SNP nonsense

[Sir David Gray]

You reckon? I didn't see a 20 page thread when schools would reopen, eh na actually they won't in england

My partner, always thought the planning they were doing was the contingency rather the rule

Obviously hastened by the approaching holiday period

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It was a slight exaggeration on my part in terms of the number of pages but you can't be looking very hard if you honestly haven't seen a far bigger reaction on here to every negative story linked with the UK government in comparison with the reaction that a negative story about the Scottish government generates.

[lord bunberry]

Common sense has prevailed. Swinney has had a nightmare over this and in normal circumstances I would expect him to be considering his position or the decision being taken for him. I think he will be moved to another role when all this dies down.

[Callum_62]

Common sense has prevailed. Swinney has had a nightmare over this and in normal circumstances I would expect him to be considering his position or the decision being taken for him. I think he will be moved to another role when all this dies down.To be honest, I've never taken to Swinney

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[greenlex]

Agree with all of that. It's interesting also that after such an ultra-cautious approach throughout, Sturgeon has seen fit to take what must qualify as a bit of a safety gamble here.

I do, however, find it endlessly tiresome that opposition parties take such glee in proclaiming such policy changes as 'u-turns' - and that governments go to such pains to deny they have been influenced by opposition/public demand. I get that it's a kind-of follow-up stick with which to beat a government even when they have changed policy (ie to make them look weak and easily influenced) but for me it's the kind of thing that often makes politics look so childish - and creates a climate unconducive to cross-party co-operation. Is it really so hard for a government to say they've listened and learned (rather than tie themselves in knots trying to deny a policy change, like Swinney did today), or for an opposition to give them credit for doing so?
It’s not very often I agree with you but word for word here. I’d also add the togetherness in addressing this virus didn’t last too long as political point scoring resumes apace.

[Callum_62]

It’s not very often I agree with you but word for word here. I’d also add the togetherness in addressing this virus didn’t last too long as political point scoring resumes apace.Didn't keir starmer praise the tories today?

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[Callum_62]

No?

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1275401992609976320?s=19

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[G B Young]

No?

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1275401992609976320?s=19

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I'd certainly agree Starmer has made a better stab at the 'kinder, gentler politics' than Corbyn claimed to be ushering in before turning his party toxic.

Mind you, he's being accused of claiming the credit for Marcus Rashford's free school meals campaign :wink:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18520746.marcus-rashford-labour-take-credit-school-meal-u-turn/

[Mibbes Aye]

I'd certainly agree Starmer has made a better stab at the 'kinder, gentler politics' than Corbyn claimed to be ushering in before turning his party toxic.

Mind you, he's being accused of claiming the credit for Marcus Rashford's free school meals campaign :wink:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18520746.marcus-rashford-labour-take-credit-school-meal-u-turn/

That is an appallingly badly-written article, from the headline all the way down through the content. I have only ever read pieces from the National when linked on here. I find it hard to believe that a movement which has the support of a sizeable amount of the population cannot produce something more credible and sophisticated than that.

[Callum_62]

That is an appallingly badly-written article, from the headline all the way down through the content. I have only ever read pieces from the National when linked on here. I find it hard to believe that a movement which has the support of a sizeable amount of the population cannot produce something more credible and sophisticated than that.

What's so appalling about it?

I was expecting something akin to Phil Whats his name which I find impossible to read



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[Mibbes Aye]

What's so appalling about it?

I was expecting something akin to Phil Whats his name which I find impossible to read



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The headline is worded in a way that subtly suggests Rashford is criticising Labour, which he isn’t.

Then it claims there is some sort of furore about Labour taking credit, with a couple of random tweets as so-called evidence. Yet the Leader of the Opposition and the leader of the Labour Party (same person) is quoted twice, once for a tweet and once for what I assume is a statement, praising Rashford for making this an issue.

It is pretty tawdry really.

But you aren’t answering my query. If nearly half the country supports independence, why can’t they find more articulate people to argue their case? Or is it just easier to settle for tabloid-style stories that try and stoke the old resentment and grievance stuff. If so, that’s a tired trope and the sooner that nationalists learn that, the better for their cause.

For those of of us who remain to be convinced, going down the bitterness route and claiming Starmer is stealing Rashford’s thunder is appallingly pathetic.

[lord bunberry]

The headline is worded in a way that subtly suggests Rashford is criticising Labour, which he isn’t.

Then it claims there is some sort of furore about Labour taking credit, with a couple of random tweets as so-called evidence. Yet the Leader of the Opposition and the leader of the Labour Party (same person) is quoted twice, once for a tweet and once for what I assume is a statement, praising Rashford for making this an issue.

It is pretty tawdry really.

But you aren’t answering my query. If nearly half the country supports independence, why can’t they find more articulate people to argue their case? Or is it just easier to settle for tabloid-style stories that try and stoke the old resentment and grievance stuff. If so, that’s a tired trope and the sooner that nationalists learn that, the better for their cause.

For those of of us who remain to be convinced, going down the bitterness route and claiming Starmer is stealing Rashford’s thunder is appallingly pathetic.
Lots of independence supporters agree with your comments regarding The National, it hasn’t got a particularly large readership and it’s not universally popular. I gave up on it a long time ago as like all newspapers with a political agenda it twists everything to suit that agenda.

[hibsbollah]

I'd certainly agree Starmer has made a better stab at the 'kinder, gentler politics' than Corbyn claimed to be ushering in before turning his party toxic.

Mind you, he's being accused of claiming the credit for Marcus Rashford's free school meals campaign :wink:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18520746.marcus-rashford-labour-take-credit-school-meal-u-turn/

Well, Labour did call the vote on the subject, and then tweeted ‘yay! We did it’ or words to that effect when the Tories realised they were in trouble and might have lost if they hadn’t pulled it. I’d say Labour, the unions and charity groups that were calling for the policy to be scrapped were more than entitled to be pleased with themselves.

Your earlier point about u turns in a general sense was fair enough. But what happened this time wasn’t some magnanimous realisation from Baw Jaws that he had accidentally made a crap policy that Marcus Rashford had cleverly and helpfully spotted, as Tory backbenchers have been trying to make us believe. Johnson specifically refused to reconsider the policy the day before; he only changed his mind when he realised (Actually, it was probably Cummings that realised this) it wasn’t only the usual suspects that were up in arms. Spineless.

[Callum_62]

But you aren’t answering my query. If nearly half the country supports independence, why can’t they find more articulate people to argue their case?


Looks like its more than half the country if you follow the latest polls

I guess coming from where this movement has, its doing a pretty amazing job at self promotion regardless of your views of the national

I don't really follow or read it though but I'm assuming they are trying to compete on a market that is pretty much low vs low


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[G B Young]

That is an appallingly badly-written article, from the headline all the way down through the content. I have only ever read pieces from the National when linked on here. I find it hard to believe that a movement which has the support of a sizeable amount of the population cannot produce something more credible and sophisticated than that.

Now that Starmer has started to get his feet under the table a little bit (though I'm not yet sure the majority of the population could name the Labour leader) the National perhaps thinks it's time for a 'Starmer/Labour bashing' story lest the Scottish electorate start to consider him a more palatable option than Corbyn, who essentially did the National's job for them in alienating voters north of the border?

[Ozyhibby]

Now that Starmer has started to get his feet under the table a little bit (though I'm not yet sure the majority of the population could name the Labour leader) the National perhaps thinks it's time for a 'Starmer/Labour bashing' story lest the Scottish electorate start to consider him a more palatable option than Corbyn, who essentially did the National's job for them in alienating voters north of the border?

I doubt the snp have much to worry about from Scottish Labour. They are on the wrong side of the biggest issue in Scotland. The Tories might worry a bit about him though. He offers a more palatable vote for unionists.


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[G B Young]

Well, Labour did call the vote on the subject, and then tweeted ‘yay! We did it’ or words to that effect when the Tories realised they were in trouble and might have lost if they hadn’t pulled it. I’d say Labour, the unions and charity groups that were calling for the policy to be scrapped were more than entitled to be pleased with themselves.

Your earlier point about u turns in a general sense was fair enough. But what happened this time wasn’t some magnanimous realisation from Baw Jaws that he had accidentally made a crap policy that Marcus Rashford had cleverly and helpfully spotted, as Tory backbenchers have been trying to make us believe. Johnson specifically refused to reconsider the policy the day before; he only changed his mind when he realised (Actually, it was probably Cummings that realised this) it wasn’t only the usual suspects that were up in arms. Spineless.

The winking emoji was meant to signify I thought the National's story was a bit daft...

However the change of policy came about, I think my general point about u-turns still applies. It can't be healthy for a country if a government (Westminster or Holyrood) is reluctant to do the right thing because they know the 'screeching u-turn' headlines await them - or what when they do change tack they have to try to cover their tracks. I should have added that the media are very much complicit here too.

It's really just wishful thinking on my part that politicians across all parties might open their minds a bit more on these sort of issues instead of making point scoring/face-saving their main focus.

[hibsbollah]

The winking emoji was meant to signify I thought the National's story was a bit daft...

However the change of policy came about, I think my general point about u-turns still applies. It can't be healthy for a country if a government (Westminster or Holyrood) is reluctant to do the right thing because they know the 'screeching u-turn' headlines await them - or what when they do change tack they have to try to cover their tracks. I should have added that the media are very much complicit here too.

It's really just wishful thinking on my part that politicians across all parties might open their minds a bit more on these sort of issues instead of making point scoring/face-saving their main focus.

Sure. But it’s nothing to do with them being reluctant to do the right thing because of headlines. They were reluctant to change the policy full stop. If they wanted to save having to make the u turn, don’t draw up a policy thats going to leave over a million kids hungry over the summer! They knew the implications of the policy. I’m not going to concentrate my my sympathy on how unfair it is on the poor Tory Govt that they’re being criticised for making a U turn. I’m all for consensus politics when it’s necessary. But this is an occasion when you have to point out they are a bunch of charlatans and put the boot in when you can.

[marinello59]

I doubt the snp have much to worry about from Scottish Labour. They are on the wrong side of the biggest issue in Scotland. The Tories might worry a bit about him though. He offers a more palatable vote for unionists.


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There is a very high percentage of Labour voters who would vote for Independence. it’s not easy to win more over though when their entire political belief system is dismissed as unionist.

[JeMeSouviens]

That is an appallingly badly-written article, from the headline all the way down through the content. I have only ever read pieces from the National when linked on here. I find it hard to believe that a movement which has the support of a sizeable amount of the population cannot produce something more credible and sophisticated than that.

It's not "movement" produced - it's the same publisher as the Herald and Evening Times. They decided to ride both horses.

[JeMeSouviens]

There is a very high percentage of Labour voters who would vote for Independence. it’s not easy to win more over though when their entire political belief system is dismissed as unionist.

c35-40% in recent polling. But the overall Labour number is so low now, that that's not actually that many people. Still, every little helps.

Looked at the other way round - the Scot Lab hierarchy is still attempting to out-staunch the Tories in Unionism, when the pro-union 60-65% of their vote is only around 10-12% of the electorate. That seems a barking strategy. :confused:

[Tomsk]

c35-40% in recent polling. But the overall Labour number is so low now, that that's not actually that many people. Still, every little helps.

Looked at the other way round - the Scot Lab hierarchy is still attempting to out-staunch the Tories in Unionism, when the pro-union 60-65% of their vote is only around 10-12% of the electorate. That seems a barking strategy. :confused:


Serious question. If Labour adopts a pro-independence policy what then is the difference between Labour and SNP?

[TrinityHibs]

To coin a phrase, I will pay more attention to the organ grinder than the monkey.

The FM said it was a contingency plan so I believe it.

Don't get me wrong, JS is my MSP and I have time for him as a human being but don't really rate him as a politician.

Are you saying that Swinney decided unilaterally to implement one of the most important policies the Scottish Government had to bring forward? That just doesn’t make sense. We either have a government with no joined up thinking or the First Minister was aware of what he was going to say and only changed it to a contingency plan when the parents rightly reacted. Neither the organ grinder or the monkey has been on the top of their game here.

[CapitalGreen]

Serious question. If Labour adopts a pro-independence policy what then is the difference between Labour and SNP?

For one, a leader most people would recognise if they passed them in the street.

[JeMeSouviens]

Serious question. If Labour adopts a pro-independence policy what then is the difference between Labour and SNP?

There is plenty of room to the left of the SNP.

It would also probably be easier to fill some of that room with less opposition to indy. It looked like at one point some Lab types wanted to move to not opposing a ref2 for instance.

[hibsbollah]

Serious question. If Labour adopts a pro-independence policy what then is the difference between Labour and SNP?

Perceived administrative competence.

[G B Young]

I doubt the snp have much to worry about from Scottish Labour. They are on the wrong side of the biggest issue in Scotland. The Tories might worry a bit about him though. He offers a more palatable vote for unionists.


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They need to make the SNP worry about them though. For as long as Labour remain effectively wiped off the political map in Scotland they'll almost certainly never win another UK election. Hard to imagine Starmer isn't planning to address this issue (though as you suggest it may already be too late as Labour don't really appear to serve any purpose in Scotland any more).

[CropleyWasGod]

Serious question. If Labour adopts a pro-independence policy what then is the difference between Labour and SNP?

SNP have a broad range of policies which can be characterised as "left" or "right". Those policies on the right will be fair game for attack by SL.

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you saying that Swinney decided unilaterally to implement one of the most important policies the Scottish Government had to bring forward? That just doesn’t make sense. We either have a government with no joined up thinking or the First Minister was aware of what he was going to say and only changed it to a contingency plan when the parents rightly reacted. Neither the organ grinder or the monkey has been on the top of their game here.

I can't remember the exact date of the Covid-19 briefing when the FM clearly said the blended learning was a contingency plan, maybe the 12th, but if people don't want understand what that means, then they are the ones who don't want believe that the Scottish government is trying to protect the population, and doing the best possible job in extreme circumstances.


I noticed that the teaching unions are now objecting to the full opening of schools, the government can't win whatever they do.

[Tomsk]

There is plenty of room to the left of the SNP.

It would also probably be easier to fill some of that room with less opposition to indy. It looked like at one point some Lab types wanted to move to not opposing a ref2 for instance.

There's plenty of room to the left of Labour. With respect, I asked for differences not similarities.

[Tomsk]

Perceived administrative competence.


Which SNP has over Labour now.

I vote Labour. I don't vote for them because I believe they will be more competent in office than the SNP currently are - far from it.

[Ozyhibby]

Serious question. If Labour adopts a pro-independence policy what then is the difference between Labour and SNP?

With Corbyn there was a fair bit but with Starmer it’s likely to be not much.


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[Tomsk]

SNP have a broad range of policies which can be characterised as "left" or "right". Those policies on the right will be fair game for attack by SL.

For instance?

[lord bunberry]

Serious question. If Labour adopts a pro-independence policy what then is the difference between Labour and SNP?
Maybe not that much but it would leave Labour in a very strong position post independence.

[Mibbes Aye]

For instance?

It is in my contract on here that I am obliged to say ‘council tax freeze’. It might have finally been dropped, but for years and years it eroded public services that the most dependent and vulnerable relied upon, while disproportionately benefitting the better-off.

[CropleyWasGod]

For instance?

What MA said. :greengrin

It's been said often on here that the SNP are an amalgam of many different political views, all bound together by one over-arching philosophy, and that it may splinter in the event of independence.

When you have that, there are bound to be different factions within the party putting pressure on it to jump one way or another. Without getting into an argument about their politics, it's one of the major achievements of the SNP that they have been able to keep all those factions together..... and not be seen as "left" or "right".

[grunt]

It is in my contract on here that I am obliged to say ‘council tax freeze’. It might have finally been dropped, but for years and years it eroded public services that the most dependent and vulnerable relied upon, while disproportionately benefitting the better-off.
:greengrin

It's like meeting an old friend in the street, someone you haven't seen for ages and you thought had possibly died. But, when you least expect it, the old "Council tax freeze" gets to live another day! I was going to say welcome back, but that wouldn't be correct.

[hibsbollah]

Which SNP has over Labour now.

I vote Labour. I don't vote for them because I believe they will be more competent in office than the SNP currently are - far from it.

You’ve misunderstood :faf: I actually meant the other way round. I am also a Labour voter, but I also accept that Sturgeon is an accomplished politician, she seems to have an enviable degree of control over party discipline and in most instances they’ve been a competent Government. I vote the way I do despite Scottish Labour, not because of them.

[Mibbes Aye]

:greengrin

It's like meeting an old friend in the street, someone you haven't seen for ages and you thought had possibly died. But, when you least expect it, the old "Council tax freeze" gets to live another day! I was going to say welcome back, but that wouldn't be correct.

They don’t pay me if I don’t say it a certain minimum of times. PMs, that’s where your money is really going :agree:

[Mibbes Aye]

:greengrin

It's like meeting an old friend in the street, someone you haven't seen for ages and you thought had possibly died. But, when you least expect it, the old "Council tax freeze" gets to live another day! I was going to say welcome back, but that wouldn't be correct.

Being serious though, no one on here has ever offered one reason why a tax freeze that disproportionately benefits the better-off and results in cuts to services that the most marginalised and vulnerable depend on, is A GOOD THING!

Feel free to offer a reason.

Quick clue - buying electoral popularity doesn’t make it moral or right :wink:

[Jack]

Serious question. If Labour adopts a pro-independence policy what then is the difference between Labour and SNP?

Trust.

[Ozyhibby]

Being serious though, no one on here has ever offered one reason why a tax freeze that disproportionately benefits the better-off and results in cuts to services that the most marginalised and vulnerable depend on, is A GOOD THING!

Feel free to offer a reason.

Quick clue - buying electoral popularity doesn’t make it moral or right :wink:

Taxing people is a balancing act. If you take too much people will vote for someone else. In this case, the public obviously felt that council tax was too high and decided they didn’t want it getting any higher. If it’s still Labour policy to ramp up council tax then it’s a while before they can be taken seriously.


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[greenlex]

Didn't keir starmer praise the tories today?

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I was thinking more north of the border. See today’s exchanges for examples. Both the Tories and labour can’t wait to get stuck into the snp. I’m not a supporter of any of them but being in opposition at a time like this shouldn’t be about party politics. Unity in suppressing the virus is long gone. Possibly a direct result of the uk government doing their own thing and the four nation approach trashed in the process. They are not long in showing their colours.

[ronaldo7]

Taxing people is a balancing act. If you take too much people will vote for someone else. In this case, the public obviously felt that council tax was too high and decided they didn’t want it getting any higher. If it’s still Labour policy to ramp up council tax then it’s a while before they can be taken seriously.


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Up 62% during the labour years

Whilst screaming about the freeze when it was in introduced, about it being unfair, eventually the freeze was then lifted, labour councils then decided not to raise the tax.

If the SNP say white, labour will say black.

[marinello59]

Up 62% during the labour years

Whilst screaming about the freeze when it was in introduced, about it being unfair, eventually the freeze was then lifted, labour councils then decided not to raise the tax.

If the SNP say white, labour will say black.

The SNP could have stuck to their promise and replaced the council tax. I get that was difficult with a minority Government but it was still party policy when they had a majority and they bottled it.

Actually R, we have had this conversation several times. Could we make it more interesting by swapping sides for a while? :greengrin

[Tomsk]

What MA said. :greengrin

It's been said often on here that the SNP are an amalgam of many different political views, all bound together by one over-arching philosophy, and that it may splinter in the event of independence.

When you have that, there are bound to be different factions within the party putting pressure on it to jump one way or another. Without getting into an argument about their politics, it's one of the major achievements of the SNP that they have been able to keep all those factions together..... and not be seen as "left" or "right".

Labour were hardly trendsetters in expanding local democracy when they were in power. Both have been pretty ardent centralisers.

It's very surprising just how disciplined the SNP party machine has been when you consider just how many of their activists and supporters are neophytes. I personally know at least a dozen folk who were active in the Labour movement who are now members of SNP, remarkably replacing a certainty with an overriding certainty they once despised. Some of them are not exactly renowned for their patience. :greengrin

Anyhoo, other than a few minor differences in policy and presentation so far as I can see there is only one major difference between Labour and SNP these days - independence.

[Hibrandenburg]

Labour were hardly trendsetters in expanding local democracy when they were in power. Both have been pretty ardent centralisers.

It's very surprising just how disciplined the SNP party machine has been when you consider just how many of their activists and supporters are neophytes. I personally know at least a dozen folk who were active in the Labour movement who are now members of SNP, remarkably replacing a certainty with an overriding certainty they once despised. Some of them are not exactly renowned for their patience. :greengrin

Anyhoo, other than a few minor differences in policy and presentation so far as I can see there is only one major difference between Labour and SNP these days - independence.

Independence and independence. The SNP are completely independent and don't have to make compromises on their Scotland policies, labour have to get permission from head office before making policy.

[Tomsk]

Independence and independence. The SNP are completely independent and don't have to make compromises on their Scotland policies, labour have to get permission from head office before making policy.

Whatever.

[ronaldo7]

The SNP could have stuck to their promise and replaced the council tax. I get that was difficult with a minority Government but it was still party policy when they had a majority and they bottled it.

Actually R, we have had this conversation several times. Could we make it more interesting by swapping sides for a while? :greengrin

I'll let you go on the winning side for a while. 😁

I can go and sort out those labour councils. 👍

[lord bunberry]

Whatever.
It’s true though.

[marinello59]

I'll let you go on the winning side for a while. 😁

I can go and sort out those labour councils. 👍

:greengrin

[Smartie]

Labour were hardly trendsetters in expanding local democracy when they were in power. Both have been pretty ardent centralisers.

It's very surprising just how disciplined the SNP party machine has been when you consider just how many of their activists and supporters are neophytes. I personally know at least a dozen folk who were active in the Labour movement who are now members of SNP, remarkably replacing a certainty with an overriding certainty they once despised. Some of them are not exactly renowned for their patience. :greengrin

Anyhoo, other than a few minor differences in policy and presentation so far as I can see there is only one major difference between Labour and SNP these days - independence.

Independence has been the dominant subject in Scottish politics for some time.

I'm not saying I've changed my mind, or that I have necessarily cooled on the subject, but I have become far more conscious of the fact that rather than "yoon vs nat" being the great defining factor, I am increasingly aware that there seems to be a number of people who I agree with politically on just about everything before we veer off in different directions when it comes to independence.

Folk who are REALLY into the independence thing on both sides don't get that position.

[Hibrandenburg]

Whatever.

You ask a question, get an answer and then take the huff. Glad I took the time to indulge you :rolleyes:

[Curried]

They need to make the SNP worry about them though. For as long as Labour remain effectively wiped off the political map in Scotland they'll almost certainly never win another UK election. Hard to imagine Starmer isn't planning to address this issue (though as you suggest it may already be too late as Labour don't really appear to serve any purpose in Scotland any more).

Labour seats (or indeed SNP seats) in Scotland make no practical difference to the outcome of a general election at Westminster. Labour could have won every seat in Scotland at the last general election, and the result would still have been the same i.e. a Tory win. Labour are dead in Scotland, and the only way they can win at Westminster is my convincing enough voters in England to vote for them.

[James310]

I can't remember the exact date of the Covid-19 briefing when the FM clearly said the blended learning was a contingency plan, maybe the 12th, but if people don't want understand what that means, then they are the ones who don't want believe that the Scottish government is trying to protect the population, and doing the best possible job in extreme circumstances.


I noticed that the teaching unions are now objecting to the full opening of schools, the government can't win whatever they do.

Funny because I got letter this morning from Andy Gray who is the Chief Education Officer of Edinburgh council where he states the blended learning plan now becomes the contingency plan, because it was never the contingency plan to begin with, it was the plan.

Extract from the letter:

"You will be aware the Council had plans for a blended model of learning involving in-school and at home learning. These plans now become our contingency if the scientific and health advice changes"

It's also amazing how quickly the scientific and health advice moved in a matter of days from part time learning with 2M social distancing to full time learning and no social distancing.

[Bristolhibby]

Labour seats (or indeed SNP seats) in Scotland make no practical difference to the outcome of a general election at Westminster. Labour could have won every seat in Scotland at the last general election, and the result would still have been the same i.e. a Tory win. Labour are dead in Scotland, and the only way they can win at Westminster is my convincing enough voters in England to vote for them.

This is true. The New New Labour Renaissance will begin and end in England.

Scotland has does not have the numbers to add anything to Westminster. Perhaps an SNP coalition with Keir.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Labour seats (or indeed SNP seats) in Scotland make no practical difference to the outcome of a general election at Westminster. Labour could have won every seat in Scotland at the last general election, and the result would still have been the same i.e. a Tory win. Labour are dead in Scotland, and the only way they can win at Westminster is my convincing enough voters in England to vote for them.

The outcome is the same in terms of stopping a Tory majority but it would obviously make it easier to achieve a Lab majority without any need for SNP support if they won back seats in Scotland.

[G B Young]

Labour seats (or indeed SNP seats) in Scotland make no practical difference to the outcome of a general election at Westminster. Labour could have won every seat in Scotland at the last general election, and the result would still have been the same i.e. a Tory win. Labour are dead in Scotland, and the only way they can win at Westminster is my convincing enough voters in England to vote for them.

Scottish seats made a very significant practical difference in 2017. Without those 13 Tory seats Theresa May would not have been able to cobble together her majority pact with the DUP.

[Tomsk]

You ask a question, get an answer and then take the huff. Glad I took the time to indulge you :rolleyes:

For what's it's worth I read your post. I didn't think it added to my understanding, hence my one-word response. At the risk of finding myself accused of taking the huff again I'm not sure there's a great deal else to say.

Just for the record, I get the difference between a nationalist party whose raison d'etre is separation and what is in effect the branch of a party operating at a distance from where the big strategic and operational decisions are being reached. But it's a nuance, a layer. In the end it all comes back to independence.

What I'm driving at is: if the Labour Party raises its standard for independence why should I continue to vote for them when I can vote for the SNP, who allowing for a few wee policy tweaks here and there are fundamentally on the same progressive/slightly left-of-centre/social democratic/gradualist wavelength, a bit better (although this is debatable) at running things than Scottish Labour and have got an actual track record of planning and advocating for a separate Scotland?

Now, if it was the Tories who suddenly about turned and declared for independence then we would have a clear alternative as the SNP (at least in their current guise) and the Tories are miles apart politically, socially, fiscally.

[Moulin Yarns]

Funny because I got letter this morning from Andy Gray who is the Chief Education Officer of Edinburgh council where he states the blended learning plan now becomes the contingency plan, because it was never the contingency plan to begin with, it was the plan.

Extract from the letter:

"You will be aware the Council had plans for a blended model of learning involving in-school and at home learning. These plans now become our contingency if the scientific and health advice changes"

It's also amazing how quickly the scientific and health advice moved in a matter of days from part time learning with 2M social distancing to full time learning and no social distancing.

I'll believe the government over a local authority when it comes to decision making. Every local authority had different plans for blended learning.

[Hibrandenburg]

For what's it's worth I read your post. I didn't think it added to my understanding, hence my one-word response. At the risk of finding myself accused of taking the huff again I'm not sure there's a great deal else to say.

Just for the record, I get the difference between a nationalist party whose raison d'etre is separation and what is in effect the branch of a party operating at a distance from where the big strategic and operational decisions are being reached. But it's a nuance, a layer. In the end it all comes back to independence.

What I'm driving at is: if the Labour Party raises its standard for independence why should I continue to vote for them when I can vote for the SNP, who allowing for a few wee policy tweaks here and there are fundamentally on the same progressive/slightly left-of-centre/social democratic/gradualist wavelength, a bit better (although this is debatable) at running things than Scottish Labour and have got an actual track record of planning and advocating for a separate Scotland?

Now, if it was the Tories who suddenly about turned and declared for independence then we would have a clear alternative as the SNP (at least in their current guise) and the Tories are miles apart politically, socially, fiscally.

Ok point taken. Thanks for the reply.

[Tomsk]

Ok point taken. Thanks for the reply.

My apologies for being so curt.

[Curried]

Scottish seats made a very significant practical difference in 2017. Without those 13 Tory seats Theresa May would not have been able to cobble together her majority pact with the DUP.

Fair point…..Makes you wonder what might have happened in the 2017 General Election, had Labour’s branch manager (Kezia Dugdale) not been promoting strategic voting for Tories in the Borders and Highlands.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200625/496f8aaa06b2ba53565a7e70e6f57045.jpg
Wonder which of Scotland’s opposition parties put this up in Charlotte Square?


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200625/496f8aaa06b2ba53565a7e70e6f57045.jpg
Wonder which of Scotland’s opposition parties put this up in Charlotte Square?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-53179239

I was about to ask if anyone would own up to it.

[JimBHibees]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-53179239

I was about to ask if anyone would own up to it.

Ruth Davidson commenting that Scotland can do better politics, pot and kettle come to mind.

[G B Young]

Fair point…..Makes you wonder what might have happened in the 2017 General Election, had Labour’s branch manager (Kezia Dugdale) not been promoting strategic voting for Tories in the Borders and Highlands.

Pretty sure there have been a few other times when the Scottish electorate essentially held the balance of power. I'd have to read up on it (and I can't be ersed on such a hot day) but I think Churchill's return to power in the early 50s relied on Scottish votes, while Harold Wilson's Labour governments definitely squeezed over the line by tiny majorities thanks to Scottish seats.

[Ozyhibby]

Pretty sure there have been a few other times when the Scottish electorate essentially held the balance of power. I'd have to read up on it (and I can't be ersed on such a hot day) but I think Churchill's return to power in the early 50s relied on Scottish votes, while Harold Wilson's Labour governments definitely squeezed over the line by tiny majorities thanks to Scottish seats.

So 45 years since it happened? Not exactly a regular occurrence.


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[Keith_M]

Serious question. If Labour adopts a pro-independence policy what then is the difference between Labour and SNP?


I personally think that the SNP are nearer in policies to what the Liberals used to represent. More the middle ground than distinctly left or right.

It's a pragmatic approach that might appeal to some but not others.

[Keith_M]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200625/496f8aaa06b2ba53565a7e70e6f57045.jpg
Wonder which of Scotland’s opposition parties put this up in Charlotte Square?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What I find MOST offensive about that poster is their poor grasp of German.

For one thing, it's 'Frau' Sturgeon (not Herr), they missed the umlaut out of Führer (it's not Fuhrer)...

...plus the fact that she'd be Die Führerin (fem'), not Der Führer (masc').







Apart from that, it is pretty much how my missus talks

:wink:

[G B Young]

So 45 years since it happened? Not exactly a regular occurrence.


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As I originally pointed out in an earlier post it's just two years since Scottish seats made all the difference.

There may have been more occasions than I've mentioned, but the bottom line is I can't imagine Labour would seriously consider just writing off their chances of winning more than one seat in Scotland if they ever want to govern the UK again.

[Tomsk]

I personally think that the SNP are nearer in policies to what the Liberals used to represent. More the middle ground than distinctly left or right.

It's a pragmatic approach that might appeal to some but not others.


Was this when they were propping up Cameron and Osborne's austerity coalition government?

[Ozyhibby]

As I originally pointed out in an earlier post it's just two years since Scottish seats made all the difference.

There may have been more occasions than I've mentioned, but the bottom line is I can't imagine Labour would seriously consider just writing off their chances of winning more than one seat in Scotland if they ever want to govern the UK again.

Made a difference in that we got a govt that we didn’t vote for again?


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[Ozyhibby]

What I find MOST offensive about that poster is their poor grasp of German.

For one thing, it's 'Frau' Sturgeon (not Herr), they missed the umlaut out of Führer (it's not Fuhrer)...

...plus the fact that she'd be Die Führerin (fem'), not Der Führer (masc').







Apart from that, it is pretty much how my missus talks

:wink:

https://youtu.be/M3gNdGHsEIk


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[Keith_M]

Was this when they were propping up Cameron and Osborne's austerity coalition government?


Liberals, not the Lib-Dems.

I'm referring to the party of decades ago.

[Tomsk]

Liberals, not the Lib-Dems.

I'm referring to the party of decades ago.

That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Liberals or Lib Dems, the one chance they got to play with the big boys they ****ed it up.

[Keith_M]

That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Liberals or Lib Dems, the one chance they got to play with the big boys they ****ed it up.



What has any of that got to do with the point I was making?

:confused:

[Future17]

Former SNP councillor Lewis Ritchie charged with sexual offences and indecent communications.

He's now an independent representing the Leith Walk area.

[Bristolhibby]

What I find MOST offensive about that poster is their poor grasp of German.

For one thing, it's 'Frau' Sturgeon (not Herr), they missed the umlaut out of Führer (it's not Fuhrer)...

...plus the fact that she'd be Die Führerin (fem'), not Der Führer (masc').







Apart from that, it is pretty much how my missus talks

:wink:

Also the well tired trope that Germans = Fascist Nazis from World War Two sporting Hugo Boss designed black Deaths Head uniforms and Hitler moustaches.

When will Britain / England get over this frankly obsessive behaviour regarding “Ze Germans”?

J

[Ozyhibby]

I see the new tactic by Johnson is to always refer to the Scottish Government as the Scottish administration. From now on it’s likely all unionists will likely follow suit.


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[Keith_M]

I see the new tactic by Johnson is to always refer to the Scottish Government as the Scottish administration. From now on it’s likely all unionists will likely follow suit.


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Hardly surprising.

The Tories opposed devolution and the No campaign was run by Brian Monteith (Con). Their campaign group had such leading lights as Lord Fraser (Con) and Donald Findlay (****er).

[Glory Lurker]

I see the new tactic by Johnson is to always refer to the Scottish Government as the Scottish administration. From now on it’s likely all unionists will likely follow suit.


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Another one they like is "SNP government". It must be terrible being afflicted by The Cringe.

[degenerated]

Hardly surprising.

The Tories opposed devolution and the No campaign was run by Brian Monteith (Con). Their campaign group had such leading lights as Lord Fraser (Con) and Donald Findlay (****er).Jackson Carlaw was a prominent campaigner against devolution yet has had his snout in that particular trough ever since.

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[Future17]

Another one they like is "SNP government". It must be terrible being afflicted by The Cringe.

I've noticed an increase in this being used in the media recently, much more so than "Conservative Government". If I've noticed it, it's probably because it's become more frequent and more jarring (for wont of a better word).

[G B Young]

Hardly surprising.

The Tories opposed devolution and the No campaign was run by Brian Monteith (Con). Their campaign group had such leading lights as Lord Fraser (Con) and Donald Findlay (****er).

Season ticket holder at ER and until recently (I think) a Brexit Party MEP for the north-east of England.

[JeMeSouviens]

Season ticket holder at ER and until recently (I think) a Brexit Party MEP for the north-east of England.

Yeah, he was involved in some of the anti-Farmer agitations around the time Brian Kennedy was sniffing around, wasn't he?

Edit: or something like that, my timeline might not be quite right.

https://thehiblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/hands_on030298.jpg

[G B Young]

Yeah, he was involved in some of the anti-Farmer agitations around the time Brian Kennedy was sniffing around, wasn't he?

Edit: or something like that, my timeline might not be quite right.

https://thehiblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/hands_on030298.jpg

Yes that's him. Pretty well kent Tory Hibs-supporting politician and columnist down the years, along with the late John Gibson of the Evening News. I've never met him but another couple of Hibby journos I used to know said he was decent enough company. Another journalist who always seemed to be at the heart of anti-Farmer stuff was Simon Pia, who was also possibly part of the Hands On Hibs group though, I think, more of a leftie.

[weecounty hibby]

Yes that's him. Pretty well kent Tory Hibs-supporting politician and columnist down the years, along with the late John Gibson of the Evening News. I've never met him but another couple of Hibby journos I used to know said he was decent enough company. Another journalist who always seemed to be at the heart of anti-Farmer stuff was Simon Pia, who was also possibly part of the Hands On Hibs group though, I think, more of a leftie.
I went to a couple of the Hands on Hibs meetings and he was the main guy in them. He led the meetings and was definitely the main organiser.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200705/24f77311e9f4f8663b7161dbf2dbfd03.jpg
Things are looking good for next years Scottish elections.


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[Callum_62]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200705/24f77311e9f4f8663b7161dbf2dbfd03.jpg
Things are looking good for next years Scottish elections.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkPretty big news the indy vote being so high for so long

Does that still mean there is no appetite to have our say?

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[marinello59]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200705/24f77311e9f4f8663b7161dbf2dbfd03.jpg
Things are looking good for next years Scottish elections.


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Surely that depends on which party you support? :greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

Here we go!
Here we go!
Here we go!
Here we go!
Here we go!
Here we gooooooo!

[SHODAN]

This may well be peak SNP/Yes with things levelling off next year. Not by any means a cause for celebration yet.

[lapsedhibee]

This may well be peak SNP/Yes with things levelling off next year. Not by any means a cause for celebration yet.

What, once the Brexit dividends start flowing into Scotland? :dunno:

[HibernianJK]

This may well be peak SNP/Yes with things levelling off next year. Not by any means a cause for celebration yet.

On the other hand, it may not be...

[neil7908]

This may well be peak SNP/Yes with things levelling off next year. Not by any means a cause for celebration yet.

I think it's a crucial time. As other posters have mentioned, Brexit will be key. If by some miracle it turns out to be the economic boost we were promised, and COVID is largely gone, then I can see people wanting to get back to "normal" and not fancying any more upheaval.

If the much more likely scenario occurs that we get a disastrous no deal Brexit and the UK Govt continues to mismanage COVID and show itself to be out of touch, then I think a lot of the floating voters will become converts and we won't be far away from independence becoming a reality.

[marinello59]

I think it's a crucial time. As other posters have mentioned, Brexit will be key. If by some miracle it turns out to be the economic boost we were promised, and COVID is largely gone, then I can see people wanting to get back to "normal" and not fancying any more upheaval.

If the much more likely scenario occurs that we get a disastrous no deal Brexit and the UK Govt continues to mismanage COVID and show itself to be out of touch, then I think a lot of the floating voters will become converts and we won't be far away from independence becoming a reality.

Brexit doesn't need to be a resounding success. It just has to avoid being the total car crash that many have been predicting. When to comes to day to day life it probably won't make that dramatic a difference to most of us. We really can't count on Brexit to get this over the line at all.

[neil7908]

Brexit doesn't need to be a resounding success. It just has to avoid being the total car crash that many have been predicting. When to comes to day to day life it probably won't make that dramatic a difference to most of us. We really can't count on Brexit to get this over the line at all.

Your maybe right. My guess though is we will still be suffering economically from the impact of COVID, with many businesses still struggling. If a no deal Brexit comes along then this will only add more problems for businesses.

I think this UK Government will have a very hard time defending something in the current climate they have actively pursued that causes big job losses or price rises. All of which are pretty much inevitable with no deal.

[Jamesie]

Brexit doesn't need to be a resounding success. It just has to avoid being the total car crash that many have been predicting. When to comes to day to day life it probably won't make that dramatic a difference to most of us. We really can't count on Brexit to get this over the line at all.

This is exactly right in my view. In actual fact, the anti-Brexit campaigners have done a power of work in ensuring that it can never be as bad as it has been portrayed.

[Colr]

I think it's a crucial time. As other posters have mentioned, Brexit will be key. If by some miracle it turns out to be the economic boost we were promised, and COVID is largely gone, then I can see people wanting to get back to "normal" and not fancying any more upheaval.

If the much more likely scenario occurs that we get a disastrous no deal Brexit and the UK Govt continues to mismanage COVID and show itself to be out of touch, then I think a lot of the floating voters will become converts and we won't be far away from independence becoming a reality.

I think the response to both will high the importance of the currency issue.

It wasn’t properly thought through before and crises like these and 2008 should guide our consideration.

It’s the only real doubt that I have about independence, despite coming round to the idea over the last 4 years.

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53354933

Could this not potentially be seen as a good thing for Scottish education rather than an excuse to blame Brexit?

As Lochead states: "the money which currently pays for EU student fees, up to £19m a year, will be kept in the higher education sector and should lead to an increase in the number of students from Scotland getting a place at university."

The way the report reads, it was an obligation via EU law to provide free tuition to non-UK EU nationals rather than a magnanimous gesture. Am I wrong there? As far as I'm aware we don't give free tuition to English students and many of them still opt to study in Scotland.

[Future17]

Brexit doesn't need to be a resounding success. It just has to avoid being the total car crash that many have been predicting. When to comes to day to day life it probably won't make that dramatic a difference to most of us. We really can't count on Brexit to get this over the line at all.

I'd imagine that any negative day-to-day impact will be blamed on Covid and the true picture of Brexit will never be known, in an economic sense at least.

[overdrive]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53354933

Could this not potentially be seen as a good thing for Scottish education rather than an excuse to blame Brexit?

As Lochead states: "the money which currently pays for EU student fees, up to £19m a year, will be kept in the higher education sector and should lead to an increase in the number of students from Scotland getting a place at university."

The way the report reads, it was an obligation via EU law to provide free tuition to non-UK EU nationals rather than a magnanimous gesture. Am I wrong there? As far as I'm aware we don't give free tuition to English students and many of them still opt to study in Scotland.

Basically you can’t disadvantage students from other EU states but you can internally within an EU state, hence why non-RUK EU students got free tuition but English students are charged what they would be charged down south.

[G B Young]

Basically you can’t disadvantage students from other EU states but you can internally within an EU state, hence why non-RUK EU students got free tuition but English students are charged what they would be charged down south.

Yep, I get why English (and presumably Welsh and Northern Irish students) pay fees here, I was just suggesting that not having to subsidise non-UK EU students could be seen as a good thing for the Scottish education authorities (as well as opening up opportunities for Scottish students) rather than something the Scottish Government claims is being done "with a heavy heart" because of Brexit.

[danhibees1875]

Yep, I get why English (and presumably Welsh and Northern Irish students) pay fees here, I was just suggesting that not having to subsidise non-UK EU students could be seen as a good thing for the Scottish education authorities (as well as opening up opportunities for Scottish students) rather than something the Scottish Government claims is being done "with a heavy heart" because of Brexit.

All other countries in the UK paid tuition fees yeah. I think that's often overlooked by people who try to think of it as "anti-english" - it also ensures we're not simply flooded with applications I guess.

I think you've a point when considering just this aspect of it in isolation (I'm not sure if overall Brexit will result in lower grants and funding though?). It's also balanced against wanting to be a draw for people to come here from the EU to learn and then - hopefully - stay in the country.

[JeMeSouviens]

All other countries in the UK paid tuition fees yeah. I think that's often overlooked by people who try to think of it as "anti-english" - it also ensures we're not simply flooded with applications I guess.

I think you've a point when considering just this aspect of it in isolation (I'm not sure if overall Brexit will result in lower grants and funding though?). It's also balanced against wanting to be a draw for people to come here from the EU to learn and then - hopefully - stay in the country.

... and have reciprocal rights for our kids to go and study abroad and be treated the same as locals wherever that might be.

[danhibees1875]

... and have reciprocal rights for our kids to go and study abroad and be treated the same as locals wherever that might be.

Do we know what will change for people from the UK studying abroad?

I know countries have to offer the same to students from other EU countries, but I don't know if we're necessarily going to be in a worse position afterwards than before. It would seem more likely, but I'm not sure anything has been said/confirmed about it.

[marinello59]

... and have reciprocal rights for our kids to go and study abroad and be treated the same as locals wherever that might be.

I'm sure I saw somewhere that the number of Scots students who study at EU Universities was surprisingly small compared to the number who go to North American institutions. And also compared to the number of EU students who came here.
It's still not good to see opportunities lost though. Hopefully negotiations around ERASMUS go well, hopes are high as they are one of the less complicated issues to resolve. (I know, it's Boris and Co we are talking about so my optimism is probably misplaced. )

[JeMeSouviens]

Do we know what will change for people from the UK studying abroad?

I know countries have to offer the same to students from other EU countries, but I don't know if we're necessarily going to be in a worse position afterwards than before. It would seem more likely, but I'm not sure anything has been said/confirmed about it.

Our students won't have reciprocal rights any more, ie. they can't enroll at a foreign uni and be treated the same as a local.

The position re Erasmus is unclear afaik. I think that's different in that you remain enrolled at your home uni and exchange to a Euro one for a part of your course. I could be talking pants right enough, so happy to be corrected.

[Ozyhibby]

Personally I would allow foreign students to study here for free so long as they stay after their courses finish.


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[Ozyhibby]

I see there is a push to establish a second Yes party to try and pick up more list seats next year. I think this would be a massive mistake long term. The strength the SNP has is it is the only Independence Party.
It will be both votes SNP for me again next year.


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[wookie70]

I see there is a push to establish a second Yes party to try and pick up more list seats next year. I think this would be a massive mistake long term. The strength the SNP has is it is the only Independence Party.
It will be both votes SNP for me again next year.


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The Greens are a Yes party as far as I'm concerned. No need for a third though

[degenerated]

I see there is a push to establish a second Yes party to try and pick up more list seats next year. I think this would be a massive mistake long term. The strength the SNP has is it is the only Independence Party.
It will be both votes SNP for me again next year.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOn current polling the SNP would be lucky to get 1 list seat. Surely this would be to the detriment of the unionist parties rather than the snp.

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[JeMeSouviens]

On current polling the SNP would be lucky to get 1 list seat. Surely this would be to the detriment of the unionist parties rather than the snp.

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Because of a stellar performance in the constituencies. We have a (more or less) proportional parliament. In 2016 the SNP got 46% in constituencies, 42% on the list and 49% of the seats. They're slightly *over* represented.

The last thing the Indy movement needs to do is "game" they system, imo. Get a pro-Indy majority of votes and a pro-Indy majority of seats will inevitably follow. We should be proud of having a better parliament elected in a better way than Westminster is - not ape the worst bits of that place because it suits us in the short term.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Have to laugh at labour's james kelly greetin at pro indy votes going towards new pro indy parties as 'cheating' what a short memory he has, dugdale telling labour voters to vote for conservatives was utterly repugnant, was that 'cheating' as well kelly

[Tomsk]

Have to laugh at labour's james kelly greetin at pro indy votes going towards new pro indy parties as 'cheating' what a short memory he has, dugdale telling labour voters to vote for conservatives was utterly repugnant, was that 'cheating' as well kelly

It would have been, but she never did that. It's just a myth. All she did was observe that across most constituencies in Scotland it was a straight fight between Labour and SNP, and only in certain constituencies, in the Borders and Highlands, Labour was not at the race and it was between the Tories and SNP.

And by the way, so far as I know, James Kelly has said nothing on the matter one way or the other.

[JeMeSouviens]

It would have been, but she never did that. It's just a myth. All she did was observe that across most constituencies in Scotland it was a straight fight between Labour and SNP, and only in certain constituencies, in the Borders and Highlands, Labour was not at the race and it was between the Tories and SNP.

And by the way, so far as I know, James Kelly has said nothing on the matter one way or the other.

https://twitter.com/JamesKellyLab/status/1283315359295115264


This a strong article from
@KennyFarq in the Times. Setting up a pro-independence party to run solely on the Regional List in 2021 is blatant ploy to play the system. It is an insincere attempt to undermine the democratic process.

Fwiw, I agree with the first bit but not the second. I don't think it's insincere. Plenty of Yes-minded people actually seem to think the fact that Holyrood doesn't return bizarre lopsided results like Westminster fptp is a bad thing. :rolleyes:

[Tomsk]

https://twitter.com/JamesKellyLab/status/1283315359295115264


Fwiw, I agree with the first bit but not the second. I don't think it's insincere. Plenty of Yes-minded people actually seem to think the fact that Holyrood doesn't return bizarre lopsided results like Westminster fptp is a bad thing. :rolleyes:


I was referring to Kelly saying anything about voting for the Tories. Sorry for any confusion.

[JeMeSouviens]

I was referring to Kelly saying anything about voting for the Tories. Sorry for any confusion.

Ah, I see. Got my wires a bit crossed.

[Tomsk]

Ah, I see. Got my wires a bit crossed.

My fault.

Basically, I was wondering why Kelly should be held to account for something somebody else said - or, as in this instance, didn't say. :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

It would have been, but she never did that. It's just a myth. All she did was observe that across most constituencies in Scotland it was a straight fight between Labour and SNP, and only in certain constituencies, in the Borders and Highlands, Labour was not at the race and it was between the Tories and SNP.

And by the way, so far as I know, James Kelly has said nothing on the matter one way or the other.

a myth ? did kezia dugdale,the leader of scottish labour encourage scottish labour voters to vote for conservatives in 2017, yes or no

[degenerated]

Because of a stellar performance in the constituencies. We have a (more or less) proportional parliament. In 2016 the SNP got 46% in constituencies, 42% on the list and 49% of the seats. They're slightly *over* represented.

The last thing the Indy movement needs to do is "game" they system, imo. Get a pro-Indy majority of votes and a pro-Indy majority of seats will inevitably follow. We should be proud of having a better parliament elected in a better way than Westminster is - not ape the worst bits of that place because it suits us in the short term.It's not really gaming a system to decide to vote for someone to get something you want in a democratic election.

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[marinello59]

a myth ? did kezia dugdale,the leader of scottish labour encourage scottish labour voters to vote for conservatives in 2017, yes or no

No.
She didn’t.

[marinello59]

It's not really gaming a system to decide to vote for someone to get something you want in a democratic election.

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Setting up secondary parties to defeat the aims of proportional representation is gaming the system surely?

[degenerated]

Setting up secondary parties to defeat the aims of proportional representation is gaming the system surely?That would depend on their stance on issues in comparison to the SNPs surely.


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[marinello59]

That would depend on their stance on issues in comparison to the SNPs surely.


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We are talking about a party set up by someone with over 50 years SNP membership to hoover up list seats that the SNP can't win because of their more than likely overwhelming percentage share of the vote. How different do you think their stance will be? :greengrin

[Future17]

Setting up secondary parties to defeat the aims of proportional representation is gaming the system surely?

I can see the argument on both sides, but I'd imagine a large number of voters give their first vote to the party they think should run the country and their second vote to a party which represents issues which are important to them. For example, a large number of voters will give their second vote to the Greens based on environmental issues.

Given that the Greens back independence as well, if independence is a voter's most important issue, why is it "gaming the system" for that voter to be able to vote for this new party?

[Ozyhibby]

We are talking about a party set up by someone with over 50 years SNP membership to hoover up list seats that the SNP can't win because of their more than likely overwhelming percentage share of the vote. How different do you think their stance will be? :greengrin

I think it will start to become a rival party very quickly. It will likely want to try push for unilateral declaration of Independence, unofficial referendums etc.
Unity is the strength of the Yes movement against three unionist parties and this move could see that thrown away. Just now it’s list seats they are going for but how long before they stand someone in a constituency because they feel the incumbent SNP MSP is not radical enough for them?
I think the whole thing is a mistake but I’m pretty sure it’s going to happen anyway.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I see there is a push to establish a second Yes party to try and pick up more list seats next year. I think this would be a massive mistake long term. The strength the SNP has is it is the only Independence Party.
It will be both votes SNP for me again next year.


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The list system precludes a majority for on party, use your second vote for the other existing independence supporting party.

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1283352553040891904

[marinello59]

I can see the argument on both sides, but I'd imagine a large number of voters give their first vote to the party they think should run the country and their second vote to a party which represents issues which are important to them. For example, a large number of voters will give their second vote to the Greens based on environmental issues.

Given that the Greens back independence as well, if independence is a voter's most important issue, why is it "gaming the system" for that voter to be able to vote for this new party?

The Green Party is an environmental party of long standing who happen to support Independence.
What we are talking about here is a mainstream party effectively having a secondary party to overcome the intended purpose of PR. It's a tactic that has attracted criticism in several other countries including South Korea for damaging the democratic process.

[JeMeSouviens]

The list system precludes a majority for on party, use your second vote for the other existing independence supporting party.

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1283352553040891904

This is a total myth.*

In contrast to Westminster, the list system makes it much, much less likely there will be a majority of seats for a party without a majority of the votes.

However, if you get a majority of votes - you WILL also get a majority of seats.



* yes, Labs and Libs chose PR partly because they were worried that FPTP would make the chance of majority SNP government more likely, but that's not the same thing. Just because Westminster has a grossly unfair voting system, we didn't have to copy it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I can see the argument on both sides, but I'd imagine a large number of voters give their first vote to the party they think should run the country and their second vote to a party which represents issues which are important to them. For example, a large number of voters will give their second vote to the Greens based on environmental issues.

Given that the Greens back independence as well, if independence is a voter's most important issue, why is it "gaming the system" for that voter to be able to vote for this new party?

The Greens are a real party with their own program, asking for you to back them *instead* of the SNP. They might muddy the waters slightly by standing on lists and not constituencies but that's essentially true.

This new thing is explicitly saying "we don't want anything different, we're not even giving you the chance of voting for us in constituences, we want you to vote for us *as well as* the SNP".

It's dodgy as **** and will delegitimise the result. The last thing the pro-Indy side needs. :rolleyes:

[Peevemor]

The list system precludes a majority for on party, use your second vote for the other existing independence supporting party.

https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1283352553040891904


This is a total myth.*

In contrast to Westminster, the list system makes it much, much less likely there will be a majority of seats for a party without a majority of the votes.

However, if you get a majority of votes - you WILL also get a majority of seats.



* yes, Labs and Libs chose PR partly because they were worried that FPTP would make the chance of majority SNP government more likely, but that's not the same thing. Just because Westminster has a grossly unfair voting system, we didn't have to copy it.

The list system was intended to avoid any one party winning an overall majority.

[JeMeSouviens]

The list system was intended to avoid any one party winning an overall majority.

The list system was intended to achieve a proportional result.

*Some* people in Labour were persuaded to go with it because it made the chance of the sort of SNP landslide that happened in Westminster-2015 less possible.

It's still much, much better than fptp.

[JeMeSouviens]

... and btw, the SNP's 2007 win and subsequent minority government wouldn't have happened without the list system and the SNP making up for losses in constituencies by winning more list seats than Labour.

And without that win would we be anywhere near Indy now?

[Keith_M]

...

It's dodgy as **** and will delegitimise the result. The last thing the pro-Indy side needs. :rolleyes:


:agree:


This second vote political party proposal is nothing but an abuse of democracy.

[Tomsk]

a myth ? did kezia dugdale,the leader of scottish labour encourage scottish labour voters to vote for conservatives in 2017, yes or no

An unequivocal no. There was nothing in her statement that could be read as an encouragement for anybody to vote Tory. And there wasn't even a reference to Scottish Labour in it.

[Tomsk]

The Green Party is an environmental party of long standing who happen to support Independence.
What we are talking about here is a mainstream party effectively having a secondary party to overcome the intended purpose of PR. It's a tactic that has attracted criticism in several other countries including South Korea for damaging the democratic process.

That's one way of reading it, I guess. On the other hand one could describe the Green Party as political opportunists of long standing who have recently hitched themselves to the independence wagon in Scotland in order to gain ballot box relevance. I couldn't possibly comment one way or the other except to say I have never been entirely convinced by the link between the SNP brand of independence and Green evangelism as stated in their aims on the carbon energy sources such as oil and gas and air travel, for instance. Mind you, some might think if you have a weasel such as Patrick Harvie as one of your co-leaders just about anything is possible. :wink:

[-Jonesy-]

:agree:


This second vote political party proposal is nothing but an abuse of democracy.

The fact that Murdo Fraser has made a long career as an MSP despite being a serial loser his entire political life is an abuse of democracy.

[Curried]

An unequivocal no. There was nothing in her statement that could be read as an encouragement for anybody to vote Tory. And there wasn't even a reference to Scottish Labour in it.

WoS begs to disagree:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/in-case-you-still-werent-sure/

While I have little time for this guy, Dugdale (as Scotch leader) should have been promoting her party in the Highlands and Borders, but deliberately didn't...and put one of the last nails in Labour's coffin in Scotchland. RIP.

[JeMeSouviens]

The fact that Murdo Fraser has made a long career as an MSP despite being a serial loser his entire political life is an abuse of democracy.

Nobody would be happier than me if MF never had his ugly pus near Holyrood again but ~20%-ish of the electorate keep voting for the Tories. Are you saying you want to bin PR and go to full on FPTP for Scottish elections? To remind you, the SNP would have lost in 2007 and only have had a handful of seats before that.

[Tomsk]

WoS begs to disagree:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/in-case-you-still-werent-sure/

While I have little time for this guy, Dugdale (as Scotch leader) should have been promoting her party in the Highlands and Borders, but deliberately didn't...and put one of the last nails in Labour's coffin in Scotchland. RIP.


Gosh! I had no idea that such an authority, and one so renowned for impartiality and fair-mindedness, as the Rev Campbell had pronounced his opinion on the matter. And what a surprise to learn he has come down on the other side of Ms Dugdale given his unstinting admiration for her!

[-Jonesy-]

Nobody would be happier than me if MF never had his ugly pus near Holyrood again but ~20%-ish of the electorate keep voting for the Tories. Are you saying you want to bin PR and go to full on FPTP for Scottish elections? To remind you, the SNP would have lost in 2007 and only have had a handful of seats before that.

No not at all, just don’t think the emergence of a pro Indy isn’t only party is hijacking democracy or cheapening the strength of an Indy vote at all

[-Jonesy-]

Gosh! I had no idea that such an authority, and one so renowned for impartiality and fair-mindedness, as the Rev Campbell had pronounced his opinion on the matter. And what a surprise to learn he has come down on the other side of Ms Dugdale given his unstinting admiration for her!

He’s not really using his own opinion in that piece though is he?

[Tomsk]

He’s not really using his own opinion in that piece though is he?

You're correct. He doesn't even dress up as an opinion. I am giving him too much credit. He states it as a fact that Dugdale stated that "voting Tory is a better way to stop the SNP than voting for her own party’s candidates". This is despite the video evidence immediately below where she says nothing of the kind.

[JeMeSouviens]

No not at all, just don’t think the emergence of a pro Indy isn’t only party is hijacking democracy or cheapening the strength of an Indy vote at all

It's not if they have a different program to the SNP but also support indy. It is if they're just there to **** about with the party lists.

Anyway, it has next to no chance of making a significant impact unless it has a big hitter like Salmond on board. And if it does that, it's going to stir up all kinds of divisive ****.

At a time when the SNP are >50% in Holyrood polling, it's utter madness.

[Moulin Yarns]

No not at all, just don’t think the emergence of a pro Indy isn’t only party is hijacking democracy or cheapening the strength of an Indy vote at all

The emergence of a single issue party with no wish to actually govern is a bad thing, just look at UKIP and Brexit party for precedents.

When there are already parties who support and campaign for Independence there is no need for another party with only one aim.

Vote SNP 1 and Green 2 and there will be a majority at Holyrood.

[JeMeSouviens]

You're correct. He doesn't even dress up as an opinion. I am giving him too much credit. He states it as a fact that Dugdale stated that "voting Tory is a better way to stop the SNP than voting for her own party’s candidates". This is despite the video evidence immediately below where she says nothing of the kind.

I agree she doesn't say that.

But the logical implication of voting Labour to stop the SNP in some areas but other parties are better placed in other areas is surely that they should vote for other parties in those other areas?

Mind you, this is Kezia Dugdale, so cognitive dissonance is almost a given.

[Tomsk]

I agree she doesn't say that.

But the logical implication of voting Labour to stop the SNP in some areas but other parties are better placed in other areas is surely that they should vote for other parties in those other areas?

Mind you, this is Kezia Dugdale, so cognitive dissonance is almost a given.

Quite. :greengrin

What she was actually trying to say in her usual adroit manner was something along the lines of only Labour can beat the SNP. Even though it was a pile of horse she should have stuck to that and left it at that. But she realised that argument was, let's say, not beyond challenge, especially respecting constituencies outside the central belt. So, she tried thinking on her feet - never a good look for Kezzy - and set out to repair her nonsense by acknowledging that in big swathes of Scotland Labour wasn't the only other dog in the race. It was a cluster of crap but at no time did she tell people to vote Tory.

[ronaldo7]

Setting up secondary parties to defeat the aims of proportional representation is gaming the system surely?

Secondary parties?

Different parties, shirley. The SNP don't have the monopoly on Independence.

Can't see "Max the yes" coming to much, just like the voters wheel produced by the unionist papers to defeat the SNP. Remember that?

[marinello59]

Secondary parties?

Different parties, shirley. The SNP don't have the monopoly on Independence.

Can't see "Max the yes" coming to much, just like the voters wheel produced by the unionist papers to defeat the SNP. Remember that?

A secondary party is exactly what it is, set up to defeat the democratic purpose of PR . Or if you prefer a satellite party.
I don’t really care what the other side do.

[ronaldo7]

A secondary party is exactly what it is, set up to defeat the democratic purpose of PR . Or if you prefer a satellite party.
I don’t really care what the other side do.

Im afraid I don't agree. Same policy, on at least one issue. Not sure about the rest yet. It's early days.

I wonder if my hibs club membership card will get me into the Dockers. 😉

[bawheid]

SNP voter. Don’t like this proposal to try and get around PR. Sneaky, and will put Soft Nos off.

Sounds like it might have come from the online loony fringe of the independence movement. The kind that want to wave saltires and shout freedom but don’t realise to win they need to try and take everyone with them rather than shout at them.

[JeMeSouviens]

SNP voter. Don’t like this proposal to try and get around PR. Sneaky, and will put Soft Nos off.

Sounds like it might have come from the online loony fringe of the independence movement. The kind that want to wave saltires and shout freedom but don’t realise to win they need to try and take everyone with them rather than shout at them.

Exactly! :agree:

[marinello59]

SNP voter. Don’t like this proposal to try and get around PR. Sneaky, and will put Soft Nos off.

Sounds like it might have come from the online loony fringe of the independence movement. The kind that want to wave saltires and shout freedom but don’t realise to win they need to try and take everyone with them rather than shout at them.

Spot on.

[Ozyhibby]

SNP voter. Don’t like this proposal to try and get around PR. Sneaky, and will put Soft Nos off.

Sounds like it might have come from the online loony fringe of the independence movement. The kind that want to wave saltires and shout freedom but don’t realise to win they need to try and take everyone with them rather than shout at them.

100%


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[Hibrandenburg]

:agree:


This second vote political party proposal is nothing but an abuse of democracy.

It's a bit like Celtic lending players to Hibs so that they'll take points off the the Rangers. Legal but naughty. :duck:

[ronaldo7]

SNP voter. Don’t like this proposal to try and get around PR. Sneaky, and will put Soft Nos off.

Sounds like it might have come from the online loony fringe of the independence movement. The kind that want to wave saltires and shout freedom but don’t realise to win they need to try and take everyone with them rather than shout at them.

I'm quite sure it's come from the online yes community of activists. Not sure they're ready to make it happen though, but unless they have an SNP membership card, they won't be attending any branch meetings or conferences.

They're a separate entity from the SNP.

[lord bunberry]

A secondary party is exactly what it is, set up to defeat the democratic purpose of PR . Or if you prefer a satellite party.
I don’t really care what the other side do.
I’m not so sure it’s a secondary party. There’s lots of anti snp independence supporters around right now, they might be setting themselves out as a secondary party, but I think they have an agenda that goes beyond that. They’re doomed to failure anyway, because most people don’t trust them.

[Glory Lurker]

As is evidenced by their absence from the discussion here, a new indy party would be a dream for the unionists.

[JimBHibees]

As is evidenced by their absence from the discussion here, a new indy party would be a dream for the unionists.

Wouldn't rule out some obscure covert involvement. Would be classic divide and conquer and would fit with the empire rule book over the years.

[marinello59]

Wouldn't rule out some obscure covert involvement. Would be classic divide and conquer and would fit with the empire rule book over the years.

You might be on to something. You have to admire Dave Thomson's dedication, fifty five years as a sleeper is outstanding. :greengrin


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18580757.former-snp-msp-dave-thomspon-to-quit-party-form-new-party-alliance-independence/

[JimBHibees]

You might be on to something. You have to admire Dave Thomson's dedication, fifty five years as a sleeper is outstanding. :greengrin


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18580757.former-snp-msp-dave-thomspon-to-quit-party-form-new-party-alliance-independence/

:greengrin

[SHODAN]

Elections should really just be single transferable vote.

[JeMeSouviens]

Elections should really just be single transferable vote.

Agreed. You get both a decent amount of proportionality and a direct link between representatives and constituencies.

The only downside is by-elections are a bit pants but that's a fairly small price to pay.

[Glory Lurker]

Wouldn't rule out some obscure covert involvement. Would be classic divide and conquer and would fit with the empire rule book over the years.

That's not what I'm saying, rather I mean they won't be able to believe their luck.

[JeMeSouviens]

The SNP has changed its rules to make it much harder for a sitting Westminster MP to stand for Holyrood. Immediate victim of this is Joanna Cherry who is not going to stand for Holyrood now, giving Angus Robertson a clear run.

Have to say, I think this is stupid and counter productive.

[marinello59]

The SNP has changed its rules to make it much harder for a sitting Westminster MP to stand for Holyrood. Immediate victim of this is Joanna Cherry who is not going to stand for Holyrood now, giving Angus Robertson a clear run.

Have to say, I think this is stupid and counter productive.

Good news for Sturgeon though, Cherry’s potential leadership bid is stopped in it’s tracks.

[Mr Grieves]

The SNP has changed its rules to make it much harder for a sitting Westminster MP to stand for Holyrood. Immediate victim of this is Joanna Cherry who is not going to stand for Holyrood now, giving Angus Robertson a clear run.

Have to say, I think this is stupid and counter productive.

Not a fan of Cherry but this is poor.

[Hiber-nation]

The SNP has changed its rules to make it much harder for a sitting Westminster MP to stand for Holyrood. Immediate victim of this is Joanna Cherry who is not going to stand for Holyrood now, giving Angus Robertson a clear run.

Have to say, I think this is stupid and counter productive.

Good news :aok:

[Ozyhibby]

The SNP has changed its rules to make it much harder for a sitting Westminster MP to stand for Holyrood. Immediate victim of this is Joanna Cherry who is not going to stand for Holyrood now, giving Angus Robertson a clear run.

Have to say, I think this is stupid and counter productive.

I think it would be good if both Cherry and Robertson were at Holyrood.


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[CloudSquall]

I'd be ok with a new indy party if it had some distinct ideas on independence, for example if a party was pro indy, centre right, pro EFTA (but not pro EU) then it would represent a view different to that of the SNP.

From reading up on the people behind the new party, ISP, so far it seems to be people just peeved off with the SNP regarding the trans issue.

I think what will happen is the echo chamber of social media will give them the idea that they are hitting 20 + MSPs and the reality will be they won't hit anywhere near even RISE levels of support.

[Glory Lurker]

I think it would be good if both Cherry and Robertson were at Holyrood.


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Dream fitba.

[Glory Lurker]

I'd be ok with a new indy party if it had some distinct ideas on independence, for example if a party was pro indy, centre right, pro EFTA (but not pro EU) then it would represent a view different to that of the SNP.

From reading up on the people behind the new party, ISP, so far it seems to be people just peeved off with the SNP regarding the trans issue.

I think what will happen is the echo chamber of social media will give them the idea that they are hitting 20 + MSPs and the reality will be they won't hit anywhere near even RISE levels of support.

Which might be just enough to lose the SNP an additional list seat.

[7 Up]

The SNP has changed its rules to make it much harder for a sitting Westminster MP to stand for Holyrood. Immediate victim of this is Joanna Cherry who is not going to stand for Holyrood now, giving Angus Robertson a clear run.

Have to say, I think this is stupid and counter productive.

Good decision. Jumping ship to another parliament and forcing an unnecessary by-election would have been a slap in the face to constituents who elected her less than a year ago.

[Tomsk]

Good decision. Jumping ship to another parliament and forcing an unnecessary by-election would have been a slap in the face to constituents who elected her less than a year ago.

Speaking as one of her constituents - though not one who elected her - I would have been delighted to see the back of her.

[JeMeSouviens]

Good decision. Jumping ship to another parliament and forcing an unnecessary by-election would have been a slap in the face to constituents who elected her less than a year ago.

That’s a fair enough point if it weren’t for the fact that the SNP has had 20 years of devolution to sort this out but has done nothing until it suits a stop Cherry agenda.

I’m worried that the stars are aligning for Indy and we’re going to blow it over a stupid philandering nonsense and a vitriolic argument over a niche issue.

****

[Ozyhibby]

That’s a fair enough point if it weren’t for the fact that the SNP has had 20 years of devolution to sort this out but has done nothing until it suits a stop Cherry agenda.

I’m worried that the stars are aligning for Indy and we’re going to blow it over a stupid philandering nonsense and a vitriolic argument over a niche issue.

****

Yip. It’s a good decision but the timing suggests it’s about stopping Cherry. I think there will need to be a referendum next year to unite the party again.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

the decision to make james dornans ward just for a woman has been reversed, ridiculous the first decision to exclude him was made in the first place, but common sense prevails :agree:

[CloudSquall]

There are elements within the SNP that seem intent on doing whatever they can to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, how so very Scottish..

[Hibernia&Alba]

There are elements within the SNP that seem intent on doing whatever they can to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, how so very Scottish..

You're still haunted by the Costa Rica game, aren't you? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/dani-garavelli-cherry-cake-those-who-oppose-independence-2930632

Article on the battle inside the SNP.


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[Pretty Boy]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/dani-garavelli-cherry-cake-those-who-oppose-independence-2930632

Article on the battle inside the SNP.


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I'm a bit out the loop on what is going on within the SNP, primarily because I don't really care, but I did notice a bit of kicking off on Twitter during the week with people saying they had resigned their memberships and others scolding them for it. Cameron McNeish, who I am a big fan of for his day job, was quite involved.

Tha article puts a bit of meat on the bones.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm a bit out the loop on what is going on within the SNP, primarily because I don't really care, but I did notice a bit of kicking off on Twitter during the week with people saying they had resigned their memberships and others scolding them for it. Cameron McNeish, who I am a big fan of for his day job, was quite involved.

Tha article puts a bit of meat on the bones.

There seems to have been a more fundamentalist wing that have grown who think there should be a universal Declaration of Independence if a section 30 order is not granted. They appear not to want everything done by the book the way Sturgeon does. Personally I think Sturgeon has got it just right. Independence needs to be won by persuasion and those who constantly harp on about a plan b are like children.
It’s clear that Sturgeons strategy is winning as support is now at 54% yet they see the success of Sturgeon in building this support as a reason to now switch to their policy.
I’m firmly in the Sturgeon camp. As are most of the party.
They will set up their own party but I think it will fail.


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[ronaldo7]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/dani-garavelli-cherry-cake-those-who-oppose-independence-2930632

Article on the battle inside the SNP.


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Glasgow Cathcart situation has been reversed since that article was written. NEC taking a kicking from the grassroots.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/mhairihunter/status/1289830227195990017?s=21

Worth a read. It appears Cherry can stand and only has to resign her seat by Easter 2021 so that the by election can be held the same day as Scottish election. Seems entirely fair and it appears she jumped the gun.


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[StevieC]

There seems to have been a more fundamentalist wing that have grown who think there should be a universal Declaration of Independence if a section 30 order is not granted. They appear not to want everything done by the book the way Sturgeon does. Personally I think Sturgeon has got it just right. Independence needs to be won by persuasion and those who constantly harp on about a plan b are like children.
It’s clear that Sturgeons strategy is winning as support is now at 54% yet they see the success of Sturgeon in building this support as a reason to now switch to their policy.
I’m firmly in the Sturgeon camp. As are most of the party.
They will set up their own party but I think it will fail.


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I was going to post something similar.

I've only met Jo Cherry a couple of times where she was talking to members (Conference and the Edinburgh Roadshow) and I wasn't overly impressed with her stance or what she was saying. She seemed very focused on talking up her point of view on the way to get Independence, and had very little time for anyone expressing alternative views. That was only a couple of meetings though, and appreciate it wouldn't be fair to make a judgement on her based on that.

I know the type of pro-Independence people the article is referring to, I've seen them in action at branch meetings and local/national events. They want Independence, they want it now, and they want it by whatever means possible. I've seen them storm out of meetings when a cautious approach to Independence is mentioned, and I suspect they would lap up the likes of Cherry or talk of a Salmond led Independence party.
My belief is that they are very much in the minority though, and don't see any unrest in the membership to suggest that they are likely to gain much support for their radical "plan b" suggestions.

[Peevemor]

I was going to post something similar.

I've only met Jo Cherry a couple of times where she was talking to members (Conference and the Edinburgh Roadshow) and I wasn't overly impressed with her stance or what she was saying. She seemed very focused on talking up her point of view on the way to get Independence, and had very little time for anyone expressing alternative views. That was only a couple of meetings though, and appreciate it wouldn't be fair to make a judgement on her based on that.

I know the type of pro-Independence people the article is referring to, I've seen them in action at branch meetings and local/national events. They want Independence, they want it now, and they want it by whatever means possible. I've seen them storm out of meetings when a cautious approach to Independence is mentioned, and I suspect they would lap up the likes of Cherry or talk of a Salmond led Independence party.
My belief is that they are very much in the minority though, and don't see any unrest in the membership to suggest that they are likely to gain much support for their radical "plan b" suggestions.I met her a few times years ago and she was fine (her sister is married to one of my mates).

She's obviously extremely intelligent and is an excellent parliamentarian but there's something unlikeable about her. The same goes for Salmond.

I know it should be the substance that matters, but neither of the two will ever have the same support as Nicola Sturgeon - almost purely down to personality.

I also tend to agree with Sturgeon's strategy of playing things by the book, but I can also understand people's impatience given that the independence movement is currently on the crest of yet another wave.

[Ozyhibby]

I met her a few times years ago and she was fine (her sister is married to one of my mates).

She's obviously extremely intelligent and is an excellent parliamentarian but there's something unlikeable about her. The same goes for Salmond.

I know it should be the substance that matters, but neither of the two will ever have the same support as Nicola Sturgeon - almost purely down to personality.

I also tend to agree with Sturgeon's strategy of playing things by the book, but I can also understand people's impatience given that the independence movement is currently on the crest of yet another wave.

Independence is on the crest of a wave because of Sturgeons by the book approach. Since Johnson first said he would reject a section 30 order support for independence has grown 9 percentage points. If he refuses again following the Scottish elections it will hurt the union more. Once the union becomes something we are not allowed to leave, it’s finished.
We should always be the party who supports democracy.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/erikgeddes/status/1291997282783694849?s=21

Sensible message from Sturgeon.


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[147lothian]

I have voted for the SNP but I must admit I don't agree with their tough stance on the lock down, ok part of it is because I want to get back to going to the games but I just feel that the SNP has looked at the opinion polls, and realized that it is popular to be seen to be doing something regarding Covid-19.

Non essential repair work for housing has started in England, but not in Scotland, some gyms have opened there, yet there is not even a date for them opening here and fans wiould be most likely have been let into grounds in small numbers of course if games were being played there at the moment, however it seems to me that Nicola Sturgeon taking the stance she has is because she wants be seen to be doing something.

We are out of the worst of the pandemic that we seen in March and April, and I also fear for the recession that is to come, lots of small businesses will be going to the wall, by all means quarantine the medically vulnerable and the elderly, but IMO its time to start ending the lock down for the rest of us, and getting back to as 'normal' a life as possible.

[CapitalGreen]

I have voted for the SNP but I must admit I don't agree with their tough stance on the lock down, ok part of it is because I want to get back to going to the games but I just feel that the SNP has looked at the opinion polls, and realized that it is popular to be seen to be doing something regarding Covid-19.

Non essential repair work for housing has started in England, but not in Scotland, some gyms have opened there, yet there is not even a date for them opening here and fans wiould be most likely have been let into grounds in small numbers of course if games were being played there at the moment, however it seems to me that Nicola Sturgeon taking the stance she has is because she wants be seen to be doing something.

We are out of the worst of the pandemic that we seen in March and April, and I also fear for the recession that is to come, lots of small businesses will be going to the wall, by all means quarantine the medically vulnerable and the elderly, but IMO its time to start ending the lock down for the rest of us, and getting back to as 'normal' a life as possible.

The ending of lockdown was started quite a while ago now, we are currently in phase 3.

[Bristolhibby]

I have voted for the SNP but I must admit I don't agree with their tough stance on the lock down, ok part of it is because I want to get back to going to the games but I just feel that the SNP has looked at the opinion polls, and realized that it is popular to be seen to be doing something regarding Covid-19.

Non essential repair work for housing has started in England, but not in Scotland, some gyms have opened there, yet there is not even a date for them opening here and fans wiould be most likely have been let into grounds in small numbers of course if games were being played there at the moment, however it seems to me that Nicola Sturgeon taking the stance she has is because she wants be seen to be doing something.

We are out of the worst of the pandemic that we seen in March and April, and I also fear for the recession that is to come, lots of small businesses will be going to the wall, by all means quarantine the medically vulnerable and the elderly, but IMO its time to start ending the lock down for the rest of us, and getting back to as 'normal' a life as possible.

Yet we down her have 10 times the deaths per capita compared to Scotland.

I’d say Scotland has got it right. Wouldn’t surprise me that wave two hits hard in the winter.

J

[Tomsk]

Yet we down her have 10 times the deaths per capita compared to Scotland.

I’d say Scotland has got it right. Wouldn’t surprise me that wave two hits hard in the winter.

J

In absolute numbers Scotland's total deaths is approximately one tenth of the UK's as a whole. Per capita (deaths per million for instance) it's nothing like a tenth.

[Callum_62]

I have voted for the SNP but I must admit I don't agree with their tough stance on the lock down, ok part of it is because I want to get back to going to the games but I just feel that the SNP has looked at the opinion polls, and realized that it is popular to be seen to be doing something regarding Covid-19.

Non essential repair work for housing has started in England, but not in Scotland, some gyms have opened there, yet there is not even a date for them opening here and fans wiould be most likely have been let into grounds in small numbers of course if games were being played there at the moment, however it seems to me that Nicola Sturgeon taking the stance she has is because she wants be seen to be doing something.

We are out of the worst of the pandemic that we seen in March and April, and I also fear for the recession that is to come, lots of small businesses will be going to the wall, by all means quarantine the medically vulnerable and the elderly, but IMO its time to start ending the lock down for the rest of us, and getting back to as 'normal' a life as possible.It's popular to be seen to be doing something regarding covid 19?

I get the impression you are somewhat underestimating the global pandemic

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[Just Alf]

I have voted for the SNP but I must admit I don't agree with their tough stance on the lock down, ok part of it is because I want to get back to going to the games but I just feel that the SNP has looked at the opinion polls, and realized that it is popular to be seen to be doing something regarding Covid-19.

Non essential repair work for housing has started in England, but not in Scotland, some gyms have opened there, yet there is not even a date for them opening here and fans wiould be most likely have been let into grounds in small numbers of course if games were being played there at the moment, however it seems to me that Nicola Sturgeon taking the stance she has is because she wants be seen to be doing something.

We are out of the worst of the pandemic that we seen in March and April, and I also fear for the recession that is to come, lots of small businesses will be going to the wall, by all means quarantine the medically vulnerable and the elderly, but IMO its time to start ending the lock down for the rest of us, and getting back to as 'normal' a life as possible.Government both north and south of the border are trying to release us from lockdown, unfortunately too many of us are disregarding the safety protocols (social distancing etc) which is slowing the exit down, even reversing it in some cases... see pub queues in Aberdeen as an example.

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[Future17]

It's popular to be seen to be doing something regarding covid 19?

I get the impression you are somewhat underestimating the global pandemic

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That was the part that made me laugh out loud. It's hard to argue with as I suspect it would be very unpopular to do nothing regarding it.

[Sir David Gray]

Yet we down her have 10 times the deaths per capita compared to Scotland.

I’d say Scotland has got it right. Wouldn’t surprise me that wave two hits hard in the winter.

J

I'm not quite sure where you're getting your numbers from but it's not even close.

England's official death toll represents around 750 deaths per 1 million people. Scotland's figure is 453 deaths per million people.

[Jones28]

I have voted for the SNP but I must admit I don't agree with their tough stance on the lock down, ok part of it is because I want to get back to going to the games but I just feel that the SNP has looked at the opinion polls, and realized that it is popular to be seen to be doing something regarding Covid-19.

Non essential repair work for housing has started in England, but not in Scotland, some gyms have opened there, yet there is not even a date for them opening here and fans wiould be most likely have been let into grounds in small numbers of course if games were being played there at the moment, however it seems to me that Nicola Sturgeon taking the stance she has is because she wants be seen to be doing something.

We are out of the worst of the pandemic that we seen in March and April, and I also fear for the recession that is to come, lots of small businesses will be going to the wall, by all means quarantine the medically vulnerable and the elderly, but IMO its time to start ending the lock down for the rest of us, and getting back to as 'normal' a life as possible.

So the fact we have been in a phased return to “normality” for nearly 8 weeks is to harsh in your opinion? Even though we’ve seen clusters in Aberdeen that have meant full lock down being reimposed?

What a load of nonsense.

[degenerated]

In absolute numbers Scotland's total deaths is approximately one tenth of the UK's as a whole. Per capita (deaths per million for instance) it's nothing like a tenth.Can you provide data or a link to this data as I would be interested to see it as the data I have seen tends to suggest that deaths with confirmed tests are in excess of 15 times greater in England - 2491/41,900 (bbc) and that the excess mortalities in the period showed slightly less - 4881/c. 60,000 (bbc/ F.T. estimates)
The ONS also reported that excess deaths rose by 7.5% in England and by 5.1% in Scotland.









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[lucky]

The radical wing of the SNP need a reality check, plan A a steady match to a second referendum and potential Yes vote has only just started to get ahead in the opinion polls. If the SNP went down the route of plan B if Boris Johnston blocked a second referendum it would turn people off and therefore damage plan A.

I was out with friends on Saturday, 5 of us all voted no in 2014, all now either supportive of yes or certainly considering voting that way. Most of the change of opinion is based on Nicola Sturgeon’s handling of coronavirus. But a self declaration just turns people off. Some in the SNP remind me of the Labour Party in the late 1990 early 2000’s so desperate to have everything that good becomes the enemy of perfect. Which leads to the loss of power. I was no great fan of Brown and Blair but compared to Johnston and Cummings it’s a no brainer

[Tomsk]

Can you provide data or a link to this data as I would be interested to see it as the data I have seen tends to suggest that deaths with confirmed tests are in excess of 15 times greater in England - 2491/41,900 (bbc) and that the excess mortalities in the period showed slightly less - 4881/c. 60,000 (bbc/ F.T. estimates)
The ONS also reported that excess deaths rose by 7.5% in England and by 5.1% in Scotland.









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If I am doing my sums right, deaths where Covid is recorded as a factor on the death certificate in England around 48,500. In Scotland 4,200. Not a tenth, but not far off it.

To see my workings follow the data trail in the link below.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

However, I am happy to use your figures - or any published and reviewed figures - as I was really just pointing out that per capita, the term used by BristolHibby, deaths in Scotland per capita are nothing like a tenth of England's. Using your confirmed death data as above, deaths per 100,000 in Scotland are approximately 45, in England it is around 75 per 100,000.

I think whatever angle we come from we will never arrive at a 10% per capita result. Do you agree?

[lapsedhibee]

If I am doing my sums right, deaths where Covid is recorded as a factor on the death certificate in England around 48,500. In Scotland 4,200. Not a tenth, but not far off it.

To see my workings follow the data trail in the link below.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

However, I am happy to use your figures - or any published and reviewed figures - as I was really just pointing out that per capita, the term used by BristolHibby, deaths in Scotland per capita are nothing like a tenth of England's. Using your confirmed death data as above, deaths per 100,000 in Scotland are approximately 45, in England it is around 75 per 100,000.

I think whatever angle we come from we will never arrive at a 10% per capita result. Do you agree?

I wonder if coming at it from the angle of 'comparing results since Scotland took a slightly different path from England' there would be a larger discrepancy than 45 v 75.

[Ozyhibby]

In absolute numbers Scotland's total deaths is approximately one tenth of the UK's as a whole. Per capita (deaths per million for instance) it's nothing like a tenth.

It’s nowhere near approx one tenth of the total either. It’s about 5%.


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[Jack]

As far as I'm aware Scotland publishes a figure for Covid-19 related deaths and that's about it.

In England they have pillars 1, 2, 3 and 4. The tory friendly media use pilar 1 when drawing comparisons between England and everywhere else, its bad but not too bad. The proper investigative stuff, like the Times, include at least pilar 2 which gives a more representative comparison and that's a shocker.

And then there's the excess deaths, also covered by the Times, where the deaths in England are horrific even on a per population basis with almost every other country in the world never mind Scotland.

[Rocky]

I wonder if coming at it from the angle of 'comparing results since Scotland took a slightly different path from England' there would be a larger discrepancy than 45 v 75.
Up to the end of May the England & Wales death toll was around 7% higher per capita than Scotland. From the start of June to 24 July it's 76% higher. Or, to put it another way, 2,100 fewer people in E&W would be dead if they'd managed to keep the difference to 7% since the beginning of June. (Source ONS / NRS deaths with Covid on death certificate)

[degenerated]

If I am doing my sums right, deaths where Covid is recorded as a factor on the death certificate in England around 48,500. In Scotland 4,200. Not a tenth, but not far off it.

To see my workings follow the data trail in the link below.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

However, I am happy to use your figures - or any published and reviewed figures - as I was really just pointing out that per capita, the term used by BristolHibby, deaths in Scotland per capita are nothing like a tenth of England's. Using your confirmed death data as above, deaths per 100,000 in Scotland are approximately 45, in England it is around 75 per 100,000.

I think whatever angle we come from we will never arrive at a 10% per capita result. Do you agree?

I wasn't disputing the 10% per capita result, thats very unlikely. I suspect the original poster of that has just confused terminology.

I am curious about the general stats as it is very hard to find any meaningful comparable data. There is too much comparing of apples and aardvarks for political purposes, not a dig at you and more a dig at the media. And England only figures are virtually impossible to find for:

- confirmed by test
- noted on death certificate
- excess all cause



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200810/542b4ee3019f8089364d32e0eba4f3a9.jpg

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[Tomsk]

It’s nowhere near approx one tenth of the total either. It’s about 5%.


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Depends on what data you're using.

There is clearly work to be done on the data emanating from both England and Scotland. Doubtless people will debate the finer points for years to come. Some of them might ask what's to be made of these statements from the National Records of Scotland.

Between weeks 12 and 31 (16th March to 2nd August) there were 2,349 (49%) more deaths in care homes than average. COVID-19 was the underlying cause in 1,875 (80%) of these excess deaths. In the same period, there were 2,925 excess deaths which took place at home or in a non-institutional setting (51% above average). COVID-19 was the underlying cause in 241 (8%) of these excess deaths.

I can have a stab at accounting for the non-Covid excess deaths in care homes. I might be wrong but it could be that people who should have been in hospital were packed off to care homes and died in the homes because the care home didn't have adequate medical provision or those people would have died in hospital anyway. I don't think it says a great deal for Scotland's public health management response but at least it accounts for an apparent discrepancy.

As for the discrepancy in non-Covid excess deaths at home or in a non-institutional setting I understand people were discouraged from attending hospitals and GPs etc. but would that really account for that number of excess deaths?

By the way, whatever way you look at it, the 2,349 above average deaths in care homes is a scandal.

[Tomsk]

I wasn't disputing the 10% per capita result, thats very unlikely. I suspect the original poster of that has just confused terminology.

I am curious about the general stats as it is very hard to find any meaningful comparable data. There is too much comparing of apples and aardvarks for political purposes, not a dig at you and more a dig at the media. And England only figures are virtually impossible to find for:

- confirmed by test
- noted on death certificate
- excess all cause



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200810/542b4ee3019f8089364d32e0eba4f3a9.jpg

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For what it's worth I agree with everything you're saying.

For meaningful data we may have to be patient, and probably will never arrive at an agreed position. Statisticians are still arguing over the number of deaths due to the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1919-20, with estimates ranging from 20m to over 100m.

[G B Young]

As far as I'm aware Scotland publishes a figure for Covid-19 related deaths and that's about it.

In England they have pillars 1, 2, 3 and 4. The tory friendly media use pilar 1 when drawing comparisons between England and everywhere else, its bad but not too bad. The proper investigative stuff, like the Times, include at least pilar 2 which gives a more representative comparison and that's a shocker.

And then there's the excess deaths, also covered by the Times, where the deaths in England are horrific even on a per population basis with almost every other country in the world never mind Scotland.

England had the worst excess death rate in Europe until the middle of June. Scotland had the fourth worst, Wales sixth and NI ninth. The UK did crap, no question. All excess deaths are a source of great sadness and regret and I fail to see why some on here are so determined to keep framing the tallies in the context of whether Scotland 'did better' than England. While the mistakes of the early months of Covid can't be undone, the fact that every effort is being made to ensure the UK as a whole is in a far better position to deal with any second wave - and that the most hopeful vaccine trials taking place around the world have emerged from this country - strikes me as a more progressive way to look at where we now stand.

A far greater tragedy is the one taking place in Mexico/South America where excess deaths numbers will ultimately dwarf anything in the UK and where, more significantly, next to nothing is being done by the likes of Brazil's president to stem the ongoing surge of the virus.

[Jack]

England had the worst excess death rate in Europe until the middle of June. Scotland had the fourth worst, Wales sixth and NI ninth. The UK did crap, no question. All excess deaths are a source of great sadness and regret and I fail to see why some on here are so determined to keep framing the tallies in the context of whether Scotland 'did better' than England. While the mistakes of the early months of Covid can't be undone, the fact that every effort is being made to ensure the UK as a whole is in a far better position to deal with any second wave - and that the most hopeful vaccine trials taking place around the world have emerged from this country - strikes me as a more progressive way to look at where we now stand.

A far greater tragedy is the one taking place in Mexico/South America where excess deaths numbers will ultimately dwarf anything in the UK and where, more significantly, next to nothing is being done by the likes of Brazil's president to stem the ongoing surge of the virus.

It never ceases to amaze me how unionists, like you, always look to minimise how totally dreadfully the Torys have dealt with this crisis. Everything the torys have touched; from refusing to provide PPE to anywhere but England to undermining lockdown they've taken their eye off the ball while Brexit gets done.

While you may be full of remorse for those that are now dead it quite evident for every disaster there's a quick buck to be made in the corridors of tory HQ.

[lapsedhibee]

England had the worst excess death rate in Europe until the middle of June. Scotland had the fourth worst, Wales sixth and NI ninth. The UK did crap, no question. All excess deaths are a source of great sadness and regret and I fail to see why some on here are so determined to keep framing the tallies in the context of whether Scotland 'did better' than England. While the mistakes of the early months of Covid can't be undone, the fact that every effort is being made to ensure the UK as a whole is in a far better position to deal with any second wave - and that the most hopeful vaccine trials taking place around the world have emerged from this country - strikes me as a more progressive way to look at where we now stand.



Can I get a source for this belief please?

[One Day Soon]

It never ceases to amaze me how unionists, like you, always look to minimise how totally dreadfully the Torys have dealt with this crisis. Everything the torys have touched; from refusing to provide PPE to anywhere but England to undermining lockdown they've taken their eye off the ball while Brexit gets done.

While you may be full of remorse for those that are now dead it quite evident for every disaster there's a quick buck to be made in the corridors of tory HQ.

I'm happy to rip the piss out of Johnson, his government and pretty much everything they screw up - which is most things - but your claim above is simply not true.

[Jack]

I'm happy to rip the piss out of Johnson, his government and pretty much everything they screw up - which is most things - but your claim above is simply not true.

Oh but it is.

"23 million items of PPE have been released to designated wholesalers for onward sale to social care providers. We have made arrangements with seven wholesalers to supply PPE to the social care sector. [They] will all provide supplies to care providers registered with the Care Quality Commission."
Department of Health PPE Plan

You may, or may not be aware the Care Quality Commission only deals with English establishments.

Here's a link to a media story not restricted by pay walls.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2020-04-15/ppe-supplier-england-only-policy-for-care-homes

[marinello59]

Oh but it is.

"23 million items of PPE have been released to designated wholesalers for onward sale to social care providers. We have made arrangements with seven wholesalers to supply PPE to the social care sector. [They] will all provide supplies to care providers registered with the Care Quality Commission."
Department of Health PPE Plan

You may, or may not be aware the Care Quality Commission only deals with English establishments.

Here's a link to a media story not restricted by pay walls.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2020-04-15/ppe-supplier-england-only-policy-for-care-homes

That was discussed extensively on here at the time and it was generally agreed it was a misunderstanding rather than a deliberate act. Westminster has got plenty wrong, this wasn’t one of them.

[Jack]

That was discussed extensively on here at the time and it was generally agreed it was a misunderstanding rather than a deliberate act. Westminster has got plenty wrong, this wasn’t one of them.

Are you suggesting no-one at the Department of Health was aware of the implications of what was being said in that memo? As someone that worked for the Scottish Government in health, I don't find that credible. A misunderstanding such as that would have gone through the desks of too many people.

And even if it was a misunderstanding when did ignorance, a blatant disregard of the devolved nations, become an excuse?

[marinello59]

Are you suggesting no-one at the Department of Health was aware of the implications of what was being said in that memo? As someone that worked for the Scottish Government in health, I don't find that credible. A misunderstanding such as that would have gone through the desks of too many people.

And even if it was a misunderstanding when did ignorance, a blatant disregard of the devolved nations, become an excuse?

You really don’t remember Jeane Freeman saying at a briefing when this broke that she accepted the explanation she had been given :confused:

[Rocky]

You really don’t remember Jeane Freeman saying at a briefing when this broke that she accepted the explanation she had been given :confused:

That happened the day before the company concerned confirmed it was true if I recall correctly.

[JeMeSouviens]

Can I get a source for this belief please?

The most advanced of the vaccine trials is the Oxford/AstraZeneca one. They had a massive head start because the team at Oxford were already in phase 3 with a MERS coronavirus vaccine. I'm sure, if it works, this will be trumpeted as "Britain saving the world" or somesuch but as far as I can see, it has **** all to do with any institution of the British state, far less its government.

The next most advanced are Moderna (US) and BioNTech/Pfizer (Germany/US) and there are 3 or 4 Chinese vaccine candidates at advanced stages, including one actually already being given to the Chinese military.

[weecounty hibby]

[QUOTE=G B Young;6262795]England had the worst excess death rate in Europe until the middle of June. Scotland had the fourth worst, Wales sixth and NI ninth. The UK did crap, no question. All excess deaths are a source of great sadness and regret and I fail to see why some on here are so determined to keep framing the tallies in the context of whether Scotland 'did better' than England. While the mistakes of the early months of Covid can't be undone, the fact that every effort is being made to ensure the UK as a whole is in a far better position to deal with any second wave - and that the most hopeful vaccine trials taking place around the world have emerged from this country - strikes me as a more progressive way to look at where we now stand.

What's your take on the fact that when all of these early mistakes were being made that a lot of Tories and their chums were making a whole heap of cash from these early mistakes? Just a coincidence?

[ronaldo7]

Prestwick airport returns to profit.

Those pesky nats playing the long game, rather than putting those who work there on the dole.

[Rocky]

Prestwick airport returns to profit.

Those pesky nats playing the long game, rather than putting those who work there on the dole.

Is that genuine profit or am accounting technicality? Good result either way but particularly impressive if it's a genuine commercial profit.

[ronaldo7]

Is that genuine profit or am accounting technicality? Good result either way but particularly impressive if it's a genuine commercial profit.

Still to be audited. 😂

Underlying operating profit of £3m

[marinello59]

Prestwick airport returns to profit.

Those pesky nats playing the long game, rather than putting those who work there on the dole.

Great news. There’s a preferred bidder on the scene as well isn’t there? What does that take the total debt to the taxpayer down to?

[ronaldo7]

Great news. There’s a preferred bidder on the scene as well isn’t there? What does that take the total debt to the taxpayer down to?

Only about £40 mill. Cheap at the price. All those families saved from poverty.

[Saturday Boy]

Only about £40 mill. Cheap at the price. All those families saved from poverty.

Everyone keeps forgetting that it’s the only, or one of the few fog free airports in the UK. (too late to fact check)

That’s the only reason Elvis 🕺 set foot on these islands.

[ronaldo7]

Everyone keeps forgetting that it’s the only, or one of the few fog free airports in the UK. (too late to fact check)

That’s the only reason Elvis 🕺 set foot on these islands.

U huh

[speedy_gonzales]

Everyone keeps forgetting that it’s the only, or one of the few fog free airports in the UK. (too late to fact check)

That’s the only reason Elvis 🕺 set foot on these islands.
Not such a big issue these days with ILS & autoland.

[danhibees1875]

Not such a big issue these days with ILS & autoland.

Plus Elvis isn't alive anymore.

[One Day Soon]

Plus Elvis isn't alive anymore.

Controversial*


*See 'It's a conspiracy !!!' thread.

[danhibees1875]

Controversial*


*See 'It's a conspiracy !!!' thread.

:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Jeanne Freeman joins the senior MSPs standing down.

Alongside Alex Neil, Roseanna Cunningham, Mike Russell. They need to drop the stupid anti-Cherry ruling and get some of the talent wasted at westminster to move home.

[Ozyhibby]

Jeanne Freeman joins the senior MSPs standing down.

Alongside Alex Neil, Roseanna Cunningham, Mike Russell. They need to drop the stupid anti-Cherry ruling and get some of the talent wasted at westminster to move home.


I actually think it’s a good rule. Timing was rubbish though. They do need star performers back at Holyrood though.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I actually think it’s a good rule. Timing was rubbish though. They do need star performers back at Holyrood though.


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Fair enough that MPs should give up their seats once elected to Holyrood but not in advance. And the timing sucked.

[marinello59]

Jeanne Freeman joins the senior MSPs standing down.

Alongside Alex Neil, Roseanna Cunningham, Mike Russell. They need to drop the stupid anti-Cherry ruling and get some of the talent wasted at westminster to move home.

It's no surprise to see Freeman standing down, it could only have been the pandemic that saved her from being sacked as health secretary.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the stop-Cherry ruling to be changed. Sturgeon and her husband Murrell are ruthless when it comes to keeping control of their party.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Mandeep singh jailed for 72 days after failing to stick to a 6pm-6am curfew ordered by a judge, to do with his refusing to comply with glasgow council requests for the march last year, they wanted 11:30am,he organised 1:30pm, he also failed to apply for road closures

he doesn't help hinself does he, needs to screw the nut

[marinello59]

Mandeep singh jailed for 72 days after failing to stick to a 6pm-6am curfew ordered by a judge, to do with his refusing to comply with glasgow council requests for the march last year, they wanted 11:30am,he organised 1:30pm, he also failed to apply for road closures

he doesn't help hinself does he, needs to screw the nut

Craig Murray knows who is to blame apparently.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

[Berwickhibby]

Craig Murray knows who is to blame apparently.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

That will be the same Craig Murray who stated that Israel was responsible for the Salisbury poisoning 🤣🤣

[marinello59]

That will be the same Craig Murray who stated that Israel was responsible for the Salisbury poisoning 🤣🤣

Just for the avoidance of doubt I think he is an absolute trumpet. :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

Just for the avoidance of doubt I think he is an absolute trumpet. :greengrin

I knew that....anyone who has Joe Strummers lyrics as a signature block is ok in my book

[Ozyhibby]

Just for the avoidance of doubt I think he is an absolute trumpet. :greengrin

Something both sides of the Indy debate can agree on. [emoji106]


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[JimBHibees]

Mandeep singh jailed for 72 days after failing to stick to a 6pm-6am curfew ordered by a judge, to do with his refusing to comply with glasgow council requests for the march last year, they wanted 11:30am,he organised 1:30pm, he also failed to apply for road closures

he doesn't help hinself does he, needs to screw the nut

Is that really deserving of jail while admitting to not knowing the detail behind it? On the face of it seems harsh

[Future17]

Is that really deserving of jail while admitting to not knowing the detail behind it? On the face of it seems harsh

If you refuse to adhere to the terms of a non-custodial sentence, a custodial sentence is all that remains.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200831/d97c5159bf5fa86778ef3acfc4d0f4d2.jpg
Showing the new rules don’t stop MP’s looking to get elected to Holyrood. Cherry needs to bite the bullet and announce her intention to stand.


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[McD]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200831/d97c5159bf5fa86778ef3acfc4d0f4d2.jpg
Showing the new rules don’t stop MP’s looking to get elected to Holyrood. Cherry needs to bite the bullet and announce her intention to stand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


genuine question, am I right in thinking he could lose both elections and end up with neither a seat in the commons or Holyrood?

I stress the word ‘could’, I assume he and/or his team of advisors will have done the research on how likely that situation would be before declaring this

[Ozyhibby]

genuine question, am I right in thinking he could lose both elections and end up with neither a seat in the commons or Holyrood?

I stress the word ‘could’, I assume he and/or his team of advisors will have done the research on how likely that situation would be before declaring this

Yes, of course. He is at the mercy of the electorate. Exactly as it should be.


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[JeMeSouviens]

genuine question, am I right in thinking he could lose both elections and end up with neither a seat in the commons or Holyrood?

I stress the word ‘could’, I assume he and/or his team of advisors will have done the research on how likely that situation would be before declaring this

I don't think he'll be allowed to stand in both?

The Holyrood constituency is a pretty safe seat.

[marinello59]

Further proof if needed that there is not one party at Holyrood that can claim the moral high ground over the others. Though the Greens may have avoided scandal so far, boring *******s. . :greengrin

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/specials/derek-mackay-anger-over-disgraced-former-finance-secretarys-holyrood-expenses-claims/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-ferrier-mp-coronavirus-parliament-apology-symptoms-b743160.html%3famp

[lapsedhibee]

Further proof if needed that there is not one party at Holyrood that can claim the moral high ground over the others.


If she is swiftly sacked, it might be argued that the way the incident has been dealt with puts SNP in a significantly better moral place than the Tories, who have so signally failed to take action against miscreants.

[Ozyhibby]

If she is swiftly sacked, it might be argued that the way the incident has been dealt with puts SNP in a significantly better moral place than the Tories, who have so signally failed to take action against miscreants.

Been suspended and whip removed already. Unfortunately she can’t be sacked.


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[Glory Lurker]

Been suspended and whip removed already. Unfortunately she can’t be sacked.


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Constituents can get her recalled. Fine with me if they do.