SNP nonsense

[SHODAN]

We're not going to get another referendum until/if support goes back below 30%. They won't give us one if they think we might win it. If we go ahead and hold one anyway, only half the population will vote and they'll arrest half the government/dissolve parliament like in Catalonia.

We're anchored to the sinking ship and there's nothing we can do. Accept it, lads. :aok:

[James310]

Same poll had the following question.

Should Scotland remain in the UK or leave the UK. 61% remain, 39% leave.

If there is another referendum that should be the question as that's the choices.

39% though, who would have thought. Fife Hibee might need to get on that charm offensive after all and start knocking on those doors.

[Moulin Yarns]

Same poll had the following question.

Should Scotland remain in the UK or leave the UK. 61% remain, 39% leave.

If there is another referendum that should be the question as that's the choices.

39% though, who would have thought. Fife Hibee might need to get on that charm offensive after all and start knocking on those doors.

By wording it that way they got the same response to the EU referendum, funny that.

A rigged poll for Britain in Union? Who'd huv thunk it?

[JeMeSouviens]

By wording it that way they got the same response to the EU referendum, funny that.

A rigged poll for Britain in Union? Who'd huv thunk it?

Total nonsense. Remain/Leave has such strong EU related connotations and is actually now practically a culture war labelling. There's no way it should or would get approved as an indyref framing.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sounds more like the yes camp who would have their work cut out if the latest poll is anything to go by. Seems only one in five voters in Scotland back a second referendum:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17598776.scottish-independence-poll-one-in-five-scots-back-nicola-sturgeons-indyref2-plan/

You missed out "within 2 years" which is kinda relevant, no? :rolleyes:

I mean I don't want an indyref within 2 years because that would mean Brexit has gone ahead.

[JeMeSouviens]

I disagree (without wanting to get into the whole "lies" nonsense).

Everyone eligible to vote in Scotland could vote SNP, we could have all of our MPs, MSPs and councillors SNP and have them elected with any sort of mandate.

We need permission from elsewhere to hold a referendum to enact independence.

That's the way it works.

(In fairness, if it ended up how I describe, I don't doubt that permission would granted. Just that we would still need to be granted permission.)

Ok, I see what you mean. It's a bit difficult to establish any legal certainty because, as usual with this sort of thing, the lack of a UK constitution means it just has to be made up as it happens. I wouldn't personally favour a non-agreed indyref but in any case I don't think it matters that much because of the political reality as per your in parentheses bit.

[James310]

Total nonsense. Remain/Leave has such strong EU related connotations and is actually now practically a culture war labelling. There's no way it should or would get approved as an indyref framing.

Are the choices not just that? Remain in the UK or Leave the UK.

[JeMeSouviens]

I genuinely think people just want a break from more division and the resulting arguments they cause. They want our governments to focus on the things that matter like Education (number 1 priority remember), Health and Transport. I think this poll backs that up, the polls don't LIE. It's telling that after all that has gone on the last few years support for Indy has not risen at all, Nicola Sturgeon used to say support needed to be consistently at 60% before she would call for another referendum, it's never even been close to that.

Nicola Sturgeon tweeted that the Tories were obsessed with Independence, but we can see it's very much the other way.

Tories want a break from elections because they're going to lose big and from indyref2 because they're **** scared of losing that too.

Interesting Westminster VI in that poll:

SNP 41
Lab 24
Con 22
Lib 8

That's Tory wipeout territory. Hallelujah! :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

Are the choices not just that? Remain in the UK or Leave the UK.

Don't try to make yourself out to be even stupider than normal, ffs. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/878436/scots-reject-new-indyref2-timetable-but-two-thirds-want-the-vote-at-some-point-poll-reveals/


https://www.thenational.scot/news/17599787.scotland-in-union-poll-on-independence-spectacularly-backfires/



I know this is old news, but it doesn't paint them in a good light

https://www.thenational.scot/news/15803413.scotland-in-union-in-crisis-after-donor-details-are-leaked/

[Moulin Yarns]

Don't try to make yourself out to be even stupider than normal, ffs. :rolleyes:

You and I know that isn't possible 😉

[James310]

Don't try to make yourself out to be even stupider than normal, ffs. :rolleyes:

😂 You just don't like the question because the margin of defeat increases. If people can't work out the difference between remain or leave they don't deserve a vote.

[James310]

You and I know that isn't possible 😉

Every time I read your name I read Moulin Yams, very apt.

[Moulin Yarns]

Are the choices not just that? Remain in the UK or Leave the UK.

Ask the same question as in 2014 and the answer would be different. Think about it, they used remain /leave to deliberately obfuscate the issue.

[Moulin Yarns]

Every time I read your name I read Moulin Yams, very apt.

Then stop reading my name 😁 you are clearly easily confused

[James310]

Ask the same question as in 2014 and the answer would be different. Think about it, they used remain /leave to deliberately obfuscate the issue.

So people don't know the difference remain or leave?

[James310]

Then stop reading my name 😁 you are clearly easily confused

By you yes.

[JeMeSouviens]

😂 You just don't like the question because the margin of defeat increases. If people can't work out the difference between remain or leave they don't deserve a vote.

Ok, if you're really determined to carry through with the thick as mince look ...

I don't really care about the question. People would quickly get used to it and the results would return to normal. But the electoral commission won't allow it because of the reasons I stated above.

It says a lot about current Unionist desperation that they would attempt to mislead by changing the question though. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

So people don't know the difference remain or leave?

Have you taken part in opinion polls? Most people I know who have are just keen to get it over with and get on with the day job. They don't have any facts (remember them?) and are just fired questions.

[Moulin Yarns]

So people don't know the difference remain or leave?

Let's try and re-run the 2014 question with those answers

Do you want Scotland to be an independent Nation?

Remain

Leave

No, can't see how that will work.

How about

Should Scotland remain in the UK, or leave the UK

Yes

No

No, that wouldn't work either.

So, what should the question be? And what answers should be available?

[James310]

Have you taken part in opinion polls? Most people I know who have are just keen to get it over with and get on with the day job. They don't have any facts (remember them?) and are just fired questions.

For such a fundamental question that has never been out the media for years I would be surprised that people never knew full well what they were infact being asked. But of course your entitled to have a different opinion and perspective on that and I respect that. 👌

[Smartie]

😂 You just don't like the question because the margin of defeat increases. If people can't work out the difference between remain or leave they don't deserve a vote.

Has the EU referendum not given you any concerns about boiling down a fairly complicated constitutional issue to a simple yes/no question?

Remain was straightforward enough, but are we any further forward in working out what exactly "Brexit" means other than Brexit and some sort of red, white and blue bluster from TM?

I'm in favour of independence, cooler on the subject of a second referendum, and apprehensive about getting into even more of the bollocks of the type that the Brexit referendum has created.

[JeMeSouviens]

For such a fundamental question that has never been out the media for years I would be surprised that people never knew full well what they were infact being asked. But of course your entitled to have a different opinion and perspective on that and I respect that. 👌

A "respect" that extends to slagging his username a few posts ago. Disingenuous much? :rolleyes:

[James310]

A "respect" that extends to slagging his username a few posts ago. Disingenuous much? :rolleyes:

You must have missed what he called me, few pages back. Or did you call him out at the time?

[JeMeSouviens]

You must have missed what he called me, few pages back. Or did you call him out at the time?

No, I probably agreed.

[James310]

No, I probably agreed.

Showing your class there. I really wish you would follow through on your promise to ignore, its kind of boring now. I might try and ignore you, will see how that goes.

[Moulin Yarns]

For such a fundamental question that has never been out the media for years I would be surprised that people never knew full well what they were infact being asked. But of course your entitled to have a different opinion and perspective on that and I respect that. 👌

A question that has never been out of the media for years but when asked in an opinion poll has suddenly been given different answers?

Please explain how that wasn't going to be confusing for the poll sample?

[James310]

A question that has never been out of the media for years but when asked in an opinion poll has suddenly been given different answers?

Please explain how that wasn't going to be confusing for the poll sample?

No, we have always been faced with the choice of remaining in the UK or leaving the UK. You can frame it in many ways and make it all fluffy if you like but that's what it boils down to. No matter the question the result will produce remain in the UK or leave the UK.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/ProfPMiddleton/status/1121606821456826368?s=19

😁

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1121651699016290305?s=19

[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/ProfPMiddleton/status/1121606821456826368?s=19

😁

Would be nice to be rid of the last 3 as well, but ho hum. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

No, we have always been faced with the choice of remaining in the UK or leaving the UK. You can frame it in many ways and make it all fluffy if you like but that's what it boils down to. No matter the question the result will produce remain in the UK or leave the UK.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1121651699016290305?s=19

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1121527810319843338?s=19

[Moulin Yarns]

No, we have always been faced with the choice of remaining in the UK or leaving the UK. You can frame it in many ways and make it all fluffy if you like but that's what it boils down to. No matter the question the result will produce remain in the UK or leave the UK.

See my post above that explains why the answer must match the question.

[James310]

See my post above that explains why the answer must match the question.

Shock, Indy supporters don't like it.

[Moulin Yarns]

See my post above that explains why the answer must match the question.

I have a song in my head. 😁


https://youtu.be/TEC4nZ-yga8

[Moulin Yarns]

Shock, Indy supporters don't like it.

Shock, unionist denies the truth, again.

[Moulin Yarns]

Shock, Indy supporters don't like it.

Check out @MhairiHunter’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1121652732060766209?s=09

[grunt]

Shock, Indy supporters don't like it.
Shock, you didn't answer his point.

[stoneyburn hibs]

https://twitter.com/ProfPMiddleton/status/1121606821456826368?s=19

😁

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1121651699016290305?s=19

Superb

[Bristolhibby]

No, we have always been faced with the choice of remaining in the UK or leaving the UK. You can frame it in many ways and make it all fluffy if you like but that's what it boils down to. No matter the question the result will produce remain in the UK or leave the UK.

If you leave the U.K. the U.K. ceases to exist, so what are you leaving?

The Kingdoms remain united (Union of Crowns 1603), is Scotland getting a new King?

Or should it not just be "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

J

[matty_f]

There's been a bit of name-calling and abuse across a couple of threads.

Final call to cut it out.

Discuss the topic but play the ball, not the man.

[Peevemor]

If you leave the U.K. the U.K. ceases to exist, so what are you leaving?

The Kingdoms remain united (Union of Crowns 1603), is Scotland getting a new King?

Or should it not just be "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

J

The UK is Great Britain & Northern ireland, if Scotland leaves I'd imagine it would the the United Kingdom of England, Wales & N. Ireland.

[Moulin Yarns]

The UK is Great Britain & Northern ireland, if Scotland leaves I'd imagine it would the the United Kingdom of England, Wales & N. Ireland.

Can't we have a United Kingdom of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[James310]

If you leave the U.K. the U.K. ceases to exist, so what are you leaving?

The Kingdoms remain united (Union of Crowns 1603), is Scotland getting a new King?

Or should it not just be "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

J

Sure OK then, so the UK would not exist? 😂 So it would be called what then?

[JeMeSouviens]

The UK is Great Britain & Northern ireland, if Scotland leaves I'd imagine it would the the United Kingdom of England, Wales & N. Ireland.

Previous to the Eng-Scot union, there was just England. I suspect they will just make like we were never here and keep calling it the UK of GB and NI. When Ireland reunites it gets trickier.

[Peevemor]

Previous to the Eng-Scot union, there was just England. I suspect they will just make like we were never here and keep calling it the UK of GB and NI. When Ireland reunites it gets trickier.

Is Great Britain not the island? Maybe it'll be the UK of half of GB & NI???

[JeMeSouviens]

Is Great Britain not the island? Maybe it'll be the UK of half of GB & NI???

Yes. But politically it was the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scots. The Welsh were just incorporated wholesale into England.

[Moulin Yarns]

The thoughts that independence support equates to anti English sentiments are not helpful.

England, the nation, clearly voted no to being a member of the EU, so did Wales but I'm sure they are open to persuasion.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all celtic nations, we could include Cornwall and Brittany as a league of celtic nations.

[matty_f]

I realise I am about to be told to butt out of admin responsibility but ...

... what is this if not "playing the man, not the ball?"

Just because it's couched in innuendo doesn't make it less offensive.

No telling off, I agree.

Quoted post deleted, as will further posts that stray into personal abuse. I'm not going back through the thread but anything from the point where the warning was issued onwards will be deleted, so save yourselves the time and energy and play nice, please :greengrin

[James310]

Your interpretation tells me all I need to know. Your thoughts that independence support equates to anti English sentiments are not helpful.

England, the nation, clearly voted no to being a member of the EU, so did Wales but I'm sure they are open to persuasion.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all celtic nations, we could include Cornwall and Brittany as a league of celtic nations.

Good claw back but think it was very telling. I don't think all nationalists are driven by anti English feelings, but I think there are more than some people would like to admit. I mean nobody would admit openly to it would they (apart from the cybernats who openly post regular reminders about it)

[Moulin Yarns]

No telling off, I agree.

Quoted post deleted, as will further posts that stray into personal abuse. I'm not going back through the thread but anything from the point where the warning was issued onwards will be deleted, so save yourselves the time and energy and play nice, please :greengrin


Both JMS and I have quoted the deleted posts. Just in case you want us to remove them.

Edit I did it anyway.

[JeMeSouviens]

The idea that Scottish independence is motivated by anti-English racism is a very, very, very, very, very tired old smear.

[Moulin Yarns]

Good claw back but think it was very telling. I don't think all nationalists are driven by anti English feelings, but I think there are more than some people would like to admit. I mean nobody would admit openly to it would they (apart from the cybernats who openly post regular reminders about it)

Just for clarification, I don't claim to be a nationalist.

I believe in having self confidence in my country.

[matty_f]

Both JMS and I have quoted the deleted posts. Just in case you want us to remove them.

Edit I did it anyway.

:aok:

[RyeSloan]

The idea that Scottish independence is motivated by anti-English racism is a very, very, very, very, very tired old smear.

But yet to some there is an intrinsic link to it in the narrative used by the nationalists..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/27/parallels-scottish-nationalism-racism-sadiq-khan

[JeMeSouviens]

But yet to some there is an intrinsic link to it in the narrative used by the nationalists..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/27/parallels-scottish-nationalism-racism-sadiq-khan

You'll forgive me if I don't rush to give credence to articles about the Scottish indy movement written by Better Together activists.

[cabbageandribs1875]

You'll forgive me if I don't rush to give credence to articles about the Scottish indy movement written by Better Together activists.



i've never clicked on, and then closed a webpage quicker, if only the link given had included 'the guardian' in the title i could have saved my keyboard an unnecessary click, and now i'l need to delete a damn cookie from my poor browser


sigh, lesson learned though

[James310]

You'll forgive me if I don't rush to give credence to articles about the Scottish indy movement written by Better Together activists.

But tweets from Mhairi Hunter who works for Nicola Sturgeon are gospel and applaued by many as being the definitive answer on the subject debated earlier. I mean she will have a well balanced view of things.

[Moulin Yarns]

But tweets from Mhairi Hunter who works for Nicola Sturgeon are gospel and applaued by many as being the definitive answer on the subject debated earlier. I mean she will have a well balanced view of things.

Yay. At last you are getting the message 😉

[Peevemor]

But tweets from Mhairi Hunter who works for Nicola Sturgeon are gospel and applaued by many as being the definitive answer on the subject debated earlier. I mean she will have a well balanced view of things.

Can I ask, are you a Hibs supporter? You don't appear to comment on anything Hibs.

Are you just here in an effort to convert us English-hating Nats?

[JeMeSouviens]

But tweets from Mhairi Hunter who works for Nicola Sturgeon are gospel and applaued by many as being the definitive answer on the subject debated earlier. I mean she will have a well balanced view of things.

- "gospel and applauded by many" is woefully inaccurate if you look back
- there is (very obviously to anyone attempting to be remotely fair or objective) no equivalence between

an article presented as an objective look at the Indy movement but that actually comes from a very partisan source

and

a tweet from the upfront account of an SNP councillor about an obviously partisan attempt to produce a dodgy poll result

[Fife-Hibee]

Sounds more like the yes camp who would have their work cut out if the latest poll is anything to go by. Seems only one in five voters in Scotland back a second referendum:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17598776.scottish-independence-poll-one-in-five-scots-back-nicola-sturgeons-indyref2-plan/

If you actually look at the polling data, you'll find that it's 34% who don't want another referendum. The YES option was divided up into multiple options so they could spin it this way.

Desperate tactics really. Quite sad to see some people actually fall for it though, all because they can't be bothered to look at the raw data. They just like the big bold headlines in the newspaper.

[RyeSloan]

i've never clicked on, and then closed a webpage quicker, if only the link given had included 'the guardian' in the title i could have saved my keyboard an unnecessary click, and now i'l need to delete a damn cookie from my poor browser


sigh, lesson learned though

So what is the .net list of approved source of comment then?

Personally I find various sources informative from all sides and always worth validating and testing my views against what others are saying.

Seems to me there is quite a few that simply dismiss the source or the commentator or the publication or whatever simply because the view point expressed may disagree with theirs. That’s the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and whistling when someone dares to put a counter argument or point.

While it was never perfect this forum used to at least contain some level of debate and opposing views could be argued out with some valid points and counter points.

Sadly it just comes across now as people entrenched in their own perspective shouting as loud as they can they they are right and everyone else is wrong without bothering to even consider the need to explain why, or in this case even bother reading the article because it came from the Guardian.

I’ll leave it here and retreat to my occasional browsing of the shouty threads and ad hominem posts.

[G B Young]

So what is the .net list of approved source of comment then?

Personally I find various sources informative from all sides and always worth validating and testing my views against what others are saying.

Seems to me there is quite a few that simply dismiss the source or the commentator or the publication or whatever simply because the view point expressed may disagree with theirs. That’s the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and whistling when someone dares to put a counter argument or point.

While it was never perfect this forum used to at least contain some level of debate and opposing views could be argued out with some valid points and counter points.

Sadly it just comes across now as people entrenched in their own perspective shouting as loud as they can they they are right and everyone else is wrong without bothering to even consider the need to explain why, or in this case even bother reading the article because it came from the Guardian.

I’ll leave it here and retreat to my occasional browsing of the shouty threads and ad hominem posts.

Good post - and one that could apply to the world outside this forum. IMHO the blame for this can be squarely apportioned to the fallout from both the independence referendum and Brexit. Both have bitterly divided nations and reduced 'debate' to little more than slanging matches.

[G B Young]

Every time I read your name I read Moulin Yams, very apt.

You're not the only one! I'd assumed it was some sort of slight on the yams connected to the Moulin Rouge until I read your post and realised I'd been reading it wrong!

I've now checked out what Moulin YARNS actually is and discovered the existence of the village of Moulin. Always interesting to learn something new.

[Fife-Hibee]

You're not the only one! I'd assumed it was some sort of slight on the yams connected to the Moulin Rouge until I read your post and realised I'd been reading it wrong!

I've now checked out what Moulin YARNS actually is and discovered the existence of the village of Moulin. Always interesting to learn something new.

Yep. An issue that is now seen world wide was all the fault of 2 referendums held within the UK. You should write an article about it and get it published in the Daily Mail.

[G B Young]

I genuinely think people just want a break from more division and the resulting arguments they cause. They want our governments to focus on the things that matter like Education (number 1 priority remember), Health and Transport. I think this poll backs that up, the polls don't LIE. It's telling that after all that has gone on the last few years support for Indy has not risen at all, Nicola Sturgeon used to say support needed to be consistently at 60% before she would call for another referendum, it's never even been close to that.

Nicola Sturgeon tweeted that the Tories were obsessed with Independence, but we can see it's very much the other way.

Couldn't agree more. Another Brexit referendum or another Scottish independence referendum would only stir up fresh division if the fallout from the first two is anything to go by. Some claim these referendums were wonderful expressions of democracy in action. Personally I found them to be the most bitter and divisive UK events in modern times and would gladly have them erased from history.

[Fife-Hibee]

Couldn't agree more. Another Brexit referendum or another Scottish independence referendum would only stir up fresh division if the fallout from the first two is anything to go by. Some claim these referendums were wonderful expressions of democracy in action. Personally I found them to be the most bitter and divisive UK events in modern times and would gladly have them erased from history.

In that case, we should stop football as well, as it causes divisions between people.

You talk about division as if it's a bad thing. You're basically saying that we should all accept the status quo, because it's what you want.

[Moulin Yarns]

You're not the only one! I'd assumed it was some sort of slight on the yams connected to the Moulin Rouge until I read your post and realised I'd been reading it wrong!

I've now checked out what Moulin YARNS actually is and discovered the existence of the village of Moulin. Always interesting to learn something new.

Where I live, Moulin, or at least close to it, and my hobby which involves yarn.

[JeMeSouviens]

Couldn't agree more. Another Brexit referendum or another Scottish independence referendum would only stir up fresh division if the fallout from the first two is anything to go by. Some claim these referendums were wonderful expressions of democracy in action. Personally I found them to be the most bitter and divisive UK events in modern times and would gladly have them erased from history.

I just want to be on the winning side for once. It's like Hibs and cup finals. :boo hoo:

[cabbageandribs1875]

So what is the .net list of approved source of comment then?

Personally I find various sources informative from all sides and always worth validating and testing my views against what others are saying.

Seems to me there is quite a few that simply dismiss the source or the commentator or the publication or whatever simply because the view point expressed may disagree with theirs. That’s the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and whistling when someone dares to put a counter argument or point.

While it was never perfect this forum used to at least contain some level of debate and opposing views could be argued out with some valid points and counter points.

Sadly it just comes across now as people entrenched in their own perspective shouting as loud as they can they they are right and everyone else is wrong without bothering to even consider the need to explain why, or in this case even bother reading the article because it came from the Guardian.

I’ll leave it here and retreat to my occasional browsing of the shouty threads and ad hominem posts.



why didn't you quote the poster that actually quoted you ? i was only agreeing with his response, odd, anyway..i do actually like a bit of balance, and i do apologise for not reading the article before commenting :aok:

[RyeSloan]

why didn't you quote the poster that actually quoted you ? i was only agreeing with his response, odd, anyway..i do actually like a bit of balance, and i do apologise for not reading the article before commenting :aok:

Mainly because your comment came second and I don’t know how to multi quote on tapa and both responses were relevant to my point.

Also though because you directly dismissed the article due to the paper it was published by. Which struck me as particularly odd as it’s been a frequent source of links on .net before, no doubt due to its propensity to be rather left in its views.

It therefore struck me that the habit of dismissing stuff out of hand due to simply the publication or journo without bothering to even construct a basic argument as to the content had become rather common place and almost to the point that no matter what is linked there appears to be some reason it’s dismissed out of hand.

In this case I was simply trying to show why people consider some of the Indy narratives as inherently anti English and exemplify why. It was after all the subject of the current ‘debating’ point on the thread. So I thought it may have been useful to inform that debate and provide opportunity for people to evidence why that view was maybe incorrect or indeed why some of the Indy narrative could be seen in that way and for people to take that on board.

Instead we get instant dismissal because the journo’s position on the constitutional debate. So a stance of they are not on my side so I ain’t listening

Or in your case because of the paper it was published by. So a stance of I’m not even going to bother listening because I already disagree.


Clearly my point is a general one so wasn’t aimed at you in particular, I just happened to quote your post as an example.

Anyway as I said I’ll crawl back under my rock and leave you guys n galls to it (well most of the time anyway!).

[JeMeSouviens]

Mainly because your comment came second and I don’t know how to multi quote on tapa and both responses were relevant to my point.

Also though because you directly dismissed the article due to the paper it was published by. Which struck me as particularly odd as it’s been a frequent source of links on .net before, no doubt due to its propensity to be rather left in its views.

It therefore struck me that the habit of dismissing stuff out of hand due to simply the publication or journo without bothering to even construct a basic argument as to the content had become rather common place and almost to the point that no matter what is linked there appears to be some reason it’s dismissed out of hand.

In this case I was simply trying to show why people consider some of the Indy narratives as inherently anti English and exemplify why. It was after all the subject of the current ‘debating’ point on the thread. So I thought it may have been useful to inform that debate and provide opportunity for people to evidence why that view was maybe incorrect or indeed why some of the Indy narrative could be seen in that way and for people to take that on board.

Instead we get instant dismissal because the journo’s position on the constitutional debate. So a stance of they are not on my side so I ain’t listening

Or in your case because of the paper it was published by. So a stance of I’m not even going to bother listening because I already disagree.


Clearly my point is a general one so wasn’t aimed at you in particular, I just happened to quote your post as an example.

Anyway as I said I’ll crawl back under my rock and leave you guys n galls to it (well most of the time anyway!).

I love the Guardian.

I was already familiar with the linked article. It’s not by a journalist. It’s a comment piece by an actual BT activist and it’s terrible and I didn’t have time to go through a full analysis of why. Soz.

If you really feel the Indy movement is anti-English you’d be much better explaining it yourself. It seems to me, empirically, that the Indy movement is anti people who dismiss or disparage Scottish independence and is equal opportunity at being anti them independent of nationality or ethnic origin.

[James310]

After writing that article in the Guardian the author received racist abuse and feared for her safety.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/28/woman-who-linked-racism-with-scottish-nationalism-sadiq-khan-quits-twitter-over-safety-fears

[JeMeSouviens]

Response to Sadiq Khan and the Guardian comment piece by Robert
Somynne (who, although it shouldn’t matter to the salience of his argument, is a black Englishman).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/01/scottish-nationalists-racist-uk-bigotry-sadiq-khan

[JeMeSouviens]

The funny thing about the endless very, very, very, very, very tired old smear that Scottish independence is motivated by racism is that it really just doesn’t work. It doesn’t work because almost everyone has direct experience of Indy activists and they’re patently just not racists. It’s pretty weird the way Unionists seem to think if they just flog that horse a wee bit harder ...

[Fife-Hibee]

After writing that article in the Guardian the author received racist abuse and feared for her safety.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/28/woman-who-linked-racism-with-scottish-nationalism-sadiq-khan-quits-twitter-over-safety-fears

It's standard to write an anti-scotland piece then cry anglophobia when it inevitably stirs up a reaction. It's a pretty tiresome tactic. :yawn:

[Tornadoes70]

The funny thing about the endless very, very, very, very, very tired old smear that Scottish independence is motivated by racism is that it really just doesn’t work. It doesn’t work because almost everyone has direct experience of Indy activists and they’re patently just not racists. It’s pretty weird the way Unionists seem to think if they just flog that horse a wee bit harder ...

Unfortunately for the Scottish Nationalists its entirely expected your party will endear itself to the worse type of nutter control freak nazi types.

Nationalism and its extremism is why I joined the Labour party back in the 1980's.

National Front, Tommy Robinson, Adolf Hitler etc all wrap/wrapped themselves into a frenzied Nationalist ideology that for me is entirely abhorrent.

Nationalism should be fought against at every turn.

Mon Labour!!!

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190426/2a23a0b38eca40a1075beb7837b2d33c.jpg


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[Tornadoes70]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190426/2a23a0b38eca40a1075beb7837b2d33c.jpg


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Got to admire the Nationalists brass necks.

They lost the once in a generation 2014 vote but feel emboldened to post garbage without advocating their Nationalist arguments inward looking separation.

Like Brexiteers they promise false new dawns that hurt the poorest the most.

Mon Labour!!!

[Mr Grieves]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190426/2a23a0b38eca40a1075beb7837b2d33c.jpg


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https://twitter.com/Ross_Greer/status/1121941287173853185?s=19

Ruth Davidson's Scottish Tories and Labour punished for their position on brexit?

[marinello59]

It's standard to write an anti-scotland piece then cry anglophobia when it inevitably stirs up a reaction. It's a pretty tiresome tactic. :yawn:

The article acknowledges that many on the side of of Independence gave a respectful reply to her views. Those of us on the Yes side should also acknowledge that others behave badly and condemn it rather than claiming it’s the victims own fault.
Dismissing her opinion piece as anti-Scotland only helps to reinforce her point.

[hibsbollah]

It's standard to write an anti-scotland piece then cry anglophobia when it inevitably stirs up a reaction. It's a pretty tiresome tactic. :yawn:

It really isnt an anti-Scotland piece. Its actually thoughtful and nuanced,by a respected academic, as evidenced by her assertion that 'Equating racism with Scottish nationalism is a massive false equivalence'. If Stuart Campbell wants to debate what shes saying he should debate the content with her, instead of firing off sweary words on twitter, presumably after reading a headline and nothing else.

[Bristolhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190426/2a23a0b38eca40a1075beb7837b2d33c.jpg


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49-51 and the starters gun hasn't even been fired yet.

J

[GlesgaeHibby]

Unfortunately for the Scottish Nationalists its entirely expected your party will endear itself to the worse type of nutter control freak nazi types.

Nationalism and its extremism is why I joined the Labour party back in the 1980's.

National Front, Tommy Robinson, Adolf Hitler etc all wrap/wrapped themselves into a frenzied Nationalist ideology that for me is entirely abhorrent.

Nationalism should be fought against at every turn.

Mon Labour!!!

The vast majority of SNP supporters would agree that nazi/far right/Tommy Robinson ideology is abhorrent. It's precisely why your equating the SNP with far right wing extremism is utter nonsense.

The Yes campaign is a civic, inclusive movement. It's not the SNP that have created the hostile environment for immigrants.

If Labour truly cared about ridding Scotland of brutal Tory governments they'd back independence.

[Peevemor]

You're not the only one! I'd assumed it was some sort of slight on the yams connected to the Moulin Rouge until I read your post and realised I'd been reading it wrong!

I've now checked out what Moulin YARNS actually is and discovered the existence of the village of Moulin. Always interesting to learn something new.

I'd been in the Moulin Inn (and in various states) plenty times before I discovered there was a village of the same name just along the road.

[Peevemor]

After writing that article in the Guardian the author received racist abuse and feared for her safety.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/28/woman-who-linked-racism-with-scottish-nationalism-sadiq-khan-quits-twitter-over-safety-fearsYou still didn't answer my question as to whether you're a Hibs supporter.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190427/ceab4a925657d60eab3afa7aad66fefa.jpg

Campaign of to a decent start.


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[The Modfather]

Unfortunately for the Scottish Nationalists its entirely expected your party will endear itself to the worse type of nutter control freak nazi types.

Nationalism and its extremism is why I joined the Labour party back in the 1980's.

National Front, Tommy Robinson, Adolf Hitler etc all wrap/wrapped themselves into a frenzied Nationalist ideology that for me is entirely abhorrent.

Nationalism should be fought against at every turn.

Mon Labour!!!

I think your post would be better in a new thread debating nationalism as an ideology. It’s poor from you to casually link Scottish Nationalism (which is not one and the same as the SNP) to the far right as it bears no reality to the real world. Putting aside the merits, or not, of Scottish Independence it’s a very inclusive movement.

There are “nutter control freak nazi types” in all walks of life, including Unionism, which I believe is your preference, and is every bit a nationalism as Scottish Independence is. Unionism isn’t for me but there’s nothing wrong with it in itself. It would be just as wrong to highlight the extremists in the union and casually equate unionism to the the likes of Hitler & the BNP.

[James310]

You still didn't answer my question as to whether you're a Hibs supporter.

Are you a Hibs fan? Unlike you I am not checking your post history as it's a bit creepy and stalkerish.

Yes I am and will be at the game tomorrow, please stop being creepy though and stop with the personal questions.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd been in the Moulin Inn (and in various states) plenty times before I discovered there was a village of the same name just along the road.

Sorry Peevemor, but the Moulin Inn is the very centre of the village :greengrin everything revolves around the bar :wink:

[Peevemor]

Are you a Hibs fan? Unlike you I am not checking your post history as it's a bit creepy and stalkerish.

Yes I am and will be at the game tomorrow, please stop being creepy though and stop with the personal questions.Creepy and stalkerish?

I looked at you posting history (which took about 10 seconds) and didn't see anything directly related to Hibs, which makes me wonder if your simply a pro union activist parachuted in to help us see the light.

And I'll ask whatever questions I want.

[Peevemor]

Sorry Peevemor, but the Moulin Inn is the very centre of the village :greengrin everything revolves around the bar :wink:Honestly, it wasn't until I was invited to the late Gordon Duncan's house for the first time that I realised that there was more to Moulin than the Moulin.

[JeMeSouviens]

Wow, that yougov poll! They’ve been at the No friendly end of the polling spectrum for ages. This looks like a genuine move.

Only one poll but v encouraging.

[JeMeSouviens]

Even better news looking at yougov’s numbers. Including DKs it’s Y44 N45 so we’re not seeing a N->DK shift, it is folk actually going all the way to Y.

Westminster VI has the Tories collapsing and their Holyrood numbers has SNP+Green as a comfortable pro Yes majority.

All in all, v v encouraging!

[Moulin Yarns]

Honestly, it wasn't until I was invited to the late Gordon Duncan's house for the first time that I realised that there was more to Moulin than the Moulin.

Ah yes. Gordy, there was a musician. I could tell a few stories about him 😉

[matty_f]

I hope that the SNP learn from the Brexit referendum, and even the last Indy referendum, and ensure that there's a requirement for a bigger winning margin than first past the post gives.

[James310]

Outside the SNP conference today a large banner "England get out of Scotland"

[Ozyhibby]

I hope that the SNP learn from the Brexit referendum, and even the last Indy referendum, and ensure that there's a requirement for a bigger winning margin than first past the post gives.

There is nothing wrong with 50%+1 . The problem with brexit is the implementation, not the result.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Outside the SNP conference today a large banner "England get out of Scotland"

Not sure how true that actually is. But even if it is, they'll be referring to English politics and I agree with them.

[cabbageandribs1875]

The vast majority of SNP supporters would agree that nazi/far right/Tommy Robinson ideology is abhorrent. It's precisely why your equating the SNP with far right wing extremism is utter nonsense.

The Yes campaign is a civic, inclusive movement. It's not the SNP that have created the hostile environment for immigrants.

If Labour truly cared about ridding Scotland of brutal Tory governments they'd back independence.



even stopping amalgamating with the tories on Scottish Councils would be a start, it's sickening watching scottish labour vying with the tories to be the number one unionist party

[Moulin Yarns]

Outside the SNP conference today a large banner "England get out of Scotland"


No, it appears that the snp are more inclusive than you would like.

https://twitter.com/stephenpaton134/status/1122102239462666241?s=19

[James310]

No, it appears that the snp are more inclusive than you would like.

https://twitter.com/stephenpaton134/status/1122102239462666241?s=19

You saying it's not there? What's this then?

https://twitter.com/andrewlearmonth/status/1122077056764977152?s=19

[Moulin Yarns]

You saying it's not there? What's this then?

https://twitter.com/andrewlearmonth/status/1122077056764977152?s=19

OK, it's there, but if you bother to read the responses to it...

[G B Young]

In that case, we should stop football as well, as it causes divisions between people.

You talk about division as if it's a bad thing. You're basically saying that we should all accept the status quo, because it's what you want.

Yes, I recall a couple of guys I knew when I was a student who used to sell Socialist Worker and would talk about how football was a dastardly plot to divide the working classes and blunt the revolution...

I don't think it's true to say that I only want to accept the status quo. I voted for devolution 20 years back, along with the vast majority of the Scottish electorate (though IIRC correctly voter turnout was relatively low for such a significant poll) because I felt it was the right thing for Scotland - and it's good to see the way things have evolved since then from a 'pretendy wee parliament' (as Billy Connolly used to call it) into a heavily devolved body. I also think a return of a devolved regional assembly style system for England would deliver a more representative way of governing day to day matters.

I do not, however, wish to see Scotland become wholly independent. Firstly, I think the set-up we have achieved works well and secondly while I'm proud to be Scottish I have also always felt 100% British too. This, I feel, is the SNP's blind spot. It's not a political standpoint, it's simply the way a very large number of Scots feel and was what underpinned the way they voted in 2014. I think it's something Nicola Sturgeon et al underestimate (or understand) and therefore fail to respect.

Yes, the SNP's raison d'etre is to achieve independence for Scotland and I didn't expect them to simply down tools after the electorate rejected it five years ago, but I did expect more respect for the majority who voted no. Rather than adopting a plough on regardless mentality in the hope that one day enough no voters will switch sides, how about actually trying to understand why they are of a mindset to remain part of the UK?

Put it this way, had the result gone the other way, how much respect would the SNP have for an incessant demand by no voters for another referendum to reverse independence?

[Just Alf]

OK, it's there, but if you bother to read the responses to it...There's a bit of a difference between the two pics... You can count the number of people involved on 2 fingers on one and I'd need to use both hands/feet and rope some of you in also to count people in the other.

From that I think I can work out which one is more reflective of the Independence movement :agree:


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[James310]

OK, it's there, but if you bother to read the responses to it...

Replace the word England with another country on that banner, say Pakistan.

[marinello59]

You saying it's not there? What's this then?

https://twitter.com/andrewlearmonth/status/1122077056764977152?s=19

Every major event attracts a few oddballs. Anything to say about some of the right wing Brexiteers who hang about outside Westminster?

[Just Alf]

Replace the word England with another country on that banner, say Pakistan.Where's Pakistan involved? They've no control over the people of Scotland.

Don't get me wrong, the two guys are quacks, idiots, maybe even anti English racists but they are way out on the fringe and all movements have them as has been repeatedly stated on here. Are you really trying to say that these guys are representative of the Indy movement?



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[Moulin Yarns]

Replace the word England with another country on that banner, say Pakistan.

Sean Clarkin, look him up, gives Wings a run for the money.

[JeMeSouviens]

Where's Pakistan involved? They've no control over the people of Scotland.

Don't get me wrong, the two guys are quacks, idiots, maybe even anti English racists but they are way out on the fringe and all movements have them as has been repeatedly stated on here. Are you really trying to say that these guys are representative of the Indy movement?



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It’s that loonball Sean Clerkin. Nowt to do with the SNP. He’s the guy who chased Iain Gray into a sandwich shop all those years ago. He’s in a tiny group of nutters called Scottish Resistance.

[Hiber-nation]

You saying it's not there? What's this then?

https://twitter.com/andrewlearmonth/status/1122077056764977152?s=19

Do you think Sean Clerkin of the Scottish Resistance (actually I thought he'd left them) is a typical Independence supporter?

I remember him bringing along some Lees teacakes for a photo opportunity at Tunnocks.

[Ozyhibby]

Aren’t those two guys protesting against the SNP?


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[ronaldo7]

Aren’t those two guys protesting against the SNP?


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Probably because we've got enough English members of the SNP to fill princes st gardens.

[James310]

Sean Clarkin, look him up, gives Wings a run for the money.

The same wings that was extensively linked to on this site not that long ago with posters encouraging and promoting him?

No, I don't believe that is what all Nationalists are like, of course not. But I do think there is an anti English element in the SNP or Indy Movement and they are driven by a hatred for the English. Scots are just as racist as the English, yet we seem to think we are somehow better than them. We are all very alike.

Article below is about a book launched last year about the subject.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44040251

[James310]

So SNP leadership defeated and members choose a currency path that was favoured by 14% of Scots in a poll on currency options.

If your mortgage free and have little savings or pension your probably OK, everyone else should be a little more worried now. That's not a scare story, there is a very real chance a new Scottish currency will quickly depreciate against the £ so if you get paid in the new currency but have for example a mortgage in £ then your contracted to pay it back in £, a 10% deprecation of the Scottish currency means your mortgage payments go up 10%. Likewise if your private pension is paid in £ your going to be at the mercy of exchange rates. If you own a business and buy and sell from suppliers in the rest of the UK then again your at the mercy of the foreign exchange market as you will be paid in £ and will need £ to buy your goods but then change it back into the new currency.

Don't pretend a brand new currency in a brand new country is going to be a strong currency, the money markets will sense an opportunity and attack it. It could get very messy.

[Just Alf]

The same wings that was extensively linked to on this site not that long ago with posters encouraging and promoting him?

No, I don't believe that is what all Nationalists are like, of course not. But I do think there is an anti English element in the SNP or Indy Movement and they are driven by a hatred for the English. Scots are just as racist as the English, yet we seem to think we are somehow better than them. We are all very alike.

Article below is about a book launched last year about the subject.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44040251You're being economical with the truth in that 1st paragraph.

You'll not find a single post "encouraging and promoting" the guy, most think he's a prat (or worse). What you will find are post sharing information (with links to any data)

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[James310]

You're being economical with the truth in that 1st paragraph.

You'll not find a single post "encouraging and promoting" the guy, most think he's a prat (or worse). What you will find are post sharing information (with links to any data)

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There was one poster who was a big fan. Must of liked what he was saying.

[Just Alf]

There was one poster who was a big fan. Must of liked what he was saying.Hey, I like the information/sources he shares... I'd rather it was someone nice but unfortunately it isn't!

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[Just Alf]

So SNP leadership defeated and members choose a currency path that was favoured by 14% of Scots in a poll on currency options.

If your mortgage free and have little savings or pension your probably OK, everyone else should be a little more worried now. That's not a scare story, there is a very real chance a new Scottish currency will quickly depreciate against the £ so if you get paid in the new currency but have for example a mortgage in £ then your contracted to pay it back in £, a 10% deprecation of the Scottish currency means your mortgage payments go up 10%. Likewise if your private pension is paid in £ your going to be at the mercy of exchange rates. If you own a business and buy and sell from suppliers in the rest of the UK then again your at the mercy of the foreign exchange market as you will be paid in £ and will need £ to buy your goods but then change it back into the new currency.

Don't pretend a brand new currency in a brand new country is going to be a strong currency, the money markets will sense an opportunity and attack it. It could get very messy.This is an interesting one... On one hand, arguably they're making it more difficult to persuade folks to change to Yes, on the other hand when an election was to happen in a newly independent Scotland if the SNP were to run with that on their ticket the Tories or Labour could run on something completely different and maybe end up gaining power as a result.



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[James310]

This is an interesting one... On one hand, arguably they're making it more difficult to persuade folks to change to Yes, on the other hand when an election was to happen in a newly independent Scotland if the SNP were to run with that on their ticket the Tories or Labour could run on something completely different and maybe end up gaining power as a result.



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It will be a hard sell on the doorsteps that's for sure, to tell people they are losing the pound. I can imagine in any campaign it will be the number one target used against Indy. The capital flight will be significant as well as people and large businesses seek to move sterling dominated assets elsewhere. Significant costs to businesses and financial institutions of setting up new systems and accounting systems etc.

It's a bold choice that's for sure.

[Moulin Yarns]

2014 keep the pound = bad

2021 don't keep the pound = bad

I am confused by the mixed messages coming out from the better together lot

[James310]

2014 keep the pound = bad

2021 don't keep the pound = bad

I am confused by the mixed messages coming out from the better together lot

I don't think they said it was bad in 2014, they just said no it can't be done in the way that was being proposed - a formal currency union.

So your out and about on the campaign trail and someone asks you - What currency will we have, explain it to me...whats these 6 tests I read about, what's that all about...oh and can you tell me if my pension is going to be worth the same in this new currency as it would be in sterling?

[RyeSloan]

I’m pleased the SNP have finally set out some policy on currency.

But I suppose with the vote being 52% to 48% the leadership may well just ignore it an carry on campaigning for the option that lost [emoji6]

No in all seriousness it finally puts an option on the table. It will be interesting to see the arguments for and against the plan.

To some degree I’m pleased they have went with the bold option, I’ve always said if you are going to do Indy then you need to go the whole hog.

That said it also highlights just how many risk factors there is in such a path but at least now the debate might be that bit clearer and that bit more honest.

[matty_f]

There is nothing wrong with 50%+1 . The problem with brexit is the implementation, not the result.


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I don't think that's right. Brexit's implementation has been shambolic but a huge part of the problem is that there was a yes/no decision in which almost as many people voted against as voted for - it's left a huge portion of the country unsatisfied.

Independence would be the same.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't think that's right. Brexit's implementation has been shambolic but a huge part of the problem is that there was a yes/no decision in which almost as many people voted against as voted for - it's left a huge portion of the country unsatisfied.

Independence would be the same.

I kind of agree with this but the reverse where we are part of a state only just over half of us support is equally untenable.

[JeMeSouviens]

2014 keep the pound = bad

2021 don't keep the pound = bad

I am confused by the mixed messages coming out from the better together lot

It’s almost as if the never ending avalanche of **** about how keeping the £ was terrible because it wasn’t really independence was just a load of propaganda its proponent(s) didn’t believe in!

It must be horrendous to have so little integrity you’d spend all that time clogging up a forum with disingenuous rubbish.

[ronaldo7]

There was one poster who was a big fan. Must of liked what he was saying.

I think most independent thinking people could see the job, wings was doing to debunk the unionist media and falsehoods.

I'm glad you liked the links. 😂

[JeMeSouviens]

I’m pleased the SNP have finally set out some policy on currency.

But I suppose with the vote being 52% to 48% the leadership may well just ignore it an carry on campaigning for the option that lost [emoji6]

No in all seriousness it finally puts an option on the table. It will be interesting to see the arguments for and against the plan.

To some degree I’m pleased they have went with the bold option, I’ve always said if you are going to do Indy then you need to go the whole hog.

That said it also highlights just how many risk factors there is in such a path but at least now the debate might be that bit clearer and that bit more honest.

Not really as bold as you think. The amendment left plenty of wriggle room to keep the 6 tests etc.

I actually think that whatever the short term politics, if Brexit really does happen along Tory lines (ie. catastrophically) then the long term points to the euro for us.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't think they said it was bad in 2014, they just said no it can't be done in the way that was being proposed - a formal currency union.

So your out and about on the campaign trail and someone asks you - What currency will we have, explain it to me...whats these 6 tests I read about, what's that all about...oh and can you tell me if my pension is going to be worth the same in this new currency as it would be in sterling?

You are maybe not aware that I'm not a member of the snp

[Mibbes Aye]

I kind of agree with this but the reverse where we are part of a state only just over half of us support is equally untenable.

Not for the majority who voted against separation in a democratic process.

Respecting the sovereign will of the Scottish people I think they call it :wink: :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Not for the majority who voted against separation in a democratic process.

Respecting the sovereign will of the Scottish people I think they call it :wink: :greengrin

But what Matty was talking about was a narrow win for separation in a democratic process.

[Mibbes Aye]

But what Matty was talking about was a narrow win for separation in a democratic process.

I wasn’t quoting Matty, I was quoting you.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wasn’t quoting Matty, I was quoting you.

I’m confused. What I said was a close win either way is equally untenable. Equally was the key word, in case you missed it?

[James310]

You are maybe not aware that I'm not a member of the snp

As an Indy supporter then it's a relevant question, so SNP or Greens will be asked the same questions, unless you disagree with the proposal? Do the greens even have a position on currency?

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m confused. What I said was a close win either way is equally untenable. Equally was the key word, in case you missed it?

I disagree. You said being part of a state just over half of us support is untenable (equally or otherwise).

I think there is some goalpost-shifting going on here.

The Scottish referendum was won by a significantly bigger margin of victory than the EU referendum and given all the rhetoric from the Nat camp about the need to establish and respect the ‘sovereign will of the Scottish people’, one would have thought that maybe that would be translated into genuine respect for a democratic decision.

While I can see some similarities between the issues arising from the referenda, I think there are also significant differences and we need to avoid drawing, to use the phrase du jour, ‘​false equivalence’.

[Ozyhibby]

So SNP leadership defeated and members choose a currency path that was favoured by 14% of Scots in a poll on currency options.

If your mortgage free and have little savings or pension your probably OK, everyone else should be a little more worried now. That's not a scare story, there is a very real chance a new Scottish currency will quickly depreciate against the £ so if you get paid in the new currency but have for example a mortgage in £ then your contracted to pay it back in £, a 10% deprecation of the Scottish currency means your mortgage payments go up 10%. Likewise if your private pension is paid in £ your going to be at the mercy of exchange rates. If you own a business and buy and sell from suppliers in the rest of the UK then again your at the mercy of the foreign exchange market as you will be paid in £ and will need £ to buy your goods but then change it back into the new currency.

Don't pretend a brand new currency in a brand new country is going to be a strong currency, the money markets will sense an opportunity and attack it. It could get very messy.

As the new currency will be an oil currency then it’s unlikely to weaken in the short term.
It’s academic anyway as I’m pretty sure we will be keeping the pound for quite some time after independence. The rUK will welcome welcome us using it as well once the campaign is over.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I disagree. You said being part of a state just over half of us support is untenable (equally or otherwise).

I think there is some goalpost-shifting going on here.

The Scottish referendum was won by a significantly bigger margin of victory than the EU referendum and given all the rhetoric from the Nat camp about the need to establish and respect the ‘sovereign will of the Scottish people’, one would have thought that maybe that would be translated into genuine respect for a democratic decision.

While I can see some similarities between the issues arising from the referenda, I think there are also significant differences and we need to avoid drawing, to use the phrase du jour, ‘​false equivalence’.

Winning indy with 55 or less will create a tough situation in terms of public consent. I’ll take it though and the other side will be totally free to campaign for reunification.

[James310]

It’s almost as if the never ending avalanche of **** about how keeping the £ was terrible because it wasn’t really independence was just a load of propaganda its proponent(s) didn’t believe in!

It must be horrendous to have so little integrity you’d spend all that time clogging up a forum with disingenuous rubbish.

The SNP are making it up as they go along. This is their 3rd attempt at coming up with a currency plan in a short space of time. I am happy with the choice though 😂

Must be horrendous having to reply to that individual EVERY SINGLE TIME. #slightyobsessed

[James310]

I think most independent thinking people could see the job, wings was doing to debunk the unionist media and falsehoods.

I'm glad you liked the links. 😂

This must be the clean version, the abusive version I see was removed by an admin.

[James310]

As the new currency will be an oil currency then it’s unlikely to weaken in the short term.
It’s academic anyway as I’m pretty sure we will be keeping the pound for quite some time after independence. The rUK will welcome welcome us using it as well once the campaign is over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The SNP voted to get rid of the pound as soon as possible today so if they are true to their word then what you suggest is not the case at all.

While we do have the pound though who will be the lender of last resort? The answer is nobody. Let's hope there is no financial crisis.

To add to the confusion Angus McNeil SNP MP says the 6 tests are now dead, while Nicola Sturgeon tweets they are very much alive. Who is lying?

[JeMeSouviens]

The SNP are making it up as they go along. This is their 3rd attempt at coming up with a currency plan in a short space of time. I am happy with the choice though 😂

Must be horrendous having to reply to that individual EVERY SINGLE TIME. #slightyobsessed

Who says I was talking about you? #zerointegrity #ifthecap fits

[DaveF]

The SNP are making it up as they go along. This is their 3rd attempt at coming up with a currency plan in a short space of time. I am happy with the choice though 😂

Must be horrendous having to reply to that individual EVERY SINGLE TIME. #slightyobsessed

I think we all know who is obsessed and it isn't JMS.

[Moulin Yarns]

As an Indy supporter then it's a relevant question, so SNP or Greens will be asked the same questions, unless you disagree with the proposal? Do the greens even have a position on currency?

Why not read their manifesto, I gave you a link to it the other day. I know you didn't bother reading it then and I doubt you will anyway so there is no point answering as you ignored it then as well.

[James310]

Why not read their manifesto, I gave you a link to it the other day. I know you didn't bother reading it then and I doubt you will anyway so there is no point answering as you ignored it then as well.

Apologies you did. I had a look and I must be missing it, well I looked in the obvious places. I saw something about introducing a local currency but that was it.

I did find an article from 2013 saying they supported a separate scottish curreny, so assuming that is the position then the question stands for the Greens as well as that's what was approved today.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-greens-back-scots-currency-1-3128371

Or has it changed since 2013?

[Tornadoes70]

Apologies you did. I had a look and I must be missing it, well I looked in the obvious places. I saw something about introducing a local currency but that was it.

I did find an article from 2013 saying they supported a separate scottish curreny, so assuming that is the position then the question stands for the Greens as well as that's what was approved today.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-greens-back-scots-currency-1-3128371

Or has it changed since 2013?

They (nationalists) are in complete denial over the currency debate. They retreat into Brigadoon fantasia when confronted over serious issues such as what currency they would propose using.

Of course Scots would face cuts to public spending and face hardship if separatism occurred most certainly in the short to medium term with the longer term prospects unpredictable.

Just wish they'd at least be honest with the Scots instead of fudge and Brigadoon type fantasy.

Nationalism is an inward looking self destructive entity.

Mon Labour!!!

[James310]

Still can't work out who is lying. Nicola Sturgeon who says the 6 tests absolutely remain.

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1122169573724303360?s=19

Or Angus MacNeil who says the 6 tests were demolished to the sounds of laughter at the conference.

https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1122208794736508928?s=19

So who is telling the truth? You think they would get their stories right.

Confusion on day 1 of the new currency plan does not bode well for the future. These are the people that are supposed to implement it and they can't even agree what happened at the conference.

[James310]

You're pathetic, it's really tiresome.

I thought the personal abuse was to stop? Anyway which is it, answer the question?

Do you not think its a valid point and on topic?

Channel 4 journalist makes exactly the same point.

https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1122237031260807173?s=19

[Tornadoes70]

You're pathetic, it's really tiresome.

So much trolling. Either make your own points regarding opinion and thoughts on the issues or please refrain from simply disrespecting those who do please.

I don't particularly like James310 but find his arguments compelling and of merit.

Mon Labour!!!

[stoneyburn hibs]

So much trolling. Either make your own points regarding opinion and thoughts on the issues or please refrain from simply disrespecting those who do please.

I don't particularly like James310 but find his arguments compelling and of merit.

Mon Labour!!!

You're seriously digging me up for trolling?

[Moulin Yarns]

You're seriously digging me up for trolling?

It is the ultimate response when trolls run out of ideas, dontchaknow

[James310]

It is the ultimate response when trolls run out of ideas, dontchaknow

So is the fact the FM says one thing and one of her MPs says the complete opposite despite being at the exact same conference only a few hours earlier not a valid point? These people are supposed to implement the policy but they can't agree what actually happened. Or do you want to conveniently ignore it.

I am trying to stick to the points. Play the ball not the man was what we were warned about from the admins.

[JeMeSouviens]

Another full scale Scottish poll today. Panelbase in the Sunday Times. Good but not quite as good as yougov yesterday. Headlines are Y47 N53 on indy, 16 pt lead for SNP on Westminster VI (SNP 38 Con 22, Lab 20 iirc) and a pro-indy majority at Holyrood.

Project Fear needs to seriously up its game :wink:

[makaveli1875]

Another full scale Scottish poll today. Panelbase in the Sunday Times. Good but not quite as good as yougov yesterday. Headlines are Y47 N53 on indy, 16 pt lead for SNP on Westminster VI (SNP 38 Con 22, Lab 20 iirc) and a pro-indy majority at Holyrood.

Project Fear needs to seriously up its game :wink:

Call for the referendum now in that case , no point in Nicola kicking the can down the road any longer

[Moulin Yarns]

This is interesting. Is Hibbyradge interested in standing? 😉

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/millions-of-english-people-would-vote-for-the-snp-if-it-stood-candidates-down-south-poll-finds-10168265.html

I have just noticed the article is 2015

[Fife-Hibee]

So is the fact the FM says one thing and one of her MPs says the complete opposite despite being at the exact same conference only a few hours earlier not a valid point? These people are supposed to implement the policy but they can't agree what actually happened. Or do you want to conveniently ignore it.

I am trying to stick to the points. Play the ball not the man was what we were warned about from the admins.

Your point would be valid if the political party you supported didn't suffer from the same issue, but on even bigger matters. Such as the party leader saying one thing about the EU and his MPs in Scotland saying something different.

[ronaldo7]

Check out @JoshMennie’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/JoshMennie/status/1122511505872891905?s=09

[stoneyburn hibs]

Quoted post deleted. Try again without being insulting

Sore head this morning?

[James310]

Sore head this morning?

Your last few comments have been 'you are pathetic' 'you are a troll' or 'are you drunk?, so maybe have a think about what you post before calling out people for the very things you seem to be doing. How about responding to the points?

What do you think about the fact that the SNP have chosen a currency option that was favoured by 14% of voters in a recent poll? Is that a vote winner?

Or that fact the FM and her MPs seem to have a completely opposite view of what was agreed at the conference, does that worry you?

Or the whole point of this exercise was supposed to be to come up with a 'simple doorstep answer' to the currency question. Well I don't know about you but I think any SNP activist that can sell this successfully to the man/woman on the street will be doing a great job. First question would be what are the 6 tests and how do we achieve them? (If they still exist) Want to give that a go?

All those old questions about mortgages and pensions will remain and have not gone away, if anything they will become even more prominent. Here is another example, so tell me how do I pay my Yorkshire Building Society mortgage, it's £500 a month so will I need to convert Scottish money into £ sterling every month? What will the exchange rate be? Fancy answering that on a doorstep?

The Unionist parties will see this as massive opportunity, a gift even, as the message is very much you will lose the pound.

[danhibees1875]

Your last few comments have been 'you are pathetic' 'you are a troll' or 'are you drunk?, so maybe have a think about what you post before calling out people for the very things you seem to be doing. How about responding to the points?

What do you think about the fact that the SNP have chosen a currency option that was favoured by 14% of voters in a recent poll? Is that a vote winner?

Or that fact the FM and her MPs seem to have a completely opposite view of what was agreed at the conference, does that worry you?

Or the whole point of this exercise was supposed to be to come up with a 'simple doorstep answer' to the currency question. Well I don't know about you but I think any SNP activist that can sell this successfully to the man/woman on the street will be doing a great job. First question would be what are the 6 tests and how do we achieve them? (If they still exist) Want to give that a go?

All those old questions about mortgages and pensions will remain and have not gone away, if anything they will become even more prominent. Here is another example, so tell me how do I pay my Yorkshire Building Society mortgage, it's £500 a month so will I need to convert Scottish money into £ sterling every month? What will the exchange rate be? Fancy answering that on a doorstep?

The Unionist parties will see this as massive opportunity, a gift even, as the message is very much you will lose the pound.

Maybe I'm missing something on the mortgage front, but presumably this would just be translated to Scottish pounds at day 1 and then you'd pay back accordingly.

So, if you have £100k left on your mortgage it will transfer to S£100k - assuming the new currency starts at a 1:1 ratio with GBP.

You'll then continue to pay 500/ a month, S£ rather than GBP, and GBP value of that will diverge - one way or another - over time as it establishes itself as a currency along with wages and prices in the shops.

That's just my guess. I suppose the actual answer is whatever happened to all the European mortgages in countries that switched to Euro. That might be a better place to look for an answer.

Your lender could also refuse to allow that if they wanted, and you'd have to translate your S£ to GBP every month until you remortgage to a lender that does lend in S£.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Your last few comments have been 'you are pathetic' 'you are a troll' or 'are you drunk?, so maybe have a think about what you post before calling out people for the very things you seem to be doing. How about responding to the points?

What do you think about the fact that the SNP have chosen a currency option that was favoured by 14% of voters in a recent poll? Is that a vote winner?

Or that fact the FM and her MPs seem to have a completely opposite view of what was agreed at the conference, does that worry you?

Or the whole point of this exercise was supposed to be to come up with a 'simple doorstep answer' to the currency question. Well I don't know about you but I think any SNP activist that can sell this successfully to the man/woman on the street will be doing a great job. First question would be what are the 6 tests and how do we achieve them? (If they still exist) Want to give that a go?

All those old questions about mortgages and pensions will remain and have not gone away, if anything they will become even more prominent. Here is another example, so tell me how do I pay my Yorkshire Building Society mortgage, it's £500 a month so will I need to convert Scottish money into £ sterling every month? What will the exchange rate be? Fancy answering that on a doorstep?

The Unionist parties will see this as massive opportunity, a gift even, as the message is very much you will lose the pound.

Ok, personally I'm not hung up on the currency policy/issue.
Different viewpoints within a party are healthy I would have thought.

Most people's minds will already have been made up regarding independence, and yes getting the vote of the undecided will be the big test.

As for the 6 tests, I don't know enough to pass comment.

[James310]

Maybe I'm missing something on the mortgage front, but presumably this would just be translated to Scottish pounds at day 1 and then you'd pay back accordingly.

So, if you have £100k left on your mortgage it will transfer to S£100k - assuming the new currency starts at a 1:1 ratio with GBP.

You'll then continue to pay 500/ a month, S£ rather than GBP, and GBP value of that will diverge - one way or another - over time as it establishes itself as a currency along with wages and prices in the shops.

That's just my guess. I suppose the actual answer is whatever happened to all the European mortgages in countries that switched to Euro. That might be a better place to look for an answer.

Your lender could also refuse to allow that if they wanted, and you'd have to translate your S£ to GBP every month until you remortgage to a lender that does lend in S£.

I appreciate the reply, but do you reckon that's an easy thing to explain to the average person? On a doorstep in a few minutes?

Well what might happen is all your money, your debts, savings and pensions etc will be converted to this brand new currency, we are not really sure how it will work at the moment. Or maybe your lender will say you still need to pay them back in £s as that's your contract with them so yes you will need to change money every month to pay it, but you can switch your mortgage to another provider, oh your on a 5 year fixed rate well just wait then. Will you pay more or less? Well I can't really tell you that at the moment it depends on the exchange rate but that can change every day.

I appreciate I am looking at worst case but these are all the things that will matter to people. It's early days but all these things will need to be considered. Will the Scottish Government really change the law for example and convert all sterling into a new brand currency with zero track record, imagine the capital flight if that was the case. Financial Institutions would be moving their money out of Scotland ASAP.

It will be complex and difficult to explain, the exact thing I thought the SNP were trying to avoid.

[Moulin Yarns]

I appreciate the reply, but do you reckon that's an easy thing to explain to the average person? On a doorstep in a few minutes?

Well what might happen is all your money, your debts, savings and pensions etc will be converted to this brand new currency, we are not really sure how it will work at the moment. Or maybe your lender will say you still need to pay them back in £s as that's your contract with them so yes you will need to change money every month to pay it, but you can switch your mortgage to another provider, oh your on a 5 year fixed rate well just wait then. Will you pay more or less? Well I can't really tell you that at the moment it depends on the exchange rate but that can change every day.

I appreciate I am looking at worst case but these are all the things that will matter to people. It's early days but all these things will need to be considered. Will the Scottish Government really change the law for example and convert all sterling into a new brand currency with zero track record, imagine the capital flight if that was the case. Financial Institutions would be moving their money out of Scotland ASAP.

It will be complex and difficult to explain, the exact thing I thought the SNP were trying to avoid.

I think you are maybe over complicating the idea that everything needs to be transaction in a different currency. I'm no banking expert but I have accounts with santander but none of charges or interest is in euros. If you have a mortgage with Yorkshire bank and the bank you use is in Scotland then you will bank in S£ rather than a Yorkshire £. On day 1 of the new currency there will be a calculation of the amount and value and you will then do your banking and pay the mortgage in the new currency.

Does that make sense? You wouldn't have to constantly be changing currency except when you go abroad, as you do now.

[Smartie]

I appreciate the reply, but do you reckon that's an easy thing to explain to the average person? On a doorstep in a few minutes?

Well what might happen is all your money, your debts, savings and pensions etc will be converted to this brand new currency, we are not really sure how it will work at the moment. Or maybe your lender will say you still need to pay them back in £s as that's your contract with them so yes you will need to change money every month to pay it, but you can switch your mortgage to another provider, oh your on a 5 year fixed rate well just wait then. Will you pay more or less? Well I can't really tell you that at the moment it depends on the exchange rate but that can change every day.

I appreciate I am looking at worst case but these are all the things that will matter to people. It's early days but all these things will need to be considered. Will the Scottish Government really change the law for example and convert all sterling into a new brand currency with zero track record, imagine the capital flight if that was the case. Financial Institutions would be moving their money out of Scotland ASAP.

It will be complex and difficult to explain, the exact thing I thought the SNP were trying to avoid.

The currency one is a nice issue for Unionists. It is an argument that, fair play to them, they have a stranglehold over and that presents serious difficulties for the independence movement irrespective of which option on currency they go for.

In the previous referendum there was a relatively stable alternative to independence, but post-Brexit Britain no longer offers that "strong and stable" alternative.

There are tough times ahead whichever way we look at it. There aren't going to be as many of your lovely British pounds to go round over the next decade. Pensions are going to take a hit, mortgages are going to be less affordable under the status quo, people face at best uncertainty, and at worst a significant downturn in the quality of their lives.

The risks of this "new currency" become more bearable when considered as a means to an end towards what could/ should be a better place, even if we don't have the answers to your questions.

[James310]

I think you are maybe over complicating the idea that everything needs to be transaction in a different currency. I'm no banking expert but I have accounts with santander but none of charges or interest is in euros. If you have a mortgage with Yorkshire bank and the bank you use is in Scotland then you will bank in S£ rather than a Yorkshire £. On day 1 of the new currency there will be a calculation of the amount and value and you will then do your banking and pay the mortgage in the new currency.

Does that make sense? You wouldn't have to constantly be changing currency except when you go abroad, as you do now.

But Yorkshire Bank will very likely want paid in £ sterling, that's on their balance sheet and what they have done all their forecasts on and what you have contracted with them on, on the basis you pay them £X sterling every month. I can't imagine they will be super keen to change that. They might, I don't know but would suggest it's unlikely as why would they? A new Scot currency could be worth much less if it depreciates, they would rather have £500 sterling a month than some unknown future amount. Who knows what a new Scottish pound would be worth compared to £ sterling.

Not just mortgages, if you pay your gas and electricity bills to a company based in England then do you need to convert, will they send you a bill still in £ sterling which will remain their primary currency or will they be happy to do some kind of exchange rate calculation for you and send you another bill, again £100 to them is always £100 but new Scottish Currency £100 could only be worth £80 sterling.

It's complicated and yes it's early days. It's not a policy I think will be easy to sell and for people to get their head around. It was the preferred option of only 14% in the recent YouGov poll.

[danhibees1875]

I appreciate the reply, but do you reckon that's an easy thing to explain to the average person? On a doorstep in a few minutes?

Well what might happen is all your money, your debts, savings and pensions etc will be converted to this brand new currency, we are not really sure how it will work at the moment. Or maybe your lender will say you still need to pay them back in £s as that's your contract with them so yes you will need to change money every month to pay it, but you can switch your mortgage to another provider, oh your on a 5 year fixed rate well just wait then. Will you pay more or less? Well I can't really tell you that at the moment it depends on the exchange rate but that can change every day.

I appreciate I am looking at worst case but these are all the things that will matter to people. It's early days but all these things will need to be considered. Will the Scottish Government really change the law for example and convert all sterling into a new brand currency with zero track record, imagine the capital flight if that was the case. Financial Institutions would be moving their money out of Scotland ASAP.

It will be complex and difficult to explain, the exact thing I thought the SNP were trying to avoid.

I think the basics could be explained very quickly. Any more than that and it gets too complicated/I wouldn't expect to have someone lay it out to me on my doorstep.

But as you've noted there are enough variables with if your lender would let you swap currency (not sure they'd want the risk, but they would want your business - could go either way) and the relative strength of the new currency will fluctuate, but that's not too dissimilar to the risks you already take.

On second thought, I don't think my euro analogy works as it was probably a lot simpler as the whole institution changed to Euro as well as mortgages/savings. That wouldn't be the case for the average lender to a Scottish mortgage holder.

[James310]

I think the basics could be explained very quickly.

Have we not proved that not to be the case?

Also I don't take any currency exchange risk today paying my mortgage or my bills. Not sure what you mean by that.

[Moulin Yarns]

But Yorkshire Bank will very likely want paid in £ sterling, that's on their balance sheet and what they have done all their forecasts on and what you have contracted with them on, on the basis you pay them £X sterling every month. I can't imagine they will be super keen to change that. They might, I don't know but would suggest it's unlikely as why would they? A new Scot currency could be worth much less if it depreciates, they would rather have £500 sterling a month than some unknown future amount. Who knows what a new Scottish pound would be worth compared to £ sterling.

Not just mortgages, if you pay your gas and electricity bills to a company based in England then do you need to convert, will they send you a bill still in £ sterling which will remain their primary currency or will they be happy to do some kind of exchange rate calculation for you and send you another bill, again £100 to them is always £100 but new Scottish Currency £100 could only be worth £80 sterling.

It's complicated and yes it's early days. It's not a policy I think will be easy to sell and for people to get their head around. It was the preferred option of only 14% in the recent YouGov poll.

Yorkshire Bank is a subsidiary of clydesdale Bank and has no branches in Scotland. I'm thinking that if you have a mortgage with Yorkshire on a property in Scotland you may find that your mortgage may be transferred to clydesdale.

Utility bills are paid in the local currency even if the utility company is EDF for example.

[Just Alf]

How big an issue is the banking thing?

I've got a santander loan, I don't pay it in euros. Fair do's I took it out in £'s I suppose.

But it does show that banks work across currency boundaries, what would be different in an iScotland that would make banks decide to not operate as they currently do around the world?




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[James310]

Yorkshire Bank is a subsidiary of clydesdale Bank and has no branches in Scotland. I'm thinking that if you have a mortgage with Yorkshire on a property in Scotland you may find that your mortgage may be transferred to clydesdale.

Utility bills are paid in the local currency even if the utility company is EDF for example.

Well my original example was Yorkshire Building Society who are wholly based in England. Even using Yorkshire Bank your basically dictating a private companies strategy there, what if Clydesdale Bank (which will be phased out and replaced with the Virgin Money brand, headquarters in Newcastle) still want paid in £ sterling, that's what you contracted with them on.

How do you know EDF will issue bills in a new currency and accept it as payment? Is that an assumption or something you have evidence of?

[Moulin Yarns]

How big an issue is the banking thing?

I've got a santander loan, I don't pay it in euros. Fair do's I took it out in £'s I suppose.

But it does show that banks work across currency boundaries, what would be different in an iScotland that would make banks decide to not operate as they currently do around the world?




Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Succinctly put. That's what I was trying to explain

[James310]

How big an issue is the banking thing?

I've got a santander loan, I don't pay it in euros. Fair do's I took it out in £'s I suppose.

But it does show that banks work across currency boundaries, what would be different in an iScotland that would make banks decide to not operate as they currently do around the world?




Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

You are now potentially having to exchange your new Scottish money that you may get paid in (maybe not if your employer is based in England but that's another story) so you now carry that exchange rate risk, which you have never had to worry about before unless you regularly have bills or payments to make in other currencies.

[James310]

Succinctly put. That's what I was trying to explain

Do you not think if it was that simple this option would have been picked years ago? Or even at the last IndyRef?

[Moulin Yarns]

Well my original example was Yorkshire Building Society who are wholly based in England. Even using Yorkshire Bank your basically decitating a private companies strategy there, what if Clydesdale Bank (which will be phased out and replaced with the Virgin Money brand, headquarters in Newcastle) still want paid in £ sterling, that's what you contracted with them on.

How do you know EDF will issue bills in a new currency and accept it as payment? Is that an assumption or something you have evidence of?

EDF currently issue bills in £, not too complicated for a French company. As someone else said earlier the introduction of the Euro didn't complicate things across Europe.

Banking is a universal business, HSBC, a bank on the High Street but a global Bank. Do they only deal in HK$? Of course not, they work with all currencies, why should others be any different?

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you not think if it was that simple this option would have been picked years ago? Or even at the last IndyRef?

Not sure what your point is. The currency issue in 2014 was not having a separate currency, now we have an issue because the plan is for a new currency.

[James310]

EDF currently issue bills in £, not too complicated for a French company. As someone else said earlier the introduction of the Euro didn't complicate things across Europe.

Banking is a universal business, HSBC, a bank on the High Street but a global Bank. Do they only deal in HK$? Of course not, they work with all currencies, why should others be any different?

OK, I am not getting through to you. Let's leave it there. I hope it's all as simple as you believe it to be so.

[Moulin Yarns]

OK, I am not getting through to you. Let's leave it there. I hope it's all as simple as you believe it to be so.

Funny enough, I was just thinking the same, that you were not understanding how the global banking industry works.

[Ozyhibby]

But Yorkshire Bank will very likely want paid in £ sterling, that's on their balance sheet and what they have done all their forecasts on and what you have contracted with them on, on the basis you pay them £X sterling every month. I can't imagine they will be super keen to change that. They might, I don't know but would suggest it's unlikely as why would they? A new Scot currency could be worth much less if it depreciates, they would rather have £500 sterling a month than some unknown future amount. Who knows what a new Scottish pound would be worth compared to £ sterling.

Not just mortgages, if you pay your gas and electricity bills to a company based in England then do you need to convert, will they send you a bill still in £ sterling which will remain their primary currency or will they be happy to do some kind of exchange rate calculation for you and send you another bill, again £100 to them is always £100 but new Scottish Currency £100 could only be worth £80 sterling.

It's complicated and yes it's early days. It's not a policy I think will be easy to sell and for people to get their head around. It was the preferred option of only 14% in the recent YouGov poll.

Almost certainly a new Scottish currency would be pegged to the pound until there was full trust in the new currency.
The basic fact is we are no less (or more) able to run our own currency than any other country.
Your right it’s not an easy sell but your wrong to overplay on people’s fears.
The new Scottish govts number one job throughout the transition will be economic stability. There will be plenty of financial institution who wish the deal in the new currency (they won’t say so during the campaign though).
The currency issue is actually not that important once independence is achieved but is important during the campaign because of the potential for misrepresentation by the unionists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Funny enough, I was just thinking the same, that you were not understanding how the global banking industry works.

And you do?

I am trying to be civil but you can't help have a dig.

We will see who is right or wrong in good time.

[Ozyhibby]

Well my original example was Yorkshire Building Society who are wholly based in England. Even using Yorkshire Bank your basically dictating a private companies strategy there, what if Clydesdale Bank (which will be phased out and replaced with the Virgin Money brand, headquarters in Newcastle) still want paid in £ sterling, that's what you contracted with them on.

How do you know EDF will issue bills in a new currency and accept it as payment? Is that an assumption or something you have evidence of?

If the new Scottish pound is pegged to sterling then what’s the problem?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Well my original example was Yorkshire Building Society who are wholly based in England. Even using Yorkshire Bank your basically dictating a private companies strategy there, what if Clydesdale Bank (which will be phased out and replaced with the Virgin Money brand, headquarters in Newcastle) still want paid in £ sterling, that's what you contracted with them on.

How do you know EDF will issue bills in a new currency and accept it as payment? Is that an assumption or something you have evidence of?

Of course your Yorkshire Bank will also disappear under the virgin brand but you won't have to exchange your £ for virgin, unless you want to of course 😉

[James310]

If the new Scottish pound is pegged to sterling then what’s the problem?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is that what was agreed at the weekend?

[CapitalGreen]

If all these British banks don't offer/convert their products in a Scottish currency that will leave a massive opportunity to any financial institutions that do.

Imagine that, 5 million potential customers all looking for someone who will offer savings and mortgages in the new Scottish Currency. Do people really think businesses in the highly competitive banking industry will not want to service these customers needs?

[Moulin Yarns]

If all these British banks don't offer/convert their products in a Scottish currency that will leave a massive opportunity to any financial institutions that do.

Imagine that, 5 million potential customers all looking for someone who will offer savings and mortgages in the new Scottish Currency. Do people really think businesses in the highly competitive banking industry will not want to service these customers needs?

Obviously some people don't want to believe that.

[James310]

Obviously some people don't want to believe that.

Your in for a shock. Maybe I don't explain it the best, but more intelligent people will soon pounce on this and it will be a big problem for Independence movement. Remember it was the choice of 14% in a poll, there is a reason for that.

[Ozyhibby]

Is that what was agreed at the weekend?

Yes


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[Ozyhibby]

If all these British banks don't offer/convert their products in a Scottish currency that will leave a massive opportunity to any financial institutions that do.

Imagine that, 5 million potential customers all looking for someone who will offer savings and mortgages in the new Scottish Currency. Do people really think businesses in the highly competitive banking industry will not want to service these customers needs?

As the new currency is what Brent crude will be sold in then it is fair to say that financial institutions will want to hold it.


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[James310]

Yes


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You 100% sure about this? Can you point me to the evidence of this. Let's be clear, you are saying the new Scottish Currency when launched will be pegged to the pound indefinitely?

[Just Alf]

Is that what was agreed at the weekend?This link to the BBC has some of the info.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48069470

In essence the SNP leadership were defeated in only one of 4 currency related amendments...

Paraphrasing....

Old wording... Currency to be introduced by end of 1st independent parliamentary term.

New wording... Currency to be introduced as soon as practicable.

Point to note, this is the SNP plan, in the actual event they'd have to get it passed in parliament so would need to be the ones in charge and able to command a majority. Greens, Labour, Tories will all have an input to a greater or lesser degree (unless one of them gains power and its their plan being negotiated through)






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[James310]

As the new currency is what Brent crude will be sold in then it is fair to say that financial institutions will want to hold it.


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You know this how? Or is it an assumption or guess.

I know you think this, but you can't prove this as we stand today.

[Just Alf]

You 100% sure about this? Can you point me to the evidence of this. Let's be clear, you are saying the new Scottish Currency when launched will be pegged to the pound indefinitely?Last paragraph of my previous reply answers that in a way, it would be dependent on the government of the day deeming what was best for the country.



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[Moulin Yarns]

As the new currency is what Brent crude will be sold in then it is fair to say that financial institutions will want to hold it.


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Are sure about Brent crude? As far as I know the oil market is trading in US dollars, yes even in the UK, makes you wonder how the banks can cope 😉

[James310]

I realise I am fighting a losing battle here, that's fine. I am quietly confident when the real experts get their hands on this and explain it better than I can it will all become clear. I know it's not as simple as you are making out though. Have a nice day, even you Moulin Yarns.

[Moulin Yarns]

I realise I am fighting a losing battle here, that's fine. I am quietly confident when the real experts get their hands on this and explain it better than I can it will all become clear. Have a nice day, even you Moulin Yarns.

The sun is out and I'm away out to do some gardening.

[JeMeSouviens]

This link to the BBC has some of the info.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48069470

In essence the SNP leadership were defeated in only one of 4 currency related amendments...

Paraphrasing....

Old wording... Currency to be introduced by end of 1st independent parliamentary term.

New wording... Currency to be introduced as soon as practicable.

Point to note, this is the SNP plan, in the actual event they'd have to get it passed in parliament so would need to be the ones in charge and able to command a majority. Greens, Labour, Tories will all have an input to a greater or lesser degree (unless one of them gains power and its their plan being negotiated through)


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Correction - old wording was decision to be taken on introduction at end of 1st term. You could argue the new wording is even more flexible.

[Just Alf]

Correction - old wording was decision to be taken on introduction at end of 1st term. You could argue the new wording is even more flexible.Ta.. Funnily enough "the more flexible" point was my initial thought, with all the stuff being said I thought I'd got myself mixed up!



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[JeMeSouviens]

Last paragraph of my previous reply answers that in a way, it would be dependent on the government of the day deeming what was best for the country.



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Post introduction of new currency, the new central bank would have a big role to play regarding decisions about a peg. Depending on Brexit and the resulting strength or lack thereof of £, it might not make sense anyway.

[danhibees1875]

Have we not proved that not to be the case?

Also I don't take any currency exchange risk today paying my mortgage or my bills. Not sure what you mean by that.

I guess it depends on "explain" and how detailed you'd want to go and how much of it was just opinion. I think the average campaigner for either side on a doorstep could note that the lender would have a choice - playing up either them not wanting to take on the currency risk or them not wanting to lose your business depending on their stance. Then explaining that outcome.

It wouldn't be a complete answer, and no one could talk in facts so it wouldn't be the most convincing argument either if you were trying to persuade someone from the opposite viewpoint. But I don't think it would be impossible for a campaigner to talk around (which I think was the initial question you asked).

I'm not sure why I said that about currency risk - I wasn't meaning an exchange risk by paying in a different currency. Of course if what ended up happening was you were forced to continue paying in GBP and translating your S£ each month then you'd be taking on extra currency risk. I was meaning more broadly that a different currency will diverge from GBP/others in the same way as GBP currently diverges from others.

[James310]

Of course if what ended up happening was you were forced to continue paying in GBP and translating your S£ each month then you'd be taking on extra currency risk. I was meaning more broadly that a different currency will diverge from GBP/others in the same way as GBP currently diverges from others.

According to some on here this will never happen as Banks will sort it all out and all companies will be happy for you to break the contract you have with them and be paid in a new currency. All risk free for you as an individual and the company will take on that risk. We will see.

I will of course be quizzing any activist that comes to my door in great detail about this!

[Ozyhibby]

Post introduction of new currency, the new central bank would have a big role to play regarding decisions about a peg. Depending on Brexit and the resulting strength or lack thereof of £, it might not make sense anyway.

There will be a peg for a good few years I would think to allow the majority of contracts for borrowing on mortgages etc to be converted to Scottish pounds.


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[James310]

There will be a peg for a good few years I would think to allow the majority of contracts for borrowing on mortgages etc to be converted to Scottish pounds.


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What if the lenders say no? Would the Scottish Government legislate for it to happen? If so do you think all the financial assets in Scotland will remain in Scotland or will all the big institutions like insurance companies move all their assets down south?

Whats the estimated sterling reserves we need to peg to the £, where will this come from?

[Fife-Hibee]

I realise I am fighting a losing battle here, that's fine. I am quietly confident when the real experts get their hands on this and explain it better than I can it will all become clear. I know it's not as simple as you are making out though. Have a nice day, even you Moulin Yarns.

So just to ensure that I have this right. You're making an argument that you don't understand and you're hoping somebody with a better understanding of the argument you're making will come to the rescue?

[James310]

So just to ensure that I have this right. You're making an argument that you don't understand and you're hoping somebody with a better understanding of the argument you're making will come to the rescue?

No, I am maybe not getting my point across in the most succinct way, or maybe it's not me and people are over simplifying this.

[RyeSloan]

There will be a peg for a good few years I would think to allow the majority of contracts for borrowing on mortgages etc to be converted to Scottish pounds.


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You can’t just peg a currency because you want to.

Those of us old enough to remember Black Wednesday can attest to that.

[Ozyhibby]

You can’t just peg a currency because you want to.

Those of us old enough to remember Black Wednesday can attest to that.

You can so long as the underlying economy is in sync. Black Wednesday happened because we tried to peg sterling too high. Our economy is pretty in sync with the rest of the uk so starts from a good place.
The ERM continued without us and everyone else managed to stay in.



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[Moulin Yarns]

What if the lenders say no? Would the Scottish Government legislate for it to happen? If so do you think all the financial assets in Scotland will remain in Scotland or will all the big institutions like insurance companies move all their assets down south?

Whats the estimated sterling reserves we need to peg to the £, where will this come from?

If the lender says no then you can move to one that says yes, but remember your lender of choice is a subsidiary of a Scottish Bank so they are not going to say no. 😉

[Ozyhibby]

What if the lenders say no? Would the Scottish Government legislate for it to happen? If so do you think all the financial assets in Scotland will remain in Scotland or will all the big institutions like insurance companies move all their assets down south?

Whats the estimated sterling reserves we need to peg to the £, where will this come from?

What if lenders say no to what?
If the govt pegs for ten years, how many people will have naturally changed their mortgage in that time? Or bought new houses etc. All those contracts would be in the new currency. If they peg for 20 years that probably gets 90% of mortgages in the new currency.
Lenders will lend because they can make money. They won’t care what currency they make it in.
We have significant reserves in the Bank of England just now which we own 10% of.


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[James310]

If the lender says no then you can move to one that says yes, but remember your lender of choice is a subsidiary of a Scottish Bank so they are not going to say no. 😉

Yorkshire Building Society is not subsidiary of a Scottish Bank.

Yorkshire Bank is part of Clydesdale Banking Group, registered office for the Group is in Leeds.

[RyeSloan]

What if lenders say no to what?
If the govt pegs for ten years, how many people will have naturally changed their mortgage in that time? Or bought new houses etc. All those contracts would be in the new currency. If they peg for 20 years that probably gets 90% of mortgages in the new currency.
Lenders will lend because they can make money. They won’t care what currency they make it in.
We have significant reserves in the Bank of England just now which we own 10% of.


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Of course banks care what currency they lend in. It needs to be matched to their deposit, wholesale and equity currencies. Hence why the previously cited HSBC operates in the UK through a separate subsidiary that is capitalised in sterling.

Pegging currencies involves a combination of alignment to the other currencies fiscal and monetary policies, ability to implement capital controls or substantial reserves in the other currency which are used to ‘defend’ your peg or a currency board like HK.

Suggesting the SG can just simply decide to peg to sterling for 10 or 20 years depending simply on what suits it at the time is well wide of the mark.

The general notion that a new S£ is pretty ‘simple’ and will just be pegged until it’s all fine and dandy to float on its own is vastly underestimating the complexity that a new S£ would face. It also greatly under plays the risk to assets and capital currently denominated in £.

That’s not to say it couldn’t be done or indeed shouldn’t be done but let’s not pretend it’s anything but a hugely complex proposal that will present substantial challenge.

[James310]

Here is a paper I wrote earlier....��


"The Growth Commission’s proposals are not nearly as pragmatic as it thinks. And a new currency, particularly if Scotland attempts to peg its value against the pound, has many of the same painful consequences as the Growth Commission plan. Neither can escape the implications of Scotland’s balance of payments position.

The SNP wants people to believe that Scotland’s own currency will happen after a “business as usual” transition period of continued use of the pound, otherwise known as sterlingisation. Sterlingisation is emphatically not “business as usual”. It places Scotland beyond the supervisory reach of the Bank of England, with limited access to sterling reserves – an unstable and ultimately untenable arrangement.

Scotland could embark on independence with its own currency, but a 1-1 peg against the pound would be very short lived – insufficient foreign exchange reserves would leave the new currency at the mercy of international capital markets. Scotland could not defend its value.

In both cases the endgame is the same: Scotland has a new currency which is worth less than sterling, and ordinary households pay the price. Imports and mortgages are more expensive, wages and state pensions are less valuable. The Government is saddled with an Annual Solidarity Payment denominated in pounds sterling. More competitive exports is scant consolation.

Anyone lucky enough to be mortgage-free and with significant assets denominated in pounds sterling (such as a private pension) would be quite comfortable. But the average homeowner, or the pensioner reliant on a state pension, would be very badly hurt.

This is a point worth remembering the next time someone tells you that Scottish independence is about achieving social justice. An independent Scotland is certainly possible – but it would come at an immense cost."

Link to the full paper below if anyone wants to read it. It was written by a chap called Sam Taylor.

"Sam earned a degree in mathematics before embarking on a 17 year career in the fund management industry, managing global equity portfolios. After beginning his working life in London, he also had stints in Melbourne, Australia, and New York.

An interest in the politics and economics of the United Kingdom led Sam to join These Islands ahead of its launch. He brings deep experience in many of the topics that are critical to the debates around the future of these islands: financial markets, the financial services industry, infrastructure, and energy markets"

http://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i330/choose_your_poison_the_snps_currency_headache.aspx

[Smartie]

Out of interest, what actually happened in Czechoslovakia re currency after they consciously uncoupled?

[James310]

Those that are saying it will all be fine and no problem, do you remember what the Brexiteers said before Brexit? Don't worry, it will easy. It's simple really, we will get what we want.

How is that working out for them?

Ignore the warnings if you like, but it's complex and not a trivial matter.

[Hiber-nation]

Out of interest, what actually happened in Czechoslovakia re currency after they consciously uncoupled?

They had separate Czech and Slovak Korunas. Not sure how it was decided. Czech Rep still have it, Slovakia has been using the Euro for a few years now.

[Mibbes Aye]

Out of interest, what actually happened in Czechoslovakia re currency after they consciously uncoupled?

When the Czech Republic joined the EU they signed up to joining the Euro, but progress hasn’t been swift. Ceska is a curious country, very intellectual but nationalistic too. My experience is that they straddle both being small c conservative and being very outward looking - I think the population polls quite strongly against the Euro but in the big towns and cities and even rurally, many people speak English very well and understand idioms etc. They want to be in ‘Europe’ and don’t.

The Czech koruna is thirty to the pound or thereabouts, which can be fiddly when paying for stuff. Interestingly, a lot of day-to-day trade is asked for in Euros. I go to Prague a few times each year, and more frequently beyond. My regular transfer driver to and from the airport isn’t interested in koruna, he wants euros

[Moulin Yarns]

Yorkshire Building Society is not subsidiary of a Scottish Bank.

Yorkshire Bank is part of Clydesdale Banking Group, registered office for the Group is in Leeds.

Sorry, my mistake. YBS is trading in Scotland, so why would they refuse to use the local currency. It's the same as santander accounts being in sterling and not euros and French energy company EDF billing UK customers in sterling and not euro. Your mortgage will probably be converted to the Scottish currency unless you ask them not to.

[ronaldo7]

Out of interest, what actually happened in Czechoslovakia re currency after they consciously uncoupled?

The time taken for some newly independent countries to set up a new currency.

Slovakia, Koruna, 5 weeks
Slovenia, tolar, 3 and a half months,
Estonia, kroon, 10 months
Moldova, leu, 28 months.
Ukraine, hryvnia, 60 months.

Some have now moved on to use the euro, proving it can be done.

We just couldn't do it though. We're not good enough.😌

[Mibbes Aye]

The time taken for some newly independent countries to set up a new currency.

Slovakia, Koruna, 5 weeks
Slovenia, tolar, 3 and a half months,
Estonia, kroon, 10 months
Moldova, leu, 28 months.
Ukraine, hryvnia, 60 months.

Some have now moved on to use the euro, proving it can be done.

We just couldn't do it though. We're not good enough.😌

This is what lets you down.

You make a very valid, if unsubstantiated, point.

And then you throw in the last line, with the Scottish cringe and the “we aren’t good enough” bit, with the hint of “who says we can’t be good enough?”

Which leads us into the grievance and bitterness trope that seems to be the only thing the Nats can go back to.

It isn’t exactly subtle and it begs the question why you don’t just leave it at making the point, rather than undermining it by doing the victim shtick?

[RyeSloan]

This is what lets you down.

You make a very valid, if unsubstantiated, point.

And then you throw in the last line, with the Scottish cringe and the “we aren’t good enough” bit, with the hint of “who says we can’t be good enough?”

Which leads us into the grievance and bitterness trope that seems to be the only thing the Nats can go back to.

It isn’t exactly subtle and it begs the question why you don’t just leave it at making the point, rather than undermining it by doing the victim shtick?

Unsubstantiated indeed.

A rather exciting report from the IMF on the trials and tribulations Estonia faced when setting up its currency

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2002/wp0296.pdf

A process that involved a fiscal squeeze of near 5% of GDP.

So as already suggested it is of course more than possible to launch a new currency but the specific demands vary wildly by country and few are without substantial risk...and that’s normally while leaving behind the likes of the ruble.

I said earlier that I hoped the SNP’s position might lead to a bit more honesty in the debate on the challenges that might face. Looks like I might be waiting a wee bit longer for that to happen...

[James310]

The time taken for some newly independent countries to set up a new currency.

Slovakia, Koruna, 5 weeks
Slovenia, tolar, 3 and a half months,
Estonia, kroon, 10 months
Moldova, leu, 28 months.
Ukraine, hryvnia, 60 months.

Some have now moved on to use the euro, proving it can be done.

We just couldn't do it though. We're not good enough.😌

Other than the physical act of setting up a currency do any of those countries share the same or similar economic and political characteristics of Scotland, and importantly did they have broadly similar plans as to what was approved at the SNP conference at the weekend? Or did they just set up a currency so that's the only valid comparison.

[Just Alf]

Unsubstantiated indeed.

A rather exciting report from the IMF on the trials and tribulations Estonia faced when setting up its currency

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2002/wp0296.pdf

A process that involved a fiscal squeeze of near 5% of GDP.

So as already suggested it is of course more than possible to launch a new currency but the specific demands vary wildly by country and few are without substantial risk...and that’s normally while leaving behind the likes of the ruble.

I said earlier that I hoped the SNP’s position might lead to a bit more honesty in the debate on the challenges that might face. Looks like I might be waiting a wee bit longer for that to happen...Estonia isn't a good example though, their economy was also transitioning from a communistic one to a free market and were also caught up in the Russian market liberalisation that drove high inflation across the region.

The question is, I guess is, what in particular is it that would make iScotland perform worse than anybody else? Why would they not just be "average", in fact why not above average?

As an aside Estonia's GDP for Jan 2019 is reported at 2.2%..., that's just a single data point so not a 'trend', It's been running around an average of 1% the past 5 years.


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[Just Alf]

Other than the physical act of setting up a currency do any of those countries share the same or similar economic and political characteristics of Scotland, and importantly did they have broadly similar plans as to what was approved at the SNP conference at the weekend? Or did they just set up a currency so that's the only valid comparison.R7 was trying to show that countries have gone through a similar process, so it's perfectly possible to do it.

Your discussion seems to be coming from a position that it would be a disaster in Scotland... It's a valid point, but what makes you think that?

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[ronaldo7]

This is what lets you down.

You make a very valid, if unsubstantiated, point.

And then you throw in the last line, with the Scottish cringe and the “we aren’t good enough” bit, with the hint of “who says we can’t be good enough?”

Which leads us into the grievance and bitterness trope that seems to be the only thing the Nats can go back to.

It isn’t exactly subtle and it begs the question why you don’t just leave it at making the point, rather than undermining it by doing the victim shtick?

I've seen enough on this thread regarding "the cringe", to last a lifetime. The point I make stands. New Independent countries move forward, and make the changes necessary for them. Some even join the euro, after a short while.

We've had, the Snp hate the English, peppered with, it'll be too difficult, divisive, and we'll be like Greece without the sun.

Time to reflect on, what we currently have, you know, that strong and stable governance from London.

I'm all for getting in the lifeboat.

[James310]

R7 was trying to show that countries have gone through a similar process, so it's perfectly possible to do it.

Your discussion seems to be coming from a position that it would be a disaster in Scotland... It's a valid point, but what makes you think that?

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And I was querying what the similarities with these countries were with Scotland, other than the obvious physical act of setting up a currency. If we are comparing the fact these countries set up a new currency as well then it seems like a fair challenge?

The narrative around the currency debate seems to be it will be a fairly simple and pain free process, while I believe it will be the opposite and it will in fact be exceptionally complex to implement. At the same time I believe it will be painful and dangerous to the Scottish Economy. One example is no longer having a lender of the last resort, so in the event of a financial crisis who would guarantee our deposits. Or the debatable issue around all the mortgages and pensions that will have to be paid or be paid in £ sterling. OK, some seem to think that won't be an issue, but all the analysis I have seen suggests it absolutely will. If someone can point to some facts, not opinions, it will not be a problem then happy to review.

Overall its a significant risk and there needs to be some honesty about it.

Remember when all the Brexiteers said leaving the EU would be a doddle and pain free.... But I am sure you will tell me it will be different because we are better and all that stuff.

[marinello59]

I've seen enough on this thread regarding "the cringe", to last a lifetime. The point I make stands. New Independent countries move forward, and make the changes necessary for them. Some even join the euro, after a short while.

We've had, the Snp hate the English, peppered with, it'll be too difficult, divisive, and we'll be like Greece without the sun.

Time to reflect on, what we currently have, you know, that strong and stable governance from London.

I'm all for getting in the lifeboat.

I’d prefer to think we’d be sailing our own ship rather than jumping in to a survival craft. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

I’d prefer to think we’d be sailing our own ship rather than jumping in to a survival craft. :greengrin

The mother ship awaits. 😂

[makaveli1875]

R7 was trying to show that countries have gone through a similar process, so it's perfectly possible to do it.

Your discussion seems to be coming from a position that it would be a disaster in Scotland... It's a valid point, but what makes you think that?

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It is perfectly possible to do it , Scotland is probably in a much better starting point than alot of recent independent countries born out of wars and conflict. A Scottish currency could and should do reasonably well but the issue is this , are enough people in the country going to be prepared to give up the pound ?
They could offer to mint the new currency in real gold , theres still going to be alot of folk would prefer to keep their nickel alloy pounds

[Just Alf]

And I was querying what the similarities with these countries were with Scotland, other than the obvious physical act of setting up a currency. If we are comparing the fact these countries set up a new currency as well then it seems like a fair challenge?

The narrative around the currency debate seems to be it will be a fairly simple and pain free process, while I believe it will be the opposite and it will in fact be exceptionally complex to implement. At the same time I believe it will be painful and dangerous to the Scottish Economy. One example is no longer having a lender of the last resort, so in the event of a financial crisis who would guarantee our deposits. Or the debatable issue around all the mortgages and pensions that will have to be paid or be paid in £ sterling. OK, some seem to think that won't be an issue, but all the analysis I have seen suggests it absolutely will. If someone can point to some facts, not opinions, it will not be a problem then happy to review.

Overall its a significant risk and there needs to be some honesty about it.

Remember when all the Brexiteers said leaving the EU would be a doddle and pain free.... But I am sure you will tell me it will be different because we are better and all that stuff.Right, I'm maybe misreading this thread, Ive had another look and not once has anyone said it's going to be easy. There's talk of its going to be a disaster and there's responses saying that other countries have done it so the bottom line is its possible.

Rereading it again the only person that seems to have a fixed view point on how good/bad/indifferent the government of the day will implement the change seems to be you, it IS a valid point you're making but what's the premise behind it? What is it that makes you belive that on the really good to really bad scale we'll sit on the bad end of it?

"Overall its a significant risk and there needs to be some honesty about it."

Couldn't agree more :agree


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[Just Alf]

It is perfectly possible to do it , Scotland is probably in a much better starting point than alot of recent independent countries born out of wars and conflict. A Scottish currency could and should do reasonably well but the issue is this , are enough people in the country going to be prepared to give up the pound ?
They could offer to mint the new currency in real gold , theres still going to be alot of folk would prefer to keep their nickel alloy poundsYup, it's a huge question, as James310, I think, says.. Only 14% or so want what the SNP are proposing so they have a big job to get people onside about it.

I did have a wry smile last week when I read that Panama was one of the top 5 happiest countries in the world, they informally use the US Dollar as a currency.
Maybe we should stick with the rUK pound!

:-)



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[Ozyhibby]

Yup, it's a huge question, as James310, I think, says.. Only 14% or so want what the SNP are proposing so they have a big job to get people onside about it.

I did have a wry smile last week when I read that Panama was one of the top 5 happiest countries in the world, they informally use the US Dollar as a currency.
Maybe we should stick with the rUK pound!

:-)



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We probably will stick with the pound and the rUK will welcome that. Just not during the campaign.


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[JeMeSouviens]

It is perfectly possible to do it , Scotland is probably in a much better starting point than alot of recent independent countries born out of wars and conflict. A Scottish currency could and should do reasonably well but the issue is this , are enough people in the country going to be prepared to give up the pound ?
They could offer to mint the new currency in real gold , theres still going to be alot of folk would prefer to keep their nickel alloy pounds

Do you mean just a sentimental attachment to the actual physical currency? :confused:

I must admit that thought had never occurred to me. Although, thinking about it now, I suspect the overlap between people who are sentimental about UK currency and people who are sitting at home in their Union Jack underpants sticking pins in their Sturgeon voodoo doll is probably near enough 100% anyway. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

Do you mean just a sentimental attachment to the actual physical currency? :confused:

I must admit that thought had never occurred to me. Although, thinking about it now, I suspect the overlap between people who are sentimental about UK currency and people who are sitting at home in their Union Jack underpants sticking pins in their Sturgeon voodoo doll is probably near enough 100% anyway. :wink:

While waiting on their Blue passport arriving even though they never go anywhere.


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[Fife-Hibee]

All the SNP need to do is commit to putting auld queenie on it and we're good to go.

[WeeRussell]

All the SNP need to do is commit to putting auld queenie on it and we're good to go.

No danger am I using those coins - not unless she bans the jambo bigots.

[Larry Burns]

All the SNP need to do is commit to putting auld queenie on it and we're good to go.

Not exactly a vote winner, unfortunately

I imagine we'll become a Republic after Liz kicks it

[Ozyhibby]

Hilarious given the Westminster govt has achieved zero in the last three years and can’t even bring forward a queens speech.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190501/9fe9e7b52f961fd4e0b006749937e096.jpg



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[Larry Burns]

May is such a ****ing rent-a-quote

Absolutely zero substance, I genuinely think she'll go down as the worst PM in history

[Fife-Hibee]

May is such a ****ing rent-a-quote

Absolutely zero substance, I genuinely think she'll go down as the worst PM in history

Which is quite an incredible achievement, considering the historic competition she was up against. Boris will be choking to out do her.

[James310]

Climate change emergency - is this the same climate change emergency the SNP voted against a few weeks ago in the Scottish Parliament? Strange.

How does a cut in air passenger duty tally up with declaring this emergency?

Feels like a bit of jumping on the bandwagon for a few days of PR and that's about it.

[Ozyhibby]

Climate change emergency - is this the same climate change emergency the SNP voted against a few weeks ago in the Scottish Parliament? Strange.

How does a cut in air passenger duty tally up with declaring this emergency?

Feels like a bit of jumping on the bandwagon for a few days of PR and that's about it.

A few days of PR? Which part of the UK has by far the biggest percentage of its power generation from carbon free renewables?


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[James310]

A few days of PR? Which part of the UK has by far the biggest percentage of its power generation from carbon free renewables?


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Why not answer the questions?

Why vote against it only a few weeks ago? Did something change in those few weeks?

How does a cut in air passenger duty tally up with this emergency?

[Moulin Yarns]

Climate change emergency - is this the same climate change emergency the SNP voted against a few weeks ago in the Scottish Parliament? Strange.

How does a cut in air passenger duty tally up with declaring this emergency?

Feels like a bit of jumping on the bandwagon for a few days of PR and that's about it.

Every party voted against the Greens including tory, Labour and ldems not just the snp.

[James310]

Every party voted against the Greens including tory, Labour and ldems not just the snp.

That's great.

But do you want to make a stab at answering the questions?

Being a Green Party member I thought you would at least have a go?

[Smartie]

Climate change emergency - is this the same climate change emergency the SNP voted against a few weeks ago in the Scottish Parliament? Strange.

How does a cut in air passenger duty tally up with declaring this emergency?

Feels like a bit of jumping on the bandwagon for a few days of PR and that's about it.

It doesn't, some might say it is a tad hypocritical.

Well, those who jump on every single thing the SNP says and does in order to make some sort of point (to whom exactly is unclear) certainly would.

I find the interpretation of parties' attitudes towards green politics on here a little bit unusual. Anything short of green fundamentalism is jumped upon. The greens backing Scottish independence = selling out and condoning an oil-based economy. The SNP acknowledge that we have urgent environmental issues needing addressed - the first thing they do that may not be directly true to this is jumped upon.

People will still wake up tomorrow, eat meat and burn fossil fuels. It doesn't mean that a tanker isn't being turned.

[Ozyhibby]

The SNP govt setting yet more ambitious targets and putting it into actual law. Or maybe just a couple of days PR work?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-48123960?__twitter_impression=true


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[James310]

SNP win Dundee local by election but vote was down 6.7%. Labour vote up 8.1%. Tory vote down less than 1%.

For the Yes City of Dundee that's a bit of a surprise to see the SNP vote fall.

[Moulin Yarns]

SNP win Dundee local by election but vote was down 6.7%. Labour vote up 8.1%. Tory vote down less than 1%.

For the Yes City of Dundee that's a bit of a surprise to see the SNP vote fall.

SNP gain from Labour, so there is NO WAY the Labour vote is up 8.1%


https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/883478/romes-victory-restores-snp-majority-on-dundee-city-council/ (https://www.thecourier.co.uk/)


only 28.4% turnout

[James310]

11.1%?

North East (Dundee) By-Election, 1st Preferences;
SNP – 1507 (46.9%, -6.9)
Labour – 1224 (38.1%, +11.1)
Conservative - 271 (8.4%, -0.7)
Anti-Cuts - 91 (2.8%, +1.5)
Green - 77 (2.4%, +0.8)
Citizens First - 45 (1.4%, +1.4)

SNP win, stage TBC, first time not 50%+ in this ward.

[Moulin Yarns]

11.1%?

North East (Dundee) By-Election, 1st Preferences;
SNP – 1507 (46.9%, -6.9)
Labour – 1224 (38.1%, +11.1)
Conservative - 271 (8.4%, -0.7)
Anti-Cuts - 91 (2.8%, +1.5)
Green - 77 (2.4%, +0.8)
Citizens First - 45 (1.4%, +1.4)

SNP win, stage TBC, first time not 50%+ in this ward.

SNP Win at 6th stage.



Elected at stage 6
Electorate: 11,434
Votes cast: 3215
Turnout: 28.4%




Mr Rome, 32, romped to victory with 46.8% of the first preference vote, 283 votes ahead of Labour candidate Jim Malone, who took 38% of the vote.

It is more difficult to gauge the popularity of a party in the STV system as in a 1st past the post system. Labour lost the seat despite a rise in 1st preference votes and the SNP . Tory first vote down, who knows how many 2nd votes they got.

I don't know what the numbers were the last election, there might have been a much larger turnout

[JeMeSouviens]

SNP Win at 6th stage.






It is more difficult to gauge the popularity of a party in the STV system as in a 1st past the post system. Labour lost the seat despite a rise in 1st preference votes and the SNP . Tory first vote down, who knows how many 2nd votes they got.

I don't know what the numbers were the last election, there might have been a much larger turnout

It's a poor result for the SNP (going against the recent trend of very good by-election results which have mysteriously gone unreported on here, well I never!)

Labour held the seat from the last STV election but not with the first elected councillor. The by-election is then held but now there is only 1 candidate per party because they're only filling one seat. So the party that topped the poll last time (SNP) still tops the poll in the by-election (and in this case on a lower vote share), but technically are deemed to have gained a seat.

It might be fairer to allow the party whose councillor died (Labour) to backfill the seat without a by-election as an interim until the next local election.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's a poor result for the SNP (going against the recent trend of very good by-election results which have mysteriously gone unreported on here, well I never!)

Labour held the seat from the last STV election but not with the first elected councillor. The by-election is then held but now there is only 1 candidate per party because they're only filling one seat. So the party that topped the poll last time (SNP) still tops the poll in the by-election (and in this case on a lower vote share), but technically are deemed to have gained a seat.

It might be fairer to allow the party whose councillor died (Labour) to backfill the seat without a by-election as an interim until the next local election.

Of course, I was forgetting the 3 councillors ward, as was James310 obviously.