SNP nonsense

[ronaldo7]

Scotland rated best place in UK to start a business :aok:

That'll no be oan the list then.:greengrin

[Future17]

Isn't the job at PMQs to question the PM on issues impacting the whole of the UK?

What are those Scottish tory MPs doing? Seems they just want to talk down the Scottish Government at every opportunity instead.

When it comes to the conduct of PMQs, I make no distinction between MPs of any of the parties.

IMHO, it's not the job of the person I elected to represent me to shout, jeer, heckle and generally act like they're on a stag/hen weekend whilst they're supposed to be discussing important matters. I know very little about this specific MP, but the vast majority on both side of the House appear to conduct themselves in this way.

There's nothing redeeming about PMQs and it's not representative of what I consider the job of an MP should be.

[Moulin Yarns]

Care to list yer list. 😲

He is feeling listless :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

When it comes to the conduct of PMQs, I make no distinction between MPs of any of the parties.

IMHO, it's not the job of the person I elected to represent me to shout, jeer, heckle and generally act like they're on a stag/hen weekend whilst they're supposed to be discussing important matters. I know very little about this specific MP, but the vast majority on both side of the House appear to conduct themselves in this way.

There's nothing redeeming about PMQs and it's not representative of what I consider the job of an MP should be.

I don't disagree with you. However, it is what it is. MPs heckle one another and try to score cheap points over each other. Perhaps the way PMQs are conducted would be improved if our dear primeminister would actually answer a question.

[SHODAN]

Yep, never mind the shame of rising inequality and poverty, yet another rise in retirement age and the complete shambles of brexit, all over seen by the tories.

Nope, lets get outraged over what somebody wears at work. Those are the real sort of issues we should be focusing on.

Spot on.

[lucky]

There's a lot more issues to be getting worked up about than her wearing a football top but I wish she put as much thought and energy into trying to stop the HMRC jobs leaving Livingston

[Future17]

I don't disagree with you. However, it is what it is. MPs heckle one another and try to score cheap points over each other. Perhaps the way PMQs are conducted would be improved if our dear primeminister would actually answer a question.

So we shouldn't strive to improve it, or criticise those involved?


Yep, never mind the shame of rising inequality and poverty, yet another rise in retirement age and the complete shambles of brexit, all over seen by the tories.

Nope, lets get outraged over what somebody wears at work. Those are the real sort of issues we should be focusing on.

It is what it is.

[marinello59]

I don't disagree with you. However, it is what it is. MPs heckle one another and try to score cheap points over each other. Perhaps the way PMQs are conducted would be improved if our dear primeminister would actually answer a question.

It's exactly the same with First Ministers questions now, Sturgeon does nothing more than evade and deflect. It is what it is though. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

There's a lot more issues to be getting worked up about than her wearing a football top but I wish she put as much thought and energy into trying to stop the HMRC jobs leaving Livingston

Number 10 on the list. You're mob told people to vote No, and save the HMRC jobs. Better Together my arse.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/holyrood/870775/17-broken-promises-better-together-campaign-revealed-independence-day/

Meanwhile Hannah gets on with the day job. What more do you think she could do?

http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/government-slammed-for-re-locating-hmrc-centres/16618.article

http://hannahbardellmp.scot/local-mp-fights-for-local-jobs/

http://hannahbardellmp.scot/week-of-action-to-save-hmrc-jobs-in-west-lothian/

http://hannahbardellmp.scot/hannah-bardell-mp-meets-financial-secretary-to-the-treasury-to-campaign-against-hmrc-relocations/

[Betty Boop]

There's a lot more issues to be getting worked up about than her wearing a football top but I wish she put as much thought and energy into trying to stop the HMRC jobs leaving Livingston

Did you know there's a new HMRC being built in New Street ?

[High-On-Hibs]

So we shouldn't strive to improve it, or criticise those involved?



It is what it is.

I never said we shouldn't. But it starts with the "highers up" and they really don't give a toss.

[High-On-Hibs]

Number 10 on the list. You're mob told people to vote No, and save the HMRC jobs. Better Together my arse.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/holyrood/870775/17-broken-promises-better-together-campaign-revealed-independence-day/

Meanwhile Hannah gets on with the day job. What more do you think she could do?

http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/government-slammed-for-re-locating-hmrc-centres/16618.article

http://hannahbardellmp.scot/local-mp-fights-for-local-jobs/

http://hannahbardellmp.scot/week-of-action-to-save-hmrc-jobs-in-west-lothian/

http://hannahbardellmp.scot/hannah-bardell-mp-meets-financial-secretary-to-the-treasury-to-campaign-against-hmrc-relocations/

Good post, don't expect any responses (excluding this one)

[Future17]

I never said we shouldn't. But it starts with the "highers up" and they really don't give a toss.

Sorry, I obviously misunderstood what you meant by "it is what it is". What did you mean by that?

Who are the "highers up" who are responsible for the behaviour of MPs in the House of Commons, if not the MPs themselves?

[lucky]

Did you know there's a new HMRC being built in New Street ?

New Street in Edinburgh? So jobs more jobs leaving West Lothian

[lucky]

Number 10 on the list. You're mob told people to vote No, and save the HMRC jobs. Better Together my arse.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/holyrood/870775/17-broken-promises-better-together-campaign-revealed-independence-day/

Meanwhile Hannah gets on with the day job. What more do you think she could do?

http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/government-slammed-for-re-locating-hmrc-centres/16618.article

http://hannahbardellmp.scot/local-mp-fights-for-local-jobs/

http://hannahbardellmp.scot/week-of-action-to-save-hmrc-jobs-in-west-lothian/

http://hannahbardellmp.scot/hannah-bardell-mp-meets-financial-secretary-to-the-treasury-to-campaign-against-hmrc-relocations/

Quotes from her own website, I'm sure she's busy in her own mind. She's been more vocal on woman's football that West Lothian jobs. I'm sure at the next election her constituents will remember her priorities

[Betty Boop]

New Street in Edinburgh? So jobs more jobs leaving West Lothian

Yea next to Waverley Court

[RyeSloan]

Quotes from her own website, I'm sure she's busy in her own mind. She's been more vocal on woman's football that West Lothian jobs. I'm sure at the next election her constituents will remember her priorities

Did you read the links? The last one in particular shows she has been meeting just the type of people that she should be to get her (reasonable sounding, without any petty party political sound bites) point across.

I was no fan of the Scotland top stunt but can see that she has clearly spent time and effort on the HMRC thing.

[lucky]

Did you read the links? The last one in particular shows she has been meeting just the type of people that she should be to get her (reasonable sounding, without any petty party political sound bites) point across.

I was no fan of the Scotland top stunt but can see that she has clearly spent time and effort on the HMRC thing.

Very rarely read links posted by our resident SNP staffer. TBF at least it's not Wings he using this time

[JeMeSouviens]

Very rarely read links posted by our resident SNP staffer. TBF at least it's not Wings he using this time

What, and you're the voice of impartiality? :rolleyes:

[lucky]

What, and you're the voice of impartiality? :rolleyes:

One tries 😄😂😁

[ronaldo7]

There's a lot more issues to be getting worked up about than her wearing a football top but I wish she put as much thought and energy into trying to stop the HMRC jobs leaving Livingston


Very rarely read links posted by our resident SNP staffer. TBF at least it's not Wings he using this time

So your statement about her not putting as much energy into trying to stop the HMRC jobs leaving Livingston is bull then. She's out their doing her job, unlike some.

Findlay's little helper is showing his true SNP bashing colours again.:rolleyes:

[lucky]

So your statement about her not putting as much energy into trying to stop the HMRC jobs leaving Livingston is bull then. She's out their doing her job, unlike some.

Findlay's little helper is showing his true SNP bashing colours again.:rolleyes:

Findlay's little helper made me smile,:aok: I might even mention it to him next time I see him. As Hannah the invisible can't think of any time she's actually managed to save jobs in West Lothian but hey ho at least she wore a Scotland top and does some keepy uppies. TBF to you that's the closest you've came to commenting on football on this form.

Always happy to bash the SNP when they are not doing the day job

[ronaldo7]

Findlay's little helper made me smile,:aok: I might even mention it to him next time I see him. As Hannah the invisible can't think of any time she's actually managed to save jobs in West Lothian but hey ho at least she wore a Scotland top and does some keepy uppies. TBF to you that's the closest you've came to commenting on football on this form.

Always happy to bash the SNP when they are not doing the day job

I see the work of Alan Roden is paying off with the Left of the party now.:greengrin

His communication is as good as your comments on fitba:aok:

Here, take a wee trip down and see her yerself instead of whining on here.:greengrin

19026

[pacoluna]

fraud case against Michelle Thomson has been dropped.

[ronaldo7]

fraud case against Michelle Thomson has been dropped.

:agree:

The Crown Office has now concluded that there should be "no criminal proceedings at this time".
It said this was due to an "absence of sufficient credible and reliable evidence", with the decision coming after "careful consideration of the facts and circumstances of the case".
Mrs Thomson had always strongly denied any wrongdoing.

I wonder how the Sunday Mail et al will spin this.

Just for (Un)Lucky https://wingsoverscotland.com/choco-ration-soars-again/

[speedy_gonzales]

:agree:

The Crown Office has now concluded that there should be "no criminal proceedings at this time".
It said this was due to an "absence of sufficient credible and reliable evidence", with the decision coming after "careful consideration of the facts and circumstances of the case".
Mrs Thomson had always strongly denied any wrongdoing.

I wonder how the Sunday Mail et al will spin this.

Just for (Un)Lucky https://wingsoverscotland.com/choco-ration-soars-again/ I've replied on the Thomson thread, I don't believe what she and her business did was illegal, but surely there are morality questions and if so was she a candidate you want your party to stand by?
Her business bought properties under stress sales and paid less than market value then immediately resold at a higher rate with the required finance in place. Buy at £64K, sell at £95K on the same day and pocket the difference. Buy at £245K and sell at £315K the same day? Astute business acumen or somebody taking advantage?

Her legal partner was struck off because of irregularities re the finance deals which were nothing if not fraud.

She has claimed to know nothing about this, possible, but my sceptical mind thinks she knew but distanced herself once her political career took off as data would suggest.

If this had been Joe Bloggs it wouldn't have made the tabloids, but a complaint had been made by one of the vendors and the media took a bite. I'd also suggest this behaviour is more akin to another party but because she 'was' SNP it would seem that that the average person can't bring themselves to point the finger. Had this been a Tory we'd be baying for blood!

[ronaldo7]

I've replied on the Thomson thread, I don't believe what she and her business did was illegal, but surely there are morality questions and if so was she a candidate you want your party to stand by?
Her business bought properties under stress sales and paid less than market value then immediately resold at a higher rate with the required finance in place. Buy at £64K, sell at £95K on the same day and pocket the difference. Buy at £245K and sell at £315K the same day? Astute business acumen or somebody taking advantage?

Her legal partner was struck off because of irregularities re the finance deals which were nothing if not fraud.

She has claimed to know nothing about this, possible, but my sceptical mind thinks she knew but distanced herself once her political career took off as data would suggest.

If this had been Joe Bloggs it wouldn't have made the tabloids, but a complaint had been made by one of the vendors and the media took a bite. I'd also suggest this behaviour is more akin to another party but because she 'was' SNP it would seem that that the average person can't bring themselves to point the finger. Had this been a Tory we'd be baying for blood!


Seen it mate.:aok:

I think the SNP did the right thing when the story broke, she removed the whip herself, and was therefor not eligible to stand as an SNP MP, unlike some other parties. The media went for her big time, and if their was anything illegal going on, they'd have found it.

Fortunately, the law in Scotland, you can't be found guilty by extension of someone else's guilt, when you yourself have done nothing wrong.

The morality of it all is a different matter.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-40947422

Scotland's employment rate hit a record high in the three months to June, according to official figures.
The number of people in work in Scotland reached 2,650,000, or 75.2%, a rise of 1.1 percentage points over the quarter.
Meanwhile, Scottish unemployment fell by 12,000 to stand at 107,000.


thankfully we have a very competent SNP in charge of running this country :agree: the tories and corbyns scottish branch party would reverse those good trends...FACT

[heretoday]

It's all up in the air innit?

[High-On-Hibs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-40947422

Scotland's employment rate hit a record high in the three months to June, according to official figures.
The number of people in work in Scotland reached 2,650,000, or 75.2%, a rise of 1.1 percentage points over the quarter.
Meanwhile, Scottish unemployment fell by 12,000 to stand at 107,000.


thankfully we have a very competent SNP in charge of running this country :agree: the tories and corbyns scottish branch party would reverse those good trends...FACT

However, the way the media are twisting it, you'd get the impression that it's our employment rate going down and the rest of the UKs employment rate going up. They're great when it comes to wording things in ways that give the opposition impression.

Infuriating when people attack this Scottish Government based on headlines, rather than actually looking at the cold hard statistics.

[CropleyWasGod]

However, the way the media are twisting it, you'd get the impression that it's our employment rate going down and the rest of the UKs employment rate going up. They're great when it comes to wording things in ways that give the opposition impression.

Infuriating when people attack this Scottish Government based on headlines, rather than actually looking at the cold hard statistics.

That particular headline says...."Scotland's employment rate hits record high".

[High-On-Hibs]

That particular headline says...."Scotland's employment rate hits record high".

Yet, the STV one is - "Scots unemployment rate rises despite UK-wide fall"

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1395775-scots-unemployment-rate-rises-despite-uk-wide-fall/

[CropleyWasGod]

Yet, the STV one is - "Scots unemployment rate rises despite UK-wide fall"

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1395775-scots-unemployment-rate-rises-despite-uk-wide-fall/

I guess you're going to have to believe the BBC then :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

I guess you're going to have to believe the BBC then :wink:

Nah, id rather ignore both and just look at the raw data, as everybody else should. :aok:

[speedy_gonzales]

However, the way the media are twisting it, you'd get the impression that it's our employment rate going down and the rest of the UKs employment rate going up. They're great when it comes to wording things in ways that give the opposition impression.

Infuriating when people attack this Scottish Government based on headlines, rather than actually looking at the cold hard statistics.
I don't know which article you're reading that suggests facts have been twisted.
Both articles say unemployment in Scotland has risen by 3000 when compared to the the three month period March-May, when compared to January-March unemployment falls by 12000.
At the end of the day, data is data, how you interpret it or what you compare it against is where the story is.
Personally I'd prefer a 12 month comparison as this would iron out any seasonal discrepancies.

[ronaldo7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-40947422

Scotland's employment rate hit a record high in the three months to June, according to official figures.
The number of people in work in Scotland reached 2,650,000, or 75.2%, a rise of 1.1 percentage points over the quarter.
Meanwhile, Scottish unemployment fell by 12,000 to stand at 107,000.


thankfully we have a very competent SNP in charge of running this country :agree: the tories and corbyns scottish branch party would reverse those good trends...FACT

Every little helps. https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/490768/first-minister-opens-new-44-million-facility-at-glaxosmithklines-montrose-site/

Baby boxes and new motorways.

Building Scotland:aok:

[speedy_gonzales]

Every little helps. https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/490768/first-minister-opens-new-44-million-facility-at-glaxosmithklines-montrose-site/


Is there a typo in that article, 15 new jobs following a £44M investment???

[ronaldo7]

Is there a typo in that article, 15 new jobs following a £44M investment???


No. Hence my "Every little helps" comment:wink:

It's the improvements to the facility which is costing the cash, but it will keep the 450+ jobs in the area. :aok:

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/227901/glaxosmithklines-110-million-investment-montrose-will-bring-jobs-boost/

[marinello59]

No. Hence my "Every little helps" comment:wink:

It's the improvements to the facility which is costing the cash, but it will keep the 450+ jobs in the area. :aok:

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/227901/glaxosmithklines-110-million-investment-montrose-will-bring-jobs-boost/

According to the articles you have linked to this company investment is due to their confidence in the UK Governments post Brexit industrial strategy. Well done to Nicola and the SNP. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Is there a typo in that article, 15 new jobs following a £44M investment???

Given the size of the investment, I'm guessing that the facility is highly-automated. Hence labour costs (which are the single-biggest overhead in any project) will have been kept to a minimum. That sounds like sensible planning to me.

The company isn't interested in how many jobs it creates; its main concern is its profitability. The SG, though, will be celebrating 15 more people off the dole and into work, as well as a large-scale facility paying rates.

[ronaldo7]

According to the articles you have linked to this company investment is due to their confidence in the UK Governments post Brexit industrial strategy. Well done to Nicola and the SNP. :greengrin

They've been investing in Montrose and Irvine for a number of years. Prior to Brexit even coming to fruition, all with the help of the Scottish Government.:wink:

Well done to Nicola and the SNP...INDEED. :greengrin

http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/13028327.GSK_reveals_job_plan_to_swap_India_for_Sc otland_Glaxo_chief_explains_move_to_Scotland/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-25048627

[marinello59]

They've been investing in Montrose and Irvine for a number of years. Prior to Brexit even coming to fruition, all with the help of the Scottish Government.:wink:

Well done to Nicola and the SNP...INDEED. :greengrin

http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/13028327.GSK_reveals_job_plan_to_swap_India_for_Sc otland_Glaxo_chief_explains_move_to_Scotland/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-25048627

Your utter unquestioning devotion to your party is a delight to observe. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Your utter unquestioning devotion to your party is a delight to observe. :greengrin

Damn those pesky facts again.:greengrin

[marinello59]

Damn those pesky facts again.:greengrin

Opinions R. Opinions.

[johnbc70]

If anything fits the title of this thread then it is this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41024885

Surely the Scottish Government should have thought through the law and the ins and outs before passing it.

[CropleyWasGod]

If anything fits the title of this thread then it is this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41024885

Surely the Scottish Government should have thought through the law and the ins and outs before passing it.Property taxes are seldom based on profits, so without a wholesale reworking of the system (which all parties talk about doing, and don't deliver) there will always be winners and losers in situations like this.

The report talks about forecast profits this year. What it doesn't say is the extent to which the rates rebate contributed to that. If it has, then the rebate can be claimed to have been successful.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Colr]

Property taxes are seldom based on profits, so without a wholesale reworking of the system (which all parties talk about doing, and don't deliver) there will always be winners and losers in situations like this.

The report talks about forecast profits this year. What it doesn't say is the extent to which the rates rebate contributed to that. If it has, then the rebate can be claimed to have been successful.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Property taxes are based on rental values or a decpitalised version of the replacement cost.

Rental value is a deriviative of the value that a business can draw from its premises so they are linked to profits indirectly. Property value is a derived value from the value of the business undertaken.

[CropleyWasGod]

Property taxes are based on rental values or a decpitalised version of the replacement cost.

Rental value is a deriviative of the value that a business can draw from its premises so they are linked to profits indirectly. Property value is a derived value from the value of the business undertaken.Yet, whether it makes huge losses or huge profits, its rates bill remains the same.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Colr]

Yet, whether it makes huge losses or huge profits, its rates bill remains the same.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Yup. Should be in line with their rent, though, which is also due whether they make a profit of loss.

[ronaldo7]

19275

Building Scotland for all.:wink:

Looking forward to walking over our bridge on Sunday. :saltireflag:saltireflag:saltireflag

[Hibrandenburg]

19275

Building Scotland for all.:wink:

Looking forward to walking over our bridge on Sunday. :saltireflag:saltireflag:saltireflag

I've seen a few posts on social media claiming that the police were trying to stop people flying saltires on the bridge today. Reeks of fake news.

[marinello59]

I've seen a few posts on social media claiming that the police were trying to stop people flying saltires on the bridge today. Reeks of fake news.

It wasn't true.. It really doesn't help us.

[Hibrandenburg]

It wasn't true.. It really doesn't help us.

:agree: These bams believe they're helping the case for independence but in reality they damage it.

[ronaldo7]

I've seen a few posts on social media claiming that the police were trying to stop people flying saltires on the bridge today. Reeks of fake news.

I've posted on the Queensferry crossing thread saying the Ambassadors did a fantastic job, and they did. We did encounter one over eager one asking how my 10yr old nephew got his flag through security, as they'd been told, no flags were allowed. It was keeping him warm was the reply. We walked another 50 yards towards the bus, and another ambassador mentioned how great it was to see the flag, and the Hibs badges.

I wonder if we'll see any flags on any of the bridges today?:wink:

[ronaldo7]

Nice to see Fundee, and the weege get the 1500 jobs today. Well done the Scottish Government.

https://t.co/85Q5uEfl9g

[marinello59]

Nice to see Fundee, and the weege get the 1500 jobs today. Well done the Scottish Government.

https://t.co/85Q5uEfl9g

Well done to Dundee who put up a good case to get the jobs there. And to Glasgow, that sees even more Government jobs located in the central belt.
It's no surprise that when it comes to dishing out these jobs Aberdeen missed out again. Sixty thousand jobs have gone in the offshore industry, it would have been a welcome boost for the area.. The SNP are happy to take jobs away from the City as they centralise our emergency services in the name of cost saving though.(Isn't that called austerity when the Tories do it?)

[ronaldo7]

Well done to Dundee who put up a good case to get the jobs there. And to Glasgow, that sees even more Government jobs located in the central belt.
It's no surprise that when it comes to dishing out these jobs Aberdeen missed out again. Sixty thousand jobs have gone in the offshore industry, it would have been a welcome boost for the area.. The SNP are happy to take jobs away from the City as they centralise our emergency services in the name of cost saving though.(Isn't that called austerity when the Tories do it?)

We were told the UK government were looking after the oil industry with their broad shoulders, and the £200Billion bonanza. I'm sure they'll come up with it sometime, just like the renewables benefits.

I'm sure Aberdeen just got a city deal didn't they, can't have it all you know. Other jobs are being spread around Scotland, courtesy of the SG.

Meantime, we've got to get on and get those people trained and ready to go in the two successful cities.

[Pretty Boy]

Can any of the 1500 people teach maths?:wink:

[ronaldo7]

Can any of the 1500 people teach maths?:wink:

We're importing Maths teachers from England.:wink:

[marinello59]

Can any of the 1500 people teach maths?:wink:

If only they could.
Sturgeon did say she should be judged on education. Apart from some of her more slavishly devoted followers I doubt that anybody will be giving her pass marks. Even John Swinney says they must do better.

[ronaldo7]

If only they could.
Sturgeon did say she should be judged on education. Apart from some of her more slavishly devoted followers I doubt that anybody will be giving her pass marks. Even John Swinney says they must do better.

The FM said exactly the same.

[marinello59]

The FM said exactly the same.

Which is a sorry admission to be making after ten years in power.

[ronaldo7]

Which is a sorry admission to be making after ten years in power.

We can always do better. Just look at Hibs, and they've been going since 1875:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Which is a sorry admission to be making after ten years in power.


Everything is on a (slow-motion) pathway to being awesome.

[heretoday]

New school curriculum required and this time say to the teachers "tell us what you want and we'll provide it".

[Moulin Yarns]

I see things aren't all rosie in education elsewhere in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41388079

[marinello59]

I see things aren't all rosie in education elsewhere in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41388079

I'm not so sure that has anything to do with the SNP.:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not so sure that has anything to do with the SNP.:greengrin

Of course it isn't smarty :greengrin I just thought it worth pointing out that the state of Edumacation is also poor in other parts of the UK

[bawheid]

Of course it isn't smarty :greengrin I just thought it worth pointing out that the state of Edumacation is also poor in other parts of the UK

Especially spelling. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not so sure that has anything to do with the SNP.:greengrin

Nonsense. Clearly Sturgeon's fault. Divisive division of dividers. :grr:

[RyeSloan]

Of course it isn't smarty :greengrin I just thought it worth pointing out that the state of Edumacation is also poor in other parts of the UK

It doesn't tell you anything about the state of education apart from some nominal budgets..

The Nat 5 / Nat 4 thing up here still seems like a total mess and kids are definitely suffering with the pressures of trying to get into Nat 5 classes.

[ronaldo7]

The publicly owned, not for profit, energy company, announced for Scotland at the SNP conference today. Thoughts?

Oh, and Mhari was not too please with Jezza's performance recently.

https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/917790396058652677

[Mibbes Aye]

The publicly owned, not for profit, energy company, announced for Scotland at the SNP conference today. Thoughts?

Oh, and Mhari was not too please with Jezza's performance recently.

https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/917790396058652677

I think it's interesting and it chimes with the public mood. There you go, I've said something reasonably complimentary about the SNP :greengrin.

It's a very complex dynamic though - if we want a sustainable method of supplying energy that is environmentally friendly, then that will cost more, at least to start with. At the moment we seem to subsidise the positive rather than taxing the negative. That needs to change. It's probably fair to say that SG is limited in that it can only intervene at point of use, as this proposal lays out. The costs of nationalising production or indeed the whole market would be prohibitive and likely breach EU law.

The thinking on this seems to mirror Ed Miliband's from five or so years ago - tackling predatory capitalism etc. I think EM had the right ideas, ideas that the majority probably agree with, and maybe more so in Scotland and maybe more so now than then. He was hobbled by presentation and a genuinely hostile media though.

So at the moment it's a guarded welcome from me. Hopefully it is managed in a way that allows it to flourish.

I'm also looking forward to Rye Sloan's view on creating a big quango :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

I think it's interesting and it chimes with the public mood. There you go, I've said something reasonably complimentary about the SNP :greengrin.

It's a very complex dynamic though - if we want a sustainable method of supplying energy that is environmentally friendly, then that will cost more, at least to start with. At the moment we seem to subsidise the positive rather than taxing the negative. That needs to change. It's probably fair to say that SG is limited in that it can only intervene at point of use, as this proposal lays out. The costs of nationalising production or indeed the whole market would be prohibitive and likely breach EU law.

The thinking on this seems to mirror Ed Miliband's from five or so years ago - tackling predatory capitalism etc. I think EM had the right ideas, ideas that the majority probably agree with, and maybe more so in Scotland and maybe more so now than then. He was hobbled by presentation and a genuinely hostile media though.

So at the moment it's a guarded welcome from me. Hopefully it is managed in a way that allows it to flourish.

I'm also looking forward to Rye Sloan's view on creating a big quango :greengrin

Oh I'm here! [emoji23]

I've been too busy working to see the details so I'll hold my judgement until it's more than just a policy announcement...although yeah as you can imagine I wasn't instantly bowled over by the prospect of the SG going into the energy business, esp. at a time where traditional utilities and energy generators are facing such massive challenges to their business models across the globe....

But I will wait for the detail of the proposal and judge it then (honest guv. [emoji57])

[Mibbes Aye]

Oh I'm here! [emoji23]

I've been too busy working to see the details so I'll hold my judgement until it's more than just a policy announcement...although yeah as you can imagine I wasn't instantly bowled over by the prospect of the SG going into the energy business, esp. at a time where traditional utilities and energy generators are facing such massive challenges to their business models across the globe....

But I will wait for the detail of the proposal and judge it then (honest guv. [emoji57])

Looking forward to your views when you see the details. We see things from slightly different perspectives but I have a lot of respect for your arguments :aok:

[RyeSloan]

Looking forward to your views when you see the details. We see things from slightly different perspectives but I have a lot of respect for your arguments :aok:

Likewise [emoji106]

From what I saw from the rest of the announcements I'm also very interested in how the SG is going to pay for it all....there seems to be no end to the largesse so the tax proposals will be the key.

[Mibbes Aye]

Likewise [emoji106]

From what I saw from the rest of the announcements I'm also very interested in how the SG is going to pay for it all....there seems to be no end to the largesse so the tax proposals will be the key.

This, or does the proposed public sector pay rise mean they reduce the staffing establishment to allow the salary hike.

A bit more transparency about costings would be welcome.

[RyeSloan]

This, or does the proposed public sector pay rise mean they reduce the staffing establishment to allow the salary hike.

A bit more transparency about costings would be welcome.

Can't imagine the SG wanting to be seen to cut numbers. It been one of the favourite games in Scotland to judge our public services by total spent (more is good) and total people (more is good and above target even better) so we shall see...

[Mibbes Aye]

Can't imagine the SG wanting to be seen to cut numbers. It been one of the favourite games in Scotland to judge our public services by total spent (more is good) and total people (more is good and above target even better) so we shall see...

:agree: Completely agree

The increased numbers in NHS staffing don't equate to better performance on waiting times or delayed discharge.

There's a problem for SG in squaring the circle. By my count there's at least a £1bn increase committed there (happy to be corrected).

That's only going to be met by taxation, reducing the public sector wage budget or reducing the settlement to local authorities.

My bet would be that local authorities are expected to swallow it. The SNP has form for it and with the shift in the make-up after the last local elections, they have more incentive.

The most vulnerable people in our society are the ones who tend to depend most on local authority services. I would be fearing for them tonight.

[JeMeSouviens]

:agree: Completely agree

The increased numbers in NHS staffing don't equate to better performance on waiting times or delayed discharge.

There's a problem for SG in squaring the circle. By my count there's at least a £1bn increase committed there (happy to be corrected).

That's only going to be met by taxation, reducing the public sector wage budget or reducing the settlement to local authorities.

My bet would be that local authorities are expected to swallow it. The SNP has form for it and with the shift in the make-up after the last local elections, they have more incentive.

The most vulnerable people in our society are the ones who tend to depend most on local authority services. I would be fearing for them tonight.

Phew - normal service resumed. :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

Phew - normal service resumed. :wink:

:greengrin

In fairness, I'm not disagreeing with the policies they are putting forward. I just suspect they will take the easy way out when it comes to funding them.

I think there's a general lack of understanding in this country about how social care works and is funded. If there was better understanding then I wouldn't need to post this, because there would be no chance that progressive policies were funded by anything other than taxation, and certainly not by cuts to LAs who have the statutory duty of picking up the pieces for the weakest and most marginalised in our country.

[JeMeSouviens]

:greengrin

In fairness, I'm not disagreeing with the policies they are putting forward. I just suspect they will take the easy way out when it comes to funding them.

I think there's a general lack of understanding in this country about how social care works and is funded. If there was better understanding then I wouldn't need to post this, because there would be no chance that progressive policies were funded by anything other than taxation, and certainly not by cuts to LAs who have the statutory duty of picking up the pieces for the weakest and most marginalised in our country.

They (SG) certainly seem to be strongly hinting of tax rises. I suspect with an eye on polls and focus groups for now though. Hope they follow through and parties other than Tories obv, lend strong support.

[Mibbes Aye]

They (SG) certainly seem to be strongly hinting of tax rises. I suspect with an eye on polls and focus groups for now though. Hope they follow through and parties other than Tories obv, lend strong support.

It takes a leap of faith to say that you will increase taxation to fund progressive policies. I am in the higher bracket, so I reckon I would be asked to pay more. I don't disagree with that.

If they are willing to do that I would look on them more favourably.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

:greengrin

In fairness, I'm not disagreeing with the policies they are putting forward. I just suspect they will take the easy way out when it comes to funding them.

I think there's a general lack of understanding in this country about how social care works and is funded. If there was better understanding then I wouldn't need to post this, because there would be no chance that progressive policies were funded by anything other than taxation, and certainly not by cuts to LAs who have the statutory duty of picking up the pieces for the weakest and most marginalised in our country.

I think taxes will rise- i dont see how they cant.

I think the childcare is potentially a good policy though - a good intervention at an early stage to limit the impact of feckwot parents on their children (trting to break the poverty cycle) and also good politics as the middle classes who will pay for it will also benefit.

Im not sure what 'progressive' policies are though? I know what progressive taxation is, but just using a positive pŕfix on policies you like seems a bit odd?

[ronaldo7]

I think taxes will rise- i dont see how they cant.

I think the childcare is potentially a good policy though - a good intervention at an early stage to limit the impact of feckwot parents on their children (trting to break the poverty cycle) and also good politics as the middle classes who will pay for it will also benefit.

Im not sure what 'progressive' policies are though? I know what progressive taxation is, but just using a positive pŕfix on policies you like seems a bit odd?

I'd agree, I think taxes will rise and bands will change. We'll then see how many on here are supportive of the changes.

[JeMeSouviens]

It takes a leap of faith to say that you will increase taxation to fund progressive policies. I am in the higher bracket, so I reckon I would be asked to pay more. I don't disagree with that.

If they are willing to do that I would look on them more favourably.

Me too.

The SNP has to be even more brave though, given the overwhelming antipathy of almost every media source. People will accept more taxation but will (rightly) expect better public services. No matter the actual situation on the ground, people will then be told loud and long that everything is going to hell in a handcart and they are being robbed. That's not to say that the SG shouldn't do what's right but it's pretty clear in advance what the opposition line will be.

[RamYer1902]

Vote yes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

good news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41832155


A political blogger who was arrested over allegations of online harassment has been told by police that he will face no further action.
Stuart Campbell, who is behind the Wings over Scotland website, was arrested at his home in Bath in August.



:)

[cabbageandribs1875]

Vote yes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




absolutely

[Future17]

good news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41832155


A political blogger who was arrested over allegations of online harassment has been told by police that he will face no further action.
Stuart Campbell, who is behind the Wings over Scotland website, was arrested at his home in Bath in August.



:)








The Rev was a slight pain in the backside for me in a previous job, but it sounds like he's due an apology here.

[The Pointer]

While his name is plastered all over the place there's not a word on his accuser. Should be a bit of finger pointing in her direction.

[snooky]

While his name is plastered all over the place there's not a word on his accuser. Should be a bit of finger pointing in her direction.

The media have a carte blanche to publish lies without any retribution.
Small print apologies at the foot of inner pages seem to be enough to get them off the hook from wild headline sensationalisms..
It's scandalous.

[Future17]

While his name is plastered all over the place there's not a word on his accuser. Should be a bit of finger pointing in her direction.

You sound like the person to do it!

[snooky]

You sound like the person to do it!

Right on the nail. :wink:

[johnbc70]

Scottish Childcare Minister and SNP MSP resigns over "inappropriate behaviour"

Mark McDonald is quoted as saying he believed his behaviour to be "humorous or friendly" but then resigns on the back of it.

[ronaldo7]

Nice to see a deal to save Bi fab going into administration. Snp doing the day job, whilst others bake cakes and eat *****.:aok:

https://t.co/jxU3cyoZMJ

[RyeSloan]

Nice to see a deal to save Bi fab going into administration. Snp doing the day job, whilst others bake cakes and eat *****.:aok:

https://t.co/jxU3cyoZMJ

Credit where it's due.

Good to see the government facilitating talks and securing a commercial solution without tax payers money being involved [emoji106]

[marinello59]

Nice to see a deal to save Bi fab going into administration. Snp doing the day job, whilst others bake cakes and eat *****.:aok:

https://t.co/jxU3cyoZMJ

Well done to Nicola Sturgeon for banging heads together and getting a deal done. A real victory for the workers as well who wasted no time taking action to protect their jobs.

[lucky]

Delighted that a sustained campaign from the trade unions saved the jobs, it’s also good that the Scottish government supported them.

[Moulin Yarns]

An agreement has been reached to prevent engineering business BiFab going into administration, the Scottish government has said.

Talks have been held in Edinburgh between ministers and Dutch-based Seaway Heavy Lifting following a dispute with BiFab.

An agreement will see BiFab receiving payments to alleviate the firm's "immediate cash flow issues



Union leaders from Unite and GMB have praised the Scottish government for its role in brokering the deal.


We appreciate the role that the Scottish government has played in reaching a positive solution for all. "Seaway Heavy Lifting will continue to always treat its suppliers fairly, with respect and integrity and we look forward to BiFab successfully completing the remainder of the Beatrice jacket fabrication

Utter nonsense that the SNP stuck their nose in to save jobs. :wink:

Well done to all involved except Richard Leonard for claiming it was only the unions involvement that saved the day. If that is the way he means to go on he may as well join Kezia in the Jungle.

[ronaldo7]

Utter nonsense that the SNP stuck their nose in to save jobs. :wink:

Well done to all involved except Richard Leonard for claiming it was only the unions involvement that saved the day. If that is the way he means to go on he may as well join Kezia in the Jungle.

He's maybe getting his fix from Alan Roden. :greengrin

They all do these days.:aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

Utter nonsense that the SNP stuck their nose in to save jobs. :wink:

Well done to all involved except Richard Leonard for claiming it was only the unions involvement that saved the day. If that is the way he means to go on he may as well join Kezia in the Jungle.

Maybe just me, but Richard Leonard looks a bit like Hugh Abbot and looks a bit like Phil Hammond.

Is there some sort of identi-kit box for making your own politician?

[lucky]

He's maybe getting his fix from Alan Roden. :greengrin

They all do these days.:aok:

I doubt Rodden will remain in post too long under Leonard

[lucky]

Utter nonsense that the SNP stuck their nose in to save jobs. :wink:

Well done to all involved except Richard Leonard for claiming it was only the unions involvement that saved the day. If that is the way he means to go on he may as well join Kezia in the Jungle.

If they unions had not taken action the Scottish government would not have got involved. It’s was the workers who kept the sites open not ministers

[JeMeSouviens]

Maybe just me, but Richard Leonard looks a bit like Hugh Abbot and looks a bit like Phil Hammond.

Is there some sort of identi-kit box for making your own politician?

There's a factory in Oxbridge, wherever that is?

[JeMeSouviens]

In a joint statement, Unite's Pat Rafferty and GMB's Gary Smith said: "Make no mistake these yards would be closed today if it wasn't for the dignity and determination of the workers and their families in Fife and Lewis to save their jobs and industry.
"With their futures on a knife edge they worked for nothing, stayed strong and resolute and by staying united they have won their future.
"Further, the Scottish government said they would leave no stone unturned and their efforts have been pivotal in bringing BiFab back from the brink."

It doesn't seem like the Unions have a problem with the SG's efforts?

[Mibbes Aye]

There's a factory in Oxbridge, wherever that is?

:greengrin

[lucky]

It doesn't seem like the Unions have a problem with the SG's efforts?

Or the SG complaining about the great campaign by the workers and the unions.

[JeMeSouviens]

Or the SG complaining about the great campaign by the workers and the unions.

So the Unions are happy with SG and vice versa.

What's Labour's problem? :confused:

[RyeSloan]

So the Unions are happy with SG and vice versa.

What's Labour's problem? :confused:

Is it not possible that for once all parties involved actually contributed to a constructive conversation that resulted in a sensible agreement?

Does their really need to be a squabble over who gets the credit? And if so it seems to me most of that credit seems to go to the companies that have agreed to alter the commercial terms of the contacts in order to provide cash flow to the distressed party!

[Mibbes Aye]

Is it not possible that for once all parties involved actually contributed to a constructive conversation that resulted in a sensible agreement?

Does their really need to be a squabble over who gets the credit? And if so it seems to me most of that credit seems to go to the companies that have agreed to alter the commercial terms of the contacts in order to provide cash flow to the distressed party!

Good post.

And there also seems to be a lack of looking ahead, in amongst the backslapping.

I'm not a free marketeer by any stretch, but is this company actually viable?

[lucky]

So the Unions are happy with SG and vice versa.

What's Labour's problem? :confused:

There’s not one but the Nat staffer on here was claiming it was the Scottish Government who saved the yards. They contributed along with the companies and trade unions

[Just Alf]

There’s not one but the Nat staffer on here was claiming it was the Scottish Government who saved the yards. They contributed along with the companies and trade unions


To be fair, that's not really what he said.... he was essentially highlighting the fact that some people actually ARE getting on with the #dayjob. The SG merely, by their own admission, created the breathing space for the unions, workers and companies involved to come to an agreement.

[ronaldo7]

There’s not one but the Nat staffer on here was claiming it was the Scottish Government who saved the yards. They contributed along with the companies and trade unions

I think he was "claiming" the SG were doing the day job. The task now, is for the company to look to the future, and get some more work in from April next year. Everyone, and I mean, everyone involved in saving these jobs deserves credit.

[ronaldo7]

Nice to see the Dumfries and Galloway getting a brand new state of the art hospital. #dayjob

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-42243740

[speedy_gonzales]

Nice to see the Dumfries and Galloway getting a brand new state of the art hospital. #dayjob

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-42243740
Is it correct that this is another PFI hospital?

Financed by a consortium, maintained by Serco?

Edit: does everyone else's phone autocorrect Serco to Sevco??? I've obviously used that name once it thrice!

[Pete]

Is it correct that this is another PFI hospital?

Financed by a consortium, maintained by Serco?


That’ll be a yes then. Well, it’s called NPD or something now but ironically it still involves private investors making a huge profit over a contacted period of time.

You’d think that there were other, cheaper ways to finance infrastructure.

[ronaldo7]

Is it correct that this is another PFI hospital?

Financed by a consortium, maintained by Serco?

Edit: does everyone else's phone autocorrect Serco to Sevco??? I've obviously used that name once it thrice!


That’ll be a yes then. Well, it’s called NPD or something now but ironically it still involves private investors making a huge profit over a contacted period of time.

You’d think that there were other, cheaper ways to finance infrastructure.

We don't do PFI, under our stewardship, although we're still paying for Labours past indiscretions. NPD is a different model, but I'm sure you knew this.:wink:

http://www.partnershipsbulletin.com/news/view/87109

[speedy_gonzales]

We don't do PFI, under our stewardship, although we're still paying for Labours past indiscretions. NPD is a different model, but I'm sure you knew this.:wink:

http://www.partnershipsbulletin.com/news/view/87109

I actually did not know this, so does Non Profit Distributing mean Laing O'Rourke & Serco won't make any money over and above their costs? Surely not?
Without knowing overall costs it's a bit difficult to tell whether the public are getting value for money, and apart from the initial difference in how the build is financed one of the biggest complaints with PFI build is the questionable maintenance contracts where the service provider is tied in to a lengthy watertight agreement (RIE), will the 20 year Serco tie up be any different?

[ronaldo7]

I actually did not know this, so does Non Profit Distributing mean Laing O'Rourke & Serco won't make any money over and above their costs? Surely not?
Without knowing overall costs it's a bit difficult to tell whether the public are getting value for money, and apart from the initial difference in how the build is financed one of the biggest complaints with PFI build is the questionable maintenance contracts where the service provider is tied in to a lengthy watertight agreement (RIE), will the 20 year Serco tie up be any different?

You don't need me to tell you. :greengrin

It's all here. http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Government/Finance/18232/12308

It's a long read though. :wink:

[speedy_gonzales]

You don't need me to tell you. :greengrin

It's all here. http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Government/Finance/18232/12308

It's a long read though. :wink:


A simple yes/maybe/don't know would have done,,,, my uninitiated thinking is NPD is another name for PFI, regardless how the money is procured, a private enterprise is making a chunk of change out of government money for public projects. The maintenance contract is the big money earner (as interest in borrowed capital is practically unavoidable), why the mtce couldn't be done in house I don't know???

Re the link, I'll read that when I get back from the game,,,, maybe.

[RyeSloan]

We don't do PFI, under our stewardship, although we're still paying for Labours past indiscretions. NPD is a different model, but I'm sure you knew this.:wink:

http://www.partnershipsbulletin.com/news/view/87109

NPD is a variation of PFI.

It's definitely an improvement but it's based on PFI and on most levels can be considered very very similar.

In the SG own words:

It is important to note that the NPD model is not a “not for profit” model – contractors and lenders are expected to earn a normal market rate of return as in any other form of PFI/PPP. Rather, the model aims to eliminate uncapped equity returns associated with traditional PFI models and limit these returns to a reasonable rate set in competition.

[ronaldo7]

A simple yes/maybe/don't know would have done,,,, my uninitiated thinking is NPD is another name for PFI, regardless how the money is procured, a private enterprise is making a chunk of change out of government money for public projects. The maintenance contract is the big money earner (as interest in borrowed capital is practically unavoidable), why the mtce couldn't be done in house I don't know???

Re the link, I'll read that when I get back from the game,,,, maybe.

I don't think the government have all the skills to build hospitals, they're best to leave it to the professionals, for a small profit.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

NPD is a variation of PFI.

It's definitely an improvement but it's based on PFI and on most levels can be considered very very similar.

In the SG own words:

It is important to note that the NPD model is not a “not for profit” model – contractors and lenders are expected to earn a normal market rate of return as in any other form of PFI/PPP. Rather, the model aims to eliminate uncapped equity returns associated with traditional PFI models and limit these returns to a reasonable rate set in competition.

Completely different to allowing unfettered access to unlimited profit then. :aok:

[RyeSloan]

Completely different to allowing unfettered access to unlimited profit then. :aok:

I'm not sure what you mean, what finance structure gives that?

[ronaldo7]

I'm not sure what you mean, what finance structure gives that?

PFI used to.

[speedy_gonzales]

I don't think the government have all the skills to build hospitals, they're best to leave it to the professionals, for a small profit.:aok:
So, same as how it's always been?
We need to try and move away or find an genuine alternative to the long term maintenance contracts with punitive buy out clauses though, eh?

[Pete]

So, same as how it's always been?
We need to try and move away or find an genuine alternative to the long term maintenance contracts with punitive buy out clauses though, eh?

Of course it’s different.

Under PPP, private investors make hu*****us profits over 25-30 years courtesy of the taxpayer.
With this new system, private investors will only make huge profits over 25-30 years courtesy of the taxpayer.

Edit: that is one wacky swear filter!

[Bristolhibby]

Here is a thing people are missing.

Pay more taxes, get better / more public services.

But then nobody wants to pay more taxes.

Until we get over that hurdle we will always have to “borrow” from private investment.

J

[ronaldo7]

So, same as how it's always been?
We need to try and move away or find an genuine alternative to the long term maintenance contracts with punitive buy out clauses though, eh?

Maybe we could plant some magic money trees that Theresa shakes every now and then. Until then, we've got the block grant to be thankful for. :wink:

[Slavers]

Here is a thing people are missing.

Pay more taxes, get better / more public services.

But then nobody wants to pay more taxes.

Until we get over that hurdle we will always have to “borrow” from private investment.

J

I see how inefficient government can be meaning that paying more taxes does not automatically mean better public services.

Paying more taxes will certainly mean more government, more expense and more money wasted.

[speedy_gonzales]

Maybe we could plant some magic money trees that Theresa shakes every now and then. Until then, we've got the block grant to be thankful for. :wink:
Constructive post, super!
Seriously though, why do consecutive governments choose expensive long term maintenance contracts with expensive tie-ins!
I know of some horrific stories re works carried out at the RIE because of the Consort deal, expensive remedial work and basic maintenance that would make your eyes water.
Joke as much as you like but that's money we're haemorrhaging from an already stretched budget and ultimately needy patients missing out.
I thought a progressive government could find a better way to run and maintain vital services but perhaps my expectations were to high.

[ronaldo7]

Constructive post, super!
Seriously though, why do consecutive governments choose expensive long term maintenance contracts with expensive tie-ins!
I know of some horrific stories re works carried out at the RIE because of the Consort deal, expensive remedial work and basic maintenance that would make your eyes water.
Joke as much as you like but that's money we're haemorrhaging from an already stretched budget and ultimately needy patients missing out.
I thought a progressive government could find a better way to run and maintain vital services but perhaps my expectations were to high.

Where do you suggest we get the money from?

[speedy_gonzales]

Where do you suggest we get the money from?
For maintenance, you budget/pay as you go and manage locally either by premise or by Trust, the money comes out the same pot it does now except there would be less of a budget required because we wouldn't be gifting a considerable %age away to finance consortiums.
NHS Lothian already has an estates team that carries out maintenance everywhere except our PPP/PFI maintained buildings, they are cheaper and carry out the necessary works without the need to inflate costs to justify extortionate contracts.
It's too easy to opt for the "all-inclusive" mtce option but it comes at a cost!

[ronaldo7]

For maintenance, you budget/pay as you go and manage locally either by premise or by Trust, the money comes out the same pot it does now except there would be less of a budget required because we wouldn't be gifting a considerable %age away to finance consortiums.
NHS Lothian already has an estates team that carries out maintenance everywhere except our PPP/PFI maintained buildings, they are cheaper and carry out the necessary works without the need to inflate costs to justify extortionate contracts.
It's too easy to opt for the "all-inclusive" mtce option but it comes at a cost!

What about up front costs for new build?

[speedy_gonzales]

What about up front costs for new build?
What about them? You borrow, or you save, or you PFI it or in this case you don't PFI but NPD it (and with your deafening silence on that I'll assume they are one and the same)!
My question,that I raised in a post yesterday morning and have asked since, is WHY are we signing off punitively expensive maintenance contracts for the running of these privately built establishments when we could & SHOULD be doing it in-house.
Would you pay a landlord 5 or more times the going rate for a job that you could do yourself or an independent contractor could do FOR LESS?
A lot is made that the Trusts are MASSIVE and managing individual works is too onerous,,,,I'm sorry, it isn't!

[ronaldo7]

What about them? You borrow, or you save, or you PFI it or in this case you don't PFI but NPD it (and with your deafening silence on that I'll assume they are one and the same)!
My question,that I raised in a post yesterday morning and have asked since, is WHY are we signing off punitively expensive maintenance contracts for the running of these privately built establishments when we could & SHOULD be doing it in-house.
Would you pay a landlord 5 or more times the going rate for a job that you could do yourself or an independent contractor could do FOR LESS?
A lot is made that the Trusts are MASSIVE and managing individual works is too onerous,,,,I'm sorry, it isn't!

I'm not sure the Scottish government has much borrowing capacity under the current rules. If only we had an other option.

You can only push with the clock you've got. Trying to avoid the swear filter there.

[Jack]

While billions upon billions can be found to keep the DUP sweet, or more billions for pointless aircraft carriers, or even more billions for the maintenance of palaces, or even even the potential £100 billion to exit the EU, or even even even more billions for pointless weapons that will hopefully will never be used or all the other multibillions will have been spent pointlessly can be quite easily found I'm afraid the health of the likes of us comes in such a poor last place it doesn't bare thinking about.

You and your health are just not worth it ... unless someone can make a profit from it.

And politics and politicians are there to make sure it happens.






Unless more of us become involved in politics!

[speedy_gonzales]

I'm not sure the Scottish government has much borrowing capacity under the current rules. If only we had an other option.

You can only push with the clock you've got. Trying to avoid the swear filter there.
,,,,and the golden handcuff mtce contracts that we're handing out and DO have a say in? What say you?

[ronaldo7]

,,,,and the golden handcuff mtce contracts that we're handing out and DO have a say in? What say you?

Show me the figures, and I'd be happy to take a look. 😊

[Mibbes Aye]

What about up front costs for new build?

I was going to make the same point :greengrin

I don't think it's a party issue as I think every governing party faces the same choice and tends to make the same choice - finding huge amounts of capital at the outset and then factoring in the running and maintenance costs from subsequent revenue budgets OR going down the P-whatever route so you're kicking the total costs into the long grass for years to come. I've a sneaking suspicion most of us would do similarly if we got to that position - it's pragmatism rather than the idealism (and electoral risk) of big tax rises or increased borrowing to fund an increased public sector budget that most of the press already describe as bloated.

There's added pragmatic reasons - when Brown committed to matching the Tory spending pledges in the first term, one of the headline factors in making Labour electable again, he was able to build the new hospitals and schools that were desperately needed because the costs didn't show as expensive capital spends in the first term. It was political expediency. Yes, the money started to flow to replace the crumbling schools and hospitals more quickly than would have happened otherwise, but it was due to a calculation that the other route of big tax rises or massive borrowing would incur the well-established Tory trope about economic policy.

[Mibbes Aye]

While billions upon billions can be found to keep the DUP sweet, or more billions for pointless aircraft carriers, or even more billions for the maintenance of palaces, or even even the potential £100 billion to exit the EU, or even even even more billions for pointless weapons that will hopefully will never be used or all the other multibillions will have been spent pointlessly can be quite easily found I'm afraid the health of the likes of us come in such a poor last place it doesn't bare thinking about.

You and your health are just not worth it ... unless someone can make a profit from it.

And politics and politicians are there to make sure it happens.

Unless more of us become involved in politics!

I agree with your point about priorities but there also needs to be a serious and frank conversation about healthcare, expectations and expenditure.

It's widely recognised that the demands on acute health care are unsustainable and will become more so as we have a rapidly-increasing older population living with multiple forms of ill health. That's been accepted by all parties for a long time now but the disinvestment to allow more money into community health care and social care doesn't occur at the levels to allow it to succeed.

One of the biggest problems is the culture of measuring performance by the wrong indicators - indicators that focus on the front door, not what's happened before. Again, I think that all are guilty of that.

I know from your posts that you had a career within health, so you've probably heard this phrase - too many times we are hitting a target but missing the point. And for a long time we've not even been hitting the targets.

[Jack]

I agree with your point about priorities but there also needs to be a serious and frank conversation about healthcare, expectations and expenditure.

It's widely recognised that the demands on acute health care are unsustainable and will become more so as we have a rapidly-increasing older population living with multiple forms of ill health. That's been accepted by all parties for a long time now but the disinvestment to allow more money into community health care and social care doesn't occur at the levels to allow it to succeed.

One of the biggest problems is the culture of measuring performance by the wrong indicators - indicators that focus on the front door, not what's happened before. Again, I think that all are guilty of that.

I know from your posts that you had a career within health, so you've probably heard this phrase - too many times we are hitting a target but missing the point. And for a long time we've not even been hitting the targets.

Gosh, that was some time ago. Honestly it was all going so well to! ;-)

Indeed even when I started in health, some 15+ or so years ago, all the chat was all about integrating health and social care.

To be honest I think the discussions have been going on since before the inception of the NHS!!!

For those unsure of the terms the NHS looks after you when you have a medical condition, social care is when there's no direct medical condition needs attention but you still need looked after. The middle ground is the bloodiest minefield in peacetime!

Its huge. I'm certain a solution could be found [that's not all about chucking multi billions at it] but the frank discussion needs be extend beyond health [and social care] itself.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

While billions upon billions can be found to keep the DUP sweet, or more billions for pointless aircraft carriers, or even more billions for the maintenance of palaces, or even even the potential £100 billion to exit the EU, or even even even more billions for pointless weapons that will hopefully will never be used or all the other multibillions will have been spent pointlessly can be quite easily found I'm afraid the health of the likes of us comes in such a poor last place it doesn't bare thinking about.

You and your health are just not worth it ... unless someone can make a profit from it.

And politics and politicians are there to make sure it happens.






Unless more of us become involved in politics!


This kind of simplistic 'lets spend less money on A and more on B' doesnt really help. If you increase the health budget, that money has to come from somewhete else.

Stop trident or building aircarft carriers? Ok, but i dont think the MoD are going to tlbe too keen on their budget being raided even more - and even if we did, i presume you wouldnt then join the chorus of people condemning the government for sending troops away in sub-standard equipment, and coming back with their legs blown off.

Yeah the DUP deal was rubbish, but i thought it was an extra billion (singular) (that they dont get until they have restored devolved govt) and its not the DUP that get that money as you well know, its Northern Ireland, which is one of tge UKs most deprived regions.

A billion quid for Scotland would be less than 10% of the NHSScotland budget for a single year.

Integrated health and social care is a good principle, but it will take years for it to start to reap dividends. And it wont stop the enormous demand being put on NHSS from continuing to rise and grow more complex.

Not building an aircraft carrier would be a piss in the ocean to what is a deeply structural, recurring and long term problem.

And we better hope we dont get in anymore wars in the meantime eh?!

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd condemn the government for sending troops away to illegal wars regardless of the equipment they're issued with. I just wish the UK would finally recognise that our days of ruling the waves and influencing world policy to a greater extent are gone. Let's build a defence force to defend ourselves and wake up and smell the coffee.

[Mibbes Aye]

This kind of simplistic 'lets spend less money on A and more on B' doesnt really help. If you increase the health budget, that money has to come from somewhete else.

Stop trident or building aircarft carriers? Ok, but i dont think the MoD are going to tlbe too keen on their budget being raided even more - and even if we did, i presume you wouldnt then join the chorus of people condemning the government for sending troops away in sub-standard equipment, and coming back with their legs blown off.

Yeah the DUP deal was rubbish, but i thought it was an extra billion (singular) (that they dont get until they have restored devolved govt) and its not the DUP that get that money as you well know, its Northern Ireland, which is one of tge UKs most deprived regions.

A billion quid for Scotland would be less than 10% of the NHSScotland budget for a single year.

Integrated health and social care is a good principle, but it will take years for it to start to reap dividends. And it wont stop the enormous demand being put on NHSS from continuing to rise and grow more complex.

Not building an aircraft carrier would be a piss in the ocean to what is a deeply structural, recurring and long term problem.

And we better hope we dont get in anymore wars in the meantime eh?!

The principle is probably good but integration means different things to different people which is why when the 32 local authorities and 14 Health Boards met their legal requirements for integration, we ended up with 31 integration authorities, each one ever so slightly different from another in their arrangements.

As Jack alluded to, it's been a minefield for a long time. A huge amount of energy was invested in an early model, called Joint Futures, in the early 2000s. It ran aground IMO because there were so many areas of disagreement or contestation around things like terms and conditions.

I'm sure in the run-up to the 2007 Holyrood elections both Labour and the SNP committed to creating a National Care Service, as some sort of panacea. The 'trade union' for social work directors commissioned a study by a respected academic and that put paid to the idea - the findings were essentially that 'integration' often ended up being a focus on structures and establishments, rather than focused on very local, joint working, delivering the best outcomes for people, which meant ending up in a cul-de-sac where the whole point was missed.

Amongst her findings interestingly, was a focus on Northern Ireland which has had an 'integrated' service for decades. It appeared that it was still nearly impossible to shift resources from acute care to social care and again, health targets were routinely missed.

With regard to the topic of defence, as long as I can remember, various governments have conducted Strategic Defence Reviews, usually every several years but they invariably change tack within a couple of years, as defence and security needs render the original suppositions as less than sound. Future planning seems even weaker than for health and social care.

[-Jonesy-]

And we better hope we dont get in anymore wars in the meantime eh?!

You say that almost as if we couldn't have avoided illegal and needless conflict around the world

[Jack]

This kind of simplistic 'lets spend less money on A and more on B' doesnt really help. If you increase the health budget, that money has to come from somewhete else.

Stop trident or building aircarft carriers? Ok, but i dont think the MoD are going to tlbe too keen on their budget being raided even more - and even if we did, i presume you wouldnt then join the chorus of people condemning the government for sending troops away in sub-standard equipment, and coming back with their legs blown off.

Yeah the DUP deal was rubbish, but i thought it was an extra billion (singular) (that they dont get until they have restored devolved govt) and its not the DUP that get that money as you well know, its Northern Ireland, which is one of tge UKs most deprived regions.

A billion quid for Scotland would be less than 10% of the NHSScotland budget for a single year.

Integrated health and social care is a good principle, but it will take years for it to start to reap dividends. And it wont stop the enormous demand being put on NHSS from continuing to rise and grow more complex.

Not building an aircraft carrier would be a piss in the ocean to what is a deeply structural, recurring and long term problem.

And we better hope we dont get in anymore wars in the meantime eh?!

I keep on hearing about it being too simplistic but not about why it can't happen. Do tell. Be as complicated as you like, we're not all Labour voters!

I hear about our forces being sent abroad in substandard kit, whether or not we spend billions on "defence".

The aircraft carriers aren't just £3+ billion each, they're billions more to kit out, with American aircraft we don't have full control over (we don't have full access to the software coding and that's not the half of it) or the on going costs over 50 years - unless Putin regimes comment "just a big convenient marine target” comes to bare.

As has been said before, it's about priorities.

Do we prioritise maintaining a position at the top table, while at the beck and call of the USA, or the wellbeing of our citizens?

Integrated health and social care is good. <<That's a full stop.

The sooner it starts the sooner the benefits will start.

Dividends are for shareholders.

Any thoughts on the next time we'll have a conventional war where we'll need conventional armed forces?

[Pete]

So the truth to all of this is that value for money takes second fiddle to the interests of groups of individuals who want to stay electable? They can stand up and talk bollox about the "investment they've attracted" rather than the debt they've racked up to simply save face and protect their position, even though the taxpayer will be worse off in the long run.

Depressing stuff but I don't believe it's beyond the wit of man to do things differently.

[Mibbes Aye]

So the truth to all of this is that value for money takes second fiddle to the interests of groups of individuals who want to stay electable? They can stand up and talk bollox about the "investment they've attracted" rather than the debt they've racked up to simply save face and protect their position, even though the taxpayer will be worse off in the long run.

Depressing stuff but I don't believe it's beyond the wit of man to do things differently.

Partly that but I think there’s more nuance.

Going back to the 1997 example, I think Brown genuinely wanted to build schools and hospitals - I remember how run-down those sorts of buildings had got after eighteen years of Tory under-investment and he is committed to educational opportunity as a driver for social justice.

In order to do that though, he had to weigh up pragmatic and strategic considerations. First of all was winning a first term, which meant outflanking the Tories on policy by agreeing to stick to their spending plans. Immediately that took away probably the biggest weapon the Tories had used in 1987 and 1992. There also had to be a bigger plan for being able to win a second term, to consolidate what happened in the first term and ensure public service infrastructure was being renewed in a way that the Tories couldn’t halt as easily, should they have won in 2001 or indeed 2005. Thus the attraction of “off-the-books” investment.

It’s maybe not pretty but it is politics. This was also post-Cold War and pre-credit crunch. I think there was a lot more optimism around a falsely confident ongoing economic growth that would make much of this debate pointless. A lot of people did believe we were beyond the 20th century paradigm and in a new age of economic and fiscal ‘rules’.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You say that almost as if we couldn't have avoided illegal and needless conflict around the world

There is no such thing as an illegal war. International law is normative, it isnt actual law.

I agree we could and should sat out iraq, but i would argue Afghanistan, Bosnia, Sierra Leone, Falklands, and IS are all legitimate wars that had to be fought. And of course withdrawing into naive pacifism led to WW2.

Its easy to say that we should have some benign, 'ethical' foreign policy, but in the real world where rivals are not benign or ethical, and where countries do and will threaten our interests, its simply not viable.

And for the record, the MoD budget is being slashed, along with most other departments. While health is protected and still rises (albeit not by enough).

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I keep on hearing about it being too simplistic but not about why it can't happen. Do tell. Be as complicated as you like, we're not all Labour voters!

I hear about our forces being sent abroad in substandard kit, whether or not we spend billions on "defence".

The aircraft carriers aren't just £3+ billion each, they're billions more to kit out, with American aircraft we don't have full control over (we don't have full access to the software coding and that's not the half of it) or the on going costs over 50 years - unless Putin regimes comment "just a big convenient marine target” comes to bare.

As has been said before, it's about priorities.

Do we prioritise maintaining a position at the top table, while at the beck and call of the USA, or the wellbeing of our citizens?

Integrated health and social care is good. <<That's a full stop.

The sooner it starts the sooner the benefits will start.

Dividends are for shareholders.

Any thoughts on the next time we'll have a conventional war where we'll need conventional armed forces?

So should we just scrap our armed forces and plough it all into health? Assuming that is not your view, then you accept that a line has to be drawn somewhere?

Of course it is legitimate to debate where that line should be, and that it should be shifted here or there, but i dount many would agree that we should scrap our aircraft carriers, our nuclear capability, and a huge chunk of our air force?

As a society we cant afford everyrhing we want and need, so we either need to radically rethink how we spend our national resources, or massively increase taxes (or both!).

Your last comment is really dangerous. I dont know where the next conventional conflict will be, but i am positive there will be one. The history of humanity shows us that. And in a world with more people competing for fewer resources, with am emergent superpower in the far east and an aggressive Russia on europe's eastern border, nuclear proliferation and a perennially unstable middle east, it woyld be incredibly dangerous to assume we no longer need a military. Not to mention the 2% of GDP we are required to spend om defence for Nato membership.

And even if we did scrap trident, our aircraft carriers that wouls still only pay for NHSScotland (at current levels) for about 8 or 9 years. What would you cut after that?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Partly that but I think there’s more nuance.

Going back to the 1997 example, I think Brown genuinely wanted to build schools and hospitals - I remember how run-down those sorts of buildings had got after eighteen years of Tory under-investment and he is committed to educational opportunity as a driver for social justice.

In order to do that though, he had to weigh up pragmatic and strategic considerations. First of all was winning a first term, which meant outflanking the Tories on policy by agreeing to stick to their spending plans. Immediately that took away probably the biggest weapon the Tories had used in 1987 and 1992. There also had to be a bigger plan for being able to win a second term, to consolidate what happened in the first term and ensure public service infrastructure was being renewed in a way that the Tories couldn’t halt as easily, should they have won in 2001 or indeed 2005. Thus the attraction of “off-the-books” investment.

It’s maybe not pretty but it is politics. This was also post-Cold War and pre-credit crunch. I think there was a lot more optimism around a falsely confident ongoing economic growth that would make much of this debate pointless. A lot of people did believe we were beyond the 20th century paradigm and in a new age of economic and fiscal ‘rules’.

Your last point is really inportant - think back to thosd times now - a post-war era, with the prospect of endless economic growth. It really was, wirh hindsight, a good era. 'The end of history'.

And i agree with the rest of your post - the old maxim that politics is the art of the possible, springs to mind.

[Jack]

So should we just scrap our armed forces and plough it all into health? Assuming that is not your view, then you accept that a line has to be drawn somewhere?

Of course it is legitimate to debate where that line should be, and that it should be shifted here or there, but i dount many would agree that we should scrap our aircraft carriers, our nuclear capability, and a huge chunk of our air force?

As a society we cant afford everyrhing we want and need, so we either need to radically rethink how we spend our national resources, or massively increase taxes (or both!).

Your last comment is really dangerous. I dont know where the next conventional conflict will be, but i am positive there will be one. The history of humanity shows us that. And in a world with more people competing for fewer resources, with am emergent superpower in the far east and an aggressive Russia on europe's eastern border, nuclear proliferation and a perennially unstable middle east, it woyld be incredibly dangerous to assume we no longer need a military. Not to mention the 2% of GDP we are required to spend om defence for Nato membership.

And even if we did scrap trident, our aircraft carriers that wouls still only pay for NHSScotland (at current levels) for about 8 or 9 years. What would you cut after that?

My point about the armed forces is that things have changed somewhat in the theatre of war. We're still armed basically in the same way as Laurence of Arabia was romping over the sand dunes, pointy things fired from various weapons, while the weapon of choice these days is a hired truck on the pavement of London Bridge followed by low tech butchery.

With all the will in the world HMS Queen Elizabeth, even if it was sailing under the bridge at the time would have been useless.

The hack of NHS computer systems, allegedly by another "enemy" could not have been mitigated against by a conventional army. The UK Government and many UK companies are under daily threat from this sort of attack.

In my opinion we need to fundamentally rethink how we defend our shores. Our armed forces, even if armed to the teeth with weapons we had full control over, are ineffective and therefore a waste of money.

Our enemies are using their heads and a lap top. They're ponying up £50 for a days van hire and a knife set from Tesco and our multi billion pound defence budget isn't defending us.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

My point about the armed forces is that things have changed somewhat in the theatre of war. We're still armed basically in the same way as Laurence of Arabia was romping over the sand dunes, pointy things fired from various weapons, while the weapon of choice these days is a hired truck on the pavement of London Bridge followed by low tech butchery.

With all the will in the world HMS Queen Elizabeth, even if it was sailing under the bridge at the time would have been useless.

The hack of NHS computer systems, allegedly by another "enemy" could not have been mitigated against by a conventional army. The UK Government and many UK companies are under daily threat from this sort of attack.

In my opinion we need to fundamentally rethink how we defend our shores. Our armed forces, even if armed to the teeth with weapons we had full control over, are ineffective and therefore a waste of money.

Our enemies are using their heads and a lap top. They're ponying up £50 for a days van hire and a knife set from Tesco and our multi billion pound defence budget isn't defending us.

But the military isnt designed to stop terrorism, thats not its job. The police and the security services do that. A bit of a red herring of an argument. Likewise cyber attacks. But im sure you wouldnt advocate a cut to the funding for police and security services in order to divert money to healthcare (which is, indirectly, what is happening at the moment)?

And im sure that you are aware that china is acrively building aircraft carriers, and russia, france and the US also do. Its a fundamental part of any power projection capabilities.

And even if you are right, and we need to massively change the nature of our military, none of what you say would suhgest to me that our world is so safe and benign that we can start diverting money from the defence budget to the health and social care budget (which already dwarfs it) - you seem to be arguing for changes within defence, which would in itself, do nothing to help health and social care unless you are talking about cutting one budget to spend in another.

[Mibbes Aye]

But the military isnt designed to stop terrorism, thats not its job. The police and the security services do that. A bit of a red herring of an argument. Likewise cyber attacks. But im sure you wouldnt advocate a cut to the funding for police and security services in order to divert money to healthcare (which is, indirectly, what is happening at the moment)?

And im sure that you are aware that china is acrively building aircraft carriers, and russia, france and the US also do. Its a fundamental part of any power projection capabilities.

And even if you are right, and we need to massively change the nature of our military, none of what you say would suhgest to me that our world is so safe and benign that we can start diverting money from the defence budget to the health and social care budget (which already dwarfs it) - you seem to be arguing for changes within defence, which would in itself, do nothing to help health and social care unless you are talking about cutting one budget to spend in another.

Just as an aside - within that, health accounts for around £5 for every £1 spent on social care. One of the problems with austerity was that a disproportionate share of the cuts was passed onto local government (so when the libraries get closed and the potholes don't get fixed, the councils take the blame, not national government).

As social care funding sits with councils, the pressures on them grew massively to meet the needs of people requiring social care, almost certainly creating more demand on the health system. It's another example of sharp politics informing policy but in some respects it seems far more shortsighted and morally dubious than the P3 arrangements signed up to, either in Holyrood or Westminster.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Just as an aside - within that, health accounts for around £5 for every £1 spent on social care. One of the problems with austerity was that a disproportionate share of the cuts was passed onto local government (so when the libraries get closed and the potholes don't get fixed, the councils take the blame, not national government).

As social care funding sits with councils, the pressures on them grew massively to meet the needs of people requiring social care, almost certainly creating more demand on the health system. It's another example of sharp politics informing policy but in some respects it seems far more shortsighted and morally dubious than the P3 arrangements signed up to, either in Holyrood or Westminster.

Agree with that mate.

All any of thesr moves will do is mitigate impact, to one degree or another. There is simply no way to reorganise or legislate or restructure your way out of a situation with exponentially increases in demand, and a shrinking ability to supply. And the odd extra hundred million here or there will be a finger in the dyke.

Something much more radical will need done imo.

[ronaldo7]

Well done, Christina.

It's a pity we've had such a rise in food banks in the Tory years, but at least you're trying to help.

https://t.co/cst2mBusg1

[johnbc70]

SNP promise to set up a new specialist programme to recruit graduates for specialist teaching posts by June 2017 - how many recruited so far? 0. Just at tender stage. Poor show.

Promised new standards framework for school inspections not delivered as well - why not?

[ronaldo7]

The choices we make in government define us.

https://t.co/0E2Kh0BU5Q

[johnbc70]

Funny how you post something negative about the SNP and it's completely ignored, even from the party faithful.

[-Jonesy-]

Funny how you post something negative about the SNP and it's completely ignored, even from the party faithful.

Maybe it's just you...

[johnbc70]

Maybe it's just you...

Maybe what's just me?

[snooky]

Shocking news of back-ups at hospitals in England over the weekend.
SNP to blame surely :coffee:

:stirrer:

[marinello59]

Shocking news of back-ups at hospitals in England over the weekend.
SNP to blame surely :coffee:

:stirrer:

You should post that on Twitter. It will be fact that people are blaming the SNP within minutes. Even though absolutely nobody except an SNP supporter would suggest that they are. :greengrin

[snooky]

You should post that on Twitter. It will be fact that people are blaming the SNP within minutes. Even though absolutely nobody except an SNP supporter would suggest that they are. :greengrin

Your're right too (if you don't count Brian Wilson) :wink:

[marinello59]

Your're right too (if you don't count Brian Wilson) :wink:

Bran Wilson has blamed the SNP for what is happening in English hospitals just now? That would be mental. Got a link?

[ronaldo7]

Shocking news of back-ups at hospitals in England over the weekend.
SNP to blame surely :coffee:

:stirrer:

The main headline on today's news in Scotland has been the single crewing on Ambulances. This freedom of information request was done in August last year. It seems the Tories have waited until the NHS is under pressure before they raised it, dutifully helped by the news teams in Glasgow. :wink:

Same old tories, trying to deflect from their inability to run a professional service south of the border.

[marinello59]

The main headline on today's news in Scotland has been the single crewing on Ambulances. This freedom of information request was done in August this year. It seems the Tories have waited until the NHS is under pressure before they raised it, dutifully helped by the news teams in Glasgow. :wink:

Same old tories, trying to deflect from their inability to run a professional service south of the border.

Surely you have a sneaking admiration for their use of deflection. :greengrin
You don’t happen to have a link to Wilson blaming the SNP for what is happening in the hospitals down South right now do you? He must have totally lost it if that’s what he has said.

[johnbc70]

SNP promise to set up a new specialist programme to recruit graduates for specialist teaching posts by June 2017 - how many recruited so far? 0. Just at tender stage. Poor show.

Promised new standards framework for school inspections not delivered as well - why not?

So is post above correct as I am surprised nobody, well somebody, has not told me how I am wrong and it's fake news? Is it?

[ronaldo7]

Surely you have a sneaking admiration for their use of deflection. :greengrin
You don’t happen to have a link to Wilson blaming the SNP for what is happening in the hospitals down South right now do you? He must have totally lost it if that’s what he has said.

No idea what you're on about guv.:greengrin

In other news... 98.7% of Scottish ambulances are double crewed, and if a single crewed ambulance is sent to an emergency as the closest person, a double crewed ambulance is sent as back up.

Not such a bad story now is it?

The real story is, why would the BBC and STV run this today when it was available in August. FOI done by the Tories and held back for maximum damage?

[marinello59]

No idea what you're on about guv.:greengrin

In other news... 98.7% of Scottish ambulances are double crewed, and if a single crewed ambulance is sent to an emergency as the closest person, a double crewed ambulance is sent as back up.

Not such a bad story now is it?

I made no comment on the Ambulance story, it’s a non-story anyway. I think we agree on that one. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

I made no comment on the Ambulance story, it’s a non-story anyway. I think we agree on that one. :greengrin

And I made no comment on Brian Wilson.:greengrin

[marinello59]

And I made no comment on Brian Wilson.:greengrin

I’ll wait on Snooky to get me the link then. I know you are usually ahead of the game on these things though so thought it was worth asking. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

I’ll wait on Snooky to get me the link then. I know you are usually ahead of the game on these things though so thought it was worth asking. :greengrin

This is the only Brian Wilson, I listen to. :wink:

19992

[Mibbes Aye]

Non-partisan point, honest.

Neither England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland are managing to cope with the pressures in their health systems. Doesn't matter which party has power, they would all face the same problems. That's been the case for long periods of the NHS's existence and has only got worse as we develop more complicated ways of keeping people with ill-health alive for longer - sad, but true.

The only periods where the NHS has been in a very healthy state have been where there's been societal affluence on a scale that doesn't happen very often. It benefited after its set-up when Britain enjoyed growth in the first half of the 1950s and it benefited when Labour turned on the spending taps in the second Blair term.

Other than that, regardless of political hue, it's an inconvenient truth that we don't adequately pay for something we all think we should have.

That doesn't mean we should hike taxes to fund the system. That would become a never-ending story of feeding the beast.

It does mean we should consider the whole system - housing, social care and health - as well as looking at the dynamic within health, where there is far too much fetishising of the latest, state of the art technology, and far too much focus on waiting times for elective surgery, meaning that resources will never be freed up to be reallocated to community care, which maybe just might alleviate some of the issues that hospitals are facing.

[ronaldo7]

Non-partisan point, honest.

Neither England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland are managing to cope with the pressures in their health systems. Doesn't matter which party has power, they would all face the same problems. That's been the case for long periods of the NHS's existence and has only got worse as we develop more complicated ways of keeping people with ill-health alive for longer - sad, but true.

The only periods where the NHS has been in a very healthy state have been where there's been societal affluence on a scale that doesn't happen very often. It benefited after its set-up when Britain enjoyed growth in the first half of the 1950s and it benefited when Labour turned on the spending taps in the second Blair term.

Other than that, regardless of political hue, it's an inconvenient truth that we don't adequately pay for something we all think we should have.

That doesn't mean we should hike taxes to fund the system. That would become a never-ending story of feeding the beast.

It does mean we should consider the whole system - housing, social care and health - as well as looking at the dynamic within health, where there is far too much fetishising of the latest, state of the art technology, and far too much focus on waiting times for elective surgery, meaning that resources will never be freed up to be reallocated to community care, which maybe just might alleviate some of the issues that hospitals are facing.

I'd agree with that, although some areas of the UK could look and listen to others.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40494488

[Mibbes Aye]

I'd agree with that, although some areas of the UK could look and listen to others.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40494488

Yes and maybe other parts of the UK could beg office workers to volunteer to clean hospital wards, which is what's happening in Scotland.

I tried to make it non-partisan, non-point scoring. Shame you couldn't.

And a six-month old link is way behind for you, and sort of ignores the whole winter crisis thing. Were you just clearing your inbox :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Yes and maybe other parts of the UK could beg office workers to volunteer to clean hospital wards, which is what's happening in Scotland.

I tried to make it non-partisan, non-point scoring. Shame you couldn't.

And a six-month old link is way behind for you, and sort of ignores the whole winter crisis thing. Were you just clearing your inbox :greengrin

I didn't.

Merely pointing out that parts of the UK (and that includes Scotland) can learn from other parts.

Shame you couldn't see that though.

[marinello59]

I didn't.

Merely pointing out that parts of the UK (and that includes Scotland) can learn from other parts.

Shame you couldn't see that though.

:faf:

[Mibbes Aye]

I didn't.

Merely pointing out that parts of the UK (and that includes Scotland) can learn from other parts.

Shame you couldn't see that though.

That's okay.

Should office workers be taken away from their duties and asked to clean hospital wards? Will they have the right training in infection control to avoid making matters worse? They're not trained healthcare professionals. Is this just a recipe for making matters worse?

England, Wales and Northern Ireland might learn from this, you're right.

Anyways, as I said in my original post there's a more fundamental problem that none of the parties seem capable of acknowledging publicly. In some respects, the Tories actually seem to be doing their best to acknowledge it 'un-publicly' by driving the NHS to the cliff-edge, if not over it.

Time for grown-up and non-partisan reflection on what we want and expect from health services, with then a massive intake of breath when we realise what it might cost, followed by a belated reappraisal of what we could do upstream to reduce the pressures on acute hospital care.

[ronaldo7]

:faf:

What's wrong with you?

Their are 4 Health services in the UK. I posted a link to one from my country. :rolleyes:

Maybe we should have the Tories post links from England, and the Labour peeps post links from Wales.:dunno:

[ronaldo7]

That's okay.

Should office workers be taken away from their duties and asked to clean hospital wards? Will they have the right training in infection control to avoid making matters worse? They're not trained healthcare professionals. Is this just a recipe for making matters worse?

England, Wales and Northern Ireland might learn from this, you're right.

Anyways, as I said in my original post there's a more fundamental problem that none of the parties seem capable of acknowledging publicly. In some respects, the Tories actually seem to be doing their best to acknowledge it 'un-publicly' by driving the NHS to the cliff-edge, if not over it.

Time for grown-up and non-partisan reflection on what we want and expect from health services, with then a massive intake of breath when we realise what it might cost, followed by a belated reappraisal of what we could do upstream to reduce the pressures on acute hospital care.

Thanks.:aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

What's wrong with you?

Their are 4 Health services in the UK. I posted a link to one from my country. :rolleyes:

Maybe we should have the Tories post links from England, and the Labour peeps post links from Wales.:dunno:

So only SNP voters should post on Scottish matters?

Would it not be easier for them just to post lots of pro-Nationalist hyperlinks, without discussion?

Oh, hold on.......

[ronaldo7]

So only SNP voters should post on Scottish matters?

Would it not be easier for them just to post lots of pro-Nationalist hyperlinks, without discussion?

Oh, hold on.......

:faf:

I thought you were up on your NHS and who runs what in each country.

Seems not.

[Mibbes Aye]

Thanks.:aok:

You would come across as far better if you acknowledged that the state of our health services was a problem which no party has yet managed to address, but has been something your newfound party has had ten years to address. The record of the SNP is abysmal but I would concede that I don't think anyone would have made a success of it, barring huge (and unproductive) tax hikes, or enjoying the circumstances that only maybe two administrations in seventy years have enjoyed.

Still, there's being abysmal and then there's being abysmal and doing something about it. Office workers being asked to clean hospital wards is as bad as it got during the worst of the Tory years in the eighties and nineties but you have no answer to that? Are you really defending the management of a health service where admin staff are being asked to prevent MRSA and Staph?

I genuinely would welcome you explaining why we are in such a state, in your own words.

Up to you whether you fall back on hyperlinks and emoticons........

[ronaldo7]

You would come across as far better if you acknowledged that the state of our health services was a problem which no party has yet managed to address, but has been something your newfound party has had ten years to address. The record of the SNP is abysmal but I would concede that I don't think anyone would have made a success of it, barring huge (and unproductive) tax hikes, or enjoying the circumstances that only maybe two administrations in seventy years have enjoyed.

Still, there's being abysmal and then there's being abysmal and doing something about it. Office workers being asked to clean hospital wards is as bad as it got during the worst of the Tory years in the eighties and nineties but you have no answer to that? Are you really defending the management of a health service where admin staff are being asked to prevent MRSA and Staph?

I genuinely would welcome you explaining why we are in such a state, in your own words.

Up to you whether you fall back on hyperlinks and emoticons........

I've already agreed with the bit in bold on post 427, but in your haste to argue, you've failed to see the wood for the trees, as is your want.

[snooky]

Bran Wilson has blamed the SNP for what is happening in English hospitals just now? That would be mental. Got a link?

:greengrin I was being facetious, though the little rottweiler may well have. He blames the SNP for everything else that's gone wrong in his world.

[Mr Grieves]

Corbyn defending the Labour run NHS Wales today, it's UK government funding cuts that are causing problems. I'm guessing it's the same for NHS Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-politics-42427711/pmqs-may-and-corbyn-trade-blows-over-welsh-nhs

PMQs: May and Corbyn trade blows over Welsh NHS
Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have clashed over the NHS in Wales during the last Prime Minister's Questions of the year.

The prime minister and the Labour leader traded figures about the relative performance of the health services in England and Wales.

Mr Corbyn attacked the UK government's record on waiting times and NHS staffing in England.

Mrs May responded by quoting statistics about Labour's record on health in Wales.

Mr Corbyn then defended the Welsh Government's record and said it depended on a grant from Westminster that is being cut by five per cent by 2020.

[johnbc70]

Always someone else's fault.

[ronaldo7]

Corbyn defending the Labour run NHS Wales today, it's UK government funding cuts that are causing problems. I'm guessing it's the same for NHS Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-politics-42427711/pmqs-may-and-corbyn-trade-blows-over-welsh-nhs

PMQs: May and Corbyn trade blows over Welsh NHS
Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have clashed over the NHS in Wales during the last Prime Minister's Questions of the year.

The prime minister and the Labour leader traded figures about the relative performance of the health services in England and Wales.

Mr Corbyn attacked the UK government's record on waiting times and NHS staffing in England.

Mrs May responded by quoting statistics about Labour's record on health in Wales.

Mr Corbyn then defended the Welsh Government's record and said it depended on a grant from Westminster that is being cut by five per cent by 2020.



He can't have it both ways. Trouble is, he's listening to Dick and Neil when he comes to Scotland.

20026:wink:

[xyz23jc]

He can't have it both ways. Trouble is, he's listening to Dick and Neil when he comes to Scotland.

20026:wink:

Either that or simply reading and listening to our unbiased impartial press and newspapers! :greengrin:whistle:

[marinello59]

The problems at Police Scotland continue and now we have allegations of Government interference around the publication of a report in to the SPA. Surely even the staunchest of SNP supporters can’t defend the Scottish Government on this one.

[ronaldo7]

The problems at Police Scotland continue and now we have allegations of Government interference around the publication of a report in to the SPA. Surely even the staunchest of SNP supporters can’t defend the Scottish Government on this one.

Don't you want to hear both sides of the argument before forming the :protest:

[marinello59]

Don't you want to hear both sides of the argument before forming the :protest:

I’m talking about the whole Police Scotland project being a mess here. Care to defend it rather than your usual deflection? That’s if you can.

[ronaldo7]

I’m talking about the whole Police Scotland project being a mess here. Care to defend it rather than your usual deflection? That’s if you can.

As I've said, shouldn't we get both sides of the story before getting the pitch forks out? If Matheson has done wrong, he'll be dealt with accordingly.

[snooky]

"Energy giant BP has announced two new North Sea oil and gas discoveries".
Oh no. The last thing the Indy guys need is another carrot. :whistle:

[cabbageandribs1875]

good to see ruth davidson falling back down the polls again, i hope the trend continues, solid vote for the SNP over both scottish unionist party's :agree:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15912514.Blow_for_Scottish_Conservatives_in_new_po litical_poll/?ref=mr&lp=2

[speedy_gonzales]

good to see ruth davidson falling back down the polls again, i hope the trend continues, solid vote for the SNP over both scottish unionist party's :agree:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15912514.Blow_for_Scottish_Conservatives_in_new_po litical_poll/?ref=mr&lp=2
I cannae get my head around the fact that that survey shows the Tories polling at 24% whilst the LibDems are only 7%,,,, what's going on in (this particular place of) the world?

[ronaldo7]

Domestic abuse Scotland bill passed. Now that's a Guid use of parliamentary time. Well done.

[Jack]

I cannae get my head around the fact that that survey shows the Tories polling at 24% whilst the LibDems are only 7%,,,, what's going on in (this particular place of) the world?

I think most folk see the LibDems as a nonsense party that are totally unreliable and likely to sell out at the drop of a hat.

Their 7% is probably the core support that were Liberals when they were trendy and young.

[Geo_1875]

I think most folk see the LibDems as a nonsense party that are totally unreliable and likely to sell out at the drop of a hat.

Their 7% is probably the core support that were Liberals when they were trendy and young.

Most of them live on the Islands and think Carmichael is an honest man.

[EH54]

Check out the shock result of the liberals in Sunderland though, I doubt it will have any impact in Scotland but there message for a second Referendum is clearly working in Sunderland

LDEM: 53.9% (+49.5)
LAB: 34.8% (-15.9)
CON: 5.4% (-7.2)
UKIP: 4.2% (-24.7)
GRN: 1.7% (-1.8)

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Check out the shock result of the liberals in Sunderland though, I doubt it will have any impact in Scotland but there message for a second Referendum is clearly working in Sunderland

LDEM: 53.9% (+49.5)
LAB: 34.8% (-15.9)
CON: 5.4% (-7.2)
UKIP: 4.2% (-24.7)
GRN: 1.7% (-1.8)

A case of buyer's guilt?

[Just Alf]

You may be right... Don't know the exact details but we had family up from Durham at Christmas for a bit and the talk was around how some "international" companies were changing plans to accommodate Brexit. It basically seemed to be around how currently they can build stuff (cars??) using components from all across Europe and they're treated the same, as soon as parts are sourced from outside the EU then free trade rules dissappear making the whole product dearer. Bottom line is that they were stopping expansion in the UK in favour of France and Spain... I'm guessing the worry is the next step would be a decline in the existing production in the UK? That said they'd surely want to still sell into our market.



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[snooky]

The north east of England voted for Brexit apparently.
The old phrase of 'turkeys voting for an early Christmas' comes to mind.

[hibsbollah]

You may be right... Don't know the exact details but we had family up from Durham at Christmas for a bit and the talk was around how some "international" companies were changing plans to accommodate Brexit. It basically seemed to be around how currently they can build stuff (cars??) using components from all across Europe and they're treated the same, as soon as parts are sourced from outside the EU then free trade rules dissappear making the whole product dearer. Bottom line is that they were stopping expansion in the UK in favour of France and Spain... I'm guessing the worry is the next step would be a decline in the existing production in the UK? That said they'd surely want to still sell into our market.



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Im guessing they were referring to Nissan. If they pull out and the engineering firms in the supply chain go to the wall then Sunderland basically has nothing left.

[RyeSloan]

Im guessing they were referring to Nissan. If they pull out and the engineering firms in the supply chain go to the wall then Sunderland basically has nothing left.

A rather unlikely scenario...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/08/28/nissan-increase-production-sunderland-plant-fifth/amp/

[johnbc70]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-43087805

Hopefully he does the right thing and hand it back.

Just shows it all parties that have some sinister people in their ranks, despite what some will make out.

[ronaldo7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-43087805

Hopefully he does the right thing and hand it back.

Just shows it all parties that have some sinister people in their ranks, despite what some will make out.

If it was a Tory entitled to the cash under the rules, you'd not hear a peep.

[johnbc70]

If it was a Tory entitled to the cash under the rules, you'd not hear a peep.

Why is that?

[Northernhibee]

If it was a Tory entitled to the cash under the rules, you'd not hear a peep.

Whatabouttery.

[Mibbes Aye]

If it was a Tory entitled to the cash under the rules, you'd not hear a peep.

That’s really not true.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Why is that?

Yeah, because there have never been any scandals involving sex and money and tory MPs / MSPs have there...

How much werr mcletchies taxi expenses that resulted in him resigning again?

[johnbc70]

Yeah, because there have never been any scandals involving sex and money and tory MPs / MSPs have there...

How much werr mcletchies taxi expenses that resulted in him resigning again?

Yes, we never ever hear anything about the Tories. I blame the BBC.

[ronaldo7]

Yes, we never ever hear anything about the Tories. I blame the BBC.

How are those investigations into the 30 Tory MPs in the sex allegations going?

FWIW, I'd be happy to see all parties come together to ensure Ministers should not be getting a golden goodbye. When theirs been a Ministerial pay freeze since 2009, and the recent pay rise given to MP's, where SNP MP's have give their rise to charity.

I won't hold my breath on what the Tories have done with their rise.

#inthebackpocket

[Northernhibee]

How are those investigations into the 30 Tory MPs in the sex allegations going?

FWIW, I'd be happy to see all parties come together to ensure Ministers should not be getting a golden goodbye. When theirs been a Ministerial pay freeze since 2009, and the recent pay rise given to MP's, where SNP MP's have give their rise to charity.

I won't hold my breath on what the Tories have done with their rise.

#inthebackpocket

More whattaboutery and deflection :wink:

[ronaldo7]

How are those investigations into the 30 Tory MPs in the sex allegations going?

FWIW, I'd be happy to see all parties come together to ensure Ministers should not be getting a golden goodbye. When theirs been a Ministerial pay freeze since 2009, and the recent pay rise given to MP's, where SNP MP's have give their rise to charity.

I won't hold my breath on what the Tories have done with their rise.

#inthebackpocket


More whattaboutery and deflection :wink:

:wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

How are those investigations into the 30 Tory MPs in the sex allegations going?

FWIW, I'd be happy to see all parties come together to ensure Ministers should not be getting a golden goodbye. When theirs been a Ministerial pay freeze since 2009, and the recent pay rise given to MP's, where SNP MP's have give their rise to charity.

I won't hold my breath on what the Tories have done with their rise.

#inthebackpocket

Classic deflection...

"That would be an ecumenical matter father..." 😂

[ronaldo7]

Classic deflection...

"That would be an ecumenical matter father..." 😂

Should've gone to specsavers. :wink:

[xyz23jc]

Should've gone to specsavers. :wink:

See the BetterTogetherBrothers BritNat Tag team are still in action! :thumbsup::greengrin:agree::rolleyes:

[speedy_gonzales]

See the BetterTogetherBrothers BritNat Tag team are still in action! :thumbsup::greengrin:agree::rolleyes:
For the sake of variety am I allowed to raise the recent issue of councillor Lewis Ritchie's suspension by the party?

Whilst political parties shouldn't be tarred by the actions of individuals, and personally I genuinely do think this is a "nothing to see here" moment, certainly by Eric Joyce standards, I think it's a shame because there is cracking SNP engagement at grass roots level at Leith/Pilrig.

[One Day Soon]

Lol

[xyz23jc]

For the sake of variety am I allowed to raise the recent issue of councillor Lewis Ritchie's suspension by the party?

Whilst political parties shouldn't be tarred by the actions of individuals, and personally I genuinely do think this is a "nothing to see hear" moment, certainly by Eric Joyce standards, I think it's a shame because there is cracking SNP engagement at grass roots level at Leith/Pilrig.

Sorry amigo! Just trying to be funny.... and obviously failing! No offence meant. :agree:

[Geo_1875]

Nobody mentioning the independent investigation into his behaviour before piling on?

[ronaldo7]

See the BetterTogetherBrothers BritNat Tag team are still in action! :thumbsup::greengrin:agree::rolleyes:

:tee hee:

I would have thought the tag team would have tried to get to the bottom of the Sean Morton story before casting aspersions on someone without knowing the facts. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

For the sake of variety am I allowed to raise the recent issue of councillor Lewis Ritchie's suspension by the party?

Whilst political parties shouldn't be tarred by the actions of individuals, and personally I genuinely do think this is a "nothing to see here" moment, certainly by Eric Joyce standards, I think it's a shame because there is cracking SNP engagement at grass roots level at Leith/Pilrig.

Why had he been suspended? He wsd the guy that had a go at us in the media about not paying the living wage, only dor Leeann to put him right!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Nobody mentioning the independent investigation into his behaviour before piling on?

I thought the SNP had hired private investigators? Surely if they are being paid by the SNP, it is an internal investigatiob rather than an independent one?

[johnbc70]

:tee hee:

I would have thought the tag team would have tried to get to the bottom of the Sean Morton story before casting aspersions on someone without knowing the facts. :wink:

This makes no sense. What is the point you are making?

[speedy_gonzales]

Why had he been suspended? He wsd the guy that had a go at us in the media about not paying the living wage, only dor Leeann to put him right!

Allegations of him being physically aggressive to another party member in the back of a taxi during a party conference or such like


https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/exclusive-snp-suspends-edinburgh-councillor-lewis-ritchie

[speedy_gonzales]

Sorry amigo! Just trying to be funny.... and obviously failing! No offence meant. :agree:

None taken whatsoever,,,,

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Allegations of him being physically aggressive to another party member in the back of a taxi during a party conference or such like


https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/exclusive-snp-suspends-edinburgh-councillor-lewis-ritchie

Sounds like bollox...

[speedy_gonzales]

Sounds like bollox...

Sounds like any other work shindig where alcohol may or may not have been consumed, handbags at 10 paces, unfortunate blot on the young mans record though.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Sounds like any other work shindig where alcohol may or may not have been consumed, handbags at 10 paces, unfortunate blot on the young mans record though.

Exactly. We want our politicians to be more normal, and then pillory them when they are.

[lucky]

It’s time we allowed politicians to live. All of us make mistakes and have done daft things over the years but we expect politicians to live a sheltered life then we complain they are not in touch with reality.

[Jack]

It’s time we allowed politicians to live. All of us make mistakes and have done daft things over the years but we expect politicians to live a sheltered life then we complain they are not in touch with reality.

I agree to a point. However I'd expect those responsible for forming our Laws respect them.

Fair enough low level stuff like parking tickets, handbags at 10 paces sort of stuff*. But I think there shouldn't be any of them there convicted of crimes of dishonesty, theft or violence*.

How can you expect the public to respect the law of the lawmakers don't?

[speedy_gonzales]

Councillor Ritchie leaves the SNP, (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/punch-row-councillor-lewis-ritchie-quits-snp-1-4692241) and in doing so means the SNP now hold the same number of seats as the Tories,,,,and I thought the council was already in a mess!!

[lucky]

Slight change of subject but the SNP plans to merge Police Scotland and the BTP have been delayed indefinitely. No one in the rail industry or BTP wants this to go ahead, it’s time it was scrapped not delayed

[speedy_gonzales]

Slight change of subject but the SNP plans to merge Police Scotland and the BTP have been delayed indefinitely. No one in the rail industry or BTP wants this to go ahead, it’s time it was scrapped not delayed

Delighted to hear this, was speaking to a couple of Hornby's a week past Friday, and although they were professional about the subject I picked up severe reservations.
I was never clear on what benefits the merger had but I could see drawbacks from a railway infrastructure point of view, in relation to both rail crime and incidents.

[lucky]

Delighted to hear this, was speaking to a couple of Hornby's a week past Friday, and although they were professional about the subject I picked up severe reservations.
I was never clear on what benefits the merger had but I could see drawbacks from a railway infrastructure point of view, in relation to both trail crime and incidents.

That’s the problem no one can see the benefits only the SNP seem to think it’s a good idea. I’d be happy for a Transport Police under the control of Holyrood as a compromise but in reality there’s no need to break up the BTP

[RyeSloan]

That’s the problem no one can see the benefits only the SNP seem to think it’s a good idea. I’d be happy for a Transport Police under the control of Holyrood as a compromise but in reality there’s no need to break up the BTP

On the flip side why does Transport (or as it seems just the railways) need a separate force?

[Mibbes Aye]

On the flip side why does Transport (or as it seems just the railways) need a separate force?

I'm not sure what the merits and demerits are of a stand-alone force. I'm guessing that the arguments for will include reference to specialisation - the BTP must deal with hundreds of suicides a year that need managed respectfully but also in a way that doesn't stop the network from ceasing to function.

[lucky]

On the flip side why does Transport (or as it seems just the railways) need a separate force?

The railway has hundreds of different laws and has different issues to deal with in including suicides. If the BRITISH Transport Police were not called BRITISH does anyone think the SNP would be interested in dissolving them?

[marinello59]

Slight change of subject but the SNP plans to merge Police Scotland and the BTP have been delayed indefinitely. No one in the rail industry or BTP wants this to go ahead, it’s time it was scrapped not delayed

Good. The needless and botched creation of Police Scotland has been bad enough, no need to add to the mess.

[RyeSloan]

I'm not sure what the merits and demerits are of a stand-alone force. I'm guessing that the arguments for will include reference to specialisation - the BTP must deal with hundreds of suicides a year that need managed respectfully but also in a way that doesn't stop the network from ceasing to function.

Yeah maybe true but how is that nay different to running an organisation that has beat bobbies and murder detectives and specialist firearms units. Substantially different needs within the same structure.

Surely the BTP element would just be another ‘division’ with its own special training requirements but without the need for a whole separate organisation to run it.

Maybe there is some reason why the BTP need their own stand alone functions and processes to work out how many people they need and what shifts they will work but I’m not convinced...my guess is that the existing structure suits the vested interests of those within it and they will resist being subsumed into a bigger organisation to protect their ‘special’ status.

More of a gut feel than anything else but I’m not buying the need for a wholly separate organisation to police just the railways when we have one organisation to police absolutely everything else.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yeah maybe true but how is that nay different to running an organisation that has beat bobbies and murder detectives and specialist firearms units. Substantially different needs within the same structure.

Surely the BTP element would just be another ‘division’ with its own special training requirements but without the need for a whole separate organisation to run it.

Maybe there is some reason why the BTP need their own stand alone functions and processes to work out how many people they need and what shifts they will work but I’m not convinced...my guess is that the existing structure suits the vested interests of those within it and they will resist being subsumed into a bigger organisation to protect their ‘special’ status.

More of a gut feel than anything else but I’m not buying the need for a wholly separate organisation to police just the railways when we have one organisation to police absolutely everything else.

Not disagreeing but looking at it UK-wide we don't have one organisation to police absolutely everything else and as M59 may have alluded to, centralisation hasn't worked out that well in Scotland. :greengrin.

It's also curious because transport police/transit police aren't unique to here. I can understand that terrorist attacks have often focused on train and underground systems so there's definitely a counter-terrorism angle with a particular bent (i.e. the distinct nature of the locations where the attacks will take place) that definitely predicates towards specially-trained teams.

I think a better comparison yet might be with other policing structures that are dedicated towards infrastructure - the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Central Motorways Police Group as examples - where there's a high level of specialism and it is pragmatic to have cross-boundary working, whether regional, or UK-wide, rather than devolving responsibility to local level.

With regard to the point about vested interests, I'm not sure how politically adept the senior officers in BTP are but I wouldn't be surprised if they and their status also held the support of both the RMT and the rail operators. Which makes a powerful combination.

[RyeSloan]

Not disagreeing but looking at it UK-wide we don't have one organisation to police absolutely everything else and as M59 may have alluded to, centralisation hasn't worked out that well in Scotland. :greengrin.

It's also curious because transport police/transit police aren't unique to here. I can understand that terrorist attacks have often focused on train and underground systems so there's definitely a counter-terrorism angle with a particular bent (i.e. the distinct nature of the locations where the attacks will take place) that definitely predicates towards specially-trained teams.

I think a better comparison yet might be with other policing structures that are dedicated towards infrastructure - the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Central Motorways Police Group as examples - where there's a high level of specialism and it is pragmatic to have cross-boundary working, whether regional, or UK-wide, rather than devolving responsibility to local level.

With regard to the point about vested interests, I'm not sure how politically adept the senior officers in BTP are but I wouldn't be surprised if they and their status also held the support of both the RMT and the rail operators. Which makes a powerful combination.

I think you have probably hit the nail on he head with your last paragraph!

As it is I’m not against specialisation but I suppose I have a natural tendency to see vested interests and resistance to change rather than genuine reasons when I see some of this type of stuff....which maybe says more about me than the merits or otherwise of breaking up he BTP [emoji16]

But that said Police Scotland has hardly been a roaring success so maybe the BTP is best left alone if it’s doing its job just fine as it is (again of which I have no idea if it is or not! [emoji23])

[Mibbes Aye]

I think you have probably hit the nail on he head with your last paragraph!

As it is I’m not against specialisation but I suppose I have a natural tendency to see vested interests and resistance to change rather than genuine reasons when I see some of this type of stuff....which maybe says more about me than the merits or otherwise of breaking up he BTP [emoji16]

But that said Police Scotland has hardly been a roaring success so maybe the BTP is best left alone if it’s doing its job just fine as it is (again of which I have no idea if it is or not! [emoji23])

In fairness, that's usually my starting point when there's contestation about change too - "Cui bono?" and all that :agree:

[snooky]

Re. this proposed bridge to Northern Ireland?
How serious is this latest proposal? Can I suggest it's a bit of skullduggery by the SNP stirring it up re. the EU border problem in Ireland. :greengrin
If the border there remains open post Brexit and we have a bridge link, well..... :cb

[lucky]

Anyone know what Mark McDonald has actually done? There’s only rumours of him being a sex pest but no actual detail. It seems strange that Sturgeon wants him out of Parliament but the SNP refuse to release the charges made against him.