger


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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't go along with your constant sniping and sneering of the SNHS. My family use it weekly, and get a great service thanks.

Today's report into NHS Lothian (released today, surely nobody was trying to bury it) would suggest there are problems.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't go along with your constant sniping and sneering of the SNHS. My family use it weekly, and get a great service thanks.

Sorry R7, you're not getting away with saying I snipe and sneer at the Scottish NHS.

Happy to own the fact that I don't think it is being managed effectively, hence Robison's long-waiting resignation.

Sturgeon has to take responsibility too though.

It was her portfolio for years and let's face it, no one thought Robison was running it for the last couple of years - if so, then the failings at NHS Lothian and NHS Tayside call into question why Sturgeon kept her in charge?

[Mibbes Aye]

:headbanger


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Useful comment

[Tornadoes70]

Sturgeon demonstrated extreme weakness when refusing to sack the hapless Shona Robison when she very obviously should have been dispatched some time ago. Its time for the inept and divisive Snp to be replaced by Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour in due course in any case. There's certain to be another sizable reduction in the share of Snp votes cast next time around and we at Scottish Labour are energised into increasing our share ergo seats as folk are very tired of the failed Snp with their separatist mantra and are set to turn to other parties instead with our Scottish Labour party primed to engage with the Scottish electorate.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[Hibrandenburg]

So it's crap but it's not as crap as England and Wales.

Good to know what your benchmark is.

Which is, it's okay to have a crap health service in Scotland, so as long as it's not quite as bad as England or Wales.

Both of which are terrible, I'll freely admit.

At a time where the Tories are mercilessly implementing policies of austerity, Brexit is looming on the horizon and we have a Labour opposition party that gives no opposition it's actually a miracle that a party can keep the country's head above water whilst having it's hands tied on fiscal policy. Scotland's devolved government can only try and counteract Westminster rule to a degree, they can't nullify them completely. That can only be achieved by full fiscal autonomy.

[grunt]

Useful comment

I’m accessing the site on Tapatalk and I can’t get the little images (emojis, I think?).

Your comment has just reverted to the point we were discussing 30 minutes ago, and my response was to be banging my head against a brick wall.

It seemed entirely appropriate to me.


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[Mibbes Aye]

At a time where the Tories are mercilessly implementing policies of austerity, Brexit is looming on the horizon and we have a Labour opposition party that gives no opposition it's actually a miracle that a party can keep the country's head above water whilst having it's hands tied on fiscal policy. Scotland's devolved government can only try and counteract Westminster rule to a degree, they can't nullify them completely. That can only be achieved by full fiscal autonomy.

That's got nothing to do with health metrics though.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's got nothing to do with health metrics though.

Of course it has. An independent Scotland could divert funds from areas that are not devolved to boost health care, Holyrood can't.

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m accessing the site on Tapatalk and I can’t get the little images (emojis, I think?).

Your comment has just reverted to the point we were discussing 30 minutes ago, and my response was to be banging my head against a brick wall.

It seemed entirely appropriate to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ah okay, that makes more sense, though I think we are destined to disagree regardless :greengrin

[grunt]

I’m accessing the site on Tapatalk and I can’t get the little images (emojis, I think?).

Your comment has just reverted to the point we were discussing 30 minutes ago, and my response was to be banging my head against a brick wall.

It seemed entirely appropriate to me.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkThis one :brickwall

[Mibbes Aye]

Of course it has. An independent Scotland could divert funds from areas that are not devolved to boost health care, Holyrood can't.

Such as?

The over-75 population in Scotland triples over the next twenty years.

Where are you going to divert money from?

[Hibrandenburg]

Such as?

The over-75 population in Scotland triples over the next twenty years.

Where are you going to divert money from?

The Trident programme spings to mind as one example. An expensive status symbol that most Scots would be happy without.

[speedy_gonzales]

The Trident programme spings to mind as one example. An expensive status symbol that most Scots would be happy without.
Perhaps getting slightly off topic but is that a fact?
I know me and my family are generally against weapons of MAD, Bairns not Bombs campaigners etc but there's a healthy amount of Scottish people I meet that aren't as vehemently against Trident/Faslane as you'd expect them to be.

Edited to add that when I say "me & my Family" are "generally" against, what I mean is the majority of us are against, not that we flip-flop in our opinion of such things.

[Mibbes Aye]

The Trident programme spings to mind as one example. An expensive status symbol that most Scots would be happy without.

You're ex-Forces aren't you?

Do you think the US, strategically, could afford to let Scotland go? I think there would be massive economic and political pressure to ensure we stayed in NATO and provide the bases to bridge the gap with Iceland for the sea channels through the Northern Atlantic.

Faslane is the Trident base for strategic reasons, they're not based in the Solent accidentally. It is almost certainly the case that it is in Scotland's economic interest to continue in NATO and to host the Trident subs, should there be an independence vote.

[speedy_gonzales]

I don't go along with your constant sniping and sneering of the SNHS. My family use it weekly, and get a great service thanks.
I agree, my experience of the NHS is brilliant. But to be honest, I don't use it overly so, my life so far hasn't depended on it and excepting my daughter who was born prem 15 years ago 'we' haven't utilised it too much.
I reckon most "average Joes" out there would think similar, cracking service free at the point of use.
However, it would seem that trends indicate our health service performance is going downwards, not holding steady and certainly not improving. Ever tightening budgets and age related illnesses will clearly be a massive factor but the governance/management of health trusts needs to be looked at at some point. I have family that work in the NHS but aren't frontline, more back office, their grievances are with policy and bureaucracy, not funding.

[Hibrandenburg]

You're ex-Forces aren't you?

Do you think the US, strategically, could afford to let Scotland go? I think there would be massive economic and political pressure to ensure we stayed in NATO and provide the bases to bridge the gap with Iceland for the sea channels through the Northern Atlantic.

Faslane is the Trident base for strategic reasons, they're not based in the Solent accidentally. It is almost certainly the case that it is in Scotland's economic interest to continue in NATO and to host the Trident subs, should there be an independence vote.

Denmark are in NATO, they don't have and don't want nukes and are none the worse off for it. Coincidently they also have a great health system.

[Hibrandenburg]

Perhaps getting slightly off topic but is that a fact?
I know me and my family are generally against weapons of MAD, Bairns not Bombs campaigners etc but there's a healthy amount of Scottish people I meet that aren't as vehemently against Trident/Faslane as you'd expect them to be.

Edited to add that when I say "me & my Family" are "generally" against, what I mean is the majority of us are against, not that we flip-flop in our opinion of such things.

Polls regularly show that Scotland doesn't want nuclear weapons, power or waste.

[Mibbes Aye]

Denmark are in NATO, they don't have and don't want nukes and are none the worse off for it. Coincidently they also have a great health system.

That didn't really answer my question.

And I'm guessing Denmark have a completely different taxation system to the UK or Scotland?

[RyeSloan]

At a time where the Tories are mercilessly implementing policies of austerity, Brexit is looming on the horizon and we have a Labour opposition party that gives no opposition it's actually a miracle that a party can keep the country's head above water whilst having it's hands tied on fiscal policy. Scotland's devolved government can only try and counteract Westminster rule to a degree, they can't nullify them completely. That can only be achieved by full fiscal autonomy.

Ahh the good old ‘if we only had more powers’ argument...even older than Brexit that one.

You’ve seen the numbers in the GC, is that the fiscal policy you crave?

The NHS will never have enough money, it’s a simple fact of life and summed up by Baumols cost disease.

The key to providing the service is not how much you spend (it’s always going to go up) but how well you spend it.

[johnbc70]

That didn't really answer my question.

And I'm guessing Denmark have a completely different taxation system to the UK or Scotland?

Denmark is one of the highest taxed places in the world. Income tax rates of over 60% for people earning more than approximately £41K.

[Hibrandenburg]

Denmark is one of the highest taxed places in the world. Income tax rates of over 60% for people earning more than approximately £41K.

Also one of the countries that regularly tops the polls in lifestyle. Interesting twist that so called socialists find fault with higher taxes leading to better services and citizen satisfaction.

[speedy_gonzales]

Polls regularly show that Scotland doesn't want nuclear weapons, power or waste.

Polls, depending on questions posed, can say many things.
I've just spent 1 minute in google, I googled "do scottish people want nuclear weapons", 2nd result was from "WhatScotlandthinks.org".

Within that site there's many polls, the site claims to be partisan.

Should the UK continue to have nuclear weapons? (http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-the-uk-continue-to-have-nuclear-weapons) More people think they should.

If Scotland became independent, should it continue to host Trident or not? (http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/if-scotland-became-independent-should-it-continue-to-host-trident-or-not) More people reckon we should continue to host.

Should Trident be scrapped or maintained? (http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-trident-be-scrapped-or-maintained#line) More people think it should be maintained.

For the sake of balance

Do you support or oppose the renewal of Trident? (http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-support-or-oppose-the-renewal-of-trident#line) More people oppose renewal.

A replacement for Trident would cost £65bn. Do you support or oppose the UK having nuclear weapons? (http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/a-replacement-for-trident-would-cost-65bn-do-you-support-or-oppose-the-uk-havin) More people oppose renewal.

My point is, you are entitled to an opinion, and your opinion is fair, but you can't speak for people you don't know and you certainly cant speak for a whole country. The fact that these polls contradict themselves is testament to that!

[weecounty hibby]

So it's crap but it's not as crap as England and Wales.

Good to know what your benchmark is.

Which is, it's okay to have a crap health service in Scotland, so as long as it's not quite as bad as England or Wales.

Both of which are terrible, I'll freely admit.

Here is my benchmark for the NHS. I've copied and paste this from another thread so ignore the bits when I'm talking to someone else

Glad to hear that. We can all get a bit fed up at times with the NHS but when you consider the amount of people treated each day by GPs, hospitals etc then I think they do a pretty amazing job. Me and my family have had cause to use them more than most as my daughter has a pretty rare condition and her care and treatment has been frankly fantastic. I was s pretty serious rugby player when younger and suffered a number of serious injuries, two of which required operations, and a number of broken bones that required treatment.
My son required hospital treatment on holiday in France two years ago and the care and attention he received there compared to the NHS was night and day with the NHS light years ahead. And it also cost me £1500 for his treatment.
All things considered, in general we get a pretty good service. As I say glad your sorted out and on the mend
And no I don't work for the NHS😀

To add to that I have had my daughter at A&E twice in the last ten days due to falling badly as balance is an issue for her. Both times in, seen, assessed, in one case x-rayed, treated and out again in less than two and a half hours.
So as I have said time after time. Could the govt be better on health? Of course they could. Does the NHS get things right in the vast majority of cases? I believe they do. Does the NHS in Scotland, England and Wales do a very good job, yes they do. Could they all do better? Yes they could.
So that's my benchmark, what's yours?

[ronaldo7]

Another thing. What's the reason for the mess that the UK govt has made of health and education. It seems to be pretty much agreed that they aren't performing well in these either

Hence the reason some wee English bairns are crossing the border to go to Scottish schools.

🏃 😂

[ronaldo7]

Sorry R7, you're not getting away with saying I snipe and sneer at the Scottish NHS.

Happy to own the fact that I don't think it is being managed effectively, hence Robison's long-waiting resignation.

Sturgeon has to take responsibility too though.

It was her portfolio for years and let's face it, no one thought Robison was running it for the last couple of years - if so, then the failings at NHS Lothian and NHS Tayside call into question why Sturgeon kept her in charge?

I'm afraid I am mate, it's what labour have been doing for months, (as they're entitled to)

I fully accept all countries Nhs are under pressure, and more so in England and Wales. Ageing demographic and creeping privatisation has a lot to do with that.

You're really clutching at straws though, when trying to suggest, the first minister is running the health service.

How are you getting along with the Royal Commission you've asked for?

[Bristolhibby]

I agree, my experience of the NHS is brilliant. But to be honest, I don't use it overly so, my life so far hasn't depended on it and excepting my daughter who was born prem 15 years ago 'we' haven't utilised it too much.
I reckon most "average Joes" out there would think similar, cracking service free at the point of use.
However, it would seem that trends indicate our health service performance is going downwards, not holding steady and certainly not improving. Ever tightening budgets and age related illnesses will clearly be a massive factor but the governance/management of health trusts needs to be looked at at some point. I have family that work in the NHS but aren't frontline, more back office, their grievances are with policy and bureaucracy, not funding.

My take on it is post Independence, the Realpolitik will kick in and we will have Nuclear Armed submarines continue to be in Faslane. Both British and American.

J

[One Day Soon]

At a time where the Tories are mercilessly implementing policies of austerity, Brexit is looming on the horizon and we have a Labour opposition party that gives no opposition it's actually a miracle that a party can keep the country's head above water whilst having it's hands tied on fiscal policy. Scotland's devolved government can only try and counteract Westminster rule to a degree, they can't nullify them completely. That can only be achieved by full fiscal autonomy.


What exactly do you mean by 'full fiscal autonomy'? As far as I am aware not even the SNP are now calling for that.

Incidentally the SNP's own Andrew Wilson in his Growth Commission report is calling for a further ten years of spending at current Tory levels - ie austerity - in a post independence context in order to reduce Scotland's structural deficit.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Denmark are in NATO, they don't have and don't want nukes and are none the worse off for it. Coincidently they also have a great health system.

I've always felt that to be a contradictory position.

We are anti-nuclear, but we want to stay part of a club that keeps us safe under their nuclear deterrent.

Obviously an independent Scotland wouldn't need to own nuclear weapons, but we presumably would need to continue to spend 2% of GDP on armed forces.

I would have no problem with Indy Scotland leasing out faslane to the UK or NATO.

And what does trident cost us anyway? Between 5 and 10 billion over 30 or 40 years? That would barely cover the amount the NHS says it needs now to stand still, and that whole amount doesn't even cover the health (not including social care) budget for one year at the moment.

[Moulin Yarns]

But lots of people vote SNP as its a vote for Independence. Schools could all be closed and the hospitals privatised but as long as SNP was promising Independence they would still get votes.

A lot of people cannot separate the two, which to be fair is what the SNP want and why they have got into the mess they are in on things like Health and Education.

School closures are the remit of Local Government. My local primary school will not now be replaced, pupils will be bused to Aberfeldy 20 minutes away, because the ruling Tory administration want to put all their eggs into one basket, centralised spending that benefits Perth and only Perth.


https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/perth-kinross/674712/budget-controversial-budget-plan-approved-despite-outcry/

[JeMeSouviens]

My take on it is post Independence, the Realpolitik will kick in and we will have Nuclear Armed submarines continue to be in Faslane. Both British and American.

J

I am opposed to nuclear weapons both in principle and for pragmatic reasons for the UK. However, the British establishment is hell bent on keeping them and has nowhere else to put their subs. As such, giving them a decade to get a new home ready is a very powerful bargaining chip and we should extract the absolute maximum from it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I've always felt that to be a contradictory position.

We are anti-nuclear, but we want to stay part of a club that keeps us safe under their nuclear deterrent.

Obviously an independent Scotland wouldn't need to own nuclear weapons, but we presumably would need to continue to spend 2% of GDP on armed forces.

I would have no problem with Indy Scotland leasing out faslane to the UK or NATO.

And what does trident cost us anyway? Between 5 and 10 billion over 30 or 40 years? That would barely cover the amount the NHS says it needs now to stand still, and that whole amount doesn't even cover the health (not including social care) budget for one year at the moment.

Almost none of NATO's small west European countries get anywhere near that commitment. Personally, I'd stay out of NATO altogether although I recognise that's a vote loser among a population conditioned to believe they're under threat.

[JeMeSouviens]

I find it difficult to comment on areas like health and education due to my own limited knowledge.

My personal experience of both (and my family has had numerous reasons to need them unfortunately) is fine and has not been any worse or better depending on who was in power at Holyrood. So statements laced with hyperbole like the services are "a shambles" or "utterly, utterly mismanaged" just don't chime with that. 4 of my extended family and in-laws work in the NHS (3 hospital docs, 1 nurse in GP practice), all voted yes in indyref for what that's worth.

On education, my younger child has just finished school and is heading to uni, he got the curriculum for excellence stuff. While I think it was rushed in a bit and put an excessive workload on teachers to get up and running, I think the basic premise behind it, that kids should be taught how to learn for themselves rather than being force fed facts to regurgitate on demand, is absolutely sound. It means the Scot gov is setting itself up to be on the end of a propaganda offensive every year the PISA scores are published (which measure only regurgitatable facts) but it should, in the long run, lead to a better educated society.

[Moulin Yarns]

What a bummer. The Scottish growth rate is double the UK for the first quarter of the year. 👍

[ronaldo7]

What a bummer. The Scottish growth rate is double the UK for the first quarter of the year. ��

Jings, Mair money for our Nhs staff. How will we achieve parity with the other Nhs staff in the UK? ��

Our NHS Scotland pay deal proposal released today is the highest NHS pay uplift being offered in the UK.

NHS staff who will receive the pay rise include all:
- Nurses
- Midwives
- Allied Health Professionals
- Paramedics

[One Day Soon]

Fax machine-tastic.

[RyeSloan]

What a bummer. The Scottish growth rate is double the UK for the first quarter of the year. [emoji106]

Is that 0.2% v 0.1%?

Hardly going to set the heather alight that...nor make up for the full 1% shortfall compared to U.K. growth last year nor indeed the shortfall compared to the U.K. that Scotland has suffered for the best part of a decade.

Not that I’m one for taking GDP figures too seriously but since you mentioned it...[emoji13]

[ronaldo7]

Fax machine-tastic.

Sshhhhhh

They're probably getting one off those too.

Don't tell anyone or Nicola will be accused of running BT as well. 📡

[ronaldo7]

Not seen anybody commenting on the reshuffle yet, I'm curious as to what our nationalist brethren have to say about it.

It looks like Robison, Brown and Constance have been told to resign or be fired, on the same day the SNP shelved their flagship piece of legislation on education, because Cosla and the unions said it was a shambles. And Humza Yousaf moved from the Transport portfolio where he made a car crash (no pun intended) of things.

A bunch of other junior ministers also got told to quit, including Maureen Watt, the minister with responsibility for mental health. That's fitting because in the 2000s Scotland led the way in progressive legislation relating to mental health. The ten-year national strategy launched last year is insipid though, lacking the detail that will drive improvement and change and far too much of a medical model.

Robison's departure is neatly accompanied by the publication of the independent report into falsification of waiting times in NHS Lothian. The health service in Scotland is in a shambles, NHS Lothian missing every target going, NHS Tayside using charitable donations to fund core costs. The accountability doesn't stop with Robison though, Sturgeone had the portfolio before her and as FM should be taking responsibility.

Now that the reshuffle is complete, I've got to say, the SNP second team are better than anything the opposition parties could muster, with the exception of the greens of course.

[snooky]

You're ex-Forces aren't you?

Do you think the US, strategically, could afford to let Scotland go? I think there would be massive economic and political pressure to ensure we stayed in NATO and provide the bases to bridge the gap with Iceland for the sea channels through the Northern Atlantic.

Faslane is the Trident base for strategic reasons, they're not based in the Solent accidentally. It is almost certainly the case that it is in Scotland's economic interest to continue in NATO and to host the Trident subs, should there be an independence vote.

True, however surely it's better that the peoples living in Scotland have the choice rather have it thrust upon them by folks afar.

[johnbc70]

True, however surely it's better that the peoples living in Scotland have the choice rather have it thrust upon them by folks afar.

Folks afar?

[marinello59]

Now that the reshuffle is complete, I've got to say, the SNP second team are better than anything the opposition parties could muster, with the exception of the greens of course.
Outstanding post. :faf:
One new minister managed to get sacked before she could take up her appointment. It must have escaped your attention. They probably hid the news right in front of that awkward growth commision report, you’d not notice it there. :wink:

[Glory Lurker]

Outstanding post. :faf:
One new minister managed to get sacked before she could take up her appointment. It must have escaped your attention. They probably hid the news right in front of that awkward growth commision report, you’d not notice it there. :wink:

And yet, despite this, R7’s statement still stands :na na:

[johnbc70]

And yet, despite this, R7’s statement still stands :na na:

Minus Gillian Martin of course?

[Tornadoes70]

Good to see in particular Scottish Labour and to some extent the Lib Dems vocally call out the disaster that is Sturgeon's Snp over the last couple of days.

Sturgeon's Snp has regrettably become beyond parody and has to go for the good of Scotland and its folk within. As I've said before Sturgeon may or may not have been a decent lawyer, however, she is never a leader of a country such as Scotland and has to be replaced by a strong leader of conviction who will govern for all of the folk of Scotland and one who is not solely seeking to separate Scotland off from the rest of the UK.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party are united and all of its members are working very hard behind the scenes by listening and engaging with all the parts of the Scottish electorate across the country and are busy holding the shambles that is the Snp to account.

We desperately need change at Holyrood and the Scottish Labour Party is in good shape and prepared to take over from the tired and failed Snp if the Scottish electorate will allow us the opportunity to.

Mon Scottish Labour!

[Moulin Yarns]

Good to see in particular Scottish Labour and to some extent the Lib Dems vocally call out the disaster that is Sturgeon's Snp over the last couple of days.

Sturgeon's Snp has regrettably become beyond parody and has to go for the good of Scotland and its folk within. As I've said before Sturgeon may or may not have been a decent lawyer, however, she is never a leader of a country such as Scotland and has to be replaced by a strong leader of conviction who will govern for all of the folk of Scotland and one who is not solely seeking to separate Scotland off from the rest of the UK.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party are united and all of its members are working very hard behind the scenes by listening and engaging with all the parts of the Scottish electorate across the country and are busy holding the shambles that is the Snp to account.

We desperately need change at Holyrood and the Scottish Labour Party is in good shape and prepared to take over from the tired and failed Snp if the Scottish electorate will allow us the opportunity to.

Mon Scottish Labour!

Thank goodness the Scottish Labour members are busy working hard behind the scenes. Wouldn't want them to be unemployed. It will give them plenty of practice to continue in opposition.

[weecounty hibby]

Minus Gillian Martin of course?

She is clearly a bit of an erse and rightly has been binned. It is amazing how many politicians have made idiotic posts on social media in their pasts.

[marinello59]

Now that the reshuffle is complete, I've got to say, the SNP second team are better than anything the opposition parties could muster, with the exception of the greens of course.


Good to see in particular Scottish Labour and to some extent the Lib Dems vocally call out the disaster that is Sturgeon's Snp over the last couple of days.

Sturgeon's Snp has regrettably become beyond parody and has to go for the good of Scotland and its folk within. As I've said before Sturgeon may or may not have been a decent lawyer, however, she is never a leader of a country such as Scotland and has to be replaced by a strong leader of conviction who will govern for all of the folk of Scotland and one who is not solely seeking to separate Scotland off from the rest of the UK.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party are united and all of its members are working very hard behind the scenes by listening and engaging with all the parts of the Scottish electorate across the country and are busy holding the shambles that is the Snp to account.

We desperately need change at Holyrood and the Scottish Labour Party is in good shape and prepared to take over from the tired and failed Snp if the Scottish electorate will allow us the opportunity to.

Mon Scottish Labour!

I think these two posts cancel each other out perfectly. :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

the Scottish Labour Party is in good shape and prepared to take over from the tired and failed Snp if the Scottish electorate will allow us the opportunity to.

Mon Scottish Labour!
And right there is your problem, the electorate don't think you are in good shape and look unlikely to allow you the opportunity. No matter how much you regurgitate your diatribes most people just don't believe you. You will not/cannot answer any questions on policies when asked and just continue to copy and paste total waffle. I am sure you won't see this as I think you have me on ignore for asking you too many questions

[One Day Soon]

I think these two posts cancel each other out perfectly. :greengrin

It's like a fax convention.

[johnbc70]

It's like a fax convention.

Are they same person....each others alter ego.

[RyeSloan]

Are they same person....each others alter ego.

That’s the most likely explanation for sure [emoji23][emoji1303]

[ronaldo7]

Outstanding post. :faf:
One new minister managed to get sacked before she could take up her appointment. It must have escaped your attention. They probably hid the news right in front of that awkward growth commision report, you’d not notice it there. :wink:

Some of the stuff that, Gillian wrote in her blog 11 years ago was deplorable, and some of it was aired a couple of years ago in the press for which she apologised.

My point stands, unless you want to point out which Msp's would do a better job than our second team.

Unless you like your representatives to have racist, or homophobic tendencies.

Sieg heil indeed.

[Tornadoes70]

Nationalist parties and nationalism in general attract and appeal to those of uber extreme views whether its the Snp or the Bnp. Nationalism itself is a fertile breeding ground for those with tendencies toward hate, dystopian control, oppression and division etc.

Mon Scottish Labour!

[grunt]

I am sure you won't see this as I think you have me on ignore for asking you too many questionsThanks for the reminder of this useful feature. I think I might utilise it.

[marinello59]

Some of the stuff that, Gillian wrote in her blog 11 years ago was deplorable, and some of it was aired a couple of years ago in the press for which she apologised.

My point stands, unless you want to point out which Msp's would do a better job than our second team.

Unless you like your representatives to have racist, or homophobic tendencies.

Sieg heil indeed.

I actually feel a bit of sympathy for her. In the age of social media there will be plenty of politicians who have had some ill thought out attempt at humour recorded for posterity.
As for your 'point' I do get that you think Nicola co are totally wonderful. Your devotion to your party is almost touching. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

I actually feel a bit of sympathy for her. In the age of social media there will be plenty of politicians who have had some ill thought out attempt at humour recorded for posterity.
As for your 'point' I do get that you think Nicola co are totally wonderful. Your devotion to your party is almost touching. :aok:

Your point about me thinking, Nicola and co are "totally wonderful", is neither here nor there, I'd just like you to point out the Msp's who are better.

You might struggle, so I'll give you a few for starters,

Edward mountain
James Kelly
Alex Cole Hamilton
Neil Finlay
Murdo Fraser

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[Moulin Yarns]

Your point about me thinking, Nicola and co are "totally wonderful", is neither here nor there, I'd just like you to point out the Msp's who are better.

You might struggle, so I'll give you a few for starters,

Edward mountain
James Kelly
Alex Cole Hamilton
Neil Finlay
Murdo Fraser

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂



I'll give you the following (5 a side team)

Mark Ruskell
Andy Wightman
John Finnie
Ross Greer
Patrick Harvie

Sub: Alison Johnstone

:flag:

[marinello59]

Your point about me thinking, Nicola and co are "totally wonderful", is neither here nor there, I'd just like you to point out the Msp's who are better.

You might struggle, so I'll give you a few for starters,

Edward mountain
James Kelly
Alex Cole Hamilton
Neil Finlay
Murdo Fraser

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


I don’t slavishly follow any political party, every single one of them has talented people and a fair amount of duds. I don’t really have any inclination to put any of them on a pedestal.

[Beefster]

As a lifelong supporter of the SNP you are 100% correct for me. I will keep voting SNP until the time that Scotland is an independent nation or Scottish Labour go back to their roots and support Scottish independence. Could the SNP government do better? Of course they could. Could Labour have done better when they were in power? Of course they could. The SNP vote for me and for the many of my friends who also vote that way is a means to an end, we want and firmly believe in an independent Scotland. Ironically probably 90% of us would vote Labour in an independent Scotland.

Fair play. I’d imagine that this is the position of a lot of ardent SNP supporters, no matter how hard they try to pretend it’s all because the SNP is amazing/talented/godlike.

[RyeSloan]

I actually feel a bit of sympathy for her. In the age of social media there will be plenty of politicians who have had some ill thought out attempt at humour recorded for posterity.
As for your 'point' I do get that you think Nicola co are totally wonderful. Your devotion to your party is almost touching. :aok:

Hmm when I first heard that the blog was a decade old I thought this was going to be another ridiculous PC thing about nothing.

But as her post was specifically about educational establishments and when reading the tone and content of the posts you have to say that it was pretty foul and 10’years ago or not I’m struggling to think why anyone would write stuff like that if that really wasn’t their underlying beliefs.

Still it brought about some more quality deflection from R7 so that made me laugh...seems the old fax machine is supplying instructions to tell everyone that as long as you are slightly less s**t that everyone else then that’s all just fine and dandy.

[ronaldo7]

I don’t slavishly follow any political party, every single one of them has talented people and a fair amount of duds. I don’t really have any inclination to put any of them on a pedestal.

Pedestals are for sports dudes.

Politicians on pedestals is just not cricket old boy.

[ronaldo7]

It's like a fax convention.


Are they same person....each others alter ego.


That’s the most likely explanation for sure [emoji23][emoji1303]


Ahh,

The BT triumvirate back in the saddle.

Bless.

[The Harp Awakes]

Good to see in particular Scottish Labour and to some extent the Lib Dems vocally call out the disaster that is Sturgeon's Snp over the last couple of days.

Sturgeon's Snp has regrettably become beyond parody and has to go for the good of Scotland and its folk within. As I've said before Sturgeon may or may not have been a decent lawyer, however, she is never a leader of a country such as Scotland and has to be replaced by a strong leader of conviction who will govern for all of the folk of Scotland and one who is not solely seeking to separate Scotland off from the rest of the UK.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party are united and all of its members are working very hard behind the scenes by listening and engaging with all the parts of the Scottish electorate across the country and are busy holding the shambles that is the Snp to account.

We desperately need change at Holyrood and the Scottish Labour Party is in good shape and prepared to take over from the tired and failed Snp if the Scottish electorate will allow us the opportunity to.

Mon Scottish Labour!

Whilst I admire your optimism, I'm afraid Scottish Labour is decades away from gaining back the Trust of the Scottish electorate. If they ever do.

Apart from being a total shambles over Brexit, few will forget the images during the 2014 referendum of prominent Labour politicians standing arm in arm with right wing Tories and business leaders in support of the Union. I'm sure many Labour 'No' voters would have detested that sight as well.

Whilst I certainly don't agree with everything the SNP says, does or has done, across the board the calibre of their MSPs and Ministers is light years ahead of anything in Scottish Labour.

The problem the SNP has is trying to manoeuvre a campaign for change (independence) whilst being in Government for so long. Their focus has to be on the here and now of running the country, which in the main, they have done competently during their period in office.

[marinello59]

Pedestals are for sports dudes.

Politicians on pedestals is just not cricket old boy.

:faf::faf::faf:

[ronaldo7]

Outstanding post. :faf:
One new minister managed to get sacked before she could take up her appointment. It must have escaped your attention. They probably hid the news right in front of that awkward growth commision report, you’d not notice it there. :wink:

As you've been banging on about this for a while, what's not to like about this...taken from the report.

Quality of governance & disciplined public finances
Long-term cross partisan strategy
Focus on innovation
Competitive location for international investment
Exploiting Scotland’s resource endowment sustainably
Export-orientation
Migration-friendly
Flexible labour markets combined with fair & progressive workplace & active employment policies including reducing the gender pay gap
Highly skilled workforce with transferable skills
Taxation for economic development; not competing as low tax location
Inclusive growth at the heart of the strategy
Quality of life as an asset and objective

Alternatively we could go on for the next 50 years looking for Labour to give us home rule or something like Federalism.:faf:

Whilst the Tories shaft us again, and again, and again.

The Growth commission report gives us a framework to work towards a better Scotland governed by the people, for the people.

[Slavers]

As you've been banging on about this for a while, what's not to like about this...taken from the report.

Quality of governance & disciplined public finances
Long-term cross partisan strategy
Focus on innovation
Competitive location for international investment
Exploiting Scotland’s resource endowment sustainably
Export-orientation
Migration-friendly
Flexible labour markets combined with fair & progressive workplace & active employment policies including reducing the gender pay gap
Highly skilled workforce with transferable skills
Taxation for economic development; not competing as low tax location
Inclusive growth at the heart of the strategy
Quality of life as an asset and objective

Alternatively we could go on for the next 50 years looking for Labour to give us home rule or something like Federalism.:faf:

Whilst the Tories shaft us again, and again, and again.

The Growth commission report gives us a framework to work towards a better Scotland governed by the people, for the people.

You are completely brainwashed and under mind control from the SNP.

[ronaldo7]

You are completely brainwashed and under mind control from the SNP.

Thanks for your input.:aok:

[johnbc70]

As you've been banging on about this for a while, what's not to like about this...taken from the report.

Quality of governance & disciplined public finances
Long-term cross partisan strategy
Focus on innovation
Competitive location for international investment
Exploiting Scotland’s resource endowment sustainably
Export-orientation
Migration-friendly
Flexible labour markets combined with fair & progressive workplace & active employment policies including reducing the gender pay gap
Highly skilled workforce with transferable skills
Taxation for economic development; not competing as low tax location
Inclusive growth at the heart of the strategy
Quality of life as an asset and objective

Alternatively we could go on for the next 50 years looking for Labour to give us home rule or something like Federalism.:faf:

Whilst the Tories shaft us again, and again, and again.

The Growth commission report gives us a framework to work towards a better Scotland governed by the people, for the people.

What exactly does something like 'focus on innovation' actually mean? It sounds great but what would the main changes be between a focus on innovation now and a focus on innovation in an independent Scotland? What would be the powers we don't have now that would allow us to focus on innovation in the future? Does it mean we are not doing it today, if not what's stopping us?

I can understand that having an independent Scotland gives us more levers and buttons to push, but for things like this what would it give us we can't already do?

[Tornadoes70]

Whilst I admire your optimism, I'm afraid Scottish Labour is decades away from gaining back the Trust of the Scottish electorate. If they ever do.

Apart from being a total shambles over Brexit, few will forget the images during the 2014 referendum of prominent Labour politicians standing arm in arm with right wing Tories and business leaders in support of the Union. I'm sure many Labour 'No' voters would have detested that sight as well.

Whilst I certainly don't agree with everything the SNP says, does or has done, across the board the calibre of their MSPs and Ministers is light years ahead of anything in Scottish Labour.

The problem the SNP has is trying to manoeuvre a campaign for change (independence) whilst being in Government for so long. Their focus has to be on the here and now of running the country, which in the main, they have done competently during their period in office.

Nonsense.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party are well equipped to take over from the failed and now beyond parody Snp.

The nationalist Snp unfortunately attract fascist tory like Gillian Martin's of the world who viciously vocally attacked the disabled and transgender communities among other disgusting foaming at the mouth diatribes.

Nationalism is a very nasty disease when attracting the Gillian Martins of the world and that's very unfortunately exactly what's been happening at the Snp as Sturgeon has lost control not just of her party but has failed Scotland and its folk within.

We at Scottish Labour will continue to fight for the disabled, the unemployed and other oppressed sections of society while growing the economy and spending responsibly.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[snooky]

:tumble: :dead:

[Tornadoes70]

What is Scottish Labour's current position on Brexit?

Attempting to deflect away from critical issues of topical here and now news of the shambles that is the Snp and the toxic Gillian Martin debacle?

Brexit is a very complex liquid issue and is being analysed by far greater brains at Labour than I am.

By the way that's the last time I answer a post that contains merely a question or set of questions that gives absolutely no indication of the poster's position or opinions.

What I can tell you for absolute certain is that we at Scottish Labour continue to fight for the disabled, elderly, unemployed and other potentially oppressed sections of the community while growing the economy, protecting pensions, fighting for social justice and spending the nation's purse wisely and responsibly

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[CropleyWasGod]

Attempting to deflect away from critical issues of topical here and now news of the shambles that is the Snp and the toxic Gillian Martin debacle?

Brexit is a very complex liquid issue and is being analysed by far greater brains at Labour than I am.

By the way that's the last time I answer a post that contains merely a question or set of questions that gives absolutely no indication of the poster's position or opinions.

What I can tell you for absolute certain is that we at Scottish Labour continue to fight for the disabled, elderly, unemployed and other potentially oppressed sections of the community while growing the economy, protecting pensions, fighting for social justice and spending the nation's purse wisely and responsibly

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

So, if a poster, who hasn't made up their mind how to vote, asks a question that will help in that decision, you will ignore them?

[Tornadoes70]

So, if a poster, who hasn't made up their mind how to vote, asks a question that will help in that decision, you will ignore them?

Especially you!

:agree:

You spend an immense amount of time on here correcting foik on many matters and I think most folk would agree you're a person who doesn't come across as undecided.

Here's a small bit of last advice from me to you personally as per Labour v Snp -

Labour - Very Good for Scotland.

Snp - Very Bad for Scotland.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[Moulin Yarns]

By the way that's the last time I answer a post that contains merely a question or set of questions that gives absolutely no indication of the poster's position or opinions.



WOW. Considering that is the first answer you have managed to offer in the past month at least I'm surprised you have to make that sort of statement.

But here goes for the umpteen time, where does the left wing saviour Richard Leonard stand on the basic income? Currently being trialed in a number of places in Scotland, as a result of proposals from the Scottish Green Party and implementation by the Scottish government.

[Moulin Yarns]

Especially you!

:agree:

You spend an immense amount of time on here correcting foik on many matters and I think most folk would agree you're a person who doesn't come across as undecided.

Here's a small bit of last advice from me to you personally as per Labour v Snp -

Labour - Very Good for Scotland.

Snp - Very Bad for Scotland.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:


DOUBLE WOW.

Personal insults will not endear you to people.

[CropleyWasGod]

Especially you!

:agree:

You spend an immense amount of time on here correcting foik on many matters and I think most folk would agree you're a person who doesn't come across as undecided.

Here's a small bit of last advice from me to you personally as per Labour v Snp -

Labour - Very Good for Scotland.

Snp - Very Bad for Scotland.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

I thank you for your advice, and will consider it when I am making my decision.

[snooky]

Attempting to deflect away from critical issues of topical here and now news of the shambles that is the Snp and the toxic Gillian Martin debacle?

Brexit is a very complex liquid issue and is being analysed by far greater brains at Labour than I am.

By the way that's the last time I answer a post that contains merely a question or set of questions that gives absolutely no indication of the poster's position or opinions.

What I can tell you for absolute certain is that we at Scottish Labour continue to fight for the disabled, elderly, unemployed and other potentially oppressed sections of the community while growing the economy, protecting pensions, fighting for social justice and spending the nation's purse wisely and responsibly

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

TBH, if I was an undecided voter, your posts would actually put me off voting for SLab rather than for them.
That's just my opinion though. Others may well take the opposite tack.

[Tornadoes70]

DOUBLE WOW.

Personal insults will not endear you to people.

There was no insult as anyone reading the post would see.

CropleyWasGod is very knowledgeable especially it seems related to financial matters and rightly factually puts these type matters into context.

However, when solely putting political questions its only fair that the questioner makes his own position known. It's very rare in my opinion for a blank canvass so to speak to seek only particular answers to particular questions without having firstly adopted some political persuasion.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[RyeSloan]

What exactly does something like 'focus on innovation' actually mean? It sounds great but what would be the main changes be between a focus on innovation now and a focus on innovation in an independent Scotland? What would be the powers we don't have now that would allow us to focus on innovation in the future? Does it mean we are not doing it today, if not what's stopping us?

I can understand that having an independent Scotland gives us more levers and buttons to push, but for things like this what would it give us we can't already do?

It means as much as ‘long term cross partisan strategy’....which of course just be another one to add to the current list of strategies (courtesy of the FoA Institute)

Economic Strategy
Digital Strategy
Energy Strategy
Circular Economy Strategy
Climate Change Plan
Trade and Investment Strategy
Labour Market Strategy
Social Enterprise Strategy
Hydro Nation Strategy
Strategy Action Plan for Women in Enterprise
Manufacturing Action Plan
Youth Employment Strategy
Innovation Action Plan
National Islands Plan
Agenda for Cities
Arctic Strategy


Oh and as you may see there is already an Innovation Action Plan so if you can find out what that actually is you may get an idea of what a ‘focus on innovation’ looks like when it’s morphs from a focus to a strategy to a plan...

[marinello59]

I thank you for your advice, and will consider it when I am making my decision.

Anybody but Labour then? :greengrin

[Tornadoes70]

TBH, if I was an undecided voter, your posts would actually put me off voting for SLab rather than for them.
That's just my opinion though. Others may well take the opposite tack.

I'm sure the odious Gillian Martin will agree with you on your 'unbiased' opinion.

We're busy arguing for social justice, protecting the disabled, unemployed, pensions, growing the economy, spending wisely and responsibly across all areas of government among many other vital ideals and policies and are preparing to take over from the tired and failed Snp come the next set of elections.

Scotland deserves a tolerant, competent, confident and outward looking socialist government with Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party in very good shape to deliver this.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[Moulin Yarns]

There was no insult as anyone reading the post would see.

CropleyWasGod is very knowledgeable especially it seems related to financial matters and rightly factually puts these type matters into context.

However, when solely putting political questions its only fair that the questioner makes his own position known. It's very rare in my opinion for a blank canvass so to speak to seek only particular answers to particular questions without having firstly adopted some political persuasion.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

And will you give me your opinion on the question I asked?

[Tornadoes70]

And will you give me your opinion on the question I asked?

I take it you lot have given up making a case for the failed Snp?

I'm busy rightfully making a case for a real socialist government to be installed at Holyrood in the form of Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party.

Make your own points (if you have any that is) and/or criticisms.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm sure the odious Gillian Martin will agree with you on your 'unbiased' opinion.

We're busy arguing for social justice, protecting the disabled, unemployed, pensions, growing the economy, spending wisely and responsibly across all areas of government among many other vital ideals and policies and are preparing to take over from the tired and failed Snp come the next set of elections.

Scotland deserves a tolerant, competent, confident and outward looking socialist government with Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party in very good shape to deliver this.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

I feel sorry for the Scottish Labour Party when people feel they are entitled to call themselves members for £3 a year.

I feel sorry for the Scottish Labour Party when they don't have the skills to properly debate points raised.

Debate is healthy but requires both sides to offer arguments in support of their point of view.

Repeatedly saying the same thing is not debate.

[Moulin Yarns]

I take it you lot have given up making a case for the failed Snp?

I'm busy rightfully making a case for a real socialist government to be installed at Holyrood in the form of Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party.

Make your own points (if you have any that is) and/or criticisms.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:


There are some on here know I am not an SNP voter. Will you please give a proper reply.

Of course the answer is you have not got any idea what labour party policy is on it.

[CropleyWasGod]

Anybody but Labour then? :greengrin

Hush your fascist, dystopian mouth.

[JeMeSouviens]

Attempting to deflect away from critical issues of topical here and now news of the shambles that is the Snp and the toxic Gillian Martin debacle?

Brexit is a very complex liquid issue and is being analysed by far greater brains at Labour than I am.

By the way that's the last time I answer a post that contains merely a question or set of questions that gives absolutely no indication of the poster's position or opinions.

What I can tell you for absolute certain is that we at Scottish Labour continue to fight for the disabled, elderly, unemployed and other potentially oppressed sections of the community while growing the economy, protecting pensions, fighting for social justice and spending the nation's purse wisely and responsibly

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

I've often thought you should just post "4 legs good, 2 legs bad" but actually you may have already moved to "4 legs good, 2 legs better". :wink:

[Tornadoes70]

Socialist Scottish Labour Party and to some extent the Lib Dems are on the path to severely reducing Snp nationalist numbers next time around and its only natural the Snp nationalists are feeling the heat and becoming ever more anxious and irritable and seem largely incapable of making a case for separation now.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party on the other hand are active in engaging the Scottish electorate across the country and are in very good shape when taking over from the failed Snp after the Scottish electorate has had the opportunity to severely reduce Snp numbers at Holyrood post the next elections.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[Moulin Yarns]

far greater brains at Labour than I am.



I find that difficult to believe.

[Moulin Yarns]

Socialist Scottish Labour Party and to some extent the Lib Dems are on the path to severely reducing Snp nationalist numbers next time around and its only natural the Snp nationalists are feeling the heat and becoming ever more anxious and irritable and seem largely incapable of making a case for separation now.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party on the other hand are active in engaging the Scottish electorate across the country and are in very good shape when taking over from the failed Snp after the Scottish electorate has had the opportunity to severely reduce Snp numbers at Holyrood post the next elections.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

Is that the answer to the question I asked?

Debating is not one of your strongest points.

[Tornadoes70]

I find that difficult to believe.

At least you're making your'e own point, erroneously or otherwise.

:thumbsup:

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[weecounty hibby]

Thanks for the reminder of this useful feature. I think I might utilise it.

Aw, cmon I'm not that bad surely. Feelings well and truly hurt😪

[weecounty hibby]

[QUOTE=lgnsh70;5447431

The nationalist Snp unfortunately attract fascist tory like Gillian Martin's of the world who viciously vocally attacked the disabled and transgender communities among other disgusting foaming at the mouth diatribes.

Nationalism is a very nasty disease when attracting the Gillian Martins of the world and that's very unfortunately exactly what's been happening at the Snp as Sturgeon has lost control not just of her party but has failed Scotland and its folk with

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:[/QUOTE]
Something you thought you'd never read from me but I agree with you to an extent on Gillian Martin's behaviour. Will you condemn the Labour party councillors who subjected Anas Sarwar to racial abuse. Something that Sarwar, a very senior member of Scottish Labour, still says has never been satisfactorily investigated?
Yeah yeah, I know you don't answer questions and I know you have me on ignore as I have asked you too many already. Martin is an idiot for her stupid views and even more stupid to putting them on line and thinking they will go away. But she is no better or worse than the Tory, Labour, Libdems etc who have similar views. But of course in your view the Labour guys will be ok.

[Glory Lurker]

Minus Gillian Martin of course?


That's what I meant - SNP can dump folk and still be better than the rest!

I should point out that I am trying to be light hearted! (In a still-being-right kind of way!)

[Moulin Yarns]

Socialist Scottish Labour Party and to some extent the Lib Dems are on the path to severely reducing Snp nationalist numbers next time around and its only natural the Snp nationalists are feeling the heat and becoming ever more anxious and irritable and seem largely incapable of making a case for separation now.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party on the other hand are active in engaging the Scottish electorate across the country and are in very good shape when taking over from the failed Snp after the Scottish electorate has had the opportunity to severely reduce Snp numbers at Holyrood post the next elections.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

I now know you are a comedian when you think that the libdems, the 5th party in Scotland, are a serious threat to the SNP.

[One Day Soon]

Delighted to hear that the SNP intend to bridge the gap in Scottish public spending post independence with a series of chapter headings.

Added to a series of improbable assumptions on growth, public sector savings and the irrelevance of the UK market to Scotland there's absolutely no need to explain why the Growth Commission's figures mean another ten years of austerity just to get back to where we are now.

Up next, the new Health Minister eliminates diabetes with a pamphlet collection.

[Just Alf]

Nationalist parties and nationalism in general attract and appeal to those of uber extreme views whether its the Snp or the Bnp. Nationalism itself is a fertile breeding ground for those with tendencies toward hate, dystopian control, oppression and division etc.

Mon Scottish Labour!

Having caught up on this thread, I've an observation to make .... you've lambasted folks for being SNP because you don't seem to like what they're saying when I know for a fact, at least one supports the same party you apparently do.... then I read the above, it really is starting to feel like your world view is so skewed from real life it's dangerous.

Mon Scottish Labour! (If they ever grow a set)


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Tornadoes70]

I now know you are a comedian when you think that the libdems, the 5th party in Scotland, are a serious threat to the SNP.

A comedian?

Do you think I find it funny arguing for Scotland's survival against a large group of separatists who it appears most of whom couldn't care less what happens to Scotland any post separation for its more a case for them that they use Scotland to break up the UK.

I've been a lifelong Hibs fan but when it comes to my country Scotland's future its a very serious business indeed.

Scottish Labour is the party for socialists who care about Scotland and it remaining viable and successful within the UK.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[Mon Dieu4]

I take it you lot have given up making a case for the failed Snp?

I'm busy rightfully making a case for a real socialist government to be installed at Holyrood in the form of Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party.

Make your own points (if you have any that is) and/or criticisms.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

Can you give me one example of a country where "real socialism" has actually worked and been a success?

[Just Alf]

A comedian?

Do you think I find it funny arguing for Scotland's survival against a large group of separatists who it appears most of whom couldn't care less what happens to Scotland any post separation for its more a case for them that they use Scotland to break up the UK.

I've been a lifelong Hibs fan but when it comes to my country Scotland's future its a very serious business indeed.

Scottish Labour is the party for socialists who care about Scotland and it remaining viable and successful within the UK.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:See!

Now you've just totally dropped yourself in it!

Folks (of all parties, think you're being a bit of a comedian (or troll)) because you NEVER actually put up any actual "arguments".

Your post is a complete contradiction.





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[johnbc70]

It means as much as ‘long term cross partisan strategy’....which of course just be another one to add to the current list of strategies (courtesy of the FoA Institute)

Economic Strategy
Digital Strategy
Energy Strategy
Circular Economy Strategy
Climate Change Plan
Trade and Investment Strategy
Labour Market Strategy
Social Enterprise Strategy
Hydro Nation Strategy
Strategy Action Plan for Women in Enterprise
Manufacturing Action Plan
Youth Employment Strategy
Innovation Action Plan
National Islands Plan
Agenda for Cities
Arctic Strategy


Oh and as you may see there is already an Innovation Action Plan so if you can find out what that actually is you may get an idea of what a ‘focus on innovation’ looks like when it’s morphs from a focus to a strategy to a plan...

So a load of soundbytes without much substance. Unless one of our resident SNP luvvies wants to tell us more?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A comedian?

Do you think I find it funny arguing for Scotland's survival against a large group of separatists who it appears most of whom couldn't care less what happens to Scotland any post separation for its more a case for them that they use Scotland to break up the UK.

I've been a lifelong Hibs fan but when it comes to my country Scotland's future its a very serious business indeed.

Scottish Labour is the party for socialists who care about Scotland and it remaining viable and successful within the UK.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:


I don't believe you are real - you are a troll.

And if you are not a troll, you are just myopic, discourteous and one of the worst debaters on here.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So a load of soundbytes without much substance. Unless one of our resident SNP luvvies what's to tell us more?

I'm far from an SNP Luvvie, but all govt do this. The irony is, they rely on outside interests to actually write these 'strategies because often, the civil servants don't have a clue, and those that do have a clue often have interests that are counter to these very strategies (Ie stasis, slow movement and absolutely no holding to account via objectives).

The SNP of course do it, but all govt in my experience do this.

It's one of the reasons I don't understand why so many people think more govt is the answer to so many problems.

[johnbc70]

I'm far from an SNP Luvvie, but all govt do this. The irony is, they rely on outside interests to actually write these 'strategies because often, the civil servants don't have a clue, and those that do have a clue often have interests that are counter to these very strategies (Ie stasis, slow movement and absolutely no holding to account via objectives).

The SNP of course do it, but all govt in my experience do this.

It's one of the reasons I don't understand why so many people think more govt is the answer to so many problems.

I get that, but in this particular example what does 'focus on innovation' actually mean in practice? What powers do we not have today that Independence gives us that allows this to happen?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I get that, but in this particular example what does 'focus on innovation' actually mean in practice? What powers do we not have today that Independence gives us that allows this to happen?

I suppose creative tax breaks are one - things such as the patent box, which was an unheralded success of Gordon Brown's govt.

But don't get me wrong, the Scottish govt resist lots of innovation for various reasons, often financial.

It's one of the harsh realities that Indy would bring- that promoting innovation in industry is another important expense that brings no votes or public recognition, and would in reality take money away from the services that govt want to spend cash on. The SG can largely leave it to the UK govt at the moment, although they do do stuff of their own too.

I actually would say it is one of the areas where the civil service are a brake on the SNP, or at least the Salmond era SNP, who absolutely understood the importance of being business friendly - civil servants less So, Sturgeons govt... not clear yet as she hasn't really laid out a clear vision one way or the other.

[ronaldo7]

Delighted to hear that the SNP intend to bridge the gap in Scottish public spending post independence with a series of chapter headings.

Added to a series of improbable assumptions on growth, public sector savings and the irrelevance of the UK market to Scotland there's absolutely no need to explain why the Growth Commission's figures mean another ten years of austerity just to get back to where we are now.

Up next, the new Health Minister eliminates diabetes with a pamphlet collection.

You've posted this up a few times now hoping that it becomes a .net fact.

Part B of the report p44

'Scotland should explicitly reject the austerity model pursued by the U.K. in recent years'

It also recommends above inflation spending growth each year.

You may not agree with the report but please don't misrepresent it.

You should read it some time. :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

You've posted this up a few times now hoping that it becomes a .net fact.

Part B of the report p44

'Scotland should explicitly reject the austerity model pursued by the U.K. in recent years'

It also recommends above inflation spending growth each year.

You may not agree with the report but please don't misrepresent it.

You should read it some time. :wink:

So, which do I believe?

a) A statement by current and former SNP MPs and MSPs that says Scotland should reject an austerity model, but with no real explanation as to how that's possible or

b) an analysis of the figures by the highly-respected IFS which says the report's findings mean another ten years (at least) of austerity.

Let's face it, that's not a .net fact, that's a real-life fact, out there with an IFS logo at the top :wink:

As for spending growth, the IFS found it would be less than the rest of the UK and would still represent austerity. So you seem to be happy to fight for leaving the UK, even though it leaves people and public services worse off as a consequence than the rest of the UK. As with the referendum, I think you'll find that's a price most don't want to pay.

[McD]

Socialist Scottish Labour Party and to some extent the Lib Dems are on the path to severely reducing Snp nationalist numbers next time around and its only natural the Snp nationalists are feeling the heat and becoming ever more anxious and irritable and seem largely incapable of making a case for separation now.

Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour Party on the other hand are active in engaging the Scottish electorate across the country and are in very good shape when taking over from the failed Snp after the Scottish electorate has had the opportunity to severely reduce Snp numbers at Holyrood post the next elections.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:



I think you genuinely have a handful of paragraphs that you just copy and paste into your posts.


I cant decide if you’ll be cockahoop if Scottish Labour manage to gain a few seats at the next election (and by that I mean a small number), or if you’ll have some kind of breakdown as they’ve not swept the board.

[marinello59]

Delighted to hear that the SNP intend to bridge the gap in Scottish public spending post independence with a series of chapter headings.

Added to a series of improbable assumptions on growth, public sector savings and the irrelevance of the UK market to Scotland there's absolutely no need to explain why the Growth Commission's figures mean another ten years of austerity just to get back to where we are now.

Up next, the new Health Minister eliminates diabetes with a pamphlet collection.

To be fair the report was far more than that so it's odd to see people on the Yes side reduce it to that level.Thats what happens when people put Party before everything else and it will see us lose the next referendum as well if that becomes the prevailing attitude.
What it should be seen as is the starting point of an honest debate about the costs and benefits of Scotland becoming Independent. That some would rather score cheap short term political points instead is deeply frustrating. It does nothing to win people over and we need to win quite a few to our side. Im fairly confident that isn't the case with the majority on the Yes side though.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think you genuinely have a handful of paragraphs that you just copy and paste into your posts.


I cant decide if you’ll be cockahoop if Scottish Labour manage to gain a few seats at the next election (and by that I mean a small number), or if you’ll have some kind of breakdown as they’ve not swept the board.

Considering there are still 3 years until the next Scottish Parliament elections I will be surprised if Ignsh70 is not leading Scottish Labour by then.

[johnbc70]

You've posted this up a few times now hoping that it becomes a .net fact.

Part B of the report p44

'Scotland should explicitly reject the austerity model pursued by the U.K. in recent years'

It also recommends above inflation spending growth each year.

You may not agree with the report but please don't misrepresent it.

You should read it some time. :wink:

I thought the Growth Commission report was also to bring a dose of realism to Independence. Admit it will be tough but it's worth it. Did you miss that memo? Or you still think everything will be awesome.

[Tornadoes70]

I don't believe you are real - you are a troll.

And if you are not a troll, you are just myopic, discourteous and one of the worst debaters on here.

This is complete nonsense. One of the worst posts I've read on here. I've long suspected you're one of these fake posters falsely arguing against posters who are of the same separatist views as yourself but pretend to have an opposing argument. Ridiculous post.

I'm one of the few on here who actually makes a straight down the line case for the party I have supported for many a year.

Some of us actually believe in what we're saying.

Social Justice - Dignity and Decent Benefits for Disabled Folk and the Unemployed - Protecting and Growing Pensions for the Elderly - Growing the Economy for all of the Folk of Scotland to Prosper and Live Well - Housing the Homeless - Ensuring Adequate Funding for our NHS among any number of our vital Socialist Ideals.

Strengthening socialist ideals and causes within the UK is where we should be uniting and not separating ourselves off from it for we would certainly become sooner or later a poverty stricken very bland powerless and voiceless region of the EU in doing so.

I personally just as Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour does care very deeply about Scotland and the folk within. Vote Snp and you'll see more of the likes of the Gillian Martin's being in power who will decimate benefits for the disabled and poorest in society as they blame them for their policies being fruitless.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[weecounty hibby]

This is complete nonsense. One of the worst posts I've read on here. I've long suspected you're one of these fake posters falsely arguing against posters who are of the same separatist views as yourself but pretend to have an opposing argument. Ridiculous post.

I'm one of the few on here who actually makes a straight down the line case for the party I have supported for many a year.

Some of us actually believe in what we're saying.

Social Justice - Dignity and Decent Benefits for Disabled Folk and the Unemployed - Protecting and Growing Pensions for the Elderly - Growing the Economy for all of the Folk of Scotland to Prosper and Live Well - Housing the Homeless - Ensuring Adequate Funding for our NHS among any number of our vital Socialist Ideals.

Strengthening socialist ideals and causes within the UK is where we should be uniting and not separating ourselves off from it for we would certainly become sooner or later a poverty stricken very bland powerless and voiceless region of the EU in doing so.

I personally just as Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour does care very deeply about Scotland and the folk within. Vote Snp and you'll see more of the likes of the Gillian Martin's being in power who will decimate benefits for the disabled and poorest in society as they blame them for their policies being fruitless.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

I feel it's ok to post this as lgnsh70 has me on ignore, but what a total moron.

[Tornadoes70]

I feel it's ok to post this as lgnsh70 has me on ignore, but what a total moron.

I didn't have you on ignore I was merely not going to respond to your posts openly as you're a person who reacts with personal insults.

I'm not even going to ask why you think socialism and caring for Scotland and its folk within is moronic.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[weecounty hibby]

I didn't have you on ignore I was merely not going to respond to your posts openly as you're a person who reacts with personal insults.

I'm not even going to ask why you think socialism and caring for Scotland and its folk within is moronic.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:
I don't think socialism or caring for people is moronic, I just think you are!

[Tornadoes70]

I don't think socialism or caring for people is moronic, I just think you are!


Okay!

I don't really care too much what folk think of me because its a serious business but you sound lost like you've latched onto something bad that you've been brainwashed into.

Socialism is a really good responsible anti greed anti right wing ideology that's also against uber left wing Hitler type nationalist warmongering. We're good folk who care deeply about other folk and their rights to freedom, justice, benefits, housing, NHS etc etc.

Join us not some separatist gillian martin uber dystopian type nightmare.

We care about freedoms and liberty while ensuring responsible capitalism for those who work hard to provide a better way of living.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

[snooky]

It's pleasing to know that we cover all ends of the spectrum on Hibsnet.
Now and again though, the ends of the spectrum can get a bit stretched. :coffee:

[grunt]

Aw, cmon I'm not that bad surely. Feelings well and truly hurt[emoji25]

Not you! [emoji3]


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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is complete nonsense. One of the worst posts I've read on here. I've long suspected you're one of these fake posters falsely arguing against posters who are of the same separatist views as yourself but pretend to have an opposing argument. Ridiculous post.

I'm one of the few on here who actually makes a straight down the line case for the party I have supported for many a year.

Some of us actually believe in what we're saying.

Social Justice - Dignity and Decent Benefits for Disabled Folk and the Unemployed - Protecting and Growing Pensions for the Elderly - Growing the Economy for all of the Folk of Scotland to Prosper and Live Well - Housing the Homeless - Ensuring Adequate Funding for our NHS among any number of our vital Socialist Ideals.

Strengthening socialist ideals and causes within the UK is where we should be uniting and not separating ourselves off from it for we would certainly become sooner or later a poverty stricken very bland powerless and voiceless region of the EU in doing so.

I personally just as Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour does care very deeply about Scotland and the folk within. Vote Snp and you'll see more of the likes of the Gillian Martin's being in power who will decimate benefits for the disabled and poorest in society as they blame them for their policies being fruitless.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:

Ok comrade 👍

[Moulin Yarns]

This is complete nonsense. One of the worst posts I've read on here. I've long suspected you're one of these fake posters falsely arguing against posters who are of the same separatist views as yourself but pretend to have an opposing argument. Ridiculous post.

I'm one of the few on here who actually makes a straight down the line case for the party I have supported for many a year.

Some of us actually believe in what we're saying.

Social Justice - Dignity and Decent Benefits for Disabled Folk and the Unemployed - Protecting and Growing Pensions for the Elderly - Growing the Economy for all of the Folk of Scotland to Prosper and Live Well - Housing the Homeless - Ensuring Adequate Funding for our NHS among any number of our vital Socialist Ideals.

Strengthening socialist ideals and causes within the UK is where we should be uniting and not separating ourselves off from it for we would certainly become sooner or later a poverty stricken very bland powerless and voiceless region of the EU in doing so.

I personally just as Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour does care very deeply about Scotland and the folk within. Vote Snp and you'll see more of the likes of the Gillian Martin's being in power who will decimate benefits for the disabled and poorest in society as they blame them for their policies being fruitless.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:


You will have to work a bit harder on the comedy routine before the fringe starts. But when someone heckles you, you need to have a better line in comebacks rather than repeating the same pish.