SNP nonsense [Archive] - Page 6 - hibs.net Messageboard

Chic Murray

30-09-2018, 06:11 AM

The one thing that’s really offputting is the bitterness and anger that’s coming from a section of SNP supporters towards Labour.

It’s really been since Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard have taken over...Nationalists have been trying to convince themselves that they are a more of a socialist party than Labour (which is laughable) and trying to tarnish them as some Tory lite party (mainly because they don’t support independence). Labour and their supporters have been no saints either but it seems to be mainly one way.

I’m sorry but current policies are what we should be looking at and making judgements on, not the actions of past administrations that are rather different.

As a former SNP member (a party I have no beef with and admire in some areas) who voted for independence, I find it rather sad that the lunatics are starting to take over the asylum.

What's really off putting for me, a floating voter, is the bitterness and pettiness coming from all parties. Politicians show a paucity of imagination, and would rather attack each other than offer any progressive ideas.

They seem to think the public is going to warm to the biggest smart arse in debates. Guilty of judging others by their own narcissistic standards.

G B Young

01-10-2018, 07:30 PM

Early new year date now set for Salmond's legal challenge:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45711872

heretoday

02-10-2018, 12:44 PM

Boris Johnson made the point today that the government can hardly give the country a second vote on the EU without giving Scots another vote on Indy.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy

02-10-2018, 04:31 PM

Boris Johnson made the point today that the government can hardly give the country a second vote on the EU without giving Scots another vote on Indy.

I read something saying that is why Sturgeon is stalling on supporting a 2nd ref, because it would create the precedent that any separation deal post Indy negotiations would require the same.

We certainly have layers of complexity in our politics at the moment!

lucky

02-10-2018, 06:16 PM

https://www.scotsman.com/news/hugh-kerr-why-i-quit-labour-to-rejoin-the-snp-1-4805275

former Labour MEP

the only sour notes in the conference, sadly, came from Scottish Labour delegates who seemed to spend more time attacking the SNP than the tories, despite the austerity they rightly complain about having been created by their cuts and the SNP government doing it's best to mitigate them.

Richard Leonard the scottish labour leader, says they will oppose a second referendum on scottish independence, yet he is in favour of a second referendum on Brexit.

welcome to the good guys, the ONLY true Scottish Socialist Party :aok:

Scottish Labour= the wee tories :agree: and the more Scots that become aware of this the better

Hugh has been out of the Labour Party for years but continually uses former MEP all the time. He’s regarded as a bit of joke figure by left wing Yessers that I know. His politics are all about him

danhibees1875

02-10-2018, 10:55 PM

Boris Johnson made the point today that the government can hardly give the country a second vote on the EU without giving Scots another vote on Indy.

I'd disagree - it'd be simple to allow a second EU one without the need for a Scottish one.

The EU one was closer, more complex with individual countries voting differently, and the effect on our currency was immediate and still lasting now, there has been an established trend of polls that show opinion has shifted to remain.

WeeRussell

03-10-2018, 11:59 AM

I'd disagree - it'd be simple to allow a second EU one without the need for a Scottish one.

The EU one was closer, more complex with individual countries voting differently, and the effect on our currency was immediate and still lasting now, there has been an established trend of polls that show opinion has shifted to remain.

The EU one was closer - by how much? Enough that it warrants another spin anymore than any other referendum?

individual countries voting differently - ironic but correct. Still don't see that gives a better case for another vote ahead of any other referendums.

polls that show opinion has shifted to remain - hasn't opinion shifted in Scotland re independence as well?

I think the biggest case for another go is all the misinformation (not getting into the "lie" debate) etc.. which again applies (and then some) in the Scottish independence case too.

I don't know what your political leanings are, but your post reads to me like someone who really wants to remain but really doesn't want Scotland to get another chance at independence?

And apologies for the formatting of my quoting... I'm no great at this:greengrin

danhibees1875

03-10-2018, 12:44 PM

The EU one was closer - by how much? Enough that it warrants another spin anymore than any other referendum?

individual countries voting differently - ironic but correct. Still don't see that gives a better case for another vote ahead of any other referendums.

polls that show opinion has shifted to remain - hasn't opinion shifted in Scotland re independence as well?

I think the biggest case for another go is all the misinformation (not getting into the "lie" debate) etc.. which again applies (and then some) in the Scottish independence case too.

I don't know what your political leanings are, but your post reads to me like someone who really wants to remain but really doesn't want Scotland to get another chance at independence?

And apologies for the formatting of my quoting... I'm no great at this:greengrin

Closer - The EU one was almost 3x closer. 51.89% v 48.11% (3.78% gap) compared to 55.3% v 44.7% (10.6% gap) (although that is an example of making stats appear more damning than the reality if I ever seen one - both broadly similar, but the EU one was still closer).

Countries - I'd agree it was a fairly irrelevant point, just that I think it complicates the situation.

Opinion - I don't think. I think it still polls at No.

I voted remain and yes - I've seen the mess we're now in and certainly still want us to remain and wouldn't know how I'd vote in a second referendum at the moment; I'm probably still leaning towards yes, but I just don't want another vote on it - I just think that we'd be far better off leaving constitutional debates to rest for now (apart from the second EU vote :greengrin ) and getting on with things. A strong left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland across a long period of time would then pave the way to a better arguement for indy.

I think if we ran both polls again now the results would be remain and no - which is also a good reason to rethink the EU one and not waste time (that sounds more flippant than I intended) on the Scottish one.

Fife-Hibee

03-10-2018, 03:23 PM

Closer - The EU one was almost 3x closer. 51.89% v 48.11% (3.78% gap) compared to 55.3% v 44.7% (10.6% gap) (although that is an example of making stats appear more damning than the reality if I ever seen one - both broadly similar, but the EU one was still closer).

Countries - I'd agree it was a fairly irrelevant point, just that I think it complicates the situation.

Opinion - I don't think. I think it still polls at No.

I voted remain and yes - I've seen the mess we're now in and certainly still want us to remain and wouldn't know how I'd vote in a second referendum at the moment; I'm probably still leaning towards yes, but I just don't want another vote on it - I just think that we'd be far better off leaving constitutional debates to rest for now (apart from the second EU vote :greengrin ) and getting on with things. A strong left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland across a long period of time would then pave the way to a better arguement for indy.

I think if we ran both polls again now the results would be remain and no - which is also a good reason to rethink the EU one and not waste time (that sounds more flippant than I intended) on the Scottish one.

What do you think the likelihood of a second EU vote occuring is? What good is a left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland, when people continue to attack them for things that they don't have any influence over? Not to mention the powers that are about to be revoked from the Scottish Parliament that were protected under EU legislation.

Nobody in a million years ever thought the YES campaign would get the level of support that they did. Almost everybody thought the idea of an independence referendum at the time was ridiculous, because there was just "no interest".

I'm not convinced for one moment that if another independence referendum was held that it would be a "no" result. So much has changed in so little time that it's no longer the same question anymore.

makaveli1875

03-10-2018, 03:38 PM

With the fiasco of Brexit still rumbing on for years , referendums should be made illegal and anyone who even mentions the word put infront of a firing squad .

danhibees1875

03-10-2018, 03:41 PM

What do you think the likelihood of a second EU vote occuring is? What good is a left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland, when people continue to attack them for things that they don't have any influence over? Not to mention the powers that are about to be revoked from the Scottish Parliament that were protected under EU legislation.

Nobody in a million years ever thought the YES campaign would get the level of support that they did. Almost everybody thought the idea of an independence referendum at the time was ridiculous, because there was just "no interest".

I'm not convinced for one moment that if another independence referendum was held that it would be a "no" result. So much has changed in so little time that it's no longer the same question anymore.

I've no idea of the likelihood, but I feel it's gotten progressively more likely over time. I would still say it's unlikely though.

As for what good is a left leaning government showing positive results... I would have to say, what is bad about a government showing positive results? :confused: Surely that's what everyone should be after (less the left-leaning part) at the end of the day? I want the SNP to do well for Scotland and I want the Tories to do well for the UK - irrespective of the various constitutional debates.

Fife-Hibee

03-10-2018, 03:53 PM

I've no idea of the likelihood, but I feel it's gotten progressively more likely over time. I would still say it's unlikely though.

As for what good is a left leaning government showing positive results... I would have to say, what is bad about a government showing positive results? :confused: Surely that's what everyone should be after (less the left-leaning part) at the end of the day? I want the SNP to do well for Scotland and I want the Tories to do well for the UK - irrespective of the various constitutional debates.

You know that's not what I meant. The Scottish Government will forever be attacked on things that they couldn't possibly have any influence over. The most effective ammunition the UK Government has over the Scottish Parliament is the sheer lack of understanding from most people on what can be influenced and what can't. The powers in which they withhold have a direct impact on the powers that aren't. People put pressure on the Scottish Government to make the most out of the powers they have, but it's nowhere near as simple as that. The Parliaments inability to change certain things, prevents them from changing other things that they have the power to change, without it having a detrimental impact.

But who really ever takes the time to consider this issue?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy

03-10-2018, 04:24 PM

What do you think the likelihood of a second EU vote occuring is? What good is a left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland, when people continue to attack them for things that they don't have any influence over? Not to mention the powers that are about to be revoked from the Scottish Parliament that were protected under EU legislation.

Nobody in a million years ever thought the YES campaign would get the level of support that they did. Almost everybody thought the idea of an independence referendum at the time was ridiculous, because there was just "no interest".

I'm not convinced for one moment that if another independence referendum was held that it would be a "no" result. So much has changed in so little time that it's no longer the same question anymore.

What powers are being revoked from Holyrood?

And you are completely wrong about the first referendum - there were many, many people in the SNP and out who didn't think the idea was bonkers, and many thought they could win. I accept that there were also many who wouldn't have thought they would get the support they did though.

It's a bit of a straw man argument from you though.

Fife-Hibee

03-10-2018, 04:47 PM

What powers are being revoked from Holyrood?

And you are completely wrong about the first referendum - there were many, many people in the SNP and out who didn't think the idea was bonkers, and many thought they could win. I accept that there were also many who wouldn't have thought they would get the support they did though.

It's a bit of a straw man argument from you though.

They're going to be taking money out of the hands of the Scottish Government and directly giving it to local councils. Something that they couldn't do previously under EU Legislation. It may seem like a good idea at first glance. However, we're now relying on the UK Government to decide which level of funding is necessary and where. I wonder which councils will have their funding requests met and which ones will not. :rolleyes:

You're correct that closer to the end of the campaign, there were plenty of people who thought this. However, closer to the beginning of the campaign, the possibility of their being a favourable result in favour of independence was considered ludacris. High profile figures that backed the union didn't step in until the latter half of the campaign when they started seeing the shift in the polls.

Are you sure you understand the straw man concept?

WeeRussell

04-10-2018, 11:58 AM

johnbc70

17-10-2018, 08:14 PM

https://theweeflea.com/2018/10/16/the-end-of-scottish-independence/

Interesting take on it all, well it will be for some and for others it will obviously be a load of rubbish.

I do think the SNP support of the people's vote seems to have been largely ignored. As the article states does that mean if we ever got a Yes vote we then get another vote on the terms of the break up deal?

If you think Brexit is complicated wait until you try and break up a union where we have shared currency, greater trade links and deeper integrated government machinery etc.

But at least we would get another vote on the terms of the deal....

Fife-Hibee

17-10-2018, 09:13 PM

If you think Brexit is complicated wait until you try and break up a union where we have shared currency, greater trade links and deeper integrated government machinery etc.

We may decide that we no longer wish to share that currency after the impact it will undoubtedly face after a hard brexit. As for the greater trade links, in a lot of cases the UK is merely the middle man between Scotland and the European Union. Our trade links with the UK are going to look rather different if UK/EU trade deals break down. If the integrated government machinery includes things like trident, then i'm sure many will be delighted to see the back of them.

RyeSloan

17-10-2018, 09:18 PM

We may decide that we no longer wish to share that currency after the impact it will undoubtedly face after a hard brexit. As for the greater trade links, in a lot of cases the UK is merely the middle man between Scotland and the European Union. Our trade links with the UK are going to look rather different if UK/EU trade deals break down. If the integrated government machinery includes things like trident, then i'm sure many will be delighted to see the back of them.

So if the currency is crap we will just use a different one, our trade really isn’t with rUK so we’ll just cut out the middle man and stuff trident anyway.

Cool.

johnbc70

17-10-2018, 09:21 PM

We may decide that we no longer wish to share that currency after the impact it will undoubtedly face after a hard brexit. As for the greater trade links, in a lot of cases the UK is merely the middle man between Scotland and the European Union. Our trade links with the UK are going to look rather different if UK/EU trade deals break down. If the integrated government machinery includes things like trident, then i'm sure many will be delighted to see the back of them.

I am talking about direct trade links with the rest of the UK. It's nearly 4 times the size of our trade with the EU. I don't think the UK is the middle man in trade with itself.

What about the main thrust of the article though?

Moulin Yarns

13-01-2019, 01:28 PM

Oh dear

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46856934

Had to be done.

Future17

13-01-2019, 03:31 PM

Oh dear

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46856934

Had to be done.

I don't have much experience of Jackson Carlaw, but the small amount I do has been negative. His comments at the end of that article don't even make sense.

Moulin Yarns

13-01-2019, 03:47 PM

I don't have much experience of Jackson Carlaw, but the small amount I do has been negative. His comments at the end of that article don't even make sense.

Nowt but point scoring

RyeSloan

13-01-2019, 06:08 PM

Nowt but point scoring

What? A political scoring points regarding their opponents having to refer themselves to a standards panel...whatever next!

As it is his comments are aimed at the fact that he believes Sturgeon has not been overly effective in dealing with the matter (seems reasonable enough considering her move today), and as the parameters of the standards investigation are still to be set he’s suggesting that they should be set appropriately to allow the investigation to be a proper one rather than very narrowly and thus just paying lip service, which again seems reasonable and clear enough.

His last paragraph is, I grant you, not entirely clear but again I would suggest that he’s stating that the rather important matter of the first minsters conduct in the sorry affair is clearly and properly answered. I don’t think that ranks as wider and more important than the allegations themselves but it’s not entirely clear if that what he is comparing against.

I’m not entirely sure what you would expect him to say or do in such a situation...Sturgeon has got herself into a bit of a mess here and has been forced to refer her conduct to an independent review to confirm her conduct was appropriate...fertile ground for opposition parties I would suggest and maybe the focus should be more on how she has managed to let that happen rather than the responses to such an event?

Smartie

13-01-2019, 06:15 PM

I think all parties will need to tread carefully as they try to work out how best to capitalise on this situation.

2 people have complained of sexual harassment - political opportunism (as Carlaw seems to be wanting to go for here) could very easily backfire into a PR disaster for him and the Tories.

It's hard to say without knowing the full story and the released information gives little away, but I'm not sure what Sturgeon has done wrong.

James310

13-01-2019, 06:59 PM

Nowt but point scoring

I imagine if this was a Labour or Tory in same situation there would be plenty of point scoring from the SNP.

Personally I think this is the end for Sturgeon.

marinello59

13-01-2019, 07:04 PM

I imagine if this was a Labour or Tory in same situation there would be plenty of point scoring from the SNP.

Personally I think this is the end for Sturgeon.

I agree, if it was a politician of any other party the SNP diehards here would be all over it. I’ll disagree about it being the end for Sturgeon though. She has done the right thing here. I am fairly confident she has done nothing wrong either.

ronaldo7

13-01-2019, 07:12 PM

I agree, if it was a politician of any other party the SNP diehards here would be all over it. I’ll disagree about it being the end for Sturgeon though. She has done the right thing here. I am fairly confident she has done nothing wrong either.

Ah, for once we agree.

Now, that tory dark money that's been on the go for months.

ronaldo7

13-01-2019, 07:21 PM

I imagine if this was a Labour or Tory in same situation there would be plenty of point scoring from the SNP.

Personally I think this is the end for Sturgeon.

The end?

Jack

13-01-2019, 07:37 PM

James310

13-01-2019, 07:39 PM

The end?

She may resign. Any breach of the ministerial code and she has to go.

ronaldo7

13-01-2019, 07:55 PM

She may resign. Any breach of the ministerial code and she has to go.

I think you'll be waiting a while.

James310

13-01-2019, 08:08 PM

I think you'll be waiting a while.

You may be right, we will see.

However we must not forget the women who made the complaints in the first place. The whole process has turned into a circus by Salmond and the Scottish Government. It's all been very unfortunate for pretty much everyone involved.

ronaldo7

13-01-2019, 08:15 PM

You may be right, we will see.

However we must not forget the women who made the complaints in the first place. The whole process has turned into a circus by Salmond and the Scottish Government. It's all been very unfortunate for pretty much everyone involved.

I'd suggest, the UK civil service have more to do with this than those you allude to. MacKinnon, and Evans to name but two.

As you say though, time will tell.

Smartie

13-01-2019, 08:26 PM

As a former solicitor and a heid screwed on politician I'm sure she will have been only too aware of what she was doing and making sure nothing untoward happened.

It is a fairly unique situation though, without any sort of precedent and there are conflicts of interest everywhere. Having any idea what is the right thing to do is hard enough before considering how to go about actually doing the right thing every step of the way.

James310

13-01-2019, 08:37 PM

I'd suggest, the UK civil service have more to do with this than those you allude to. MacKinnon, and Evans to name but two.

As you say though, time will tell.

It would have been interesting to see if Salmond had 'won' if the Scottish Government had not made such a cock up of the whole process. (wrong phrase in light of the complaint maybe)

ronaldo7

13-01-2019, 08:45 PM

It would have been interesting to see if Salmond had 'won' if the Scottish Government had not made such a cock up of the whole process. (wrong phrase in light of the complaint maybe)

It does seem rather strange that the UK civil service working in the Scottish government, sat on those e mails for several months, and only found them in December, when instructed to release the contents.

Very strange indeed.

James310

13-01-2019, 08:57 PM

It does seem rather strange that the UK civil service working in the Scottish government, sat on those e mails for several months, and only found them in December, when instructed to release the contents.

Very strange indeed.

I know why you refer them as the UK Civil service as you think it somehow transfers the blame to the UK and Westminster, is that right? If so that is a bit petty.

Leslie Evans was appointed by the Scottish Government who had the final say on her appointment and she is accountable to the Scottish Government.

The below is from the Scottish Government.

“The First Minister of Scotland makes the final decision, following consultation with the Head of the Civil Service and the First Civil Service Commissioner (Panel Chair in this case).”

Thus the appointment of the Permanent Secretary, and therefore Leslie Evans, is by the First Minister of Scotland, and she is answerable to Scottish Ministers"

ronaldo7

13-01-2019, 09:02 PM

I know why you refer them as the UK Civil service as you think it somehow transfers the blame to the UK and Westminster, is that right? If so that is a bit petty.

Leslie Evans was appointed by the Scottish Government who had the final say on her appointment and she is accountable to the Scottish Government.

The below is from the Scottish Government.

“The First Minister of Scotland makes the final decision, following consultation with the Head of the Civil Service and the First Civil Service Commissioner (Panel Chair in this case).”

Thus the appointment of the Permanent Secretary, and therefore Leslie Evans, is by the First Minister of Scotland, and she is answerable to Scottish Ministers"

I refer to them as the UK civil service in Scotland, as that's what they are.

Do you disagree?

NAE NOOKIE

13-01-2019, 11:22 PM

You know that's not what I meant. The Scottish Government will forever be attacked on things that they couldn't possibly have any influence over. The most effective ammunition the UK Government has over the Scottish Parliament is the sheer lack of understanding from most people on what can be influenced and what can't. The powers in which they withhold have a direct impact on the powers that aren't. People put pressure on the Scottish Government to make the most out of the powers they have, but it's nowhere near as simple as that. The Parliaments inability to change certain things, prevents them from changing other things that they have the power to change, without it having a detrimental impact.

But who really ever takes the time to consider this issue?

Especially when even Scottish Tory MP's don't know. Like Kirstene Hair MP for Angus who at the end of last year criticised the SNP for allowing a branch of UK government owned RBS to be closed in her constituency and cited the SNP's slow rollout of broadband in the area as a major contributor to it, despite the fact that the roll out of broadband isn't a devolved issue :faf:

But levity aside, the damage stuff like that does is clear because folk don't have a clue in many cases what is and isn't devolved, so statements like the one Ms Hair made are often believed without being questioned by most folk even though they are utter bollox. Its a point I have made many times … the Scottish government ( any Scottish government ) operates with one hand tied behind its back because things that aren't devolved can and often do have a direct effect on other issues that are. Its why I have often thought that the establishment of Holyrood was as much a hindrance to the drive for independence as a help.

PeeJay

14-01-2019, 06:32 AM

I know why you refer them as the UK Civil service as you think it somehow transfers the blame to the UK and Westminster, is that right? If so that is a bit petty.

Fair point - Seems to me that it is not quite correct to refer to them solely as the "UK civil service" . Although the majority of the civil service departments work for the UK administration, a large part of the civil service in Scotland does actually work for the devolved administration - the poster may be unaware of this or he may be doing exactly what you imply ... :greengrin

RyeSloan

14-01-2019, 06:48 AM

Especially when even Scottish Tory MP's don't know. Like Kirstene Hair MP for Angus who at the end of last year criticised the SNP for allowing a branch of UK government owned RBS to be closed in her constituency and cited the SNP's slow rollout of broadband in the area as a major contributor to it, despite the fact that the roll out of broadband isn't a devolved issue :faf:

But levity aside, the damage stuff like that does is clear because folk don't have a clue in many cases what is and isn't devolved, so statements like the one Ms Hair made are often believed without being questioned by most folk even though they are utter bollox. Its a point I have made many times … the Scottish government ( any Scottish government ) operates with one hand tied behind its back because things that aren't devolved can and often do have a direct effect on other issues that are. Its why I have often thought that the establishment of Holyrood was as much a hindrance to the drive for independence as a help.

Maybe the fact that super fast broadband for all has been an SNP manifesto pledge for some time might have caused the confusion?

A pledge that states “We will ensure that 100 per cent of premises across Scotland have access to super-fast broadband by 2021”

Or the pledge in 2016 to spend £400m to bring super fast broadband to 95% of people?

Not that I’m super close to what’s going on and I’m pretty sure the broadband rollout has been reasonably successful (so not sure if Kirstene is right or wrong) but to suggest it’s got nothing to do with the SNP when specific pledges about that very matter have been in a number of its manifestos seems a bit odd.

ronaldo7

14-01-2019, 07:04 AM

Fair point - Seems to me that it is not quite correct to refer to them solely as the "UK civil service" . Although the majority of the civil service departments work for the UK administration, a large part of the civil service in Scotland does actually work for the devolved administration - the poster may be unaware of this or he may be doing exactly what you imply ... :greengrin

My terminology is clear, they are the uk civil service, working in Scotland. Scotland doesn't have a civil service, but we will after independence. 🏆

Hope this helps. 🎯

Jack

14-01-2019, 07:13 AM

The Civil Service is made of Crown employees so are employed by neither Westminster or Holyrood.

PeeJay

14-01-2019, 07:43 AM

My terminology is clear, they are the uk civil service, working in Scotland. Scotland doesn't have a civil service, but we will after independence. 🏆

Hope this helps. 🎯

My understanding is that Scotland has civil service departments working solely for the Scottish administration - and there are UK civil service departments working for the UK administration, also located in Scotland (and the UK!). The devolved administration (Scotland) has to all intents and purposes a civil service working on its behalf - ultimately - of course - they are all UK civil servants and they are all in the UK.

Below is a link to the Scottish Civil Service that you seem to be claiming doesn't exist, posted by the Scottish Government - but what do I know :greengrin

https://www.gov.scot/about/how-government-is-run/civil-service/

ronaldo7

14-01-2019, 07:53 AM

My understanding is that Scotland has civil service departments working solely for the Scottish administration - and there are UK civil service departments working for the UK administration, also located in Scotland (and the UK!). The devolved administration (Scotland) has to all intents and purposes a civil service working on its behalf - ultimately - of course - they are all UK civil servants and they are all in the UK.

Below is a link to the Scottish Civil Service that you seem to be claiming doesn't exist, posted by the Scottish Government - but what do I know :greengrin

https://www.gov.scot/about/how-government-is-run/civil-service/

And the top of the tree rises directly to London. As I said, the UK civil service, working in Scotland. ✌

James310

14-01-2019, 08:00 AM

And the top of the tree rises directly to London. As I said, the UK civil service, working in Scotland. ✌

So cut to the chase, you blame Westminster and the UK civil service and London etc, and in no way accept that anyone in the SNP or Scottish government is at fault for this shambles of a process?

ronaldo7

14-01-2019, 08:16 AM

So cut to the chase, you blame Westminster and the UK civil service and London etc, and in no way accept that anyone in the SNP or Scottish government is at fault for this shambles of a process?

Nope, I replied to this question earlier. The full facts are not known yet. You seem to want to blame someone without knowing all of them.

All roads do seem to lead back to Evans though, but I'll await the outcome when all the facts are out thanks.

Jack

14-01-2019, 08:21 AM

I'm assuming all those discussing the virtues, or otherwise, of the UK Civil Service are too young to have watched Yes Minister or Yes Prime Minister?

One Day Soon

14-01-2019, 09:37 AM

I see it's all going a bit Popular People's Front versus People's Popular Front.

There's not enough tartan popcorn in the shops for the weeks ahead...

degenerated

14-01-2019, 09:48 AM

Nope, I replied to this question earlier. The full facts are not known yet. You seem to want to blame someone without knowing all of them.

All roads do seem to lead back to Evans though, but I'll await the outcome when all the facts are out thanks.

Evans does have form for being less than honest

http://www.kidsnotsuits.com/fake-news-how-public-lies-begin/

NAE NOOKIE

14-01-2019, 12:11 PM

Maybe the fact that super fast broadband for all has been an SNP manifesto pledge for some time might have caused the confusion?

A pledge that states “We will ensure that 100 per cent of premises across Scotland have access to super-fast broadband by 2021”

Or the pledge in 2016 to spend £400m to bring super fast broadband to 95% of people?

Not that I’m super close to what’s going on and I’m pretty sure the broadband rollout has been reasonably successful (so not sure if Kirstene is right or wrong) but to suggest it’s got nothing to do with the SNP when specific pledges about that very matter have been in a number of its manifestos seems a bit odd.

That's all true …. but I would suggest the fact that the Scottish government have committed to this ( I have no doubt as a reaction to the UK government's painfully slow efforts in Scotland ) doesn't excuse a Scottish Tory MP for seemingly being unaware that an attack on it is crass hypocrisy considering her own governments failings.

JeMeSouviens

14-01-2019, 12:20 PM

I see it's all going a bit Popular People's Front versus People's Popular Front.

There's not enough tartan popcorn in the shops for the weeks ahead...

Sigh. It's certainly gone up a notch hasn't it? Good job there's nothing important happening we wouldn't want to lose focus from this week. :rolleyes:

RyeSloan

14-01-2019, 12:28 PM

That's all true …. but I would suggest the fact that the Scottish government have committed to this ( I have no doubt as a reaction to the UK government's painfully slow efforts in Scotland ) doesn't excuse a Scottish Tory MP for seemingly being unaware that an attack on it is crass hypocrisy considering her own governments failings.

Aha come on...a politician showing gross hypocrisy, and you are shocked n surprised? [emoji2957]

One Day Soon

14-01-2019, 12:37 PM

Sigh. It's certainly gone up a notch hasn't it? Good job there's nothing important happening we wouldn't want to lose focus from this week. :rolleyes:

It's a case of pick your own 5hitstorm: Meltdown in Scotland, meltdown at Westminster, (not so) slow motion meltdown in the US...

Mibbes Aye

14-01-2019, 01:29 PM

Nope, I replied to this question earlier. The full facts are not known yet. You seem to want to blame someone without knowing all of them.

All roads do seem to lead back to Evans though, but I'll await the outcome when all the facts are out thanks.

Did Sturgeon not admit she had meetings and phone calls with Salmond about this matter last April but waited a couple of months before telling Evans?

It would be shameful to use a civil servant as a fall guy, whether it was Salmond, Sturgeon or both who were in the wrong, wouldn’t it?

JeMeSouviens

14-01-2019, 01:40 PM

Jack

14-01-2019, 01:41 PM

Did Sturgeon not admit she had meetings and phone calls with Salmond about this matter last April but waited a couple of months before telling Evans?

It would be shameful to use a civil servant as a fall guy, whether it was Salmond, Sturgeon or both who were in the wrong, wouldn’t it?

First rule of government.

If something goes well the politicians get the credit.

If something goes badly civil servants get the blame.

Mibbes Aye

14-01-2019, 01:44 PM

First rule of government.

If something goes well the politicians get the credit.

If something goes badly civil servants get the blame.

True, though there was a time when it was different.

JeMeSouviens

14-01-2019, 01:46 PM

First rule of government.

If something goes well the politicians get the credit.

If something goes badly civil servants get the blame.

Imagine working for Chris Grayling. :shocked:

RyeSloan

14-01-2019, 02:19 PM

RyeSloan - see, telt ye! :wink:

[emoji23][emoji23]

ronaldo7

14-01-2019, 07:04 PM

Did Sturgeon not admit she had meetings and phone calls with Salmond about this matter last April but waited a couple of months before telling Evans?

It would be shameful to use a civil servant as a fall guy, whether it was Salmond, Sturgeon or both who were in the wrong, wouldn’t it?

Sexism is alive and well in the Labour party in 2019.:greengrin

As to your question, I'll let the independent inquiries in both cases run their course. It's a pity some others won't.:wink:

cabbageandribs1875

16-01-2019, 03:37 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46881007

Dorothy Bain QC, acting for Ms Ahmed-Sheikh, described the former MP's career as a practising solicitor from 1996 to 2015 as "unblemished" and said she would like to continue her legal work.
Ms Bain said: "It has been accepted entirely by the Law Society that there is no suggestion at all of dishonesty or impropriety on her part."

good news, come on back to the Fold soon Tasmina :agree:

pacoluna

16-01-2019, 09:37 PM

cabbageandribs1875

17-01-2019, 08:33 AM

Michelle Thompson has rejoined aswell, wonder what SNP member will be defamed next other than sturgeon and salmond ofcourse.

the dirty tricks campaign will go in to overdrive pretty soon after oor Nic announces indy2, no doubt led by the scottish tories bagman..Slab

Ozyhibby

17-01-2019, 09:19 AM

the dirty tricks campaign will go in to overdrive pretty soon after oor Nic announces indy2, no doubt led by the scottish tories bagman..Slab

Indyref 2 will be a very different campaign for Better together. It’s likely to be headed up by a Tory and the pool of Mp’s and MSP’s to staff it will be a lot smaller.
A lot of the media work is going to have to be done by Westminster politicians or unknowns from up here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

James310

17-01-2019, 10:58 AM

Indyref 2 will be a very different campaign for Better together. It’s likely to be headed up by a Tory and the pool of Mp’s and MSP’s to staff it will be a lot smaller.
A lot of the media work is going to have to be done by Westminster politicians or unknowns from up here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's assuming a S30 is given and a campaign begins , can't see that happening. What happens next?

Moulin Yarns

17-01-2019, 11:11 AM

That's assuming a S30 is given and a campaign begins , can't see that happening. What happens next?

You are assuming that the independence movement need to bother with the S30 this time round. "Not at this time" has a lot more pressing things to bother about.

James310

17-01-2019, 11:40 AM

You are assuming that the independence movement need to bother with the S30 this time round. "Not at this time" has a lot more pressing things to bother about.

So what's plan B if no S30?

Moulin Yarns

17-01-2019, 03:42 PM

So what's plan B if no S30?

Have you heard of catalonia?

Anyways, this is the wrong thread, you should post it on the Scottish independence thread instead.

James310

17-01-2019, 04:00 PM

Have you heard of catalonia?

Anyways, this is the wrong thread, you should post it on the Scottish independence thread instead.

Catalonia? That went well for them.

JeMeSouviens

17-01-2019, 04:05 PM

So what's plan B if no S30?

Why no S30? Even the UK gov haven't said Scot gov doesn't have a mandate, just that "now is not the time", which Scot gov decided to agree with when indy didn't get the poll boost they were hoping for.

If Scot gov push it they'll get another S30 order, the mandate is clear. Whether they do push it is another matter.

JeMeSouviens

17-01-2019, 04:06 PM

Catalonia? That went well for them.

Yeah, not the poster child for non-agreed refs! I'm not (entirely) sure UK gov would ship in English riot squads to beat up the population here though.

James310

17-01-2019, 04:20 PM

Why no S30? Even the UK gov haven't said Scot gov doesn't have a mandate, just that "now is not the time", which Scot gov decided to agree with when indy didn't get the poll boost they were hoping for.

If Scot gov push it they'll get another S30 order, the mandate is clear. Whether they do push it is another matter.

They may well get it. But if not then was asking what's plan B, we all know every one needs a plan B now.

I can't see the SNP going down same road as Catalonia.

JeMeSouviens

17-01-2019, 04:25 PM

They may well get it. But if not then was asking what's plan B, we all know every one needs a plan B now.

I can't see the SNP going down same road as Catalonia.

Don't know. My plan B under those circumstances fwiw (nothing) would be dissolve Holyrood and call an election with an unconditional pledge to hold indyref2.

Although I personally wouldn't hold another indyref until after the 2nd brexit ref which I still hope is coming soon.

James310

17-01-2019, 04:58 PM

Don't know. My plan B under those circumstances fwiw (nothing) would be dissolve Holyrood and call an election with an unconditional pledge to hold indyref2.

Although I personally wouldn't hold another indyref until after the 2nd brexit ref which I still hope is coming soon.

I can maybe see that happening but don't think we should be using elections as referendums. The Unionist vote is split between Labour, Torys and Lib Dems so I don't think it's fair to ask the electorate to treat an election as a referendum.

In the 2017 General Election for example the SNP got the most votes and most seats. They got just under 1,000,000 votes, but if you add up the Unionist party votes they got about 1.6M votes. So by that logic way more people voted for parties that want to stay in the Union than want to leave.

Even in the Scottish Elections of 2016 more people voted for parties supporting the Union than parties that never.

If it was made clear all the votes would be added up across those that want independence and those that don't then maybe it could work, but it's messy and not what elections are for.

ronaldo7

17-01-2019, 06:13 PM

Absolutely delighted that the SNP administration in Glasgow council have come to an agreement to settle the unfair pay dispute which has been raging for a decade, whilst under labour control.

They've only been in power in Glasgow for 18 months, and have worked tirelessly to achieve fair pay for the women.

Well done to, Susan aitken, whose worked tirelessly on this deal.

Richard Leonard, and the GMB, should hang their heads in shame, for allowing his union to take these women to court, in trying to win their claim

JeMeSouviens

17-01-2019, 06:42 PM

I can maybe see that happening but don't think we should be using elections as referendums. The Unionist vote is split between Labour, Torys and Lib Dems so I don't think it's fair to ask the electorate to treat an election as a referendum.

In the 2017 General Election for example the SNP got the most votes and most seats. They got just under 1,000,000 votes, but if you add up the Unionist party votes they got about 1.6M votes. So by that logic way more people voted for parties that want to stay in the Union than want to leave.

Even in the Scottish Elections of 2016 more people voted for parties supporting the Union than parties that never.

If it was made clear all the votes would be added up across those that want independence and those that don't then maybe it could work, but it's messy and not what elections are for.

To be clear, I mean make having a ref central issue rather than using election as substitute. If S30 still refused then need plan C!

Fife-Hibee

18-01-2019, 10:10 PM

I'm not (entirely) sure UK gov would ship in English riot squads to beat up the population here though.

They wouldn't need to use ships (this time). :wink:

James310

24-01-2019, 05:07 PM

I think this is genuine nonsense.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-government-refuse-to-publish-independence-referendum-legal-advice-1-4861300

They were quick to call out the Tories when they were unwilling to publish the Brexit legal advice and quite rightly made a big issue of it, but they seem content to not publish the IndyRef2 legal advice as its confidential?

How does that work?

Hibrandenburg

24-01-2019, 05:52 PM

James310

24-01-2019, 05:56 PM

Indy Ref 2 is not imminent. I'm sure they will publish when and if it becomes relevant again.

It's not imminent but Nicola Sturgeon says she will tell us her plans in a matter of weeks? It's relevant now. It's total hypocrisy.

Hibrandenburg

24-01-2019, 05:59 PM

It's not immediate but Nicola Sturgeon says she will tell us her plans in a matter of weeks? It's total hypocrisy.

Not really, Brexit is only a couple of weeks away and we've still no idea what that actually means, I'd imagine that the SNP's advice and plans are completely dependant on how Brexit pans out.

James310

24-01-2019, 06:02 PM

Not really, Brexit is only a couple of weeks away and we've still no idea what that actually means, I'd imagine that the SNP's advice and plans are completely dependant on how Brexit pans out.

Well we will need to disagree. It's totally relevant if IndyRef2 plans are to be announced in weeks and it's totally relevant if the plans were based on that legal advice.

Hibrandenburg

24-01-2019, 06:05 PM

Well we will need to disagree. It's totally relevant if IndyRef2 plans are to be announced in weeks and it's totally relevant if the plans were based on that legal advice.

And if that legal advice is based on Brexit???

James310

24-01-2019, 06:10 PM

And if that legal advice is based on Brexit???

Then we see all the possible options and what the different courses of action are. What's to hide?

They can't deride a UK government for not publishing legal advice and then refuse to publish legal advice themselves the next week without criticism of hypocrisy.

Hibrandenburg

24-01-2019, 06:38 PM

Then we see all the possible options and what the different courses of action are. What's to hide?

They can't deride a UK government for not publishing legal advice and then refuse to publish legal advice themselves the next week without criticism of hypocrisy.

Is that not a bit like Lennon naming the team before he knows who is available?

That said it might explain his recent team selections.

James310

24-01-2019, 06:45 PM

Is that not a bit like Lennon naming the team before he knows who is available?

That said it might explain his recent team selections.

Maybe we should demand to see the advice Lennon took for picking that team last night!

They have made no indication this will published at a later day, simply saying its confidential.

There are comparisons to be drawn with the Brexit legal advice and I think it's total hypocrisy.

Moulin Yarns

24-01-2019, 07:33 PM

cabbageandribs1875

24-01-2019, 07:50 PM

The article also says that the confidentiality of legal advice goes back to the days of the labour and libdem coalition. So they only have themselves to blame.

I agree with Hibrandenburg that until the call for a referendum that there is no reason to publish advice.

tbf to the poster he does like to use the word 'hypocrisy' a few times, hypocrisy and Labour go hand-in-hand, as for not giving the public the legal advice...wtf for, unless indyref2 has been announced and i've missed it, darn

marinello59

24-01-2019, 08:15 PM

The article also says that the confidentiality of legal advice goes back to the days of the labour and libdem coalition. So they only have themselves to blame.

I agree with Hibrandenburg that until the call for a referendum that there is no reason to publish advice.

I don’t see any need to publish the advice either. But justifying it by saying it goes back to the days of Labour and the LibDems? All pretence at being different from the other parties has been dropped now then has it? :greengrin

Moulin Yarns

24-01-2019, 09:04 PM

I don’t see any need to publish the advice either. But justifying it by saying it goes back to the days of Labour and the LibDems? All pretence at being different from the other parties has been dropped now then has it? :greengrin

No, but it is a Scottish parliament rule. Set down by a previous administration.

RyeSloan

24-01-2019, 09:17 PM

No, but it is a Scottish parliament rule. Set down by a previous administration.

It’s not a rule, it’s a convention.

This place makes me laugh at the massive flip flopping that goes on.

Bercow gets lauded for breaking conventions, UK govt hammered for not publishing legal advice.

But align the same thoughts to Indy and the SNP and convention should be followed and the SG has every right to keep its legal advice under wraps.

The question seems a rather good one to know the answer to. Does the Lord Advocate belief another referendum could be held without the need for a Section 30?

Not sure I fully understand why only the SG should know the answer to that and everyone else kept in the dark.

Glory Lurker

24-01-2019, 09:31 PM

James310

24-01-2019, 09:42 PM

Chill, chief. The ref hasn’t been called yet.

No, but she clearly has a plan and that plan is based on the advice she has received.

This was last week, so it's due any day.

"Nicola Sturgeon has pledged to set out her plans for a second independence referendum "in the coming weeks" even if the Brexit deadline is extended"

Glory Lurker

24-01-2019, 10:09 PM

No, but she clearly has a plan and that plan is based on the advice she has received.

This was last week, so it's due any day.

"Nicola Sturgeon has pledged to set out her plans for a second independence referendum "in the coming weeks" even if the Brexit deadline is extended"

I frankly don’t know anything about demands for revealing of legal advice, and am just trusting what i’m reading on this thread to be right. So, if it is the case that there is legal advice on whatever it would surely be on the unionist interest to delay its publication, assuming there is confidence that it’s going to spike the ref? Much more of an impact, no?

Personally I don’t think it’s appropriate that any government should have to disclose legal advice. That’s multiplied by a big number when it comes to something the government hasn’t even moved yet.

Jack

24-01-2019, 10:37 PM

It’s not a rule, it’s a convention.

This place makes me laugh at the massive flip flopping that goes on.

Bercow gets lauded for breaking conventions, UK govt hammered for not publishing legal advice.

But align the same thoughts to Indy and the SNP and convention should be followed and the SG has every right to keep its legal advice under wraps.

The question seems a rather good one to know the answer to. Does the Lord Advocate belief another referendum could be held without the need for a Section 30?

Not sure I fully understand why only the SG should know the answer to that and everyone else kept in the dark.

The SNP Government got absolutely hammered during indyref1 for not voluntarily publishing the legal advice they got then.

Having learned that lesson I'm fairly certain any legal advice the current SNP Government has will be couched in terms that can be published in terms that reflect well on it and used at a time to maximum effect.

It's good to learn from mistakes.

It's even better to learn from others mistakes!

Given the arrogance of Westminster governments and their disdain of anything Scottish it's neither wonder Westminster didn't learn.

RyeSloan

24-01-2019, 10:39 PM

Chill, chief. The ref hasn’t been called yet.

Honesty I have no idea why the Ref needs to be called or even one to be likely for it only then be deemed sensible that the legal approach on how one could or should be called be known. Just seems like common sense for that to be understood by all in advance.

Just as it seemed like common sense for the UK gov to publish the legal advice they got on the back stop. That clarified the situation nicely...leading to more confusion and obfuscation of course but hey at least the debate was informed by that knowledge.

And while I can see that there is not always a case for legal advice to be published there is also clearly (to my mind at least) cases where it should. And both of the above examples fall into that category.

Ach anyway just my thoughts, I should be getting to my kip rather than debating such oblique points on .net [emoji2957] [emoji23]

SHODAN

24-01-2019, 10:47 PM

It's going to be no deal with Boris as PM and no matter how much we complain we'll get told we can't have a second referendum as you are never allowed to change your mind even if the country you voted to stay in has shot itself in the head in the space of three years and told us you can do **** all about it. Sooner we accept this, the better.

We'll get another one if and when support for yes goes below 30% and there's no chance we'll win.

Glory Lurker

24-01-2019, 10:58 PM

Honesty I have no idea why the Ref needs to be called or even one to be likely for it only then be deemed sensible that the legal approach on how one could or should be called be known. Just seems like common sense for that to be understood by all in advance.

Just as it seemed like common sense for the UK gov to publish the legal advice they got on the back stop. That clarified the situation nicely...leading to more confusion and obfuscation of course but hey at least the debate was informed by that knowledge.

And while I can see that there is not always a case for legal advice to be published there is also clearly (to my mind at least) cases where it should. And both of the above examples fall into that category.

Ach anyway just my thoughts, I should be getting to my kip rather than debating such oblique points on .net [emoji2957] [emoji23]

Thumbs up! Please see post 1348 over breakfast :greengrin

James310

27-01-2019, 10:16 PM

What did happen to that SNP Growth Commission report anyway? Is it still alive and well or has it been buried.

Fife-Hibee

28-01-2019, 06:54 PM

What did happen to that SNP Growth Commission report anyway? Is it still alive and well or has it been buried.

You mean the report that was released on the 25th of May 2018? :wink:

https://www.sustainablegrowthcommission.scot/report

James310

28-01-2019, 07:14 PM

You mean the report that was released on the 25th of May 2018? :wink:

https://www.sustainablegrowthcommission.scot/report

That's the one, published nearly 9 months ago. Not heard anything despite it being debated and discussed. So what happens next, the SNP website seems to be a bit out of date.

So what happens next?

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has announced that the SNP will hold a series of National Assemblies over the summer to debate and discuss the report’s recommendations ahead of the party’s annual national conference in October.

Each National Assembly will consider a different section of the report and will be chaired by the Depute Leader of the SNP. The assemblies will also hear from people beyond the party, by inviting people along from across civic Scotland and from the wider Yes family.

degenerated

31-01-2019, 11:52 AM

That's the one, published nearly 9 months ago. Not heard anything despite it being debated and discussed. So what happens next, the SNP website seems to be a bit out of date.

So what happens next?

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has announced that the SNP will hold a series of National Assemblies over the summer to debate and discuss the report’s recommendations ahead of the party’s annual national conference in October.

Each National Assembly will consider a different section of the report and will be chaired by the Depute Leader of the SNP. The assemblies will also hear from people beyond the party, by inviting people along from across civic Scotland and from the wider Yes family.

was that the National Assemblies they held in Ayr, Aviemore and Edinburgh in August/September last year where people from civic Scotland and the wider yes family were invited to attend?

Fife-Hibee

31-01-2019, 12:29 PM

was that the National Assemblies they held in Ayr, Aviemore and Edinburgh in August/September last year where people from civic Scotland and the wider yes family were invited to attend?

Aye, but that was ages ago. We haven't heard anything since. :greengrin

RyeSloan

31-01-2019, 01:28 PM

Aye, but that was ages ago. We haven't heard anything since. :greengrin

£9.5m down the swanny....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-business-47000453

It’s not clear if that figure includes the support given by social investment Scotland which I assume is sone sort of government backed quango.

Interesting to note that this failure was originally backed with £3.5m in 2015 so has had millions more shovelled in since.

https://news.gov.scot/news/power-to-the-people

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Fife-Hibee

31-01-2019, 01:33 PM

£9.5m down the swanny....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-business-47000453

It’s not clear if that figure includes the support given by social investment Scotland which I assume is sone sort of government backed quango.

Interesting to note that this failure was originally backed with £3.5m in 2015 so has had millions more shovelled in since.

https://news.gov.scot/news/power-to-the-people

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're more concerned about the loss of 9.5 million over the 14 billion or so in cuts that Scotland is going to be faced with every year, just so England can relive it's imperialistic fantasies.

marinello59

31-01-2019, 01:54 PM

You're more concerned about the loss of 9.5 million over the 14 billion or so in cuts that Scotland is going to be faced with every year, just so England can relive it's imperialistic fantasies.

Aye, let’s just put the £9.5 million down to the SNP getting on with the day job. :thumbsup:

Fife-Hibee

31-01-2019, 02:02 PM

Aye, let’s just put the £9.5 million down to the SNP getting on with the day job. :thumbsup:

I'm not saying they don't deserve to take a ribbing for this. 9.5 million is a lot of money.

It just seems to be more than 14 billion for a lot of people. :greengrin

ronaldo7

31-01-2019, 02:22 PM

Mon the greens. #budget

marinello59

31-01-2019, 02:34 PM

Mon the greens. #budget

You can always count on the Green Branch of the SNP to help out. :greengrin

Its a good deal, delighted to see real pressure being put on the Government to finally deliver on local tax reform. Aiming to replace Council Tax before the end of the next parliament puts a realistic timescale on something that is well overdue. Well played by the Greens. And the SNP.

Fife-Hibee

31-01-2019, 02:44 PM

Mon the greens. #budget

Heads already detonating over social media. :greengrin

Excellent trolling from the Scottish Greens over these past several days, I must say. :cb

weecounty hibby

31-01-2019, 06:57 PM

You can always count on the Green Branch of the SNP to help out. :greengrin

Its a good deal, delighted to see real pressure being put on the Government to finally deliver on local tax reform. Aiming to replace Council Tax before the end of the next parliament puts a realistic timescale on something that is well overdue. Well played by the Greens. And the SNP.
It's how the Scottish parliament was designed to work. Well done those who worked together to pass a decent budget. What a shame that others didn't want to even talk and try to be constructive unless indyref2 was taken away as an option.

Fife-Hibee

31-01-2019, 07:18 PM

It's how the Scottish parliament was designed to work. Well done those who worked together to pass a decent budget. What a shame that others didn't want to even talk and try to be constructive unless indyref2 was taken away as an option.

Not only that, but whinging about this "damaging" budget, while failing to put forward any alternative proposals of their own. Well except Labours "give councils more money" proposal, without explaining where they think the cuts should fall in order to fund the increase.

Fife-Hibee

31-01-2019, 08:33 PM

https://i.ibb.co/tJ2tbKk/libdumbs.png

:na na:

Ozyhibby

01-02-2019, 08:19 AM

You can always count on the Green Branch of the SNP to help out. :greengrin

Its a good deal, delighted to see real pressure being put on the Government to finally deliver on local tax reform. Aiming to replace Council Tax before the end of the next parliament puts a realistic timescale on something that is well overdue. Well played by the Greens. And the SNP.

How are they going to replace council tax? More income tax?

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Pretty Boy

01-02-2019, 08:33 AM

Another tax to park my car at work or use our unfit for purpose train service. Happy days:rolleyes:

RyeSloan

01-02-2019, 08:49 AM

How are they going to replace council tax? More income tax?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No I’d assume it will still be a ‘property’ tax of some sort. Most probably a variation of a LVT.

RyeSloan

01-02-2019, 08:50 AM

I'm not saying they don't deserve to take a ribbing for this. 9.5 million is a lot of money.

It just seems to be more than 14 billion for a lot of people. :greengrin

Your £14bn isn’t a real figure though is it?

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Fife-Hibee

01-02-2019, 10:58 AM

Another tax to park my car at work or use our unfit for purpose train service. Happy days:rolleyes:

You're not the one paying the tax, your employer is. I really hope this isn't another policy that people frown upon because they don't even understand how it works. :rolleyes:

Fife-Hibee

01-02-2019, 11:00 AM

Your £14bn isn’t a real figure though is it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh no. 14 billion is a real figure. It just takes considerably longer to count to than 9.5 million. :wink:

CropleyWasGod

01-02-2019, 11:02 AM

You're not the one paying the tax, your employer is. I really hope this isn't another policy that people frown upon because they don't even understand how it works. :rolleyes:

It's not even mandatory. The proposal is to give Councils the power to charge that levy.

ronaldo7

01-02-2019, 11:21 AM

It's not even mandatory. The proposal is to give Councils the power to charge that levy.

That cannae be right.:greengrin

The centralist, SNP, and Greens, giving power to local councils to tax as they please. Shirley not.

Ozyhibby

01-02-2019, 12:54 PM

No I’d assume it will still be a ‘property’ tax of some sort. Most probably a variation of a LVT.

Should be interesting. Council tax has survived so long because changing would be very difficult. It’s a tax based on an asset that does not generate any income (family home). The problem is that there are lots of low income people living in large homes. And these people vote.
I have my doubts that this will go anywhere.

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RyeSloan

01-02-2019, 02:11 PM

Should be interesting. Council tax has survived so long because changing would be very difficult. It’s a tax based on an asset that does not generate any income (family home). The problem is that there are lots of low income people living in large homes. And these people vote.
I have my doubts that this will go anywhere.

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I’m no expert on LTV and there can be many flavours but I think those ‘large home / low income’ types would be winners.

Effectively the tax is set on the land not what sits on it. So a large out of town pile would be taxed lower than a small centre of town 2 bed house, which in turn would be taxed exactly the same as the empty plot of the same size sitting next to it.

Gets a bit confusing I suppose as location drives building values as much as size so a straight conversion from property value to land value is difficult but on balance I think LTV may well be ‘fairer’ and is often easier to impose on the correct person as land ownership is easier to track than property residence.

Anyway glad I’m not having to come up with the answer!!

jonty

01-02-2019, 02:53 PM

I’m no expert on LTV and there can be many flavours but I think those ‘large home / low income’ types would be winners.

Effectively the tax is set on the land not what sits on it. So a large out of town pile would be taxed lower than a small centre of town 2 bed house, which in turn would be taxed exactly the same as the empty plot of the same size sitting next to it.

Gets a bit confusing I suppose as location drives building values as much as size so a straight conversion from property value to land value is difficult but on balance I think LTV may well be ‘fairer’ and is often easier to impose on the correct person as land ownership is easier to track than property residence.

Anyway glad I’m not having to come up with the answer!!
Pay for what you use. or is that just too simple.

marinello59

01-02-2019, 02:54 PM

That cannae be right.:greengrin

The centralist, SNP, and Greens, giving power to local councils to tax as they please. Shirley not.

I wouldn’t accuse the Greens of being centralist. That’s why it’s good to see them pressure the centralist SNP to move on this.

marinello59

01-02-2019, 02:58 PM

How are they going to replace council tax? More income tax?

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That has to be decided and I hope all parties at Holyrood come up with ideas. I’d personally favour a local income tax but it would take a brave Government to implement that.

ronaldo7

01-02-2019, 03:01 PM

I wouldn’t accuse the Greens of being centralist. That’s why it’s good to see them pressure the centralist SNP to move on this.

I was happy to see both parties take a responsible attitude to the budget, and getting the council tax changes back on the agenda is a bonus. We tried before, and in a minority gov were brought down by the Britnat parties. This time round it might be different.

degenerated

01-02-2019, 03:30 PM

That has to be decided and I hope all parties at Holyrood come up with ideas. I’d personally favour a local income tax but it would take a brave Government to implement that.

Having seen James Kellys performance in Holyrood yesterday I wouldn't hold out much hope of Labour coming up with many ideas. If he's one of their top team it speaks volumes for just how bad a state they are really in.

RyeSloan

01-02-2019, 03:43 PM

Pay for what you use. or is that just too simple.

Kind of, I think!

Or maybe pay for how much land you own and where rather than what happens to be on that land..

Local government funding needs a serious overhaul that’s for sure but it’s a bit of a sticky subject (hence why so frequently punted into the long grass) so it will be interesting to see how this progresses.

marinello59

01-02-2019, 03:46 PM

I was happy to see both parties take a responsible attitude to the budget, and getting the council tax changes back on the agenda is a bonus. We tried before, and in a minority gov were brought down by the Britnat parties. This time round it might be different.

The SNP had a majority Goverment after the 2011 election. Council tax reform was still SNP policy. They did nothing.

Ozyhibby

01-02-2019, 03:56 PM

ronaldo7

01-02-2019, 04:18 PM

The SNP had a majority Goverment after the 2011 election. Council tax reform was still SNP policy. They did nothing.

We had more pressing things to deal with. Priorities old boy, priorities.

marinello59

01-02-2019, 04:54 PM

We had more pressing things to deal with. Priorities old boy, priorities.

It was a manifesto commitment. It was on a huge poster. :faf:

Wasn’t it just last year that the SNP teamed up with the Tories to vote the Green parties proposals to ditch the Council tax down?

ronaldo7

01-02-2019, 07:02 PM

marinello59

01-02-2019, 07:54 PM

Wasn't that a council tax freeze?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-13083953

It was for a council tax freeze during the five year lifetime of the Parliament with a promise to reform local tax for the 2016 Parliament.

“We will continue the Council Tax freeze throughout this Parliament. Over the period of the next Parliament we will consult with others to produce a fairer system based on ability to pay to replace the Council Tax and we will put this to the people at the next election”

McD

01-02-2019, 08:03 PM

Kind of, I think!

Or maybe pay for how much land you own and where rather than what happens to be on that land..

Local government funding needs a serious overhaul that’s for sure but it’s a bit of a sticky subject (hence why so frequently punted into the long grass) so it will be interesting to see how this progresses.

Forgive me if I’m being thick, or perhaps too literal, if paying for how much land you own, where do folk who rent (ie, not owners) fit into that?

RyeSloan

01-02-2019, 08:26 PM

Forgive me if I’m being thick, or perhaps too literal, if paying for how much land you own, where do folk who rent (ie, not owners) fit into that?

Aha I’m no expert but the owner of the land is liable not those that rent the property...in practice the tax will be passed on in the rent payable for the use of the property no doubt.

But as I said no expert and believe that it can be implanted in different ways.

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CropleyWasGod

01-02-2019, 08:28 PM

ronaldo7

01-02-2019, 08:29 PM

It was for a council tax freeze during the five year lifetime of the Parliament with a promise to reform local tax for the 2016 Parliament.

“We will continue the Council Tax freeze throughout this Parliament. Over the period of the next Parliament we will consult with others to produce a fairer system based on ability to pay to replace the Council Tax and we will put this to the people at the next election”

"The SNP would reform the council tax so the higher bands pay more, unless the household earns less than £25,000."

Tinkered round the edges, and it certainly wasn't major in the band increases, but a change nevertheless.:greengrin

marinello59

01-02-2019, 08:42 PM

"The SNP would reform the council tax so the higher bands pay more, unless the household earns less than £25,000."

Tinkered round the edges, and it certainly wasn't major in the band increases, but a change nevertheless.:greengrin

At least you aren’t claiming it was anywhere near what was promised which was replacing the Council tax. :greengrin

RyeSloan

01-02-2019, 09:00 PM

What about those that live, either owning or renting, on the 22nd floor?

What am I? The LVT helpline? [emoji12]

I assume the value of the land is then apportioned accordingly to the number of owners of it. Again the tax is on the land not the property so I assume the owner of the penthouse at the top is laughing as he splits it evenly with the riff raff in the one bed flats that hold him up....

But as I say (again again [emoji2957]) I’m no expert so I’m not sure and such things may well be one of LVT’s challenges...

Although that said LVT is in place in a number of countries around the world so it’s not an untried methodology.

Fife-Hibee

01-02-2019, 10:50 PM

Having seen James Kellys performance in Holyrood yesterday I wouldn't hold out much hope of Labour coming up with many ideas. If he's one of their top team it speaks volumes for just how bad a state they are really in.

Just incase anybody missed it. :greengrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31EsHh4szrQ

I do wonder if he is ever actually sober. Or looking to take the George Foulkes route into the House of Lords.

allmodcons

01-02-2019, 10:56 PM

The SNP had a majority Goverment after the 2011 election. Council tax reform was still SNP policy. They did nothing.

I not sure that's correct. Their 2007 manifesto promised to reform the council tax but they couldn't get a majority to support their proposal. I could be wrong but I think the 2011 manifesto was somewhat watered down and only promised to 'review' the council tax.

Fife-Hibee

01-02-2019, 10:59 PM

It was a manifesto commitment. It was on a huge poster. :faf:

Wasn’t it just last year that the SNP teamed up with the Tories to vote the Green parties proposals to ditch the Council tax down?

Of course it was voted down. The Greens wanted to ditch the council tax, but no tested alternative had been put forward. The SNP would have been mental to go along with it. New taxation systems need to be tried and tested on small scales before they're rolled out everywhere. Rolling out an untested system would be hugely irresponsible for any government.

Also, i'm sure not getting everything that was pledged in the devolution settlement also played a role in their decision not to scrap the Council Tax system so soon.

Ozyhibby

01-02-2019, 11:07 PM

Aha I’m no expert but the owner of the land is liable not those that rent the property...in practice the tax will be passed on in the rent payable for the use of the property no doubt.

But as I said no expert and believe that it can be implanted in different ways.

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End user (or sometimes the state) always pays for all the costs and taxes in any product.
One of the reasons rents have been rising recently has been landlords passing on recent tax rises imposed on them.

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Jack

01-02-2019, 11:41 PM

Pay for what you use. or is that just too simple.

Far too simple!

Just as a wee example those who don't have children will need to have the next generation educated to service your needs. People become old and reliant on local government services. You pay for today's old folk the young folk will pay for you in the future etc.. At least that's the plan.

Fife-Hibee

01-02-2019, 11:50 PM

Jack

02-02-2019, 06:54 AM

Young people are really paying the price for todays old folk. They're making damn well sure of it. :wink:

Once upon a time old people were young people you know! :-)

ronaldo7

02-02-2019, 08:56 AM

At least you aren’t claiming it was anywhere near what was promised which was replacing the Council tax. :greengrin

I also know the difference between, reform, and replace.✌

lapsedhibee

02-02-2019, 10:41 AM

Scottish Govt has announced that smoke and heat alarms in all homes will be required from 2021.

How will they enforce that? :dunno:

Fife-Hibee

02-02-2019, 10:48 AM

Scottish Govt has announced that smoke and heat alarms in all homes will be required from 2021.

How will they enforce that? :dunno:

The same way the bloody nanny state SNP allow people into our homes to read our gas meters! :grr:

lapsedhibee

02-02-2019, 11:04 AM

The same way the bloody nanny state SNP allow people into our homes to read our gas meters! :grr:
Not the same thing at all. If you have gas in your home you have contracted with a gas company to pay for it, and reading meters is a part of that process. If the government is going to hire people to go round checking people's houses for the presence of heat/CO/smoke alarm systems, and presumably also that they work, that'll cost a fortune. And who's going to pay - Mexico?

PeeJay

02-02-2019, 11:22 AM

Not the same thing at all. If you have gas in your home you have contracted with a gas company to pay for it, and reading meters is a part of that process. If the government is going to hire people to go round checking people's houses for the presence of heat/CO/smoke alarm systems, and presumably also that they work, that'll cost a fortune. And who's going to pay - Mexico?

Maybe it will be regulated through the house insurance policy? If your home has a fire and you claim for damage, but there was no smoke alarm fitted, your claim may be rejected ... can't imagine people walking round looking to see if one is fitted :confused:

GlesgaeHibby

02-02-2019, 11:36 AM

The SNP had a majority Goverment after the 2011 election. Council tax reform was still SNP policy. They did nothing.

Correct. Also probably why neither Labour or Tories down south have changed council tax (either through reform, increase in number of bands, and revaluation) given that there will be winners and losers. And the losers will make a fuss and probably remember it at the ballot box.

lapsedhibee

02-02-2019, 11:38 AM

Maybe it will be regulated through the house insurance policy? If your home has a fire and you claim for damage, but there was no smoke alarm fitted, your claim may be rejected ... can't imagine people walking round looking to see if one is fitted :confused:

Perhaps, but introducing a requirement to have smoke alarms shirley only makes sense if some sort of attempt to ensure that they work follows. I can foresee all the current requirements on rented properties - annual gas safety checks, PAT tests on anything with a plug on it, etc etc etc - being imported into ordinary homes. A scheme which might then pay for itself, as that's £££loads for every house in the country.

Fife-Hibee

02-02-2019, 11:58 AM

Not the same thing at all. If you have gas in your home you have contracted with a gas company to pay for it, and reading meters is a part of that process. If the government is going to hire people to go round checking people's houses for the presence of heat/CO/smoke alarm systems, and presumably also that they work, that'll cost a fortune. And who's going to pay - Mexico?

You do realize I was joking?

On another note...

Nottingham nonsense! :grr:

https://bettertransport.org.uk/blog/better-transport/winning-policy-nottinghams-workplace-parking-levy

speedy_gonzales

02-02-2019, 01:27 PM

You do realize I was joking?

On another note...

Nottingham nonsense! :grr:

https://bettertransport.org.uk/blog/better-transport/winning-policy-nottinghams-workplace-parking-levy
Is it nonsense though? If an employer provides parking for its employees then it's a perk. Perks are taxable (BIK's).
Not every employer provides parking. Not every employee parks/drives.
Maybe, rather than taxing those that drive/park, reward those that don't. S'pose that would be treated with equal contempt.

Just Alf

02-02-2019, 02:50 PM

Maybe it will be regulated through the house insurance policy? If your home has a fire and you claim for damage, but there was no smoke alarm fitted, your claim may be rejected ... can't imagine people walking round looking to see if one is fitted :confused:I think you've hit the nail on the head... My house was built in 2000 and meets the regs as all new builds since (not sure how long before then the legislation was in place), so in theory we're looking at "older" properties, if you want to have valid insurance then you need to have suitable/certified alarms... A bit like car insurance where not having a valid MOT is a get out of jail card for the insurer.

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jonty

02-02-2019, 08:02 PM

Far too simple!

Just as a wee example those who don't have children will need to have the next generation educated to service your needs. People become old and reliant on local government services. You pay for today's old folk the young folk will pay for you in the future etc.. At least that's the plan.
Charge extra for needing a school place (if you can get one).
But its based on the number you need, not the number of bedrooms you have, or windows in your house (its not like the council washes them).
Charge for the plot of land you have regardless if its a one bedroom bungalow with massive gardens, or a 5 bed house with double garage and no garden to speak of.
Refuse collection should be charged per bin/uplift. Suitable waste for recycling could be sold to the council/private company and potentially offset refuse collection costs.
Each council could have a menu of charges :greengrin

Then again, it might explain why i always fail at sim city then.

Seriously though. I never really understood the principal of the single-person 25% discount on council tax. The theory was you used less services as a single person. Shouldn't then, a family of 3 who are fortunate to live in a large home be given a discount compared to a family of 5 in an identical home?

allmodcons

02-02-2019, 08:10 PM

Bring back the Glass Tax.

With the amount of open plan new builds, glass fronted properties and conservatories these days councils could be raking it in.

McD

03-02-2019, 09:11 AM

Is it nonsense though? If an employer provides parking for its employees then it's a perk. Perks are taxable (BIK's).
Not every employer provides parking. Not every employee parks/drives.
Maybe, rather than taxing those that drive/park, reward those that don't. S'pose that would be treated with equal contempt.

Its not always a perk.

the bus routes that go anywhere near my work have been removed, so driving there is the only sensible option for many. My employer encourages and incentivises car sharing, and even run a bus at their own expense to local train station. Why should I be taxed more in order to work and pay taxes on my wages, especially when there are no public transport options?

On broader notes (not a dig at you SG):

Would any potential taxes raised from this be put to green uses (since it’s dressed as reducing emissions etc), or into the general council coffers, which means it’s not being done for green purposes, and is really just another way to hammer the motorist?

also, what happens if a business is taxed per parking space, and is so successful in encouraging staff to use public transport that not a single car is in their car park? Are they still taxed regardless?

Its a completely shortsighted policy (if it comes into force).

Fife-Hibee

03-02-2019, 01:07 PM

Why should I be taxed more

You're not.

CropleyWasGod

03-02-2019, 02:36 PM

Fife-Hibee

03-02-2019, 03:04 PM

Providing free parking for employees isn't taxable of itself. It's only taxable if it's chosen as part of a salary-sacrifice scheme, ie where the employee chooses the parking in place of the equivalent cash.

Surely they don't have to accept the salary-sacrifice scheme, as their right to park there as a member of staff will already exist in their current contract?

CropleyWasGod

03-02-2019, 03:10 PM

Surely they don't have to accept the salary-sacrifice scheme, as their right to park there as a member of staff will already exist in their current contract?

They don't have to take the SS option . They can take the cash, and be taxed on it.

degenerated

03-02-2019, 04:29 PM

Just incase anybody missed it. :greengrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31EsHh4szrQ

I do wonder if he is ever actually sober. Or looking to take the George Foulkes route into the House of Lords.That guy is an absolute balloon.utterly clueless.

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McD

03-02-2019, 06:32 PM

You're not.

If it comes into force, and my employer passes on that cost to it’s employees, therefore costing me more, I’m being taxed indirectly

CropleyWasGod

03-02-2019, 06:49 PM

If it comes into force, and my employer passes on that cost to it’s employees, therefore costing me more, I’m being taxed indirectly

Is that not the point, though?

It's partly designed to encourage businesses and individuals to consider their environmental practices. If it reduces the use of cars in cities, so much the better IMO.

The other reason for its introduction is to allow Councils to raise more cash. That has an effect on (either or both) of the amount of our Council Tax, and the services that we use.

Fife-Hibee

05-02-2019, 12:36 PM

If it comes into force, and my employer passes on that cost to it’s employees, therefore costing me more, I’m being taxed indirectly

Will you accept the wage cut?

McD

05-02-2019, 09:22 PM

Will you accept the wage cut?

Wage cut?

Fife-Hibee

05-02-2019, 10:14 PM

Wage cut?

How else is your employer going to pass the cost onto you?

Tornadoes70

05-02-2019, 11:30 PM

Is that not the point, though?

It's partly designed to encourage businesses and individuals to consider their environmental practices. If it reduces the use of cars in cities, so much the better IMO.

The other reason for its introduction is to allow Councils to raise more cash. That has an effect on (either or both) of the amount of our Council Tax, and the services that we use.

Reducing and banning cars from the high streets is a hard hitting negative to city and town center businesses. Yet another nail in the coffin for shopping in city and town centers.

Fife-Hibee

05-02-2019, 11:45 PM

Reducing and banning cars from the high streets is a hard hitting negative to city and town center businesses. Yet another nail in the coffin for shopping in city and town centers.

Can't see there being too much shoppiing beyond the internet after Brexit tbh. All the major stores are dropping like flies.

Tornadoes70

05-02-2019, 11:49 PM

Can't see there being too much shoppiing beyond the internet after Brexit tbh. All the major stores are dropping like flies.

Can't help though when councils and governments put the boot in with hugely increased direct business tax and indirect disincentive taxes.

No matter how you spin them or diss them, we're actually talking about folks livelihoods and incomes here.

Hey just shrug your shoulders, who cares aye.

Couldnae give one as long as we get indy aye.

Aye.

CropleyWasGod

06-02-2019, 12:16 AM

Reducing and banning cars from the high streets is a hard hitting negative to city and town center businesses. Yet another nail in the coffin for shopping in city and town centers.

The proposed car-park levies are on workplace car-parks. Nothing to do with shopping.

SHODAN

06-02-2019, 09:16 AM

Another blow to those of us who can't/don't want to live in the city and therefore can't rely on public transport to get to work/would spend £100000000000000 (+3% per annum) on trains.

CropleyWasGod

06-02-2019, 10:04 AM

Another blow to those of us who can't/don't want to live in the city and therefore can't rely on public transport to get to work/would spend £100000000000000 (+3% per annum) on trains.

It's not compulsory, though.

And, as has been said, it would be levied on the employer, not the staff.

Fife-Hibee

06-02-2019, 10:42 AM

Can't help though when councils and governments put the boot in with hugely increased direct business tax and indirect disincentive taxes.

No matter how you spin them or diss them, we're actually talking about folks livelihoods and incomes here.

Hey just shrug your shoulders, who cares aye.

Couldnae give one as long as we get indy aye.

Aye.

You think the taxation policies are bad now? Just how bad do you think they're going to be when the Scottish Government needs to find another way to make up nearly half of it's budget?

We're in this mess because we're still in the UK.

It's not compulsory, though.

And, as has been said, it would be levied on the employer, not the staff.

Aye, but the employers will "somehow" pass the expense onto their employees. Just don't expect anybody complaining to tell you what that "somehow" is. :wink:

CropleyWasGod

06-02-2019, 10:46 AM

You think the taxation policies are bad now? Just how bad do you think they're going to be when the Scottish Government needs to find another way to make up nearly half of it's budget?

We're in this mess because we're still in the UK.

Aye, but the employers will "somehow" pass the expense onto their employees. Just don't expect anybody complaining to tell you what that "somehow" is. :wink:

It is not compulsory.

Every council will take the decision on a number of factors, be they political, social, financial, environmental. Much of the power here is in the hands of the (PR-based) electorate.

James310

06-02-2019, 12:26 PM

Fife-Hibee

06-02-2019, 01:14 PM

DEREK Mackay has admitted signing up to a new Scottish ‘car tax’ without carrying out any economic analysis of how it would work.

The Finance Secretary said the SNP government only agreed to support the Green proposal for a Workplace Parking Levy as a “necessary budget concession” for 2019/20.

I think we'll all well aware that none of the other parties were serious about getting the budget through. Things like "give up your main party policy" were never going to be taken seriously.

Will be interesting to see what the parties who are doing the most complaining about this do at council level.

Ozyhibby

06-02-2019, 03:00 PM

Some Tory nonsense.
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1435315-scots-tory-mp-led-away-by-police-from-commons-bar/

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Moulin Yarns

06-02-2019, 03:10 PM

Some Tory nonsense.
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1435315-scots-tory-mp-led-away-by-police-from-commons-bar/

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Wow. What a sleezeball

degenerated

06-02-2019, 04:29 PM

Wow. What a sleezeballAny time I've seen him on tv he looks absolutely wired. Mps should definitely be subject to random drugs testing.

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McD

06-02-2019, 05:14 PM

How else is your employer going to pass the cost onto you?

You think the taxation policies are bad now? Just how bad do you think they're going to be when the Scottish Government needs to find another way to make up nearly half of it's budget?

We're in this mess because we're still in the UK.

Aye, but the employers will "somehow" pass the expense onto their employees. Just don't expect anybody complaining to tell you what that "somehow" is. :wink:

Heres a couple of ways an employer could choose to pass the expense on:

- you need to pay a fee to park your car in the employer’s carpark, daily/weekly/monthly/annually
- you need to purchase a pass to access the employer’s carpark
- institute a salary sacrifice to allow you to pay to park in the employer’s carpark

sorry to burst your bubble about people complaining but not suggesting how it could happen, it’s really not difficult to find a way to ‘somehow’ pass it on :wink:

James310

17-02-2019, 08:22 PM

Fife-Hibee

18-02-2019, 12:59 PM

Key meetings deleted from diaries with no explanation. No minutes kept when the FM meets Alex Salmond with her Cheif of Staff present. Now they 'can't say' if emails sent by Alex Salmond to Nicola Sturgeon were received as they don't keep logs of emails received. (surely any decent IT department could find these emails)

Nothing to see here.

Oh and let's appoint a friend of the FM who served in Alex Salmonds government to lead the 'independent' investigation.

Seems to be a case of records not being kept in the first place. Not quite the same as "losing the papers" during an attempted investigation.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/politics/2018/11/19/858_theresamay_presser_19nov_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVz uuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg?imwid th=450

James310

18-02-2019, 02:53 PM

Seems to be a case of records not being kept in the first place. Not quite the same as "losing the papers" during an attempted investigation.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/politics/2018/11/19/858_theresamay_presser_19nov_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVz uuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg?imwid th=450

As I said nothing to see, move on etc. The Tories have done worse so it's all OK.

JeMeSouviens

18-02-2019, 03:06 PM

As I said nothing to see, move on etc. The Tories have done worse so it's all OK.

Can you not just wait for the trial and then whatever the outcome you can tell us all why whether Salmond is guilty or innocent that independence would be a disaster and being in the Brexited UK is ****ing marvellous. :rolleyes:

Fife-Hibee

18-02-2019, 03:15 PM

As I said nothing to see, move on etc. The Tories have done worse so it's all OK.

Last I checked, there was an on going investigation with Alex Salmond being formally charged.

It would be interesting to see which political figures would be charged south of the border if it wasn't rife with corruption. I would hazard a bet that it wouldn't only be tory MPs.

James310

18-02-2019, 04:35 PM

Can you not just wait for the trial and then whatever the outcome you can tell us all why whether Salmond is guilty or innocent that independence would be a disaster and being in the Brexited UK is ****ing marvellous. :rolleyes:

The criminal trial of AS is not the same as the SNPs own investigation into the handling of the issue. He will be found guilty or not guilty in a court of law. The SNPs own investigation is a supposedly 'independent' enquiry, headed up by the FMs friend and member of AS government at the time. So even before its begun you question why appoint such a person with that background.

The case of the missing emails does not wash, I am sure any IT consultant could quickly find out if an email sent from AS to NS was received in her inbox and opened or not. The excuse of no logs were kept sounds wishy washy.

The case of deleting meetings from diaries with no explanation why and then arranging meeting between AS and NS with no minutes being taken is also a strange one, if it was a personal meeting why was the Cheif of Staff present.

Having a FM and her husband as the Cheif Executive of the party does also not look particularly clever in cases like this where it could br suggested a cover up is more likely due to their close relationship.

Let’s see what comes out in the wash though.

Brexit is a disaster, it is like cutting off your arm. Independence would be like cutting off your other arm as well.

Smartie

18-02-2019, 07:32 PM

The criminal trial of AS is not the same as the SNPs own investigation into the handling of the issue. He will be found guilty or not guilty in a court of law. The SNPs own investigation is a supposedly 'independent' enquiry, headed up by the FMs friend and member of AS government at the time. So even before its begun you question why appoint such a person with that background.

The case of the missing emails does not wash, I am sure any IT consultant could quickly find out if an email sent from AS to NS was received in her inbox and opened or not. The excuse of no logs were kept sounds wishy washy.

The case of deleting meetings from diaries with no explanation why and then arranging meeting between AS and NS with no minutes being taken is also a strange one, if it was a personal meeting why was the Cheif of Staff present.

Having a FM and her husband as the Cheif Executive of the party does also not look particularly clever in cases like this where it could br suggested a cover up is more likely due to their close relationship.

Let’s see what comes out in the wash though.

Brexit is a disaster, it is like cutting off your arm. Independence would be like cutting off your other arm as well.

The Salmond situation is a strange one. I can't imagine there would have been much of a protocol put in place for the First Minister being accused of sexual assault? I'm pretty sure a number of shortcomings will be exposed but we'll all wait to find out how deliberate or otherwise they might have been. Your obvious relish at a situation that may well have several victims who have been badly affected by the whole affair is pretty distasteful if unsurprising. It's refreshing that the majority of the posters on here who are against independence are choosing not to get too involved in this.

And yes, Brexit is like cutting your arm off. Independence would be like attempting experimental surgery with a replacement robotic arm - it might work, it might not. If it works you might be able to carry on as well as before or better, however you'd have to be prepared that the new robotic arm might rip off your other arm, legs, head and tadger. It's personal choice I suppose whether or not you'd prefer to just carry on without your arm or try something to improve your lot.

One Day Soon

18-02-2019, 07:36 PM

The Salmond situation is a strange one. I can't imagine there would have been much of a protocol put in place for the First Minister being accused of sexual assault? I'm pretty sure a number of shortcomings will be exposed but we'll all wait to find out how deliberate or otherwise they might have been. Your obvious relish at a situation that may well have several victims who have been badly affected by the whole affair is pretty distasteful if unsurprising. It's refreshing that the majority of the posters on here who are against independence are choosing not to get too involved in this.

And yes, Brexit is like cutting your arm off. Independence would be like attempting experimental surgery with a replacement robotic arm - it might work, it might not. If it works you might be able to carry on as well as before or better, however you'd have to be prepared that the new robotic arm might rip off your other arm, legs, head and tadger. It's personal choice I suppose whether or not you'd prefer to just carry on without your arm or try something to improve your lot.

I mean, I wasn't too keen on independence in the first place but now...:shocked:

Mibbes Aye

18-02-2019, 07:40 PM

I mean, I wasn't too keen on independence in the first place but now...:shocked:

:faf:

Fife-Hibee

18-02-2019, 07:47 PM

Where as for us independence supporters, it's more like cutting off your tadger and replacing it with one that the missus is actually satisfied with. :wink:

One Day Soon

18-02-2019, 07:52 PM

Where as for us independence supporters, it's more like cutting off your tadger and replacing it with one that the missus is actually satisfied with. :wink:

Mate, we've seen the numbers. You're promising her 8 inches, but 3 inches of that is someone else's **ck.

CropleyWasGod

18-02-2019, 07:55 PM

Mate, we've seen the numbers. You're promising her 8 inches, but 3 inches of that is someone else's **ck.

..and the most powerful part is Green.

One Day Soon

18-02-2019, 07:56 PM

..and the most powerful part is Green.

Well you just won .net for 2019 as far as I'm concerned. :top marks

Smartie

18-02-2019, 08:00 PM

..and the most powerful part is Green.

:faf:

Surely the gags about the pros and cons of lopping off lumps of one's self should be taking place on the Labour thread, today of all days?

Fife-Hibee

18-02-2019, 08:07 PM

..and the most powerful part is Green.

:hilarious

JeMeSouviens

19-02-2019, 12:02 PM

I mean, I wasn't too keen on independence in the first place but now...:shocked:

C'mon, where's your sense of adventure? :greengrin

Fife-Hibee

21-02-2019, 07:34 PM

JeMeSouviens

21-02-2019, 08:09 PM

Teachers union in Scotland rejects the 9% payrise offer, despite already getting the highest wage in the UK. They'll now take it back to the devolved administration in Scotland, who's budget is directly dependent on spending in England and Wales.

But it's not political at all, honest.

9% over 3 years with some fiddling of their grades. With the real terms cut all public sector workers have had to put up with for years, do you blame them?

James310

21-02-2019, 08:17 PM

Teachers union in Scotland rejects the 9% payrise offer, despite already getting the highest wage in the UK. They'll now take it back to the devolved administration in Scotland, who's budget is directly dependent on spending in England and Wales.

But it's not political at all, honest.

What do you mean political? Are you saying its somehow having a go at the SNP?

Fife-Hibee

21-02-2019, 08:47 PM

9% over 3 years with some fiddling of their grades. With the real terms cut all public sector workers have had to put up with for years, do you blame them?

Teachers deserve better pay. However, I don't know why (well actually I do) they're targetting the devolved administration in Scotland which is already bending over backwards to ensure they continue to get the best pay deal in the whole of the UK. Despite funding availability being fully dependant on spending south of the border.

Why are there no teacher union disputes in Wales under the Labour administration there? Not strange or suspicious at all....

What do you mean political? Are you saying its somehow having a go at the SNP?

They're targetting a devolved administration who's budget is dependant on spending south of the border, despite already getting the best pay deal in the UK with the commitment to further rises ahead of the rest of the UK.

Let's be honest, they're not going to agree to any wage deal that's possible under the current financial restraints of the Scottish Parliament. It's not in their politics to do so.

James310

21-02-2019, 08:50 PM

Teachers deserve better pay. However, I don't know why (well actually I do) they're targetting the devolved administration in Scotland which is already bending over backwards to ensure they continue to get the best pay deal in the whole of the UK. Despite funding availability being fully dependant on spending south of the border.

Why are there no teacher union disputes in Wales under the Labour administration there? Not strange or suspicious at all....

They're targetting a devolved administration who's budget is dependant on spending south of the border, despite already getting the best pay deal in the UK with the commitment to further rises ahead of the rest of the UK.

Let's be honest, they're not going to agree to any wage deal that's possible under the current financial restraints of the Scottish Parliament. It's not in their politics to do so.

Why did the other teachers unions accept it then? On the face of it 9% seems generous.

Moulin Yarns

21-02-2019, 08:52 PM

9% over 3 years with some fiddling of their grades. With the real terms cut all public sector workers have had to put up with for years, do you blame them?

Imagine if local authorities could raise more funds themselves? Maybe a levy on employers with large car parks would help?

Radium

21-02-2019, 08:53 PM

9% over 3 years with some fiddling of their grades. With the real terms cut all public sector workers have had to put up with for years, do you blame them?

https://www.gov.scot/publications/teacher-pay-scales/

When you see what has been offered, yes.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190221/34be0808d87ba0e0d8dbdc21c97dc5e6.jpg

Probationary salary in line with other professionals. Jump to £28k and £37.5 four years later. The fiddling with grades means that they are £3k per year better off at point 5 compared to now.

But they have only got 9%! and want 10%.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

marinello59

21-02-2019, 08:55 PM

Teachers deserve better pay. However, I don't know why (well actually I do) they're targetting the devolved administration in Scotland which is already bending over backwards to ensure they continue to get the best pay deal in the whole of the UK. Despite funding availability being fully dependant on spending south of the border.

Why are there no teacher union disputes in Wales under the Labour administration there? Not strange or suspicious at all....

They're targetting a devolved administration who's budget is dependant on spending south of the border, despite already getting the best pay deal in the UK with the commitment to further rises ahead of the rest of the UK.

Let's be honest, they're not going to agree to any wage deal that's possible under the current financial restraints of the Scottish Parliament. It's not in their politics to do so.

That’s the thing about those dumb Teachers, they are easily lead by their Union officials who are only intent on bringing down the SNP. Although that’s not what is motivating any teachers I know.

Fife-Hibee

21-02-2019, 09:23 PM

That’s the thing about those dumb Teachers, they are easily lead by their Union officials who are only intent on bringing down the SNP. Although that’s not what is motivating any teachers I know.

So what are they telling you then? What is motivating them to target the Scottish Government over the source of funding itself?

JeMeSouviens

21-02-2019, 09:36 PM

So what are they telling you then? What is motivating them to target the Scottish Government over the source of funding itself?

Don’t get it. The EIS can only interact with the employer. In this case cosla (backed by scotgov). How could they target anyone else?

Fife-Hibee

21-02-2019, 09:49 PM

Don’t get it. The EIS can only interact with the employer. In this case cosla (backed by scotgov). How could they target anyone else?

I'm aware of that. But they're rejecting an offer that they know isn't going to be improved any further as it's not financially viable under the current political and economic climate. They're well aware of this, but as long as they have an excuse to keep on protesting, then they will. Perhaps the Scottish Government should cut the offer from 9% down to 3% in line with England and Wales and tell them that if they want something better, then perhaps it's time to back Scotland having complete control over the purse strings by leaving the UK.

RyeSloan

21-02-2019, 09:56 PM

Teachers deserve better pay. However, I don't know why (well actually I do) they're targetting the devolved administration in Scotland which is already bending over backwards to ensure they continue to get the best pay deal in the whole of the UK. Despite funding availability being fully dependant on spending south of the border.

Why are there no teacher union disputes in Wales under the Labour administration there? Not strange or suspicious at all....

They're targetting a devolved administration who's budget is dependant on spending south of the border, despite already getting the best pay deal in the UK with the commitment to further rises ahead of the rest of the UK.

Let's be honest, they're not going to agree to any wage deal that's possible under the current financial restraints of the Scottish Parliament. It's not in their politics to do so.

It’s been pointed out to you before but you seem to have forgotten so I’ll remind you again.

Welsh teachers pay was only devolved to Wales on 30th September 2018.

The first pay round under the devolved deal will be for the academic year 2019/2020 so quite simply it’s not suspicious as there has been no grounds for arguing with the Labour led assembly on teachers pay to date as they have not been responsible for it!

James310

21-02-2019, 10:07 PM

I'm aware of that. But they're rejecting an offer that they know isn't going to be improved any further as it's not financially viable under the current political and economic climate. They're well aware of this, but as long as they have an excuse to keep on protesting, then they will. Perhaps the Scottish Government should cut the offer from 9% down to 3% in line with England and Wales and tell them that if they want something better, then perhaps it's time to back Scotland having complete control over the purse strings by leaving the UK.

Does there always have to be a conspiracy or some kind of angle on something that tends to be against the Scottish Government? I agree sometimes it may be true but do you ever take anything at face value without assuming some kind of under hand shenanigans going on.

Fife-Hibee

21-02-2019, 10:08 PM

It’s been pointed out to you before but you seem to have forgotten so I’ll remind you again.

Welsh teachers pay was only devolved to Wales on 30th September 2018.

The first pay round under the devolved deal will be for the academic year 2019/2020 so quite simply it’s not suspicious as there has been no grounds for arguing with the Labour led assembly on teachers pay to date as they have not been responsible for it!

They're didn't even mount a challenge against the UK Government. :rolleyes:

They seem very content with their worse pay deal. While the EIS in Scotland is fighting over 1% from a 9% rise over and above the previous rise that was already in place before the strike action.

They're turning down a deal that they know isn't going to be improved any further for the purpose of protest.

Fife-Hibee

21-02-2019, 10:12 PM

Does there always have to be a conspiracy or some kind of angle on something that tends to be against the Scottish Government? I agree sometimes it may be true but do you ever take anything at face value without assuming some kind of under hand shenanigans going on.

As far as politics is concerned, no I don't. It's a dirty game that operates on underhanded shenanigans. It's peoples lack of vigilance that allows things to go unchallenged without question.

So no, I never take anything at face value. I look at the bigger picture and take a combination of factors into consideration when drawing my conclusions.

James310

21-02-2019, 10:14 PM

As far as politics is concerned, no I don't. It's a dirty game that operates on underhanded shenanigans. It's peoples lack of vigilance that allows things to go unchallenged without question.

So no, I never take anything at face value. I look at the bigger picture and take a combination of factors into consideration when drawing my conclusions.

On all sides, or only the side you don't like?

RyeSloan

21-02-2019, 10:20 PM

They're didn't even mount a challenge against the UK Government. :rolleyes:

They seem very content with their worse pay deal. While the EIS in Scotland is fighting over 1% from a 9% rise over and above the previous rise that was already in place before the strike action.

They're turning down a deal that they know isn't going to be improved any further for the purpose of protest.

Right so nothing to do with not attacking the Labour administration in Wales as you suggested was the original conspiracy then?

And anyway you do know the union that has voted against the pay deal is the Educational Institute for SCOTLAND?

Fife-Hibee

21-02-2019, 10:23 PM

On all sides, or only the side you don't like?

On all sides, all the time. Politics is a game, all of the political parties and their affiliates are part of that game. Whether it's lying, twisting, altering peoples perceptions, it works out best for all of them, as long as the truth can be buried underneath it all.

Fife-Hibee

21-02-2019, 10:26 PM

Right so nothing to do with not attacking the Labour administration in Wales as you suggested was the original conspiracy then?

And anyway you do know the union that has voted against the pay deal is the Educational Institute for SCOTLAND?

Which doesn't change a damn thing. Why is it only a problem in Scotland? Teachers pay is a UK wide problem and Scotland's economy is tied to that problem. So why are strikes only occuring in Scotland? Why isn't NUT pushing for a better wage deal for teachers in England and Wales where the situation is worse?

Why is the pay deal in England and Wales good enough for the teachers there, but the better deal that teachers had in Scotland wasn't good enough for them?

Can you answer that?

RyeSloan

21-02-2019, 10:46 PM

Which doesn't change a damn thing. Why is it only a problem in Scotland? Teachers pay is a UK wide problem and Scotland's economy is tied to that problem. So why are strikes only occuring in Scotland? Why isn't NUT pushing for a better wage deal for teachers in England and Wales where the situation is worse?

Why is the pay deal in England and Wales good enough for the teachers there, but the better deal that teachers had in Scotland wasn't good enough for them?

Can you answer that?

You asked why they were targeting the devolved administration in Scotland and suggested there was some sort of conspiracy as to why they were not doing the same in Wales to Labour.

It has been pointed out to you that Labour in Wales have not had any power over teachers pay so that’s why.

You then swiftly ignored that and asked why they didn’t fight the UK government.

It was then pointed out to you that they are actually a Scottish union so completely unrelated to any such discussions

You now ask why the NUT is not pushing for better pay in England...I dunno but it has little relevance to your argument that the vote to not accept 9% was a politically orchestrated attack on the SNP that was cynically not being carried out on other political parties by the same group.

So we end up with the clear fact that the EIS, if it is to fight for what the 10% it’s members want (an instruction it received by balloting its members on the current deal on offer), can only ever face off to the devolved administration in Scotland...so no conspiracy relating to Wales, nothing whatsoever to do with the UK government or teachers pay in England.

You may well think the demands are unreasonable or the offer on the table one that should be accepted, fair enough I’m minded to agree but that doesn’t make their members democratic vote to decline it a politically motivated conspiracy orchestrated by ‘them’.

Mr Grieves

22-02-2019, 12:09 AM

9% over 3 years with some fiddling of their grades. With the real terms cut all public sector workers have had to put up with for years, do you blame them?

I think it's more like 12% over 3 years, and even more with the fiddling of grades.

I work for a council and accepted the 9.5% over 3 years pay rise we've been offered but if the teachers think they can get more fair play to them.

marinello59

22-02-2019, 02:05 AM

They're didn't even mount a challenge against the UK Government. :rolleyes:

They seem very content with their worse pay deal. While the EIS in Scotland is fighting over 1% from a 9% rise over and above the previous rise that was already in place before the strike action.

They're turning down a deal that they know isn't going to be improved any further for the purpose of protest.

They are turning down a deal they think can still be improved on. The Scottish Government has given ground quite easily so far so it's a reasonable assumption for the union to make.
You may be the only Independence supporting traded union bashing Tory I have come across so far. :greengrin

ronaldo7

22-02-2019, 06:24 AM

They are turning down a deal they think can still be improved on. The Scottish Government has given ground quite easily so far so it's a reasonable assumption for the union to make.
You may be the only Independence supporting traded union bashing Tory I have come across so far. :greengrin

Let's get back to this SNP nonsense. 😂

Have you been on the sheep bypass yet? It looks like another piece of the infrastructure puzzle put in place. 🚘

cabbageandribs1875

22-02-2019, 06:50 AM

Just incase anybody missed it. :greengrin

I do wonder if he is ever actually sober. Or looking to take the George Foulkes route into the House of Lords.

and again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwyJ0faeu40&feature=youtu.be

is their something wrong with this guy :confused: he's helped to start of my day with a right good belly laugh though, thank you james kelly :thumbsup:

ronaldo7

22-02-2019, 07:00 AM

and again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwyJ0faeu40&feature=youtu.be

is their something wrong with this guy :confused: he's helped to start of my day with a right good belly laugh though, thank you james kelly :thumbsup:

Listen to the start off his answer, at least you can see where the current Labour party in Scotland are taking their steer from.

If they ever got close to power in Holyrood, Kelly would hold the key to the safe, and the finances of our country.

Jeez, I'm away for a lie down.

RyeSloan

22-02-2019, 07:17 AM

Let's get back to this SNP nonsense. [emoji23]

Have you been on the sheep bypass yet? It looks like another piece of the infrastructure puzzle put in place. [emoji593]

A project that was initially approved under Labour was it not?

And considering the vocal opposition to PFI style contacts on here I’m curious as to lack of comment as to the £1.5bn cost of the project which includes £48m annual payments until 2048.

That aside I’m all for such infrastructure projects, would be good to see them delivered rather quicker than the 15 years this one (largely thanks to dogged legal challenges) has taken right enough!

ronaldo7

22-02-2019, 07:42 AM

A project that was initially approved under Labour was it not?

And considering the vocal opposition to PFI style contacts on here I’m curious as to lack of comment as to the £1.5bn cost of the project which includes £48m annual payments until 2048.

That aside I’m all for such infrastructure projects, would be good to see them delivered rather quicker than the 15 years this one (largely thanks to dogged legal challenges) has taken right enough!

I believe it was mooted in the forties. It's taken a while, I'll grant you, but only one party got it over the line. Just like the vanity project of the queensferry crossing, it takes time, but hopefully it's worth it in the end.

cabbageandribs1875

22-02-2019, 07:57 AM

Listen to the start off his answer, at least you can see where the current Labour party in Scotland are taking their steer from.

If they ever got close to power in Holyrood, Kelly would hold the key to the safe, and the finances of our country.

Jeez, I'm away for a lie down.

i wake up in a sweat sometimes after having nightmares of Labour having power over finances at either Holyrood or Westminster, meanwhile taken from the west lothian courier, west lothian's minority Labour administration have pushed through a decision against introducing parking charges, slashing more than £250k a year in potential income two weeks before the full council debates it's annual budget, the vote overturns Labour's five-year plan agreed last year, the council expected to make more them £1m from leasing parking charges in towns to private firms until 2022/23, jings.. even the local tory leader wasn't happy with their new chums, but no doubt neil findlay will state in his almost weekly rantings in the courier that it's all the SG's fault folks.

marinello59

22-02-2019, 11:42 AM

Let's get back to this SNP nonsense. ��

Have you been on the sheep bypass yet? It looks like another piece of the infrastructure puzzle put in place. ��

It's excellent. Anything that makes it quicker to get out of this town is welcomed by me. :greengrin
Given your posts praising the Scottish Government for bringing the Queensferry crossing in on time and under budget I am sure you will now be blaming them for the lengthy delays and over running of the budget for this project. :wink:
(Unlike Queensferry the weather conditions went against this project, I won't blame or praise the Scottish Government for things that were out of their control. This road should have been built decades ago so a big well done to the SNP administration for finally getting it done.)

However having the main section sitting completed and unused for weeks because the Scottish Government had not made provision in the contracts for a 'partial ' opening of the road wasn't too clever. To see that mistake repeated when the final short section to Craibstone from the North was completed beggars belief. Amateur stuff from the Transport Minister.

ronaldo7

22-02-2019, 01:17 PM

It's excellent. Anything that makes it quicker to get out of this town is welcomed by me. :greengrin
Given you're posts praising the Scottish Government for bringing the Queensferry crossing in on time and under budget I am sure you will now be blaming them for the lengthy delays and over running of the budget for this project. :wink:
(Unlike Queensferry the weather conditions went against this project, I won't blame or praise the Scottish Government for things that were out of their control. This road should have been built decades ago so a big well done to the SNP administration for finally getting it done.)

However having the main section sitting completed and unused for weeks because the Scottish Government had not made provision in the contracts for a 'partial ' opening of the road wasn't too clever. To see that mistake repeated when the final short section to Craibstone from the North was completed beggars belief. Amateur stuff from the Transport Minister.

If only they could have foreseen, carillion going bust. They could have placed a few Bob on it at paddy power. 😂😂

Glad you're enjoying the new infrastructure, courtesy of the Scottish government.

It just shows what can be done when you keep the money, rather than handing it back to Westminster. 😉

RyeSloan

22-02-2019, 01:55 PM

If only they could have foreseen, carillion going bust. They could have placed a few Bob on it at paddy power. [emoji23][emoji23]

Glad you're enjoying the new infrastructure, courtesy of the Scottish government.

It just shows what can be done when you keep the money, rather than handing it back to Westminster. [emoji6]

It’s slightly disingenuous to suggest the SG has kept money and paid for this road.

The main funding for it was provided through listed bond issued by Allianz Global Investors, EIB loans and a 15 year commercial loan.

As alluded to earlier those will be repaid at a cost of many millions per year for the next 30 years.

Edit: It’s interestingly difficult to actually find a single source that explains the funding methods and costs. And it’s worth noting that I’ve no issue with market funded projects but it would be useful to know what rates are being paid on the bonds and loans...how else can the populous understand if such funding routes are value for money or not.

JeMeSouviens

22-02-2019, 02:28 PM

I think it's more like 12% over 3 years, and even more with the fiddling of grades.

I work for a council and accepted the 9.5% over 3 years pay rise we've been offered but if the teachers think they can get more fair play to them.

Yep. It seems a reasonable offer given the circumstances but I absolutely understand the teachers' (and other public sector workers) pov. They've effectively had a huge real terms wage cut over a decade.

Both sides in a dispute can be right. If I was in the union I'd be wanting them to push as far as they can.

marinello59

22-02-2019, 02:59 PM

If only they could have foreseen, carillion going bust. They could have placed a few Bob on it at paddy power. 😂😂

Glad you're enjoying the new infrastructure, courtesy of the Scottish government.

It just shows what can be done when you keep the money, rather than handing it back to Westminster. 😉

It was running late long before Carillion went bust.

Callyballybe

22-02-2019, 04:10 PM

The new pay offer that was made to teachers wasn't 12% over 3 years; it was 9% in April of this year, followed by a further 3% next year. Having spoken to a friend who is a department head, it was essentially a 12.7% increase between now and April 2020, but the unions were/are demanding 10% now.

She, and a lot of her colleagues, didn't understand why there was such a push back on the deal being offered. The main argument seemed to centre around the idea that teacher's pay had been eroded by 24% over several years, and that getting 10% now was better than 12.7% over 14 months.

As it was, I did ask her if there was political undertones to the whole thing - She didn't seem to think so. But was confused by the union's demands nonetheless.

jonty

22-02-2019, 06:12 PM

They are turning down a deal they think can still be improved on. The Scottish Government has given ground quite easily so far so it's a reasonable assumption for the union to make.
You may be the only Independence supporting traded union bashing Tory I have come across so far. :greengrin

So, being greedy then.
(and this is the union, not the teachers themselves. although some,...…...)

ronaldo7

22-02-2019, 07:39 PM

It’s slightly disingenuous to suggest the SG has kept money and paid for this road.

The main funding for it was provided through listed bond issued by Allianz Global Investors, EIB loans and a 15 year commercial loan.

As alluded to earlier those will be repaid at a cost of many millions per year for the next 30 years.

Edit: It’s interestingly difficult to actually find a single source that explains the funding methods and costs. And it’s worth noting that I’ve no issue with market funded projects but it would be useful to know what rates are being paid on the bonds and loans...how else can the populous understand if such funding routes are value for money or not.

I suggested no such thing.

My reference about keeping the money rather than handing it back to Westminster was about British labour in Scotland handing back £1.5 billion when they didn't have a Scooby what to do with it. 😂😂

We built a muckle great bridge with it. 👍🚖🌉

RyeSloan

22-02-2019, 07:54 PM

I suggested no such thing.

My reference about keeping the money rather than handing it back to Westminster was about British labour in Scotland handing back £1.5 billion when they didn't have a Scooby what to do with it. [emoji23][emoji23]

We built a muckle great bridge with it. [emoji106][emoji596][emoji563]

Oh I know what you were referring to, it’s (probably quite rightly) one of your favourite Labour jibes but yer kidding me that the comment ‘just shows what you can do when you keep the money’ was purely relating to the new bridge.

Anyhoo second half back on so I’ll leave the sheep to their nice new, long overdue, rather expensive, part privately financed road that was commissioned by Labour and delivered by the SNP [emoji12][emoji6]

ronaldo7

22-02-2019, 07:56 PM

Oh I know what you were referring to, it’s (probably quite rightly) one of your favourite Labour jibes but yer kidding me that the comment ‘just shows what you can do when you keep the money’ was purely relating to the new bridge.

Anyhoo second half back on so I’ll leave the sheep to their nice new, long overdue, rather expensive, part privately financed road that was commissioned by Labour and delivered by the SNP [emoji12][emoji6]

Delivered by the SNP. 😂😂

Nice to know you care. 😂😂

RyeSloan

22-02-2019, 08:17 PM

Delivered by the SNP. [emoji23][emoji23]

Nice to know you care. [emoji23][emoji23]

I’m a caring type really [emoji1787]

Moulin Yarns

23-02-2019, 12:50 PM

It's excellent. Anything that makes it quicker to get out of this town is welcomed by me. :greengrin
Given your posts praising the Scottish Government for bringing the Queensferry crossing in on time and under budget I am sure you will now be blaming them for the lengthy delays and over running of the budget for this project. :wink:
(Unlike Queensferry the weather conditions went against this project, I won't blame or praise the Scottish Government for things that were out of their control. This road should have been built decades ago so a big well done to the SNP administration for finally getting it done.)

However having the main section sitting completed and unused for weeks because the Scottish Government had not made provision in the contracts for a 'partial ' opening of the road wasn't too clever. To see that mistake repeated when the final short section to Craibstone from the North was completed beggars belief. Amateur stuff from the Transport Minister.

I'm in Aberdeen for the weekend and the traffic in the city centre is horrendous. Nothing the bypass can do to resolve the issue.

Met friends from Huntly yesterday and they said the bypass has halved the time to get to Stonehaven.

cabbageandribs1875

03-03-2019, 03:10 PM

21766

welcome :agree:

Fife-Hibee

04-03-2019, 10:26 PM

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/snp-vote-on-deadline-to-remove-trident-from-independent-scotland-1-4882930?fbclid=IwAR26cXunJwxcKdy1dD6S_wJCXINHR7Rpc mSVTFGtnlFUhM4_mnV_uxh12vU

More of a political stunt than anything else. But as long as it bams a few people up, then well worth it. :greengrin

cabbageandribs1875

05-03-2019, 12:16 PM

cabbageandribs1875

06-03-2019, 12:07 PM

https://www.scotsman.com/news/lesley-riddoch-things-are-hotting-up-on-indy-front-1-4882610?fbclid=IwAR00dG56xq1g7zOKXTJPgRm5mOM5ebCGu 8jpXN7YZT03tjLPsqOLl8Yq3qc

Meanwhile, academics at the recent Oxford conference on Rewriting the UK Constitution have predicted that the EU will make a public offer to Scotland once Brexit means there’s no further risk in offending Britain and no conflict of interest in wooing the Scots instead. And why wouldn’t the EU want us? Regaining five million generally progressive, pro-EU citizens in the wake of Britain’s acrimonious departure would be an important boost to the European project. Any bidding war between EFTA and the EU would serve to bolster the viability of Scottish independence, consolidate a new Brexit-oriented strategy and increase support for another Scottish vote.

it's coming :agree:

Fife-Hibee

06-03-2019, 12:43 PM