SNP nonsense

[James310]

https://twitter.com/JoanMcAlpine/status/1141096827032412160?s=19

MEP Alyn Smith's boyfriend, who according to SNP MP Joan McApline has abused her and other women on Twitter, has leaked the next steps on the gender ID legislation. She is not happy.

Alyn Smith's boyfriend has a history of abusing women on Twitter and it looks like Alyn has leaked the next steps to his boyfriend who has posted it on Twitter.

Wings called him out about this back when Alyn was lecturing people about stopping abuse on Twitter. Bit of a hypocrite when your partner is guilty of online abuse.

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1123869760578576389

Seems there is a lot going on behind the scenes with this.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's pretty obvious that it wouldn't stand up in court or he wouldn't have apologised and admitted he didn't have any evidence to support his allegation when threatened with legal action.

I agree. But that still doesn't mean he didn't have evidence. It just means he didn't have evidence that would stand up in court. There's also the issue of ongoing legal costs and time consumption. The party with no policies doesn't do much in the background, so they have all the free time in the world. Alyn Smith on the other hand does real actual work.

[lord bunberry]

https://twitter.com/JoanMcAlpine/status/1141096827032412160?s=19

MEP Alyn Smith's boyfriend, who according to SNP MP Joan McApline has abused her and other women on Twitter, has leaked the next steps on the gender ID legislation. She is not happy.

Alyn Smith's boyfriend has a history of abusing women on Twitter and it looks like Alyn has leaked the next steps to his boyfriend who has posted it on Twitter.

Wings called him out about this back when Alyn was lecturing people about stopping abuse on Twitter. Bit of a hypocrite when your partner is guilty of online abuse.

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1123869760578576389

Seems there is a lot going on behind the scenes with this.
His partner is an absolutely liability. Smith is quickly becoming a liability himself. I’m not really sure that much is going on behind the scenes though, this has been public knowledge for a long time. It’s one of those issues that comes under the political bubble that the wider electorate probably don’t know about or even care about.

[James310]

His partner is an absolutely liability. Smith is quickly becoming a liability himself. I’m not really sure that much is going on behind the scenes though, this has been public knowledge for a long time. It’s one of those issues that comes under the political bubble that the wider electorate probably don’t know about or even care about.

Nobody likes politicians that makes stuff up like Smith has, and then lectures people on online abuse while his partner is sitting next to him on his phone or laptop doing just that, especially being abusive to SNP MPs!

He is obviously behind the leak regarding the gender ID next steps as well. Nicola Sturgeon should be taking action against him, even if he cannot control his partner he should not be leaking government information to him.

[Moulin Yarns]

Credit where credit is due. A successful beginning, as the first aim has been achieved. A slow down in alcohol purchase, the longer term aim of reducing alcohol related deaths and hospital admissions will take longer to filter through.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48675313

[Moulin Yarns]

Well, I don't think anyone can argue with this. The evidence is out there.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48689834

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275

https://www.ft.com/content/251091a6-9a4f-11e8-ab77-f854c65a4465

[ronaldo7]

Credit where credit is due. A successful beginning, as the first aim has been achieved. A slow down in alcohol purchase, the longer term aim of reducing alcohol related deaths and hospital admissions will take longer to filter through.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48675313

A good start, and I was listening to the radio this morning, where, they were saying the figures are only for 8 months. Hopefully further improvement when we get the full picture.

Any indications how the whisky lobby are taking it?

[Moulin Yarns]

A good start, and I was listening to the radio this morning, where, they were saying the figures are only for 8 months. Hopefully further improvement when we get the full picture.

Any indications how the whisky lobby are taking it?

From what I understand, the health figures are a good bit behind the retail figures so it will be a year or more before the improvement will be known, but it is likely to be positive.

As far as the whisky association are concerned it was never going to impact on them.

[Moulin Yarns]

And then the Scottish Parliament voted today in support of the Conservatives motion to NOT make it more difficult for second home owners to change the use to short term let, or as it is known, Airbnb.

[James310]

And then the Scottish Parliament voted today in support of the Conservatives motion to NOT make it more difficult for second home owners to change the use to short term let, or as it is known, Airbnb.

Can't bring yourself to say it? Too painful? It was a 'SNP/Tory stitch up' as they teamed up to defeat the bill.

That's a Green MSPs words by the way, not mine.

[Fife-Hibee]

Can't bring yourself to say it? Too painful? It was a 'SNP/Tory stitch up' as they teamed up to defeat the bill.

That's a Green MSPs words by the way, not mine.

I'm quite happy for an SNP/Tory "stitch up" if it defeats an awful bill.

[marinello59]

Can't bring yourself to say it? Too painful? It was a 'SNP/Tory stitch up' as they teamed up to defeat the bill.

That's a Green MSPs words by the way, not mine.

I can’t see what warrants this petty wee dig at all.

[Moulin Yarns]

I can’t see what warrants this petty wee dig at all.

It's probably trolling. I would have thought it being on the snp nonsense thread would have made it obvious that they have to take some of the blame. As it is the planning bill is needed, but the defeat of the amendment makes it easier for second home owners to make them holiday homes, removing them from the housing market.

[Moulin Yarns]

And amazing how many men have developed a sudden concern for women's rights now that it's seen as a convenient way to attack trans rights.

Scottish Women's Aid and Rape Crisis Scotland both support the proposed reforms. I'm inclined to trust their expertise.

Unfortunately it looks like the minority of the transphobic bigots have won the day.

https://twitter.com/NotRightRuth/status/1141733049568288768?s=19

[James310]

Unfortunately it looks like the minority of the transphobic bigots have won the day.

https://twitter.com/NotRightRuth/status/1141733049568288768?s=19

Joanna Cherry disagrees. Do you class her as a bigot?

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1141759437687967745?s=19

[Hibrandenburg]

Joanna Cherry disagrees. Do you class her as a bigot?

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1141759437687967745?s=19

I think she's admitting the battle is lost but the war goes on.

[Moulin Yarns]

Joanna Cherry disagrees. Do you class her as a bigot?

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1141759437687967745?s=19

She is also aware of the needs of all people of different views and gender to be treated equally.


https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1141722556375998464?s=19

[James310]

She is also aware of the needs of all people of different views and gender to be treated equally.


https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1141722556375998464?s=19

Yes, so why say the delay was caused by bigots? Was it not caused because people like Joanna who had concerns.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes, so why say the delay was caused by bigots? Was it not caused because people like Joanna who had concerns.

People claiming this will lead to men walking into female toilets have totally misunderstood the legislation, having to repeat myself for your benefit is a waste of time though.

[500miles]

People claiming this will lead to men walking into female toilets have totally misunderstood the legislation, having to repeat myself for your benefit is a waste of time though.

I agree and disagree. I listened to Mhairi Black talk in parliament, and she clarified that women's spaces are protected under the equalities legislation.

However, I do think the revised GRA bill should make clear distinction between sex, which is binary and evidentiary, and gender, which is obviously more of a spectrum, and appears to be more belief based. I wonder if it would be better to protect gender ID in the same vein as religious or Political belief.

[Moulin Yarns]

This is so true and people should remember it.

https://twitter.com/CameronMcNeish/status/1141634926095343617?s=19

[marinello59]

It's probably trolling. I would have thought it being on the snp nonsense thread would have made it obvious that they have to take some of the blame. As it is the planning bill is needed, but the defeat of the amendment makes it easier for second home owners to make them holiday homes, removing them from the housing market.

I’m surprised there hasn’t been more discussion about this. SNP members joining forces with the Tories to put big business interests ahead of the genuine concerns of residents is pretty big.

[James310]

I’m surprised there hasn’t been more discussion about this. SNP members joining forces with the Tories to put big business interests ahead of the genuine concerns of residents is pretty big.

You have been posting here long enough to know that's never going to happen. Ignore, nothing to see. It's just an inconvenient truth.

Just ignore it for a few days and it will go away.

[The Modfather]

You have been posting here long enough to know that's never going to happen. Ignore, nothing to see. It's just an inconvenient truth.

Just ignore it for a few days and it will go away.

In the same spirit, you seem to have overlooked my questions to you on the Tory thread one page back...

[marinello59]

You have been posting here long enough to know that's never going to happen. Ignore, nothing to see. It's just an inconvenient truth.

Just ignore it for a few days and it will go away.

I think it’s just been missed by most people. If Moulin hadn’t initially posted it on here then I would probably have missed it as well.

[James310]

In the same spirit, you seem to have overlooked my questions to you on the Tory thread one page back...

Was that the mega 6 questions in one post? I said on another post the EU won't negotiate anymore. I hope we leave with the deal and we have the trade agreements negotiated as part of that.

I think Scotland will be worse off post Brexit, and I am not sure what Boris has said he will deliver for Scotland so I don't know if I have confidence in him or not. Probably not when I find out what it is. Been pretty consistent I don't like him.

Did I miss anything?

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it’s just been missed by most people. If Moulin hadn’t initially posted it on here then I would probably have missed it as well.

Being totally up front. My wife and I have been prudent, and looked at buying a flat in Edinburgh a couple of years ago, at the end of the day we decided not to go ahead because we had about 10 short breaks each year and felt it would restrict us.

We have holidays in hotels but still do self catering, but wouldn't use Airbnb

[The Modfather]

Was that the mega 6 questions in one post? I said on another post the EU won't negotiate anymore. I hope we leave with the deal and we have the trade agreements negotiated as part of that.

I think Scotland will be worse off post Brexit, and I am not sure what Boris has said he will deliver for Scotland so I don't know if I have confidence in him or not. Probably not when I find out what it is. Been pretty consistent I don't like him.

Did I miss anything?

You’re not adverse to asking lots of questions so didn’t think you would take issue with me asking you some 😀

No all good, and fair opinions. It’s just a little irk-some that the the amount of time and energy you put into posting about independence isn’t matched in the same degree as to some of the more pressing issues of day in Brexit and the Tory leadership contest. However you have made your position on Brexit clear so that’s fair enough.

[James310]

You’re not adverse to asking lots of questions so didn’t think you would take issue with me asking you some 😀

No all good, and fair opinions. It’s just a little irk-some that the the amount of time and energy you put into posting about independence isn’t matched in the same degree as to some of the more pressing issues of day in Brexit and the Tory leadership contest. However you have made your position on Brexit clear so that’s fair enough.

I think with Brexit in hindsight a lot of people will look back and wish they had done more. I never thought for one minute Leave would win, but if I could go back I would do more to contribute to the Remain campaign. Sure lots more would do the same. I read the SNP spent more on a local council by election than they did on Remain. (Had to get a dig in somewhere)

[RyeSloan]

I think it’s just been missed by most people. If Moulin hadn’t initially posted it on here then I would probably have missed it as well.

It’s all about who drives that narrative...

I mean if it had been the Tories linking up with Labour to stymie the SNP then I’m sure we would have had quite a few posts on here making sure everyone was aware. Just like there has been plenty over time about just how snidey Labour have been at local council level having the temerity to work with those nasty old Tories.

Yet here we see landmark legislation, that will effect many Scots significantly for years to come, getting passed through parliament only through the SNP enlisting the support of those self same nasty yoons and but hardly a blip on the post count...

It is indeed a funny old world.

[lord bunberry]

It’s all about who drives that narrative...

I mean if it had been the Tories linking up with Labour to stymie the SNP then I’m sure we would have had quite a few posts on here making sure everyone was aware. Just like there has been plenty over time about just how snidey Labour have been at local council level having the temerity to work with those nasty old Tories.

Yet here we see landmark legislation, that will effect many Scots significantly for years to come, getting passed through parliament only through the SNP enlisting the support of those self same nasty yoons and but hardly a blip on the post count...

It is indeed a funny old world.
There is certainly a blip on this independence supporting poster. I admit to not being in possession of all the facts, but on the face of it this seems utter madness. The whole concept of Airbnb is abhorrent in a city like Edinburgh. We are a major European city that requires our population to service the needs of being such a city, but we’re happy to allow people to buy and then rent flats out on a short term basis to groups of tourists. In the meantime locals can’t afford to buy a house because the prices are being artificially inflated by the short term let market. Edinburgh sadly is no longer for the people of the city.

[Ozyhibby]

I think with Brexit in hindsight a lot of people will look back and wish they had done more. I never thought for one minute Leave would win, but if I could go back I would do more to contribute to the Remain campaign. Sure lots more would do the same. I read the SNP spent more on a local council by election than they did on Remain. (Had to get a dig in somewhere)

The SNP appear to have spent wisely then because they achieved a 62% remain vote.


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[James310]

The SNP appear to have spent wisely then because they achieved a 62% remain vote.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One way of looking at it, other is turnout in Scotland was much worse than England and Wales. Only 56% turnout in Glasgow was poor.

Maybe a bit of a campaign would have helped. Might have done something to those who never voted and something to those 1M Scots that voted Leave.

[Callum_62]

One way of looking at it, other is turnout in Scotland was much worse than England and Wales. Only 56% turnout in Glasgow was poor.

Maybe a bit of a campaign would have helped. Might have done something to those who never voted and something to those 1M Scots that voted Leave.Interestigly if we somehow managed to change every leave voter to a remain voter, we would've voted overall to remain in the EU by only 600,000 votes


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[StevieC]

One way of looking at it, other is turnout in Scotland was much worse than England and Wales. Only 56% turnout in Glasgow was poor.

Maybe a bit of a campaign would have helped. Might have done something to those who never voted and something to those 1M Scots that voted Leave.

The outcome was always going to be decided by England, let’s not kid ourselves otherwise. Seems sensible to save campaigning funds for elections that matter, than waste it on a campaign that was going to be decided elsewhere regardless.

[James310]

The outcome was always going to be decided by England, let’s not kid ourselves otherwise. Seems sensible to save campaigning funds for elections that matter, than waste it on a campaign that was going to be decided elsewhere regardless.

You could say the same about campaigning in the more remote parts of Scotland, don't bother as everything will always be decided by the central belt.

If the leave vote dropped by 5% across the whole of the UK and the remain vote increased by 5%, which seems reasonable if there had been a better campaign across the whole of the UK by Remain, then Remain would have won.

[StevieC]

You could say the same about campaigning in the more remote parts of Scotland, don't bother as everything will always be decided by the central belt.

If the leave vote dropped by 5% across the whole of the UK and the remain vote increased by 5%, which seems reasonable if there had been a better campaign across the whole of the UK by Remain, then Remain would have won.

That is totally off the mark. Remote parts of Scotland still have the opportunity to help make a majority at Parliament level, Brexit has been dealt with entirely by a chosen few in London .. and not one elected member in Scotland has had any say on how things have panned out .. not even Ruth the mooth or any Scottish MPs.

You could state as many “what ifs” as you like, the truth is that the SNP spending more of their funds on an EU campaign wouldn’t have made a single bit of difference to the outcome.

As has been pointed out to you though .. the campaign they did run resulted in 62% of Scotland voting remain .. and this has been totally ignored by the London few.

[ronaldo7]

I see the Scottish government are continuing with the day job, and the introduction of the Scottish child payment to try and lift more kids out of poverty.

£10 extra a week. To be claimed by the end of 2022, with children under 6 able to claim by the end of this parliament.

It's not to be sniffed at, but more to do.

Estimation is 410,000 children eligible, at a cost of £180 million.

It just shows how feked up the Tories are making of it all, when we've got to top up payments for children.

They just don't care.

[weecounty hibby]

It was my daughters P7 leavers assembly this morning. All of the kids got a gift box. In it was a scientific calculator, memory stick, ruler, pens, pencils, sharpener, rubber, pencil case, note pads etc and a dictionary. Not from the school but from the Scottish government. Not sure when that came in or if it's something that happens elsewhere but I thought it was a fabulous thing to do and a good start to the step into secondary education.

[G B Young]

It was my daughters P7 leavers assembly this morning. All of the kids got a gift box. In it was a scientific calculator, memory stick, ruler, pens, pencils, sharpener, rubber, pencil case, note pads etc and a dictionary. Not from the school but from the Scottish government. Not sure when that came in or if it's something that happens elsewhere but I thought it was a fabulous thing to do and a good start to the step into secondary education.

It's part of the Scottish Attainment Challenge launched by the Scottish government a few years back and focuses on nine 'challenge authorities'.

Here's some background:

The £750 million Attainment Scotland Fund is a targeted initiative focused on supporting pupils in the local authorities of Scotland with the highest concentrations of deprivation.
The nine 'Challenge Authorities' are Glasgow, Dundee, Inverclyde, West Dunbartonshire, North Ayrshire, Clackmannanshire, North Lanarkshire, East Ayrshire and Renfrewshire. It initially focused on primary schools.
A number of primary schools outwith the Challenge Authorities, with significant proportions of their pupils living in deprived areas are also benefiting.

[weecounty hibby]

It's part of the Scottish Attainment Challenge launched by the Scottish government a few years back and focuses on nine 'challenge authorities'.

Here's some background:

The £750 million Attainment Scotland Fund is a targeted initiative focused on supporting pupils in the local authorities of Scotland with the highest concentrations of deprivation.
The nine 'Challenge Authorities' are Glasgow, Dundee, Inverclyde, West Dunbartonshire, North Ayrshire, Clackmannanshire, North Lanarkshire, East Ayrshire and Renfrewshire. It initially focused on primary schools.
A number of primary schools outwith the Challenge Authorities, with significant proportions of their pupils living in deprived areas are also benefiting.
Thanks for that. Loads more that can be done in education but wee things like that can help make a difference

[Mibbes Aye]

Thanks for that. Loads more that can be done in education but wee things like that can help make a difference

Couldn't agree more.

Little things at the right ages can tip the balance and make huge differences in the life chances of children and young people.

[marinello59]

It was my daughters P7 leavers assembly this morning. All of the kids got a gift box. In it was a scientific calculator, memory stick, ruler, pens, pencils, sharpener, rubber, pencil case, note pads etc and a dictionary. Not from the school but from the Scottish government. Not sure when that came in or if it's something that happens elsewhere but I thought it was a fabulous thing to do and a good start to the step into secondary education.

It’s a pity they can’t do more to recruit and retain teachers in core subjects in secondary school. In order to do Higher Maths my son had to spend a fair chunk of his day getting bussed to another school. He seemed to have a different English teacher every month who all wanted to start again and do things their way.
Sturgeon’s SNP have a poor record when it comes to education, a pencil case stuffed with goodies doesn’t cover that up.

Edit. It is a nice gesture though, my laddy would have been delighted with that.

[lord bunberry]

It’s a pity they can’t do more to recruit and retain teachers in core subjects in secondary school. In order to do Higher Maths my son had to spend a fair chunk of his day getting bussed to another school. He seemed to have a different English teacher every month who all wanted to start again and do things their way.
Sturgeon’s SNP have a poor record when it comes to education, a pencil case stuffed with goodies doesn’t cover that up.

Edit. It is a nice gesture though, my laddy would have been delighted with that.
They definitely need to do more, but teacher recruitment and retention goes deeper than government policy on education.

[Fife-Hibee]

It’s a pity they can’t do more to recruit and retain teachers in core subjects in secondary school. In order to do Higher Maths my son had to spend a fair chunk of his day getting bussed to another school. He seemed to have a different English teacher every month who all wanted to start again and do things their way.
Sturgeon’s SNP have a poor record when it comes to education, a pencil case stuffed with goodies doesn’t cover that up.

Edit. It is a nice gesture though, my laddy would have been delighted with that.

There's been a poor record under the SNP. But considering the political landscape of the UK over the years, would the record have really been any better under anybody else? We see the shambles the tories have made to public education in England, but even that pales in comparison to the damage Labour have done in Wales.

Public education is failing right across this land. It is however, failing more slowly in Scotland. Same with the NHS and other public services. We can either blame the SNP for the gradual decline. Or we can be thankful that the decline has been more gradual than everywhere else in the UK.

[jonty]

It’s a pity they can’t do more to recruit and retain teachers in core subjects in secondary school. In order to do Higher Maths my son had to spend a fair chunk of his day getting bussed to another school. He seemed to have a different English teacher every month who all wanted to start again and do things their way.
Sturgeon’s SNP have a poor record when it comes to education, a pencil case stuffed with goodies doesn’t cover that up.

Edit. It is a nice gesture though, my laddy would have been delighted with that.

Having worked in education (not as an academic) for 20 years, i have little sympathy for teachers.
Those that try to make a difference are far outnumbered by those that couldn't give a **** and think theyre entitled to 8%+ payrise each year with months each year in holidays.
Its no different ratio to the private sector where some employees go above and beyond, and the others are just there for what they can get.
Most school management couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper poke.
Don't get me wrong - its an acquired skill to be a good teacher and understand your audience. Not many can go from managing dozens of kids, to managing dozens of adults (who sometimes behave like spoilt kids).
I've witnessed first hand, a head of department berate school janitors because the school bell was 20 seconds late, and he didn't make his bus (literally at the gate of the school).
And for the one shouting, there were plenty others skulking in the wings, eager to leave the school grounds.
Some teachers go above and beyond (typically the younger eager staff). for some its a jobs (been there, done that). The remainder (been doing at 5 years+, novelty has worn off) just want the pension, payrise and holidays.
Like the private sector its difficult to keep the good ones.
getting back to the post - wouldn't it be better getting the package on day 1 at high school, and something from primary to celebrate the summer?
a book or gift voucher for a bookstore, a free ice-cream (or multipack of!), an audio book of some appropriate literature. A raspberry Pi.

[GlesgaeHibby]

They definitely need to do more, but teacher recruitment and retention goes deeper than government policy on education.

I spoke with a friend who is a secondary curricular leader (STEM subjects) after the pay deal was announced. He said the extra money would be nice, and would help paper over cracks for a short period of time, but he'd happily have not taken a payrise if it meant that working conditions were improved. Seems like things are in a bit of a vicious cycle at the minute. Poor discipline, extra admin work is stressing teachers. A number are leaving or going off on long term sick. This then makes it worse for those that are left to deal with it, and will drive more out. I've never seen my friend looking as drained and demotivated as he is just now. It's sad really, as he is one of many good teachers who will be in a similar boat, and this is the future of our children and country we are talking about here.

[marinello59]

They definitely need to do more, but teacher recruitment and retention goes deeper than government policy on education.

I'd agree, it is more complex than just blaming the Government.

[marinello59]

Having worked in education (not as an academic) for 20 years, i have little sympathy for teachers.
Those that try to make a difference are far outnumbered by those that couldn't give a **** and think theyre entitled to 8%+ payrise each year with months each year in holidays.
Its no different ratio to the private sector where some employees go above and beyond, and the others are just there for what they can get.
Most school management couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper poke.
Don't get me wrong - its an acquired skill to be a good teacher and understand your audience. Not many can go from managing dozens of kids, to managing dozens of adults (who sometimes behave like spoilt kids).
I've witnessed first hand, a head of department berate school janitors because the school bell was 20 seconds late, and he didn't make his bus (literally at the gate of the school).
And for the one shouting, there were plenty others skulking in the wings, eager to leave the school grounds.
Some teachers go above and beyond (typically the younger eager staff). for some its a jobs (been there, done that). The remainder (been doing at 5 years+, novelty has worn off) just want the pension, payrise and holidays.
Like the private sector its difficult to keep the good ones.
getting back to the post - wouldn't it be better getting the package on day 1 at high school, and something from primary to celebrate the summer?
a book or gift voucher for a bookstore, a free ice-cream (or multipack of!), an audio book of some appropriate literature. A raspberry Pi.

Surely you could group employees of any industry like that regarding enthusiasm for their job? :greengrin
Do you think School management is failing because of the people or the system they have to work under or a combination of both?

[jonty]

Surely you could group employees of any industry like that regarding enthusiasm for their job? :greengrin
Do you think School management is failing because of the people or the system they have to work under or a combination of both?

You could indeed :greengrin But rarely do employees strike and get such large payrises and generous benefits. :greengrin
Schools fails not due to the enthusiasm of the front line workers, but the strange assumption that those excellent teachers make good managers. I've met some heads who couldn't manage to tie their laces and almost a tory-esque higher-than-thou attitude :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

You could indeed :greengrin But rarely do employees strike and get such large payrises and generous benefits. :greengrin
Schools fails not due to the enthusiasm of the front line workers, but the strange assumption that those excellent teachers make good managers. I've met some heads who couldn't manage to tie their laces and almost a tory-esque higher-than-thou attitude :greengrin

My wife used to be a teacher, the headmaster at the school she taught at spent his summer holiday at Bellsdyke hospital.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellsdyke_Hospital

[JeMeSouviens]

You could indeed :greengrin But rarely do employees strike and get such large payrises and generous benefits. :greengrin
Schools fails not due to the enthusiasm of the front line workers, but the strange assumption that those excellent teachers make good managers. I've met some heads who couldn't manage to tie their laces and almost a tory-esque higher-than-thou attitude :greengrin

Not just teaching that does that. UK tech companies I've worked for have done that too. Take the best engineers and "promote" them to be managers so that their engineering skills are wasted and their (lack of) managerial skills can be enjoyed by all. :rolleyes: Is it a British thing or do other countries do it too? I'm lucky to have spent most of my working life in more enlightened environments where there are parallel technical and managerial career paths.

[marinello59]

You could indeed :greengrin But rarely do employees strike and get such large payrises and generous benefits. :greengrin
Schools fails not due to the enthusiasm of the front line workers, but the strange assumption that those excellent teachers make good managers. I've met some heads who couldn't manage to tie their laces and almost a tory-esque higher-than-thou attitude :greengrin

I've wondered about that as well. I was surprised just how many teachers at my sons primary school also held managerial roles. The same at his secondary school. Although the headmaster who was there initially was a natural leader who enthused staff, pupils and parents alike. His successor.....not so good.
Perhaps that's an area that can be looked at and improved on.

[jonty]

Its not just the managerial roles either. its the skillsets. They just don't work. maths/finance. technical/facilities. computing/IT.
Even sports/coaching doesn't work.
Its all managements fault. and for wasting money/budgets. there. :greengrin.
Now back on track......

[ronaldo7]

Nice to see the SNP getting the ladies of Glasgow council their just rewards, and the payment for decades of Labour dithering and downright obstructiveness towards their employees. They even took some of them to court to stop them getting what they deserved. The champagne socialists including McAveety, should be brought to book, and never show his puss in the city again.

The SNP run council vowed to get this done, and the first payments are being made. Some payments will be into the £30-40k

Well done to Susan Aitken and her team.:aok:

[Moulin Yarns]

I see that this has snuck under the radar


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48966815

[James310]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4510713/snp-minister-facebook-hatred-jews-holocaust-denied/amp

Bad enough this SNP Minister was a member of the Group, but I don't believe for one minute she was added to a Facebook Group without her knowledge. You get notifications and would have to have accepted the invitation.

So what she is saying someone hacked her Facebook account and at the same time added her to the Group, accepted the invitation and changed her settings to never see any notifications for this one group. That's all they did, nothing else but do all that. She also managed to make a comment on a group post without realising she was a member of the group.

Sure, that's all really believable.

[lord bunberry]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4510713/snp-minister-facebook-hatred-jews-holocaust-denied/amp

Bad enough this SNP Minister was a member of the Group, but I don't believe for one minute she was added to a Facebook Group without her knowledge. You get notifications and would have to have accepted the invitation.

So what she is saying someone hacked her Facebook account and at the same time added her to the Group, accepted the invitation and changed her settings to never see any notifications for this one group. That's all they did, nothing else but do all that. She also managed to make a comment on a group post without realising.

Sure, that's really believable.
Mate no one cares. There’s not one politician in the country stupid enough to knowingly join a group with views like that, even if they believed in what they were saying. The petty point scoring from both sides is tiresome and it turns people away from politics. This is a nothing story, if there was something in it she would be suspended immediately. I don’t do Facebook anymore, but there’s lots of groups that appear to be one thing, but when you start to notice a few posts, you realise it’s not what you thought.

[James310]

Mate no one cares. There’s not one politician in the country stupid enough to knowingly join a group with views like that, even if they believed in what they were saying. The petty point scoring from both sides is tiresome and it turns people away from politics. This is a nothing story, if there was something in it she would be suspended immediately. I don’t do Facebook anymore, but there’s lots of groups that appear to be one thing, but when you start to notice a few posts, you realise it’s not what you thought.

That's fine you don't care. Did you post on the Tories are lying ******s thread that you don't care? No, you contribute to that but I guess that's fine cause it's not against your party.

If you read my post it's not the nature of the group, which is questionable itself, it's the obvious lying.

Bit hypocritical maybe saying you don't care about lying SNP politicians but happily will contribute to threads about lying Tory politicians.

[Future17]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4510713/snp-minister-facebook-hatred-jews-holocaust-denied/amp

Bad enough this SNP Minister was a member of the Group, but I don't believe for one minute she was added to a Facebook Group without her knowledge. You get notifications and would have to have accepted the invitation.

So what she is saying someone hacked her Facebook account and at the same time added her to the Group, accepted the invitation and changed her settings to never see any notifications for this one group. That's all they did, nothing else but do all that. She also managed to make a comment on a group post without realising she was a member of the group.

Sure, that's all really believable.

If your position is that people should not subscribe to online content which is disreputable, I'd suggest not posting links to The Sun.

[lord bunberry]

That's fine you don't care. Did you post on the Tories are lying ******s thread that you don't care? No, you contribute to that but I guess that's fine cause it's not against your party.

If you read my post it's not the nature of the group, which is questionable itself, it's the obvious lying.

Bit hypocritical maybe saying you don't care about lying SNP politicians but happily will contribute to threads about lying Tory politicians.
It’s not obvious lying though is it. Someone can add you to a Facebook group. As a politician she will have hundreds of notifications each day and it’s entirely plausible that she just deletes most of them without even reading them. Her comment on the page was concerning Syrian refugees, that she admits making. When I was on Facebook I was in that group and I didn’t notice any of the stuff that the sun is reporting, admittedly I did leave Facebook a few years ago. As far as I was concerned it was a group that challenged the bbc on biased reporting after the independence referendum.
You’re calling her a liar without any evidence to prove it, even the sun isn’t making the suggestion that she’s a liar.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4510713/snp-minister-facebook-hatred-jews-holocaust-denied/amp

Bad enough this SNP Minister was a member of the Group, but I don't believe for one minute she was added to a Facebook Group without her knowledge. You get notifications and would have to have accepted the invitation.

So what she is saying someone hacked her Facebook account and at the same time added her to the Group, accepted the invitation and changed her settings to never see any notifications for this one group. That's all they did, nothing else but do all that. She also managed to make a comment on a group post without realising she was a member of the group.

Sure, that's all really believable.

I suppose it's a bit different to actually following people like, Scotland in union, history woman, and Brian spanner, on a twitter account.

Nothing like a bit of hypocrisy.

[James310]

I suppose it's a bit different to actually following people like, Scotland in union, history woman, and Brian spanner, on a twitter account.

Nothing like a bit of hypocrisy.

I am not an elected official.

I think you have crossed a line tracking down my personal Twitter account, that is getting personal as it has family stuff on it.

There is banter on this site and while it gets heated I would never dream of trying to locate you or find out more about you, that's a bit worrying.

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve. If this is where you want to go I am out, I will ignore you and would appreciate if you ignore me from now on.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am not an elected official.

I think you have crossed a line tracking down my personal Twitter account, that is getting personal as it has family stuff on it.

There is banter on this site and while it gets heated I would never dream of trying to locate you or find out more about you, that's a bit worrying.

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve. If this is where you want to go I am out, I will ignore you and would appreciate if you ignore me from now on.

Are you really suggesting that you are being stalked?

Considering some of the guff you have come out with recently, have you come to the same conclusion as everyone that the post of First Minister differs from that of Prime Minister in that it is an elected post? No, thought not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHiGbolFFGw

[ronaldo7]

I am not an elected official.

I think you have crossed a line tracking down my personal Twitter account, that is getting personal as it has family stuff on it.

There is banter on this site and while it gets heated I would never dream of trying to locate you or find out more about you, that's a bit worrying.

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve. If this is where you want to go I am out, I will ignore you and would appreciate if you ignore me from now on.

I'm not tracking you down, you're on the same twitter feed as me.

Just highlighting the hypocrisy in your argument. I'll leave you to history woman, and Brian spanner.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not tracking you down, you're on the same twitter feed as me.

Just highlighting the hypocrisy in your argument. I'll leave you to history woman, and Brian spanner.

This history woman?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJG8SsBWwAAplKM.jpg

That's unfortunate, doesn't he get notifications? :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

It’s not obvious lying though is it. Someone can add you to a Facebook group. As a politician she will have hundreds of notifications each day and it’s entirely plausible that she just deletes most of them without even reading them. Her comment on the page was concerning Syrian refugees, that she admits making. When I was on Facebook I was in that group and I didn’t notice any of the stuff that the sun is reporting, admittedly I did leave Facebook a few years ago. As far as I was concerned it was a group that challenged the bbc on biased reporting after the independence referendum.
You’re calling her a liar without any evidence to prove it, even the sun isn’t making the suggestion that she’s a liar.

Or none. I have all fb notifications switched off and am a member of several groups, some of which I haven't looked at for years, eg. SPFL BANTER WITHOUT FANS OF THE OLD FIRM, which could have all manner of offensive ***** in it.

[James310]

I am not an elected official or government minister.

There is a big difference between following a holocaust denier and someone who calls someone else a slut, anyway I thought politicians had thick skins, that what you told me.

I realise I am the target of the bully boys at the moment but it's a shame that banter had to cross into something else a bit more sinister.

[JeMeSouviens]

I am not an elected official or government minister.

There is a big difference between following a holocaust denier and someone who calls someone else a slut, anyway I thought politicians had thick skins, that what you told me.

I realise I am the target of the bully boys at the moment but it's a shame that banter had to cross into something else a bit more sinister.

So you say, Alister. :wink:

[James310]

So you say, Alister. :wink:

That's fine, that's banter. I can take that.

Tracking me down on another social media platform and identifying me from that is crossing a line, and all to score some points on here. Some may disagree but it's odd behaviour.

I will leave it at that. Will not get drawn into a is it or isn't it debate. It is.

[CloudSquall]

I think what's happened is she has joined the group when I presume it was mostly pointed towards bias in the BBC against independence and then as you get on some of these groups some bampots arrive and post some extreme posts that the majority don't agree with.

There's no need for the mock outrage from the Conservatives or the "she was added without her knowledge" from the SNP.

[Jack]

That's fine, that's banter. I can take that.

Tracking me down on another social media platform and identifying me from that is crossing a line, and all to score some points on here. Some may disagree but it's odd behaviour.

I will leave it at that. Will not get drawn into a is it or isn't it debate. It is.

It's not called the web for nothing!

[Ozyhibby]

I am not an elected official or government minister.

There is a big difference between following a holocaust denier and someone who calls someone else a slut, anyway I thought politicians had thick skins, that what you told me.

I realise I am the target of the bully boys at the moment but it's a shame that banter had to cross into something else a bit more sinister.

So she just needs to develop a thicker skin and it’s open season?


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[James310]

So she just needs to develop a thicker skin and it’s open season?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ask Moulin, he said it in reference to abuse Jo Swinston was getting on the other thread.

[ronaldo7]

That's fine, that's banter. I can take that.

Tracking me down on another social media platform and identifying me from that is crossing a line, and all to score some points on here. Some may disagree but it's odd behaviour.

I will leave it at that. Will not get drawn into a is it or isn't it debate. It is.

I've said to you before. No tracking down of you're Twitter feed was needed. It's bantz. You're out there, loud and proud, so to speak, just like lots of other posters on here.

Getting your story straight on both platforms might be a bit difficult for you though. 😃

Don't take it personally. After all, we're all fair game, right?

[ronaldo7]

This history woman?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJG8SsBWwAAplKM.jpg

That's unfortunate, doesn't he get notifications? :wink:

She sends out lots of notifications. 😆.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ask Moulin, he said it in reference to abuse Jo Swinston was getting on the other thread.

Misquoted.

I said


"she is a politician, and therefore has a skin of leather"


As a politician. All politicians need skins of leather to deflect the criticism. Maybe if you were an elected representative you would have too.
😁

[danhibees1875]

I think what's happened is she has joined the group when I presume it was mostly pointed towards bias in the BBC against independence and then as you get on some of these groups some bampots arrive and post some extreme posts that the majority don't agree with.

There's no need for the mock outrage from the Conservatives or the "she was added without her knowledge" from the SNP.

That was the conclusion I came to aswell. :agree:

The page was called "British bias corporation" - it's clearly just a page for angry people to vent about the BBC, at least initially anyway. I don't know the context of her interactions with it, but it appears to be arguing against some anti-refugee comments.

I'm not sure if it's clear if the anti-jewish content was just comments rather than the actual content posted by the page either which is near impossible for the group to moderate.

[Fife-Hibee]

That was the conclusion I came to aswell. :agree:

The page was called "British bias corporation" - it's clearly just a page for angry people to vent about the BBC, at least initially anyway. I don't know the context of her interactions with it, but it appears to be arguing against some anti-refugee comments.

I'm not sure if it's clear if the anti-jewish content was just comments rather than the actual content posted by the page either which is near impossible for the group to moderate.

Is it REALLY "anti-jewish" content though?

[lord bunberry]

Or none. I have all fb notifications switched off and am a member of several groups, some of which I haven't looked at for years, eg. SPFL BANTER WITHOUT FANS OF THE OLD FIRM, which could have all manner of offensive ***** in it.
Exactly. People will try and spin this to be a big story and it just isn’t.

[marinello59]

Is it REALLY "anti-jewish" content though?

Probably not you given you have ‘proved’ that anti-semitism doesn’t exist and sexism is just woman whinging. Could you sort out racism next? :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

Probably not you given you have ‘proved’ that anti-semitism doesn’t exist and sexism is just woman whinging. Could you sort out racism next? :greengrin

It would be helpful to see the content for us all to make our own assessment on it.

I just shared a post on facebook pointing out how many Palestinian children have been murdered at the hands of Israel in the past 15 years. Am I "anti-semitic" for doing so in your view?

[Ozyhibby]

It would be helpful to see the content for us all to make our own assessment on it.

I just shared a post on facebook pointing out how many Palestinian children have been murdered at the hands of Israel in the past 15 years. Am I "anti-semitic" for doing so in your view?

Absolutely not. Criticism of Israel is fair game, however there are plenty of activist out there who get themselves into bother by referring to them as the Jews or using Jewish imagery. And as soon as you start on Jewish bankers you are definitely into anti-semitism.


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[marinello59]

It would be helpful to see the content for us all to make our own assessment on it.

I just shared a post on facebook pointing out how many Palestinian children have been murdered at the hands of Israel in the past 15 years. Am I "anti-semitic" for doing so in your view?

No.

[Fife-Hibee]

Absolutely not. Criticism of Israel is fair game, however there are plenty of activist out there who get themselves into bother by referring to them as the Jews or using Jewish imagery. And as soon as you start on Jewish bankers you are definitely into anti-semitism.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are Jewish bankers immune to criticism? It's ok to criticize bankers as long as they're not Jewish? :dunno:

[speedy_gonzales]

Are Jewish bankers immune to criticism? It's ok to criticize bankers as long as they're not Jewish? :dunno:

Pretty much, bankers are fair game for criticism if they've done something that people are critical of.
However, the minute you use an adjective that is a protected characteristic of the Equality Act, then you're crossing the line. You can't say Jewish/black/disabled banker. If you absolutely have to, you could probably say "the banker, who happens to be Jewish,,,,"

[Mibbes Aye]

Are Jewish bankers immune to criticism? It's ok to criticize bankers as long as they're not Jewish? :dunno:

Why would you need to reference them as Jewish when criticising them? The only reason would be if you were implying or associating some sort of stereotype linked to them being Jewish.

[McD]

Are Jewish bankers immune to criticism? It's ok to criticize bankers as long as they're not Jewish? :dunno:


Its fine to criticise any and all bankers (if deserving of such criticism), there’s no need to mention they’re Jewish, it’s irrelevant to the banking criticism. Unless there is a discriminatory undertone around being Jewish, in which case whether they’re bankers or not is irrelevant, and it’s probably racism.

[Fife-Hibee]

Its fine to criticise any and all bankers (if deserving of such criticism), there’s no need to mention they’re Jewish, it’s irrelevant to the banking criticism. Unless there is a discriminatory undertone around being Jewish, in which case whether they’re bankers or not is irrelevant, and it’s probably racism.

But by calling them bankers. Couldn't you call that a "discriminatory undertone around being a banker"?

Where do you draw the line between where it's acceptable to discriminate and where it isn't?

[McD]

But by calling them bankers. Couldn't you call that a "discriminatory undertone around being a banker"?

Where do you draw the line between where it's acceptable to discriminate and where it isn't?


No, you couldn’t. Because that would be in reference to their job, and their performance of said job. Just like referring to someone as a window cleaner, a footballer, a shop assistant, a janitor, a CEO, and so on. That isn’t discrimination.

It is discrimination to refer to someone’s religion, race, colour, gender, sexual orientation and so on, in regards to that job performance. If someone is a corrupt banker or poor footballer or lazy janitor, it’s not got anything to do with being Jewish, or catholic, or gay, or black, or Mexican, or anything else, except their job performance.

[Future17]

But by calling them bankers. Couldn't you call that a "discriminatory undertone around being a banker"?

Where do you draw the line between where it's acceptable to discriminate and where it isn't?

It's interesting we're going down this route again given that we established on another thread that you don't know what discrimination means. As regularly happens, you were called out on this and disappeared from the topic without acknowledging you were wrong. I fully expect you to do the same thing here.

In reply to your post, having a negative opinion of all bankers based on knowledge of one or some bankers would be discriminatory. However, as speedy has referred to above, when the characteristic you are basing your discrimination on is protected, that's when a line is crossed as far as the law is concerned.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's interesting we're going down this route again given that we established on another thread that you don't know what discrimination means. As regularly happens, you were called out on this and disappeared from the topic without acknowledging you were wrong. I fully expect you to do the same thing here.

In reply to your post, having a negative opinion of all bankers based on knowledge of one or some bankers would be discriminatory. However, as speedy has referred to above, when the characteristic you are basing your discrimination on is protected, that's when a line is crossed as far as the law is concerned.

Perhaps I know exactly what discimination means and don't feel the need to tweek it's definition to suit any particular situation. But i'm not going to waste time discussing this with someone who is adamant that lying and blackmail share the same definition.

[Hibbyradge]

:faf:

Absolutely love it.

[Future17]

Perhaps I know exactly what discimination means and don't feel the need to tweek it's definition to suit any particular situation.

The dictionary definition of "discrimination", in the context under discussion, is "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex".

Our previous exchange on the subject came in the context of you having said a person cannot disagree with another person without also discriminating against them, which is contradictory and untrue; it's not subjective or a matter of opinion, it's simply untrue.

I (and other posters) called you out on this and you disappeared from the thread, refusing to acknowledge that you were wrong. I now see from your latest posts that you don't appear to concede you were wrong. With that in mind, are you able/willing to give me your definition of discrimination please?


But i'm not going to waste time discussing this with someone who is adamant that lying and blackmail share the same definition.

It's hard to know where to begin with this but, given that I feel we have an obligation to call out misinformation when it's posted online, I'll have a go.

I presume you're referring to our discussion about the Scouts on the Tory thread, in which case we were talking about lying, dishonesty and bribery - blackmail wasn't mentioned and is something different.

Your initial position was that it's possible to give "an honest bribe", which it isn't, as a bribe is, by definition, dishonest. Again, that's not subjective or a matter of opinion, it's factual.

You then stated lying and dishonesty were the same thing and I posted that:


They clearly are not the same thing; whilst lying is dishonest, dishonesty does not require a person to lie. For example, stealing is dishonest, but you are not require to lie in order to steal.

As I've posted a couple of times now, everyone is entitled to an opinion on subjective matters, but my concern is that you don't have a proper understanding of the language you use.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

^^^^^
Why are you having a go at yourself? 😉

[WeeRussell]

Fife. For all I think you make some good points, and I fairly often agree with your general point of view - I cannot believe your failure to understand what "discriminate" means has spanned over so many threads and pages and is still ongoing today :greengrin

[Future17]

^^^^^
Why are you having a go at yourself? 😉

I wondered how to set it out, but there's only so many time you can hit "Preview Post". :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

SNP and John Swinney will be getting pelters for this 😉


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49290421

[JeMeSouviens]

SNP and John Swinney will be getting pelters for this 😉


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49290421

What a blow for Sturgeon. :no way:

[Fife-Hibee]

It's a shame that school children have been distracted by all this nonsense that's going on. Just wait till the results are released from other parts of the UK which will show a similar trend.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/aug/15/drug-poisoning-deaths-in-england-and-wales-at-highest-level-ever-recorded?CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Another SNP Fail.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Another fail from the SNP

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-49336998

[Fife-Hibee]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/20/snp-accused-exaggerating-north-sea-oil-reserves

[Hibrandenburg]

It's a shame that school children have been distracted by all this nonsense that's going on. Just wait till the results are released from other parts of the UK which will show a similar trend.

England showing exactly the same result, also their worst showing since 2007. What a blow for the union.

[RyeSloan]

I see Audit Scotland has confirmed a figure of £13m down the swanny today re the Bi-Fab loan for equity deal...and a flat refusal from the SG to clarify to them the total cost so far.

Which is not quite the £40m (and counting) lost on Prestwick to date it’s still a tidy sum to lose while achieving the square root of f all so far.

No indication yet of what the decision will be re the Ferguson ship yard but also no indication that the outcome will be any different...

[James310]

I see Audit Scotland has confirmed a figure of £13m down the swanny today re the Bi-Fab loan for equity deal...and a flat refusal from the SG to clarify to them the total cost so far.

Which is not quite the £40m (and counting) lost on Prestwick to date it’s still a tidy sum to lose while achieving the square root of f all so far.

No indication yet of what the decision will be re the Ferguson ship yard but also no indication that the outcome will be any different...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49370082

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49370082

As ferguson is now state owned, and caledonian macbrayne is already state owned does that mean that they owe the money to themselves 🤑

[Ozyhibby]

I see Audit Scotland has confirmed a figure of £13m down the swanny today re the Bi-Fab loan for equity deal...and a flat refusal from the SG to clarify to them the total cost so far.

Which is not quite the £40m (and counting) lost on Prestwick to date it’s still a tidy sum to lose while achieving the square root of f all so far.

No indication yet of what the decision will be re the Ferguson ship yard but also no indication that the outcome will be any different...

Yip, these are crazy decisions. Theses are loss making business’s that have very little prospect of being turned around and now have no chance of being closed.
What is the SG’s out strategy with these business’s?


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[Moulin Yarns]

Yip, these are crazy decisions. Theses are loss making business’s that have very little prospect of being turned around and now have no chance of being closed.
What is the SG’s out strategy with these business’s?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Same with Prestwick, £1.00 ONO

[Just Alf]

This seems a nightmare, I'm guessing the Scottish government are taking over the yard to ensure the ferries are built? (finally) preventing a even bigger losses?

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[Ozyhibby]

This seems a nightmare, I'm guessing the Scottish government are taking over the yard to ensure the ferries are built? (finally) preventing a even bigger losses?

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If that’s the case then they need to say so and make it clear if a buyer is not bought by then that the yard will close.


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[Fife-Hibee]

If that’s the case then they need to say so and make it clear if a buyer is not bought by then that the yard will close.


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There may well be reasons why they can't go public with the plans at the moment. We'll just need to wait and see what they do.

[Just Alf]

If that’s the case then they need to say so and make it clear if a buyer is not bought by then that the yard will close.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkFair point, might just be me but reading the various news reports, the key element everytime seems to be completion of the ferries in the 1st instance and then hopefully securing jobs in the longer term.

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[GORDONSMITH7]

I welcome this. However can someone of SNP persuasion explain why this can happen when a public bid for the last Scotrail franchise could not. The irony of course for all to see is that the company who won the several year franchise, was as a Nationalised Dutch Company. No malice. I would Nationalise the whole UK network, without compensation. The parasite beaurocrats and flunkies who made millions in so called Privatisation should get **** all. Taking grandkids to game tomorrow. Big win by the Hibernians.

BIG G

[GORDONSMITH7]

If that’s the case then they need to say so and make it clear if a buyer is not bought by then that the yard will close.


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Deary me only yesterday you were saying (bizarrely that railways have never run better under private ownership, whist defying gravitational facts as Tories do that the railways in the UK are not in private hands but mainly Nationalised State owned companies) The problem that may have passed you by is that they are not UK State run, but as follows, do not let facts get in the way......

Trains on UK railways now almost entirely state-owned – by foreign countries

Extensive state-ownership exists among UK rail operators, it just doesn't involve the British state
With rail fares set to rise again by as much as 2.8 per cent, the debate over whether the UK should renationalise the railways – which Labour made a 2017 manifesto pledge – has already reared its head.

This week the Trades Union Congress renewed its call for renationalisation, saying doing so would lead to lower ticket prices.


“We’re already paying the highest ticket prices in Europe to travel on overcrowded and understaffed trains,” the organisation’s general secretary Frances O’Grady said, adding that passengers shouldn’t be “subsidising private train companies”.


A significant proportion of the UK’s railways already are under state control, with Network Rail in charge of around 75 per cent of the industry, including the tracks, thousands of stations and signalling operations.

But what of the train operators? There are over 20 operators of franchised passenger services, and discussions about renationalising the railways generally concern returning control of these services to the state.

Belmond Andean Explorer
Coast Starlight
TranzAlpine
Rovos Rail
But interestingly, almost all of these operators are (at least partly) state-owned already – only not by the British state.


As The Independent’s Europe correspondent (and transport aficionado) Jon Stone noted in a tweet on Wednesday, as Virgin Trains is soon reaching the end of the line, there are now few purely private operators left on UK railways.

It is worth noting that several operators have the same parent companies behind them.

Huge companies like Arriva UK Trains, Abellio and Govia run several operators.

For example, Govia runs Thameslink, Southern, Great Northern and Gatwick Express. The firm is a joint venture between Go-Ahead group and French company Keolis, which itself is 70 per cent owned by the French National Railways Corporation.

An Intercity 125 built by British Rail and used on routes including the Midlands and Great Western main lines (Creative Commons)

Meanwhile Arriva UK Trains is behind the operators, Chiltern, CrossCountry, London Overground, Grand Central, and Northern. In total it runs around a quarter of all British train operating companies, and is part of German firm Deutsche Bahn, in which the German state is the biggest shareholder.

Abellio is wholly owned by the Dutch national railways company Nederlandse Spoorwegen.

Private firm Virgin will no longer run the West Coast Mainline from December this year and the service will be run by a group consisting of the Italian state railway Trenitalia and private UK company First Group.

Here’s the full list:

c2c: Italian state

Chiltern: German state

Caledonian sleeper: PRIVATE

CrossCountry: German state

East Midlands: Dutch state

Eurostar: French state

Gatwick Express: French state

Grand Central: German state

Great Northern: French state

GWR: PRIVATE

Greater Anglia: Dutch state

Heathrow Express: PRIVATE

Hull Trains: PRIVATE

LNER: British state

London Northwestern Railway: Dutch state

London Overground: German state

London Underground: British state

Merseyrail: Dutch state

Northern: German state

Northern Ireland Railways: British state

Scotrail: Dutch state

South Western Railway: Hong Kong state

Southeastern: French state

Southern: French state

Stansted Express: Dutch state

TfL rail: Hong Kong state

Thameslink: French state

TransPennine Express: PRIVATE

Transport for Wales: French state

West Coast: Italian state

West Midlands Railway: Dutch state

With rail prices expected to rise, and large amounts of planned disruptive infrastructure upgrade work also costing the taxpayer billions, it is unlikely the calls for UK state ownership of rail companies are going to die down soon.

BIG G

[Moulin Yarns]

You have to wonder, why can't every country be as forward looking as Scotland.


We're thrilled to announce that Scotland is set to become the first country in the UK where every cancer patient will be guaranteed a dedicated support worker. Our #TransformingCancerCare programme, in partnership with @ScotGov, will invest a massive £18million to achieve this.

[Mibbes Aye]

You have to wonder, why can't every country be as forward looking as Scotland.


We're thrilled to announce that Scotland is set to become the first country in the UK where every cancer patient will be guaranteed a dedicated support worker. Our #TransformingCancerCare programme, in partnership with @ScotGov, will invest a massive £18million to achieve this.

Sounds good, doesn’t it?

Two things though.

£18 million isn’t enough to employ enough support workers to deal with new diagnoses, let alone existing ones.

And a few years back, we had the promise of a year’s post-diagnostic support for people diagnosed with dementia. The most recent figures show that less than half of new diagnoses were referred for support and of those who were, nearly a fifth never got it. There’s a lot of rhetoric that never translates into reality unfortunately.

The one potential saving grace is that Scottish Government is only fronting half the money, the rest is coming from Macmillan, who generally know what they are doing. Macmillan rely on voluntary donations, and I think it is generally accepted that it means donations or bequests from people affected by cancer.

[RyeSloan]

Named person scheme scrapped entirely....

[Ozyhibby]

Named person scheme scrapped entirely....

Good, nice to see a government listen when it goes wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

Named person scheme scrapped entirely....

What an omnishambles this has been.

I am curious about a couple of things. Because the pre-school named person was to be a health visitor and there were nowhere near enough, they were having to try and recruit tons of them. I wonder how many have been recruited into jobs that are no longer needed?

It will be a big relief for senior teachers though. The government is pushing through a big extension of early years funding (in itself not a bad thing) but the strain for managing this increased service and staff group falls on HTs or their seniors, if they can delegate it.

[marinello59]

Good, nice to see a government listen when it goes wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s taken them six years to finally listen.

[Smartie]

As an SNP supporter it has been a policy that is somewhere between difficult and impossible to defend or justify.

It has tested even the most ardent SNP supporter but fair play, some of them defended it long and hard.

I don't doubt the idea came from the right place and a half-decent intention but FFS........

The worst thing about it is that it took so long to ditch it that damage as referred to in previous posts will have been done. It was clear, early, that it was a disaster.

[Moulin Yarns]

What an omnishambles this has been.

I am curious about a couple of things. Because the pre-school named person was to be a health visitor and there were nowhere near enough, they were having to try and recruit tons of them. I wonder how many have been recruited into jobs that are no longer needed?

It will be a big relief for senior teachers though. The government is pushing through a big extension of early years funding (in itself not a bad thing) but the strain for managing this increased service and staff group falls on HTs or their seniors, if they can delegate it.

Try an FOI to get the answers.

[weecounty hibby]

Well intentioned policy meant to help the most vulnerable kids in society. It's a pity that it couldn't have been amended to make it work. I heard it called a snoopers charter on the news this evening. Well I'd rather a bit of snooping if it meant kids were saved from harm. It would have been great to see cross party involvement to make something like this work

[Mibbes Aye]

Try an FOI to get the answers.

I reckon there will already be something in the public domain. Recruiting health visitors was always one of the biggest challenges so SG would have been publicising any advancement I am sure. And if nothing else it should have been asked repeatedly at committee at Holyrood. If I can be bothered looking I will but given this has been meant to be going live for years, I find it impossible to think there are not now more health visitors than we were operating with, before the policy was mooted. Having said that, I can imagine health visiting was possibly operating under strength, but the numbers needed to implement the policy would far exceed a normal full establishment.

[Mibbes Aye]

Well intentioned policy meant to help the most vulnerable kids in society. It's a pity that it couldn't have been amended to make it work. I heard it called a snoopers charter on the news this evening. Well I'd rather a bit of snooping if it meant kids were saved from harm. It would have been great to see cross party involvement to make something like this work

There is significant existing multi-agency involvement in protecting children from harm. I don’t have a strong view on the principle of the policy, it was well-intended as you say but pretty ham-fisted in the attempt to implement it.

And ultimately it wasn’t a lack of cross-party involvement that scuppered it, it was the Supreme Court.

[Fife-Hibee]

It’s taken them six years to finally listen.

Or far more likely, Brexit has made it impossible to recruit enough skilled workers to make the policy workable.

[weecounty hibby]

There is significant existing multi-agency involvement in protecting children from harm. I don’t have a strong view on the principle of the policy, it was well-intended as you say but pretty ham-fisted in the attempt to implement it.

And ultimately it wasn’t a lack of cross-party involvement that scuppered it, it was the Supreme Court.

Yip, multi agency involvement that still sees kids being harmed. Anything to improve on this must surely have been seen as a step in the right direction. I agree thath how it was handled by the SG wasn't great but that doesn't take away from what I said about parties working together to make a difference. Even while ultimately ruling against it, the court actually said that the aims of the bill were legitimate and benign. There are times where party politics should take second place and IMO this is one of them. Sadly though politics just ain't that way inclined at the moment

[Mibbes Aye]

Or far more likely, Brexit has made it impossible to recruit enough skilled workers to make the policy workable.

The legislation for named persons was passed two years before the Brexit vote.

[Fife-Hibee]

Yip, multi agency involvement that still sees kids being harmed. Anything to improve on this must surely have been seen as a step in the right direction. I agree thath how it was handled by the SG wasn't great but that doesn't take away from what I said about parties working together to make a difference. Even while ultimately ruling against it, the court actually said that the aims of the bill were legitimate and benign. There are times where party politics should take second place and IMO this is one of them. Sadly though politics just ain't that way inclined at the moment

:agree:

It was the same when they pulled the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act. There was no reason to get rid of it, it was purely political.

[Fife-Hibee]

The legislation for named persons was passed two years before the Brexit vote.

I know it was. Not sure what that has to do with what I said?

[Mibbes Aye]

Yip, multi agency involvement that still sees kids being harmed. Anything to improve on this must surely have been seen as a step in the right direction. I agree thath how it was handled by the SG wasn't great but that doesn't take away from what I said about parties working together to make a difference. Even while ultimately ruling against it, the court actually said that the aims of the bill were legitimate and benign. There are times where party politics should take second place and IMO this is one of them. Sadly though politics just ain't that way inclined at the moment

What are you on about?

The Act was passed unopposed in 2014.

It went through again with cross-party support in 2016.

The SNP administration have made an absolute ****-up of this legislation but to claim party politics was the problem is laughable.

[Mibbes Aye]

I know it was. Not sure what that has to do with what I said?

You suggested Brexit made the policy unworkable. The policy was passed into law two years before he Brexit vote. Plenty time to start recruiting health visitors. And anyway, it was the Supreme Court that made the policy unworkable, not Brexit.

[weecounty hibby]

What are you on about?

The Act was passed unopposed in 2014.

It went through again with cross-party support in 2016.

The SNP administration have made an absolute ****-up of this legislation but to claim party politics was the problem is laughable.
You are having a total laugh if you don't think party politics had nothing to do with that. I know the history behind the bill. It passed with all MSPs voting for it except the Tories who abstained as they didn't want to vote against it. Since then.......
Just look at the rhetoric from each and every party today about it. If it was so **** why vote for it? If it was good enough to vote it through why not work to make it better. And I never said that it was handled well, in fact I think I said it was a shambles

[Mibbes Aye]

You are having a total laugh if you don't think party politics had nothing to do with that. I know the history behind the bill. It passed with all MSPs voting for it except the Tories who abstained as they didn't want to vote against it. Since then.......
Just look at the rhetoric from each and every party today about it. If it was so **** why vote for it? If it was good enough to vote it through why not work to make it better. And I never said that it was handled well, in fact I think I said it was a shambles

The bill got passed with either support or no opposition from the other parties.

What happened after that sits purely with the administration and they made an absolute disaster of it. Not enough health visitors, too much extra work on senior teachers who were then asked to pick up supervision of extended early years hours and maybe the critical thing - it wasn’t actually legal.

No one argues against the principle of ensuring children are safe from harm. But my God, what a complete cluster**** the SNP made of the named person policy. It’s not on the Greens, the Tories, Labour or the Lib Dems. They need to own this one themselves.

[weecounty hibby]

The bill got passed with either support or no opposition from the other parties.

What happened after that sits purely with the administration and they made an absolute disaster of it. Not enough health visitors, too much extra work on senior teachers who were then asked to pick up supervision of extended early years hours and maybe the critical thing - it wasn’t actually legal.

No one argues against the principle of ensuring children are safe from harm. But my God, what a complete cluster**** the SNP made of the named person policy. It’s not on the Greens, the Tories, Labour or the Lib Dems. They need to own this one themselves.

I think you are mistaking what I said as some sort of defence of the government on this one. I can assure it's not! I was purely lamenting the fact that something that should have been a positive step was not worked on to make it acceptable to the courts and to parliament. The fact is that there are similar schemes actually in place in certain areas of the country that appear to be working, I don't know too much about them but if they can work in certain areas why not across the whole country?

[Glory Lurker]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the policy, and I don't know much about it to be honest, one really bad thing about the saga is that there's a bunch of religious fundamentalists in a good mood tonight.

[Mibbes Aye]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the policy, and I don't know much about it to be honest, one really bad thing about the saga is that there's a bunch of religious fundamentalists in a good mood tonight.

It must be confusing for Brian Souter. He has very strong religious views, to the extent he poured loads of money into trying to stop the repeal of Clause 28, which was legislation that discriminated against gay people. But then, he has also poured tons of money into the SNP. Possibly a bit of cognitive dissonance going on for him tonight.

[Glory Lurker]

It must be confusing for Brian Souter. He has very strong religious views, to the extent he poured loads of money into trying to stop the repeal of Clause 28, which was legislation that discriminated against gay people. But then, he has also poured tons of money into the SNP. Possibly a bit of cognitive dissonance going on for him tonight.

He's a Lib Dem now, so he'll be fine.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think you are mistaking what I said as some sort of defence of the government on this one. I can assure it's not! I was purely lamenting the fact that something that should have been a positive step was not worked on to make it acceptable to the courts and to parliament. The fact is that there are similar schemes actually in place in certain areas of the country that appear to be working, I don't know too much about them but if they can work in certain areas why not across the whole country?

Thats fair enough, but it wasn’t the fault of anyone other than the administration for this policy failing. In some parts of the country the policy has been implemented, though I don’t think there is any tangible evidence of the impact thus far.

The critical thing isn’t one policy that acts as a silver bullet or a gamechanger. Every time something goes wrong and a child comes to avoidable harm, it invariably comes down to a lack of communication between the relevant agencies and a lack of robust oversight by managers of the decisions being made by frontline staff. And sometimes harm just happens because it does, and there was nothing that could have realistically been done to identify and prevent it, certainly not a named person policy.

[Fife-Hibee]

The bill got passed with either support or no opposition from the other parties.

Actually, almost all MSPs actively backed the policy. Only the tories abstained on it.

Which makes the antics from Labour and Lib Dem MSPs today all that more pathetic.

[Mibbes Aye]

He's a Lib Dem now, so he'll be fine.

Is he?

I understand he gave around £3000 to the Lewes Lib Dem’s some years ago but I don’t know that he was a member. Interestingly, the sitting MP would have been Norman Baker, who was a coalition transport minister at the time.

[marinello59]

:agree:

It was the same when they pulled the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act. There was no reason to get rid of it, it was purely political.

No. It was poorly thought out legislation.

[Glory Lurker]

Is he?

I understand he gave around £3000 to the Lewes Lib Dem’s some years ago but I don’t know that he was a member. Interestingly, the sitting MP would have been Norman Baker, who was a coalition transport minister at the time.

His last donation was to Lib Dems. He's not given to the good guys :-) for years. No idea if he's actually a member of Lib Dems.

[Glory Lurker]

No. It was poorly thought out legislation.

Probably, but still better than the replacement the opposition have brought forward. Oh.

[Mibbes Aye]

His last donation was to Lib Dems. He's not given to the good guys :-) for years. No idea if he's actually a member of Lib Dems.

Right, so when you said he was a Lib Dem now........

[Mibbes Aye]

His last donation was to Lib Dems. He's not given to the good guys :-) for years. No idea if he's actually a member of Lib Dems.

And you are right, it appears to have been a while since his last donation to the SNP but as I recall, correct me if I am wrong...

SNP party conference passed a motion calling for greater bus regulation. Next month, Souter donated something like a million to the SNP. Next month, the SNP leadership dropped regulation from party policy. Have I got that right?

[Glory Lurker]

And you are right, it appears to have been a while since his last donation to the SNP but as I recall, correct me if I am wrong...

SNP party conference passed a motion calling for greater bus regulation. Next month, Souter donated something like a million to the SNP. Next month, the SNP leadership dropped regulation from party policy. Have I got that right?

I don't know, and don't really care to be honest.

[Glory Lurker]

Right, so when you said he was a Lib Dem now........

Just imagine the word "supporter" after "Dem" then. Gets us to the same place.

How did we get here? I had a dig at religious fundamentalists. Surely we can agree on that?

[Fife-Hibee]

Probably, but still better than the replacement the opposition have brought forward. Oh.

Yes, but as long as it's not SNP legislation.... (backed by every party except the tories until the other parties decided to jump on the 'stick it to the SNP' bandwagon instead)

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/MissBabington/status/1174745691719163910?s=19

[Mibbes Aye]

Just imagine the word "supporter" after "Dem" then. Gets us to the same place.

How did we get here? I had a dig at religious fundamentalists. Surely we can agree on that?

How did we get here?

I think you said Souter was a Lib Dem now.

And then you said you had no idea if he was a Lib Dem, when challenged.

That’s how we got here.

I think you were maybe trying to defend the SNP or the ‘good guys’ as you referred to them but then got caught out.

I am sure we will all treat your claims of facts with a reasonable degree of scepticism from now.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't know, and don't really care to be honest.

Well, if anyone else wants to correct me, the floor is theirs.......

[Mibbes Aye]

Probably, but still better than the replacement the opposition have brought forward. Oh.

What sort of legislation should be brought forward to enhance child protection in Scotland?

[Fife-Hibee]

What sort of legislation should be brought forward to enhance child protection in Scotland?

I think the question should be. What legislation can be brought forward to enhance child protection in Scotland? Because as long as there are those who will put political point scoring above the safety and wellbeing of children, it's a senseless endeavour for the SNP to go anywhere near again.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think the question should be. What legislation can be brought forward to enhance child protection in Scotland? Because as long as there are those who will put political point scoring above the safety and wellbeing of children, it's a senseless endeavour for the SNP to go anywhere near again.

Can you even describe the existing legislation for child protection in Scotland, let alone critique it and explain why it isn’t good enough?

[Ozyhibby]

How did we get here?

I think you said Souter was a Lib Dem now.

And then you said you had no idea if he was a Lib Dem, when challenged.

That’s how we got here.

I think you were maybe trying to defend the SNP or the ‘good guys’ as you referred to them but then got caught out.

I am sure we will all treat your claims of facts with a reasonable degree of scepticism from now.

I’ve no idea why this policy failed because my knowledge of social work is almost non existent and I haven’t really followed the thread that closely but I’m curious why Souter’s name has come up again and what relevance he has in modern politics? He’s been off the scene for more than ten years now as far as I know?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

I’ve no idea why this policy failed because my knowledge of social work is almost non existent and I haven’t really followed the thread that closely but I’m curious why Souter’s name has come up again and what relevance he has in modern politics? He’s been off the scene for more than ten years now as far as I know?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think it has moved on. We established Souter gave the SNP tons of money, shortly before the leadership overturned a conference vote in a manner which benefitted Souter. And we established that Souter poured tons of money into trying to keep Tory legislation which many would consider simply homophobic.

Souter returned because someone fairly pointed out that some conservative Christians (I assume) were vehemently against the named person policy. Souter can be attributed as a conservative Christian.

The policy didn’t fail because of ‘social work’. It failed because there was no capacity amongst health visitors to deal with being named persons. And there was no capacity for senior teachers to be named persons, especially after the pledge to increase the amount of early years provision.

That, and the very small matter that the Supreme Court declared it illegal.

[Fife-Hibee]

Can you even describe the existing legislation for child protection in Scotland, let alone critique it and explain why it isn’t good enough?

Because even if 1 child is suffering under the existing legislation, that's 1 child too many. It's not a question of whether it's "good enough". If it isn't perfect, then it isn't right.

[Mibbes Aye]

Because even if 1 child is suffering under the existing legislation, that's 1 child too many. It's not a question of whether it's "good enough". If it isn't perfect, then it isn't right.
Oh, I feel a tear welling in my eye.

So, to recap, you can’t begin to describe the legislation and policy that underpins child protection in Scotland. You don’t know what you are talking about, do you? Go on and explain it and if you Google it I will see through it, I think you know that and I will show you up.

As a consequence you cannot criticise it or critique it. Thousands of professionals in social work, police and health going out every day to try and safeguard, to miminise harm. To investigate and prosecute harm.

But all you can do is offer the post you made. You don’t know what you are talking about and your posts are a joke.

And you jump from being pro-SNP or pro-Corbyn or hate-Swinson at the drop of a feather. You are ridiculous.

[Fife-Hibee]

Oh, I feel a tear welling in my eye.

So, to recap, you can’t begin to describe the legislation and policy that underpins child protection in Scotland. You don’t know what you are talking about, do you? Go on and explain it and if you Google it I will see through it, I think you know that and I will show you up.

As a consequence you cannot criticise it or critique it. Thousands of professionals in social work, police and health going out every day to try and safeguard, to miminise harm. To investigate and prosecute harm.

But all you can do is offer the post you made. You don’t know what you are talking about and your posts are a joke.

And you jump from being pro-SNP or pro-Corbyn or hate-Swinson at the drop of a feather. You are ridiculous.

It's the kind of thing i've came to expect from you to be honest. You're very toryesque in the way that you treat people as mere statistics, even children. You talk about things being "good enough", as if it's just some percentage game.

The only thing I need to know about the current legislation is that children still continue to suffer. As long as that's the case, then it's never "good enough" as far as i'm concerned.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's the kind of thing i've came to expect from you to be honest. You're very toryesque in the way that you treat people as mere statistics, even children. You talk about things being "good enough", as if it's just some percentage game.

The only thing I need to know about the current legislation is that children still continue to suffer. As long as that's the case, then it's never "good enough" as far as i'm concerned.

Give me some metrics on how children continue to suffer.

Give me some things that local authorities should be doing differently?

Give me some, any reassurance, that you actually know what you are talking about when it comes to child protection because there are national measures and datasets, national reporting and benchmarking and national initiatives and tests of change yet you can’t speak to any of that because you are making it up as you go along, aren’t you?

You don’t know anything about child protection legislation otherwise than that which you can hurriedly Google. You are talking nonsense.

And “Toryesque” isn’t a real word but it is amusing.......

[Glory Lurker]

How did we get here?

I think you said Souter was a Lib Dem now.

And then you said you had no idea if he was a Lib Dem, when challenged.

That’s how we got here.

I think you were maybe trying to defend the SNP or the ‘good guys’ as you referred to them but then got caught out.

I am sure we will all treat your claims of facts with a reasonable degree of scepticism from now.

No. I wasn't defending the legislation, or the SNP. That's clear in the post you first replied to. I simply pointed out that some fundamentalists would be pleased with the outcome, and you decided to go off on one about Souter.

"A Lib Dem". No need to get yourself so steamed up, man.

[Glory Lurker]

What sort of legislation should be brought forward to enhance child protection in Scotland?

No, as is patently clear from the exchange with M59, I was talking about a replacement to OBFA. You need to clear the red mist, chief, you're just seeing what you want to see.

[Mibbes Aye]

No. I wasn't defending the legislation, or the SNP. That's clear in the post you first replied to. I simply pointed out that some fundamentalists would be pleased with the outcome, and you decided to go off on one about Souter.

"A Lib Dem". No need to get yourself so steamed up, man.

I mentiooned Souter, you said he was a Lib Dem, then when challenged said you had no idea if he was a Lib Dem.

No steaming up, just interested in accuracy.

[Mibbes Aye]

No, as is patently clear from the exchange with M59, I was talking about a replacement to OBFA. You need to clear the red mist, chief, you're just seeing what you want to see.

Yeah, I read it as if you were referring back to the CP legislation but happy to accept you were talking about OBFA. My misinterpretation, sorry for that.

[Mr Grieves]

It's been drowned out by all the noise around brexit, but early evidence suggests minimum alcohol pricing is having a positive effect.

[Ozyhibby]

It's been drowned out by all the noise around brexit, but early evidence suggests minimum alcohol pricing is having a positive effect.

Of course. You can affect the demand for most things through price.
Amazingly it looks like we can control (within reason) how much alcohol people want because it’s legal but years of prohibition of drugs has no affect at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

It's been drowned out by all the noise around brexit, but early evidence suggests minimum alcohol pricing is having a positive effect.

I read the article quickly but it did seem to have a number of caveats.

One, the period under review saw an immediate impact of the price rise as a reduction in consumption but that in the last few months there had been a reversal of that trend

Two, the control group seems to be an area of England.

Now I know they need to try and measure it somehow but these two groups already had differing consumption levels and I think contrasting trends prior to the price hike so making any comparisons to the control group is always going to be difficult.

Three, I didn’t see anything in it that adjusted for existing or expanded services that have been applied to the problem previously.

Four, one of the clear impacts it did pick up was that the price rise had moved people from cheap ciders onto hard liquor. Not sure that can be seen as a positive effect even if the average total unit consumption was lowered slightly overall by that.


Anyhoo let’s hope the blight of excessive alcohol consumption is being tackled one way or the other.

[RyeSloan]

Not sure this is the right thread as it’s far from nonsense but I see the same sex civil partnership law has been lodged in the SP today.

Shame it took a Supreme Court ruling to make it happen but none the less a welcome move by the SG.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure this is the right thread as it’s far from nonsense but I see the same sex civil partnership law has been lodged in the SP today.

Shame it took a Supreme Court ruling to make it happen but none the less a welcome move by the SG.


The supreme Court ruled that the uk law was against the European commission on human rights.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49889498

[cabbageandribs1875]

baaaaaaaaaaad SNP, bad

22585


https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2019/09/30/evidence-for-this-fine-graphic-going-viral/?fbclid=IwAR3sjruQq2Mp7n1ZvHYSBEomqyPtmKKIGS3-ioC6D7Y2E2euTtTe3qI3Ohg



bad SNP :agree:



print that Scottish MSM, go on

[Future17]

Not sure this is the right thread as it’s far from nonsense but I see the same sex civil partnership law has been lodged in the SP today.

Shame it took a Supreme Court ruling to make it happen but none the less a welcome move by the SG.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Do you mean mixed-sex, rather than same-sex?

[RyeSloan]

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Do you mean mixed-sex, rather than same-sex?

Lol yeah that’s what I meant!

[Mibbes Aye]

baaaaaaaaaaad SNP, bad

22585


https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2019/09/30/evidence-for-this-fine-graphic-going-viral/?fbclid=IwAR3sjruQq2Mp7n1ZvHYSBEomqyPtmKKIGS3-ioC6D7Y2E2euTtTe3qI3Ohg



bad SNP :agree:



print that Scottish MSM, go on

I’m not sure you really want to be posting that. Here is why.

The first graph with a title is ‘hospital beds per 1000 of population’. I am assuming you think that a higher figure is a good thing.

Yet as long as the SNP has been in power in Scotland, and actually the coalition as well before that, there have been various national policies - ‘Shifting The Balance Of Care’; ‘Reshaping Care for Older People’ etc -that have all argued that investment needs to shift from bed-based care in hospitals to community-based health and social care, otherwise the system will collapse under the weight of demographic pressures.

Basically, for the last fifteen years everyone has said we need to close beds and wards and move the money from hospital to community.

As for the second graph about spend, health care is consistently failing to meet the targets set in all four of the home nations. Scotland’s health boards are failing against its targets consistently. The SNP government introduced a law about waiting times for treatment that I think it has now broken 150,000 times, probably more.

I could go on but I am happy to acknowledge that the degree by which Scotland is failing is not as bad as England and Wales, as it stands. They are still failing, just not quite as badly (yet).

I say ‘yet’ because one of the issues that has to be factored in is that some critical spending cuts in local services are a couple of years ahead in England. Their social care and community services are further down the road of losing funding and that ultimately leads to more unscheduled hospital admissions and more delayed discharges, more targets being missed and by a greater factor.

So, Scotland spending more but still failing, with the full force of the storm still to hit, doesn’t really seem something to ‘talk up’, does it?

[Jack]

I’m not sure you really want to be posting that. Here is why.

The first graph with a title is ‘hospital beds per 1000 of population’. I am assuming you think that a higher figure is a good thing.

Yet as long as the SNP has been in power in Scotland, and actually the coalition as well before that, there have been various national policies - ‘Shifting The Balance Of Care’; ‘Reshaping Care for Older People’ etc -that have all argued that investment needs to shift from bed-based care in hospitals to community-based health and social care, otherwise the system will collapse under the weight of demographic pressures.

Basically, for the last fifteen years everyone has said we need to close beds and wards and move the money from hospital to community.

As for the second graph about spend, health care is consistently failing to meet the targets set in all four of the home nations. Scotland’s health boards are failing against its targets consistently. The SNP government introduced a law about waiting times for treatment that I think it has now broken 150,000 times, probably more.

I could go on but I am happy to acknowledge that the degree by which Scotland is failing is not as bad as England and Wales, as it stands. They are still failing, just not quite as badly (yet).

I say ‘yet’ because one of the issues that has to be factored in is that some critical spending cuts in local services are a couple of years ahead in England. Their social care and community services are further down the road of losing funding and that ultimately leads to more unscheduled hospital admissions and more delayed discharges, more targets being missed and by a greater factor.

So, Scotland spending more but still failing, with the full force of the storm still to hit, doesn’t really seem something to ‘talk up’, does it?

While what you're saying about shifting the balance of care is correct there is still a need for hospital beds.

The cuts in England are political and have little to do with shifting care anywhere. Although if it's shifting anywhere it's into the hands of private companies.

Before I retired I was in healthcare. I used to attend various UK conferences. At one of these I was having a similar debate to this with a very senior clinician from England. During that discussion I asked where in the UK he'd he'd rather be ill, Scotland he said; where would you rather grow old (and dependent on care), Scotland again.

I'll take that as a ringing endorsement of the NHS in Scotland.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well done the Scottish government

BREAKING: Scottish government #fracking 'ban' to continue indefinitely https://t.co/t0catWBn6J https://t.co/C4PmpXKKEA

[Mibbes Aye]

While what you're saying about shifting the balance of care is correct there is still a need for hospital beds.

The cuts in England are political and have little to do with shifting care anywhere. Although if it's shifting anywhere it's into the hands of private companies.

Before I retired I was in healthcare. I used to attend various UK conferences. At one of these I was having a similar debate to this with a very senior clinician from England. During that discussion I asked where in the UK he'd he'd rather be ill, Scotland he said; where would you rather grow old (and dependent on care), Scotland again.

I'll take that as a ringing endorsement of the NHS in Scotland.

I think it reinforces my point. As far as performance goes, Scotland is the least worst of the four, so yes, why not choose it. But it feels misleading to say it is ‘best’ when it consistently fails to meet its targets, which were set because that’s what was felt to be an adequate level of service for the sick and ill.

I think the other point is there are outstanding local health services and failing local health services in all four nations.

[Smartie]

The SNP are on a funny position on stuff like this.

On one hand they need to appear to be competent in government, delivering services of a standard that gives us confidence they merit our trust going forward into an independent Scotland.

On the other hand they can't be seen to do TOO good a job, as their entire existence is built around the fact that they can't do as good a job as they would if Scotland was independent.

I'm not sure "facts" even have much place in such an argument. Those who believe in independence will make out the facts support them, those against independence will argue the opposite. It's all now an exercise in finding facts to back up your opinion rather than forming your opinion after studying facts.

[Jack]

I think it reinforces my point. As far as performance goes, Scotland is the least worst of the four, so yes, why not choose it. But it feels misleading to say it is ‘best’ when it consistently fails to meet its targets, which were set because that’s what was felt to be an adequate level of service for the sick and ill.

I think the other point is there are outstanding local health services and failing local health services in all four nations.

You sound like Boris Johnson when he criticises the Scottish Government for grave inadequacies while services in England are failing in every conceivable way.

Best means better than all others.

The NHS in Scotland is performing better than the other home nations i.e. it's the best.

And has been consistently the best for a number of years.

And of course it could be better.

[Mibbes Aye]

You sound like Boris Johnson when he criticises the Scottish Government for grave inadequacies while services in England are failing in every conceivable way.

Best means better than all others.

The NHS in Scotland is performing better than the other home nations i.e. it's the best.

And has been consistently the best for a number of years.

And of course it could be better.

Oh please.

I think if you had a career in the Scottish health system then you will know fine well all the problems - constant and consistent failure to meet key targets, financial mismanagement, toxic cultures of bullying, shambolic procurement and the list goes on.

To bang on about it being the best is akin to looking at the managerial records of Duffy, Calderwood and Butcher, picking the one with the highest win percentage and proclaiming them the best. It doesn’t really count for that much, does it?

It is a failing system, it just hasn’t been failing as badly as England and Wales (yet), for reasons articulated earlier. Some honesty about that might help address the situation rather than deflection about how ‘we miss all our key targets by miles but it is a wee bit less of a miss than down south’.

I think those who depend on health services deserve that honesty.

[Callum_62]

Whens Johnson going to start attacking the terrible job the English Govt has done with health care?

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[Jack]

Oh please.

I think if you had a career in the Scottish health system then you will know fine well all the problems - constant and consistent failure to meet key targets, financial mismanagement, toxic cultures of bullying, shambolic procurement and the list goes on.

To bang on about it being the best is akin to looking at the managerial records of Duffy, Calderwood and Butcher, picking the one with the highest win percentage and proclaiming them the best. It doesn’t really count for that much, does it?

It is a failing system, it just hasn’t been failing as badly as England and Wales (yet), for reasons articulated earlier. Some honesty about that might help address the situation rather than deflection about how ‘we miss all our key targets by miles but it is a wee bit less of a miss than down south’.

I think those who depend on health services deserve that honesty.

Oh aye and the Scottish NHS has the highest satisfaction rate with its users.

[marinello59]

Eva Bolander finally does the decent thing and resigns. Proof that politicians of all parties are prone to sticking their nose in the trough.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-50243192

[greenlex]

Oh please.

I think if you had a career in the Scottish health system then you will know fine well all the problems - constant and consistent failure to meet key targets, financial mismanagement, toxic cultures of bullying, shambolic procurement and the list goes on.

To bang on about it being the best is akin to looking at the managerial records of Duffy, Calderwood and Butcher, picking the one with the highest win percentage and proclaiming them the best. It doesn’t really count for that much, does it?

It is a failing system, it just hasn’t been failing as badly as England and Wales (yet), for reasons articulated earlier. Some honesty about that might help address the situation rather than deflection about how ‘we miss all our key targets by miles but it is a wee bit less of a miss than down south’.

I think those who depend on health services deserve that honesty.
It'll be better when it’s run from Westminster I’m sure.

[Fife-Hibee]

Eva Bolander finally does the decent thing and resigns. Proof that politicians of all parties are prone to sticking their nose in the trough.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-50243192

I wonder how much her tory councilor husband raked in out of this poor charade of hers.

[Frankhfc]

Eva Bolander finally does the decent thing and resigns. Proof that politicians of all parties are prone to sticking their nose in the trough.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-50243192

:top marks

Its sad to see politicians of any party taking liberties with public money.

[marinello59]

I wonder how much her tory councilor husband raked in out of this poor charade of hers.

I don’t see what he has to do with it unless he wears the same size in female lingerie and shoes. Yet again you don’t make any sense.

[Fife-Hibee]

I don’t see what he has to do with it unless he wears the same size in female lingerie and shoes. Yet again you don’t make any sense.

Really? The only SNP employee caught pulling off a scandal like this and their spouse just so happens to be a tory politician?

How many SNP MPs/MSPs/councilors do you think are married to tory politicians?

[marinello59]

Really? The only SNP employee caught pulling off a scandal like this and their spouse just so happens to be a tory politician?

How many SNP MPs/MSPs/councilors do you think are married to tory politicians?

Are you seriously suggesting she could only be acting under the instructions of her husband. Wow. You really aren’t doing much to counter allegations that you have problems with female politicians are you?
As an aside have you heard of Natalie McGarry ?

[JeMeSouviens]

Really? The only SNP employee caught pulling off a scandal like this and their spouse just so happens to be a tory politician?

How many SNP MPs/MSPs/councilors do you think are married to tory politicians?

Are you sure you’re not mixing her up with Natalie Mcgarry?

[marinello59]

Are you sure you’re not mixing her up with Natalie Mcgarry?

That’s exactly what he has done but I’m enjoying him hanging himself.

[JeMeSouviens]

That’s exactly what he has done but I’m enjoying him hanging himself.

Ah, sorry to spoil your fun.

[ronaldo7]

Eva Bolander finally does the decent thing and resigns. Proof that politicians of all parties are prone to sticking their nose in the trough.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-50243192

I'm still waiting on someone, anyone, saying that the allowance which she was drawing from, is too much.

Maybe Paul Hutcheon will get round to it sometime.

[Mibbes Aye]

It'll be better when it’s run from Westminster I’m sure.

I am not sure it would. But I hate the dishonesty where it is failing up here but people say “Oh, it isn’t as bad as England”.

England is going to be worse because local authority cuts are two years ahead of Scotland and that affects how health services perform. It isn’t rocket science.

[Jack]

What exactly did she do wrong?

She gets an allowance "The money spent was within the civic allowance allocated to the council by the Scottish government."

[CloudSquall]

What exactly did she do wrong?

She gets an allowance "The money spent was within the civic allowance allocated to the council by the Scottish government."


Yeah the more I read into the expenses and what she claimed I can't see where she went that wrong to have to resign.

[Jack]

I am not sure it would. But I hate the dishonesty where it is failing up here but people say “Oh, it isn’t as bad as England”.

England is going to be worse because local authority cuts are two years ahead of Scotland and that affects how health services perform. It isn’t rocket science.

Where would you rather be ill?

Scotland or England?

[Mibbes Aye]

Where would you rather be ill?

Scotland or England?

I would rather not be ill.

And I have children I wouldn’t want to be depending on the Sick Kids

And I have parents I wouldn’t want anywhere near the Death Star in Glasgow

There is decent health care in England and there is decent healthcare in Scotland but it is sporadic.

Claiming things are better in Scotland is a falsehood in so much that they are less worse than they are elsewhere but they are still bad.

You know the system, show a little honesty please.

[lord bunberry]

What exactly did she do wrong?

She gets an allowance "The money spent was within the civic allowance allocated to the council by the Scottish government."
She did nothing wrong, she had an allowance and didn’t even spend it all. The complete rat that has recently joined the daily record decided he wanted to make a name for himself and wouldn’t let the story go away.

[Ozyhibby]

She did nothing wrong, she had an allowance and didn’t even spend it all. The complete rat that has recently joined the daily record decided he wanted to make a name for himself and wouldn’t let the story go away.

I haven’t really followed this story but that was what I thought was the case? Surely if you have an allowance as part of your employment contract then you are entitled to spend it? In fact you would be daft not to? Like I say I have not followed this story so maybe I picked it up wrong?


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[marinello59]

I haven’t really followed this story but that was what I thought was the case? Surely if you have an allowance as part of your employment contract then you are entitled to spend it? In fact you would be daft not to? Like I say I have not followed this story so maybe I picked it up wrong?


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You are right, she didn't actually break any rules but that doesn't mean she didn't abuse the system.
Say your employer gives you a set daily meal allowance when you are working away from home. You've had your meal, more than enough, yet there's still a good chunk of allowance left. So you order some more food or a few drinks. You can easily justify that greed by saying you would be daft not to, everybody else does it, the company can afford it, they don't pay you enough anyway etc.
Is that same self - justification available to you if you are an elected official entrusted with efficiently spending the tax payers money? You could blame the press for persisting with the story or the system for allowing her to claim so much but at the end of the day she made a serious misjudgement and had to go. Basically she kicked the erse oot of it. :greengrin
It's a real shame because she is a more than capable politician who was doing a decent job but she really had no alternative than to put her hands up and walk and it's to her credit she has recognised that and acted.

[ronaldo7]

You are right, she didn't actually break any rules but that doesn't mean she didn't abuse the system.
Say your employer gives you a set daily meal allowance when you are working away from home. You've had your meal, more than enough, yet there's still a good chunk of allowance left. So you order some more food or a few drinks. You can easily justify that greed by saying you would be daft not to, everybody else does it, the company can afford it, they don't pay you enough anyway etc.
Is that same self - justification available to you if you are an elected official entrusted with efficiently spending the tax payers money? You could blame the press for persisting with the story or the system for allowing her to claim so much but at the end of the day she made a serious misjudgement and had to go. Basically she kicked the erse oot of it. :greengrin
It's a real shame because she is a more than capable politician who was doing a decent job but she really had no alternative than to put her hands up and walk and it's to her credit she has recognised that and acted.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1189900847133659136

:applause:

[marinello59]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1189900847133659136

:applause:

I am sure you would be just as supportive if it had been a Labour councillor in the same position. :greengrin
Like I said, a very capable politician. I hope she learns from this and goes forward to better things.

[ronaldo7]

I am sure you would be just as supportive if it had been a Labour councillor in the same position. :greengrin

Hey, as they say these days, the optics were all wrong.

Talking of optics, I wonder how all those drinks are going down in Aberdeen council these days, all from the common good fund.:aok:

[marinello59]

Hey, as they say these days, the optics were all wrong.

Talking of optics, I wonder how all those drinks are going down in Aberdeen council these days, all from the common good fund.:aok:

I doubt there is a bigger bunch of self serving *******s in any council in Scotland than there is in Aberdeen and that's quite an achievement. The still suspended Labour councillors are an absolute disgrace.

[Callum_62]

You are right, she didn't actually break any rules but that doesn't mean she didn't abuse the system.
Say your employer gives you a set daily meal allowance when you are working away from home. You've had your meal, more than enough, yet there's still a good chunk of allowance left. So you order some more food or a few drinks. You can easily justify that greed by saying you would be daft not to, everybody else does it, the company can afford it, they don't pay you enough anyway etc.
Is that same self - justification available to you if you are an elected official entrusted with efficiently spending the tax payers money? You could blame the press for persisting with the story or the system for allowing her to claim so much but at the end of the day she made a serious misjudgement and had to go. Basically she kicked the erse oot of it. :greengrin
It's a real shame because she is a more than capable politician who was doing a decent job but she really had no alternative than to put her hands up and walk and it's to her credit she has recognised that and acted.But she didn't even spend it all.

My previous job had me looking after about 40 staffs yearly clothing allowance - they would ring me up near the end of the year asking what they have left. so they could go out and blow it - abolsutely nothing wrong with that. Its what they are entitled to as offered by there employer

Don't get the fuss myself

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[ronaldo7]

I doubt there is a bigger bunch of self serving *******s in any council in Scotland than there is in Aberdeen and that's quite an achievement. The still suspended Labour councillors are an absolute disgrace.

Glad you got that off your chest...Labour you say.:greengrin

[Jack]

I would rather not be ill.

And I have children I wouldn’t want to be depending on the Sick Kids

And I have parents I wouldn’t want anywhere near the Death Star in Glasgow

There is decent health care in England and there is decent healthcare in Scotland but it is sporadic.

Claiming things are better in Scotland is a falsehood in so much that they are less worse than they are elsewhere but they are still bad.

You know the system, show a little honesty please.

A straight yes or no would suffice.

Claiming Scotland has a better healthcare system is a fact.

[marinello59]

Glad you got that off your chest...Labour you say.:greengrin


Aye, wrong thread maybe, apologies I don't want to be accused of deflecting attention from Bolander with whataboutery. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

A straight yes or no would suffice.

Claiming Scotland has a better healthcare system is a fact.

Of course it does. Everyone knows this which is why the SNP government faces no serious challenge here.
It’s also why Johnson is threatening to take control of the Scottish NHS back. He needs control of it if the nhs is to be included in his trade deal with Trump.


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[lord bunberry]

You are right, she didn't actually break any rules but that doesn't mean she didn't abuse the system.
Say your employer gives you a set daily meal allowance when you are working away from home. You've had your meal, more than enough, yet there's still a good chunk of allowance left. So you order some more food or a few drinks. You can easily justify that greed by saying you would be daft not to, everybody else does it, the company can afford it, they don't pay you enough anyway etc.
Is that same self - justification available to you if you are an elected official entrusted with efficiently spending the tax payers money? You could blame the press for persisting with the story or the system for allowing her to claim so much but at the end of the day she made a serious misjudgement and had to go. Basically she kicked the erse oot of it. :greengrin
It's a real shame because she is a more than capable politician who was doing a decent job but she really had no alternative than to put her hands up and walk and it's to her credit she has recognised that and acted.

I completely disagree. It was a misogynist witch-hunt by the daily record. She underspent on her allowance, but because she spent so much of it on shoes she’s been forced to resign. If it had been a man in office that had spent his allowance on nice suits and ties there would’ve been nothing said.

[JeMeSouviens]

I would rather not be ill.

And I have children I wouldn’t want to be depending on the Sick Kids

And I have parents I wouldn’t want anywhere near the Death Star in Glasgow

There is decent health care in England and there is decent healthcare in Scotland but it is sporadic.

Claiming things are better in Scotland is a falsehood in so much that they are less worse than they are elsewhere but they are still bad.

You know the system, show a little honesty please.

I get your general drift, but I'm not sure you understand how comparitive adjectives work. :wink:

[marinello59]

I completely disagree. It was a misogynist witch-hunt by the daily record. She underspent on her allowance, but because she spent so much of it on shoes she’s been forced to resign. If it had been a man in office that had spent his allowance on nice suits and ties there would’ve been nothing said.

I agree that the Daily Record reporting of this did stink of misogyny. Comparing her to Imelda Marcos was well over the top. That doesn't mean she didn't abuse the system though or act in a way an elected custodian of our finances should. I do get where you are coming from but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[Smartie]

I’ve not followed the story closely but are these provost positions not largely style over substance, therefore a huge chunk of an expenses budget will be used up on eating out, transport and clothes to look good in the job?

If she kept within the budget, didn’t break any rules and performed in her role then what exactly is the problem?

[Ozyhibby]

I’ve not followed the story closely but are these provost positions not largely style over substance, therefore a huge chunk of an expenses budget will be used up on eating out, transport and clothes to look good in the job?

If she kept within the budget, didn’t break any rules and performed in her role then what exactly is the problem?

That was my impression. In future whoever takes the role is going to have to negotiate a higher salary to compensate, as it’s clear that the allowance will no longer be politically acceptable.


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[lord bunberry]

I agree that the Daily Record reporting of this did stink of misogyny. Comparing her to Imelda Marcos was well over the top. That doesn't mean she didn't abuse the system though or act in a way an elected custodian of our finances should. I do get where you are coming from but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Fair enough, but to me it has very little to do with what she’s done and more to do with the fact she’s a woman and that she’s not Scottish.

[Moulin Yarns]

I agree that the Daily Record reporting of this did stink of misogyny. Comparing her to Imelda Marcos was well over the top. That doesn't mean she didn't abuse the system though or act in a way an elected custodian of our finances should. I do get where you are coming from but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

The figure spent on 23 pairs of shoes was apparently £1150, or put another way £50 per pair of shoes. She certainly wasn't shopping in Clarks if that's all she was paying :greengrin

Maybe she should put everything up for auction for a charity, or is that akin to airing her dirty laundry in public :wink:


Many years ago I worked in the Civil Service in Chesser House, the job involved surveying agricultural land, land reclamation, Government properties and the like. I never went away but those that did played the expenses system to supplement their salaries. There was a fixed amount for each night away covering meals and accommodation, some of the others would camp but claim for B&B. This sort of thing isn't new.

[Mibbes Aye]

I get your general drift, but I'm not sure you understand how comparitive adjectives work. :wink:

It was a clumsy sentence I admit. But I do know how to spell comparative :na na:

[JeMeSouviens]

It was a clumsy sentence I admit. But I do know how to spell comparative :na na:

Touché! :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

Touché! :greengrin
That's not how you spell touchy either!!

[JeMeSouviens]

That's not how you spell touchy either!!

Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy. :boo hoo:

[Mibbes Aye]

Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy. :boo hoo:

:greengrin

[Slavers]

Why compare NHS Scotland & England? It's like comparing apples and bananas.

England has a huge population and is one of the most overcrowded countries in Europe.

The large population, more pollution, a much larger number of people migrating into England putting instant stress on NHS resources and demand compared to Scotland.

Trying to take the high ground by performing marginally better than NHS England under these circumstances seems a bit desperate by some to get one up on the English in anyway they can.

[Smartie]

Why compare NHS Scotland & England? It's like comparing apples and bananas.

England has a huge population and is one of the most overcrowded countries in Europe.

The large population, more pollution, a much larger number of people migrating into England putting instant stress on NHS resources and demand compared to Scotland.

Trying to take the high ground by performing marginally better than NHS England under these circumstances seems a bit desperate by some to get one up on the English in anyway they can.

FWIW I agree with you.

The NHS in England is far too low a bar to be setting. I take on board your points about the challenges of population, migration etc but that SHOULD generate a decent amount of tax revenue that SHOULD be able to provide a better service than it does.

It's a bit woolly and difficult, but the only bar Scotland's NHS should be compared against should be where it should be, and it falls short.

We can have an argument about why that is on this or any of the other relevant threads.

[Mibbes Aye]

Why compare NHS Scotland & England? It's like comparing apples and bananas.

England has a huge population and is one of the most overcrowded countries in Europe.

The large population, more pollution, a much larger number of people migrating into England putting instant stress on NHS resources and demand compared to Scotland.

Trying to take the high ground by performing marginally better than NHS England under these circumstances seems a bit desperate by some to get one up on the English in anyway they can.

It is distraction politics.

The SNP administration set its own targets for health and made some of them legally-binding.

And it is missing them all on a consistent basis.

Add that to the failures around the hospital builds in Glasgow and Edinburgh, the massive rise in drug-related deaths etc etc and it is no surprise why you hear ministers saying, “Oh, our unscheduled admissions or delayed discharges aren’t as bad as England”.

It is failure, pure and simple, despite having years in charge.

As a resident, citizen, parent, son, brother and whatever else in Scotland, I am not interested in hearing things are two per cent better up here. I am interested in what is being done to address the failures here. Because the government is failing by the standards it set all by itself.

[Jack]

Yawn.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yawn.

Well, it’s good to see you’ve dropped the “Oh but we are marginally better than England” response and now are just going for the “dismissive but don’t have a counter-argument” response.

Genuinely, you have posted on here about having a career linked to the NHS. You know, possibly better than me, about the failure to meet performance targets and financial break-even.

Why not post about that and what you think could be done to remedy matters? As it stands, Sturgeon and Robison failed in post and it’s hard to see how Freeman makes a success of it.

[Moulin Yarns]

FWIW I agree with you.

The NHS in England is far too low a bar to be setting. I take on board your points about the challenges of population, migration etc but that SHOULD generate a decent amount of tax revenue that SHOULD be able to provide a better service than it does.

It's a bit woolly and difficult, but the only bar Scotland's NHS should be compared against should be where it should be, and it falls short.

We can have an argument about why that is on this or any of the other relevant threads.

As my sister in law works for the NHS in West Yorkshire I know that immigration has a positive impact.

[Smartie]

As my sister in law works for the NHS in West Yorkshire I know that immigration has a positive impact.

On a number of levels (such as providing staff who are prepared to work for what the NHS are prepared to pay).

I didn't really think that this was the time or the place for the life-shortening experience which is debating immigration in this context.

[Moulin Yarns]

On a number of levels (such as providing staff who are prepared to work for what the NHS are prepared to pay).

I didn't really think that this was the time or the place for the life-shortening experience which is debating immigration in this context.

Surely the NHS has a pay structure that is the same for all employees, not different for immigrants!!!!

[Smartie]

Surely the NHS has a pay structure that is the same for all employees, not different for immigrants!!!!

A lot of professionals who will gain a UK qualification will look at the whole package that working for the NHS involves - pay, resources with which to do their job, respect from bosses and patients using the service and say f that, I'm going overseas and emigrate themselves. New Zealand and Australia are very popular destinations for UK trained health professionals.

The same package may (will) be appealing to someone who has immigrated from overseas.

This, and a huge amount of goodwill from other UK workers who believe in the NHS has kept it going in spite of ridiculous abuse for a number of years.

[Ozyhibby]

So we all agreed that all 4 health services in the UK are failing and that the Scottish one is failing a bit less than the others.
Maybe if the Scottish govt had full control of taxation in Scotland we could maybe fund the reforms and improvements that is required?
Until then they are stuck with the constraints set by the uk.


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[RyeSloan]

So we all agreed that all 4 health services in the UK are failing and that the Scottish one is failing a bit less than the others.
Maybe if the Scottish govt had full control of taxation in Scotland we could maybe fund the reforms and improvements that is required?
Until then they are stuck with the constraints set by the uk.


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Ahh that old chestnut...wondered when it would land again.

NHS Scotland spending has been going up well ahead of inflation for years. Health is scheduled to head towards 50% of the SG budget soon enough. Any indication of how much more or less would be available in an Indy Scotland?!?

The recent report on the NHS by audit Scotland (oddly not trumpeted too much on here...I wonder why) explicitly stated that the issues and troubles faced by the service simply could be solved by spending our way out of it.

In fact it was very much focussed on the structure, management and priorities and called these out as the main reasons for its struggles while deploring the pace of change that had been applied.

[Mibbes Aye]

So we all agreed that all 4 health services in the UK are failing and that the Scottish one is failing a bit less than the others.
Maybe if the Scottish govt had full control of taxation in Scotland we could maybe fund the reforms and improvements that is required?
Until then they are stuck with the constraints set by the uk.


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Scotland has additional tax raising powers which it hasn’t used. But there is no point pouring money into a broken system.

The biggest issue is that that there is no shortage of discussion and debate about reform and improvement. But we had ridiculous policies like the council tax freeze that bribed the middle class and stripped out council services that helped the weakest. That led to more pressure on the NHS, combined with a demographic that everyone knew about.

This all happened on a lengthy SNP watch. They knew the problems and knew the politics. And they prioritised the politics.

[ronaldo7]

Surely the NHS has a pay structure that is the same for all employees, not different for immigrants!!!!

Nurses in Scotland get paid more than nurses in England. Maybe we shouldn't compare them after all.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

Scotland has additional tax raising powers which it hasn’t used. But there is no point pouring money into a broken system.

The biggest issue is that that there is no shortage of discussion and debate about reform and improvement. But we had ridiculous policies like the council tax freeze that bribed the middle class and stripped out council services that helped the weakest. That led to more pressure on the NHS, combined with a demographic that everyone knew about.

This all happened on a lengthy SNP watch. They knew the problems and knew the politics. And they prioritised the politics.

Really??

I thought Boris told us the other day that we were the highest taxed part of the UK.

How can that be if we've not used the powers?

[Mibbes Aye]

Really??

I thought Boris told us the other day that we were the highest taxed part of the UK.

How can that be if we've not used the powers?

Has the SG exercised the powers to take more tax?

[ronaldo7]

Has the SG exercised the powers to take more tax?

From the rich...Yes.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/18009367.former-labour-msp-switches-join-snp/?fbclid=IwAR3KtPkGYxaN2pIOQmN-xROSY5HDdN7kmzuiI9XWKugnv_eRJSMGHjEKtVk


A former Labour MSP has quit the party and moved to the SNP.
Glasgow Labour councillor, Anne McTaggart, who was re-elected in 2017 to represent the Anniesland and Drumchapel ward, has been thinking about leaving Labour for some time.

The Labour Party hasn’t done anything positive of note for a long time in Glasgow. Meanwhile, I’ve been watching the SNP delivering positive policies, both at a national and a city level, which are the right ones for my community.



welcome aboard :agree:

[Bristolhibby]

Why compare NHS Scotland & England? It's like comparing apples and bananas.

England has a huge population and is one of the most overcrowded countries in Europe.

The large population, more pollution, a much larger number of people migrating into England putting instant stress on NHS resources and demand compared to Scotland.

Trying to take the high ground by performing marginally better than NHS England under these circumstances seems a bit desperate by some to get one up on the English in anyway they can.

Not really overcrowded is it?

I live in Wiltshire. Bags of space down here.

J

[ronaldo7]

https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/18009367.former-labour-msp-switches-join-snp/?fbclid=IwAR3KtPkGYxaN2pIOQmN-xROSY5HDdN7kmzuiI9XWKugnv_eRJSMGHjEKtVk


A former Labour MSP has quit the party and moved to the SNP.
Glasgow Labour councillor, Anne McTaggart, who was re-elected in 2017 to represent the Anniesland and Drumchapel ward, has been thinking about leaving Labour for some time.

The Labour Party hasn’t done anything positive of note for a long time in Glasgow. Meanwhile, I’ve been watching the SNP delivering positive policies, both at a national and a city level, which are the right ones for my community.



welcome aboard :agree:

:aok::saltireflag

[Slavers]

Not really overcrowded is it?

I live in Wiltshire. Bags of space down here.

J

Yes I have a friend that lives in Wick and it's not overcrowded there either. I'm not sure what your point is?

The population per square mile stats speak for themselves even if your own personal situation is more rosey than others.

It's like me saying there is no knife crime in Bathgate, that means there is no problem with knife crime in London.

[Jack]

https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/18009367.former-labour-msp-switches-join-snp/?fbclid=IwAR3KtPkGYxaN2pIOQmN-xROSY5HDdN7kmzuiI9XWKugnv_eRJSMGHjEKtVk


A former Labour MSP has quit the party and moved to the SNP.
Glasgow Labour councillor, Anne McTaggart, who was re-elected in 2017 to represent the Anniesland and Drumchapel ward, has been thinking about leaving Labour for some time.

The Labour Party hasn’t done anything positive of note for a long time in Glasgow. Meanwhile, I’ve been watching the SNP delivering positive policies, both at a national and a city level, which are the right ones for my community.



welcome aboard :agree:

I'll bet they're doing it deliberately! To paraphrase a certain Labour politician.

[Bristolhibby]

Yes I have a friend that lives in Wick and it's not overcrowded there either. I'm not sure what your point is?

The population per square mile stats speak for themselves even if your own personal situation is more rosey than others.

It's like me saying there is no knife crime in Bathgate, that means there is no problem with knife crime in London.

Sorry you mentioned England. Point is there’s loads of space in England. That’s a fact. Singapore has a massive population per square mile. Pretty decent place to live.

J

[Slavers]

Sorry you mentioned England. Point is there’s loads of space in England. That’s a fact. Singapore has a massive population per square mile. Pretty decent place to live.

J

Don't you ever think that by constantly expanding cities and towns that it may put pressure on public services?

I'm guessing your going to say no there is no link to be had.

Constantly seeking population growth through migration then it surely impacts on the environment. More people, more natural resources being used, more pollution less and less greenfield sites.

Why would you want to turn green and pleasant lands into Singapore?

[Ozyhibby]

Don't you ever think that by constantly expanding cities and towns that it may put pressure on public services?

I'm guessing your going to say no there is no link to be had.

Constantly seeking population growth through migration then it surely impacts on the environment. More people, more natural resources being used, more pollution less and less greenfield sites.

Why would you want to turn green and pleasant lands into Singapore?

I’m pretty sure city living is a more greener more sustainable way of living.


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[Slavers]

I’m pretty sure city living is a more greener more sustainable way of living.


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Tell that to the wildlife that have their homes destroyed by building on greenfield sites and expanding cities that it is a greener way to live.

Or those humans facing shorter life's due to inner city pollution levels or the large amount of homeless people in cities.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Tell that to the wildlife whose homes are destroyed by building on greenfield sites and expanding cities that it is a greener way to live.

Or those humans facing shorter life's due to inner city pollution levels or the large amount of homeless people in cities.



but would the wildlife listen :confused:




but anyway, what would be your solution to the pollution ?

[Bristolhibby]

Don't you ever think that by constantly expanding cities and towns that it may put pressure on public services?

I'm guessing your going to say no there is no link to be had.

Constantly seeking population growth through migration then it surely impacts on the environment. More people, more natural resources being used, more pollution less and less greenfield sites.

Why would you want to turn green and pleasant lands into Singapore?

Yes, but we are nowhere near being a city island. Miles off. Plenty of green and pleasant land and plenty of space for more people with more capital contributing more to society.

Its a perpetual myth that we are “full up”. It’s not Mad Max down here. Resources are just being squirreld into the wrong places. Moving away from the centre mass of South East is essential.

The lot I work for moved away from London in the 90s. Massive employment brought to Bristol and the fringe benefits to the wider areas (I bought a house, live and spend my money in Chippenham).

J