SNP nonsense

[Frankhfc]

but would the wildlife listen :confused:

To be fair to Slavers even Alan Titsmarch regrets concreting back yards and front gardens.

Its not an snp v everyone else issue.

Its a human decency that we respect the environment.

[Slavers]

but would the wildlife listen :confused:

If you have people like the horse whisperer and have one for each animal and bird then yes they would listen! We could tell them in advance to **** off so we can tarmac over their ****'ing homes!

HOW DARE YOU!!!

[Frankhfc]

Maybe I was a bit premature in sticking up for Slavers.

[Slavers]

Maybe I was a bit premature in sticking up for Slavers.

Im sure it's not the first time you have been a bit premi so don't worry about it :)

[Frankhfc]

Im sure it's not the first time you have been a bit premi so don't worry about it :)

Chance would be a fine thing young Slavers. I'm a long time married man now so don't think about such matters.

:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I’m pretty sure city living is a more greener more sustainable way of living.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Absolutely!!

To get 2 new tyres fitted to my gas guzzler I had a 58 mile round trip. So much for living the good life in the countryside!!

[Slavers]

Yes, but we are nowhere near being a city island. Miles off. Plenty of green and pleasant land and plenty of space for more people with more capital contributing more to society.

Its a perpetual myth that we are “full up”. It’s not Mad Max down here. Resources are just being squirreld into the wrong places. Moving away from the centre mass of South East is essential.

The lot I work for moved away from London in the 90s. Massive employment brought to Bristol and the fringe benefits to the wider areas (I bought a house, live and spend my money in Chippenham).

J

"They paved paradise and put up a parking lot" - Joni Mitchell

Big Yellow Taxi a song by Joni Mitchell you should give it a listen it might change the way you think about your environment.

[Slavers]

Absolutely!!

To get 2 new tyres fitted to my gas guzzler I had a 58 mile round trip. So much for living the good life in the countryside!!

You should take it into the city and sit in gridlocked traffic with the engine running for a few hours each day then if you think that's the better option?

[Moulin Yarns]

You should take it into the city and sit with the engine running in gridlocked traffic for a few hours each day then if you think that's the better option?

If I lived in a city, like Edinburgh, which has a decent public transport system it wouldn't be an issue. Besides which modern cars have stop/start technology which prevents that. 😁

[Slavers]

If I lived in a city, like Edinburgh, which has a decent public transport system it wouldn't be an issue. Besides which modern cars have stop/start technology which prevents that. 😁

Yes if you lived in a city but you don't because you prefer the countryside and wildlife?

[lord bunberry]

Don't you ever think that by constantly expanding cities and towns that it may put pressure on public services?

I'm guessing your going to say no there is no link to be had.

Constantly seeking population growth through migration then it surely impacts on the environment. More people, more natural resources being used, more pollution less and less greenfield sites.

Why would you want to turn green and pleasant lands into Singapore?
Constantly expanding cities and towns take the pressure off the rest of the country which is largely uninhabited. Greenfield sites in the central belt are completely pointless imo. We live in a spectacularly beautiful country that needs and welcomes migrants and those migrants are what allow our country to continue to be the place we all want it to be.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes if you lived in a city but you don't because you prefer the countryside and wildlife?

Nothing to do with preference, I live where I do because that is where my work was.

So there is no wildlife in the city?

I'v seen foxes in Great Junction Street!
I have seen kingfishers, dippers and otters along the water of Leith. This year was a bumper year for painted ladies, again, I saw hundreds along the water of Leith.

And it's not just me that know about Edinburgh's abundance of wildlife.

https://www.discoverwildlife.com/uncategorized/5-great-places-to-see-wildlife-in-edinburgh/

http://www.wild-scotland.org.uk/where-to-watch-wildlife/scottish-regions/edinburgh-lothians-scottish-borders/

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/five-best-wildlife-spots-to-explore-around-edinburgh-and-the-lothians-1-4757922

https://ww2.rspb.org.uk/about-the-rspb/at-home-and-abroad/scotland/edinburgh/wildlife.aspx

[cabbageandribs1875]

If you have people like the horse whisperer and have one for each animal and bird then yes they would listen! We could tell them in advance to **** off so we can tarmac over their ****'ing homes!

HOW DARE YOU!!!



calm down Greta, calm down

[cabbageandribs1875]

our dear leader visiting sunny leith yesterday, hope she wished us well for todays semi-final :)

22666

[cabbageandribs1875]

George Sq 2pm

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/73167846_2977530615593596_4956705616102948864_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQnAV5ZeMwmd3Og8UO7ojdsOhf87MzmBbQ0R5JVfVfc nnHukMWINgZdo0u5tn4SV-OE&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=bd169f29f73f26e720296d147e541d6d&oe=5E16F29D


get they lion rampants away tae.. :)

[Green Man]

"They paved paradise and put up a parking lot" - Joni Mitchell

Big Yellow Taxi a song by Joni Mitchell you should give it a listen it might change the way you think about your environment.

That would actually have alleviated traffic congestion on the outskirts of paradise, something which Mitchell fails to mention.

[Cataplana]

our dear leader visiting sunny leith yesterday, hope she wished us well for todays semi-final :)

22666

Get Adam McVey out of that picture, the guy is a liability.

[Fife-Hibee]

calm down Greta, calm down

:greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

now this is a particularly nasty piece, labour candidate for edinburgh south west,Frances Hoole, comes out with this p@sh then demands joanna cherry tells people not to abuse HER,for being abusive, if she didn't perceive it as abusive she should have left it then surely ? :rolleyes: utter freakin imbecile
https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-letter-to-the-jo-cox-foundation/?fbclid=IwAR0n9D9uw5dPd0PyAdwbrb6qGxlc1NZL78-YKvgNfxNShK72dQExg94rKx8
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hoole1-1.jpg


look forward to the public thoughts of the jo cox foundation, and of course the scottish MSM printing this story

[Frankhfc]

now this is a particularly nasty piece, labour candidate for edinburgh south west,Frances Hoole, comes out with this p@sh then demands joanna cherry tells people not to abuse HER,for being abusive, if she didn't perceive it as abusive she should have left it then surely ? :rolleyes: utter freakin imbecile
https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-letter-to-the-jo-cox-foundation/?fbclid=IwAR0n9D9uw5dPd0PyAdwbrb6qGxlc1NZL78-YKvgNfxNShK72dQExg94rKx8
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hoole1-1.jpg


look forward to the public thoughts of the jo cox foundation, and of course the scottish MSM printing this story

Looks to me to be whipped up hysterical point scoring childishness that in the wider sense of grown up politics means nothing to those who simply want governed by people who care about the economy and public services. Both the snp and labour are doing themselves no favours here.

[mjhibby]

"They paved paradise and put up a parking lot" - Joni Mitchell

Big Yellow Taxi a song by Joni Mitchell you should give it a listen it might change the way you think about your environment.

You don't know what you've lost till it's gone. The biggest tragedy of modern life is folks acceptance of traditions,ways of life,monuments and worst of all animals disappearing at an alarming rate. Our own selfishness beggars belief. The land will be here long after were gone but boy are we doing our best to **** it up. Profit before people is killing us literally.

[mjhibby]

I didn't realise it until I read this thread, but although Edinburgh will always be my home and I miss it dearly, I'm so glad I'm away from all this petty crap.

The Corbyn stuff is more than enough for me. :wink:

Edinburgh is not they worse place to stay but when I come back from hols it does seem a very petty city till I get back into the swing of things.

[Slavers]

Nothing to do with preference, I live where I do because that is where my work was.

So there is no wildlife in the city?

I'v seen foxes in Great Junction Street!
I have seen kingfishers, dippers and otters along the water of Leith. This year was a bumper year for painted ladies, again, I saw hundreds along the water of Leith.

And it's not just me that know about Edinburgh's abundance of wildlife.

https://www.discoverwildlife.com/uncategorized/5-great-places-to-see-wildlife-in-edinburgh/

http://www.wild-scotland.org.uk/where-to-watch-wildlife/scottish-regions/edinburgh-lothians-scottish-borders/

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/five-best-wildlife-spots-to-explore-around-edinburgh-and-the-lothians-1-4757922

https://ww2.rspb.org.uk/about-the-rspb/at-home-and-abroad/scotland/edinburgh/wildlife.aspx

I shall call Greta's handlers and speech writers and let them know the climate emergency is over because you have spotted some foxes on Great Junction Street! Ironically you mention wild life in the Lothians and Borders, areas that are very green and pleasant with low populations - Your kind of making my point for me!

[Cataplana]

I shall call Greta's handlers and speech writers and let them know the climate emergency is over because you have spotted some foxes on Great Junction Street! Ironically you mention wild life in the Lothians and Borders, areas that are very green and pleasant with low populations - Your kind of making my point for me!

Do urban foxes even count as wildlife?

[WeeRussell]

George Sq 2pm

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/73167846_2977530615593596_4956705616102948864_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQnAV5ZeMwmd3Og8UO7ojdsOhf87MzmBbQ0R5JVfVfc nnHukMWINgZdo0u5tn4SV-OE&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=bd169f29f73f26e720296d147e541d6d&oe=5E16F29D


get they lion rampants away tae.. :)

Do you say that because they're 'royal banners' C&R? Just checking as I wasn't previously aware of any anti-lion rampant sentiment and don't really know the history!

:aok:

[cabbageandribs1875]

anyone saw this video before, eck salmond is there so it must have been a few years ago, i do hope the new speaker has learnt some ******* manners since, he was a right angry pwick there, to$$er

https://twitter.com/indyNurseBrian/status/828766690121043973?fbclid=IwAR27qx4IOzE6ChDICpINuc uxUnwXFvdLW95yZjqQowv3MuxqmzyeraIx9es

[cabbageandribs1875]

Do you say that because they're 'royal banners' C&R? Just checking as I wasn't previously aware of any anti-lion rampant sentiment and don't really know the history!

:aok:


yup, personally i'd rather see less of them :)

[cabbageandribs1875]

now this is a particularly nasty piece, labour candidate for edinburgh south west,Frances Hoole, comes out with this p@sh then demands joanna cherry tells people not to abuse HER,for being abusive, if she didn't perceive it as abusive she should have left it then surely ? :rolleyes: utter freakin imbecile
https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-letter-to-the-jo-cox-foundation/?fbclid=IwAR0n9D9uw5dPd0PyAdwbrb6qGxlc1NZL78-YKvgNfxNShK72dQExg94rKx8
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/hoole1-1.jpg


look forward to the public thoughts of the jo cox foundation, and of course the scottish MSM printing this story



Labour have now terfed the cillit banger from standing, credit where it's due :agree: plenty free time for her to bang whatever/whoever she wants now



unfortunately the tories think it suitable to select this one

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/1014569/conservative-councillor-who-called-nicola-sturgeon-a-drooling-hag-to-run-in-fife-as-candidate-in-general-election/ (https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/1014569/conservative-councillor-who-called-nicola-sturgeon-a-drooling-hag-to-run-in-fife-as-candidate-in-general-election/)

A Fife Conservative councillor removed from the teaching register after calling Nicola Sturgeon a “drooling hag” has been selected as a General Election candidate.
Kathleen Leslie, councillor for Burntisland, Kinghorn and Western Kirkcaldy, will stand for the Scottish Conservatives in the Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath constituency.
The selection has been branded “beyond belief” by the SNP, with a spokesperson saying he could not understand why the Conservatives thought she was a suitable candidate.

i'd be fair pizzed if my taxes went towards a salary for this one

[WeeRussell]

yup, personally i'd rather see less of them :)

:aok:

[cabbageandribs1875]

interesting https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/the-northerner/2015/may/14/thousands-sign-petition-calling-for-north-of-england-to-be-part-of-scotland?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR0_JNmCPIo6wMtgp4QOW09VzM1omxuw4I3axi8tn R1M_EiC1ktAoVC4MbI :greengrin:greengrin


More than 12,000 people have signed a petition (https://www.change.org/p/the-uk-government-allow-the-north-of-england-to-secede-from-the-uk-and-join-scotland) demanding the north of England break away from the “London-centric south” and join a new Scotland.
The petition says the northern English cities “feel far greater affinity with their Scottish counterparts such as Glasgow and Edinburgh than with the ideologies of the London-centric south” and demands secession from the UK.


they ken the score ;)

[DaveF]

interesting https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/the-northerner/2015/may/14/thousands-sign-petition-calling-for-north-of-england-to-be-part-of-scotland?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR0_JNmCPIo6wMtgp4QOW09VzM1omxuw4I3axi8tn R1M_EiC1ktAoVC4MbI :greengrin:greengrin


More than 12,000 people have signed a petition (https://www.change.org/p/the-uk-government-allow-the-north-of-england-to-secede-from-the-uk-and-join-scotland) demanding the north of England break away from the “London-centric south” and join a new Scotland.
The petition says the northern English cities “feel far greater affinity with their Scottish counterparts such as Glasgow and Edinburgh than with the ideologies of the London-centric south” and demands secession from the UK.


they ken the score ;)

That must be years old as it mentions Osborne as an MP!

[cabbageandribs1875]

That must be years old as it mentions Osborne as an MP!


i really REALLY must start reading the dates of articles put up on freakin facebook.......2015 :doh:

[jonty]

i really REALLY must start reading the dates of articles put up on freakin facebook.......2015 :doh:

Hadrian was a bit before 2015 and he had the same idea.....

[cabbageandribs1875]

Hadrian was a bit before 2015 and he had the same idea.....



it is quite funny reading lots of views from down south desperate to "build that wall" again, not realising they would give us Northumberland, and we would gain another airport...newcastle international :greengrin


from a map it looks like newcastle upon tyne as well :)

[G B Young]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sturgeons-destruction-of-memos-condemned-7mffgf7th

Wonder if this might become an issue in the forthcoming Salmond court case.

[StevieC]

it is quite funny reading lots of views from down south desperate to "build that wall" again, not realising they would give us Northumberland, and we would gain another airport...newcastle international :greengrin

from a map it looks like newcastle upon tyne as well :)

Yes, Newcastle would be included. It linked up with the Tyne round about Scotswood and followed it down to Wallsend (end of the wall).

[Fife-Hibee]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sturgeons-destruction-of-memos-condemned-7mffgf7th

Wonder if this might become an issue in the forthcoming Salmond court case.

It won't. Just politicizing at it's worst. They know the SNP haven't broken any rules here. But they'll stir up a report against them anyway and will ensure that it doesn't reach it's throw out conclusion until after the general election is over.

[lapsedhibee]

Wallsend (end of the wall).

Ah. :lightbulbmoment::aok:

[Smartie]

Ah. :lightbulbmoment::aok:

I just looked up Wallsend on Wikipedia to find out more about this - it seems that in some places they have signs in both English and Latin as a nod to the Roman heritage in that area.

[StevieC]

I just looked up Wallsend on Wikipedia to find out more about this

Did it mention that Alan Shearer played for Wallsend :wink:

Maybe his one handed goal celebration was a salute to his Roman heritage?
22691

[StevieC]

Ah. :idea: :aok:

My family roots are Newcastle based, so I know a little bit. There is a lot of Roman history in the area, and the museums and archaelogical digs along Hadrians wall make a really interesting visit. Took my kids there when they had a Primary school project about Roman times, and it really helped them.
Lots of place names along the route of the wall have Roman connotations such as Wallsend, Heddon-on-the-wall, Corbridge, Vindolanda, etc., it's steeped in Roman history due to forts and barracks being based in the area.

[Moulin Yarns]

From Pilot Beer on twitter


Under the proposed Scottish Deposit Return Scheme anyone returning empty cans will be able to claim a 20p deposit back, so given an empty can costs us about 9p we’ll make a much better margin taking them straight to Tescos rather than filling them and selling them to you chumps.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ignore the fact she is a jambo for a minute. Eilidh Doyle on twitter

The arrival of the baby box has been more exciting than any kit drop. I've always been a very proud Scot but it's moments like these when I'm even more grateful to call this place home 💙🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 https://t.co/atBkbX5rsB

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Ignore the fact she is a jambo for a minute. Eilidh Doyle on twitter

The arrival of the baby box has been more exciting than any kit drop. I've always been a very proud Scot but it's moments like these when I'm even more grateful to call this place home 💙🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 https://t.co/atBkbX5rsB

The final tweet re the mince pie is hilarious! ☺

[CloudSquall]

Ignore the fact she is a jambo for a minute. Eilidh Doyle on twitter

The arrival of the baby box has been more exciting than any kit drop. I've always been a very proud Scot but it's moments like these when I'm even more grateful to call this place home 💙🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 https://t.co/atBkbX5rsB

Never would guess she was a unionist with the "very proud Scot but" line :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191218/3204b045878ead9b035b40c918523410.jpg

Wonder what the plan is after July? Close it down or carry on pumping public money into it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191218/3204b045878ead9b035b40c918523410.jpg

Wonder what the plan is after July? Close it down or carry on pumping public money into it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Order an enquiry in to the whole debacle?

[Moulin Yarns]

How dare they :wink:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50841814


(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50841814)

[Ozyhibby]

How dare they :wink:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50841814


(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50841814)

Hopefully the SNP are smart enough to put this out to tender again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Hopefully the SNP are smart enough to put this out to tender again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because they made such a good job of awarding this contract?

[Moulin Yarns]

Because they made such a good job of awarding this contract?

Anyone who has been involved with awarding public sector contracts will know the hoops that have to be leapt through if you want to award the contract to anyone but the lowest tender.

[marinello59]

Anyone who has been involved with awarding public sector contracts will know the hoops that have to be leapt through if you want to award the contract to anyone but the lowest tender.

So not their fault but if it had worked out well FaceBook would have been full of smug ‘getting on with the day job’ posts. The SNP has to accept some criticism for this.

[Mibbes Aye]

Anyone who has been involved with awarding public sector contracts will know the hoops that have to be leapt through if you want to award the contract to anyone but the lowest tender.

That's not written in stone and the legislation has changed in recent years.

Local authorities always had scope in their standing orders to find a balance between price and quality (though financial pressures like the council tax freeze exacerbated a shift to price alone). Nevertheless, contract awards could be as much as 40% quality as opposed to 60% price, though they were rare.

When you do the actual analysis (and I have, repeatedly), the difference between 70/30 price/quality and 80/20 price/ quality is absolutely marginal. With the added factor that the 'quality' evaluation is undertaken by local government officers with sometimes spurious skills to undertake such a task.

It isn't really any different at Scottish Government level.

[Ozyhibby]

Surely this contract has worked the way it should? Given that any contract awarded carries some risk it appears that by inserting break clauses the SG has enabled itself to get out of the contract once it realised the contractor was not delivering? Seems like the SG has done well on this occasion.
Hopefully the contracts for building the hospitals have similar safeguards.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[danhibees1875]

Are ScotRail really that bad to warrant cutting the contract short and having to find someone else to come in and start from scratch?

I had 1 rubbish experience with ScotRail recently where I was delayed for 5 hours from Aberdeen to Edinburgh, which wasn't overly their fault although I think they could have handled it a bit better (probably just following procedure though). I've had a handful of minor delays outwith their control as well which can be frustrating. Generally though I would say that they've provided me with on time train services. Although I don't use them for my commute or all that frequently so others may be better placed to comment.

I found some stats on the Office of Rail and Road website which compares providers throughout the UK and ScotRail seems to do quite well when compared to other providers. 94.2% of train journeys arrive within 10 minutes of the intended time.

These seem to be generally good compared to other providers, but I wonder how they stack up against European providers. But at that point it sounds like it's more of a problem with the infrastructure in place rather than the service provider.

[Ozyhibby]

I take it back. This is really good news. I thought we would be stuck with it.
https://news.stv.tv/west-central/buyer-found-for-loss-making-prestwick-airport/?top&amp&top=&__twitter_impression=true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

I take it back. This is really good news. I thought we would be stuck with it.
https://news.stv.tv/west-central/buyer-found-for-loss-making-prestwick-airport/?top&amp&top=&__twitter_impression=true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Saved the jobs and the site as a going concern.

Alternatively, the Scottish government could have left it to, "the market", with all the associated job losses. Something that Thatcher would have done.

Let's hope the preferred bidder can make a go of it.

[Ozyhibby]

Saved the jobs and the site as a going concern.

Alternatively, the Scottish government could have left it to, "the market", with all the associated job losses. Something that Thatcher would have done.

Let's hope the preferred bidder can make a go of it.

Won’t be able to say it’s worth it until all the costs have been added up. If it works out at £1m a job then not really. Will have to wait and see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Won’t be able to say it’s worth it until all the costs have been added up. If it works out at £1m a job then not really. Will have to wait and see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:agree:

[ronaldo7]

Won’t be able to say it’s worth it until all the costs have been added up. If it works out at £1m a job then not really. Will have to wait and see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

£1 million a job, something like trident then. 😆

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200109/e84edcf6ad6631ba2711e702fcd7f681.jpg

In Scotland the NHS are treating 88% within 4 hours yet yesterday Tory after Tory stood up at Scottish questions and accused the SNP of failing Scotland’s NHS. Campaigns based on such flimsy evidence have a very limited shelf life and it’s why they are losing so badly in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200109/e84edcf6ad6631ba2711e702fcd7f681.jpg

In Scotland the NHS are treating 88% within 4 hours yet yesterday Tory after Tory stood up at Scottish questions and accused the SNP of failing Scotland’s NHS. Campaigns based on such flimsy evidence have a very limited shelf life and it’s why they are losing so badly in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All because of the way the BBC report the waiting times.


https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-51022054?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15785818821315&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s


0.7% of patients make the headlines.

Yet the number of patients seen within the 4 hours target has not been as low in the last 12 years.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200109/e84edcf6ad6631ba2711e702fcd7f681.jpg

In Scotland the NHS are treating 88% within 4 hours yet yesterday Tory after Tory stood up at Scottish questions and accused the SNP of failing Scotland’s NHS. Campaigns based on such flimsy evidence have a very limited shelf life and it’s why they are losing so badly in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain that you can't compare apples to......erm......apples.

[Moulin Yarns]

As the Scottish Government is blamed for everything that is wrong with the NHS maybe some will be along soon to explain this :wink:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-51121315

[Mibbes Aye]

As the Scottish Government is blamed for everything that is wrong with the NHS maybe some will be along soon to explain this :wink:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-51121315

In which universe, on which world, do you seriously think that finding anything other than good levels of cleanliness in a hospital for children is the bare acceptable!

It's a children's hospital FFS, it should be absolutely clean, all the time, whenever inspectors choose to drop in. Anything less is a failure. Being clean isn't praiseworthy, it's something we should expect as a norm!

[Smartie]

In which universe, on which world, do you seriously think that finding anything other than good levels of cleanliness in a hospital for children is the bare acceptable!

It's a children's hospital FFS, it should be absolutely clean, all the time, whenever inspectors choose to drop in. Anything less is a failure. Being clean isn't praiseworthy, it's something we should expect as a norm!

I speak as someone in favour of independence, but "hospital is adequately clean" is a story you'd imagine even the National would blush at publishing.

[Moulin Yarns]

In which universe, on which world, do you seriously think that finding anything other than good levels of cleanliness in a hospital for children is the bare acceptable!

It's a children's hospital FFS, it should be absolutely clean, all the time, whenever inspectors choose to drop in. Anything less is a failure. Being clean isn't praiseworthy, it's something we should expect as a norm!

OK, let's turn it on its head. Who do you think the BBC would be holding responsible if a bloody dressing had been found?

[Mibbes Aye]

OK, let's turn it on its head. Who do you think the BBC would be holding responsible if a bloody dressing had been found?

Come on!

You would be better-suited acknowledging the response to your original post. And maybe answering it.

Isn't a children's hospital being inspected and found to be clean simply the barest level of acceptable?

[lord bunberry]

Come on!

You would be better-suited acknowledging the response to your original post. And maybe answering it.

Isn't a children's hospital being inspected and found to be clean simply the barest level of acceptable?
In this day and age that’s a win :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

In this day and age that’s a win :greengrin

Ain’t that the truth :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Ain’t that the truth :greengrin
Oh it’s you. Where were you on the last day in Cape Town? We were all waiting for a summary :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Oh it’s you. Where were you on the last day in Cape Town? We were all waiting for a summary :greengrin

:greengrin

I know. Mea culpa.

I thought the recent cricket, England-SA and Aus-NZ has been sublime, let alone the limited overs between Aus and Ind but I was posted missing for most of it, partly through being abroad on holiday and partly through carrying a horrible, stinking lurgy (my sense is that many, many people have had a really bad spell of it this winter).

Anyway, normal service will be resumed. We had better stop talking about Test cricket on a thread like this though. I don’t think anyone has noticed yet but best we take it back to our ‘safe place’ on the Other Sports forum :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

:greengrin

I know. Mea culpa.

I thought the recent cricket, England-SA and Aus-NZ has been sublime, let alone the limited overs between Aus and Ind but I was posted missing for most of it, partly through being abroad on holiday and partly through carrying a horrible, stinking lurgy (my sense is that many, many people have had a really bad spell of it this winter).

Anyway, normal service will be resumed. We had better stop talking about Test cricket on a thread like this though. I don’t think anyone has noticed yet but best we take it back to our ‘safe place’ on the Other Sports forum :greengrin
:not worth

[JeMeSouviens]

:greengrin

I know. Mea culpa.

I thought the recent cricket, England-SA and Aus-NZ has been sublime, let alone the limited overs between Aus and Ind but I was posted missing for most of it, partly through being abroad on holiday and partly through carrying a horrible, stinking lurgy (my sense is that many, many people have had a really bad spell of it this winter).

Anyway, normal service will be resumed. We had better stop talking about Test cricket on a thread like this though. I don’t think anyone has noticed yet but best we take it back to our ‘safe place’ on the Other Sports forum :greengrin

Eng 61/0 at lunch on day of test #3 - slow pitch but early signs of turn - good toss to win!

:offski:

[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18169108.nicola-sturgeon-asked-consider-position-msp-john-mason-claim-will-not-speak-unionists/

Oh dear.

Is this what civic nationalism really means? :greengrin

The angry 45 refusing to represent the 55?

[Smartie]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18169108.nicola-sturgeon-asked-consider-position-msp-john-mason-claim-will-not-speak-unionists/

Oh dear.

Is this what civic nationalism really means? :greengrin

The angry 45 refusing to represent the 55?

It's a poor tweet and a poor position for any politician to take. They need to represent all constituents with appropriate candour in spite of political differences. This sort of approach hands the moral high ground to the opposition.

That said, the abrasive and confrontational stance being taken by our far right English nationalist PM's party makes it harder than ever to compromise, find middle ground and work towards a greater good rather than stand and fight.

I sense we might have slightly worrying times ahead.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's a poor tweet and a poor position for any politician to take. They need to represent all constituents with appropriate candour in spite of political differences. This sort of approach hands the moral high ground to the opposition.

That said, the abrasive and confrontational stance being taken by our far right English nationalist PM's party makes it harder than ever to compromise, find middle ground and work towards a greater good rather than stand and fight.

I sense we might have slightly worrying times ahead.

I fully agree with you, it's not pretty.

[CloudSquall]

The worst of it is giving someone like Annie no surrender, 1690, follow follow, staunch loyal, I'll follow on to Dublin Wells the opportunity to take the higher ground.

[Ozyhibby]

Am I the only person who thinks this is just a poorly worded tweet?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200119/a23a62081770febe0de6e3ff5ac90d67.png

If he had said ‘on issues such as ‘ instead of ‘who want’ it would have been fine. The sentence above makes it clear he will represent every constituent. The point he appears to be making is that he can’t support some of the views of some of his constituents. That’s perfectly normal.


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[lapsedhibee]

Am I the only person who thinks this is just a poorly worded tweet?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200119/a23a62081770febe0de6e3ff5ac90d67.png

If he had said ‘on issues such as ‘ instead of ‘who want’ it would have been fine. The sentence above makes it clear he will represent every constituent. The point he appears to be making is that he can’t support some of the views of some of his constituents. That’s perfectly normal.

:agree:

[Just Alf]

Am I the only person who thinks this is just a poorly worded tweet?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200119/a23a62081770febe0de6e3ff5ac90d67.png

If he had said ‘on issues such as ‘ instead of ‘who want’ it would have been fine. The sentence above makes it clear he will represent every constituent. The point he appears to be making is that he can’t support some of the views of some of his constituents. That’s perfectly normal.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's how I see it as well, I remember the angst being expressed during the Brexit debates when Scottish Tories voted along party lines rather than with the majority of the Electorate that voted remain. No one thought they should be chucked out, just that it should be remembered at the next election... And that should be the case here if his constituents feel strongly enough.

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[allmodcons]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18169108.nicola-sturgeon-asked-consider-position-msp-john-mason-claim-will-not-speak-unionists/

Oh dear.

Is this what civic nationalism really means? :greengrin

The angry 45 refusing to represent the 55?

Much ado about nothing.

He clearly states that he is happy to "represent every constituent" on issues such as housing, etc but will not speak up for constituents on issues he fundamentally opposes.

If a bigot, for that is what they are, has a housing issue he's happy to deal with the matter. If the bigot wants him to support Orange Order marches he will not speak up for him. What is wrong with that?

My MP is Douglas Ross. As one of his constituents, do you think he'll "speak up for me" if a write to him asking him to convey my support for another Independence Referendum in the House of Commons?

[Cataplana]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200109/e84edcf6ad6631ba2711e702fcd7f681.jpg

In Scotland the NHS are treating 88% within 4 hours yet yesterday Tory after Tory stood up at Scottish questions and accused the SNP of failing Scotland’s NHS. Campaigns based on such flimsy evidence have a very limited shelf life and it’s why they are losing so badly in Scotland.


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As far as I'm aware, the SNP keeps its nose out of English matters at Westminster. We have a parliament in Holyrood, and it's poor form for the Tories to be getting involved by proxy.

[Steven79]

If anybody is free on the 1st of Feb before the St Mirren then feel free to join us at the Scottish Parliament.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1472387349592630/

[speedy_gonzales]

Scotland Route Railway - best results for passenger survey (https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/research-publications/rail-research/?q=&p=0&is_v=1)

Folk crow on about health and education here so I'm gonna shoehorn in some trainspotting material (non-Irvine Welsh).

The latest Rail Passenger Survey has scored Scotland Route as the highest in the country with passenger satisfaction (@89%).

Now this may be due to the close integration with Transport Scotland and the alliance between Scotrail & Network Rail(Scotland).
It may be due to the fact we only have one main franchise up here with little competition over similar routes.
It might be because you lucky devils have the most dedicated rail staff in the land.
It might just be because of the SNP!

[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland Route Railway - best results for passenger survey (https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/research-publications/rail-research/?q=&p=0&is_v=1)

Folk crow on about health and education here so I'm gonna shoehorn in some trainspotting material (non-Irvine Welsh).

The latest Rail Passenger Survey has scored Scotland Route as the highest in the country with passenger satisfaction (@89%).

Now this may be due to the close integration with Transport Scotland and the alliance between Scotrail & Network Rail(Scotland).
It may be due to the fact we only have one main franchise up here with little competition over similar routes.
It might be because you lucky devils have the most dedicated rail staff in the land.
It might just be because of the SNP!

Does your 2nd last sentence include a certain poster on here?? 🤔😁

[Mibbes Aye]

Scotland Route Railway - best results for passenger survey (https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/research-publications/rail-research/?q=&p=0&is_v=1)

Folk crow on about health and education here so I'm gonna shoehorn in some trainspotting material (non-Irvine Welsh).

The latest Rail Passenger Survey has scored Scotland Route as the highest in the country with passenger satisfaction (@89%).

Now this may be due to the close integration with Transport Scotland and the alliance between Scotrail & Network Rail(Scotland).
It may be due to the fact we only have one main franchise up here with little competition over similar routes.
It might be because you lucky devils have the most dedicated rail staff in the land.
It might just be because of the SNP!

I use the network a lot through work and leisure. I am not sure how much it is to do with the SNP and how much was obvious cost/benefit analysis :greengrin

On the whole, Scotrail and Transport Scotland do a decent job. And I imagine it is not an easy job a lot of the time.

While no Nat, I would applaud them for capital investment in bringing lines back to life, that is laudable. But, as has been shown, simply obvious maths - there was a market for Bathgate-Airdrie and Edinburgh-Tweedbank.

Upside is that the transport infrastructure is improving, albeit painfully slowly. The Borders Railway has been a cattle pen at commuter times since it was introduced. The delays with the new and fast trains between Glasgow-Edinburgh exacerbated that. It sounds like it will be fixed and that will create capacity in the system. Fingers crossed.

[speedy_gonzales]

Does your 2nd last sentence include a certain poster on here?? 🤔😁

I couldn't possibly say.
There's a few railway sleepers (pun intended) on this forum.

[Bristolhibby]

As far as I'm aware, the SNP keeps its nose out of English matters at Westminster. We have a parliament in Holyrood, and it's poor form for the Tories to be getting involved by proxy.

This. If Bozo has an issue with the SNP about devolved matters get his cronies in Holyrood to bring it up.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/nhs-lothian-chairman-resigns-over-fundamental-differences-health-secretary-jeane-freeman-1380836

Heads had to roll.


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[RyeSloan]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/nhs-lothian-chairman-resigns-over-fundamental-differences-health-secretary-jeane-freeman-1380836

Heads had to roll.


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Good BBC article here that describes what ‘special measures’ are and how the system in Scotland is actually slightly different from the English special measures process.

The scale is 1-5 with 5 the worst and 3 indicating problems are arising that need specific support / addressing.

Interestingly it transpires that over a third of Scotland’s health boards are currently at 3 or above. And I assume the resignation in the EEN article is suggesting that Lothian is going to higher in the scale.

[URL]https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50473342[\URL]

[Ozyhibby]

Interesting slant on what happened. BBC manages to make the criticism of the government for sacking this guy the main story.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-51340314?__twitter_impression=true

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[Mibbes Aye]

Interesting slant on what happened. BBC manages to make the criticism of the government for sacking this guy the main story.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-51340314?__twitter_impression=true

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Putting that to one side, most of the public probably won't know the dynamics that operate within health boards. While Brian Houston was chairman, it is not a role that sees him responsible for day-to-day decision-making. That sits with the chief executive, who has announced his retirement in the last couple of weeks.

It is a very rough analogy but NHS chairs are probably similar to Rod Petrie when Leeann Dempster was appointed. They have a formal role but the chief exec is running the ship (and I know the Petrie-haters wont accept that but it is true :na na:).

My take on it is that the Cabinet post is a poisoned chalice and would be awful regardless of your party affiliation. Sturgeon used it as a stepping stone but set expectations that would never be realised. Robison simply wasn't competent to do it. Freeman is very chippy and Brian Houston won't be the first non-exec or clinician at health board level she alienates.

[RyeSloan]

Interesting slant on what happened. BBC manages to make the criticism of the government for sacking this guy the main story.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-51340314?__twitter_impression=true

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He wasn’t sacked m, he resigned.

In his resignation he highlights the fact that some sections of the SG have been busy laying down blame on him and his organisation for its troubles...ahead of a full enquiry into the most recent and high profile of those. Blame before facts if you want.

He then alleges that he has repeatedly highlighted issues with NHS Lothian, including the fact that it faces substantial demographic challenge while, apparently, being overlooked for additional funding that has gone elsewhere. Funding that he has repeatedly asked for to help meet the challenges flagged.

So to me, absolutely the story is about what he has to say and why he has resigned. What else would you expect it to be about considering the rather less than in-depth response from the SG on the matter?

[Mibbes Aye]

He wasn’t sacked m, he resigned.

In his resignation he highlights the fact that some sections of the SG have been busy laying down blame on him and his organisation for its troubles...ahead of a full enquiry into the most recent and high profile of those. Blame before facts if you want.

He then alleges that he has repeatedly highlighted issues with NHS Lothian, including the fact that it faces substantial demographic challenge while, apparently, being overlooked for additional funding that has gone elsewhere. Funding that he has repeatedly asked for to help meet the challenges flagged.

So to me, absolutely the story is about what he has to say and why he has resigned. What else would you expect it to be about considering the rather less than in-depth response from the SG on the matter?

Funding for the territorial health boards is settled through a formula called NRAC. I am not commenting on how equitable NRAC is but for many years NHS Lothian have said it is unbalanced and doesn't represent equity for the Lothian population.

[Future17]

Derek Mackay resigns over allegations he sent inappropriate messages to a 16 year old.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

[JeMeSouviens]

Derek Mackay resigns over allegations he sent inappropriate messages to a 16 year old.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

I don’t think they’re allegations. He’s apologised and resigned.

[heretoday]

Naturally The Sun waited until today to release the story.
Budget day.

[Slavers]

Naturally The Sun waited until today to release the story.
Budget day.

Makes sense does it not, or would you rather they did not run with the story?

[Ozyhibby]

Naturally The Sun waited until today to release the story.
Budget day.

There is no fault with the press here. He gave them the ammunition. He has to go and he should be resigning fully from the parliament as well.


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[Hibrandenburg]

There is no fault with the press here. He gave them the ammunition. He has to go and he should be resigning fully from the parliament as well.


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No 2 ways about it. All eyes on the reaction of the SNP now.

[Pretty Boy]

Is the age of consent for same sex relationships in Scotland in line with heterosexual couples?

Absolutely no defence of MacKay from me, he's been an idiot and there is clearly an attempt to use his position as an influencing factor, but there seems to be an undertone within the reporting suggesting he is attempting to engage in paedophilia or hebephillia which isn't the case.

The facts alone with regards to the attempted manipulation and, allegedly unsolicited, flirting should be enough to go on without attempting to add a darker angle.

[JeMeSouviens]

Is the age of consent for same sex relationships in Scotland in line with heterosexual couples?

Absolutely no defence of MacKay from me, he's been an idiot and there is clearly an attempt to use his position as an influencing factor, but there seems to be an undertone within the reporting suggesting he is attempting to engage in paedophilia or hebephillia which isn't the case.

The facts alone with regards to the attempted manipulation and, allegedly unsolicited, flirting should be enough to go on without attempting to add a darker angle.

Yes, it's 16 for all. Agree with the rest of your post.

[JeMeSouviens]

However, although the age of consent is 16, there is also this. It's doubtful that Mackay fits the fairly narrow definition of "position of trust" although perhaps he should? That's a separate thread I think ...



5.2 In addition, sections 42-45 of the 2009 Act provide that an adult who engages in sexual activity with a child under the age of 18 in respect of whom they are in a ‘position of trust’ also commits an offence.

5.3 The position of trust offence reflects the fact that, while the ‘age of consent’ is 16, adults who are in a position where they have particular power, influence or control over a child should not engage in sexual activity with them, irrespective of whether they have attained the age of consent as doing so amounts to a breach of a position of authority and trust.

5.4 The 2009 Act defines a ‘position of trust’ for the purposes of the offence as including those who look after children in a range of institutional settings, including schools, hospitals and residential establishments such as care homes or young offenders’ institutions. It also provides that a ‘position of trust’ exists if a person lives with a child and has or had any parental responsibilities or rights in respect of that child, or treats the child as a child of their family.

[lapsedhibee]

Is the age of consent for same sex relationships in Scotland in line with heterosexual couples?

Absolutely no defence of MacKay from me, he's been an idiot and there is clearly an attempt to use his position as an influencing factor, but there seems to be an undertone within the reporting suggesting he is attempting to engage in paedophilia or hebephillia which isn't the case.

The facts alone with regards to the attempted manipulation and, allegedly unsolicited, flirting should be enough to go on without attempting to add a darker angle.

:agree:

[Ozyhibby]

However, although the age of consent is 16, there is also this. It's doubtful that Mackay fits the fairly narrow definition of "position of trust" although perhaps he should? That's a separate thread I think ...

A position of authority definitely though. He’s a govt minister. SNP need to act decisively here and ask him to resign from Parliament.


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[lapsedhibee]

A position of authority definitely though. He’s a govt minister. SNP need to act decisively here and ask him to resign from Parliament.

Trust and authority are wildly different things. SNP can throw him out of the government and the party but it's up to him to decide whether to resign as an MSP.

[Bristolhibby]

A position of authority definitely though. He’s a govt minister. SNP need to act decisively here and ask him to resign from Parliament.


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I see where you are going but that in itself is a can of worms.

Teacher v Pupil = jail
Lecturer v Student = ?
Randy Politician v 16 year old (regardless of sex) = no crime.

I admit, massive error of judgement and for the good of the party and the cause he should resign as a MSP to prevent mud being slung. But factually, as it’s read today. Legally done nothing wrong.

J

[Hibbyradge]

I see where you are going but that in itself is a can of worms.

Teacher v Pupil = jail
Lecturer v Student = ?
Randy Politician v 16 year old (regardless of sex) = no crime.

I admit, massive error of judgement and for the good of the party and the cause he should resign as a MSP to prevent mud being slung. But factually, as it’s read today. Legally done nothing wrong.

J

I don't think anyone has been jailed for sending flirting text messages. Sacked, certainly, but not jailed.

[ronaldo7]

There is no fault with the press here. He gave them the ammunition. He has to go and he should be resigning fully from the parliament as well.


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Correct. He needs to go.

[Mr Grieves]

The SNP need to remove the whip and he should resign.

[Ozyhibby]

Trust and authority are wildly different things. SNP can throw him out of the government and the party but it's up to him to decide whether to resign as an MSP.

Party whip should be withdrawn though.


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[G B Young]

It never ceases to baffle me why people in high profile positions like his can think that something like this won't come to light. I see we're not talking about a couple of texts here (wrong as that would be) but hundreds of texts over a long period of time. There's a screw loose there.

Grim timing for the SNP with Salmond trial looming large.

[lapsedhibee]

Party whip should be withdrawn though.


Maybe so, but whether he continues in his job as an MSP should, in a representative democracy, be chiefly a matter for his constituents, not his party boss. If his constituents are telling him to resign then he should. Principle of representative democracy more important here than party image, imo.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe so, but whether he continues in his job as an MSP should, in a representative democracy, be chiefly a matter for his constituents, not his party boss. If his constituents are telling him to resign then he should. Principle of representative democracy more important here than party image, imo.

There is no mechanism for constituents to do that as far as I know. Pretty sur wig his constituents were asked if grooming 16 year olds was acceptable they would say no. He really has to stand down.


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[Smartie]

His behaviour is unacceptable and he must stand down.

16 year olds should not be having to receive attention like that from someone much older, irrespective of gender or age of consent.

GB Young also makes a good point - how did he ever think this wouldn't come to light? Apart from everything else that is wrong with the situation, he has shown questionable decision making ability there.

[lapsedhibee]

Apart from everything else that is wrong with the situation, he has shown questionable decision making ability there.

He certainly has, but I'm more interested in why Joanna Cherry appears to have deleted an old tweet complimenting Mackay on a Burns night speech he gave.

[Peevemor]

He certainly has, but I'm more interested in why Joanna Cherry appears to have deleted an old tweet complimenting Mackay on a Burns night speech he gave.

Maybe she's disgusted?

[lapsedhibee]

Maybe she's disgusted?

Aye, maybe. Strange thing to do imo.

[Ozyhibby]

Right now, this whole thing doesn’t hurt the SNP as they acted quickly to sack him this morning. If the don’t act today and suspend him from the party and withdraw the whip then it will begin to hurt them. It will be seen as accepting his behaviour. He should be gone within the next couple of hours.


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[makaveli1875]

Right now, this whole thing doesn’t hurt the SNP as they acted quickly to sack him this morning. If the don’t act today and suspend him from the party and withdraw the whip then it will begin to hurt them. It will be seen as accepting his behaviour. He should be gone within the next couple of hours.


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Sturgeon has suspended him pending investigation

[Smartie]

Sturgeon has suspended him pending investigation

Which surely has to be the correct outcome?

[JeMeSouviens]

Right now, this whole thing doesn’t hurt the SNP as they acted quickly to sack him this morning. If the don’t act today and suspend him from the party and withdraw the whip then it will begin to hurt them. It will be seen as accepting his behaviour. He should be gone within the next couple of hours.


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NS has just announced both.

[lapsedhibee]

NS has just announced both.

As usual, her logic and tone spot on throughout the answers she gave to Carlaw.

[Ozyhibby]

NS has just announced both.

I never doubted her or the SNP.


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[heretoday]

Makes sense does it not, or would you rather they did not run with the story?

No,I'm suggesting they have an agenda beyond simple moral outrage.
You know what I mean.

[makaveli1875]

Which surely has to be the correct outcome?

Id say so. Not a big admirer of Sturgeon but shes obviously had a shock last night and shes handled it well.

[puff the dragon]

I never doubted her or the SNP.


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SNP cult in full force here.

Like EVERY political party the SNP are full of pervs, as today shows.

The actions Sturgeon and McKay have taken today are going to make it even harder for Sturgeon to survive the dirt the Salmond trial is bound to throw at her.

The exposing of this cult as the horrible individuals they are is long overdue. Today. Was the starter, main course on its way.

[Ozyhibby]

SNP cult in full force here.

Like EVERY political party the SNP are full of pervs, as today shows.

The actions Sturgeon and McKay have taken today are going to make it even harder for Sturgeon to survive the dirt the Salmond trial is bound to throw at her.

The exposing of this cult as the horrible individuals they are is long overdue. Today. Was the starter, main course on its way.

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[Peevemor]

SNP cult in full force here.

Like EVERY political party the SNP are full of pervs, as today shows.

The actions Sturgeon and McKay have taken today are going to make it even harder for Sturgeon to survive the dirt the Salmond trial is bound to throw at her.

The exposing of this cult as the horrible individuals they are is long overdue. Today. Was the starter, main course on its way.

Blimey! Where do you start with this?

[Hibbyradge]

Blimey! Where do you start with this?

You don't.

:troll:

[JeMeSouviens]

SNP cult in full force here.

Like EVERY political party the SNP are full of pervs, as today shows.

The actions Sturgeon and McKay have taken today are going to make it even harder for Sturgeon to survive the dirt the Salmond trial is bound to throw at her.

The exposing of this cult as the horrible individuals they are is long overdue. Today. Was the starter, main course on its way.

Open minded on independence then? :faf:

[Cataplana]

SNP cult in full force here.

Like EVERY political party the SNP are full of pervs, as today shows.

The actions Sturgeon and McKay have taken today are going to make it even harder for Sturgeon to survive the dirt the Salmond trial is bound to throw at her.

The exposing of this cult as the horrible individuals they are is long overdue. Today. Was the starter, main course on its way.

Are you saying that sex (or lack of it) between two consenting adults is a perversion?

Or is it just sex between consulting adults of the same sex that you deem a perversion.

MacKay may be as thick as Tom Kite, but I don't think he broke any laws, legal or moral.

[Future17]

SNP cult in full force here.

Like EVERY political party the SNP are full of pervs, as today shows.

The actions Sturgeon and McKay have taken today are going to make it even harder for Sturgeon to survive the dirt the Salmond trial is bound to throw at her.

The exposing of this cult as the horrible individuals they are is long overdue. Today. Was the starter, main course on its way.

This coming from a poster named after a creature who had a close personal relationship with a young boy, including accepting gifts and going on a cruise.

Hypocrite.

[makaveli1875]

Are you saying that sex (or lack of it) between two consenting adults is a perversion?

Or is it just sex between consulting adults of the same sex that you deem a perversion.

MacKay may be as thick as Tom Kite, but I don't think he broke any laws, legal or moral.

McKay isn't stupid he knew this could ruin his career and his reputation. He obviously didn't care and was prepared to put it all on the line for this guy. If all he did was pay the guy a few compliments and ask him out to dinner it hardly makes him Jimmy Saville. If he'd been sending him pics of his tadger then maybe but if that had been the case it would have been the Headlines this morning.

[JeMeSouviens]

This coming from a poster named after a creature who had a close personal relationship with a young boy, including accepting gifts and going on a cruise.

Hypocrite.

Lolz :top marks

[Ozyhibby]

I strongly suspect that whatever happens in the Salmond trial, unionists are going to end up disappointed as the SNP will move quickly to throw him out the party.


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[Cataplana]

McKay isn't stupid he knew this could ruin his career and his reputation. He obviously didn't care and was prepared to put it all on the line for this guy. If all he did was pay the guy a few compliments and ask him out to dinner it hardly makes him Jimmy Saville. If he'd been sending him pics of his tadger then maybe but if that had been the case it would have been the Headlines this morning.

The point is they were consulting adults. The lad even had the sense to say, "nothing is going to happen."

At the end of the day, McKay should have known how it would play out in the media, and have the political awareness to get out of it.

Question is, who dobbed him in, opponents, or one of his own party?

[Moulin Yarns]

The point is they were consulting adults. The lad even had the sense to say, "nothing is going to happen."

At the end of the day, McKay should have known how it would play out in the media, and have the political awareness to get out of it.

Question is, who dobbed him in, opponents, or one of his own party?

I presume that the boys family saw the ££ signs and sold the story to the Sun.

[JeMeSouviens]

I presume that the boys family saw the ££ signs and sold the story to the Sun.

Or didn't want him to get away with this behaviour but knew it wasn't criminal so went to the Sun to expose him? Or even a bit of both. Who knows?

[Bristolhibby]

SNP cult in full force here.

Like EVERY political party the SNP are full of pervs, as today shows.

The actions Sturgeon and McKay have taken today are going to make it even harder for Sturgeon to survive the dirt the Salmond trial is bound to throw at her.

The exposing of this cult as the horrible individuals they are is long overdue. Today. Was the starter, main course on its way.

You mean every society.

Pervy texts aren’t the preserve of politicians of any party.

In fact, to be truly representative of the population you could argue there needs to be some scandals in Politics.

I’ll just leave that last left field comment.

BTW I’m not sure that the Tories or Labour should throw any mud. Just accept that Political sex scandals happen and that soon the show will be on the other foot. (Jeffery Archer, David Mellor, Ron Davies, Jerry Hayes, Keith Vaz). Not to mention Tory sleaze of the 90s, Cash for Questions, Cash for Honours, etc.

J

[Bristolhibby]

I strongly suspect that whatever happens in the Salmond trial, unionists are going to end up disappointed as the SNP will move quickly to throw him out the party.


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And TBH if found guilty he will resign immediately.

The cause comes first. He knows that.

But let’s see how this trial stands up.

J

[Mantis Toboggan]

Are you saying that sex (or lack of it) between two consenting adults is a perversion?

Or is it just sex between consulting adults of the same sex that you deem a perversion.

MacKay may be as thick as Tom Kite, but I don't think he broke any laws, legal or moral.

Its not great behaviour though is it for someone in his position. Just saying it's not illegal doesnt cut it.

[Peevemor]

Its not great behaviour though is it for someone in his position. Just saying it's not illegal doesnt cut it.

Maybe that's why he's resigned from his position and has been suspended by his party. Just a guess like...

[Cataplana]

Its not great behaviour though is it for someone in his position. Just saying it's not illegal doesnt cut it.

Not at all, the public will still make a moral judgement. Whether it is justified or not doesn't matter, he's in a perceptions based business.

[The Pointer]

The point is they were consulting adults. The lad even had the sense to say, "nothing is going to happen."

At the end of the day, McKay should have known how it would play out in the media, and have the political awareness to get out of it.

Question is, who dobbed him in, opponents, or one of his own party?


Scots Law states 16 and under is a child. Also, what age was the boy when the messaging started?

[Ozyhibby]

It’s just down right creepy behaviour and he deserves to be sacked and should be pressured to stand down as an MSP.


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[Bristolhibby]

Scots Law states 16 and under is a child. Also, what age was the boy when the messaging started?

Is that right? I thought in Scotland (unlike England) you are an adult under the eyes of the law at 16.

The film Sweet Sixteen the point at the end he committed the crime on his 16th birthday.

Age of consent is 16 no?

J

[Hiber-nation]

Kate Forbes did really well, definitely a rising star.

[Future17]

Scots Law states 16 and under is a child. Also, what age was the boy when the messaging started?

That's not really true. Whilst a 16 year old can be defined as a child in certain limited legal contexts, none of them apply in these circumstances.

[lapsedhibee]

Also, what age was the boy when the messaging started?
16.

[heretoday]

I presume that the boys family saw the ££ signs and sold the story to the Sun.

Where The Sun is concerned anything is possible.

The fact is Mackay has been very stupid and has dealt a blow to his party at a sensitive time. The upcoming Salmond case will heap further bad news on top no doubt. There's no getting away from it.

[The Harp Awakes]

Kate Forbes did really well, definitely a rising star.

Yes she did, particularly as she only found out at 8 a.m. she was doing the speech. A Cambridge Graduate and speaks fluent Gaelic. Obviously a smart cookie with some charisma. A potential successor to Nic maybe?

[Logie Green]

Should Derek Mackay's actions be described as a schoolboy error?

[Hiber-nation]

Yes she did, particularly as she only found out at 8 a.m. she was doing the speech. A Cambridge Graduate and speaks fluent Gaelic. Obviously a smart cookie with some charisma. A potential successor to Nic maybe?

Hopefully. One of the problems the SNP have is the lack of a natural successor to Nicola. The media were saying Mackay was a possibility but even before today's revelations I could never have imagined him in that role.

[lapsedhibee]

Hopefully. One of the problems the SNP have is the lack of a natural successor to Nicola. The media were saying Mackay was a possibility but even before today's revelations I could never have imagined him in that role.
:agree: BBC seemed to be laying it on thick earlier about how Mackay was the party's future, and what a disaster this was for the SNP. Almost as if there was some sort of agenda.

[degenerated]

:agree: BBC seemed to be laying it on thick earlier about how Mackay was the party's future, and what a disaster this was for the SNP. Almost as if there was some sort of agenda.I reckon the likely successor will be Joanna Cherry and I think they'll find her a lot more difficult to deal with than Nicola Sturgeon.

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[Ozyhibby]

Hopefully. One of the problems the SNP have is the lack of a natural successor to Nicola. The media were saying Mackay was a possibility but even before today's revelations I could never have imagined him in that role.

I agree. One of the reasons today won’t really hurt the SNP that much (apart from the textbook way they have dealt with it) is that the average man in the street couldn’t pick him in a line out. Strange for someone in such a senior role but because the role has no real tax raising power his budget is really just a list of what he is spending the grant on.


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[RyeSloan]

I agree. One of the reasons today won’t really hurt the SNP that much (apart from the textbook way they have dealt with it) is that the average man in the street couldn’t pick him in a line out. Strange for someone in such a senior role but because the role has no real tax raising power his budget is really just a list of what he is spending the grant on.


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Not entirely true that though is it. Over a third of taxation raised in Scotland is now under the control of the Scottish Government and that’s set to rise to over 50% once the agreed remaining taxes are fully devolved.

That though might not be seen as great news as so far thanks to these changes. Despite raising the rate on the higher bands on income tax and at the same time deploying the ever so cunning fiscal drag anyone earning over £27k is paying more income tax than the rest of the UK but ending up with a SG whose budget is lower than it would have been by a hundred million or two (depending on which figure you take)

In fact the forecast figures in regards to the outlook for how these taxation changes have worked is grim and could run to almost £1bn over 3 years.

Next up we have social security being fully devolved and already a warning from the fiscal commission around the fiscal risks that will expose and of course the slew of new and increased payments already promised.

Scotland also now has the ability to raise debt and / or build reserves something it has been busily doing. Today the reserve was deployed and in previous two budgets debt used. Indeed almost half a billion in debt already before today with that set to rise even further.

And yes of course I know the standard response to all of this is if only we had more power and more control then all would be dandy but to suggest there is no real tax raising powers in Scotland now is incorrect nor is it the case that fiscal responsibility is not already here and so far that’s maybe not so pretty.

[Mon Dieu4]

Scotland also now has the ability to raise debt and / or build reserves something it has been busily doing. Today the reserve was deployed and in previous two budgets debt used. Indeed almost half a billion in debt already before today with that set to rise even further.

And yes of course I know the standard response to all of this is if only we had more power and more control then all would be dandy but to suggest there is no real tax raising powers in Scotland now is incorrect nor is it the case that fiscal responsibility is not already here and so far that’s maybe not so pretty.

How much debt is the UK currently in? Love it when people like to hark on about Scotland having a deficit and would have to borrow etc as if the UK currently have a well run ship with zero debt

[steakbake]

I agree. One of the reasons today won’t really hurt the SNP that much (apart from the textbook way they have dealt with it) is that the average man in the street couldn’t pick him in a line out. Strange for someone in such a senior role but because the role has no real tax raising power his budget is really just a list of what he is spending the grant on.


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I think they'll want to replace Sturgeon sooner than later. There's some decent people on the fringes - Angus Robertson looking for a way back in (Edinburgh Central, maybe?), Kate Forbes who is without doubt one of their smartest and most able and the redoubtable Joanna Cherry.

Creepy stuff by MacKay, but not sad to see him go. Dealt with quickly and decisively, to be fair.

[Cataplana]

As an aside, what is a guy who never got beyond his Highers doing in charge of a country's finances. Intellectual heavy weight he is not.

[Peevemor]

As an aside, what is a guy who never got beyond his Highers doing in charge of a country's finances. Intellectual heavy weight he is not.

There are many reasons why people quit formal education after high school, it doesn't mean they're thick. Whether someone is apt for a specific post is a different story.

[Cataplana]

There are many reasons why people quit formal education after high school, it doesn't mean they're thick. Whether someone is apt for a specific post is a different story.

He was nowhere near bright enough to run a country's finances. Something which appears to be borne out by his stupid indiscretions .

It's all very well saying you'll "give it a right good go" but big jobs like his require someone who is better educated than he is.

I very much doubt it there is a finance minister anywhere less suitable for the job.

[Future17]

As an aside, what is a guy who never got beyond his Highers doing in charge of a country's finances. Intellectual heavy weight he is not.

Wow. There are loads of reasons why someone may choose to forego further education and, in my view, a lack of intellect (or even intelligence) is way down that list.

Alarming bit of prejudice from you there in my humble opinion.

[Cataplana]

Wow. There are loads of reasons why someone may choose to forego further education and, in my view, a lack of intellect (or even intelligence) is way down that list.

Alarming bit of prejudice from you there in my humble opinion.

Sending text messages to a 16 year old boy when you are a government minister doesn't seem very smart to me.

On the second point, my only prejudice is that he does not appear to have been educated to the level required to do his job. There cannot be many finance ministers anywhere who have not finished University.

Don't be alarmed.

[danhibees1875]

Sending text messages to a 16 year old boy when you are a government minister doesn't seem very smart to me.

On the second point, my only prejudice is that he does not appear to have been educated to the level required to do his job. There cannot be many finance ministers anywhere who have not finished University.

Don't be alarmed.

Clever people can do not very clever things.

He seems to have worked his way up the ranks politically quite well, maybe he takes to things quickly and had the desired experience for the job, and so it was decided that the on paper education wasn't as important. I don't remember anyone worrying about it before yesterday. :dunno:

[Smartie]

As an aside, what is a guy who never got beyond his Highers doing in charge of a country's finances. Intellectual heavy weight he is not.

Would you be any happier if he had a 2/2 in Philosophy from Oxford?

There doesn't seem to be any great correlation between qualifications and jobs doled out to politicians as far as I can see.

I have far greater concern over the general decision making ability of someone who thought pursuing a 16 year old boy in this way was a good idea to make any sort of decision whatsoever far less one deciding where the country's money is spent.

[Ozyhibby]

I think they'll want to replace Sturgeon sooner than later. There's some decent people on the fringes - Angus Robertson looking for a way back in (Edinburgh Central, maybe?), Kate Forbes who is without doubt one of their smartest and most able and the redoubtable Joanna Cherry.

Creepy stuff by MacKay, but not sad to see him go. Dealt with quickly and decisively, to be fair.

They would be mad to replace Sturgeon anytime soon. She is an exceptional politician, and has no match in UK politics.


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[Peevemor]

Wow. There are loads of reasons why someone may choose to forego further education and, in my view, a lack of intellect (or even intelligence) is way down that list.

Alarming bit of prejudice from you there in my humble opinion.

Exactly what I was gettting at.


Sending text messages to a 16 year old boy when you are a government minister doesn't seem very smart to me.

On the second point, my only prejudice is that he does not appear to have been educated to the level required to do his job. There cannot be many finance ministers anywhere who have not finished University.

Don't be alarmed.

So 3 years of divinity at St Andrews qualifies you to head up finance?

[Cataplana]

Clever people can do not very clever things.

He seems to have worked his way up the ranks politically quite well, maybe he takes to things quickly and had the desired experience for the job, and so it was decided that the on paper education wasn't as important. I don't remember anyone worrying about it before yesterday. :dunno:

I get the impression he was over promoted. I am merely pointing out that it is unusual for someone without a degree to be in such a high powered job.

To say nobody was worried isn't right either. Political opponents have criticised his budgets, and his lack of training for the job has been highlighted too.

[Cataplana]

Would you be any happier if he had a 2/2 in Philosophy from Oxford?

There doesn't seem to be any great correlation between qualifications and jobs doled out to politicians as far as I can see.

I have far greater concern over the general decision making ability of someone who thought pursuing a 16 year old boy in this way was a good idea to make any sort of decision whatsoever far less one deciding where the country's money is spent.

Plenty thick people have degrees. However, I would expect the finance minister to have some qualification and background in finance.

It doesn't always work that way, but look at how much better Jean Freeman is than her predecessor. It might have something to do with the fact that, as an ex nurse, she understands health care.

RBS had a board of directors who didn't have a banking exam between them: Hearts has a board of directors who have no project management experience. RBS went tits up and Hearts have an unfinished stand. I think there may be a connection.

[danhibees1875]

I get the impression he was over promoted. I am merely pointing out that it is unusual for someone without a degree to be in such a high powered job.

To say nobody was worried isn't right either. Political opponents have criticised his budgets, and his lack of training for the job has been highlighted too.

"Nowhere near bright enough" and "not an intellectual heavyweight" seemed to go beyond that point of view.

It is indeed unusual for someone to hold such a high position within finance without further education within finance. Doesn't mean his position wasn't justified through experience though.

Ah well, if political opponents criticised his work then he must have been rubbish. :greengrin Tories would say the grass is red if the SNP said it was blue - no one cares that it's green.

[Hibrandenburg]

Plenty thick people have degrees. However, I would expect the finance minister to have some qualification and background in finance.

It doesn't always work that way, but look at how much better Jean Freeman is than her predecessor. It might have something to do with the fact that, as an ex nurse, she understands health care.

RBS had a board of directors who didn't have a banking exam between them: Hearts has a board of directors who have no project management experience. RBS went tits up and Hearts have an unfinished stand. I think there may be a connection.

The Prime Minister of the UK being a prime example of someone being educated far beyond their intelligence.

[Cataplana]

"Nowhere near bright enough" and "not an intellectual heavyweight" seemed to go beyond that point of view.

It is indeed unusual for someone to hold such a high position within finance without further education within finance. Doesn't mean his position wasn't justified through experience though.

Ah well, if political opponents criticised his work then he must have been rubbish. :greengrin Tories would say the grass is red if the SNP said it was blue - no one cares that it's green.

What experience did he have to justify the position? And, what does his "foolishness" tell us about the wisdom of appointing him?

Mock my point about his critics if you want, but you said nobody had raised any concern before yesterday, I suggested that wasn't true.

As for suggesting that the criticisms aren't valid because they are from opponents, it is much the same thing as saying his defenders aren't valid because they are on his side. Which I accept is your point, but it doesn't mean that they aren't right.

He made a monumental mess of things, and I would suggest that was in no small measure due to the fact he was in a position he was not qualified to be in.

I suggest he was nothing more than a mouthpiece and that someone else was doing the work.

[Moulin Yarns]

He was nowhere near bright enough to run a country's finances. Something which appears to be borne out by his stupid indiscretions .

It's all very well saying you'll "give it a right good go" but big jobs like his require someone who is better educated than he is.

I very much doubt it there is a finance minister anywhere less suitable for the job.

What has his indiscretion got to do with his ability to do a particular job?

[Cataplana]

The Prime Minister of the UK being a prime example of someone being educated far beyond their intelligence.

Yes, and Derek MacKay was still out of his depth. He was chasing after a 16 year old, and he thought he wouldn't get caught.

[danhibees1875]

What experience did he have to justify the position? And, what does his "foolishness" tell us about the wisdom of appointing him?

Mock my point about his critics if you want, but you said nobody had raised any concern before yesterday, I suggested that wasn't true.

As for suggesting that the criticisms aren't valid because they are from opponents, it is much the same thing as saying his defenders aren't valid because they are on his side. Which I accept is your point, but it doesn't mean that they aren't right.

He made a monumental mess of things, and I would suggest that was in no small measure due to the fact he was in a position he was not qualified to be in.

I suggest he was nothing more than a mouthpiece and that someone else was doing the work.

I didn't do his interview or appoint him so can't tell you what have him the edge. Maybe he just got the nod above qualified candidates for a laugh. :dunno:

His budgets get criticised by the opposition - that's part of what happens. It's not an indication of anything but parliamentary process. Was there massive outcry about how he is undereducated and not fit for the role? (Genuine question - I've never seen it but it may have happened).

You think he text a 16 year old boy because he was in a job he wasn't qualified for? :confused:

Funnily enough, your last paragraph could well be a factor. He's the face of the finance team - it may well be his communication and team management skills that were more appreciated than his technical accounting knowledge. But that's obviously hypothetical as I've no idea what his skill set is or what he brought to the role - I just wanted to suggest that merely not having the formal qualifications your expect isn't reason alone to write him off for the position.

[Frankhfc]

I think they'll want to replace Sturgeon sooner than later. There's some decent people on the fringes - Angus Robertson looking for a way back in (Edinburgh Central, maybe?), Kate Forbes who is without doubt one of their smartest and most able and the redoubtable Joanna Cherry.

Creepy stuff by MacKay, but not sad to see him go. Dealt with quickly and decisively, to be fair.

Agree with this.

Sturgeon's stock is becoming quite toxic in my opinion as per the Salmond and now Mackay scandals allied with the very foolish decision to declare that a 2020 indy ref would be a definite fothcoming that proved as many had foreseen a non starter. The party is split between the wiser heads who play the long game and the gung ho rasher heads who want to employ direct action and Sturgeon very stupidly allowed herself to be pressured into stating the non starter 2020 ref by the gung ho element.

I think a new leader ushering in a clean broom so to speak is becoming inevitable if independence is to be achieved. Kate Forbes may be the way ahead sooner rather than later.

[Cataplana]

I didn't do his interview or appoint him so can't tell you what have him the edge. Maybe he just got the nod above qualified candidates for a laugh. :dunno:

His budgets get criticised by the opposition - that's part of what happens. It's not an indication of anything but parliamentary process. Was there massive outcry about how he is undereducated and not fit for the role? (Genuine question - I've never seen it but it may have happened).

You think he text a 16 year old boy because he was in a job he wasn't qualified for? :confused:

Funnily enough, your last paragraph could well be a factor. He's the face of the finance team - it may well be his communication and team management skills that were more appreciated than his technical accounting knowledge. But that's obviously hypothetical as I've no idea what his skill set is or what he brought to the role - I just wanted to suggest that merely not having the formal qualifications your expect isn't reason alone to write him off for the position.

There are no formal qualifications for government ministers, and I would be surprised if there were interviews for the job.

The fact that he was so stupid as to do what he did means I would be wary of trusting his judgement. So is his boss.

I never saw him as a good face for the government, he came across a bit like a scout leader, or head boy. It may be this works in favour of the SNP and someone that people can take seriously will get the gig.

I always felt that MacKay was one awkward question away from bursting into tears. I half expected him to start speeches with, "ah've been telt tae say."

A tea boy that got lucky.

[Cataplana]

Agree with this.

Sturgeon's stock is becoming quite toxic in my opinion as per the Salmond and now Mackay scandals allied with the very foolish decision to declare that a 2020 indy ref would be a definite fothcoming that proved as many had foreseen a non starter. The party is split between the wiser heads who play the long game and the gung ho rasher heads who want to employ direct action and Sturgeon very stupidly allowed herself to be pressured into stating the non starter 2020 ref by the gung ho element.

I think a new leader ushering in a clean broom so to speak is becoming inevitable if independence is to be achieved. Kate Forbes may be the way ahead sooner rather than later.

I get the impression there is an internal war within the SNP just now. A referendum this year would be a disaster, and I am much more sympathetic to those who play a long game.

[Frankhfc]

I get the impression there is an internal war within the SNP just now. A referendum this year would be a disaster, and I am much more sympathetic to those who play a long game.

Agreed. There is a wide gulf between those who are patient with cooler heads who see the pragmatic bigger picture and there are those who are extremely restless and much more agressive in style and tactics.

[Cataplana]

Agreed. There is a wide gulf between those who are patient with cooler heads who see the pragmatic bigger picture and there are those who are extremely restless and much more agressive in style and tactics.

This not the time. Let Boris make the case for the Union (or leaving the Union.)

The Braveheart element are off putting to floating voters like me. Waving Catalan flags, and dressing up in Chinese tartan is cringe worthy to say the least.

[Hiber-nation]

There are no formal qualifications for government ministers, and I would be surprised if there were interviews for the job.

The fact that he was so stupid as to do what he did means I would be wary of trusting his judgement. So is his boss.

I never saw him as a good face for the government, he came across a bit like a scout leader, or head boy. It may be this works in favour of the SNP and someone that people can take seriously will get the gig.

I always felt that MacKay was one awkward question away from bursting into tears. I half expected him to start speeches with, "ah've been telt tae say."

A tea boy that got lucky.

I know people who work with him. They have no problem with his knowledge. His delivery and tone is the problem and he knew this himself. Never leader material in a million years, even before all this came out. As mentioned earlier, all this "potential successor" stuff is just media nonsense.

[Moulin Yarns]

There are no formal qualifications for government ministers, and I would be surprised if there were interviews for the job.

The fact that he was so stupid as to do what he did means I would be wary of trusting his judgement. So is his boss.

I never saw him as a good face for the government, he came across a bit like a scout leader, or head boy. It may be this works in favour of the SNP and someone that people can take seriously will get the gig.

I always felt that MacKay was one awkward question away from bursting into tears. I half expected him to start speeches with, "ah've been telt tae say."

A tea boy that got lucky.

Again, what does his poor judgment have to do with his job qualification or ability?

[Frankhfc]

Again, what does his poor judgment have to do with his job qualification or ability?

No disrespect but that reads as an oxymoron. Poor judgement should alone disqualify a person from the position. A minister should demonstrate good judgement, be aware, sharp and focused in on the job in my opinion of course.

[JeMeSouviens]

No disrespect but that reads as an oxymoron. Poor judgement should alone disqualify a person from the position. A minister should demonstrate good judgement, be aware, sharp and focused in on the job in my opinion of course.

I agree notwithstanding the fact that there are numerous examples of successful political leaders who displayed spectacularly poor judgement in their personal lives.

[JeMeSouviens]

Agreed. There is a wide gulf between those who are patient with cooler heads who see the pragmatic bigger picture and there are those who are extremely restless and much more agressive in style and tactics.

I think you're overstating it although the tension is certainly there. You're wrong about NS though. She's playing a long(ish) game while walking the necessary tightrope to keep the SNP together.

[Smartie]

I know people who work with him. They have no problem with his knowledge. His delivery and tone is the problem and he knew this himself. Never leader material in a million years, even before all this came out. As mentioned earlier, all this "potential successor" stuff is just media nonsense.

Nicola Sturgeon once seemed miles from being leadership material but with some hard work she improved.

[grunt]

I get the impression there is an internal war within the SNP just now. Hmm. I wonder how much of this is anti-SNP media and opposition briefing against them and stoking discussion to destabilise the SNP. I realise this makes me sound quite paranoid, but I seem to question everything these days.

[Cataplana]

No disrespect but that reads as an oxymoron. Poor judgement should alone disqualify a person from the position. A minister should demonstrate good judgement, be aware, sharp and focused in on the job in my opinion of course.

I know the SNP are trying to circle the wagons, but they could do worse than listen to their leader, who has basically said the guy isn't fit to do the job.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nicola Sturgeon once seemed miles from being leadership material but with some hard work she improved.

SNP Bad propaganda notwithstanding there was never any doubt about NS' ability and competency. There was a big question mark over how relatable she could be to the public. Agree she put a lot of effort in there.

[Cataplana]

No disrespect but that reads as an oxymoron. Poor judgement should alone disqualify a person from the position. A minister should demonstrate good judgement, be aware, sharp and focused in on the job in my opinion of course.

Woke


Hmm. I wonder how much of this is anti-SNP media and opposition briefing against them and stoking discussion to destabilise the SNP. I realise this makes me sound quite paranoid, but I seem to question everything these days.

It jumped into my mind as well, as the announcement was timed for maximum humiliation. It's just as likely though that it's the SNP knifing each other .


I agree notwithstanding the fact that there are numerous examples of successful political leaders who displayed spectacularly poor judgement in their personal lives.

They tended to make up for it by showing signs of competence in their professional lives. MacKay has never come across as anything more than a yes man with an ability to remember the line he has been fed.

[Moulin Yarns]

No disrespect but that reads as an oxymoron. Poor judgement should alone disqualify a person from the position. A minister should demonstrate good judgement, be aware, sharp and focused in on the job in my opinion of course.

Thanks, so if you get a bit drunk and do something daft you are unfit for any job. I'm surprised unemployment is so low.

[Future17]

Sending text messages to a 16 year old boy when you are a government minister doesn't seem very smart to me.

I would agree, but your position is that there's a direct link between how "smart" someone is and their academic achievements. That suggest you think that, had Derek Mackay spent three years at university, rather than in employment or as an elected official, he would have been less likely to send the text message in question. That's just nonsense in my opinion.

On the wider general point of people requiring experience for their role, I totally agree with you. But experience and formal educational qualifications are two different things. In every organisation I've worked in, I'd take experience over qualifications for senior positions every time.

[JeMeSouviens]

I would agree, but your position is that there's a direct link between how "smart" someone is and their academic achievements. That suggest you think that, had Derek Mackay spent three years at university, rather than in employment or as an elected official, he would have been less likely to send the text message in question. That's just nonsense in my opinion.

On the wider general point of people requiring experience for their role, I totally agree with you. But experience and formal educational qualifications are two different things. In every organisation I've worked in, I'd take experience over qualifications for senior positions every time.

That's interesting. I'd take ability over both every time. I concede it can be hard to measure though.

[Cataplana]

I would agree, but your position is that there's a direct link between how "smart" someone is and their academic achievements. That suggest you think that, had Derek Mackay spent three years at university, rather than in employment or as an elected official, he would have been less likely to send the text message in question. That's just nonsense in my opinion.

On the wider general point of people requiring experience for their role, I totally agree with you. But experience and formal educational qualifications are two different things. In every organisation I've worked in, I'd take experience over qualifications for senior positions every time.

We are not talking about someone to send out for biscuits, and organise the golf outings here. It's a job that needs a good knowledge of things like economics and balancing the books.

The nan has no experience of anything and no qualification above Higher English. I would suggest that his failure to finish University, and his lack of judgement have a common root - lack of intelligence.

Put it this way, would you let a nurse perform surgery on one of your kids because she had lots of experience of operating theatres.

MacKay has proved himself to be an over promoted duddy, and you have to wonder why he was preffered to more serious politicians .


That's interesting. I'd take ability over both every time. I concede it can be hard to measure though.

What sort of things would demonstrate ability to manage a country's finances? I would be looking at being able to analyse complex documents, make comparisons of different answers, and to back your decisions up with evidence.

I woukdn't imagine anybody would run a bank without some form of degree. Even that is no guarantee of understanding the business as RBS demonstrated.

[allmodcons]

Not entirely true that though is it. Over a third of taxation raised in Scotland is now under the control of the Scottish Government and that’s set to rise to over 50% once the agreed remaining taxes are fully devolved.

That though might not be seen as great news as so far thanks to these changes. Despite raising the rate on the higher bands on income tax and at the same time deploying the ever so cunning fiscal drag anyone earning over £27k is paying more income tax than the rest of the UK but ending up with a SG whose budget is lower than it would have been by a hundred million or two (depending on which figure you take)

In fact the forecast figures in regards to the outlook for how these taxation changes have worked is grim and could run to almost £1bn over 3 years.

Next up we have social security being fully devolved and already a warning from the fiscal commission around the fiscal risks that will expose and of course the slew of new and increased payments already promised.

Scotland also now has the ability to raise debt and / or build reserves something it has been busily doing. Today the reserve was deployed and in previous two budgets debt used. Indeed almost half a billion in debt already before today with that set to rise even further.

And yes of course I know the standard response to all of this is if only we had more power and more control then all would be dandy but to suggest there is no real tax raising powers in Scotland now is incorrect nor is it the case that fiscal responsibility is not already here and so far that’s maybe not so pretty.

Presumably, you mean more income tax and by the same token anyone earning under £27k in Scotland is paying less income tax than their UK counterparts.

You know as well as I do that the SG has a different set of priorities from Westminster. It's the overall package that counts, free tuition fees being but one example.

It doesn't matter how you look at it, the tax raising powers that have been devolved are a dogs breakfast. The only way to sort it out is to devolve taxation (including corporation tax) in full. The only credible measure of how well the SG is doing with the powers they have is to give them full fiscal autonomy as, of course, was promised in The Vow :rolleyes:.

As I've said before the best analogy I've heard is that it's like giving a golfer one club and expecting him to score round the course.

[Ozyhibby]

Presumably, you mean more income tax and by the same token anyone earning under £27k in Scotland is paying less income tax than their UK counterparts.

You know as well as I do that the SG has a different set of priorities from Westminster. It's the overall package that counts, free tuition fees being but one example.

It doesn't matter how you look at it, the tax raising powers that have been devolved are a dogs breakfast. The only way to sort it out is to devolve taxation (including corporation tax) in full. The only credible measure of how well the SG is doing with the powers they have is to give them full fiscal autonomy as, of course, was promised in The Vow :rolleyes:.

As I've said before the best analogy I've heard is that it's like giving a golfer one club and expecting him to score round the course.

56% of Scottish tax payers pay less tax than if they lived in England.


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[Bristolhibby]

I agree notwithstanding the fact that there are numerous examples of successful political leaders who displayed spectacularly poor judgement in their personal lives.

Cough, Johnson, cough, smashing up his girlfriends flat.

Cough, How many children does he have and by whom? What influence do they exert?

Don’t get me started on “Grab em by the Pussy”.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Cough, Johnson, cough, smashing up his girlfriends flat.

Cough, How many children does he have and by whom? What influence do they exert?

Don’t get me started on “Grab em by the Pussy”.

J

I wasn't really thinking of the obviously moronic but rather people who would generally be regarded as successful leaders, eg. Bill Clinton, JFK, Martin Luther King even.

[Cataplana]

Thanks, so if you get a bit drunk and do something daft you are unfit for any job. I'm surprised unemployment is so low.

Yes, even if you do it something like 360 times in six months.

[JeMeSouviens]

We are not talking about someone to send out for biscuits, and organise the golf outings here. It's a job that needs a good knowledge of things like economics and balancing the books.

The nan has no experience of anything and no qualification above Higher English. I would suggest that his failure to finish University, and his lack of judgement have a common root - lack of intelligence.

Put it this way, would you let a nurse perform surgery on one of your kids because she had lots of experience of operating theatres.

MacKay has proved himself to be an over promoted duddy, and you have to wonder why he was preffered to more serious politicians .



What sort of things would demonstrate ability to manage a country's finances? I would be looking at being able to analyse complex documents, make comparisons of different answers, and to back your decisions up with evidence.

I woukdn't imagine anybody would run a bank without some form of degree. Even that is no guarantee of understanding the business as RBS demonstrated.

Actually I think qualifications and experience are often just used as proxies for ability: "he wouldn't have got a first at Oxbridge if he didn't know what's what", "Acme plc wouldn't have had him on the board for 20 years if he wasn't a brick", that kind of thing.

I think actual things learned in undergrad courses are unlikely to be of much use a lot of the time. I know I don't use much if anything I was taught at uni now. Experience can be useful but I think leadership is generally something some people have the ability for and most don't. And there are a lot of people in large organisations promoted into leadership roles with little aptitude for it but who manage to stay there, gaining experience in CV terms, for considerable lengths of time.

[Cataplana]

Actually I think qualifications and experience are often just used as proxies for ability: "he wouldn't have got a first at Oxbridge if he didn't know what's what", "Acme plc wouldn't have had him on the board for 20 years if he wasn't a brick", that kind of thing.

I think actual things learned in undergrad courses are unlikely to be of much use a lot of the time. I know I don't use much if anything I was taught at uni now. Experience can be useful but I think leadership is generally something some people have the ability for and most don't. And there are a lot of people in large organisations promoted into leadership roles with little aptitude for it but who manage to stay there, gaining experience in CV terms, for considerable lengths of time.

It's hard to quantify this, but I didn't think MacKay came across as having the imagination to be creative with the economy. He was as much in control of strategy as middle managers are at the likes of Standard Life, or HBOS.

I imagine there is someone out there who has a brilliant mind and can understand figures at an actuarial level, who has never had a formal qualification in their puff. I don't imagine there are two though.

To reiterate, this man was so stupid that he embarked on a conquest of a man 25 years younger, a schoolboy, and left himself compromised. What would he be capable of if ever under pressure.

I suppose the best way to test out this theory that qualifications are not important is to come up with examples of people who have been their country's finance minister, been good at it, and never went beyond secondary school.

MacKay obvious isn't one as he has just had the bullet.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes, even if you do it something like 360 times in six months.

:confused:

[Cataplana]

They are all lining up to stick the boot in now.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/derek-mackay-married-snp-activist-allegedly-bombarded-with-creepy-messages-for-years-by-ex-finance-secretary-1-5087225

[RyeSloan]

56% of Scottish tax payers pay less tax than if they lived in England.


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Nice stat but it’s by nominal amounts.

Earn £15k in Scotland and pay £20 less.

Earn £50k and it’s £1.5k more


So you now have a situation where almost half of income tax payers are paying more, some substantially more yet the overall budget is lower than if they had left it as was, with next year forecast to be even worse.

[RyeSloan]

Presumably, you mean more income tax and by the same token anyone earning under £27k in Scotland is paying less income tax than their UK counterparts.

You know as well as I do that the SG has a different set of priorities from Westminster. It's the overall package that counts, free tuition fees being but one example.

It doesn't matter how you look at it, the tax raising powers that have been devolved are a dogs breakfast. The only way to sort it out is to devolve taxation (including corporation tax) in full. The only credible measure of how well the SG is doing with the powers they have is to give them full fiscal autonomy as, of course, was promised in The Vow :rolleyes:.

As I've said before the best analogy I've heard is that it's like giving a golfer one club and expecting him to score round the course.

Yes I was talking about income tax, that’s why I stated it was about income tax ;-)

But we agree on one thing, it is indeed a dogs dinner.

I also tend to agree with your point re actions that would go some way to potentially remedy but of course we both know that’s not going to happen in the current environment. The question therefore is why agree to the current mess in the first place?

The existing set up effectively puts large fiscal risk into Scotland’s budget due to the fact that the starting principles were ‘best guesses’ and any relative under performance of the Scottish Economy to rUK just exacerbates the problem.

The devolved benefits are also now an issue with just one of them (Pregnancy and Baby care) costing more than 70% more than expected in its first year.
The VAT element has also, I believe, been put on the back burner due to a rather belated realisation of the potential consequences.

So we end up in the same place, why agree to a methodology and devolved powers that puts such a large risk into Scotland’s budget in the first place?

The answer can’t always be just give us more powers and we’ll sort it, there has to be some acceptance of the current situation and admission of the potentially hugely expensive position they have placed Scotland in.

[weecounty hibby]

Yes, even if you do it something like 360 times in six months.
I am unsure as to how I've managed to keep my job for 35 years, been promoted to senior manager, have a department budget of £4.3m pounds, over and above salary etc, with a team of 68 people when I have been a total twat at times in my life and do not have a degree. Thanks god there are saints like you going about to keep the rest of us right.
This is by no means a defence of McKay, he deserves everything coming to him just an argument against your case that one someone with a degree who is completely virtuous can have a job

[Ozyhibby]

Nice stat but it’s by nominal amounts.

Earn £15k in Scotland and pay £20 less.

Earn £50k and it’s £1.5k more


So you now have a situation where almost half of income tax payers are paying more, some substantially more yet the overall budget is lower than if they had left it as was, with next year forecast to be even worse.

I’d say if you can make the majority of the population just a little bit better off then you have a winning election strategy.


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[Cataplana]

I am unsure as to how I've managed to keep my job for 35 years, been promoted to senior manager, have a department budget of £4.3m pounds, over and above salary etc, with a team of 68 people when I have been a total twat at times in my life and do not have a degree. Thanks god there are saints like you going about to keep the rest of us right.
This is by no means a defence of McKay, he deserves everything coming to him just an argument against your case that one someone with a degree who is completely virtuous can have a job

That's a wee bit chippy, to be fair. I'm talking about the finance minister of a major economy , and am still waiting for examples of other countries who have finance ministers who dropped out of University.

A degree is no big deal, and as you have shown it should be no barrier to a successful life. However, MacKay has been far from successful.

I'll repeat my earlier question. Would you be happy for an unqualified doctor to operate on your child? Some jobs need qualifications, and that's all there is to it.

I don't have a degree, and have been a total failure in life, that's another story though

[Kato]

That "error of judgement" line is now as tired as it was weak when it first appeared. Would be refreshing to hear some weirdo who got caught coming out with, "I'm sorry for being a creep who creeped all my victims out. I'm now retiring from public life and will be a creep in my own time." I suppose politicians are experts in playing politics with words.

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[Ozyhibby]

That "error of judgement" line is now as tired as it was weak when it first appeared. Would be refreshing to hear some weirdo who got caught coming out with, "I'm sorry for being a creep who creeped all my victims out. I'm now retiring from public life and will be a creep in my own time." I suppose politicians are experts in playing politics with words.

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To be fair, I think that’s just to make himself feel better. Nobody out there thinks he is anything more than a creep and nothing he says will change that. He won’t be seen in public life again. He’ll be lucky to get a job again.


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[RyeSloan]

I’d say if you can make the majority of the population just a little bit better off then you have a winning election strategy.


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Sure I was reading on here that such margins relating to council tax freeze made no difference.

I get your point tho...it’s a good slogan to say the SNP have made 56% of income tax payers better off.

Not quite so good when the small print says it’s by a mighty £1.50 a month and actually has resulted in hundreds of millions disappearing off the governments budget.

[weecounty hibby]

That's a wee bit chippy, to be fair. I'm talking about the finance minister of a major economy , and am still waiting for examples of other countries who have finance ministers who dropped out of University.

A degree is no big deal, and as you have shown it should be no barrier to a successful life. However, MacKay has been far from successful.

I'll repeat my earlier question. Would you be happy for an unqualified doctor to operate on your child? Some jobs need qualifications, and that's all there is to it.

I don't have a degree, and have been a total failure in life, that's another story though

Why do you need examples of finance ministers who have dropped out of uni? What about if we give you well educated ministers who have made complete messes of things. How did Gordon Brown leave the economy for example?

[heretoday]

This guy sounds like he's been a bit out of control with the texting. It's a wonder he could concentrate on his work at all.

[SHODAN]

The National now reporting that Mackay had been banned from events by the FM because of his behaviour.

This isn't looking good.

[Cataplana]

Why do you need examples of finance ministers who have dropped out of uni? What about if we give you well educated ministers who have made complete messes of things. How did Gordon Brown leave the economy for example?

I would just like evidence that it is possible to do well at that level without ever having had any experience in finance, or demonstrated an ability to grasp economics such that you can control the finances of 4 million people.

If it isn't necessary to have been educated to university level there should be lots around.

I thought it unusual that someone who didn't get past his Highers was running the country. I need examples of how this has actually worked elsewhere. Telling me who has a degree and failed at the job is not the same thing.

Ps, Brown would eat MacKay and most other finance ministers for his tea. It wasn't his fault that there was a global financial crisis.

[lapsedhibee]

Ps, Brown would eat MacKay and most other finance ministers for his tea. It wasn't his fault that there was a global financial crisis.

:hmmm: Don't you remember the expression "Light touch regulation"?

[CloudSquall]

Ps, Brown would eat MacKay and most other finance ministers for his tea. It wasn't his fault that there was a global financial crisis.

I think a 16 year old leaving school without any qulifications would understand not to telegraph to the market when you are about to dump gold on it as Brown did at the bottom of a 2 year bear market.

[Moulin Yarns]

The National now reporting that Mackay had been banned from events by the FM because of his behaviour.

This isn't looking good.

I read that he was banned from the bar at events, not the event itself.

[Cataplana]

:hmmm: Don't you remember the expression "Light touch regulation"?

I think Canada was the only place that had the sense to stay out of that. I'm not sure what level their finance minister was educated to.

Ps Broon would still swat away Deek away like a fly.

[Frankhfc]

The National now reporting that Mackay had been banned from events by the FM because of his behaviour.

This isn't looking good.

Yep. Stories emerging that the heid yins were aware of Mackay's erratic behaviour before the story broke. Angry if true as the snp were meant to be a break from the old style governmental cover ups and keeping the public in the dark. Looking like the same old sleaze and sweep sweep I'm afraid to say. Not good at all.

The snp needs a revamp and quickly.

[grunt]

Yep. Stories emerging that the heid yins were aware of Mackay's erratic behaviour before the story broke. Angry if true as the snp were meant to be a break from the old style governmental cover ups and keeping the public in the dark. Looking like the same old sleaze and sweep sweep I'm afraid to say. Not good at all.

The snp needs a revamp and quickly.Where are these stories emerging from? Are they true? Or disinformation?

[Moulin Yarns]

Yep. Stories emerging that the heid yins were aware of Mackay's erratic behaviour before the story broke. Angry if true as the snp were meant to be a break from the old style governmental cover ups and keeping the public in the dark. Looking like the same old sleaze and sweep sweep I'm afraid to say. Not good at all.

The snp needs a revamp and quickly.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18217581.nicola-sturgeon-banned-shamed-derek-mackay-drinking-snp-conferences/

[Frankhfc]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18217581.nicola-sturgeon-banned-shamed-derek-mackay-drinking-snp-conferences/

Dearie me. I'd have sacked him on the spot. Sturgeon has to go and soon or its goodnight vienna to independence. Weak weak leadership. Shocking.

[weecounty hibby]

Dearie me. I'd have sacked him on the spot. Sturgeon has to go and soon or its goodnight vienna to independence. Weak weak leadership. Shocking.
Yip, maybe Johann Lamont was right. We Scots are just not genetically programmed to make political decisions. Thank god we have all of those in Westminster to protect us and look after us

[weecounty hibby]

I think Canada was the only place that had the sense to stay out of that. I'm not sure what level their finance minister was educated to.

Ps Broon would still swat away Deek away like a fly.
What difference does his education make though. Brown was well educated, a brilliant thinker and made a total James Hunt of the economy. Swatting away McKay will not airbrush that from history. Brown led the UK towards a decade and more of austerity and public services being ****ed. He also managed to shepherd in potentially decades of Tory rule. But I'm sure that will be ok because he had a degree and was very clever. Perhaps he was too clever by half and didn't/wouldn't listen to anyone, who knows?!?

[Frankhfc]

Yip, maybe Johann Lamont was right. We Scots are just not genetically programmed to make political decisions. Thank god we have all of those in Westminster to protect us and look after us

Shambles of a post.

You don't need to be political genius to sack someone whose 'allegedly' making passes and being a pest towards young men at conference or parties or on the phone or wherever. its a matter of basic decency and protecting young party members from being potentially at risk.

After Salmond came to light you'd expect a zero tolerance to be put in place if stories emerge of new scandal.

[Ozyhibby]

Yep. Stories emerging that the heid yins were aware of Mackay's erratic behaviour before the story broke. Angry if true as the snp were meant to be a break from the old style governmental cover ups and keeping the public in the dark. Looking like the same old sleaze and sweep sweep I'm afraid to say. Not good at all.

The snp needs a revamp and quickly.

So because they knew he was an arse when drunk and banned him from drinks events they should have known he also like to groom young boys on the internet?
Struggling to make that jump.
Sounds to me like an appropriate response to both allegations.


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[lapsedhibee]

I think Canada was the only place that had the sense to stay out of that. I'm not sure what level their finance minister was educated to.

Ps Broon would still swat away Deek away like a fly.
Agree with your assessment of their relative abilities, but Brown was up to his neck in it.

[Smartie]

So because they knew he was an arse when drunk and banned him from drinks events they should have known he also like to groom young boys on the internet?
Struggling to make that jump.
Sounds to me like an appropriate response to both allegations.


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Sturgeon has been exemplary in her handling of both situations. It won't stop those who already don't like her from putting the boot in though.

There's a big stretch from undesirable behaviour (being an arse whilst drunk) to unacceptable behaviour (pursuing young people who may be above the age of consent but only just, still an abuse of power) to criminal behaviour, and then very serious criminal behaviour.

You have to punish each accordingly, and you can't go punishing someone for one too severely just because they might go on to do something more serious.

MacKay has certainly brought shame upon the party and created a situation that Sturgeon could really be doing without having to deal with at all, even if she's dealing with it exactly as she should.

[weecounty hibby]

Shambles of a post.

You don't need to be political genius to sack someone whose 'allegedly' making passes and being a pest towards young men at conference or parties or on the phone or wherever. its a matter of basic decency and protecting young party members from being potentially at risk.

After Salmond came to light you'd expect a zero tolerance to be put in place if stories emerge of new scandal.
He has been sacked in real terms. He has been suspended immediately pending an internal enquiry which I have no doubt will find him guilty of all charges. He will then be expelled from the party and it will then be entirely up to him what he does or does not do regarding his status as an MSP. From your post I suspect you would have not carried out an enquiry and left yourself open to unfair dismissal type claims? Would you like to see a zero tolerance on all parties? They're are folk like McKay in all parties sad to say. But some are still in politics just at different levels and I will not try to make political points scoring about that.
Again I need to point out that I am not defending him at all. But some of the stuff being written/posted/said is nonsense

[Frankhfc]

He has been sacked in real terms. He has been suspended immediately pending an internal enquiry which I have no doubt will find him guilty of all charges. He will then be expelled from the party and it will then be entirely up to him what he does or does not do regarding his status as an MSP. From your post I suspect you would have not carried out an enquiry and left yourself open to unfair dismissal type claims? Would you like to see a zero tolerance on all parties? They're are folk like McKay in all parties sad to say. But some are still in politics just at different levels and I will not try to make political points scoring about that.
Again I need to point out that I am not defending him at all. But some of the stuff being written/posted/said is nonsense

Correct.

Sacking him as a Minister is completely separate from being removed as an MSP.

I was very disappointed to hear the heid yins at the snp already knew of his alleged behaviour and it took the press to force their hand, again.

I'm also disappointed at some of the guff being written by those who put party first before what was an easy decision to remove him from his post as Finance Minister and before the story broke out into the public domain.

Sturgeon should resign immediately and be replaced by someone untainted by both the Salmond and now the Mackay scandals but I suspect she won't unfortunately.

Thats my opinion and the last I'll say on the matter as its for me black and white that once the heid yins knew they should have demoted Mackay back down to MSP level.

[Ozyhibby]

Correct.

Sacking him as a Minister is completely separate from being removed as an MSP.

I was very disappointed to hear the heid yins at the snp already knew of his alleged behaviour and it took the press to force their hand, again.

I'm also disappointed at some of the guff being written by those who put party first before what was an easy decision to remove him from his post as Finance Minister and before the story broke out into the public domain.

Sturgeon should resign immediately and be replaced by someone untainted by both the Salmond and now the Mackay scandals but I suspect she won't unfortunately.

Thats my opinion and the last I'll say on the matter as its for me black and white that once the heid yins knew they should have demoted Mackay back down to MSP level.

They knew on Wednesday night and he was sacked on Thursday morning. Can’t get much quicker than that.[emoji23]


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[lapsedhibee]

I was very disappointed to hear the heid yins at the snp already knew of his alleged behaviour and it took the press to force
their hand, again.
Sturgeon should resign immediately and be replaced by someone untainted by both the Salmond and now the Mackay scandals but I suspect she won't unfortunately.

:faf:

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

We are one day in to this awful story and shocking series of events and already it seems like the real victim is now the side issue as the Sun newspaper and the Tories are looking for government heads to roll. But of course the timing of the story is a coincidence and there are no political agendas.......

[Ozyhibby]

We are one day in to this awful story and shocking series of events and already it seems like the real victim is now the side issue as the Sun newspaper and the Tories are looking for government heads to roll. But of course the timing of the story is a coincidence and there are no political agendas.......

And Sturgeon took the wind right out their sails by sacking him before most people had even read the story.


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[weecounty hibby]

They knew on Wednesday night and he was sacked on Thursday morning. Can’t get much quicker than that.[emoji23]


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I think Frank's point is that he had a history of poor behaviour and had been warned before and should have been shown the door earlier. The fact is that I had actually had to do similar with a staff member. He was becoming a nuisance at company events when drink had been taken and actually kissed the HR director for Scotland on the forehead! He didn't get sacked though, just told not to be drinking and to curb his behaviour. I think that this has been handled fairly well in what is a terrible situation. He has behaved badly and deserves all coming his way. I hope the youngster involved is ok and gets any help necessary.

[Cataplana]

What difference does his education make though. Brown was well educated, a brilliant thinker and made a total James Hunt of the economy. Swatting away McKay will not airbrush that from history. Brown led the UK towards a decade and more of austerity and public services being ****ed. He also managed to shepherd in potentially decades of Tory rule. But I'm sure that will be ok because he had a degree and was very clever. Perhaps he was too clever by half and didn't/wouldn't listen to anyone, who knows?!?

I dont know. It just seems unusual for him to have been in that position, and I'd like to know the thinking behind his appointment.

How did this guy get into such a position, what were the abilities that his boss saw?

As for Brown, you make a compelling case.

[Cataplana]

Agree with your assessment of their relative abilities, but Brown was up to his neck in it.

I think Weecounty made a good point that people who are too smart aren't good at listening to others. Actually that makes them not smart enough.

It is clear that having a good education is no guarantee of being good at a job. Even if you take that out of the argument though, it is a bit of a mystery how a lightweight like MacKay got the gig.

Worse appointment than Cathro at Hearts - at least he had coaching experience. What did Feel bring to the party.

A bit of an OG by Nicola, IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-51384174?__twitter_impression=true
Getting on with the day job.[emoji6]


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[Smartie]

We are one day in to this awful story and shocking series of events and already it seems like the real victim is now the side issue as the Sun newspaper and the Tories are looking for government heads to roll. But of course the timing of the story is a coincidence and there are no political agendas.......

It's a bad story for the SNP, but is it really "an awful story" and one with a "victim"?

A laddie received a bit of unwanted attention online from an older gentlemen. Let's face it, the internet is crawling with weirdos who are making passes of different types at different people. He is old enough to follow up on advances that are welcome and will, over the next few years, have to learn how to survive that murky world of people wanting to have sex with each other.

It sounds like the young chap had a sensible head on his shoulders and managed to get the message out there that he wasn't interested.

Unless further information emerges I don't think we're talking about a victim who is likely to have been significantly negatively impacted by what went on, and pretending that he does is disrespectful to the victims of real crimes who have to live with the consequences of such crimes.

MacKay's behaviour was totally unacceptable but I don't think it needs to be turned into something that it isn't.

[greenlex]

Watching the STV weather tonight and I’ve just realised Sean Batty and Derek McKay have the exact same voice. It freaked me out a bit.

[heretoday]

We are one day in to this awful story and shocking series of events and already it seems like the real victim is now the side issue as the Sun newspaper and the Tories are looking for government heads to roll. But of course the timing of the story is a coincidence and there are no political agendas.......

Hear hear.

[RyeSloan]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-51384174?__twitter_impression=true
Getting on with the day job.[emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmm some of the figures in there are hardly great reading for Scotland despite the headline.

Of course we could spend a lot of time exchanging ‘getting on with the day job’ headlines. Not all of them pretty.

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/number-of-homeless-deaths-in-scotland-increases-by-almost-20-in-one-year-64973

Or how about this one which makes damning reading of Scotland’s care system:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-care-review-report-calls-for-radical-overhaul-of-fractured-system-1-5086035/amp


Or the need for yet another review in Education:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51392631

One might be tempted to think that if they day job was going so well there might not be such need for so many reviews or such damning verdicts when they were completed...

[Mr Grieves]

Hmm some of the figures in there are hardly great reading for Scotland despite the headline.


They look poor for the 4 nations of the UK, I wonder why that is?

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-51384174?__twitter_impression=true
Getting on with the day job.[emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Awe c'mon, that's comparing apples to apples. You're not allowed to do that. :rules:

[G B Young]

It's a bad story for the SNP, but is it really "an awful story" and one with a "victim"?

A laddie received a bit of unwanted attention online from an older gentlemen. Let's face it, the internet is crawling with weirdos who are making passes of different types at different people. He is old enough to follow up on advances that are welcome and will, over the next few years, have to learn how to survive that murky world of people wanting to have sex with each other.

It sounds like the young chap had a sensible head on his shoulders and managed to get the message out there that he wasn't interested.

Unless further information emerges I don't think we're talking about a victim who is likely to have been significantly negatively impacted by what went on, and pretending that he does is disrespectful to the victims of real crimes who have to live with the consequences of such crimes.

MacKay's behaviour was totally unacceptable but I don't think it needs to be turned into something that it isn't.

I think it's more serious than that. This piece explains why:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/the-six-most-chilling-words-in-derek-mackay-s-messages-to-a-child-gina-davidson-1-5087105

As was probably predictable, further allegations are now surfacing:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/activist-hounded-derek-mackay-naughty-21453817

Not necessarily scandalous, but underlines Mackay's utter stupidity nonentheless.

One positive from the whole sorry mess is that it's shut Sturgeon up about independence for a wee while :wink:

[Smartie]

I think it's more serious than that. This piece explains why:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/the-six-most-chilling-words-in-derek-mackay-s-messages-to-a-child-gina-davidson-1-5087105

As was probably predictable, further allegations are now surfacing:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/activist-hounded-derek-mackay-naughty-21453817

Not necessarily scandalous, but underlines Mackay's utter stupidity nonentheless.

One positive from the whole sorry mess is that it's shut Sturgeon up about independence for a wee while :wink:

I don’t mean to dismiss this, just to point out that there probably hasn’t been a drastically awful impact on who is being described as a victim.

A fair bit of that can be attributed to the young lad’s decent handling of the situation though. Had he ever met up with MacKay (as MacKay clearly wanted) then that might be a totally different story, so MacKay’s behaviour is still inexcusable.

And I doubt Sturgeon is going to stop banging on about independence any time soon.