SNP nonsense

[cabbageandribs1875]

she's let herself and the party down BADLY

[lapsedhibee]

Been suspended and whip removed already. Unfortunately she can’t be sacked.


Maybe cold shouldered then, and horsewhipped, as well as suspended and unwhipped.

[Andy74]

she's let herself and the party down BADLY

She obviously shouldn’t have traveled in the first place but what’s the script if you test positive when travelling for work?

Fork out for a hotel to isolate in for a couple of weeks?

[JeMeSouviens]

She obviously shouldn’t have traveled in the first place but what’s the script if you test positive when travelling for work?

Fork out for a hotel to isolate in for a couple of weeks?

MPs get expenses for London 2nd homes. Not sure what the rest of us are meant to do though?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Further proof if needed that there is not one party at Holyrood that can claim the moral high ground over the others. Though the Greens may have avoided scandal so far, boring *******s. . :greengrin

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/specials/derek-mackay-anger-over-disgraced-former-finance-secretarys-holyrood-expenses-claims/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-ferrier-mp-coronavirus-parliament-apology-symptoms-b743160.html%3famp

We are saints :greengrin

[jonty]

She obviously shouldn’t have traveled in the first place but what’s the script if you test positive when travelling for work?

Fork out for a hotel to isolate in for a couple of weeks?

Seek advice should have been the very first thing should have done. That anyone should do.

[cabbageandribs1875]

She obviously shouldn’t have traveled in the first place but what’s the script if you test positive when travelling for work?

Fork out for a hotel to isolate in for a couple of weeks?

i've been too and fro with my demands for punishment :greengrin

i can maybe excuse the feeling better part, but the fact she's came back up after getting the result on monday night was sheer stupidity, i don't know her living arrangements in london but surely she must have at least thought of asking some senior party member for advice, which i would have thought would have been 'stay put' and follow the rules, i can only assume/hope she didn't tell anyone.

[Bristolhibby]

i've been too and fro with my demands for punishment :greengrin

i can maybe excuse the feeling better part, but the fact she's came back up after getting the result on monday night was sheer stupidity, i don't know her living arrangements in london but surely she must have at least thought of asking some senior party member for advice, which i would have thought would have been 'stay put' and follow the rules, i can only assume/hope she didn't tell anyone.

Indeed. Praise for the swift handling of this.

I would imagine that she would be fully supportive of being hung out to dry.

Rather that then some pantomime in the Downing Street Rose Garden involving eye tests, castles and 200 mile car journeys.

I believe this decisive action will be seen in a positive light.

J

[lucky]

Her actions were unlawful and jeopardised fellow passengers and rail staff. Losing the whip is nothing, she called for Cummings to be sacked so if she has such moral high standards she should resign her seat but she won’t just like Mackay and Mark McDonald. These people are there to make laws not break them. If you don’t want be judged on high standards don’t put yourself forward for office. I hope her constituents recall her.

[Colr]

Her actions were unlawful and jeopardised fellow passengers and rail staff. Losing the whip is nothing, she called for Cummings to be sacked so if she has such moral high standards she should resign her seat but she won’t just like Mackay and Mark McDonald. These people are there to make laws not break them. If you don’t want be judged on high standards don’t put yourself forward for office. I hope her constituents recall her.

Why do we continue to elect people who consider themselves above us and the rules we are asked to follow?

[degenerated]

Why do we continue to elect people who consider themselves above us and the rules we are asked to follow?Power corrupts, clearly.

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

Her actions were unlawful and jeopardised fellow passengers and rail staff. Losing the whip is nothing, she called for Cummings to be sacked so if she has such moral high standards she should resign her seat but she won’t just like Mackay and Mark McDonald. These people are there to make laws not break them. If you don’t want be judged on high standards don’t put yourself forward for office. I hope her constituents recall her.

I think to be able to recall her she would need to be suspended from the house for 10 days or more. If that happens (it should) then the SNP should lead the charge in campaigning to get the required amount of signatures. They need to show they are above what the Tories and Labour would do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

Why do we continue to elect people who consider themselves above us and the rules we are asked to follow?

From what I’m reading about her, it appears she is just not very clever at all which I think is just as worrying as voting in corrupt people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glory Lurker]

Her actions were unlawful and jeopardised fellow passengers and rail staff. Losing the whip is nothing, she called for Cummings to be sacked so if she has such moral high standards she should resign her seat but she won’t just like Mackay and Mark McDonald. These people are there to make laws not break them. If you don’t want be judged on high standards don’t put yourself forward for office. I hope her constituents recall her.

Agree.

[Glory Lurker]

I think to be able to recall her she would need to be suspended from the house for 10 days or more. If that happens (it should) then the SNP should lead the charge in campaigning to get the required amount of signatures. They need to show they are above what the Tories and Labour would do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree.

[Smartie]

Why do we continue to elect people who consider themselves above us and the rules we are asked to follow?

I don’t know how it can be done, but I think there needs to be some sort of campaign demanding a better standard of general behaviour from our politicians.

Having them thinking they can obey a different set of rules is a situation that has serious consequences - the government effectively lost control of the country in the wake of the Cummings business.

I’m genuinely furious about this. It isn’t just stupid - it’s wilfully dangerous.

We (the population) need to expect better.

Seriously, no wonder everyone’s just going f it.

This will cost lives, and it will prolong the crisis, irrespective of how well/ harshly Nicola deals with it.

[Bristolhibby]

If she loves the cause, she must resign and trigger a by-election.

And yes, I do hold the SNP in higher standards to Cummings, that other Tory on the train with a cough and Jezza Corbyn at a dinner party.

J

[marinello59]

I think to be able to recall her she would need to be suspended from the house for 10 days or more. If that happens (it should) then the SNP should lead the charge in campaigning to get the required amount of signatures. They need to show they are above what the Tories and Labour would do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Showing that they are above the Tories is hardly an ambitious target. The SNP positioned themselves as a different type of politics, a refreshing change to the corruption and sleaze of the Tories. It was always going to come back and bite them, every single political party will have it's fair share of miscreants. The problem for the SNP is that we are now seeing a long slow drip of bad behaviour which inevitably has a corrosive effect on their image and will eventually impact on their support. (Although they will be dominant for a long time yet.) There's still a lot of angry students out there who fairly or not blame the Scottish Government for the situation they are in, this is just going to alienate them further.
However the affect this has on the SNP comes a distant second to the damage Ferrier has done to our First Ministers authority in handling the pandemic. This goes well beyond party lines, not only has she put people directly at risk she has given the green light to anybody who doesn't like the rules to simply break them. I really feel for Sturgeon here having to overcome the deliberate actions of one of her party members, one way or another this is going to dominate today's briefing.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201002/c47892e05800efcc32d7c6c09a4eb52c.jpg
Clear and decisive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

Showing that they are above the Tories is hardly an ambitious target. The SNP positioned themselves as a different type of politics, a refreshing change to the corruption and sleaze of the Tories. It was always going to come back and bite them, every single political party will have it's fair share of miscreants. The problem for the SNP is that we are now seeing a long slow drip of bad behaviour which inevitably has a corrosive effect on their image and will eventually impact on their support. (Although they will be dominant for a long time yet.) There's still a lot of angry students out there who fairly or not blame the Scottish Government for the situation they are in, this is just going to alienate them further.
However the affect this has on the SNP comes a distant second to the damage Ferrier has done to our First Ministers authority in handling the pandemic. This goes well beyond party lines, not only has she put people directly at risk she has given the green light to anybody who doesn't like the rules to simply break them. I really feel for Sturgeon here having to overcome the deliberate actions of one of her party members, one way or another this is going to dominate today's briefing.

On the other hand, if Ferrier doesn't resign and Sturgeon moves to throw her out of the SNP, Sturgeon will have shown the SNP to be acting on a totally different moral plane to the Tories.

And what Ferrier did is hardly corruption or sleaze.

[marinello59]

On the other hand, if Ferrier doesn't resign and Sturgeon moves to throw her out of the SNP, Sturgeon will have shown the SNP to be acting on a totally different moral plane to the Tories.

And what Ferrier did is hardly corruption or sleaze.

I don't think that's an overly ambitious target to set. Even former Tory Governments were on a totally different moral plane from this lot. :greengrin

[SHODAN]

I agree that she has to resign and there be a by-election.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't think that's an overly ambitious target to set. Even former Tory Governments were on a totally different moral plane from this lot. :greengrin

True, but undecideds may well remember this stuff when it comes to the next election and referendum. The episode overall likely to turn into a vote winner rather than vote loser for SNP imo.

[ronaldo7]

I've been heartened by the thoughts of nearly all of the Independence supporting posters on the Margaret Ferrier subject. It seems we do have standards.

:aok::saltireflag

[weecounty hibby]

She needs to resign and I hope she does. It was a really stupid course if action to take and she has put peoples health bat risk. No whataboutery at all it should be a no brainer that she goes

[cabbageandribs1875]

Indeed. Praise for the swift handling of this.

I would imagine that she would be fully supportive of being hung out to dry.

Rather that then some pantomime in the Downing Street Rose Garden involving eye tests, castles and 200 mile car journeys.

I believe this decisive action will be seen in a positive light.

J


i'm starting to feel sorry for her in regards to her career, she's probably chucked it all away now, we will probably get the slimeball hypocritical tories calling for a public hanging

[marinello59]

i'm starting to feel sorry for her in regards to her career, she's probably chucked it all away now, we will probably get the slimeball hypocritical tories calling for a public hanging

On a human level I feel for her as well. She has behaved incredibly badly, that doesn't mean she is an incredibly bad person. Her reputation is in tatters and it looks like she is going to have to give up her job and income at the toughest of times as well as facing police action. I hope her and her family are left alone to deal with the consequences of this in private.

[Jack]

She needs to resign and I hope she does. It was a really stupid course if action to take and she has put peoples health bat risk. No whataboutery at all it should be a no brainer that she goes

In a way I hope she doesn't resign.

As it stands the worst any MP not meeting the standards their party, or us as the electorate expect from our representatives is to lose their party whip but is in no way even expected to resign. I think that's wrong and must be changed. The recall from the constituency is much too cumbersome.

So I think by her sitting tight in her seat it might be the nudge the situation needs to change the status quo.

[Smartie]

True, but undecideds may well remember this stuff when it comes to the next election and referendum. The episode overall likely to turn into a vote winner rather than vote loser for SNP imo.

It probably shouldn’t be ignored that clear, decisive and correct management of the Cummings situation would have given Johnson a huge boost in all sorts of ways early in his reign and early in his Covid crisis management.

Instead though...

[Bristolhibby]

It probably shouldn’t be ignored that clear, decisive and correct management of the Cummings situation would have given Johnson a huge boost in all sorts of ways early in his reign and early in his Covid crisis management.

Instead though...

The monkey never sacks the organ grinder.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

I see that Ferrier is deemed to have broken the guidelines for self isolation in Scotland but has broken the law in England.

This might get muddy, the test is carried out in Scotland but she was away from home when she got the results.

I have heard of other people, commonners if you like, who, when they got the positive result then used public transport and taxis to get home to isolate. Not sure if they were fined or sacked or given a rap on the knuckles.

[Hibs Class]

I see that Ferrier is deemed to have broken the guidelines for self isolation in Scotland but has broken the law in England.

This might get muddy, the test is carried out in Scotland but she was away from home when she got the results.

I have heard of other people, commonners if you like, who, when they got the positive result then used public transport and taxis to get home to isolate. Not sure if they were fined or sacked or given a rap on the knuckles.

I think I heard earlier that the English law only came into effect on Monday or Tuesday, so she will have been one of the first to break it.

[Future17]

I think I heard earlier that the English law only came into effect on Monday or Tuesday, so she will have been one of the first to break it.

If she ever visits York, they can shoot her with a bow and arrow...or something like that.

[Keith_M]

On a human level I feel for her as well. She has behaved incredibly badly, that doesn't mean she is an incredibly bad person. Her reputation is in tatters and it looks like she is going to have to give up her job and income at the toughest of times as well as facing police action. I hope her and her family are left alone to deal with the consequences of this in private.


:top marks

[Killiehibbie]

What was so important that she couldn't stay in her house until she got the test result? A test that she felt was necessary.

[Keith_M]

What was so important that she couldn't stay in her house until she got the test result? A test that she felt was necessary.


Apparently debating the approach to Coronavirus in Westminster.

Which is an amazing lack of self-awareness.

[Killiehibbie]

Apparently debating the approach to Coronavirus in Westminster.

Which is an amazing lack of self-awareness.

She should quietly close the door on the way out.

[lapsedhibee]

Apparently debating the approach to Coronavirus in Westminster.

Which is an amazing lack of self-awareness.

If only there was some sort of technology that could have allowed her to take part in the debate from home.

[Moulin Yarns]

If only there was some sort of technology that could have allowed her to take part in the debate from home.

I said that before. Westminster Parliament forced MPs to attend, while in Scotland the advice is to work from home if you can. Not excusing her actions but she was allocated a slot to speak and would lose it if she wasn't there.

[Berwickhibby]

If only there was some sort of technology that could have allowed her to take part in the debate from home.

If only she knew the laws and did not knowingly travel for hours on public transport whilst infected with Covid 19.

[lapsedhibee]

I said that before. Westminster Parliament forced MPs to attend, while in Scotland the advice is to work from home if you can. Not excusing her actions but she was allocated a slot to speak and would lose it if she wasn't there.

I hope you're not suggesting that A Senior Source insisted on people attending in person so that there would always be at least some people braying support behind Johnson, to give him a flicker of appearance of competence on TV clips? :tsk tsk:

[lapsedhibee]

If only she knew the laws and did not knowingly travel for hours on public transport whilst infected with Covid 19.
She probably didn't know the law in England, introduced that day I think, because even people who live there can't keep up with the changes every ten minutes and Johnson's explanation :faf: of them.

[Moulin Yarns]

I hope you're not suggesting that A Senior Source insisted on people attending in person so that there would always be at least some people braying support behind Johnson, to give him a flicker of appearance of competence on TV clips? :tsk tsk:

As if?

Aye, of course I am.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/06/02/uk-mps-to-vote-on-whether-it-s-safe-to-return-to-parliament

[Ozyhibby]

She probably didn't know the law in England, introduced that day I think, because even people who live there can't keep up with the changes every ten minutes and Johnson's explanation :faf: of them.

I don’t think any of the many changes in the law have ever allowed you to travel the length of the country following a positive test?
She is obviously a seriously stupid individual. The fact that she has not resigned yet means she is also a shameless individual. There can be no forgiveness now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sir David Gray]

She probably didn't know the law in England, introduced that day I think, because even people who live there can't keep up with the changes every ten minutes and Johnson's explanation :faf: of them.

We're hardly talking here about the complexities of whether or not you can meet people from other households in the pub or how many friends you can invite into your back garden.

It's been fairly obvious and simple to understand for the past 6 months that if you test positive for the virus, you don't leave the house under any circumstances for 2 weeks, let alone travel hundreds of miles on public transport. Ordinary members of the public shouldn't be confused by that very simple rule, never mind an MP.

There really isn't any way that her behaviour can be excused, it's about as serious a breach as you can make.

[Smartie]

I said that before. Westminster Parliament forced MPs to attend, while in Scotland the advice is to work from home if you can. Not excusing her actions but she was allocated a slot to speak and would lose it if she wasn't there.

I get the point you're trying to make but it is defending the indefensible really.

Making points in parliament is important for an MP, but not at the cost of taking journeys that might risk other people.

She has no excuse of any sort whatsoever.

[lapsedhibee]

If only she knew the laws and did not knowingly travel for hours on public transport whilst infected with Covid 19.


I don’t think any of the many changes in the law have ever allowed you to travel the length of the country following a positive test?
She is obviously a seriously stupid individual. The fact that she has not resigned yet means she is also a shameless individual. There can be no forgiveness now.



We're hardly talking here about the complexities of whether or not you can meet people from other households in the pub or how many friends you can invite into your back garden.

It's been fairly obvious and simple to understand for the past 6 months that if you test positive for the virus, you don't leave the house under any circumstances for 2 weeks, let alone travel hundreds of miles on public transport. Ordinary members of the public shouldn't be confused by that very simple rule, never mind an MP.

There really isn't any way that her behaviour can be excused, it's about as serious a breach as you can make.

I think the failure to self-isolate has only actually been against the law for a few days. That's the way the BBC is reporting her breach anyway. Nobody's claiming she wasn't being stupid or trying to excuse her.

[Killiehibbie]

I get the point you're trying to make but it is defending the indefensible really.

Making points in parliament is important for an MP, but not at the cost of taking journeys that might risk other people.

She has no excuse of any sort whatsoever.
She gambled on her test result being negative and the cost of losing should be her resignation.

[Sir David Gray]

I think the failure to self-isolate has only actually been against the law for a few days. That's the way the BBC is reporting her breach anyway. Nobody's claiming she wasn't being stupid or trying to excuse her.

I'm not saying it hasn't only just been made law. What I'm saying is that people have been expected to stay at home for 2 weeks on the back of a positive test for over 6 months now.

An MP of all people shouldn't be waiting for a law to be introduced before they comply with such guidance/rules and the fact that the Prime Minister didn't know the rules on household gatherings in a certain area of England that was under a local lockdown (which is embarrassing by the way) is irrelevant in this particular case.

[lapsedhibee]

I'm not saying it hasn't only just been made law. What I'm saying is that people have been expected to stay at home for 2 weeks on the back of a positive test for over 6 months now.
I know.


An MP of all people shouldn't be waiting for a law to be introduced before they comply with such guidance/rules and the fact that the Prime Minister didn't know the rules on household gatherings in a certain area of England that was under a local lockdown (which is embarrassing by the way) is irrelevant in this particular case.
Maybe. There is a school of thought which links the PM, and Johnson, with a widespread failure to observe rules.

[jonty]

An employer that expects employees to travel hundreds of miles to debate or risk losing their opportunity is asking for these incidents. She wont be the last.
They need to bring back remote debates and meetings. its a nonsense in this day and age that it isn't used regularly anyway, let alone during this crisis.

As for Ferrier, travelling while waiting results to work is stupid but she wont be alone
Travelling home while confirmed positive is even more stupid. We don't know what the alternatives were as she didn't seek guidance.

She's apologised and knows she's done wrong (more than most, Cummings). She's a brass neck for not resigning now. she should go. she should be doing community work. she should be humble and helping those who need help. (i dont follow her so no idea if she's doing any of those or would even consider it)

However - when she does, what happens in the constituency? they cant campaign. does it leave them without representation for months until they can vote?

What's the most sensible/practical option in the circumstance? Appoint second place until the next election? does she have a deputy who can stand in? (its been a long time since dull politics classes in high school and I expect some things have changed)

[lapsedhibee]

However - when she does, what happens in the constituency? they cant campaign. does it leave them without representation for months until they can vote?

What's the most sensible/practical option in the circumstance? Appoint second place until the next election? does she have a deputy who can stand in? (its been a long time since dull politics classes in high school and I expect some things have changed)

Why can't they campaign? :dunno:

[jonty]

Why can't they campaign? :dunno:
Is it safe to do so - door to door I guess is what i was thinking.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is it safe to do so - door to door I guess is what i was thinking.

So long as you soak the leaflets in hand sanitiser 😁

[jonty]

So long as you soak the leaflets in hand sanitiser ��

And they wear masks while sending out the faithful on their behalf.

Its not like I need a reason to ignore the door though, so thats a relief :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

And they wear masks while sending out the faithful on their behalf.

Its not like I need a reason to ignore the door though, so thats a relief :greengrin

There will come a time when we all welcome the jehovah witness visit on a Sunday afternoon 🤔

[Callum_62]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sturgeon-s-ruthless-dumping-of-margaret-ferrier-is-no-surprise?fbclid=IwAR0i2wILzVwuQLxM2iieP94yCIYGLjVt AewDnmz9aD31hEE8UWeLSknpoQI

"Ruthless"

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sturgeon-s-ruthless-dumping-of-margaret-ferrier-is-no-surprise?fbclid=IwAR0i2wILzVwuQLxM2iieP94yCIYGLjVt AewDnmz9aD31hEE8UWeLSknpoQI



**** that's bad, even by Spectator standards.

[G B Young]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sturgeon-s-ruthless-dumping-of-margaret-ferrier-is-no-surprise?fbclid=IwAR0i2wILzVwuQLxM2iieP94yCIYGLjVt AewDnmz9aD31hEE8UWeLSknpoQI

"Ruthless"

With no news of Ferrier's resignation, could she really be trying to brazen things out?

[Ozyhibby]

**** that's bad, even by Spectator standards.

There are some good unionist writers out there but Daisley isn’t one of them. With him it’s a hatred that totally consumes him since he had to leave his STV job for being biased.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

With no news of Ferrier's resignation, could she really be trying to brazen things out?

She might. Mark Macdonald and Derek Mackay are still MSPs. I very much doubt it though.

[degenerated]

I don’t think any of the many changes in the law have ever allowed you to travel the length of the country following a positive test?
She is obviously a seriously stupid individual. The fact that she has not resigned yet means she is also a shameless individual. There can be no forgiveness now.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkShe is indeed stupid however I think that is actually the case that she didn't break the law in Scotland but did in England on the day it came into force.

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

**** that's bad, even by Spectator standards.Stephen Daisley is a particularly bitter person

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

[lucky]

I think she trying to ride this out but after the speakers comments I’d imagine she will be suspended from parliament for more than 10 days which means a recall petition can be in acted. She’ll then be forced out and an a by election will be held. But god knows when due to COVID-19. Once your party leader calls you and tells you to resign there is no way back. None of this is damaging the SNP if anything Nicola Sturgeon looks stronger because of the way she’s handled it.

[Future17]

I think she trying to ride this out but after the speakers comments I’d imagine she will be suspended from parliament for more than 10 days which means a recall petition can be in acted. She’ll then be forced out and an a by election will be held. But god knows when due to COVID-19. Once your party leader calls you and tells you to resign there is no way back. None of this is damaging the SNP if anything Nicola Sturgeon looks stronger because of the way she’s handled it.

Sturgeon piling on the pressure by "accidentally" referring to Margaret Ferrier as "Margaret Covid"...twice. :greengrin

[G B Young]

She might. Mark Macdonald and Derek Mackay are still MSPs. I very much doubt it though.

I'd forgotten about both. Maybe she hopes folk will just forget about her too as it does appear she's going to try and tough this out.

[cabbageandribs1875]

the DR reporting margaret ferrier attended/spoke at mass the day before travelling down to westminster, i wonder why she's riding this out, will she lose out on money if she resigns before getting a recall ?

[Smartie]

the DR reporting margaret ferrier attended/spoke at mass the day before travelling down to westminster, i wonder why she's riding this out, will she lose out on money if she resigns before getting a recall ?

For all resigning is 100% the right thing to do, is there simply a pragmatic side to someone not wanting to give up a well paid job to be unemployed if technically they don't have to?

[Ozyhibby]

For all resigning is 100% the right thing to do, is there simply a pragmatic side to someone not wanting to give up a well paid job to be unemployed if technically they don't have to?

That’s pretty much it. She earns about £80k a year as an mp plus generous expenses. She does not appear to have the intellect to match that salary in the private sector.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

The National: SNP have thrown Margaret Ferrier out to the wolves, says Kevin McKenna

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18774952.snp-thrown-margaret-ferrier-wolves/

[RitchieHibs]

The National: SNP have thrown Margaret Ferrier out to the wolves, says Kevin McKenna

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18774952.snp-thrown-margaret-ferrier-wolves/

He's correct in his analysis of the opposition and their leaders but I cannot agree with him otherwise.

Both Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford were spot on as to their reactions against Margaret Ferrier's idiotic actions.

The Snp acted decisively and rightful in their criticism. Margaret Ferrier should have resigned immediately.

Why would Kevin McKenna write such nonsense regarding Margaret Ferrier?

[G B Young]

He's correct in his analysis of the opposition and their leaders but I cannot agree with him otherwise.

Both Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford were spot on as to their reactions against Margaret Ferrier's idiotic actions.

The Snp acted decisively and rightful in their criticism. Margaret Ferrier should have resigned immediately.

Why would Kevin McKenna write such nonsense regarding Margaret Ferrier?

Maybe he knows her? Or he could just be putting a controversial viewpoint out there.

I was quite surprised the National ran with it.

[lapsedhibee]

Heard John Swinney being interviewed by Evan Davies on R4 PM yesterday. Find it very difficult to judge whether he's brilliant/competent/incompetent/a complete nincompoop because of the way he speaks. It's as if he's been programmed by an algorithm or at best someone whose first language isn't English. Speech doesn't flow naturally at all. Find it very odd. Just me? :dunno:

[RitchieHibs]

Maybe he knows her? Or he could just be putting a controversial viewpoint out there.

I was quite surprised the National ran with it.

Not one that many would agree with I would suspect.

It is possible he was attempting creating unwelcome division at the top of the party. For what reason though?

Is there life after Nicola Sturgeon? She's proved to be an exceptional leader and is known across the world.

The Snp would struggle to fill the cavernous void she would leave behind.

It would be a monumental mistake to oust Nicola. No doubt about that.

Maybe I read too much into his piece?

[Beefster]

Not one that many would agree with I would suspect.

It is possible he was attempting creating unwelcome division at the top of the party. For what reason though?

Is there life after Nicola Sturgeon? She's proved to be an exceptional leader and is known across the world.

The Snp would struggle to fill the cavernous void she would leave behind.

It would be a monumental mistake to oust Nicola. No doubt about that.

Maybe I read too much into his piece?

Maybe it’s just his opinion?

[RitchieHibs]

Maybe it’s just his opinion?

It very well could be just that :aok:

Journalists normally have an angle they're trying to put across.

Possibly not in this case and I was indeed reading too much into it.

They'd be nuts to try to oust Nicola who has been utterly fantastic and could very well be the one who oversees Independence. :aok:

[G B Young]

Heard John Swinney being interviewed by Evan Davies on R4 PM yesterday. Find it very difficult to judge whether he's brilliant/competent/incompetent/a complete nincompoop because of the way he speaks. It's as if he's been programmed by an algorithm or at best someone whose first language isn't English. Speech doesn't flow naturally at all. Find it very odd. Just me? :dunno:

It's not just the way he speaks. It's his entire demeanor. He looks beaten down to the point of keeling over. I'd say both he and Sturgeon would benefit from a break.

[G B Young]

Not one that many would agree with I would suspect.

It is possible he was attempting creating unwelcome division at the top of the party. For what reason though?

Is there life after Nicola Sturgeon? She's proved to be an exceptional leader and is known across the world.

The Snp would struggle to fill the cavernous void she would leave behind.

It would be a monumental mistake to oust Nicola. No doubt about that.

Maybe I read too much into his piece?

I've never bought a copy, but is that the sort of thing the National would countenance? I was surprised they printed this piece in the first place.

[One Day Soon]

the DR reporting margaret ferrier attended/spoke at mass the day before travelling down to westminster, i wonder why she's riding this out, will she lose out on money if she resigns before getting a recall ?

Another three years of MP's salary (that's about £240,000), three years of expenses though they are nowhere near as big a money spinner as they used to be, three years of very generous pension contributions (in her case creating an annual pension worth about £10,000 a year in three years time) and at the end of it a lump sum for ceasing to be an MP which in her case would be about £26,500 at the next election..

I'd put that, conservatively, at just short of £300,000 worth of reasons not to resign and then a further £10,000 worth of recurring annual reasons in the form of the pension.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's not just the way he speaks. It's his entire demeanor. He looks beaten down to the point of keeling over. I'd say both he and Sturgeon would benefit from a break.

Can't believe we agree on something :wink:

[G B Young]

Can't believe we agree on something :wink:

:greengrin

Yep, I don't tend to watch many of the live updates but I caught both Sturgeon and Swinney over the last couple of days and thought jeez, that pair look done in.

[G B Young]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkAFfeBWAAU2Fkk?format=jpg&name=900x900

Covid made her 'act out of character' apparently. Sounds legit.

Perhaps the payment from the Sun for her story will help to ease her recovery.

[Since90+2]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkAFfeBWAAU2Fkk?format=jpg&name=900x900

Covid made her 'act out of character' apparently. Sounds legit.

Perhaps the payment from the Sun for her story will help to ease her recovery.

I said earlier on in this thread I wouldn't be surprised if she tried to stick it out. She's on a job paying £82,000 a year and probably needs that to support her family, she'd probably struggle to find any employment let alone something in that salary after this scandal.

I think she should have resigned as what she done was dangerous and sets a terrible example but then I'm not in her shoes with potentially needing to feed a family and pay the mortgage. It's wrong but I can understand it.

[Hibrandenburg]

I said earlier on in this thread I wouldn't be surprised if she tried to stick it out. She's on a job paying £82,000 a year and probably needs that to support her family, she'd probably struggle to find any employment let alone something in that salary after this scandal.

I think she should have resigned as what she done was dangerous and sets a terrible example but then I'm not in her shoes with potentially needing to feed a family and pay the mortgage. It's wrong but I can understand it.

Every day she stays in her post she is damaging the cause for Independence. She might have had the whip removed but she was elected on the basis she was standing for the SNP. I think the SNP have done everything correctly here but as long as she stays in her post as an MP, she will draw fire in the direction of the SNP.

[Berwickhibby]

It was obvious that she was never going to resign.... the Westminster gravy train is far to lucrative

[DH1875]

It was obvious that she was never going to resign.... the Westminster gravy train is far to lucrative

What's happening with the police and her. Will they/can they take it further or is that done with.

[Since90+2]

Every day she stays in her post she is damaging the cause for Independence. She might have had the whip removed but she was elected on the basis she was standing for the SNP. I think the SNP have done everything correctly here but as long as she stays in her post as an MP, she will draw fire in the direction of the SNP.

I don't think it's impacts independence at all to be honest. People are wise enough to see the SNP have done all they can and she will likely soon be kicked out the party.

The only thing this will impact in a negative light going forward is Margaret Ferrier's reputation.

[degenerated]

What's happening with the police and her. Will they/can they take it further or is that done with.I doubt they can now, didn't they say they couldn't act retrospectively when it came to the England players flouting laws therefore that would extend to everybody i think.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think it's impacts independence at all to be honest. People are wise enough to see the SNP have done all they can and she will likely soon be kicked out the party.

The only thing this will impact in a negative light going forward is Margaret Ferrier's reputation.

Disagree, it gives the MSM a stick to beat the SNP with and front page headlines like we're now seeing, it makes it more difficult to persuade the undecided to cross the divide.

[Since90+2]

Disagree, it gives the MSM a stick to beat the SNP with and front page headlines like we're now seeing, it makes it more difficult to persuade the undecided to cross the divide.

I honestly don't get that impression. I don't see a correlation between what Margaret Ferrier has done and the case for or against Scottish Independence.

If we had a referendum tomorrow I'm almost certain Yes would win and I think Westminster know that which is why they won't grant permission for one next year.

[DH1875]

I doubt they can now, didn't they say they couldn't act retrospectively when it came to the England players flouting laws therefore that would extend to everybody i think.

Did any of them actually have covid though? This woman travelled knowing full well she had it.

[Hibs Class]

What's happening with the police and her. Will they/can they take it further or is that done with.

Last I was aware the English police were investigating as the law changed the day before she travelled home so she may be liable to be charged

[G B Young]

I honestly don't get that impression. I don't see a correlation between what Margaret Ferrier has done and the case for or against Scottish Independence.

If we had a referendum tomorrow I'm almost certain Yes would win and I think Westminster know that which is why they won't grant permission for one next year.

If it's the case that this sort of issue has no impact on people's voting intentions, could it be argued that it doesn't really have any direct impact on their behaviour during a pandemic? eg the Dominic Cummings story (which is increasingly looking like a minor infraction in comparison to the Ferrier saga) was often cited as a reason for folk not adhering to lockdown measures (ie if a government employee/politician isn't following the rules why should I?). Is that really the case though? Or was it more of a convenient excuse for some, while the majority continued to use their own common sense and stick by the guidance irrespective of the headlines around Cummings (and indeed others like Caldwerwood etc)? If Ferrier doesn't quit will it significantly impact on Sturgeon's authority or will most of us just move on and gradually forget about it? A lot of questions there, but I'm just throwing them out there as I'm no longer really sure of the answers.

[lucky]

Anyone who claims to represent the people of Scotland and chooses to take Murdoch’s piece of silver is more out of touch than anyone who has ever contracted Covid 19. The woman is a disgrace and has actually made her situation worse by selling her sorry tale to the Sun.

[Bristolhibby]

If it's the case that this sort of issue has no impact on people's voting intentions, could it be argued that it doesn't really have any direct impact on their behaviour during a pandemic? eg the Dominic Cummings story (which is increasingly looking like a minor infraction in comparison to the Ferrier saga) was often cited as a reason for folk not adhering to lockdown measures (ie if a government employee/politician isn't following the rules why should I?). Is that really the case though? Or was it more of a convenient excuse for some, while the majority continued to use their own common sense and stick by the guidance irrespective of the headlines around Cummings (and indeed others like Caldwerwood etc)? If Ferrier doesn't quit will it significantly impact on Sturgeon's authority or will most of us just move on and gradually forget about it? A lot of questions there, but I'm just throwing them out there as I'm no longer really sure of the answers.

I think move on TBH.

Works exceedingly well for the Tories, (I know, a terrible baseline). Brass it out works nowadays.

J

[Future17]

A bit of a segue, but worth reading - 48 hours in the life of a legal aid defence solicitor:

https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/robert-more-48-hours-in-the-life-of-a-defence-solicitor

[lapsedhibee]

A bit of a segue, but worth reading - 48 hours in the life of a legal aid defence solicitor:

https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/robert-more-48-hours-in-the-life-of-a-defence-solicitor

:violin:

[Future17]

:violin:

?

[lapsedhibee]

?
It's modern slavery so it is, having to be a lawyer under the SNP government.

[Future17]

It's modern slavery so it is, having to be a lawyer under the SNP government.

Erm, ok. I'm not sure who mentioned "modern slavery" but is there perhaps a bigger picture you're missing here?

[lapsedhibee]

Erm, ok. I'm not sure who mentioned "modern slavery" but is there perhaps a bigger picture you're missing here?

Possibly. What I read was a very long winded plea for defence lawyers to be paid more. I was left hoping beyond hope that the author has a family member who might help him make the rent during these difficult times. What did I miss? :dunno:

[lucky]

:violin:

The salary of a solicitor doing defence work is £25-£30k a year. Most young solicitors don’t go near criminal work due to the hours and pay. Without a properly funded criminal defence network it will be the working classes who suffer most as unfortunately poverty is a main driver in crime. Without skilful talented people then more people will end up with with criminal convictions and possibly more in jail. This leads to greater issues with employability which leads to more poverty which leads to more crime. Hope you see the circle here.

[Future17]

Possibly. What I read was a very long winded plea for defence lawyers to be paid more. I was left hoping beyond hope that the author has a family member who might help him make the rent during these difficult times. What did I miss? :dunno:

If you were accused of a crime, would you like to be represented by a solicitor who's exhausted because they've barely slept for the past 48 hours?

[danhibees1875]

Erm, ok. I'm not sure who mentioned "modern slavery" but is there perhaps a bigger picture you're missing here?

I think the problem with these sort of things is they're a little bit too niche for anyone to find relatable.

I've no way of knowing if his situation is applicable across the industry and if these 2 days aren't outliers which make it seem worse (I could have painted similarly hectic scenes at previous jobs of mine and I'm sure others could too).

I've no problem believing there is probably a general point in there that bureaucracy has played a part in making his job harder and less financially rewarding than it could/should be. It's a shame if that translates into making it harder to attract talent to a critical profession over time. I've no idea where to start with what the answer is to that and it's not something he decided to explore either - instead choosing to just have a wee rant really.

[lapsedhibee]

The salary of a solicitor doing defence work is £25-£30k a year. Most young solicitors don’t go near criminal work due to the hours and pay. Without a properly funded criminal defence network it will be the working classes who suffer most as unfortunately poverty is a main driver in crime. Without skilful talented people then more people will end up with with criminal convictions and possibly more in jail. This leads to greater issues with employability which leads to more poverty which leads to more crime. Hope you see the circle here.

"I recently interviewed some outstanding candidates for a traineeship with my firm. That young people continue to want to enter this most critical public service can only be commended."

[lapsedhibee]

If you were accused of a crime, would you like to be represented by a solicitor who's exhausted because they've barely slept for the past 48 hours?

Ideally no. This particular solicitor seems to find driving to Glasgow AND Kirkcaldy IN THE SAME DAY OMG exhausting.

[marinello59]

I think move on TBH.

Works exceedingly well for the Tories, (I know, a terrible baseline). Brass it out works nowadays.

J

It might if this incident was the only problem. The Salmond story and it's multiple strands has still got a long way to go. Derek Mackay provided a reminder last week that he is still hanging about to claim his expenses and unlike Ferrier he received counselling paid for by the party rather than concerted calls for his dismissal. Mark Macdonald has spent virtually a whole term at Holyrood claiming his wage since his fall from grace with the SNP simply pretending he doesn't exist anymore. The re-trial of Natalie McGarry (who I feel a great deal of sympathy for) will only add further to the drip drip drip narrative that there is something rotten about the party. It won't affect them in the short term, the election of Neale Hanvey despite his anti-Semitic comments showed how forgiving SNP voters and activists can be when it comes to the over riding goal of Independence. However in the longer term, unless the trend is reversed they will face the same fate as the sleaze plagued Tories under Major.

[Ozyhibby]

It might if this incident was the only problem. The Salmond story and it's multiple strands has still got a long way to go. Derek Mackay provided a reminder last week that he is still hanging about to claim his expenses and unlike Ferrier he received counselling paid for by the party rather than concerted calls for his dismissal. Mark Macdonald has spent virtually a whole term at Holyrood claiming his wage since his fall from grace with the SNP simply pretending he doesn't exist anymore. The re-trial of Natalie McGarry (who I feel a great deal of sympathy for) will only add further to the drip drip drip narrative that there is something rotten about the party. It won't affect them in the short term, the election of Neale Hanvey despite his anti-Semitic comments showed how forgiving SNP voters and activists can be when it comes to the over riding goal of Independence. However in the longer term, unless the trend is reversed they will face the same fate as the sleaze plagued Tories under Major.

Every single case you mention there, the SNP cut them loose the minute there is a whiff of wrong doing. No if’s, no buts, no maybes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Future17]

Ideally no. This particular solicitor seems to find driving to Glasgow AND Kirkcaldy IN THE SAME DAY OMG exhausting.

Driving for around four and a half hours, including in and out of Edinburgh and Glasgow City Centres? I'd probably find that quite tiring. I think the exhaustion felt was probably a lot to do with being woken at 1am and being awake for a further three hours...I'm guessing you missed that bit though as the article was so "long-winded". :rolleyes:

[lapsedhibee]

Driving for around four and a half hours, including in and out of Edinburgh and Glasgow City Centres? I'd probably find that quite tiring. I think the exhaustion felt was probably a lot to do with being woken at 1am and being awake for a further three hours...I'm guessing you missed that bit though as the article was so "long-winded". :rolleyes:

If only he had had a family member who could have warned him how tough it was going to be as a criminal defence lawyer.

[Future17]

If only he had had a family member who could have warned him how tough it was going to be as a criminal defence lawyer.

He's been a solicitor since 2007 and the earliest of the specific changes he mentions occurred in 2011, so I doubt that would have helped unless the family member in question was a clairvoyant.

[Beefster]

He's been a solicitor since 2007 and the earliest of the specific changes he mentions occurred in 2011, so I doubt that would have helped unless the family member in question was a clairvoyant.

I think you’re missing the point tbh. Someone has directly criticised the SNP Government in a way that can’t be batted away with something about ‘all the levers’. I think that, rather than counter his points, the generally accepted counter-strategy is to make out that he’s being a whiny melodramatic dick who, because he’s not on minimum wage, should just suck up all the stuff that he’s unhappy with.

[lapsedhibee]

I think you’re missing the point tbh. Someone has directly criticised the SNP Government in a way that can’t be batted away with something about ‘all the levers’. I think that, rather than counter his points, the generally accepted counter-strategy is to make out that he’s being a whiny melodramatic dick who, because he’s not on minimum wage, should just suck up all the stuff that he’s unhappy with.

He may well have a good argument, but he's definitely being a whiny brat. And I don't believe for a minute that he personally earns £25-30k, nor that the junior members of his staff put in the same hours that he, running a small business, does.

[Smartie]

The last couple of decades have definitely been tougher for the professions and the educated middle class.

These are groups who are unlikely to enjoy great sympathy from the general public - until they find they can’t access legal aid when they need it, or get an appointment to see a doctor or a dentist.

We shouldn’t dismiss concerns being raised in articles like this out of hand. One minute you’re dismissing the first world problems of a whiny swot, the next you’re looking at undeserved jail time and wondered what happened.

[One Day Soon]

He may well have a good argument, but he's definitely being a whiny brat. And I don't believe for a minute that he personally earns £25-30k, nor that the junior members of his staff put in the same hours that he, running a small business, does.


In a society which is becoming increasingly paternalistic, where Brexit is likely to result in lower legal safeguards rather than higher, where liberties are being curtailed by both governments, where initiatives such as the 'named person scheme' - rightly or wrongly - are symbolic of an increased willingness to have the state intervene and in the context of a global pandemic which will ultimately see services, entitlements and safety nets reduced for financial reasons I find it staggering that we have become so comfortable with the notion that legal representation on the cheap is a good idea.

I am not a lawyer, I have no direct skin in this game. I do know that lawyers as with many other professions will go where the money is. If that means that criminal representation is impoverished because of the relative value of corporate and other law to criminal law then we're becoming a less civilised society.

All the brave talk of an independent Scotland free to make its own decisions on everything rings pretty bloody hollow if right out of the starting blocks we won't even ensure a proper balance between the rights of the individual and the role of the state. Proper legal representation, not simply a half-awake punch drunk man or woman in a suit, is a basic right.

[Ozyhibby]

In a society which is becoming increasingly paternalistic, where Brexit is likely to result in lower legal safeguards rather than higher, where liberties are being curtailed by both governments, where initiatives such as the 'named person scheme' - rightly or wrongly - are symbolic of an increased willingness to have the state intervene and in the context of a global pandemic which will ultimately see services, entitlements and safety nets reduced for financial reasons I find it staggering that we have become so comfortable with the notion that legal representation on the cheap is a good idea.

I am not a lawyer, I have no direct skin in this game. I do know that lawyers as with many other professions will go where the money is. If that means that criminal representation is impoverished because of the relative value of corporate and other law to criminal law then we're becoming a less civilised society.

All the brave talk of an independent Scotland free to make its own decisions on everything rings pretty bloody hollow if right out of the starting blocks we won't even ensure a proper balance between the rights of the individual and the role of the state. Proper legal representation, not simply a half-awake punch drunk man or woman in a suit, is a basic right.

All these things are happening within the union. Not sure why a future independent Scotland is at fault here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

All these things are happening within the union. Not sure why a future independent Scotland is at fault here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because the people telling us all will be well with independence are the same people who are doing this to our legal system. If they can't provide as basic a human right as this properly (and it is entirely their responsibility and under their control) I'm disinclined to believe them on the much bigger picture stuff.

[G B Young]

Anyone who claims to represent the people of Scotland and chooses to take Murdoch’s piece of silver is more out of touch than anyone who has ever contracted Covid 19. The woman is a disgrace and has actually made her situation worse by selling her sorry tale to the Sun.

Her interview with the Record today is all over the place. I'm not sure I even understand what it is she's trying to say, but she doesn't actually seem to comprehend why what she did provoked such a reaction:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/coronavirus-mp-margaret-ferrier-says-22829982

[marinello59]

Her interview with the Record today is all over the place. I'm not sure I even understand what it is she's trying to say, but she doesn't actually seem to comprehend why what she did provoked such a reaction:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/coronavirus-mp-margaret-ferrier-says-22829982

It’s a mess. I was wondering where the suggestion that she would have the whip returned at a later date for co-operating had come from. (Sturgeon was asked about that today.)

[Smartie]

Her interview with the Record today is all over the place. I'm not sure I even understand what it is she's trying to say, but she doesn't actually seem to comprehend why what she did provoked such a reaction:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/coronavirus-mp-margaret-ferrier-says-22829982

What screams out to me about the whole affair is that she’s not very bright.

[G B Young]

What screams out to me about the whole affair is that she’s not very bright.

She's certainly coming across that way.

[Killiehibbie]

She's certainly coming across that way.

She's actually very intelligent.

It's just the Covid Effect making her act out of character and come across as extremely stupid:wink:

[marinello59]

Because the people telling us all will be well with independence are the same people who are doing this to our legal system. If they can't provide as basic a human right as this properly (and it is entirely their responsibility and under their control) I'm disinclined to believe them on the much bigger picture stuff.

The rush to remove the right to trial by Jury for up to 18 months back in April tells us a lot. Thankfully wiser voices prevailed.

[7 Up]

Any sympathy I felt for Margaret Ferrier has more or less evaporated after her newspaper interviews. She should go.

[matty_f]

Any sympathy I felt for Margaret Ferrier has more or less evaporated after her newspaper interviews. She should go.

100% she should go, it's a disgrace that she's brass-necking it.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Clare Haughey(msp) who has campaigned both for and with margaret ferrier sounds quite angry with her for not resigning.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1316315667696685056?s=21


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1316315667696685056?s=21


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What was it, the tweet has been deleted.

[G B Young]

100% she should go, it's a disgrace that she's brass-necking it.

No further action from the Met:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54546058

I guess there's now nothing stopping her just sitting it out for the next four years as an MP, with her income having also received a tidy boost thanks to the tabloid interviews. She may feel it's all worked out quite well for her.

[Radium]

No further action from the Met:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54546058

I guess there's now nothing stopping her just sitting it out for the next four years as an MP, with her income having also received a tidy boost thanks to the tabloid interviews. She may feel it's all worked out quite well for her.

It is a narrow point but the decision was that she did not breach the statute that came into force shortly after. The outcome being that there was no competent action that could be taken rather than a decision not to act.

She should resign irrespective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Since90+2]

No further action from the Met:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54546058

I guess there's now nothing stopping her just sitting it out for the next four years as an MP, with her income having also received a tidy boost thanks to the tabloid interviews. She may feel it's all worked out quite well for her.

If 10% of her constituent's sign a petition then a by election will be called. She would have to sit as an Independent and would lose heavily ( I don't think she would even stand to be honest).

[marinello59]

If 10% of her constituent's sign a petition then a by election will be called. She would have to sit as an Independent and would lose heavily ( I don't think she would even stand to be honest).

She has to be suspended from Parliament first for ten sitting days or 14 calendar days. If that doesn’t happen there can be no recall petition.

[matty_f]

You have to hope then, if she's going to brass neck it, that her constituents kick her out at the first available opportunity. Absolutely shameless.

[lapsedhibee]

She has to be suspended from Parliament first for ten sitting days or 14 calendar days. If that doesn’t happen there can be no recall petition.

Hope that's not solely up to The Speaker, is it? Not sure he's up to it.

[G B Young]

She has to be suspended from Parliament first for ten sitting days or 14 calendar days. If that doesn’t happen there can be no recall petition.

She took part in a Commons vote the other day, so there doesn't seem to be any sign of her being suspended:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54525094

At this rate of progress, I'd imagine it would likely be into the new year by the time she would have to deal with a petition by her constituents, by which time many of them may just have let it blow over.

[marinello59]

She took part in a Commons vote the other day, so there doesn't seem to be any sign of her being suspended:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54525094

The commons standards committee are still investigating. I would guess they were waiting for the Police to finish theirs before coming to a decision.

[Moulin Yarns]

She took part in a Commons vote the other day, so there doesn't seem to be any sign of her being suspended:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54525094

At this rate of progress, I'd imagine it would likely be into the new year by the time she would have to deal with a petition by her constituents, by which time many of them may just have let it blow over.

She didn't take part in a commons vote, she had someone vote as a proxy for her.

[marinello59]

She didn't take part in a commons vote, she had someone vote as a proxy for her.

So she took part in the vote then. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

So she took part in the vote then. :greengrin

Just not in person :greengrin

[Hibs Class]

It is a narrow point but the decision was that she did not breach the statute that came into force shortly after. The outcome being that there was no competent action that could be taken rather than a decision not to act.

She should resign irrespective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't agree with their reasoning. If I understand the timings she was tested before the law came into effect but she travelled after the law came into effect knowing she had received a positive result. It's almost Cummings-esque in its perversity.

[Berwickhibby]

Don't agree with their reasoning. If I understand the timings she was tested before the law came into effect but she travelled after the law came into effect knowing she had received a positive result. It's almost Cummings-esque in its perversity.

Well this sets a precedent....between Cummings and Ferrier not being punished for knowingly traveling with Covid 19 ...neither having the decency to resign .... now we have a free for all to ignore restrictions as MPs and political aides seem able to ignore them.

[G B Young]

The commons standards committee are still investigating. I would guess they were waiting for the Police to finish theirs before coming to a decision.

Ah, OK that might well be the case.

[G B Young]

Don't agree with their reasoning. If I understand the timings she was tested before the law came into effect but she travelled after the law came into effect knowing she had received a positive result. It's almost Cummings-esque in its perversity.

That's the bit that I think really takes her behaviour on to a different level from any of the previous controversies involving Cummings, Calderwood and the various other political figures/scientists who've ended up on the front pages.

As an aside, did Cummings ever actually take a Covid test?

[Since90+2]

Well this sets a precedent....between Cummings and Ferrier not being punished for knowingly traveling with Covid 19 ...neither having the decency to resign .... now we have a free for all to ignore restrictions as MPs and political aides seem able to ignore them.

With the caveat here that only one person out of Cummings and Ferrier could be sacked and that person's boss made a decision not to do so.

[danhibees1875]

Well this sets a precedent....between Cummings and Ferrier not being punished for knowingly traveling with Covid 19 ...neither having the decency to resign .... now we have a free for all to ignore restrictions as MPs and political aides seem able to ignore them.

I never got that argument during the Calderwood and Cummings shenanigans. Surely most adults would make up their own minds on the decisions they take and not cry "aye, but they did it!". Anyone who tries to use that as an excuse was always going to break the rules, they just don't want to hold their hands up and admit it was of their own making for whatever reason.

I think I'm more lenient than 99% of people with these things, what she did was stupid and reckless but I hate to see people losing their jobs over mistakes. There is probably an argument that politicians should be held to a higher standard and I think what she done was worse than the other scandals, but I can't help but feel a bit sorry for her whenever I read the story.

[Berwickhibby]

With the caveat here that only one person out of Cummings and Ferrier could be sacked and that person's made a decision not to do so.

Hence my comment "decency to resign" both are **** in my book

[Berwickhibby]

I never got that argument during the Calderwood and Cummings shenanigans. Surely most adults would make up their own minds on the decisions they take and not cry "aye, but they did it!". Anyone who tries to use that as an excuse was always going to break the rules, they just don't want to hold their hands up and admit it was of their own making for whatever reason.

I think I'm more lenient than 99% of people with these things, what she did was stupid and reckless but I hate to see people losing their jobs over mistakes. There is probably an argument that politicians should be held to a higher standard and I think what she done was worse than the other scandals, but I can't help but feel a bit sorry for her whenever I read the story.

Would you feel a bit sorry for her had she been a Tory MP?

[marinello59]

That's the bit that I think really takes her behaviour on to a different level from any of the previous controversies involving Cummings, Calderwood and the various other political figures/scientists who've ended up on the front pages.

As an aside, did Cummings ever actually take a Covid test?

I think we were still at the stage then of demanding to know why powerful figures were getting covid tests ahead of the rest of us. So probably not and if he had we would have complained about that as well. :greengrin

[danhibees1875]

Would you feel a bit sorry for her had she been a Tory MP?

No, at that point I'd be filled with a rage equal to the white hot intensity of a thousand suns.

[Smartie]

I never got that argument during the Calderwood and Cummings shenanigans. Surely most adults would make up their own minds on the decisions they take and not cry "aye, but they did it!". Anyone who tries to use that as an excuse was always going to break the rules, they just don't want to hold their hands up and admit it was of their own making for whatever reason.

I think I'm more lenient than 99% of people with these things, what she did was stupid and reckless but I hate to see people losing their jobs over mistakes. There is probably an argument that politicians should be held to a higher standard and I think what she done was worse than the other scandals, but I can't help but feel a bit sorry for her whenever I read the story.

I think that it's very dangerous to have a political class who are above the law when everyone else is expected to obey the law.

A lot of the "why can we do this but not this" stuff gets on my nerves, but when we are allowing the likes of Ferrier and Cummings to behave as they like and get away with it, it sets a terrible example and I think people are justified to not just make the point, but lower their own behavioural standards.

It's a scandal, and tbh the acceptance of double standards like this is the sort of thing that should be getting people out onto the streets in angry protest.

It's not a political issue. It's a "them and us" issue. They get to do what they want, we don't, and that's not healthy.

[Ozyhibby]

I feel no sympathy at all for her. She needs to go ASAP. Having people as stupid as her in Parliament is not good for any country.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[danhibees1875]

I think that it's very dangerous to have a political class who are above the law when everyone else is expected to obey the law.

A lot of the "why can we do this but not this" stuff gets on my nerves, but when we are allowing the likes of Ferrier and Cummings to behave as they like and get away with it, it sets a terrible example and I think people are justified to not just make the point, but lower their own behavioural standards.

It's a scandal, and tbh the acceptance of double standards like this is the sort of thing that should be getting people out onto the streets in angry protest.

It's not a political issue. It's a "them and us" issue. They get to do what they want, we don't, and that's not healthy.

I think it's a bit much to say that they're above the law. If anything they, and footballers etc, are much more likely to be caught doing things they shouldn't than the average person. I don't think I'd lose my job for breaking Covid guidance and I'd not be wanting anyone else of any ilk to, even politicians.

[Smartie]

I think it's a bit much to say that they're above the law. If anything they, and footballers etc, are much more likely to be caught doing things they shouldn't than the average person. I don't think I'd lose my job for breaking Covid guidance and I'd not be wanting anyone else of any ilk to, even politicians.

That's one of the many reasons why they shouldn't "do the crime" in the first place.

Some folk have to accept that their misbehaviour carries a higher penalty than other people and right now, politicians come under that description.

Ferrier's actions probably won't carry that heavy a penalty by way of the public being influenced by them mainly because our expectations have been lowered so much by the misbehaviour of various other cretins over this year.

We elect them, and we shouldn't tolerate it from them. We're not asking them to be Mother Theresa, just live by the same set of rules as the rest of us.

It's getting to the point where it's just brass neck and arrogance.

[Radium]

Don't agree with their reasoning. If I understand the timings she was tested before the law came into effect but she travelled after the law came into effect knowing she had received a positive result. It's almost Cummings-esque in its perversity.

Perhaps you could quote the part of the legislation that they misinterpreted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Radium]

Well this sets a precedent....between Cummings and Ferrier not being punished for knowingly traveling with Covid 19 ...neither having the decency to resign .... now we have a free for all to ignore restrictions as MPs and political aides seem able to ignore them.

The precedent has been in place for a while and she is a member of a growing group

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-lockdown-rules-dominic-cummings-robert-jenrick-stephen-kinnock-stanley-johnson-b745344.html?amp

Probably worth observing that the only resignations were scientific/ medical advisors


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The Modfather]

I feel no sympathy at all for her. She needs to go ASAP. Having people as stupid as her in Parliament is not good for any country.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know Dominic Cummings didn’t travel with a confirmed case of Covid, but it wouldn’t sit right with me that his furore has died down and he’s been allowed to slink back into the background. Ferrier, while having no defence for what she did, I’d feel for her if she was to lose her job but the likes of Cummings and Prince Andrew (more generally comparisons) survive to keep on their gravy trains.

[Hibs Class]

Perhaps you could quote the part of the legislation that they misinterpreted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No.

The report I read stated "The force said Margaret Ferrier had not breached laws in England which require people to self-isolate because she was tested before they came into effect."

I said that the timing of the test seemed irrelevant to me, and that the salient point was that she had received a positive test and then travelled after the legislation came into effect knowing she had Covid. In other words, I took a common-sense view.

[Berwickhibby]

No.

The report I read stated "The force said Margaret Ferrier had not breached laws in England which require people to self-isolate because she was tested before they came into effect."

I said that the timing of the test seemed irrelevant to me, and that the salient point was that she had received a positive test and then travelled after the legislation came into effect knowing she had Covid. In other words, I took a common-sense view.

Had this been an MP from any other party then the virtual torches and pitchforks would have been out rather than sympathy of them possibly losing their job.

[Moulin Yarns]

Had this been an MP from any other party then the virtual torches and pitchforks would have been out rather than sympathy of them possibly losing their job.

If you look at any post on hibs.net about Margaret Ferrier you will struggle to find any sympathy.

[Berwickhibby]

If you look at any post on hibs.net about Margaret Ferrier you will struggle to find any sympathy.

Try reading some of the recent posts

[Moulin Yarns]

Try reading some of the recent posts

Yep, you mean the ones AFTER the Met say that they are taking no further action.

I still see folks saying she should resign.

I wonder what your thoughts are?

[Berwickhibby]

Yep, you mean the ones AFTER the Met say that they are taking no further action.

I still see folks saying she should resign.

I wonder what your thoughts are?

I think ANY politician should have been sacked for behaving like that ... I am a Labour supporter and I feel that Corbyn’s dinner party treats the public with the same distain and he should also go... starting to look like one rule for them and different for us.

[Since90+2]

I think ANY politician should have been sacked for behaving like that ... I am a Labour supporter and I feel that Corbyn’s dinner party treats the public with the same distain and he should also go... starting to look like one rule for them and different for us.

There doesn't seem to be any disagreement here. Everyone on Hibs.net that I have seen post on the subject has said Ferrier should also resign. You are looking for an argument that isn't there.

And to point out once again MPs cannot be sacked. Of all those mentioned to have broken the rules only Cummings could have been sacked.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think ANY politician should have been sacked for behaving like that ... I am a Labour supporter and I feel that Corbyn’s dinner party treats the public with the same distain and he should also go... starting to look like one rule for them and different for us.

Have you been living under a stone since Ferrier took the train??

It is not possible to SACK an MP. It's been mentioned numerous times but you choose to ignore the fact. She has been removed from the SNP which is as far as the party could go. Until the parliamentary standards Committee decide if she is to be suspended then nothing else can be done.

[Berwickhibby]

Have you been living under a stone since Ferrier took the train??

It is not possible to SACK an MP. It's been mentioned numerous times but you choose to ignore the fact. She has been removed from the SNP which is as far as the party could go. Until the parliamentary standards Committee decide if she is to be suspended then nothing else can be done.

Of course I read and understand it, shows her character that she won’t do the right thing

[Hibrandenburg]

Of course I read and understand it, shows her character that she won’t do the right thing

I'm not sure that anyone is disagreeing with you.

[Bristolhibby]

That's the bit that I think really takes her behaviour on to a different level from any of the previous controversies involving Cummings, Calderwood and the various other political figures/scientists who've ended up on the front pages.

As an aside, did Cummings ever actually take a Covid test?

He did, remember he drove to Bernard Castle with his wife and kid.

Pretty reliable test IMHO.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Of course I read and understand it, shows her character that she won’t do the right thing

That, we agree on 😉 but you said she should have been SACKED.

[CapitalGreen]

Had this been an MP from any other party then the virtual torches and pitchforks would have been out rather than sympathy of them possibly losing their job.

You’re absolutely gagging on posters to back Ferrier so you can criticise them to the extent that you are now making up the existence of such posts. There has been universal condemnation of Ferriers behaviour by posters across the political spectrum and nearly all have called for her resignation. Despite this rare outbreak of unity on the holy ground for some unknown reason you seem hellbent on making out posters are split along partisan lines on the issue.

[danhibees1875]

Had this been an MP from any other party then the virtual torches and pitchforks would have been out rather than sympathy of them possibly losing their job.

Maybe my fault for not just giving you a serious answer to what I thought at the time was a flippant question. I'd have thought the same with any MP, yes.

[Moulin Yarns]

You’re absolutely gagging on posters to back Ferrier so you can criticise them to the extent that you are now making up the existence of such posts. There has been universal condemnation of Ferriers behaviour by posters across the political spectrum and nearly all have called for her resignation. Despite this rare outbreak of unity on the holy ground for some unknown reason you seem hellbent on making out posters are split along partisan lines on the issue.

I think he's just disappointed that his former colleagues in the MET didn't give her a good beating with their extended truncheons. 😉

[Berwickhibby]

You’re absolutely gagging on posters to back Ferrier so you can criticise them to the extent that you are now making up the existence of such posts. There has been universal condemnation of Ferriers behaviour by posters across the political spectrum and nearly all have called for her resignation. Despite this rare outbreak of unity on the holy ground for some unknown reason you seem hellbent on making out posters are split along partisan lines on the issue.

Try reading the earlier posts of having sympathy for Ferrier, I did not make them up...my point stands ...no sympathy would be felt at it been an MP from any other party

[Moulin Yarns]

Try reading the earlier posts of having sympathy for Ferrier, I did not make them up...my point stands ...no sympathy would be felt at it been an MP from any other party

I think you're going to have to actually quote the post(s) that offer her sympathy, then maybe count the amount of posts condemning her and see what you think then.

[Smartie]

Try reading the earlier posts of having sympathy for Ferrier, I did not make them up...my point stands ...no sympathy would be felt at it been an MP from any other party

Is it sympathy really though?

The point was made that those who have done similar haven’t paid for it with their jobs so it’s arguable that she should be treated the same as them and not more harshly.

Personally I think we should expect more from our politicians than paedophile princes, creepy SpAds etc but I accept the point re fairness.

The almost unanimous condemnation of her actions has been admirable considering how partisan the subject is.

[CapitalGreen]

Try reading the earlier posts of having sympathy for Ferrier, I did not make them up...my point stands ...no sympathy would be felt at it been an MP from any other party

I’ve read the whole thread thanks. Your desperation for this to become a debate split down partisan lines is obvious. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that people of all political persuasions find her behaviour unacceptable and believe she should resign?

[ronaldo7]

Maybe my fault for not just giving you a serious answer to what I thought at the time was a flippant question. I'd have thought the same with any MP, yes.

I liked your original response.

FTAOD This post has zero sympathy for Margaret Ferrier.

[Moulin Yarns]

I liked your original response.

FTAOD This post has zero sympathy for Margaret Ferrier.

You used 'sympathy' and 'Ferrier' in the same sentence, that will be flagged up by a Kelty Clippy as being on her side. 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Has there been any confirmation that some posts were sympathetic to Margaret Ferrier?

[marinello59]

https://www.scotsman.com/business/bifab-deal-collapse-hopes-dashed-windfarm-jobs-3011144

A sad end for the workers, let's hope something is salvaged from the wreckage.

[Antifa Hibs]

https://www.scotsman.com/business/bifab-deal-collapse-hopes-dashed-windfarm-jobs-3011144

A sad end for the workers, let's hope something is salvaged from the wreckage.

Nothing to see here. Quick sweep this under the carpet and hang the saltires out to distract the hordes...


https://www.gmbscotland.org.uk/newsroom/bifab-joint-trade-union-statement-collapse-of-bifab-edf-deal

"This is what political failure looks like and people are right to be absolutely furious.”

Spot on.

[Keith_M]

https://www.scotsman.com/business/bifab-deal-collapse-hopes-dashed-windfarm-jobs-3011144

A sad end for the workers, let's hope something is salvaged from the wreckage.


I'm a bit confused, as part of the article says the Wind Turbines are now going to be built outside Scotland but then there's this part....

"The Neart na Gaoithe (NnG) offshore wind project will now be built off the coast of Fife not far from the Methil yard which is among those snubbed."


It's entirely possible that I've picked it up wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but doesn't that mean that it will provide jobs to people in Scotland?

:dunno:

[Pretty Boy]

I'm a bit confused, as part of the article says the Wind Turbines are now going to be built outside Scotland but then there's this part....

"The Neart na Gaoithe (NnG) offshore wind project will now be built off the coast of Fife not far from the Methil yard which is among those snubbed."


It's entirely possible that I've picked it up wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but doesn't that mean that it will provide jobs to people in Scotland?

:dunno:

Is that not referring to where the wind farm itself will actually be situated when it is built rather than where construction will take place? I think it was originally planned for somewhere off the coast of East Lothian.

It's poorly worded whatever it means.

[Keith_M]

Is that not referring to where the wind farm itself will actually be situated when it is built rather than where construction will take place? I think it was originally planned for somewhere off the coast of East Lothian.

It's poorly worded whatever it means.


That makes sense.


Cheers PB.

:aok:

[Future17]

Nothing to see here. Quick sweep this under the carpet and hang the saltires out to distract the hordes...


https://www.gmbscotland.org.uk/newsroom/bifab-joint-trade-union-statement-collapse-of-bifab-edf-deal

"This is what political failure looks like and people are right to be absolutely furious.”

Spot on.

The unions aren't quoted as saying what the proposed solution was? :confused:

[RyeSloan]

https://www.scotsman.com/business/bifab-deal-collapse-hopes-dashed-windfarm-jobs-3011144

A sad end for the workers, let's hope something is salvaged from the wreckage.

£52m of SG money thrown at this so far....for what?

Add to this sorry tale the news that the Prestwick preferred bidder has withdrawn and we have another £43m that seems to be lost to the wind as well.

Then you can add the £200m expected cost of the Calmac ferry fiasco which will be at least double the original projected cost....a cost that was already the highest from the 5 tenders received.

As Industrial strategies go it’s not exactly a ringing endorsement.

[Jack]

https://www.scotsman.com/business/bifab-deal-collapse-hopes-dashed-windfarm-jobs-3011144

A sad end for the workers, let's hope something is salvaged from the wreckage.

So the Scottish Government have pumped millions in and offered millions in loans but as the minority shareholder it would be illegal for them to do more while the majority shareholder won't make the investment necessary but its the Scottish Governments fault.

Have I got that right?

[marinello59]

So the Scottish Government have pumped millions in and offered millions in loans but as the minority shareholder it would be illegal for them to do more while the majority shareholder won't make the investment necessary but its the Scottish Governments fault.

Have I got that right?

Its NEVER the Scottish Governments fault. :greengrin They went in to this knowing what the legal restrictions were so obviously they made sure they had cast iron guarantees that the business was viable and that their business partner would continue to do their part before parting with millions of pounds worth of public money. Didn't they?
As I've typed this Sturgeon has just said they are continuing to investigate a way ahead. Fingers crossed they find a way out of this and the the workers, who tried so hard to keep the business viable, get the positive outcome they deserve.

[Ozyhibby]

So the Scottish Government have pumped millions in and offered millions in loans but as the minority shareholder it would be illegal for them to do more while the majority shareholder won't make the investment necessary but its the Scottish Governments fault.

Have I got that right?

I think it’s a mistake for the SG to get involved at all. Government ministers make poor business people. Windmills, Ferries etc should be bought off the shelf from the best commercial supplier available. Hopefully the airport can be offloaded at some point but I have my doubts.
Government needs to concentrate on providing government services.
Given the global demand for windmills just now, if this company couldn’t survive without subsidy then it will never survive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Its NEVER the Scottish Governments fault. :greengrin They went in to this knowing what the legal restrictions were so obviously they made sure they had cast iron guarantees that the business was viable and that their business partner would continue to do their part before parting with millions of pounds worth of public money. Didn't they?
As I've typed this Sturgeon has just said they are continuing to investigate a way ahead. Fingers crossed they find a way out of this and the the workers, who tried so hard to keep the business viable, get the positive outcome they deserve.

I've not read it all but where are EDF in all this? EDF, almost state owned by the French government (85% state owned?!)

[One Day Soon]

I think it’s a mistake for the SG to get involved at all. Government ministers make poor business people. Windmills, Ferries etc should be bought off the shelf from the best commercial supplier available. Hopefully the airport can be offloaded at some point but I have my doubts.
Government needs to concentrate on providing government services.
Given the global demand for windmills just now, if this company couldn’t survive without subsidy then it will never survive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What about Ferriers? Do we perhaps need a better quality supplier of Ferriers?

[RyeSloan]

So the Scottish Government have pumped millions in and offered millions in loans but as the minority shareholder it would be illegal for them to do more while the majority shareholder won't make the investment necessary but its the Scottish Governments fault.

Have I got that right?

I think you have [emoji736]

Trying to suggest that after providing nearly £40m in loans that were then agreed to be converted to equity which was then written down to a value of near zero in the space of 2-3 years is someone else’s fault would be wholly incorrect.


More insight into just how ‘effectively’ public funds are being used:


https://theferret.scot/scottish-government-housing-fund-100m/

[Pretty Boy]

What's the story that's being talked about on Twitter about something dodgy going on involving the US dept of defence at Prestwick?

I know it's a Scot Gov owned facility but are they directly involved in the day to day running? Potential scandal or much ado about nothing? I know there has been a bit furore that some of the flights carrying terror suspects hadn't been fully investigated, UK govt obstruction, but this seems to be about money changing hands.

[Ozyhibby]

What's the story that's being talked about on Twitter about something dodgy going on involving the US dept of defence at Prestwick?

I know it's a Scot Gov owned facility but are they directly involved in the day to day running? Potential scandal or much ado about nothing? I know there has been a bit furore that some of the flights carrying terror suspects hadn't been fully investigated, UK govt obstruction, but this seems to be about money changing hands.

Prestwick has benefitted massively from Trump getting the US defence dept to do all their refuelling there, where he also makes all the staff and crews stay at Trump Turnberry rather than the nearby airport hotel.
Not sure that is a problem for SG though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jack]

Prestwick has benefitted massively from Trump getting the US defence dept to do all their refuelling there, where he also makes all the staff and crews stay at Trump Turnberry rather than the nearby airport hotel.
Not sure that is a problem for SG though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Funny. I noticed during lockdown a lot of USA military flights going to/from Prestwick.

I'm mot sure if its still the case. It was a lot easier then when there were much fewer aircraft in the sky clogging up my flight tracker app!

Have to say I'm a bit surprised if Trump was behind it. He would surely know the Scottish Government own it and there's no love lost there.

[Ozyhibby]

Funny. I noticed during lockdown a lot of USA military flights going to/from Prestwick.

I'm mot sure if its still the case. It was a lot easier then when there were much fewer aircraft in the sky clogging up my flight tracker app!

Have to say I'm a bit surprised if Trump was behind it. He would surely know the Scottish Government own it and there's no love lost there.

He won’t care a jot about that so long as US govt money is going to Turnberry.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/air-force-finds-air-crews-stayed-trump-resort/story?id=65594325


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

He won’t care a jot about that so long as US govt money is going to Turnberry.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/air-force-finds-air-crews-stayed-trump-resort/story?id=65594325


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wouldn't allowing foreign military aircraft to refuel on British soil fall under defence?

[JimBHibees]

Wouldn't allowing foreign military aircraft to refuel on British soil fall under defence?

You would think so

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/donald-trump-administration-pays-state-owned-prestwick-airport-nearly-ps25m-3011909

Not really much of a story. 'People are willing to do things for money' is hardly a startling revelation.

[danhibees1875]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/donald-trump-administration-pays-state-owned-prestwick-airport-nearly-ps25m-3011909

Not really much of a story. 'People are willing to do things for money' is hardly a startling revelation.

What a ridiculous story.

Imagine if they'd rejected US' millions - they'd have had a field day over how the SNP put politics above realities and were squandering tax payer cash on petty squabbles.

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/donald-trump-administration-pays-state-owned-prestwick-airport-nearly-ps25m-3011909

Not really much of a story. 'People are willing to do things for money' is hardly a startling revelation.

I don't get it, :confused: surely that's just business, an airport earning money ... is that not the general idea

[One Day Soon]

This is one of a number of airports previously known to have been used by the US for extraordinary rendition flights of terror suspects.

It has featured previously in the concern of SNP figures when calling for full disclosure of a US intelligence committee report into the use of this practice and Humza Yousaf was recently disappointed by the UK Foreign Secretary's refusal to ask the US to release the full report so that a Police Scotland investigation into potential criminality could have access to it.

When a question arises now about a huge increase in money being paid to the same airport by the same defence department from the same state for flights whose purposes remain unknown the SNP response is 'nothing to do with us'. I don't know what's worse, the double standards or the willingness to quietly acquiesce because it means an SNP Scottish Government bailed-out venture is making money from it. The hypocrisy is ****ing staggering.

An airport owned by the Scottish Government and operated at arms length on its behalf by a separate board. If this was Calmac, the Scottish Prison Service, a Health Board or indeed Police Scotland - all arms length bodies operated in a similar way - Ministers would be on the phone demanding to know what is going on if it suited them. What's stopping Humza Yousaf from asking his airport for assurances and asking the US Government for the same?

[Future17]

This is one of a number of airports previously known to have been used by the US for extraordinary rendition flights of terror suspects.

It has featured previously in the concern of SNP figures when calling for full disclosure of a US intelligence committee report into the use of this practice and Humza Yousaf was recently disappointed by the UK Foreign Secretary's refusal to ask the US to release the full report so that a Police Scotland investigation into potential criminality could have access to it.

When a question arises now about a huge increase in money being paid to the same airport by the same defence department from the same state for flights whose purposes remain unknown the SNP response is 'nothing to do with us'. I don't know what's worse, the double standards or the willingness to quietly acquiesce because it means an SNP Scottish Government bailed-out venture is making money from it. The hypocrisy is ****ing staggering.

An airport owned by the Scottish Government and operated at arms length on its behalf by a separate board. If this was Calmac, the Scottish Prison Service, a Health Board or indeed Police Scotland - all arms length bodies operated in a similar way - Ministers would be on the phone demanding to know what is going on if it suited them. What's stopping Humza Yousaf from asking his airport for assurances and asking the US Government for the same?

I might be missing the point here, but are you not saying that Yousaf has asked for information and not received it from/via the UK Government? :confused:

[One Day Soon]

I might be missing the point here, but are you not saying that Yousaf has asked for information and not received it from/via the UK Government? :confused:

No, he's asked for the UK Government to intercede with the US Government to try to get them to release their 2014 US Senate intelligence report on rendition that seems to have taken place previously through Scottish airports including Prestwick and Glasgow. None of that covers the last six years or indeed now.

Meanwhile on this stuff in the present day regarding what is now a Scottish Government owned airport - tumbleweed.

[Hibrandenburg]

No, he's asked for the UK Government to intercede with the US Government to try to get them to release their 2014 US Senate intelligence report on rendition that seems to have taken place previously through Scottish airports including Prestwick and Glasgow. None of that covers the last six years or indeed now.

Meanwhile on this stuff in the present day regarding what is now a Scottish Government owned airport - tumbleweed.

Can the Scottish government refuse to facilitate what is essentially a defence and therefore referred power? Are the UK government obliged to inform the Scottish government about defence issues?

[G B Young]

What about Ferriers? Do we perhaps need a better quality supplier of Ferriers?

:greengrin

I think the standard advice with faulty Ferriers is to leave them out of the public eye for a period of time before slowly re-introducing them to the market and hope nobody remembers they're damaged goods.

[Ozyhibby]

No, he's asked for the UK Government to intercede with the US Government to try to get them to release their 2014 US Senate intelligence report on rendition that seems to have taken place previously through Scottish airports including Prestwick and Glasgow. None of that covers the last six years or indeed now.

Meanwhile on this stuff in the present day regarding what is now a Scottish Government owned airport - tumbleweed.

Sorry, what exactly is the current accusation regarding Prestwick?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Sorry, what exactly is the current accusation regarding Prestwick?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Something about Jackie Bailey saying it's turned into a pseudo US military base, whilst forgetting about those big black things on the Gairloch and Faslane, which are eh, in Jackie Baileys constituency.

Or something like that. :aok:

[One Day Soon]

Can the Scottish government refuse to facilitate what is essentially a defence and therefore referred power? Are the UK government obliged to inform the Scottish government about defence issues?

There are two separate issues here. One is what the Scottish Government does and doesn't control and the other is what it chooses to involve itself in regardless of whether or not it is in its competence.

It has no control of defence, though it does have control of an asset which it owns - Prestwick Airport. In one case (the 2014 report) where it has no competence over defence it has chosen to publicly try to get itself involved - largely I suspect for convenient political reasons. In the other case (the use of Prestwick Airport which it currently owns) where it also has no competence over defence it has chosen not to publicly try to get itself involved - largely also I suspect for different convenient political reasons.

There are certainly plenty of matters which are not devolved to the Scottish Government but which it routinely tries to get itself involved with. For some reason, this isn't one of them. If there were ANY doubt as to whether rendition might be taking place through another airport not owned by the Scottish Government they'd be screaming publicly at the elephant in the room, not pretending it wasn't there.

[JeMeSouviens]

There are two separate issues here. One is what the Scottish Government does and doesn't control and the other is what it chooses to involve itself in regardless of whether or not it is in its competence.

It has no control of defence, though it does have control of an asset which it owns - Prestwick Airport. In one case (the 2014 report) where it has no competence over defence it has chosen to publicly try to get itself involved - largely I suspect for convenient political reasons. In the other case (the use of Prestwick Airport which it currently owns) where it also has no competence over defence it has chosen not to publicly try to get itself involved - largely also I suspect for different convenient political reasons.

There are certainly plenty of matters which are not devolved to the Scottish Government but which it routinely tries to get itself involved with. For some reason, this isn't one of them. If there were ANY doubt as to whether rendition might be taking place through another airport not owned by the Scottish Government they'd be screaming publicly at the elephant in the room, not pretending it wasn't there.

In one case there was evidence of nefarious goings on (the 2014 report). In the other there is absolutely no evidence other than "it's the sort of thing Trump would do". It's not much to go on, is it?

[JimBHibees]

This is one of a number of airports previously known to have been used by the US for extraordinary rendition flights of terror suspects.

It has featured previously in the concern of SNP figures when calling for full disclosure of a US intelligence committee report into the use of this practice and Humza Yousaf was recently disappointed by the UK Foreign Secretary's refusal to ask the US to release the full report so that a Police Scotland investigation into potential criminality could have access to it.

When a question arises now about a huge increase in money being paid to the same airport by the same defence department from the same state for flights whose purposes remain unknown the SNP response is 'nothing to do with us'. I don't know what's worse, the double standards or the willingness to quietly acquiesce because it means an SNP Scottish Government bailed-out venture is making money from it. The hypocrisy is ****ing staggering.

An airport owned by the Scottish Government and operated at arms length on its behalf by a separate board. If this was Calmac, the Scottish Prison Service, a Health Board or indeed Police Scotland - all arms length bodies operated in a similar way - Ministers would be on the phone demanding to know what is going on if it suited them. What's stopping Humza Yousaf from asking his airport for assurances and asking the US Government for the same?

Yep think it was used for years for that during Blair and Brown premierships

[One Day Soon]

Sorry, what exactly is the current accusation regarding Prestwick?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The question at issue is why US military spending on aircraft fuel at Prestwick has risen so dramatically in the last couple of years while it has been owned by the Scottish Government. Perhaps it's because the US military has developed an affection for the airport's historical association with Elvis, or perhaps there is a more sinister reason such as the use of extraordinary rendition of suspected terrorists.

We don't know. Neither does our SNP Scottish Government. The key point is that it doesn't seem to give a **** either way because the US military are throwing money at their airport so if rendition is taking place then it's all good and screw human rights. I mean, why would you want to even raise a concern with either the airport you own or the US government since it might draw attention to it all in a way that isn't good for the SNP?

[One Day Soon]

In one case there was evidence of nefarious goings on (the 2014 report). In the other there is absolutely no evidence other than "it's the sort of thing Trump would do". It's not much to go on, is it?

Yes, best not to even ask just in case.

[One Day Soon]

Yep think it was used for years for that during Blair and Brown premierships

That is the suggestion, much examined, but now that Prestwick is owned by an SNP government it doesn't matter anymore whether the practice may still be taking place.

[JeMeSouviens]

The question at issue is why US military spending on aircraft fuel at Prestwick has risen so dramatically in the last couple of years while it has been owned by the Scottish Government. Perhaps it's because the US military has developed an affection for the airport's historical association with Elvis, or perhaps there is a more sinister reason such as the use of extraordinary rendition of suspected terrorists.

We don't know. Neither does our SNP Scottish Government. The key point is that it doesn't seem to give a **** either way because the US military are throwing money at their airport so if rendition is taking place then it's all good and screw human rights. I mean, why would you want to even raise a concern with either the airport you own or the US government since it might draw attention to it all in a way that isn't good for the SNP?

You do know that the US military has a large presence in Europe right? They don't have an *entirely* torture based policy afaik. :rolleyes:

You actually sound like a Corbynista on this, so nice party unity. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

That is the suggestion, much examined, but now that Prestwick is owned by an SNP government it doesn't matter anymore whether the practice may still be taking place.

Or maybe the question should be asked of the administrations that were known to allow rendition flights to use the airport? The current use by US flights is not currently known, and if you think Nicola (aka Nippy) knows what is going on at Prestwick I think you would be disappointed, let's face it she is a wee bit busy at the moment.

[ronaldo7]

Yes, best not to even ask just in case.

Nice to know that we can ask a question twice.

Has a generation passed then?

[One Day Soon]

You do know that the US military has a large presence in Europe right? They don't have an *entirely* torture based policy afaik. :rolleyes:

You actually sound like a Corbynista on this, so nice party unity. :wink:


The SNP lack of curiosity on this screams volumes. In ANY other circumstance not involving an SNP Government owned airport they'd be wanting answers. On this? 'Yeah, we couldn't really give a ****.'

[One Day Soon]

Or maybe the question should be asked of the administrations that were known to allow rendition flights to use the airport? The current use by US flights is not currently known, and if you think Nicola (aka Nippy) knows what is going on at Prestwick I think you would be disappointed, let's face it she is a wee bit busy at the moment.


Is there any reason not to ask about what was happening up until the 2014 report AND what is happening now? I mean since Humza has written to the Foreign Secretary on the former has he got carpal tunnel or something that stops him writing a second letter on the current position?

[One Day Soon]

Nice to know that we can ask a question twice.

Has a generation passed then?


Yeah I'd go for jokey deflection too if I were you. I mean human rights don't matter THAT much, right?

[ronaldo7]

Yeah I'd go for jokey deflection too if I were you. I mean human rights don't matter THAT much, right?

You've gone all trumpian on this one.

I remember when evidence or at least a feasible lead used to trigger investigations.

You could always ask Jackie to do some digging for you.:wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Or maybe the question should be asked of the administrations that were known to allow rendition flights to use the airport? The current use by US flights is not currently known, and if you think Nicola (aka Nippy) knows what is going on at Prestwick I think you would be disappointed, let's face it she is a wee bit busy at the moment.

"Hey Donald, yer no up tae mischief at mah airport ur yeh"?

"Clamp it nippy, yer boss Boris (great great leader) has given me the thumbs up to do what I want".

[One Day Soon]

You've gone all trumpian on this one.

I remember when evidence or at least a feasible lead used to trigger investigations.

You could always ask Jackie to do some digging for you.:wink:


Not asking awkward internal questions is an SNP specialism, whether its when sleepy cuddles are happening or when odd financial movements take place at your own airport.

[One Day Soon]

"Hey Donald, yer no up tae mischief at mah airport ur yeh"?

"Clamp it nippy, yer boss Boris (great great leader) has given me the thumbs up to do what I want".


You're right. Best not to even try to find out what's going on. Don't know what you might find.

[ronaldo7]

Not asking awkward internal questions is an SNP specialism, whether its when sleepy cuddles are happening or when odd financial movements take place at your own airport.

Whereas your specialism today seems to be Mud, and trying to stick it to a wall somewhere...anywhere.

It's your airport too. Maybe you could rock up and demand the answers to your questions.:faf:

[lord bunberry]

You're right. Best not to even try to find out what's going on. Don't know what you might find.
I might be missing something here , but what is it you’re suggesting is going on? There’s been some allegations made in America that haven’t been substantiated or investigated to my knowledge. It seems that the allegations are that Trump is using Prestwick for his own financial gain, that might be a problem for Trump, but there’s no suggestion as far as I’m aware that the airport is doing anything other than facilitating flights which is exactly what it’s there to do.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not asking awkward internal questions is an SNP specialism, whether its when sleepy cuddles are happening or when odd financial movements take place at your own airport.

I'm trying to get to grips with what is odd about a transatlantic flight stopping to refuel at a convenient airport. 🤔

[Moulin Yarns]

I might be missing something here , but what is it you’re suggesting is going on? There’s been some allegations made in America that haven’t been substantiated or investigated to my knowledge. It seems that the allegations are that Trump is using Prestwick for his own financial gain, that might be a problem for Trump, but there’s no suggestion as far as I’m aware that the airport is doing anything other than facilitating flights which is exactly what it’s there to do.

Is it possible that trump is using airforce 1 as a private taxi to Turnberry?

[One Day Soon]

Whereas your specialism today seems to be Mud, and trying to stick it to a wall somewhere...anywhere.

It's your airport too. Maybe you could rock up and demand the answers to your questions.:faf:


Seems that Standing Up for Scotland has turned into Shutting Up about Scotland.

[Just Alf]

Seems that Standing Up for Scotland has turned into Shutting Up about Scotland.What if the question has already been asked? Who's to say that part of the condition of the new contract that brought more of the refuelling to Prestwick included a commitment to not put any rendition flights through that route?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Seems that Standing Up for Scotland has turned into Shutting Up about Scotland.

You're so last decade mate. :greengrin As we move ahead implementing a fairer Scotland, you can keep your Union DWP.

https://t.co/OLCTYCV2jc?amp=1

https://t.co/vrNf4ujJXs?amp=1

24063

[Future17]

There are two separate issues here. One is what the Scottish Government does and doesn't control and the other is what it chooses to involve itself in regardless of whether or not it is in its competence.

It has no control of defence, though it does have control of an asset which it owns - Prestwick Airport. In one case (the 2014 report) where it has no competence over defence it has chosen to publicly try to get itself involved - largely I suspect for convenient political reasons. In the other case (the use of Prestwick Airport which it currently owns) where it also has no competence over defence it has chosen not to publicly try to get itself involved - largely also I suspect for different convenient political reasons.

There are certainly plenty of matters which are not devolved to the Scottish Government but which it routinely tries to get itself involved with. For some reason, this isn't one of them. If there were ANY doubt as to whether rendition might be taking place through another airport not owned by the Scottish Government they'd be screaming publicly at the elephant in the room, not pretending it wasn't there.

Sorry, I know I'm probably coming across as obtuse (or worse) but I still can't understand the criticism here.

If the Scottish Government wanted to keep a lid on what the US military is currently doing at Prestwick, what would it have to gain by pursuing answers over the 2014 report?

[ronaldo7]

https://t.co/5glGPLO9TV?amp=1

Biagi on the ball.

[stantonhibby]

https://t.co/5glGPLO9TV?amp=1

Biagi on the ball.

That's murder......like a childrens TV programme on politics

[lord bunberry]

Is it possible that trump is using airforce 1 as a private taxi to Turnberry?
As far as I can tell trump is using prestwick because it’s benefiting his personal business interests. He has his golf course and hotel nearby so maybe he’s making people stay there and coining it in.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's murder......like a childrens TV programme on politics

Isn't the point of it to lampoon the Better Together ads in 2014 with the "wee housewife".Now they were murder, not to mention patronising and misogynist.

[stantonhibby]

Isn't the point of it to lampoon the Better Together ads in 2014 with the "wee housewife".Now they were murder, not to mention patronising and misogynist.

That would make sense.

[Callum_62]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/sturgeon-for-pm-snp-leader-more-popular-than-boris-johnson-in-england/24/10/#.X5QZDNqkCn8.facebook

Time for the SNP to branch out?
Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Isn't the point of it to lampoon the Better Together ads in 2014 with the "wee housewife".Now they were murder, not to mention patronising and misogynist.

Correct.

I thought they covered all bases, even as far as eating our cereal.

[Keith_M]

You're right. Best not to even try to find out what's going on. Don't know what you might find.


Hi, can I just ask what it is you think is going on and what that's based on?

As far as I remember the request from the SG previously was because of stories of using Prestwick for rendition. Is there any suggestion that's happening again or that something equally bad has started happening?


:dunno:


I have an open mind on this and genuinely curious.

[Ozyhibby]

Hi, can I just ask what it is you think is going on and what that's based on?

As far as I remember the request from the SG previously was because of stories of using Prestwick for rendition. Is there any suggestion that's happening again or that something equally bad has started happening?


:dunno:


I have an open mind on this and genuinely curious.

There is no suggestion this is happening. The US has just decided to start using Prestwick for refuelling more. There could be lots of reasons for this. It could be because it’s very cheap due to the fact they have no passenger flights to compete with for landing slots, cheaper fuel or just because Trump want flight crew to stay at Turnberry. There is certainly no hint of a scandal for the SG other than in the fertile imaginations of some unionists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jack]

There is no suggestion this is happening. The US has just decided to start using Prestwick for refuelling more. There could be lots of reasons for this. It could be because it’s very cheap due to the fact they have no passenger flights to compete with for landing slots, cheaper fuel or just because Trump want flight crew to stay at Turnberry. There is certainly no hint of a scandal for the SG other than in the fertile imaginations of some unionists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats about it. The 'scandal' is air crew using the Trump Hotel.

TBH that seems a bit of a miss too. Only 6% of them have used his hotel, it's cheaper than the one normally used and is within the budget guidelines.

If ever there was a non story from whichever way you look at it it's this one!

[Keith_M]

There is no suggestion this is happening. The US has just decided to start using Prestwick for refuelling more. There could be lots of reasons for this. It could be because it’s very cheap due to the fact they have no passenger flights to compete with for landing slots, cheaper fuel or just because Trump want flight crew to stay at Turnberry. There is certainly no hint of a scandal for the SG other than in the fertile imaginations of some unionists.
...


I haven't heard anything either but as One Day Soon seems to have a very strong interest in this, I thought maybe just asking him (without taking sides or using sarcasm) was the only fair approach.


I've read about the Trump Hotel thing as well, which doesn't seem to reflect in any way on the SG (as far as I'm aware), so wanted to know if there was more to it than that.

[Keith_M]

I haven't heard anything either but as One Day Soon seems to have a very strong interest in this, I thought maybe just asking him (without taking sides or using sarcasm) was the only fair approach.


I've read about the Trump Hotel thing as well, which doesn't seem to reflect in any way on the SG (as far as I'm aware), so wanted to know if there was more to it than that.


I take it I killed yet another discussion by requesting a fair and balanced viewpoint supported by facts

:tumble:





I guess I just still haven't grasped how this Social Media thingy is supposed to work.

:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

I take it I killed yet another discussion by requesting a fair and balanced viewpoint supported by facts

:tumble:





I guess I just still haven't grasped how this Social Media thingy is supposed to work.

:greengrin

I decided to pass on the offer having posted repeatedly on it already. There’s only so much time you can give over to trying to make your point...

[Keith_M]

I decided to pass on the offer having posted repeatedly on it already. There’s only so much time you can give over to trying to make your point...


Okeydokey.

[Ozyhibby]

.

[ronaldo7]

SNP retain Craigentinny and Duddingston ward, in Edinburgh with an increased vote share on last time.

[speedy_gonzales]

To refrain from dragging the Covid thread further off topic, I thought I'd have my right to reply here.


What I find pathetic is the glee from certain people as soon as there's the slightest excuse to criticise the SNP.

If there was the same reaction on here to every fault committed by the tories or even some other london-ruled politicians there would be no room left for football.


As someone who is becoming more and more apolitical by every passing day, I think there has been similar reaction to other politically types when their transgressions have came to light.
Dominic Cummings anyone?

By this, I meant that whenever a politician does something stupid, makes a mistake, has a nightmare or simply just screws up on a gargantuan level, whether intentional or accidental, whether unrepentant or contrite, then it is generally commented on here.
The intensity or number of comments doesn't always corelate to the nature of the faux pas.
I was not intending to directly compare the acts of Ian Blackford to Dominic Cummings, I was just trying to reply to the part in bold that nobody, from any party, is beyond reproach when it comes to the Hibs.net posters. Perhaps my "similar reaction" comment wasn't the correct turn of phrase and reads as if the individual acts were similar, which they clearly aren't.


It's nothing like the Cummings situation. Not even in the same hemisphere.
Agreed, don't think I said they were.


Surely you're not suggesting that the 2 incidents are comparable?

Where does Ian Blackford knowingly break rules then lie trying to take the British public for mugs?

Cummings deserved every ounce of derision, maybe not for what he did, but what he tried to get people to swallow afterward.

Correct, I wasn't suggesting that.


Seriously? I've already said what Blackford did was well out of order but comparing that to what Cummings did is preposterous.

It would be, if I had.


Aw come on, surely the fact that IB has already apologised rubbishes this?

I'm not sure what this is, but although contrition is a welcome trait in our politicians, it doesn't absolve them if they make mistakes/errors/screw-ups?


I think everybody seems to be missing the point Speedy was making. He could have used a better incident to illustrate that point but he is correct in saying it’s not only SNP politicians who get pulled up for mistakes. Surely most of us can agree on that?

This. I certainly could have picked a better example. In fact I need not have named anyone as it's clear for anyone to see that no party is exempt from criticism here.


Politicians should be pulled up for their mistakes- every last one of them. If we don't then they'll only get worse.

But the level of condemnation should reflect the deed.

Agreed.


I genuinely don't enjoy the political discussion anymore (is it even discussion) on the many forms of social media. The minority of folk that actively take part seem far too entrenched in their views and it is very difficult to offer comment or share opinion without worrying about the inevitable pile-on from those partisan types.

I think the above is an example, Peevemor feels the SNP are unduly attacked for on here for what could be considered a trivial matter. As someone with no political affiliation, my opinion is nobody is exempt from the wrath. But what was read by some/many is that the selfish and illegal act by Dominic Cummings which he has yet to apologise for is a direct comparison to Ian Blackford posting an ignorant comment on Twitter (ignorant in that he wasn't aware where the photographer stayed).
I can only stress that wasn't how I wrote it, and as I say above I could have left out the name, but the reaction to my comment seems just as much overkill as to that by Ian Blackford.
It's almost ironic.

[Keith_M]

... the reaction to my comment seems just as much overkill as to that by Ian Blackford.
It's almost ironic.


I obviously didn't want to get involved in the discussion on the other thread but I agree with this. I think there was some miscommunication somewhere along the line and people perhaps went a bit overboard.


As for Blackford's comment...

I honestly wish people in the public eye, such as politicians, would stay well clear of Social Media. The danger is always there to post something stupid before you got the chance to put your brain into gear and I think that's exactly what he did.

It was a stupid comment but I'm still not convinced it was anti-English, as there's nothing in the post to suggest that, but people are always willing to infer something like that and make attacks on people based on that. Unfortunately that's the kind of world we now live in.

[Smartie]

I thought his apology was a bit half arsed.

If I were in his shoes I’d have grovelled.

It was a very stupid thing for a man in his position to get wrong, and some of the ludicrous stuff it led to was inevitable.