SNP nonsense

[Just Alf]

You will have to work a bit harder on the comedy routine before the fringe starts. But when someone heckles you, you need to have a better line in comebacks rather than repeating the same pish.

And ironically, the bit you put in bold.... He's the one poster on here who's not been close to doing that.

[McD]

This is complete nonsense. One of the worst posts I've read on here. I've long suspected you're one of these fake posters falsely arguing against posters who are of the same separatist views as yourself but pretend to have an opposing argument. Ridiculous post.

I'm one of the few on here who actually makes a straight down the line case for the party I have supported for many a year.

Some of us actually believe in what we're saying.

Social Justice - Dignity and Decent Benefits for Disabled Folk and the Unemployed - Protecting and Growing Pensions for the Elderly - Growing the Economy for all of the Folk of Scotland to Prosper and Live Well - Housing the Homeless - Ensuring Adequate Funding for our NHS among any number of our vital Socialist Ideals.

Strengthening socialist ideals and causes within the UK is where we should be uniting and not separating ourselves off from it for we would certainly become sooner or later a poverty stricken very bland powerless and voiceless region of the EU in doing so.

I personally just as Richard Leonard's Scottish Labour does care very deeply about Scotland and the folk within. Vote Snp and you'll see more of the likes of the Gillian Martin's being in power who will decimate benefits for the disabled and poorest in society as they blame them for their policies being fruitless.

Mon Scottish Labour!

:flag:



no you’re not. You post and repost the same half dozen or so sound bites, refuse to engage with any political debate, you ignore any questions that are asked of you, and berate anyone who disagrees with you as being an SNP sycophant.

If you truly believe in what you are saying, you should be able to:
- back up your claims by telling us how Scottish Labour are achieving the actions you’ve repeatedly described
- debate with posters of all political persuasions about the merits of Scottish Labour over other parties, not just keep repeating the same empty rhetoric (which it is and will remain until you can provide examples and vidence beyond you just saying it)
- demonstrate coherent and achievable targets with a plan reach them, as laid out by Richard Leonard

[RyeSloan]

no you’re not. You post and repost the same half dozen or so sound bites, refuse to engage with any political debate, you ignore any questions that are asked of you, and berate anyone who disagrees with you as being an SNP sycophant.

If you truly believe in what you are saying, you should be able to:
- back up your claims by telling us how Scottish Labour are achieving the actions you’ve repeatedly described
- debate with posters of all political persuasions about the merits of Scottish Labour over other parties, not just keep repeating the same empty rhetoric (which it is and will remain until you can provide examples and vidence beyond you just saying it)
- demonstrate coherent and achievable targets with a plan reach them, as laid out by Richard Leonard

I think this is all perfectly obvious to everyone including Ignish.

What’s also perfectly obvious is that there is zero intention to do any such thing.

Which is a shame as it would be quite entertaining to hear how all these ‘fights’ are coming along and how Socialism would save the day for all ‘folk’

[norhfc]

Can I just add my tuppence worth, I feel Scotland has been denied a voice in the Brexit negotiations and treated with distain. The upcoming Indyref2 will be fought on EU membership, in, we are independant within EU, out we are part of a Tory UK in totally unknown waters with a powerless Scottish Parliment.
I live in Norway, we are not a member of EU but a member of EEA which gives us access to the single market. This costs a fortune, for example, fish and farming incur 100 million euros of tariffs every year. There are no voting rights hence no say at the table. is also means we have free movement of people which is a May red line. The only reason Norway can stay out of the EU is because it has managed its own affairs very well, with pretty much the same resources as Scotland I must add, it can afford to. We are not in the customs union either which on a personal level you can really see when ordering goods from abroad, just add on 22pc ish for toll and postage. I usually order stuff to my Edinburgh address and pick it up whem I,m over. I think the UK is in for a bit of a shock if it leaves with no deal. Scotland deserves a choice, just hope the media can be imparcial this time but I wont hold my breath.

[lord bunberry]

I’m heading up to Dundee tomorrow for my first AUOB event. Great city, I can’t wait to get there.

[Moulin Yarns]

I’m heading up to Dundee tomorrow for my first AUOB event. Great city, I can’t wait to get there.

I'm heading down as well. My first AUOB event as well. I'll miss the Perth one though. I doubt we will be able to meet up, but I will have a black T-shirt with a Yes logo and 'Keep It Classy' above it.

[johnbc70]

So will the SNP listen to its supporters and call IndyRef2? That's what they want is it not, if there was a poll of SNP members surely a massive majority for it. So why they ignoring their supporters?

[CropleyWasGod]

So will the SNP listen to its supporters and call IndyRef2? That's what they want is it not, if there was a poll of SNP members surely a massive majority for it. So why they ignoring their supporters?There's a massive majority of Hibs supporters want Scott Allan back. That doesn't mean that the management have to do it. [emoji16]

Of course the membership want one. But the leadership know, as I'm sure you do, that it's not the members that the SNP have to make the case for independence to.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[andybev1]

Of course the membership want one. But the leadership know, as I'm sure you do, that it's not the members that the SNP have to make the case for independence to.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

*too :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

So will the SNP listen to its supporters and call IndyRef2? That's what they want is it not, if there was a poll of SNP members surely a massive majority for it. So why they ignoring their supporters?
Jesus wept. I've seen you ask that question loads of times now and have just ignored it as I thought you were at it. How would you know there would be massive support for indyref2? I assume you have conducted a pill? I'm an SNP member and a committed independence supporter but I don't want a referendum at the moment. I personally would wait to see just how disastrous Brexit is first. Will it be plain old bad or will it be even worse. What will it all mean for Scotland. Your question is like me asking why didn't Labour nationalise the railway, steel works etc when they were in power because surely that's what their supporters wanted

[johnbc70]

Jesus wept. I've seen you ask that question loads of times now and have just ignored it as I thought you were at it. How would you know there would be massive support for indyref2? I assume you have conducted a pill? I'm an SNP member and a committed independence supporter but I don't want a referendum at the moment. I personally would wait to see just how disastrous Brexit is first. Will it be plain old bad or will it be even worse. What will it all mean for Scotland. Your question is like me asking why didn't Labour nationalise the railway, steel works etc when they were in power because surely that's what their supporters wanted

I think you would be in the minority then amongst the SNP core support. I bet a poll at the march would be massively in favour of IndyRef2 as soon as possible. What are the people marching for? It's for independence is it not? That will only be delivered via another referendum. I don't remember people marching to nationalise the steel works.

[Glory Lurker]

I'm a member of the SNP and I'm not desperate for a referendum just now, either, JBC.

[weecounty hibby]

I think you would be in the minority then amongst the SNP core support. I bet a poll at the march would be massively in favour of IndyRef2 as soon as possible. What are the people marching for? It's for independence is it not? That will only be delivered via another referendum. I don't remember people marching to nationalise the steel works.
I've been on the marches as well. I want an independent Scotland, always have always will, doesn't mean I think the time is right to have indyref2 right now. You'll be first to know when I decide the times right 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

I think you would be in the minority then amongst the SNP core support. I bet a poll at the march would be massively in favour of IndyRef2 as soon as possible. What are the people marching for? It's for independence is it not? That will only be delivered via another referendum. I don't remember people marching to nationalise the steel works.

I think you are confusing the AUOB marches with SNP rallies. I know for a fact that not every one of the 16,000 on the march today are SNP supporters

[Mibbes Aye]

Jesus wept. I've seen you ask that question loads of times now and have just ignored it as I thought you were at it. How would you know there would be massive support for indyref2? I assume you have conducted a pill? I'm an SNP member and a committed independence supporter but I don't want a referendum at the moment. I personally would wait to see just how disastrous Brexit is first. Will it be plain old bad or will it be even worse. What will it all mean for Scotland. Your question is like me asking why didn't Labour nationalise the railway, steel works etc when they were in power because surely that's what their supporters wanted

Technically speaking, Labour have nationalised the railways twice - once under Attlee and then again under Blair when Railtrack was brought under government control as Network Rail.

They also nationalised steel works twice, once under Attlee and again under Wilson.

UK steel production is around a tenth of what it was in the 70s. Thousands of jobs depend on it but not hundreds of thousands, the way it used to be.

[lord bunberry]

I think you are confusing the AUOB marches with SNP rallies. I know for a fact that not every one of the 16,000 on the march today are SNP supporters

Correct, that’s why it’s called all under one banner. I for one am fully in support of Indy 2. Can anyone on here give me a viable option within the union?

[marinello59]

Correct, that’s why it’s called all under one banner. I for one am fully in support of Indy 2. Can anyone on here give me a viable option within the union?

I’ve supported independence for my entire adult life. I’d love to know how these rallies help to convince any no voters to change sides. It’s just more Yes supportes talking to ourselves. The obsession with waving flags is odd as well. Salmond was very careful to avoid grabbing the saltire as a nationalist symbol.

[Mibbes Aye]

I’ve supported independence for my entire adult life. I’d love to know how these rallies help to convince any no voters to change sides. It’s just more Yes supported talking to ourselves. The obsession with waving flags is odd as well. Salmond was very careful to avoid grabbing the saltire as a nationalist symbol.

Good comment.

I've asked this on here before, will ask it again.

What rational case exists for nationalism in the 21st century?

[Tornadoes70]

I'm a member of the SNP and I'm not desperate for a referendum just now, either, JBC.

Your'e leaders when soundly beaten in 2014 agreed it would be another 'generation' before pleading with the UK parliament for any future one. On that basis any second separatist ref wouldn't be considered until at least 2034.

Get over it for goodness sake, No won!

Vote Labour's Corbyn and Leonard and stop wasting your votes on a party that's on the way out.

Mon Scottish Labour

[The Modfather]

Your'e leaders when soundly beaten in 2014 agreed it would be another 'generation' before pleading with the UK parliament for any future one. On that basis any second separatist ref wouldn't be considered until at least 2034.

Get over it for goodness sake, No won!

Vote Labour's Corbyn and Leonard and stop wasting your votes on a party that's on the way out.

Mon Scottish Labour

You’re back and have lost non of your copy and paste skills 😒

[Jack]

You’re back and have lost non of your copy and paste skills 😒

You're right.

If labour were ever to regain power in the Scottish Parliament their policies would most likely be copy and pasted policies from Westminster that don't necessarily fit Scotland's needs. It happened in the past, nothing to suggest it wouldn't be the same in the future.

[lord bunberry]

I’ve supported independence for my entire adult life. I’d love to know how these rallies help to convince any no voters to change sides. It’s just more Yes supportes talking to ourselves. The obsession with waving flags is odd as well. Salmond was very careful to avoid grabbing the saltire as a nationalist symbol.
I think the point is to keep the idea fresh in everyone’s mind. It’s not just the rallies, it’s also the social media campaign that goes with it. I’ve seen plenty people saying they’ve moved from no to yes, mostly it’s been due to the brexit shambles but it’s important that the pressure is kept up. Regarding waving flags, it would be a pretty dull spectacle if the flags weren’t there, I like the fact that the saltire has become the symbol for independence.

[lord bunberry]

Good comment.

I've asked this on here before, will ask it again.

What rational case exists for nationalism in the 21st century?
The case exists because a large amount of people believe that our country would be better if it left a union that hasn’t and isn’t working in the best interest of the people of Scotland.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think the point is to keep the idea fresh in everyone’s mind. It’s not just the rallies, it’s also the social media campaign that goes with it. I’ve seen plenty people saying they’ve moved from no to yes, mostly it’s been due to the brexit shambles but it’s important that the pressure is kept up. Regarding waving flags, it would be a pretty dull spectacle if the flags weren’t there, I like the fact that the saltire has become the symbol for independence.

I would add that these marches go through city centres which are bustling with shoppers and people stop to watch, photograph, film and cheer the marches as they go by. Engaging with those people helps keep the campaign in the public's mind.

It is also noticable that, unlike Orange walks, the marches allow people to cross through them in a friendly manner.

[marinello59]

I think the point is to keep the idea fresh in everyone’s mind. It’s not just the rallies, it’s also the social media campaign that goes with it. I’ve seen plenty people saying they’ve moved from no to yes, mostly it’s been due to the brexit shambles but it’s important that the pressure is kept up. Regarding waving flags, it would be a pretty dull spectacle if the flags weren’t there, I like the fact that the saltire has become the symbol for independence.


Salmond’s view was that the saltire is a symbol for all Scots regardless of their political views. I agree with that. Hijacking it as the symbol for one viewpoint seems at odds with claims that this is civic nationalism.

[Jack]

Salmond’s view was that the saltire is a symbol for all Scots regardless of their political views. I agree with that. Hijacking it as the symbol for one viewpoint seems at odds with claims that this is civic nationalism.

I agree with what you're saying.

On the other side the Unionists had no issues waving Union Jacks during the last campaign.

Whatever individuals like us think about flag waving it seems others on both sides have a different opinion!

I think in some countries the use of national flags in politics is banned. Unless the same happens here we'll just have to get used it.

[lord bunberry]

Salmond’s view was that the saltire is a symbol for all Scots regardless of their political views. I agree with that. Hijacking it as the symbol for one viewpoint seems at odds with claims that this is civic nationalism.
It’s hardly hijacking the saltire. It’s our nations flag and we’re free to use it as our symbol. There’s always a small unionist rally at these events and they all wave the union flag, I don’t see that as them hijacking the union flag.

[Smartie]

The case exists because a large amount of people believe that our country would be better if it left a union that hasn’t and isn’t working in the best interest of the people of Scotland.

You could also add that THAT particular union is going to remove us from another one, one that does work for us.

[lord bunberry]

I would add that these marches go through city centres which are bustling with shoppers and people stop to watch, photograph, film and cheer the marches as they go by. Engaging with those people helps keep the campaign in the public's mind.

It is also noticable that, unlike Orange walks, the marches allow people to cross through them in a friendly manner.
:agree: There’s definitely a friendly atmosphere at these events.

[lord bunberry]

You could also add that THAT particular union is going to remove us from another one, one that does work for us.
Absolutely. And it’s doing so despite the fact that the majority of people in this country voted to remain in it.

[johnbc70]

Absolutely. And it’s doing so despite the fact that the majority of people in this country voted to remain in it.

You could use the same argument that the SNP want to remove us from the UK union despite the majority of the country voted to remain part of it only a few years ago.

[Mibbes Aye]

The case exists because a large amount of people believe that our country would be better if it left a union that hasn’t and isn’t working in the best interest of the people of Scotland.

Thats not a rational case for nationalism, it’s a pragmatic argument for decoupling from a political union.

“The best interest of the people of Scotland” is as spurious as the other slogans like “controlling our destiny”.

The problem is you homogenise “the people of Scotland”. How do you know what legislative or policy changes might be best for me, possibly at your expense?

Even if you restrict it to May’s administration, car crash that it is, she is edging towards a Brexit that a “large amount” of Scots voted for and won a majority nationwide.

Was it Salmond or Sturgeon who spoke about listening to the democratically-expressed will of the people?

(For the avoidance of doubt I hope and pray we manage to find ourselves in a position where there is a second EU referendum and Remain wins - though the rest of the EU will probably ensure our liabilities increase and our influence diminishes, as a price to pay).

[Moulin Yarns]

Thats not a rational case for nationalism, it’s a pragmatic argument for decoupling from a political union.

“The best interest of the people of Scotland” is as spurious as the other slogans like “controlling our destiny”.

The problem is you homogenise “the people of Scotland”. How do you know what legislative or policy changes might be best for me, possibly at your expense?

Even if you restrict it to May’s administration, car crash that it is, she is edging towards a Brexit that a “large amount” of Scots voted for and won a majority nationwide.

Was it Salmond or Sturgeon who spoke about listening to the democratically-expressed will of the people?

(For the avoidance of doubt I hope and pray we manage to find ourselves in a position where there is a second EU referendum and Remain wins - though the rest of the EU will probably ensure our liabilities increase and our influence diminishes, as a price to pay).

I think you have made a mistake about the Brexit vote. A small majority UK wide voted leave, but in Scotland, nationwide it was overwhelmingly a vote for remain.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think you have made a mistake about the Brexit vote. A small majority UK wide voted leave, but in Scotland, nationwide it was overwhelmingly a vote for remain.

I don’t think I have. Nearly 40% of Scots voted for Brexit, didn’t they?

[grunt]

You could use the same argument that the SNP want to remove us from the UK union despite the majority of the country voted to remain part of it only a few years ago.
I think you'll find circumstances have changed substantially in those few years.

[Moulin Yarns]

a Brexit that a “large amount” of Scots voted for and won a majority nationwide.




I think you have made a mistake about the Brexit vote. A small majority UK wide voted leave, but in Scotland, nationwide it was overwhelmingly a vote for remain.


I don’t think I have. Nearly 40% of Scots voted for Brexit, didn’t they?

as you can see, you said that a majority for Brexit 'Nationwide' However the facts are that 60% of Scots voted against Brexit. the small majority of the UK voted for Brexit, this was not 'nationwide'

[Mibbes Aye]

as you can see, you said that a majority for Brexit 'Nationwide' However the facts are that 60% of Scots voted against Brexit. the small majority of the UK voted for Brexit, this was not 'nationwide'

‘Nationwide’ was in reference to the UK.

[Moulin Yarns]

‘Nationwide’ was in reference to the UK.

Ok, so 4 nations wide!! you should have said so.

I rest my case, the small majority was UK wide, the nationwide result in Scotland was overwhelmingly against Brexit. :aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

Ok, so 4 nations wide!! you should have said so.

I rest my case, the small majority was UK wide, the nationwide result in Scotland was overwhelmingly against Brexit. :aok:

You should maybe just read my posts more carefully.

Who sits at the UN and, at least for a while, the EU? :aok: :greengrin

The number of Scots who voted for Brexit wasn’t that far behind the number who voted for independence :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

The number of Scots who voted for Brexit wasn’t that far behind the number who voted for independence :wink:

Number of Scots voting LEAVE =1,018,322 VOTES (38%)

Number of Scots voting YES = 1,617,989 (45%)

A difference of 599,667 or 11% of the May2018 population.

Don't you love statistics 😁

[Mibbes Aye]

Number of Scots voting LEAVE =1,018,322 VOTES (38%)

Number of Scots voting YES = 1,617,989 (45%)

A difference of 599,667 or 11% of the May2018 population.

Don't you love statistics 😁

Decent of you to back up my point.

A large amount for both, 7% difference either way.

[Moulin Yarns]

Decent of you to back up my point.

A large amount for both, 7% difference either way.

11% of the population, is not insignificant. Remember that the demographic of both referenda was different. The Brexit referendum excluded 16 to 18 year old. The indy referendum includes them.

That in itself would make a significant difference, probably another 2 to 3% in favour of remaining.

[Mibbes Aye]

11% of the population, is not insignificant. Remember that the demographic of both referenda was different. The Brexit referendum excluded 16 to 18 year old. The indy referendum includes them.

That in itself would make a significant difference, probably another 2 to 3% in favour of remaining.

Technically, 16-18 year olds weren't excluded. Electoral law doesn't allow them to vote but it was extended to them for that particular referendum. Clearly it was political but it didn't quite work out for the separatists, did it?

I'm a committed Remainer but can't hide from the fact that at the point of the Euro ref a majority voted to leave, including more than a million Scots.

To get back to the original point, Scotland didn't overwhelmingly vote to Remain, a sizeable chunk voted to leave.

I suspect both you and I think they were wrong, but it's a reality we have to deal with.

[Moulin Yarns]

Technically, 16-18 year olds weren't excluded. Electoral law doesn't allow them to vote but it was extended to them for that particular referendum. Clearly it was political but it didn't quite work out for the separatists, did it?

I'm a committed Remainer but can't hide from the fact that at the point of the Euro ref a majority voted to leave, including more than a million Scots.

To get back to the original point, Scotland didn't overwhelmingly vote to Remain, a sizeable chunk voted to leave.

I suspect both you and I think they were wrong, but it's a reality we have to deal with.

Brexit vote in Scotland was 62% remain. 38% leave. Pretty decisive. Add the disenfranchised 16 to 18 year old and you can't say it wasn't decisive.

Less than 4 in 10 votes for leave.

45% voted for independence, that is a larger 'sizeable chunk'

[Mibbes Aye]

Brexit vote in Scotland was 62% remain. 38% leave. Pretty decisive. Add the disenfranchised 16 to 18 year old and you can't say it wasn't decisive.

Less than 4 in 10 votes for leave.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here?

I said a large amount of Scots voted for Leave - more than a million, or in your words, just under 4 in 10.

That's large.

You challenged me about a majority voting for Leave, which was wrong because you misinterpreted my post. Talking about it being a 'small majority' doesn't make you correct, it's you trying to reclaim ground on a point I didn't even make?!!

My original point, to which you replied, was that a large amount of Scots voted for Brexit and the nation as a whole, voted to leave. I'm not clear how you can dispute that, or why you would want to?

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here?

I said a large amount of Scots voted for Leave - more than a million, or in your words, just under 4 in 10.

That's large.

You challenged me about a majority voting for Leave, which was wrong because you misinterpreted my post. Talking about it being a 'small majority' doesn't make you correct, it's you trying to reclaim ground on a point I didn't even make?!!

My original point, to which you replied, was that a large amount of Scots voted for Brexit and the nation as a whole, voted to leave. I'm not clear how you can dispute that, or why you would want to?

The number of Scots and the nation as a whole is the same. The UK is totally different.

[Mibbes Aye]

The number of Scots and the nation as a whole is the same. The UK is totally different.

:rolleyes:

Can't answer my points. can you?

Never mind.

[lord bunberry]

Thats not a rational case for nationalism, it’s a pragmatic argument for decoupling from a political union.

“The best interest of the people of Scotland” is as spurious as the other slogans like “controlling our destiny”.

The problem is you homogenise “the people of Scotland”. How do you know what legislative or policy changes might be best for me, possibly at your expense?

Even if you restrict it to May’s administration, car crash that it is, she is edging towards a Brexit that a “large amount” of Scots voted for and won a majority nationwide.

Was it Salmond or Sturgeon who spoke about listening to the democratically-expressed will of the people?

(For the avoidance of doubt I hope and pray we manage to find ourselves in a position where there is a second EU referendum and Remain wins - though the rest of the EU will probably ensure our liabilities increase and our influence diminishes, as a price to pay).
It’s a completely rational case for independence. I firmly believe that being part of the union is to the detriment of Scotland. The brexit vote is a prime example, Scotland voted to remain, but as we’re part of a union we’re stuck with the fact that it’s irrelevant that as a country we voted to remain. I get that a large number of Scots voted for brexit, but they were in the minority.
I agree with your last point, but I very much doubt we’ll see a second referendum, there’s too many people with a vested interest in saving their own careers to do the right thing for the country.

[Tornadoes70]

It’s a completely rational case for independence. I firmly believe that being part of the union is to the detriment of Scotland. The brexit vote is a prime example, Scotland voted to remain, but as we’re part of a union we’re stuck with the fact that it’s irrelevant that as a country we voted to remain. I get that a large number of Scots voted for brexit, but they were in the minority.
I agree with your last point, but I very much doubt we’ll see a second referendum, there’s too many people with a vested interest in saving their own careers to do the right thing for the country.

A union that a clear majority voted democratically to remain with just four years or so ago. You and a minority may feel as if you're 'stuck' with it however the majority voted in favor of it and that is a fact.

It sounds bitter and grievance politicking to whine about the union when just a mere four years ago we in Scotland had a democratic vote to remain part of it.

Its why a lot of folk are becoming fed up with the snp and their supporters who continually moan and whine about a vote that they lost fair and square.

Get over it and vote Corbyn and Leonard who can change the union to one that supports socialist ideals.

Mon Scottish Labour.

[Bristolhibby]

Just have another democratic vote on both the issues. That’s democracy for you. It doesn’t end after one vote. It continues to evolve and move on.

J

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

A union that a clear majority voted democratically to remain with just four years or so ago. You and a minority may feel as if you're 'stuck' with it however the majority voted in favor of it and that is a fact.

It sounds bitter and grievance politicking to whine about the union when just a mere four years ago we in Scotland had a democratic vote to remain part of it.

Its why a lot of folk are becoming fed up with the snp and their supporters who continually moan and whine about a vote that they lost fair and square.

Get over it and vote Corbyn and Leonard who can change the union to one that supports socialist ideals.

Mon Scottish Labour.

Have you been away on holiday?

[lord bunberry]

A union that a clear majority voted democratically to remain with just four years or so ago. You and a minority may feel as if you're 'stuck' with it however the majority voted in favor of it and that is a fact.

It sounds bitter and grievance politicking to whine about the union when just a mere four years ago we in Scotland had a democratic vote to remain part of it.

Its why a lot of folk are becoming fed up with the snp and their supporters who continually moan and whine about a vote that they lost fair and square.

Get over it and vote Corbyn and Leonard who can change the union to one that supports socialist ideals.

Mon Scottish Labour.
This tired old argument gets trotted out on a daily basis. There has been a significant shift in circumstances since the independence referendum and anyone who refuses to acknowledge that is burying their head in the sand. Depending on who you choose to believe the financial cost of brexit will be significant or worse. That’s why so many people are calling for another referendum, if we had voted to remain in the EU we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

[danhibees1875]

Just have another democratic vote on both the issues. That’s democracy for you. It doesn’t end after one vote. It continues to evolve and move on.

J

That sounds more like not being accepted than it does "evolving" in my eyes.

The problem with repeat referendum is drawing a line under a decision. If there was indy2 and it was a yes vote, it would then immediately be asked for indy3. Unless there is something that overwhelmingly wins (c.75%) then I can't see the other side stopping, and I can't see either side gaining that sort of traction.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here?

I said a large amount of Scots voted for Leave - more than a million, or in your words, just under 4 in 10.

That's large.

You challenged me about a majority voting for Leave, which was wrong because you misinterpreted my post. Talking about it being a 'small majority' doesn't make you correct, it's you trying to reclaim ground on a point I didn't even make?!!

My original point, to which you replied, was that a large amount of Scots voted for Brexit and the nation as a whole, voted to leave. I'm not clear how you can dispute that, or why you would want to?


A large number of Scots voted leave, however a larger number of Scots voted remain. (62% to 38%) therefore the nation (Scotland) did not vote leave.


UK wide (not nationwide as you like to refer to it) 48.1% voted remain, now that is a large number, the percentages from the 4 nations were:

England 46.62% remain 53.38% leave
Northern Ireland 55.78% remain 44.22% leave
Scotland 60% remain 40% leave
Wales 47.47% remain 52.53% leave

By your logic a large number English and Welsh also voted remain, the fact that a larger numbers voted leave is why we are where we are.

[JimBHibees]

Personally think there should be another EU vote and it seems to be as clear as day that nothing like the full ramifications of a leave vote were explained though you did have Boris promise 350 million pounds a year to the NHS which the day after the vote was found out to be the lie it first appeared. Quite surprised this doesnt appear to have been mooted though it would need a stronger Labour leadership (possibly) for this to gain any traction.

[JeMeSouviens]

A union that a clear majority voted democratically to remain with just four years or so ago. You and a minority may feel as if you're 'stuck' with it however the majority voted in favor of it and that is a fact.

It sounds bitter and grievance politicking to whine about the union when just a mere four years ago we in Scotland had a democratic vote to remain part of it.

Its why a lot of folk are becoming fed up with the snp and their supporters who continually moan and whine about a vote that they lost fair and square.

Get over it and vote Corbyn and Leonard who can change the union to one that supports socialist ideals.

Mon Scottish Labour.

The only political thing I can think of that's less likely than the UK picking Corbyn for PM is Scotland picking the LeopardHeart. :wink:

[grunt]

… though you did have Boris promise 350 million pounds a year to the NHS which the day after the vote was found out to be the lie it first appeared. A week. £350 million a week was what was promised. The Leave campaign was led by liars.

[Chic Murray]

A union that a clear majority voted democratically to remain with just four years or so ago. You and a minority may feel as if you're 'stuck' with it however the majority voted in favor of it and that is a fact.

It sounds bitter and grievance politicking to whine about the union when just a mere four years ago we in Scotland had a democratic vote to remain part of it.

Its why a lot of folk are becoming fed up with the snp and their supporters who continually moan and whine about a vote that they lost fair and square.

Get over it and vote Corbyn and Leonard who can change the union to one that supports socialist ideals.

Mon Scottish Labour.

Oh well, if it's a lot of folk, then that's quite a different story. I'm quite prepared to overlook the snarling, vicious war of attrition waged by Curran, Murphy, Dugdale, Bailey and Gray, and accept that Scottish Labour has managed to change itself beyond all recognition in the last two years.

They could be the party of Jack McConnell again with their ambitions for Scotland like getting rid of the "Scottish Cringe", by making us the Best (small) Country in the world. (Aiming too high would be a bit too cringeworthy.)

Only because a lot of folk think the same as me, of course.

[Smartie]

Could our Scottish Labour chums answer something that I can never really get my head around - why do you spend so much time debating the issue of Scottish independence with Scottish nationalists?

This is an argument that is largely going to be futile, as direct debate is unlikely to change a nationalist's mind.

Do you ever spend time debating with the gammon-faced Tories of middle England, whose anti-German and Islamophobic beliefs are going to drag us out of the European Union. The biggest and best thing you could do to win over Scottish Nationalists would be to win over middle England.

Scottish Nationalism is only as strong as it is right now because there is such a chasm in belief and values between so many in England and so many in Scotland, and that the numbers of those who are in England will always hold sway.

Deep down the idealist in me wants to be a Unionist. I'd like England to lurch to the left, Scotland to nudge a bit to the right and for the whole nation to be roughly on the same page.

The realist in me knows that hell will freeze over before that happens so to get the country with the values I want, the fastest, easiest and quickest way to do so is via Scottish independence.

[JimBHibees]

A week. £350 million a week was what was promised. The Leave campaign was led by liars.

Thanks :greengrin

Wow.

[pacoluna]

A union that a clear majority voted democratically to remain with just four years or so ago. You and a minority may feel as if you're 'stuck' with it however the majority voted in favor of it and that is a fact.

It sounds bitter and grievance politicking to whine about the union when just a mere four years ago we in Scotland had a democratic vote to remain part of it.

Its why a lot of folk are becoming fed up with the snp and their supporters who continually moan and whine about a vote that they lost fair and square.

Get over it and vote Corbyn and Leonard who can change the union to one that supports socialist ideals.

Mon Scottish Labour.

It would be an even scarier world if democracy stood still regardless of changes of circumstances.

We voted no and that's that is a **** argument.

[Tornadoes70]

It would be an even scarier world if democracy stood still regardless of changes of circumstances.

We voted no and that's that is a **** argument.

I don't hear anyone arguing for a re run of the democratic vote held here in Scotland just a few years ago save for the fanatical nationalists who appear bitter and very sore losers.

The vote was won fair and square by the No's. Get over it.

Is it any wonder ordinary folk who aren't fanatical nationalists are becoming ever more put off by the snp and its followers who only care about holding another referendum just a few years after they lost emphatically fairly and squarely.

[RyeSloan]

It would be an even scarier world if democracy stood still regardless of changes of circumstances.

We voted no and that's that is a **** argument.

But surely a vote needs to mean something otherwise what’s the bloomin’ point?

Should we have a rolling referendum just in case?

I would suggest that the question of Scotland within the Union should have been debated at length, voted on by 85% of the electorate then the decision taken as that, a decision.

From the very next day (remember the ‘45’) there was a determined move to ignore the result and to plan an Indy Ref2. Let’s be honest it’s nothing to do with democracy standing still it’s simply a continued determination to get a result that you want, despite what the people voted for.

And no Brexit isn’t a game changer, the polls show that it’s had negligible effect, even Sturgeon eventually had to understand that and calm her Indy Ref2 jets accordingly.

There is essentially zero polling evidence that the vote 4 years ago is not still representative of the nations thoughts:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

[johnbc70]

But surely a vote needs to mean something otherwise what’s the bloomin’ point?

Should we have a rolling referendum just in case?

I would suggest that the question of Scotland within the Union should have been debated at length, voted on by 85% of the electorate then the decision taken as that, a decision.

From the very next day (remember the ‘45’) there was a determined move to ignore the result and to plan an Indy Ref2. Let’s be honest it’s nothing to do with democracy standing still it’s simply a continued determination to get a result that you want, despite what the people voted for.

And no Brexit isn’t a game changer, the polls show that it’s had negligible effect, even Sturgeon eventually had to understand that and calm her Indy Ref2 jets accordingly.

There is essentially zero polling evidence that the vote 4 years ago is not still representative of the nations thoughts:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

So since Teresa May became the PM there have been 41 opinion polls on Scottish Independence and 40 out of the 41 has No winning.

Since Nicola Sturgeon announced her intention to hold a second referendum there has 26 opinion polls and No has won every single time.

No wonder she is not calling IndyRef2. If Brexit turns out not to be as bad a some are predicting, which could be the case, then I think it could well be a other generation until the next vote. I think Sturgeon saw Brexit as her opportunity, she is probably hoping it's disaster as that is her final chance.

[Tornadoes70]

But surely a vote needs to mean something otherwise what’s the bloomin’ point?

Should we have a rolling referendum just in case?

I would suggest that the question of Scotland within the Union should have been debated at length, voted on by 85% of the electorate then the decision taken as that, a decision.

From the very next day (remember the ‘45’) there was a determined move to ignore the result and to plan an Indy Ref2. Let’s be honest it’s nothing to do with democracy standing still it’s simply a continued determination to get a result that you want, despite what the people voted for.

And no Brexit isn’t a game changer, the polls show that it’s had negligible effect, even Sturgeon eventually had to understand that and calm her Indy Ref2 jets accordingly.

There is essentially zero polling evidence that the vote 4 years ago is not still representative of the nations thoughts:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence)

Very well put indeed.

Its despot anti democratic to attempt to ignore the resounding defeat of the vote the snp themselves had for many years been desperately calling for.

It sounds pathetic and whinging to call for another one because they didn't care for the fair and square result.

We can all throw things at the telly when the bet upon horse loses but no matter how much we'd like to have the race run again it won't be.

They'd be better accepting the defeat and concentrating on the day job of making Scotland a good partner within the UK.

[JeMeSouviens]

But surely a vote needs to mean something otherwise what’s the bloomin’ point?

Should we have a rolling referendum just in case?

I would suggest that the question of Scotland within the Union should have been debated at length, voted on by 85% of the electorate then the decision taken as that, a decision.

From the very next day (remember the ‘45’) there was a determined move to ignore the result and to plan an Indy Ref2. Let’s be honest it’s nothing to do with democracy standing still it’s simply a continued determination to get a result that you want, despite what the people voted for.

And no Brexit isn’t a game changer, the polls show that it’s had negligible effect, even Sturgeon eventually had to understand that and calm her Indy Ref2 jets accordingly.

There is essentially zero polling evidence that the vote 4 years ago is not still representative of the nations thoughts:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

The mechanics are simple and well understood. You put a referendum in your manifesto, if you can form a government to put that before parliament and then win a vote on it then job’s a good un. All the rest is just political noise.

Independence will only go away as a live issue when it is unpopular enough that it stops pro-indy politicians getting elected.

[JeMeSouviens]

So since Teresa May became the PM there have been 41 opinion polls on Scottish Independence and 40 out of the 41 has No winning.

Since Nicola Sturgeon announced her intention to hold a second referendum there has 26 opinion polls and No has won every single time.

No wonder she is not calling IndyRef2. If Brexit turns out not to be as bad a some are predicting, which could be the case, then I think it could well be a other generation until the next vote. I think Sturgeon saw Brexit as her opportunity, she is probably hoping it's disaster as that is her final chance.

It’s a huge gamble either way for Sturgeon. She has a mandate and a pro-Indy parliament. That might not come again.

Brexit has not changed the top line numbers but there has been movement both ways underneath. That means that between the people who voted yes last time and the people who now say they would vote yes there is a possible constituency to win.

Getting them all on board at once will not be easy though. I don’t know what I’d do from that position.

[Tornadoes70]

It’s a huge gamble either way for Sturgeon. She has a mandate and a pro-Indy parliament. That might not come again.

Brexit has not changed the top line numbers but there has been movement both ways underneath. That means that between the people who voted yes last time and the people who now say they would vote yes there is a possible constituency to win.

Getting them all on board at once will not be easy though. I don’t know what I’d do from that position.

There is no 'position'. The UK parliament that we all voted for in 2014 would never agree to another separatist snp ref. The democratic vote held just a few years ago was emphatic and binding. The snp and their fanatics can whinge all they like but zero chance of another vote so soon after the last one.

Maybe around another generation after 2034 or so and you might just have a case if the snp and their dreamers are still in charge.

Pragmatism not idealism rules.

[JeMeSouviens]

There is no 'position'. The UK parliament that we all voted for in 2014 would never agree to another separatist snp ref. The democratic vote held just a few years ago was emphatic and binding. The snp and their fanatics can whinge all they like but zero chance of another vote so soon after the last one.

Maybe around another generation after 2034 or so and you might just have a case if the snp and their dreamers are still in charge.

Pragmatism not idealism rules.

Yeah, you can tell that from the relaxed way you Unionists are reacting. :wink:

Personally, I’d hold a referendum every week to get the right result. :greengrin

[Tornadoes70]

Yeah, you can tell that from the relaxed way you Unionists are reacting. :wink:

Personally, I’d hold a referendum every week to get the right result. :greengrin

I'm very relaxed as the result of the recent referendum held just a few years ago was a resounding No to separatism.

There's no way Westminster would agree to another one so soon after the one the Snp Nationalists had pleaded for to be held.

Accept or be denounced rightfully by ordinary folk as agitators and whingers.

Maybe around 2034 or after you might have a case for another one.

Let's concentrate on making Scotland a good partner within the UK

[1875godsgift]

I'm very relaxed as the result of the recent referendum held just a few years ago was a resounding No to separatism.

There's no way Westminster would agree to another one so soon after the one the Snp Nationalists had pleaded for to be held.

Accept or be denounced rightfully by ordinary folk as agitators and whingers.

Maybe around 2034 or after you might have a case for another one.

Let's concentrate on making Scotland a good partner within the UK

So people who believe in independence for Scotland aren't 'ordinary folk'?

45% of the population aren't 'ordinary folk'?

What exactly are they then?

[lord bunberry]

I'm very relaxed as the result of the recent referendum held just a few years ago was a resounding No to separatism.

There's no way Westminster would agree to another one so soon after the one the Snp Nationalists had pleaded for to be held.

Accept or be denounced rightfully by ordinary folk as agitators and whingers.

Maybe around 2034 or after you might have a case for another one.

Let's concentrate on making Scotland a good partner within the UK
Most people can debate on these threads with respect, despite not seeing eye to eye on the subject. You on the other hand can’t seem to manage that. There’s no need for your aggressive tone, it spoils it for everyone imo.

[ronaldo7]

I’ve supported independence for my entire adult life. I’d love to know how these rallies help to convince any no voters to change sides. It’s just more Yes supportes talking to ourselves. The obsession with waving flags is odd as well. Salmond was very careful to avoid grabbing the saltire as a nationalist symbol.

Imagine the stop the war marches with no banners or flags, or the pride parades, or the jarrow march.

Banners and flags are all part of the day.

You should try it some time. 😋

[marinello59]

Imagine the stop the war marches with no banners or flags, or the pride parades, or the jarrow march.

Banners and flags are all part of the day.

You should try it some time. ��

As usual you ignore the point. The saltire is a symbol for all Scots, not just those of us who support Independence. However given that you have said on here that you equate your party with Scotland I don’t expect you to agree. Good old fashioned nationalism at it’s best for you I guess. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

As usual you ignore the point. The saltire is a symbol for all Scots, not just those of us who support Independence. However given that you have said on here that you equate your party with Scotland I don’t expect you to agree. Good old fashioned nationalism at it’s best for you I guess. :wink:

While the marches are held "All Under One Banner" the variety of flags and banners on show in Dundee was huge, even a certain green flag with a gold harp was close to the front :greengrin. Yes, the Saltire was prominent as you would expect but so were Catalan flags. There were German flags, Cornish flags, even a St George's Cross was evident on the march.

https://www.facebook.com/thecourieruk/videos/822760291446275/
(https://www.facebook.com/thecourieruk/videos/822760291446275/)

The next march is in Edinburgh, 6th of October, leaving the Meadows at 13:00 finishing at Holyrood.

[ronaldo7]

As usual you ignore the point. The saltire is a symbol for all Scots, not just those of us who support Independence. However given that you have said on here that you equate your party with Scotland I don’t expect you to agree. Good old fashioned nationalism at it’s best for you I guess. :wink:

It's you who's missing the point.

If the saltire is for all Scots, why can't it be flown at a auob march, as well as the st George's cross, the German flag, and many others.

I wonder why the counter demonstration only fly union flags.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's you who's missing the point.

If the saltire is for all Scots, why can't it be flown at a auob march, as well as the st George's cross, the German flag, and many others.

I wonder why the counter demonstration only fly union flags.

Were you at Dundee on Saturday?

[ronaldo7]

Were you at Dundee on Saturday?

Missed that one but, yes musselburgh were there.

Big turn out for the Edinburgh march. 👍

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39905969_10217102217857456_4832543729392812032_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=6db37690bb2362a49e0dfcdb04f99010&oe=5C0724F5

[Hibrandenburg]

https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39905969_10217102217857456_4832543729392812032_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=6db37690bb2362a49e0dfcdb04f99010&oe=5C0724F5

You just have to take a look at Wales to see what direction Corbyn's northern branch would take if they held the majority in Holyrood.

The bedroom tax is fully mitigated in Scotland but only partially so in Wales. University fees in Scotland are free but under Labour in Wales it'll cost students around £10 000 a year. In Wales they have no universal care for the elderly whereas in Scotland we do. Scotland has free school meals for all kids up until P4 but in Wales they're only available for those on low income. Also our new borns enjoy help from the start in the form of a baby box and other essentials. The public sector pay cap is still in place for the majority of public sector groups in Wales but in Scotland it's been lifted. NHS A&E results in Scotland are the best in the UK, Wales has the worst. In Scotland inward investment has risen whilst in Wales it's decreased by over 40%. Our environment is also being looked after with the SNP party working together with the Greens on many projects to protect our natural environment and including a ban on fracking which is still allowed in Wales. All in all our devolved government might not be perfect but compared to Wales under Labour were light years ahead. The SNP have proved that something can be done against Tory austerity but only if you want to, it would appear Labour doesn't want to.

[Tornadoes70]

You just have to take a look at Wales to see what direction Corbyn's northern branch would take if they held the majority in Holyrood.

The bedroom tax is fully mitigated in Scotland but only partially so in Wales. University fees in Scotland are free but under Labour in Wales it'll cost students around £10 000 a year. In Wales they have no universal care for the elderly whereas in Scotland we do. Scotland has free school meals for all kids up until P4 but in Wales they're only available for those on low income. Also our new borns enjoy help from the start in the form of a baby box and other essentials. The public sector pay cap is still in place for the majority of public sector groups in Wales but in Scotland it's been lifted. NHS A&E results in Scotland are the best in the UK, Wales has the worst. In Scotland inward investment has risen whilst in Wales it's decreased by over 40%. Our environment is also being looked after with the SNP party working together with the Greens on many projects to protect our natural environment and including a ban on fracking which is still allowed in Wales. All in all our devolved government might not be perfect but compared to Wales under Labour were light years ahead. The SNP have proved that something can be done against Tory austerity but only if you want to, it would appear Labour doesn't want to.

That'll be why the snp grassroots are up in arms over the snp's growth commission report then :wink:.

If and it will never happen the snp obtained their separation wish they would have to cut spending to levels never seen before here in Scotland.

Why vote for the snp to serve up the most devastating cuts upon public spending that would decimate public services and benefits etc when we can vote in Corbyn and Leonard who fight to protect spending on essential public services and benefits etc.

Mon Scottish Labour

[IGRIGI]

As a Leave and indy supporter I do wonder what I'd do with a vote if I was to live in Scotland :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

That'll be why the snp grassroots are up in arms over the snp's growth commission report then :wink:.

If and it will never happen the snp obtained their separation wish they would have to cut spending to levels never seen before here in Scotland.

Why vote for the snp to serve up the most devastating cuts upon public spending that would decimate public services and benefits etc when we can vote in Corbyn and Leonard who fight to protect spending on essential public services and benefits etc.

Mon Scottish Labour
Where are you getting that from? I saw an interview from the guy who did the Mccrone report the other day and even he said Scotland would be no worse off after independence. I fully understand that some don’t support independence, but this sort of pish just gets on my nerves. I could show you articles from the press stating exactly the same rubbish about countries like Malta, Cyprus and Ireland before they became independent. It’s people like you that drive people towards independence. Keep up the good work.

[Jack]

That'll be why the snp grassroots are up in arms over the snp's growth commission report then :wink:.

If and it will never happen the snp obtained their separation wish they would have to cut spending to levels never seen before here in Scotland.

Why vote for the snp to serve up the most devastating cuts upon public spending that would decimate public services and benefits etc when we can vote in Corbyn and Leonard who fight to protect spending on essential public services and benefits etc.

Mon Scottish Labour

You didn't answer the points made about Labour in Wales.

It's quite clear they are not fighting to protect spending on essential public services and benefits etc.

If Scottish Labour did diverge from their comrades in Wales would this cause a split in the UK party?

[Tornadoes70]

Where are you getting that from? I saw an interview from the guy who did the Mccrone report the other day and even he said Scotland would be no worse off after independence. I fully understand that some don’t support independence, but this sort of pish just gets on my nerves. I could show you articles from the press stating exactly the same rubbish about countries like Malta, Cyprus and Ireland before they became independent. It’s people like you that drive people towards independence. Keep up the good work.

Not just 'some' as you put it don't support separation but the emphatic majority didn't just a few years ago. Separation just isn't going to happen as there's no one arguing for a re run of the vote that took place just a few short years ago save for the nationalists. Better arguing for Corbyn and Leonard to get in who will instill a good dose of socialism.

Mon Scottish Labour

[weecounty hibby]

That'll be why the snp grassroots are up in arms over the snp's growth commission report then :wink:.

If and it will never happen the snp obtained their separation wish they would have to cut spending to levels never seen before here in Scotland.

Why vote for the snp to serve up the most devastating cuts upon public spending that would decimate public services and benefits etc when we can vote in Corbyn and Leonard who fight to protect spending on essential public services and benefits etc.

Mon Scottish Labour
You live in a dream land. SNP grass roots up in arms. Tell you what, you tell us how many SNP grass roots types you actually know or is it just reading the daily record and Sunday mail saying that and then crossing your fingers and hoping it's true? I'm an SNP member, attend branch meetings and have many friends who are SNP members as well as just voters. I don't know a single one who is up in arms. There are things that we all agree could be done better, sometimes we don't agree with everything that the government do. But up in arms against the party or the leadership of the party? Nah. We tend to leave that stuff to Labour regarding any number of issues.

[grunt]

I realise this thread is supposed to be about the snp but we seem to be talking about labour recently.

What is labours view on Brexit? Perhaps we should ask the labour leader.

https://www.channel4.com/news/corbyn-quizzed-on-whether-uk-better-off-outside-eu


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tornadoes70]

You live in a dream land. SNP grass roots up in arms. Tell you what, you tell us how many SNP grass roots types you actually know or is it just reading the daily record and Sunday mail saying that and then crossing your fingers and hoping it's true? I'm an SNP member, attend branch meetings and have many friends who are SNP members as well as just voters. I don't know a single one who is up in arms. There are things that we all agree could be done better, sometimes we don't agree with everything that the government do. But up in arms against the party or the leadership of the party? Nah. We tend to leave that stuff to Labour regarding any number of issues.

Its not me who can't get over the fact that separation just isn't going to happen. Your party had a 'once in a generation' opportunity to convince the majority of Scottish voters to vote for separation and they failed, its as simple as that really.

As i stated in a previous posting it would be far more gainful to vote for a party that will deliver fairness and opportunity in Corbyn and Leonard's Labour or keep living in the dream land that is the snp who had their chance and blew it.

Mon Scottish Labour

[Hiber-nation]

Its not me who can't get over the fact that separation just isn't going to happen. Your party had a 'once in a generation' opportunity to convince the majority of Scottish voters to vote for separation and they failed, its as simple as that really.

As i stated in a previous posting it would be far more gainful to vote for a party that will deliver fairness and opportunity in Corbyn and Leonard's Labour or keep living in the dream land that is the snp who had their chance and blew it.

Mon Scottish Labour

Corbyn and Leonard's Labour is about as palatable to the average voter as a 3 week old Tynecastle pie.

[weecounty hibby]

Its not me who can't get over the fact that separation just isn't going to happen. Your party had a 'once in a generation' opportunity to convince the majority of Scottish voters to vote for separation and they failed, its as simple as that really.

As i stated in a previous posting it would be far more gainful to vote for a party that will deliver fairness and opportunity in Corbyn and Leonard's Labour or keep living in the dream land that is the snp who had their chance and blew it.

Mon Scottish Labour
Answer the questions above about fairness and opportunities in Wales and how that would be translated to Scotland. Oh sorry, I forgot you don't ever answer questions. Also how do you feel about fairness and opportunities in local councils where Labour are partnering with the Tories for no other reason than to oppose the SNP, even when offered a partnership with the SNP against the Tories?

[lord bunberry]

You live in a dream land. SNP grass roots up in arms. Tell you what, you tell us how many SNP grass roots types you actually know or is it just reading the daily record and Sunday mail saying that and then crossing your fingers and hoping it's true? I'm an SNP member, attend branch meetings and have many friends who are SNP members as well as just voters. I don't know a single one who is up in arms. There are things that we all agree could be done better, sometimes we don't agree with everything that the government do. But up in arms against the party or the leadership of the party? Nah. We tend to leave that stuff to Labour regarding any number of issues.
Mate don’t waste your time with him. I always try and be respectful with posters on here, but he is really trying my patience. There’s loads of people that support the union on here that I’ve disagreed with many times, but I respect their opinion and I would like to think they respect mine. His I’ll informed ramblings aren’t worth responding to.

[RyeSloan]

Not just 'some' as you put it don't support separation but the emphatic majority didn't just a few years ago. Separation just isn't going to happen as there's no one arguing for a re run of the vote that took place just a few short years ago save for the nationalists. Better arguing for Corbyn and Leonard to get in who will instill a good dose of socialism.

Mon Scottish Labour

‘A good dose of socialism’ now there’s an oxymoron for ya [emoji23]

Good to have you back though Ignsh, hope you enjoyed your holidays and I see you are getting plenty of sport now you are back posting your forever repeating diatribes [emoji2]🤪

[lord bunberry]

Not just 'some' as you put it don't support separation but the emphatic majority didn't just a few years ago. Separation just isn't going to happen as there's no one arguing for a re run of the vote that took place just a few short years ago save for the nationalists. Better arguing for Corbyn and Leonard to get in who will instill a good dose of socialism.

Mon Scottish Labour
This will be my last response to you. I don’t know which world you inhabit, but if you really believe the rubbish you’ve spouted in the last couple of days then there’s no hope for you.
All the best.

[lord bunberry]

‘A good dose of socialism’ now there’s an oxymoron for ya [emoji23]

Good to have you back though Ignsh, hope you enjoyed your holidays and I see you are getting plenty of sport now you are back posting your forever repeating diatribes [emoji2]🤪
I expect better from you tbh.

[pacoluna]

There is no 'position'. The UK parliament that we all voted for in 2014 would never agree to another separatist snp ref. The democratic vote held just a few years ago was emphatic and binding. The snp and their fanatics can whinge all they like but zero chance of another vote so soon after the last one.

Maybe around another generation after 2034 or so and you might just have a case if the snp and their dreamers are still in charge.

Pragmatism not idealism rules.
If you respect democracy you will respect that it is a democratically elected pro nationalist government, simple really. You say 34 years, I say a generational shift will guarantee independence. With regards to polls, care to remind what we polled at before 2014?

[RyeSloan]

I expect better from you tbh.

Sheesh you sound like my mum [emoji23]

Twas clearly tongue in cheek and based more on my amazement as to how often people continue to try and have a debate with the Leopard than anything else!

Edit: Apart from the socialism bit...I meant that! [emoji1303]

[lord bunberry]

Sheesh you sound like my mum [emoji23]

Twas clearly tongue in cheek and based more on my amazement as to how often people continue to try and have a debate with the Leopard than anything else!
Apologies. The way he makes his points really gets on my nerves. There’s no need for it imo. I’m getting a bit touchy in my old age 😂

[Tornadoes70]

If you respect democracy you will respect that it is a democratically elected pro nationalist government, simple really. You say 34 years, I say a generational shift will guarantee independence. With regards to polls, care to remind what we polled at before 2014?

All extremely speculative and highly unlikely.

Mon Scottish Labour

[RyeSloan]

Apologies. The way he makes his points really gets on my nerves. There’s no need for it imo. I’m getting a bit touchy in my old age [emoji23]

Hee hee well I can relate to your last sentence that’s for sure and no need to apologise, I was after all indulging in a bit of schadenfreude at your expense. (Which I’m sure my mum would suggest was rather unbecoming of me [emoji1])

[lord bunberry]

Hee hee well I can relate to your last sentence that’s for sure and no need to apologise, I was after all indulging in a bit of schadenfreude at your expense. (Which I’m sure my mum would suggest was rather unbecoming of me [emoji1])
I’m sure she would :slipper:.

[pacoluna]

All extremely speculative and highly unlikely.

Mon Scottish Labour
What's speculative? Over ten years in government, including a term of being the majority government in a system put in place to stop it - that's factual.
Scottish labour are pretty much an irrelevance, Shame really.

[Hibrandenburg]

Apologies. The way he makes his points really gets on my nerves. There’s no need for it imo. I’m getting a bit touchy in my old age 😂

He makes points??? :confused:

[Moulin Yarns]

Not just 'some' as you put it don't support separation but the emphatic majority didn't just a few years ago. Separation just isn't going to happen as there's no one arguing for a re run of the vote that took place just a few short years ago save for the nationalists. Better arguing for Corbyn and Leonard to get in who will instill a good dose of socialism.

Mon Scottish Labour

If you really want socialism then you should vote SSP or Scottish Green, rather than the watered down version that is the Labour Party.

[Tornadoes70]

What's speculative? Over ten years in government, including a term of being the majority government in a system put in place to stop it - that's factual.
Scottish labour are pretty much an irrelevance, Shame really.

Strongly disagree. The snp failed to deliver their ultimate goal of separation just a few short years ago. They failed to convince the Scottish electorate and they've begun to lose seats at an alarming rate in recent elections and a few of them were key players.

On the other hand Labour are on the rise again with Corbyn and Leonard very strong leaders. We're on the way up while the snp having failed in their quest are on the downward slide.

It'd be far better for folk to accept their 'dream' of separation is over for at least a generation and instead support Labour who can make a difference across the UK and for Scotland.

Mon Scottish Labour

[CropleyWasGod]

Can anyone remind me of the most recent opinion polls?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

He makes points??? :confused:
True. I really enjoy the debate, but theres no point with someone like him. I feel a bit sorry for him, everything thing I believe in involves including everyone in the vision I have for our country. Even those who don’t agree with me. I don’t put many people on ignore, but on this occasion I feel I had to.

[lord bunberry]

Can anyone remind me of the most recent opinion polls?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

[CropleyWasGod]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independenceThanks...

It was more the party opinion polls that I was looking for. Just curious to see this revival of Labour's fortunes.

It's late and I'm too lazy to look for myself. I'll check in the morning [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Strongly disagree. The snp failed to deliver their ultimate goal of separation just a few short years ago. They failed to convince the Scottish electorate and they've begun to lose seats at an alarming rate in recent elections and a few of them were key players.

On the other hand Labour are on the rise again with Corbyn and Leonard very strong leaders. We're on the way up while the snp having failed in their quest are on the downward slide.

It'd be far better for folk to accept their 'dream' of separation is over for at least a generation and instead support Labour who can make a difference across the UK and for Scotland.

Mon Scottish Labour

Corbyn’s bubble looks to have burst whilst Leonard is another anonymous leader. Labour have a lot of work to do to convince voters to switch from what is a very poor SNP government.

[pacoluna]

Thanks...

It was more the party opinion polls that I was looking for. Just curious to see this revival of Labour's fortunes.

It's late and I'm too lazy to look for myself. I'll check in the morning [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon "remains on course" to steer the SNP to their fourth consecutive Holyrood election victory in 2021. The poll by Survation put the SNP on 39%, a rise of 2% since last June's vote. Scottish Labour are steady at 27%, but the Scottish Conservatives have have dropped almost five points to 24%. This was in Feb.

July poll -
SNP 41%
Tories 26%
Labour 25%

[CropleyWasGod]

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon "remains on course" to steer the SNP to their fourth consecutive Holyrood election victory in 2021. The poll by Survation put the SNP on 39%, a rise of 2% since last June's vote. Scottish Labour are steady at 27%, but the Scottish Conservatives have have dropped almost five points to 24%. This was in Feb.

July poll -
SNP 41%
Tories 26%
Labour 25%Thanks. That's how I thought it was.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon "remains on course" to steer the SNP to their fourth consecutive Holyrood election victory in 2021. The poll by Survation put the SNP on 39%, a rise of 2% since last June's vote. Scottish Labour are steady at 27%, but the Scottish Conservatives have have dropped almost five points to 24%. This was in Feb.

July poll -
SNP 41%
Tories 26%
Labour 25%

I can see someone claiming that is fake news, and blame it on the SNP.

[JeMeSouviens]

‘A good dose of socialism’ now there’s an oxymoron for ya [emoji23]

Good to have you back though Ignsh, hope you enjoyed your holidays and I see you are getting plenty of sport now you are back posting your forever repeating diatribes [emoji2]🤪

Do bots get holidays? :confused::wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Do bots get holidays? :confused::wink:

I know bat's hibernate. 😉

[Just Alf]

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon "remains on course" to steer the SNP to their fourth consecutive Holyrood election victory in 2021. The poll by Survation put the SNP on 39%, a rise of 2% since last June's vote. Scottish Labour are steady at 27%, but the Scottish Conservatives have have dropped almost five points to 24%. This was in Feb.

July poll -
SNP 41%
Tories 26%
Labour 25%Just shows how badly the Labour leadership are doing across the UK to be dropping away in polularity at a UK level when you see how they're, as a minimum, retaining their position up here despite that poor performance.


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/alex-salmond-reported-cops-over-13129661

At least he is no longer in politics.

[pacoluna]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/alex-salmond-reported-cops-over-13129661

At least he is no longer in politics.

He's done his bit,Scottish political landscape has changed because of him, energized a generation. A level of political engagement with regards to youth that Scotland has ever had.

What will be, will be. If found guilty then I hope he gets the punishment deserved,if not the parliamentary complaints procedure should be deeply scrutinized.

[Tornadoes70]

Sad to hear the rumours coming out about Salmond. He's not been found guilty of anything yet and I'm sure non nats like myself will refrain from commenting until the truth whatever it is emerges.

Mon Scottish Labour

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39900508_1882071021875912_6970137936020897792_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=c1a26d2c38016d6f5f9ead782f625f87&oe=5C072B46



aye, mon the Red Tories

[cabbageandribs1875]

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon "remains on course" to steer the SNP to their fourth consecutive Holyrood election victory in 2021. The poll by Survation put the SNP on 39%, a rise of 2% since last June's vote. Scottish Labour are steady at 27%, but the Scottish Conservatives have have dropped almost five points to 24%. This was in Feb.

July poll -
SNP 41%
Tories 26%
Labour 25%



looking good

[Pete]

If you really want socialism then you should vote SSP or Scottish Green, rather than the watered down version that is the Labour Party.

There's nothing "watered down" about seeing beyond flags and considering all others in your economic class as equal, regardless of nationality or creed.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Sad to hear the rumours coming out about Salmond. He's not been found guilty of anything yet and I'm sure non nats like myself will refrain from commenting until the truth whatever it is emerges.

Mon Scottish Labour

It is sad, but not surprising sadly. Both given the febrile landscape in this area, and some of the rumours that have long surrounded him.

I genuinely hope it's not true, I think he was undoubtedly our best FM yet.

[pacoluna]

Parliamentary Business Manager and Women’s spokesperson Rhoda Grant says its important that the allegations are dealt with transparency.


“It is vital that the Scottish government and all political parties make clear that there is no place for sexual harassment in our society. This is a high profile case which has the potential to cause distress for many people who have experienced harassment or abuse.

“The Scottish government must do all it can to give these complainants the support they need and to create a safe space for any other survivors to come forward.


“This is an incredibly serious set of allegations which raises difficult questions of people in positions of power. The people of Scotland will expect full transparency.”


Scottish labour on the ball of course, "any other survives" WTF. They should keep their mouths **** but nothing surprises me with them anymore.

[Tornadoes70]

If you really want socialism then you should vote SSP or Scottish Green, rather than the watered down version that is the Labour Party.

I'll stick with the UK wide Labour Party that also works at a world wide macro level making lives better for all of us.

The snp is a small minded self serving micro nationalist nanny state party.

Sturgeons a lawyer who should have known the snoopers 'named persons' charter was contrary to the ECHR but no they still crashed on regardless in the manner of an arrogant despot dictatorship.

Thankfully the snp are on the slide while Corbyn and Leonard's Labour are on the resurgence comeback trail.

Mon Scottish Labour

[JeMeSouviens]

There's nothing "watered down" about seeing beyond flags and considering all others in your economic class as equal, regardless of nationality or creed.

Tell that to Kate Hoey, Frank Field, Corbyn, McDonnell and all the other isolationist idiots in the Labour party.

[pacoluna]

I'll stick with the UK wide Labour Party that also works at a world wide macro level making lives better for all of us.

The snp is a small minded self serving micro nationalist nanny state party.

Sturgeons a lawyer who should have known the snoopers 'named persons' charter was contrary to the ECHR but no they still crashed on regardless in the manner of an arrogant despot dictatorship.

Thankfully the snp are on the slide while Corbyn and Leonard's Labour are on the resurgence comeback trail.

Mon Scottish Labour

That's scary, the denial of how much labour are finished is gnawing away at you.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'll stick with the UK wide Labour Party that also works at a world wide macro level making lives better for all of us.

The snp is a small minded self serving micro nationalist nanny state party.

Sturgeons a lawyer who should have known the snoopers 'named persons' charter was contrary to the ECHR but no they still crashed on regardless in the manner of an arrogant despot dictatorship.

Thankfully the snp are on the slide while Corbyn and Leonard's Labour are on the resurgence comeback trail.

Mon Scottish Labour

Soaring. :rolleyes:

https://image.ibb.co/dmw4k9/polls.png

[JeMeSouviens]

Sad to hear the rumours coming out about Salmond. He's not been found guilty of anything yet and I'm sure non nats like myself will refrain from commenting until the truth whatever it is emerges.

Mon Scottish Labour

I think they've moved from rumours to allegations but apart from the last 3 words I think that's the most I'm ever likely to agree with any of your posts.

[G B Young]

He's done his bit,Scottish political landscape has changed because of him, energized a generation. A level of political engagement with regards to youth that Scotland has ever had.

What will be, will be. If found guilty then I hope he gets the punishment deserved,if not the parliamentary complaints procedure should be deeply scrutinized.

I'd imagine a lot of that energised generation would pretty disappointed in him if the allegations are proved to have substance. It would certainly tarnish his legacy.

Must be a difficult situation for Sturgeon. Salmond was her mentor but now that he's taking to court the government he used to lead she'll need to stand strong to defend its position in this matter.

[JimBHibees]

Strongly disagree. The snp failed to deliver their ultimate goal of separation just a few short years ago. They failed to convince the Scottish electorate and they've begun to lose seats at an alarming rate in recent elections and a few of them were key players.

On the other hand Labour are on the rise again with Corbyn and Leonard very strong leaders. We're on the way up while the snp having failed in their quest are on the downward slide.

It'd be far better for folk to accept their 'dream' of separation is over for at least a generation and instead support Labour who can make a difference across the UK and for Scotland.

Mon Scottish Labour

That would have won the best joke at the festival. :greengrin

[pacoluna]

I'd imagine a lot of that energised generation would pretty disappointed in him if the allegations are proved to have substance. It would certainly tarnish his legacy.

Must be a difficult situation for Sturgeon. Salmond was her mentor but now that he's taking to court the government he used to lead she'll need to stand strong to defend its position in this matter.

Is sexual assault the same as sexual misconduct? I don't know, the lines are so blurry.

[G B Young]

Is sexual assault the same as sexual misconduct? I don't know, the lines are so blurry.

The allegations are of sexual assault according to the Record story.

[Moulin Yarns]

Strongly disagree. The snp failed to deliver their ultimate goal of separation just a few short years ago. They failed to convince the Scottish electorate and they've begun to lose seats at an alarming rate in recent elections and a few of them were key players.

On the other hand Labour are on the rise again with Corbyn and Leonard very strong leaders. We're on the way up while the snp having failed in their quest are on the downward slide.

It'd be far better for folk to accept their 'dream' of separation is over for at least a generation and instead support Labour who can make a difference across the UK and for Scotland.

Mon Scottish Labour

This could be the first time I agree with you

At the last 2 general elections Scottish Labour had a 700% increase in the number of seats won (from 1 to 7) , pity that when you include the previous election they now stand at 17% of the number of seats previously held (41 to 7). :greengrin

In the Scottish Parliament they have gone from 37 seats to 24 seats in the last 2 elections. That is some rise.

That is some rise :greengrin

[G B Young]

That would have won the best joke at the festival. :greengrin

I'd hazard a guess that if a poll was run asking who is the Scottish Labour leader the majority response would be 'don't know'.

[pacoluna]

The allegations are of sexual assault according to the Record story.

Misconduct according to BBC and

the guardian.

[lucky]

It’s a bold move by Salmond to take the Scottish Government to Court over the procedure being used to investigate him. For me it’s a bit like a Trump move, it looks like he’s trying to get it thrown out before it’s even investigated. But there’s one thing for sure there will be no come back for Salmond after this. Obviously my thoughts are with the two workers that have taken an extremely big step to come forward with their claims. No one should suffer any sort of harassment in their workplace

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s a bold move by Salmond to take the Scottish Government to Court over the procedure being used to investigate him. For me it’s a bit like a Trump move, it looks like he’s trying to get it thrown out before it’s even investigated. But there’s one thing for sure there will be no come back for Salmond after this. Obviously my thoughts are with the two workers that have taken an extremely big step to come forward with their claims. No one should suffer any sort of harassment in their workplace

Your minds made up then?

[JeMeSouviens]

Nicola Sturgeon statement:


Complaints were made in January relating to Alex Salmond by two individuals.

These complaints have been considered since then under a procedure covering ministers and former ministers that was agreed by me in December 2017 in the wake of public concern about harassment.

Although I have been aware for some time of the fact of the investigation – initially from Alex Salmond – I have had no role in the process, and to have referred to it before now would have compromised the integrity of the internal investigation, which I was not prepared to do. However, I was informed by the Permanent Secretary earlier this week that she had completed her investigation and that she intended to make the fact of the complaints public.

Alex Salmond is now challenging the Scottish Government’s procedure in court. The Scottish Government refutes his criticisms of its process and will defend its position vigorously.

However, this focus on process cannot deflect from the fact that complaints were made that could not be ignored or swept under the carpet.

I have been clear on many occasions that all organisations and workplaces must make it possible for people to come forward to report concerns and have confidence that they will be treated seriously. For that principle to mean anything it cannot be applied selectively. It must be applied without fear or favour, regardless of the identity, seniority or political allegiance of the person involved.

My relationship with Alex Salmond obviously makes this an extremely difficult situation for me to come to terms with. I am also acutely aware how upsetting this will be for my party. However the over-riding priority must be to ensure fair and due process. I would also ask that the privacy of those who have complained be respected.”

[johnbc70]

Misconduct according to BBC and

the guardian.

It has gone to the police so must be serious enough, don't think misconduct would be a police matter.

[Pretty Boy]

Having only had a quick look at the reports of the allegations I think Nicola Sturgeon has dealt with it very well.

There are numerous examples of such issues being swept under the carpet in recent years and it inevitably leads to a far bigger scandal further down the line. If there's an accusation of sexual misconduct then personal friendships need to be put aside and it appears she has done this and is ensuring the matter is investigated properly.

[Future17]

It has gone to the police so must be serious enough, don't think misconduct would be a police matter.

I think he meant sexual misconduct rather than sexual assault, as had been stated.

[G B Young]

It’s a bold move by Salmond to take the Scottish Government to Court over the procedure being used to investigate him. For me it’s a bit like a Trump move, it looks like he’s trying to get it thrown out before it’s even investigated. But there’s one thing for sure there will be no come back for Salmond after this. Obviously my thoughts are with the two workers that have taken an extremely big step to come forward with their claims. No one should suffer any sort of harassment in their workplace

Yes, it reminds me of a Trump-style tactic too.

Salmond, I think it's fair to say, hasn't responded well to life outwith the political front line and has probably become a hindrance more than a help to the SNP. Nevertheless, this situation must be very hard for them to come to terms with given his stature within the party.

[pacoluna]

It’s a bold move by Salmond to take the Scottish Government to Court over the procedure being used to investigate him. For me it’s a bit like a Trump move, it looks like he’s trying to get it thrown out before it’s even investigated. But there’s one thing for sure there will be no come back for Salmond after this. Obviously my thoughts are with the two workers that have taken an extremely big step to come forward with their claims. No one should suffer any sort of harassment in their workplace

It's the home civil service that he is taking to court which is reserved to WM.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The tally is creeping up...

Angus McNeill, Stewart hosie, Derek McKay, Joan mcalpine, Mark McDonald and now the main man.

This is getting into Tory sleaze territory 😂

[IGRIGI]

It’s a bold move by Salmond to take the Scottish Government to Court over the procedure being used to investigate him. For me it’s a bit like a Trump move, it looks like he’s trying to get it thrown out before it’s even investigated. But there’s one thing for sure there will be no come back for Salmond after this. Obviously my thoughts are with the two workers that have taken an extremely big step to come forward with their claims. No one should suffer any sort of harassment in their workplace

What if he's found innocent?


We are in dangerous territory if anyone accused but found innocent of something has "no way back".

[JeMeSouviens]

The tally is creeping up...

Angus McNeill, Stewart hosie, Derek McKay, Joan mcalpine, Mark McDonald and now the main man.

This is getting into Tory sleaze territory 😂

You missed out Michelle Thomson and Natalie McGarry - must try harder!

To save me googling what were all the stories?

McNeill & Hosie - affairs with same woman?
McKay - ??
McAlpine - ??
McDonald - sleazy texts?

[CropleyWasGod]

The tally is creeping up...

Angus McNeill, Stewart hosie, Derek McKay, Joan mcalpine, Mark McDonald and now the main man.

This is getting into Tory sleaze territory 😂

It often strikes me that stories like this crop up more in the ruling party than in others.

Is it human nature to attack the establishment more than the opposition? Or is it a journalistic thing? I remember in the 80's and 90's, when the Tories promoted themselves as the party of "family values", that was almost a challenge to hacks to find stories about them..... and they did.

Or maybe I'm just imagining it?

[ronaldo7]

It often strikes me that stories like this crop up more in the ruling party than in others.

Is it human nature to attack the establishment more than the opposition? Or is it a journalistic thing? I remember in the 80's and 90's, when the Tories promoted themselves as the party of "family values", that was almost a challenge to hacks to find stories about them..... and they did.

Or maybe I'm just imagining it?

Over the summer, we've had numerous stories of xenophobic, racist, councillors, and also dark money, anti Semitic, and islamophobic smears, and this board has been rather quiet.

Maybe you're right. 😊

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You missed out Michelle Thomson and Natalie McGarry - must try harder!

To save me googling what were all the stories?

McNeill & Hosie - affairs with same woman?
McKay - ??
McAlpine - ??
McDonald - sleazy texts?


Very true- I was sticking to the sex scandal stories, not the financial skullduggery.

McNeill - was he not caught in bed with two young women while his wife was preggers?

Derek McKay - was he not married before coming out after being caught in a dubious situation with another felly in a car park?

Joan Mcalpine had a fling with another MPS I believe (Mark Griffin? - left him off the roll of honour 😁)

McDonald , aye sleazy texts and i also forgot Kenny Gibson AMP going away on hols with a researcher behind his wife's back.

Quite the parcel o' rogues 😂

In all seriousness, I don't really care about 'sleaze', and CWG was right in that parties of government will always get hammered more for this sort of thing.

I just enjoy watching those cybernats on here struggle with the dissonance of admitting that they may have some flaws too!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Over the summer, we've had numerous stories of xenophobic, racist, councillors, and also dark money, anti Semitic, and islamophobic smears, and this board has been rather quiet.

Maybe you're right. 😊

Deflect, Deflect, Deflect.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I've only seen the headline thus far. What's Salmond actually accused of specifically?

[ronaldo7]

Deflect, Deflect, Deflect.

Nothing to do with deflection bud. The salmond story is where it should be, front and centre on the main news. The other stories should have been there too. Imo

Enjoy your chase. 💋

[ronaldo7]

Having only had a quick look at the reports of the allegations I think Nicola Sturgeon has dealt with it very well.

There are numerous examples of such issues being swept under the carpet in recent years and it inevitably leads to a far bigger scandal further down the line. If there's an accusation of sexual misconduct then personal friendships need to be put aside and it appears she has done this and is ensuring the matter is investigated properly.

I think she's handled it very well. Let's see what pans out now.

[johnbc70]

I see some Salmond supporters already saying its the work of the UK Government and suggesting MI5/MI6 involvement. Yes it was on Twitter but some people actually believe it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've only seen the headline thus far. What's Salmond actually accused of specifically?

Sexual harassment I think.

[Beefster]

I see some Salmond supporters already saying its the work of the UK Government and suggesting MI5/MI6 involvement. Yes it was on Twitter but some people actually believe it.

They’re beyond irony tbf. The parallels between them and the lunatic fringe of Trump supporters are striking.

[pacoluna]

Sexual harassment I think.

You think?

The bbc, daily record, daily express where all so desperate to get this story out that they all had different allegations.

[pacoluna]

They’re beyond irony tbf. The parallels between them and the lunatic fringe of Trump supporters are striking.

As are brexiteers, movement etc, every party has a lunituc Fringe.

[G B Young]

You think?

The bbc, daily record, daily express where all so desperate to get this story out that they all had different allegations.

The story was exclusive to the Record so any other paper or media outlet was initially lifting the story from there. The allegations by the former staff members are of sexual assault.

According to their timeline of events, it's a story the Record has been investigating for some time:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond-sex-assault-allegations-13130521

[Smartie]

What if he's found innocent?


We are in dangerous territory if anyone accused but found innocent of something has "no way back".

Cliff Richard and John Leslie amongst others would argue that we arrived at this territory long ago.

It almost doesn't matter what happens from here - Salmond's guilty by association.

[weecounty hibby]

IF he's guilty he's guilty, it doesn't matter who he is. I thought he was a great FM, certainly the best we have had so far. I thought he was a great politician and one who is missed. I have seen him at the fringe, I have his book signed by him as well. IF guilty I will feel let down by him but as I said at the beginning of my post IF he's guilty he deserves to be punished accordingly.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sexual harassment I think.

Harassment or assault? Both disgusting, but, legally, very different matters.

[G B Young]

Harassment or assault? Both disgusting, but, legally, very different matters.

Assault, according to the Record, who broke the story.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You think?

The bbc, daily record, daily express where all so desperate to get this story out that they all had different allegations.

Yes. This is NOT a surprise to anyone.

[pacoluna]

Yes. This is NOT a surprise to anyone.

What's not a surprise.

[johnbc70]

The Record saying they have 'startling new revelations about the Alex Salmond sexual harassment scandal'

[Mibbes Aye]

It's the home civil service that he is taking to court which is reserved to WM.

I don't think that's true.

[allmodcons]

The Record saying they have 'startling new revelations about the Alex Salmond sexual harassment scandal'

Funny, I didn't have you down as a Daily Record reader. They'll have AS hung drawn and quartered before any verdict. Joke of a newspaper. Remember the aftermath of that glorious day in May 2016. Were you an avid reader then?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Funny, I didn't have you down as a Daily Record reader. They'll have AS hung drawn and quartered before any verdict. Joke of a newspaper. Remember the aftermath of that glorious day in May 2016. Were you an avid reader then?

A very fair point! Total, horrible rag of a 'paper'. Sooner it goes bust the better.

[weecounty hibby]

The Record saying they have 'startling new revelations about the Alex Salmond sexual harassment scandal'
So in Scotland we now have trial by newspaper. If they have startling new revelations they should hand them to the police and keep them out of the public domain, could jeopardize any trial. I pray that this turns out to be a Cliff Richard scenario for the DR. WE

[marinello59]

So in Scotland we now have trial by newspaper. If they have startling new revelations they should hand them to the police and keep them out of the public domain, could jeopardize any trial. I pray that this turns out to be a Cliff Richard scenario for the DR. WE

They had nothing new, just a recap of how they broke the story.

[Eaststand]

Good comment.

I've asked this on here before, will ask it again.

What rational case exists for nationalism in the 21st century?

Would you be quite happy for your next door neighbour to decide on your housekeeping budget, and the neighbour can tell you what they want you to do with a whole range of your families day to day activities ? When you decide on something that you and your family intend doing, the neighbour could also remind you that you should nearly always consult them before you do ?

Thought not....

We are Scots, not Northern Brits, and whether we support left, right or centre political parties, we are entitled to Govern our own Country.

GGTTH

[pacoluna]

I don't think that's true.

He's taking Leslie Evans to court challenging her handling of the allegations

[johnbc70]

Funny, I didn't have you down as a Daily Record reader. They'll have AS hung drawn and quartered before any verdict. Joke of a newspaper. Remember the aftermath of that glorious day in May 2016. Were you an avid reader then?

Your right I never read it and never said I did. Plus I can't time travel as it was being reported as being in the next days edition.

Can you recall a time where a very high profile person has been accused of something and it never made the papers at the time? You seem surprised that this is a news story.

[ronaldo7]

I don't think that's true.

I always thought the civil service was a reserved issue, and although they "work" for the Scottish government, their line manager sits in London.

[Tomsk]

A very fair point! Total, horrible rag of a 'paper'. Sooner it goes bust the better.


Spot on.

But I wonder where they've been getting their information from.

The first place I would look for that answer would be the Scottish government press department.

[Tornadoes70]

Would you be quite happy for your next door neighbour to decide on your housekeeping budget, and the neighbour can tell you what they want you to do with a whole range of your families day to day activities ? When you decide on something that you and your family intend doing, the neighbour could also remind you that you should nearly always consult them before you do ?

Thought not....

We are Scots, not Northern Brits, and whether we support left, right or centre political parties, we are entitled to Govern our own Country.

GGTTH

Another bitter nat who refuses to recognise they lost. The clear majority voted to remain within the UK.

Get over it! Its never going to happen. The snp failed and is on the downward spiral.

Only Labour can make the positive changes the UK needs.

Mon Scottish Labour

[G B Young]

The Record saying they have 'startling new revelations about the Alex Salmond sexual harassment scandal'

They've published details of the complaint made by one of the staff members:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond-accused-touching-womans-13134675

[Tomsk]

I always thought the civil service was a reserved issue, and although they "work" for the Scottish government, their line manager sits in London.

Salmond is challenging the legality of an internal disciplinary procedure wholly and autonomously designed and implemented by the Scottish government at the instigation of the first minister. There is no link to Whitehall.

[ronaldo7]

Salmond is challenging the legality of an internal disciplinary procedure wholly and autonomously designed and implemented by the Scottish government at the instigation of the first minister. There is no link to Whitehall.

I fully accept that, however, is the civil service a reserved issue?

And how does that compare to Northern Ireland.

[Smartie]

This is all quite strange.

Does it do Salmond any favours whatsoever to be challenging the legality of the allegations in this way?

Surely he should be focussing his attention on defending himself? Challenging the process makes him look guilty to me.

And why do we have complaints being passed from a civil servant to the police 5 years after the event? I'd have thought that most people if they had been sexually assaulted would have been to the police directly long before now?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Spot on.

But I wonder where they've been getting their information from.

The first place I would look for that answer would be the Scottish government press department.

There will be no shortage of people ready to put the boot in to Salmond on his way down - he pissed off plenty on the way up.

It hasn't exactly leaked either, court proceedings are public.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I fully accept that, however, is the civil service a reserved issue?

And how does that compare to Northern Ireland.

There is a UK civil service. Scot govt and Scot parliament staff are part of that.

[G B Young]

This is all quite strange.

Does it do Salmond any favours whatsoever to be challenging the legality of the allegations in this way?

Surely he should be focussing his attention on defending himself? Challenging the process makes him look guilty to me.

And why do we have complaints being passed from a civil servant to the police 5 years after the event? I'd have thought that most people if they had been sexually assaulted would have been to the police directly long before now?

It was only last November, in the wake of the Harvey Weinstein scandal, that a review of how harassment complaints at Holyrood are handled was set up so it may be that the complainants only felt confident enough to come forward after the new procedure for handling complaints was introduced. Salmond would have been at the height of his powers in 2013 and as we've seen with Weinstein the tidal wave of allegations only occurred once the first New York Times story detailing decades of alleged sexual abuse was published. While it's important to bear in mind that the allegations against Salmond remain allegations, it's equally important to bear in mind that it can take a lot of courage for a victim of workplace bullying, or worse, to come forward, especially in such a high profile case as this.

[Tomsk]

I fully accept that, however, is the civil service a reserved issue?

And how does that compare to Northern Ireland.

I am not sure the term really applies. In broad terms, the civil service in Scotland provides administrative support, including advice on policy, to enable the Scottish ministers to carry out their devolved and statutory functions in accordance with the Scotland Act and related statutory instruments. Of course, ultimately all Scottish officials, including the permanent secretary Lesley Evans, are part of the UK civil service.

[Moulin Yarns]

This could be the first time I agree with you

At the last 2 general elections Scottish Labour had a 700% increase in the number of seats won (from 1 to 7) , pity that when you include the previous election they now stand at 17% of the number of seats previously held (41 to 7). :greengrin

In the Scottish Parliament they have gone from 37 seats to 24 seats in the last 2 elections. That is some rise.

That is some rise :greengrin


Another bitter nat who refuses to recognise they lost. The clear majority voted to remain within the UK.

Get over it! Its never going to happen. The snp failed and is on the downward spiral.

Only Labour can make the positive changes the UK needs.

Mon Scottish Labour

good luck with your fantasy, but I reckon there's a better chance of finding cheese on the moon. The downward spiral you refer to is actually happening to Labour more than the SNP, hell even the Greens are getting more seats than before. :greengrin

[Tomsk]

There will be no shortage of people ready to put the boot in to Salmond on his way down - he pissed off plenty on the way up.

It hasn't exactly leaked either, court proceedings are public.


I beg to differ. The Record was ahead of the game. They said it themselves. Somebody's being briefing them. My guess is the Scottish government. :greengrin

Salmond will know exactly how it works, which is why he is trying to control the message by first threatening injunctions and now this judicial review in the court of session.

[Eaststand]

Another bitter nat who refuses to recognise they lost. The clear majority voted to remain within the UK.

Get over it! Its never going to happen. The snp failed and is on the downward spiral.

Only Labour can make the positive changes the UK needs.

Mon Scottish Labour

Bitter, nah, just a wee bit sad that some folk are happy to let another Country decide their own Countries future, and bow toward Westminster.
Sad that some people don't have the confidence or courage to stand up and shout up for their own Country.

Jeremy, oh Jeremy :-0

GGTTH

[johnbc70]

Bitter, nah, just a wee bit sad that some folk are happy to let another Country decide their own Countries future, and bow toward Westminster.
Sad that some people don't have the confidence or courage to stand up and shout up for their own Country.

Jeremy, oh Jeremy :-0

GGTTH

You would be great as a Yes campaigner if there was another IndyRef. I am sure swithering voters would welcome your view they lack courage or confidence and are seen as some kind of coward by you. That would really make them think twice and come round to your way of thinking.

[Tornadoes70]

good luck with your fantasy, but I reckon there's a better chance of finding cheese on the moon. The downward spiral you refer to is actually happening to Labour more than the SNP, hell even the Greens are getting more seats than before. :greengrin

I take no pleasure at seeing very probably normally reasoned folk putting the blinkers on when it comes to the snp.

They failed to convince the Scottish electorate to separate from the UK. There's not going to be another referendum for at least another generation and not before around 2034 or thereabouts before it would even be considered by Westminster. That's a fact.

Mumping and moaning about it just isn't going to change that fact.

In the meantime the Labour party are the only party that can shape the UK into one that we all want.

Its pathetic the way some of the fanatical snp supporters refuse to accept they lost and continue to throw the dummy out the pram so to speak. They could easily start being pragmatic and get behind the Labour resurgence.

Mon Scottish Labour

[speedy_gonzales]

Bitter, nah, just a wee bit sad that some folk are happy to let another Country decide their own Countries future,
GGTTH

I try my damnedest to stay away from these threads as there's never any winners and nobody gets covered in glory, but, which other country is deciding our countries future?

[Moulin Yarns]

I take no pleasure at seeing very probably normally reasoned folk putting the blinkers on when it comes to the snp.

They failed to convince the Scottish electorate to separate from the UK. There's not going to be another referendum for at least another generation and not before around 2034 or thereabouts before it would even be considered by Westminster. That's a fact.

Mumping and moaning about it just isn't going to change that fact.

In the meantime the Labour party are the only party that can shape the UK into one that we all want.

Its pathetic the way some of the fanatical snp supporters refuse to accept they lost and continue to throw the dummy out the pram so to speak. They could easily start being pragmatic and get behind the Labour resurgence.

Mon Scottish Labour


Alright, you've convinced me, there is a branch of Labour I will endorse.

https://www.facebook.com/labourforindependence/

https://twitter.com/labourforindy?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Ese rp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10535/labour-indy-doubles-membership-and-will-take-yes-case-every-branch-scotland

Happy now? :wink:

PS I am not an SNP supporter in any case.

[Tornadoes70]

Alright, you've convinced me, there is a branch of Labour I will endorse.

https://www.facebook.com/labourforindependence/

https://twitter.com/labourforindy?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Ese rp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10535/labour-indy-doubles-membership-and-will-take-yes-case-every-branch-scotland

Happy now? :wink:

PS I am not an SNP supporter in any case.

Monster raving loony party supporter?


Mon Scottish Labour

[Moulin Yarns]

Monster raving loony party supporter?


Mon Scottish raving loony party

Actually a party that is more socially aware than yours.

[pacoluna]

This is all quite strange.

Does it do Salmond any favours whatsoever to be challenging the legality of the allegations in this way?

Surely he should be focussing his attention on defending himself? Challenging the process makes him look guilty to me.

And why do we have complaints being passed from a civil servant to the police 5 years after the event? I'd have thought that most people if they had been sexually assaulted would have been to the police directly long before now?
Defending himself from what? As of yet there is no criminal proceedings, it's the complaints procedure he's disputing and taking to court.

[Tornadoes70]

Bitter, nah, just a wee bit sad that some folk are happy to let another Country decide their own Countries future, and bow toward Westminster.
Sad that some people don't have the confidence or courage to stand up and shout up for their own Country.

Jeremy, oh Jeremy :-0

GGTTH

Isn't it time to accept defeat for now, being pragmatic, and look at getting behind a UK and specific Scottish party that will bring about social change across the spectrum?

Mon Scottish Labour

[pacoluna]

They've published details of the complaint made by one of the staff members:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond-accused-touching-womans-13134675
How the hell is sensitive information like this being leaked.

[marinello59]

I always thought the civil service was a reserved issue, and although they "work" for the Scottish government, their line manager sits in London.

Does any of this matter? Hopefully the allegations are untrue but the focus on process does the alleged victims no favours.
Innocent until proved guilty.

[johnbc70]

I try my damnedest to stay away from these threads as there's never any winners and nobody gets covered in glory, but, which other country is deciding our countries future?

England? Just a guess of course.

[Moulin Yarns]

Isn't it time to accept defeat for now, being pragmatic, and look at getting behind a UK and specific Scottish party that will bring about social change across the spectrum?

Mon Scottish raving loony party

Isn't it about time to accept that Labour are not gaining on the worst Conservative government in generations?

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/08/20/voting-intention-conservatives-41-labour-38-13-14-/

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/08/23/voting-intention-conservatives-40-labour-37-20-21-/

[speedy_gonzales]

England? Just a guess of course.

You might be right, technically that's not right though, nae wonder folk from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland think they English are telling them what to do,,,

[Mibbes Aye]

Would you be quite happy for your next door neighbour to decide on your housekeeping budget, and the neighbour can tell you what they want you to do with a whole range of your families day to day activities ? When you decide on something that you and your family intend doing, the neighbour could also remind you that you should nearly always consult them before you do ?

Thought not....

We are Scots, not Northern Brits, and whether we support left, right or centre political parties, we are entitled to Govern our own Country.

GGTTH

Your problem is that not nearly enough people believe reality is along the lines of the spurious analogy you’ve just used.

This and your next post - resentment and entitlement all in a few sentences. It’s no wonder you can’t make a case for nationalism in the modern age. Rather then trying to create anger and bitterness you should maybe reflect on the fact that the majority of Scots seem to have a different sense of what ‘our own Country’ is to you.

[Beefster]

Bitter, nah, just a wee bit sad that some folk are happy to let another Country decide their own Countries future, and bow toward Westminster.
Sad that some people don't have the confidence or courage to stand up and shout up for their own Country.

Jeremy, oh Jeremy :-0

GGTTH

Good to see the debate has moved on since 2014.

[pacoluna]

Your problem is that not nearly enough people believe reality is along the lines of the spurious analogy you’ve just used.

This and your next post - resentment and entitlement all in a few sentences. It’s no wonder you can’t make a case for nationalism in the modern age. Rather then trying to create anger and bitterness you should maybe reflect on the fact that the majority of Scots seem to have a different sense of what ‘our own Country’ is to you.
The case is definitely there, it's a just case of difference of opinion strikingly when it comes to demographics. Patience is key.

[Mibbes Aye]

The case is definitely there, it's a just case of difference of opinion strikingly when it comes to demographics. Patience is key.

It's not a case for nationalism though. It's a case for separation or differentiation based on a social construction that a minority have accepted as 'true'.

[lord bunberry]

Your right I never read it and never said I did. Plus I can't time travel as it was being reported as being in the next days edition.

Can you recall a time where a very high profile person has been accused of something and it never made the papers at the time? You seem surprised that this is a news story.
David Ike said Gordon Brown was named as a peodophile in the operation ore investigation and the government covered it up. It doesn’t get more credible than that :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

It's not a case for nationalism though. It's a case for separation or differentiation based on a social construction that a minority have accepted as 'true'.
No one is trying to make a case for nationalism as you are describing, it’s civic nationalism that we’re campaigning for surely?

[allmodcons]

Your right I never read it and never said I did. Plus I can't time travel as it was being reported as being in the next days edition.

Can you recall a time where a very high profile person has been accused of something and it never made the papers at the time? You seem surprised that this is a news story.
Quite the opposite. Totally unsurprised by DR working it's core readership up into a frenzy and completely unsurprised that you're happy to jump onboard. It's in your DNA.

[allmodcons]

I take no pleasure at seeing very probably normally reasoned folk putting the blinkers on when it comes to the snp.

They failed to convince the Scottish electorate to separate from the UK. There's not going to be another referendum for at least another generation and not before around 2034 or thereabouts before it would even be considered by Westminster. That's a fact.

Mumping and moaning about it just isn't going to change that fact.

In the meantime the Labour party are the only party that can shape the UK into one that we all want.

Its pathetic the way some of the fanatical snp supporters refuse to accept they lost and continue to throw the dummy out the pram so to speak. They could easily start being pragmatic and get behind the Labour resurgence.

Mon Scottish Labour

How to win friends and influence people.

Followed up by pragmatic and Labour in the same sentence lol

[pacoluna]

They've published details of the complaint made by one of the staff members:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond-accused-touching-womans-13134675

On another note I thought there was a general agreement on this forum that we don't share links from that **** hole of a paper.

[johnbc70]

Quite the opposite. Totally unsurprised by DR working it's core readership up into a frenzy and completely unsurprised that you're happy to jump onboard. It's in your DNA.

Your hurting I get that, your hero has been accused of some very horrible things.

[allmodcons]

It's not a case for nationalism though. It's a case for separation or differentiation based on a social construction that a minority have accepted as 'true'.

Have said before that I respect your posts but you really need to change the record MA. Are you proposing some form of interNATIONal socialism? If not, what? How do we get to your utopia where there are no nation states? Time to get real. We are where we are and some of us happen to think Scotland as a nation state has something more to offer than an isolationist right wing UK.

[allmodcons]

Your hurting I get that, your hero has been accused of some very horrible things.

Not in the least bit concerned. I respect AS as a politician but don't do heroes. If he's found guilty of sexual misconduct then I'm happy for him to get what's coming. Just don't do trial by media especially rags like the DR.

[pacoluna]

Your hurting I get that, your hero has been accused of some very horrible things.

What a childish ****ing comment.

[johnbc70]

What a childish ****ing comment.

It's obviously in my DNA eh?

[Mibbes Aye]

No one is trying to make a case for nationalism as you are describing, it’s civic nationalism that we’re campaigning for surely?

I've not read many posts on here arguing that Scotland is a bastion or a beacon to the rest of the world, upholding the purest of liberal democratic values, regardless of one's background. And certainly not on the repeated occasions I've asked for a rational case for nationalism in the 21st century.

Rather, what I've read on here is some non-specific waffle about 'controlling our (sic) destiny' and lots of grievance against 'Westminster', as if it's some strange and alien entity that doesn't feature a propped-up government and a phalanx of SNP MPs - maybe they've become house-trained?

This attempt to brand the desire for independence as 'civic nationalism' doesn't really add up.

First of all, nationalism is nationalism. Doesn't matter if it's 'civic' or 'ethnic' it's still a case of defining a group as being different from other groups. Trying to suggest it's a positive as 'civic nationalism' does, is still inescapably differentiation and saying 'we are superior to you'.

If 'civic nationalism' is about being open to all who share a set of values, then what are these values? I presume you intend the kind of principles and values that progressive liberal democracy is meant to embody.

My question is why does that need an independent Scotland? In a democracy, our legislation enshrines and promotes the principles and values we wish to promote.

Over the last fifty years, when I think of progressive legislation, I think of the creation of the Open University, the outlawing of discrimination on the grounds of race, sex and disability, the protection of workers from exploitation by their employers, the minimum wage, the Human Rights Act, SureStart, equalising the age of consent, civil partnerships, legally-binding targets on combatting climate change, just off the top of my head.

These were all enacted by Westminster or Brussels i.e. unions of nations - you can be progressive without the need for some wish-fulfilment, made-up 'we are better than the rest' self-delusion.

And as far as it goes, the SNP track record on progressive legislation is mixed at best. Scotland is probably at the forefront in the Western world in terms of its thinking on social policy and how that sits with a rights-based approach, but that's been an evolutionary and cross-party process that started before the SNP took power.

The SNP in power has talked the talk about localism, acknowledging the findings of the Christie report and purporting to act upon them. And then centralised the police and fire and rescue. And froze council tax for several years as a political tool, threatening councils who disobeyed that their settlement would be reduced by more than they could make up. So local services, which the poorest, most marginalised and most vulnerable are most dependent on, have been stripped to the bone.

They've not walked the walk - it's not been progressive politics, it's been reactive managerialism, as evidenced by the lost decade of failure to fundamentally address the key issues for our society - education and the provision of health and social care.

The idea of civic nationalism is an attractive but ultimately flawed philosophy - different yet similar to ethnic nationalism. And let's be honest, it is a philosophy rooted in the political thought and writings that inspired the French and American Revolutions.

How has that panned out? The USA, where income inequality is amongst the worst in the developed world and fifty years on from the civil rights movement there is a need for Black Lives Matter? Or France, where the far right flourish politically and if you are from a banliue your likelihood of povery or unemployment is multiple times the national average.

I din't think anyone who seriously looks at it buys the 'civic nationalism' argument - it's a desperate attempt to try and make the argument appear respectable.

At least the loons who have it in their heads that the English and 'Westminster' are desperate to put them down have the excuse of honesty. It's stupidity, but it's honest stupidity on the whole.

[One Day Soon]

Can I gently suggest that we leave all posting on AS out for a good while - I can't see that anything good can come of it regardless of your position and it will all come to a resolution at its own pace. As illustrated by Mibbes, Bunberry and AMC above, there's plenty to debate/fight over on the political side anyway.

[Mibbes Aye]

Have said before that I respect your posts but you really need to change the record MA. Are you proposing some form of interNATIONal socialism? If not, what? How do we get to your utopia where there are no nation states? Time to get real. We are where we are and some of us happen to think Scotland as a nation state has something more to offer than an isolationist right wing UK.

Put the question back at you (and see my reply to LB below).

Why would we choose to go down a path of further differentiation and separation?

In the history of civilisation, something like the EU is a miniscule event or time period. Yet, it has so far done what it ultimately was intended to do - kept the peace in western and central Europe for seventy years after several centuries of devastating and costly war.

It has taken a long time to get to this stage. Trying to extend that globally would take longer I imagine.

Not to try would be to give up on the hope that actually we can have a better society for all - and not the small proportion who buy into whatever ideology some 'civic nation' puts forward, that pulls up the drawbridge to those whose views differ and portrays them as an 'other' and inferior (while not delivering on the lofty principles they profess to hold).

The world is a complicated and complex place. We face a threat from people who don't like the way our society is organised, whose faith beliefs are very different from ours, who wish to bring down and replace our government and civic values with those that they believe in and are prepared to use violence to do so...............I could have written those words about how Roman Catholics were portrayed in Britain four-five hundred years ago. We've just about moved on from that, because we moved beyond differentiation and separation.

It may take time but ultimately there is more that binds us than separates us, and the more we can move away from artificial differentiation, the better.

[allmodcons]

It's obviously in my DNA eh?

Are you seriously suggesting it's not in your nature to be critical of SNP? Do you really expect anybody to believe that these allegations didn't give you a little glow?

[johnbc70]

Are you seriously suggesting it's not in your nature to be critical of SNP? Do you really expect anybody to believe that these allegations didn't give you a little glow?

It's the hypocrisy on here that I find so funny. We all have our political views but anything remotely anti SNP is quickly deflected or shut down. We even have someone suggesting we stop posting about something that is national and international news, all because he used to be the leader of the SNP.

Can you say if the allegations had been made of say David Cameron or Gordon Brown tomorrow we would have people asking us to stop posting anything about it until the truth came out? I don't think so.

We also have one poster who made a habit of trawling the news to find distasteful stories of political figures who surprise surprise were not SNP.

But now we have the figurehead of the SNP in the papers for his own alleged distasteful behavior and it's something we should not talk about.

[allmodcons]

Put the question back at you (and see my reply to LB below).

Why would we choose to go down a path of further differentiation and separation?

In the history of civilisation, something like the EU is a miniscule event or time period. Yet, it has so far done what it ultimately was intended to do - kept the peace in western and central Europe for seventy years after several centuries of devastating and costly war.

It has taken a long time to get to this stage. Trying to extend that globally would take longer I imagine.

Not to try would be to give up on the hope that actually we can have a better society for all - and not the small proportion who buy into whatever ideology some 'civic nation' puts forward, that pulls up the drawbridge to those whose views differ and portrays them as an 'other' and inferior (while not delivering on the lofty principles they profess to hold).

The world is a complicated and complex place. We face a threat from people who don't like the way our society is organised, whose faith beliefs are very different from ours, who wish to bring down and replace our government and civic values with those that they believe in and are prepared to use violence to do so...............I could have written those words about how Roman Catholics were portrayed in Britain four-five hundred years ago. We've just about moved on from that, because we moved beyond differentiation and separation.

It may take time but ultimately there is more that binds us than separates us, and the more we can move away from artificial differentiation, the better.

There's not a lot a can disagree with in there apart, that is, for the drawing up the bridges line. I'm not looking to do that by voting SNP. All of what you say is very noble but really nothing more than a pipe dream. I don't like what I see south of the border and knowing full well what you espouse is just not going to happen would prefer to see Scotland represented on the international stage by politicians more in tune with mine and for that matter your societal views.

[allmodcons]

It's the hypocrisy on here that I find so funny. We all have our political views but anything remotely anti SNP is quickly deflected or shut down. We even have someone suggesting we stop posting about something that is national and international news, all because he used to be the leader of the SNP.

Can you say if the allegations had been made of say David Cameron or Gordon Brown tomorrow we would have people asking us to stop posting anything about it until the truth came out? I don't think so.

We also have one poster who made a habit of trawling the news to find distasteful stories of political figures who surprise surprise were not SNP.

But now we have the figurehead of the SNP in the papers for his own alleged distasteful behavior and it's something we should not talk about.

I'm talking about you not someone else. If these allegations had been made about DC or GB I wouldn't have bothered posting anything on the board but you, as an individual, can't deny being pleased with this news story.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I've not read many posts on here arguing that Scotland is a bastion or a beacon to the rest of the world, upholding the purest of liberal democratic values, regardless of one's background. And certainly not on the repeated occasions I've asked for a rational case for nationalism in the 21st century.

Rather, what I've read on here is some non-specific waffle about 'controlling our (sic) destiny' and lots of grievance against 'Westminster', as if it's some strange and alien entity that doesn't feature a propped-up government and a phalanx of SNP MPs - maybe they've become house-trained?

This attempt to brand the desire for independence as 'civic nationalism' doesn't really add up.

First of all, nationalism is nationalism. Doesn't matter if it's 'civic' or 'ethnic' it's still a case of defining a group as being different from other groups. Trying to suggest it's a positive as 'civic nationalism' does, is still inescapably differentiation and saying 'we are superior to you'.

If 'civic nationalism' is about being open to all who share a set of values, then what are these values? I presume you intend the kind of principles and values that progressive liberal democracy is meant to embody.

My question is why does that need an independent Scotland? In a democracy, our legislation enshrines and promotes the principles and values we wish to promote.

Over the last fifty years, when I think of progressive legislation, I think of the creation of the Open University, the outlawing of discrimination on the grounds of race, sex and disability, the protection of workers from exploitation by their employers, the minimum wage, the Human Rights Act, SureStart, equalising the age of consent, civil partnerships, legally-binding targets on combatting climate change, just off the top of my head.

These were all enacted by Westminster or Brussels i.e. unions of nations - you can be progressive without the need for some wish-fulfilment, made-up 'we are better than the rest' self-delusion.

And as far as it goes, the SNP track record on progressive legislation is mixed at best. Scotland is probably at the forefront in the Western world in terms of its thinking on social policy and how that sits with a rights-based approach, but that's been an evolutionary and cross-party process that started before the SNP took power.

The SNP in power has talked the talk about localism, acknowledging the findings of the Christie report and purporting to act upon them. And then centralised the police and fire and rescue. And froze council tax for several years as a political tool, threatening councils who disobeyed that their settlement would be reduced by more than they could make up. So local services, which the poorest, most marginalised and most vulnerable are most dependent on, have been stripped to the bone.

They've not walked the walk - it's not been progressive politics, it's been reactive managerialism, as evidenced by the lost decade of failure to fundamentally address the key issues for our society - education and the provision of health and social care.

The idea of civic nationalism is an attractive but ultimately flawed philosophy - different yet similar to ethnic nationalism. And let's be honest, it is a philosophy rooted in the political thought and writings that inspired the French and American Revolutions.

How has that panned out? The USA, where income inequality is amongst the worst in the developed world and fifty years on from the civil rights movement there is a need for Black Lives Matter? Or France, where the far right flourish politically and if you are from a banliue your likelihood of povery or unemployment is multiple times the national average.

I din't think anyone who seriously looks at it buys the 'civic nationalism' argument - it's a desperate attempt to try and make the argument appear respectable.

At least the loons who have it in their heads that the English and 'Westminster' are desperate to put them down have the excuse of honesty. It's stupidity, but it's honest stupidity on the whole.

You make some good points in this post. However, I disagree with your evaluation of civic nationalism. It isn't true, IMO, that civic nationalism is 'similar' to ethnic nationalism. There is a world of difference between an ideology based upon a supposed national superiority, and a nationalism based upon independent and democratic accountability; one is exclusive, the other inclusive. The anti-colonial movements across Asia and Africa, for example, were predicated upon self-government, yet were usually devoid of any national/ethnic/racial superiority theories. The Vietnamese kicked out the Americans in order to control their own fate, not because they believed the Vietnamese a master race.

This is very different from the fascist nationalism of Hitler, Mussolini or Franco. The right of a group, any group, to determine their own destiny isn't necessarily a consequence of the notion of any kind of superiority in the fascist sense, more a desire for accountability and the ability to control those who make the law. The vast majority of those supporting Scottish independence do so not on the basis of a sense of being special, but more a desire to democratically control their own destiny. We must distinguish hyper nationalism (fascism) from those who seek national self liberation based upon parity of esteem.

I say this as someone who voted against independence in the referendum. We must clearly define the ground upon which we are debating, otherwise we become lost in a rabbit warren of misunderstanding.

[grunt]

I've not read many posts on here arguing that Scotland is a bastion or a beacon to the rest of the world, upholding the purest of liberal democratic values, regardless of one's background. And certainly not on the repeated occasions I've asked for a rational case for nationalism in the 21st century.

(Snip)

At least the loons who have it in their heads that the English and 'Westminster' are desperate to put them down have the excuse of honesty. It's stupidity, but it's honest stupidity on the whole.
You're obviously a clever chap and I enjoy your posts, even though I find them challenging.
But ultimately the above post reads very much like some of the pro-Brexit rhetoric I see.

You're very good at criticising other peoples points of view, but you never seem to come up with suggestions of your own?

Have I missed that?

Or are you happy with the status quo?

[Mibbes Aye]

There's not a lot a can disagree with in there apart, that is, for the drawing up the bridges line. I'm not looking to do that by voting SNP. All of what you say is very noble but really nothing more than a pipe dream. I don't like what I see south of the border and knowing full well what you espouse is just not going to happen would prefer to see Scotland represented on the international stage by politicians more in tune with mine and for that matter your societal views.

That's fair enough, thanks for the response. I'm not a starry-eyed idealist (honest!) and making positive change happen is usually a slow process and has a lot of false starts and false dawns, but what's almost always true is it needs constant pushing (even when that might appear ineffectual at the time).

[grunt]

Why would we choose to go down a path of further differentiation and separation?Because recent polling and election results would seem to indicate that the majority of Scottish voters want something different than is on offer from Westminster? And the current system won't allow that majority to change things under the current arrangement because Westminster makes all the key decisions and holds the purse strings.

[allmodcons]

That's fair enough, thanks for the response. I'm not a starry-eyed idealist (honest!) and making positive change happen is usually a slow process and has a lot of false starts and false dawns, but what's almost always true is it needs constant pushing (even when that might appear ineffectual at the time).

You are a starry-eyed idealist. That's why your posts make for such good reading.

[grunt]

Why would we choose to go down a path of further differentiation and separation?Because recent polling and election results would seem to indicate that the majority of Scottish voters want something different than is on offer from Westminster? And the current system won't allow that majority to change things under the current arrangement because Westminster makes all the key decisions and holds the purse strings.

[One Day Soon]

It's the hypocrisy on here that I find so funny. We all have our political views but anything remotely anti SNP is quickly deflected or shut down. We even have someone suggesting we stop posting about something that is national and international news, all because he used to be the leader of the SNP.

Can you say if the allegations had been made of say David Cameron or Gordon Brown tomorrow we would have people asking us to stop posting anything about it until the truth came out? I don't think so.

We also have one poster who made a habit of trawling the news to find distasteful stories of political figures who surprise surprise were not SNP.

But now we have the figurehead of the SNP in the papers for his own alleged distasteful behavior and it's something we should not talk about.


Seriously, you want to accuse me of protecting the SNP? :faf: You need to pay more attention.

I think discussing this stuff is at this stage largely uninformed, some of it potentially sub-judice and to be honest all of it dispiriting and low rent. That's regardless of what other posters have or haven't done in the past. For me it's got **** all to do with which Party he is associated with. The political damage that may or may not come from this will or will not happen regardless of what goes on in our discussions on .net.

If the same allegations had been made about David Cameron or Gordon Brown I may not have made the same suggestion - only because I am (by a thin, thin thread) still a Labour Party member and it would seem like special pleading.

I detest the prurient agenda of the media - and the public - and the reason we have a legal system is to deal with this stuff.

[One Day Soon]

You are a starry-eyed idealist. That's why your posts make for such good reading.

YOU are the starry-eyed idealist! :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

You're obviously a clever chap and I enjoy your posts, even though I find them challenging.
But ultimately the above post reads very much like some of the pro-Brexit rhetoric I see.

You're very good at criticising other peoples points of view, but you never seem to come up with suggestions of your own?

Have I missed that?

Or are you happy with the status quo?

Good post :greengrin

If I had solutions I suspect I wouldn't be on here so much......and you're right, I am critical of nationalist points of view, though I hope that's from a position of criticising the idea rather than the person at least most of the time (but not always, I acknowledge).

So, I think that further fracturing isn't a positive thing - why create new ways of differentiating one from another?

Going back to the EU example, it worked because (IMO) of a couple of things. There was a shared desire to find a way forward. There were broadly compatible (i.e. not necessarily similar but they could live alongside one another) social values, and there was an economic self-interest for all involved (by all, I mean from the different states' points of view, I accept that not everyone necessarily benefited).

That combination created the circumstances to move things forward and in that respect it's no different from how other 'unions' existed and flourished, going all the way back through civilisation, though I guess in centuries gone by, the flourishing didn't come about through dialogue but from the point of a spear, like the Roman Empire.

I suppose it comes back to dialogue, finding a common ground that things need to change for all and what that change looks like, and getting agreement on how to take that forward. At a global level there has been some evidence that it can happen, though it is often hamstrung by nations putting self-interest first.

Essentially though, it's just a matter of scale. Community councils, local government, Westminster, the EU, the UN are all basically decision-making bodies that feature members with different agendas and voices. Finding and defining something shared, or something that people can agree to sign up to is the hard part, but the part that needs to happen.

[Mibbes Aye]

Because recent polling and election results would seem to indicate that the majority of Scottish voters want something different than is on offer from Westminster? And the current system won't allow that majority to change things under the current arrangement because Westminster makes all the key decisions and holds the purse strings.

I've answered this before on a different thread but in reality, the critical stuff that affects us on a day-to-day basis probably sits with your Council and your Health Board.

School for your kids? The home care for your gran or your mum? Getting an appointment at the GP? Your bins being collected? The streetlight outside working? A+E when you trip going down the stair and go over on your ankle? Out-patients for physio because you've got knee pain? And all the other sundries of life.

As for purse strings, Scottish Government has held discretionary powers to vary taxation for a while now but has chosen not to use them (no criticism attached, it's never an easy sell to ask your voters to pay more tax)

[Mibbes Aye]

You make some good points in this post. However, I disagree with your evaluation of civic nationalism. It isn't true, IMO, that civic nationalism is 'similar' to ethnic nationalism. There is a world of difference between an ideology based upon a supposed national superiority, and a nationalism based upon independent and democratic accountability; one is exclusive, the other inclusive. The anti-colonial movements across Asia and Africa, for example, were predicated upon self-government, yet were usually devoid of any national/ethnic/racial superiority theories. The Vietnamese kicked out the Americans in order to control their own fate, not because they believed the Vietnamese a master race.

This is very different from the fascist nationalism of Hitler, Mussolini or Franco. The right of a group, any group, to determine their own destiny isn't necessarily a consequence of the notion of any kind of superiority in the fascist sense, more a desire for accountability and the ability to control those who make the law. The vast majority of those supporting Scottish independence do so not on the basis of a sense of being special, but more a desire to democratically control their own destiny. We must distinguish hyper nationalism (fascism) from those who seek national self liberation based upon parity of esteem.

I say this as someone who voted against independence in the referendum. We must clearly define the ground upon which we are debating, otherwise we become lost in a rabbit warren of misunderstanding.

Take your point but civic nationalism is only inclusive if you sign up to the value base of the nation. And it still rests on the idea of 'nation', differentiated from others. Nationalism is nationalism, whether it's being spun as 'blood and soil' or spun as something philosophical.

And it doesn't really work, does it? Hence my reference to Black Lives Matter and the banliues.

[ronaldo7]

There is a UK civil service. Scot govt and Scot parliament staff are part of that.

You missed the part about Northern Ireland.


Are they independent of the UK civil service?

[ronaldo7]

I am not sure the term really applies. In broad terms, the civil service in Scotland provides administrative support, including advice on policy, to enable the Scottish ministers to carry out their devolved and statutory functions in accordance with the Scotland Act and related statutory instruments. Of course, ultimately all Scottish officials, including the permanent secretary Lesley Evans, are part of the UK civil service.

So, her line manager is domiciled in London... Correct?

[ronaldo7]

Does any of this matter? Hopefully the allegations are untrue but the focus on process does the alleged victims no favours.
Innocent until proved guilty.

I'd have thought the process matters, especially if you're on the end of a sexual assault charge.

Shirley it would be good to know for "all" concerned, especially the alleged victims.

How the hell, the daily rancid has got hold of this information is anyone's guess, unless they have insiders willing to leak from the civil service.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Take your point but civic nationalism is only inclusive if you sign up to the value base of the nation. And it still rests on the idea of 'nation', differentiated from others. Nationalism is nationalism, whether it's being spun as 'blood and soil' or spun as something philosophical.

And it doesn't really work, does it? Hence my reference to Black Lives Matter and the banliues.

But unless we abolish all nation states, we will always retain the idea of nationhood. Yet it needn't be a racist idea: nationhood as defined by the principles of the French revolution - Liberty, equality, fraternity - is a very different idea of nationhood from fascist hyper-nationalism. It's democratic accountability versus racist national supremacy; the desire to set a responsive public policy versus 'blood and soil'. The only way to truly circumvent any idea of nationhood would be to dissolve all nation states, but that would inevitably leave billions of people feeling they aren't listened to by their government. Alternatively we could go down the anarchist route of direct democracy and no government (which I would welcome) but it isn't a realistic alternative just now.

[Mibbes Aye]

But unless we abolish all nation states, we will always retain the idea of nationhood. Yet it needn't be a racist idea: nationhood as defined by the principles of the French revolution - Liberty, equality, fraternity - is a very different idea of nationhood from fascist hyper-nationalism. It's democratic accountability versus racist national supremacy; the desire to set a responsive public policy versus 'blood and soil'. The only way to truly circumvent any idea of nationhood would be to dissolve all nation states, but that would inevitably leave billions of people feeling they aren't listened to by their government. Alternatively we could go down the anarchist route of direct democracy and no government (which I would welcome) but it isn't a realistic alternative just now.

You don't need to abolish or dissolve nations, you just need to subsume them into a more important structure of common good.

Liberty, equality and fraternity doesn't ring true in France if you are black or of Arab descent. Life chances for those in the banliues are much,much worse than the averages

[Hibernia&Alba]

You don't need to abolish or dissolve nations, you just need to subsume them into a more important structure of common good.

Liberty, equality and fraternity doesn't ring true in France if you are black or of Arab descent. Life chances for those in the banliues are much,much worse than the averages

I'm an internationalist, but I don't think national identity need always be negative/dangerous. On the contrary, it can promote stability and give people their political/social bearings. At the other end of the scale, it can be racist/xenophobic; yet there is a huge grey area in between, so that parties such as the SNP are million miles away from the hyper nationalism of the BNP. We must be careful to differentiate between what are completely different ideologies, even though they are both named 'National Party'.

You are right in relation to the lives of ethnic minorities in any country you care to mention, but that is a different issue from a discussion upon the meaning of civic and racial nationalisms.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm an internationalist, but I don't think national identity need always be negative/dangerous. On the contrary, it can promote stability and give people their political/social bearings. At the other end of the scale, it can be racist/xenophobic; yet there is a huge grey area in between, so that parties such as the SNP are million miles away from the hyper nationalism of the BNP. We must be careful to differentiate between what are completely different ideologies, even though they are both named 'National Party'.

You are right in relation to the lives of ethnic minorities in any country you care to mention, but that is a different issue from a discussion upon the meaning of civic and racial nationalisms.

Fair comments, but for me the idea of civic nationalism is undermined by the fact that it doesn't do what it says on the tin.

There isn't equality of opportunity should you be signed up to the value base.

That's a shame and I genuinely mean that. At the same time, the Western notion of liberal democracy, which underpinned the French and American Revolutions and is the philosophical base for civic nationalism as defined in this context is both relatively new (in terms of its impact in the Western world) and also relatively old - some of the tenets of Shia Islam are remarkably similar to the thought processes of the classic Western liberal theorists.

Perhaps, as with arithmetic and algebra we have assimilated more from 'others' than we tend to acknowledge :greengrin

I guess we are at just another staging post in the evolution of our species. I don't think we are more cosmopolitan or outward-looking than we have ever been - there are moments in history where quite clearly there was an appetite to share and mingle knowledge and belief - but I do think the last thing we need to do is to retreat and create another reason to make me and you 'us' and make someone else 'them'.

[lucky]

I'd have thought the process matters, especially if you're on the end of a sexual assault charge.

Shirley it would be good to know for "all" concerned, especially the alleged victims.

How the hell, the daily rancid has got hold of this information is anyone's guess, unless they have insiders willing to leak from the civil service.

It might have been leaked to the press as civil servants were unhappy with how the case was being handled by the Scottish government. Now that it’s in the public domain AS will be answerable in a transparent way. If he’s innocent then the evidence will be well known to the public. Taking legal action smacks of desperation, he should proving his innocence rather than attacking the investigation process

[Tomsk]

So, her line manager is domiciled in London... Correct?

Lesley Evans reports to Jeremy Heywood, the head of civil service. His office is in Whitehall. I don't know where he actually lives.

May I ask you a direct question? Do you believe 'London', 'Whitehall', 'Westminster', the 'head of the civil service' or whatever you want to call it is any way involved in the disciplinary investigations that Scottish government officials have carried out respecting the conduct of Alex Salmond as reported this week? And if you do believe 'London' or whatever is involved what is the nature of the involvement?

I will put my cards on the table. I think the extent of London's involvement in RACI terms will be 'informed'.

[Tomsk]

It might have been leaked to the press as civil servants were unhappy with how the case was being handled by the Scottish government. Now that it’s in the public domain AS will be answerable in a transparent way. If he’s innocent then the evidence will be well known to the public. Taking legal action smacks of desperation, he should proving his innocence rather than attacking the investigation process

It's more likely that it's a controlled leak from the Scottish government itself. Completely deniable, of course. :greengrin

Taking a wild guess here but it wouldn't surprise me if they've been feeding information to chosen journalists for some time -- what the Daily Record has been calling its 'investigations' -- and instructing them to hold back until they get the green light to publish.

I don't have a problem with it. They need to control the message. If they don't, Salmond will run rings round them and leave a trail of damage in his wake.

Salmond knows every trick in the book. At the moment he's playing the wronged victim of government bureaucracy reluctantly bringing this sorry episode to the nation's attention but all for a greater good -- and he's doing it very well. Sturgeon, of course, has to appear to be above it all, clearly personally disappointed but absolutely unsullied by any actual hands-on involvement in the process, ready to exonerate or condemn whatever way the wind blows -- and she's doing it very well.

It's fascinating to watch.

[johnbc70]

Lesley Evans reports to Jeremy Heywood, the head of civil service. His office is in Whitehall. I don't know where he actually lives.

May I ask you a direct question? Do you believe 'London', 'Whitehall', 'Westminster', the 'head of the civil service' or whatever you want to call it is any way involved in the disciplinary investigations that Scottish government officials have carried out respecting the conduct of Alex Salmond as reported this week? And if you do believe 'London' or whatever is involved what is the nature of the involvement?

I will put my cards on the table. I think the extent of London's involvement in RACI terms will be 'informed'.

I do wonder what is with the obsession with where her line manager is based?

By establishing she has some kind of reporting line into London is that implying this is some kind of set up by the big bad people in Westminster.

[Jack]

Is Salmond not complaining that he never got the opportunity for input into the investigation? I can see his point.

[johnbc70]

Is Salmond not complaining that he never got the opportunity for input into the investigation? I can see his point.

No he will have his say I am sure. Is it not the fact the process is being done under the Scottish government internal process and he has not been a Scottish minister for a while now.

It's a bit like your employer from a few years ago raising a complaint against you even although you don't work there anymore.

I think.

[Chic Murray]

If you've ever been accused of something you didn't do. It is natural to question the competence of the people investigating you.

You need to be reassured that due process is understood and that it will be followed correctly. As anybody who has ever been involved in HR will tell you, it is very common for stupid mistakes to be made in investigations, such as the way that evidence is gathered, and transparency of information to all sides.

On the Salmond story, I think it's actually the SNP that's behind this. I'm sure many of them see Salmond as a threat to their position, not least Nicola Sturgeon, who has not been setting the heather on fire, in my book.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If you've ever been accused of something you didn't do. It is natural to question the competence of the people investigating you.

You need to be reassured that due process is understood and that it will be followed correctly. As anybody who has ever been involved in HR will tell you, it is very common for stupid mistakes to be made in investigations, such as the way that evidence is gathered, and transparency of information to all sides.

On the Salmond story, I think it's actually the SNP that's behind this. I'm sure many of them see Salmond as a threat to their position, not least Nicola Sturgeon, who has not been setting the heather on fire, in my book.

Seriously? I've discussed the dark arts in politics in the Corbyn thread, in relation to the anti-Semitism controversy, but the idea that people within the SNP are responsible for the story about Salmond, would take it to another level. It will all come out in the wash. If an innocent person is accused of such thing, particularly in public, it must be a humiliating experience. Reputations a long time in the making can be destroyed in days; but is anonymity until the verdict practicable with a free press?

[Chic Murray]

Seriously? I've discussed the dark arts in politics in the Corbyn thread, in relation to the anti-Semitism controversy, but the idea that people within the SNP are responsible for the story about Salmond, would take it to another level. It will all come out in the wash. If an innocent person is accused of such thing, particularly in public, it must be a humiliating experience. Reputations a long time in the making can be destroyed in days; but is anonymity until the verdict practicable with a free press?

Sorry, but I think that is exactly how politicians of all parties operate. They are narcissists and egotists, and it's entirely logical to me that they see politicians of every party as obstacles to their personal glory.

Remember what Eck said after the last general election? "I'll be back".

Can't have been comforting for people in the line of succession.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Sorry, but I think that is exactly how politicians of all parties operate. They are narcissists and egotists, and it's entirely logical to me that they see politicians of every party as obstacles to their personal glory.

Remember what Eck said after the last general election? "I'll be back".

Can't have been comforting for people in the line of succession.


of course he will be back, trying to win back the Gordon seat at the next GE