SNP nonsense

[heretoday]

If my lad was getting texts from a guy like that I don't think my first port of call would be the Sun or any other newspaper, unless I was desperate for cash.

There is a police force in this country - not perfect but serviceable.

There are councillors and MPs too who could have put a stop to this activity.

Another problem with going to the papers is that they keep you under wraps until they've exhausted your marketability and then drop you.

Then it's open house on you and your family for all the other papers whom you didn't contact. Be careful what you wish for.

[G B Young]

I don’t mean to dismiss this, just to point out that there probably hasn’t been a drastically awful impact on who is being described as a victim.

A fair bit of that can be attributed to the young lad’s decent handling of the situation though. Had he ever met up with MacKay (as MacKay clearly wanted) then that might be a totally different story, so MacKay’s behaviour is still inexcusable.

And I doubt Sturgeon is going to stop banging on about independence any time soon.

I note that Mackay has a son just a year younger than the boy in question. Did he ever stop to think how he'd have felt if his son was receiving that sort of unwarranted and unwanted attention from a man nearly three times his age?

Herald suggesting this is an issue which would prove a tipping point for the SNP:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18221998.analysis-derek-mackay-scandal-mark-beginning-end-snp/

[Smartie]

I note that Mackay has a son just a year younger than the boy in question. Did he ever stop to think how he'd have felt if his son was receiving that sort of unwarranted and unwanted attention from a man nearly three times his age?

Herald suggesting this is an issue which would prove a tipping point for the SNP:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18221998.analysis-derek-mackay-scandal-mark-beginning-end-snp/

I don't think any right minded person can defend MacKay or his actions and I don't know how much "but you've got a son roughly the young chap's age" stuff really adds to the debate. He was wrong, his actions are inexcusable and he will pay a price.

Article like that are Unionist porn. You can get off on the message in it all you like, I'd be surprised if anyone's views on independence change just because a sexual predator within the party has been exposed, that isn't to totally dismiss that the SNP themselves are having some issues at present after it all being in a positive direction for quite a long time.

Did you change your views on the Union when Ross Thomson was grabbing ballbags and Tory MP's were dying with polythene bags on their heads and oranges stuffed in orifices? I would be surprised if you did.

And ultimately, that is what is important here.

[Ozyhibby]

I note that Mackay has a son just a year younger than the boy in question. Did he ever stop to think how he'd have felt if his son was receiving that sort of unwarranted and unwanted attention from a man nearly three times his age?

Herald suggesting this is an issue which would prove a tipping point for the SNP:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18221998.analysis-derek-mackay-scandal-mark-beginning-end-snp/

About 8 weeks on from the SNP taking 80% of Scottish seats that article seems to think they are finished. [emoji23]
None of the issues mentioned will move a single vote. Our NHS is run better than any other in the UK. Education need improving but ask parents and they all seem to be happy with their own kids school and are delighted not to have to pay for university so no joy there. Most folk will not even know who Derek Mackay was and will note the SNP handled it perfectly.
It’s a complete fantasy article to boost unionist morale and bears no relation to reality.


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[RyeSloan]

About 8 weeks on from the SNP taking 80% of Scottish seats that article seems to think they are finished. [emoji23]
None of the issues mentioned will move a single vote. Our NHS is run better than any other in the UK. Education need improving but ask parents and they all seem to be happy with their own kids school and are delighted not to have to pay for university so no joy there. Most folk will not even know who Derek Mackay was and will note the SNP handled it perfectly.
It’s a complete fantasy article to boost unionist morale and bears no relation to reality.


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Is it possible to critique the SNP without being called a unionist?

I suppose the following is nothing to be concerned about and just more BBC bias?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-51426402

[Cataplana]

Is it possible to critique the SNP without being called a unionist?

I suppose the following is nothing to be concerned about and just more BBC bias?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-51426402

It helps if your criticism is distributed evenly between parties, and you occasionally give praise when it's due.

[Ozyhibby]

Is it possible to critique the SNP without being called a unionist?

I suppose the following is nothing to be concerned about and just more BBC bias?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-51426402

There are lots of things to criticise the SNP on, or any other govt for that matter. None of the things in that article are going to move any votes though.
The constitution is the dominant issue in Scottish politics. Many wish it wasn’t but it is and that is not changing any time soon. The current constitutional settlement is not working and until it’s changed other issues will be taking a back seat. The stonewalling of a 2nd ref seems to be strengthening the Yes support.
A health service or education scored slightly better or slightly worse are never going to knock the constitution of top spot.


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[lapsedhibee]

About 8 weeks on from the SNP taking 80% of Scottish seats that article seems to think they are finished.

Nicola Sturgeon is on her way out. Party members who once idolised her are starting to despair about the lack of any serious shift in support for independence. The Tories fought the last election on a pledge to refuse any request for another referendum, which Boris Johnson has duly done. So Ms Sturgeon finds herself out of road. Last week she all but admitted as much, saying that there can be no "shortcuts or clever wheezes" (such as a Catalan-style protest referendum). Any move to independence, she said, must be legal. That is to say: Westminster-approved. To many nationalists, this is defeatism.

That's the take of an English pundit (Fraser Nelson, Telegraph) who's regularly invited on to BBC current affairs programmes to spout his expertise. Nicola Sturgeon is on her way out.

[Ozyhibby]

Nicola Sturgeon is on her way out. Party members who once idolised her are starting to despair about the lack of any serious shift in support for independence. The Tories fought the last election on a pledge to refuse any request for another referendum, which Boris Johnson has duly done. So Ms Sturgeon finds herself out of road. Last week she all but admitted as much, saying that there can be no "shortcuts or clever wheezes" (such as a Catalan-style protest referendum). Any move to independence, she said, must be legal. That is to say: Westminster-approved. To many nationalists, this is defeatism.

That's the take of an English pundit (Fraser Nelson, Telegraph) who's regularly invited on to BBC current affairs programmes to spout his expertise. Nicola Sturgeon is on her way out.

Nelson is Scottish I’m sure. He’s the poshest person on the the planet and I’m sure he wishes the SNP were finished but unfortunately for him they are as popular as ever.


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[G B Young]

Nelson is Scottish I’m sure. He’s the poshest person on the the planet and I’m sure he wishes the SNP were finished but unfortunately for him they are as popular as ever.


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Definitely Scottish and I'm not sure he's genuinely 'posh'. Think he worked for the Scotsman or was maybe a presenter on Reporting Scotland. I definitely remember seeing him on a news item a few years back which was being broadcast from a Rosyth dockyard pub where he once worked behind the bar. He had a posh accent for sure, but seemed to be warmly enough regarded by the punters there.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nelson is Scottish I’m sure. He’s the poshest person on the the planet and I’m sure he wishes the SNP were finished but unfortunately for him they are as popular as ever.


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He is. His Auntie’s in the SNP.

[JeMeSouviens]

Definitely Scottish and I'm not sure he's genuinely 'posh'. Think he worked for the Scotsman or was maybe a presenter on Reporting Scotland. I definitely remember seeing him on a news item a few years back which was being broadcast from a Rosyth dockyard pub where he once worked behind the bar. He had a posh accent for sure, but seemed to be warmly enough regarded by the punters there.

Dollar academy. Pretty posh.

[danhibees1875]

How does passing the budget work (I think the vote is this week?)?

Going by a brief clip I seen today representatives for Tories, Labour, Lib dem, and Greens all said the budget fell short of what they were looking for to the point where they couldn't approve it. They all wanted more money for X, Y, or Z.

Does anyone who follows the process a bit closer than myself know if that's just a lot of posturing and they'll approve it as is/with minor tinkering? Or what happens after that?

[JeMeSouviens]

How does passing the budget work (I think the vote is this week?)?

Going by a brief clip I seen today representatives for Tories, Labour, Lib dem, and Greens all said the budget fell short of what they were looking for to the point where they couldn't approve it. They all wanted more money for X, Y, or Z.

Does anyone who follows the process a bit closer than myself know if that's just a lot of posturing and they'll approve it as is/with minor tinkering? Or what happens after that?

Yes, most likely the SNP will offer some concessions and someone will support it.

[Ozyhibby]

How does passing the budget work (I think the vote is this week?)?

Going by a brief clip I seen today representatives for Tories, Labour, Lib dem, and Greens all said the budget fell short of what they were looking for to the point where they couldn't approve it. They all wanted more money for X, Y, or Z.

Does anyone who follows the process a bit closer than myself know if that's just a lot of posturing and they'll approve it as is/with minor tinkering? Or what happens after that?

The way it works in the Scottish Parliament is actually quite good. If you want to do a deal to spend money then you have to say where in the budget you want to cut money from.
If the opposition parties refuse to pass the budget then they will likely force an early election. I don’t think any of them want that just now so a deal will be done.


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[RyeSloan]

How does passing the budget work (I think the vote is this week?)?

Going by a brief clip I seen today representatives for Tories, Labour, Lib dem, and Greens all said the budget fell short of what they were looking for to the point where they couldn't approve it. They all wanted more money for X, Y, or Z.

Does anyone who follows the process a bit closer than myself know if that's just a lot of posturing and they'll approve it as is/with minor tinkering? Or what happens after that?

Currently the situation is that the SNP throw the Greens a crumb from the table and it’s passed....

That said I don’t think I’ve seen the opposition parties ever really put forward a definitive counter position. They will pick a favourite single topic and demand more money for it and that’s seems the limit of their ambition.

I’d like to see some proper forensic analysis and counter proposal as well as a good dose of challenge on effectiveness and outcomes of the spending but I think I’ll be a waiting a loooong time for any such rigour from any of them.

[danhibees1875]

Thanks for the responses. :aok:



I’d like to see some proper forensic analysis and counter proposal as well as a good dose of challenge on effectiveness and outcomes of the spending but I think I’ll be a waiting a loooong time for any such rigour from any of them.

:agree:

I think that's a general theme in politics and it irks me. I'd like to see that and more quantifiable manifestos which are tracked and reflected upon ahead of the next election. Never seems to happen in any meaningful sort of way when it feels like such a basic principle of governance. :dunno:

[G B Young]

I don’t mean to dismiss this, just to point out that there probably hasn’t been a drastically awful impact on who is being described as a victim.

A fair bit of that can be attributed to the young lad’s decent handling of the situation though. Had he ever met up with MacKay (as MacKay clearly wanted) then that might be a totally different story, so MacKay’s behaviour is still inexcusable.

And I doubt Sturgeon is going to stop banging on about independence any time soon.

I think we can guarantee she won't. But it's certainly taken a back seat for the last few days at least...in fact I was thinking while watching the news last night about how pleasant (if that's the right word bearing in mind we appear to have a deadly virus on the cusp of wiping us all out) it is to be back to watching 'normal' news after Brexit suffocating the agenda for years. Storms, disease, the Oscars and a bit of old fashioned sleaze thanks to Mackay...that's more like it.

[G B Young]

Is it possible to critique the SNP without being called a unionist?

I suppose the following is nothing to be concerned about and just more BBC bias?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-51426402 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-51426402)

Not really. Any implication that their record in government is all smoke and mirrors cloaked by keeping independence front and centre and that's you damned as a pesky unionist.

[lapsedhibee]

I’d like to see some proper forensic analysis and counter proposal as well as a good dose of challenge on effectiveness and outcomes of the spending but I think I’ll be a waiting a loooong time for any such rigour from any of them.

Rigour in the media too would be welcome. The Politics Scotland show had the Depute/y Leader of the SNP on yesterday and Gordon Brewer spent a good chunk of the available time begging for a soundbite about Derek Mackay. Even after Brown had given his unambiguous opinion, Brewer continued begging, more or less 'Yes you've given me your view but I want something more soundbitey'. Cringeworthy. Sure enough on the BBC news bulletins later, up pops the soundbite. MSM coverage of politics, Westminster and Holyrood, is embarrassingly bad.

[grunt]

...in fact I was thinking while watching the news last night about how pleasant ... it is to be back to watching 'normal' news after Brexit suffocating the agenda for years. Storms, disease, the Oscars and a bit of old fashioned sleaze thanks to Mackay...that's more like it.

You're a godsend for this uk government who doesn't want anyone paying any attention to what they're up to. So they take brexit off the news and away from the media, mps aren't even allowed to say the word now. Which means they can get on with ruining the economy and implementing their fascist far right agenda without anyone noticing. We really do seem to get the government we deserve. God help us all.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think we can guarantee she won't. But it's certainly taken a back seat for the last few days at least...in fact I was thinking while watching the news last night about how pleasant (if that's the right word bearing in mind we appear to have a deadly virus on the cusp of wiping us all out) it is to be back to watching 'normal' news after Brexit suffocating the agenda for years. Storms, disease, the Oscars and a bit of old fashioned sleaze thanks to Mackay...that's more like it.

Well, to be fair, you haven't. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

Not really. Any implication that their record in government is all smoke and mirrors cloaked by keeping independence front and centre and that's you damned as a pesky unionist.

You keep going on about the SNP record in govt. Where is the alternative being offered? What policies of Jackson Carlaw do you think are most likely to turn it round? What is it about Richard Leonard that make you think that he will turn Scotland around? Maybe it’s Willie Rennie you think has the policy chops to take us to a bright new dawn?
Fact is that when it comes to the NHS the SNP are running it better than the Tories are in England and a lot better than Labour are in Wales.
So you can carry on complaining about the easy ride they get but you offer zero in the way of solutions. They get an easy ride because there is no opposition policies to vote for.
And one of the reasons for that is that the Scottish Parliament has very little power. A policy platform of making little administrative changes here and there isn’t going to move many votes.
The constitution is the only show in town and on that you represent the status quo while at the same time telling people it’s terrible. Tricky.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Not really. Any implication that their record in government is all smoke and mirrors cloaked by keeping independence front and centre and that's you damned as a pesky unionist.

It's quite simple really. If you don't want or believe in Independence then you are a unionist.

[One Day Soon]

It's quite simple really. If you don't want or believe in Independence then you are a unionist.


I think that's a little simplistic because there are also people in the middle who are not sure whether they think independence or the status quo is the best course.

However if you are in favour of the Union you are certainly a unionist just as anyone in favour of independence is a nationalist (though some of those seem very coy about that fact).

I suspect what he was really getting at is that criticism of the SNP/Nikla almost invariably results in accusations of being a unionist. It is, after all, far easier to go down that 'othering' path than to engage with the substance.

[Ozyhibby]

I think that's a little simplistic because there are also people in the middle who are not sure whether they think independence or the status quo is the best course.

However if you are in favour of the Union you are certainly a unionist just as anyone in favour of independence is a nationalist (though some of those seem very coy about that fact).

I suspect what he was really getting at is that criticism of the SNP/Nikla almost invariably results in accusations of being a unionist. It is, after all, far easier to go down that 'othering' path than to engage with the substance.

I would admit to being coy about being a nationalist. Thinking that the uk Union is disfunctional doesn’t mean I’m not open to it being reformed with more autonomy given to the Scottish Parliament. However nobody is offering that so I support independence.



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[One Day Soon]

I would admit to being coy about being a nationalist. Thinking that the uk Union is disfunctional doesn’t mean I’m not open to it being reformed with more autonomy given to the Scottish Parliament. However nobody is offering that so I support independence.



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A provisional nationalist then...unless and until something else more attractive comes along.

[Ozyhibby]

A provisional nationalist then...unless and until something else more attractive comes along.

A provo?[emoji51][emoji23]


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[One Day Soon]

A provo?[emoji51][emoji23]


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It could be worse, you could be a bigotted Uncle Tom traitorous Quisling like me :agree:.

[Ozyhibby]

It could be worse, you could be a bigotted Uncle Tom traitorous Quisling like me :agree:.

[emoji23]


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[Smartie]

I think that's a little simplistic because there are also people in the middle who are not sure whether they think independence or the status quo is the best course.

However if you are in favour of the Union you are certainly a unionist just as anyone in favour of independence is a nationalist (though some of those seem very coy about that fact).

I suspect what he was really getting at is that criticism of the SNP/Nikla almost invariably results in accusations of being a unionist. It is, after all, far easier to go down that 'othering' path than to engage with the substance.

I absolutely hate the divisive nature of a debate that has 2 pigeonholes - nationalist and unionist. It is totally unrepresentative of the reality, it does nothing to try to win people over to the other side and helps keep us all in a position of stalemate.

That is spoken from the point of view of a "nationalist" who really doesn't like to think of himself as one.

[JeMeSouviens]

I would admit to being coy about being a nationalist. Thinking that the uk Union is disfunctional doesn’t mean I’m not open to it being reformed with more autonomy given to the Scottish Parliament. However nobody is offering that so I support independence.



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So would I because if you look up "nationalist" in a dictionary you get:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nationalist


nationalist
noun [ C ] POLITICS
UK /ˈnæʃ.ən.əl.ɪst/ /ˈnæʃ.nə.lɪst/ US /ˈnæʃ.ən.əl.ɪst/ /ˈnæʃ.nə.lɪst/

a person who wants their country to be politically independent

a person who strongly believes their country is better than others


The second meaning is usually implied if not stated by opponents of Scottish independence (who ironically are often among the worst offenders in believing their country is better than others, just that it's Britain so that's ok :rolleyes:).

[Hibrandenburg]

I absolutely hate the divisive nature of a debate that has 2 pigeonholes - nationalist and unionist. It is totally unrepresentative of the reality, it does nothing to try to win people over to the other side and helps keep us all in a position of stalemate.

That is spoken from the point of view of a "nationalist" who really doesn't like to think of himself as one.

I've no problem thinking of myself as a Scottish Nationalist, however after independence was gained I would probably consider myself a socialist of the non nationalist variety. I see a big difference between both definitions of nationalism.

Unfortunately there are only the 2 pigeon holes in this debate. Either you'd vote for Independence and hence a nationalist or you'd vote for the union or not vote for independence because you're unsure which way to go, both of the latter options means that you're either pro union or happy with the status quo and unless anything else appears on the ballot that means pro union.

[G B Young]

You're a godsend for this uk government who doesn't want anyone paying any attention to what they're up to. So they take brexit off the news and away from the media, mps aren't even allowed to say the word now. Which means they can get on with ruining the economy and implementing their fascist far right agenda without anyone noticing. We really do seem to get the government we deserve. God help us all.

Governments don't control the news agenda, unless you live in a dictatorship. If they did then the Derek Mackay story would have been suppressed, to cite a recent example of a government being rebuffed when trying to quash a story that didn't suit them. The reason Brexit doesn't dominate the news any more is because it's of little news value at present now that we've finally left the EU.

Nor do we live under a fascist regime despite what the Sex Pistols claimed - and even they were only looking for word to sing that rhymed with Queen.

[Cataplana]

Rigour in the media too would be welcome. The Politics Scotland show had the Depute/y Leader of the SNP on yesterday and Gordon Brewer spent a good chunk of the available time begging for a soundbite about Derek Mackay. Even after Brown had given his unambiguous opinion, Brewer continued begging, more or less 'Yes you've given me your view but I want something more soundbitey'. Cringeworthy. Sure enough on the BBC news bulletins later, up pops the soundbite. MSM coverage of politics, Westminster and Holyrood, is embarrassingly bad.

Brewer is a bit of a fool I think. What's that hairstyle all about?

[Kato]

Governments don't control the news agenda, unless you live in a dictatorship. If they did then the Derek Mackay story would have been suppressed, to cite a recent example of a government being rebuffed when trying to quash a story that didn't suit them. The reason Brexit doesn't dominate the news any more is because it's of little news value at present now that we've finally left the EU.

Nor do we live under a fascist regime despite what the Sex Pistols claimed - and even they were only looking for word to sing that rhymed with Queen.Looks like you're correct GB, Jim Traynor controls the media and police in Scotland. That's some heavy Masonic s**t went down today.

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[Just Alf]

Governments don't control the news agenda, unless you live in a dictatorship. If they did then the Derek Mackay story would have been suppressed, to cite a recent example of a government being rebuffed when trying to quash a story that didn't suit them. The reason Brexit doesn't dominate the news any more is because it's of little news value at present now that we've finally left the EU.

Nor do we live under a fascist regime despite what the Sex Pistols claimed - and even they were only looking for word to sing that rhymed with Queen.You don't think that no10 trying to exclude reporters that represent news papers/programs which had previously been critical is an attempt at controlling the agenda?


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[JeMeSouviens]

Governments don't control the news agenda, unless you live in a dictatorship. If they did then the Derek Mackay story would have been suppressed, to cite a recent example of a government being rebuffed when trying to quash a story that didn't suit them. The reason Brexit doesn't dominate the news any more is because it's of little news value at present now that we've finally left the EU.

Nor do we live under a fascist regime despite what the Sex Pistols claimed - and even they were only looking for word to sing that rhymed with Queen.

You think the Tories would allow devolution of control over the media? Think again.

ps. I see Rupert Murdoch's daughter Elisabeth is in line to be the new DG at the BBC. Nothing of concern there I'm sure!

[Cataplana]

If HS2 doesn't seal the case for independence, nothing will. Government minister last night talking about uniting "our" country and bringing prosperity to the North.

He might as well have just said, "piss off Jockos, you're not invited to this party, even if you did pay for all this lovely wine and food we will be consuming." Even the woman that tells her husband to eat her cereal must understand this one.

[One Day Soon]

If HS2 doesn't seal the case for independence, nothing will. Government minister last night talking about uniting "our" country and bringing prosperity to the North.

He might as well have just said, "piss off Jockos, you're not invited to this party, even if you did pay for all this lovely wine and food we will be consuming." Even the woman that tells her husband to eat her cereal must understand this one.


Except that we're paying zero for it and we're getting full Barnett consequentials for Scotland of 9% on the HS2 spend...

[Ozyhibby]

Except that we're paying zero for it and we're getting full Barnett consequentials for Scotland of 9% on the HS2 spend...

You sure about that?


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[danhibees1875]

Except that we're paying zero for it and we're getting full Barnett consequentials for Scotland of 9% on the HS2 spend...

Surely we're paying for a portion of it by way of most of our tax revenues going to Westminster?

Admittedly I think money going back and forth and different infrastructure projects coming from different governments confuses things a bit. This also probably allows for manipulation of the facts from people wanting to paint Westminster as either bad or good.

Barnett consequentialls are a good shout though - do they only come into play for projects that are wholly intended for England/other countries within the UK?

HS2 isn't going to reach Scotland any time soon (possibly ever), but does the line still get used to decrease the time it takes to travel from Edinburgh to London, or does it not work like that?

[One Day Soon]

You sure about that?


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Yes. Since 2016 the Department for Transport published expenditure figures have been showing a 100% Barnett consequential for Scotland for HS2. At that stage the DfT provisional spending on the project was around £760M.

[Cataplana]

Except that we're paying zero for it and we're getting full Barnett consequentials for Scotland of 9% on the HS2 spend...

Yes, but a minister of the UK government talking about uniting "our country", when that country is England, doesn't really square with their unionist claims.

If there was any pretence of uniting our country, then the line would link Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow. The UK government is not showing any concern for anyone other than England at this point.

Fair's fair, that's politics, you make sure you see your own supporters right. It's also politics for Scottish Nationalists to point out that the UK government doesn't care about Scotland.

[One Day Soon]

Yes, but a minister of the UK government talking about uniting "our country", when that country is England, doesn't really square with their unionist claims.

If there was any pretence of uniting our country, then the line would link Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow. The UK government is not showing any concern for anyone other than England at this point.

Fair's fair, that's politics, you make sure you see your own supporters right. It's also politics for Scottish Nationalists to point out that the UK government doesn't care about Scotland.


So "piss off Jockos, you're not invited to this party, even if you did pay for all this lovely wine and food we will be consuming." is just financially wrong.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes. Since 2016 the Department for Transport published expenditure figures have been showing a 100% Barnett consequential for Scotland for HS2. At that stage the DfT provisional spending on the project was around £760M.

Although, strangely, for reasons I don't understand, Wales doesn't get anything. :confused:

[danhibees1875]

Although, strangely, for reasons I don't understand, Wales doesn't get anything. :confused:

Transport infrastructure in Wales isn't devolved. Effectively this is an England and Wales project.

Read briefly about it earlier, it's going to damage their economy (apparently), be of very little use to them to use, and they pay for it.

On the face of it in comparison Scotland seems to not have to pay for it (Barnett rebate) and I think are more likely to benefit (still not sure if Edinburgh to London is actually quicker or not - but they might one day extend the line further north).

[JeMeSouviens]

Transport infrastructure in Wales isn't devolved. Effectively this is an England and Wales project.

Read briefly about it earlier, it's going to damage their economy (apparently), be of very little use to them to use, and they pay for it.

On the face of it in comparison Scotland seems to not have to pay for it (Barnett rebate) and I think are more likely to benefit (still not sure if Edinburgh to London is actually quicker or not - but they might one day extend the line further north).

Jeez, poor Wales. They get shafted by Barnett as well, although not as much as the English regions who are the real losers.

[southfieldhibby]

Yes. Since 2016 the Department for Transport published expenditure figures have been showing a 100% Barnett consequential for Scotland for HS2. At that stage the DfT provisional spending on the project was around £760M.

Will be genuinely surprised if we get a £9Billion boost off the back of HS2.

I think one of the more concerning aspects of HS2 from a Scottish point of view is the possible drain of companies south to be located on it's route. Irrespective of cost, it looks like a terrific project.

[grunt]

Governments don't control the news agenda, unless you live in a dictatorship.
You have got to be kidding me. If you can't see that Johnson is managing the news agenda through control of right wing newspapers, influence over BBC programming and flooding social media then you've simply not been paying attention and i suspect you'll not listen to me.

The reason Brexit doesn't dominate the news any more is because it's of little news value at present now that we've finally left the EU.LOL! Now I know that you're joking. You have completely swallowed the Tory line. Hook, line and sinker. They must love having supporters like you.

[JeMeSouviens]

You have got to be kidding me. If you can't see that Johnson is managing the news agenda through control of right wing newspapers, influence over BBC programming and flooding social media then you've simply not been paying attention and i suspect you'll not listen to me.
LOL! Now I know that you're joking. You have completely swallowed the Tory line. Hook, line and sinker. They must love having supporters like you.

I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong but GBY was a remainer who is supporting the Tories because of prioritising opposing Scottish independence over opposing Brexit. As such, if you're already swallowing something you don't like to combat something you perceive as a greater evil, then you've just got to ignore the lot I suppose?

[JeMeSouviens]

Will be genuinely surprised if we get a £9Billion boost off the back of HS2.

I think one of the more concerning aspects of HS2 from a Scottish point of view is the possible drain of companies south to be located on it's route. Irrespective of cost, it looks like a terrific project.

HS2 will suck yet more economic activity to London as it effectively extends London's commuter belt all the way out past Brum. I would've thought Scotland is too far for that to have too much impact on us? It'll mainly hurt the Brexit supporting towns in the English midlands. You know, the ones the Tories are supposed to be "levelling up". :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

Except that we're paying zero for it and we're getting full Barnett consequentials for Scotland of 9% on the HS2 spend...

Tax payers are paying for some of it, including tax payers in Scotland.

[CloudSquall]

I think unionists like Kevin Hague now argue that it is best for Scotland that London sucks up all investment and economic activity and we sit back and live off of subsidies, sorry, fiscal transfers.

[CloudSquall]

A bit dated but a KPMG report found that Aberdeenshire, Aberdeen City and Moray stand to lose 220m due to HS2, Dundee and Angus 96m

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24589652

[danhibees1875]

A bit dated but a KPMG report found that Aberdeenshire, Aberdeen City and Moray stand to lose 220m due to HS2, Dundee and Angus 96m

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24589652

That might have been calculated on the assumption that the line was going to Edinburgh/Glasgow.

The estimated £17bn! How does something go quite that far over budget?? :dizzy:

[Cataplana]

That might have been calculated on the assumption that the line was going to Edinburgh/Glasgow.

The estimated £17bn! How does something go quite that far over budget?? :dizzy:

Usually because the people signing off the job have no idea what they are agreeing to.

[Bostonhibby]

That might have been calculated on the assumption that the line was going to Edinburgh/Glasgow.

The estimated £17bn! How does something go quite that far over budget?? :dizzy:Chris Grayling was involved, I'm surprised the overrun isn't bigger and that he hasn't bought some non existent ferries to run on the rail track.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

I think unionists like Kevin Hague now argue that it is best for Scotland that London sucks up all investment and economic activity and we sit back and live off of subsidies, sorry, fiscal transfers.

I think that is a big plank of Tory strategy. I think the long term idea is make Scotland's economy so poor that independence is so economically frightening that support recedes. Then they can slash and burn the subsidies, sorry fiscal transfers. Which will be done with relish!

[greenlex]

That might have been calculated on the assumption that the line was going to Edinburgh/Glasgow.

The estimated £17bn! How does something go quite that far over budget?? :dizzy:
Definitely the now confirmed HS2 to Manchester and Leeds. White line on the map. I’m surprised it took a freedom of information request to come to light rather than part of the main benefit trumpeting.:rolleyes:
I remember watching a programme about HS1/2. Some of the biggest poorly calculated costs were the purchase orders for properties along the line. They were vastly underestimated.

[One Day Soon]

I think that is a big plank of Tory strategy. I think the long term idea is make Scotland's economy so poor that independence is so economically frightening that support recedes. Then they can slash and burn the subsidies, sorry fiscal transfers. Which will be done with relish!


Really? What's your evidence for that?

[JeMeSouviens]

Really? What's your evidence for that?

Since when did I need evidence on an internet forum? :wink:

[Kato]

Really? What's your evidence for that?There is no incarnation of the Tory party that would shy away from such tactics, the 80's and the austerity of the last decade is enough evidence of that surely.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

Really? What's your evidence for that?

The joy that a deficit in the annual GERS figures generates in Tories across Scotland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

So no evidence at all then?

[One Day Soon]

Since when did I need evidence on an internet forum? :wink:

It's a little too tin-foil hatted for you JMS.

[JeMeSouviens]

So no evidence at all then?

So, there are 2 parts:

1. that Scottish Tories would rather the Scottish economy did badly
2. that UK Tories would scrap (or heavily reform and I think we can guess in which direction) the Barnett formula were support for Scottish independence to recede


Evidence for 1 is to be found in gleeful mugshots of Murdo & co whenever there is a negative stat to get excited about.
Evidence for 2 is that Tories who don't have to worry about independence repeatedly call for it. Johnson called Cameron's 2014 vow to protect the current Barnett setup "reckless" and he is on record calling for reform right up until he stood for the Tory leadership when he had a sudden change of heart (aye right).

I accept these are pieces of circumstantial evidence but I am allowed to put 2+2 together if they look like coming up with 4 to me!

[One Day Soon]

So, there are 2 parts:

1. that Scottish Tories would rather the Scottish economy did badly
2. that UK Tories would scrap (or heavily reform and I think we can guess in which direction) the Barnett formula were support for Scottish independence to recede


Evidence for 1 is to be found in gleeful mugshots of Murdo & co whenever there is a negative stat to get excited about.
Evidence for 2 is that Tories who don't have to worry about independence repeatedly call for it. Johnson called Cameron's 2014 vow to protect the current Barnett setup "reckless" and he is on record calling for reform right up until he stood for the Tory leadership when he had a sudden change of heart (aye right).

I accept these are pieces of circumstantial evidence but I am allowed to put 2+2 together if they look like coming up with 4 to me!


That's barely even circumstantial.

If the Tories have a plan to impoverish Scotland's economy they're either hiding it very well because there are literally no signs of it or alternatively they're just 5hit at achieving it. If they were about this as a policy Scotland's financial settlement wouldn't see more being spent than is raised in taxes and the Barnett formula would be under review.

I have an emotional attachment to the UK and I have a financial/practical attachment to the UK. Weaken the latter with facts and evidence and I'd probably be willing to compromise on the former because it would be in Scotland's interests to do so.

But bringing made-up pish to the table - such as the suggestion about Kevin Hague posted elsewhere in the thread - makes me less and less likely to compromise because it paints a picture of how so many nats and proto-nats really think, what really informs their views and what that would look like in a post-independence Scotland. It's an allergic reaction to factual evidence - the tartanised version of Michael Gove's "we've had enough of experts" when discussing Brexit.

I apologise if this comes across as personally aggressive, it's not meant to be. I'm just way beyond the point now of accepting the flag-draped substitute for logic, reason and evidence based argument that we are consistently seeing from nationalism's standard bearers - whether it's MAGA, Get Brexit Done or Independence.

'Just go for it, it will be fine somehow' wasn't a good plan for Brexit and it doesn't feel like much of a plan for independence.

[Bristolhibby]

So, there are 2 parts:

1. that Scottish Tories would rather the Scottish economy did badly
2. that UK Tories would scrap (or heavily reform and I think we can guess in which direction) the Barnett formula were support for Scottish independence to recede


Evidence for 1 is to be found in gleeful mugshots of Murdo & co whenever there is a negative stat to get excited about.
Evidence for 2 is that Tories who don't have to worry about independence repeatedly call for it. Johnson called Cameron's 2014 vow to protect the current Barnett setup "reckless" and he is on record calling for reform right up until he stood for the Tory leadership when he had a sudden change of heart (aye right).

I accept these are pieces of circumstantial evidence but I am allowed to put 2+2 together if they look like coming up with 4 to me!

Reads like evidence to me!

👍

[One Day Soon]

Reads like evidence to me!

👍

May you never be a juror in that case.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's barely even circumstantial.

If the Tories have a plan to impoverish Scotland's economy they're either hiding it very well because there are literally no signs of it or alternatively they're just 5hit at achieving it. If they were about this as a policy Scotland's financial settlement wouldn't see more being spent than is raised in taxes and the Barnett formula would be under review.

I have an emotional attachment to the UK and I have a financial/practical attachment to the UK. Weaken the latter with facts and evidence and I'd probably be willing to compromise on the former because it would be in Scotland's interests to do so.

But bringing made-up pish to the table - such as the suggestion about Kevin Hague posted elsewhere in the thread - makes me less and less likely to compromise because it paints a picture of how so many nats and proto-nats really think, what really informs their views and what that would look like in a post-independence Scotland. It's an allergic reaction to factual evidence - the tartanised version of Michael Gove's "we've had enough of experts" when discussing Brexit.

I apologise if this comes across as personally aggressive, it's not meant to be. I'm just way beyond the point now of accepting the flag-draped substitute for logic, reason and evidence based argument that we are consistently seeing from nationalism's standard bearers - whether it's MAGA, Get Brexit Done or Independence.

'Just go for it, it will be fine somehow' wasn't a good plan for Brexit and it doesn't feel like much of a plan for independence.

It's not in the Tories interest to impoverish Scotland's economy, however making Scotland dependent on UK handouts would go a long way to ensuring the future of the union.

[CloudSquall]

Why, whenever GERS is released, are we not hearing from unionists or the UK government about how the deficit is going to be reduced? Where is the strategy?

In every...single...other... country there would be communication such as "here's the deficit, this is what we are going to do to increase economic growth / increase tax intake / reduce spending etc"


Every single year GERS is released, all I see from unionists is a circle jerk about fiscal transfers.



Could you honestly imagine the reaction in Norway, Austria, Portugal if the response to a deficit was "well thank **** for those fiscal transfers from "insert bigger neighbour here".


I can understand people voting no if they don't believe there is a viable economic argument for voting yes, however I can't understand why "fiscal transfers from London" is accepted as a long term economic strategy.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's barely even circumstantial.

If the Tories have a plan to impoverish Scotland's economy they're either hiding it very well because there are literally no signs of it or alternatively they're just 5hit at achieving it. If they were about this as a policy Scotland's financial settlement wouldn't see more being spent than is raised in taxes and the Barnett formula would be under review.

I have an emotional attachment to the UK and I have a financial/practical attachment to the UK. Weaken the latter with facts and evidence and I'd probably be willing to compromise on the former because it would be in Scotland's interests to do so.

But bringing made-up pish to the table - such as the suggestion about Kevin Hague posted elsewhere in the thread - makes me less and less likely to compromise because it paints a picture of how so many nats and proto-nats really think, what really informs their views and what that would look like in a post-independence Scotland. It's an allergic reaction to factual evidence - the tartanised version of Michael Gove's "we've had enough of experts" when discussing Brexit.

I apologise if this comes across as personally aggressive, it's not meant to be. I'm just way beyond the point now of accepting the flag-draped substitute for logic, reason and evidence based argument that we are consistently seeing from nationalism's standard bearers - whether it's MAGA, Get Brexit Done or Independence.

'Just go for it, it will be fine somehow' wasn't a good plan for Brexit and it doesn't feel like much of a plan for independence.


My favourite one from "our" side is the graphic about the relative sizes of Scotland's "deficit" vs the UK deficit. Politics by and aimed at the arithmetically challenged. :greengrin

To be fair, as I believe you yourself have pointed out vis a vis bridges, there's plenty of pishy propaganda from both sides and the lesson of the Brexit ref is that you win if you can make your pish more simplistic than the other side's. :rolleyes:

The thing about Barnett is that we're in a kind of phony war situation. It's unfair, anyone that looks at it objectively would concede that, and Scotland disproportionately benefits. But the UK gov has kept it going as a bribe and without the unfairness, the notional "deficit" would be gone at a stroke. Does anyone doubt Yes would win a ref in those circumstances? So, they keep it going hoping independence support will go away somehow and they can sort it out later. I find it hard to see where the long term strategy of someone like yourself sits. How are you going to keep indy support high enough to protect Barnett but not so high as to actually provoke independence?

The corollary, 'just stay and it will all work out somehow', doesn't seem that attractive either tbh. We are at the mercy of others. I'd prefer agency any time, even if the starting position is not where I'd like to be.

[JeMeSouviens]

Why, whenever GERS is released, are we not hearing from unionists or the UK government about how the deficit is going to be reduced? Where is the strategy?

In every...single...other... country there would be communication such as "here's the deficit, this is what we are going to do to increase economic growth / increase tax intake / reduce spending etc"


Every single year GERS is released, all I see from unionists is a circle jerk about fiscal transfers.



Could you honestly imagine the reaction in Norway, Austria, Portugal if the response to a deficit was "well thank **** for those fiscal transfers from "insert bigger neighbour here".


I can understand people voting no if they don't believe there is a viable economic argument for voting yes, however I can't understand why "fiscal transfers from London" is accepted as a long term economic strategy.

It would be almost impossible.

Barnett is based on population multipliers that are way out of date because England's population has grown much faster than ours.

So, Scotland is guaranteed 116% of UK average per-capita spending. Not because the Scottish government chooses to spend that much. The UK chooses how much it spends and the multiplication is automatic. Admittedly it's true that the Scottish government could underspend and hand the rest back, but how popular would that be?

To erase the "deficit" therefore, Scottish revenues would have to increase to 116% of the UK average (per-capita). In the midst of an oil boom this actually happened. But the rest of the time, with little economic control, it's an extremely tall order.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's barely even circumstantial.

If the Tories have a plan to impoverish Scotland's economy they're either hiding it very well because there are literally no signs of it or alternatively they're just 5hit at achieving it. If they were about this as a policy Scotland's financial settlement wouldn't see more being spent than is raised in taxes and the Barnett formula would be under review.

I have an emotional attachment to the UK and I have a financial/practical attachment to the UK. Weaken the latter with facts and evidence and I'd probably be willing to compromise on the former because it would be in Scotland's interests to do so.

But bringing made-up pish to the table - such as the suggestion about Kevin Hague posted elsewhere in the thread - makes me less and less likely to compromise because it paints a picture of how so many nats and proto-nats really think, what really informs their views and what that would look like in a post-independence Scotland. It's an allergic reaction to factual evidence - the tartanised version of Michael Gove's "we've had enough of experts" when discussing Brexit.

I apologise if this comes across as personally aggressive, it's not meant to be. I'm just way beyond the point now of accepting the flag-draped substitute for logic, reason and evidence based argument that we are consistently seeing from nationalism's standard bearers - whether it's MAGA, Get Brexit Done or Independence.

'Just go for it, it will be fine somehow' wasn't a good plan for Brexit and it doesn't feel like much of a plan for independence.



On reflection (and thanks for making me reflect), I'd like to amend my original post to:

"I think that a big plank of the Scottish Tory strategy is to foster the perception that Scotland's economy is so poor that independence is so economically frightening that support recedes. Then the UK Tories can slash and burn the subsidies, sorry fiscal transfers. Which will be done with relish!"

It's an interesting question as to how the Scottish Tories would approach things if they ever formed an administration at Holyrood. At peak-Ruth I think they hubristically had a notion that might happen.

[Ozyhibby]

On reflection (and thanks for making me reflect), I'd like to amend my original post to:

"I think that a big plank of the Scottish Tory strategy is to foster the perception that Scotland's economy is so poor that independence is so economically frightening that support recedes. Then the UK Tories can slash and burn the subsidies, sorry fiscal transfers. Which will be done with relish!"

It's an interesting question as to how the Scottish Tories would approach things if they ever formed an administration at Holyrood. At peak-Ruth I think they hubristically had a notion that might happen.

Unconstrained by a single policy proposal, I would imagine any Tory administration at Holyrood would be free to act as they please.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

My favourite one from "our" side is the graphic about the relative sizes of Scotland's "deficit" vs the UK deficit. Politics by and aimed at the arithmetically challenged. :greengrin

To be fair, as I believe you yourself have pointed out vis a vis bridges, there's plenty of pishy propaganda from both sides and the lesson of the Brexit ref is that you win if you can make your pish more simplistic than the other side's. :rolleyes:

The thing about Barnett is that we're in a kind of phony war situation. It's unfair, anyone that looks at it objectively would concede that, and Scotland disproportionately benefits. But the UK gov has kept it going as a bribe and without the unfairness, the notional "deficit" would be gone at a stroke. Does anyone doubt Yes would win a ref in those circumstances? So, they keep it going hoping independence support will go away somehow and they can sort it out later. I find it hard to see where the long term strategy of someone like yourself sits. How are you going to keep indy support high enough to protect Barnett but not so high as to actually provoke independence?

The corollary, 'just stay and it will all work out somehow', doesn't seem that attractive either tbh. We are at the mercy of others. I'd prefer agency any time, even if the starting position is not where I'd like to be.


Translated, this means that if the UK arrived at a spending arrangement to replace Barnett which saw Scotland only spending equivalent to what it raises in taxes then the population would think 'we're not profiting from this arrangement, let's leave'.

Firstly, that would be contrary to the whole point of the UK in pooling power and resource so it's never going to happen.

Secondly, the consequences you describe of such an action are exactly what happens on day one of independence when our deficit is cut to zero. Our choices then are to slash public spending and services by around 15% or raise taxes by a massive amount (or a mix of both) or to incur very heavy borrowing as an independent nation. The last option would a) come on top of whatever share of national debt a newly independent Scotland would take with it and b) be much more expensive to service as stand alone debt due to the weakness of our currency situation, the uncertainty over our economic strength, our position outside the EU and our inability to control interest rates. In short our debt interest rates would be very significantly higher meaning we'd be spending a lot more of our tax on servicing high cost debt and a lot less on public services.

This is why the IFS and others say that it would take ten years just to get back to the point we started at. The people who would pay the price of that decade would be the poorest, small businesses and anyone dependent upon state services.

Barnett has stood for 42 years, surviving even Thatcher's government. It doesn't seem to need protecting from anyone except those such as Andrew Wilson who were once upon a time calling for 'Full Fiscal Autonomy' which would have seen it scrapped and Scotland's public spending reduced to the taxation that Scotland raises. If it was going to be replaced it would need to be replaced with another system that reflected the cost of providing public services in Scotland, something which every report on Barnett that ever concluded it should go has explicitly acknowledged.

I wouldn't prefer agency 'any time', I'd prefer agency when it is clear that it would make things better rather than significantly worse. 'Flags' is not a coherent economic policy - from Johnson, or Trump or Sturgeon.

[ronaldo7]

Pretty decent PPB by the SNP just hit the screens. Nice to see some folk changing from No to Yes.

Change must come.

[Moulin Yarns]

Pretty decent PPB by the SNP just hit the screens. Nice to see some folk changing from No to Yes.

Change must come.

I'm just waiting on someone outing them as paid actors.

[JeMeSouviens]

Translated, this means that if the UK arrived at a spending arrangement to replace Barnett which saw Scotland only spending equivalent to what it raises in taxes then the population would think 'we're not profiting from this arrangement, let's leave'.

Firstly, that would be contrary to the whole point of the UK in pooling power and resource so it's never going to happen.

Secondly, the consequences you describe of such an action are exactly what happens on day one of independence when our deficit is cut to zero. Our choices then are to slash public spending and services by around 15% or raise taxes by a massive amount (or a mix of both) or to incur very heavy borrowing as an independent nation. The last option would a) come on top of whatever share of national debt a newly independent Scotland would take with it and b) be much more expensive to service as stand alone debt due to the weakness of our currency situation, the uncertainty over our economic strength, our position outside the EU and our inability to control interest rates. In short our debt interest rates would be very significantly higher meaning we'd be spending a lot more of our tax on servicing high cost debt and a lot less on public services.

This is why the IFS and others say that it would take ten years just to get back to the point we started at. The people who would pay the price of that decade would be the poorest, small businesses and anyone dependent upon state services.

Barnett has stood for 42 years, surviving even Thatcher's government. It doesn't seem to need protecting from anyone except those such as Andrew Wilson who were once upon a time calling for 'Full Fiscal Autonomy' which would have seen it scrapped and Scotland's public spending reduced to the taxation that Scotland raises. If it was going to be replaced it would need to be replaced with another system that reflected the cost of providing public services in Scotland, something which every report on Barnett that ever concluded it should go has explicitly acknowledged.

I wouldn't prefer agency 'any time', I'd prefer agency when it is clear that it would make things better rather than significantly worse. 'Flags' is not a coherent economic policy - from Johnson, or Trump or Sturgeon.

Come on ODS, you're much smarter than this! Pooling and sharing would see all the regions of the UK given equivalent per-capita funding (or if you think anyone could ever agree a needs-based formula, that, but they won't, far too many vested interests.) But that's not the case:

Barnett is not unfair because

ScotRevenue < ScotSpending

it's unfair because

NISpendingPerCapita > ScotSpendingPerCapita > WalesSpendingPerCapita > EngSpendingPerCapita

Wales (a bit) and the English regions (a lot except London) are getting shafted. And the reason for the discrepancies is accidental. Scotland had 9.3% of the UK population 42 years ago but only 8% now. The BF has got progressively more unfair over time. It wasn't a big problem in the Thatch years, it was ignored by Blair/Brown but since then, only the threat of indy has stopped reform.

The position is politically unsustainable in the long term and will be resolved either by independence or the UK cutting funding big time.

It will be hard under indy for the reasons you point out although I would dispute that the cost of borrowing will be exorbitant. It might be a little higher than the UK has today but borrowing is historically super cheap atm and you underestimate the effect of what remains of the oil reserve. A fiscally prudent Scotland with a clear plan of deficit reduction would have a reasonable credit rating. Also you're wrong about the IFS (who welcomed the GC as a credible contribution to the debate btw), they characterised it as a decade of standstill, ie. staying where we are now, not getting back.

Anyway, that aside, yes the indy position is tough to start from but at least there is a chance of mitigation in the short term and growth in the longer term. On the other side of the coin, if indy support drops, the Tories may cut funding with no mitigation and there will be nobody to borrow money to cushion the blows then. With Brexit promising decades of decline for the whole UK, even if I'm wrong and there is no BF adjustment, spending levels in Scotland are only going one way as part of the UK.

Oh, and I don't GAF about flags.

[Peevemor]

Decent interview with NS in the Sunday Times magazine.

“A referendum could happen this year.” Nicola Sturgeon talks independence, scandal and why she’s bolder than ever


Nicola Sturgeon on Boris Johnson, Scottish independence, scandal and sexism


The first minister talks about Alex Salmond and why she thinks a Scottish independence referendum “could happen this year”


Decca Aitkenhead


Sunday February 16 2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times


Nicola Sturgeon is still not yet 50, but seems to have been around for ever. Just a teenager when she joined the Scottish National Party (SNP), she has been a member of the Scottish parliament for more than 20 years, married to her party’s chief executive for 10, and been Scotland’s first minister for five. A permanent fixture of the UK’s constitutional landscape — which is ironic, given her sole ambition to leave it — by now she feels as familiar to me as the Queen.


Small countries are often prone to big gossip, but right now Edinburgh is in a fever of scandalous rumours that makes Game of Thrones look like Postman Pat. In large part, this is because Sturgeon’s predecessor, Alex Salmond, will stand trial next month for 14 charges of sexual offences, including attempted rape and intent to rape, against 10 women, all allegedly committed while he was first minister.


Salmond, who denies the charges, was the architect of the modern independence movement, Sturgeon his protégée, and the two were as close as political allies can be. Salmond successfully took Sturgeon’s government to court for procedural flaws in its inquiry into the allegations, and his fanatically loyal supporters are outraged that the SNP’s own website has now erased him from its history. Last year, a source close to both told the New Statesman he believes he “created” Sturgeon and “his anger towards her is quite breathtaking. He feels betrayed.” Sturgeon’s spokesperson has accused his camp of attempting to “smear” the first minister, and speculation is rife about the risk to her future from courtroom revelations and his simmering wrath.


More drama erupted last week when Sturgeon’s finance minister, Derek Mackay, resigned on the morning he was due to deliver the budget, following revelations that he had bombarded a 16-year-old boy with hundreds of inappropriate messages, telling him he was “cute”. Scottish Labour has attacked her for allowing him to resign and not firing him; the Tories are suggesting she had been aware of inappropriate conduct by Mackay for more than two years, and are demanding to be told exactly what she knew. Sturgeon has suspended his party membership and her spokesperson insists, “Both the Scottish government and SNP acted swiftly, decisively and entirely appropriately when the details of this issue came to light”.

Sturgeon seldom grants interviews to London-based press, her electoral audience being north of the border, but the independence movement is now turning its attention to Westminster because a second referendum lies in the gift of the prime minister, Boris Johnson — who has sworn blind he won’t grant one. Unless Sturgeon can change Johnson’s mind, her only option would be an unsanctioned wildcat referendum. Only last week, the senior SNP MP Joanna Cherry urged Sturgeon to “tell Johnson, ‘See you in court’.” To soothe mutinous impatience within her party, she won’t rule out “possibly, in the future, testing in the courts whether the Scottish parliament could hold, without Westminster’s agreement, a consultative referendum. But it shouldn’t come down to a courtroom battle.” Her chosen battle is for public opinion. “I don’t think Boris’s position will withstand a continued increase in support for us having the right to choose.”


So here we are in the drawing room of her official residence, Bute House. Petite even in towering stiletto heels, although girlishly tiny she is strikingly commanding, groomed to perfection in head-to-toe scarlet. Her greeting has no flashy dazzle and her posture is self-contained, but there is a quietly direct ease about her authority that feels simultaneously leaderly and relatable, and helps explain her astronomical popularity. Under her leadership, the SNP has won six successive elections, four by a margin of more than 20%. The regency grandeur in which she lives with her husband, Peter Murrell, honours their status as Scotland’s premier power couple, but contrasts starkly with her working-class, council-house origins. Her admirers rave about her gift to retain the common touch, and it’s easy to see why, for she instantly reminds me of many of the women I’ve known through my Scottish family. She comes across as doggedly determined but quite dry and instinctively self-deprecating. For example, when I ask how she has squared the circle Hillary Clinton described finding impossible — to appear both womanly and powerful — her eyes widen and she chuckles, “I’m not sure I have, really.”

[Peevemor]

If her sensibility is recognisable to Scots, to English eyes her appeal may be more of an enigma, and in her company I find myself reminded of Andy Murray. Sturgeon is a huge fan, and friends with his mother, Judy, but his lack of conventional celebrity polish often leaves English tennis lovers nonplussed. She sits very still, listens closely, and her expression is seldom animated. There’s none of the wooden coldness of Theresa May, but rather simply no hint of any compulsion to please. Not once does she deploy the classic politician’s trick of answering a different question to the one she was actually asked, or say anything that sounds like a rehearsed party line. While most MPs’ statements are increasingly calculated not to change minds but create viral clips for social media echo chambers, Sturgeon enjoys the distinction of knowing how to talk persuasively to voters who don’t already agree with her.


“I don’t think it’s only a me thing, that would be a bizarre thing to say. Is it a particular Scottish thing? Maybe. One of the things that troubles me most about the modern political debate is that it has become out of vogue to try to apply reason and logic, and have a healthy respect for facts and evidence in a debate. And I think there is something maybe quite Scottish about this. You should be passionate, and I am very passionate about what it is I want to try to achieve. But I always try to argue from quite a rational position, and I accept that people will take a different view. I hope I will always be better able to persuade people if I do it from a position of reason and logic and common sense, and taking on counterviews along the way.”


Nonetheless, more than five years after taking charge of her party she still hasn’t pushed support for independence to a viable lead — and Johnson has made it crystal clear that, as long as he is PM, there will be no referendum. Isn’t it then a waste of the Scottish government’s time to keep banging on demanding one? She smiles.


“There was a recent story that he’s about to launch this £5m taxpayer-funded advertising blitz in Scotland, about the benefits of the union. He wouldn’t be doing that if he didn’t know that, should support for independence keep rising, he can’t block the right of people in Scotland to choose. Somebody who thinks they can for ever block the choice being made wouldn’t be feeling the need to spend lots of money trying to persuade people of the choice they should make. So, for the independence movement, the challenge is clear: keep support rising.”

She cites a poll putting support for independence at 50%. Another will show, as she correctly predicts, 51%. “So things have moved.” Pretty modestly, I say. “I get the feeling that we’re at something of a tipping point on this. Now that Brexit has happened, we’ll see an acceleration of that shift.” Sturgeon’s pro-independence critics despair that she has missed the boat. She failed to exploit her party’s leverage in Westminster during the chaotic years of Tory minority government, when SNP support could have been traded for a second independence referendum. She kept promising that Brexit — and Boris — would see support for independence in Scotland soar, but no significant surge ever materialised, and now that Scots have seen just how infernally complex and divisive it is to leave Europe, will many relish the prospect of yet another ugly divorce?


“You do hear a bit of that,” Sturgeon concedes, “but it’s a false comparison.” Brexit, she says, became a “never-ending mess” because the leave campaign had no plan for how it could actually be delivered. “There was just a lie on the side of the bus. That’s why it became so chaotic. Whereas in the independence referendum we had a detailed prospectus for what would happen after the yes vote.”


I’m not sure everyone shared her faith in the yes campaign’s detailed planning for an independent Scotland — not least its currency. “Well, we’ve got to redouble our efforts. There’s a superficial tendency to assume that what drove the Brexit vote is what drives the independence vote, but they are polar opposites.”

[Peevemor]

The more she talks, the clearer it becomes that she could not be less like a Brexiteer. Whereas Nigel Farage appealed to the emotional romance of English identity, Sturgeon seems startlingly indifferent to the narcotic allure of nationalism. She doesn’t even take pleasure in seeing English sports teams lose. “Not unless it’s against Scotland.” (Mind you, when I confess that my Scottish father indoctrinated me from birth to cheer for whichever team is playing England, she doesn’t look appalled. “That’s OK, I think. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.”)


Nor does she make the kind of wild economic promises we heard in 2016 about a post-Brexit global trade bonanza. “Independence it is not a magic wand, and no country has any guarantee of prosperity. I don’t think an independent Scotland will be poorer, but I guess for any individual, when you get to a certain age and leave home, you become responsible for yourselves, and there are risks in that. If you make a mess of it, then things don’t go well.”


She sounds so measured and reasonable, I practically fall off my chair at what she says next. “A referendum can absolutely happen this year.” She thinks she can change Johnson’s mind within months? “Let’s see what happens over the next few weeks,” she smiles knowingly. I tell her I think that makes her sound quite mad. “What I think is mad, to be perfectly frank about it, is a prime minister who denies democracy,” she says. “He is a democracy denier. And while I can be impatient, I know that how he is behaving will ultimately drive people towards the independence cause. Boris Johnson is one of the biggest recruiting sergeants for independence there is at the moment.”


He’s the third PM Sturgeon has dealt with as first minister, so I’m curious about how he compares, but all she’ll say is: “They’re all different.” The only thing Sturgeon appears to have in common with Johnson is the caravan of rumours — baseless, so unprintable here — about her own private life. She says she’s heard them all, and laughs: “This sort of exotic double life that I’m supposedly leading is a damn sight more interesting than the actual life I’m leading. It does not have a scintilla of truth or basis in reality. It is just so completely off the wall.”


She has met the PM face to face just once. Did he try to win her round by making her laugh? “Probably in ways that he didn’t intend,” she says dryly. “He thinks if he bluffs and blusters and says what he’s saying in an authoritative enough voice then he can carry the day.” It has worked pretty well for him so far, hasn’t it? “We’ll see Boris Johnson come unstuck. He’s got fewer hiding places now the buck stops with him. He’s PM, he’s got a majority in the House of Commons. He’s out of the EU, so his places to point the finger are few and far between. He’s in a position where people have a right to expect him to deliver. I suspect he will find that harder than he likes to pretend.”


Precisely the same logic could be applied to Sturgeon. The performance of Scotland’s public services under her leadership is widely derided; its schools have plummeted in the global league tables, more than half its NHS is on special measures, it is the European capital of drug addiction. She retorts that the SNP’s record on public services is better than Welsh Labour’s or Tory England’s, and blames its “challenges” on Westminster’s austerity. Her opponents accuse her of using the independence campaign as a convenient distraction from her own failures, and suspect victory is secretly the last thing Sturgeon wants, because then she’d be in Johnson’s boat with no one left to blame.


“Anybody,” she laughs, “who says that doesn’t know anything about me or my party. You think independence for me is a way of avoiding responsibility for things? Then go on, call my bluff. Make my day.”


Sturgeon has been fighting for Scottish independence ever since she joined the SNP aged 16, having been radicalised, she likes to joke, by Margaret Thatcher. The eldest daughter of a dental nurse and an electrician, she studied law at Glasgow University and first stood for parliament in 1992 at just 21. She had worked on Salmond’s successful SNP leadership campaign two years earlier, and it was her “friend and mentor”, in her words, who encouraged her to run. “He believed in me long before I believed in myself,” she once said. After running unsuccessfully again in 1997, she practised law for two years before being elected to Holyrood in 1999, and served as Salmond’s deputy party leader from 2004 until succeeding him as leader a decade later. Today, however, she will say nothing about him, their relationship or his trial. “Because anything I say about that generates headlines, and headlines generally are not a good thing for due process of law.”


She will, though, talk about the role of gender in her political career, as long as it’s clear she isn’t talking about Salmond. “The thing about #MeToo is it has made a lot of people, me included, reassess things that at the time you just put up with. You know, guys kind of touching you in slightly uncomfortable ways, and the leering. I remember having lunch in my early twenties with a guy who was the political editor of a big Scottish newspaper at the time, and the whole conversation was kind of conducted at this level” — she gestures to her bust — “and just felt really uncomfortable.” She said nothing to him or anyone at the time. Because it seemed normal to her? “Yeah. And I guess he probably didn’t think he was doing anything particularly untoward. I don’t even know who I would have said anything to. It was just the kind of thing you put up with.”


Since the #MeToo movement broke, she says she has put measures in place within the party to protect women. “I sometimes wonder,” she muses, however, “if because they can’t behave in these ways any more, that then fuels some of this abuse some men hurl at women. They think, ‘I’m going to take it out on you in another way.’ I think some of the sexism and misogyny that was so rife in my younger days, it’s not completely gone at all. It just manifests itself in different ways.”


Boris Johnson allegedly referred to her as “that Wee Jimmy Krankie woman” recently, a nickname she has heard before. “It’s meant as a term of abuse,” she says. In her early career, she modelled herself on the people around her, because “you try to fit in with how you dress, how you hold yourself, how you speak. But when the people who surround you are middle-aged men, you get, ‘You’re not feminine enough.’ ”


Nowadays her style is more conventionally feminine, but although she puts this down to the challenge of ageing — “As opposed to, ‘Oh my God, I have to think much more about my image’ ” — when I ask if she minds the time it takes, she exclaims, “Oh God, yeah, absolutely. It all adds up. I try to keep it as short as possible. But it’s probably half an hour, 45 minutes in the morning to make yourself look presentable enough to go out the door.”


She volunteers that the Daily Mail once ran a spread of photos showing her wearing the same suit. “What really annoyed me was that it wasn’t even the same suit! In photographs they just looked the same. But this was, you know, over a period of six months I’d worn the same suit four times or something. My goodness, how dare I?” President Obama, she points out, famously wore only grey or blue suits. “So, yeah, that’s the stuff guys don’t have to think about or worry about. And social media absolutely makes that abuse more direct.” She says she’s developed thick skin, because she’s had to. “But I’m not saying that I never get wounded or upset or hurt by something I read on social media. I usually just phone up Liz [her chief of staff] and rant about it.”

[Peevemor]

I’m not surprised she mentions a staffer rather than a friend, for by all accounts she keeps an unusually small circle of intimates, and is seldom seen out socially. She met Murrell when she was 18, at an SNP youth weekend he had organised, and cheerfully acknowledges that domestic chores are his department. She can, she says, just about cook beans on toast. The couple have no children, although not out of choice; in 2011 she suffered a miscarriage, but only disclosed this five years later, and the impression of a deeply private person is confirmed when I try to tease out any glimpse of her off-duty self. “What’s my guilty pleasure? I like Friday nights at home with Peter, a takeaway and red wine. That’s the only one I’m going to tell you about.” What spare time she has is spent reading — she is a famously voracious bibliophile, and once said: “I see reading fiction as an indispensable part of the job. I think all leaders in all positions of responsibility should be made to read fiction, because it uses personal stories to bring issues to life.”


After a practically monkish lifelong dedication to her cause, I wonder if she ever, in the dead of night, worries she might be wrong. Does she ever doubt that independence is right for Scotland?


“I have self-doubt about things every day. I would hate to be somebody who had such absolute certainty that I didn’t entertain the idea that I might be wrong about things. So of course I think about. I don’t believe that it will always mean plain sailing for Scotland. I just think it’s right to be independent to have the best chance.”


Does England have anything to gain from losing Scotland? “Yeah, masses! England gains a neighbour that is best friends and a constructive partner.” It might, I suggest, think it already has that. “Well, OK, I’m not sure they do.” If Johnson would only grant Scotland the chance to leave, she grins, “People in England won’t always have to hear us talking about how we’re not being listened to.”

[lapsedhibee]

… Does England have anything to gain from losing Scotland? “Yeah, masses! England gains a neighbour that is best friends and a constructive partner.” It might, I suggest, think it already has that. “Well, OK, I’m not sure they do.” If Johnson would only grant Scotland the chance to leave, she grins, “People in England won’t always have to hear us talking about how we’re not being listened to.”

Ta.:aok:

Interesting that she seems to think the Johnson government might be in trouble in a matter of weeks. Not sure how that will happen unless the entire Colin Browning faction suddenly wakes up, or a very unfavourable report into election interference is suddenly and unexpectedly published.

[grunt]

Decent interview with NS in the Sunday Times magazine.Thank you for taking the time and effort to post. Very interesting interview.

[StevieC]

Thanks for posting that Peevemor

It’s a bit tiresome that every paper/politician/presenter keeps repeating education/NHS/“day job”/etc. It’s as if there has been a memo put round everyone that this is the way to bring down the SNP??
Does anyone think it is working for them?

[Kato]

Being passionate about facts and reasonable debate. How quaint that sounds.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Cataplana]

Thanks for posting that Peevemor

It’s a bit tiresome that every paper/politician/presenter keeps repeating education/NHS/“day job”/etc. It’s as if there has been a memo put round everyone that this is the way to bring down the SNP??
Does anyone think it is working for them?

I'll tell you once I've finished my cereal.

[Mibbes Aye]

Thanks for posting that Peevemor

It’s a bit tiresome that every paper/politician/presenter keeps repeating education/NHS/“day job”/etc. It’s as if there has been a memo put round everyone that this is the way to bring down the SNP??
Does anyone think it is working for them?

I would imagine it is tiresome that education and the NHS keep getting mentioned.

Nearly as tiresome as failing standards in schools and the majority of Scottish health boards in special measures.

Still, it’s only schools and hospitals eh? Nowhere near as important as pushing for a referendum.

[Cataplana]

I would imagine it is tiresome that education and the NHS keep getting mentioned.

Nearly as tiresome as failing standards in schools and the majority of Scottish health boards in special measures.

Still, it’s only schools and hospitals eh? Nowhere near as important as pushing for a referendum.

At last somebody has spotted the problems in the Health Boards. Not something for the SNP to crow about, as they let the problems mount up.

Opposition politicians have little to crow about either. With Muppets like Cole-Hamilton, Briggs, or Sarwar often getting it totally wrong.

At least Freeman has experience of health care, and I'd take her over a couple of guys who have never had a real job, and a bloke who thinks running a dental practice qualifies him to take the big decisions.

[Moulin Yarns]

I would imagine it is tiresome that education and the NHS keep getting mentioned.

Nearly as tiresome as failing standards in schools and the majority of Scottish health boards in special measures.

Still, it’s only schools and hospitals eh? Nowhere near as important as pushing for a referendum.

Aye, but at least there's no Council Tax Freeze to go on about :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

Aye, but at least there's no Council Tax Freeze to go on about :wink:

Oh yes, a regressive bribe to middle classes that hurt the poorest in society.

As a bit of an SNP apologist I’m surprised you would want to bring it back up :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

At last somebody has spotted the problems in the Health Boards. Not something for the SNP to crow about, as they let the problems mount up.

Opposition politicians have little to crow about either. With Muppets like Cole-Hamilton, Briggs, or Sarwar often getting it totally wrong.

At least Freeman has experience of health care, and I'd take her over a couple of guys who have never had a real job, and a bloke who thinks running a dental practice qualifies him to take the big decisions.

In fairness, Freeman doesn’t really have that much experience in health care. She was on the board of the Golden Jubilee is all. She isn’t a clinician. Having said that, neither clinicians or non-medics within the Scottish NHS necessarily are competent and equipped to take the ‘big decisions’. There are compelling arguments as to why the system and structure only serve to deliver perverse outcomes.

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh yes, a regressive bribe to middle classes that hurt the poorest in society.

As a bit of an SNP apologist I’m surprised you would want to bring it back up :wink:

I noticed you hadn't raised your go to moan for awhile so just helping you along :greengrin

[Cataplana]

In fairness, Freeman doesn’t really have that much experience in health care. She was on the board of the Golden Jubilee is all. She isn’t a clinician. Having said that, neither clinicians or non-medics within the Scottish NHS necessarily are competent and equipped to take the ‘big decisions’. There are compelling arguments as to why the system and structure only serve to deliver perverse outcomes.

Sorry, they make much play of the fact she is an ex nurse. Is that not the case?

It appears that the CEOs of the health boards weren't really equipped to take big decisions either. I'm thinking of the new sick kids. I take your point though, a clinician wouldn't be any better at project management than a guy that came through the management side.

What the clinician would almost certainly know though, is that you can't open a hospital on one site and have the HDU on another. It was close to criminal when NHS Lothian tried to open a hospital (a children's hospital at that) AGAINST the advice of clinicians.

At least Freeman put a stop to that.

Edit: turns out she wasn't a nurse, her mum was a nurse, but it doesn't really count as health care experience. Sorry.

[StevieC]

I would imagine it is tiresome that education and the NHS keep getting mentioned.
Nearly as tiresome as failing standards in schools and the majority of Scottish health boards in special measures.
Still, it’s only schools and hospitals eh? Nowhere near as important as pushing for a referendum.

That's my point though.

We keep getting told that schools are failing and the NHS is a mess ... and yet the figures released often seem to indicate otherwise.

You have the best performing NHS in the UK, isn't it about time you got on with the day job and sorted that?
Your strategy for improving the attainment gap is working, isn't it about time you got on with the day job and sorted that?

That's the point I am making, not that there aren't problems or that improvements could be made but that it is the goto line whenever the SNP are involved .. regardless of whether or not it is factual.

[Mibbes Aye]

That's my point though.

We keep getting told that schools are failing and the NHS is a mess ... and yet the figures released often seem to indicate otherwise.

You have the best performing NHS in the UK, isn't it about time you got on with the day job and sorted that?
Your strategy for improving the attainment gap is working, isn't it about time you got on with the day job and sorted that?

That's the point I am making, not that there aren't problems or that improvements could be made but that it is the goto line whenever the SNP are involved .. regardless of whether or not it is factual.

I’m sorry but this canard about the best performing NHS in the UK is an absolute travesty. The majority of Scottish health boards are in special measures, all the key targets, waiting times etc get missed continually. But hey, it’s ok, because things are worse in England. Really? Is that how we measure success? It’s **** but not to worry, because it is worse somewhere else?

As far as the figures go, they don’t indicate otherwise. They indicate failure to deliver when it comes to education and health, and in the case of health, they indicate failure against targets the SNP set in law.

[Mibbes Aye]

I noticed you hadn't raised your go to moan for awhile so just helping you along :greengrin

That’s fine, I enjoy revisiting it from time to time. Especially when nobody has ever posited a decent argument as to why it wasn’t repugnant :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Sorry, they make much play of the fact she is an ex nurse. Is that not the case?

It appears that the CEOs of the health boards weren't really equipped to take big decisions either. I'm thinking of the new sick kids. I take your point though, a clinician wouldn't be any better at project management than a guy that came through the management side.

What the clinician would almost certainly know though, is that you can't open a hospital on one site and have the HDU on another. It was close to criminal when NHS Lothian tried to open a hospital (a children's hospital at that) AGAINST the advice of clinicians.

At least Freeman put a stop to that.

I don’t think she was ever a nurse, her mother was. Freeman is a politics graduate.

Not disagreeing with anything else you are saying though, NHS Lothian has been a car crash for years. I think it is something about culture though, as there are clinicians and the graduate scheme types who are very smart and talented but for whatever reason, the system seems to engender appalling decision-making.

[grunt]

I’m sorry but this canard about the best performing NHS in the UK is an absolute travesty. The majority of Scottish health boards are in special measures, all the key targets, waiting times etc get missed continually. But hey, it’s ok, because things are worse in England. Really? Is that how we measure success? It’s **** but not to worry, because it is worse somewhere else?


This is a completely absurd argument.

[StevieC]

I’m sorry but this canard about the best performing NHS in the UK is an absolute travesty. The majority of Scottish health boards are in special measures, all the key targets, waiting times etc get missed continually. But hey, it’s ok, because things are worse in England. Really? Is that how we measure success? It’s **** but not to worry, because it is worse somewhere else?

As far as the figures go, they don’t indicate otherwise. They indicate failure to deliver when it comes to education and health, and in the case of health, they indicate failure against targets the SNP set in law.

You’re just not getting the point .. it’s about trotting out the getting on with the day job line.

If the SNP aren’t doing the day job, then you can only assume that nobody is. Or that the SNP are so good at government that they can do better than others without doing the day job??

It’s not an argument that things are brilliant, or that targets aren’t being met. The SNP have never been afraid to say “we should be doing better”, unlike many other politicians.

Was the Tory answer to missing targets in England not to lower the targets??

[Ozyhibby]

I would imagine it is tiresome that education and the NHS keep getting mentioned.

Nearly as tiresome as failing standards in schools and the majority of Scottish health boards in special measures.

Still, it’s only schools and hospitals eh? Nowhere near as important as pushing for a referendum.

If we are minded to fix the problems in the SNHS or education, who should we vote for, Richard Leonard or Jackson Carlaw?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StevieC]

If we are minded to fix the problems in the SNHS or education, who should we vote for, Richard Leonard or Jackson Carlaw?

Ozyhibby, I usually find your posts concise, well informed and well researched .. but you’ve let yourself down badly here.



You’ve missed out Willie Rennie!

[Mibbes Aye]

This is a completely absurd argument.

Maybe you could explain why?

[Mibbes Aye]

If we are minded to fix the problems in the SNHS or education, who should we vote for, Richard Leonard or Jackson Carlaw?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So are some of us starting to accept there are problems? Because usually you post about how the NHS is worse in England, as if that makes everything alright.

[Mibbes Aye]

You’re just not getting the point .. it’s about trotting out the getting on with the day job line.

If the SNP aren’t doing the day job, then you can only assume that nobody is. Or that the SNP are so good at government that they can do better than others without doing the day job??

It’s not an argument that things are brilliant, or that targets aren’t being met. The SNP have never been afraid to say “we should be doing better”, unlike many other politicians.

Was the Tory answer to missing targets in England not to lower the targets??

I really am not sure of your point. Education and health are cornerstones of what we deliver as a society and they sit firmly with Holyrood. You said you didn’t believe the stats about performance but the facts are indisputable- failure in both areas.

[grunt]

Maybe you could explain why?

All the various governments are trying to deliver the best nhs they can with the budget they have to spend. By most measures, scotgov is doing it better than any other uk government but because they've failed to meet the targets they set for themselves you're criticising them.

You might as well say Usain Bolt was a failure because although he beat all the others he didn't break the 9.5 second barrier for 100 metres.

[Mibbes Aye]

All the various governments are trying to deliver the best nhs they can with the budget they have to spend. By most measures, scotgov is doing it better than any other uk government but because they've failed to meet the targets they set for themselves you're criticising them.

You might as well say Usain Bolt was a failure because although he beat all the others he didn't break the 9.5 second barrier for 100 metres.

Health Boards around the country are in special measures. The legally-binding targets the SNP set themselves are being missed all the time. The other targets they set are being missed all the time.

I think you should steer clear of Usain Bolt comparisons. It is laughable to suggest the Scottish NHS is performing at such a level, given the evidence.

[weecounty hibby]

Health Boards around the country are in special measures. The legally-binding targets the SNP set themselves are being missed all the time. The other targets they set are being missed all the time.

I think you should steer clear of Usain Bolt comparisons. It is laughable to suggest the Scottish NHS is performing at such a level, given the evidence.

Maybe the English government should out some of their NHS areas into special measures too. Just a suggestion. It looks like by doing so the SG has seen an issue and tried to sort it. No? I'm sure you will disagree

[Moulin Yarns]

Health Boards around the country are in special measures. The legally-binding targets the SNP set themselves are being missed all the time. The other targets they set are being missed all the time.

I think you should steer clear of Usain Bolt comparisons. It is laughable to suggest the Scottish NHS is performing at such a level, given the evidence.

All the time??? Seriously?

[Mibbes Aye]

Maybe the English government should out some of their NHS areas into special measures too. Just a suggestion. It looks like by doing so the SG has seen an issue and tried to sort it. No? I'm sure you will disagree

Literally dozens of English health boards have been put on special measures over the last few years. It’s not actually called that in Scotland but generally people understand the concept , the principle is the same and the phrase has become accepted shorthand up here.

[Mibbes Aye]

All the time??? Seriously?

Yes.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes.

Proof that you have lost it. 😁

[Mibbes Aye]

Proof that you have lost it. 😁

Your style is to engage in petty insults.

But on the A+E four-hour wait, the 18 week treatment limit, cancer treatment, delayed discharge, unscheduled admissions and all the other indicators and targets, they are failing.

But it’s me who has lost it yeah? I don’t think the evidence supports your petty jibes. But if it does then feel free to prove me wrong.

[Cataplana]

Your style is to engage in petty insults.

But on the A+E four-hour wait, the 18 week treatment limit, cancer treatment, delayed discharge, unscheduled admissions and all the other indicators and targets, they are failing.

But it’s me who has lost it yeah? I don’t think the evidence supports your petty jibes. But if it does then feel free to prove me wrong.

I think the point to stress is that they are failing against their own targets. What happens in England has no influence at all on their objectives or the way they go sbout them.

That said the A&E waiting target is a lot of nonsense. It has no bearing whatsoever on clinical outcomes. To me it is self defeating because people are more likely to pitch up at A&E.

My overall impression is that things like the sick kids is evidence of them taking their eye off the ball. Likewise utter shambles like Tayside may have been less likely to happen if they were not in SNP core country.

I imagine there was lack of political will to tackle the overspending, and to merge facilities.

[grunt]

I think you should steer clear of Usain Bolt comparisons. It is laughable to suggest the Scottish NHS is performing at such a level, given the evidence.

Well thank you but you're a clever poster, so I'm pretty sure you knew what I meant when I made the comparison. But you cleverly avoided addressing the point I was making.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think the point to stress is that they are failing against their own targets. What happens in England has no influence at all on their objectives or the way they go sbout them.

That said the A&E waiting target is a lot of nonsense. It has no bearing whatsoever on clinical outcomes. To me it is self defeating because people are more likely to pitch up at A&E.

My overall impression is that things like the sick kids is evidence of them taking their eye off the ball. Likewise utter shambles like Tayside may have been less likely to happen if they were not in SNP core country.

I imagine there was lack of political will to tackle the overspending, and to merge facilities.

Don’t disagree re people fetching up at A+E.

People can’t get GP appointments so end up showing at the front door of acute. It is symptomatic of a dysfunctional system.

[Cataplana]

Don’t disagree re people fetching up at A+E.

People can’t get GP appointments so end up showing at the front door of acute. It is symptomatic of a dysfunctional system.

They make hospitals like hotels now. They roll in with their Costa Coffee and cakes from M&S. It's so comfortable the rest of their extended family often show up for the fun.

[weecounty hibby]

Don’t disagree re people fetching up at A+E.

People can’t get GP appointments so end up showing at the front door of acute. It is symptomatic of a dysfunctional system.

It's also symptomatic of selfish *******s who have a bit of a cold or sore head and decide that the wait of a few days for the GP is only for other folk so decide that A&E it is. I have told my family's NHS before on here and folk using it as a political football is a joke. Still fabulous people doing fabulous work under immense pressure. And when you really need it it works for 99% of people.
I saw a friend's husband on Facebook moaning like **** that his wife's routine op had been cancelled and he was going off in one about it. It turns out that there had been a major emergency had come in that meant she had to be out back. Again selfish ******* all about them **** the emergency I am first in line. These are the folk that you hear moaning all the time and I have no doubt she would have been a statistic that made a black mark against Forth Valley NHS.

[Mibbes Aye]

Well thank you but you're a clever poster, so I'm pretty sure you knew what I meant when I made the comparison. But you cleverly avoided addressing the point I was making.

To be honest, I didn’t really get your point, so maybe worth restating?

[Mibbes Aye]

They make hospitals like hotels now. They roll in with their Costa Coffee and cakes from M&S. It's so comfortable the rest of their extended family often show up for the fun.

I hope you aren’t downplaying WRVS :-)

[grunt]

To be honest, I didn’t really get your point, so maybe worth restating?

You're criticising ScotGov for missing its own targets but giving it no credit for outperforming the other countries in the UK.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's also symptomatic of selfish *******s who have a bit of a cold or sore head and decide that the wait of a few days for the GP is only for other folk so decide that A&E it is. I have told my family's NHS before on here and folk using it as a political football is a joke. Still fabulous people doing fabulous work under immense pressure. And when you really need it it works for 99% of people.
I saw a friend's husband on Facebook moaning like **** that his wife's routine op had been cancelled and he was going off in one about it. It turns out that there had been a major emergency had come in that meant she had to be out back. Again selfish ******* all about them **** the emergency I am first in line. These are the folk that you hear moaning all the time and I have no doubt she would have been a statistic that made a black mark against Forth Valley NHS.

Yes. Obviously spoken from experience and reflects the reality. I think you are right, there is a responsibility on people as users of the system, as much as there is a responsibility on clinicians and staff.

[Cataplana]

I hope you aren’t downplaying WRVS :-)

Given their turnaround times they don't really come into it. It's hard to have an impact when you can only serve one person an hour.

The RVS are a different story of course.

[Cataplana]

It's also symptomatic of selfish *******s who have a bit of a cold or sore head and decide that the wait of a few days for the GP is only for other folk so decide that A&E it is. I have told my family's NHS before on here and folk using it as a political football is a joke. Still fabulous people doing fabulous work under immense pressure. And when you really need it it works for 99% of people.
I saw a friend's husband on Facebook moaning like **** that his wife's routine op had been cancelled and he was going off in one about it. It turns out that there had been a major emergency had come in that meant she had to be out back. Again selfish ******* all about them **** the emergency I am first in line. These are the folk that you hear moaning all the time and I have no doubt she would have been a statistic that made a black mark against Forth Valley NHS.

There is a conversation to be had about what the users can expect from the service. Politicians in power won't hold it as the opposition will accuse them of selling out.

This gives the opposition carte blanche to make any criticism they want, without ever being asked what they would do differently in power

Unrealistic expectations are the elephant in the room.

[Cataplana]

You're criticising ScotGov for missing its own targets but giving it no credit for outperforming the other countries in the UK.

What difference does it make? That's like saying it's ok for Hibs to get beaten if Hearts get beaten too.

[Mibbes Aye]

You're criticising ScotGov for missing its own targets but giving it no credit for outperforming the other countries in the UK.

Do you want to read that back to yourself?

The Scottish Government set itself binding targets in law that it has failed to meet.

Does the fact it is failing, but not failing as badly as England, mean that it is okay? No, it means it is failing, by its own standard.

[grunt]

What difference does it make? That's like saying it's ok for Hibs to get beaten if Hearts get beaten too.

No it isn't. It's saying that in relation to doing something very difficult, we're doing it better than anyone else in the uk.

[grunt]

Do you want to read that back to yourself?

The Scottish Government set itself binding targets in law that it has failed to meet.

Does the fact it is failing, but not failing as badly as England, mean that it is okay? No, it means it is failing, by its own standard.

Can't get multiquote to work on Tapatalk, but I'd offer you the same response as I gave above. Managing the NHS is incredibly difficult and we're doing it better than anyone else.

That's all I have to say.

[RyeSloan]

Loved the bit from Sturgeon where she tried to pretend the White Paper (you know the one that quotes once in a generation, sky high oil prices and how great GERS is repeatedly) was the difference between the approach to Brexit and her approach to Indy. That actually made me laugh out loud.


As for the interesting debate on the NHS....well it does seem that we are back to the ‘we’re not the worst so we are the best argument’. Not overly compelling that and totally misses the different pressures on each service and the huge disparity on how each is measured. Not does it address quite why we are failing to meet all those lovely targets that the SNP themselves deemed as the minimum standards they should be held to.

It’s also interesting that education gets missed time and again in these debates...is that because on international standard ratings even the ‘we’re the best of a bad bad bunch’ argument doesn’t stand up?

And of course there is the complete avoidance of the scathing children’s care report that effectively described the system as completely broken. I’m sure someone somewhere is busy trying to find a comparison that is worse to make this one ‘better’ as well.

But even after all that we had Nicola giving us the reassurance today that she was confident that Indy would most probably not make us poorer, she wasn’t sure right enough and really couldn’t articulate why she thought that but hey Brexit was a lie and Indy is based on facts n reasoned debate.....

[RyeSloan]

If we are minded to fix the problems in the SNHS or education, who should we vote for, Richard Leonard or Jackson Carlaw?


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To be fair that’s a rather good point....tragic how pathetic the opposition are in Scotland.

Doesn’t excuse the powers that be from their performance right enough but based with those alternatives it’s little wonder Nicola ain’t losing much sleep at night!

[Moulin Yarns]

Your style is to engage in petty insults.

But on the A+E four-hour wait, the 18 week treatment limit, cancer treatment, delayed discharge, unscheduled admissions and all the other indicators and targets, they are failing.

But it’s me who has lost it yeah? I don’t think the evidence supports your petty jibes. But if it does then feel free to prove me wrong.

No petty insult intended, that's why I put the smile. Sorry.

Improvement in all but one


https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/uploads/nr_191024_nhs_overview_ex09.png



I know you have something to do with health so you have a bone to pick with the government, but really, things may not be brilliant but they are not *****.

My own experience has been very good as I have mentioned before. And that is with NHS Tayside most recently.

[Hibrandenburg]

This is a completely absurd argument.

Why? Comparing apples with apples is ridiculous, it'll never catch on.

[Ozyhibby]

To be fair that’s a rather good point....tragic how pathetic the opposition are in Scotland.

Doesn’t excuse the powers that be from their performance right enough but based with those alternatives it’s little wonder Nicola ain’t losing much sleep at night!

The problem is that the budget is fixed down south. You can’t just say we are going to spend more money because you can only spend what you get from the Barnett formula. If you decide to raise a bit more extra tax, it can only be on people’s incomes which is the most painful way at the ballot box and the opposition will punish you for it. You can try and be radical with the way you run the system but that can be very high risk for a government if it goes wrong. So from a politicians point of view, sticking with what all the other NHS boards are doing and working hard to be just a bit better is the safe way forward.
On Education they have tried to be a bit radicle and introduced the curriculum for excellence which is widely praised within the teaching profession but appears not to be that good at getting good marks at the PISA tests. And they are getting hammered for it. They would have been better sticking with the old teach to the test methods politically.
They do give everyone free university education though so bit of a result there.


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[Future17]

What difference does it make? That's like saying it's ok for Hibs to get beaten if Hearts get beaten too.

Is it not more like saying neither side won the league but Hibs finished higher than Hearts?

[Bristolhibby]

You're criticising ScotGov for missing its own targets but giving it no credit for outperforming the other countries in the UK.

Or setting higher, tougher targets in the first place.

Don’t see Matt Hancock getting the kicking he deserves, and yes it is related as we all know English NHS funding directly impacts the funding that the Scottish NHS receives in pocket money.

J

[StevieC]

Day job?

Why Scotland’s NHS outperforms the rest of the UK (https://www.businessforscotland.com/scotlands-nhs-outperforms-the-rest-of-the-uk-heres-why/)

[Cataplana]

Is it not more like saying neither side won the league but Hibs finished higher than Hearts?

That is a very good way to look at it.

[Ozyhibby]

Day job?

Why Scotland’s NHS outperforms the rest of the UK (https://www.businessforscotland.com/scotlands-nhs-outperforms-the-rest-of-the-uk-heres-why/)

But I keep reading about the Scottish govt failing on the NHS? How can this be?


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[Cataplana]

But I keep reading about the Scottish govt failing on the NHS? How can this be?


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Because they are failing to meet their targets. It's quite simple.

[Ozyhibby]

Because they are failing to meet their targets. It's quite simple.

So if they changed their targets then they would be a success?


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[Slavers]

So if they changed their targets then they would be a success?


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Much like what they done with education, when attainment lebels started to drop the SNP removed Scotland from key international comparison tables.

I guess that is what your suggesting here? Instead of trying to raise to better levels of education or health instead, just lower the bar of expectation and then say everything is great!

[Cataplana]

So if they changed their targets then they would be a success?


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The operation would be a success but the patient would die.

Much like what they done with education, when attainment lebels started to drop the SNP removed Scotland from key international comparison tables.

I guess that is what your suggesting here? Instead of trying to raise to better levels of education or health instead, just lower the bar of expectation and then say everything is great!

Providing it was better than England, everything would be Barry.

[Ozyhibby]

Much like what they done with education, when attainment lebels started to drop the SNP removed Scotland from key international comparison tables.

I guess that is what your suggesting here? Instead of trying to raise to better levels of education or health instead, just lower the bar of expectation and then say everything is great!

I think Scottish schools will soon move back towards more rigorous testing like they have in England. Curriculum for Excellence is not delivering the results, and as that is all they are judged on then the SNP will change. The name may remain the same to avoid embarrassment but they will narrow the scope of the curriculum and concentrate on the measures which improve PISA scores. Probably means cutting some subject in favour of more English, Maths and Science.
Whether that’s the right thing to do or not, politically it’s all they can do.


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[Slavers]

The operation would be a success but the patient would die.


Providing it was better than England, everything would be Barry.

Scotland has a population of over 5 million and Englands population is around 66 million?

I suspect managing an NHS that serves 66 million is more problematic than managing an NHS that serves only 5 million.

But if that makes the SNP craw om about how great NHS Scotland is great compared with England, then indeed SNP appled are much more round compared with the English bananas.

[JeMeSouviens]

Scotland has a population of over 5 million and Englands population is around 66 million?

I suspect managing an NHS that serves 66 million is more problematic than managing an NHS that serves only 5 million.

But if that makes the SNP draw about how great they are compared with England then in need it's my apples are much more round compared with your bananas.

Centrally managing anything that serves 66 million vs 5 is problematic - that's why indy would work better. And would in fact work even better if post-indy power distribution doesn't re-centralise in Edinburgh.

[Hibrandenburg]

Scotland has a population of over 5 million and Englands population is around 66 million?

I suspect managing an NHS that serves 66 million is more problematic than managing an NHS that serves only 5 million.

But if that makes the SNP craw om about how great NHS Scotland is great compared with England, then indeed SNP appled are much more round compared with the English bananas.

You've just partly made a valid argument for Independence.

[Hibrandenburg]

Centrally managing anything that serves 66 million vs 5 is problematic - that's why indy would work better. And would in fact work even better if post-indy power distribution doesn't re-centralise in Edinburgh.

:agree:

[Kato]

Is the NHS in England run to serve 66M people? I thought it was regionalised and split into smaller areas of management.

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[Ozyhibby]

Scotland has a population of over 5 million and Englands population is around 66 million?

I suspect managing an NHS that serves 66 million is more problematic than managing an NHS that serves only 5 million.

But if that makes the SNP craw om about how great NHS Scotland is great compared with England, then indeed SNP appled are much more round compared with the English bananas.

Welcome aboard.[emoji106]


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[JeMeSouviens]

Is the NHS in England run to serve 66M people? I thought it was regionalised and split into smaller areas of management.

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I think you're right. 66M is the UK population anyway, Take away Scot+Wal+NI and there's only 56M or so in England.

[Slavers]

Is the NHS in England run to serve 66M people? I thought it was regionalised and split into smaller areas of management.

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You might be right but the SNP generalise it into Scotland is better than England. They dont comment on any specific region of the NHS they say it's better than England and we should be thankful for that.

[Ozyhibby]

You might be right but the SNP generalise it into Scotland is better than England. They dont comment on any specific region of the NHS they say it's better than England and we should be thankful for that.

They don’t say Scotland is better, just that the Scottish govt is better at running NHS than UK govt.


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[Slavers]

They don’t say Scotland is better, just that the Scottish govt is better at running NHS than UK govt.


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Which returns to my point that its easier to manage the health care of 5m people than it is to manage the care of 56m people.

[Ozyhibby]

Which returns to my point that its easier to manage the health care of 5m people than it is to manage the care of 56m people.

We know. That’s why independence is so appealing.


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[Slavers]

We know. That’s why independence is so appealing.


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But why make the comparison that's my point?

[ronaldo7]

The problem is that the budget is fixed down south. You can’t just say we are going to spend more money because you can only spend what you get from the Barnett formula. If you decide to raise a bit more extra tax, it can only be on people’s incomes which is the most painful way at the ballot box and the opposition will punish you for it. You can try and be radical with the way you run the system but that can be very high risk for a government if it goes wrong. So from a politicians point of view, sticking with what all the other NHS boards are doing and working hard to be just a bit better is the safe way forward.
On Education they have tried to be a bit radicle and introduced the curriculum for excellence which is widely praised within the teaching profession but appears not to be that good at getting good marks at the PISA tests. And they are getting hammered for it. They would have been better sticking with the old teach to the test methods politically.
They do give everyone free university education though so bit of a result there.


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We actually spend more per head of population in Scotland than they do in the other nations of the Uk. I think it's around £136 more per person. Maybe if the Tories in England, and labour in Wales did likewise, they'd not be lagging behind in many areas. 👍✅

[grunt]

Providing it was better than England, everything would be Barry.

That's a complete misrepresentation of the argument, as you well know.

[grunt]

But why make the comparison that's my point?:brickwall

[G B Young]

I would imagine it is tiresome that education and the NHS keep getting mentioned.

Nearly as tiresome as failing standards in schools and the majority of Scottish health boards in special measures.

Still, it’s only schools and hospitals eh? Nowhere near as important as pushing for a referendum.

Sums it up. No opposition party is in a position to make much headway in Scotland when it comes to bringing the SNP's record in government to the fore because for an entrenched swathe of the population independence is deemed so vital that they'll continue voting SNP regardless of how dismal their performance in office is.

[danhibees1875]

Which returns to my point that its easier to manage the health care of 5m people than it is to manage the care of 56m people.

Yes and No.

It's harder to manage a service to a more sparse population I would say. Scotland has about 1/10th of England's population, but it's spread over as much as 3/5ths it's land mass.

The overall scale of what England NHS has to cover is greater, but it's easier to manage denser areas of people and to generate economies of scale.

I'm not saying that makes it absolutely easier to run a service to a population of 56M over 5.5M - just that there's arguements either way I think.

[Kato]

But why make the comparison that's my point?Maybe because others throw criticism at them for running it badly, so it prompts the comparison? Maybe it's that, if you put a bit thought into it, it is probably the reason. Y'know, thought?

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[grunt]

Sums it up. No opposition party is in a position to make much headway in Scotland when it comes to bringing the SNP's record in government to the fore because for an entrenched swathe of the population independence is deemed so vital that they'll continue voting SNP regardless of how dismal their performance in office is.The whole point of the last ten pages of this thread is that the SNP's performance in office is demonstrably better than any of the (Scottish) opposition parties which are in office anywhere else in the UK.

[Ozyhibby]

Sums it up. No opposition party is in a position to make much headway in Scotland when it comes to bringing the SNP's record in government to the fore because for an entrenched swathe of the population independence is deemed so vital that they'll continue voting SNP regardless of how dismal their performance in office is.

Which of Jackson Carlaw, Richard Leonard and Willie Rennie do you think has what it takes to run our public services?


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[Slavers]

Maybe because others throw criticism at them for running it badly, so it prompts the comparison? Maybe it's that, if you put a bit thought into it, it is probably the reason. Y'know, thought?

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So essentially the SNP sets targets, misses those targets, people point out that the NHS is not performing to the standards set by the SNP, so the SNP say what about England were better than them though?

Even though it's not a like for Like comparison.

When you think about it's a bit silly dont you think?

[G B Young]

Which of Jackson Carlaw, Richard Leonard and Willie Rennie do you think has what it takes to run our public services?


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I don't rate any of them, but that doesn't mean their criticisms of the SNP's record in government are invalid.

FWIW I'd have backed Ruth Davidson to step up to the plate when it comes to running public services better than the SNP have done, but alas we'll never know how she might have fared.

[Cataplana]

We actually spend more per head of population in Scotland than they do in the other nations of the Uk. I think it's around £136 more per person. Maybe if the Tories in England, and labour in Wales did likewise, they'd not be lagging behind in many areas. 👍✅


Which returns to my point that its easier to manage the health care of 5m people than it is to manage the care of 56m people.


They don’t say Scotland is better, just that the Scottish govt is better at running NHS than UK govt.


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You might be right but the SNP generalise it into Scotland is better than England. They dont comment on any specific region of the NHS they say it's better than England and we should be thankful for that.

My overall feeling is that the NHS in Scotland is better than its English cousin. However, surely as citizens of this country we can ask for them to do better? It's probably better than healthcare in many countries, but we need to encourage the Scottish government to do better.

That's what running our own country is about, not being better than England.

[ronaldo7]

I don't rate any of them, but that doesn't mean their criticisms of the SNP's record in government are invalid.

FWIW I'd have backed Ruth Davidson to step up to the plate when it comes to running public services better than the SNP have done, but alas we'll never know how she might have fared.

Aye, when push came the shove, after all the photo shoots on bulls and tanks, she couldn't hack it.

[ronaldo7]

My overall feeling is that the NHS in Scotland is better than its English cousin. However, surely as citizens of this country we can ask for them to do better? It's probably better than healthcare in many countries, but we need to encourage the Scottish government to do better.

That's what running our own country is about, not being better than England.

We're always asking them to do better. Maybe if we untied their hands it'd become better.

Immigration (vacancies)
Consumption rooms

Just two areas we could try to improve, if only we had the power to.

[grunt]

FWIW I'd have backed Ruth Davidson to step up to the plate when it comes to running public services better than the SNP have done, but alas we'll never know how she might have fared.

Please tell me, because I'm really keen to know, which of her multiple accomplishments do you think make her capable of "stepping up to the plate"? What indeed has she ever done? I can think of nothing.

[lapsedhibee]

Please tell me, because I'm really keen to know, which of her multiple accomplishments do you think make her capable of "stepping up to the plate"? What indeed has she ever done? I can think of nothing.
:agree: Pure dilettante.

[Cataplana]

We're always asking them to do better. Maybe if we untied their hands it'd become better.

Immigration (vacancies)
Consumption rooms

Just two areas we could try to improve, if only we had the power to.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if their supporters were able to accept that they are not perfect.

Consumption rooms are a red herring, the country is awash with prescription drugs and that is the cause of the majority of drugs deaths in Scotland.

[G B Young]

Please tell me, because I'm really keen to know, which of her multiple accomplishments do you think make her capable of "stepping up to the plate"? What indeed has she ever done? I can think of nothing.

Not a lot you can accomplish when in opposition, but more than doubling the number Conservative MSPs at the last Holyrood elections and establishing the Tories as comfortably the largest opposition party was impressive bearing in mind their previous standing. I just thought she was by far the most credible threat to the SNP amid a generally mediocre talent pool across Scottish politics. I very much doubt the SNP would be a minority government if the likes of Carlaw had been Conservative leader back then.

[ronaldo7]

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if their supporters were able to accept that they are not perfect.

Consumption rooms are a red herring, the country is awash with prescription drugs and that is the cause of the majority of drugs deaths in Scotland.

Nobody's perfect mate. We all know that. Just look at that bloody bridge having to close the other week.

On the other hand we've got Annie Wells. ✊

[Ozyhibby]

My overall feeling is that the NHS in Scotland is better than its English cousin. However, surely as citizens of this country we can ask for them to do better? It's probably better than healthcare in many countries, but we need to encourage the Scottish government to do better.

That's what running our own country is about, not being better than England.

I guess there are two ways to improve things:-
1. Completely reorganise so that it does the job far more efficiently with the same resources.
2. Give them more money to hire more staff.
I haven’t heard a peep from any opposition party on how they would do number 1 and the budget has been cut by Westminster in real terms over the last ten years.


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[Ozyhibby]

Not a lot you can accomplish when in opposition, but more than doubling the number Conservative MSPs at the last Holyrood elections and establishing the Tories as comfortably the largest opposition party was impressive bearing in mind their previous standing. I just thought she was by far the most credible threat to the SNP amid a generally mediocre talent pool across Scottish politics. I very much doubt the SNP would be a minority government if the likes of Carlaw had been Conservative leader back then.

She never had any policies though? I can’t think of a single one? All she done was wrap herself in the union flag and move from photo shoot to photo shoot.


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[Cataplana]

I guess there are two ways to improve things:-
1. Completely reorganise so that it does the job far more efficiently with the same resources.
2. Give them more money to hire more staff.
I haven’t heard a peep from any opposition party on how they would do number 1 and the budget has been cut by Westminster in real terms over the last ten years.


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It's getting to the stage 50% of the population will be employed to look after the other 50%. Other answers are available.

[Smartie]

She never had any policies though? I can’t think of a single one? All she done was wrap herself in the union flag and move from photo shoot to photo shoot.


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Someone who has to fall on their sword due to being fatally overpowered by her Westminster superiors being held up as the Unionist leader who could have affected meaningful change...

She’d have given a few tax cuts to the rich and forced more folk to seek education and health services privately. Public services would not have improved under someone whose one trick was to wrap herself in the Union flag and be marginally less offensive than other Tories.

[G B Young]

She never had any policies though? I can’t think of a single one? All she done was wrap herself in the union flag and move from photo shoot to photo shoot.


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Is pledging to protect the Union any less of a policy than trying to bring it to an end (which is the reason the SNP exists)?

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't rate any of them, but that doesn't mean their criticisms of the SNP's record in government are invalid.

It is a bit like Zibi Malkowski giving Petr Čech tips on goalkeeping though.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not a lot you can accomplish when in opposition, but more than doubling the number Conservative MSPs at the last Holyrood elections and establishing the Tories as comfortably the largest opposition party was impressive bearing in mind their previous standing. I just thought she was by far the most credible threat to the SNP amid a generally mediocre talent pool across Scottish politics. I very much doubt the SNP would be a minority government if the likes of Carlaw had been Conservative leader back then.

Carlaw will shout "We arra people" shortly before the next election and get pretty much the same result as Ruthie.

[Ozyhibby]

Is pledging to protect the Union any less of a policy than trying to bring it to an end (which is the reason the SNP exists)?

The SNP has other policies as well though. Ruth had no other policy.


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[G B Young]

Carlaw will shout "We arra people" shortly before the next election and get pretty much the same result as Ruthie.

I doubt it. He tried that in December and, while the Tories retained more seats than I expected, it was the wrong approach by a guy who simply doesn't have the wider appeal of Davidson.

My point, though, is that while those for whom independence is all consuming will continue to vote for the SNP regardless of how mediocre their performance in government is, those who regard preserving the union as a cornerstone of the way they vote (and they include a far wider cross section of society than union jack waving Rangers fans) are seen as lacking a wider perspective.

[grunt]

My point, though, is that while those for whom independence is all consuming will continue to vote for the SNP regardless of how mediocre their performance in government is, those who regard preserving the union as a cornerstone of the way they vote (and they include a far wider cross section of society than union jack waving Rangers fans) are seen as lacking a wider perspective.

Firstly, I'd dispute that their performance is mediocre. By most measures I'd say they're doing fine. I know others will dispute that.

Secondly, that "wider perspective" that you trumpet is not so wide that it includes ANY political policies you yourself can actually point to other than preserving the Union. Not wide at all, in fact. Narrow. Narrow minded.

[DaveF]

Please tell me, because I'm really keen to know, which of her multiple accomplishments do you think make her capable of "stepping up to the plate"? What indeed has she ever done? I can think of nothing.

She did ok on the chase last week.

[ronaldo7]

Some letters re Scottish Independence V Nationalism.

https://t.co/sYc6BHZh7N?amp=1

[G B Young]

Firstly, I'd dispute that their performance is mediocre. By most measures I'd say they're doing fine. I know others will dispute that.

Secondly, that "wider perspective" that you trumpet is not so wide that it includes ANY political policies you yourself can actually point to other than preserving the Union. Not wide at all, in fact. Narrow. Narrow minded.

Here's the Scottish Conservative manifesto from the last Holyrood elections:

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Scottish-Conservative-Manifesto_2016-DIGITAL-SINGLE-PAGES.pdf

A primary focus on providing a strong opposition to the SNP's ceaseless drive for another referendum yes, but hardly bereft of other policies.

IMHO there's no narrower politics than nationalism, be it the worst of Brexit (ie the little Englander faction) or the wearisome mantra of all SNP figureheads that NOTHING positive can be achieved by remaining part of the United Kingdom. I don't have as much time for Gordon Brown as I once did, but here he maps out what I think is a sensible and positive way forward for the UK as a whole:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/18/united-kingdom-too-precious-to-be-lost-to-narrow-nationalism

[1875godsgift]

Here's the Scottish Conservative manifesto from the last Holyrood elections:

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Scottish-Conservative-Manifesto_2016-DIGITAL-SINGLE-PAGES.pdf

A primary focus on providing a strong opposition to the SNP's ceaseless drive for another referendum yes, but hardly bereft of other policies.

IMHO there's no narrower politics than nationalism, be it the worst of Brexit (ie the little Englander faction) or the wearisome mantra of all SNP figureheads that NOTHING positive can be achieved by remaining part of the United Kingdom. I don't have as much time for Gordon Brown as I once did, but here he maps out what I think is a sensible and positive way forward for the UK as a whole:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/18/united-kingdom-too-precious-to-be-lost-to-narrow-nationalism


That proved really popular with the Scottish electorate.

So popular in fact, that you lost 7 seats in the last election :wink:

Maybe it's time for the Scottish Conservatives to go with the flow, embrace Independence and forge a new future? :saltireflag

[G B Young]

That proved really popular with the Scottish electorate.

So popular in fact, that you lost 7 seats in the last election :wink:

Maybe it's time for the Scottish Conservatives to go with the flow, embrace Independence and forge a new future? :saltireflag

The link is to the Scottish Conservative manifesto from the last Holyrood elections, not December's general election. It helped win them 31 seats, more than double what they had previously. Might be wrong but I'd be surprised if the Holyrood parties (bar the SNP) launch their own manifestos for general elections.

[Ozyhibby]

Here's the Scottish Conservative manifesto from the last Holyrood elections:

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Scottish-Conservative-Manifesto_2016-DIGITAL-SINGLE-PAGES.pdf

A primary focus on providing a strong opposition to the SNP's ceaseless drive for another referendum yes, but hardly bereft of other policies.

IMHO there's no narrower politics than nationalism, be it the worst of Brexit (ie the little Englander faction) or the wearisome mantra of all SNP figureheads that NOTHING positive can be achieved by remaining part of the United Kingdom. I don't have as much time for Gordon Brown as I once did, but here he maps out what I think is a sensible and positive way forward for the UK as a whole:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/18/united-kingdom-too-precious-to-be-lost-to-narrow-nationalism

That Tory manifesto is a programme for opposition. Who on earth votes for someone to come 2nd? They can’t really say they are policies when they have no intention of implementing them? It’s basically saying vote for us to come 2nd and these are the talking points we’ll use while moaning about the SNP for the next 5 years.


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[JeMeSouviens]

The link is to the Scottish Conservative manifesto from the last Holyrood elections, not December's general election. It helped win them 31 seats, more than double what they had previously. Might be wrong but I'd be surprised if the Holyrood parties (bar the SNP) launch their own manifestos for general elections.

You’re wrong.

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/GE-Manifesto_Scotland.pdf

[G B Young]

That Tory manifesto is a programme for opposition. Who on earth votes for someone to come 2nd? They can’t really say they are policies when they have no intention of implementing them? It’s basically saying vote for us to come 2nd and these are the talking points we’ll use while moaning about the SNP for the next 5 years.


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Personally I thought it was a realistic strategy going into a election where the result was a foregone conclusion, one which was embarked upon with a view to laying foundations for a steadily stronger showing. Bearing in mind the Tories' post-Thatcher standing in Scotland nobody seriously expected them to win power at Holyrood and they would have been ridiculed for claiming it was possible. Look what happened to the Lib Dems when Jo Swinson said she was running for PM. However, it did yield them a record number of Holyrood seats, left Labour in their slipstream and played a big part in the SNP losing their majority. You questioned whether they had any policies other than preserving the Union and I'm just pointing out that they did. But apparently they weren't really policies because there was next to no chance of implementing them. By that token only the Tories and Labour should roll out policies for general elections and only the SNP should do so for Holyrood elections.

[G B Young]

You’re wrong.

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/GE-Manifesto_Scotland.pdf

Happy to stand corrected. I wasn't aware of that - and I doubt many voters were. Either way though it kind of underlines my point about Davidson's appeal when leading the Scottish Conservatives. A record number of Holyrood seats in 2016 followed by nearly 30% of the Scottish vote at the 2017 general election, where the Tories increased their Scottish MPs from just one to 13 and effectively kept May in a job. Set in the context of the Tories' standing in Scotland post-Thatcher it was an impressive rebuilding job. No coincidence they've seen a decline since she stood down.

[JeMeSouviens]

Happy to stand corrected. I wasn't aware of that - and I doubt many voters were. Either way though it kind of underlines my point about Davidson's appeal when leading the Scottish Conservatives. A record number of Holyrood seats in 2016 followed by nearly 30% of the Scottish vote at the 2017 general election, where the Tories increased their Scottish MPs from just one to 13 and effectively kept May in a job. Set in the context of the Tories' standing in Scotland post-Thatcher it was an impressive rebuilding job. No coincidence they've seen a decline since she stood down.

Actually, I don't think the Tory vote went down or at least not by much. I think it was more a case that the SNP vote that was less enthused in 2017 or drifted off to Corbyn came back.

Relentlessly banging on about independence has worked for the Tories in terms of rebuilding their base but it leaves them constrained to fish only in the unionist pool (currently about 50% of the electorate) and since they will always have competition there and the others cannot afford to work with them, they are effectively excluding themselves from Holyrood government.

[JeMeSouviens]

Angus Robertson is seeking the nomination for Edinburgh Central (currently the Tory seat of Ruth). It might put him in pole position should NS fail to survive the trial fallout?

[G B Young]

Actually, I don't think the Tory vote went down or at least not by much. I think it was more a case that the SNP vote that was less enthused in 2017 or drifted off to Corbyn came back.

Relentlessly banging on about independence has worked for the Tories in terms of rebuilding their base but it leaves them constrained to fish only in the unionist pool (currently about 50% of the electorate) and since they will always have competition there and the others cannot afford to work with them, they are effectively excluding themselves from Holyrood government.

Yes I agree that's likely to be the case now. However, I felt that with Davidson at the helm and Labour continuing to head towards irrelevance in Scotland that the Tories might have ended up with the unionist vote almost to themselves a little further down the line. That would have given them an electoral platform to actually challenge for power and an opportunity for Davidson to build on her voter-friendly credentials by rolling out a more comprehensive policy agenda. Still a long shot, but she seemed to see it as feasible. As I said though, it won't happen now with the Holyrood opposition once again comprising a set of entirely forgettable leaders.

[Cataplana]

Angus Robertson is seeking the nomination for Edinburgh Central (currently the Tory seat of Ruth). It might put him in pole position should NS fail to survive the trial fallout?

That's what I was thinking. His sales pitch is quite amusing,
"I will not pretend to constituents that I can be in two places at the same time."

A pop at Davidson, but also at anybody who fancies being the SNP leader, and working in Westminster, I imagine.

[The Modfather]

Happy to stand corrected. I wasn't aware of that - and I doubt many voters were. Either way though it kind of underlines my point about Davidson's appeal when leading the Scottish Conservatives. A record number of Holyrood seats in 2016 followed by nearly 30% of the Scottish vote at the 2017 general election, where the Tories increased their Scottish MPs from just one to 13 and effectively kept May in a job. Set in the context of the Tories' standing in Scotland post-Thatcher it was an impressive rebuilding job. No coincidence they've seen a decline since she stood down.

While the post Thatcher point is valid, I wonder if it’s also now a bit of a comfort blanket for Scottish Conservatives. I’m too young for the Thatcher years, so only know of them second hand and from reading up on what went on.

I’ve posted numerous times I’m more apathetic to politics and don’t see much difference in any of the self serving parties. My antipathy towards the Tories is more about what they’ve done, or not done, in my lifetime than anything relating to Thatcher. I’m in favour of Independence, so not pretending I’d vote Tory, but putting that particular issue aside, I judge each party on merit so no reason why I couldn’t vote Tory if they were proposing the best vision for Scotland. As it is, they seem little more than a backwater branch from the Westminster party. If they were to go it alone in Scotland I’d view them differently and would give them the same chance to convince me, in a hopefully post independent Scotland, as anyone else.

[G B Young]

Angus Robertson is seeking the nomination for Edinburgh Central (currently the Tory seat of Ruth). It might put him in pole position should NS fail to survive the trial fallout?

Seeing him and his fellow narcissistic windbag Salmond lose their seats in 2017 was a high point of that election. They both shared a love of their own voices and the whole Westminster culture, although at least Salmond had the decency to dress to accommodate his expanding waistline unlike the preening Robertson in his always slightly too tight designer suits. Both talented politicians on their day, granted, but I'd hope Robertson would return in a slightly more humble guise should he end up at Holyrood.

[JeMeSouviens]

Seeing him and his fellow narcissistic windbag Salmond lose their seats in 2017 was a high point of that election. They both shared a love of their own voices and the whole Westminster culture, although at least Salmond had the decency to dress to accommodate his expanding waistline unlike the preening Robertson in his always slightly too tight designer suits. Both talented politicians on their day, granted, but I'd hope Robertson would return in a slightly more humble guise should he end up at Holyrood.

Big fan then :wink:

[Cataplana]

Seeing him and his fellow narcissistic windbag Salmond lose their seats in 2017 was a high point of that election. They both shared a love of their own voices and the whole Westminster culture, although at least Salmond had the decency to dress to accommodate his expanding waistline unlike the preening Robertson in his always slightly too tight designer suits. Both talented politicians on their day, granted, but I'd hope Robertson would return in a slightly more humble guise should he end up at Holyrood.

Got to laugh, because Ian Blackford always makes me think of this guy:


https://tv.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ccbf99ff-b855-40ea-be51-52b700bdd5de

[greenlex]

Seeing him and his fellow narcissistic windbag Salmond lose their seats in 2017 was a high point of that election. They both shared a love of their own voices and the whole Westminster culture, although at least Salmond had the decency to dress to accommodate his expanding waistline unlike the preening Robertson in his always slightly too tight designer suits. Both talented politicians on their day, granted, but I'd hope Robertson would return in a slightly more humble guise should he end up at Holyrood.
Never really been a fan of anyone resorting to attacking appearances in life in general but think it seems possibly worse when doing it to politicians rather than challenging their actions (or inactions if you prefer).

[1875godsgift]

The link is to the Scottish Conservative manifesto from the last Holyrood elections, not December's general election. It helped win them 31 seats, more than double what they had previously. Might be wrong but I'd be surprised if the Holyrood parties (bar the SNP) launch their own manifestos for general elections.

You're right, you were wrong :greengrin

[allmodcons]

Seeing him and his fellow narcissistic windbag Salmond lose their seats in 2017 was a high point of that election. They both shared a love of their own voices and the whole Westminster culture, although at least Salmond had the decency to dress to accommodate his expanding waistline unlike the preening Robertson in his always slightly too tight designer suits. Both talented politicians on their day, granted, but I'd hope Robertson would return in a slightly more humble guise should he end up at Holyrood.

I can't let this one slip. Everything you say tells me you've never met Angus Robertson.

[G B Young]

I can't let this one slip. Everything you say tells me you've never met Angus Robertson.

You're right, I've never met him so I am basing my views solely on watching him on TV and some character assassination pieces I've read about him. On that basis I used to find him painfullly smug and basically all-round irritating. Pretty much my view of most politicians to be honest. I did, however, once get introduced to his brother in a pub and he seemed an alright bloke, so I'm sure there's every possibility Angus is a good guy in real life.

[ronaldo7]

Seeing him and his fellow narcissistic windbag Salmond lose their seats in 2017 was a high point of that election. They both shared a love of their own voices and the whole Westminster culture, although at least Salmond had the decency to dress to accommodate his expanding waistline unlike the preening Robertson in his always slightly too tight designer suits. Both talented politicians on their day, granted, but I'd hope Robertson would return in a slightly more humble guise should he end up at Holyrood.

Should have gone to Slaters.

Is this really where the tory party are these days, slagging off someone's dress sense.

Not much else to talk about then.

#immigration

[Ozyhibby]

Should have gone to Slaters.

Is this really where the tory party are these days, slagging off someone's dress sense.

Not much else to talk about then.

#immigration

Funnily enough nobody from the Scottish Tory Party was willing to go on the radio and promote the new immigration policies. So much for Carlaw taking the fight to Sturgeon. Already in hiding.


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[Killiehibbie]

Funnily enough nobody from the Scottish Tory Party was willing to go on the radio and promote the new immigration policies. So much for Carlaw taking the fight to Sturgeon. Already in hiding.


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How many of the 8 million unemployed, economically inactive people are actually willing or able to do the jobs that need workers?

[Cataplana]

How many of the 8 million unemployed, economically inactive people are actually willing or able to do the jobs that need workers?

There are families where three generations have never had the dignity of getting up in the morning and going to work. My thoughts are for the people who have to work alongside them.

[lapsedhibee]

How many of the 8 million unemployed, economically inactive people are actually willing or able to do the jobs that need workers?
Think an element of training is involved in this plan.

[Killiehibbie]

Think an element of training is involved in this plan.

A large number of those millions quoted on the news will never do a days work.

[lapsedhibee]

A large number of those millions quoted on the news will never do a days work.

Aye, ken. Is there a realistic figure for how many might? :dunno:

[lapsedhibee]

Aye, ken. Is there a realistic figure for how many might? :dunno:

Ch 4 saying 33,000. Can't believe Priti Vacant would misrepresent the situation like that!

[Killiehibbie]

Aye, ken. Is there a realistic figure for how many might? :dunno:

I suppose they could force the full time carers out to work and create 4 more full time jobs caring for their family member.
Looks like a bad policy with no chance of success.

[ACLeith]

How many of the 8 million unemployed, economically inactive people are actually willing or able to do the jobs that need workers?

I am one of the economically inactive. Pritti Nutjob has made me feel ashamed this evening. I can only apologise to everyone on here for being an OAP, only paying taxes on my pensions. I will go out tomorrow morning and look for a job at the minimum wage. Doesn’t she make you proud to be part of the UK?
😡😡😡😡😡😡

[Killiehibbie]

I am one of the economically inactive. Pritti Nutjob has made me feel ashamed this evening. I can only apologise to everyone on here for being an OAP, only paying taxes on my pensions. I will go out tomorrow morning and look for a job at the minimum wage. Doesn’t she make you proud to be part of the UK?
😡😡😡😡😡😡
If you're over 64 they'll let you off, for the time being. Once it becomes a national emergency it could all change.

[Hibrandenburg]

A large number of those millions quoted on the news will never do a days work.

Looking at this experiment from 2010, that's probably a good thing. I just rewatched this and it's incredible to think it was filmed 6 years before Brexit. It shows perfectly how the thick, lazy and xenophobic use immigrants as scapegoats for their own inadequacies. 60 minutes of utter cringe.

https://youtu.be/bqo-7rtGwOU

[ACLeith]

If you're over 64 they'll let you off, for the time being. Once it becomes a national emergency it could all change.

Phew! I’ll still go and get training manuals on fruit picking and washing dishes in restaurants, just to be ready to answer the call.

[Cataplana]

Phew! I’ll still go and get training manuals on fruit picking and washing dishes in restaurants, just to be ready to answer the call.

That's the Bulldog spirit that has been lacking in this country for too long.

Will you be exoecting any pay?

[Killiehibbie]

That's the Bulldog spirit that has been lacking in this country for too long.

Will you be exoecting any pay?

First 20 hours covered by state pension.

[ACLeith]

That's the Bulldog spirit that has been lacking in this country for too long.

Will you be exoecting any pay?

The minimum wage will do me fine. I’m sure I can live like an Eton FP on that.

[Future17]

The minimum wage will do me fine. I’m sure I can live like an Eton FP on that.

So many possible definitions of "FP" in that context. :greengrin

[ACLeith]

So many possible definitions of "FP" in that context. :greengrin

👍 could be the start of a new 50 page thread 😱

[G B Young]

I would imagine it is tiresome that education and the NHS keep getting mentioned.

Nearly as tiresome as failing standards in schools and the majority of Scottish health boards in special measures.

Still, it’s only schools and hospitals eh? Nowhere near as important as pushing for a referendum.

SNP's education record continues to sparkle:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51583604

[Moulin Yarns]

SNP's education record continues to sparkle:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51583604

Not read the whole report but there is a rise in passes in some subjects and a drop in others. A mixed bag. The headlines makes good reading for opposition parties and there is definitely room for improvement.

Maybe pupils are just getting thicker? 😉

[Ozyhibby]

SNP's education record continues to sparkle:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51583604

There is def room for improvement in the school system. This is far more fertile territory for criticism of the SNP than the NHS.
I have experienced both the private and the state sector now and I know for a fact that the private schools are doing a lot more homework every night. That and the fact that there appears to be no such thing as a failing teacher in the state sector (aye right) means that it is under performing.
Curriculum for excellence probably sounded like a good idea in the Woolly focus groups of teachers but the reality is it not rigorous enough and kids are failing exams.

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[goosano]

There is def room for improvement in the school system. This is far more fertile territory for criticism of the SNP than the NHS.
I have experienced both the private and the state sector now and I know for a fact that the private schools are doing a lot more homework every night. That and the fact that there appears to be no such thing as a failing teacher in the state sector (aye right) means that it is under performing.
Curriculum for excellence probably sounded like a good idea in the Woolly focus groups of teachers but the reality is it not rigorous enough and kids are failing exams.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think we should be critical of the way the SNP government handles the NHS. They do some things well and have tried a collaborative approach with GP's rather than the combative approach that there is in England. Primary care works generally well here though is under severe pressure from lack of GP's and nurses and that is reflected in a much lower A & E self presentation level. Scotland receives about 6% more per head for health so a better service is probably expected though this greater sum is to take account of higher levels of pdeprivation and therefore pathology.

Waiting times are a big concern. The government has a pledge to have a target of 18 weeks from GP referral to initiation of treatment. My mother recently waited 10 months to get her cataract done. Current Lothian waiting times show that waiting times just to be seen by a specialist(time for 90% to be seen) with a further wait for treatment include 57 weeks for Dermatology and Gastroenterology procedure and 46 weeks for Ophthalmology and 41 weeks for Urology. This is unacceptable. My brother works in the front line seeing admissions and the pressures are horrible. Another family member with a suspected stroke waited in the Receiving Unit from 6pm to 4am just to be seen by a doctor.

Social Care is incredibly important to keep people in the community. I ideally this should be going up in real terms but it is not. Council funding in real terms has fallen by 6% in the 6 years to 19/20. The Scottish Government doses have the power to raise income tax. It has tinkered with this with higher payers but personally I regret that they have not used these powers fully to fund health, social care and education better.

[Ozyhibby]

I think we should be critical of the way the SNP government handles the NHS. They do some things well and have tried a collaborative approach with GP's rather than the combative approach that there is in England. Primary care works generally well here though is under severe pressure from lack of GP's and nurses and that is reflected in a much lower A & E self presentation level. Scotland receives about 6% more per head for health so a better service is probably expected though this greater sum is to take account of higher levels of pdeprivation and therefore pathology.

Waiting times are a big concern. The government has a pledge to have a target of 18 weeks from GP referral to initiation of treatment. My mother recently waited 10 months to get her cataract done. Current Lothian waiting times show that waiting times just to be seen by a specialist(time for 90% to be seen) with a further wait for treatment include 57 weeks for Dermatology and Gastroenterology procedure and 46 weeks for Ophthalmology and 41 weeks for Urology. This is unacceptable. My brother works in the front line seeing admissions and the pressures are horrible. Another family member with a suspected stroke waited in the Receiving Unit from 6pm to 4am just to be seen by a doctor.

Social Care is incredibly important to keep people in the community. I ideally this should be going up in real terms but it is not. Council funding in real terms has fallen by 6% in the 6 years to 19/20. The Scottish Government doses have the power to raise income tax. It has tinkered with this with higher payers but personally I regret that they have not used these powers fully to fund health, social care and education better.




A family member was referred recently

Scotland doesn’t receive more for Health. If we are spending 6% more then we are taking it away from something else. Maybe education.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland doesn’t receive more for Health. If we are spending 6% more then we are taking it away from something else. Maybe education.


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Education is certainly failing, you just need to see the number of posters on hear that don't no the write word to ewes sometimes. :greengrin

[danhibees1875]

Not read the whole report but there is a rise in passes in some subjects and a drop in others. A mixed bag. The headlines makes good reading for opposition parties and there is definitely room for improvement.

Maybe pupils are just getting thicker? 😉

I think that's exactly the problem. :greengrin

[goosano]

Scotland doesn’t receive more for Health. If we are spending 6% more then we are taking it away from something else. Maybe education.


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You are right, loose words of mine. The Scottish government has a choice. Scotland spends 6% more per head on health than England. But then it receives 20% more than England under the Barnett formula so should we not be spending roughly 20% more than England on health? I'd be interested to know to what areas we divert more money

[G B Young]

There is def room for improvement in the school system. This is far more fertile territory for criticism of the SNP than the NHS.
I have experienced both the private and the state sector now and I know for a fact that the private schools are doing a lot more homework every night. That and the fact that there appears to be no such thing as a failing teacher in the state sector (aye right) means that it is under performing.
Curriculum for excellence probably sounded like a good idea in the Woolly focus groups of teachers but the reality is it not rigorous enough and kids are failing exams.

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This is a significant issue I think. I've noticed over the last couple of years that my youngest (state school educated) child has received very little in the way of homework compared to what his older siblings were expected to do at the same stage. It's dressed up as being seen as better for kids not to have to do too much homework and have more leisure time to keep fit etc, but when I spoke with a teacher about it at a parents evening I was told it was part of the drive to close the attainment gap (ie effectively dumbing things down so that kids in less deprived areas have their learning slowed down). The teacher in question then said she probably shouldn't have told us that.

[Slavers]

I think the SNP should first repair the damage it has done to Scotland's education system before begins a new campaign for Independence.

We could find ourselves Independent with a entire generation of Scots lacking good standards of education which cannot be good for any 'new' country.

If they could repair the damage they have done and then we see improvements surely that is a better starting place for an independent country?

[Moulin Yarns]

I think the SNP should first repair the damage it has done to Scotland's education system before begins a new campaign for Independence.

We could find ourselves Independent with a entire generation of Scots lacking good standards of education which cannot be good for any 'new' country.

If they could repair the damage they have done and then we see improvements surely that is a better starting place for an independent country?

You obviously haven't noticed that the snp cabinet is more than 50% female and therefore are more than capable of multi tasking. 😉


PS it's AN before a word beginning with a vowel. 😁

[allmodcons]

There are families where three generations have never had the dignity of getting up in the morning and going to work. My thoughts are for the people who have to work alongside them.

How is that possible if they don't work in the first place?

[Slavers]

You obviously haven't noticed that the snp cabinet is more than 50% female and therefore are more than capable of multi tasking. 😉


PS it's AN before a word beginning with a vowel. 😁

That's quite a sexist remark saying only women can multi-task.

[allmodcons]

I am one of the economically inactive. Pritti Nutjob has made me feel ashamed this evening. I can only apologise to everyone on here for being an OAP, only paying taxes on my pensions. I will go out tomorrow morning and look for a job at the minimum wage. Doesn’t she make you proud to be part of the UK?
😡😡😡😡😡😡

She is a ****ing right wing idiot. I'm surprised she didn't just refer to the imaginary 8M as "useless eaters".

[Moulin Yarns]

That's quite a sexist remark saying only women can multi-task.

Where do I say Only women can multi task? What I said is women are more than capable of multi tasking.

Your reply tells me more about your insecurity as a (presumably) man.

[AndyM_1875]

She is a ****ing right wing idiot. I'm surprised she didn't just refer to the imaginary 8M as "useless eaters".

Ther is the right wing of the Tory Party and there is also the blue rosette wearing moon howling fascist loving nutjobs. She's firmly in the latter camp.

[CloudSquall]

So the SNP losing a majority under a voting system specifically designed to block majorities is proof Ruth Davidson would run things better than the SNP?

Honestly, anyone that bought into the media's North Korean esque portrayal of "Ruth, what's she like?!" is on par with MAGA voters in terms of gullibility.

[Smartie]

I think the SNP should first repair the damage it has done to Scotland's education system before begins a new campaign for Independence.

We could find ourselves Independent with a entire generation of Scots lacking good standards of education which cannot be good for any 'new' country.

If they could repair the damage they have done and then we see improvements surely that is a better starting place for an independent country?

Any suggestions how they do that?

[Slavers]

Any suggestions how they do that?

Focus on education and not independence?

[Moulin Yarns]

Focus on education and not independence?

But I'm sure even you must admit that the Scottish government are able to work on more than one thing at a time. Or do you agree that the UK government didn't get on with the day job when they focused on Getting Brexit Done for the last 3 years.

[Smartie]

Focus on education and not independence?

Let's get into specifics.

What EXACTLY would you like to see them do to improve education?

What EXACTLY would you like to see them do with their time - currently spent putting forward the case for Scottish independence - to improve education levels?

Remember that their position is a strange one. Their raison d'être is that they only think they can do well on subjects such as education to a certain level whilst Scotland is not an independent nation.

FWIW I think they should be doing better on education, even with the powers they have. Anecdotally only, I am often quite appalled at the levels of basic literacy of people emerging from the Scottish education system. I'm talking about people who I have employed, people who I know are talented and hardworking and that with a bit of encouragement and a nudge in the right direction come on leaps and bounds in a very short space of time. Whilst I accept a certain amount of responsibility for the development of my workforce, developing a basic grasp of written and spoken English is not something that I think I should be having to do so much of. We're talking about smart, intelligent and motivated people here whose employment prospects are poorer as a result of being let down by a system.

[Slavers]

But I'm sure even you must admit that the Scottish government are able to work on more than one thing at a time. Or do you agree that the UK government didn't get on with the day job when they focused on Getting Brexit Done for the last 3 years.

Scotland voted to remain UK but the SNP ignored that result and went on with their quest for Independence.

The people of the UK voted for Brexit the day job was to deliver that.

Also if the remain MPs had respected the referendum it would not have taken 3 years and two general elections to deliver Brexit.

[Smartie]

Scotland voted to remain UK but the SNP ignored that result and went on with their quest for Independence.

The people of the UK voted for Brexit the day job was to deliver that.

Also if the remain MPs had respected the referendum it would not have taken 3 years and two general elections to deliver Brexit.

If Boris Johnson had stood up on day one and done what he is doing now it wouldn't have taken 3 years and 2 general elections.

He chose to slither into the background and leave the country in limbo for a few years.

The stage was his and he was entitled to come forward and deliver his bus-adorned vision.

[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland voted to remain UK but the SNP ignored that result and went on with their quest for Independence.

The people of the UK voted for Brexit the day job was to deliver that.

Also if the remain MPs had respected the referendum it would not have taken 3 years and two general elections to deliver Brexit.

I'm glad to see that you admit that the UK government gave up on the day job of governing the countries while using all their resources on tearing the UK out of the EU.

[lapsedhibee]

How is that possible if they don't work in the first place?

Cataplana means it will be difficult to work alongside people with no working background when Priti Vacant presses them into service.

[Slavers]

I'm glad to see that you admit that the UK government gave up on the day job of governing the countries while using all their resources on tearing the UK out of the EU.

The day job was to deliver Brexit! The people voted for it!!!

The people of Scotland rejected Independence that should have been the trigger for the SNP to concentrate on the day job.