SNP nonsense

[allmodcons]

SNP win Dundee local by election but vote was down 6.7%. Labour vote up 8.1%. Tory vote down less than 1%.

For the Yes City of Dundee that's a bit of a surprise to see the SNP vote fall.

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/05/snp-gatecrash-english-local-elections.html#comment-form

Tory vote down less than 1% (lol). Some achievement from a starting point of 8.4%.

[Just Alf]

And I was querying what the similarities with these countries were with Scotland, other than the obvious physical act of setting up a currency. If we are comparing the fact these countries set up a new currency as well then it seems like a fair challenge?

The narrative around the currency debate seems to be it will be a fairly simple and pain free process, while I believe it will be the opposite and it will in fact be exceptionally complex to implement. At the same time I believe it will be painful and dangerous to the Scottish Economy. One example is no longer having a lender of the last resort, so in the event of a financial crisis who would guarantee our deposits. Or the debatable issue around all the mortgages and pensions that will have to be paid or be paid in £ sterling. OK, some seem to think that won't be an issue, but all the analysis I have seen suggests it absolutely will. If someone can point to some facts, not opinions, it will not be a problem then happy to review.

Overall its a significant risk and there needs to be some honesty about it.

Remember when all the Brexiteers said leaving the EU would be a doddle and pain free.... But I am sure you will tell me it will be different because we are better and all that stuff.



Right, I'm maybe misreading this thread, I've had another look and not once has anyone said it's going to be easy. There's talk of its going to be a disaster and there's responses saying that other countries have done it so the bottom line is its possible.

Rereading it again the only person that seems to have a fixed view point on how good/bad/indifferent the government of the day will implement the change seems to be you, it IS a valid point you're making but what's the premise behind it? What is it that makes you believe that on the really good to really bad scale we'll sit on the bad end of it?

"Overall its a significant risk and there needs to be some honesty about it."

Couldn't agree more :agree


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James310... you made a good point earlier re the need to have evidence to back up a particular viewpoint (re racism/English).

As I mentioned earlier (apologies if you've answered and I've missed it) what's you're reasoning behind your Currency viewpoint that iScotland would be on the wrong end of the scale rather than elsewhere on it?

[James310]

I am sure over the last few weeks I have highlighted a number of times why I think it's a bad idea.

Why? Well it risks mortgages and pensions, for reasons I have explained earlier, I know some disputed this point but Andrew Wilson himself has said the same:

"If it is anticipated that there is to be a very early move to set up a Scottish currency, then the immediate risk is either of devaluation or the opposite.

“If it was to fall, say, 10 per cent against the pound, it would mean that mortgages owed in pounds got 10 per cent more expensive. Goods bought from outside Scotland would become more expensive overnight.

“If it was to rise by 10 per cent, it would mean pensions or wages paid in sterling dropped by 10 per cent"

Some will still no doubt dispute this but as we stand today or in the future nobody can offer any guarantees, so that's uncertainty and nobody likes uncertainty, people or businesses. I don't want my mortgage to go up and the money I have saved for my kids to be potentially wiped out. Happy with how it is thanks.

It also means we are using the £ sterling for an undefined period of time, so using the £ but outside the control of the BoE who we would also lose as lender of the last resort, so what levers would we have in a financial crisis? We would have access to very limited sterling reserves, if we ran out what would we do. Figures of £300BN have been quoted as the required amount, we have only 2.5M taxpayers in Scotland so is it austerity or tax increases to pay for huge cost? Borrow it? So what's the annual interest rates for brand new countries with no credit record? Also another point that seems to be missed is the BoE setting interest rates and monetary policy for our country for what could be years, is that really what Independence is? To me thats not Independence if another countries central bank has control of your economy.

What are these so calles 6 tests, Nicola Sturgeon herself could not recall them the other day and to be honest who can blame her. They are vague and complex. Do they even exist as she seems to think they do while her MPs say they don't. Total confusion which does not install confidence they know what they are doing. What happens if we never meet these 6 tests? We just keep using the £ in some kind of informal currency union. Is that really the best thing for a 'strong and stable' country to be in such a position using the £ in some informal way, how long will that last? Will business in Scotland be happy with that arrangement and will it encourage growth? (With again the BoE having complete control over all monetary policy)

I think the fact only 14% of voters expressed it as their option of choice is very telling.

It's all if's, buts and maybes.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't have time to go hunting for it, but in the mcrone report from 1978? Is fairly clear that at that time a Scottish independent currency would be in the top 3 in Europe. That was pre euros obviously, so the question now is why has it become toxic to some.

[James310]

I don't have time to go hunting for it, but in the mcrone report from 1978? Is fairly clear that at that time a Scottish independent currency would be in the top 3 in Europe. That was pre euros obviously, so the question now is why has it become toxic to some.

Regarding a separate Scottish Currency did the Greens ever publish this report from the one and only Ronald Mcdonald?


https://greens.scot/news/scottish-greens-publish-independence-statement


"That work begins with the development of a detailed research paper on an independent currency"

"The paper will be written by Ronald MacDonald, Research Professor in Macroeconomics and International Finance at Glasgow University, and is supported by former Labour MP and Yes Scotland chair Dennis Canavan."

What were the conclusions?

[JeMeSouviens]

I am sure over the last few weeks I have highlighted a number of times why I think it's a bad idea.

Why? Well it risks mortgages and pensions, for reasons I have explained earlier, I know some disputed this point but Andrew Wilson himself has said the same:

"If it is anticipated that there is to be a very early move to set up a Scottish currency, then the immediate risk is either of devaluation or the opposite.

“If it was to fall, say, 10 per cent against the pound, it would mean that mortgages owed in pounds got 10 per cent more expensive. Goods bought from outside Scotland would become more expensive overnight.

“If it was to rise by 10 per cent, it would mean pensions or wages paid in sterling dropped by 10 per cent"

Some will still no doubt dispute this but as we stand today or in the future nobody can offer any guarantees, so that's uncertainty and nobody likes uncertainty, people or businesses. I don't want my mortgage to go up and the money I have saved for my kids to be potentially wiped out. Happy with how it is thanks.

It also means we are using the £ sterling for an undefined period of time, so using the £ but outside the control of the BoE who we would also lose as lender of the last resort, so what levers would we have in a financial crisis? We would have access to very limited sterling reserves, if we ran out what would we do. Figures of £300BN have been quoted as the required amount, we have only 2.5M taxpayers in Scotland so is it austerity or tax increases to pay for huge cost? Borrow it? So what's the annual interest rates for brand new countries with no credit record? Also another point that seems to be missed is the BoE setting interest rates and monetary policy for our country for what could be years, is that really what Independence is? To me thats not Independence if another countries central bank has control of your economy.

What are these so calles 6 tests, Nicola Sturgeon herself could not recall them the other day and to be honest who can blame her. They are vague and complex. Do they even exist as she seems to think they do while her MPs say they don't. Total confusion which does not install confidence they know what they are doing. What happens if we never meet these 6 tests? We just keep using the £ in some kind of informal currency union. Is that really the best thing for a 'strong and stable' country to be in such a position using the £ in some informal way, how long will that last? Will business in Scotland be happy with that arrangement and will it encourage growth? (With again the BoE having complete control over all monetary policy)

I think the fact only 14% of voters expressed it as their option of choice is very telling.

It's all if's, buts and maybes.

Who by? :confused: That's nearly double Scotland's GDP! Are you sure you're not a factor of 10 out?

Top marks for shoehorning in an immediate-move-to-Scottish-currency scare story along with a not-moving-to-Scottish-currency-at-all scare story. You certainly can't argue with logic like that. :aok:

I did say Project Fear needed to up its game. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Who by? :confused: That's nearly double Scotland's GDP! Are you sure you're not a factor of 10 out?

Top marks for shoehorning in an immediate-move-to-Scottish-currency scare story along with a not-moving-to-Scottish-currency-at-all scare story. You certainly can't argue with logic like that. :aok:

I did say Project Fear needed to up its game. :wink:

It's from a tweet from the Scottish (sic) tories

[James310]

Who by? :confused: That's nearly double Scotland's GDP! Are you sure you're not a factor of 10 out?

Top marks for shoehorning in an immediate-move-to-Scottish-currency scare story along with a not-moving-to-Scottish-currency-at-all scare story. You certainly can't argue with logic like that. :aok:

I did say Project Fear needed to up its game. :wink:

The same guy the Greens got to write them a paper about a separate Scottish Currency.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/separate-scottish-currency-could-cost-as-much-as-300bn-1-4743731

Your deliberately being misleading. Both options are bad, so the best option is to stick with what we have.

What do you make of Andrew Wilsons comment?

[James310]

What would our share of UK debt be if we got Independence? Would it be based on % of population, so 9% of population would be 9% of debt? What's 9% of £2 trillion pounds? Is that how it would work?

[Moulin Yarns]

What would our share of UK debt be if we got Independence? Would it be based on % of population, so 9% of population would be 9% of debt? What's 9% of £2 trillion pounds? Is that how it would work?

Well, if you want to believe that story in the Torygraph, rather a lot, but then if the story is true and we move to a new currency on day one then we will be debt free from day one. That's called negotiations, the tories should know all about them.

[James310]

Well, if you want to believe that story in the Torygraph, rather a lot, but then if the story is true and we move to a new currency on day one then we will be debt free from day one. That's called negotiations, the tories should know all about them.

What story is that? I am asking a question.

Are you saying its a fact we would inherit no debt at all from the UK?

Did you find that paper the Greens did ?

[JeMeSouviens]

What would our share of UK debt be if we got Independence? Would it be based on % of population, so 9% of population would be 9% of debt? What's 9% of £2 trillion pounds? Is that how it would work?

First off, do you understand how governments issue sovereign debt? If not, you won't understand the answer.

[JeMeSouviens]

The same guy the Greens got to write them a paper about a separate Scottish Currency.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/separate-scottish-currency-could-cost-as-much-as-300bn-1-4743731

Your deliberately being misleading. Both options are bad, so the best option is to stick with what we have.

What do you make of Andrew Wilsons comment?

I'm being misleading?????????????

:kettle:

:faf:

[Ozyhibby]

What story is that? I am asking a question.

Are you saying its a fact we would inherit no debt at all from the UK?

Did you find that paper?

Technically we could have no debt but of course we would take responsibility for our share. The flip side of this is that we would take on the corresponding share of the assets.
A fair bit of negotiation would happen where the UK keeps some assets we have no use for and we take on a bit less of the debt.
An example might be if the uk owns a large property overseas, the new Scottish govt might decide they have no use for 10% of that and a deal done to reduce the debt by that amount.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

First off, do you understand how governments issue sovereign debt? If not, you won't understand the answer.

I am willing to learn?

[James310]

I'm being misleading?????????????

:kettle:

:faf:

So what about Andrew Wilsons comments?

[Radium]

Climate change emergency - is this the same climate change emergency the SNP voted against a few weeks ago in the Scottish Parliament? Strange.

How does a cut in air passenger duty tally up with declaring this emergency?

Feels like a bit of jumping on the bandwagon for a few days of PR and that's about it.

You seem to adopt a squirrel approach to the debate but here goes.

They are mutually exclusive.

Aviation is one of the worst polluting industries and they already receive tax breaks by avoiding vat on fuel. The types of gases released have a higher impact and we are still a bit away from electric planes even for short haul flights.

Given the above it will be interesting to see how policy changes. Whether it will be a u-turn or a sidestep I don’t know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

So what about Andrew Wilsons comments?

The ones that say an immediate, premature move to a Scottish currency would be a risk? The sort of analysis that led the SNP to adopt a policy of moving "as soon as practicable" rather than prematurely?

Seem reasonable to me.

Anyway, that's enough answering your pish for one day. Toodle pip. :bye:

[James310]

The ones that say an immediate, premature move to a Scottish currency would be a risk? The sort of analysis that led the SNP to adopt a policy of moving "as soon as practicable" rather than prematurely?

Seem reasonable to me.

Anyway, that's enough answering your pish for one day. Toodle pip. :bye:

But they lost that vote at the conference. Enough of answering your pish as well. Bye.

I am putting you on ignore seeing as you refuse to put me on ignore.

[G B Young]

The criminal court case is one thing, I think the enquiry into the handling of the whole sorry affair will throw up some surprises as well. Deleted meetings with no explanation , emails going missing etc.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-salmond-sex-assault-case-to-leave-snp-leadership-tarnished-z3hgtlwm6

[JeMeSouviens]

But they lost that vote at the conference. Enough of answering your pish as well. Bye.

I am putting you on ignore seeing as you refuse to put me on ignore.

Did they, aye? :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

What story is that? I am asking a question.

Are you saying its a fact we would inherit no debt at all from the UK?

Did you find that paper the Greens did ?

The same place you conjured up £300bn.

No, and I'm not bothered looking. If you are so interested looking

[James310]

The same place you conjured up £300bn.

No, and I'm not bothered looking. If you are so interested looking

The £300Bn mentioned in the article I linked to? 😂

I thought so, probably does not exist.

Your happy to criticise me but you can't even tell me your own parties stance. Embarrassing.

[James310]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-salmond-sex-assault-case-to-leave-snp-leadership-tarnished-z3hgtlwm6

Indeed, emails being deleted after 14 months is the latest excuse. How do they run projects in the Scot Gov that last more than 14 months? Are all the emails deleted! Sounds like a cover up.

[JeMeSouviens]

The same place you conjured up £300bn.

No, and I'm not bothered looking. If you are so interested looking

He's just phoning it in now. Project Half Hearted Fear. Sad days. :wink:

[Just Alf]

The same guy the Greens got to write them a paper about a separate Scottish Currency.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/separate-scottish-currency-could-cost-as-much-as-300bn-1-4743731

Your deliberately being misleading. Both options are bad, so the best option is to stick with what we have.

What do you make of Andrew Wilsons comment?

Thanks for taking the time to respond, it was like one of my posts... long! :thumbsup:

it's this "Both options are bad, so the best option is to stick with what we have." I'm trying to get to the bottom of.... why are you so sure both options will be "bad", other countries have travelled down the road to their own currency with varying degrees of success why cant we? :agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

The £300Bn mentioned in the article I linked to? 😂

I thought so, probably does not exist.

Your happy to criticise me but you can't even tell me your own parties stance. Embarrassing.

I didn't say I couldn't, but I don't think you understand that if you want to find something out you can use the Internet

[Moulin Yarns]

The £300Bn mentioned in the article I linked to? 😂

I thought so, probably does not exist.

Your happy to criticise me but you can't even tell me your own parties stance. Embarrassing.

You mentioned something about £300bn,I saw a torygraph article at Scottish (sic) tories tweet but if you were not aware of that then that's OK. Ignorance is bliss

[James310]

I didn't say I couldn't, but I don't think you understand that if you want to find something out you can use the Internet

I did, I replied to this earlier. You sent a link to the manifesto, I read it and while I saw an initiative about local currency I never saw anything about what approach to currency the Greens were in favour of. I even sent you a link to an article from 2013 where it stated they wanted a separate Scottish Currency, but questioned if that was still the case. You never replied.

Now I see an article on their own website (so I am looking see) about a detailed research paper on an independent currency. I still can't work out what they want, or is it basically what the SNP want?

[James310]

You mentioned something about £300bn,I saw a torygraph article at Scottish (sic) tories tweet but if you were not aware of that then that's OK. Ignorance is bliss

Never saw that, I read the article in the Scotsman. That is where the £300BN came from, the very same man that has or has not written a paper for the Scottish Greens on an independent currency.

So why would the Greens employ someone who your clearly disagree with to write them a detailed research paper on an independent currency? So was it a bad choice?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I'm trying to learn a bit about politics having had no interest until the last couple of years, obviously there are better reference points than here but, it's always good to see my fellow Hibbies points of view. The last few days it has to be said all "the more informed than me" posters are letting your respective sides down. Up your game lads. 😉

[James310]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, it was like one of my posts... long! :thumbsup:

it's this "Both options are bad, so the best option is to stick with what we have." I'm trying to get to the bottom of.... why are you so sure both options will be "bad", other countries have travelled down the road to their own currency with varying degrees of success why cant we? :agree:

Other countries that share the same economic and political characteristics as Scotland?

Every case is different and each country will have their own reasons. Of course it can be done, but let's be honest about what it entails and the risks and impact it has. Don't be like the Brexiteers and think everything will be fine, which some, not all seem to be advocating.

We could launch a new currency on day 1 of Indy if we wanted. It would be a massive risk and could lead to economic disaster, but it could be done.

[Just Alf]

Other countries that share the same economic and political characteristics as Scotland?

Every case is different and each country will have their own reasons. Of course it can be done, but let's be honest about what it entails and the risks and impact it has. Don't be like the Brexiteers and think everything will be fine, which some, not all seem to be advocating.

We could launch a new currency on day 1 of Indy if we wanted. It would be a massive risk and could lead to economic disaster, but it could be done.

fair do's ... I think we both agree then, it's a risk, could be done, could be good, could be bad, could be indifferent. :aok:

[James310]

fair do's ... I think we both agree then, it's a risk, could be done, could be good, could be bad, could be indifferent. :aok:

Uncertainty all round. Not an environment that individuals and businesses want. Does not encourage growth and investment.

[Fife-Hibee]

Uncertainty all round. Not an environment that individuals and businesses want. Does not encourage growth and investment.

No it does not. So why are we still trapping ourselves within a UK political system rife with "uncertainty" that we in Scotland didn't ask for?

[James310]

No it does not. So why are we still trapping ourselves within a UK political system rife with "uncertainty" that we in Scotland didn't ask for?

Or still have the threat and uncertainty of Indy hanging over us despite us already answering the question only 5 years ago.

So far the SNP have ignored the result of the Independence referendum, they want another one. Ignored the result of the Brexit referendum, they want another one. Oh but they want us to respect the result of the illegal referendum in Catalonia!

[Fife-Hibee]

Or still have the threat and uncertainty of Indy hanging over us despite us already answering the question only 5 years ago.

So far the SNP have ignored the result of the Independence referendum, they want another one. Ignored the result of the Brexit referendum, they want another one. Oh but they want us to respect the result of the illegal referendum in Catalonia!

The Scottish Government answers to the people of Scotland only. Scotland voted to remain in the EU. The Scottish Government isn't going to ignore that as much as you may want them to.

Your idea of democracy is having the current party replaced with one that makes the Scottish Parliament utterly redundant. Thankfully, enough people in Scotland have a good enough grasp of democracy to ensure that never happens.

[Moulin Yarns]

Never saw that, I read the article in the Scotsman. That is where the £300BN came from, the very same man that has or has not written a paper for the Scottish Greens on an independent currency.

So why would the Greens employ someone who your clearly disagree with to write them a detailed research paper on an independent currency? So was it a bad choice?

So, 300bn if tied to the US Dollar. Or 30bn if not tied to any currency.

Well, thank goodness that you are not a financial expert.

[James310]

So, 300bn if tied to the US Dollar. Or 30bn if not tied to any currency.

Well, thank goodness that you are not a financial expert.

Have you even read the article? Obviously not.

You found that 'detailed research paper' yet? Or even bother to answer any questions?

If you don't want to answer it just say so, you say you are a member of the Greens but can't tell us what their policy is or where this detailed research paper on the very subject we are talking about is! 😂

[McD]

The Scottish Government answers to the people of Scotland only. Scotland voted to remain in the EU. The Scottish Government isn't going to ignore that as much as you may want them to.

Your idea of democracy is having the current party replaced with one that makes the Scottish Parliament utterly redundant. Thankfully, enough people in Scotland have a good enough grasp of democracy to ensure that never happens.


To play devils advocate, the people of Scotland also voted to stay as part of the UK, which means accepting the outcomes of UK wide elections and referendums, including Brexit.

[Moulin Yarns]

Have you even read the article? Obviously not.

You found that 'detailed research paper' yet? Or even bother to answer any questions?

If you don't want to answer it just say so, you say you are a member of the Greens but can't tell us what their policy is or where this detailed research paper on the very subject we are talking about is! 😂

Hong Kong 300bn Norway 30bn

Hong Kong tied to the US Dollar, Norway free floating

Figures in that article.

I have already responded to your obsession. But here goes again

As a branch member I do not have direct access to the party executive and I have already told you that I can't be bothered looking for it. You can find it yourself if you are so desperate to read a report by an arch unionist.

If you are so obsessed about what the Scottish Green Party say about anything why not start a new thread rather than posting on one about the snp.

Diversionary tactics to take your mind off the disaster in the local elections down south on your part. 🤔

[James310]

Hong Kong 300bn Norway 30bn

Hong Kong tied to the US Dollar, Norway free floating

Figures in that article.

I have already responded to your obsession. But here goes again

As a branch member I do not have direct access to the party executive and I have already told you that I can't be bothered looking for it. You can find it yourself if you are so desperate to read a report by an arch unionist.

If you are so obsessed about what the Scottish Green Party say about anything why not start a new thread rather than posting on one about the snp.

Diversionary tactics to take your mind off the disaster in the local elections down south on your part. 🤔

😂 So that's a no then. I am not obsessed, just asking a Green Party member what their parties position is on a very topical subject (still no reply) You have defended the SNP position so I can only assume its exactly the same, no surprise there then. But let's leave it there then. 😂

Just to be clear though I have looked for it, nowhere to be seen. I am sure this 'detailed research paper' on an independent currency must never have seen the light of day then. I wonder why that is? We can only assume they must not have liked the content and the consequences of the reality it was proposing so never published it. Funny that.

As for the report by an arch Unionist why on earth did the Greens think it was sensible to commission him in the first place, you have to really question their judgement on that one. They should of got someone to say the things they wanted to hear and liked, then it would have been a really fair and objective paper. 😂

[Fife-Hibee]

To play devils advocate, the people of Scotland also voted to stay as part of the UK, which means accepting the outcomes of UK wide elections and referendums, including Brexit.

So Scottish election manifestos count for nothing then? Why even bother having Scottish elections then, or a Scottish Parliament?

[McD]

So Scottish election manifestos count for nothing then? Why even bother having Scottish elections then, or a Scottish Parliament?


I didn't say that, but feel free to keep seeing things that aren’t there.

you made a point that Scotland voted to remain in the EU, and that that would not be ignored. I simply pointed out that Scotland also voted to stay a part of the UK, and that that also shouldn’t be ignored. I’m guessing you think that vote should “count for nothing”? :aok:

Neither of those things is a Scottish election, election manifesto (although you can link the Indy referendum to the SNP manifesto) or a Scottish parliament. So your point is irrelevant and simply argumentative, borderline straw man.

No need to reply, save you the need to shift the goal posts again.

[Fife-Hibee]

I didn't say that, but feel free to keep seeing things that aren’t there.

you made a point that Scotland voted to remain in the EU, and that that would not be ignored. I simply pointed out that Scotland also voted to stay a part of the UK, and that that also shouldn’t be ignored. I’m guessing you think that vote should “count for nothing”? :aok:

Neither of those things is a Scottish election, election manifesto (although you can link the Indy referendum to the SNP manifesto) or a Scottish parliament. So your point is irrelevant and simply argumentative, borderline straw man.

No need to reply, save you the need to shift the goal posts again.

I never said the 2014 vote shouldn't count for nothing. Stop seeing things that aren't there. :wink:

I also never said they were the "same thing". However, referendums come about through elections and manifesto pledges. That's how the last one came about. So to say my point is "irrelevant" is complete nonsense. It's absolutely relevant.

Feel free to reply. I have no problem discussing this further.

[McD]

I never said the 2014 vote shouldn't count for nothing. Stop seeing things that aren't there. :wink:

I also never said they were the "same thing". However, referendums come about through elections and manifesto pledges. That's how the last one came about. So to say my point is "irrelevant" is complete nonsense. It's absolutely relevant.

Feel free to reply. I have no problem discussing this further.


Firstly, you miss sarcasm, obviously.

secondly, why quote “same things” when those words weren’t in my post? Definitely seeing things that aren’t there :rolleyes:

lastly, it is irrelevant. You specifically spoke about referendum voting outcomes, which I replied specifically to. You then shifted the goalposts to start talking about manifestos and Scottish parliaments. That’s not a discussion. It’s the act of someone who can’t accept a response to their point so makes a straw man argument.

[Fife-Hibee]

Firstly, you miss sarcasm, obviously.

secondly, why quote “same things” when those words weren’t in my post? Definitely seeing things that aren’t there :rolleyes:

lastly, it is irrelevant. You specifically spoke about referendum voting outcomes, which I replied specifically to. You then shifted the goalposts to start talking about manifestos and Scottish parliaments. That’s not a discussion. It’s the act of someone who can’t accept a response to their point so makes a straw man argument.

Perhaps it's just me. But trying to pick up sarcasm through text is a little more challenging than it is in person? :dunno:

You said "neither of those things is a Scottish election, Scottish manifesto or Scottish Parliament." Referring to the Scottish and EU referendums. So yes, you were saying that they're not the same things and I agree with you. But it completely overlooks the fact that these things are quite clearly relevant where referendums are concerned.

I responded to your response and you're the one making a straw man argument, because you don't like the response I gave. Calling it "irrelevant" ignores fact and attempts to brush my point aside. When everybody knows full well that it's quite clearly relevant.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1124957223019352064?s=19

'War on Cybernats' the headline in the Herald.

Seems to have had a mixed response from some of the replies to Angus Robertsons plea. Most seem to think he is wrong.

[Just Alf]

https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1124957223019352064?s=19

'War on Cybernats' the headline in the Herald.

Seems to have had a mixed response from some of the replies to Angus Robertsons plea. Most seem to think he is wrong.We must be reading different threads.. Most seem to agree but are a bit miffed that the 'britnat' equivalent is simply a wee 4 liner at the end of the article... Anyways... Games on! GGTTH!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[McD]

Perhaps it's just me. But trying to pick up sarcasm through text is a little more challenging than it is in person? :dunno:

You said "neither of those things is a Scottish election, Scottish manifesto or Scottish Parliament." Referring to the Scottish and EU referendums. So yes, you were saying that they're not the same things and I agree with you. But it completely overlooks the fact that these things are quite clearly relevant where referendums are concerned.

I responded to your response and you're the one making a straw man argument, because you don't like the response I gave. Calling it "irrelevant" ignores fact and attempts to brush my point aside. When everybody knows full well that it's quite clearly relevant.



Yes it is just you. There’s many examples across this thread and many other on the holy ground forum, and no I won’t provide examples for you. Have a look for yourself.


And no, you are the one who shifted the goal posts after I replied to your original point, and you’re now going down the childish ‘no it wasn’t me, it was you’ playground attempt to get out of it. You explicitly spoke about voting results, which was what was replied to. You then changed that to make a snidey comment about election manifestos. Yes, these things are linked (I even said that), however were and are irrelevant to the voting outcome of the 2014 and 2016 referendums. No one voted in 2014 with knowledge of the SNP’s future manifesto plans (in fact, had the result gone the other way, the manifesto would have been unrecognisable from what it turned out to be), nor did anyone vote in 2016 in relation to an SNP manifesto. Or whoever was or is in Scottish parliament. We all voted based on what we wanted to.


You made the point that the voting outcome of 2016 should not be ignored. I simply replied (even saying “playing devils advocate”!), that the same should be the case for 2014. There was no element of manifestos or Scottish Parliament in those points. Until you couldn’t handle someone applying your own logic back on you, which doesn’t suit your agenda (and to be clear, I’m not referring to Yes voters, the SNP, or anyone else except you specifically), so you’ve tried hard to twist the argument to suit your agenda again. Straw man. Perhaps you should look up the definition :wink: (for clarity, that’s sarcasm)


I won’t be responding, you aren’t interested in discussion or debate, just for people to agree with your slant on the world, or you’ll try to talk down at them and twist the conversation to suit your own perspective.

Have a nice day (that’s not sarcasm, just genuine)

[James310]

We must be reading different threads.. Most seem to agree but are a bit miffed that the 'britnat' equivalent is simply a wee 4 liner at the end of the article... Anyways... Games on! GGTTH!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

https://twitter.com/NeilMackay/status/1125105135779287046?s=19


The author of the article (an Indy supporter) has today received guess what? A load of abuse.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/NeilMackay/status/1125105135779287046?s=19


The author of the article (an Indy supporter) has today received guess what? A load of abuse.

You're attempts to smear the independence movement as some kind of xenophobic mob is embarrassing. Yes there are some nutters amongst the millions of decent citizens wanting home rule. But that's the difference between both groups, Scottish nationalists will march peacefully through towns with a minority of nutters, your mob do parades with flutes and drums with the sole purpose of agitating the opposition to remind them of their sectarian supremism.

[James310]

You're attempts to smear the independence movement as some kind of xenophobic mob is embarrassing. Yes there are some nutters amongst the millions of decent citizens wanting home rule. But that's the difference between both groups, Scottish nationalists will march peacefully through towns with a minority of nutters, your mob do parades with flutes and drums with the sole purpose of agitating the opposition to remind them of their sectarian supremism.

Very good.

Yes I must apologise for commenting on one of the main stories of the day and headline news in the papers. It's obviously such a non issue that senior SNP members have chosen to speak out about it today.

If it's not a big issue right now, why have 3 senior SNP members chosen to highlight this? Surely if its not a big deal you just ignore it? Like what you would prefer I think.

[Hibrandenburg]

Very good.

Yes I must apologise for commenting on one of the main stories of the day and headline news in the papers. It's obviously such a non issue that senior SNP members have chosen to speak out about it today.

If it's not a big issue right now, why have 3 senior SNP members chosen to highlight this? Surely if its not a big deal you just ignore it? Like what you would prefer I think.

I'd prefer honest debate. You obviously prefer highlighting molehills and making mountains out of them to attempt to smear the opposition. Instead of magnifying the flaws in that what you don't believe, why don't you make the case for that what you believe?

[James310]

I'd prefer honest debate. You obviously prefer highlighting molehills and making mountains out of them to attempt to smear the opposition. Instead of magnifying the flaws in that what you don't believe, why don't you make the case for that what you believe?

Well I asked you some questions but you chose to ignore them. That's not how you debate.

It was headline news today and very topical, so how is that making a mountain out of a molehill? Commenting on the headlines of the day?

Again, if it's not a problem why are 3 senior SNP members having to raise this as a problem? If it's not a problem then surely it's not worthy of comment from such senior members.

[Tornadoes70]

You're attempts to smear the independence movement as some kind of xenophobic mob is embarrassing. Yes there are some nutters amongst the millions of decent citizens wanting home rule. But that's the difference between both groups, Scottish nationalists will march peacefully through towns with a minority of nutters, your mob do parades with flutes and drums with the sole purpose of agitating the opposition to remind them of their sectarian supremism.

Nationalists are by nature xenophobes.

You may wish to ignore it but its a fact.

Scottish Nationalists are no different from any other nationalists despite your wishful thinking.

You are a parody of 'whaes like us' type brigadoon scottishness which despite your denials is nutter nationalism.

Me i prefer to remain within the UK which is a perfect example of how non nationalists can get together and expel nationalist nutters.

[Tornadoes70]

We've managed to alienate racists why not do the same with 'nationalists'.

They're so alike in their rhetoric and stance.

The Snp are nationalistic and should be treated the same as racists are in my book.

Nationalism is vile.

[Fife-Hibee]

We've managed to alienate racists why not do the same with 'nationalists'.

They're so alike in their rhetoric and stance.

The Snp are nationalistic and should be treated the same as racists are in my book.

Nationalism is vile.

Yep, those vile European nationalists..... we should all get behind British n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶i̶s̶m̶ independence instead like you. :aok:

[RyeSloan]

You're attempts to smear the independence movement as some kind of xenophobic mob is embarrassing. Yes there are some nutters amongst the millions of decent citizens wanting home rule. But that's the difference between both groups, Scottish nationalists will march peacefully through towns with a minority of nutters, your mob do parades with flutes and drums with the sole purpose of agitating the opposition to remind them of their sectarian supremism.

Loving the ‘your mob’ stuff.

Sums up the debate. Seems like if your are not for Indy you are a now a flute and drum sectarian supremacist.

Started with being a Unionist, then a Yoon and now a Flute n Drum.

Catchy for sure but wow the desire to delineate between them and us seems ever more persuasive.

And to think just a few years ago people bemoaned the fact that every political party wanted to occupy the middle ground. How times have changed.

[Fife-Hibee]

Loving the ‘your mob’ stuff.

Sums up the debate. Seems like if your are not for Indy you are a now a flute and drum sectarian supremacist.

Started with being a Unionist, then a Yoon and now a Flute n Drum.

Catchy for sure but wow the desire to delineate between them and us seems ever more persuasive.

And to think just a few years ago people bemoaned the fact that every political party wanted to occupy the middle ground. How times have changed.

Loving the 'nasty nat' stuff.

Sums up the debate. Seems like if you are not for staying in the UK you are now a skirt wearing, bagpipe blowing, anglophobic supremacist.

Started with being a separatist, then a traitor and now a cybernat.

Catchy for sure, but wow, the desire to delineate between them and us seems ever more persuasive.

[Just Alf]

We've managed to alienate racists why not do the same with 'nationalists'.

They're so alike in their rhetoric and stance.

The Snp are nationalistic and should be treated the same as racists are in my book.

Nationalism is vile.If I get this right, because people (of all creeds and colours) would prefer to have political decisions made more locally to better reflect the local needs (one size doesn't fit all) then they're racist?

So my English family in Durham who are wanting some kind of devolution are racist?

Hmmm...

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[Hiber-nation]

If I get this right, because people (of all creeds and colours) would prefer to have political decisions made more locally to better reflect the local needs (one size doesn't fit all) then they're racist?

So my English family in Durham who are wanting some kind of devolution are racist?

Hmmm...

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I'm not sure how he'd class the 2 English SNP voters I know.

[James310]

Loving the 'nasty nat' stuff.

Sums up the debate. Seems like if you are not for staying in the UK you are now a skirt wearing, bagpipe blowing, anglophobic supremacist.

Started with being a separatist, then a traitor and now a cybernat.

Catchy for sure, but wow, the desire to delineate between them and us seems ever more persuasive.

I have been clear it's a minority, but it's a problem minority. It's actually such a big problem that senior SNP members are having to come out year after year and say enough, it's damaging the cause. If it was not a problem why the headline news yesterday?

The loonies on the Unionist side are pretty much dismissed as just that, but there seems to be a notion that if you critisise one Indy person you are somehow critising the cause as a whole.

Most people agree that Wings is a pretty unsavoury character? Yet he still has many SNP MPs and MSPs who follow him, why is that? If there was an equivalent of Wings on the Unionist side do you really think the likes of Theresa May and Ruth Davidson would be engaging with them on social media?

I am off to practice my flute now. Don't tell them I am Roman Catholic though.

[Mon Dieu4]

I have been clear it's a minority, but it's a problem minority. It's actually such a big problem that senior SNP members are having to come out year after year and say enough, it's damaging the cause. If it was not a problem why the headline news yesterday?

The loonies on the Unionist side are pretty much dismissed as just that, but there seems to be a notion that if you critisise one Indy person you are somehow critising the cause as a whole.

Most people agree that Wings is a pretty unsavoury character? Yet he still has many SNP MPs and MSPs who follow him, why is that? If there was an equivalent of Wings on the Unionist side do you really think the likes of Theresa May and Ruth Davidson would be engaging with them on social media?

I am off to practice my flute now. Don't tell them I am Roman Catholic though.

Following someone doesn't mean you like or agree with them, that's half the problem with all this stuff today, people stuck in their own echo chamber just hearing what they want to hear which makes them think they are always right, I follow people I disagree with on everything but it's good to see what they are up to and get balanced views on things

[The Modfather]

Nationalists are by nature xenophobes.

You may wish to ignore it but its a fact.

Scottish Nationalists are no different from any other nationalists despite your wishful thinking.

You are a parody of 'whaes like us' type brigadoon scottishness which despite your denials is nutter nationalism.

Me i prefer to remain within the UK which is a perfect example of how non nationalists can get together and expel nationalist nutters.

You talked more sense when you had your bot like Richard Leonard slogans.

Bring back Ignsh!

[James310]

Following someone doesn't mean you like or agree with them, that's half the problem with all this stuff today, people stuck in their own echo chamber just hearing what they want to hear which makes them think they are always right, I follow people I disagree with on everything but it's good to see what they are up to and get balanced views on things

So Theresa May would been fine to follow Tommy Robinson? Don't think so.

Again if it's not an issue why have 3 senior SNP members felt the need to raise this? Nobody seems to want to answer this.

[Mon Dieu4]

So Theresa May would been fine to follow Tommy Robinson? Don't think so.

Again if it's not an issue why have 3 senior SNP members felt the need to raise this? Nobody seems to want to answer this.

Would be pretty hard since he's banned from all social media

You could argue with yourself in a phonebox, your a prime example of what I'm talking about, never seem to admit when you are wrong even when people have provided evidence to the contrary

It's really ok not to know everything and be wrong every now and again, it's how you learn

There are folk on these threads that will never agree on anything but it just keeps going round and round and round, we get it you hate the SNP

[Just Alf]

So Theresa May would been fine to follow Tommy Robinson? Don't think so.

Again if it's not an issue why have 3 senior SNP members felt the need to raise this? Nobody seems to want to answer this.If May was pulling him up about stuff he says then yes, why not.

It seems to me that the narrative here should be "the SNP are addressing their loonies why aren't the other parties doing the same?"

Why isn't it?

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[JeMeSouviens]

I'd prefer honest debate. You obviously prefer highlighting molehills and making mountains out of them to attempt to smear the opposition. Instead of magnifying the flaws in that what you don't believe, why don't you make the case for that what you believe?

:agree:

It's actually quite sad that someone who is obviously so motivated by his love of Britain that he would write or copy from literally any anti-SNP position, from the most extreme lefty radical to the most authoritarian conservative, can't find a single positive thing to say about the beloved Union.

[JeMeSouviens]

Following someone doesn't mean you like or agree with them, that's half the problem with all this stuff today, people stuck in their own echo chamber just hearing what they want to hear which makes them think they are always right, I follow people I disagree with on everything but it's good to see what they are up to and get balanced views on things

Me too, I follow loads of political stuff including Unionist journos like Alex Massie, Hugo Rifkind, David Torrance, Fraser Nelson. If they have interesting angles to share then why not?

[James310]

Would be pretty hard since he's banned from all social media

You could argue with yourself in a phonebox, your a prime example of what I'm talking about, never seem to admit when you are wrong even when people have provided evidence to the contrary

It's really ok not to know everything and be wrong every now and again, it's how you learn

There are folk on these threads that will never agree on anything but it just keeps going round and round and round, we get it you hate the SNP

What am I wrong about? I have an opinion. It's not wrong though. You might not agree with it.

[James310]

If May was pulling him up about stuff he says then yes, why not.

It seems to me that the narrative here should be "the SNP are addressing their loonies why aren't the other parties doing the same?"

Why isn't it?

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Because it does not effect the cause as much, people don't say I am not voting No cause of those loonies on the Unionist side. Clearly the SNP think there are people influenced by the loonies on the Yes side and its holding them back, so they have spoken out.

[Moulin Yarns]

Very good.

Yes I must apologise for commenting on one of the main stories of the day and headline news in the papers. It's obviously such a non issue that senior SNP members have chosen to speak out about it today.

If it's not a big issue right now, why have 3 senior SNP members chosen to highlight this? Surely if its not a big deal you just ignore it? Like what you would prefer I think.

At least they are acting, must have had a word with Leeann 😉

[JeMeSouviens]

If May was pulling him up about stuff he says then yes, why not.

It seems to me that the narrative here should be "the SNP are addressing their loonies why aren't the other parties doing the same?"

Why isn't it?

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Because the broadcast and especitally the print media pushing the "mad cybernat" angle is overwhelmingly Unionist. I think the reality is probably pretty even although tbh I wouldn't dream of trying to enter into discussion on twitter, it just doesn't look worth it. Given the demographics you would expect there to be a good bit more online activity on the Yes side.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yep, those vile European nationalists..... we should all get behind British n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶i̶s̶m̶ independence instead like you. :aok:

Good response, I would just hit the report button 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

So Theresa May would been fine to follow Tommy Robinson? Don't think so.

Again if it's not an issue why have 3 senior SNP members felt the need to raise this? Nobody seems to want to answer this.

At least they are acting on it. How are the nasty right wing tory members doing in halting xenophobia in their party? Asking for a friend 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

:agree:

It's actually quite sad that someone who is obviously so motivated by his love of Britain that he would write or copy from literally any anti-SNP position, from the most extreme lefty radical to the most authoritarian conservative, can't find a single positive thing to say about the beloved Union.

👍

[James310]

Remember I am not the one advocating massive change, the onus is on the people wanting that change to prove that is the best thing for us.

Say you have a conservatory and your very happy with that conservatory but a salesman comes to your door and says you need a new conservatory. You as the customer don't make a case as to why you want to keep the conservatory you have, you expect the salesman to sell you the positive reasons why you need this new conservatory, he won't sit you down and ask you to make a positive case to why you don't need a new conservatory. That's not a very good salesperson.

Now you may says it's faulty but that's your opinion, not a fact. Again lots of people on here get strongly held opinions mixed up with facts. Just cause you strongly believe something does not make it a fact for everyone else.

I think the 2 main things for me are the economics don't add up, I believe we will be worse off so thats a reason to remain as part of the UK and the most important reason is I don't believe in seperation with the the people we have so much in common with (as proved on the other thread) and rather than seperating we should continue to work together.

[Hibrandenburg]

At least they are acting on it. How are the nasty right wing tory members doing in halting xenophobia in their party? Asking for a friend 😉

My friend is also rather interested.

[ronaldo7]

Remember I am not the one advocating massive change, the onus is on the people wanting that change to prove that is the best thing for us.

Say you have a conservatory and your very happy with that conservatory but a salesman comes to your door and says you need a new conservatory. You as the customer don't make a case as to why you want to keep the conservatory you have, you expect the salesman to sell you the positive reasons why you need this new conservatory, he won't sit you down and ask you to make a positive case to why you don't need a new conservatory. That's not a very good salesperson.

Now you may says it's faulty but that's your opinion, not a fact. Again lots of people on here get strongly held opinions mixed up with facts. Just cause you strongly believe something does not make it a fact for everyone else.

I think the 2 main things for me are the economics don't add up, I believe we will be worse off so thats a reason to remain as part of the UK and the most important reason is I don't believe in seperation with the the people we have so much in common with (as proved on the other thread) and rather than seperating we should continue to work together.

The cooncil have just turned up at your door and told you to rip the conservatory down, as your planning permission was invalid. You said something on it in 2014, which was a blatant lie.

[Jack Hackett]

Remember I am not the one advocating massive change, the onus is on the people wanting that change to prove that is the best thing for us.

Say you have a conservatory and your very happy with that conservatory but a salesman comes to your door and says you need a new conservatory. You as the customer don't make a case as to why you want to keep the conservatory you have, you expect the salesman to sell you the positive reasons why you need this new conservatory, he won't sit you down and ask you to make a positive case to why you don't need a new conservatory. That's not a very good salesperson.

Now you may says it's faulty but that's your opinion, not a fact. Again lots of people on here get strongly held opinions mixed up with facts. Just cause you strongly believe something does not make it a fact for everyone else.

I think the 2 main things for me are the economics don't add up, I believe we will be worse off so thats a reason to remain as part of the UK and the most important reason is I don't believe in seperation with the the people we have so much in common with (as proved on the other thread) and rather than seperating we should continue to work together.

I'm taking that as a reference to the discussion we had the other day (the one where I was branded a racist) where you made the same claim. Remind me how you 'proved' the commonality.

[James310]

I'm taking that as a reference to the discussion we had the other day (the one where I was branded a racist) where you made the same claim. Remind me how you 'proved' the commonality.

With the fact based research papers. Go back and read the thread.

[Jack Hackett]

With the fact based research papers. Go back and read the thread.

I've done that. Not seeing anything other than opinions, certainly no 'fact based research papers'

[James310]

I've done that. Not seeing anything other than opinions, certainly no 'fact based research papers'

Here is one to get you started.

http://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/do-scotland-and-england-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration/

It's full of facts and based on research.

Does that mean your owned? 😂

[stoneyburn hibs]

The cooncil have just turned up at your door and told you to rip the conservatory down, as your planning permission was invalid. You said something on it in 2014, which was a blatant lie.

😁

[Jack Hackett]

Here is one to get you started.

http://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/do-scotland-and-england-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration/

It's full of facts and based on research.

For one, it's about a single issue, and based on a survey where analysis shows similarity among certain demographics. How this equates to overall commonality eludes me, but then I'm not cherry-picking the bits that agree with my point of view. Must do better I'm afraid

Edit

... and no, you don't get to 'own' me with that ;)

[JeMeSouviens]

The cooncil have just turned up at your door and told you to rip the conservatory down, as your planning permission was invalid. You said something on it in 2014, which was a blatant lie.

The Polish builder who was going to come round and fix your conservatory roof has got so pissed off being abused by the neighbours that he's gone home and there's nobody else young enough around to go up the ladders.

[JeMeSouviens]

The population of Scotland has as much commonality with that of Ireland as it does with that of England or Wales. The way Ireland works together with England, Wales and the rest of Europe through the framework of the EU seems infinitely preferable to the way Scotland tries to via asymmetric devolution in a unitary state.

[James310]

The cooncil have just turned up at your door and told you to rip the conservatory down, as your planning permission was invalid. You said something on it in 2014, which was a blatant lie.

The White Paper, or sales brochure you gave me, was full of fanstay, so if the new conservatory was put up then the new one would need to be ripped out and the old one reinstated under the Consumer Rights Act for delivery of items not as described and unfit for purpose.

18 months and £150M to set up a new country? Was that just a guess or deliberately misleading? How much was the barrel of oil again? I think it was only something like £30BN in revenue we would have been down based on the sales brochure. We now know that in 2016-17, when the sales brochure forecast oil revenues of £6.8-7.9bn, the actual figure was just £0.2bn. How would that shortfall have been made up? Just as well we never had to find out, might have had to asked the rest of the UK for a bailout.

[Smartie]

Alastair Darling says you can't use the conservatory.

[Fife-Hibee]

I have been clear it's a minority, but it's a problem minority. It's actually such a big problem that senior SNP members are having to come out year after year and say enough, it's damaging the cause. If it was not a problem why the headline news yesterday?

The loonies on the Unionist side are pretty much dismissed as just that, but there seems to be a notion that if you critisise one Indy person you are somehow critising the cause as a whole.

Most people agree that Wings is a pretty unsavoury character? Yet he still has many SNP MPs and MSPs who follow him, why is that? If there was an equivalent of Wings on the Unionist side do you really think the likes of Theresa May and Ruth Davidson would be engaging with them on social media?

I am off to practice my flute now. Don't tell them I am Roman Catholic though.

There are equivelants. The National Front, Britain First, the BNP, the Orange Order and now the "too racist for UKIP" a force for good.

MPs and councilors stood toe to toe with some of them in 2014. Not to mention councilors actively donating tax payers money to Orange Order events and turning up to them as well.

[James310]

A SNP MSP and Councillor would never stand next and pose for photos with an Irish Republican Terror group? Would they?

I am sure we could swap tales of the various things politcians have done. But my overall point is they are all pretty much the same. But there seems to be a similar tendancy to paint the SNP politcians as some kind of moral guardians. But like we discussed on the other thread they are all very alike.

[Fife-Hibee]

A SNP MSP and Councillor would never stand next and pose for photos with an Irish Republican Terror group? Would they?

I am sure we could swap tales of the various things politcians have done. But my overall point is they are all pretty much the same. But there seems to be a similar tendancy to paint the SNP politcians as some kind of moral guardians. But like we discussed on the other thread they are all very alike.

If they are "all very alike". Are you suggesting that they would all stand toe to toe with terror groups? Also, I think you'll find that people have different views on what constitutes as terror groups. I personally view the British Armed Forces as a major one.

[James310]

If they are "all very alike". Are you suggesting that they would all stand toe to toe with terror groups? Also, I think you'll find that people have different views on what constitutes as terror groups. I personally view the British Armed Forces as a major one.

That's definitely a debate for another thread.

[Fife-Hibee]

That's definitely a debate for another thread.

Perhaps, but it's still relevant to the point you are making. It all comes down to personal perspectives at the end of the day. Do I support SNP MPs or any other MPs standing toe to toe with the IRA or other such groups? Absolutely not. Because regardless of whether I regard them as terrorist groups or not doesn't matter. The fact is other people will and it can only harm the cause.

[Just Alf]

A SNP MSP and Councillor would never stand next and pose for photos with an Irish Republican Terror group? Would they?

I am sure we could swap tales of the various things politcians have done. But my overall point is they are all pretty much the same. But there seems to be a similar tendancy to paint the SNP politcians as some kind of moral guardians. But like we discussed on the other thread they are all very alike.

Would you not agree that it's better to try to do something than not to try?

It's feeling like, at the moment, because the SNP have decided to highlight the issue you're using that as an excuse to have a go at them?... Apologies if you've raised the lack of action on behalf of the Tories & Labour on their respective threads and I've missed it.

[ronaldo7]

The White Paper, or sales brochure you gave me, was full of fanstay, so if the new conservatory was put up then the new one would need to be ripped out and the old one reinstated under the Consumer Rights Act for delivery of items not as described and unfit for purpose.

18 months and £150M to set up a new country? Was that just a guess or deliberately misleading? How much was the barrel of oil again? I think it was only something like £30BN in revenue we would have been down based on the sales brochure. We now know that in 2016-17, when the sales brochure forecast oil revenues of £6.8-7.9bn, the actual figure was just £0.2bn. How would that shortfall have been made up? Just as well we never had to find out, might have had to asked the rest of the UK for a bailout.

The brochure I gave you was exactly that. You decided to go with a rogue builder who erected your conservatory unsatisfactorily. Don't come moaning to me about the lack of a roof. You should have went with the independent Scottish company, rather than those spivs from south of the border, who promised to keep you in the family of nations, our precious European Union.

[James310]

The brochure I gave you was exactly that. You decided to go with a rogue builder who erected your conservatory unsatisfactorily. Don't come moaning to me about the lack of a roof. You should have went with the independent Scottish company, rather than those spivs from south of the border, who promised to keep you in the family of nations, our precious European Union.

Deflect deflect etc etc and so on.

Nobody likes the dodgy salesman.

So how would we have filled that £30BN gap?

[The Modfather]

My mother in law has a conservatory

[Fife-Hibee]

Deflect deflect etc etc and so on.

Nobody likes the dodgy salesman.

So how would we have filled that £30BN gap?

How are we filling the "30BN gap" right now? Or are you a believer of the myth that Scotland is just handed free money with zero liability?

[James310]

How are we filling the "30BN gap" right now? Or are you a believer of the myth that Scotland is just handed free money with zero liability?

Well luckily we have the resources of the whole UK to lighten that blow. Pooling and sharing really works in those circumstances.

But give it a go, in an Indy Scotland how would we have filled that £30BN gap?

[Fife-Hibee]

Well luckily we have the resources of the whole UK to lighten that blow. Pooling and sharing really works in those circumstances.

But give it a go, in an Indy Scotland how would we have filled that £30BN gap?

That's a complete over simplification and you know it. The pooling and sharing is nothing more than soundbite nonsense for those who are too lazy to even attempt to understand the complexities between the Scottish economy and the UK wide economy.

Just like the subsidy soundbites and the claim that Scotland is subsidized to the tune of billions at the expense of the English taxpayer. Which would make zero economic or political sense from a UK Government perspective when parties have a UK wide electorate to try and win over.

Your "gap" is based on the idea that we are currently heavily subsidized and handed FREE money with zero liability. An idea that comes from having zero understanding of the complex relationship that Scotland shares with the UK wide economy.

[James310]

That's a complete over simplification and you know it. The pooling and sharing is nothing more than soundbite nonsense for those who are too lazy to even attempt to understand the complexities between the Scottish economy and the UK wide economy.

Just like the subsidy soundbites and the claim that Scotland is subsidized to the tune of billions at the expense of the English taxpayer. Which would make zero economic or political sense from a UK Government perspective when parties have a UK wide electorate to try and win over.

Your "gap" is based on the idea that we are currently heavily subsidized and handed FREE money with zero liability. An idea that comes from having zero understanding of the complex relationship that Scotland shares with the UK wide economy.

So is that a long way of saying no you would not know how an Independent Scotland, that was no longer part of the UK, would have funded that gap. At the end of the day there would have been a £30BN black hole.

[Fife-Hibee]

So is that a long way of saying no you would not know how an Independent Scotland, that was no longer part of the UK, would have funded that gap. At the end of the day there would have been a £30BN black hole.

The "black hole" already exists. Just as the UK's own "black hole" exists. What are you suggesting? That the UK Government fills that "black hole" in for us?

They don't. It's still very much there whether we're in or out of the UK. The "pooling and sharing" doesn't eliminate the "black hole" whatsoever.

[James310]

The "black hole" already exists. Just as the UK's own "black hole" exists. What are you suggesting? That the UK Government fills that "black hole" in for us?

They don't. It's still very much there whether we're in or out of the UK. The "pooling and sharing" doesn't eliminate the "black hole" whatsoever.

It's shared across the whole of the UK, making it easier to absord. Fact still stands as an Independent nation we would have had a £30BN budget problem.

You can go back and forth if you like, but that's a fact.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's shared across the whole of the UK, making it easier to absord. Fact still stands as an Independent nation we would have had a £30BN budget problem.

You can go back and forth if you like, but that's a fact.

Fact still stands that as part of the UK, we still have the budget problem, just with less control over how to deal with it.

Please explain to me how it's "easier to absorb" just because we're part of the UK?

Going by that logic, we should leave the UK, remain in the EU and that way it can be "absorbed" by a far greater number of people.

[James310]

Fact still stands that as part of the UK, we still have the budget problem, just with less control over how to deal with it.

Please explain to me how it's "easier to absorb" just because we're part of the UK?

Going by that logic, we should leave the UK, remain in the EU and that way it can be "absorbed" by a far greater number of people.

How about in the UK and the EU, best of both worlds. Its easier to absorb because we are part of something bigger, that pretty obvious isn't it? The bigger you are the bigger 'shocks' you can take.

[Fife-Hibee]

How about in the UK and the EU
That's clearly not the option being presented here. Considering the 2 largest political parties in the UK are led by people who are bickering over who has the better "deal".


best of both worlds.
Where have I heard that one before?..... Can't quite place my finger on it.


Its easier to absorb because we are part of something bigger, that pretty obvious isn't it? The bigger you are the bigger 'shocks' you can take.
It's obvious if you're being overly simplistic, yes. Likewise, I could say that there are more shocks to deal with because we are part of something bigger. They say lightening doesn't strike the same thing twice. Try telling that to the earth.

[JeMeSouviens]

Would you not agree that it's better to try to do something than not to try?

It's feeling like, at the moment, because the SNP have decided to highlight the issue you're using that as an excuse to have a go at them?... Apologies if you've raised the lack of action on behalf of the Tories & Labour on their respective threads and I've missed it.

It actually suits the Unionist side to drag the debate as far down as they can. Poison the well in the hope that people will switch off, declare both sides as bad as each other. People who have stopped listening can’t be persuaded.

You can see the tactic in action here.

[Fife-Hibee]

It actually suits the Unionist side to drag the debate as far down as they can. Poison the well in the hope that people will switch off, declare both sides as bad as each other. People who have stopped listening can’t be persuaded.

You can see the tactic in action here.

:agree:

Goes hand in hand with all the mind numbing soundbites. It's their way of bascially saying "Don't get wrapped up in the complex details, just know that we're better together and we'll do all the real thinking for you."

[ronaldo7]

Deflect deflect etc etc and so on.

Nobody likes the dodgy salesman.

So how would we have filled that £30BN gap?

Dodgy salesman you say? You're trying your best though, that's all that matters. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

Where does this £30bn figure come from? Is it made up?


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[Fife-Hibee]

Where does this £30bn figure come from? Is it made up?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would guess it comes from a combination of the deficit, the fantasy subsidy and economic damage from brexit all rolled up into one. In other words, it's complete hot air designed to create a completely unrealistic negative assumption about Scottish Independence. The idea that we would mysteriously be 30 billion out of pocket if we leave the UK would be absolutely hilarious if so many didn't actually buy into it.

[James310]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/gap-between-snp-s-2014-plans-and-north-sea-revenue-reaches-30bn-1-4800803/amp

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-41011648

[Fife-Hibee]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/gap-between-snp-s-2014-plans-and-north-sea-revenue-reaches-30bn-1-4800803/amp

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-41011648

So in other words, there would have been a 30 billion pound black hole had oil prices continued at their record low, which they quite clearly haven't. If Scotland were to declare independence right now, there wouldn't be a 30 billion pound black hole like you're suggesting.

This is from another BBC link included in the BBC article you linked regarding the GERS figures.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41023308


Does Gers tell us what an independent Scotland would look like?

No. The Gers figures are not meant to be anything other than a way of showing the current position under the present arrangements.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/gap-between-snp-s-2014-plans-and-north-sea-revenue-reaches-30bn-1-4800803/amp

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-41011648

Ah, so being part of the union means we are doing worse than the rest of the UK. Doesn’t seem like we should be staying in such a union?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

Here's food for thought. The cost of gas at the pump is pretty much back where it was when the cost per barrel was at it's highest in history. So despite the massive slump in the cost per barrel, people are paying what they were when it was at it's record high.

Why doesn't the UK Government tax the hell out of these suppliers who are making larger profit margins than ever before?

I'll tell you why. Because at least 8.4% of the tax revenue raised from these profits would be recieved by the Scottish Government via Barnett consequentials.

Can't have that now, can we?

[Moulin Yarns]

Deflect deflect etc etc and so on.

Nobody likes the dodgy salesman.

So how would we have filled that £30BN gap?

Oh, it's 30bn now, you've realised your mistake at last. 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

So is that a long way of saying no you would not know how an Independent Scotland, that was no longer part of the UK, would have funded that gap. At the end of the day there would have been a £30BN black hole.

Make yer mind up Jimmy. When you first mentioned a currency reserve (not black hole, you only find them in space) it was 300bn, what has changed your mind. Asking for a friend 😊

[Just Alf]

All this talk of oil prices/income etc reminded me of an article I read on the business for Scotland website (referenced HMRC data amongst others), this is only exports and doesn't include any services/oil production sold within the UK.

"Oil and gas exports are also performing well and with the price of oil at $71.00 as I write this, we should see the value of oil exports increase again next year.**Oil and gas supply chain companies have also been looking to find contracts further afield therefor exporting the world leading expertise they have developed in the North Sea. In the last year we have figures for, 2016, supply chain company exports amounted to £4.6 billion almost matching the £4.65 billion in actual oil and gas exports."

@ James310, where did you get the £0.2 billion figure from? I'm keen to have a look and try to understand the seeming discrepancy.

http://www.businessforscotland.com/independent-scotland-will-be-an-international-exporting-powerhouse/

There's links to the relevant hmrc/UK.Gov data on the links page at the bottom







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[James310]

All this talk of oil prices/income etc reminded me of an article I read on the business for Scotland website (referenced HMRC data amongst others), this is only exports and doesn't include any services/oil production sold within the UK.

"Oil and gas exports are also performing well and with the price of oil at $71.00 as I write this, we should see the value of oil exports increase again next year.**Oil and gas supply chain companies have also been looking to find contracts further afield therefor exporting the world leading expertise they have developed in the North Sea. In the last year we have figures for, 2016, supply chain company exports amounted to £4.6 billion almost matching the £4.65 billion in actual oil and gas exports."

@ James310, where did you get the £0.2 billion figure from? I'm keen to have a look and try to understand the seeming discrepancy.

http://www.businessforscotland.com/independent-scotland-will-be-an-international-exporting-powerhouse/

There's links to the relevant hmrc/UK.Gov data on the links page at the bottom







Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Are we talking about the same thing? Oil revenue?

It was a New Statesman article (I have the link if you want it, but no doubt as its a right wing pro union publication it will somehow be wrong) but its referenced in other sources as well.

https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/north-sea/179721/scotlands-oil-revenues-jump-by-1billion/


"It shows revenues from the oil and gas sector were up by more than £1bn from just £266million in 2016-17"

I think the governments own statistics has it at £36M though for 2016-2017.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-2017-18/pages/4/


That Business for Scotland article was proven to be mostly false.

https://theferret.scot/scotland-uk-c...export-import/

And before anyone says but what a great year last year was then yes it was, it's great we can pool our resources so when we have bad years we share the burden with the rest of the UK.

[Fife-Hibee]

And before anyone says but what a great year last year was then yes it was, it's great we can pool our resources so when we have bad years we share the burden with the rest of the UK.

So when we have bad years, the UK helps us out. When we have good years, we help rUK out.

But if our good years can ultimately more than make up for the bad years, then why do we need rUK?

[JeMeSouviens]

Ah, so being part of the union means we are doing worse than the rest of the UK. Doesn’t seem like we should be staying in such a union?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Particularly one where our "subsidy" is at the whim of Tory governments. If the threat of independence is removed, Barnett will be "reformed" before you can say "Old Etonian" and Scotland's public services are going to be well and truly, right royally ****ed.

Independence will put us in a position where we have a limited timeframe to get our own house in order by achieving similar growth rates to other similarly sized EU countries. If we fail to do that under our own control we will end up in trouble. I'd far prefer that to being at the mercy of BoJo and chums putting us in exactly the same position on a populist English nationalist whim. We will be defenceless and they will be merciless.

[Just Alf]

Are we talking about the same thing? Oil revenue?

It was a New Statesman article (I have the link if you want it, but no doubt as its a right wing pro union publication it will somehow be wrong) but its referenced in other sources as well.

https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/north-sea/179721/scotlands-oil-revenues-jump-by-1billion/


"It shows revenues from the oil and gas sector were up by more than £1bn from just £266million in 2016-17"

I think the governments own statistics has it at £36M though for 2016-2017.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-2017-18/pages/4/


That Business for Scotland article was proven to be mostly false.

https://theferret.scot/scotland-uk-c...export-import/

And before anyone says but what a great year last year was then yes it was, it's great we can pool our resources so when we have bad years we share the burden with the rest of the UK.Thanks for the links, it's good to get a wider view on this stuff.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Good news for once

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48191110

[allmodcons]

Are we talking about the same thing? Oil revenue?

It was a New Statesman article (I have the link if you want it, but no doubt as its a right wing pro union publication it will somehow be wrong) but its referenced in other sources as well.

https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/north-sea/179721/scotlands-oil-revenues-jump-by-1billion/


"It shows revenues from the oil and gas sector were up by more than £1bn from just £266million in 2016-17"

I think the governments own statistics has it at £36M though for 2016-2017.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-2017-18/pages/4/


That Business for Scotland article was proven to be mostly false.

https://theferret.scot/scotland-uk-c...export-import/

And before anyone says but what a great year last year was then yes it was, it's great we can pool our resources so when we have bad years we share the burden with the rest of the UK.

Thanks for all the links. Here's one from the Financial Times via WoS. I don't particularly like Stuart Campbell the individual but he does make some good contributions to the Independence debate.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/

I think we can all agree that Norway, a small Independent Country, has managed it's oil wealth 'slightly' better than the UK Government have over the last 50 years? I'm sure Norwegians would love to share the 'burden' with a London centric dominant neighbour?

[Glory Lurker]

And before anyone says but what a great year last year was then yes it was, it's great we can pool our resources so when we have bad years we share the burden with the rest of the UK.

I'd rather we just had a stupendously huge oil fund.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd rather we just had a stupendously huge oil fund.

I wouldn't.

[Smartie]

I wouldn't.

I didn't think you'd be "glad we've used it to prop up a hopelessly imbalanced economy that primarily suits the South-East of England" camp over a "stupendously huge oil fund" camp?

[Moulin Yarns]

Remember I am not the one advocating massive change, the onus is on the people wanting that change to prove that is the best thing for us.

Say you have a conservatory and your very happy with that conservatory but a salesman comes to your door and says you need a new conservatory. You as the customer don't make a case as to why you want to keep the conservatory you have, you expect the salesman to sell you the positive reasons why you need this new conservatory, he won't sit you down and ask you to make a positive case to why you don't need a new conservatory. That's not a very good salesperson.

Now you may says it's faulty but that's your opinion, not a fact. Again lots of people on here get strongly held opinions mixed up with facts. Just cause you strongly believe something does not make it a fact for everyone else.

I think the 2 main things for me are the economics don't add up, I believe we will be worse off so thats a reason to remain as part of the UK and the most important reason is I don't believe in seperation with the the people we have so much in common with (as proved on the other thread) and rather than seperating we should continue to work together.

That's a great analogy.

You have a house, let's call it England, behind the house is a conservatory, an extension to the house, let's call the Conservatory Scotland. Attached to the side of the house is a garage, this could be wales, and the garden shed can be Northern Ireland, it has always been a bit shoogly and out on a limb.

Now, back when the conservatory was attached to house the builders were from the east, Norfolk, and were wanting to get back home so cut corners and the ties have loosened. As a result the conservatory is slowly drifting apart from the house. You can try and repair these ties before it is too late, how you do that is form stronger ties and bonds, not try to paper over the cracks that have appeared between the two.

Current Westminster policy appears to be papering over the cracks. Just look at the differences over Brexit.

"We are leaving the EU"

"we want to stay in the EU"

"tough, we're having talks with all other parties e.g. Labour"

"We have put forward decent alternatives that work for everyone"

"Tough, we are leaving the EU and we are taking back control of everything you do that come from the EU"

"That's against the Devolution agreement"

"Tough, we are doing so get back to Skye"

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd rather we just had a stupendously huge oil fund.

Typical ungrateful Jock. :rolleyes:

You got to pool all your oil wealth and then share in the (unemployment) benefits of Thatcherism. Broad shoulders'n'that, innit.

[TrinityHibs]

I logged in to get rid of the CR Smith conservatory advert. I would like to state that I have not been searching the dark web for specialist conservatory services and only randomly stumbled across vacuous conservatory analogies on Hibs.net. Who says they are not watching!!!

[Tornadoes70]

Are we talking about the same thing? Oil revenue?

It was a New Statesman article (I have the link if you want it, but no doubt as its a right wing pro union publication it will somehow be wrong) but its referenced in other sources as well.

https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/north-sea/179721/scotlands-oil-revenues-jump-by-1billion/


"It shows revenues from the oil and gas sector were up by more than £1bn from just £266million in 2016-17"

I think the governments own statistics has it at £36M though for 2016-2017.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-2017-18/pages/4/


That Business for Scotland article was proven to be mostly false.

https://theferret.scot/scotland-uk-c...export-import/

And before anyone says but what a great year last year was then yes it was, it's great we can pool our resources so when we have bad years we share the burden with the rest of the UK.

I agree with you.

Sharing risk with the rest of the UK allows Scotland to flourish.

If only we had a non snp greens Scottish Government that didn't use up all their energies into aggressively agitating for divisiveness in their agenda to separate and break away from the rest of the UK

We would probably ALL be much better off in terms of harmony and prosperity in getting rid of such a divisive nationalistic one.

[Moulin Yarns]

A good piece about the cyberbullying that was jumped on over the weekend

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/05/07/some-friendly-advice-to-the-snp-leadership/

I'm catching up with things after a few days of flu so bear with me if it's been covered

[Moulin Yarns]

I agree with you.

Sharing risk with the rest of the UK allows Scotland to flourish.

If only we had a non snp greens Scottish Government that didn't use up all their energies into aggressively agitating for divisiveness in their agenda to separate and break away from the rest of the UK

We would probably ALL be much better off in terms of harmony and prosperity in getting rid of such a divisive nationalistic one.

Maybe it is the dominant Westminster government that needs getting rid off. A true Scottish Labour might then flourish without the shackle of the UK party holding them back.

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh look, more snp nonsense.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48198098

They really need to stop doing the day job, it makes the opposition parties look ineffective 😂

[James310]

Oh look, more snp nonsense.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48198098

They really need to stop doing the day job, it makes the opposition parties look ineffective 😂

I thought you were a member of the Green Party but you seem to spend a lot of time defending and praising the SNP, is your party not one of the opposition parties you talk of?

[Moulin Yarns]

I thought you were a member of the Green Party but you seem to spend a lot of time defending and praising the SNP, is your party not one of the opposition parties you talk of?

Guess who proposed it years ago 🤔😉

If anything the snp are becoming more like the Greens.

[ronaldo7]

Oh look, more snp nonsense.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48198098

They really need to stop doing the day job, it makes the opposition parties look ineffective 😂

😂👌

[ronaldo7]

Guess who proposed it years ago 🤔😉

If anything the snp are becoming more like the Greens.

Next, you'll be moving out of the conservatory into the main hoose.

[Moulin Yarns]

😂👌

I wonder how it's going getting it introduced down south?

[James310]

Guess who proposed it years ago 🤔😉

If anything the snp are becoming more like the Greens.

I suppose that massive U turn on the APD was welcomed by the Greens. (Why not increase it?)

The CEO of Edinburgh Airport was less than impressed after being told personally it was still on track just 2 weeks ago. Although to be fair we never knew about this thing called climate change in 2016 when it was a SNP manifesto commitment. #usethemandate

[Fife-Hibee]

Oh look, more snp nonsense.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48198098

They really need to stop doing the day job, it makes the opposition parties look ineffective 😂

Some of the comments on there are a riot. :crazy:


What a totally stupid idea which could only have been dreamt up by a politician.
Must take my bottle back....20p back for the returned bottle, £3 in petrol to take the bottle back plus however much additional carbon/Nox etc this adds to the atmosphere.
Utterly moronic idea!

Does he think each bottle will need to be taken back one at a time? What about the genius idea of taking them ALL back to the shop when doing his next shop?

[Moulin Yarns]

I suppose that massive U turn on the APD was welcomed by the Greens. (Why not increase it?)

The CEO of Edinburgh Airport was less than impressed after being told personally it was still on track just 2 weeks ago. Although to be fair we never knew about this thing called climate change in 2016 when it was a SNP manifesto commitment. #usethemandate

You are impossible. I guess you would have preferred to passengers to come in. As for the sarcastic remark about climate change, it proves that there are still too many deniers.

Why not increase APD you ask, well for starters this is a replacement for APD known as Passenger Departure Tax. But let us not reduce it first and then we can take the next steps. As the saying goes Rome wasn't built in a day.

[James310]

Some of the comments on there are a riot. :crazy:



Does he think each bottle will need to be taken back one at a time? What about the genius idea of taking them ALL back to the shop when doing his next shop?

So basically 20p added to the cost of all drinks that are held in the bottles in scope? That's quite a price hike for most items.

I take it all the bottle recycling I do via my green bin will need to stop, if I want to claim back my 20p per bottle.

[James310]

You are impossible. I guess you would have preferred to passengers to come in. As for the sarcastic remark about climate change, it proves that there are still too many deniers.

Why not increase APD you ask, well for starters this is a replacement for APD known as Passenger Departure Tax. But let us not reduce it first and then we can take the next steps. As the saying goes Rome wasn't built in a day.

Impossible for pointing out a massive political u turn? Is that not fair game?

[Fife-Hibee]

So basically 20p added to the cost of all drinks that are held in the bottles in scope? That's quite a price hike for most items.
Better to return the bottles then.


I take it all the bottle recycling I do via my green bin will need to stop, if I want to claim back my 20p per bottle.
Not all plastics are included in the policy. So don't worry, you'll still need your green bin.


Impossible for pointing out a massive political u turn? Is that not fair game?

Depends on the spin you put on it. I personally applaud them for recognizing their mistakes and taking the concerns of the general public on board. I know several other parties that could learn a few things from this.

[Moulin Yarns]

Impossible for pointing out a massive political u turn? Is that not fair game?

It's not a U turn for the Greens though 😉

[James310]

It's not a U turn for the Greens though 😉

I never said it was though did I? I said it was a government u turn.

But your so determined to defend the SNP you made that comment, strange.

I think you need to think about what hat you have on when replying.

[Moulin Yarns]

So basically 20p added to the cost of all drinks that are held in the bottles in scope? That's quite a price hike for most items.

I take it all the bottle recycling I do via my green bin will need to stop, if I want to claim back my 20p per bottle.


The 20p is a deposit on the container not an increase in the price of contents but don't let the facts get in the way of your making this a bad policy.

Those of us who are of a certain age will remember collecting the empty juice bottles and returned them to the shop, or indeed Dunbar's plant at the south end of Easter Road.

[Mr Grieves]

Impossible for pointing out a massive political u turn? Is that not fair game?

Your political opinion on everything seems to be shaped by whatever offers you the opportunity to give the SNP a kicking. It's really quite sad.

[James310]

Better to return the bottles then.


Not all plastics are included in the policy. So don't worry, you'll still need your green bin.



Depends on the spin you put on it. I personally applaud them for recognizing their mistakes and taking the concerns of the general public on board. I know several other parties that could learn a few things from this.

I can see why it's being done but can imagine a few folk won't be happy with basically another tax. If your buying a bottle of juice at 60p then this 20p just adds a tax of 33% to it, is that right?

I guess it's just another recycling bin to manage, not the end of the world.

[James310]

Your political opinion on everything seems to be shaped by whatever offers you the opportunity to give the SNP a kicking. It's really quite sad.

That's your opinion, I guess you would be happy if they floated along with no critisism and no challenge.

I mean it's not like we have threads about the Labour Party and the Tories, so we should ban all threads about the SNP.

Do you not think the government should be held to account? I am sure you do, so in what way could we do it here in a way that meets with your approval?

I think the only sad person is you as you will sit on the sidelines contributing nothing and just chuck in little snidey comments. How sad.

[Moulin Yarns]

I never said it was though did I? I said it was a government u turn.

But your so determined to defend the SNP you made that comment, strange.

I think you need to think about what hat you have on when replying.

My hat is always green but I will always appreciate when others go down that route. When was the last time, or should that be first time, the tories came out with a green policy?

Fit cut and removed
Solar subsidies the same
Electric car subsidy, cut

Third Heathrow runway


I think you get the idea, climate change is real, and has been around for long enough for us to have tried to control it.

[James310]

My hat is always green but I will always appreciate when others go down that route. When was the last time, or should that be first time, the tories came out with a green policy?

Fit cut and removed
Solar subsidies the same
Electric car subsidy, cut

Third Heathrow runway


I think you get the idea, climate change is real, and has been around for long enough for us to have tried to control it.

Fair enough, just found it strange how you flip from mainly SNP to Greens. As I say I never said it was a green u turn but you were straight out the traps to criticise me.

[Tornadoes70]

Your political opinion on everything seems to be shaped by whatever offers you the opportunity to give the SNP a kicking. It's really quite sad.

Not sad whatsever.

Like me he doesn't agree with their divisive separatist agenda and has every right to give his opinion likewise separatist supporters are free to champion their cause or give other parties a 'kicking' as they do consistently on here.

Its called free speech.

Once their numbers are diminished and they the snp and their sidekicks the greens are eventually turfed out as being the devolved ruling party I'm certain thereafter no one will bother even mentioning them :greengrin

[James310]

Not sad whatsever.

Like me he doesn't agree with their divisive separatist agenda and has every right to give his opinion likewise separatist supporters are free to champion their cause.

Its called free speech.

Once they're numbers are diminished and they the snp and their sidekicks the greens are eventually turfed out as being the devolved ruling party I'm certain thereafter no one will bother even mentioning them :greengrin

But we have to have lots of comments about Scouts delivering leaflets for the Tories as that is like really important, but government u turns on big issues is 'sad' when commented on.

[Fife-Hibee]

I can see why it's being done but can imagine a few folk won't be happy with basically another tax. If your buying a bottle of juice at 60p then this 20p just adds a tax of 33% to it, is that right?

Not if you actually bother to return it when you're done with it, which is the whole point. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

I can see why it's being done but can imagine a few folk won't be happy with basically another tax. If your buying a bottle of juice at 60p then this 20p just adds a tax of 33% to it, is that right?

I guess it's just another recycling bin to manage, not the end of the world.

Wow!!! A softening of your stance against the snp. There is hope 😁

[Fife-Hibee]

Not sad whatsever.

Like me he doesn't agree with their divisive separatist agenda and has every right to give his opinion likewise separatist supporters are free to champion their cause or give other parties a 'kicking' as they do consistently on here.

Its called free speech.

So because somebody doesn't agree with the SNPs "divisive separatist agenda", that means they can't agree with any of their other policies and must therefore put a negative slant on any policies brought forward by the SNP? I'm pretty sure if this was a Labour policy, you would be hailing them as the great global saviours.


Once their numbers are diminished and they the snp and their sidekicks the greens are eventually turfed out as being the devolved ruling party I'm certain thereafter no one will bother even mentioning them :greengrin

Will that be when your beloved Labour join hands with the Tories at Holyrood to lock out an SNP Government?

[danhibees1875]

It's a good plan in theory I think. :agree: I already can't be bothered with the haul of a large box full of empty bottles down the stairs every couple of weeks to the recycling, taking it further to a shop isn't filling me with excitement but I can see the greater good.

I wonder if they could keep the current recycling bins and tot up the 20ps that people didn't go to the shop for and use it to to buy food for homeless people/some other good cause. :dunno:

[Fife-Hibee]

It's a good plan in theory I think. :agree: I already can't be bothered with the haul of a large box full of empty bottles down the stairs every couple of weeks to the recycling, taking it further to a shop isn't filling me with excitement but I can see the greater good.

I wonder if they could keep the current recycling bins and tot up the 20ps that people didn't go to the shop for and use it to to buy food for homeless people/some other good cause. :dunno:

The current recycling bins aren't going anywhere. The policy doesn't apply to all plastics, so you will still require that bin for some plastic wastes. The whole point of the policy is to get people "bothered". Because we really need to start getting "bothered".

[Ozyhibby]

I wonder how it's going getting it introduced down south?

Chris Grayling is just getting started on it now. Expect big things.


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[beensaidbefore]

Bottle return already work very well in Holland, I think. Adds about 5 euros on to a case of beer, but if you take the crate and the empties back you out it in the machine and get a receipt valued at 5 euros to be spent on the next case of beer.... Cant understand the problem.:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I can see why it's being done but can imagine a few folk won't be happy with basically another tax. If your buying a bottle of juice at 60p then this 20p just adds a tax of 33% to it, is that right?

I guess it's just another recycling bin to manage, not the end of the world.

Not if you return the bottle. The price remains the same.
It’s a charge on you discarding the bottle.


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[beensaidbefore]

The current recycling bins aren't going anywhere. The policy doesn't apply to all plastics, so you will still require that bin for some plastic wastes. The whole point of the policy is to get people "bothered". Because we really need to start getting "bothered".


Exactly. Nobody gave a **** about plastic bags until they started being charged 5p. 20p on a bottle should have a similar impact. Plus, if I was homeless/skint I'm sure I could make a few bob in a day picking up all the crap that is strewn round edinburgh. 100 empties = 20 quid!

[Hibrandenburg]

It's a good plan in theory I think. :agree: I already can't be bothered with the haul of a large box full of empty bottles down the stairs every couple of weeks to the recycling, taking it further to a shop isn't filling me with excitement but I can see the greater good.

I wonder if they could keep the current recycling bins and tot up the 20ps that people didn't go to the shop for and use it to to buy food for homeless people/some other good cause. :dunno:

That's actually an option over here in Germany. When you return your bottles to the returns machine, you have the option to either receive a voucher to the value of the returns or donate it to a charity.

Fwiw this system has been in place for years now and it works well. Some people still can't be arsed returning their bottles but the bottles don't lie around long as there's many people especially kids, go around collecting empties, at €0.25 a pop that can be a nice little earner especially around football stadiums or other event venues. Saves a fortune on cleaning up afterwards too.

[Hibrandenburg]

So basically 20p added to the cost of all drinks that are held in the bottles in scope? That's quite a price hike for most items.

I take it all the bottle recycling I do via my green bin will need to stop, if I want to claim back my 20p per bottle.

Your grasp on this seems to be similar to that of your post independence financial expertise.

[stoneyburn hibs]

It's long overdue and I'd support it whatever government introduced it. I already recycle my glass bottles every few weeks and personally go through a large plastic bottle of water each working day.

A couple of generations from now will do it as 2nd nature, thumbs up.

[James310]

Your grasp on this seems to be similar to that of your post independence financial expertise.

I bow to your financial expertise on post independence financial matters, but funnily enough never saw any evidence of it. But please do share.

[Moulin Yarns]

Chris Grayling is just getting started on it now. Expect big things.


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Well, that fills me with confidence 😉

How much has he wasted?

[McD]

Not if you actually bother to return it when you're done with it, which is the whole point. :rolleyes:


:agree:

I thought that it was fairly obvious, but the fact you’ve had to spell it out for him makes me wonder

[Just Alf]

Not sad whatsever.

Like me he doesn't agree with their divisive separatist agenda and has every right to give his opinion likewise separatist supporters are free to champion their cause or give other parties a 'kicking' as they do consistently on here.

Its called free speech.

Once their numbers are diminished and they the snp and their sidekicks the greens are eventually turfed out as being the devolved ruling party I'm certain thereafter no one will bother even mentioning them :greengrinAre you saying that airport departure tax shouldn't be kept and that nothing should be done to reduce plastic waste?

Or is it simply because the SNP happen to be in power at the moment and are making the choices, What, in your opinion are they doing wrong with this?

Let's be honest, whoever was in power just now would be taking heed of the world around them and moulding their policies to suit surely you don't you think the Tories/Labour would be too dogmatic to do it?

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[danhibees1875]

The current recycling bins aren't going anywhere. The policy doesn't apply to all plastics, so you will still require that bin for some plastic wastes. The whole point of the policy is to get people "bothered". Because we really need to start getting "bothered".

To clarify, I do it. I just don't enjoy doing it. The 4 flights of stairs don't help. :greengrin



That's actually an option over here in Germany. When you return your bottles to the returns machine, you have the option to either receive a voucher to the value of the returns or donate it to a charity.

Fwiw this system has been in place for years now and it works well. Some people still can't be arsed returning their bottles but the bottles don't lie around long as there's many people especially kids, go around collecting empties, at €0.25 a pop that can be a nice little earner especially around football stadiums or other event venues. Saves a fortune on cleaning up afterwards too.

I was in Dusseldorf last year and seen a lot of people out drinking beer by the river, there was the odd person going round with a trolley collecting all the empties, I assumed there must have been something like that in place.

How does it work in practice? Do people walk to the shops with a hand full of bottles and queue up before they shop to recycle and receive their money off voucher? Or is it done in bulk or a smoother process than I'm imagining?

[Just Alf]

But we have to have lots of comments about Scouts delivering leaflets for the Tories as that is like really important, but government u turns on big issues is 'sad' when commented on.Ok, with regards to the issues at hand, are you saying the keeping airport departure tax and enhancing the chances of reducing plastic waste is wrong?

Why do you think it (the tax) shouldn't be abolished and the plastic waste situation left as it is?

PS, I get the criticism/challange thing and I agree with you it's required, just why on these two issues specifically?

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[James310]

Ok, with regards to the issues at hand, are you saying the keeping airport departure tax and enhancing the chances of reducing plastic waste is wrong?

Why do you think it (the tax) shouldn't be abolished and the plastic waste situation left as it is?

PS, I get the criticism/challange thing and I agree with you it's required, just why on these two issues specifically?

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It's more the shambolic way the u turn on APD was done. It was remember a manifesto commitment (we know how important they are don't we, but this one seems dispensible but some have to be obeyed) and was introduced with much fanfare at the time. It was supposed to be cut by 50% in April 2018 but the government 'were not ready' and then eventually it was supposed to be abolished. You don't make a commitment like that unless you think it's a great idea.

In March 2019 the SNP voted AGAINST a Climate Emergency. That's 6 weeks ago.

Around 2 weeks ago the CEO of Edinburgh Airport was told personally it was still on track to cut the tax by a government official, he was planning his business around this promise and no doubt setting budgets etc based on it.

Yet within the space of a few weeks it's gone.

That's not the actions of a competent government, that's making up policy as you go. Enough was known about Climate change in 2016 to make this decision.

The tax is, and this is the SNPs own words, 'one of the most expensive taxes of it's kind in the world' and it 'hampers Scotland's ability to attract new direct routes and maintain existing ones'. So I believe the tax cut would have give tourism a significant boost and attracted more visitors to Scotland which is such a key industry for us, that was I believe the point of the cut in tax was about.

I don't know enough about the plastic bottle tax, as pointed out by pleasant people on here, and will need to read it in more detail.

P. S. At least you take the time to reply with reasonable responses, unlike some who sit on the sidelines and contribute nothing but chip in with snidey remarks.

[allmodcons]

Nationalists are by nature xenophobes.

You may wish to ignore it but its a fact.

Scottish Nationalists are no different from any other nationalists despite your wishful thinking.

You are a parody of 'whaes like us' type brigadoon scottishness which despite your denials is nutter nationalism.

Me i prefer to remain within the UK which is a perfect example of how non nationalists can get together and expel nationalist nutters.


We've managed to alienate racists why not do the same with 'nationalists'.

They're so alike in their rhetoric and stance.

The Snp are nationalistic and should be treated the same as racists are in my book.

Nationalism is vile.

Possibly the 2 worst posts I've seen on this forum. Seriously, were you pissed when you wrote these?

To call your fellow posters nutters and racists because they have a different political viewpoint from you is beyond believe and totally embarrassing.

I think you should withdraw these comments and apologise to those you are trying to engage in 'debate'.

[Radium]

It's more the shambolic way the u turn on APD was done. It was remember a manifesto commitment (we know how important they are don't we, but this one seems dispensible but some have to be obeyed) and was introduced with much fanfare at the time. It was supposed to be cut by 50% in April 2018 but the government 'were not ready' and then eventually it was supposed to be abolished. You don't make a commitment like that unless you think it's a great idea.

In March 2019 the SNP voted AGAINST a Climate Emergency. That's 6 weeks ago.

Around 2 weeks ago the CEO of Edinburgh Airport was told personally it was still on track to cut the tax by a government official, he was planning his business around this promise and no doubt setting budgets etc based on it.

Yet within the space of a few weeks it's gone.

That's not the actions of a competent government, that's making up policy as you go. Enough was known about Climate change in 2016 to make this decision.

The tax is, and this is the SNPs own words, 'one of the most expensive taxes of it's kind in the world' and it 'hampers Scotland's ability to attract new direct routes and maintain existing ones'. So I believe the tax cut would have give tourism a significant boost and attracted more visitors to Scotland which is such a key industry for us, that was I believe the point of the cut in tax was about.

I don't know enough about the plastic bottle tax, as pointed out by pleasant people on here, and will need to read it in more detail.

P. S. At least you take the time to reply with reasonable responses, unlike some who sit on the sidelines and contribute nothing but chip in with snidey remarks.

No good way to u-turn but it’s the plaster off analogy: rip it fast or string it out.

Re the CEO at Edinburgh Airport, I have absolutely no sympathy given the contemptuous way the flight path issue was dealt with in West Lothian. Single minded approach to the bottom line with little acceptance of social responsibility.



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[allmodcons]

It's more the shambolic way the u turn on APD was done. It was remember a manifesto commitment (we know how important they are don't we, but this one seems dispensible but some have to be obeyed) and was introduced with much fanfare at the time. It was supposed to be cut by 50% in April 2018 but the government 'were not ready' and then eventually it was supposed to be abolished. You don't make a commitment like that unless you think it's a great idea.

In March 2019 the SNP voted AGAINST a Climate Emergency. That's 6 weeks ago.

Around 2 weeks ago the CEO of Edinburgh Airport was told personally it was still on track to cut the tax by a government official, he was planning his business around this promise and no doubt setting budgets etc based on it.

Yet within the space of a few weeks it's gone.

That's not the actions of a competent government, that's making up policy as you go. Enough was known about Climate change in 2016 to make this decision.

The tax is, and this is the SNPs own words, 'one of the most expensive taxes of it's kind in the world' and it 'hampers Scotland's ability to attract new direct routes and maintain existing ones'. So I believe the tax cut would have give tourism a boost and attracted more visitors to Scotland which is such a key industry for us, that was I believe the point of the cut in tax was about.

I don't know enough about the plastic bottle tax, as pointed out by pleasant people on here and will need to read it in more detail.

P. S. At least you take the time to reply with reasonable responses, unlike some who sit on the sidelines and contribute nothing but chip in with snidey remarks.

You're always complaining that you don't get answers to the questions you ask. Seriously, why would anybody get embroiled in a daily debate with a pure Britnat who has become a full time poster on an SNP thread. It's like trying to engage with some of the worst excesses of Unionists who post on the Scotsman forum (always good for a laugh).

Some of us have a life beyond Hibs.net. If you think I'm going to spend hours on here trying to persuade a dyed in the wool Unionist of the merits of Independence you really need to wisen up.

You talk about holding Government to account but rarely, if ever, have I seen you criticise the UK Government. Everything the SNP Government do is bad news for you. ADT being the latest example where they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I enjoy posting on an occasional basis but the time and effort you put into this thread is quite amazing.

I posted a link earlier today from the Financial Times about Norway's oil fund and how a small nimble economy has made such a brilliant job of managing a finite resource. If you are so keen to hold Government to account can you explain to me what successive UK Governments have done with 50 years of oil wealth? How's their fund looking? What is the current level of UK National Debt and do you think it's at an acceptable level? Do you think the disparity in living standards between London/SE and NE England is acceptable? Do you think the UK Government is doing a good job of running the NHS south of border? oh, and finally, do you think they've handled Brexit well?

You're good at asking questions but not so forthcoming with answers.

[Just Alf]

It's more the shambolic way the u turn on APD was done. It was remember a manifesto commitment (we know how important they are don't we, but this one seems dispensible but some have to be obeyed) and was introduced with much fanfare at the time. It was supposed to be cut by 50% in April 2018 but the government 'were not ready' and then eventually it was supposed to be abolished. You don't make a commitment like that unless you think it's a great idea.

In March 2019 the SNP voted AGAINST a Climate Emergency. That's 6 weeks ago.

Around 2 weeks ago the CEO of Edinburgh Airport was told personally it was still on track to cut the tax by a government official, he was planning his business around this promise and no doubt setting budgets etc based on it.

Yet within the space of a few weeks it's gone.

That's not the actions of a competent government, that's making up policy as you go. Enough was known about Climate change in 2016 to make this decision.

The tax is, and this is the SNPs own words, 'one of the most expensive taxes of it's kind in the world' and it 'hampers Scotland's ability to attract new direct routes and maintain existing ones'. So I believe the tax cut would have give tourism a significant boost and attracted more visitors to Scotland which is such a key industry for us, that was I believe the point of the cut in tax was about.

I don't know enough about the plastic bottle tax, as pointed out by pleasant people on here, and will need to read it in more detail.

P. S. At least you take the time to reply with reasonable responses, unlike some who sit on the sidelines and contribute nothing but chip in with snidey remarks.Thanks James310, I get where you're coming from now, it can seem a bit 'reactionary' I guess, and it does really seem a bit last minute change wise, that said I'd rather that than sticking to something that was becoming increasingly obvious as the wrong path.

Could it have been better? Yup! Could it have been worse? Yup! :-)

Re the 2016 thing, we still have peeps now who don't think it's an issue (eg Trump.. But he's saying that coz he can make money out of it) but I genuinely believe that the issue has been 'brought home' to lot of politicians over the last 2-3 years and they now have different views... I for one am much more aware than in 2016.





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[James310]

You're always complaining that you don't get answers to the questions you ask. Seriously, why would anybody get embroiled in a daily debate with a pure Britnat who has become a full time poster on an SNP thread. It's like trying to engage with some of the worst excesses of Unionists who post on the Scotsman forum (always good for a laugh).

Some of us have a life beyond Hibs.net. If you think I'm going to spend hours on here trying to persuade a dyed in the wool Unionist of the merits of Independence you really need to wisen up.

You talk about holding Government to account but rarely, if ever, have I seen you criticise the UK Government. Everything the SNP Government do is bad news for you. ADT being the latest example where they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I enjoy posting on an occasional basis but the time and effort you put into this thread is quite amazing.

I posted a link earlier today from the Financial Times about Norway's oil fund and how a small nimble economy has made such a brilliant job of managing a finite resource. If you are so keen to hold Government to account can you explain to me what successive UK Governments have done with 50 years of oil wealth? How's their fund looking? What is the current level of UK National Debt and do you think it's at an acceptable level? Do you think the disparity in living standards between London/SE and NE England is acceptable? Do you think the UK Government is doing a good job of running the NHS south of border? oh, and finally, do you think they've handled Brexit well?

You're good at asking questions but not so forthcoming with answers.

Look at the title of the thread. Bye.

Feel free to ignore if you don't like what I have to say. I have a few on ignore and it's great.

[Hibrandenburg]

To clarify, I do it. I just don't enjoy doing it. The 4 flights of stairs don't help. :greengrin




I was in Dusseldorf last year and seen a lot of people out drinking beer by the river, there was the odd person going round with a trolley collecting all the empties, I assumed there must have been something like that in place.

How does it work in practice? Do people walk to the shops with a hand full of bottles and queue up before they shop to recycle and receive their money off voucher? Or is it done in bulk or a smoother process than I'm imagining?

Most supermarkets have 3 or 4 machines to accept returns so there's not much queuing. I suppose everyone does their shopping differently but I normally buy crates in bulk, it makes it nice and easy to store in the garage and cellar and I return the crates as and when they're full of empties. It's just part of day to day life over here and nobody thinks it's a big deal. Another plus is that you don't forget your reusable shopping bags because you've used them to bring your empties back :greengrin

[danhibees1875]

Most supermarkets have 3 or 4 machines to accept returns so there's not much queuing. I suppose everyone does their shopping differently but I normally buy crates in bulk, it makes it nice and easy to store in the garage and cellar and I return the crates as and when they're full of empties. It's just part of day to day life over here and nobody thinks it's a big deal. Another plus is that you don't forget your reusable shopping bags because you've used them to bring your empties back :greengrin

I guess it becoming second nature and part of life is hopefully what it will end up being in a year or so here too. Good point on the reusable bags too, I always forget them. Although I do most of my shopping between work and home, so less of a chance to pick them up.

[allmodcons]

Look at the title of the thread. Bye.

Feel free to ignore if you don't like what I have to say. I have a few on ignore and it's great.

Quality response which just confirms everything I said of you.

You like asking questions but never provide any answers when questions are asked of you.

[James310]

Quality response which just confirms everything I said of you.

You like asking questions but never provide any answers when questions are asked of you.

That's where you are wrong. I was asked to provide positive reasons for the Union I did, was asked to justify my critisism of the APD tax and I did. Explained my objections to the currency plans many times with examples illustrating why, plus lots more. There are a lot more on your 'side' than mine remember. (But thankfully I am actually in the majority across the country)

As I have said many times, but will repeat again for you, it is not my job to justify the status quo, its up to you and your friends to sell the positive reasons of Indy, the onus is on you to show why such a significant change should be made.

If you want to start threads on all those other topics then knock yourself out.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's more the shambolic way the u turn on APD was done. It was remember a manifesto commitment (we know how important they are don't we, but this one seems dispensible but some have to be obeyed) and was introduced with much fanfare at the time. It was supposed to be cut by 50% in April 2018 but the government 'were not ready' and then eventually it was supposed to be abolished. You don't make a commitment like that unless you think it's a great idea.

In March 2019 the SNP voted AGAINST a Climate Emergency. That's 6 weeks ago.

Around 2 weeks ago the CEO of Edinburgh Airport was told personally it was still on track to cut the tax by a government official, he was planning his business around this promise and no doubt setting budgets etc based on it.

Yet within the space of a few weeks it's gone.

That's not the actions of a competent government, that's making up policy as you go. Enough was known about Climate change in 2016 to make this decision.

The tax is, and this is the SNPs own words, 'one of the most expensive taxes of it's kind in the world' and it 'hampers Scotland's ability to attract new direct routes and maintain existing ones'. So I believe the tax cut would have give tourism a significant boost and attracted more visitors to Scotland which is such a key industry for us, that was I believe the point of the cut in tax was about.

I don't know enough about the plastic bottle tax, as pointed out by pleasant people on here, and will need to read it in more detail.

P. S. At least you take the time to reply with reasonable responses, unlike some who sit on the sidelines and contribute nothing but chip in with snidey remarks.

I've already corrected you on this. Air passenger duty, a reserved matter is being replaced by Passengers Departure Tax. When introduced the snp plan was it would be half the outgoing duty.


I have already posted that EVERY PARTY, aye even the tories, voted against the Greens climate emergency motion.


Ironic that you are calling the snp government incompetent when you see what is happening in the mother of Parliaments


Instead I will congratulate them for realising that they might not have been right, cannae see Theresa May being able to admit that she might just be making a huge mistake

[Moulin Yarns]

That's where you are wrong. I was asked to provide positive reasons for the Union I did, was asked to justify my critisism of the APD tax and I did. Plus lots more, there are a lot more on your 'side' than mine remember. (But I am actually in the majority across the country)

As I have said many times, but will repeat again for you, it is not my job to justify the status quo, its up to you and your friends to sell the positive reasons of Indy, the onus is on you to show why such a significant change should be made.

If you want to start all those other topics on other threads then knock yourself out.

OK, can you justify the impasse on Brexit and why, with a lot more information that a vote should not be taken, because, you know what, the status quo rocks

[James310]

OK, can you justify the impasse on Brexit and why, with a lot more information that a vote should not be taken, because, you know what, the status quo rocks

No, I will just get for criticised for going off topic. Off to bed.

[G B Young]

OK, can you justify the impasse on Brexit and why, with a lot more information that a vote should not be taken, because, you know what, the status quo rocks

It's not up to the punters, whatever their political persuasion, to justify or condone the impasse on Brexit. That's down to those politicians, across all parties, who have contrived to bring the process to a standstill because they think they know better than the electorate.

[Tornadoes70]

No, I will just get for criticised for going off topic. Off to bed.

James, don't be afraid to continue giving your opinions on here. Its not a question and answer session. Certainly folk are welcome to pose questions to posted opinions but you're not 'legally obliged' to answer them as some of the questions are posed to deliberately distract and defer :greengrin.

We all know the separatists have only one issue that some of them very aggressively push towards that is holding yet another wholly divisive referendum on a question that was answered unambiguously back in 2014.

Its good for the forum to have differing opinions as it should of course be like our beloved club a broad church. It'd be even better if more folk offered up their opinions and narratives whatever they may be while keeping it civil.

:aok:

[Tornadoes70]

I guess it becoming second nature and part of life is hopefully what it will end up being in a year or so here too. Good point on the reusable bags too, I always forget them. Although I do most of my shopping between work and home, so less of a chance to pick them up.

Like most folk I've always recycled bottles and all other recyclable material packaging etc without the need for any type monetary refund. Its something we should all be doing in any case and probably most of us have been doing so for some time now.

I'd rather they kept the money and put more into the recycling industry ensuring ALL the materials are actually being recycled instead of some of it being sent to landfill which we keep hearing reports that some of it ends up there anyhow.

[Hibrandenburg]

Like most folk I've always recycled bottles and all other recyclable material packaging etc without the need for any type monetary refund. Its something we should all be doing in any case and probably most of us have been doing so for some time now.

I'd rather they kept the money and put more into the recycling industry ensuring ALL the materials are actually being recycled instead of some of it being sent to landfill which we keep hearing reports that some of it ends up there anyhow.

Your trust in humans to do the right thing is admirable but completely flawed.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

It'd be even better if more folk offered up their opinions and narratives whatever they may be while keeping it civil.

:aok:

You don't do irony do you?

[Tornadoes70]

Your trust in humans to do the right thing is admirable but completely flawed.

I agree in that there are some who continually refuse to recycle which should be second nature by now as most folk have been provided with personal green bins and there are plenty of other communal and general recycling points available at supermarkets etc.

However, I don't think pennies refund on bottles will make much difference to the perpetual reckless ones who casually dump recyclables wherever they feel like and fill up their landfill waste bins with recyclable material.

I'd definitely approve of more funds being provided for the recyclable industry overall though ensuring more is done to re use as much of the material as is possible for our planet is finite and we cannot continue to dump waste into the air, rivers, sea and ever more landfill sites without dire consequences.

I'd also advocate ever tougher penalties on those who're caught habitually dumping waste/items out-with recycling sites and continue to encourage manufacturers etc to seek producing goods and services in ever more planet friendly means and ways.

[Moulin Yarns]

I agree in that there are some who continually refuse to recycle which should be second nature by now as most folk have been provided with personal green bins and there are plenty of other communal and general recycling points available at supermarkets etc.

However, I don't think pennies refund on bottles will make much difference to the perpetual reckless ones who casually dump recyclables wherever they feel like and fill up their landfill waste bins with recyclable material.

I'd definitely approve of more funds being provided for the recyclable industry overall though ensuring more is done to re use as much as the material as is possible for our planet is finite and we cannot continue to dump waste into the air, rivers, sea and ever more landfill sites without dire consequences.

I'd also advocate ever tougher penalties on those who're caught habitually dumping waste out-with recycling sites and continue to encourage manufacturers etc to seek producing goods and services in ever more planet friendly means and ways.

An industry that turned over £9bn in 2014 (Government report), employs 70,000 across 3,000 companies probably doesn't need a a cash injection from central government.

PS see my post on the pet peeves thread about garden waste. :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

I agree in that there are some who continually refuse to recycle which should be second nature by now as most folk have been provided with personal green bins and there are plenty of other communal and general recycling points available at supermarkets etc.

However, I don't think pennies refund on bottles will make much difference to the perpetual reckless ones who casually dump recyclables wherever they feel like and fill up their landfill waste bins with recyclable material.

I'd definitely approve of more funds being provided for the recyclable industry overall though ensuring more is done to re use as much of the material as is possible for our planet is finite and we cannot continue to dump waste into the air, rivers, sea and ever more landfill sites without dire consequences.

I'd also advocate ever tougher penalties on those who're caught habitually dumping waste/items out-with recycling sites and continue to encourage manufacturers etc to seek producing goods and services in ever more planet friendly means and ways.

So punish bad behaviour rather than rewarding good? No thanks!!!

[Tornadoes70]

An industry that turned over £9bn in 2014 (Government report), employs 70,000 across 3,000 companies probably doesn't need a a cash injection from central government.

PS see my post on the pet peeves thread about garden waste. :wink:

There have been a few local recycling/waste plants closed down over recent years in Edinburgh with the exanding hub now being based at Sighthill meaning more folk driving futher to it in their cars, pick ups, lorries etc.

Of course more can be done by government to ensure more local recycling/waste plants and that folk are both encouraged and penalised to prevent dumping and ensure more recycling.

The snp/greens don't have a monopoly on these very important issues. I'd warrant a guess that most of us want to see these issues tackled in ever growing practical and meaningful ways.

[Tornadoes70]

So punish bad behaviour rather than rewarding good? No thanks!!!

Decent civilised behavior is quite normal for most folk in my opinion and anyone that cares about the environment should obviously recycle their waste products in absence of monetary reward.

[Moulin Yarns]

There have been a few local recycling/waste plants closed down over recent years in Edinburgh with the exanding hub now being based at Sighthill meaning more folk driving futher to it in their cars, pick ups, lorries etc.

Of course more can be done by government to ensure more local recycling/waste plants and that folk are both encouraged and penalised to prevent dumping and ensure more recycling.

The snp/greens don't have a monopoly on these very important issues. I'd warrant a guess that most of us want to see these issues tackled in ever growing practical and meaningful ways.

Delivery of recycling is a local government issue, but it's OK the government are doing their bit https://www.gov.scot/policies/managing-waste/.



Think yourself lucky you live in a city, us rural dwellers have to do a lot more travelling for everything. A bit of forward planning helps if you can cover a number of things in a single trip to the metropoplis of Perth (round trip of 58 miles)

[Moulin Yarns]

Decent civilised behavior is quite normal for most folk in my opinion and anyone that cares about the environment should obviously recycle their waste products in absence of monetary reward.

Is it monetary reward though? It is an incentive to reduce a problem we have. The single use bag tax was an incentive to reduce the use of such bags.

I am of an age that remembers when lemonade bottles returned got a refund, because the juice manufacturers were able to sterilise and reuse the bottles, now, all the glass goes together to be re-manufactured, which is a lot less energy efficient, not that I see us going back to that system.

[Tornadoes70]

Delivery of recycling is a local government issue, but it's OK the government are doing their bit https://www.gov.scot/policies/managing-waste/.



Think yourself lucky you live in a city, us rural dwellers have to do a lot more travelling for everything. A bit of forward planning helps if you can cover a number of things in a single trip to the metropoplis of Perth (round trip of 58 miles)

Every authority whoever is in charge should be ensuring funds are targeted appropriately and striving to improve recycling from both manufacturing and the public while cutting down on waste.

[allmodcons]

That's where you are wrong. I was asked to provide positive reasons for the Union I did, was asked to justify my critisism of the APD tax and I did. Explained my objections to the currency plans many times with examples illustrating why, plus lots more. There are a lot more on your 'side' than mine remember. (But thankfully I am actually in the majority across the country)

As I have said many times, but will repeat again for you, it is not my job to justify the status quo, its up to you and your friends to sell the positive reasons of Indy, the onus is on you to show why such a significant change should be made.

If you want to start threads on all those other topics then knock yourself out.

It's a political thread. Why can't you answer any of the questions I've asked of you? Do you only pass comment on SNP governance? You have no opinions about the Parliament that makes all the major economic decisions?

[allmodcons]

James, don't be afraid to continue giving your opinions on here. Its not a question and answer session. Certainly folk are welcome to pose questions to posted opinions but you're not 'legally obliged' to answer them as some of the questions are posed to deliberately distract and defer :greengrin.

We all know the separatists have only one issue that some of them very aggressively push towards that is holding yet another wholly divisive referendum on a question that was answered unambiguously back in 2014.

Its good for the forum to have differing opinions as it should of course be like our beloved club a broad church.

It'd be even better if more folk offered up their opinions and narratives whatever they may be while keeping it civil.

:aok:

This from someone who refers to a whole host of fellow posters as racists and nutters.

[Moulin Yarns]

This from someone who refers to a whole host of fellow posters as racists and nutters.

Had you not noticed the coordinated pincer movement from left and right. Ironically first used at Marathon it is believed. :wink:

[The Modfather]

Had you not noticed the coordinated pincer movement from left and right. Ironically first used at Marathon it is believed. :wink:

From conservatories to the Greco-Persian war in a couple of pages. The wonders of the holy ground 😀

[cabbageandribs1875]

This from someone who refers to a whole host of fellow posters as racists and nutters.


and constantly gets away with it, Nazi's etc etc etc :agree: and has the brass neck to use the word 'civility' pffftt

[Moulin Yarns]

I didn't realise Barrs only stopped their deposit refund scheme in 2015.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-33985022

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/14214/scottish-government-announces-20p-deposit-return-scheme-cans-and-drink-containers

[ronaldo7]

I really can't understand why anyone, let alone, Michael Gove would want to get hot and bothered about a Bottle and can, deposit return scheme.

It seems we are different after all.

Well done again to the mighty SNP. 👍.

[Moulin Yarns]

I really can't understand why anyone, let alone, Michael Gove would want to get hot and bothered about a Bottle and can, deposit return scheme.

It seems we are different after all.

Well done again to the mighty SNP. ��.

I saw that last night. what a moan, imagine, the temerity of the SNP to introduce something he has just thought of. Hey Michael, think of it as a trial introduction to iron out any teething problems, also known as the Poll Tax.

[James310]

Still nobody believe me when I said Joanna Cherry was making her move to be leader. She has been critical of the SNP leadership today, it is unusual to see such a prominent figure breaking ranks like that.

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1127489743606943744?s=19

She has been accused of bullying her staff and is subject to an official complaint but looks like she feels she has had no support.

She has frequently 'liked' tweets suggesting she should be leader and there was talk of her taking up a seat in the Scottish Parliament.

She is making a move as I don't think she agrees with Nicola Sturgeons slowly slowly approach.

There is definitely some unrest in the party at the moment and a lot of the activists did not like the articles last week about the Cybernats. I won't pretend to understand all this transright stuff that also seems to be a major issue at the moment.

As I have said I will be surprised if Nicola Sturgeon is around in 12 months.

Even Craig Murray backs her, although I am guessing that is not a welcomed endorsement.

https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1127849558594207744?s=19

[ronaldo7]

Still nobody believe me when I said Joanna Cherry was making her move to be leader. She has been critical of the SNP leadership today, it is unusual to see such a prominent figure breaking ranks like that.

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1127489743606943744?s=19

She has been accused of bullying her staff and is subject to an official complaint but looks like she feels she has had no support.

She has frequently 'liked' tweets suggesting she should be leader and there was talk of her taking up a seat in the Scottish Parliament.

She is making a move as I don't think she agrees with Nicola Sturgeons slowly slowly approach.

There is definitely some unrest in the party at the moment and a lot of the activists did not like the articles last week about the Cybernats. I won't pretend to understand all this transright stuff that also seems to be a major issue at the moment.

As I have said I will be surprised if Nicola Sturgeon is around in 12 months.

Even Craig Murray backs her, although I am guessing that is not a welcomed endorsement.

https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1127849558594207744?s=19

The First Minister also confirmed she’s spoken with @joannaccherry about bullying allegations over the weekend - they’ve been described as lies by Ms Cherry. The SNP leader also rejects claims of infighting in the party https://t.co/Q5DwbNCXwr

I think the first four words in your quoted post are spot on mate. 😂👍

[Ozyhibby]

It’s all kicking off in the SNP. [emoji23]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190513/da74b69c87df782b3168973e3d1a8ac9.jpg


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[G B Young]

The First Minister also confirmed she’s spoken with @joannaccherry about bullying allegations over the weekend - they’ve been described as lies by Ms Cherry. The SNP leader also rejects claims of infighting in the party https://t.co/Q5DwbNCXwr

I think the first four words in your quoted post are spot on mate. 😂👍

Alex Salmond describes as unfounded charges of two attempted rapes, nine sexual assaults, two indecent assaults and a breach of the peace. In his case we'll just need to see what transpires in the court case and in Cherry's case what the parliamentary authorities unearth. Just because their supporters don't want to believe them, it doesn't mean such allegations have no foundation.

As for Sturgeon rejecting claims of infighting, was she ever likely to agree there's internal disharmony within the party? The recent leaked emails re the party's stance on transgender issues revealed discord on that issue alone, so it's surely unrealistic to pretend that the SNP (or any political party) ticks along in perfect harmony. She's only saying what any leader would say in such circumstances.

[stoneyburn hibs]

It’s all kicking off in the SNP. [emoji23]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190513/da74b69c87df782b3168973e3d1a8ac9.jpg


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Yep, definitely a leadership battle coming.

[ronaldo7]

Alex Salmond describes as unfounded charges of two attempted rapes, nine sexual assaults, two indecent assaults and a breach of the peace. In his case we'll just need to see what transpires in the court case and in Cherry's case what the parliamentary authorities unearth. Just because their supporters don't want to believe them, it doesn't mean such allegations have no foundation.

As for Sturgeon rejecting claims of infighting, was she ever likely to agree there's internal disharmony within the party? The recent leaked emails re the party's stance on transgender issues revealed discord on that issue alone, so it's surely unrealistic to pretend that the SNP (or any political party) ticks along in perfect harmony. She's only saying what any leader would say in such circumstances.

I don't think anyone has said the SNP run along in perfect harmony, but if we're to "believe" John, we're heading for a new leader in 12 months.

Tell you what. I'll put a wager on with both you and, John/James that, Nicola surgeon will be leader of the SNP in 12 months time. £20 each, with the cash going to kicks for kids.

It's only a small amount of your pension pot, so it shouldn't make too much of a dent.

How about it?

[James310]

You all do realise that Nicola Sturgeon only came out with support for Joanne Cherry AFTER her twitter rant. Of course you do, but that gets in the way of nothing to see etc.

A very rare slip there as we know you can't be seen to question anything at all regarding Nicola and her husband (what's your Nat mailing name?) Murrell, they like total control over everything.

She obviously is still not happy.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-mp-joanna-cherry-says-bully-claim-may-be-part-of-smearing-by-own-party-1-4925735

Seems it's you either #teamsalmond or #teamsturgeon

[Peevemor]

Yep, definitely a leadership battle coming.

Bad news for the SNP if so. Nothing to do with the leadership capabilities of either, simply that Sturgeon has a "likability" and apparent accessibilty that Cherry doesn't.

[James310]

I don't think anyone has said the SNP run along in perfect harmony, but if we're to "believe" John, we're heading for a new leader in 12 months.

Tell you what. I'll put a wager on with both you and, John/James that, Nicola surgeon will be leader of the SNP in 12 months time. £20 each, with the cash going to kicks for kids.

It's only a small amount of your pension pot, so it shouldn't make too much of a dent.

How about it?

I will take you up on that. Will make a diary note. What currency will we need to pay it in?

[ronaldo7]

I will take you up on that. Will make a diary note. What currency will we need to pay it in?

Good man. I look forward to the kids reaping the rewards of your pension pot.

On the currency, take your pick, I'm sure it'll be the GBP for you. £20 might be worth about £18 by the time you pay out, but I'm sure your pension advisor will have it covered.

[Smartie]

I will take you up on that. Will make a diary note. What currency will we need to pay it in?

You won't allow use of the pound, and if it was in any "new" currency it would end up being for an amount so small that it wouldn't have been worth the hassle in the first place.

That leaves the Euro. Aye, but Greece.


I think I'm starting to get your drift.

[James310]

You won't allow use of the pound, and if it was in any "new" currency it would end up being for an amount so small that it wouldn't have been worth the hassle in the first place.

That leaves the Euro. Aye, but Greece.


I think I'm starting to get your drift.

I never knew I had the power to 'allow' use of any currency, but grateful that you see me as suitability qualified to make those decisions.

[James310]

Good man. I look forward to the kids reaping the rewards of your pension pot.

On the currency, take your pick, I'm sure it'll be the GBP for you. £20 might be worth about £18 by the time you pay out, but I'm sure your pension advisor will have it covered.

Actually it will be fine. That money fairy will make it all good, behind the scenes etc etc.

[G B Young]

I don't think anyone has said the SNP run along in perfect harmony, but if we're to "believe" John, we're heading for a new leader in 12 months.

Tell you what. I'll put a wager on with both you and, John/James that, Nicola surgeon will be leader of the SNP in 12 months time. £20 each, with the cash going to kicks for kids.

It's only a small amount of your pension pot, so it shouldn't make too much of a dent.

How about it?

I'd be very surprised if Sturgeon's not still at the helm come the next Scottish Parliamentary elections so I'll hold on to my cash on this occasion thanks :-)

[ronaldo7]

I'd be very surprised if Sturgeon's not still at the helm come the next Scottish Parliamentary elections so I'll hold on to my cash on this occasion thanks :-)

😊 fair do's

[ronaldo7]

Actually it will be fine. That money fairy will make it all good, behind the scenes etc etc.

Is that like, Theresa's magic money tree?

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd be very surprised if Sturgeon's not still at the helm come the next Scottish Parliamentary elections so I'll hold on to my cash on this occasion thanks :-)

Smart move. There is zero chance of NS being challenged/removed this side of either an indyref2 defeat or the sort of spectacular poll collapse Unionists have been forecasting* since a few months after the 2007 SP election.


* forecasts which, on the whole, haven't gone well. :wink:

[stoneyburn hibs]

Bad news for the SNP if so. Nothing to do with the leadership capabilities of either, simply that Sturgeon has a "likability" and apparent accessibilty that Cherry doesn't.

Sorry, should have added a smiley.

[James310]

I think the Alex Salmond enquiry will burn a few names and Sturgeon will be forced to resign. The fact her husband is also CEO of the party is a cosy little relationship that is wide open for cover ups and abuse. Can anyone name another major political party where a husband and wife team are Party Leader and CEO.

Kenny MacAskill knows.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/kenny-macaskill-alex-salmond-case-will-leave-snp-leaders-tarnished-1-4918658

I am guessing he is a bitter ex colleague though.

"Lastly, there’s the unknown with the most significant factor being the fallout from the Alex Salmond prosecution to come.

From what I hear, some leading SNP reputations could be well and truly burned. Where that goes, no one knows but it’s a factor that has to be taken into account."

[Ozyhibby]

I think the Alex Salmond enquiry will burn a few names and Sturgeon will be forced to resign. The fact her husband is also CEO of the party is a cosy little relationship that is wide open for cover ups and abuse. Can anyone name another major political party where a husband and wife team are Party Leader and CEO.

Kenny MacAskill knows.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/kenny-macaskill-alex-salmond-case-will-leave-snp-leaders-tarnished-1-4918658

I am guessing he is a bitter ex colleague though.

"Lastly, there’s the unknown with the most significant factor being the fallout from the Alex Salmond prosecution to come.

From what I hear, some leading SNP reputations could be well and truly burned. Where that goes, no one knows but it’s a factor that has to be taken into account."

That just sounds like desperate wishful thinking.


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[James310]

That just sounds like desperate wishful thinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe, but there is something fishy going on with things like all emails being deleted after only 14 months. I don't believe that at all. All sounds very convenient.

[Smartie]

I think the Alex Salmond enquiry will burn a few names and Sturgeon will be forced to resign. The fact her husband is also CEO of the party is a cosy little relationship that is wide open for cover ups and abuse. Can anyone name another major political party where a husband and wife team are Party Leader and CEO.

Kenny MacAskill knows.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/kenny-macaskill-alex-salmond-case-will-leave-snp-leaders-tarnished-1-4918658

I am guessing he is a bitter ex colleague though.

"Lastly, there’s the unknown with the most significant factor being the fallout from the Alex Salmond prosecution to come.

From what I hear, some leading SNP reputations could be well and truly burned. Where that goes, no one knows but it’s a factor that has to be taken into account."

I thought it was a fairly interesting article, a decent balance of fact and opinion. Far from painting an overly rosy picture, it pointed out a few positives as well as highlighting some of the problems that are likely to affect the SNP over the coming months/ years.

It struck me as the type of article you would get from someone with a degree of knowledge from the inside and as an SNP voter I don't find much within it to argue with.

Exactly the type of commentary you claim does not exist regarding the SNP. Or should I instead focus on the ultra-negative message you have chosen to take away from the article?

[James310]

I thought it was a fairly interesting article, a decent balance of fact and opinion. Far from painting an overly rosy picture, it pointed out a few positives as well as highlighting some of the problems that are likely to affect the SNP over the coming months/ years.

It struck me as the type of article you would get from someone with a degree of knowledge from the inside and as an SNP voter I don't find much within it to argue with.

Exactly the type of commentary you claim does not exist regarding the SNP. Or should I instead focus on the ultra-negative message you have chosen to take away from the article?

Oh it exists in the real world, but rarely on here. I have rarely seen anyone on this board that backs Independence criticise the SNP. There seems to be some internal code against it. You saw what happened when 3 senior members had a go at the Cybernats, they were accused online of being Unionist plants and Mi5 sleeper agents. 😂 (Not on here I must add)

[JeMeSouviens]

I thought it was a fairly interesting article, a decent balance of fact and opinion. Far from painting an overly rosy picture, it pointed out a few positives as well as highlighting some of the problems that are likely to affect the SNP over the coming months/ years.

It struck me as the type of article you would get from someone with a degree of knowledge from the inside and as an SNP voter I don't find much within it to argue with.

Exactly the type of commentary you claim does not exist regarding the SNP. Or should I instead focus on the ultra-negative message you have chosen to take away from the article?

:agree: spot on.

I notice this para didn't get highlighted, wonder why not? :wink:


Ruth Davidson may be returning to action but in her absence the ground has shifted under her feet. Far from being the compassionate Conservative and portraying a sensible position on the EU, she’s now in charge of an organisation that’s openly abandoning its moderate and pragmatic position and dancing to the tune of lunatics down south.

[Ozyhibby]

Oh it exists in the real world, but rarely on here. I have rarely seen anyone on this board that backs Independence criticise the SNP. There seems to be some internal code against it. You saw what happened when 3 senior members had a go at the Cybernats, they were accused online of being Unionist plants and Mi5 sleeper agents. [emoji23] (Not on here I must add)

If there is an snp policy I disagree with I’ll say so but if it’s just tittle tattle that the party needs to deal with internally I’m unlikely to even read it in the first place.


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[weecounty hibby]

Maybe, but there is something fishy going on with things like all emails being deleted after only 14 months. I don't believe that at all. All sounds very convenient.
I'm not defending anything about the Salmond case but I work for a major blue chip company and our emails are auto deleted after 90 days unless you save them into another aechive folder. Even after doing that they are then auto deleted after 3 years. So it really isn't so strange. I'm sure if they really needed to some kind of techy needy geek would be able to recover them though

[Fife-Hibee]

Emails are never really "deleted". Clearing them from your inbox, junk folder..... etc doesn't delete them from existence. They still exist on a server somewhere to be accessed by MI5 and other agencies. If there's anything in these emails, you can be sure that they'll surface.

[allmodcons]

I think the Alex Salmond enquiry will burn a few names and Sturgeon will be forced to resign. The fact her husband is also CEO of the party is a cosy little relationship that is wide open for cover ups and abuse. Can anyone name another major political party where a husband and wife team are Party Leader and CEO.

Kenny MacAskill knows.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/kenny-macaskill-alex-salmond-case-will-leave-snp-leaders-tarnished-1-4918658

I am guessing he is a bitter ex colleague though.

"Lastly, there’s the unknown with the most significant factor being the fallout from the Alex Salmond prosecution to come.

From what I hear, some leading SNP reputations could be well and truly burned. Where that goes, no one knows but it’s a factor that has to be taken into account."

Dream on.

What evidence have you got of NS and her husband being involved in any "cover ups or abuse"?

Just another innuendo from someone whose dislike of anything SNP is bordering on unhealthy.

[James310]

Dream on.

What evidence have you got of NS and her husband being involved in any "cover ups or abuse"?

Just another innuendo from someone whose dislike of anything SNP is bordering on unhealthy.

Obviously none, hence why the words 'I think' prelude the post. It's called speculating and funnily enough lots of people do it on here. Have a look at the other threads and you will see other people doing it as well, then have a look at the title of this thread.

Don't you like free speech? As I asked someone else, or maybe it was you, do you want the government of the day held to account? If so, in what way could it be done in a way that is acceptable to you?

People will have a pop at the SNP, it will happen, but share with us how that is done in a way that you like, if that is possible.

Maybe just mild criticism is allowed, or post only facts at all times, or maybe we get you and a few others to 'approve' any posts before they get published?

[Fife-Hibee]

Obviously none, hence why the words 'I think' prelude the post. It's called speculating and funnily enough lots of people do it on here. Have a look at the other threads and you will see other people doing it as well, then have a look at the title of this thread.

Don't you like free speech? As I asked someone else, or maybe it was you, do you want the government of the day held to account? If so, in what way could it be done in a way that is acceptable to you?

People will have a pop at the SNP, it will happen, but share with us how that is done in a way that you like, if that is possible.

Maybe just mild criticism is allowed, or post only facts at all times, or maybe we get you and a few others to 'approve' any posts before they get published?

"Speculating" or "Hoping"?

You're constantly "speculating" something negative. Why do you never speculate something positive in regards to the SNP? It's almost as if your politics are tribal and dealing in facts would put you in an uncomfortable position when trying to defend your own political view points.

[James310]

"Speculating" or "Hoping"?

You're constantly "speculating" something negative. Why do you never speculate something positive in regards to the SNP? It's almost as if your politics are tribal and dealing in facts would put you in an uncomfortable position when trying to defend your own political view points.

Are you positive about all the other parties? Can't seem to remember you saying what a great policys Labour have, or that Ruth Davidson is doing a great job.

Shall we ban all speculation? So no discussion about Brexit and what might happen etc. It will become a boring place.

[Fife-Hibee]

Are you positive about all the other parties? Can't seem to remember you saying what a great policys Labour have, or that Ruth Davidson is doing a great job.

Shall we ban all speculation? So no discussion about Brexit and what might happen etc. It will become a boring place.

I won't say Ruth Davidson is doing a great job because she's not. I don't talk about how great labour policies are, because they're not currently in a position to implement any of them to see how great they actually are in practice.

Speculate if you wish. Just don't act surprised when people counter your speculation with speculation of their own.

[G B Young]

I won't say Ruth Davidson is doing a great job because she's not. I don't talk about how great labour policies are, because they're not currently in a position to implement any of them to see how great they actually are in practice.

Speculate if you wish. Just don't act surprised when people counter your speculation with speculation of their own.

I think you might grudgingly admit that from a Conservative perspective Ruth Davidson has done an outstanding job. She was without question the driving force behind the Tories gaining 13 seats across Scotland (almost double that of Labour) at the last General Election, having toiled along with just a single seat for many years. In Scottish Parliament terms she oversaw her party's best ever performance in 2016, more than doubling their number of seats and again finishing comfortably ahead of Labour. An almost unthinkable situation in Scotland, since probably as far back as the 1950s. The PM has a lot to thank her for and it's not surprising many Tories would like to see Davidson reconsider her pledge not to stand for a seat at Westminster.

Yes, the SNP remain comfortably the strongest party in Scotland, but less than three years ago few would have predicted the Tories would have left Labour trailing in their wake here. The reason Davidson is popular is because she's likeable, down to earth (ie relatively normal by the standards of politicians!) and possesses a genuine charisma that so few Scottish political leaders share. Labour in particular have endured a series of hopelessly ineffective leaders in Scotland. Davidson's certainly been missed at Holyrood while on maternity leave because without her in the chamber Sturgeon simply has too much personality and clout for her opponents. However, as the Kenny Macaskill comment piece points out, the ground has shifted since she's been away so she'll have her work cut out to build up support again. It will be interesting to see how she goes about that.

As for the speculation around the Salmond case, I think it's fair to say this article makes clear there could be some sticky days ahead for Sturgeon and the SNP, but as I said in an earlier post I'd be surprised if it were to prove damaging enough to unseat her:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/09/sturgeon-harassment-allegations-salmond-scottish-labour-tories

[Fife-Hibee]

I think you might grudgingly admit that from a Conservative perspective Ruth Davidson has done an outstanding job. She was without question the driving force behind the Tories gaining 13 seats across Scotland (almost double that of Labour) at the last General Election, having toiled along with just a single seat for many years. In Scottish Parliament terms she oversaw her party's best ever performance in 2016, more than doubling their number of seats and again finishing comfortably ahead of Labour. An almost unthinkable situation in Scotland, since probably as far back as the 1950s. The PM has a lot to thank her for and it's not surprising many Tories would like to see Davidson reconsider her pledge not to stand for a seat at Westminster.

Yes, the SNP remain comfortably the strongest party in Scotland, but less than three years ago few would have predicted the Tories would have left Labour trailing in their wake here. The reason Davidson is popular is because she's likeable, down to earth (ie relatively normal by the standards of politicians!) and possesses a genuine charisma that so few Scottish political leaders share. Labour in particular have endured a series of hopelessly ineffective leaders in Scotland. Davidson's certainly been missed at Holyrood while on maternity leave because without her in the chamber Sturgeon simply has too much personality and clout for her opponents. However, as the Kenny Macaskill comment piece points out, the ground has shifted since she's been away so she'll have her work cut out to build up support again. It will be interesting to see how she goes about that.

As for the speculation around the Salmond case, I think it's fair to say this article makes clear there could be some sticky days ahead for Sturgeon and the SNP, but as I said in an earlier post I'd be surprised if it were to prove damaging enough to unseat her:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/09/sturgeon-harassment-allegations-salmond-scottish-labour-tories


The Conservative gain in Scotland had nothing to do with Ruth Davidson. I doubt very many of those who voted Conservative looked at Davidson and thought, "oh, she sounds good". Their gain was purely circumstantial. They could have had a parrot repeating "no to independence" and "brexit means brexit" over and over again as their leader and the outcome would have been the same. Scottish Labour's campaign was based on where the conservatives were best placed to beat the SNP. They were quite happy to sit back and allow the conservatives to gain more seats in Scotland.

I don't agree with your view that she is "likeable". She u-turns and contradicts herself in every interview. She (along with Mundell) will say anything to suit the UK political party narrative. I find it impossible to like someone when I have no way of knowing what they personally think about anything themselves. They say what they're told to say and that's it.

[Ozyhibby]

Davidson has rebuilt the Scottish Tory party by wrapping it in the Union flag. There are no other policies to like or dislike. There is no intellectual thinking in her on what would make Scotland better. It’s all about the union, the union and the union.
Can anyone name another Scottish Tory policy? Anything positive that is. I’m sure there are a whole list of things they are against, like everything the SNP does. But can anyone name a single positive policy proposal that Ruth Davidson has put forward?
As for Richard Leonard, the less said the better.
And Willie Rennie seems harmless enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

The Conservative gain in Scotland had nothing to do with Ruth Davidson. I doubt very many of those who voted Conservative looked at Davidson and thought, "oh, she sounds good". Their gain was purely circumstantial. They could have had a parrot repeating "no to independence" and "brexit means brexit" over and over again as their leader and the outcome would have been the same. Scottish Labour's campaign was based on where the conservatives were best placed to beat the SNP. They were quite happy to sit back and allow the conservatives to gain more seats in Scotland.

I don't agree with your view that she is "likeable". She u-turns and contradicts herself in every interview. She (along with Mundell) will say anything to suit the UK political party narrative. I find it impossible to like someone when I have no way of knowing what they personally think about anything themselves. They say what they're told to say and that's it.

Even though by winning those 13 Scottish seats the Tories effectively kept Labour out of power by ensuring the SNP no longer had enough seats to provide the potential support needed to take Corbyn over the line? I find it hard to imagine that was the 'happily' agreed Labour party strategy in Scotland (mind you, does anyone know what Labour party policy is under the befuddled Corbyn or the faceless Leonard?)

I think you're also well off the mark to claim Davidson had nothing to do with the recent Conservative gains in Scotland. Can you honestly see voters being inspired by Jackson Carlaw or Annabel Goldie? No chance Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson would have lost their seats without Davidson at the Conservative helm. Don't forget, Labour also nailed their colours to the anti-independence mast but made only marginal progress on that ticket in 2017.

Quite a good article here on why she's popular and possesses that very rare ability in a Conservative politician to appeal to those who would previously never have voted Tory:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/03/ruth-davidson-tories-scottish-conservative

[Fife-Hibee]

Even though by winning those 13 Scottish seats the Tories effectively kept Labour out of power by ensuring the SNP no longer had enough seats to provide the potential support needed to take Corbyn over the line? I find it hard to imagine that was the 'happily' agreed Labour party strategy in Scotland (mind you, does anyone know what Labour party policy is under the befuddled Corbyn or the faceless Leonard?)

I think you're also well off the mark to claim Davidson had nothing to do with the recent Conservative gains in Scotland. Can you honestly see voters being inspired by Jackson Carlaw or Annabel Goldie? No chance Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson would have lost their seats without Davidson at the Conservative helm. Don't forget, Labour also nailed their colours to the anti-independence mast but made only marginal progress on that ticket in 2017.

Quite a good article here on why she's popular and possesses that very rare ability in a Conservative politician to appeal to those who would previously never have voted Tory:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/03/ruth-davidson-tories-scottish-conservative

What if I told you that not everybody involved with the Labour Party at the time wanted to see Corbyn as Prime Minister? I seem to recall Dugdale stating that there were "some areas in Scotland were the tories are best placed to beat the SNP". Hinting that it would be an acceptable outcome, as long as the SNP lost seats.

The voters were not "inspired" to vote for the Conservative Party based on Ruth Davidson or any other tory candidites in Scotland. It was all about British Unionism/Nationalism. It was purely identity politics. They campaigned on an anti-independence platform only, while the SNP made the mistake of focusing on actual policies when they should have pushed their pro-independence agenda.

Now with the utter mess brexit has become and the SNP now pushing their pro-independence agena, they appear to be on course to take back all of those seats again. Ruth Davidson being the leader of the Scottish Conservative Party is showing no signs of halting it.

[Smartie]

I like Ruth Davidson.

As a Tory, I found her an unusual person for me to like so I remember looking up her wikipedia page to find out more about her and her opinions.

It was of great concern to me that I found myself in agreement with many of her views, opinions and policy choices (for those of you who say she has no policy other than the Union, I suggest you look it up).

Obviously I have several fundamentally different opinions to hers, none more than the fact that she believes in Scotland remaining in the UK and I do not. It is a sad part of modern politics that this single policy holds so much sway though and that it is tempting to overlook so much that folk can have in common in favour of disagreement over a single constitutional position.

The current problems within the Conservative party are quite interesting, because what it is showing me is that there is a Conservative party and then there is a Conservative party. The centrist, "small c" conservatives such as Davidson are actually ok. The swivel eyed loons of the far right really aren't, and with that old conservative habit of being able to pull together as a party in their own best interest being quite strong (until recently) it is easy to group the likes of Davidson in with the likes of Rees-Mogg, when the reality is that she is far closer to the more moderate, left of centre folk than she'll ever be to the likes of Rees-Mogg.

I've never been happy that the Conservative party brand has been as tarnished as it has been in Scotland, even if I'm unlikely to ever vote for them. As a party they still command a reasonable chunk of the vote here and whether you like a party or not ( the same could be said for Labour) there is a degree of merit in most political standpoints, and even as opposition it can be useful to have a coherent, viable voice and alternative available. I'm not even against having Nigel Farage chuntering away in the background (it is his prominence and mainstream popularity that is deeply concerning).Having the Tories, the red Tories and the tartan Tories (as they can childishly refer to each other) to choose from isn't exactly a helpful situation.

I'd love for Ruth Davidson to be a prominent part of an independent Scotland, leading a positive centre-right party that may make up some sort of coalition with someone else. Or if not that, at least continue to snap at the heels of whoever is in government, letting the electorate know that if whoever is in charge isn't cutting it then there is an alternative waiting in the wings.

[Fife-Hibee]

I like Ruth Davidson.

As a Tory, I found her an unusual person for me to like so I remember looking up her wikipedia page to find out more about her and her opinions.

It was of great concern to me that I found myself in agreement with many of her views, opinions and policy choices (for those of you who say she has no policy other than the Union, I suggest you look it up).

Obviously I have several fundamentally different opinions to hers, none more than the fact that she believes in Scotland remaining in the UK and I do not. It is a sad part of modern politics that this single policy holds so much sway though and that it is tempting to overlook so much that folk can have in common in favour of disagreement over a single constitutional position.

The current problems within the Conservative party are quite interesting, because what it is showing me is that there is a Conservative party and then there is a Conservative party. The centrist, "small c" conservatives such as Davidson are actually ok. The swivel eyed loons of the far right really aren't, and with that old conservative habit of being able to pull together as a party in their own best interest being quite strong (until recently) it is easy to group the likes of Davidson in with the likes of Rees-Mogg, when the reality is that she is far closer to the more moderate, left of centre folk than she'll ever be to the likes of Rees-Mogg.

I've never been happy that the Conservative party brand has been as tarnished as it has been in Scotland, even if I'm unlikely to ever vote for them. As a party they still command a reasonable chunk of the vote here and whether you like a party or not ( the same could be said for Labour) there is a degree of merit in most political standpoints, and even as opposition it can be useful to have a coherent, viable voice and alternative available. I'm not even against having Nigel Farage chuntering away in the background (it is his prominence and mainstream popularity that is deeply concerning).Having the Tories, the red Tories and the tartan Tories (as they can childishly refer to each other) to choose from isn't exactly a helpful situation.

I'd love for Ruth Davidson to be a prominent part of an independent Scotland, leading a positive centre-right party that may make up some sort of coalition with someone else. Or if not that, at least continue to snap at the heels of whoever is in government, letting the electorate know that if whoever is in charge isn't cutting it then there is an alternative waiting in the wings.

Fair and balanced post to be fair. :aok:

If what you say is correct and Ruth Davidson does have personal views of her own, then she should be more open and honest about them whenever she gets the chance. Her transitioning from "the EU is good for Scotland" to "the free market and customs union is good for Scotland" to "full on Brexit is good for Scotland" is painful to listen to.

You can tell it's not really her that's speaking. So trusting anything she comes out with is pretty much impossible. It's a frustrating task trying to work out what she really thinks.

Every democracy requires alternatives. Even when they're not in power, they play an important role in holding the party of the day to account. The problem with modern day politics is that parties will do or say anything to try and gain an edge, even when they know that what they're doing or saying is unscrupulous. It's all about power at any cost now, even at the cost of the livelihoods of the very people they're suppost to be governing for.

[JeMeSouviens]

Even though by winning those 13 Scottish seats the Tories effectively kept Labour out of power by ensuring the SNP no longer had enough seats to provide the potential support needed to take Corbyn over the line? I find it hard to imagine that was the 'happily' agreed Labour party strategy in Scotland (mind you, does anyone know what Labour party policy is under the befuddled Corbyn or the faceless Leonard?)

I think you're also well off the mark to claim Davidson had nothing to do with the recent Conservative gains in Scotland. Can you honestly see voters being inspired by Jackson Carlaw or Annabel Goldie? No chance Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson would have lost their seats without Davidson at the Conservative helm. Don't forget, Labour also nailed their colours to the anti-independence mast but made only marginal progress on that ticket in 2017.

Quite a good article here on why she's popular and possesses that very rare ability in a Conservative politician to appeal to those who would previously never have voted Tory:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/03/ruth-davidson-tories-scottish-conservative

Well wide.

Tory election strategy in Scotland has been 2 fold:

- big up RD to the point where you would struggle to realise their leaflets were from the Conservative party, it looks like there's a "Ruth Davidson party"
- go all in British nationalist/anti-indyref2

I personally can't stand RD but then I never liked Salmond much and he's supposed to have similar voter friendly bonhomie, so maybe it's just me.

[G B Young]

What if I told you that not everybody involved with the Labour Party at the time wanted to see Corbyn as Prime Minister? I seem to recall Dugdale stating that there were "some areas in Scotland were the tories are best placed to beat the SNP". Hinting that it would be an acceptable outcome, as long as the SNP lost seats.

The voters were not "inspired" to vote for the Conservative Party based on Ruth Davidson or any other tory candidites in Scotland. It was all about British Unionism/Nationalism. It was purely identity politics. They campaigned on an anti-independence platform only, while the SNP made the mistake of focusing on actual policies when they should have pushed their pro-independence agenda.

Now with the utter mess brexit has become and the SNP now pushing their pro-independence agena, they appear to be on course to take back all of those seats again. Ruth Davidson being the leader of the Scottish Conservative Party is showing no signs of halting it.

Give her a chance. She only went back to work the other week. And I still think you're failing to credit her with having a significant impact on Conservative fortunes in Scotland. IIRC the election correspondence sent out back then focused as much on her as it did on the party itself. The Tories knew that in Davidson they had somebody who carried genuine voter appeal.

As for the next General Election, it's not scheduled until 2022. Given how the landscape has changed in the three years since the Brexit vote who knows where we'll be in three years' time? Yes, of course there may well be one before then, especially if the Tories can come up with a significantly more voter-friendly leader than May, but at present nobody really knows what politics is going to throw up from one day to the next.