SNP nonsense

[SHODAN]

Meanwhile, academics at the recent Oxford conference on Rewriting the UK Constitution have predicted that the EU will make a public offer to Scotland once Brexit means there’s no further risk in offending Britain and no conflict of interest in wooing the Scots instead.

I'm curious as to what this means - a generic "come join the EU" statement or a formal guarantee that we'll be accepted in immediately on independence? The latter could tip it IMO especially if the Scottish Government can block an inevitable UK attempt to bar EU citizens from voting in a second referendum.

Actually, this is all a moot point as as we have established, now is perpetually "not the time" until support for Yes drops below 30%.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm curious as to what this means - a generic "come join the EU" statement or a formal guarantee that we'll be accepted in immediately on independence? The latter could tip it IMO especially if the Scottish Government can block an inevitable UK attempt to bar EU citizens from voting in a second referendum.

Actually, this is all a moot point as as we have established, now is perpetually "not the time" until support for Yes drops below 30%.

It would be hard to ban EU citizens from voting after they were included last time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

It would be hard to ban EU citizens from voting after they were included last time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It would be rejected anyway. No danger the Scottish Government would settle for that.

[cabbageandribs1875]

oh oh....i'm on a bit of a downer after reading what oor Nic said today :confused:

The UK and Scottish governments signed an agreement in October 2012 (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldselect/ldconst/62/6203.htm) which allowed the Scottish Parliament to legislate for the independence referendum to be held two years later.Ms Sturgeon told BBC Scotland on Thursday afternoon that she was "not open to the possibility" of another referendum being held without a similar agreement in place.

But Ms Sturgeon said: "My view is clear and always has been clear. The legal basis of any future independence referendum should be the same as the referendum in 2014, which is the transfer of power under a section 30 order.

there's not a hope in hell westminster will agree again, they know damn well fine exactly how a vote would go, , 2014 was this countries chance to break the shackles...and we blew it, after brexit if there's such a law for us to legally break away, westminster will make damn sure to make a law which won't allow us :confused:

oh aye and P.S. who invited that **** Hunt up here anyway :grr:

[James310]

oh oh....i'm on a bit of a downer after reading what oor Nic said today :confused:

The UK and Scottish governments signed an agreement in October 2012 (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldselect/ldconst/62/6203.htm) which allowed the Scottish Parliament to legislate for the independence referendum to be held two years later.Ms Sturgeon told BBC Scotland on Thursday afternoon that she was "not open to the possibility" of another referendum being held without a similar agreement in place.

But Ms Sturgeon said: "My view is clear and always has been clear. The legal basis of any future independence referendum should be the same as the referendum in 2014, which is the transfer of power under a section 30 order.

there's not a hope in hell westminster will agree again, they know damn well fine exactly how a vote would go, , 2014 was this countries chance to break the shackles...and we blew it, after brexit if there's such a law for us to legally break away westminster will make damn sure to make a law which won't allow us :confused:

oh aye and P.S. who invited that **** Hunt up here anyway :grr:

I saw that but it contradicts what her deputy Keith Brown was saying surely?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-deputy-says-nicola-sturgeon-should-call-indyref2-without-uk-permission-1-4884959

[cabbageandribs1875]

I saw that but it contradicts what her deputy Keith Brown was saying surely?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-deputy-says-nicola-sturgeon-should-call-indyref2-without-uk-permission-1-4884959


i've already read that link ta, it does yep, to be honest i'l believe Nicola Sturgeon before anyone else :(

[James310]

i've already read that link ta, it does yep, to be honest i'l believe Nicola Sturgeon before anyone else :(

Not good if your deputy is saying the opposite of the leader.

[Fife-Hibee]

oh oh....i'm on a bit of a downer after reading what oor Nic said today :confused:

The UK and Scottish governments signed an agreement in October 2012 (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldselect/ldconst/62/6203.htm) which allowed the Scottish Parliament to legislate for the independence referendum to be held two years later.Ms Sturgeon told BBC Scotland on Thursday afternoon that she was "not open to the possibility" of another referendum being held without a similar agreement in place.

But Ms Sturgeon said: "My view is clear and always has been clear. The legal basis of any future independence referendum should be the same as the referendum in 2014, which is the transfer of power under a section 30 order.

there's not a hope in hell westminster will agree again, they know damn well fine exactly how a vote would go, , 2014 was this countries chance to break the shackles...and we blew it, after brexit if there's such a law for us to legally break away, westminster will make damn sure to make a law which won't allow us :confused:

oh aye and P.S. who invited that **** Hunt up here anyway :grr:

Relax, Nicola knows exactly what she is doing. :wink:

The last thing she wants to do is burn the general public out with a non-legally binding referendum. The longer she holds off and demands a section 30 order and the longer it is denied, the more time it gives people in Scotland the chance to see just how undemocratically fascist the UK system is.

She's also holding off for an official offer from the European Union.

[JeMeSouviens]

I saw that but it contradicts what her deputy Keith Brown was saying surely?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-deputy-says-nicola-sturgeon-should-call-indyref2-without-uk-permission-1-4884959

Only if you can’t parse English. :rolleyes:

[Jack]

I saw that but it contradicts what her deputy Keith Brown was saying surely?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-deputy-says-nicola-sturgeon-should-call-indyref2-without-uk-permission-1-4884959

It really depends on the context and questions where he was giving his opinion does it not?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Relax, Nicola knows exactly what she is doing. :wink:

The last thing she wants to do is burn the general public out with a non-legally binding referendum. The longer she holds off and demands a section 30 order and the longer it is denied, the more time it gives people in Scotland the chance to see just how undemocratically fascist the UK system is.

She's also holding off for an official offer from the European Union.


i'm afraid i can't at the moment :boo hoo: it doesn't help when all my FB Nat friends have fell silent on the matter as well, i listen most days to 'indycar' guy on there so i'l wait see what he's saying tomorrow :hmmm: he seems to be the font of all knowledge :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

Not good if your deputy is saying the opposite of the leader.



turns out jackson carlaw introduced a little bit of his own fake news, i fell for it, and after watching a video last night on FB explaining events it turns out i wasn't the only one, that won't happen again :cb:greengrin


he's just a FTB

[JeMeSouviens]

It really depends on the context and questions where he was giving his opinion does it not?

It really doesn't. He said Scotgov shouldn't not ask for a S30 order because they anticipate the request would be refused. That says absolutely nothing about what they would do following a refusal.

[Jack]

It really doesn't. He said Scotgov shouldn't not ask for a S30 order because they anticipate the request would be refused. That says absolutely nothing about what they would do following a refusal.

I don't recall hearing the question that was asked or if it was an 'open thinking' session discussing all the options. It really does make a difference.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't recall hearing the question that was asked or if it was an 'open thinking' session discussing all the options. It really does make a difference.

Keith Brown is directly quoted about whether Scotgov should ask for a S30.

Nicola Sturgeon is directly quoted about whether to hold a referendum without a S30.

Since they are not talking about the same thing, how can the context change whether one is contradicting the other?

[James310]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/back-down-the-slide/

Recent poll commissioned by Wings has a Unionist majority in the Scottish Parliament if I am reading this right.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/back-down-the-slide/

Recent poll commissioned by Wings has a Unionist majority in the Scottish Parliament if I am reading this right.

Yes. You are reading it correctly. Not sure how it is SNP nonsense though. 😉

[cabbageandribs1875]

21791

[James310]

So the IRA have 'admitted' an attack in Scotland yet not a peep from anyone in the Scottish Government? Why not?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ira-claims-responsibility-for-london-and-glasgow-letterbombs-a4089166.html



https://news.sky.com/story/ira-says-it-is-responsible-for-parcel-bombs-police-11662974

[marinello59]

So the IRA have 'admitted' an attack in Scotland yet not a peep from anyone in the Scottish Government? Why not?

https://news.sky.com/story/ira-says-it-is-responsible-for-parcel-bombs-police-11662974

Somebody saying they are the IRA have claimed responsibility. Given the amateur nature of the letter bomb campaign I would doubt very much that they were behind it. The Scottish Goverment are quite rightly saying nothing as enquiries continue here and in Ireland.

[weecounty hibby]

So the IRA have 'admitted' an attack in Scotland yet not a peep from anyone in the Scottish Government? Why not?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ira-claims-responsibility-for-london-and-glasgow-letterbombs-a4089166.html



https://news.sky.com/story/ira-says-it-is-responsible-for-parcel-bombs-police-11662974
So what are you insinuating?

[James310]

So what are you insinuating?

That if it was an IRA terror attack in Scotland I would have expected some condemnation. Although looks like more investigation is required.

[Mibbes Aye]

So the IRA have 'admitted' an attack in Scotland yet not a peep from anyone in the Scottish Government? Why not?


www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ira-claims-responsibility-for-london-and-glasgow-letterbombs-a4089166.html (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ira-claims-responsibility-for-london-and-glasgow-letterbombs-a4089166.html)


https://news.sky.com/story/ira-says-it-is-responsible-for-parcel-bombs-police-11662974

Not sure if this sits in this thread?

I'm not a Scottish Nationalist by any stretch of the imagination but I'm not sure this is the best place to discuss it, unless you want to conjure an angle about nationalism and the use of violence, and being reasonable, Scottish nationalism has not tended to involve active and criminal violence. A lack of comment from SG doesn't indicate tacit support.

There are good arguments that the idea and ethos of nationalism are extremely and violently wrong on a philosophical basis but some of those debates have been had already on here and if they are to be repeated then they probably deserve a thread of their own.

What appears clear is there is a tailed-on end to the Provisionals, some of them identifying with 'the struggle', some of them Marxist/INLA and clinging on to a political argument, some of them crossing between the two. And then some, for whom it is an income through the links to criminality, and how organised crime supports that.

I've no doubt that the majority sentiment has shifted away from support for terrorist activity. The splinter groups may attract the die-hards but they don't attract the majority of Catholic voters, in fact most reject it.

Time is a great healer and Northern Ireland has moved on massively since the Good Friday agreement. They are floundering just now with the debacle about Stormont, but it is impossible to imagine things going back to the way they were - society has moved on and it is unimaginable that in a world of 5G, Amazon, home working as common rather than a rarity, your supermarket delivering your groceries to your door, quite simply a step-change from ten or twenty years ago - people's mindsets have changed, because they've had to change. People's day-to-day life has changed and with that, their outlook on politics has changed.

Still some die-hards and old-school types but they have become less influential and become the minority

[weecounty hibby]

That if it was an IRA terror attack in Scotland I would have expected some condemnation. Although looks like more investigation is required.

Ok then

[James310]

Not sure if this sits in this thread?

I'm not a Scottish Nationalist by any stretch of the imagination but I'm not sure this is the best place to discuss it, unless you want to conjure an angle about nationalism and the use of violence, and being reasonable, Scottish nationalism has not tended to involve active and criminal violence. A lack of comment from SG doesn't indicate tacit support.



Not at all. If it was the IRA, and appreciate that it is still to be verified, then I don't recall them targeting Scotland before, certainly not when I was growing up in 80s and 90s so it would have been quite a change of tactics.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not at all. If it was the IRA, and appreciate that it is still to be verified, then I don't recall them targeting Scotland before, certainly not when I was growing up in 80s and 90s so it would have been quite a change of tactics.

Perhaps the target being an army recruitment officer, rather than Glasgow University says more about the silence from the defence secretary.

[Mibbes Aye]

Not at all. If it was the IRA, and appreciate that it is still to be verified, then I don't recall them targeting Scotland before, certainly not when I was growing up in 80s and 90s so it would have been quite a change of tactics.

Yeah, fair enough. In the 70s and 80s and to an extent into the 90s, when PIRA was active it was very much in England.

Since Good Friday it has really been the dissidents and they haven't struck in Scotland. My sense is they are a very fractured movement or movements and I think they are absolutely riddden with informers or agents for the security services.

Maybe something about their attempts and the Loyalist gangs to be involved in organised crime in Scotland, drugs I guess, but that's a whole different matter

[Jack]

I don't think the Scottish Government have a role to play in counter terrorism of this sort. London will have taken the lead.

[Smartie]

So the IRA have 'admitted' an attack in Scotland yet not a peep from anyone in the Scottish Government? Why not?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ira-claims-responsibility-for-london-and-glasgow-letterbombs-a4089166.html



https://news.sky.com/story/ira-says-it-is-responsible-for-parcel-bombs-police-11662974

Someone farted on my bus home tonight.

I couldn't get home fast enough to post about it on the "Tories are lying *******s" thread, whether it was in any way relevant or not.


You have made some decent anti-independence points in the past, but this scattergun approach of hurling the most tenuous and sometimes (like here) completely irrelevant arguments into the mix is starting to go against your cause, rather than for it.

[CropleyWasGod]

In other news, Simon Pia has tweeted that he made a big mistake in voting No in 2014.

[Mibbes Aye]

In other news, Simon Pia has tweeted that he made a big mistake in voting No in 2014.

Simon Pia's big problem is thinking he has any real credibility.

He lost it when he got involved in the attacks on STF.

They were groundless.

It's a shame because at one point Pia was relatively respected as a writer.

[hibsbollah]

Someone farted on my bus home tonight.

I couldn't get home fast enough to post about it on the "Tories are lying *******s" thread, whether it was in any way relevant or not.


You have made some decent anti-independence points in the past, but this scattergun approach of hurling the most tenuous and sometimes (like here) completely irrelevant arguments into the mix is starting to go against your cause, rather than for it.

To be fair, he's not doing anything different from some of the Hibs.net SNP supporters, who spend most of their days trolling on the 'future of the Labour party' thread. There's never a decent argument worth engaging with, and they usually come from people who are so far to the right of Nicolas manifesto that it's arguable whether or not they even know what the party they claim to support even stand for.

[James310]

To be fair, he's not doing anything different from some of the Hibs.net SNP supporters, who spend most of their days trolling on the 'future of the Labour party' thread. There's never a decent argument worth engaging with, and they usually come from people who are do far to the right of Nicolas manifesto that it's arguable whether or not they even know what the party they claim to support even stand for.

You know what I think the last few days I have posted things I probably would not have in the past. Point taken so will have a few days off and come back and hopefully (can't promise) post only when I feel its relevant and adds something.

[hibsbollah]

You know what I think the last few days I have posted things I probably would not have in the past. Point taken so will have a few days off and come back and hopefully (can't promise) post only when I feel its relevant and adds something.

If only you weren't alone in that.

[heretoday]

Simon Pia's big problem is thinking he has any real credibility.

He lost it when he got involved in the attacks on STF.

They were groundless.

It's a shame because at one point Pia was relatively respected as a writer.
He's a Hibby. Sorry if already posted.

[Smartie]

You know what I think the last few days I have posted things I probably would not have in the past. Point taken so will have a few days off and come back and hopefully (can't promise) post only when I feel its relevant and adds something.

Nah, don't do that.

Get stuck in.

Just expect to get called out for stuff when people disagree or don't like what you say.

There's nothing worse than an echo chamber where everyone agrees.

:aok:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

He's a Hibby. Sorry if already posted.

Have you not noticed from this site yet that we are able to talk pish with the best of them? 😁

[Mibbes Aye]

He's a Hibby. Sorry if already posted.

I know he is a Hibs fan.

I don't feel he has any credibility, based on his behaviour.

[Mibbes Aye]

Nah, don't do that.

Get stuck in.

Just expect to get called out for stuff when people disagree or don't like what you say.

There's nothing worse than an echo chamber where everyone agrees.

:aok:

Good post.

James310, I agree and disagree with what you say but it's a healthier place if you, or anyone else, challenges me, you or any other poster, especially if it's based on evidence or a sound set of principles.

[allmodcons]

Simon Pia's big problem is thinking he has any real credibility.

He lost it when he got involved in the attacks on STF.

They were groundless.

It's a shame because at one point Pia was relatively respected as a writer.

You're on dangerous ground here MA.

During the debate on here in the run up to the 2014 referendum I was convinced that one of two posters, either you or ODS, was Simon Pia :greengrin

[Future17]

You're on dangerous ground here MA.

During the debate on here in the run up to the 2014 referendum I was convinced that one of two posters, either you or ODS, was Simon Pia :greengrin

I don't think MA's suggestion precludes that possibility. ;-)

[allmodcons]

I don't think MA's suggestion precludes that possibility. ;-)

MA's big problem is thinking he has any real credibility.

He lost it when he got involved in the attacks on the Yes movement.

They were groundless.

It's a shame because at one point MA was relatively respected as a writer.

[One Day Soon]

You're on dangerous ground here MA.

During the debate on here in the run up to the 2014 referendum I was convinced that one of two posters, either you or ODS, was Simon Pia :greengrin


That is by some margin the most offensive thing anyone has posted about me on .net. And if your opinion of me reflects my opinion of him then it is even more offensive.

On the other hand I take his conversion to the Yes cause as extremely good news, for the No camp.

[allmodcons]

That is by some margin the most offensive thing anyone has posted about me on .net. And if your opinion of me reflects my opinion of him then it is even more offensive.

On the other hand I take his conversion to the Yes cause as extremely good news, for the No camp.

Calm yourself ODS. just a wee joke.

[One Day Soon]

Calm yourself ODS. just a wee joke.


As was my reply AMC, as was my reply. Though you are definitely welcome to him...

[allmodcons]

As was my reply AMC, as was my reply. Though you are definitely welcome to him...

I think I also called you out as Ian Gray during referendum :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

well well well... shockerooni


21808

[James310]

well well well... shockerooni


21808

Source? Don't tell me off twitter from some pro Nationalists account...

[cabbageandribs1875]

Source? Don't tell me off twitter from some pro Nationalists account...


the conservative and Labour unionist FB page............does that make a real difference :confused:



did you not see it yourself jo..james

[James310]

the conservative and Labour unionist FB page............does that make a real difference :confused:



did you not see it yourself jo..james

Such a page exists?

Well it does make a difference, if it was from a well known Nat like the lovely Jeggit then I would wonder how serious it is. But if say it was from some respected source then yes it makes a difference. I still don't know how they could prove it, unless he has admitted it?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Such a page exists?

Well it does make a difference, if it was from a well known Nat like the lovely Jeggit then I would wonder how serious it is. But if say it was from some respected source then yes it makes a difference. I still don't know how they could prove it, unless he has admitted it?



who :confused: what do you think of his name changes ? it's confusing eh

[James310]

who :confused: what do you think of his name changes ? it's confusing eh

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/tories-call-on-snp-to-sever-links-with-pro-independence-blogger-1-4865639

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46373363

Both sides have them.

[One Day Soon]

I think I also called you out as Ian Gray during referendum :greengrin


Did you, I don't remember that. Is he not an Iain though? Sadly I'm not him, his Scottish Parliament pension entitlement would be nice to have.

[pacoluna]

To be fair, he's not doing anything different from some of the Hibs.net SNP supporters, who spend most of their days trolling on the 'future of the Labour party' thread. There's never a decent argument worth engaging with, and they usually come from people who are so far to the right of Nicolas manifesto that it's arguable whether or not they even know what the party they claim to support even stand for.

Pretty obvious what they stand for. That reason being why they've been in government for 3 consecutive elections.

[James310]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/tories-call-on-snp-to-sever-links-with-pro-independence-blogger-1-4865639

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46373363

Both sides have them.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-msp-gets-panic-alarm-cybernats-won-t-stop-me-1-4894892?sd09fsfsd-f



Sad that a man doing his job has to put up with this abuse. It's his family that I feel sorry for the most.

There are wallopers on both sides but afraid there does seem to be a really nasty element on the Yes side.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-msp-gets-panic-alarm-cybernats-won-t-stop-me-1-4894892?sd09fsfsd-f



Sad that a man doing his job has to put up with this abuse. It's his family that I feel sorry for the most.

There are wallopers on both sides but afraid there does seem to be a really nasty element on the Yes side.

No examples in that story?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

No examples in that story?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did you read the right article?

Mr Cole-Hamilton said: “The police were worried the abuse I was receiving was getting increasingly dark and aggressive"

He was sent messages calling him a “c***” and “Judas rat”, threatening his parents, and accusing him of bending “both legs to the English Crown”.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-msp-gets-panic-alarm-cybernats-won-t-stop-me-1-4894892?sd09fsfsd-f



Sad that a man doing his job has to put up with this abuse. It's his family that I feel sorry for the most.

There are wallopers on both sides but afraid there does seem to be a really nasty element on the Yes side.

Hilarious.

I'm sure Nicola Sturgeon's inbox is just a box of delights. :rolleyes:

[James310]

Hilarious.

I'm sure Nicola Sturgeon's inbox is just a box of delights. :rolleyes:

Hilarious? OK.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hilarious? OK.

You've seriously got nothing better to talk about in today's political climate than which side of the Scottish constitutional debate has worse trolls? It's almost as if you don't really come on here to talk about the issues but just to regurgitate an endless stream of smears and propoganda-talking-points cut'n'pasted from your Tory emails. Disingenuous doesn't begin to cover it.

[James310]

You've seriously got nothing better to talk about in today's political climate than which side of the Scottish constitutional debate has worse trolls? It's almost as if you don't really come on here to talk about the issues but just to regurgitate an endless stream of smears and propoganda-talking-points cut'n'pasted from your Tory emails. Disingenuous doesn't begin to cover it.

Apologies I thought a story in the news was you know news. I never realised the Edinburgh Evening News was such a right wing Tory paper.

If you think a MSP getting death threats because of his views and having to install a panic alarm in his house to protect his family is merely 'propaganda' then that's fine, but I disagree.

I thought you were ignoring me anyway, your not very good at that are you.

[JeMeSouviens]

Apologies I thought a story in the news was you know news. I never realised the Edinburgh Evening News was such a right wing Tory paper.

If you think a MSP getting death threats because of his views and having to install a panic alarm in his house to protect his family is merely 'propaganda' then that's fine, but I disagree.

I thought you were ignoring me anyway, your not very good at that are you.

I did say I would try and ignore you, but you are intensely irritating. By design, clearly, so good job.

What has happened to Mr C-H is clearly reprehensible and perpetrated by ********s.

However ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42977342
https://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-minister-humza-yousaf-fears-for-his-life-over-racist-death-threats-1-4682344
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15168548.death-threat-snp-mps-home-fitted-with-alarms-and-panic-buttons/

Your "oh look those bad Nats are so much worse than us" pish, is just that, grade A pish.

[Just Alf]

I did say I would try and ignore you, but you are intensely irritating. By design, clearly, so good job.

What has happened to Mr C-H is clearly reprehensible and perpetrated by ********s.

However ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42977342
https://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-minister-humza-yousaf-fears-for-his-life-over-racist-death-threats-1-4682344
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15168548.death-threat-snp-mps-home-fitted-with-alarms-and-panic-buttons/

Your "oh look those bad Nats are so much worse than us" pish, is just that, grade A pish.Thanks saved me some googling!

James310, the best of this is, right up to the 2nd part of your last sentence we'd all have agreed with you!

Bottom line is that there's zoomers on all sides.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[greenlex]

Apologies I thought a story in the news was you know news. I never realised the Edinburgh Evening News was such a right wing Tory paper.

If you think a MSP getting death threats because of his views and having to install a panic alarm in his house to protect his family is merely 'propaganda' then that's fine, but I disagree.

I thought you were ignoring me anyway, your not very good at that are you.

For a bit of balance the EEN was running a story about John Leslie renting out his flat. I’m unsure whether to file that in the news file or propaganda file. Respected institution that it is.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-msp-gets-panic-alarm-cybernats-won-t-stop-me-1-4894892?sd09fsfsd-f



Sad that a man doing his job has to put up with this abuse. It's his family that I feel sorry for the most.

There are wallopers on both sides but afraid there does seem to be a really nasty element on the Yes side.

As folk have said, there are plonkers on all sides.

Maybe he should have thought long and hard, before, personally posting leaflets, through Michelle Thomson's door, which were smearing her, and caused her daughter some distress.

He was the one causing the distress then, but thought nothing of it.

"You know what got me - that @agcolehamilton PERSONALLY delivered smearing leaflets to my own house (he knows where I live as very close to him). It caused my daughter extreme anxiety and sadness. Not the actions of a family man."

[stoneyburn hibs]

As folk have said, there are plonkers on all sides.

Maybe he should have thought long and hard, before, personally posting leaflets, through Michelle Thomson's door, which were smearing her, and caused her daughter some distress.

He was the one causing the distress then, but thought nothing of it.

"You know what got me - that @agcolehamilton PERSONALLY delivered smearing leaflets to my own house (he knows where I live as very close to him). It caused my daughter extreme anxiety and sadness. Not the actions of a family man."

That's pretty poor by Hamilton,in fact terrible.

[James310]

I know we were debating the group the 'Common Weal' or 'Common Space' on the Brexit thread so have moved this over here, they seem to be respected by a lot of nationalists.

Well, Robin McAlphine a Director of Common Weal has said:

The SNPs plans on currency will 'certainly mean permanent downwards pressure on public spending and almost certainly austerity'

So if there is IndyRef2, if Yes win, then expect austerity for many years.

But as one poster put it, who cares what the currency is as long as 'we are independent'. I would suggest a lot of people care and they should care.

Here is a further snippet.

"So the next time someone tells you that austerity is an 'optional extra' in the Growth Commission or that it would 'only be ten years', they've not understood the report. We would emphatically NOT be out of special measures in ten years (as the Growth Commission authors are admitting privately). This is a generation of banker-run Scotland with the austerity to go with it.

If you think I'm being excessively grim, let me reassure you that I'm leaving out the actually scary stuff so it can't be quoted back at us.

But, to give you a flavour of those, let me set out one typical example. What the hell would Scotland do if there was a UK financial or economic crisis while we were Sterlingised. What would we do?

No monetary policy response, no fiscal policy response, no means to protect national liquidity, no ability to defend our economy in any way whatsoever. We'd be utterly crucified"

It's going to be interesting watching how this debate unfolds at the SNP conference.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/12825/robin-mcalpine-we-need-swift-end-growth-commission-madness-and-find-some-self-respect

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/14039/robin-mcalpine-four-words-lose-us-independence-ecuador-lichtenstein-montenegro-panama

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.progressscotland.org/research/first-progress-scotland-poll-shows-brexit-impact

Polling figures look interesting.

[James310]

https://www.progressscotland.org/research/first-progress-scotland-poll-shows-brexit-impact

Polling figures look interesting.

Same poll showed 40% fully committed to the UK and 24% fully committed to indy.

[Just Alf]

I know we were debating the group the 'Common Weal' or 'Common Space' on the Brexit thread so have moved this over here, they seem to be respected by a lot of nationalists.

Well, Robin McAlphine a Director of Common Weal has said:

The SNPs plans on currency will 'certainly mean permanent downwards pressure on public spending and almost certainly austerity'

So if there is IndyRef2, if Yes win, then expect austerity for many years.

But as one poster put it, who cares what the currency is as long as 'we are independent'. I would suggest a lot of people care and they should care.

Here is a further snippet.

"So the next time someone tells you that austerity is an 'optional extra' in the Growth Commission or that it would 'only be ten years', they've not understood the report. We would emphatically NOT be out of special measures in ten years (as the Growth Commission authors are admitting privately). This is a generation of banker-run Scotland with the austerity to go with it.

If you think I'm being excessively grim, let me reassure you that I'm leaving out the actually scary stuff so it can't be quoted back at us.

But, to give you a flavour of those, let me set out one typical example. What the hell would Scotland do if there was a UK financial or economic crisis while we were Sterlingised. What would we do?

No monetary policy response, no fiscal policy response, no means to protect national liquidity, no ability to defend our economy in any way whatsoever. We'd be utterly crucified"

It's going to be interesting watching how this debate unfolds at the SNP conference.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/12825/robin-mcalpine-we-need-swift-end-growth-commission-madness-and-find-some-self-respect

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/14039/robin-mcalpine-four-words-lose-us-independence-ecuador-lichtenstein-montenegro-panamaI see what your saying, you're presuming the SNP get voted in though, in a iScotland. I can easily see Labour there instead which then makes SNP policies a moot point longer term. (I'll Caveat it by adding I do think the SNP will win the "honeymoon" election and of course Labour will need to pick up their performances quite a bit)

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Over 80,000 baby boxes delivered and in use since the launch in 2017, and 96% of expectant parents now requesting one.

Ye cannae beat it.

#braw

[James310]

I see what your saying, you're presuming the SNP get voted in though, in a iScotland. I can easily see Labour there instead which then makes SNP policies a moot point longer term. (I'll Caveat it by adding I do think the SNP will win the "honeymoon" election and of course Labour will need to pick up their performances quite a bit)

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

This is part of the grand master plan that is supposed to convince you to vote for Indy, part of the plan for Independence. OK, it might change if another party was in Government but make no mistake what is decided at the SNP conference will be SNP policy and if we ever vote for Indy it will be implemented and so will a generation of austerity, the same kind of austerity that the SNP were so up in arms about not so long ago.

It looks like the SNP are even going for it in the first few years as well:


"NICOLA Sturgeon is facing a conference showdown after six party branches backed plans for a new currency within the first term of an independent Scottish Parliament.

The SNP leadership has not supported a fixed timescale for scrapping sterling, but branches are supporting an alternative plan they hope will be approved at the Edinburgh gathering next month"

As you can see there is no easy solution and this is their third attempt at a currency.

But I wait for the people coming on and commenting how the analysis is nonsense and clearly written by a Unionist. Or maybe they just actually don't care enough about the analysis and accept it, as long as they get Independence.

[ronaldo7]

I believe this is getting a few uber unionists hot under the collar. Shame.

https://twitter.com/Scotland/status/1111562008065904640

[JeMeSouviens]

This is part of the grand master plan that is supposed to convince you to vote for Indy, part of the plan for Independence. OK, it might change if another party was in Government but make no mistake what is decided at the SNP conference will be SNP policy and if we ever vote for Indy it will be implemented and so will a generation of austerity, the same kind of austerity that the SNP were so up in arms about not so long ago.

It looks like the SNP are even going for it in the first few years as well:


"NICOLA Sturgeon is facing a conference showdown after six party branches backed plans for a new currency within the first term of an independent Scottish Parliament.

The SNP leadership has not supported a fixed timescale for scrapping sterling, but branches are supporting an alternative plan they hope will be approved at the Edinburgh gathering next month"

As you can see there is no easy solution and this is their third attempt at a currency.

But I wait for the people coming on and commenting how the analysis is nonsense and clearly written by a Unionist. Or maybe they just actually don't care enough about the analysis and accept it, as long as they get Independence.

Do you understand what you’re posting?

In your first one you (a Tory) quote a radical lefty on the case for an independent Scots currency then in the 2nd one you quote an article saying NS will implement an independent Scots currency as if that’s a terrible thing.

I surmise that you’re at your cut’n’pasting-what-you’re-told-to again. :rolleyes:

[James310]

Do you understand what you’re posting?

In your first one you (a Tory) quote a radical lefty on the case for an independent Scots currency then in the 2nd one you quote an article saying NS will implement an independent Scots currency as if that’s a terrible thing.

I surmise that you’re at your cut’n’pasting-what-you’re-told-to again. :rolleyes:

Instead of constantly directing your ire at me personally, why don't you focus on the analysis your presented with. But I thought you were ignoring me, your not trying very hard are you?

For the record I can post what I want, if I think it's relevant. Is everything I posted relevant and on subject to the currency debate? Yes, it is.

Take your frustration out at the conference when it's debated, perhaps you can tell us what you think? Or maybe you don't care as long as it delivers Independence.

[JeMeSouviens]

Instead of constantly directing your ire at me personally, why don't you focus on the analysis your presented with. But I thought you were ignoring me, your not trying very hard are you?

For the record I can post what I want, if I think it's relevant. Is everything I posted relevant and on subject to the currency debate? Yes, it is.

Take your frustration out at the conference when it's debated, perhaps you can tell us what you think? Or maybe you don't care as long as it delivers Independence.

Is that focus on the analysis against a Scots currency or for one?

Tell you what, here’s a thought, why don’t you try making a positive case for the Tory party? I can’t actually remember you doing that?

Is anything you posted your own work? No, it isn’t.

[James310]

Is that focus on the analysis against a Scots currency or for one?

Tell you what, here’s a thought, why don’t you try making a positive case for the Tory party? I can’t actually remember you doing that?

Is anything you posted your own work? No, it isn’t.
I am not the one proposing massive change, therefore I am not the one having to persuade anyone.

Not my own work? That's laughable. So I await your 10,000 word thesis on the future of Scotland and the currency it should adopt.

It's a major issue and the panic is starting to set in.

Maybe ask Joanna?

https://youtu.be/Wny6XhsV2hE

[JeMeSouviens]

I am not the one proposing massive change, therefore I am not the one having to persuade anyone.

Not my own work? That's laughable. So I await your 10,000 word thesis on the future of Scotland and the currency it should adopt.

It's a major issue and the panic is starting to set in.

Maybe ask Joanna?

https://youtu.be/Wny6XhsV2hE

You do seem very panicky right enough. :wink:

[James310]

You do seem very panicky right enough. :wink:

😂 We will see the panic at the conference, not long to go.

[ronaldo7]

😂 We will see the panic at the conference, not long to go.

:faf::faf::faf:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-dance-video-speech-conservative-conference-tory-party-coughing-joke-a8566386.html

[JeMeSouviens]

😂 We will see the panic at the conference, not long to go.

You might get 2 conferences. Are you in the Etonians or the Wykehamites?

[James310]

:faf::faf::faf:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-dance-video-speech-conservative-conference-tory-party-coughing-joke-a8566386.html

You add so much to the debate. Oh I forgot, you don't care do you.

[JeMeSouviens]

You add so much to the debate. Oh I forgot, you don't care do you.

Be honest, you couldn’t gaf what the currency choice of an iScotland would be. Whatever it is you will cut’n’paste frenziedly about how bad it is.

[ronaldo7]

You add so much to the debate. Oh I forgot, you don't care do you.

All I know, is that Scotland will have a currency whether you like it or not. Which currency? I'm not really bothered, Euro/Pound/Bawbee, because I know we'll make a go of it.

But No, you're a Tory, looking after your own interests, as they do, rather than looking out for others.

You come from the JRM wing of the party, waving your wee Union Flag and singing Jerusalem. Guid luck next time, Ye'll need it.

[James310]

Be honest, you couldn’t gaf what the currency choice of an iScotland would be. Whatever it is you will cut’n’paste frenziedly about how bad it is.

Well I do care because I don't want to see my savings eroded or my debts increase as I am sure others would as well. That's as well as all the other 'dangers' that have been pointed out. We should all care deeply about it as it will impact everyone's day to day life.

So far the SNP have had the Euro, then it was the pound, now it's this new currency. Make your mind up. But that's what the conference is for, so let's see, maybe a fourth option and another change will be proposed. Maybe put them all in a big hat and draw one out as the winner?

[James310]

All I know, is that Scotland will have a currency whether you like it or not. Which currency? I'm not really bothered, Euro/Pound/Bawbee, because I know we'll make a go of it.

But No, you're a Tory, looking after your own interests, as they do, rather than looking out for others.

You come from the JRM wing of the party, waving your wee Union Flag and singing Jerusalem. Guid luck next time, Ye'll need it.

Your masters seem to think different. Very rare for you to tow so far from the party line. Proves what an issue it is.

Your economic insight is surely lost on this board, you need to get along to the conference and suggest you don't care and it does not matter as we will make a right good go of it. That will win over the doubters, don't worry about your finances in an Indy Scotland as we will make a right good go of it.

[ronaldo7]

Your masters seem to think different. Very rare for you to tow so far from the party line. Proves what an issue it is.

Your economic insight is surely lost on this board, you need to get along to the conference and suggest you don't care and it does not matter as we will make a right good go of it. That will win over the doubters, don't worry about your finances in an Indy Scotland as we will make a right good go of it.

Do you think we'll have a currency?

Is Scotland the only country who couldn't handle Independence?

What are you so SCARED OF?

[ronaldo7]

Your masters seem to think different. Very rare for you to tow so far from the party line. Proves what an issue it is.

Your economic insight is surely lost on this board, you need to get along to the conference and suggest you don't care and it does not matter as we will make a right good go of it. That will win over the doubters, don't worry about your finances in an Indy Scotland as we will make a right good go of it.

At least I'd make it over the threshold. :wink::greengrin

[James310]

Do you think we'll have a currency?

Is Scotland the only country who couldn't handle Independence?

What are you so SCARED OF?

It's not up to me to persuade anyone or propose anything as I am not proposing massive and significant change. I am quite happy with my pound thank you, whether its from Bank of Scotland, RBS, Cyldesdale Bank or the Bank of England, makes no difference to me.

So far, in my opinion and in the opinion of many others, all the options so far proposed have not given me any confidence that it will be implemented successfully in an iScotland, and indeed it will lead to a generation and possibly more of a whole number of serious issues that will impact us all.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's not up to me to persuade anyone or propose anything as I am not proposing massive and significant change. I am quite happy with my pound thank you, whether its from Bank of Scotland, RBS, Cyldesdale Bank or the Bank of England, makes no difference to me.

So far, in my opinion and in the opinion of many others, all the options so far proposed have not given me any confidence that it will be implemented successfully in an iScotland, and indeed it will lead to a generation and possibly more of a whole number of serious issues that will impact us all.

So that's a vote for the £ sterling?

Good-oh.

[James310]

So that's a vote for the £ sterling?

Good-oh.

As part of the UK absolutely.

[CropleyWasGod]

As part of the UK absolutely.

Presumably, in the event of independence, you'd be happy with it?

[ronaldo7]

It's not up to me to persuade anyone or propose anything as I am not proposing massive and significant change. I am quite happy with my pound thank you, whether its from Bank of Scotland, RBS, Cyldesdale Bank or the Bank of England, makes no difference to me.

So far, in my opinion and in the opinion of many others, all the options so far proposed have not given me any confidence that it will be implemented successfully in an iScotland, and indeed it will lead to a generation and possibly more of a whole number of serious issues that will impact us all.

We'll have to agree to disagree, and get on the beat during the next Indyref. The groundwork will be done this time, and I look forward to batting away Project fear 2, it'll have to be more robust in telling OAP's they won't get their pension, or the oil only has 20 years left.

[James310]

Presumably, in the event of independence, you'd be happy with it.

Not sure you can really call yourself an Independent nation if your fiscal policy, monetary policy, debt management and interest rates are managed and set by the Bank of England. Is that Independence?

Why keep the currency of the Union your desperate to leave? (And funnily enough reject the currency of the Union you want to join, the Euro)

[CropleyWasGod]

Not sure you can really call yourself an Independent nation if your fiscal policy, monetary policy, debt management and interest rates are set by the Bank of England. Is that Independence?

Why keep the currency of the Union your desperate to leave? (And funnily enough reject the currency of the Union you want to join, the Euro)

And why not answer my query? 😀

[James310]

And why not answer my query? 😀

I think using the £ and having no control of it would not be a good move. We would be powerless in all aspects of monetary policy and at the mercy of the BoE who will be managing their policies based on the needs of the UK, not an iScotland. Its not what I would call an Independent nation. It would be another thing for people to moan about when it was not going well, it's all the BoE fault etc.

So that would be a no I would not be happy with the £ if we are to have no actual financial levers that go with it. As I said why would you want to keep the currency of the Union you want to leave.

Plus I don't believe you can join the EU using the currency of a foreign country, so that would rule out ever rejoining the EU (although I am not 100% sure if this is correct, but can't imagine the EU letting us join using another countries currency)

[Smartie]

FWIW I'm in favour of Scottish independence but not a fan of either keeping the pound or going into the Euro.

I'd rather remain dependent, just as we are right now.

I'm not sure how much worse it would be if we were outside the UK but still having policy chosen by the Bank of England than it is right now - Bank of England policy rarely having the best interests of Scotland at heart anyway.

[James310]

FWIW I'm in favour of Scottish independence but not a fan of either keeping the pound or going into the Euro.

I'd rather remain dependent, just as we are right now.

I'm not sure how much worse it would be if we were outside the UK but still having policy chosen by the Bank of England than it is right now - Bank of England policy rarely having the best interests of Scotland at heart anyway.

That's fair enough if Independence to you means not having any control of monetary policy, but it would likely just become something or someone else to blame when things don't go right. Thought the whole point of Independence was we make our own decisions and would have nobody to blame but ourselves.

[Stonewall]

FWIW I'm in favour of Scottish independence but not a fan of either keeping the pound or going into the Euro.

I'd rather remain dependent, just as we are right now.

I'm not sure how much worse it would be if we were outside the UK but still having policy chosen by the Bank of England than it is right now - Bank of England policy rarely having the best interests of Scotland at heart anyway.

If we were allowed to join the EEC would we have a choice?

[Bristolhibby]

If we were allowed to join the EEC would we have a choice?

Yes you would. Denmark has been preparing to adopt the Euro since 2001.

It’s a fall icy that has been peddled since IndyRef1.

No country has to unilaterally switch to the Euro. A country can just intentionally never switch.

It’s a bit like me, I’ve been meaning to clear the lost since I moved house three years ago. If asked I reply “I’m thinking about doing it”. That’s good enough, my missus thinks it will get done, and I never have any intention of clearing the loft.

J

[James310]

Yes you would. Denmark has been preparing to adopt the Euro since 2001.

It’s a fall icy that has been peddled since IndyRef1.

No country has to unilaterally switch to the Euro. A country can just intentionally never switch.

It’s a bit like me, I’ve been meaning to clear the lost since I moved house three years ago. If asked I reply “I’m thinking about doing it”. That’s good enough, my missus thinks it will get done, and I never have any intention of clearing the loft.

J
It's not really like the scenario you illustrate, to add context was it therefore a condition of buying your house you had to clean the loft? Did you buy the house agreeing to that condition?

We did go over this some pages back and even the CH4 fact finder proved you to have to adopt the Euro.

But here is a question why do some want to keep the currency of the Union they want to leave, but reject the currency of the Union they want to join?

[ronaldo7]

Yes you would. Denmark has been preparing to adopt the Euro since 2001.

It’s a fall icy that has been peddled since IndyRef1.

No country has to unilaterally switch to the Euro. A country can just intentionally never switch.

It’s a bit like me, I’ve been meaning to clear the lost since I moved house three years ago. If asked I reply “I’m thinking about doing it”. That’s good enough, my missus thinks it will get done, and I never have any intention of clearing the loft.

J

“I don’t want Scotland to have to settle for second best and become a marginalised part of a marginalised UK.”

Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon discusses the possibility of a second Scottish independence referendum in the event of a “sub-optimal” Brexit compromise. https://t.co/JkbjxLhIMT

[JeMeSouviens]

It's not really like the scenario you illustrate, to add context was it therefore a condition of buying your house you had to clean the loft? Did you buy the house agreeing to that condition?

We did go over this some pages back and even the CH4 fact finder proved you to have to adopt the Euro.

But here is a question why do some want to keep the currency of the Union they want to leave, but reject the currency of the Union they want to join?

“Proved”? Really?

Since you are so keen to discuss currency choice of iScotland could you briefly outline the pros and cons and external factors that might influence the choice between sterlingisation (short and long term), the euro or a Scots’ pound?

I await your rapier like insights but don’t feel safe to hold my breath. :wink:

[James310]

“Proved”? Really?

Since you are so keen to discuss currency choice of iScotland could you briefly outline the pros and cons and external factors that might influence the choice between sterlingisation (short and long term), the euro or a Scots’ pound?

I await your rapier like insights but don’t feel safe to hold my breath. :wink:

No, I don't need to prove or persuade anyone as I am not proposing significant change. My currency preference is no change at all, that's my solution. It's your sides job to tell us what the plan is and why they are confident it will work. If people don't have confidence in it then they won't be persuaded.

We don't know what your preference is though? Plus you never answered the question.

[JeMeSouviens]

No, I don't need to prove or persuade anyone as I am not proposing significant change. My currency preference is no change at all, that's my solution. It's your sides job to tell us what the plan is and why they are confident it will work. If people don't have confidence in it then they won't be persuaded.

We don't know what your preference is though? Plus you never answered the question.

You don’t know, do you?

Call me old fashioned but debating with someone who doesn’t even understand their own propaganda points seems a bit, pointless?

[James310]

You don’t know, do you?

Call me old fashioned but debating with someone who doesn’t even understand their own propaganda points seems a bit, pointless?

So your preference is again? You have not even told us where you stand, or do you stand where the SNP tell you to. Or maybe you don't care like R7? If you don't care just say so.

I will repeat again, its not my job to do so, I am not the one proposing the change. Normally what happens in the real world is if someone wants to change something they build a case for it and explain the benefits to persuade a group of people the change is good because of X, Y and Z and this is how we implement it, they don't ignore it and ask the person who wants no change to do that task. 😂

Feel free to ignore as I thought you were.

[JeMeSouviens]

So your preference is again? You have not even told us where you stand, or do you stand where the SNP tell you to. Or maybe you don't care like R7? If you don't care just say so.

I will repeat again, its not my job to do so, I am not the one proposing the change. Normally what happens in the real world is if someone wants to change something they build a case for it and explain the benefits to persuade a group of people the change is good because of X, Y and Z and this is how we implement it, they don't ignore it and ask the person who wants no change to do that task. 😂

I’ve posted my own preference on here multiple times before. And whether it’s your job or not, the simple fact is, you can’t explain the choices because you don’t understand them.

[James310]

Guy Verhofsdat tweets.

With #Brexit, the people of Europe can now see for themselves that the projects of nationalists and populists always end in disaster, a mess in which everyone loses. Watch my full speech 👇 https://t.co/C2Cjx5HpZA

[James310]

I’ve posted my own preference on here multiple times before. And whether it’s your job or not, the simple fact is, you can’t explain the choices because you don’t understand them.

I do. Point me in the direction of your insight?

[JeMeSouviens]

I do. Point me in the direction of your insight?

Search for it yourself. You can cut’n’paste it if you like :greengrin

[James310]

Search for it yourself. You can cut’n’paste it if you like :greengrin

Do I search for Euro, Pound, Groat, bawbag or don't care. No thanks.

[JeMeSouviens]

Do I search for Euro, Pound, Groat, bawbag or don't care. No thanks.

If at first you have no clue, fall back on mildly pejorative currency names. Standard Tory fare. :rolleyes:

[James310]

If at first you have no clue, fall back on mildly pejorative currency names. Standard Tory fare. :rolleyes:

They were quoted earlier, not by me.

[ronaldo7]

So your preference is again? You have not even told us where you stand, or do you stand where the SNP tell you to. Or maybe you don't care like R7? If you don't care just say so.

I will repeat again, its not my job to do so, I am not the one proposing the change. Normally what happens in the real world is if someone wants to change something they build a case for it and explain the benefits to persuade a group of people the change is good because of X, Y and Z and this is how we implement it, they don't ignore it and ask the person who wants no change to do that task. 😂

Feel free to ignore as I thought you were.

If you're going to quote me, please do it in context. I said I don't care what currency I use. Why would I, it'll get me my pint, just like the next man.

[ronaldo7]

It's not really like the scenario you illustrate, to add context was it therefore a condition of buying your house you had to clean the loft? Did you buy the house agreeing to that condition?

We did go over this some pages back and even the CH4 fact finder proved you to have to adopt the Euro.

But here is a question why do some want to keep the currency of the Union they want to leave, but reject the currency of the Union they want to join?

Fake news on the euro. Fact checked by the ferret. Found to be mostly untrue.

Don't beLIEve a tory.

[James310]

Fake news on the euro. Fact checked by the ferret. Found to be mostly untrue.

Don't beLIEve a tory.

Which disagrees with another fact check. Maybe the ferret is fake news.

[ronaldo7]

Which disagrees with another fact check. Maybe the ferret is fake news.

Bring back John.

[James310]

Fake news on the euro. Fact checked by the ferret. Found to be mostly untrue.

Don't beLIEve a tory.

'Former top SNP adviser Alex Bell said the Nationalists should be ‘honest’ with voters and admit that an independent Scotland in the EU ‘would have to prepare to join the euro’.

That bloody liar tory so and so Alex Bell.... Oh wait...

[stoneyburn hibs]

If you're going to quote me, please do it in context. I said I don't care what currency I use. Why would I, it'll get me my pint, just like the next man.

Exactly, most pro indy supporters won't be too fussed at what currency we use, just as long as it's a feasible currency.
And whatever currency option put forward, shown that it's feasible, a lot of uncertainty would diminish amongst those undecided voters

[James310]

Exactly, most pro indy supporters won't be too fussed at what currency we use, just as long as it's a feasible currency.
And whatever currency option put forward, shown that it's feasible, a lot of uncertainty would diminish amongst those undecided voters

I get that, but if your savings are eroded or your debt increases then you will care and question what has gone on and why has it happened. If there is massive capital flight from Scotland as well that will have a significant and unquantifiable impact.

It's a lot more than just picking a currency and off you go. But its complicated and I don't understand it.

Let's see what the SNP conference comes up with.

[allmodcons]

'Former top SNP adviser Alex Bell said the Nationalists should be ‘honest’ with voters and admit that an independent Scotland in the EU ‘would have to prepare to join the euro’.

That bloody liar tory so and so Alex Bell.... Oh wait...

So are we to take everything Alex Bell says as gospel?

There is absolutely no requirement to join the ERM, it's voluntary, and if you are not in the ERM you can't join the Euro.

Alex Bell should know better.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I get that, but if your savings are eroded or your debt increases then you will care and question what has gone on and why has it happened. If there is massive capital flight from Scotland as well that will have a significant and unquantifiable impact.

It's a lot more than just picking a currency and off you go. But its complicated and I don't understand it.

Let's see what the SNP conference comes up with.

Change your 1st paragraph from Scotland to the UK and you could just have easily been talking about post Brexit.

You do know that Scotland would be capable? We've had all this Project Fear chat before, especially the capital flight doom mongering.

[James310]

So are we to take everything Alex Bell says as gospel?

There is absolutely no requirement to join the ERM, it's voluntary, and if you are not in the ERM you can't join the Euro.

Alex Bell should know better.

Merely pointing out its nationalists as well that believe this to be true.

[allmodcons]

Merely pointing out its nationalists as well that believe this to be true.

It's absolutely not true though. He's got it wrong and you're peddling a myth.

[James310]

Change your 1st paragraph from Scotland to the UK and you could just have easily been talking about post Brexit.

You do know that Scotland would be capable? We've had all this Project Fear chat before, especially the capital flight doom mongering.

Billions have left the UK as a result of Brexit. Its not fear, its a fact.

[James310]

It's absolutely not true though. He's got it wrong and you're peddling a myth.

Yes sure, lots of people getting this wrong then on both sides. Normally it's just the one side.

[allmodcons]

Yes sure, lots of people getting this wrong then on both sides. Normally it's just the one side.

Is that you accepting it's not true?

[James310]

Is that you accepting it's not true?

Yea of course, all lies.

[Hibrandenburg]

Exactly, most pro indy supporters won't be too fussed at what currency we use, just as long as it's a feasible currency.
And whatever currency option put forward, shown that it's feasible, a lot of uncertainty would diminish amongst those undecided voters

I'm happy with the €. It's saved me a fortune on unnecessary currency exchanges. I also pay less € than £ for a pint.

[allmodcons]

Yea of course, all lies.


Why can't you just admit that you and Alex Bell have got it wrong?

These are excerpts from a European Commission Fact Sheet dated 23 May 2018. The bits in bold are important:-


WHAT IS ERM II?
The Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM II) was set up on 1 January 1999 as a successor to the original ERM to ensure that exchange rate fluctuations between the euro and other EU currencies do not disrupt economic stability within the single market, and to help non euro-area countries prepare themselves for participation in the euro area. The convergence criterion on exchange rate stability requires participation in ERM II.
Participation in ERM II is voluntary although, as one of the convergence criteria for entry to the euro area, a country must participate in the mechanism without severe tensions for at least two years before it can qualify to adopt the euro.
In ERM II, the exchange rate of a non-euro area Member State is fixed against the euro and is only allowed to fluctuate within set limits. 'Entry into ERM II is decided upon request of a Member State by consensus of all ERM II participants (euro-area Member States, ECB, and the ministers and central bank governors of the non-euro area Member States participating in the mechanism, i.e. currently Denmark)',


ARE MEMBER STATES OBLIGED TO JOIN THE EURO?
In principle, all Member States that do not have an opt-out clause (i.e. United Kingdom and Denmark) have committed to adopt the euro once they fulfil the necessary conditions. However, it is up to individual countries to calibrate their path towards the euro and no timetable is prescribed.
The Member States that joined the EU in 2004, 2007 and 2013, after the euro was launched, did not meet the conditions for entry to the euro area at the time of their accession. Therefore, their Treaties of Accession allow them time to make the necessary adjustments.

[James310]

Why can't you just admit that you and Alex Bell have got it wrong?

These are excerpts from a European Commission Fact Sheet dated 23 May 2018. The bits in bold are important:-


WHAT IS ERM II?
The Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM II) was set up on 1 January 1999 as a successor to the original ERM to ensure that exchange rate fluctuations between the euro and other EU currencies do not disrupt economic stability within the single market, and to help non euro-area countries prepare themselves for participation in the euro area. The convergence criterion on exchange rate stability requires participation in ERM II.
Participation in ERM II is voluntary although, as one of the convergence criteria for entry to the euro area, a country must participate in the mechanism without severe tensions for at least two years before it can qualify to adopt the euro.
In ERM II, the exchange rate of a non-euro area Member State is fixed against the euro and is only allowed to fluctuate within set limits. 'Entry into ERM II is decided upon request of a Member State by consensus of all ERM II participants (euro-area Member States, ECB, and the ministers and central bank governors of the non-euro area Member States participating in the mechanism, i.e. currently Denmark)',


ARE MEMBER STATES OBLIGED TO JOIN THE EURO?
In principle, all Member States that do not have an opt-out clause (i.e. United Kingdom and Denmark) have committed to adopt the euro once they fulfil the necessary conditions. However, it is up to individual countries to calibrate their path towards the euro and no timetable is prescribed.
The Member States that joined the EU in 2004, 2007 and 2013, after the euro was launched, did not meet the conditions for entry to the euro area at the time of their accession. Therefore, their Treaties of Accession allow them time to make the necessary adjustments.

Why so scared of the Euro, why is it such an issue? Surely its a natural path to follow, join the EU and join the Euro? Why is there such an effort to prove you don't have to?

[allmodcons]

Why so scared of the Euro, why is it such an issue? Surely its a natural path to follow, join the EU and join the Euro? Why is there such an effort to prove you don't have to?

I'm not 'scared' of anything and you are now deflecting. I was merely pointing out that Alex Bell is wrong and you are propagating a myth.

I'm not sure about the currency issue and accept that it's a problem the Yes movement is 'wrestling' with.

One thing's for sure though, an iScotland within the EU would not be forced to join the Euro (i.e. - other options are/would be available).

The reason there is an effort to prove that an iScotland wouldn't have to join the Euro is because opponents of Independence are peddling the myth that the Euro is the only option for EU member states which, as you now know, is not true.

[James310]

I'm not 'scared' of anything and you are now deflecting. I was merely pointing out that Alex Bell is wrong and you are propagating a myth.

I'm not sure about the currency issue and accept that it's a problem the Yes movement is 'wrestling' with.

One thing's for sure though, an iScotland within the EU would not be forced to join the Euro (i.e. - other options are/would be available).

I was not deflecting, just tired saying it over and over.

I can also quote EU Documents.

"Adopting the single currency is a crucial step in a Member State's economy'

A crucial step? One that nobody has to take apparently. Why not say:

"Adopting the single currency is kind of but not really a crucial step in a Member State's economy. Actually its not a crucial step at all, you don't have to"

And

Who can join and when?

All EU Member States , except Denmark and the United Kingdom, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area. To do this they must meet certain conditions known as 'convergence criteria"

You can interpret it in any way you wish. You choose to interpret it one way, I along with many others, choose to interpret another way.

[JeMeSouviens]

I was not deflecting, just tired saying it over and over.

I can also quote EU Documents.

"Adopting the single currency is a crucial step in a Member State's economy'

A crucial step? One that nobody has to take apparently. Why not say:

"Adopting the single currency is kind of but not really a crucial step in a Member State's economy. Actually its not a crucial step at all, you don't have to"

And

Who can join and when?

All EU Member States , except Denmark and the United Kingdom, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area. To do this they must meet certain conditions known as 'convergence criteria"

You can interpret it in any way you wish. You choose to interpret it one way, I along with many others, choose to interpret another way.

You’ve never explained why Sweden isn’t in the Eurozone. It’s subject to all the things you interpret as meaning they must be and yet ... they’re not. Amazing!

I used to think you were being disingenuous to deliberately mislead but actually you’re just not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?

Still, ctrl-c ctrl-v ...

[James310]

You’ve never explained why Sweden isn’t in the Eurozone. It’s subject to all the things you interpret as meaning they must be and yet ... they’re not. Amazing!

I used to think you were being disingenuous to deliberately mislead but actually you’re just not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?

Still, ctrl-c ctrl-v ...

Yawn. Please try harder to ignore, do us both a favour.

[Jack]

No, I don't need to prove or persuade anyone as I am not proposing significant change. My currency preference is no change at all, that's my solution. It's your sides job to tell us what the plan is and why they are confident it will work. If people don't have confidence in it then they won't be persuaded.

We don't know what your preference is though? Plus you never answered the question.

Can you tell us what the effect on Sterling will be when we, the UK leaves the EU a) with a deal, b) without a deal?

I might humbly suggest that's a more pressing issue than the currency Scotland may or may not use at sometime in the unspecified future.

Without the answer to a) or b) the question of a future Scottish currency is superfluous.

[allmodcons]

I was not deflecting, just tired saying it over and over.

I can also quote EU Documents.

"Adopting the single currency is a crucial step in a Member State's economy'

A crucial step? One that nobody has to take apparently. Why not say:

"Adopting the single currency is kind of but not really a crucial step in a Member State's economy. Actually its not a crucial step at all, you don't have to"

And

Who can join and when?

All EU Member States , except Denmark and the United Kingdom, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area. To do this they must meet certain conditions known as 'convergence criteria"

You can interpret it in any way you wish. You choose to interpret it one way, I along with many others, choose to interpret another way.

You're all over the place here. It's not about interpretation. There is NO requirement to join the Euro. Please just listen to the arguments instead of throwing in quotes you quite obviously don't understand. Part of the convergence criteria is membership of the ERM which is 100% voluntary. Just have the decency and grace to know when you're wrong. You'll get over it.

[James310]

Can you tell us what the effect on Sterling will be when we, the UK leaves the EU a) with a deal, b) without a deal?

I might humbly suggest that's a more pressing issue than the currency Scotland may or may not use at sometime in the unspecified future.

Without the answer to a) or b) the question of a future Scottish currency is superfluous.

I think the more clarity there is over any deal, the more likely it is that the pound will rise. No deal is likely to have opposite effect and pound will fall.

But your £100,000 mortgage remains £100,000 unless your having to exchange currency for your repayments.

[Mr Grieves]

I think the more clarity there is over any deal, the more likely it is that the pound will rise. No deal is likely to have opposite effect and pound will fall.

But your £100,000 mortgage remains £100,000 unless your having to exchange currency for your repayments.

So your £100000 mortgage will remain £100000 in an independent Scotland because we don't need to use the ******g €

[James310]

So your £100000 mortgage will remain £100000 in an independent Scotland because we don't need to use the ******g €

Eh no. What if we have a new currency, as is being proposed? You still need to pay back £100,000 and the Bank will want paid in £ sterling every month as they are now. But your now paid in new currency, so you will need to convert every time you make a repayment. What if the new currency has depreciated 10% against the £? Your mortgage payment just went up 10%. It might go the other way, but new currencies are not known for their strengths. The Bank have lent to you in £ sterling and will want paid back in £ sterling.

You happy to convert all your savings into the new currency as well? Its a risk, for some maybe a risk worth taking.

Fancy a pint next time your down in York or Newcastle? No problem, just convert your new currency in to £, hope the exchange rate is a good one.

[Jack]

I think the more clarity there is over any deal, the more likely it is that the pound will rise. No deal is likely to have opposite effect and pound will fall.

But your £100,000 mortgage remains £100,000 unless your having to exchange currency for your repayments.

You can no more think that than others saying the less clarity the more likely the pound will bomb.

In an orderly Brexit there is a plan for a transition period, by no means certain.

In an orderly Scottish independence there will be a transition during which time an independent Scotland would have the option to adopt a currency which best suited it's needs.

We'd all still have the same mortgage whatever the currency. Unless you know better and can point to a country getting independence where that's not been the case in the modern era that might provide a reasonable parallel.

[James310]

You can no more think that than others saying the less clarity the more likely the pound will bomb.

In an orderly Brexit there is a plan for a transition period, by no means certain.

In an orderly Scottish independence there will be a transition during which time an independent Scotland would have the option to adopt a currency which best suited it's needs.

We'd all still have the same mortgage whatever the currency. Unless you know better and can point to a country getting independence where that's not been the case in the modern era that might provide a reasonable parallel.

Well not if your mortgage is in £ sterling and Scotland has a new currency.

Lloyds Bank for example will not just agree to convert billions of pounds into a brand new currency on the first day Scotland adopts it. They will want paid back in the currency they lent it to you in.

[Mibbes Aye]

You're all over the place here. It's not about interpretation. There is NO requirement to join the Euro. Please just listen to the arguments instead of throwing in quotes you quite obviously don't understand. Part of the convergence criteria is membership of the ERM which is 100% voluntary. Just have the decency and grace to know when you're wrong. You'll get over it.

I don’t think you should throw accusations of lack of understanding when you seem on dodgy ground yourself.

All EU member states joining post-Maastricht are required to adopt the Euro. That is clear as can be from the European Commission’s website. At this stage the EU has not sought to enforce this but it doesn’t change the fact that the requirement is in the accession treaties.

Denmark and the UK are exceptions because they negotiated legally-binding agreements a long time ago (though Denmark is currently in the ERM I believe). There is no guarantee, arguably no chance that an independent Scotland would be given such leeway. And in fact, more than half the countries that have joined the EU in the last fifteen years now have the Euro in place.

This whole smokescreen about convergence criteria makes me laugh. The convergence criteria are things like showing you can keep inflation under control, showing you aren’t running up a huge deficit or national debt, showing there is price stability and that there aren’t excessive currency fluctuations.

These are things that would be essential for an independent Scotland to be safe and sustainable, not some wish list that we need to tick off to join the Euro, but hey, we don’t need to worry about them because we can always go with the groat, or stay with sterling :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

Well not if your mortgage is in £ sterling and Scotland has a new currency.

Lloyds Bank for example will not just agree to convert billions of pounds into a brand new currency on the first day Scotland adopts it. They will want paid back in the currency they lent it to you in.

I think any new currency would be pegged to sterling during a transition period to allow mortgages etc to be transferred to the new currency.
I’m pretty sure large banks will be lending in the new currency as well so transferring your mortgage over to it should be a simple process.
If one company doesn’t fancy working with the new Scottish pound then others will.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

I don’t think you should throw accusations of lack of understanding when you seem on dodgy ground yourself.

All EU member states joining post-Maastricht are required to adopt the Euro. That is clear as can be from the European Commission’s website. At this stage the EU has not sought to enforce this but it doesn’t change the fact that the requirement is in the accession treaties.

Denmark and the UK are exceptions because they negotiated legally-binding agreements a long time ago (though Denmark is currently in the ERM I believe). There is no guarantee, arguably no chance that an independent Scotland would be given such leeway. And in fact, more than half the countries that have joined the EU in the last fifteen years now have the Euro in place.

This whole smokescreen about convergence criteria makes me laugh. The convergence criteria are things like showing you can keep inflation under control, showing you aren’t running up a huge deficit or national debt, showing there is price stability and that there aren’t excessive currency fluctuations.

These are things that would be essential for an independent Scotland to be safe and sustainable, not some wish list that we need to tick off to join the Euro, but hey, we don’t need to worry about them because we can always go with the groat, or stay with sterling :rolleyes:

There would be no harm in joining the euro anyway.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I don’t think you should throw accusations of lack of understanding when you seem on dodgy ground yourself.

All EU member states joining post-Maastricht are required to adopt the Euro. That is clear as can be from the European Commission’s website. At this stage the EU has not sought to enforce this but it doesn’t change the fact that the requirement is in the accession treaties.

Denmark and the UK are exceptions because they negotiated legally-binding agreements a long time ago (though Denmark is currently in the ERM I believe). There is no guarantee, arguably no chance that an independent Scotland would be given such leeway. And in fact, more than half the countries that have joined the EU in the last fifteen years now have the Euro in place.

This whole smokescreen about convergence criteria makes me laugh. The convergence criteria are things like showing you can keep inflation under control, showing you aren’t running up a huge deficit or national debt, showing there is price stability and that there aren’t excessive currency fluctuations.

These are things that would be essential for an independent Scotland to be safe and sustainable, not some wish list that we need to tick off to join the Euro, but hey, we don’t need to worry about them because we can always go with the groat, or stay with sterling :rolleyes:

Taking a para at a time:

1. amc’s reading seems fine to me

2&3. correct, but the EU commission have stated they have no intention to enforce and the realpolitik post-Greece is that they are massively less likely to enforce than more likely.

4. agreed

5. let yourself down with “groat”

[James310]

I think any new currency would be pegged to sterling during a transition period to allow mortgages etc to be transferred to the new currency.
I’m pretty sure large banks will be lending in the new currency as well so transferring your mortgage over to it should be a simple process.
If one company doesn’t fancy working with the new Scottish pound then others will.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So is this a brand new currency on day 1 of Indy pegged to sterling? Where is the c£30BN to £300BN that has been estimated that is required in sterling currency reserves required for this coming from? We run a deficit at the moment remember. Massive public spending cuts? Borrow the money? Which is it?

We could do it on an unofficial capacity like such giants as the Marshall Islands and Pitcairn Islands, well known economic powerhouses.

How long would we be pegged against the £ for? A few years or longer? As soon as the pegging stops the risk returns of deprecation.

What if the banks say no, I lent you the money in £ sterling so you pay me back in £ sterling. They won't want billions of a brand new currency that could depreciate overnight on their balance sheets.

Lots of questions, it's not as simple and easy as pick a currency and off you go. I am sure whatever is picked we will get the honest truth of what it actually involves so we can then make an informed decision?

[JeMeSouviens]

There would be no harm in joining the euro anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are 2 problems with the Euro (and sterling come to that):

1. you lose the unilateral ability to print money/devalue your way out of a crisis.
2. you are vulnerable to the contagion effects of your partners (unofficial with £)

The answer to 1 is obviously don’t go fiscally mad. The answer to 2 is the Euro needs to ensure fiscal rules are signed up to. A post-Brexit UK with Corbyn at the helm might be a significantly risky prospect for sterlingisation.

It’s politically difficult because you are up against decades of British press Eurosceptic propaganda that targeted the Euro as part of the wider “war”.

[Mibbes Aye]

There would be no harm in joining the euro anyway.


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Agreed. Meeting the convergence criteria would be evidence of a stable economy. That’s got to be positive.

[Mibbes Aye]

Taking a para at a time:

1. amc’s reading seems fine to me

2&3. correct, but the EU commission have stated they have no intention to enforce and the realpolitik post-Greece is that they are massively less likely to enforce than more likely.

4. agreed

5. let yourself down with “groat”

I don’t see what the problem is with ‘groat’, it’s been used by posters of all ilks and hues on here and it’s not as if I was using it in a pejorative sense. Maybe a mite over-sensitive?

Anyway, it was more about having a nice piece of alliteration -‘go with the groat or stick with sterling’. That scanned better than ‘stick with sterling or go with a yet-to-be established national currency whose name may possibly be decided through a popular vote’

If it is, then I’ll be voting for ‘Groaty McGroatface’ :na na::greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I don’t see what the problem is with ‘groat’, it’s been used by posters of all ilks and hues on here and it’s not as if I was using it in a pejorative sense. Maybe a mite over-sensitive?

Anyway, it was more about having a nice piece of alliteration -‘go with the groat or stick with sterling’. That scanned better than ‘stick with sterling or go with a yet-to-be established national currency whose name may possibly be decided through a popular vote’

If it is, then I’ll be voting for ‘Groaty McGroatface’ :na na::greengrin

Ok, I assumed you were being pejorative so apols there. I must admit the alliteration is rather good, perhaps fold in “use the euro”?

[Mibbes Aye]

Ok, I assumed you were being pejorative so apols there. I must admit the alliteration is rather good, perhaps fold in “use the euro”?

I think we are wasted on here, we should be setting up our own marketing company :agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

I think we are wasted on here, we should be setting up our own marketing company :agree:

Sounds like my dream job. :greengrin

[Smartie]

"Bawbees are barry".

[jonty]

if the euro is mandatory, then why has the uk not been forced into adopting it?


Alternatively, when the UK (of England and Wales) look to rejoin in 10 years, do you think they'll be happy to adopt it?

Brexit - the pound killer.

[James310]

if the euro is mandatory, then why has the uk not been forced into adopting it?


Alternatively, when the UK (of England and Wales) look to rejoin in 10 years, do you think they'll be happy to adopt it?

Brexit - the pound killer.

"The United Kingdom has never sought to adopt the euro as its official currency for the duration of its membership of the European Union (EU), and secured an opt-out at the euro's creation via the Maastricht Treaty in 1992"

[Mibbes Aye]

if the euro is mandatory, then why has the uk not been forced into adopting it?


Alternatively, when the UK (of England and Wales) look to rejoin in 10 years, do you think they'll be happy to adopt it?

Brexit - the pound killer.

The UK secured a legally-binding agreement that they didn’t need to adopt the Euro. Its not that uncommon for nations to have certain opt-outs though I think the U.K. may have the most?

After Maastricht, the EU ruled that all acceding EU nations had to commit to joining the Euro, but to date they haven’t really enforced it. I suspect that is just realpolitik.

[James310]

Some interesting thoughts...wonder if the diehards will listen though. I do think Scottish Independence is now too much all about the SNP and the particular players in that party.

"If Angus Robertson's poll didn't cause nervousness in the independence movement it should have. It suggests that not only are we not winning, we're going backwards. And if that's right, it very strongly suggests we need to do things differently."

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/14067/robin-mcalpine-phase-three-independence-movement-will-get-us-there

[jonty]

The UK secured a legally-binding agreement that they didn’t need to adopt the Euro. Its not that uncommon for nations to have certain opt-outs though I think the U.K. may have the most?

After Maastricht, the EU ruled that all acceding EU nations had to commit to joining the Euro, but to date they haven’t really enforced it. I suspect that is just realpolitik.

I knew there was an opt-out - i just couldn't remember which one. As you have both kindly pointed out, it was Maastricht.

All opt-outs lost when England & Wales re-apply though :greengrin

I believe we have rather a lot of opt-outs negotiated over the years. We've always been the 'least' European of the gang.

[allmodcons]

I don’t think you should throw accusations of lack of understanding when you seem on dodgy ground yourself.

All EU member states joining post-Maastricht are required to adopt the Euro. That is clear as can be from the European Commission’s website. At this stage the EU has not sought to enforce this but it doesn’t change the fact that the requirement is in the accession treaties.

Denmark and the UK are exceptions because they negotiated legally-binding agreements a long time ago (though Denmark is currently in the ERM I believe). There is no guarantee, arguably no chance that an independent Scotland would be given such leeway. And in fact, more than half the countries that have joined the EU in the last fifteen years now have the Euro in place.

This whole smokescreen about convergence criteria makes me laugh. The convergence criteria are things like showing you can keep inflation under control, showing you aren’t running up a huge deficit or national debt, showing there is price stability and that there aren’t excessive currency fluctuations.

These are things that would be essential for an independent Scotland to be safe and sustainable, not some wish list that we need to tick off to join the Euro, but hey, we don’t need to worry about them because we can always go with the groat, or stay with sterling :rolleyes:

You think I'm on dodgy ground?

You've just picked up the baton from James310 and promptly dropped it. The European Commission couldn't make it clearer if they wanted to:-

1. Participation in ERM II is voluntary although, as one of the convergence criteria for entry to the euro area.
2. It is up to individual countries to calibrate their path towards the euro and no timetable is prescribed.

If participation in the ERM is voluntary how on earth can use of the euro be mandatory?

Furthermore, how can something be described as mandatory when no timetable is prescribed?

As I said earlier, opponents of Scottish Independence are peddling the myth that the Euro is the only option for EU member states in an effort to undermine the case for an iScotland and you, as someone who vehemently opposes Scottish Independence, are happy to perpetuate said myth.

On checking, there are 9 EU member states not currently using the euro. As examples, Sweden joined the EU in 1995 and some 24 years later are still using the Krona and then there's Hungary, who joined in 2004, and continue to use the Forint.

Of course, we all know that it'll be different for Scotland! Why (?) because it's a great narrative for Unionists.

[Moulin Yarns]

The UK secured a legally-binding agreement that they didn’t need to adopt the Euro. Its not that uncommon for nations to have certain opt-outs though I think the U.K. may have the most?

After Maastricht, the EU ruled that all acceding EU nations had to commit to joining the Euro, but to date they haven’t really enforced it. I suspect that is just realpolitik.

I gather that the government is trying to negotiate the largest opt out from the EU, and has been failing spectacularly.

[Mibbes Aye]

I gather that the government is trying to negotiate the largest opt out from the EU, and has been failing spectacularly.

:tee hee:

[Mibbes Aye]

You think I'm on dodgy ground?

You've just picked up the baton from James310 and promptly dropped it. The European Commission couldn't make it clearer if they wanted to:-

1. Participation in ERM II is voluntary although, as one of the convergence criteria for entry to the euro area.
2. It is up to individual countries to calibrate their path towards the euro and no timetable is prescribed.

If participation in the ERM is voluntary how on earth can use of the euro be mandatory?

Furthermore, how can something be described as mandatory when no timetable is prescribed?

As I said earlier, opponents of Scottish Independence are peddling the myth that the Euro is the only option for EU member states in an effort to undermine the case for an iScotland and you, as someone who vehemently opposes Scottish Independence, are happy to perpetuate said myth.

On checking, there are 9 EU member states not currently using the euro. As examples, Sweden joined the EU in 1995 and some 24 years later are still using the Krona and then there's Hungary, who joined in 2004, and continue to use the Forint.

Of course, we all know that it'll be different for Scotland! Why (?) because it's a great narrative for Unionists.




You ask how use of the Euro can be mandatory. I will leave it to the European Commission to explain.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/enlargement-euro-area_en

Admittedly, they haven’t been rushing to enforce it, but as I said earlier that’s down to realpolitik. In principle the EU idea needs a common currency. More importantly, it will be business who demand it eventually. Like the changes to daylight savings, a common currency between EU members is a business no-brainer (unless you have the sort of acute socio-cultural and political differences of a UK for example).

As for the rest of your post I think you suffer from seeing things too much in black and white. This leads you to make presumptions or post untruths. I don’t think I’ve ever posted on what a future currency would be and I’ve certainly never said an independent Scotland would be forced to join the Euro. I’m perpetuating no myths, merely stating the facts about the EU and the Euro.

Perhaps the bigger question is as follows - an independent Scotland joining the EU would be required to join the Euro as part of its accession treaty but as things stand, the EU is being pretty lax about timescales. Joining would mean meeting convergence criteria, which would indicate the economy was on a sound footing. As things stand I don’t think Scotland is close to meeting convergence criteria?

Does that not mean creating a new currency (which I’ve yet to hear anyone describe as anything other than a huge risk), or GBP? And GBP means surrendering fiscal sovereignty to the perfidious Albion doesn’t it? Which raises the question about whether independence is really about self-determination or rather just a heady mix of confused romanticism, a dose of unwarranted exceptionalism and a soupçon of resentment and grievance against the big, bad English.

[greenlex]

I'm happy with the €. It's saved me a fortune on unnecessary currency exchanges. I also pay less € than £ for a pint.
I think it’s worth noting that the pound has lost nearly one third of its value against the euro over the years since the euro was introduced. I can’t see a problem adopting it to be honest. In fact I don’t really care what we Scots would use for money as an independent country.

[James310]

I think it’s worth noting that the pound has lost nearly one third of its value against the euro over the years since the euro was introduced. I can’t see a problem adopting it to be honest. In fact I don’t really care what we Scots would use for money as an independent country.

You would care if it required massive spending cuts to implement it.

[Tornadoes70]

You would care if it required massive spending cuts to implement it.

Very quickly indeed folk would realise they'd been duped after their Scottish Pound, Groat, Bawbee whatever was worth far less than their previous UK pound was and that we were suddenly the small fish within a big pond that is the EU.

I don't think half of those so called 'scottish nationalists' on here care one jot about Scotland.

They seem more concerned about separation than actual Scotland.

Mon Labour.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Very quickly indeed folk would realise they'd been duped after their Scottish Pound, Groat, Bawbee whatever was worth far less than their previous UK pound was and that we were suddenly the small fish within a big pond that is the EU.

I don't think half of those so called 'scottish nationalists' on here care one jot about Scotland.

They seem more concerned about separation than actual Scotland.

Mon Labour.

Scottish Nationalists don't care about Scotland.

I love you dude.

[Tornadoes70]

Scottish Nationalists don't care about Scotland.

I love you dude.

I have no idea as to your thoughts or ideology upon Scottish separation from a 300 years or so Union so can't love you back politically but will as a hibs supporter.

[Tornadoes70]

That raises the question.

Why would Scottish folk actually want to separate from a small tight knit time served political union with our closest island neighbour's to a far away huge one that would mean Scotland was virtually powerless within it.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'm Scottish first and foremost and care deeply for our folk and urge folk to think pragmatically what they're being led into by those who refuse to make public their case for.

Mon the Cabbage and Scotland.

[Tornadoes70]

The next phase as per nationalism is that folk will begin to question - what exactly are we being led into voting for and who exactly is trying to lead us there?

The phase of snp/greens duping ordinary folk in absence of making a case for is over.

Make the case for or become snp/greens irrelevant.

Mon Labour!!!

[James310]

Scottish Nationalists don't care about Scotland.

I love you dude.

Are you comfortable with potentially a generation or more of austerity and you and your kids being worse off and having a lower standard of living, just to say you are independent? There is no economic case for it, the Growth Commission report hinted at the future. If that's what you call Independence and that's what you want then fair enough.

"You can then add that the Growth Commission vision would prevent the government from changing tax and actually embed the UK tax code, would hand corporation tax and bank regulation policy to the UK and so on.

Even welfare reform would be impossible – with a public sector shrinking as a proportion of the economy, the I, Daniel Blake social security system would have to be left pretty well as is for another generation. Such is the imperative of austerity. Oh, and we wouldn't be allowed back in the EU or even the EEA while we were Sterlingised – no central bank you see"

Does the above sound like Independence dream you desire?

[JeMeSouviens]

Are you comfortable with potentially a generation or more of austerity and you and your kids being worse off and having a lower standard of living, just to say you are independent? There is no economic case for it, the Growth Commission report hinted at the future. If that's what you call Independence and that's what you want then fair enough.

"You can then add that the Growth Commission vision would prevent the government from changing tax and actually embed the UK tax code, would hand corporation tax and bank regulation policy to the UK and so on.

Even welfare reform would be impossible – with a public sector shrinking as a proportion of the economy, the I, Daniel Blake social security system would have to be left pretty well as is for another generation. Such is the imperative of austerity. Oh, and we wouldn't be allowed back in the EU or even the EEA while we were Sterlingised – no central bank you see"

Does the above sound like Independence dream you desire?

Why are you, a Tory, quoting a radical left critique when you would recoil in horror from any of the policies these guys would like to implement?

The GC is a manifesto for cautious centrist independence. It doesn’t even recommend austerity, let alone a “generation or more”. And the idea that the SNP would aim for a policy that kept us outside the EEA is so ludicrous words can barely describe it.

Maybe you need to up your googling game? Or, radical suggestion, actually construct your own argument for once? Go on, be brave.

[The Modfather]

Are you comfortable with potentially a generation or more of austerity and you and your kids being worse off and having a lower standard of living, just to say you are independent? There is no economic case for it, the Growth Commission report hinted at the future. If that's what you call Independence and that's what you want then fair enough.

"You can then add that the Growth Commission vision would prevent the government from changing tax and actually embed the UK tax code, would hand corporation tax and bank regulation policy to the UK and so on.

Even welfare reform would be impossible – with a public sector shrinking as a proportion of the economy, the I, Daniel Blake social security system would have to be left pretty well as is for another generation. Such is the imperative of austerity. Oh, and we wouldn't be allowed back in the EU or even the EEA while we were Sterlingised – no central bank you see"

Does the above sound like Independence dream you desire?

For balance, any insight into what a generations worth of post Brexit Britain might be like?

[James310]

For balance, any insight into what a generations worth of post Brexit Britain might be like?

We will be worse off, its a terrible idea. Adding Independence into the mix will compound an already bad situation.

[James310]

Why are you, a Tory, quoting a radical left critique when you would recoil in horror from any of the policies these guys would like to implement?

The GC is a manifesto for cautious centrist independence. It doesn’t even recommend austerity, let alone a “generation or more”. And the idea that the SNP would aim for a policy that kept us outside the EEA is so ludicrous words can barely describe it.

Maybe you need to up your googling game? Or, radical suggestion, actually construct your own argument for once? Go on, be brave.

You have fallen nicely into the trap that the SNP want you to fall into about the GC not meaning austerity. If it smells like austerity, looks like austerity then the chances are it's austerity. Shhh if we keep telling people it's not austerity but a fiscal tightening of the belts they will never know.

It is more than a few people you know that say this, are they all wrong and your right?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/15/independent-scotland-austerity-snp-ifs-institute-fiscal-studies


I can quote whoever I like thanks and will continue to do so. Here is a radical idea, just don't read it.

I thought after the failure last time it was supposed to be about honesty and the Nats being honest about what Independence actually means. Does not feel like that. The polls show support is falling not rising for Independence, which when you consider what has happened the last few years is pretty shocking.

[JeMeSouviens]

You have fallen nicely into the trap that the SNP want you to fall into about the GC not meaning austerity. If it smells like austerity, looks like austerity then the chances are it's austerity. Shhh if we keep telling people it's not austerity but a fiscal tightening of the belts they will never know.

It is more than a few people you know that say this, are they all wrong and your right?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/15/independent-scotland-austerity-snp-ifs-institute-fiscal-studies


I can quote whoever I like thanks and will continue to do so. Here is a radical idea, just don't read it.

I thought after the failure last time it was supposed to be about honesty and the Nats being honest about what Independence actually means. Does not feel like that. The polls show support is falling not rising for Independence, which when you consider what has happened the last few years is pretty shocking.

They really don’t show that. Just another blatant lie you hope nobody will be bothered to check.

[JeMeSouviens]

You have fallen nicely into the trap that the SNP want you to fall into about the GC not meaning austerity. If it smells like austerity, looks like austerity then the chances are it's austerity. Shhh if we keep telling people it's not austerity but a fiscal tightening of the belts they will never know.

It is more than a few people you know that say this, are they all wrong and your right?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/15/independent-scotland-austerity-snp-ifs-institute-fiscal-studies


I can quote whoever I like thanks and will continue to do so. Here is a radical idea, just don't read it.

I thought after the failure last time it was supposed to be about honesty and the Nats being honest about what Independence actually means. Does not feel like that. The polls show support is falling not rising for Independence, which when you consider what has happened the last few years is pretty shocking.

The report the article you linked is based on commends the GC for its honest assessment. You literally just contradicted your own evidence.

It would be much more pleasant to ignore you but if nobody calls out your constant stream of hyperbolic exaggeration and downright lies then they might actually be believed.

[James310]

The report the article you linked is based on commends the GC for its honest assessment. You literally just contradicted your own evidence.

It would be much more pleasant to ignore you but if nobody calls out your constant stream of hyperbolic exaggeration and downright lies then they might actually be believed.

No, I was saying you need to be more honest.

It's only lies in your mind because you don't believe it to be true. You don't think the GC Report is advocating austerity and that's fair enough, but I do along with many others who are much more qualified than I am. Are we all therfore lying? Is it a big plot to spread lies? Is the economist at the Institute of Fiscal Studies lying to us all? Or does he have a different interpretation from you? Just because someone has a different opinion does not make them a liar.

You will interpret what you want and I will want I want but I don't accuse you of lying. Its your opinion and perspective of things, I disagree with it though.

There is a tendency amongst a number of nationalists who seem to think their opinion and perspective is fact, and if you don't agree then your wrong and in this case called a liar. Afraid your falling more and more into that bracket.

[Moulin Yarns]

That raises the question.

Why would Scottish folk actually want to separate from a small tight knit time served political union with our closest island neighbour's to a far away huge one that would mean Scotland was virtually powerless within it.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'm Scottish first and foremost and care deeply for our folk and urge folk to think pragmatically what they're being led into by those who refuse to make public their case for.

Mon the Cabbage and Scotland.

All of that will pale into insignificance when we become the 51st State. :wink:


https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/11/09/britain-our-51ststate-better-that-it-become-gasp-a-u-s-territory/

[ronaldo7]

Why so scared of the Euro, why is it such an issue? Surely its a natural path to follow, join the EU and join the Euro? Why is there such an effort to prove you don't have to?

Why such an effort to prove you do?

However, as you've agreed it's all lies, we can change tack, and talk about, Thatcher's austerity, or the austerity we're currently living through.

You seem quite happy with austerity, when it's overseen by London.

You vote for their policies.

[Ozyhibby]

We will be worse off, its a terrible idea. Adding Independence into the mix will compound an already bad situation.

Adding? I’m pretty sure SNP policy would be swapping one for the other. If we become independent, we will be in the EU.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Why such an effort to prove you do?

However, as you've agreed it's all lies, we can change tack, and talk about, Thatcher's austerity, or the austerity we're currently living through.

You seem quite happy with austerity, when it's overseen by London.

You vote for their policies.

I disagree with the interpretation that you don't commit to the Euro, many people say the same thing. Are they all liars? Is the EU factsheet that
Mibbes Aye linked to all lies?


So if there is another IndyRef you will of course be happy to chuck your principles and beliefs in the bin and vote for more and likely worse austerity? You really don't like it but you would be at ease to vote for it. Is it Indy at any cost?

"So the next time someone tells you that austerity is an 'optional extra' in the Growth Commission or that it would 'only be ten years', they've not understood the report. We would emphatically NOT be out of special measures in ten years (as the Growth Commission authors are admitting privately). This is a generation of banker-run Scotland with the austerity to go with it."

A banker run Scotland, that must be your nightmare! But you would vote for it Yea?

[ronaldo7]

I disagree with the interpretation that you don't commit to the Euro, many people say the same thing. Are they all liars? Is the EU factsheet that
Mibbes Aye linked to all lies?


So if there is another IndyRef you will of course be happy to chuck your principles and beliefs in the bin and vote for more and likely worse austerity? You really don't like it but you would be at ease to vote for it. Is it Indy at any cost?

"So the next time someone tells you that austerity is an 'optional extra' in the Growth Commission or that it would 'only be ten years', they've not understood the report. We would emphatically NOT be out of special measures in ten years (as the Growth Commission authors are admitting privately). This is a generation of banker-run Scotland with the austerity to go with it."

You've not answered my question, again. Seems to be a pattern forming here. Maybe you should ask, John for some help.

You've also agreed it's all lies on this thread, or were you telling lies?

Austerity, I've had it throughout my working life, under Thatcher, and now, May.

I think we could do things better as an independent nation, and only have to look at the evidence of other small independent nations close to our shores.

I respect that you want to continue with the status quo of austerity by London, that's up to you. I think your fast becoming a minority in our county.

Tick tock as they used to say.

[James310]

You've not answered my question, again. Seems to be a pattern forming here. Maybe you should ask, John for some help.

You've also agreed it's all lies on this thread, or were you telling lies?

Austerity, I've had it throughout my working life, under Thatcher, and now, May.

I think we could do things better as an independent nation, and only have to look at the evidence of other small independent nations close to our shores.

I respect that you want to continue with the status quo of austerity by London, that's up to you. I think your fast becoming a minority in our county.

Tick tock as they used to say.

So a different and Scottish kind of austerity your OK with, does it have a please and thank you after it. 😂

Tick tock indeed. Let's see what happens in next few months and then Nicola Sturgeon can reveal her grand plan, that's of course if she is still in power when the details of the Alex Salmond case and potential cover up come to light.

Hope she has not deleted the evidence!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47812531

[Smartie]

So a different and Scottish kind of austerity your OK with, does it have a please and thank you after it. 😂

Tick tock indeed. Let's see what happens in next few months and then Nicola Sturgeon can reveal her grand plan, that's of course if she is still in power when the details of the Alex Salmond case and potential cover up come to light.

Hope she has not deleted the evidence!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47812531

Austerity as a means to an end I think many of us could get on board with for a while.

Austerity as a means to prop up a failing UK economy that suits a small number quite nicely but that has seen living standards not improve for many people for decades is another.

We know what the UK can offer - sometimes in the past it has undoubtedly been our best option and many still think so, as is their right.

I do think that times are changing though, and it will be interesting to see what the next 4 years bring. I'm off out with my mates from Uni today who I haven't seen for years. I suspect we're all in favour of independence these days in spite of none of us being from nationalist stronghold backgrounds, and in spite of the fact that when we were at Uni in the 90s I'd have been the only one who would have remotely entertained the notion.

[Ozyhibby]

Austerity as a means to an end I think many of us could get on board with for a while.

Austerity as a means to prop up a failing UK economy that suits a small number quite nicely but that has seen living standards not improve for many people for decades is another.

We know what the UK can offer - sometimes in the past it has undoubtedly been our best option and many still think so, as is their right.

I do think that times are changing though, and it will be interesting to see what the next 4 years bring. I'm off out with my mates from Uni today who I haven't seen for years. I suspect we're all in favour of independence these days in spite of none of us being from nationalist stronghold backgrounds, and in spite of the fact that when we were at Uni in the 90s I'd have been the only one who would have remotely entertained the notion.

Don’t accept the premise. There is no hard evidence that austerity is a consequence of independence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Don’t accept the premise. There is no hard evidence that austerity is a consequence of independence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few pages back you said a new currency would be pegged to sterling. I asked where the circa £30BN to £300BN of sterling reserves was coming from to pay for the that? Public spending cuts? Well that's austerity. Borrowing the money? The repayments on that would mean guess what...spending cuts.

You also said no harm in joining the Euro. The convergence criteria means guess what, reducing our deficit which means... You get the picture.

Keep the pound then? OK if Independence means to you giving the BoE complete control over all monetary policy and setting interest rates etc.
Is that your definition of Independence?

A bit of honesty is required. At least Smartie was willing to disclose if austerity is required then he may be on board with that.

[Tornadoes70]

Whatever political colour, for or against whatever issue, lets not forget we're all Hibernian supporters and lets put the political differences aside for the moment and hope that we beat the yams today.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

:flag:

[Tornadoes70]

Whatever political colour, for or against whatever issue, lets not forget we're all Hibernian supporters and lets put the political differences aside for the moment and hope that we beat the yams today.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

:flag:

Perceptive words indeed sir.

Yaaasss

Great comeback from the Hi bees.

:greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

Perceptive words indeed sir.

Yaaasss

Great comeback from the Hi bees.

:greengrin

We'd have won 3-1 if Scotland was independent :-)

[Moulin Yarns]

Perceptive words indeed sir.

Yaaasss

Great comeback from the Hi bees.

:greengrin

Christ almighty, resorting to talking to yourself on an online forum is truly sad.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Christ almighty, resorting to talking to yourself on an online forum is truly sad.

Tbf some slack should be given after what has passed today.
I can't stop smiling and probably look like I'm tuned to the moon 😁😁

[Tornadoes70]

Christ almighty, resorting to talking to yourself on an online forum is truly sad.


No sadness whatsoever mate. Extremely happy here.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Glory Lurker]

We are all Hibees. And that is just flippin barrie.

[JeMeSouviens]

No, I was saying you need to be more honest.

It's only lies in your mind because you don't believe it to be true. You don't think the GC Report is advocating austerity and that's fair enough, but I do along with many others who are much more qualified than I am. Are we all therfore lying? Is it a big plot to spread lies? Is the economist at the Institute of Fiscal Studies lying to us all? Or does he have a different interpretation from you? Just because someone has a different opinion does not make them a liar.

You will interpret what you want and I will want I want but I don't accuse you of lying. Its your opinion and perspective of things, I disagree with it though.

There is a tendency amongst a number of nationalists who seem to think their opinion and perspective is fact, and if you don't agree then your wrong and in this case called a liar. Afraid your falling more and more into that bracket.

There has been no significant movement in indy polling since the ref. If anything, recent movement has been marginally to Yes. To state otherwise is not an interpretation, it’s a brass necked bare faced out and out lie.

[Tornadoes70]

Tbf some slack should be given after what has passed today.
I can't stop smiling and probably look like I'm tuned to the moon 😁😁

:agree:

Hopefully some very merry posts from Hi bees on hibs.net tonight after celebrating a famous win at the piggery.

[hibsbollah]

Christ almighty, resorting to talking to yourself on an online forum is truly sad.

That's a really pathetic response. He's joking and having a bit of fun.

[Callum_62]

I disagree with the interpretation that you don't commit to the Euro, many people say the same thing. Are they all liars? Is the EU factsheet that
Mibbes Aye linked to all lies?



I seen some Swedish "cabinet minister" on telly doing a live cross the other day

He said Sweden will never join the Euro

[Tornadoes70]

That's a really pathetic response. He's joking and having a bit of fun.

I was indeed mate. Still on a natural high just now typing this as will be the case with the vast majority of Hi bees albeit some will be well on the way to being well refreshed by now as I will be later on tonight. Winning at the piggery brings with it a certain sense of enjoyment.

:greengrin

Mon the Cabbage!!!

:flag:

[JeMeSouviens]

I seen some Swedish "cabinet minister" on telly doing a live cross the other day

He said Sweden will never join the Euro

That’s just his interpretation though. :rolleyes:

[greenlex]

Very quickly indeed folk would realise they'd been duped after their Scottish Pound, Groat, Bawbee whatever was worth far less than their previous UK pound was and that we were suddenly the small fish within a big pond that is the EU.

I don't think half of those so called 'scottish nationalists' on here care one jot about Scotland.

They seem more concerned about separation than actual Scotland.

Mon Labour.
If we had been independent and adopted the Euro in 1999 we would be nearly a third better off. I know it wasn’t you who mentioned Austerity but I do have to laugh. A generation of Austerity? We are 11 years on the bounce now with the illusion it is to get the country into the black. We owe billions more now than 11 years ago whilst the rich are protected and thrive under this glorious Political Union.
Im am not an SNP supporter but am a believer in Scottish Nationalism. I wish Scottish labour ( the branch office) would get its arse in gear and get behind the inevitable.
Happy to take my chances.

[allmodcons]

You ask how use of the Euro can be mandatory. I will leave it to the European Commission to explain.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/enlargement-euro-area_en

Admittedly, they haven’t been rushing to enforce it, but as I said earlier that’s down to realpolitik. In principle the EU idea needs a common currency. More importantly, it will be business who demand it eventually. Like the changes to daylight savings, a common currency between EU members is a business no-brainer (unless you have the sort of acute socio-cultural and political differences of a UK for example).

Your link explains nothing. On the same website the EC state that "the treaty does not specify a particular timetable for joining the euro area but leaves it to member states to develop their own strategies for meeting the condition of euro adoption". Call it realpolitik if you like but there is an acceptance by the EC that 'enforcing' adoption of the euro isn't practical. Why do you think Sweden haven't joined in 24 years of being a member?

As for the rest of your post I think you suffer from seeing things too much in black and white. This leads you to make presumptions or post untruths. I don’t think I’ve ever posted on what a future currency would be and I’ve certainly never said an independent Scotland would be forced to join the Euro. I’m perpetuating no myths, merely stating the facts about the EU and the Euro.

First point I'd like to make is that I 'suffer' from seeing things in green and white not black and white! Where have a posted an untruth and are you not arguing here and now that an independent Scotland would be forced to join the euro? This, when I think you know that Scotland could join the EU and retain its own currency for as long as it wants to. The issue is more complex than you are willing to admit and, for me, you are the one seeing things in black and white.

Perhaps the bigger question is as follows - an independent Scotland joining the EU would be required to join the Euro as part of its accession treaty but as things stand, the EU is being pretty lax about timescales. Joining would mean meeting convergence criteria, which would indicate the economy was on a sound footing. As things stand I don’t think Scotland is close to meeting convergence criteria?

An argument for another day perhaps, but one thing is for sure the Scottish economy is where it is as part of the Union. Putting that to one side and assuming your question around the performance of the Scottish economy is based on the published GERS figures, I've long argued that GERS significantly overstates the Scottish Government deficit, defence spending being a case in point.

Does that not mean creating a new currency (which I’ve yet to hear anyone describe as anything other than a huge risk), or GBP? And GBP means surrendering fiscal sovereignty to the perfidious Albion doesn’t it? Which raises the question about whether independence is really about self-determination or rather just a heady mix of confused romanticism, a dose of unwarranted exceptionalism and a soupçon of resentment and grievance against the big, bad English.

Now that we've established that an Independent Scotland in the EU wouldn't have to adopt the euro :greengrin I have to say that the currency issue is the most vexing for me as a supporter of Scottish Independence. IMO, the best option is our own currency supported by our own central bank, shadowing the pound in its informative years before being reassessed as a Government, working in best interests of Scotland, develops an industrial and economic strategy that suits us.


I'll not pass comment on your use of the words romanticism and grievance to describe my politics. Suffice to say when you repeat something ad nauseam it's just tiresome and aggravating.

On a more conciliatory note, can we agree that today's victory at Tynecastle was something very special :agree:

[Fife-Hibee]

Any other country in the world under these circumstances would be long gone out of this political "union".

But we're not any other country. We're a country full of odd balls who are unquestionably convinced that Scotlands best interests are served from far right elitists in London. Convinced that their own country controlling it's own destiny and affairs could only somehow be worse, when every other example world wide would suggest otherwise.

It's absolutely jaw dropping that in 2019, we're still being dictated to by people we don't elect in London, overseen by an unelected monarchy with the power to do whatever they see fit if they chose to do so.

It's staggering, yet so many people still don't get it, or see the problem with it.

[marinello59]

Any other country in the world under these circumstances would be long gone out of this political "union".

But we're not any other country. We're a country full of odd balls who are unquestionably convinced that Scotlands best interests are served from far right elitists in London. Convinced that their own country controlling it's own destiny and affairs could only somehow be worse, when every other example world wide would suggest otherwise.

It's absolutely jaw dropping that in 2019, we're still being dictated to by people we don't elect in London, overseen by an unelected monarchy with the power to do whatever they see fit if they chose to do so.

It's staggering, yet so many people still don't get it, or see the problem with it.

You really do have a low opinion of your fellow Scots don’t you?
Now you are back are you going to explain your people like me comment at last or are you going to run off and hide again?

[allmodcons]

Any other country in the world under these circumstances would be long gone out of this political "union".

But we're not any other country. We're a country full of odd balls who are unquestionably convinced that Scotlands best interests are served from far right elitists in London. Convinced that their own country controlling it's own destiny and affairs could only somehow be worse, when every other example world wide would suggest otherwise.

It's absolutely jaw dropping that in 2019, we're still being dictated to by people we don't elect in London, overseen by an unelected monarchy with the power to do whatever they see fit if they chose to do so.

It's staggering, yet so many people still don't get it, or see the problem with it.


You really do have a low opinion of your fellow Scots don’t you?
Now you are back are you going to explain your people like me comment at last or are you going to run off and hide again?

As much as I agree with the sentiment of your post Fife I do think you have to watch some of the rhetoric. There are some real welts on both sides of the debate but suggesting that "we're a country of oddballs" won't do anything to help win over those who voted 'No' in 2014 and may consider voting 'Yes' if, and when, another opportunity arises.

[James310]

As much as I agree with the sentiment of your post Fife I do think you have to watch some of the rhetoric. There are some real welts on both sides of the debate but suggesting that "we're a country of oddballs" won't do anything to help win over those who voted 'No' in 2014 and may consider voting 'Yes' if, and when, another opportunity arises.

Well I am off to fly the Catalonia flag from a bridge on the M8 so read into that what you want.

[James310]

Ian Blackford makes tidy wee sum from his Chairmanship of the Golden Trust. £3,000 a month for 32 hours work a year, not bad if you can get it. Over a grand an hour. Those arms companies are paying big dividends I heard.

Yes this is a dig, yes I know many Tory politicians will be profiteering as well probably 10 times but to me it's more hypocrisy. A lot of politicians are the same, the pedestal that some SNP politicians are put on are really not worthy of it. Blackford is very part of the establishment, he worked in Investment Banking for years. Actually he would make a great Tory.

[Jack]

Ian Blackford makes tidy wee sum from his Chairmanship of the Golden Trust. £3,000 a month for 32 hours work a year, not bad if you can get it. Over a grand an hour. Those arms companies are paying big dividends I heard.

Yes this is a dig, yes I know many Tory politicians will be profiteering as well probably 10 times but to me it's more hypocrisy. A lot of politicians are the same, the pedestal that some SNP politicians are put on are really not worthy of it. Blackford is very part of the establishment, he worked in Investment Banking for years. Actually he would make a great Tory.

I can't speak for everyone but I don't have an issue MPs having multiple paid positions so long as they don't impinge on their political role.

That would be where they cannot spend sufficient time carrying out the role but more particularly where the MPs may be influenced to vote a particular way for personal gain, like the 130 odd Tory MPs that would profit from the privatisation of the NHS or the others desperate to see Brexit through for taxation reasons.

I don't see Ian Blackfords role crossing any such box. Can you give an example of where it has or might do?

[James310]

I can't speak for everyone but I don't have an issue MPs having multiple paid positions so long as they don't impinge on their political role.

That would be where they cannot spend sufficient time carrying out the role but more particularly where the MPs may be influenced to vote a particular way for personal gain, like the 130 odd Tory MPs that would profit from the privatisation of the NHS or the others desperate to see Brexit through for taxation reasons.

I don't see Ian Blackfords role crossing any such box. Can you give an example of where it has or might do?

Do you think it's hypocrisy to critsise the government for selling arms to Saudi Arabia while at the same time being paid by an investment trust that profits from companies selling arms to Saudi Arabia?

As for the others then no it should not be allowed that MPs vote for laws that they may directly profit from, but how would you stop it? Where do you draw the line. We will all have investments in our pension pots that I am sure you may not be comfortable with.

[Jack]

Do you think it's hypocrisy to critsise the government for selling arms to Saudi Arabia while at the same time being paid by an investment trust that profits from companies selling arms to Saudi Arabia?

As for the others then no it should not be allowed that MPs vote for laws that they may directly profit from, but how would you stop it? Where do you draw the line. We will all have investments in our pension pots that I am sure you may not be comfortable with.

The first part is a different discussion.

As for the second where there's a will there's a way and it wouldn't be that difficult. If the MP or their immediate family stand to gain financially they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Does anyone know where their pension investments are to that detail? I was given a broad indication of various things but never knew which individual companies.

[Fife-Hibee]

As much as I agree with the sentiment of your post Fife I do think you have to watch some of the rhetoric. There are some real welts on both sides of the debate but suggesting that "we're a country of oddballs" won't do anything to help win over those who voted 'No' in 2014 and may consider voting 'Yes' if, and when, another opportunity arises.

You can't win them over. If none of the events that have unfolded over the past several years is enough to win them over, then absolutely nothing ever will.

The UK doesn't have a foot to stand on. But that doesn't matter. Good old British patriotism and loyalism will always be there to save the day.

[marinello59]

You can't win them over. If none of the events that have unfolded over the past several years is enough to win them over, then absolutely nothing ever will.

The UK doesn't have a foot to stand on. But that doesn't matter. Good old British patriotism and loyalism will always be there to save the day.

Again.
Explain your people like me remark or are you going to take your normal gutless course of action when challenged, run away and hide?

[Fife-Hibee]

Again.
Explain your people like me remark or are you going to take your normal gutless course of action when challenged, run away and hide?

What's gutless is somebody endlessly harping on about a comment made over a month ago which didn't really say all that much. Grow up.

[marinello59]

What's gutless is somebody endlessly harping on about a comment made over a month ago which didn't really say all that much. Grow up.

You repeatedly ignored my request for clarification, then ran away and hid. You could always respond now or continue to lack the decency to do so. It’s not just on that point you have done it, there have been several threads you have abandoned when asked to back up your rants with facts. So please enlighten me at last or can we all conclude you are nothing more than a troll?

[Fife-Hibee]

You repeatedly ignored my request for clarification, then ran away and hid. You could always respond now or continue to lack the decency to do so. It’s not just on that point you have done it, there have been several threads you have abandoned when asked to back up your rants with facts. So please enlighten me at last or can we all conclude you are nothing more than a troll?

If i'm the one trolling, then why do you insist on pretending that you have no understanding about what I meant?

Only a child holds onto such a low level grudge. I didn't run away or hide, I just refuse to be dragged down to such a ridiculous level of pettiness.

[marinello59]

If i'm the one trolling, then why do you insist on pretending that you have no understanding about what I meant?

Only a child holds onto such a low level grudge. I didn't run away or hide, I just refuse to be dragged down to such a ridiculous level of pettiness.
You never explained what you meant. If I had understood then I wouldn’t have asked. Several other posters also asked you to explain and you claimed you had when you hadn’t. It’s not a grudge, there’s bothing personal, I’m sure you are thoroughly likeable in real life. You can’t go hiding every time you are challenged on something here though.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ian Blackford makes tidy wee sum from his Chairmanship of the Golden Trust. £3,000 a month for 32 hours work a year, not bad if you can get it. Over a grand an hour. Those arms companies are paying big dividends I heard.

Yes this is a dig, yes I know many Tory politicians will be profiteering as well probably 10 times but to me it's more hypocrisy. A lot of politicians are the same, the pedestal that some SNP politicians are put on are really not worthy of it. Blackford is very part of the establishment, he worked in Investment Banking for years. Actually he would make a great Tory.

Just so people are clear what this means:

- Golden Charter Trust sells funeral plans
- Ian Blackford is on their board of trustees, effectively an oversight committee for the operation. All operations set up as Trusts (charities etc) have something similar
- GCT invests money in a wide range of financial products via various investment firms - https://www.goldenchartertrust.co.uk/investment-managers/
- one of the funds that one of these investment firms has bought into on the GCT's behalf holds shares in some major UK defence companies, BAe, Raytheon and the likes

You would find the same sort of links looking into practically any investment fund, pension scheme etc. etc.

For a charge of hypocrisy to have any sort of actual meaning here, Blackford would have to have advocated that the UK should have no defence industry and that nobody should ever hold shares in defence related companies.

In short, yet another pathetic smear. :rolleyes:

[Fife-Hibee]

You never explained what you meant. If I had understood then I wouldn’t have asked. Several other posters also asked you to explain and you claimed you had when you hadn’t. It’s not a grudge, there’s bothing personal, I’m sure you are thoroughly likeable in real life. You can’t go hiding every time you are challenged on something here though.

All I meant was the type of people who will always ultimately make the same decision, despite circumstances and reason suggesting that they should perhaps make a different one. It wasn't intended to be aimed at you personally. Just people who are like this in general.

[marinello59]

All I meant was the type of people who will always ultimately make the same decision, despite circumstances and reason suggesting that they should perhaps make a different one. It wasn't intended to be aimed at you personally. Just people who are like this in general.

Ok, thanks for that.
I’m not so sure that describes me politically but it does cover my approach to renewing my season ticket over the years.

[McD]

All I meant was the type of people who will always ultimately make the same decision, despite circumstances and reason suggesting that they should perhaps make a different one. It wasn't intended to be aimed at you personally. Just people who are like this in general.


How can it not be aimed at M59 personally when you said “people like you” - it’s difficult to see how it could be taken in any other way except aimed directly

[marinello59]

How can it not be aimed at M59 personally when you said “people like you” - it’s difficult to see how it could be taken in any other way except aimed directly

I asked for an explanation today , he gave one, I’m happy with that.
I wouldn’t like to see Fife feel that he was being hounded put. Agree with his posts or not there is no doubting his passion.

[James310]

Some further analysis on the currency issue.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/14079/richard-murphy-dont-put-london-bankers-charge-scotlands-independence-reply-derek

"Here the case is simple. It is whether or not Scotland could best make the decisions it will have to take on issues such as tax, borrowing, spending, investment and maintaining its exchange rate in its own best interests if it was to use sterling as its currency. The answer is unambiguously that it could not."

"There is only one way to solve these crippling economic issues. And that is for Scotland to have its own currency on day one of its independent existence. And don’t be deceived by any counter claims: the euro is a disaster, as all economists know, whilst just four countries in the world use the policy Mackay supports: and Ecuador, Lichtenstein, Panama and Montenegro are not the economic, social and forward looking power houses an independent Scotland will want to be. There’s good reason why no one else does what Mackay is proposing: it’s because it does not work."

"But this is not the worst of the problems. These are to be found in political economy. Economics looks at the allocation of resources in the world as if markets resolve this issue. Political economy looks at how resources are allocated and assumes that power is the key issue in determining outcomes. And at this level, for Scotland to use sterling would be a disaster.

At the most basic level this decision would leave control in London. What then is independence for?"

[grunt]

Some further analysis on the currency issue. Richard Murphy. A somewhat Marmite spokesman on tax and political economics. Sad that he made his fortune by setting up his Trivial Pursuits business in tax efficient Ireland before seeing the light and becoming a fiery critic of tax avoidance. Oops. His views are occasionally worth reading.

[JeMeSouviens]

Some further analysis on the currency issue.


This is the same Richard Murphy credited with the ideas behind "Corbynomics" and who has been the subject of an endless stream of Unionist criticism over his contesting the GERS figures and methodologies.

So, there we have it, James310 believes so passionately in the British state that he would quote from literally any source, no matter how opposed to his fundamental views on everything else, if he thinks there's an anti-independence slant to be put on it.

[ronaldo7]

This is the same Richard Murphy credited with the ideas behind "Corbynomics" and who has been the subject of an endless stream of Unionist criticism over his contesting the GERS figures and methodologies.

So, there we have it, James310 believes so passionately in the British state that he would quote from literally any source, no matter how opposed to his fundamental views on everything else, if he thinks there's an anti-independence slant to be put on it.

You mean he doesn't really care, as long as it's anti independence. Well blow me. 😂

[James310]

I will review each piece of analysis on it's own merits. We have been debating currency and low and behold its a piece on currency. No surprise the usual suspects feel aggrieved, means I am doing something right.

[JeMeSouviens]

I will review each piece of analysis on it's own merits. We have been debating currency and low and behold its a piece on currency. No surprise the usual suspects feel aggrieved, means I am doing something right.

Debating is where people exchange their ideas.

Cutting’n’pasteing, not so much.

[James310]

Debating is where people exchange their ideas.

Cutting’n’pasteing, not so much.

It's my 'wings' period. (not the bodyform type)

[JeMeSouviens]

It's my 'wings' period. (not the bodyform type)

Actually I think Richard Murphy has been a Wings contributor, so you’re not wrong.

[allmodcons]

You can't win them over. If none of the events that have unfolded over the past several years is enough to win them over, then absolutely nothing ever will.

The UK doesn't have a foot to stand on. But that doesn't matter. Good old British patriotism and loyalism will always be there to save the day.

By that logic I can only presume that you've given up on the case for Scottish Independence?

If we can't convince a portion 'No' voters to change their minds we've no chance. For what it's worth, there have been some fairly high profile individuals who've switched from 'No' to 'Yes' in the last couple of years.

[Jack]

Do you think it's hypocrisy to critsise the government for selling arms to Saudi Arabia while at the same time being paid by an investment trust that profits from companies selling arms to Saudi Arabia?

As for the others then no it should not be allowed that MPs vote for laws that they may directly profit from, but how would you stop it? Where do you draw the line. We will all have investments in our pension pots that I am sure you may not be comfortable with.

Stuff like this takes your first paragraph to a whole new level compared to Ian Blackfords tenuous investment link on behalf of a funeral deal.

UK PM’s husband’s Capital Group is largest shareholder in BAE, shares soar since Syrian airstrikes

Philip May, husband of the UK prime minister, works for a company that is the largest shareholder in arms manufacturer, BAE Systems, whose share price has soared since the recent airstrikes in Syria.
The company, Capital Group, is also the second-largest shareholder in Lockheed Martin – a US military arms firm that supplies weapons systems, aircraft and logistical support. Its shares have also rocketed since the missile strikes last week.
https://www.rt.com/uk/424392-may-husbands-capital-group/

[JeMeSouviens]

Stuff like this takes your first paragraph to a whole new level compared to Ian Blackfords tenuous investment link on behalf of a funeral deal.

UK PM’s husband’s Capital Group is largest shareholder in BAE, shares soar since Syrian airstrikes

Philip May, husband of the UK prime minister, works for a company that is the largest shareholder in arms manufacturer, BAE Systems, whose share price has soared since the recent airstrikes in Syria.
The company, Capital Group, is also the second-largest shareholder in Lockheed Martin – a US military arms firm that supplies weapons systems, aircraft and logistical support. Its shares have also rocketed since the missile strikes last week.
https://www.rt.com/uk/424392-may-husbands-capital-group/

But that’s not hypocritical because Tories are financially *and* ideologically committed to bombing the middle east.

[James310]

I had no idea who Maggie Chapman was, she is co-leader of the Greens. Anyway she has encouraged an unauthorised or wildcat Scottish Independence referendum and said:

"if an unauthorised referendum “came back in favour of independence, and the British government turned round and said, ‘No, you can’t have it’, I think that is another mobilising force”.

What on earth does she mean by a mobilising force? Is she expecting an army of Nationalists on the streets? Is that what our politicians are advocating? Sounds quite sinister.

Any unauthorised referendum would be a stupid move IMO as it would be boycotted by more than half the country and would not have the support of the electoral commission which kind of makes it pointless anyway. Plus I am sure it could not be funded by taxpayers.

[Just Alf]

I had no idea who Maggie Chapman was, she is co-leader of the Greens. Anyway she has encouraged an unauthorised or wildcat Scottish Independence referendum and said:

"if an unauthorised referendum “came back in favour of independence, and the British government turned round and said, ‘No, you can’t have it’, I think that is another mobilising force”.

What on earth does she mean by a mobilising force? Is she expecting an army of Nationalists on the streets? Is that what our politicians are advocating? Sounds quite sinister.

Any unauthorised referendum would be a stupid move IMO as it would be boycotted by more than half the country and would not have the support of the electoral commission which kind of makes it pointless anyway. Plus I am sure it could not be funded by taxpayers.I think mobilising force means exactly what it says... If Westminster were to say "no" then could be a push (a force) to encourage further campaigning for independence.

Can't see where the sinister part comes in. Your last part I generally agree with, unless it's done "above board" then it can open a whole can of worms.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

I had no idea who Maggie Chapman was, she is co-leader of the Greens. Anyway she has encouraged an unauthorised or wildcat Scottish Independence referendum and said:

"if an unauthorised referendum “came back in favour of independence, and the British government turned round and said, ‘No, you can’t have it’, I think that is another mobilising force”.

What on earth does she mean by a mobilising force? Is she expecting an army of Nationalists on the streets? Is that what our politicians are advocating? Sounds quite sinister.

Any unauthorised referendum would be a stupid move IMO as it would be boycotted by more than half the country and would not have the support of the electoral commission which kind of makes it pointless anyway. Plus I am sure it could not be funded by taxpayers.

There is of course a bit of Nationalist history with private referenda.

Brian Souter, the bus tycoon who has bankrolled the SNP to the tune of at least a couple of million, once ran his own referendum.

This was an attempt to stop the repeal of Clause 28. Yes, that's right. He poured a fortune of his own money into trying to keep nasty, homophobic legislation on the statute books.

As it turned out, practically the only people who participated were those with bigoted views about homosexuality, which meant he 'won' his referendum by a landslide.

Of course, he didn't just fund attempts to keep hateful and discriminatory legislation going. He gave the SNP half a million in March 2007. Entirely coincidental that the SNP dropped their demands for regulation of the bus network in April 2007, to the benefit of Mr Souter. And this was despite regulation being a commitment made at the SNP conference in 2006.

Anyway, I digress. Referenda have proven to be contentious and controversial when official, to say the least. Private or wildcat referenda are a recipe for disaster, regardless of one's personal views.

[James310]

There is of course a bit of Nationalist history with private referenda.

Brian Souter, the bus tycoon who has bankrolled the SNP to the tune of at least a couple of million, once ran his own referendum.

This was an attempt to stop the repeal of Clause 28. Yes, that's right. He poured a fortune of his own money into trying to keep nasty, homophobic legislation on the statute books.

As it turned out, practically the only people who participated were those with bigoted views about homosexuality, which meant he 'won' his referendum by a landslide.

Of course, he didn't just fund attempts to keep hateful and discriminatory legislation going. He gave the SNP half a million in March 2007. Entirely coincidental that the SNP dropped their demands for regulation of the bus network in April 2007, to the benefit of Mr Souter. And this was despite regulation being a commitment made at the SNP conference in 2006.

Anyway, I digress. Referenda have proven to be contentious and controversial when official, to say the least. Private or wildcat referenda are a recipe for disaster, regardless of one's personal views.

Surely all this can't be true. You mean the SNP are actually just like all other parties? Who would have thought.

It's a massive dilemma for Nicola Sturgeon. What is her next move if Westminster says no? As an aside I don't think she will last out the year. Joanna Cherry is clearly mounting a challenge to become leader and I think there is a lot of restlessness amongst SNP members who feel Nicola Sturgeon has dithered.

[Moulin Yarns]

I had no idea who Maggie Chapman was, she is co-leader of the Greens. Anyway she has encouraged an unauthorised or wildcat Scottish Independence referendum and said:

"if an unauthorised referendum “came back in favour of independence, and the British government turned round and said, ‘No, you can’t have it’, I think that is another mobilising force”.

What on earth does she mean by a mobilising force? Is she expecting an army of Nationalists on the streets? Is that what our politicians are advocating? Sounds quite sinister.

Any unauthorised referendum would be a stupid move IMO as it would be boycotted by more than half the country and would not have the support of the electoral commission which kind of makes it pointless anyway. Plus I am sure it could not be funded by taxpayers.

Your first sentence is enlightening, you didn't know the leaders of one of the parties in Scotland yet you continue to post against them.

[Moulin Yarns]

Surely all this can't be true. You mean the SNP are actually just like all other parties? Who would have thought.

It's a massive dilemma for Nicola Sturgeon. What is her next move if Westminster says no? As an aside I don't think she will last out the year. Joanna Cherry is clearly mounting a challenge to become leader and I think there is a lot of restlessness amongst SNP members who feel Nicola Sturgeon has dithered.

It is not just SNP members that feel she is dithering on indyref2 if you have been following Scottish politics this weekend.

[James310]

Your first sentence is enlightening, you didn't know the leaders of one of the parties in Scotland yet you continue to post against them.

If I stopped the first 100 people I saw this morning and asked them who Maggie Chapman was, how many do you think would know?

[Mr Grieves]

Can someone change the thread title to SNP obsession?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Can someone change the thread title to SNP obsession?

Or tiresome SNP obsession.

[Peevemor]

If I stopped the first 100 people I saw this morning and asked them who Maggie Chapman was, how many do you think would know?

Easy! She shot John Lennon. :agree:

[allmodcons]

There is of course a bit of Nationalist history with private referenda.

Brian Souter, the bus tycoon who has bankrolled the SNP to the tune of at least a couple of million, once ran his own referendum.

This was an attempt to stop the repeal of Clause 28. Yes, that's right. He poured a fortune of his own money into trying to keep nasty, homophobic legislation on the statute books.

As it turned out, practically the only people who participated were those with bigoted views about homosexuality, which meant he 'won' his referendum by a landslide.

Of course, he didn't just fund attempts to keep hateful and discriminatory legislation going. He gave the SNP half a million in March 2007. Entirely coincidental that the SNP dropped their demands for regulation of the bus network in April 2007, to the benefit of Mr Souter. And this was despite regulation being a commitment made at the SNP conference in 2006.

Anyway, I digress. Referenda have proven to be contentious and controversial when official, to say the least. Private or wildcat referenda are a recipe for disaster, regardless of one's personal views.

You trying to re-write history?

The Section 28 'referendum' took place in the year 2000, 7 years before Souter's donation to the SNP. In the Scottish Parliament the SNP group voted to repeal the Act. Surprise, surprise the Conservatives opposed repeal.

Your contention that the SNP have a history with private referenda is just nonsense. They have a history with a man who held a private referendum 7 years before he donated.

Your comments around Souter's donation and the regulation of the bus network are at best contentious. If you want to get into a debate about unethical donations you might want to provide a balanced post referencing some of the many 'unethical' donations the Conservative and Labour Parties have received over the years but I guess that doesn't suit your narrative.

[James310]

Or tiresome SNP obsession.

It's terrible when people criticise the government of the day. We should not encourage it.

The obsession with Brexit as well on the other threads is awful.

A quick look at the first page of the HG shows we have 2 separate threads about Israel and 2 separate threads about how the Tories are such ***** and why are all Tories so ignorant. One thread about the SNP. Who is obsessed?

[JeMeSouviens]

There is of course a bit of Nationalist history with private referenda.

Brian Souter, the bus tycoon who has bankrolled the SNP to the tune of at least a couple of million, once ran his own referendum.

This was an attempt to stop the repeal of Clause 28. Yes, that's right. He poured a fortune of his own money into trying to keep nasty, homophobic legislation on the statute books.

As it turned out, practically the only people who participated were those with bigoted views about homosexuality, which meant he 'won' his referendum by a landslide.

Of course, he didn't just fund attempts to keep hateful and discriminatory legislation going. He gave the SNP half a million in March 2007. Entirely coincidental that the SNP dropped their demands for regulation of the bus network in April 2007, to the benefit of Mr Souter. And this was despite regulation being a commitment made at the SNP conference in 2006.

Anyway, I digress. Referenda have proven to be contentious and controversial when official, to say the least. Private or wildcat referenda are a recipe for disaster, regardless of one's personal views.

Dearie me, that’s pretty desperate dredging. I deplore Souter’s homophobia but I can’t see you managing to make that tag stick to the government that brought in marriage equality.

[Fife-Hibee]

We're all related to Adam and Eve (Or the non-biblical equivalent). Therefore all that's bad that happens in the world is linked to the SNP. #SNPoot

[ronaldo7]

Good to see the 77th brigade up with the lark, and manning the trenches against those pesky nats.

[JeMeSouviens]

Good to see the 77th brigade up with the lark, and manning the trenches against those pesky nats.

Is Prince Wills on the team? :wink:

[James310]

The need to spy is driven by the need to find out what is hidden and secretive. So what are the SNP hiding if you genuinely believe they are being targeted.

I am off the board for the next few hours as need to meet my Mi5 handler.

[marinello59]

Is Prince Wills on the team? :wink:

Along with Pike, Jones and Godfrey.