SNP nonsense

[Smartie]

Fair and balanced post to be fair. :aok:

If what you say is correct and Ruth Davidson does have personal views of her own, then she should be more open and honest about them whenever she gets the chance. Her transitioning from "the EU is good for Scotland" to "the free market and customs union is good for Scotland" to "full on Brexit is good for Scotland" is painful to listen to.

You can tell it's not really her that's speaking. So trusting anything she comes out with is pretty much impossible. It's a frustrating task trying to work out what she really thinks.

Every democracy requires alternatives. Even when they're not in power, they play an important role in holding the party of the day to account. The problem with modern day politics is that parties will do or say anything to try and gain an edge, even when they know that what they're doing or saying is unscrupulous. It's all about power at any cost now, even at the cost of the livelihoods of the very people they're suppost to be governing for.

Something the SNP has generally done brilliantly has been to take a group of people who probably have quite diverse thoughts and opinions, unite them behind the single policy they are all agreed upon, bicker in private but present a unified front in public.

Labour and the Tories have been all over the shop on this for the past few years, with very public fall-outs.

In the current climate, I think it must be quite tough to be a politician. You might have a strong opinion that goes against your party or you may even be lukewarm on a subject (see Labour and Brexit) that others are very keen on.

Ruth Davidson is struggling away to toe the party line (whatever that actually is) and remain true to her own values. I suppose the union of the UK is one subject where the Tories will be fairly unanimous in their backing of it. I suspect that Davidson is one of those who is vehemently anti-Brexit (as am I) and having had a fairly positive few years for all of the reasons mentioned in previous posts is toiling as much as anyone to make a success of the jugging act of representing the party trying to enact Brexit in a small nation that is anti-Brexit, an front of a Scottish electorate that she is probably currently relating to a whole lot better than the lunatic fringes of her own party down South.

She needs to join the good guys.

[James310]

Yep, definitely a leadership battle coming.

From an article in the Times today.

'Allies of Ms Sturgeon suspect that Ms Cherry, who is close to Alex Salmond, is eyeing up a bid to replace her as party leader. “She is his [Mr Salmond’s] chosen successor and wants to undermine Nicola,” a party source said.'

[Fife-Hibee]

She needs to join the good guys.

The SNP is always open to new members. Although she'll have to start at the bottom and work her way up. :wink:

As long as she takes a "UK at any cost" approach as all Tory politicans in Scotland do, she'll never be one of those "good guys".

[Fife-Hibee]

From an article in the Times today.

'Allies of Ms Sturgeon suspect that Ms Cherry, who is close to Alex Salmond, is eyeing up a bid to replace her as party leader. “She is his [Mr Salmond’s] chosen successor and wants to undermine Nicola,” a party source said.'

So an unnamed source who went to the times "suspects" something?

What if nobody went to the times and the article is a complete fabrication?

[James310]

Did anyone see the SNP MSP on that Scottish debate show discussing the currency issue? I know it has viewer numbers in the hundreds so unlikely, but she made a total **** of it. I wish I had a clip.

If our own MSPs don't understand it then how are we supposed to have confidence in them implementing it.

I see 'Wings' has said he has no 'position' on currency as he does not understand it enough. He needs to get some lessons from a few on here, it all happens behind the scenes is all he needs to know. Worry about the details later.

[James310]

So an unnamed source who went to the times "suspects" something?

What if nobody went to the times and the article is a complete fabrication?

So you would expect the Times to name the person? That's how papers work. But I know you would rather get your news from RT and the likes.

[Fife-Hibee]

That's how papers work.

It is indeed.

Create an article that's claiming something. Use words like "suspect", then don't name the apparent source.

That way when nothing happens, they're fully covered.

[Fife-Hibee]

Did anyone see the SNP MSP on that Scottish debate show discussing the currency issue? I know it has viewer numbers in the hundreds so unlikely, but she made a total **** of it. I wish I had a clip.

If our own MSPs don't understand it then how are we supposed to have confidence in them implementing it.

I see 'Wings' has said he has no 'position' on currency as he does not understand it enough. He needs to get some lessons from a few on here, it all happens behind the scenes is all he needs to know. Worry about the details later.

Well it's a good thing that we have you on here with your high level of economic expertise. Never mind that it completely overlooks world wide economics and the successes of nations who have established their own currencies.

Scotland (in your mind) is some mysterious exception, where it's own currency would be a disaster.

[James310]

Well it's a good thing that we have you on here with your high level of economic expertise. Never mind that it completely overlooks world wide economics and the successes of nations who have established their own currencies.

Scotland (in your mind) is some mysterious exception, where it's own currency would be a disaster.

It helps if the people implementing the policy actually understand the policy, gives you a bit of confidence they might actually know what they are doing. I have never said Scotland could not have its own currency, just we need to be clear about the costs and risk it will bring. Don't fall into the Brexit trap of hoping people vote for it and then worry about the details later.

[Smartie]

It helps if the people implementing the policy actually understand the policy, gives you a bit of confidence they might actually know what they are doing. I have never said Scotland could not have its own currency, just we need to be clear about the costs and risk it will bring. Don't fall into the Brexit trap of hoping people vote for it and then worry about the details later.

Do you think that every MP/ MSP has understood the finer details of every single policy, ever?

This one will take a bit of getting heads around.

Although I agree that it probably wouldn't be all that sensible to go on TV attempting to explain it unless you understood it inside out yourself...........

[James310]

Do you think that every MP/ MSP has understood the finer details of every single policy, ever?

This one will take a bit of getting heads around.

Although I agree that it probably wouldn't be all that sensible to go on TV attempting to explain it unless you understood it inside out yourself...........

It is complicated, that's the point. But a few on here still deny this.

Yes I would expect a MSP going on a television show to at least have a basic grasp of the subject. It then breeds confidence they know what they are doing, otherwise they get people like me accusing them of not having a clue what they are doing.

[Fife-Hibee]

It helps if the people implementing the policy actually understand the policy, gives you a bit of confidence they might actually know what they are doing. I have never said Scotland could not have its own currency, just we need to be clear about the costs and risk it will bring. Don't fall into the Brexit trap of hoping people vote for it and then worry about the details later.

Can the UK Government tell us what the costs and risks of remaining with the GBP will be several years down the line? It's an impossible question to expect anyone to answer accurately.

The SNP are being asked questions where concrete answers are utterly impossible to provide. As they would be for any country.

[allmodcons]

Obviously none, hence why the words 'I think' prelude the post. It's called speculating and funnily enough lots of people do it on here. Have a look at the other threads and you will see other people doing it as well, then have a look at the title of this thread.

Don't you like free speech? As I asked someone else, or maybe it was you, do you want the government of the day held to account? If so, in what way could it be done in a way that is acceptable to you?

People will have a pop at the SNP, it will happen, but share with us how that is done in a way that you like, if that is possible.

Maybe just mild criticism is allowed, or post only facts at all times, or maybe we get you and a few others to 'approve' any posts before they get published?

Are you for real? What a condescending pile of crap.

I'll ask again, what evidence have you got of NS and her husband being involved in any "cover ups or abuse"?

There is nothing wrong with speculation so long as it has a basis, preferably, in fact. What you posted was just a smear which, as I've already said, is down to your unhealthy hatred of the SNP.

As for you thinking you are holding the SNP Government to account here on hibs.net, don't make me laugh. The word 'conceited' springs to mind.

[jonty]

Emails are never really "deleted". Clearing them from your inbox, junk folder..... etc doesn't delete them from existence. They still exist on a server somewhere to be accessed by MI5 and other agencies. If there's anything in these emails, you can be sure that they'll surface.

:faf: that’s too much, even for you :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

:faf: that’s too much, even for you :greengrin

You don't think MI5 can access your "deleted" emails?

[allmodcons]

Something the SNP has generally done brilliantly has been to take a group of people who probably have quite diverse thoughts and opinions, unite them behind the single policy they are all agreed upon, bicker in private but present a unified front in public.

Labour and the Tories have been all over the shop on this for the past few years, with very public fall-outs.

In the current climate, I think it must be quite tough to be a politician. You might have a strong opinion that goes against your party or you may even be lukewarm on a subject (see Labour and Brexit) that others are very keen on.

Ruth Davidson is struggling away to toe the party line (whatever that actually is) and remain true to her own values. I suppose the union of the UK is one subject where the Tories will be fairly unanimous in their backing of it. I suspect that Davidson is one of those who is vehemently anti-Brexit (as am I) and having had a fairly positive few years for all of the reasons mentioned in previous posts is toiling as much as anyone to make a success of the jugging act of representing the party trying to enact Brexit in a small nation that is anti-Brexit, an front of a Scottish electorate that she is probably currently relating to a whole lot better than the lunatic fringes of her own party down South.

She needs to join the good guys.

Ruth Davidson has a major dilemma. As a Remainer her 'success' at the snap General Election was achieved on the back of a large Leave vote. She is completely at odds with Conservative voters in seats like Moray and Banff & Buchan who are quite happy with Brexit. If, as you infer, she is vehemently opposed to Brexit, I haven't heard anything she's said or seen anything she's done to support your view.

If what you are saying is correct, she is doing really well keeping a lid on her true views which do not concur with Conservative voters in the seats I've mentioned.

[jonty]

You don't think MI5 can access your "deleted" emails?

I know they can’t. Add in the fact that not all emails go over the internet and there isn’t enough storage available to store all emails that do (if that was even possible).

[Fife-Hibee]

I know they can’t. Add in the fact that not all emails go over the internet and there isn’t enough storage available to store all emails that do (if that was even possible).

It's a huge amount of data. But the volume of emails sent and recieved each day can be stored over several petabyte drives. It's far from impossible. It's also irrelevant if you have emails that you haven't sent over the internet. All modern operating systems have built in stealth keyloggers and unless you know how to disable them, they record every keystroke and store it in an encrypted file that can be decrypted by the right people.

[jonty]

It's a huge amount of data. But the volume of emails sent and recieved each day can be stored over several petabyte drives. It's far from impossible. It's also irrelevant if you have emails that you haven't sent over the internet. All modern operating systems have built in stealth keyloggers and unless you know how to disable them, they record every keystroke and store it in an encrypted file that can be decrypted by the right people.
Several petabyte drives? The largest available drive is 15TB, so your petabyte drives are some way off.
As for the rest......
Can I have some of what you’re smoking please.

[Fife-Hibee]

Several petabyte drives? The largest available drive is 15TB, so your petabyte drives are some way off.
As for the rest......
Can I have some of what you’re smoking please.

The largest drive available on the market is 15TB. We're not talking about the market place though. If you don't believe that modern operating systems log your keystrokes. Then how do the operating systems make use of autocompletion, word prediction and spelling correction? It must build up some profile of what you type in order to improve it's prediction functions.

[jonty]

The largest drive available on the market is 15TB. We're not talking about the market place though. If you don't believe that modern operating systems log your keystrokes. Then how do the operating systems make use of autocompletion, word prediction and spelling correction? It must build up some profile of what you type in order to improve it's prediction functions.

Auto completion is guesswork and commonly used words. Prediction is exactly that and spelling correction is simply comparing your text with a dictionary.

Key logging is a completely different kettle of fish to storing individual words. As is storing emails.

I’d love to read your sources.

You’re suggesting that (amongst others) Microsoft, apple and google are complicit in storing user data without the end users knowledge and consent. And not one antivirus/anti malware vendor has highlighted it.

[Fife-Hibee]

Auto completion is guesswork and commonly used words. Prediction is exactly that and spelling correction is simply comparing your text with a dictionary.

Key logging is a completely different kettle of fish to storing individual words. As is storing emails.

I’d love to read your sources.

You’re suggesting that (amongst others) Microsoft, apple and google are complicit in storing user data without the end users knowledge and consent. And not one antivirus/anti malware vendor has highlighted it.

Here's an article on how to turn it off in Windows 10 - https://www.pcworld.com/article/2974057/how-to-turn-off-windows-10s-keylogger-yes-it-still-has-one.html

The predictive text function becomes more efficient over time as the operating system collects the words that you use and how often you use them.

Anti virus software isn't designed to pick up on this keylogger. It doesn't operate as a system process that shows up in the task manager.

[jonty]

Here's an article on how to turn it off in Windows 10 - https://www.pcworld.com/article/2974057/how-to-turn-off-windows-10s-keylogger-yes-it-still-has-one.html

The predictive text function becomes more efficient over time as the operating system collects the words that you use and how often you use them.

Anti virus software isn't designed to pick up on this keylogger. It doesn't operate as a system process that shows up in the task manager.



It’s a really bad pc world website
It keeps redirecting me to some fake website that claims I’m an Aldi shopper and I’ve won
Fake news - pc world doesn’t know its arse from its elbow.
That feature is when the OS converts written text input into a word

I’m not sure many government agencies would thank Microsoft for creating a surveillance program that can be so easily disabled.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-a-keylogger-spoiler-no/
https://mobile.twitter.com/GabeAul/status/605490802844778496

A keylogger on the other hand is a surveillance tool records every keyboard key you type, along with app in use and stores the details either locally for collection or sends to a remote location.

Nothing like a keylogger, not sending your emails to MI5 and nothing about recovering deleted emails.

[James310]

So an unnamed source who went to the times "suspects" something?

What if nobody went to the times and the article is a complete fabrication?

So front page of the Times tweeted by Kenny Farquason who wrote an article titled:

Are Sturgeon's days numberered?

The article then references Joanna Cherry making her move to become leader.

Then very telling I think, the tweet is 'liked' by guess who? Yes, Joanna Cherry.

In today's social media world that as close to an admission you will get that she is making a move. Why like the tweet? She has clearly read it, so instead of liking the story she could have dismissed it as rubbish.

[Fife-Hibee]

It’s a really bad pc world website
It keeps redirecting me to some fake website that claims I’m an Aldi shopper and I’ve won
Fake news - pc world doesn’t know its arse from its elbow.
That feature is when the OS converts written text input into a word

I’m not sure many government agencies would thank Microsoft for creating a surveillance program that can be so easily disabled.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-a-keylogger-spoiler-no/
https://mobile.twitter.com/GabeAul/status/605490802844778496

A keylogger on the other hand is a surveillance tool records every keyboard key you type, along with app in use and stores the details either locally for collection or sends to a remote location.

Nothing like a keylogger, not sending your emails to MI5 and nothing about recovering deleted emails.

It may be easy to disable. But that's completely meaningless if very few people even know about it. It's activated by default and is just one of the many "security features" that the user has to manually opt out of. Which most won't, because they're not even aware of it.

I never claimed it was the only surveillance methods used either. Cortana plays a big hand in the gathering of data as well and you can only disable it if you know how to tweak the system registry.

[Fife-Hibee]

So front page of the Times tweeted by Kenny Farquason who wrote an article titled:

Are Sturgeon's days numberered?

The article then references Joanna Cherry making her move to become leader.

Then very telling I think, the tweet is 'liked' by guess who? Yes, Joanna Cherry.

In today's social media world that as close to an admission you will get that she is making a move. Why like the tweet? She has clearly read it, so instead of liking the story she could have dismissed it as rubbish.

The article is titled "Are Sturgeon's days numbered", which sets the tone of the article. I've searched The Times website for the article but can't appear to find it anywhere? Even a google search won't bring it up.

Perhaps the creator of the article has been thwarted already?

[James310]

The article is titled "Are Sturgeon's days numbered", which sets the tone of the article. I've searched The Times website for the article but can't appear to find it anywhere? Even a google search won't bring it up.

Perhaps the creator of the article has been thwarted already?


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/782ba048-768a-11e9-9a94-9c1516913bdb


It's behind a pay wall. So you may not be able to access it. You get to view 2 articles for free each week.

Why do you think Joanne Cherry liked the article on Twitter?

[Fife-Hibee]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/782ba048-768a-11e9-9a94-9c1516913bdb


It's behind a pay wall. So you may not be able to access it. You get to view 2 articles for free each week.

Why do you think Joanne Cherry liked the article on Twitter?

Well if it's behind a pay wall, is it possible that the article was created to entice new subscribers?

I don't know anything about "Joanna" Cherry liking this article. There is no mention of it on her twitter account. She did however make a post on the 12 of May, claiming that newspapers were "making up stories" about her. She also shared a post from Nicola Sturgeon yesterday, which would be a bit of an odd thing to do if she was planning some plot to overthrow her.

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry
https://i.ibb.co/2SpJ2hC/joannacherry.png

[G B Young]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/782ba048-768a-11e9-9a94-9c1516913bdb


It's behind a pay wall. So you may not be able to access it. You get to view 2 articles for free each week.

Why do you think Joanne Cherry liked the article on Twitter?

Here it is. All seems rather speculative (especially the prospect of Swinney returning as leader), although as I said in an earlier post I imagine Sturgeon is well aware that there are some sticky moments and headlines in the offing when the Salmond case returns to the top of the news schedule. Just have to wait and see what comes out in the wash as they say:

Are we nearing the end of Nicola Sturgeon’s time in Scottish politics? This might seem a strange question given her dominance of the nation’s political life and her party’s seemingly unassailable position in the polls. And yet a possible change of leader is the hot topic of conversation among SNP parliamentarians and has been for some time. For Ms Sturgeon, is this the end of days?
There is only one reason for this speculation: the forthcoming trial of Alex Salmond on two charges of attempted rape, nine of sexual assault, two of indecent assault and one of breach of the peace. The former SNP leader denies any criminality. His personal reputation hangs in the balance but so too, it seems, does the political career of his successor.
The fear among Ms Sturgeon’s allies is that whatever the verdict, the trial and any subsequent parliamentary inquiry at Holyrood will be deeply uncomfortable for the first minister.
There is an old adage in politics, most commonly attributed to Otto von Bismarck, that “laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made”. The same is true of government in a broader sense. The inner workings of the political machine are rarely a pretty sight. Things get said. Bad calls are made. Wild options are considered. Neatness is uncommon.
Will a closer examination of these machinations in open court or by parliamentary inquisitors be flattering for the first minister? Will details of private conversations Ms Sturgeon had with the accused, including a meeting in her own home to discuss sexual complaints, reflect well on her handling of the matter? What about the internal Scottish government inquiry into allegations against Mr Salmond of sexual misconduct?
Failings in the process have already been uncovered in a civil case that Mr Salmond brought and won against the administration he used to lead.
Taking all this into account, the conclusion of many senior people in the SNP (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/topic/scottish-national-party?page=1) is that the court case and its aftermath could throw into harsh relief a number of missteps in process by Ms Sturgeon, leading her to conclude that carrying on as first minister and party leader is no longer tenable.
I can report that conversations are already taking place among senior nationalists about what would happen if Ms Sturgeon (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/topic/nicola-sturgeon?page=1) felt she could not continue. Many of these conversations centre on the role of John Swinney. As deputy first minister he would be well placed to take control of the Scottish government at short notice. The key question in these conversations is whether Mr Swinney would be just a caretaker first minister or could be persuaded to take part in an SNP leadership election to make the promotion more permanent.
Timing, too, is an issue. Talk among SNP MSPs at Holyrood has examined the possibility that Ms Sturgeon, recognising difficulties ahead, might even step down before the trial, which is scheduled to begin in late summer or early autumn.
Such calculations might help to explain a certain restlessness within the SNP at the moment. It might also help to explain the fact that Joanna Cherry, SNP MP for Edinburgh South West, has rarely been out of the headlines of late. The former QC, who is close to Mr Salmond, is seen as a likely candidate for the leadership if Ms Sturgeon steps aside. Such a contest could well redefine Scottish nationalism.
This is a party with four distinct faultlines at the moment, the most obvious being whether to push ahead with a new referendum on independence or hold fire until more propitious circumstances. The second is a classic left-right split that most recently surfaced in SNP disagreements over what currency should be used in an independent Scotland. The third centres on Scottish ministers’ plans to change the law on transgender rights, an issue that has convulsed the grass roots of the party. And the fourth is the deepening division between those supportive of Ms Sturgeon and those who pine for the return of Mr Salmond or someone with his stamp of approval.
On all four Ms Cherry is on the opposite side of the argument from Ms Sturgeon. This is the light in which we should consider the current kerfuffle over SNP candidate vetting. Ms Cherry would have to go through this process if, as expected, she tried to move from Westminster to Holyrood. The MP recently challenged the party’s protocols on vetting, branding them unfit for purpose. Her offer to lead a review of the system has been politely but firmly turned down by Ms Sturgeon.
Consider too the Westminster inquiry into allegations of bullying of Ms Cherry’s parliamentary staff, vigorously contested by the MP and her office manager. SNP candidate vetting for Holyrood could well include an assessment of whether someone would be a fit employer.
Is there a “Stop Joanna” campaign being waged by allies of Ms Sturgeon? If so, will it succeed? Watch this space. By Christmas we could have a new first minister, with the snow globe of Scottish politics well and truly shaken.

[James310]

Well if it's behind a pay wall, is it possible that the article was created to entice new subscribers?

I don't know anything about "Joanna" Cherry liking this article. There is no mention of it on her twitter account. She did however make a post on the 12 of May, claiming that newspapers were "making up stories" about her. She also shared a post from Nicola Sturgeon yesterday, which would be a bit of an odd thing to do if she was planning some plot to overthrow her.

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry

Joanna Cherry and the journalist met up at the recent SNP conference (again proof on Twitter where they say how nice it was to meet up). She attacked the SNP 'hierarchy' at the weekend and Nicola Sturgeon quickly released a statement saying everything was fine.

Said journalist then writes article a few weeks later after meeting her about how Nicola Sturgeons days are numbered and how Joanne Cherry is best placed to take over from her. Joanne Cherry then 'likes' said article from the journalist.

Yes, nothing to see here.

Those on twitter know you don't 'like' an article if you think it is a load of nonsense. It's an approval of something.

[Fife-Hibee]

Joanna Cherry and the journalist met up at the recent SNP conference (again proof on Twitter where they say how nice it was to meet up). She attacked the SNP 'hierarchy' at the weekend and Nicola Sturgeon quickly released a statement saying everything was fine.

Said journalist then writes article a few weeks later after meeting her about how Nicola Sturgeons days are numbered and how Joanne Cherry is best placed to take over from her. Joanne Cherry then 'likes' said article from the journalist.

Yes, nothing to see here.

Those on twitter know you don't 'like' an article if you think it is a load of nonsense. It's an approval of something.

Where are the quotes James?

Claiming somebody said something and actually being able to quote what they said are 2 different things.

[Smartie]

If there is anything in any of this, you'd have to say that it is out of character for the SNP, who have been a well-drilled unit for some time.

The great unknown is the Alex Salmond case. None of us know any of the detail about it or anything that Ms Sturgeon may have mishandled.

Until there is some detail out there it is a bit silly to speculate, as this is most likely the most significant factor at play.

[James310]

Where are the quotes James?

Claiming somebody said something and actually being able to quote what they said are 2 different things.

They will not have quotes from Joanna Cherry admitting she is making a leadership challenge will they... Seriously?

It may be nothing or it may be something. When you join the dots it certainly suggests something.

[Fife-Hibee]

They will not have quotes from Joanna Cherry admitting she is making a leadership challenge will they... Seriously?

It may be nothing or it may be something. When you join the dots it certainly suggests something.

Well if they don't have quotes of her admitting that she is making a leadership challenge, then what do they have?

Connecting the dots? All you have is an obscure article in The Times which fails to include any quotes that would add any credibility to the tone of the article.

If there was actually any shred of evidence to suggest that Joanna Cherry was mounting a leadership challenge, it would be printed on the front page of every major paper across Scotland.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/KennyFarq/status/1128623041355890688?s=19

[Moulin Yarns]

Here it is. All seems rather speculative (especially the prospect of Swinney returning as leader), although as I said in an earlier post I imagine Sturgeon is well aware that there are some sticky moments and headlines in the offing when the Salmond case returns to the top of the news schedule. Just have to wait and see what comes out in the wash as they say:



Let me be the first to say that the chances of John Swinney leading the SNP is South of 0.

I know him both as my MSP and outside of politics and he is happy with his position. He and his family do not want the added pressure that comes with the top job.

[James310]

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-snp-leader

There are actually odds and JC is 12/1.

I really hope the favourite Derek MacKay gets the job though. That would be superb.

[Smartie]

My biggest criticism of the SNP is that I've alway thought they've lacked strength in depth. Salmond is a very astute operator and Sturgeon is also very competent. Swinney was ok, but beyond them I've found it hard to find future leadership material.

Joanna Cherry has been good in the commons and in various tv debates whilst Brexit has unfolded so she has emerged as someone I hadn't heard of a year ago into a fairly credible contender.

They will probably be stronger for having had so many people elected and actually carrying out the day job in position (rather than opposition) for so long, as both MPs and MSPs.

I've long wondered though whether the Salmond / Sturgeon era was "the chance" and that after then it might all go a bit quieter.

[JeMeSouviens]

My biggest criticism of the SNP is that I've alway thought they've lacked strength in depth. Salmond is a very astute operator and Sturgeon is also very competent. Swinney was ok, but beyond them I've found it hard to find future leadership material.

Joanna Cherry has been good in the commons and in various tv debates whilst Brexit has unfolded so she has emerged as someone I hadn't heard of a year ago into a fairly credible contender.

They will probably be stronger for having had so many people elected and actually carrying out the day job in position (rather than opposition) for so long, as both MPs and MSPs.

I've long wondered though whether the Salmond / Sturgeon era was "the chance" and that after then it might all go a bit quieter.

Compared to who? The Tories are Ruth Davidson then nobody and Labour are just nobody.

[Smartie]

Compared to who? The Tories are Ruth Davidson then nobody and Labour are just nobody.

The main parties ALL currently lack strength in depth. If May and Corbyn are qualified to be the leaders, what must the rest of them be like?

It didn't always seem to be that way. Certainly at Westminster you'd know the cabinet and a few more, you'd know the shadow cabinet and you'd recognise a few PM's in waiting. In the early years of the Scottish Parliament the Labour Party always seemed to have a good, solid few politicians who were committed to Scottish politics. Scottish Tories prefer to chase the big jobs down South, always have. And tbh, since they tend to be loathsome turds like Gove, they're more than welcome to them.

You make a fair point I suppose.

[Larry Burns]

My biggest criticism of the SNP is that I've alway thought they've lacked strength in depth. Salmond is a very astute operator and Sturgeon is also very competent. Swinney was ok, but beyond them I've found it hard to find future leadership material.

Joanna Cherry has been good in the commons and in various tv debates whilst Brexit has unfolded so she has emerged as someone I hadn't heard of a year ago into a fairly credible contender.

They will probably be stronger for having had so many people elected and actually carrying out the day job in position (rather than opposition) for so long, as both MPs and MSPs.

I've long wondered though whether the Salmond / Sturgeon era was "the chance" and that after then it might all go a bit quieter.

Swinney wasn't that great a leader the first time round, he'd be nowhere near it

I think the strength in depth is definitely there now:

Ian Blackford
Derek Mackay
Joanna Cherry
Mike Russell
Angus Robertson

[James310]

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1128627477566447616?s=19

I wonder who she thinks does the back stabbing behind the scenes.

She ain't happy!

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1128627477566447616?s=19

I wonder who she thinks does the back stabbing behind the scenes.

She ain't happy!


Did you see Ruth Davidson launch the tories European election manifesto today?

[Fife-Hibee]

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1128627477566447616?s=19

I wonder who she thinks does the back stabbing behind the scenes.

She ain't happy!

Perhaps those who she feels have put her to the sword? Still no mention of a "leadership challenge" though.

[James310]

Did you see Ruth Davidson launch the tories European election manifesto today?

No

I am going to vote Liberal Democrats in the Euro elections.

[G B Young]

Swinney wasn't that great a leader the first time round, he'd be nowhere near it

I think the strength in depth is definitely there now:

Ian Blackford
Derek Mackay
Joanna Cherry
Mike Russell
Angus Robertson

Jeez, I know I said on another thread I'd reconsider my opposition to independence if Jeremy Corbyn ever became PM, but that list gives me pause for thought - and makes me hope Sturgeon stays in charge. Hard to say which of them I find most repellent, but I think oily Angus and his slightly too tight shiny suits gets the nod, although Mike Russell runs him close.

[Fife-Hibee]

No

I am going to vote Liberal Democrats in the Euro elections.

Did you vote for them when they campaigned to keep tuition fees free?

[Fife-Hibee]

Jeez, I know I said on another thread I'd reconsider my opposition to independence if Jeremy Corbyn ever became PM, but that list gives me pause for thought - and makes me hope Sturgeon stays in charge. Hard to say which of them I find most repellent, but I think oily Angus and his slightly too tight shiny suits gets the nod, although Mike Russell runs him close.

I'm beginning to believe that anyone left of Farage is off putting for you.

[James310]

Did you vote for them when they campaigned to keep tuition fees free?

No. Lots of parties break manifesto commitments, we see that all the time.

[Fife-Hibee]

No. Lots of parties break manifesto commitments, we see that all the time.

It was a pretty big commitment. Seeing as it was one of their flagship policies.

[James310]

It was a pretty big commitment. Seeing as it was one of their flagship policies.

Well as I say it happens to all parties.

[Fife-Hibee]

Well as I say it happens to all parties.

Will be interesting to see if it happens again anytime soon.

[RyeSloan]

Did you vote for them when they campaigned to keep tuition fees free?

Did you vote for the SNP when they vowed to ‘dump the debt’?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/876c8148-0112-3df0-95b1-1f0bd7b6fbca

[Fife-Hibee]

Did you vote for the SNP when they vowed to ‘dump the debt’?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/876c8148-0112-3df0-95b1-1f0bd7b6fbca

Can't see the article. I don't subscribe to the "liberal conservative" Financial Times.

[jonty]

It may be easy to disable. But that's completely meaningless if very few people even know about it. It's activated by default and is just one of the many "security features" that the user has to manually opt out of. Which most won't, because they're not even aware of it.

I never claimed it was the only surveillance methods used either. Cortana plays a big hand in the gathering of data as well and you can only disable it if you know how to tweak the system registry.

Very few people? who exactly? feedback and statistics/usage data has been in OSs for as long as OSes have been able to feedback information online.
Inking has been available since the tablet pc (2000). Its not new.

Its not a "security feature". its usage information. Its part of the installation and setup. you have to acknowledge it when you set it up.
Cortana is the same. it has to be acknowledged during installation/setup.

I'm not sure which other sites you're reading or getting information from, but they're not accurate at all.
In fact, its all been about accurate as Farage and Brexit.

[Moulin Yarns]

No. Lots of parties break manifesto commitments, we see that all the time.

That must explain the tories European manifesto then 😉

[jonty]

Joanna Cherry and the journalist met up at the recent SNP conference (again proof on Twitter where they say how nice it was to meet up). She attacked the SNP 'hierarchy' at the weekend and Nicola Sturgeon quickly released a statement saying everything was fine.

Said journalist then writes article a few weeks later after meeting her about how Nicola Sturgeons days are numbered and how Joanne Cherry is best placed to take over from her. Joanne Cherry then 'likes' said article from the journalist.

Yes, nothing to see here.

Those on twitter know you don't 'like' an article if you think it is a load of nonsense. It's an approval of something.
So its all guesswork from you then.
And speculation from the author.

Social media shock and awe - subject of speculative articles likes article.

You don't write for the scotsman do you? :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

No

I am going to vote Liberal Democrats in the Euro elections.

Ah that makes sense. Carmichael and Steel will welcome you to their club.

[Fife-Hibee]

Very few people? who exactly? feedback and statistics/usage data has been in OSs for as long as OSes have been able to feedback information online.
Inking has been available since the tablet pc (2000). Its not new.

Its not a "security feature". its usage information. Its part of the installation and setup. you have to acknowledge it when you set it up.
Cortana is the same. it has to be acknowledged during installation/setup.

I'm not sure which other sites you're reading or getting information from, but they're not accurate at all.
In fact, its all been about accurate as Farage and Brexit.

It doesn't matter if you decide not to use them during installation. They become active after an update. Try telling the OS you don't want to use Cortana, then see how quickly it reactivates after an update. Then try looking for a setting to disable it. You won't find one. You need to go into the system registry and tweak a value in order to disable it. The same applies to many other "security features". All of your installation security option decisions are replaced when windows pushes an update.

I'm not asking you to simply take my word for it. Try it for yourself.

[jonty]

It doesn't matter if you decide not to use them during installation. They become active after an update. Try telling the OS you don't want to use Cortana, then see how quickly it reactivates after an update. Then try looking for a setting to disable it. You won't find one. You need to go into the system registry and tweak a value in order to disable it. The same applies to many other "security features". All of your installation security option decisions are replaced when windows pushes an update.

I'm not asking you to simply take my word for it. Try it for yourself.
I have. I've done literally thousands of installations over the years. from floppy drives, to zero touch network installs.

suspicion, conspiracy theories and make believe used to be confined to the main and cheese boards. clearly its spreading.

You still think that all the emails in the world as being stored on some future technology in massive datacentre hidden from prying eyes?

Complete bonkers.

[Fife-Hibee]

I have. I've done literally thousands of installations over the years. from floppy drives, to zero touch network installs.

suspicion, conspiracy theories and make believe used to be confined to the main and cheese boards. clearly its spreading.

You still think that all the emails in the world as being stored on some future technology in massive datacentre hidden from prying eyes?

Complete bonkers.

Then tell me. Where are all the non backup emails stored? According to you, there isn't enough data space in the world to store all of these emails. Yet the trillions of emails in the world that haven't been deleted are still somehow stored for everybody to access in their own personal inboxes. Why is it so far fetched to suggest that emails are copied to backup systems? What if the main servers fail? What if they get hacked into? How do you think they're able to recover peoples emails if there isn't some backup system to store them on?

Perhaps you have done thousands of installations. Have you done thousands of Operating System installations? The world of the internet has moved forward a long way since the days of the floppy drive.

[G B Young]

I'm beginning to believe that anyone left of Farage is off putting for you.

I used to vote Labour pre-Corbyn believe it or not...

However, it's not their left-leaning credentials I was referring to. Put any of that bunch in charge and watch the SNP's ability to reach out to anyone but the already converted nosedive. Sturgeon may be endlessly irritating but I respect her as a talented politician with rare core of relative normality in an arena which attracts much more than its fair share of oddballs and attention seekers. 'Showbiz for ugly people' as I once heard politics described...

[jonty]

Then tell me. Where are all the non backup emails stored? According to you, there isn't enough data space in the world to store all of these emails. Yet the trillions of emails in the world that haven't been deleted are still somehow stored for everybody to access in their own personal inboxes. Why is it so far fetched to suggest that emails are copied to backup systems? What if the main servers fail? What if they get hacked into? How do you think they're able to recover peoples emails if there isn't some backup system to store them on?

Perhaps you have done thousands of installations. Have you done thousands of Operating System installations? The world of the internet has moved forward a long way since the days of the floppy drive.

There's a difference between backups and redundancy (for disaster recovery).
You're not talking about storing all the existing emails. your trying to tell us that all emails are stored indefinitely, regardless of if they're deleted by the recipient.
And the thousands of installations are OS installations.
The world of the internet didn't exist when I did my first floppy drive installation.

Have a read of this forbes article https://www.forbes.com/sites/bernardmarr/2018/05/21/how-much-data-do-we-create-every-day-the-mind-blowing-stats-everyone-should-read/#67b575d660ba

Assuming the average email is 100KB, and the article is correct on 156 million emails per minute.
That's 14.5 terabytes per minute of data that you think is being stored.
in a day, that's 20 petabytes, or two of these racks. http://coraid.com/b180122-ten-petabytes.html
Per day.
so a years worth would be over 7000 petabytes at a cost of around 218million for storage. factor in compute power and your closer to billions.
then no doubt you'll want to factor in texts messages. images. audio calls. CCTV. facebook. twitter. Instagram. snapchat. youtube.

And then theres the people who have access to this data. how are they going to sift through it all?

And out of curiosity, what makes you think that you're so important that the government needs to spend all this money checking your emails?

(apologies - this is way off thread topic but it was too far out there to go unchallenged)

That's me done before i write an essay.

[Fife-Hibee]

Ok. So for starters. The average size of an email is 75kbs - https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&channel=crow&q=average+email+size

It's estimated that around 205 billion emails are sent per day - https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&channel=crow&ei=9-rdXNSEJ-Gh1fAP1Mm5wAc&q=how+many+emails+sent+per+day&oq=how+many+emails+sent+per+day&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39j0l2j0i22i30l7.22883.26017..26161...0.0 ..0.166.2194.27j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i131j0i20i263.Htoq0vUgrT0
However, the issue with this statistic is that it includes ALL emails, including the countless number of duplicate spam emails. Which is estimated to make up around 55% of all emails - https://www.statista.com/statistics/270899/global-e-mail-spam-rate/

Now I think that it could reasonably be expected that if there are backup systems in place, they would have a filtering system for removing spam mail and their millions of duplicates.

So lets say 100 billion emails are actually stored per day. That rounds up to approximately 70 terabytes of data per day.

70 terabytes of data per day split up over multiple servers around the world is hardly unmanagable. An annual world wide cost of 218 million (or closer to 100 million) is absolutely nothing at all.

As for "sifting through it all". They don't need to. All emails are still linked to the individual accounts and even if that one individual has tens of thousands of emails. They can quickly identify the suspected emails by searching for very particular key words.

If you were a suspected terrorist, they would have no problem building up a profile of you. Even using emails that you thought were deleted years ago.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ok. So for starters. The average size of an email is 75kbs - https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&channel=crow&q=average+email+size

It's estimated that around 205 billion emails are sent per day - https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&channel=crow&ei=9-rdXNSEJ-Gh1fAP1Mm5wAc&q=how+many+emails+sent+per+day&oq=how+many+emails+sent+per+day&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39j0l2j0i22i30l7.22883.26017..26161...0.0 ..0.166.2194.27j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i131j0i20i263.Htoq0vUgrT0
However, the issue with this statistic is that it includes ALL emails, including the countless number of duplicate spam emails. Which is estimated to make up around 55% of all emails - https://www.statista.com/statistics/270899/global-e-mail-spam-rate/

Now I think that it could reasonably be expected that if there are backup systems in place, they would have a filtering system for removing spam mail and their millions of duplicates.

So lets say 100 billion emails are actually stored per day. That rounds up to approximately 70 terabytes of data per day.

70 terabytes of data per day split up over multiple servers around the world is hardly unmanagable. An annual world wide cost of 218 million (or closer to 100 million) is absolutely nothing at all.

As for "sifting through it all". They don't need to. All emails are still linked to the individual accounts and even if that one individual has tens of thousands of emails. They can quickly identify the suspected emails by searching for very particular key words.

If you were a suspected terrorist, they would have no problem building up a profile of you. Even using emails that you thought were deleted years ago.


Lolz. Terrorists don't use email anyway, they use whatsapp - end to end encryption. :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

Lolz. Terrorists don't use email anyway, they use whatsapp - end to end encryption. :wink:

The same whatsapp that just recently pushed a new update due to a major security hack?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/may/14/whatsapp-hack-have-i-been-affected-and-what-should-i-do

:wink:

They use email. But generally email providers through the dark web.

[JeMeSouviens]

The same whatsapp that just recently pushed a new update due to a major security hack?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/may/14/whatsapp-hack-have-i-been-affected-and-what-should-i-do

:wink:

They use email. But generally email providers through the dark web.

Yeah, I was a bit out of date, since facebook have ****ed up the security on whatsapp like they do with everything else. Signal is apparently the app of choice now.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Thread hijack to say the least!

[jonty]

I swore i wouldn't.. but...

Ok. So for starters. The average size of an email is 75kbs - https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&channel=crow&q=average+email+size

Are you doing this deliberately?
kbs is a transmission speed. its not a measurement of size.
and its KB not kb. theres a difference.



It's estimated that around 205 billion emails are sent per day - https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&channel=crow&ei=9-rdXNSEJ-Gh1fAP1Mm5wAc&q=how+many+emails+sent+per+day&oq=how+many+emails+sent+per+day&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39j0l2j0i22i30l7.22883.26017..26161...0.0 ..0.166.2194.27j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i131j0i20i263.Htoq0vUgrT0

However, the issue with this statistic is that it includes ALL emails, including the countless number of duplicate spam emails. Which is estimated to make up around 55% of all emails - https://www.statista.com/statistics/270899/global-e-mail-spam-rate/

Now I think that it could reasonably be expected that if there are backup systems in place, they would have a filtering system for removing spam mail and their millions of duplicates.

So lets say 100 billion emails are actually stored per day. That rounds up to approximately 70 terabytes of data per day.

At 70KB and 205billion emails per day, that's 14 petabtes. remove half and its 7 petabytes. not 70 terabytes.



70 terabytes of data per day split up over multiple servers around the world is hardly unmanagable. An annual world wide cost of 218 million (or closer to 100 million) is absolutely nothing at all.

As for "sifting through it all". They don't need to. All emails are still linked to the individual accounts and even if that one individual has tens of thousands of emails. They can quickly identify the suspected emails by searching for very particular key words.

If you were a suspected terrorist, they would have no problem building up a profile of you. Even using emails that you thought were deleted years ago.
Storage is cheap. You've ignored (again) compute power, energy, and building costs.
Not to mention other data. and its growing exponentially.

(backup systems don't remove email. the back email up. Filtering and protection systems block (some) email.)

Your terminology (and maths) is all wrong so you clearly don't understand what you're discussing. You're either a brilliant wind up merchant or you haven't got a clue what you're on about. I can't quite decide.

[Moulin Yarns]

Can we ask the admins to move all the rubbish about emails and storage capacity to the technical help forum and allow us to get back to the day job? 😉

[JeMeSouviens]

I swore i wouldn't.. but...
.

Thank you for fighting the good fight of sanity and accuracy!

[jonty]

Can we ask the admins to move all the rubbish about emails and storage capacity to the technical help forum and allow us to get back to the day job? 😉

my apologies. conclusion is that its a tin foil hat. case closed.


Now, what have those pesky SNP been up to now..... I see that Nicola Sturgeon has 'liked' a post from Channel 4. Must mean that she wants to get rid of the BBC.

[ronaldo7]

my apologies. conclusion is that its a tin foil hat. case closed.


Now, what have those pesky SNP been up to now..... I see that Nicola Sturgeon has 'liked' a post from Channel 4. Must mean that she wants to get rid of the BBC.

Joanna cherry' s team are already on the case. Peter murrell is in hiding following an attempted coup.

[James310]

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/comment/entitlement-and-personal-ambition-risk-shifting-snp%E2%80%99s-focus-independence

Interesting piece covering some of the issues we have been discussing the last few weeks.

The new one to me was Salmond and Cherry starting a new Indy party, surely that would just split the Indy vote and makes no sense.

The author is pro Indy by the way before she is accused of something.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/comment/entitlement-and-personal-ambition-risk-shifting-snp%E2%80%99s-focus-independence

Interesting piece covering some of the issues we have been discussing the last few weeks.

The new one to me was Salmond and Cherry starting a new Indy party, surely that would just split the Indy vote and makes no sense.

The author is pro Indy by the way before she is accused of something.

I'm glad you think it makes no sense. The unionists are allowed 3 main parties, with the SNP and greens in support of independence.

A new independence party would allow more independence supporting list MPs at Holyrood.

Win win.

[James310]

I'm glad you think it makes no sense. The unionists are allowed 3 main parties, with the SNP and greens in support of independence.

A new independence party would allow more independence supporting list MPs at Holyrood.

Win win.

Do you think it's a serious possibility? I can't see how Salmond could be taken seriously again, even if he is found not guilty.

[ronaldo7]

Do you think it's a serious possibility? I can't see how Salmond could be taken seriously again, even if he is found not guilty.

No, I was just responding to your post. It also gives you a chance to vent about, salmond. ✌

[James310]

No, I was just responding to your post. It also gives you a chance to vent about, salmond. ✌

Well he is not exactly backwards in coming forward. His next move to keep himself in the limelight and relevant is a series of interviews with the likes of Craig Murray who is a bonkers conspiracy theorist, he was also in Bath recently so must be interviewing your favourite blogger as well.

[ronaldo7]

Well he is not exactly backwards in coming forward. His next move to keep himself in the limelight and relevant is a series of interviews with the likes of Craig Murray who is a bonkers conspiracy theorist, he was also in Bath recently so must be interviewing your favourite blogger as well.

Might as week cover all bases eh. Bath blogger, bonkers Murray, and snidey salmond. Who writes your material?

[Fife-Hibee]

Do you think it's a serious possibility? I can't see how Salmond could be taken seriously again, even if he is found not guilty.

Because in your world, somebody only has to be accused of guilt in order to be guilty. Even if they’re found innocent and relieved from all charges. Unless of course their politics chimes with your own.

[James310]

Because in your world, somebody only has to be accused of guilt in order to be guilty. Even if they’re found innocent and relieved from all charges. Unless of course their politics chimes with your own.

Must be hard when your hero has such a fall from grace.

I am saying even if he is innocent, we have seen with countless others that the stigma attached with being accused of serious sexual offences rarely just dissappears overnight.

[ronaldo7]

Must be hard when your hero has such a fall from grace.

I am saying even if he is innocent, we have seen with countless others that the stigma attached with being accused of serious sexual offences rarely just dissappears overnight.

But doing a Carmichael, who's found to be guilty of lying in ministerial office is somehow ok with you. So much so, you're even going to vote for his party this time around. #shallowstandards

[Fife-Hibee]

Must be hard when your hero has such a fall from grace.

I am saying even if he is innocent, we have seen with countless others that the stigma attached with being accused of serious sexual offences rarely just dissappears overnight.

So if he's guilty. He's guilty (and rightfully so).

If he's not guilty, then it's job done as far as you're concerned as his reputation will be perminantly damaged in the eyes of the general public?

I would dispute that second one. I believe if he's found innocent in all of this, then his support base in Scotland would solidify around him. Sure, there will be those clowns who will desperately continue to convince themselves that he's guilty in some way. But those are the same clowns who were never going to be on his side anyway.

[James310]

So if he's guilty. He's guilty (and rightfully so).

If he's not guilty, then it's job done as far as you're concerned as his reputation will be perminantly damaged in the eyes of the general public?

I would dispute that second one. I believe if he's found innocent in all of this, then his support base in Scotland would solidify around him. Sure, there will be those clowns who will desperately continue to convince themselves that he's guilty in some way. But those are the same clowns who were never going to be on his side anyway.

Maybe if he is found innocent he will launch that leadership bid with Cherry. You might be right and he could get that support back and be a force to be reckoned with again.

Are you #teamsalmond or #teamsturgeon?

[Fife-Hibee]

Maybe if he is found innocent he will launch that leadership bid with Cherry. You might be right and he could get that support back and be a force to be reckoned with again.

Are you #teamsalmond or #teamsturgeon?

I'm #teamindependence and will support whoever is prepared to take us there.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart/status/1132328403078733824?s=19

Classy stuff from James Dornan.

Incase your not on Twitter. He has a go at Boris Johnston, which is fair enough. But then replies to someone who says Boris will dissolve Holyrood with 'he would be too busy quaffing champagne and telling his new fag, my money is on Ross Thomson for that position, to keep still as he uses his back as a table'

Ross Thomson is of course gay.

Of course he will argue he was meaning fagging which takes place at schools such as Eton but a foolish comment for an elected official to make.

I see Fiona Robertson has replied asking James to DM her. She is the SNP equality convener. I can't imagine it's to congratulate him on such a witty tweet.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart/status/1132328403078733824?s=19

Classy stuff from James Dornan.

Incase your not on Twitter. He has a go at Boris Johnston, which is fair enough. But then replies to someone who says Boris will dissolve Holyrood with 'he would be too busy quaffing champagne and telling his new fag, my money is on Ross Thomson for that position, to keep still as he uses his back as a table'

Ross Thomson is of course gay.

Of course he will argue he was meaning fagging which takes place at schools such as Eton but a foolish comment for an elected official to make.

I see Fiona Robertson has replied asking James to DM her. She is the SNP equality convener. I can't imagine it's to congratulate him on such a witty tweet.

Extremely stupid thing to say and hopefully he is properly reprimanded for saying it. However, there's a lot of irony from the keyboard justice warriors in that comment section from people who you don't need to look too far into their profiles to see some of the most vile crap ever spouted.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart/status/1132328403078733824?s=19

Classy stuff from James Dornan.

Incase your not on Twitter. He has a go at Boris Johnston, which is fair enough. But then replies to someone who says Boris will dissolve Holyrood with 'he would be too busy quaffing champagne and telling his new fag, my money is on Ross Thomson for that position, to keep still as he uses his back as a table'

Ross Thomson is of course gay.

Of course he will argue he was meaning fagging which takes place at schools such as Eton but a foolish comment for an elected official to make.

I see Fiona Robertson has replied asking James to DM her. She is the SNP equality convener. I can't imagine it's to congratulate him on such a witty tweet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging

Ver clear apology from him on twitter.

[James310]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging

Ver clear apology from him on twitter.

Again defending the SNP, are you really a Green supporter?

[Fife-Hibee]

Again defending the SNP, are you really a Green supporter?

He never said he was defending him. He was simply pointing out that certain words have more than one definition and the definition described in that link would make sense within the context of what was tweeted.

[James310]

He never said he was defending him. He was simply pointing out that certain words have more than one definition and the definition described in that link would make sense within the context of what was tweeted.

You mean the exact same thing I pointed out in the original post.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart/status/1132328403078733824?s=19

Classy stuff from James Dornan.

Incase your not on Twitter. He has a go at Boris Johnston, which is fair enough. But then replies to someone who says Boris will dissolve Holyrood with 'he would be too busy quaffing champagne and telling his new fag, my money is on Ross Thomson for that position, to keep still as he uses his back as a table'

Ross Thomson is of course gay.

Of course he will argue he was meaning fagging which takes place at schools such as Eton but a foolish comment for an elected official to make.

I see Fiona Robertson has replied asking James to DM her. She is the SNP equality convener. I can't imagine it's to congratulate him on such a witty tweet.

You say "Ross Thompson is of course gay" why is that not homophobic?


Asking for a friend

[James310]

You say "Ross Thompson is of course gay" why is that not homophobic?


Asking for a friend

?

[Mibbes Aye]

You say "Ross Thompson is of course gay" why is that not homophobic?


Asking for a friend

Behave.

Though I appreciate you have a particular agenda against the poster you quoted.

Of all the Tory MPs, and in fairness there are a few, the SNP MSP chose to pick a Scottish Tory who is openly gay and made a comment that was wrong and clearly linked to his sexuality.

Poor stuff but equally as poor as your repeated goes at our Conservative-minded friend. Give it a rest please.

[allmodcons]

Behave.

Though I appreciate you have a particular agenda against the poster you quoted.

Of all the Tory MPs, and in fairness there are a few, the SNP MSP chose to pick a Scottish Tory who is openly gay and made a comment that was wrong and clearly linked to his sexuality.

Poor stuff but equally as poor as your repeated goes at our Conservative-minded friend. Give it a rest please.

Honest mistake?

https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart

[James310]

Honest mistake?

https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart

You can't apologise to people while at the same time accuse them of misunderstanding you. You either apologise for what you did because you made a mistake and realise this, or you don't.

Nobody writes the word 'fag' these days in reference to a gay man and does not understand what will be inferred. An elected official should know better.

Imagine if Murdo Fraser had said that Stewart McDonald was Ian Blackfords 'fag'. We would have a 10 page thread already.

[allmodcons]

You can't apologise to people while at the same time accuse them of misunderstanding you. You either apologise for what you did because you made a mistake and realise this, or you don't.

Nobody writes the word 'fag' these days in reference to a gay man and does not understand what will be inferred. An elected official should know better.

Imagine if Murdo Fraser had said that Stewart McDonald was Ian Blackfords 'fag'. We would have a 10 page thread already.

How do you know he hasn't heard the term 'fag' used in the context of a gay man before?

[James310]

How do you know he hasn't heard the term 'fag' used in the context of a gay man before?

Are you being serious?

[allmodcons]

Are you being serious?

That's what he's saying. To be honest it's not a term I hear used that often if at all.
Do you really think he'd be stupid enough to tweet something as crass as that if he knew that the term 'fag' was a derogatory term for a gay man?

[James310]

That's what he's saying. To be honest it's not a term I hear used that often if at all.
Do you really think he'd be stupid enough to tweet something as crass as that if he knew that the term 'fag' was a derogatory term for a gay man?

I don't believe for one minute he never knew the word 'fag' was a derogatory term for a gay man. He is a man that has lived in Glasgow all his life and is a massive Celtic fan so will have heard colourful language throughout his life.

He is not the brightest MSP so it would not surprise me.

Would you be defending a tory if they had said it about a SNP MP? No chance.

[allmodcons]

I don't believe for one minute he never knew the word 'fag' was a derogatory term for a gay man. He is a man that has lived in Glasgow all his life and is a massive Celtic fan so will have heard colourful language throughout his life.

He is not the brightest MSP so it would not surprise me.

Would you be defending a tory if they had said it about a SNP MP? No chance.

I'm not defending him and, for the record, would never defend a Tory.

I just can't believe someone in his position would tweet that knowing the term was offensive. Even if he's "not the brightest" which I suspect is your opinion of most SNP politicians it beggars belief that he'd be that stupid.

[Sylar]

You can't apologise to people while at the same time accuse them of misunderstanding you. You either apologise for what you did because you made a mistake and realise this, or you don't.

Nobody writes the word 'fag' these days in reference to a gay man and does not understand what will be inferred. An elected official should know better.

Imagine if Murdo Fraser had said that Stewart McDonald was Ian Blackfords 'fag'. We would have a 10 page thread already.

You take a lot of abuse on here (wrongly as far as I'm concerned), and once again I find myself agreeing with one of your posts.

It's a complete apology-non-apology. Nobody can be so ignorant to not understand the power that word has in LGBTQ+ circles. It utterly beggars belief that someone who's grown up in place as viscous and unwelcoming at times could possibly not understand the gravity of the word - ESPECIALLY if he has as many gay family/friends as he claims.

If he's that stupid, he should be removed from office (as that level of ignorance is dangerous). If he's ****ed up and been rightly called out for it, he should be removed from office for being a bigot. It wouldn't matter what party he represented, he's wrong and his 'apology' doesn't cut it.

[allmodcons]

You take a lot of abuse on here (wrongly as far as I'm concerned), and once again I find myself agreeing with one of your posts.

It's a complete apology-non-apology. Nobody can be so ignorant to not understand the power that word has in LGBTQ+ circles. It utterly beggars belief that someone who's grown up in place as viscous and unwelcoming at times could possibly not understand the gravity of the word - ESPECIALLY if he has as many gay family/friends as he claims.

If he's that stupid, he should be removed from office (as that level of ignorance is dangerous). If he's ****ed up and been rightly called out for it, he should be removed from office for being a bigot. It wouldn't matter what party he represented, he's wrong and his 'apology' doesn't cut it.

Precisely my point, he surely can't be that stupid?

[James310]

Precisely my point, he surely can't be that stupid?

I am sure over the years he has been on many equality training courses and done his annual online diversity training like a lot of us will do.

If I called a gay man at my work a 'fag' and then inferred in the same conversation they were on their hands and knees I would be sacked.

[James310]

You take a lot of abuse on here (wrongly as far as I'm concerned), and once again I find myself agreeing with one of your posts.

It's a complete apology-non-apology. Nobody can be so ignorant to not understand the power that word has in LGBTQ+ circles. It utterly beggars belief that someone who's grown up in place as viscous and unwelcoming at times could possibly not understand the gravity of the word - ESPECIALLY if he has as many gay family/friends as he claims.

If he's that stupid, he should be removed from office (as that level of ignorance is dangerous). If he's ****ed up and been rightly called out for it, he should be removed from office for being a bigot. It wouldn't matter what party he represented, he's wrong and his 'apology' doesn't cut it.

I do take a lot of abuse, from a few in particular, but I guess they find it difficult when I prove that they are wrong.

Agreed, you either apologise for a mistake and accept it, you don't apologise and then immediately blame everyone else for misunderstanding you.

[Fife-Hibee]

You can't apologise to people while at the same time accuse them of misunderstanding you. You either apologise for what you did because you made a mistake and realise this, or you don't.

Nobody writes the word 'fag' these days in reference to a gay man and does not understand what will be inferred. An elected official should know better.

Imagine if Murdo Fraser had said that Stewart McDonald was Ian Blackfords 'fag'. We would have a 10 page thread already.

Hey never made a mistake though, did he?

Those who misunderstood his post did. So they should all be apologizing to him. (Including yourself).

[allmodcons]

I am sure over the years he has been on many equality training courses and done his annual online diversity training like a lot of us will do.

If I called a gay man at my work a 'fag' and then inferred in the same conversation they were on their hands and knees I would be sacked.

Look, I'm not defending him, I just think he may not have heard the term before. He's 66, not much younger than my old man, and I'm fairly sure my father would never have heard that term before (I'll ask him next time I see him). Does JD have any previous for this? Has he made ANY homophobic comments before? If not, and he's aware of the term 'fag' in the context of gay men, he hasn't half steamed right in!

Regarding the workplace argument, if you were defending yourself on the same basis as JD is, believe me, your Employer would not find it that easy to sack you.

Anyway, can we close this one off now? If he's a homophobe he's an arse and should resign or be sacked. If he's genuinely not heard the term 'fag' before in the context of gay men then I don't see any reason why he should resign.

[Sylar]

Look, I'm not defending him, I just think he may not have heard the term before. He's 66, not much younger than my old man, and I'm fairly sure my father would never have heard that term before (I'll ask him next time I see him). Does JD have any previous for this? Has he made ANY homophobic comments before? If not, and he's aware of the term 'fag' in the context of gay men, he hasn't half steamed right in!

Regarding the workplace argument, if you were defending yourself on the same basis as JD is, believe me, your Employer would not find it that easy to sack you.

Anyway, can we close this one off now? If he's a homophobe he's an arse and should resign or be sacked. If he's genuinely not heard the term 'fag' before in the context of gay men then I don't see any reason why he should resign.

He champions his "ally" credentials by citing a number of gay friends and family members. If he moves in such circles, it's absolutely beyond doubt he knows of (and the potency behind) 'fag' in this sense. Anyone who has friends from the LGBTQ+ community have heard the countless stories of abuse, vitriol and prejudice they face, particularly through less progressive times than just now. Plus, any diversity training programmes cover these types of issues/topics. If he is genuinely so ignorant to the word (which is pretty commonplace sadly as a homophobic slur), he shouldn't be a politician in 2019...and again, that's irrespective of which party colours he's wearing.

[allmodcons]

He champions his "ally" credentials by citing a number of gay friends and family members. If he moves in such circles, it's absolutely beyond doubt he knows of (and the potency behind) 'fag' in this sense. Anyone who has friends from the LGBTQ+ community have heard the countless stories of abuse, vitriol and prejudice they face, particularly through less progressive times than just now. Plus, any diversity training programmes cover these types of issues/topics. If he is genuinely so ignorant to the word (which is pretty commonplace sadly as a homophobic slur), he shouldn't be a politician in 2019...and again, that's irrespective of which party colours he's wearing.

Look, we'll have to agree to disagree here. I do not think anybody, irrespective of party colours, should be sacked, or is unfit for public office, simply because they have not heard the term 'fag' before.

[Peevemor]

So now you can't use the word fag in the public/boarding school sense? I haven't seen the original tweet, but I doubt he was suggesting that somebody is gay. Things have to be taken in context.

[Sylar]

Look, we'll have to agree to disagree here. I do not think anybody, irrespective of party colours, should be sacked, or is unfit for public office, simply because they have not heard the term 'fag' before.

More than happy to do so AMC - it's Sunday night and I'm more interested in the outcomes of Thursday's elections than ponder what Mr Dornan may or may not have meant. I maintain he can't claim to be an ally to the gay community and NOT know the word in that context, but one can only speculate how accurate that is or isn't.

Have a good evening :agree:

[Sylar]

So now you can't use the word fag in the public/boarding school sense? I haven't seen the original tweet, but I doubt he was suggesting that somebody is gay. Things have to be taken in context.

That he used it in relation to an openly gay Conservative MP was perhaps just unfortunate...

I'll wholeheartedly confess I was unaware of the context of the word in relation to the public school sense. Commoner that I am :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

I’m with allmodcons on this one...he’s surely not that stupid to have used the word in a homophobic sense.

But on the other hand he clearly is rather stupid not to have seen the clear danger in his sentence construct as it seems highly unlikely he has never heard the term fag used in a derogatory way.

His apology is also a bit pathetic...’far too many gay family and friends’...a sentence that somehow makes me immediately wonder just how many of his family are actually gay.

His apology also reminded me of Danny Bakers recent faux pas where he also claimed to have never conceived of the connotations linked to his tweet. That cost him his job.

Anyhoo I’m minded to think it was an honest if rather bizarre and careless error, one which I’m sure he’s rather embarrassed about and one that hardly shows him in a good light which ever way you look at it.

I bet he rather wishes he hadn’t bothered dabbling in reverse class snobbery today.

[allmodcons]

More than happy to do so AMC - it's Sunday night and I'm more interested in the outcomes of Thursday's elections than ponder what Mr Dornan may or may not have meant. I maintain he can't claim to be an ally to the gay community and NOT know the word in that context, but one can only speculate how accurate that is or isn't.

Have a good evening :agree:

Aye, you too Sylar.

[Hibrandenburg]

I am sure over the years he has been on many equality training courses and done his annual online diversity training like a lot of us will do.

If I called a gay man at my work a 'fag' and then inferred in the same conversation they were on their hands and knees I would be sacked.

What about if you called a gay man at work gay who was straight and he took offence to being called homosexual. Semantics is a minefield. Is he guilty of homophobia? I don't think so but he's at the very least naive.

[Fife-Hibee]

The comment section is a good laugh.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48438132

[James310]

The comment section is a good laugh.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48438132

What a great advert for the Union, we in Scotland can spend more per person on the elderly and disabled than the rest of the UK and provide 'free' personal care for the elderly. Good shout.

[Fife-Hibee]

What a great advert for the Union, we in Scotland can spend more per person on the elderly and disabled than the rest of the UK and provide 'free' personal care for the elderly. Good shout.

Now it only Scotland had been able to spend all of the tax revenues that it had raised over the past 4 decades instead of having it squandered on wars, nuclear weapons and austerity policies from parties we reject on "our behalf".

Not such a great advert when you look at it that way.

[JeMeSouviens]

Once the Brexiteers are in charge, Barnett will be under serious threat:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-referendum-results-tories-call-on-pm-to-renege-on-reckless-funding-vow-9745078.html


Asked about the Barnett formula in an interview the London Mayor Boris Johnson said he was “keen on a Barnett formula that does justice to Barnet with one T”.


former Environment Secretary Own Paterson was also scathing about the “chaotic manner” in which the No vote had been won ... "Maintaining the Barnett formula, under which the Scottish receive £1,600 per head more than the English, and expecting English taxpayers, who are struggling to make ends meet, to keep footing the bill is unjust. Such a lopsided constitutional settlement cannot last; it is already causing real anger across England. If not resolved fairly for all the constituent parts of the UK for the long term, it will fall apart."

[Fife-Hibee]

Once the Brexiteers are in charge, Barnett will be under serious threat:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-referendum-results-tories-call-on-pm-to-renege-on-reckless-funding-vow-9745078.html

They love talking about how much more Scotland gets per head. But completely overlook the average input per head over the past 4 decades.

The UK is indebted to Scotland to the tune of around 200 billion pounds. They're more than welcome to scrap the barnett formula after they cough it up.

[Moulin Yarns]

See the SNP and their NHS targets.

NHS Tayside is so bad that I have had to wait less than 21 days between going to my GP with strange symptoms and getting a CT scan today. That is shocking, I wonder how the anti-SNP brigade will spin it. :wink:


In other words, I will be absent for most of today

[Fife-Hibee]

See the SNP and their NHS targets.

NHS Tayside is so bad that I have had to wait less than 21 days between going to my GP with strange symptoms and getting a CT scan today. That is shocking, I wonder how the anti-SNP brigade will spin it. :wink:


In other words, I will be absent for most of today

Ridiculous! :grr: You'd be done and dealt with within 5 minutes under the Tory English NHS! #voteTory


PS Hope it goes well. :agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

See the SNP and their NHS targets.

NHS Tayside is so bad that I have had to wait less than 21 days between going to my GP with strange symptoms and getting a CT scan today. That is shocking, I wonder how the anti-SNP brigade will spin it. :wink:


In other words, I will be absent for most of today

Fingers crossed it's nothing to worry about, MY.

[ronaldo7]

See the SNP and their NHS targets.

NHS Tayside is so bad that I have had to wait less than 21 days between going to my GP with strange symptoms and getting a CT scan today. That is shocking, I wonder how the anti-SNP brigade will spin it. :wink:


In other words, I will be absent for most of today

Take it easy mate. We've put in 43% more cash into social care for the elderly in Scotland than those in the English NHS.

You'll be well looked after.

[Moulin Yarns]

Take it easy mate. We've put in 43% more cash into social care for the elderly in Scotland than those in the English NHS.

You'll be well looked after.

Who are you calling elderly 🤔😉

Checking for possible mini stroke. How bad can it be sticking your head in a donut.

[Hibrandenburg]

See the SNP and their NHS targets.

NHS Tayside is so bad that I have had to wait less than 21 days between going to my GP with strange symptoms and getting a CT scan today. That is shocking, I wonder how the anti-SNP brigade will spin it. :wink:


In other words, I will be absent for most of today

Hope your results are good news.

[ronaldo7]

Who are you calling elderly 🤔😉

Checking for possible mini stroke. How bad can it be sticking your head in a donut.

I didn't have any emojis on my phone to show how young you're feeling. 👹

[stoneyburn hibs]

See the SNP and their NHS targets.

NHS Tayside is so bad that I have had to wait less than 21 days between going to my GP with strange symptoms and getting a CT scan today. That is shocking, I wonder how the anti-SNP brigade will spin it. :wink:


In other words, I will be absent for most of today

Hope it's all good.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ridiculous! :grr: You'd be done and dealt with within 5 minutes under the Tory English NHS! #voteTory


PS Hope it goes well. :agree:


Fingers crossed it's nothing to worry about, MY.


Take it easy mate. We've put in 43% more cash into social care for the elderly in Scotland than those in the English NHS.

You'll be well looked after.


Hope your results are good news.


Hope it's all good.


Thanks all.

Back home and now I have to wait until the middle of June before hearing the results. I'm not sure there's anything to worry about, fingers crossed.


Meanwhile, I see this from Holyrood



There is no clear understanding of what is needed to deliver welfare payments to Scotland's expected 1.4 million claimants, Audit Scotland has said.
The warning from the spending watchdog comes as the Scottish government prepares to take over control of 11 benefits from the UK government.
So far almost £90m has been spent on delivering the new benefits system.
However, Audit Scotland said it was still unclear what the overall cost would be.
In its report (http://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/uploads/docs/report/2019/nr_190502_social_security.pdf), the spending watchdog said that while the delivery of the first two benefits to be taken on by Social Security Scotland had gone well, the real challenge lay ahead.
Ministers have previously denied their timetable for implementing the new benefits' rollout was unrealistic (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47402292).




Upcoming is Derek McKay to deliver his second ever medium term financial strategy

[Moulin Yarns]

Derek Mackay says Brexit, austerity and a "hostile" approach to immigration continue to set the context for the strategy.
"Austerity is a choice and not one of Scotland's making", he says, adding it is counter-productive.
Uncertainty is leading to subdued growth and leaving the EU will only compound that, Mr Mackay says.
He confirms the Scottish Fiscal Commission has downgraded its forecast due to this uncertainty, with growth of 0.8% expected for 2019.



Official figures from the Scottish government show the economy grew by 1.3% in 2018.
Growth is close to the UK figure of 1.4%.
The latest publication (https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/QNA2018Q4)
from Scotland's chief statistician confirms the original estimate of 0.3% growth in the final quarter, but revises downwards the overall 2018 figure from 1.4%.
The report indicates the services sector and construction continued to grow, but production fell by 0.8%

[McD]

Thanks all.

Back home and now I have to wait until the middle of June before hearing the results. I'm not sure there's anything to worry about, fingers crossed.


Meanwhile, I see this from Holyrood





Upcoming is Derek McKay to deliver his second ever medium term financial strategy



hope the results bring good news when they come

[lapsedhibee]

Look, I'm not defending him, I just think he may not have heard the term before. He's 66, not much younger than my old man, and I'm fairly sure my father would never have heard that term before (I'll ask him next time I see him).

Would be absolutely amazed if you're right about your dad.

[cabbageandribs1875]

hopefully decent turnout today


22103


https://www.thenational.scot/news/17677892.english-scots-for-yes-herald-auobs-first-ever-galashiels-march/?ref=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook


A SIZEABLE contingent from the English Scots for Yes group from Dumfries and Galloway will be marching in Galashiels today.

English Scots for Yes regional organiser John Schofield has welcomed the fact that English people from across the region will be marching in the All Under One Banner event in Galashiels.

[cabbageandribs1875]

well done nicola hen, quite right


22112




#doonesajid:)

[Speedy]

That he used it in relation to an openly gay Conservative MP was perhaps just unfortunate...

I'll wholeheartedly confess I was unaware of the context of the word in relation to the public school sense. Commoner that I am :greengrin

Likewise. Had to google it after reading Peevemor's post.

Just goes to show how language means very different things to different people.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Spain now saying they wouldn't block an independent Scotland joining the EU


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17688206.spanish-government-will-not-block-independent-scotlands-eu-membership/



He also stressed that an independent Scotland would not have to join a queue in order to become a full EU member.


tis all good

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48543313

What a sorry story this is. Quite how she thought embezzlement on such a scale from somebody in her position could go unnoticed is baffling.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48543313

What a sorry story this is. Quite how she thought embezzlement on such a scale from somebody in her position could go unnoticed is baffling.

:agree: Unreal.

[marinello59]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48543313

What a sorry story this is. Quite how she thought embezzlement on such a scale from somebody in her position could go unnoticed is baffling.

Greedy, stupid and dishonest. She has let down so many people who trusted her. Stealing donations intended for a food bank seems particularly nasty.

[stokesmessiah]

Greedy, stupid and dishonest. She has let down so many people who trusted her. Stealing donations intended for a food bank seems particularly nasty.

I also hate how it seems to be acceptable to tack depression and anxiety onto it, like that's an excuse.

There has been some major strides in tacking mental health issues but it seems to have gone off on a tangent of late where it is almost becoming cool to be depressed, or it is one size fits all excuse every time something goes wrong in someone's life. It just cheapens the whole thing.

Sorry, I am blowing off course.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48543313

What a sorry story this is. Quite how she thought embezzlement on such a scale from somebody in her position could go unnoticed is baffling.

Utterly despicable.

[cabbageandribs1875]

dreadful what she done, i do feel some compassion with her just having a miscarriage, i hope she gets professional help whilst behind bars for that, might have been a bit wiser not to find herself pregnant knowing she could be facing a possible jail term whilst already suffering from depression and anxiety, i'l leave my thoughts at that.

[weecounty hibby]

A disgraceful act from her. Mitigating circumstances? Maybe. But doesn't take away from the fact that she stole from her own and also the most disadvantaged in society.

[ronaldo7]

A disgraceful act from her. Mitigating circumstances? Maybe. But doesn't take away from the fact that she stole from her own and also the most disadvantaged in society.

I don't think there were any mitigating circumstances when she was filling her boots.

She deserves all that's coming to her.

[weecounty hibby]

I don't think there were any mitigating circumstances when she was filling her boots.

She deserves all that's coming to her.
Yeah, agreed. I'm not saying I agree with any of the excuses or denials or anything like that. She absolutely deserves everything she gets

[Tornadoes70]

I actually feel sorry for her. Her actions were truly reprehensible and deserves condemnation however I hope she learns from this and manages to turn her life around after serving her time.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's interesting how her tory husband never get's mentioned. Who knows what hand he had to play in all of this.

[marinello59]

It's interesting how her tory husband never get's mentioned. Who knows what hand he had to play in all of this.

:rolleyes:

[Smartie]

It's interesting how her tory husband never get's mentioned. Who knows what hand he had to play in all of this.

I'm guessing nothing, given the forces of law have not pursued him in any way?

I think I need a new foil hat.

[G B Young]

It's interesting how her tory husband never get's mentioned. Who knows what hand he had to play in all of this.

Why would the spouse of any convicted criminal get mentioned unless it was relevant to the case? You're on dangerous ground if you start throwing around unfounded allegations based, as far as I can see, on nothing more than the fact he's (apparently) a Tory.

I know nothing of McGarry's personal life but on the face of it being left as a single dad while your wife's in prison for some pretty despicable behaviour (behaviour which her child will come to learn of as she gets older) is something I'd suggest deserves some sympathy rather than wild and completely unfounded speculation.

[cabbageandribs1875]

It's interesting how her tory husband never get's mentioned. Who knows what hand he had to play in all of this.



i do like bashing the tories but it doesn't matter really which political party he is attached to, he did receive 4k in to his account from her iirc ? , quite sure he knew what she was up to, but no point sending both a small kids parents to the clink, not a good sign for her mental health when she's still pleading her innocence

[weecounty hibby]

It's interesting how her tory husband never get's mentioned. Who knows what hand he had to play in all of this.

Mate, I dislike the tories as much as anyone and have been known to defend the SNP often but this time she cannot be defended and deflecting anything on to her husband, Tory or not, is poor. I'm sure if he was complicit the in depth investigation would have uncovered that.

[Ozyhibby]

Not really about McGarry specifically but this sort of crime should not result in jail. It would far more sense for her to be put on an electronic tag which is still a significant punishment but would allow her to maintain a family life, possibly work if she chose to and generally contribute to society. It would also save the tax payer significant amounts of money. I don’t see how anyone benefits from sending her to jail.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Not really about McGarry specifically but this sort of crime should not result in jail. It would far more sense for her to be put on an electronic tag which is still a significant punishment but would allow her to maintain a family life, possibly work if she chose to and generally contribute to society. It would also save the tax payer significant amounts of money. I don’t see how anyone benefits from sending her to jail.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

She has done herself no favours though by continuing to protest her innocence despite pleading guilty and showing no remorse except for herself.
But I do agree that we should be looking at alternatives to jail time wherever possible.

[Smartie]

Not really about McGarry specifically but this sort of crime should not result in jail. It would far more sense for her to be put on an electronic tag which is still a significant punishment but would allow her to maintain a family life, possibly work if she chose to and generally contribute to society. It would also save the tax payer significant amounts of money. I don’t see how anyone benefits from sending her to jail.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know that people have a lot to say about deterrents, but.....

Imagine you had access to significant sums of money. If you dip into it and nobody notices, your lifestyle might be immeasurably better. Imagine you think you're probably smart enough to get away with nobody noticing either. If you do get caught, you wear a tag, retain family life, continue in gainful employment.

Is it worth the risk?

People with access to significant amounts of money need deterrents to stop them carrying out dishonest behaviour.


She has a law degree, is an intelligent person and gained the trust of people. She chose to breach that trust, and I know little of her personal circumstances to know whether her decision to breach that trust may have any sort of mitigation deserving of sympathy.

If a court has found her guilty and given an appropriate sentence. We can feel sorry for her child, but the reason that child will be without their mother, the reason a party will be without someone who merited being elevated into relatively lofty positions, various jobs will be without their employee is because of her actions alone.

We need to live with the consequences of our actions.

[Ozyhibby]

I know that people have a lot to say about deterrents, but.....

Imagine you had access to significant sums of money. If you dip into it and nobody notices, your lifestyle might be immeasurably better. Imagine you think you're probably smart enough to get away with nobody noticing either. If you do get caught, you wear a tag, retain family life, continue in gainful employment.

Is it worth the risk?

People with access to significant amounts of money need deterrents to stop them carrying out dishonest behaviour.


She has a law degree, is an intelligent person and gained the trust of people. She chose to breach that trust, and I know little of her personal circumstances to know whether her decision to breach that trust may have any sort of mitigation deserving of sympathy.

If a court has found her guilty and given an appropriate sentence. We can feel sorry for her child, but the reason that child will be without their mother, the reason a party will be without someone who merited being elevated into relatively lofty positions, various jobs will be without their employee is because of her actions alone.

We need to live with the consequences of our actions.

Wearing a tag is still a significant withdrawal of liberty. Being stuck in the house every night from 7pm without ever being able to go out would be difficult to get used to. Long term I think it would be more beneficial to society.


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[marinello59]

This probably should have had a thread of its own. It’s not SNP nonsense, it’s a crime committed by a person who happened to be a member of the SNP. Every single party has people who behave badly. It’s quite refreshing to note that apart from one poster nobody today has tried to score political points from this.

[lord bunberry]

Not really about McGarry specifically but this sort of crime should not result in jail. It would far more sense for her to be put on an electronic tag which is still a significant punishment but would allow her to maintain a family life, possibly work if she chose to and generally contribute to society. It would also save the tax payer significant amounts of money. I don’t see how anyone benefits from sending her to jail.


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I completely agree. Prison should only be for people who are a danger to society. I’ve made this point a few times on here, but as it stands we still don’t have an alternative to prison. Putting people on a tag isn’t a proper punishment in itself unless the person is giving something back to the community.

[Ozyhibby]

I completely agree. Prison should only be for people who are a danger to society. I’ve made this point a few times on here, but as it stands we still don’t have an alternative to prison. Putting people on a tag isn’t a proper punishment in itself unless the person is giving something back to the community.

Going to work is contributing to society. Failing that there should be work programmes that people can participate in. Sending folk to jail for non violent crimes just seems counter productive in so many ways.


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[JimBHibees]

Going to work is contributing to society. Failing that there should be work programmes that people can participate in. Sending folk to jail for non violent crimes just seems counter productive in so many ways.


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I think it is the deterrent aspect for her and others and also the position she held that jail would be considered appropriate. Would have more sympathy if someone down on her luck and struggling to feed a family however this is someone in a powerful position who used that position to be able to do what she did.

[ronaldo7]

This probably should have had a thread of its own. It’s not SNP nonsense, it’s a crime committed by a person who happened to be a member of the SNP. Every single party has people who behave badly. It’s quite refreshing to note that apart from one poster nobody today has tried to score political points from this.

The case of, Yvonne Kucuk, springs to mind, an ex councillor from Glasgow, embezzling over £8k from local charities, in Dalmarnock. Her and her partner skipped jail time, and were ordered to do over 200 hours of community work. They were also housebound from 7pm to 7am

[G B Young]

Going to work is contributing to society. Failing that there should be work programmes that people can participate in. Sending folk to jail for non violent crimes just seems counter productive in so many ways.


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Where do you draw the line though? For example, if Robert Maxwell hadn't died before the black hole in the Mirror Group pension fund was discovered, there would have been a public outcry if he had been given a work programme rather than a jail sentence. That's perhaps an extreme example of somebody appropriating money which isn't theirs and using it for their own perks, but as others have said it's about finding an appropriate deterrent. Judging by the coverage of the case, McGarry appears to have felt no remorse, only self-pity, and you wonder if a work programme would really suffice when it came to driving home the message that what she did was a disgrace. Most, I suspect, would agree that a custodial sentence is appropriate here.

[G B Young]

The case of, Yvonne Kucuk, springs to mind, an ex councillor from Glasgow, embezzling over £8k from local charities, in Dalmarnock. Her and her partner skipped jail time, and were ordered to do over 200 hours of community work. They were also housebound from 7pm to 7am

How punitive would that actually be these days? Humiliating perhaps, but given the wealth of Netflix box sets on offer you could probably while away your 'sentence' quite agreeably!

[ronaldo7]

How punitive would that actually be these days? Humiliating perhaps, but given the wealth of Netflix box sets on offer you could probably while away your 'sentence' quite agreeably!

I wasn't making a judgement on the sentence. Just telling it as it happened.

[Ozyhibby]

How punitive would that actually be these days? Humiliating perhaps, but given the wealth of Netflix box sets on offer you could probably while away your 'sentence' quite agreeably!

Three years of having to home every single night, no nights out, going for a meal, cinema, pub, going to watch your kid play footy or in the school play. I would say that would be more than a little inconvenient but it would be far more beneficial for all concerned than spending time in jail.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I completely agree. Prison should only be for people who are a danger to society. I’ve made this point a few times on here, but as it stands we still don’t have an alternative to prison. Putting people on a tag isn’t a proper punishment in itself unless the person is giving something back to the community.

We do have Community Payback Orders which don’t just include unpaid work but can also include the likes of compulsory attendance for drug treatment and a bunch of other things, if relevant.

Scottish Government is implementing a policy known as a presumption against shorter sentences, whereby what historically would have been a short sentence is replaced by a CPO.

One of the big challenges is ensuring CPOs are effectively managed and monitored across the country and as so much of the process sits within criminal justice social work it seems reasonable to expect that the workload within CJSW will expand if there is a rise in CPOs. Therefore for CPOs to work there would need to be increased resourcing of CJSW.

[James310]

Spain now saying they wouldn't block an independent Scotland joining the EU


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17688206.spanish-government-will-not-block-independent-scotlands-eu-membership/



He also stressed that an independent Scotland would not have to join a queue in order to become a full EU member.


tis all good

It's so good he has been sacked for saying it. So I think the statement 'Spain' saying they would not block an independent Scotland was a little bit misleading perhaps....?

https://twitter.com/josepgoded/status/1137057374970273794?s=19

[Tornadoes70]

It's so good he has been sacked for saying it. So I think the statement 'Spain' saying they would not block an independent Scotland was a little bit misleading perhaps....?

https://twitter.com/josepgoded/status/1137057374970273794?s=19

That's mental. Sacked by Spain for mentioning the snp's quest for separatism/independence. The snp are also currently locked in a developing battle with the Irish government over Irish fishermen casting in the disputed territories of Rockall.

Just a taster for what would happen if we turned our backs on the rest of the UK and trusted instead in mainland Europe to look our for us.

:crazy:

[Callum_62]

Wrong thread

[James310]

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1139448688311451649

Why is Wings saying that 'the additional rapes and sexual assaults which will inescapably follow are Nicola Sturgeons responsibility'

Saw something about this Self ID legislation potentially leading to lots of people leaving the SNP.

What's going on!? Self ID legislation is what exactly? Men can call themselves women and women can call themselves men and have same legal rights etc.? So a man can identify themselves as a women and freely use the women's toilets and changing rooms etc.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1139448688311451649

Why is Wings saying that 'the additional rapes and sexual assaults which will inescapably follow are Nicola Sturgeons responsibility'

Saw something about this Self ID legislation potentially leading to lots of people leaving the SNP.

What's going on!? Self ID legislation is what exactly? Men can call themselves women and women can call themselves men and have same legal rights etc.? So a man can identify themselves as a women and freely use the women's toilets and changing rooms etc.Have rapes in NZ risen significantly?

The UK is archaic in its thinking

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[James310]

Have rapes in NZ risen significantly?

The UK is archaic in its thinking

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I have no idea, it's a subject I don't know much about but I seem to be seeing more and more about it. Seems like it's going to be a big issue.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1139448688311451649

Why is Wings saying that 'the additional rapes and sexual assaults which will inescapably follow are Nicola Sturgeons responsibility'

Saw something about this Self ID legislation potentially leading to lots of people leaving the SNP.

What's going on!? Self ID legislation is what exactly? Men can call themselves women and women can call themselves men and have same legal rights etc.? So a man can identify themselves as a women and freely use the women's toilets and changing rooms etc.

Getting absolute pelters all over the place. WoS is Nothing to do with the snp, and I have no idea what he is on about.

[James310]

Getting absolute pelters all over the place. Nothing to do with the snp, and I have no idea what he is on about.

It's new government legislation, who is in government?

So having read a bit more it's around people being able to self identify their own gender. It's controversial because some people believe, I guess Wings does as well, it will lead to an increase in rapes and sexual assualt as men will be able to access places like female toilets and changing rooms far easier as they can self identify themselves as women.

Couple of replies to Wings.

"If @theSNP and @NicolaSturgeon force this through then they will lose me and my familys membership and most likely our votes as well. If the snp won't listen to a majority of people that are against this then I would understand why people would go against them"

"This will literally be the thing that kills them. I wont be voting for people who wont even discuss this with us. A secretive "consultation" that has drawn in 15k views apparantly. Who knew about this consultation cos I ****ing didnt? It was obviously spread through their gang"

"Then that's when I, and many others, will cancel membership + stop giving them additional money when they ask for it! They can sell their own raffle tickets and deliver their own leaflets-I will have nothing more to do with @NicolaSturgeon the great diminisher of women's rights."

"They can kiss my membership and vote goodbye. I feel as strongly about this issue as I do independence. Self-ID is an affront to women’s rights. @theSNP @DavidHTorrance"

"I’ll never vote for any unionist party & can’t vote Green. I’m still a member (just) but can’t see how they’ll survive w a majority let alone win Indy once folk see what self ID involves. Consultation was overrun by trans rights groups inc tons of replies from America/Canada."

[James310]

I think it must be a first where nobody has anything to say about this, nearly a whole day after posting.

Where are our resident SNP fans to tell us it's nothing to see, these people threatening to leave the party are just extremists on the fringes? Are they?

Can I assume people know very little about this, which is worrying and backs up a point above that this is being hushed through by the Government. Seems like a big deal for many, but obviously nobody here?

[lord bunberry]

I think it must be a first where nobody has anything to say about this, nearly a whole day after posting.

Where are our resident SNP fans to tell us it's nothing to see, these people threatening to leave the party are just extremists on the fringes? Are they?

Can I assume people know very little about this, which is worrying and backs up a point above that this is being hushed through by the Government. Seems like a big deal for many, but obviously nobody here?
It’s not a nothing to see issue. It’s something I completely disagree with, but I also think it’s been blown completely out of proportion. As a man it will have no effect on me, but I can see why women would be very uneasy about a man who identifies as a woman using the same toilet as them. I know I wouldn’t be comfortable sending my daughter into that type of situation.
The whole thing seems like madness to me.

[Future17]

I think it must be a first where nobody has anything to say about this, nearly a whole day after posting.

Where are our resident SNP fans to tell us it's nothing to see, these people threatening to leave the party are just extremists on the fringes? Are they?

Can I assume people know very little about this, which is worrying and backs up a point above that this is being hushed through by the Government. Seems like a big deal for many, but obviously nobody here?

I can't speak for "resident SNP fans" but I haven't heard anything about it before. That doesn't surprise me though as that applies to the vast majority of government consultations which don't directly affect my life.

From what I've read, the Scottish Government plans to announce the legislation in the next couple of weeks. It would probably be sensible to await that announcement before reacting.

[James310]

I can't speak for "resident SNP fans" but I haven't heard anything about it before. That doesn't surprise me though as that applies to the vast majority of government consultations which don't directly affect my life.

From what I've read, the Scottish Government plans to announce the legislation in the next couple of weeks. It would probably be sensible to await that announcement before reacting.

Well it looks very much like a man or women can self identify their gender. So a man could in theory use the women's toilets and changing rooms unchallenged and legally just because they decided they were a women.

[Future17]

Well it looks very much like a man or women can self identify their gender. So a man could in theory use the women's toilets and changing rooms unchallenged and legally just because they decided they were a women.

I'll probably wait on the detail of how that's expected to work in practice before rushing to judgement.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm like future17, it's not been much in the news.

But

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17694067.scottish-labour-leader-i-support-self-id-for-trans-people/


https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/11/26/scotland-self-id-law-consultation/


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-people-will-no-longer-need-doctors-to-determine-gender-vdsbt5ml2

[cabbageandribs1875]

at least 7k at the AUOB Oban march today


221792218022181


:aok:

[Jack]

Well it looks very much like a man or women can self identify their gender. So a man could in theory use the women's toilets and changing rooms unchallenged and legally just because they decided they were a women.

There's been mixed sex toilets and changing rooms for decades both here and abroad. Changing rooms in shops in Edinburgh and London 40 years ago, toilets in Spain at the same time, mixed changing rooms at public baths in Germany 30 years ago that I've witnessed. However I think this legislation would be introduced for reasons much deeper than the occasional creeps, who have been around much longer, loitering around the wrong bog!

[James310]

There's been mixed sex toilets and changing rooms for decades both here and abroad. Changing rooms in shops in Edinburgh and London 40 years ago, toilets in Spain at the same time, mixed changing rooms at public baths in Germany 30 years ago that I've witnessed. However I think this legislation would be introduced for reasons much deeper than the occasional creeps, who have been around much longer, loitering around the wrong bog!

Really? So men can enter the female toilets in Edinburgh today? Are you sure?

We are not talking about cubicles next to each other that men and women can use, but men walking into the ladies toilets as they themselves have decided they identify themselves as women. Men being sent to female prisons as they self identify as women, men turning up at a female refuge places and having to be legally allowed in as they self identify as women.

[Jack]

Really? So men can enter the female toilets in Edinburgh today? Are you sure?

We are not talking about cubicles next to each other that men and women can use, but men walking into the ladies toilets as they themselves have decided they identify themselves as women. Men being sent to female prisons as they self identify as women, men turning up at a female refuge places and having to be legally allowed in as they self identify as women.

Not sure about now but there was at least one mixed sex toilet in Edinburgh some years ago.

There isn't a female prison in Scotland.

I'm fairly certain anyone abusing the law for nefarious purposes will be found out, as they are now.


I'm not quite sure what your issue is. If it's people identifying as the opposite sex from the one they were born, or no sex at all, it's already happening. Is there any evidence out there to back up any claims that these people are self identifying for reasons that are already illegal?

It's a non issue for people who accept others for what they are - criminals aside.

[Moulin Yarns]

Funny how every party supports this gender self id in Scotland, apart from one.

There may be some weirdos but it looks like the only ones that think there are going to be major problems are those that don't beleive in any form of self determination, in any form. :wink:

[James310]

Not sure about now but there was at least one mixed sex toilet in Edinburgh some years ago.

There isn't a female prison in Scotland.

I'm fairly certain anyone abusing the law for nefarious purposes will be found out, as they are now.


I'm not quite sure what your issue is. If it's people identifying as the opposite sex from the one they were born, or no sex at all, it's already happening. Is there any evidence out there to back up any claims that these people are self identifying for reasons that are already illegal?

It's a non issue for people who accept others for what they are - criminals aside.

I am not sure if you are deliberately being obtuse or not. No female prisons in Scotland? What is Corton Vale? Do men and women share wings and cells today?

But that's not the point, it's a man being sent to a female prison, living side by side with females. So a rapist could say I am a female, I identify myself as female now so legally do they need to be sent to a female prison? That what the legislation seems to suggest.

I think we all need to understand it more, but to brush it off with comments like I think there is one mixed toilet in Edinburgh years ago so it's no big deal and then failing to actually understand what it means shows me you really don't understand it.

[lord bunberry]

Really? So men can enter the female toilets in Edinburgh today? Are you sure?

We are not talking about cubicles next to each other that men and women can use, but men walking into the ladies toilets as they themselves have decided they identify themselves as women. Men being sent to female prisons as they self identify as women, men turning up at a female refuge places and having to be legally allowed in as they self identify as women.
The changing rooms at portobello swim centre has mixed changing rooms and shower area already and has done for years. I think this will be the way forward.

[James310]

Funny how every party supports this gender self id in Scotland, apart from one.

There may be some weirdos but it looks like the only ones that think there are going to be major problems are those that don't beleive in any form of self determination, in any form. :wink:

Going by the comments I posted it seems like a vote loser for your party the SNP.

[James310]

The changing rooms at portobello swim centre has mixed changing rooms and shower area already and has done for years. I think this will be the way forward.

That's again missing the point. Do men freely walk into the ladies toilets?

As a man that might be fine for you, what about the rights of women? Should there be no safe spaces for women at all now?

[lord bunberry]

That's again missing the point. Do men freely walk into the ladies toilets?

As a man that might be fine for you, what about the rights of women? Should there be no safe spaces for women at all now?
They don’t, but I was making the point that it’s possible to have mixed facilities. I don’t like the idea of men using the ladies toilet either as i said earlier. I think we all need to wait and see what’s being proposed before jumping to conclusions.

[James310]

They don’t, but I was making the point that it’s possible to have mixed facilities. I don’t like the idea of men using the ladies toilet either as i said earlier. I think we all need to wait and see what’s being proposed before jumping to conclusions.

They don't, but under this law they can.

Let's wait and see.

[Callum_62]

That's again missing the point. Do men freely walk into the ladies toilets?

As a man that might be fine for you, what about the rights of women? Should there be no safe spaces for women at all now?Based on my experience in NZ its not just became a heaven for randy guys to start kicking about the women's toilets

I mean this has been done probably 5 or more years ago

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[Jack]

I am not sure if you are deliberately being obtuse or not. No female prisons in Scotland? What is Corton Vale? Do men and women share wings and cells today?

But that's not the point, it's a man being sent to a female prison, living side by side with females. So a rapist could say I am a female, I identify myself as female now so legally do they need to be sent to a female prison? That what the legislation seems to suggest.

I think we all need to understand it more, but to brush it off with comments like I think there is one mixed toilet in Edinburgh years ago so it's no big deal and then failing to actually understand what it means shows me you really don't understand it.

Cornton Vale closed some time ago.

As always prisoners are managed to minimise the threat to themselves and others.

I really think it's you that's failing to understand. Your concern appears to be about activities that are already illegal and nothing at all to do with the proposed legislation.

Anyway as you've obviously never been in a mixed toilet let me reassure you. The ladies still use cubicles. There's no requirement for them to use the urinals.

[Smartie]

This is a pretty complex issue and one that I've found it hard to make my mind up on. Viewing the world through the eyes of a heterosexual male can make it difficult to get to grips with the nuances of such a situation.

I have sympathy with people who have gender identification issues.

I also though have sympathy with females (and it particularly seems to annoy lesbians) who have issues with someone who used to be a guy rocking up and and saying "hiya, I'm one of you now" and getting their kit off next to them in a female only changing room. There are changing rooms and then there are changing rooms - we're not talking about unisex changing rooms where people get changed in cubicles but there are many other situations where females simply feel more comfortable in the company of other females only (females, as in those who were born female).

The SNP have done a bit of a ham-fisted job of this, and appear to have pissed a lot of people off. It is a touchy subject but it is one that shouldn't affect all that many people so I'm surprised it's been allowed to have blown up into what it has.

[James310]

Cornton Vale closed some time ago.

As always prisoners are managed to minimise the threat to themselves and others.

I really think it's you that's failing to understand. Your concern appears to be about activities that are already illegal and nothing at all to do with the proposed legislation.

Anyway as you've obviously never been in a mixed toilet let me reassure you. The ladies still use cubicles. There's no requirement for them to use the urinals.

I wonder if women are as comfortable as you around these changes. After all it impacts them far more than it would me or you.

[Jack]

I wonder if women are as comfortable as you around these changes. After all it impacts them far more than it would me or you.

None of the ladies that frequent the forum have considered it important enough to comment so far. I wouldn't dare to presume how they might feel.

Edit. I'm not sure what sex any of the responders have been so maybe they have!

[Moulin Yarns]

I wonder if women are as comfortable as you around these changes. After all it impacts them far more than it would me or you.


For whatever reason it has exercised your imagination a lot. It wouldn't be just to try and score points? I mean, Tornadoes is missing for a week so perhaps you feel you need to double your efforts.

I have not followed the issue in the media, but I am convinced you are over reacting and that there will be safeguards in place to prevent any of the offences you imagine will happen from taking place

As it is, all parties at Holyrood are supportive of this, except for the obvious, and there has been a period of public consultation on the issue, did you respond?

[ronaldo7]

They don't, but under this law they can.

Let's wait and see.

Jeez, your just like Ruth, firstly your asking why nobody is discussing your post on the subject, next it's let's wait and see.

Mair flip flop than Thailand.

[Moulin Yarns]

It might be worth looking a bit at the background to the Gender Recognition Act.

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/inside-politics/gender-recognition-act-transphobia-and-scotland



If you are trans, and you want to change your birth certificate to accurately represent your gender, you need a Gender Recognition Certificate. The process for getting one is lengthy, tedious and expensive. Even with assistance from experts, applicants who meet the eligibility criteria regularly fail to satisfy the requirements of the panel which makes the decision, often multiple times. Right to appeal is extremely limited, so most who fail will need to re-apply and pay the fee again. The expense varies, but with GPs and gender identity specialists charging up to £80 for a report, the cost can quickly mount.

At present, trans people can already change their gender on driving licenses, passports, and school and medical records without recourse to a psychiatric assessment. However, under the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, changing your birth certificate requires an applicant to receive a psychiatric diagnosis and to provide a detailed psychiatric report about their life history, current circumstances and identity in order to prove they are the gender they say they are.

Does any of that make it seem possible that it will lead to a large number of men attempting to enter female changing rooms or toilets? The point of the act is to make easier for people who identify as trans or other to do so without the bureaucracy. For the Conservative party to try and block the act is deplorable. IMHO

[James310]

For whatever reason it has exercised your imagination a lot. It wouldn't be just to try and score points? I mean, Tornadoes is missing for a week so perhaps you feel you need to double your efforts.

I have not followed the issue in the media, but I am convinced you are over reacting and that there will be safeguards in place to prevent any of the offences you imagine will happen from taking place

As it is, all parties at Holyrood are supportive of this, except for the obvious, and there has been a period of public consultation on the issue, did you respond?

Trying to close down debate again, because you don't like I dared suggest maybe this has not been thought through well. I never saw you having a go at the others who have critised it, funny that. Like another poster said it's like you have a weird obsession with me, kinda creepy. Put me on ignore.

[Moulin Yarns]

Trying to close down debate again, because you don't like I dared suggest maybe this has not been thought through well. I never saw you having a go at the others who have critised it, funny that. Like another poster said it's like you have a weird obsession with me, kinda creepy. Put me on ignore.


I apologise for replying to your post, but it happened to be the one I did. If you think it is personal, feel free to report me and try and get me banned.

HOWEVER YOU REPEATEDLY SAID IT WILL LEAD TO MEN ENTERING FEMALE FACILITIES WHICH IS NOT HOW IT WILL WORK


As Rape Crisis Scotland chief executive Sandy Brindley told Common Space: “I think the most important thing to say is that [the proposed legal changes] should make no difference to the provision of women-only services – that’s where some confusion has arisen. There isn’t any Rape Crisis which would ask to see documentation of gender.”






She added: “I just can’t see anyone abusing self-declaration. It’s a statutory declaration, and it’s just not going to happen. To be honest, I think the anxiety around that is similar to what I would call false allegations of rape. It’s a non-threat.”

[Moulin Yarns]

In case anyone is wondering if there are any positives to the Gender Recognition Act, rather than all the perceived negatives being spouted on this thread.



Obviously, these changes will not rid Scotland, or the UK, where Theresa May’s government is considering similar changes, of transphobia. Yet for young trans people, the reforms could represent the first step on a journey towards greater equality. Emily, 19, says she has been deterred from getting a gender recognition certificate under the current system, and would support the changes, but argues that more needs to be done to improve the atmosphere in which trans people live. Alongside the Scottish Trans Alliance, groups such as Trans Parents, which supports parents of young people that have come out as trans, have also helped improve understanding, while Edinburgh recently hosted Scotland’s first Trans Pride event to raise awareness of trans rights. For her part, Emily identifies LGBT Youth Scotland as an important source of support as she was coming out.

[Moulin Yarns]

Trying to close down debate again, because you don't like I dared suggest maybe this has not been thought through well. I never saw you having a go at the others who have critised it, funny that. Like another poster said it's like you have a weird obsession with me, kinda creepy. Put me on ignore.

I'm revisiting this post, James, if you don't mind.


Trying to close down debate again If you mean, actually pointing out the truth, then yes, I am.


I dared suggest maybe this has not been thought through well. Well no, it has been thought through, it is just that some people have not understood. I have linked to a very well put together website that actually explains it that some might well read before posting on here their own opinions.


I never saw you having a go at the others who have critised it Forgive me for missing others who have critisised it, only your vociferous opposition brought your posts to the surface.


Like another poster said it's like you have a weird obsession with me, Sorry, but if you post rubbish you will be called out on it.

Do your research and post well researched post, don't, and accept the consequences

[James310]

I'm revisiting this post, James, if you don't mind.

If you mean, actually pointing out the truth, then yes, I am.

Well no, it has been thought through, it is just that some people have not understood. I have linked to a very well put together website that actually explains it that some might well read before posting on here their own opinions.

Forgive me for missing others who have critisised it, only your vociferous opposition brought your posts to the surface.

Sorry, but if you post rubbish you will be called out on it.

Do your research and post well researched post, don't, and accept the consequences

It's not rubbish, it's the concerns of many women's groups. Would you pitch up to a women's group and tell them it's rubbish and they have nothing to worry about?

https://womansplaceuk.org/response-to-scottish-review-of-the-gra/


Protecting women-only spaces

We believe that the principle of women only spaces must be upheld and, where necessary, extended. Transgender individuals should have the same rights as anyone else to be free from discrimination, to access the services that they need and to be treated with dignity and respect. However, moving to a process of self-declaration risks unintended consequences for the safety and wellbeing of women and girls.

If the Scottish Government were to go ahead with the proposed simplification of the gender recognition process, and move towards a self-declaration system, it would raise the prospect that predatory men could demand access to women only spaces and services such as refuges, sexual violence centres/services, prisons, single sex hospital wards, and other shared sleeping spaces, such as shared rooms in care settings and hostel dormitories, simply by claiming to identify as a woman, whether or not this was the case. There is already evidence that this this is happening in the prison service in the UK. For instance, after introducing a gender inclusion policy, voyeurism-related offences increased significantly in Target stores in the USA [1].


So would you tell this group to their face they are talking rubbish? Bet you wouldn't.

I am sure a lot of women's groups would take great offence that you as a man dismiss their concerns as rubbish. Your also dismissing all those online comments from women who have concerns as rubbish.

If that's what you believe though fair enough.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's not rubbish, it's the concerns of many women's groups. Would you pitch up to a women's group and tell them it's rubbish and they have nothing to worry about?

https://womansplaceuk.org/response-to-scottish-review-of-the-gra/


Protecting women-only spaces

We believe that the principle of women only spaces must be upheld and, where necessary, extended. Transgender individuals should have the same rights as anyone else to be free from discrimination, to access the services that they need and to be treated with dignity and respect. However, moving to a process of self-declaration risks unintended consequences for the safety and wellbeing of women and girls.

If the Scottish Government were to go ahead with the proposed simplification of the gender recognition process, and move towards a self-declaration system, it would raise the prospect that predatory men could demand access to women only spaces and services such as refuges, sexual violence centres/services, prisons, single sex hospital wards, and other shared sleeping spaces, such as shared rooms in care settings and hostel dormitories, simply by claiming to identify as a woman, whether or not this was the case. There is already evidence that this this is happening in the prison service in the UK. For instance, after introducing a gender inclusion policy, voyeurism-related offences increased significantly in Target stores in the USA [1].


So would you tell this group they are talking rubbish? Bet you wouldn't. I am sure a lot of women's groups would take great offence that you as a man dismiss their concerns as rubbish.

So, I closed the debate did I?

That is the group response to the consultation. I've seen it. I assume that they will give the same response to the Westminster government.

It will be taken into account during the next stage, as will all responses.

What are your views on the people that the act is going to help?

[James310]

So, I closed the debate did I?

That is the group response to the consultation. I've seen it. I assume that they will give the same response to the Westminster government.

It will be taken into account during the next stage, as will all responses.

What are your views on the people that the act is going to help?

Answer the question, are they talking rubbish and their concerns are to be dismissed. Would you tell them that to their faces?

You said:

HOWEVER YOU REPEATEDLY SAID IT WILL LEAD TO MEN ENTERING FEMALE FACILITIES WHICH IS NOT HOW IT WILL WORK

Yet here is a group expressing that very concern.

Are their concerns not justified then as you seem certain it won't work like that, why are you so certain?

You even put it in capital letters to make such a point, so share with us why you are so certain.

[Moulin Yarns]

Answer the question, are they talking rubbish and their concerns are to be dismissed. Would you tell them that to their faces?

You said:

HOWEVER YOU REPEATEDLY SAID IT WILL LEAD TO MEN ENTERING FEMALE FACILITIES WHICH IS NOT HOW IT WILL WORK

Yet here is a group expressing that very concern.
Are their concerns not justified then as you seem certain it won't work like that, why are you so certain?

Answer the question?

You've got a cheek!!!!!

That is a concern raised but as seen in the context of the legislation, is not what the aim of the legislation is for. As people have not bothered to read the legislation or responses to the consultation have failed to realise is, the whole point of the legislation is to enable the marginalised population to register themselves how they themselves feel better fits their gender.

I can't believe that people are against this.

The smokescreen that this is going to allow perverts access to women's toilets is so weird that it is not even worth accepting.

If people can't accept that the lgbt+ community do not deserve the dignity of being able to self identification then god help us.

[James310]

Answer the question?

You've got a cheek!!!!!

That is a concern raised but as seen in the context of the legislation, is not what the aim of the legislation is for. As people have not bothered to read the legislation or responses to the consultation have failed to realise is, the whole point of the legislation is to enable the marginalised population to register themselves how they themselves feel better fits their gender.

I can't believe that people are against this.

The smokescreen that this is going to allow perverts access to women's toilets is so weird that it is not even worth accepting.

If people can't accept that the lgbt+ community do not deserve the dignity of being able to self identification then god help us.

A concern raised on the government legislation proposal is not a concern in the context of the legislation? Are you serious.

So that group are talking rubbish and have missed the point, their concerns are unfounded and without merit. That's what you are saying.

I bet you wouldn't tell that to their faces.

As a man you seem to have very strong views on what should concern women and what should not concern them.

[Callum_62]

As a man you seem to have very strong views on what should concern women and what should not concern them.

What about female to male trans?

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Amazing who has developed a sudden interest in trans rights, eh?

[James310]

What about female to male trans?

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

What about them? What's your question?

[Callum_62]

This isn't a 1 way street of pervy guys just waiting to say "I'm a wummin Ye Ken" before running into the female changing rooms to catch a glimpse at some snatch

The suggestion to me is as ludicrous as saying everyone will identify as a lamp or opening up marriage to same sex couples will lead to everyone marrying animals

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Amazing who has developed a sudden interest in trans rights, eh?

Except, they haven't!!!!!

[Moulin Yarns]

A concern raised on the government legislation proposal is not a concern in the context of the legislation? Are you serious.

So that group are talking rubbish and have missed the point, their concerns are unfounded and without merit. That's what you are saying.

I bet you wouldn't tell that to their faces.

As a man you seem to have very strong views on what should concern women and what should not concern them.

Just stop talking bollocks.

Get back to the subject.

The rights of the minority groups in our community.

The consultation has finished, did you take part?

If not then why are you complaining on a forum?

The trans community have rights, but the Conservative government deny them. Why?

The consultation is complete, those who responded will be given due regard, idiots who didn't will be ignored.

[James310]

This isn't a 1 way street of pervy guys just waiting to say "I'm a wummin Ye Ken" before running into the female changing rooms to catch a glimpse at some snatch

The suggestion to me is as ludicrous as saying everyone will identify as a lamp or opening up marriage to same sex couples will lead to everyone marrying animals

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

So are the concerns of the women's group unfounded?

[Moulin Yarns]

So are the concerns of the women's group unfounded?

No, reference to previous replies. 😁👍

[Moulin Yarns]

For the sole antagonistic poster, I will be away for the next couple of days.

[James310]

Just stop talking bollocks.

Get back to the subject.

The rights of the minority groups in our community.

The consultation has finished, did you take part?

If not then why are you complaining on a forum?

The trans community have rights, but the Conservative government deny them. Why?

The consultation is complete, those who responded will be given due regard, idiots who didn't will be ignored.

Deflect, deflect and deflect.

Simple yes or no will do, you said in big bold capital letters.

HOWEVER YOU REPEATEDLY SAID IT WILL LEAD TO MEN ENTERING FEMALE FACILITIES WHICH IS NOT HOW IT WILL WORK

Yet a women's group have raised that as a big concern for them with evidence from the US to back it up. But you seem to think that their concerns are unfounded and without merit. Is that true?

Now or course if you say No then you are contradicting yourself, if you say Yes them why did you make that statement in capitals in the first place?

So is it Yes or No? Are their concerns unfounded and without merit?

[Moulin Yarns]

Deflect, deflect and deflect.

Simple yes or no will do, you said in big bold capital letters.

HOWEVER YOU REPEATEDLY SAID IT WILL LEAD TO MEN ENTERING FEMALE FACILITIES WHICH IS NOT HOW IT WILL WORK

Yet a women's group have raised that as a big concern for them with evidence from the US to back it up. But you seem to think that their concerns are unfounded and without merit. Is that true?

Now or course if you say No then you are contradicting yourself, if you say Yes them why did you make that statement in capitals.

So is it Yes or No? Are their concerns unfounded and without merit?

Round, like a circle....

[James310]

Round, like a circle....

Well if you don't answer the questions. You have got yourself in a bit of a mess, suggesting one thing and then contradicting yourself. Even suggesting what women should and should not be concerned about.

Have a good evening.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well if you don't answer the questions. You have got yourself in a bit of a mess, suggesting one thing and then contradicting yourself. Even suggesting what women should and should not be concerned about.

Have a good evening.

And to you.

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/inside-politics/gender-recognition-act-transphobia-and-scotland

[Hibrandenburg]

Deflect, deflect and deflect.

Simple yes or no will do, you said in big bold capital letters.

HOWEVER YOU REPEATEDLY SAID IT WILL LEAD TO MEN ENTERING FEMALE FACILITIES WHICH IS NOT HOW IT WILL WORK

Yet a women's group have raised that as a big concern for them with evidence from the US to back it up. But you seem to think that their concerns are unfounded and without merit. Is that true?

Now or course if you say No then you are contradicting yourself, if you say Yes them why did you make that statement in capitals in the first place?

So is it Yes or No? Are their concerns unfounded and without merit?

You really are getting your knickers/boxers (don't care which) in a twist about this aren't you. I'd imagine that there's many options for the local perve to get some cheapies if he was really determined to do so. I'd suspect donning a dress and some frilly underwear will be pretty far rdown his list.

[James310]

You really are getting your knickers/boxers (don't care which) in a twist about this aren't you. I'd imagine that there's many options for the local perve to get some cheapies if he was really determined to do so. I'd suspect donning a dress and some frilly underwear will be pretty far rdown his list.

So like the others you dismiss the concerns of women's groups and think it's funny to make references to men wearing dresses and frilly underwear. That shows a total lack of understanding, I am not sure the women's groups who have serious concerns would appreciate your attitude.

Another man telling women what they should or should not be concerned about.

[James310]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48037152

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47960446

Even some members of the SNP have concerns, let's not bring the debate down to men in dresses and frilly underwear.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48037152

Even some members of the SNP have concerns, let's not bring the debate down to men in dresses and frilly underwear.

But that's you're doing. You're the one ignoring the very real issues and discrimination transgender folks have to live with. You're the one suggesting that granting them the right to live their lives as the sex they believe they are would open the door for hordes of perverts to dress up as women and run riot in female reserved areas. Of course there will be concerns from a small percentage of people but from my experience you'll find most people are informed well enough not to get their preferred choice of underwear knotted.

[Moulin Yarns]

We all have concerns, but some of us are concerned about the minorities the act is aimed at protecting.

#justsaying

[James310]

We all have concerns, but some of us are concerned about the minorities the act is aimed at protecting.

#justsaying

I thought you had gone for a few days.

You can protect the minorities but don't ignore the majority.

What makes you so qualified to tell women what they should or should not be concerned about?

They have concerns, like many on here you seem to be happy to tell women what they should be concerned about or not. How would you like a women to tell you what you should be concerned about or not?

[Moulin Yarns]

I thought you had gone for a few days.

You can protect the minorities but don't ignore the majority.

What makes you so qualified to tell women what they should or should not be concerned about?

They have concerns, like many on here you seem to be happy to tell women what they should be concerned about or not. How would you like a women to tell you what you should be concerned about or not?

It's clear you have not bothered to read the link I sent. The legislation which is being introduced is for those people who wish to be registered as a specific gender, not to let any Tom, dick, Harry or James to say I fancy hanging around ladies toilets.

Not forgetting the Westminster government wants to do the same, and that's your tories for you, letting any Tom, dick, Harry and John hang around the ladies toilets 😉

[James310]

It's clear you have not bothered to read the link I sent. The legislation which is being introduced is for those people who wish to be registered as a specific gender, not to let any Tom, dick, Harry or James to say I fancy hanging around ladies toilets.

Not forgetting the Westminster government wants to do the same, and that's your tories for you, letting any Tom, dick, Harry and John hang around the ladies toilets 😉

You still here.

So the SNP MPs concerns are also unfounded then?

But just dismiss everything because you know what's best for women. You tell them.

[Fife-Hibee]

You still here.

So the SNP MPs concerns are also unfounded then?

But just dismiss everything because you know what's best for women. You tell them.

I'm sure women can decide what's best for them when they go to the ballot box each and every election. You should be delighted that this policy is going to be some utter disaster, that should get the pesky SNP out of government.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Well it looks very much like a man or women can self identify their gender. So a man could in theory use the women's toilets and changing rooms unchallenged and legally just because they decided they were a women.

It also means women can use the mens toilets/changing rooms, I'm all for it. 😉

[allmodcons]

Amazing who has developed a sudden interest in trans rights, eh?

:greengrin or not

[7 Up]

Amazing who has developed a sudden interest in trans rights, eh?

And amazing how many men have developed a sudden concern for women's rights now that it's seen as a convenient way to attack trans rights.

Scottish Women's Aid and Rape Crisis Scotland both support the proposed reforms. I'm inclined to trust their expertise.

[James310]

Well well well....I could go back and dreg up all the old posts (well maybe a few) and show how wrong you all were, but there is no need. All those who told me I was wrong and he needed no proof? Well you were all wrong. What a humiliation for him (and some on here as well)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48664373


SNP MEP Alyn Smith has issued an "unreserved" apology over his allegation that the Brexit Party is a "money laundering front"

Brexit Party chairman Richard Tice threatened to sue Mr Smith over the claim, which he made in a TV interview.

Mr Smith has now admitted he did not have any evidence to support his claim.

He has agreed to pay a "significant" contribution to Mr Tice's legal costs, and will also make a donation to the Help for Heroes charity.

Mr Smith was being interviewed on Sky News following last month's European Elections when he claimed that the Brexit Party - which is led by Nigel Farage - was "a shell company that's a money laundering front".

Brexit Party chief threatens to sue MEP
He went on to claim that "the only question about the Brexit Party now is which laws they've broken and where their campaign finances have come from".

Mr Tice instructed his lawyers to demand an apology from Mr Smith for his "utterly false and highly damaging" comments.


Mr Smith initially attempted to mount a defence on the legal precedent that political parties do not have the power to sue in defamation proceedings.

He also said he wanted to see a "full, open and transparent inquiry into the funding of Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party".

But after further legal letters were exchanged, Mr Smith agreed to issue an apology and to withdraw his allegations.

In a statement published by his solicitors, he said it was "not my intention" to make allegations against Mr Tice personally, but said that "having reflected upon this" he would "apologise unreservedly to him and withdraw my allegation".

He said: "I am happy to state clearly that I do not have any evidence to support such an allegation. I spoke in the heat of the moment and am happy to set the record straight."

Mr Tice - who was also elected to the European Parliament in May's elections - said he was pleased that Mr Smith had apologised and "withdrawn these wholly unfounded and damaging allegations".

He added: "People are entitled to take a different view of Brexit and I respect their right to do so. But I will not hesitate to take action against those who make false claims about the Brexit Party, and by implication those of us who run it."

The two sides agreed to keep their full financial settlement confidential, but the Brexit Party said Mr Smith had contributed "significantly" to Mr Tice's legal costs as well as making a charity donation to Help For Heroes.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Well well well....I could go back and dreg up all the old posts (well maybe a few) and show how wrong you all were, but there is no need. All those who told me I was wrong and he needed no proof? Well you were all wrong. What a humiliation for him (and some on here as well)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48664373


SNP MEP Alyn Smith has issued an "unreserved" apology over his allegation that the Brexit Party is a "money laundering front"

Brexit Party chairman Richard Tice threatened to sue Mr Smith over the claim, which he made in a TV interview.

Mr Smith has now admitted he did not have any evidence to support his claim.

He has agreed to pay a "significant" contribution to Mr Tice's legal costs, and will also make a donation to the Help for Heroes charity.

Mr Smith was being interviewed on Sky News following last month's European Elections when he claimed that the Brexit Party - which is led by Nigel Farage - was "a shell company that's a money laundering front".

Brexit Party chief threatens to sue MEP
He went on to claim that "the only question about the Brexit Party now is which laws they've broken and where their campaign finances have come from".

Mr Tice instructed his lawyers to demand an apology from Mr Smith for his "utterly false and highly damaging" comments.


Mr Smith initially attempted to mount a defence on the legal precedent that political parties do not have the power to sue in defamation proceedings.

He also said he wanted to see a "full, open and transparent inquiry into the funding of Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party".

But after further legal letters were exchanged, Mr Smith agreed to issue an apology and to withdraw his allegations.

In a statement published by his solicitors, he said it was "not my intention" to make allegations against Mr Tice personally, but said that "having reflected upon this" he would "apologise unreservedly to him and withdraw my allegation".

He said: "I am happy to state clearly that I do not have any evidence to support such an allegation. I spoke in the heat of the moment and am happy to set the record straight."

Mr Tice - who was also elected to the European Parliament in May's elections - said he was pleased that Mr Smith had apologised and "withdrawn these wholly unfounded and damaging allegations".

He added: "People are entitled to take a different view of Brexit and I respect their right to do so. But I will not hesitate to take action against those who make false claims about the Brexit Party, and by implication those of us who run it."

The two sides agreed to keep their full financial settlement confidential, but the Brexit Party said Mr Smith had contributed "significantly" to Mr Tice's legal costs as well as making a charity donation to Help For Heroes.

Well done James, maybe a walk of shame ala Game of thrones could be organized for guilty posters.

[James310]

Well done James, maybe a walk of shame ala Game of thrones could be organized for guilty posters.

I think the fact I was proved right and they were so wrong will be painful enough for many, don't want to rub it in too much. I guess most will just ignore and carry on.

[Smartie]

I think the fact I was proved right and they were so wrong will be painful enough for many, don't want to rub it in too much. I guess most will just ignore and carry on.

Now THAT is a lie.

:wink:

[James310]

Now THAT is a lie.

:wink:

Well maybe..😃

[allmodcons]

Well well well....I could go back and dreg up all the old posts (well maybe a few) and show how wrong you all were, but there is no need. All those who told me I was wrong and he needed no proof? Well you were all wrong. What a humiliation for him (and some on here as well)



You are entitled to feel vindicated and, perhaps, pleased when you 'score a point' in an online debate but crowing really?

Just plain cringeworthy.

[James310]

You are entitled to feel vindicated and, perhaps, pleased when you 'score a point' in an online debate but crowing really?

Just plain cringeworthy.

For the amount of abuse and flack I take I think I am entitled to crow a bit when numerous posters were taking the p**s and telling me how wrong I was, when I was completely right. Get over it.

[Fife-Hibee]

For the amount of abuse and flack I take I think I am entitled to crow a bit when numerous posters were taking the p**s and telling me how wrong I was, when I was completely right. Get over it.

How were you right? You said there’d be court action, there hasn’t been. He took the moral high ground by issuing an undue apology. Nothing would have happened if he hadn’t.

[G B Young]

How were you right? You said there’d be court action, there hasn’t been. He took the moral high ground by issuing an undue apology. Nothing would have happened if he hadn’t.

Is it not the case that Smith has actually ceded the moral high ground to the Brexit Party by admitting he simply made up his claims 'in the heat of the moment'?

I haven't read anything about this other than the BBC report posted above, but based on that it seems clear that had the Brexit Party chairman decided to sue then Smith wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. By issuing an unreserved apology, withdrawing his allegations, paying Tice's legal costs and making a significant donation to charity I think it's fair to say he knows he wouldn't have fared too well had this ended up in court.

It was rather childish behaviour in the first place from a guy with Smith's political experience, although you only need to watch PMQs and witness the braying jackasses across all parties to realise that most politicians often behave like overgrown children.

[Fife-Hibee]

Is it not the case that Smith has actually ceded the moral high ground to the Brexit Party by admitting he simply made up his claims 'in the heat of the moment'?

I haven't read anything about this other than the BBC report posted above, but based on that it seems clear that had the Brexit Party chairman decided to sue then Smith wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. By issuing an unreserved apology, withdrawing his allegations, paying Tice's legal costs and making a significant donation to charity I think it's fair to say he knows he wouldn't have fared too well had this ended up in court.

It was rather childish behaviour in the first place from a guy with Smith's political experience, although you only need to watch PMQs and witness the braying jackasses across all parties to realise that most politicians often behave like overgrown children.

He never at any moment conceded to "making them up". He could be absolutely correct. It's unlikely that we'll ever know though, seeing as the UKIP2 party don't wish to present their accounts to a court of law.

[Mr Grieves]

Is it not the case that Smith has actually ceded the moral high ground to the Brexit Party by admitting he simply made up his claims 'in the heat of the moment'?

I haven't read anything about this other than the BBC report posted above, but based on that it seems clear that had the Brexit Party chairman decided to sue then Smith wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. By issuing an unreserved apology, withdrawing his allegations, paying Tice's legal costs and making a significant donation to charity I think it's fair to say he knows he wouldn't have fared too well had this ended up in court.

It was rather childish behaviour in the first place from a guy with Smith's political experience, although you only need to watch PMQs and witness the braying jackasses across all parties to realise that most politicians often behave like overgrown children.

I agree. I think there are questions to be asked about Brexit party funding but to make accusations like that is asking for trouble

[RyeSloan]

He never at any moment conceded to "making them up". He could be absolutely correct. It's unlikely that we'll ever know though, seeing as the UKIP2 party don't wish to present their accounts to a court of law.

I know things work differently in your world but an admission of ‘I do not have any evidence to support such an allegation’ means, to most people, that he just made it up.

[Callum_62]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farages-brexit-party-told-16536061.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

I know things work differently in your world but an admission of ‘I do not have any evidence to support such an allegation’ means, to most people, that he just made it up.

There's a difference between not having evidence and not having evidence that will stand up in court. He may well have valid reasons to believe what he said. But he'll know better than you or me whether it would stand up in court or not.

[allmodcons]

For the amount of abuse and flack I take I think I am entitled to crow a bit when numerous posters were taking the p**s and telling me how wrong I was, when I was completely right. Get over it.

I've nothing to get over 310. It's the first time I've commented on the issue.

I just don't like to see people crowing. As I said, it's embarrassing.

If you're the type that thinks it's acceptable behaviour then c'est la vie.

[Just Alf]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farages-brexit-party-told-16536061.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkAs per everything... The actual truth sits somewhere in the middle.

On one hand we can't 'prove' there's illegal funding going on but we know the system being used could allow it to happen.

On the other hand it could be that everything is more or less 100% above board (nobody would pull them up for the odd rule breaker - it's not really the party's fault). The fact that they don't want to show to everyone they're on the level begs a question, bottom line though is that's the party's choice how people perceive them.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

There's a difference between not having evidence and not having evidence that will stand up in court. He may well have valid reasons to believe what he said. But he'll know better than you or me whether it would stand up in court or not.

It's pretty obvious that it wouldn't stand up in court or he wouldn't have apologised and admitted he didn't have any evidence to support his allegation when threatened with legal action.