SNP nonsense

[Hiber-nation]

I thought his apology was a bit half arsed.

If I were in his shoes I’d have grovelled.

It was a very stupid thing for a man in his position to get wrong, and some of the ludicrous stuff it led to was inevitable.

Definitely. I think he's past his sell-by date to be honest, his blustering isn't quite up to BoJo standards but it's getting tiresome.

[Peevemor]

I obviously didn't want to get involved in the discussion on the other thread but I agree with this. I think there was some miscommunication somewhere along the line and people perhaps went a bit overboard.


As for Blackford's comment...

I honestly wish people in the public eye, such as politicians, would stay well clear of Social Media. The danger is always there to post something stupid before you got the chance to put your brain into gear and I think that's exactly what he did.

It was a stupid comment but I'm still not convinced it was anti-English, as there's nothing in the post to suggest that, but people are always willing to infer something like that and make attacks on people based on that. Unfortunately that's the kind of world we now live in.An MP from whatever party might be very good, both as a parliamentarian and in terms of looking after their constituents, but unfortunately this will go largely unnoticed if they don't have an active presence on social media.

Ian Blackford's like the Darren Jackson of politics. He's very good at what he does but he's one annoying so-and-so if he's not in your team.

In this instance he screwed up. He knows it and he'll be kicking himself. However for the past 7-8 months he's been continually "outing", often on social media, those that have been taking liberties with the anti-Covid measures. This has nothing to do with anti-Englishness or anti-anything for that matter. He's simply trying to do what's right for his people while toeing the party line.

[Sir David Gray]

To refrain from dragging the Covid thread further off topic, I thought I'd have my right to reply here.





By this, I meant that whenever a politician does something stupid, makes a mistake, has a nightmare or simply just screws up on a gargantuan level, whether intentional or accidental, whether unrepentant or contrite, then it is generally commented on here.
The intensity or number of comments doesn't always corelate to the nature of the faux pas.
I was not intending to directly compare the acts of Ian Blackford to Dominic Cummings, I was just trying to reply to the part in bold that nobody, from any party, is beyond reproach when it comes to the Hibs.net posters. Perhaps my "similar reaction" comment wasn't the correct turn of phrase and reads as if the individual acts were similar, which they clearly aren't.


Agreed, don't think I said they were.



Correct, I wasn't suggesting that.



It would be, if I had.



I'm not sure what this is, but although contrition is a welcome trait in our politicians, it doesn't absolve them if they make mistakes/errors/screw-ups?



This. I certainly could have picked a better example. In fact I need not have named anyone as it's clear for anyone to see that no party is exempt from criticism here.



Agreed.


I genuinely don't enjoy the political discussion anymore (is it even discussion) on the many forms of social media. The minority of folk that actively take part seem far too entrenched in their views and it is very difficult to offer comment or share opinion without worrying about the inevitable pile-on from those partisan types.

I think the above is an example, Peevemor feels the SNP are unduly attacked for on here for what could be considered a trivial matter. As someone with no political affiliation, my opinion is nobody is exempt from the wrath. But what was read by some/many is that the selfish and illegal act by Dominic Cummings which he has yet to apologise for is a direct comparison to Ian Blackford posting an ignorant comment on Twitter (ignorant in that he wasn't aware where the photographer stayed).
I can only stress that wasn't how I wrote it, and as I say above I could have left out the name, but the reaction to my comment seems just as much overkill as to that by Ian Blackford.
It's almost ironic.

I agree with everything you have said, I didn't think your Cummings example really needed to be explained.

[Peevemor]

I thought his apology was a bit half arsed.

If I were in his shoes I’d have grovelled.

It was a very stupid thing for a man in his position to get wrong, and some of the ludicrous stuff it led to was inevitable.The person in question only moved North 2 months ago. Blackford obviously seen out of date information somewhere on the Internet. He was wrong but it was a simple mistake with no malice intended.

[HibernianJK]

Scottish Parliament becomes the first in the world to provide free sanitary products to women. Vote passed unanimously today.

[marinello59]

Scottish Parliament becomes the first in the world to provide free sanitary products to women. Vote passed unanimously today.

Well done to Monica Lennon who piloted this through. Excellent work .
(This may be the wrong thread for this one.)

[Smartie]

The person in question only moved North 2 months ago. Blackford obviously seen out of date information somewhere on the Internet. He was wrong but it was a simple mistake with no malice intended.

I just think you need to have your facts right before you go pointing the finger - and if you are incorrect, irrespective of mitigating factors, you grovel.

It wasn’t as bad as Patel’s non-apology through the week, but the idea is the same.

When you’re wrong and you know it, you grovel. Non-apologies, insincere apologies, half-arsed apologies imo make matters worse.

FWIW I really like the guy.

[Keith_M]

The person in question only moved North 2 months ago. Blackford obviously seen out of date information somewhere on the Internet. He was wrong but it was a simple mistake with no malice intended.


I accept the point made earlier that politicians maybe have to make use of Social Media, but I think his 'mistake' was posting something he had no business posting.

It might be an idea for all of them to stick to using Social Media only for pre-prepared statements that might be actually useful, and steer clear of it when it comes to posting personal opinion.

[danhibees1875]

The person in question only moved North 2 months ago. Blackford obviously seen out of date information somewhere on the Internet. He was wrong but it was a simple mistake with no malice intended.

Why was he tweeting it though? What was he intending to do/think would happen? (Rhetorical, I don't expect you to know his motives)

It does just come across like he had an itchy trigger finger because the guy was coming from England (or at least in Blackford's head he was).

[Hibrandenburg]

I agree with everything you have said, I didn't think your Cummings example really needed to be explained.

I did and I still think it can be interpreted as a comparison with Cummings, however I'm willing to accept the follow up explanation.

[Berwickhibby]

According to the Fraser of Allender Institute the Scottish Government is hoarding £1bn of money issued to support the country through the pandemic. As someone who has had no help from either Government I hope this is not true.

Also been posted by Fife MSP Dean Lockhart

[Hiber-nation]

According to the Fraser of Allender Institute the Scottish Government is hoarding £1bn of money issued to support the country through the pandemic. As someone who has had no help from either Government I hope this is not true.

Also been posted by Fife MSP Dean Lockhart

They said "it seems possible" but there is "significant uncertainty around the size of this number." And nothing about "hoarding".

[Smartie]

According to the Fraser of Allender Institute the Scottish Government is hoarding £1bn of money issued to support the country through the pandemic. As someone who has had no help from either Government I hope this is not true.

Also been posted by Fife MSP Dean Lockhart

Is this not financial prudence to an extent?

What do they do if they spend it and then need more? Do you think Westminster would oblige?

Without knowing what the next few months might bring I’d have thought keeping something back would be sensible.

Proper old fashioned Scottish prudence.

A better look than blowing the lot and repeatedly going cap in hand, even if that is going to be the inevitable perception down South whatever happens.

[Berwickhibby]

They said "it seems possible" but there is "significant uncertainty around the size of this number." And nothing about "hoarding".

MSP's quote and he uses the word hoarding https://twitter.com/deanlockhartmsp/status/1331269744280940551?s=21

[CapitalGreen]

They said "it seems possible" but there is "significant uncertainty around the size of this number." And nothing about "hoarding".

Berwickhibby appears to be parroting the words of Tory MSP Dean Lockhart.

[Moulin Yarns]

According to the Fraser of Allender Institute the Scottish Government is hoarding £1bn of money issued to support the country through the pandemic. As someone who has had no help from either Government I hope this is not true.

Also been posted by Fife MSP Dean Lockhart

Never heard of Lockhart, turns out he is a list MSP for mid Scotland and Fife. So he apparently represents me. 🤔

[Berwickhibby]

I don't care where the message comes from, I would like to know if it's true. Lots of people have fallen through the cracks and been unable to claim a single grant or receive a payment. I am not the only sole trader who have had huge losses.

[CropleyWasGod]

MSP's quote and he uses the word hoarding https://twitter.com/deanlockhartmsp/status/1331269744280940551?s=21

He uses the word. FAI use the phrase "remains uncommitted".

[Berwickhibby]

Is this not financial prudence to an extent?

What do they do if they spend it and then need more? Do you think Westminster would oblige?

Without knowing what the next few months might bring I’d have thought keeping something back would be sensible.

Proper old fashioned Scottish prudence.

A better look than blowing the lot and repeatedly going cap in hand, even if that is going to be the inevitable perception down South whatever happens.

Prudence is great if you qualify for grants, furloughed or other credits... when you don't its just wrong...
I see Tommy Sheppard managed to get a £250k grant from Holyrood for his Sauce n Salt event company.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't care where the message comes from, I would like to know if it's true. Lots of people have fallen through the cracks and been unable to claim a single grant or receive a payment. I am not the only sole trader who have had huge losses.

Did you read the article?

[Kato]

Given the potential Brexit/Covid *****-show in the New Year it would be a scandal if there wasn't some of kind contingency.*


*hoarding
*squirreling away
*hiding under the mattress

[Ozyhibby]

Does anyone seriously believe this money won’t be spent?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

According to the Fraser of Allender Institute the Scottish Government is hoarding £1bn of money issued to support the country through the pandemic. As someone who has had no help from either Government I hope this is not true.

Also been posted by Fife MSP Dean Lockhart

FAI never mention hoarding. That's Mr Lockhart. The Tory.

Some things from the article jump out at me, as someone who's also not had a penny from either government.

"The Scottish Government published its Autumn Budget Revisions on 24 September, two months to the day after it had received notification that it would receive a guaranteed £6.5bn in resource consequentials for 2020/21.

The Autumn Budget Revision (together with the exceptional Summer Budget Revision that had been published in May) set out how £6bn of that £6.5bn would be allocated, leaving (at the time) just over £500m to be allocated".

The Autumn Budget Revision set out how £6bn of Covid-related consequentials are formally allocated, leaving £500m formally unallocated. In delivering the ABR, Kate Forbes insisted that whilst this £500m was formally unallocated, it was ‘committed’:


Her answer

“This leaves just over £500 million of COVID-19 resource consequentials formally unallocated, but I can remind opposition members who appear to be confused about the nature of a budget revision, that this funding is fully committed to the COVID-19 response. It will be formally allocated through the spring budget revision – a budget revision is a retrospective, budget process

This is the bit that sticks in the craw.

"The problem of lags was accentuated by changes in the estimate of consequentials associated with some UK Government spending announcements – so that the Scottish Government would receive notification of consequentials, commit funding to a policy, and then find out that the estimate of consequentials had been revised downwards, creating pressure on the Scottish Budget.

In response to these issues, Kate Forbes wrote to the Treasury in May requesting greater certainty over Barnett consequentials, and some additional budget flexibilities to manage budget uncertainty[15].

This letter was followed up by a subsequent letter from Ms Forbes in June which included specific requests in relation to fiscal flexibilities. The flexibilities sought included:

The temporary ability during 2020/21 to transfer up to £500m of capital budget to resource; and

To be able to use its existing £500m borrowing limit for ‘cash management’ to fund discretionary resource spending increases[16].

Together, these two flexibilities would give the Scottish Government the scope to boost its budget by £1bn in 2020/21.

The UK Government has never formally responded to the request for additional fiscal flexibilities – a clear indication of its opposition to the proposals. In some ways, the UK Government’s denial of these flexibilities seems unreasonable – the Scottish Government’s request was not for additional funding, but for flexibility in how it used its existing capital budget allocation and existing borrowing tools."


Having read the article, I wouldn't have wanted to parrot the words from Mr Lockhart. If only he'd put pressure on his friends in London to "allow" us in Scotland to move some cash for a limited time from Capital to resource. The excluded may then have got the the help they needed.

[ronaldo7]

Does anyone seriously believe this money won’t be spent?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can think of a few people who might think it. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Prudence is great if you qualify for grants, furloughed or other credits... when you don't its just wrong...
I see Tommy Sheppard managed to get a £250k grant from Holyrood for his Sauce n Salt event company.

Surely this is a good thing?

I'd imagine that this will be to keep the company afloat and most of the workers able to go back to work when they get the chance.

[Mr Grieves]

Does anyone seriously believe this money won’t be spent?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, some oddballs following Lockhart on twitter.

[Berwickhibby]

To be honest I dont care who is in charge, but like many feel let down by both Westminster and Holyrood when it comes to being financially supported through the pandemic. If there is finance available it should be available to be applied for. I don't follow Torys, it was a retweet of from an entertainment/hospitality group who are petitioning both Governments for help.

[Keith_M]

Surely this is a good thing?

I'd imagine that this will be to keep the company afloat and most of the workers able to go back to work when they get the chance.


There will always be questions about why some people/companies are being given help and others aren't, especially if the person that owns/runs that company is a politician in the same party as the Government making the decision.

We've seen similar when it comes to the handing out of massive contracts* by Westminster to companies linked in some way to Conservative MPs.


The Tory MP's comment is quite clearly nonsense, so I think BerwickHibby ruined what might have been a reasonable question (at least in part) by quoting him.



* Just to clarify: No, I'm not saying that's the same thing, just used it as an example of when people question possible 'favouritism'

[Berwickhibby]

There will always be questions about why some people/companies are being given help and others aren't, especially if the person that owns/runs that company is a politician in the same party as the Government making the decision.

We've seen similar when it comes to the handing out of massive contracts by Westminster to companies linked in some way to Conservative MPs.


The Tory MP's comment is quite clearly nonsense, so I think BerwickHibby ruined what might have been a reasonable question by quoting him.

Fair comment as I also despise Torys, however that's where I read about it and did ask initially if it was true.

[ronaldo7]

There will always be questions about why some people/companies are being given help and others aren't, especially if the person that owns/runs that company is a politician in the same party as the Government making the decision.

We've seen similar when it comes to the handing out of massive contracts by Westminster to companies linked in some way to Conservative MPs.


The Tory MP's comment is quite clearly nonsense, so I think BerwickHibby ruined what might have been a reasonable question by quoting him.

He's implying that something underhand is happening with the awarding of a grant to the company. Their are rules that apply for the awarding of grants by both governments. The awarding of contacts is a completely different thing.

[Keith_M]

He's implying that something underhand is happening with the awarding of a grant to the company. Their are rules that apply for the awarding of grants by both governments. The awarding of contacts is a completely different thing.


I know, that's why I just added the extra comment to my post.

I was making the comparison in a general sense, as I mentioned, about when Governments are in charge of distributing money (contract or otherwise), that there will always be perceived conflicts of interest.

FWIW, I'm not saying that this is what happened, but I'd imagine if (heaven forbid) the Tory Party was currently in power in Holyrood and the company in question was run by a Tory MP, then this place would be in meltdown right now demanding an explanation.


Disclaimer: I actually voted SNP in the last Westminster and Holyrood elections

[ronaldo7]

I know, that's why I just added the extra comment to my post.

I was making the comparison in a general sense, as I mentioned, about when Governments are in charge of distributing money (contract or otherwise), that there will always be perceived conflicts of interest.

FWIW, I'm not saying that this is what happened, but I'd imagine if (heaven forbid) the Tory Party was currently in power in Holyrood and the company in question was run by a Tory MP, then this place would be in meltdown right now demanding an explanation.


Disclaimer: I actually voted SNP in the last Westminster and Holyrood elections

I noticed that you amended your post to cover the contacts situation. 👍

I find it rather odd that anyone running a company would grudge another getting a grant to ensure the workers are kept in employment at this time. Surely we should be happy for all companies getting grants.

I say this as someone running a company who's had nothing from either government.

[Keith_M]

I noticed that you amended your post to cover the contacts situation. 👍

I find it rather odd that anyone running a company would grudge another getting a grant to ensure the workers are kept in employment at this time. Surely we should be happy for all companies getting grants.

I say this as someone running a company who's had nothing from either government.



You're a very noble minded fellow

:greengrin

[Smartie]

I noticed that you amended your post to cover the contacts situation. 👍

I find it rather odd that anyone running a company would grudge another getting a grant to ensure the workers are kept in employment at this time. Surely we should be happy for all companies getting grants.

I say this as someone running a company who's had nothing from either government.

Emotions are running high and some folk are going through tough times of different sorts.

If you fall through the gaps for various types of help for various reasons, I can understand why you might be aggrieved.

In my line of work I have qualified for some help but have still lost a fortune this year whilst others have prospered offering a sub par service, service so poor it has damaged the reputation of all of us.

I get your point, but there’s only so far I would want to take it with folk who might have had a very tough year.

Uncomfortable truth - many people have done very nicely this year. Some have had unimaginable problems forced upon them through no fault of their own. It’s not always easy to be magnanimous when you fall in the latter category.

[ronaldo7]

Emotions are running high and some folk are going through tough times of different sorts.

If you fall through the gaps for various types of help for various reasons, I can understand why you might be aggrieved.

In my line of work I have qualified for some help but have still lost a fortune this year whilst others have prospered offering a sub par service, service so poor it has damaged the reputation of all of us.

I get your point, but there’s only so far I would want to take it with folk who might have had a very tough year.

Uncomfortable truth - many people have done very nicely this year. Some have had unimaginable problems forced upon them through no fault of their own. It’s not always easy to be magnanimous when you fall in the latter category.

I do have sympathy for those who have been left behind, and think that sunak could have used the money differently to try and cover more people, but a UBI is for another day.

Those left behind, (normally company directors), will remember who left them out when the cash was being distributed.

[Moulin Yarns]

Prudence is great if you qualify for grants, furloughed or other credits... when you don't its just wrong...
I see Tommy Sheppard managed to get a £250k grant from Holyrood for his Sauce n Salt event company.

Feel free to get onto the guy Lockhart to complain, I'm sure any business that qualifies will get the grants due.

I feel for you and your business, my turnover has been less than 10% of last years, not going to be a good time to submit last years tax assessment where I see what I should have been earning, but if grants are available then any sane person would apply for them.

As a self employed person all of my profits go into buying stock or equipment for the following year, that includes this financial year about 50% of my usual turnover on one item.

[Berwickhibby]

I do have sympathy for those who have been left behind, and think that sunak could have used the money differently to try and cover more people, but a UBI is for another day.

Those left behind, (normally company directors), will remember who left them out when the cash was being distributed.

I certainly will...Got f all from Torys and F all from Nats ....so I will continue my support for Labour

[danhibees1875]

I certainly will...Got f all from Torys and F all from Nats ....so I will continue my support for Labour

This might not be the place for it, and I'm sorry if you've already explained but how is it that you ended up with no support if you were negatively impacted in all of this?

I've heard of people falling through the cracks as it were, but not really sure where and how that applies!

[Moulin Yarns]

This might not be the place for it, and I'm sorry if you've already explained but how is it that you ended up with no support if you were negatively impacted in all of this?

I've heard of people falling through the cracks as it were, but not really sure where and how that applies!

Briefly, self employed were able to get support based on previous years profit, as I said anything I make goes back into my business so I had no profit to base any support on. In Berwickhibby's case I imagine something the same.

FWIW my outgoings have been less but this no compensation.

[CropleyWasGod]

This might not be the place for it, and I'm sorry if you've already explained but how is it that you ended up with no support if you were negatively impacted in all of this?

I've heard of people falling through the cracks as it were, but not really sure where and how that applies!

Sole directors of Limited Companies were left out. Nominally self-employed, legally employed, the only help available was furlough. Given that most of them take a small salary, that wasn't much help. In no way is it income-related, in the way that self-employed help is.

[danhibees1875]

Thanks for the explanations MY and CWG. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

I certainly will...Got f all from Torys and F all from Nats ....so I will continue my support for Labour

As is your right. Yoonity with the Tories is another matter though. 😂 💰

[Keith_M]

Sole directors of Limited Companies were left out. Nominally self-employed, legally employed, the only help available was furlough. Given that most of them take a small salary, that wasn't much help. In no way is it income-related, in the way that self-employed help is.


For anybody that's genuinely running a small business it's a bit of a bummer, but that's quite a common Tax Avoidance strategy among the Self-Employed and it looks like it's backfired for some people this year.

The problem for the Government when working out how to support people in that situation is how to differentiate between the two groups.

[Berwickhibby]

As is your right. Yoonity with the Tories is another matter though. �� ��

Give it a rest with the Yoon pish....

[ronaldo7]

Give it a rest with the Yoon pish....

It would be a shame if we were all to think in a Yooniversal language, without trying to shed a little humour into our day. :wink:

[Berwickhibby]

It would be a shame if we were all to think in a Yooniversal language, without trying to shed a little humour into our day. :wink:

Fair enough but I doubt Nippy would approve :wink::greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Fair enough but I doubt Nippy would approve :wink::greengrin

I think she'll be imyoon to all that by now. 👍

[marinello59]

Bad enough that the local SNP activists continued to work to get Neale Hanvey elected after his anti Semitic comments but not only was he re-admitted to the party so he could sit with his fellow Westminster MP's, he has also been elected in to a position on the SNP's members standards committee. Civic nationalism in action? It really doesn't look good.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/2697214/neale-hanvey-anti-semitic/

[Keith_M]

Bad enough that the local SNP activists continued to work to get Neale Hanvey elected after his anti Semitic comments but not only was he re-admitted to the party so he could sit with his fellow Westminster MP's, he has also been elected in to a position on the SNP's members standards committee. Civic nationalism in action? It really doesn't look good.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/2697214/neale-hanvey-anti-semitic/


What did he say that was anti-semitic?

[marinello59]

What did he say that was anti-semitic?

You don't remember his suspension? Google is your friend. . (The SNP decided he was in the wrong at the time. I ain't going to get involved in any arguments with people defending his comments as innocent. :greengrin)

[Ozyhibby]

You don't remember his suspension? Google is your friend. . (The SNP decided he was in the wrong at the time. I ain't going to get involved in any arguments with people defending his comments as innocent. :greengrin)

He was correctly suspended for 6 months and then re-admitted after showing full remorse and working with Scottish Jewish groups. What he did was wrong and he admits that himself. There has to be a pathway to rehabilitation though and this looks like a perfect example of this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

You don't remember his suspension? Google is your friend. . (I ain't going to get involved in any arguments with people defending his comments as innocent. :greengrin)


Oh I do remember what he actually wrote.

This is one of these situations where the accepted wisdom is that, once you've been accused of anti-semitism, the only option is to admit it and apologise unreservedly.

“One message I posted was a news article from Sputnik news relating to Mr. George Soros which, I have since been advised, contained an image which is considered an anti-Semitic trope."

“On this occasion I did not give any thought to Mr Soros’ faith and did not consider the connotations of the image in that context."

According to him, he posted that not knowing that it was commonly considered an Anti-Semitic trope.

So, deliberate case of Anti-Semitism?


He also compared the treatment of the Palestinians to that of the Jews in WW2

That could definitely be described as a really bad and thoughtless comparison but I'm struggling to see how it equates to a hatred of Jews (which is surely what Anti-Semitism actually means)

[marinello59]

He was correctly suspended for 6 months and then re-admitted after showing full remorse and working with Scottish Jewish groups. What he did was wrong and he admits that himself. There has to be a pathway to rehabilitation though and this looks like a perfect example of this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And of course you would say exactly the same if he was a Tory. :greengrin

[Keith_M]

And of course you would say exactly the same if he was a Tory. :greengrin


No idea what his view is but I would support anybody that had been tried and convicted on such flimsy evidence, regardless of party allegiance.

[marinello59]

No idea what his view is but I would support anybody that had been tried and convicted on such flimsy evidence, regardless of party allegiance.

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the remark I made earlier. :greengrin

[Keith_M]

Sorry about my rant yesterday, I was in a grumpy mood.


:embarrass

[Moulin Yarns]

Will the Scottish Government get their money back?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55172349


(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55172349)


A private, Canadian owned company blaming the government, who's hands are tied by EU rules, for not guaranteeing the supply chain.

Is that not a bit like Muller blaming the cows for not producing enough milk?

[marinello59]

Will the Scottish Government get their money back?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55172349


(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55172349)


A private, Canadian owned company blaming the government, who's hands are tied by EU rules, for not guaranteeing the supply chain.

Is that not a bit like Muller blaming the cows for not producing enough milk?

The Scottish Government either knew the rules when they got involved and ignored them or failed to do their research properly before investing our money. Either way they are at least partly culpable here and have let the workers down badly.

[Jack]

Will the Scottish Government get their money back?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55172349


(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55172349)


A private, Canadian owned company blaming the government, who's hands are tied by EU rules, for not guaranteeing the supply chain.

Is that not a bit like Muller blaming the cows for not producing enough milk?

What gets me or disappoints me about this and all the similar stories is that it's a foreign company pulling the plug.

Are there any Scottish (or UK) companies left?

Has the UK government done enough over the years to protect British companies from predatory takeovers?

I don't think so.

Not only do these foreign companies soak up government (I don't care which) funding then greet and xxxx off when its not forthcoming. Any profits go overseas. In the event taxes are due there's always some creative accounting means losses overseas magically appear and that money is squirreled away.

Can anyone name any big British brands that are still British?

[Moulin Yarns]

The Scottish Government either knew the rules when they got involved and ignored them or failed to do their research properly before investing our money. Either way they are at least partly culpable here and have let the workers down badly.

I'll admit I don't know all the rules, but it seems the same things have happened here as Ferguson Shipyard and Prestwick Airport. Rescue a failing industry, throw lots of money into the pot, then stand back to let market forces take effect.

Happy to corrected if that isn't the case.

[Ozyhibby]

I'll admit I don't know all the rules, but it seems the same things have happened here as Ferguson Shipyard and Prestwick Airport. Rescue a failing industry, throw lots of money into the pot, then stand back to let market forces take effect.

Happy to corrected if that isn't the case.

SG needs to stay out of private businesses. Each time it has failed spectacularly and lots of public money has been wasted.
Given the global demand for windmills, if this company can’t survive now, it was never going to survive.
If we need windmills we need to buy them of the shelf from the cheapest supplier. If we need ferries then the same applies. Stop wasting money trying to make the economy what we think it should be.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldcond/185/18503.htm#_idTextAnchor003


https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/402/conduct-committee/news/136879/the-conduct-of-lord-maginnis-of-drumglass/



suspended for 18 months...excellent news, the ***t :agree:

[marinello59]

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldcond/185/18503.htm#_idTextAnchor003


https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/402/conduct-committee/news/136879/the-conduct-of-lord-maginnis-of-drumglass/



suspended for 18 months...excellent news, the ***t :agree:

What a piece of work.

Think you have posted on the wrong thread though. :greengrin

[Jack]

What a piece of work.

Think you have posted on the wrong thread though. :greengrin

SNP get blamed for everything lol

[cabbageandribs1875]

What a piece of work.

Think you have posted on the wrong thread though. :greengrin


tbf it was either this thread or the indy thread and seeing as it's nothing to do with indy i chose this one ;)

[marinello59]

tbf it was either this thread or the indy thread and seeing as it's nothing to do with indy i chose this one ;)

It’s got absolutely nothing to do with this one.
Start another thread? :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

What gets me or disappoints me about this and all the similar stories is that it's a foreign company pulling the plug.

Are there any Scottish (or UK) companies left?

Has the UK government done enough over the years to protect British companies from predatory takeovers?

I don't think so.

Not only do these foreign companies soak up government (I don't care which) funding then greet and xxxx off when its not forthcoming. Any profits go overseas. In the event taxes are due there's always some creative accounting means losses overseas magically appear and that money is squirreled away.

Can anyone name any big British brands that are still British?British brand?

I nearly said the Conservative Party but theres so much Russian money in there it would be wrong.

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[ronaldo7]

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldcond/185/18503.htm#_idTextAnchor003


https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/402/conduct-committee/news/136879/the-conduct-of-lord-maginnis-of-drumglass/



suspended for 18 months...excellent news, the ***t :agree:

Hannah Bardell, and the security staff fully vindicated, and putting the Lord in his place took immense courage.

Well done to all who stepped forward.

[Skol]

SNP get blamed for everything lol

Thats not a surprise given they are responsible for everything ;-)

[Glory Lurker]

Thats not a surprise given they are responsible for everything ;-)

No they're not, and that's the problem :-)

[cabbageandribs1875]

Hannah Bardell, and the security staff fully vindicated, and putting the Lord in his place took immense courage.

Well done to all who stepped forward.



oh oh..i should have finished reading the article......



The report and recommended suspension will now have to be approved by the House on 7 December before coming into force. In line with new Standing Orders for reports of this nature the report and sanction can be voted on but not debated.

[ronaldo7]

oh oh..i should have finished reading the article......



The report and recommended suspension will now have to be approved by the House on 7 December before coming into force. In line with new Standing Orders for reports of this nature the report and sanction can be voted on but not debated.

He's already said he'd refuse behaviour training. Old dog and new tricks springs to mind, but basic civility costs nothing.

His mammy would have been disappointed.

[One Day Soon]

This care worker isn't happy:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EodZVfaXIAExwGV?format=png&name=900x900https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EodZVpJW4AE0fRM?format=png&name=small

[Moulin Yarns]

This care worker isn't happy:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EodZVfaXIAExwGV?format=png&name=900x900https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EodZVpJW4AE0fRM?format=png&name=small

Any chance you could link to the original tweet so that we can see what else he says?

[allmodcons]

This care worker isn't happy:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EodZVfaXIAExwGV?format=png&name=900x900https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EodZVpJW4AE0fRM?format=png&name=small

A very angry Unionist and hardly an impartial view.

Judging by some of the comments in the closing paragraphs, it could have been written by you ODS.

[Moulin Yarns]

A very angry Unionist and hardly an impartial view.

Judging by some of the comments in the closing paragraphs, it could have been written by you ODS.

My problem with it is it can't be a tweet because of the limit on character numbers, and I tried to find him on twitter and can't find him, so where did it come from?

[Peevemor]

My problem with it is it can't be a tweet because of the limit on character numbers, and I tried to find him on twitter and can't find him, so where did it come from?Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/christopher.wright.101

[ronaldo7]

Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/christopher.wright.101

Im sure Facebook and twitter were ruled out as a undesirable.

Whatever floats your narrative eh.

Knock knock knocking for labour.

[Skol]

A very angry Unionist and hardly an impartial view.

Judging by some of the comments in the closing paragraphs, it could have been written by you ODS.

So is it all untrue ?

[allmodcons]

Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/christopher.wright.101

That's good. I don't do Facebook.

[allmodcons]

So is it all untrue ?

No, it's not but if you think I have either the time or inclination to analyse and reply to it you'll wait a long time.

Let's just say that he has an incredibly loaded view of Nicola Surgeon's handling of the coronavirus pandemic.

With regard to his politics, I think it is fair to say that he and I would not see eye to eye.

[Moulin Yarns]

No, it's not but if you think I have either the time or inclination to analyse and reply to it you'll wait a long time.

Let's just say that he has an incredibly loaded view of Nicola Surgeon's handling of the coronavirus pandemic.

With regard to his politics, I think it is fair to say that he and I would not see eye to eye.

It's the fawning over Jeremy Corbyn that is quite disturbing. :wink:

[degenerated]

A very angry Unionist and hardly an impartial view.

Judging by some of the comments in the closing paragraphs, it could have been written by you ODS.Labour activist by the looks of his timeline, if its a real person in the first place.

[Keith_M]

No, it's not but if you think I have either the time or inclination to analyse and reply to it you'll wait a long time.

Let's just say that he has an incredibly loaded view of Nicola Surgeon's handling of the coronavirus pandemic.

With regard to his politics, I think it is fair to say that he and I would not see eye to eye.



It's definitely a very one-sided view, but there are serious questions to be answered in regard to the SG's handling of Covid, especially the decision to move Covid patients en-masse into Care Homes (if indeed that is what happened).

Personally, I'd welcome an open and independent enquiry when it's all over.

[One Day Soon]

Loving how the immediate Nationalist first stop on this stuff is to try to go for the person rather than engage with the points made. Almost as if the only important thing is to descredit anyone who has the temerity to ask any questions...

[One Day Soon]

A very angry Unionist and hardly an impartial view.

Judging by some of the comments in the closing paragraphs, it could have been written by you ODS.

That’s very flattering AMS but I didn’t write it.

[ronaldo7]

Loving how the immediate Nationalist first stop on this stuff is to try to go for the person rather than engage with the points made. Almost as if the only important thing is to descredit anyone who has the temerity to ask any questions...

Painting him as only a little care worker didn't lend much support to his argument. Im all for open questions from everyone on the subject, when this is all done and dusted. I'm sure he'll continue to have a go at the FM as a 16 yr old who really doesn't know much.

[One Day Soon]

That's good. I don't do Facebook.

Neither do I. His Facebook posts - assuming that’s what they are - were retweeted by someone else on, well, Twitter. He raises thought provoking questions, but there’s no reason why .net should have answers to them all.

[Rumble de Thump]

If anyone can read that and pretend it's anything other than a pathetic and ignorant attack on Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP and Scottish independence it's simply because they share the same ideology and will latch on to anything they think can supports that.

[Moulin Yarns]

Neither do I. His Facebook posts - assuming that’s what they are - were retweeted by someone else on, well, Twitter. He raises thought provoking questions, but there’s no reason why .net should have answers to them all.

I wonder what the game today was like, 25 minutes in. 😉

[One Day Soon]

If anyone can read that and pretend it's anything other than a pathetic and ignorant attack on Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP and Scottish independence it's simply because they share the same ideology and will latch on to anything they think can supports that.


With Nigel Farage, UKIP and Brexit substituted into the relevant parts that comment would read like the kind of dismissive refusal to deal with reality that Brexiteers are so fond of.

Attacking the questioner's motives and dismissing the questions raised because 'reasons' isn't addressing any of the substantive points.

[greenlex]

With Nigel Farage, UKIP and Brexit substituted into the relevant parts that comment would read like the kind of dismissive refusal to deal with reality that Brexiteers are so fond of.

Attacking the questioner's motives and dismissing the questions raised because 'reasons' isn't addressing any of the substantive points.

Are they substantive or perhaps only substantive depending on your viewpoint?

[One Day Soon]

Are they substantive or perhaps only substantive depending on your viewpoint?

Pretty cavalier to dismiss some of those questions and claims as unsubstantive. Hard to imagine equivalent claims against the Tory Govt being treated as ‘nothing to see here’. It speaks volumes though.

[greenlex]

Pretty cavalier to dismiss some of those questions and claims as unsubstantive. Hard to imagine equivalent claims against the Tory Govt being treated as ‘nothing to see here’. It speaks volumes though.

Not really they are either worth debate and substantive or they aren’t depending on what you feel is substantive. I’m not a supporter of the SNP or Sturgeon by the way. Cavalier you say?
FWIW I thought his Facebook post was a bit revisionist and easy to have a pop with hindsight. It smacked of Labour activist with SNP bad all over it. Much like the Labour Party in Scotland to be honest. To busy laying into the SNP as a party rather than providing opposition to government. Pretty lame IMO

[CloudSquall]

He started off with points that should definitely be put to the Scottish government on their handling of the virus but he ruins it by turning it into an anti indy rant at the end.

[JeMeSouviens]

A very angry Unionist and hardly an impartial view.

Judging by some of the comments in the closing paragraphs, it could have been written by you ODS.

How do you know it wasn’t? :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

He's already said he'd refuse behaviour training. Old dog and new tricks springs to mind, but basic civility costs nothing.

His mammy would have been disappointed.




suspension voted through

for 408
against 24



i do hope the old degenerate dinosaur at least loses out on his daily allowance, bet he's a very angry old goat now

[Future17]

suspension voted through

for 408
against 24



i do hope the old degenerate dinosaur at least loses out on his daily allowance, bet he's a very angry old goat now

Is there a list of the 24 against?

[ronaldo7]

Is there a list of the 24 against?

Mostly Tories, 7 cross benchers/ non affiliated and two labour.

Former archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey.
The Earl of sandwich.
Former telegraph editor Lord Charles Moore, handed a peerage by Boris Johnson earlier this year, to name but three.

Lord Leitch, Labour baron. Current chairman of Bupa, and current chancellor of Carnegie college, Dunfermline.

Such wonderful people running our institutions. 😠

[cabbageandribs1875]

Is there a list of the 24 against?


https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Lords/Division/2394?byMember=True#not-contents


not surprised to see former archbishop of canterbury on that list ....George Carey... anti-LGBT



Lord Leitch... voted content with the internal markets bill

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55234240

What a shambles.

[Curried]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55234240

What a shambles.

It is indeed. The BBC proof reader can't convert miles to kilometres.

[Peevemor]

It is indeed. The BBC proof reader can't convert miles to kilometres.

Even the scales on the bottom left of the map don't correspond. It must be a Brexit thing.

[marinello59]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55234240

What a shambles.

If Derek Mackay hadn’t decided that grooming was the way to go then this would surely have cost him his job. Sturgeon herself has big questions to answer as well.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55234240

What a shambles.

The biggest shambles is that the LNG isn't being manufactured in Grangemouth by INEOS, but then the owner of INEOS has also decided to honour Brexit by building his cars in France rather than the promised plant in Wales.

[Jones28]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55234240

What a shambles.

How the hell can something be allowed to be years late and double the budget?

[Jones28]

The biggest shambles is that the LNG isn't being manufactured in Grangemouth by INEOS, but then the owner of INEOS has also decided to honour Brexit by building his cars in France rather than the promised plant in Wales.

Do they have the facility to do so at Grangemouth?

[Ozyhibby]

This to me is the biggest failing in the SNP govt. ferries can be purchased of the shelf from hundreds of different yards around the world. It should be a fairly straight forward price of procurement. Trying to support companies in Scotland who can’t compete and don’t have the skills to do the job is madness. There are plenty industries in Scotland where we do compete globally but we can’t compete in every industry. Same goes for Bifab. Prestwick airport likely to go the same way.
Govt needs to stay out of private industry. It never worked in the 70’s and it’s not working now either.
Concentrate on making Scotland a great place to invest and relocate to and business will come here. No need for ministers to think they can run businesses themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

How the hell can something be allowed to be years late and double the budget?

Because the yard had no experience of building ferries and the govt kept changing the design after work started.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[weecounty hibby]

The ferry contract isn't good reading but is no different to almost every other government contract. NHS software, HS2, Crossrail, Aberdeen bypass, hospitals etc etc. In essence the way all governments handle major projects is pretty shambolic. It's not restricted to governments though. I have seen projects in business that have run over time and costs by months/years at the cost of multi millions

[Ozyhibby]

The ferry contract isn't good reading but is no different to almost every other government contract. NHS software, HS2, Crossrail, Aberdeen bypass, hospitals etc etc. In essence the way all governments handle major projects is pretty shambolic. It's not restricted to governments though. I have seen projects in business that have run over time and costs by months/years at the cost of multi millions

Ferries and Windmills can be bought at a fixed price.
I agree on the other stuff though. And we shouldn’t be taking shares in the companies building them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

The ferry contract isn't good reading but is no different to almost every other government contract. NHS software, HS2, Crossrail, Aberdeen bypass, hospitals etc etc. In essence the way all governments handle major projects is pretty shambolic. It's not restricted to governments though. I have seen projects in business that have run over time and costs by months/years at the cost of multi millions

I don’t think every other contract involves unexplained loan facilities or the nationalisation of the service provider. This is gold standard incompetence. Shipping companies world wide seem to get their vessels provided without anything near this level of additional expense. Meanwhile the services to our Islands continue to be sub standard as they await the arrival of the much needed new vessels.

[lucky]

This to me is the biggest failing in the SNP govt. ferries can be purchased of the shelf from hundreds of different yards around the world. It should be a fairly straight forward price of procurement. Trying to support companies in Scotland who can’t compete and don’t have the skills to do the job is madness. There are plenty industries in Scotland where we do compete globally but we can’t compete in every industry. Same goes for Bifab. Prestwick airport likely to go the same way.
Govt needs to stay out of private industry. It never worked in the 70’s and it’s not working now either.
Concentrate on making Scotland a great place to invest and relocate to and business will come here. No need for ministers to think they can run businesses themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why can’t Scotland compete in manufacturing? If you worked in any of the places you’ve mentioned would you be so keen to buy from abroad? Manufacturing did work in the 1970s in the UK unfortunately there was a belief that private was best this is and was ideological drivel. With proper investment and control the state can provide lots of jobs in manufacturing

[JimBHibees]

The ferry contract isn't good reading but is no different to almost every other government contract. NHS software, HS2, Crossrail, Aberdeen bypass, hospitals etc etc. In essence the way all governments handle major projects is pretty shambolic. It's not restricted to governments though. I have seen projects in business that have run over time and costs by months/years at the cost of multi millions

The difference between public and private is that you hear about the public sector debacles.

[One Day Soon]

I don’t think every other contract involves unexplained loan facilities or the nationalisation of the service provider. This is gold standard incompetence. Shipping companies world wide seem to get their vessels provided without anything near this level of additional expense. Meanwhile the services to our Islands continue to be sub standard as they await the arrival of the much needed new vessels.


It's what happens when a government decides to do a very, very questionable deal, then the project hits financial and technical difficulties and then the relationship you thought you were building with a titan of industry in an attempt to court economic credibility falls apart acrimoniously in public. So instead of being a hard-nosed business deal to acquire the kit needed the Scottish Government essentially regarded it as a gigantic extended good news political stunt and threw both large amounts of money and minimal amounts of due diligence at it because flags.

[Ozyhibby]

Why can’t Scotland compete in manufacturing? If you worked in any of the places you’ve mentioned would you be so keen to buy from abroad? Manufacturing did work in the 1970s in the UK unfortunately there was a belief that private was best this is and was ideological drivel. With proper investment and control the state can provide lots of jobs in manufacturing

We don’t have the skills base anymore in manufacturing and it would take a generation to rebuild it. The question is do we want to? Do young kids nowadays want to go into manufacturing the way they used to?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

The difference between public and private is that you hear about the public sector debacles.

To a degree, but then : Enron, Thomas Cook, Lehman Brothers, Boeing-737 Max, Volkswagen emissions and plenty more besides

[Smartie]

It's what happens when a government decides to do a very, very questionable deal, then the project hits financial and technical difficulties and then the relationship you thought you were building with a titan of industry in an attempt to court economic credibility falls apart acrimoniously in public. So instead of being a hard-nosed business deal to acquire the kit needed the Scottish Government essentially regarded it as a gigantic extended good news political stunt and threw both large amounts of money and minimal amounts of due diligence at it because flags.

I wouldn't actually disagree with any of this, although do you think that a similar stunt would simply not have happened under a Scottish or British Labour Party, wrapped in a flag that had a bit of red in addition to the blue and white?

[Moulin Yarns]

Do they have the facility to do so at Grangemouth?

Yep, and they import fracked shale gas from USA that can be used to produce it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ferries and Windmills can be bought at a fixed price.
I agree on the other stuff though. And we shouldn’t be taking shares in the companies building them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Buying off the shelf wind turbines doesn't support local employment or economy and ever wind farm has different requirements, heights of towers and length of blades are all designed for the local situation.

[The Modfather]

How the hell can something be allowed to be years late and double the budget?

Was Ann Budge involved? Maybe they forgot to order the ferries.

[One Day Soon]

I wouldn't actually disagree with any of this, although do you think that a similar stunt would simply not have happened under a Scottish or British Labour Party, wrapped in a flag that had a bit of red in addition to the blue and white?

No idea because that's all counterfactual, although there is a Tory government to currently look at and compare and of course previous Labour Governments. I suppose the most recent comparison would be the building of the aircraft carrier at Rosyth? I don't know how that did in terms of budget and/or time overrun.

[Jones28]

This to me is the biggest failing in the SNP govt. ferries can be purchased of the shelf from hundreds of different yards around the world. It should be a fairly straight forward price of procurement. Trying to support companies in Scotland who can’t compete and don’t have the skills to do the job is madness. There are plenty industries in Scotland where we do compete globally but we can’t compete in every industry. Same goes for Bifab. Prestwick airport likely to go the same way.
Govt needs to stay out of private industry. It never worked in the 70’s and it’s not working now either.
Concentrate on making Scotland a great place to invest and relocate to and business will come here. No need for ministers to think they can run businesses themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can't help but agree Ozy, seems bonkers to try to prop up industries that are failing for a reason. Seems to be an attempt to appeal to a base of people who wouldn't vote for the SNP regardless.

I should say I have no background in that particular area but if we could've have bought ferries off the shelf why the hell didn't we?

I bet the £200 million it's going to end up costing could have been used for re-training the guys who are unfortunately losing jobs and have a bit of change to spare.

[Smartie]

Can't help but agree Ozy, seems bonkers to try to prop up industries that are failing for a reason. Seems to be an attempt to appeal to a base of people who wouldn't vote for the SNP regardless.

I should say I have no background in that particular area but if we could've have bought ferries off the shelf why the hell didn't we?

I bet the £200 million it's going to end up costing could have been used for re-training the guys who are unfortunately losing jobs and have a bit of change to spare.

It would be interesting to know where every single penny of that £200 million actually ends up.

[Jones28]

Was Ann Budge involved? Maybe they forgot to order the ferries.

TBF she ordered the ferries, she just didn't order the engines and the insides remain unfinished.

[One Day Soon]

“Before long it will be Scotland’s turn to take back control” - Johanna Cherry

Not at all Brexity sounding.

[Peevemor]

“Before long it will be Scotland’s turn to take back control” - Johanna Cherry

Not at all Brexity sounding.

Maybe she's simply taking the piss out of Brexity people?

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe she's simply taking the piss out of Brexity people?

You say 'maybe'? 😉

[G B Young]

I don’t think every other contract involves unexplained loan facilities or the nationalisation of the service provider. This is gold standard incompetence. Shipping companies world wide seem to get their vessels provided without anything near this level of additional expense. Meanwhile the services to our Islands continue to be sub standard as they await the arrival of the much needed new vessels.

The kind of incompetence most other governments would be hauled over the coals for (along with sagas like the new Sick Kids hospital, which still lies all but empty at an annual cost of millions), yet by keeping the 'independence as a cure for ills' mantra front of mind the Scottish Government ensures the criticism is diluted.

[Peevemor]

The kind of incompetence most other governments would be hauled over the coals for (along with sagas like the new Sick Kids hospital, which still lies all but empty at an annual cost of millions), yet by keeping the 'independence as a cure for ills' mantra front of mind the Scottish Government ensures the criticism is diluted.

Independence was on the agenda at the SNP conference, given that it's their raison d'être I don't think even you could find anything baaaaaad in that.

Apart from that the Scottish Government appears to be splitting it's time between dealing with the coronavirus crisis and getting ready for the disaster that will be Brexit.

Where else have the Scottish Government been repeating this "mantra"?

[weecounty hibby]

The kind of incompetence most other governments would be hauled over the coals for (along with sagas like the new Sick Kids hospital, which still lies all but empty at an annual cost of millions), yet by keeping the 'independence as a cure for ills' mantra front of mind the Scottish Government ensures the criticism is diluted.
Hauled over the coals like the UK government have been for the complete **** show that HS2 is. Or the NHS software or many many others. I'm not defending the Scots government here but your example doesn't stack up. Enquiries will be set up and learnings will be talked about and the next big government contracts will be run just the same. And the government of any description won't be hauled over any coals.

[Berwickhibby]

Hauled over the coals like the UK government have been for the complete **** show that HS2 is. Or the NHS software or many many others. I'm not defending the Scots government here but your example doesn't stack up. Enquiries will be set up and learnings will be talked about and the next big government contracts will be run just the same. And the government of any description won't be hauled over any coals.

Just like this joke of an enquiry where Salmond got paid £500k of tax payers money, where our ministers and civil servants refuse to answer questions....is the that sound of the rug lifting ...sweep sweep

[Peevemor]

Just like this joke of an enquiry where Salmond got paid £500k of tax payers money, where our ministers and civil servants refuse to answer questions....is the that sound of the rug lifting ...sweep sweep

No he didn't.

[weecounty hibby]

Just like this joke of an enquiry where Salmond got paid £500k of tax payers money, where our ministers and civil servants refuse to answer questions....is the that sound of the rug lifting ...sweep sweep

Completely. I can go back to the early 80s with regards to government scandal/incompetence. From Westland to the brexit ferry contracts from hospitals to Salmond. Very very few governments or even ministers ever get hauled over the coals as the poster I replied to suggested that the Scots gov should be. I am an SNP member and a huge Indy advocate but to suggest that the scots government will be treated differently to any other government

[Berwickhibby]

No he didn't.

Ok £512k of tax payers money https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/13/alex-salmond-awarded-512000-payout-after-botched-investigation

[Peevemor]

Ok £512k of tax payers money https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/13/alex-salmond-awarded-512000-payout-after-botched-investigation

It went to his lawyers, not him.

[Berwickhibby]

Completely. I can go back to the early 80s with regards to government scandal/incompetence. From Westland to the brexit ferry contracts from hospitals to Salmond. Very very few governments or even ministers ever get hauled over the coals as the poster I replied to suggested that the Scots gov should be. I am an SNP member and a huge Indy advocate but to suggest that the scots government will be treated differently to any other government

Over my lifetime there's have been hundreds of public money mismanagement, regardless who was in Government at the time. Bottom line is little or nothing is ever done and the taxpayer tends to foot the bill.

[Berwickhibby]

Ok £512k of tax payers money https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/13/alex-salmond-awarded-512000-payout-after-botched-investigation

Still taxpayers money....£500k could do a lot of good within public services not ligning Salmond and his lawyers pockets

[marinello59]

Independence was on the agenda at the SNP conference, given that it's their raison d'être I don't think even you could find anything baaaaaad in that.

Apart from that the Scottish Government appears to be splitting it's time between dealing with the coronavirus crisis and getting ready for the disaster that will be Brexit.

Where else have the Scottish Government been repeating this "mantra"?


What’s your opinion on how this ferry contract was handled?

[Peevemor]

What’s your opinion on how this ferry contract was handled?

That's nothing to do with my post but I'll try to answer.

I think trying to keep the construction/contract in Scotland is a good idea if practicable, as is the choice of a cleaner fuel choice, but being so late and so over budget something has obviously gone badly wrong - though I honestly don't know enough to say who's to blame.

[Peevemor]

Still taxpayers money....£500k could do a lot of good within public services not ligning Salmond and his lawyers pockets

I'm not a fan of Salmond, but it's unfair to accuse him of lining his pockets in this instance.

[Berwickhibby]

I'm not a fan of Salmond, but it's unfair to accuse him of lining his pockets in this instance.

Questions need to be asked as if I recall he crowd funded (begging bowl) for his legal costs and then there is another big bill ....something is not right

[Radium]

When you’re spending the publics money you should expect to be held to account and this ferry contract is a mess. From the committee update on the SP website the tender has been secured without a planned vessel, the contract has allowed the management at the yard to cherry pick bits to build that triggered payments, design updates on the hoof are rarely cheap whatever industry you are in and an interest keeping a company afloat have come together to waste £100M.

It is of little comfort that previous tenders have been delivered on time and on budget

https://www.parliament.scot/newsandmediacentre/116694.aspx

Rarely does it get you credit from other politicians when you admit a mistake but this is one of those cases where the criticism is correct and mistakes need to be acknowledged and fixed. The difficulty will be dealing with hyperbolic language but that’s part of the territory


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[Ozyhibby]

Still taxpayers money....£500k could do a lot of good within public services not ligning Salmond and his lawyers pockets

Just his Lawyers.[emoji23]


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[Peevemor]

Questions need to be asked as if I recall he crowd funded (begging bowl) for his legal costs and then there is another big bill ....something is not right

He was accused of something which he denies (with all charges being dismissed). Why should an innocent man pay that much money from his own pocket. Nobody was forced to donate to his crowdfunding.

IIRC he stated that all unused funds will be distributed to good causes.

As I said I'm not that keen on Salmond, but he has previous for giving large sums of money (eg. from double mandates) to local charities when he was under no obligation whatsoever to do so.

[Berwickhibby]

He was accused of something which he denies. Why should an innocent man pay that much money from his own pocket. Nobody was forced to donate to his crowdfunding.

IIRC he stated that all unused funds will be distributed to good causes.

As I said I'm not that keen on Salmond, but he has previous for giving large sums of money (eg. from double mandates) to local charities when he was under no obligation whatsoever to do so.

I am happy to stand corrected, I keep reading about his charitable acts, but apart from the the Mary Salmond charity which he gave one of his salaries to, there appears the be no links to others. He crowd funded £100k, due to winning his case in court of session there would be no legal costs....

[Peevemor]

I am happy to stand corrected, I keep reading about his charitable acts, but apart from the the Mary Salmond charity which he gave one of his salaries to, there appears the be no links to others. He crowd funded £100k, due to winning his case in court of session there would be no legal costs....



Since the Trust was established in 2007, 399 grants amounting to £157,682 have been awarded, an average of £395 per grant.

https://www.marysalmondtrust.com/who-weve-helped/

Salmond has money but doesn't appear to desire unlimited wealth over and above his already comfortable lifesyle.

If he was pocketing money after having pledged it to good causes, I'm sure there'd be plenty people keeping us informed of it.

[marinello59]

https://www.marysalmondtrust.com/who-weve-helped/

Salmond has money but doesn't appear to desire unlimited wealth over and above his already comfortable lifesyle.

If he was pocketing money after having pledged it to good causes, I'm sure there'd be plenty people keeping us informed of it.

I’m sure every other candidate in his constituency would have liked a few grand of Government money to redistribute in the local area as Salmond had. He could of course have turned the second salary down but that wouldn’t have been the Salmond way. Remember he excused his excessive food expenses claim by saying the system let him do it.

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.marysalmondtrust.com/who-weve-helped/

Salmond has money but doesn't appear to desire unlimited wealth over and above his already comfortable lifesyle.

If he was pocketing money after having pledged it to good causes, I'm sure there'd be plenty people keeping us informed of it.

Of course he doesn't, he draws six Government pensions (yes he is entitled to them) he awarded himself a £91k salary from his media company...yeah he does not desire wealth

[Peevemor]

Of course he doesn't, he draws six Government pensions (yes he is entitled to them) he awarded himself a £91k salary from his media company...yeah he does not desire wealthSo it's a bad thing that he gives some of his money away, even though he doesn't need to?

(I'm fairly sure he donates one of his pensions too).

[G B Young]

Independence was on the agenda at the SNP conference, given that it's their raison d'être I don't think even you could find anything baaaaaad in that.

Apart from that the Scottish Government appears to be splitting it's time between dealing with the coronavirus crisis and getting ready for the disaster that will be Brexit.

Where else have the Scottish Government been repeating this "mantra"?

The point I was trying to make was that for those to whom gaining independence is more important than holding the Scottish government to account, any incompetence on the government's part tends to get brushed aside, with a hefty dose of whataboutery thrown in.

[Peevemor]

The point I was trying to make was that for those to whom gaining independence is more important than holding the Scottish government to account, any incompetence on the government's part tends to get brushed aside, with a hefty dose of whataboutery thrown in.Possibly, but surely it'd be better having only one government to call to account than 2.

[weecounty hibby]

The point I was trying to make was that for those to whom gaining independence is more important than holding the Scottish government to account, any incompetence on the government's part tends to get brushed aside, with a hefty dose of whataboutery thrown in.
Again, I am not defending the Scottish government here but can you point to your Tory Westminster government being held to account on the many many **** ups they are currently presiding over and the ones they have been guilty of over the last decade or so.
As I've said in a few posts now, governments don't get held to account. They may get voted out at some point but being held to account doesn't happen. They gave some awkward questions, waffle a bit and then everyone moves on

[degenerated]

Possibly, but surely it'd be better having only one government to call to account than 2.And its always easier to hold a government to account when its in the same country.

[Skol]

The ferry contract isn't good reading but is no different to almost every other government contract. NHS software, HS2, Crossrail, Aberdeen bypass, hospitals etc etc. In essence the way all governments handle major projects is pretty shambolic. It's not restricted to governments though. I have seen projects in business that have run over time and costs by months/years at the cost of multi millions

A pink bus shelter with glass windaes for example

[marinello59]

Again, I am not defending the Scottish government here but can you point to your Tory Westminster government being held to account on the many many **** ups they are currently presiding over and the ones they have been guilty of over the last decade or so.
As I've said in a few posts now, governments don't get held to account. They may get voted out at some point but being held to account doesn't happen. They gave some awkward questions, waffle a bit and then everyone moves on

If Mackay was still in position he would have or should have been getting sacked over this. This goes far beyond the normal cock ups, the Scottish Government knew it was a mess but then decided to double down by throwing even more money away. BiFab has been a fiasco, this is on another level altogether. Saying Westminster is worse is of little comfort to our Island communities, they deserve a much better ferry service then they are getting.

[weecounty hibby]

If Mackay was still in position he would have or should have been getting sacked over this. This goes far beyond the normal cock ups, the Scottish Government knew it was a mess but then decided to double down by throwing even more money away. BiFab has been a fiasco, this is on another level altogether. Saying Westminster is worse is of little comfort to our Island communities, they deserve a much better ferry service then they are getting.
I am not saying Westminster is worse at all and as I have said many times I am not defending the Scottish government over this. That is not my point. People are saying the government needs to be held to account. That just doesn't happen to any government anywhere. I'm not saying that is right but it's what happens.

[marinello59]

I am not saying Westminster is worse at all and as I have said many times I am not defending the Scottish government over this. That is not my point. People are saying the government needs to be held to account. That just doesn't happen to any government anywhere. I'm not saying that is right but it's what happens.

Sorry, I do get that you aren’t defending the Scottish Government here.

[allmodcons]

The point I was trying to make was that for those to whom gaining independence is more important than holding the Scottish government to account, any incompetence on the government's part tends to get brushed aside, with a hefty dose of whataboutery thrown in.

Some of us are sensible enough to accept and acknowledge that Governments make mistakes and nobody is denying that the SNP Government makes mistakes and should be held to account. The fact that the opposition are **** is hardly the SNP's fault.

For me gaining Independence is the priority but, if I were to put that to one side (just for a minute), the options available to me other than the SNP are nothing short of shocking.

Yes the current Government makes mistakes, but Christ only knows how bad things would be with the likes of Ruth Davidson, Jackson Carlaw, Richard Leonard, James Kelly or Willie Rennie trying to run our country!

[One Day Soon]

Some of us are sensible enough to accept and acknowledge that Governments make mistakes and nobody is denying that the SNP Government makes mistakes and should be held to account. The fact that the opposition are **** is hardly the SNP's fault.

For me gaining Independence is the priority but, if I were to put that to one side (just for a minute), the options available to me other than the SNP are nothing short of shocking.

Yes the current Government makes mistakes, but Christ only knows how bad things would be with the likes of Ruth Davidson, Jackson Carlaw, Richard Leonard, James Kelly or Willie Rennie trying to run our country!


I hope you're sitting down AMC because I'm going to largely agree with you, apart from the blanket 'nobody is denying' claim because clearly one or two posters consistently disprove that.

The options available ARE nothing short of shocking. I'm not sure how good or bad any of these people would be as First Minister, you don't really know until they are in office - though Johnson is predictably as bad a Prime Minister as was expected. However they are all pretty ineffectual in opposition, albeit that it is not easy to shine in opposition. Even Salmond, who is/was a genuine first rank political figure, struggled to make much impact as opposition leader in the Scottish Parliament.

I'm not sure that the SNP Government makes more mistakes than any other governments more or less, my main criticisms are more about what they do or don't set out to do in the first place. However they are not served well as a government by having ineffectual opposition, uncritical and supine backbenchers and a leadership which appears to have heavily centralised control of party and government in very few hands. It all keeps messaging control strong but means that when the failures come they will often be big.

[allmodcons]

I hope you're sitting down AMC because I'm going to largely agree with you, apart from the blanket 'nobody is denying' claim because clearly one or two posters consistently disprove that.

The options available ARE nothing short of shocking. I'm not sure how good or bad any of these people would be as First Minister, you don't really know until they are in office - though Johnson is predictably as bad a Prime Minister as was expected. However they are all pretty ineffectual in opposition, albeit that it is not easy to shine in opposition. Even Salmond, who is/was a genuine first rank political figure, struggled to make much impact as opposition leader in the Scottish Parliament.

I'm not sure that the SNP Government makes more mistakes than any other governments more or less, my main criticisms are more about what they do or don't set out to do in the first place. However they are not served well as a government by having ineffectual opposition, uncritical and supine backbenchers and a leadership which appears to have heavily centralised control of party and government in very few hands. It all keeps messaging control strong but means that when the failures come they will often be big.

Thankfully I was sitting down!

Your final paragraph is spot on. I completely agree with what you say about backbenchers being supine and there is absolutely no doubt that ineffectual opposition often leads to complacent government.

There is some hope within the SNP that the centralised control you speak of is coming under serious scrutiny from within the rank and file of the party.

I, for one, hope this is the case but fear that some of those who want to see the party decentralised are entryists with an ulterior motive.

[One Day Soon]

Thankfully I was sitting down!

Your final paragraph is spot on. I completely agree with what you say about backbenchers being supine and there is absolutely no doubt that ineffectual opposition often leads to complacent government.

There is some hope within the SNP that the centralised control you speak of is coming under serious scrutiny from within the rank and file of the party.

I, for one, hope this is the case but fear that some of those who want to see the party decentralised are entryists with an ulterior motive.


Entryists, splitters. Don't get me started.

All parties in government eventually start to crack under their own internal weaknesses, that is inevitable. I think 2021 will be much more interesting in Scottish politics with almost all of the parties racing against a counting down clock, trying to get to where they need to before other events overtake them. Though what would qualify as success will vary obviously...

[Moulin Yarns]

http://ismympaprick.co.uk/

Have fun

[TrapperJohn]

http://ismympaprick.co.uk/

Have fun

They must still be working on the algorithm ... Your man Pistol Pete is down as a good guy but Joanna is not :wink:

[wookie70]

http://ismympaprick.co.uk/

Have fun
Ian Murray is not a prick proved to me that the algorithm is way off

[Callum_62]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/24/scotland-independence-referendum-nicola-sturgeon-snp-wins-may-

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[Keith_M]

http://ismympaprick.co.uk/

Have fun

Woohoo!

24262

[AugustaHibs]

I’ve voted snp since I was of legal age and voted ‘yes’ but I cannot get behind sturgeon any longer. The below article shows that she will do anything in her power to **** over the U.K. government no matter the cost to her own people.

Does she not realise that by doing this the whole vaccine program is in jeopardy? This could stop people from getting the vaccine in time and cost lives.

Absolutely pathetic.

https://t.co/j31iTFhb4j

[Ozyhibby]

I’ve voted snp since I was of legal age and voted ‘yes’ but I cannot get behind sturgeon any longer. The below article shows that she will do anything in her power to **** over the U.K. government no matter the cost to her own people.

Does she not realise that by doing this the whole vaccine program is in jeopardy? This could stop people from getting the vaccine in time and cost lives.

Absolutely pathetic.

https://t.co/j31iTFhb4j

What else is she to do when the UK govt leak misleading figures every day to the press to try discredit her? The truth is the only defence surely or should she just let them carry on?


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[StevieC]

I’ve voted snp since I was of legal age and voted ‘yes’ but I cannot get behind sturgeon any longer. The below article shows that she will do anything in her power to **** over the U.K. government no matter the cost to her own people.

Does she not realise that by doing this the whole vaccine program is in jeopardy? This could stop people from getting the vaccine in time and cost lives.

Absolutely pathetic.

https://t.co/j31iTFhb4j

Just to put a bit of perspective on the article..

The SNP were under attack at Holyrood for not disclosing figures
.. they disclosed figures
The SNP were then under attack from UK for disclosing figures
.. they stopped disclosing figures
England disclosed some figures (north of England if I remember correctly)
Misleading figures were disclosed and the SNP came under attack at Holyrood again
.. they say they will now disclose figures so there is more transparency

Not sure they can do anything without coming under attack for it, either by UK media or Tories at Holyrood.

Being held to account is one thing, but if the examples above are anything to go by it’s gone way beyond that

[weecounty hibby]

I’ve voted snp since I was of legal age and voted ‘yes’ but I cannot get behind sturgeon any longer. The below article shows that she will do anything in her power to **** over the U.K. government no matter the cost to her own people.

Does she not realise that by doing this the whole vaccine program is in jeopardy? This could stop people from getting the vaccine in time and cost lives.

Absolutely pathetic.

https://t.co/j31iTFhb4j
They can't win. Tories asked for data. Data released. Tiries complain about data being released. Toriesbthem start using data incorrectly and using it to beat up Scottish government. Scottish government want to correct the misinformation, Tories claim lives will be at risk. Sorry if you feel that is an issue caused by the Scottish government but I think you are wrong. Im afraid the opposition parties, Tories in particular have been playing party politics with these figures every day.

[degenerated]

They can't win. Tories asked for data. Data released. Tiries complain about data being released. Toriesbthem start using data incorrectly and using it to beat up Scottish government. Scottish government want to correct the misinformation, Tories claim lives will be at risk. Sorry if you feel that is an issue caused by the Scottish government but I think you are wrong. Im afraid the opposition parties, Tories in particular have been playing party politics with these figures every day.The have also been releasing figures to the media about Scotland when it suits them. Its either secret or its not.

[ronaldo7]

I’ve voted snp since I was of legal age and voted ‘yes’ but I cannot get behind sturgeon any longer. The below article shows that she will do anything in her power to **** over the U.K. government no matter the cost to her own people.

Does she not realise that by doing this the whole vaccine program is in jeopardy? This could stop people from getting the vaccine in time and cost lives.

Absolutely pathetic.


https://t.co/j31iTFhb4j

Now that you've had the article explained, are you still of the same opinion. Fair do's if you are. :aok:


What else is she to do when the UK govt leak misleading figures every day to the press to try discredit her? The truth is the only defence surely or should she just let them carry on?


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Just to put a bit of perspective on the article..

The SNP were under attack at Holyrood for not disclosing figures
.. they disclosed figures
The SNP were then under attack from UK for disclosing figures
.. they stopped disclosing figures
England disclosed some figures (north of England if I remember correctly)
Misleading figures were disclosed and the SNP came under attack at Holyrood again
.. they say they will now disclose figures so there is more transparency

Not sure they can do anything without coming under attack for it, either by UK media or Tories at Holyrood.

Being held to account is one thing, but if the examples above are anything to go by it’s gone way beyond that


They can't win. Tories asked for data. Data released. Tiries complain about data being released. Toriesbthem start using data incorrectly and using it to beat up Scottish government. Scottish government want to correct the misinformation, Tories claim lives will be at risk. Sorry if you feel that is an issue caused by the Scottish government but I think you are wrong. Im afraid the opposition parties, Tories in particular have been playing party politics with these figures every day.
.

[cabbageandribs1875]

:agree:https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/144578004_870630763480304_6227916368597087460_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=ya4IpFoL2tgAX8mv8NC&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=c8d6505a76502c16bc8950d8d9b19410&oe=603D8BAC



nasty tories must hate reading stuff like this, yet they try and discredit her.... plums,all of them

[Pretty Boy]

What's the story with the NEC meeting?

I read Cameron McNeish saying he was considering his membership on Twitter. I don't really follow him for his poiitics but he always appears to be calling for people to toe the line so it surprised me. Seems to be a bit of a stooshie about list candidates and an unfair vote from what I can gather. The Rev was right in there with a typically transphobic rant of course.

[weecounty hibby]

What's the story with the NEC meeting?

I read Cameron McNeish saying he was considering his membership on Twitter. I don't really follow him for his poiitics but he always appears to be calling for people to toe the line so it surprised me. Seems to be a bit of a stooshie about list candidates and an unfair vote from what I can gather. The Rev was right in there with a typically transphobic rant of course.
It seems like someone on the NEC has been feeding wings with information on discussions for list MSPs. Wings as usual has launched into exactly what you describe and using the info to attack the SNP. The rev is a clown and his constant attacks on the only vehicle that has any chance of delivering independence makes you question just how much he actually wants to see an independent Scotland unless it is his vision of one

[ronaldo7]

Joanna Cherry sacked from the front bench.

She says that Westminster is increasingly irrelevant to Scotlands constitutional future.

[Peevemor]

Joanna Cherry sacked from the front bench.

Not a huge surprise but a pity all the same.

[Bristolhibby]

It seems like someone on the NEC has been feeding wings with information on discussions for list MSPs. Wings as usual has launched into exactly what you describe and using the info to attack the SNP. The rev is a clown and his constant attacks on the only vehicle that has any chance of delivering independence makes you question just how much he actually wants to see an independent Scotland unless it is his vision of one

I know, I can’t make sense really. Beginning to think when we get independence he will be irrelevant and he knows it.

Surely if you have a problem with the SNP you hold your nose until after independence. As you said, they are the biggest game in town.

His stuff in 2014 was invaluable, now he is just a liability. And his anti trans stuff is laughable. What a hill to die on!

J

[CropleyWasGod]

Joanna Cherry sacked from the front bench.

She says that Westminster is increasingly irrelevant to Scotlands constitutional future.

Do you think that's linked to the post above yours?

[ronaldo7]

Do you think that's linked to the post above yours?

Most definitely.

[Peevemor]

Do you think that's linked to the post above yours?


Most definitely.

Maybe the final straw, but she's been overtly at odds with Sturgeon on a few things now. She was due a slapping down.

[Mr Grieves]

Maybe the final straw, but she's been overtly at odds with Sturgeon on a few things now. She was due a slapping down.

Yep, she's taken every opportunity to undermine Sturgeon and the party.

https://twitter.com/AngryScotland/status/1332749679746895872?s=20

[Ozyhibby]

Best to have a full on battle now and get it over with. [emoji106]


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[weecounty hibby]

We are in danger if doing that historically Scottish thing in putting self interest, ego, petty differences ahead of the greater good. I don't give a **** who leads us to indepen, i don't give a **** who said what about who and when, I don't give a **** if they are all besties or not. Get independence over the line and then let's debate where we go as a country. If Cherry and Sturgeon end up in different parties after so what. If Salmond stands for the Salmond is great party so ****ing what. We then get a chance to vote for them all or not as the case may be. So frustrating. Im hoping that its a twitter storm and most normal Yes folk see through it and will get on with the job of making an Independent Scotland a reality

[Ozyhibby]

We are in danger if doing that historically Scottish thing in putting self interest, ego, petty differences ahead of the greater good. I don't give a **** who leads us to indepen, i don't give a **** who said what about who and when, I don't give a **** if they are all besties or not. Get independence over the line and then let's debate where we go as a country. If Cherry and Sturgeon end up in different parties after so what. If Salmond stands for the Salmond is great party so ****ing what. We then get a chance to vote for them all or not as the case may be. So frustrating. Im hoping that its a twitter storm and most normal Yes folk see through it and will get on with the job of making an Independent Scotland a reality

It’s more than a Twitter storm now. Cherry and Sturgeon are fully at war. Not sure how Cherry wins this though?


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[greenlex]

We are in danger if doing that historically Scottish thing in putting self interest, ego, petty differences ahead of the greater good. I don't give a **** who leads us to indepen, i don't give a **** who said what about who and when, I don't give a **** if they are all besties or not. Get independence over the line and then let's debate where we go as a country. If Cherry and Sturgeon end up in different parties after so what. If Salmond stands for the Salmond is great party so ****ing what. We then get a chance to vote for them all or not as the case may be. So frustrating. Im hoping that its a twitter storm and most normal Yes folk see through it and will get on with the job of making an Independent Scotland a reality
Spot on and exactly where I am.

[ronaldo7]

Spot on and exactly where I am.

I think most of us are. Those looking in will be disappointed. :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

It’s more than a Twitter storm now. Cherry and Sturgeon are fully at war. Not sure how Cherry wins this though?


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She won't, but it is a pity its come to this as she is a very competent MP and could be a huge asset. As I say so very Scottish to start infighting amongst ourselves and not fighting together for one cause

[weecounty hibby]

I think most of us are. Those looking in will be disappointed. :greengrin
Let's hope so. But it makes me so angry. We are closer than we have ever been for the last 300 years and shut like this happens. I could weep

[SHODAN]

Joanna Cherry sacked from the front bench.

Fantastic news.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Maybe the final straw, but she's been overtly at odds with Sturgeon on a few things now. She was due a slapping down.


this unfortunately

[Bristolhibby]

She won't, but it is a pity its come to this as she is a very competent MP and could be a huge asset. As I say so very Scottish to start infighting amongst ourselves and not fighting together for one cause

I’ve said it on this thread before I think.

It’s like the Republicans in the Spanish Civil war. Too busy infighting to focus on winning the war against the Fascists.

Eyes on the prize people. We can have a good ole ding dong about trans rights once we get independence.

J

[Pretty Boy]

I’ve said it on this thread before I think.

It’s like the Republicans in the Spanish Civil war. Too busy infighting to focus on winning the war against the Fascists.

Eyes on the prize people. We can have a good ole ding dong about trans rights once we get independence.

J

That's it for me.

When it comes to independence the SNP is the only show in town. For a variety of reasons I don't really want to vote for them but I'll probably hold my nose and do so again whenever the Scottish elections happen.

Post independence we will have an SNP govt for the first parliamentary term whilst other parties spring up and indeed some in the SNP gravitate to more natural homes.

I'm wary of saying all of the above because it goes against a lot of my natural instincts but it's where we are. It's like being 2-0 up in the 89th minute, you just have to make sure you don't do anything stupid.

[G B Young]

Quite a lot being made here of Cherry's support for Salmond:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55884760

Is that a key factor in her sacking?

[Ryan91]

Maybe the final straw, but she's been overtly at odds with Sturgeon on a few things now. She was due a slapping down.

Also been seen recently supporting someone who was banned from Twitter for Transphobic comments as well as a nice dose of anti-Semitism.

She's a very divisive figure, adored by some, vilified by others, she's my MP, but aside from her Brexit legal battle, I've never really paid much attention to her.

[Peevemor]

Quite a lot being made here of Cherry's support for Salmond:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55884760

Is that a key factor in her sacking?

It certainly won't have helped.


Also been seen recently supporting someone who was banned from Twitter for Transphobic comments as well as a nice dose of anti-Semitism.

She's a very divisive figure, adored by some, vilified by others, she's my MP, but aside from her Brexit legal battle, I've never really paid much attention to her.

I was in her company a few times years ago - her wee sister was going out with a mate of mine (and is now married to another mate of mine). She was absolutely fine and is obviously a very smart cookie, but I understand why she can be difficult to warm to. Definitely a marmite personality.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sturgeon-s-purge-why-joanna-cherry-had-to-go/amp?__twitter_impression=true

It’s a good day for Daisley.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Also been seen recently supporting someone who was banned from Twitter for Transphobic comments as well as a nice dose of anti-Semitism.

She's a very divisive figure, adored by some, vilified by others, she's my MP, but aside from her Brexit legal battle, I've never really paid much attention to her.

I think, as we saw with JK Rowling, you don't have to say very much to be labelled a transphobe. It's not something I know much about, and tbh, it's so divisive that I'm very hesitant to dip my toes in trans waters, but if obviously intelligent, thoughtful women like Rowling and Cherry are dismissed as intolerant bigots, then I think something's going far wrong with even the start of a debate.

The SNP's leadership's policy on gender recognition and trans rights might be absolutely correct for all I know, but I am absolutely sure that they are way ahead of public opinion and making policy while completely failing to take public mood with them. You can't have a debate like this out of public sight.

Of course that's only one strand of the SNP factional divide, there is also Salmond and the amount of militancy/agitation that should be deployed towards a 2nd ref/plan B etc. It will be a tragedy if things fall apart just as a sustained indy majority has been achieved. Could all end up a bit Fine Gael/Fianna Fail.

[CloudSquall]

From what I understood a number of Twitter accounts declared they were leaving the SNP due to abuse of trans people by SNP members and lack of action on it, Sturgeon came out with a statement on it, a further rammy ensued due to a decision made by the NEC on BAME and disabled candidates topping list selections, and now Cherry is out of the front bench.

What surprises me is that they have taken the decision to turn this from a Twitter bubble handbags at 10 situation that no one in the real world knew about into a "real world" story that can be used by the opposition to show the SNP is tearing itself apart.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think, as we saw with JK Rowling, you don't have to say very much to be labelled a transphobe. It's not something I know much about, and tbh, it's so divisive that I'm very hesitant to dip my toes in trans waters, but if obviously intelligent, thoughtful women like Rowling and Cherry are dismissed as intolerant bigots, then I think something's going far wrong with even the start of a debate.

The SNP's leadership's policy on gender recognition and trans rights might be absolutely correct for all I know, but I am absolutely sure that they are way ahead of public opinion and making policy while completely failing to take public mood with them. You can't have a debate like this out of public sight.

Of course that's only one strand of the SNP factional divide, there is also Salmond and the amount of militancy/agitation that should be deployed towards a 2nd ref/plan B etc. It will be a tragedy if things fall apart just as a sustained indy majority has been achieved. Could all end up a bit Fine Gael/Fianna Fail.

The thing about the Trans issue is that the SNP are currently the party in power, who have to come to some solution to what is a horrendously difficult issue. No other party needs to do anything much just now, but they can snipe from the sidelines.

Can you imagine the hell that would break out in the Labour party if they were in power? :rolleyes:

[CloudSquall]

https://www.snp.org/the-real-opposition-meet-your-new-snp-westminster-frontbench-team/

Here's the new front bench of the SNP, great link for a game of good guy w*nk :greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.snp.org/the-real-opposition-meet-your-new-snp-westminster-frontbench-team/

Here's the new front bench of the SNP, great link for a game of good guy w*nk :greengrin

Surprised to see Tommy Shepperd lose his role. He's always seemed pretty accomplished and has bags of experience.

[Prof. Shaggy]

I’ve said it on this thread before I think.

It’s like the Republicans in the Spanish Civil war. Too busy infighting to focus on winning the war against the Fascists.

Eyes on the prize people. We can have a good ole ding dong about trans rights once we get independence.

J



Wow!!!

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2021/02/sacking-joanna-cherry-nicola-sturgeon-has-made-her-nemesis-more-dangerous


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[Glory Lurker]

Not yet another SNP civil war? I've lost track of who I'm fighting against, or for.

[7 Up]

Remember when people used to accuse SNP MSPs/MPs of being robots who never dissented from the party line? Seems like a long time ago. Personally I'm happy to see Cherry being rebuked, she's a troublemaker who could start an argument in an empty room.

[Ozyhibby]

Remember when people used to accuse SNP MSPs/MPs of being robots who never dissented from the party line? Seems like a long time ago. Personally I'm happy to see Cherry being rebuked, she's a troublemaker who could start an argument in an empty room.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210201/ca2f90c45a3cabf413a3503aa0095023.jpg

Rounding up a Twitter possy as we speak.


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[Pretty Boy]

Remember when people used to accuse SNP MSPs/MPs of being robots who never dissented from the party line? Seems like a long time ago. Personally I'm happy to see Cherry being rebuked, she's a troublemaker who could start an argument in an empty room.

Tbf 'reshuffling' a prominent dissenter hardly suggests an environment in which a broad spectrum of opinion is welcomed.

[7 Up]

Tbf 'reshuffling' a prominent dissenter hardly suggests an environment in which a broad spectrum of opinion is welcomed.

Might be totally wrong, but I don't think she has been dropped because of her opinions on trans rights or anything else. Her public squabbling with other SNP MPs and numerous newspaper interviews hostile to the leadership are probably bigger factors. See also Kenny MacAskill and Angus MacNeil who have been guilty of the same and are also without frontbench jobs. A frontbench job requires a minimum degree of loyalty to the party leadership I would have thought.

[Ozyhibby]

Might be totally wrong, but I don't think she has been dropped because of her opinions on trans rights or anything else. Her public squabbling with other SNP MPs and numerous newspaper interviews hostile to the leadership are probably bigger factors. See also Kenny MacAskill and Angus MacNeil who have been guilty of the same and are also without frontbench jobs. A frontbench job requires a minimum degree of loyalty to the party leadership I would have thought.

100% agree. McNeil in particular comes across a petulant child.


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[TrapperJohn]

We are in danger if doing that historically Scottish thing in putting self interest, ego, petty differences ahead of the greater good. I don't give a **** who leads us to indepen, i don't give a **** who said what about who and when, I don't give a **** if they are all besties or not. Get independence over the line and then let's debate where we go as a country....

Totally agree with the above.

Why has this happened?
This and the latest SNP NEC carry on and the "Nov20 SNP conf" (that wasn't) are blatant attempts to maintain the status-quo by causing division within the SNP and the wider Yes movement in the lead up to May's election. It is only going to get noisier.

Joanna and Tommy have been the only ones in Westminster holding the Tories to account. The Tories will now have an easy ride.
With only 94 days left to the election the SNP should be keeping their best team on the field...but maybe that's not what some want.

Who has done this?
Those 'entitled' individuals who want to preserve their cushy numbers - playing politics - rather than focusing on what is happening now ...and what needs to be done to help the Scottish people in the future. They are ....sad sad people.


Does it matter
Hopefully not. People aren't stupid.
Currently the majority of people (according to the polls) want an independent, progressive and equal Scotland.
'Yes' activists want independence first as it is quite clear devolution can't hack it.
Hopefully both the activists and the public can see past personalities and focus on what Scotland can achieve as an independent nation.

[pacoluna]

Joanna cherry sacked from front bench.

[Moulin Yarns]

Joanna cherry sacked from front bench.

News travels fast I see. 😉

[HibernianJK]

What an absolute mess this has become.

[Peevemor]

Totally agree with the above.

Why has this happened?
This and the latest SNP NEC carry on and the "Nov20 SNP conf" (that wasn't) are blatant attempts to maintain the status-quo by causing division within the SNP and the wider Yes movement in the lead up to May's election. It is only going to get noisier.

Joanna and Tommy have been the only ones in Westminster holding the Tories to account. The Tories will now have an easy ride.
With only 94 days left to the election the SNP should be keeping their best team on the field...but maybe that's not what some want.

Who has done this?
Those 'entitled' individuals who want to preserve their cushy numbers - playing politics - rather than focusing on what is happening now ...and what needs to be done to help the Scottish people in the future. They are ....sad sad people.


Does it matter
Hopefully not. People aren't stupid.
Currently the majority of people (according to the polls) want an independent, progressive and equal Scotland.
'Yes' activists want independence first as it is quite clear devolution can't hack it.
Hopefully both the activists and the public can see past personalities and focus on what Scotland can achieve as an independent nation.

What? Ian Blackford doesn't hold the tories to account?

[JimBHibees]

What? Ian Blackford doesn't hold the tories to account?

On a daily basis

[SHODAN]

Independence can't come quick enough, the SNP is clearly fracturing between the progressive and conservative wings.

[Ozyhibby]

Independence can't come quick enough, the SNP is clearly fracturing between the progressive and conservative wings.

One of the drawbacks of attracting all the lefties is their habit of constantly splitting into ever smaller sub groups of ideological purity. Like herding cats.


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[lord bunberry]

Kenny MacAskill coming up on politics live. No doubt he’ll be indulging in a bit more **** stirring.

[Ozyhibby]

Kenny MacAskill coming up on politics live. No doubt he’ll be indulging in a bit more **** stirring.

So far he has been spot on in regards to the vaccine.


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[Bristolhibby]

One of the drawbacks of attracting all the lefties is their habit of constantly splitting into ever smaller sub groups of ideological purity. Like herding cats.


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Question, what group gives you better political capital? Progressives or Consevertives?

Which group will get you over the independence line? If it’s progressive young people, then that’s the group you target.

If you lose some on the way, that’s fine, as long as numbers solidify.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Kenny MacAskill coming up on politics live. No doubt he’ll be indulging in a bit more **** stirring.

Their biggest complaint seems to be that we are not being aggressive enough in seeking independence. I think once May is out the way and provided they don’t sabotage things so that the SNP don’t get a majority then the pace of things will speed up considerably.


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[lord bunberry]

So far he has been spot on in regards to the vaccine.


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He was.

[Ozyhibby]

Question, what group gives you better political capital? Progressives or Consevertives?

Which group will get you over the independence line? If it’s progressive young people, then that’s the group you target.

If you lose some on the way, that’s fine, as long as numbers solidify.

J

I think the SNP needs to be as close to the centre left as it can manage. That’s where the most votes are. As close to Tony Blair had Labour. From there you can get young voters but also not scare older voters who have houses and mortgages.


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[Smartie]

So far he has been spot on in regards to the vaccine.


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What did he have to say?

[Ozyhibby]

What did he have to say?

That the strategy to protect care homes was a good one, there are also serious questions that need to be asked about the pace of the vaccinations.


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[J-C]

Kenny MacAskill coming up on politics live. No doubt he’ll be indulging in a bit more **** stirring.


Spoke well about the vaccine and had to hold his tongue a bit when asked about Joanna Cherry, trying to say it happens in all parties. Instead of being strong together, Cherry I think is making a move for the top job, she's very pally with Salmond and MacAskill, 2 strong allies to try and oust Sturgeon.

[Jack]

Is she maybe lining up to become involved/leader of the Independence for Scotland Party?

She seems to be their golden girl.

[weecounty hibby]

Spoke well about the vaccine and had to hold his tongue a bit when asked about Joanna Cherry, trying to say it happens in all parties. Instead of being strong together, Cherry I think is making a move for the top job, she's very pally with Salmond and MacAskill, 2 strong allies to try and oust Sturgeon.

It is ****ing insanity if there is any challenge to NS as party leader. SNP miles in front in polls, Yes continually polling ahead, she is incredibly popular and has us closer to independence than we have been in 300 years. I used to have loads of time for Salmond and Cherry is hugely competent but I really wonder about what they are thinking about.

[One Day Soon]

It is ****ing insanity if there is any challenge to NS as party leader. SNP miles in front in polls, Yes continually polling ahead, she is incredibly popular and has us closer to independence than we have been in 300 years. I used to have loads of time for Salmond and Cherry is hugely competent but I really wonder about what they are thinking about.

What they are thinking about is they know there isn't going to be a referendum any time soon, they don't trust Sturgeon on the independence strategy, they are openly at war with each other's camps and this is effectively a political fight to the death. If you were them and you thought the next referendum won't be for another four or five years you may well think there is plenty enough time to settle scores and get a grip of the party.

[cabbageandribs1875]

they want the SG to give them covid tax relief....so they can continue attacking the SG...i'm sure all their rich tory unionist owners will survive

David Leask on Twitter: "Outcry as SNP ministers withdraw Covid support from Scottish press https://t.co/emfiFfqagy" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/LeaskyHT/status/1357620751877218306?s=19&fbclid=IwAR2WRXKznjxok5NPxRFdO_9_cZJRCKHBzzPJWWMlg ROwHC1mZlbe3Df3Big)





https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/146816204_1613683728819273_4983642313265041307_o.j pg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=Wn0yAn1jD7IAX9pMPNw&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=28a83e8ab5ad8bd3ea67c6030727a3d5&oe=60422493

[G B Young]

Cherry: I've been airbrushed from SNP history

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/joanna-cherry-says-she-has-been-airbrushed-snp-history-3125411

Where does she go from here? Is there any truth in talk of a separate 'harder line' independence party? Hard to believe anyone striving for independence would see that as anything other than damaging/divisive.

[Ozyhibby]

Cherry: I've been airbrushed from SNP history

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/joanna-cherry-says-she-has-been-airbrushed-snp-history-3125411

Where does she go from here? Is there any truth in talk of a separate 'harder line' independence party? Hard to believe anyone striving for independence would see that as anything other than damaging/divisive.

I doubt it. Very difficult to get a separate party up and running at this late stage for May. And Salmond is the only person who would stand half a chance of making it work.
Look at the reasonably big hitters involved in Change UK. Without a party infrastructure it’s almost impossible to make inroads. And the recent yougov poll shows that SNP voters back Sturgeon over Salmond.
Cherry has already shown she doesn’t have the bottle to give up what she already has or she would have stood to be an MSP. She’ll sit tight and carp from the back benches.


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[Curried]

I doubt it. Very difficult to get a separate party up and running at this late stage for May. And Salmond is the only person who would stand half a chance of making it work.
Look at the reasonably big hitters involved in Change UK. Without a party infrastructure it’s almost impossible to make inroads. And the recent yougov poll shows that SNP voters back Sturgeon over Salmond.
Cherry has already shown she doesn’t have the bottle to give up what she already has or she would have stood to be an MSP. She’ll sit tight and carp from the back benches.


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I may be wrong, but I thought that she tried to put herself forward as a candidate in the forthcoming May election, but was sidelined by the NEC.

[Mr Grieves]

I may be wrong, but I thought that she tried to put herself forward as a candidate in the forthcoming May election, but was sidelined by the NEC.

She could have stood in the forthcoming election but would have to stand down as an mp. Neil Gray is doing this, without a fuss:wink:


https://www.thenational.scot/news/18687656.neil-gray-becomes-first-snp-mp-declare-wants-stand-holyrood/

[Ozyhibby]

I may be wrong, but I thought that she tried to put herself forward as a candidate in the forthcoming May election, but was sidelined by the NEC.

She was still eligible to stand for election, she just could not keep her seat at Westminster as a back up. She needed to show some bravery but was found wanting.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Neale Hanvey loses his job now, just days after promotion......

SNP's Neale Hanvey sacked after backing campaign to sue Aberdeen MP Kirsty Blackman | Press and Journal (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/uk-politics/2879509/snps-neale-hanvey-sacked-after-backing-campaign-to-sue-aberdeen-mp-kirsty-blackman/amp/?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR0ljw8kyfQvySE63zKrhj3ZEcDSmz1L7Ox4unbTl uZvc_nOZ1rdkQJmCKc)


SNP frontbencher Neale Hanvey has been sacked after backing a campaign to sue his parliamentary colleague Kirsty Blackman.


and he couldn't even apologise

[G B Young]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/13AB/production/_116853050_heraldonsunday-feb7.jpg

I used to think the Herald was quite pro-SNP but lately they seem to have adopted a more critical stance.

[G B Young]

Neale Hanvey loses his job now, just days after promotion......

SNP's Neale Hanvey sacked after backing campaign to sue Aberdeen MP Kirsty Blackman | Press and Journal (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/uk-politics/2879509/snps-neale-hanvey-sacked-after-backing-campaign-to-sue-aberdeen-mp-kirsty-blackman/amp/?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR0ljw8kyfQvySE63zKrhj3ZEcDSmz1L7Ox4unbTl uZvc_nOZ1rdkQJmCKc)


SNP frontbencher Neale Hanvey has been sacked after backing a campaign to sue his parliamentary colleague Kirsty Blackman.


and he couldn't even apologise

I'm unclear from that what his offence was? Why was Blackman being sued?

The BBC report doesn't really make things any clearer:

SNP MP Neale Hanvey sacked from frontbench role - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55966929)

Whatever the issue, it strikes me he was rather hastily promoted so soon after the anti-Semitism controversy which saw him lose the whip.

[Keith_M]

I used to think the Herald was quite pro-SNP but lately they seem to have adopted a more critical stance.


They seem to go back and forward quite a bit, but have recently become quite anti-SNP (though nothing like the scale of the other papers).

The BTL comments are unbelievable in the last few months as well. It's almost like an organised anti-SNP campaign.

[degenerated]

They seem to go back and forward quite a bit, but have recently become quite anti-SNP (though nothing like the scale of the other papers).

The BTL comments are unbelievable in the last few months as well. It's almost like an organised anti-SNP campaign.They adopted a very anti snp stance in the lead up to the referendum in 2014, its been getting progressively worse since then. Guys like Paul Hutcheon (now of the record) and Tom Gordon have a visceral hatred of the snp and David Leask (now also gone) is involved with the integrity iniative thing.

[Keith_M]

They adopted a very anti snp stance in the lead up to the referendum in 2014, its been getting progressively worse since then. Guys like Paul Hutcheon (now of the record) and Tom Gordon have a visceral hatred of the snp and David Leask (now also gone) is involved with the integrity iniative thing.


The thing is, even although they had an editorial viewpoint at the time to say they supported staying in the UK, they were actually one of the least Anti-Independence of all the newspapers.

That says more about how over the top the others went.

[GlesgaeHibby]

It's utterly mental that in a nation where the majority favour independence, the national press are almost all exclusively pro union. And they wonder why readership numbers keep falling.

[Smartie]

It's utterly mental that in a nation where the majority favour independence, the national press are almost all exclusively pro union. And they wonder why readership numbers keep falling.

Newspapers are for old people.

They’re just writing the crap that the people who read them want to read.

[Since90+2]

Newspapers are for old people.

They’re just writing the crap that the people who read them want to read.

Very good point. I don't know anyone under the age of about 45 that ever reads a newspaper. You still get the older generation who buy their daily paper who tend to be more unionist.

[Hiber-nation]

They adopted a very anti snp stance in the lead up to the referendum in 2014, its been getting progressively worse since then. Guys like Paul Hutcheon (now of the record) and Tom Gordon have a visceral hatred of the snp and David Leask (now also gone) is involved with the integrity iniative thing.

And Martin Williams on the Sunday Herald is one of their main writers and while a good lad to have few pints with, is probably the most vehemently anti-Indy person I've ever met.

[allmodcons]

Newspapers are for old people.

They’re just writing the crap that the people who read them want to read.

:agree:

[SHODAN]

It's utterly mental that in a nation where the majority favour independence, the national press are almost all exclusively pro union. And they wonder why readership numbers keep falling.

As someone approaching their 30s all I see from the papers is one-way partisan propaganda that doesn't relate to me or anything I stand for. Print media will be dead up here in a couple of decades.

[G B Young]

As someone approaching their 30s all I see from the papers is one-way partisan propaganda that doesn't relate to me or anything I stand for. Print media will be dead up here in a couple of decades.

It already is IMHO. Folk just read what papers have to say online instead.

I would still buy a paper if I was able to sit in a cafe/pub for a couple of hours but it would likely be the Guardian or Telegraph ie something with a bit of quality writing and some chunky content rather than today's throwaway Scottish titles. It's a sorry state of affairs for those who grew up with a daily newspaper being their main source of news, because Scotland used to produce some great papers and journalists.