Tories are lying *******s (warning may contain traces of Tory)

[Fife-Hibee]

I guess the next few months will tell us where we are at ?

Because the past several years haven't told us enough apparently. :confused:

[Moulin Yarns]

Just how depressing do things have to get until enough people in Scotland have had enough?

Here's hoping for this one to be telling the truth.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48596991

[makaveli1875]

Just how depressing do things have to get until enough people in Scotland have had enough?

Do people actually get depressed about politics ?

A friend wants to know

[Hibrandenburg]

Do people actually get depressed about politics ?

A friend wants to know

I have a friend who had to fight several months to get his disability allowance continued. He's pretty depressed.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Boris Johnson as prime minister would be proof positive that accident of birth is still incredibly significant in Britain. Here is someone who believed from childhood that he would be prime minister; that he was born to it and it's his right. Imagine growing up being so secure of your place in the world, confident that, like so many Old Etonians, you are born to rule. What an embarrassment to this country, which totally undermines the lip service politicians pay to a supposed meritocracy and equality of opportunity. Our society remains medieval in so many ways, as the luck of draw continues to determine one's destiny. As a Conservative Johnson wishes to conserve this state of affairs. I despise him and the values he represents.

[James310]

So if Boris gets his tax cut it means higher public spending in Scotland. Now hands up those who were fooled by the SNPs false claims that Scottish people would be funding it.

https://twitter.com/petermacmahon/status/1138473104689303558?s=19

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14169

We hate it when parties don't tell us the truth don't we? I mean that includes all parties, doesn't it?

[Hibernia&Alba]

So if Boris gets his tax cut it means higher public spending in Scotland. Now hands up those who were fooled by the SNPs false claims that Scottish people would be funding it.

https://twitter.com/petermacmahon/status/1138473104689303558?s=19

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14169

We hate it when parties don't tell us the truth don't we? I mean that includes all parties, doesn't it?

Tax cuts means higher public spending? So we're back to Laffer Curves and 'growing the cake' are we? Follow that to its logical conclusion: what happens to public spending if all taxes are cut to zero?

[James310]

Tax cuts means higher public spending? So we're back to Laffer Curves and 'growing the cake' are we? Follow that to its logical conclusion: what happens to public spending if all taxes are cut to zero?

Who said anything about zero?

Just making the small point that sometimes what you are told by the SNP and what is splashed across the papers is not all it seems. I am sure if I never pointed this out quite a few would have never have known the truth. Happy to help.

[makaveli1875]

Who said anything about zero?

Just making the small point that sometimes what you are told by the SNP and what is splashed across the papers is not all it seems. I am sure if I never pointed this out quite a few would have never have known the truth. Happy to help.

Maybe we need an SNP are lying *******s thread.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Who said anything about zero?

Just making the small point that sometimes what you are told by the SNP and what is splashed across the papers is not all it seems. I am sure if I never pointed this out quite a few would have never have known the truth. Happy to help.

I've always found the idea of lower taxes meaning more revenue amusing and Orwellian. Even Professor Laffer himself conceded that his idea related only to the tiny few at the very top of the income scale, not the mass of the population. It was/is a self-serving fantasy, which I'm sure Boris Johnson still believes the majority are stupid enough to accept as verisimilitude.

[Smartie]

I liked Leadsom's comments about Indyref2.

Obviously I disagree with her opinion regarding remaining part of the union but it is refreshing that she spoke with respect about Scotland, the wishes of the people and respecting devolution.

Much better than the "get back in your box" tough talk preferred by all the others, talk that just gets your back up and makes your views even more entrenched.

[heretoday]

Just how depressing do things have to get until enough people in Scotland have had enough?

You never know. It might be OK. I'd give it a while anyway before embarking on another referendum. No sense piling chaos on chaos although Sturgeon is grabbing her opportunity right now.

[RyeSloan]

I've always found the idea of lower taxes meaning more revenue amusing and Orwellian. Even Professor Laffer himself conceded that his idea related only to the tiny few at the very top of the income scale, not the mass of the population. It was/is a self-serving fantasy, which I'm sure Boris Johnson still believes the majority are stupid enough to accept as verisimilitude.

It’s not really tho. The concept is pretty simple, put a tax too high and people do all they can to avoid it. Put it at a ‘sensible’ level and it’s not worth the effort so it’s paid.

I reckon IHT is a great example where the tax is too high so huge effort goes into avoiding it. Simplify and lower and the tax take would go up.

There is also plenty of examples of flat rate taxes raising more money than complex high tariffs. Georgia for example enacted a huge tax reform in the early 2000’s that removed taxes, lowered others and essentially simplified the whole system...it resulted in a doubling of revenue within 5 years.

BoJo’s proposal is crude and far too simplistic of course but hey what’s new when it comes to that dude...

[Glory Lurker]

Do people actually get depressed about politics ?

A friend wants to know

Your friend just needs to try to imagine being one of the many losers in the system, as opposed to being in the minority of winners. It'll probably be pretty difficult for him/her to do that, as I'd guess he/she wouldn't know where to start.

[Hibrandenburg]

Boris' candidature speech leaked.

https://youtu.be/xeiGLSy-1zU

[Ozyhibby]

Who said anything about zero?

Just making the small point that sometimes what you are told by the SNP and what is splashed across the papers is not all it seems. I am sure if I never pointed this out quite a few would have never have known the truth. Happy to help.

It was Robert Peston who broke that story based on figures from another think tank. Guess it’s up to you which one you want to believe.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I can't see the tories putting Hunt in. He is just such an unpopular character after the "job" he done with the NHS. I don't think he is electable in a GE.

I’m inclined to agree but while I hold Hunt in a healthy disregard I’m conscious that he isn’t unpopular in the safe Tory seats and would probably swing marginals if up against Corbyn.

The Tories like a winner, even if unpalatable. They went a bit haywire after Major and there is no reason they won’t do again but Hunt trumps Corbyn in the marginals, at least in my book. And that was painful to post.

[Lendo]

Esther McVey on LBC claiming that UK foreign aid money was used to build an airport "on one of those continents abroad"

Couldn't name the country

Couldn't name the continent

The runway was built in the the wrong direction, facing into the wind...............

How in the name of **** do these people function? Who is electing these people? How can someone so ****ing stupid be an elected representative of the British public.

The continent abroad she was referring to...? ST HELENA, a British Oversea's territory. (It's not even on a ****ing continent. she couldn't even get the basics correct).

[JeMeSouviens]

I liked Leadsom's comments about Indyref2.

Obviously I disagree with her opinion regarding remaining part of the union but it is refreshing that she spoke with respect about Scotland, the wishes of the people and respecting devolution.

Much better than the "get back in your box" tough talk preferred by all the others, talk that just gets your back up and makes your views even more entrenched.

That was yesterday. Today's Leadsom comments:


There will be no second referendums on my watch - not on Scottish Independance and not on EU membership. I respect the result of referendums!

:rolleyes:

[Bristolhibby]

From Andrea Leadsom Twitter (I note she cant spell Independence).

“There will be no second referendums on my watch - not on Scottish Independance and not on EU membership. I respect the result of referendums!”

That’s us told!

J

Edit - just seen the above reply. Seems to be the standard Tory line. Singing to the Shires Choir.

J

[Callum_62]

Esther McVey on LBC claiming that UK foreign aid money was used to build an airport "on one of those continents abroad"

Couldn't name the country

Couldn't name the continent

The runway was built in the the wrong direction, facing into the wind...............

How in the name of **** do these people function? Who is electing these people? How can someone so ****ing stupid be an elected representative of the British public.

The continent abroad she was referring to...? ST HELENA, a British Oversea's territory. (It's not even on a ****ing continent. she couldn't even get the basics correct).

INTO the wind - Christ sake.

[Sylar]

Esther McVey on LBC claiming that UK foreign aid money was used to build an airport "on one of those continents abroad"

Couldn't name the country

Couldn't name the continent

The runway was built in the the wrong direction, facing into the wind...............

How in the name of **** do these people function? Who is electing these people? How can someone so ****ing stupid be an elected representative of the British public.

The continent abroad she was referring to...? ST HELENA, a British Oversea's territory. (It's not even on a ****ing continent. she couldn't even get the basics correct).

I watched the video of it - absolutely staggering stuff.

*edit - deleted my parentheses - she didn't say "cross-wind" - she just has a horrific accent that I misheard "cause of the winds" as cross-winds.

[JeMeSouviens]

Esther McVey on LBC claiming that UK foreign aid money was used to build an airport "on one of those continents abroad"

Couldn't name the country

Couldn't name the continent

The runway was built in the the wrong direction, facing into the wind...............

How in the name of **** do these people function? Who is electing these people? How can someone so ****ing stupid be an elected representative of the British public.

The continent abroad she was referring to...? ST HELENA, a British Oversea's territory. (It's not even on a ****ing continent. she couldn't even get the basics correct).

Sir Alan Duncan MP

Total rubbish. The runway in question is in St Helena. I was the DFID Minister who built it - completed early, under budget, and despite difficult wind conditions it operates well. It fulfils our legal obligations to a UK overseas territory and so is not "foreign aid".

[Smartie]

That was yesterday. Today's Leadsom comments:



:rolleyes:

Quite a turnaround.

[makaveli1875]

who cares what Leadsom has to say , Boris is going to win .

Mon the Bojo

[Sylar]

who cares what Leadsom has to say , Boris is going to win .

Mon the Bojo

Exactly who we need to deal with those pesky picanninies and letterboxes that plague our country.

Mon' the Etonians! :rolleyes:

[heretoday]

Johnson has the thing sewn up as far as I can see.

[stokesmessiah]

Johnson has the thing sewn up as far as I can see.

Looking pretty unstoppable at the moment.

[lapsedhibee]

Looking pretty unstoppable at the moment.

:agree: Not looking good for Bojoke-doubters at the moment. Some time yet for his waffle to be exposed though. If Eddie Mair chairs a live debate and he turns up, perhaps Govey and Stewart could land some blows on him.

[marinello59]

:agree: Not looking good for Bojoke-doubters at the moment. Some time yet for his waffle to be exposed though. If Eddie Mair chairs a live debate and he turns up, perhaps Govey and Stewart could land some blows on him.

If the polls show he will walk the next GE then he is unstoppable. Tory MPs will vote to keep their seats, much like the Republican Party refuse to turn on Trump. This leadership election is nothing to do with the best interests of the UK, it’s what’s best for the Tories.

[lapsedhibee]

If the polls show he will walk the next GE then he is unstoppable. Tory MPs will vote to keep their seats, much like the Republican Party refuse to turn on Trump. This leadership election is nothing to do with the best interests of the UK, it’s what’s best for the Tories.
That's a fair sized leap from him being the current darling of the Tory Party membership (recently swelled by Brexit Party registered supporters joining it) and the ERG.

[stokesmessiah]

That's a fair sized leap from him being the current darling of the Tory Party membership (recently swelled by Brexit Party registered supporters joining it) and the ERG.

Not really, there are already polls being published that back this up:

https://news.sky.com/story/johnson-launches-campaign-as-poll-suggests-he-would-lead-tories-to-general-election-victory-11740185

[Ozyhibby]

Not really, there are already polls being published that back this up:

https://news.sky.com/story/johnson-launches-campaign-as-poll-suggests-he-would-lead-tories-to-general-election-victory-11740185

Anyone half popular will beat a Corbyn Labour. Tories are smart enough to dump hopeless leaders where as Labour need them to lose a couple of elections first.


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[stokesmessiah]

Anyone half popular will beat a Corbyn Labour. Tories are smart enough to dump hopeless leaders where as Labour need them to lose a couple of elections first.


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I get that. The point i was answering though was that the tories will vote in whoever to save themselves. Polls are coming out now saying Boris would win a landslide - it is only going to go one way.

[lapsedhibee]

Not really, there are already polls being published that back this up:

https://news.sky.com/story/johnson-launches-campaign-as-poll-suggests-he-would-lead-tories-to-general-election-victory-11740185

Poll conclusions not universally accepted by other experts, but anyway sooner or later someone's going to do another poll including a different hypothetical question: Will you vote Tory with Bojoke as leader if he fails to deliver Brexit by 31 October.

[Pretty Boy]

Johnson v Corbyn in a post Brexit election.

What a time to be alive. Where's Lord Sutch when you need him?

[stokesmessiah]

Johnson v Corbyn in a post Brexit election.

What a time to be alive. Where's Lord Sutch when you need him?

Christ, It honestly makes you wonder why you get out of bed.

[lapsedhibee]

10 got enough support to stand:

• Michael Gove
• Matt Hancock
• Mark Harper
• Jeremy Hunt
• Sajid Javid
• Boris Johnson
• Andrea Leadsom
• Esther McVey
• Dominic Raab
• Rory Stewart

First round of MP votes on Thursday.

Stewart now up to second in poll of Tory members' voting intentions. Which is not to say that's how they'll actually vote, as people sometimes lie about how they intend to vote. Bojoke streets ahead though.

[Ozyhibby]

Stewart now up to second in poll of Tory members' voting intentions. Which is not to say that's how they'll actually vote, as people sometimes lie about how they intend to vote. Bojoke streets ahead though.

Stewart may not make it through the morning. Needs to hope that the silent Tory mp’s are getting behind him.


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[Ozyhibby]

Funny how Ruth Davidson is going Sajid Javid and yet not one of the Scottish Tory mp’s is backing him.


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[Andy Bee]

I've been listening to this unfold on BBC radio over the last few weeks. The presenters and MP's alike are actually giving BJ respect for staying out the limelight for as long as possible, in their minds, BJ himself has realised he's an erse and could cock things at any point, so because of his self awareness apparently he's playing a blinder. They've actually dubbed it Operation Ming Vase as everyone's waiting to see if he can carry it to the end. What an amazing country we live in :faf:

[JeMeSouviens]

Funny how Ruth Davidson is going Sajid Javid and yet not one of the Scottish Tory mp’s is backing him.


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Speaking of Javid ... apparently he wasn't invited to the State banquet for Trumpy. He wasn't told why not and several more junior ministers were there.

If (as seems likely) he was deliberately kept off the guest list just because he's a Muslim and Trump is a racist ******** then surely that's unprecedentedly shameless, spineless behaviour, even for Tories? :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

Bizarre tweet from Jeremy Hunt:


Woke up this morning and felt a bit like the morning of my wedding. Something big is going to change but don't quite know how it will unfold #HastobeHunt

Has Boris ****ged his missus? :dunno:

[lapsedhibee]

Speaking of Javid ... apparently he wasn't invited to the State banquet for Trumpy. He wasn't told why not and several more junior ministers were there.

If (as seems likely) he was deliberately kept off the guest list just because he's a Muslim and Trump is a racist ******** then surely that's unprecedentedly shameless, spineless behaviour, even for Tories? :confused:

Nothing to do with Islamophobia. It's a medical condition Trump has, like bone spurs, which renders him allergic to the sons of bus drivers: cf. Sadiq Khan.

[Hibrandenburg]

Shouty Ruthie now claiming the SNP need to win an absolute majority at the next election before they can claim to have a mandate for another referendum. No Ruth, you don't get to dictate the rules.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Bizarre tweet from Jeremy Hunt:



Has Boris ****ged his missus? :dunno:



she's Hot, i doubt it

[Ozyhibby]

Had a quick look and about half the Tory mp’s hadn’t declared for anyone so there is a chance Hunt or Gove have bigger support than expected.


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[G B Young]

Had a quick look and about half the Tory mp’s hadn’t declared for anyone so there is a chance Hunt or Gove have bigger support than expected.


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It would be encouraging to think Rory Stewart emerges with a genuine chance, but he seems far too reasonable in his outlook (and therefore nowhere near partisan enough in these polarised times) so will likely be an early faller.

[stokesmessiah]

BBC are reporting that the expected support for BJ is huge, much bigger than expected - 3 figures.

[stokesmessiah]

It would be encouraging to think Rory Stewart emerges with a genuine chance, but he seems far too reasonable in his outlook (and therefore nowhere near partisan enough in these polarised times) so will likely be an early faller.

He does seem like a decent enough guy - therein lies the reason that they won't vote him in.

[Moulin Yarns]

BBC are reporting that the expected support for BJ is huge, much bigger than expected - 3 figures.

114 for BoJo

Leadsom McVey and harper drop out

[Ozyhibby]

Johnson 114
Hunt 43
Gove 27
Javid 23
Raab 27
Hancock 20
Stewart 19
Harper 10
McVey 9
Leadsom 11


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[cabbageandribs1875]

if boris became PM(oh god) who on earth would he get to speak for him at PMQ's, assuming he would still be quite reluctant to answer Q's

[ronaldo7]

Johnson 114
Hunt 43
Gove 27
Javid 23
Raab 27
Hancock 20
Stewart 19
Harper 10
McVey 9
Leadsom 11


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It looks like he's got the ERG onside. Tory party swings further to the right.

[JeMeSouviens]

Johnson 114
Hunt 43
Gove 27
Javid 23
Raab 27
Hancock 20
Stewart 19
Harper 10
McVey 9
Leadsom 11


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So Harper, McVey, Leadsom automatically out?

Johnson has enough to go straight to the final 2 on those numbers. Looks like Hunt v **** in the runoff.

[Moulin Yarns]

So Harper, McVey, Leadsom automatically out?

Johnson has enough to go straight to the final 2 on those numbers. Looks like Hunt v **** in the runoff.

Wouldn't bet on it. The vote is still open to wheeling and dealing. This is the tories after all.

[Jones28]

Holy ****. What is going on here? BJ will be the next PM and I want to go and live on the moon.

[cabbageandribs1875]

just short of 200 voted against boris

[Ozyhibby]

To get through the next round Stewart will need to pick up most of Harper and Leadsoms votes. McVeys votes will go to Johnson I would think.


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[SHODAN]

Johnson is in the final two on those votes and therefore our next PM. Let's hope he's the straw that breaks the Tories' back.

[stokesmessiah]

just short of 200 voted against boris

McVey, Leadsom & Harper all took quite a hard line on Brexit though - so you would have to think the likelihood is a lot of them will fall behind Boris now?

Its going to be between Hunt & BJ.

[degenerated]

He does seem like a decent enough guy - therein lies the reason that they won't vote him in.

He's managed to paint himself as some sort of centrist but his voting record suggests he is little different to the rest of them



Almost always voted against a right to remain for EU nationals already in living in the UK
Generally voted against laws to promote equality and human rights
Almost always voted for use of UK military forces in combat operations overseas
Voted against investigations into the Iraq war
Consistently voted for replacing Trident with a new nuclear weapons system
Generally voted against more EU integration
Generally voted for a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU
Generally voted against UK membership of the EU
Almost always voted against smoking bans
Generally voted for reducing housing benefit for social tenants deemed to have excess bedrooms (which Labour describe as the "bedroom tax")
Consistently voted against raising welfare benefits at least in line with prices
Almost always voted against paying higher benefits over longer periods for those unable to work due to illness or disability
Almost always voted for making local councils responsible for helping those in financial need afford their council tax and reducing the amount spent on such support
Almost always voted for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits
Generally voted against spending public money to create guaranteed jobs for young people who have spent a long time unemployed
Almost always voted against increasing the tax rate applied to income over £150,000
Generally voted against a banker’s bonus tax
Consistently voted against an annual tax on the value of expensive homes (popularly known as a mansion tax)
Almost always voted for more restrictive regulation of trade union activity
Almost always voted for reducing capital gains tax
Voted for raising England’s undergraduate tuition fee cap to £9,000 per year
Consistently voted for ending financial support for some 16-19 year olds in training and further education
Consistently voted for university tuition fees
Almost always voted for reducing central government funding of local government
Consistently voted for a stricter asylum system
Consistently voted for requiring the mass retention of information about communications
Consistently voted for stronger enforcement of immigration rules
Consistently voted for mass surveillance of people’s communications and activities
Generally voted against measures to prevent climate change
Consistently voted for selling England’s state owned forests
Generally voted against financial incentives for low carbon emission electricity generation methods
Generally voted for culling badgers to tackle bovine tuberculosis
Generally voted against greater regulation of hydraulic fracturing (fracking) to extract shale gas
Almost always voted against slowing the rise in rail fares
Generally voted against a publicly owned railway system
Almost always voted against greater public control of bus services
Consistently voted for phasing out secure tenancies for life
Consistently voted against greater regulation of gambling
Consistently voted for capping civil service redundancy payments
Generally voted for the privatisation of Royal Mail
Generally voted for restricting the scope of legal aid
Consistently voted for allowing national security sensitive evidence to be put before courts in secret sessions
Consistently voted against restrictions on fees charged to tenants by letting agents

[stokesmessiah]

To get through the next round Stewart will need to pick up most of Harper and Leadsoms votes. McVeys votes will go to Johnson I would think.


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Can't see that happening at all.

[stokesmessiah]

He's managed to paint himself as some sort of centrist but his voting record suggests he is little different to the rest of them


Wow - that is quite an interesting read.

Can i ask where that came from ?

[Ozyhibby]

Can't see that happening at all.

Neither can I, unless he has an amazing debate on Sunday night he’s toast next Tuesday.


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[JeMeSouviens]

He's managed to paint himself as some sort of centrist but his voting record suggests he is little different to the rest of them

These voting record things are usually a total waste of time. Most of these are whipped votes where the MP has to vote with the party or face disciplinary measures, ultimately being booted out.

Where an MP has departed from the party whip is much more interesting.

Anyway, Boris doesn't fit labels like left/right/centrist. His central mission is being a self serving ****.

[Bangkok Hibby]

He's managed to paint himself as some sort of centrist but his voting record suggests he is little different to the rest of them

As soon as someone comes along you think might have a bit of humanity about them something like this reminds us they're all just self serving, evil Tory *******s.

[lapsedhibee]

Holy ****. What is going on here? BJ will be the next PM.
Big fat boost for Irish and Scottish nationalism.

[degenerated]

Wow - that is quite an interesting read.

Can i ask where that came from ?

There's a website called "they work for you" where you can check on any of them

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24964/rory_stewart/penrith_and_the_border/votes

[stokesmessiah]

There's a website called "they work for you" where you can check on any of them

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24964/rory_stewart/penrith_and_the_border/votes

Thank you.

[heretoday]

I just cannot believe that this oaf has managed to fool his way to the top job. He doesn't appear to have any hard policies at all.

Even Thatcher had the facts at her fingertips and the plans all costed out. With Johnson it's vague supposition delivered with a public schoolboy's bumbling smirk.

Manna for the adoring media of course who, in my view, have behaved appallingly since this Brexit business began.

Instead of fully informing and educating us about the various options on offer - Norway Plus, Canada Plus, EFTA etc - it's all "Ooh will Theresa last till next week?" or "Has Boris snorted coke?" In other words, they've treated the situation like a soap opera instead of the deadly serious thing that it is.

[Dalianwanda]

There's a website called "they work for you" where you can check on any of them

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24964/rory_stewart/penrith_and_the_border/votes

Another Angry Voice on facebook making exactly the same point. They are all ****s.

[lapsedhibee]

I just cannot believe that this oaf has managed to fool his way to the top job. He doesn't appear to have any hard policies at all.
He's not quite in the top job yet. There's just a chance that if he turns up for the televised debate on Sunday (big if) he could get skewered by Gove and Stewart.

[James310]

I read something along the lines as Boris will be more like the Chairman than the Chief Executive, so he will not really be in charge of much actual day to day management of things but will direct from a high level and be the public face of the Government, but not actually do that much!

As an aside I don't like him as he is a buffoon, but don't underestimate him either. He is obviously intelligent but seems to have little common sense. I predict he will not last long if elected to be PM, but I never thought Trump would see out the full term of his presidency but he looks like he will.

[Moulin Yarns]

I read something along the lines as Boris will be more like the Chairman than the Chief Executive, so he will not really be in charge of much actual day to day management of things but will direct from a high level and be the public face of the Government, but not actually do that much!

As an aside I don't like him as he is a buffoon, but don't underestimate him either. He is obviously intelligent but seems to have little common sense. I predict he will not last long if elected to be PM, but I never thought Trump would see out the full term of his presidency but he looks like he will.

Since when was being Prime Minister similar to chairman. Hell, if I called a meeting I would be chairman.

[JeMeSouviens]

Since when was being Prime Minister similar to chairman. Hell, if I called a meeting I would be chairman.

It's the same delusion the Republicans sold themselves about Trumpy: don't worry, it'll be ok there'll be sensible folk round about him. Hmmmm.

The good news is the next PM puts themselves straight into the same corner May couldn't get out of. Unless the ERG nutters come on side just because its Boris then he is just as ****ed as she was.

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

[Fife-Hibee]

He's not quite in the top job yet. There's just a chance that if he turns up for the televised debate on Sunday (big if) he could get skewered by Gove and Stewart.

He won't turn up. He won't need to turn up.

[lapsedhibee]

He won't turn up. He won't need to turn up.

Hasn't ruled it out. Might not want to be perceived as frit. What would Churchill have done in the circumstances? :dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

He won't turn up. He won't need to turn up.

Not turning up could be damaging for when he gets to the final two and party members are voting.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Not turning up could be damaging for when he gets to the final two and party members are voting.


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That'll have nothing to do with anything he could say on stage and everything to do with backroom deals including tax cuts and hedge fund policies.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It’s not really tho. The concept is pretty simple, put a tax too high and people do all they can to avoid it. Put it at a ‘sensible’ level and it’s not worth the effort so it’s paid.

I reckon IHT is a great example where the tax is too high so huge effort goes into avoiding it. Simplify and lower and the tax take would go up.

There is also plenty of examples of flat rate taxes raising more money than complex high tariffs. Georgia for example enacted a huge tax reform in the early 2000’s that removed taxes, lowered others and essentially simplified the whole system...it resulted in a doubling of revenue within 5 years.

BoJo’s proposal is crude and far too simplistic of course but hey what’s new when it comes to that dude...

Didn't Georgia have to be bailed out by the federal government under Obama, when its tax 'reforms' went tits up and basic public services had to be slashed? I remember watching a report on The Young Turks about slashing taxes and its consequences, and I'm sure the state in question was Georgia! That's the state the Republican Governor was also responsible for overseeing his own re-election, refused to recuse himself, scrubbed hundreds of thousands of people in Democratic areas from the electoral rolls and won by a tiny margin? Brian Kemp.

Those who defend this idea of lower taxes increasing revenue never tell us the optimum rate. As I said previously, if taxes are reduced to zero, income is zero; so what is the tax rate, as a percentage, which maximises income?

Also, flat rate taxation is totally regressive and massively favours the wealthiest, so what happens to the cherished equality of opportunity when ever more wealth, and by extension, power, is concentrated in ever fewer hands? I don't see how it is compatible with a thriving democracy, which requires some degree of equality. How does that sit with income maximisation? We have two issues running parallel. And I would add it's a situation we are once again seeing played out in Britain, where the leading contender for prime minister is yet another Old Etonian. A tiny number of very wealthy hereditary millionaires form the political establishment, which undermines democracy. 99.999 per cent of us didn't attend Eton, but we spend much of our lives governed by them and their interests.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Johnson 114
Hunt 43
Gove 27
Javid 23
Raab 27
Hancock 20
Stewart 19
Harper 10
McVey 9
Leadsom 11


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What collection of amoral/immoral reprobates, careerists and cowards. I despise them all.

[heretoday]

I'm beginning to think he's a Russian plant who's fooled us all brilliantly. The clue is in the name - Boris. It's not rocket science.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190613/17e70a476868bf5861a5429851c85b7f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

As soon as someone comes along you think might have a bit of humanity about them something like this reminds us they're all just self serving, evil Tory *******s.
I agree, but it will be the same self serving evil Tory *******s that will be doing the voting. RS has built up a fair bit of momentum and is neck and neck with BJ in polls from the Tory members. I can see him getting into the final two.

[Ozyhibby]

Hancock pulling out tomorrow. A help for Stewart likely.


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[JimBHibees]

I just cannot believe that this oaf has managed to fool his way to the top job. He doesn't appear to have any hard policies at all.

Even Thatcher had the facts at her fingertips and the plans all costed out. With Johnson it's vague supposition delivered with a public schoolboy's bumbling smirk.

Manna for the adoring media of course who, in my view, have behaved appallingly since this Brexit business began.

Instead of fully informing and educating us about the various options on offer - Norway Plus, Canada Plus, EFTA etc - it's all "Ooh will Theresa last till next week?" or "Has Boris snorted coke?" In other words, they've treated the situation like a soap opera instead of the deadly serious thing that it is.

That's because it suits the press to do so.

[Moulin Yarns]

Then there were six

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48631706

[RyeSloan]

Didn't Georgia have to be bailed out by the federal government under Obama, when its tax 'reforms' went tits up and basic public services had to be slashed? I remember watching a report on The Young Turks about slashing taxes and its consequences, and I'm sure the state in question was Georgia! That's the state the Republican Governor was also responsible for overseeing his own re-election, refused to recuse himself, scrubbed hundreds of thousands of people in Democratic areas from the electoral rolls and won by a tiny margin? Brian Kemp.

Those who defend this idea of lower taxes increasing revenue never tell us the optimum rate. As I said previously, if taxes are reduced to zero, income is zero; so what is the tax rate, as a percentage, which maximises income?

Also, flat rate taxation is totally regressive and massively favours the wealthiest, so what happens to the cherished equality of opportunity when ever more wealth, and by extension, power, is concentrated in ever fewer hands? I don't see how it is compatible with a thriving democracy, which requires some degree of equality. How does that sit with income maximisation? We have two issues running parallel. And I would add it's a situation we are once again seeing played out in Britain, where the leading contender for prime minister is yet another Old Etonian. A tiny number of very wealthy hereditary millionaires form the political establishment, which undermines democracy. 99.999 per cent of us didn't attend Eton, but we spend much of our lives governed by them and their interests.

Urmmm the Country of Georgia not the state!

As for the comment about those suggesting lower taxes never state what level the optimum rate is...well the flip side to that is the ‘little bit more’ never seems to be enough so what about the flip side that if higher taxes are good that must mean 100% tax rate is the ultimate outcome of that....you can’t make the rather outlandish alignment to a zero tax rate as an argument if you can’t see the opposite can be called straight back at it.

As for the optimum rate of any tax, all depends on the taxes being levelled. No one is suggesting there is a magic number for all taxes and all situations. That would be daft.

All I was saying is that there is plenty of evidence that simplified and flatter tax rates can, and have, increased revenue where they have been applied correctly.

That doesn’t even begin to remotely suggest a reversion to zero rates or does it mean the removal of progressive levels where they are desirable.

And when you think about it is actually supporting higher levels of overall taxation, just in a more effective and easier manner. And further more it’s a concept that can result in those that can currently afford to pay to avoid (those pesky rich eton types) being brought back into paying the tax.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Urmmm the Country of Georgia not the state!

As for the comment about those suggesting lower taxes never state what level the optimum rate is...well the flip side to that is the ‘little bit more’ never seems to be enough so what about the flip side that if higher taxes are good that must mean 100% tax rate is the ultimate outcome of that....you can’t make the rather outlandish alignment to a zero tax rate as an argument if you can’t see the opposite can be called straight back at it.

As for the optimum rate of any tax, all depends on the taxes being levelled. No one is suggesting there is a magic number for all taxes and all situations. That would be daft.

All I was saying is that there is plenty of evidence that simplified and flatter tax rates can, and have, increased revenue where they have been applied correctly.

That doesn’t even begin to remotely suggest a reversion to zero rates or does it mean the removal of progressive levels where they are desirable.

And when you think about it is actually supporting higher levels of overall taxation, just in a more effective and easier manner. And further more it’s a concept that can result in those that can currently afford to pay to avoid (those pesky rich eton types) being brought back into paying the tax.

My apologies, I thought you meant the state of Georgia, as I know that was used as a poster child for right wingers in the States. The only problem was it all collapsed in on itself and had to be saved from bankruptcy, much like when the same experiment was tried in Chile under Pinochet. I believe Kansas went down the same route, with the same result.

But again, there are two issues. What is this magic tax rate which optimises revenue, and, is it even desirable, given the consequences on the social fabric of a country? For sake of argument, let's say a very low tax rate does increase revenue; well, is revenue the only thing we should be concerned with? What about the other consequences of very unequal societies in terms of social cohesion and social mobility? Great concentrations of wealth and power inevitably lead to plutarchy, and how does that sit with a functioning democracy? Democracy is egalitarian: you get one vote, whether a prince or a pauper. Great inequality puts the democratic process under strain, as positions of influence will inevitably be filled by the rich and powerful. I would say progressive taxation is always preferable in terms of both raising revenue and social desirability. The Scandinavians and Germans seem to get it right, and I think we should be looking more towards their model, not the American model.

We've had four decades of this neoliberal/supply side nonsense in the UK and look where it's gotten us: food banks, a million people waiting for social housing, increased homelessness, household debt higher than ever, student debt, falling social mobility, to name just a few consequences. It's all ideological: policy changes always benefit some and harm others; the question is who benefits and who loses?

Milton Friedman and his pals offered a form of alchemy: by reducing taxes, the tax revenue increases. By having less of something, you actually have more. As I said, it's Orwellian in its dishonesty. Also it has no interest in the wider consequences of such changes and only thinks about the bottom line. I suppose this is natural for economists, but the world isn't about economics alone.

[lapsedhibee]

Bojoke skips Sunday's debate because there are too many people in it. Running scared of being picked apart by Stewart, more like, and hoping he gets knocked out before Tuesday. Such a transparent liar.

[Moulin Yarns]

Bojoke skips Sunday's debate because there are too many people in it. Running scared of being picked apart by Stewart, more like, and hoping he gets knocked out before Tuesday. Such a transparent liar.


Funny how different people see things. I realise the Sunday debate is different, but I think he has a point. I think he might struggle to get many more supporters among the party MPs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48638758

[Hibernia&Alba]

Bojoke skips Sunday's debate because there are too many people in it. Running scared of being picked apart by Stewart, more like, and hoping he gets knocked out before Tuesday. Such a transparent liar.

He's a fat fool. Had daddy not had the money to pack him off to Eton, he'd be unemployable.

[lapsedhibee]

He's a fat fool. Had daddy not had the money to pack him off to Eton, he'd be unemployable.

How can you say he's a fool when this very day he's solved Brexit. Just drop the backstop and replace it with alternative arrangements! What a guy! :not worth

[Hibernia&Alba]

How can you say he's a fool when this very day he's solved Brexit. Just drop the backstop and replace it with alternative arrangements! What a guy! :not worth


https://media.giphy.com/media/kLGEjXf6yEMog/giphy.gif

[James310]

He's a fat fool. Had daddy not had the money to pack him off to Eton, he'd be unemployable.

He won a scholarship to Eton. If that paid for all the fees I am not sure.

[Hibrandenburg]

Feel the love!A poem published by Boris Johnson when he was editor of Spectator magazine.

The Scotch - what a verminous race!

Canny, pushy, chippy, they're all over the place.

Battening off us with false bonhomie;

Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

As provocatively, offensively foreign!

It's time Hadrian's Wall was refortified

To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

I would go further. The nation

Deserves not merely isolation

But comprehensive extermination.

We must not flinch from a solution.

[Just Alf]

Feel the love!A poem published by Boris Johnson when he was editor of Spectator magazine.

The Scotch - what a verminous race!

Canny, pushy, chippy, they're all over the place.

Battening off us with false bonhomie;

Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

As provocatively, offensively foreign!

It's time Hadrian's Wall was refortified

To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

I would go further. The nation

Deserves not merely isolation

But comprehensive extermination.

We must not flinch from a solution.Thought this was a wind up!

Found that he did publish it but its not 100% clear he was the author, either way he was involved.. Oh what a wonderful PM he'll make.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[James310]

Thought this was a wind up!

Found that he did publish it but its not 100% clear he was the author, either way he was involved.. Oh what a wonderful PM he'll make.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

He was not the author but he did publish it, which is a horrendous thing to do. Not as bad a writing it, but comes close.

Boris is a gift for the SNP, I wonder if they can take advantage.

[Smartie]

https://youtu.be/UN3e-aYUusc

I saw this earlier.

It beggars belief that people see this guy and think he's Prime Minister material.

[weecounty hibby]

Feel the love!A poem published by Boris Johnson when he was editor of Spectator magazine.

The Scotch - what a verminous race!

Canny, pushy, chippy, they're all over the place.

Battening off us with false bonhomie;

Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

As provocatively, offensively foreign!

It's time Hadrian's Wall was refortified

To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

I would go further. The nation

Deserves not merely isolation

But comprehensive extermination.

We must not flinch from a solution.

Extermination. Solution. Where have we heard that kind of talk before? That is an absolute disgrace that he had anything to do with that, writer or not. I suppose it's good to know what the probable leader of the UK government really thinks of us.

[Smartie]

He was not the author but he did publish it, which is a horrendous thing to do. Not as bad a writing it, but comes close.

Boris is a gift for the SNP, I wonder if they can take advantage.

I agree re Boris, but there are many Tories who are similar (see the leadership candidates queuing up to talk tough on Scotland).

The SNP and Scottish independence full stop has a much stronger case when the more extreme Tory tendencies come to the fore. Thatcher, Boris, Rees-Mogg - everything these people stand for is alien to a huge proportion of the Scottish people (it is open to debate how much more they relate to the English population.) We've had a pretty strong influence from them for much of my lifetime, and it looks like that is only going to increase in future which spells very bad news for Scotland.

Scotland has been badly let down by the Labour Party and it hasn't ever been more let down than it is right now. A semi-competent Labour Party would be wiping the floor with this shambles, and with a half-decent Labour Party in government, it would be far harder to argue the case for independence.

[lapsedhibee]

https://youtu.be/UN3e-aYUusc

I saw this earlier.

It beggars belief that people see this guy and think he's Prime Minister material.

Matthew Parris was on the radiobox the other night suggesting that a most illuminating question to put to Bojoke on Tuesday, if he turns up, would be How many children do you have?

Wikipedia says 4. Parris suggests somewhere between 5 and 7.

Goes to character, m'lud.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Feel the love!A poem published by Boris Johnson when he was editor of Spectator magazine.

The Scotch - what a verminous race!

Canny, pushy, chippy, they're all over the place.

Battening off us with false bonhomie;

Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

As provocatively, offensively foreign!

It's time Hadrian's Wall was refortified

To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

I would go further. The nation

Deserves not merely isolation

But comprehensive extermination.

We must not flinch from a solution.

Should be on billboard's

[Fife-Hibee]

Boris is a gift for the SNP, I wonder if they can take advantage.

Not really. The vast majority of the anti-independence brigade get their jollies from good ole Scottish racism. They'll be cheering his every breath as Prime Minister.

[James310]

Not really. The vast majority of the anti-independence brigade get their jollies from good ole Scottish racism. They'll be cheering his every breath as Prime Minister.

So the vast majority of the 55% that voted no get 'jollies' from racism? Ok then.

[Fife-Hibee]

So the vast majority of the 55% that voted no get 'jollies' from racism? Ok then.

They view it as some kind of victory when some tory eton boy points the finger at jockland to talk us down.

[James310]

They view it as some kind of victory when some tory eton boy points the finger at jockland to talk us down.

So to be clear the vast majority of Scots who voted No get their jollies from racism and like it when Tory Eton boys talk down jockland?

[lord bunberry]

Boris Johnson as prime minister would be proof positive that accident of birth is still incredibly significant in Britain. Here is someone who believed from childhood that he would be prime minister; that he was born to it and it's his right. Imagine growing up being so secure of your place in the world, confident that, like so many Old Etonians, you are born to rule. What an embarrassment to this country, which totally undermines the lip service politicians pay to a supposed meritocracy and equality of opportunity. Our society remains medieval in so many ways, as the luck of draw continues to determine one's destiny. As a Conservative Johnson wishes to conserve this state of affairs. I despise him and the values he represents.
I can’t believe this post hasn’t had more recognition.
Well said sir:top marks

[stoneyburn hibs]

So to be clear the vast majority of Scots who voted No get their jollies from racism and like it when Tory Eton boys talk down jockland?

So to be clear, he never said or alluded to that.

[James310]

So to be clear, he never said or alluded to that.

So what does the vast majority mean? That's his words not mine.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Almost all, I wouldn't make much money if I had a wager that you are ripping the heid of it regarding Boris as the next PM.

[James310]

Almost all, I wouldn't make much money if I had a wager that you are ripping the heid of it regarding Boris as the next PM.

So he said the vast majority which you admit is almost all, but then defend him saying that's not what he said. Your confused.

Have a rest and maybe you can get back to 'ripping the heid of it'

[stoneyburn hibs]

So he said the vast majority which you admit is almost all, but then defend him saying that's not what he said. Your confused.

Have a rest and maybe you can get back to ripping the heid of it.

I'm rested, credit to you for not denying what you get off on.

[James310]

I'm rested, credit to you for not denying what you get off on.

Yes they do say after a good **** you get rested. Well done, but spare us the details.

Now can we stick to adult debate, not revert to juvenile connotations.

[Fife-Hibee]

So he said the vast majority which you admit is almost all, but then defend him saying that's not what he said. Your confused.

Have a rest and maybe you can get back to 'ripping the heid of it'

I said most of all and i'll stand by it. It's abundantly clear that the majority of "scots" would prefer to have Boris Johnson holding the whip over them, than have to deal with the sheer nightmare of their own countries sovereignty.

[James310]

I said most of all and i'll stand by it. It's abundantly clear that the majority of "scots" would prefer to have Boris Johnson holding the whip over them, than have to deal with the sheer nightmare of their own countries sovereignty.

But your friend said you never said this? Now I am confused.

[Fife-Hibee]

But your friend said you never said this? Now I am confused.

You slid the word "racism" in there which isn't what I said.

It is however exactly what I meant.

[1875godsgift]

Should be on billboard's


Should be on every Scottish news channel and trending all over the internet.

[Fife-Hibee]

Should be on every Scottish news channel and trending all over the internet.

Just one problem. We have no Scottish news channels. We have London channels dressed in kilts.

[stoneyburn hibs]

But your friend said you never said this? Now I am confused.

I'll hold my hands up to that, got it wrong.

Your posting style noises me up if I'm honest, I jumped in and got it wrong.

[The Modfather]

Not really. The vast majority of the anti-independence brigade get their jollies from good ole Scottish racism. They'll be cheering his every breath as Prime Minister.

You don’t do yourself, or the independence argument, any favours when you pigeonhole everyone who voted no as anti Scottish.

[Fife-Hibee]

You don’t do yourself, or the independence argument, any favours when you pigeonhole everyone who voted no as anti Scottish.

I never said everyone, I said most. I'm prepared to be proven wrong though. The polls would suggest not though.

[James310]

I'll hold my hands up to that, got it wrong.

Your posting style noises me up if I'm honest, I jumped in and got it wrong.

I don't care much for your posting style, but I don't feel the need to make references to you getting off on Nicola Sturgeon doing whatever it is she does.

Do you agree with Fife Hibee though? You were quick to defend him.

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't care much for your posting style, but I don't feel the need to make references to you getting off on Nicola Sturgeon doing whatever it is she does.

Do you agree with Fife Hibee though? You were quick to defend him.

Which would you prefer. An independent Scotland? Or Scotland remaining in the UK under a PM who has made previous derogatory comments against Scotland?

I won't accept a whataboutery answer. It's either one or the other.

[James310]

Which would you prefer. An independent Scotland? Or Scotland remaining in the UK under a PM who has made previous derogatory comments against Scotland?

I won't accept a whataboutery answer. It's either one or the other.

The latter at the moment, Boris is bad news, but no point jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I think he will be limited in the damage he can do if he becomes PM but the damage that Sturgeon and Co would do will be like nothing we have never seen before.

Also he will move on, he will maybe last a few years but the damage Sturgeon and her cronies would do to the economy would last for generations to come.

That clear enough for you?

[Hibrandenburg]

Should be on billboard's

:agree:

[stoneyburn hibs]

I don't care much for your posting style, but I don't feel the need to make references to you getting off on Nicola Sturgeon doing whatever it is she does.

Do you agree with Fife Hibee though? You were quick to defend him.

I broadly agree with what he said, and I broadly agree with what he says in general.

[Fife-Hibee]

The latter at the moment, Boris is bad news, but no point jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I think he will be limited in the damage he can do if he becomes PM but the damage that Sturgeon and Co would do will be like nothing we have never seen before.

Also he will move on, he will maybe last a few years but the damage Sturgeon and her cronies would do to the economy would last for generations to come.

All you had to say was "i'd rather Scotland was dictated to by an anti-Scottish racist than have control over it's own affairs."


That clear enough for you?

Loud and clear.

[James310]

All you had to say was "i'd rather Scotland was dictated to by an anti-Scottish racist than have control over it's own affairs."


Why would I say that when that's not what I mean or implied. You do like making stuff up don't you.

[James310]

I broadly agree with what he said, and I broadly agree with what he says in general.

So you agreed with what he said, even although you completely misinterpreted what he said. That makes perfect sense.

[The Modfather]

The latter at the moment, Boris is bad news, but no point jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I think he will be limited in the damage he can do if he becomes PM but the damage that Sturgeon and Co would do will be like nothing we have never seen before.

Also he will move on, he will maybe last a few years but the damage Sturgeon and her cronies would do to the economy would last for generations to come.

That clear enough for you?

What about the damage Cameron and May have caused with Brexit that will effect generations to come? Independence might or night not be the answer but a post Brexit (particularly in the event of a no deal) UK is just as big a risk as an independent Scotland IMO.

[James310]

What about the damage Cameron and May have caused with Brexit that will effect generations to come? Independence might or night not be the answer but a post Brexit (particularly in the event of a no deal) UK is just as big a risk as an independent Scotland IMO.

Brexit was a bad idea, why make it worse?

[Fife-Hibee]

Why would I say that when that's not what I mean or implied. You do like making stuff up don't you.

It is what you meant though. Because the political stance you're taking supports just that.

You say that the damage from Boris will be limited and will only last a few years. But seem to have the idea that an independent Scotland will be forever ruled under the thumb of Nicola Sturgeon with no safe guards in place to circumvent her level of authority.

You're making the conscious decision to back an anti-scottish racist (rejected by Scotland) having authority over Scotland as opposed to a soverign Scotland where votes actually matter.

Why do you hate Scotland so much?

[Hibrandenburg]

The latter at the moment, Boris is bad news, but no point jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I think he will be limited in the damage he can do if he becomes PM but the damage that Sturgeon and Co would do will be like nothing we have never seen before.

Also he will move on, he will maybe last a few years but the damage Sturgeon and her cronies would do to the economy would last for generations to come.

That clear enough for you?

Boris is bad news? Understatement of the year. If Nicola Sturgeon posted a ditty about ethnically cleansing Scotland of the English on her Twitter feed then I might get where you're coming from. The fact that you'd prefer someone who is a self confessed Scotland hater ahead of someone who clearly has Scotland's interests at heart to govern Scotland sums you up quite nicely. Nothing you say now could convince me that you care a toss about the people in Scotland, instead your precious union would seem to be all you care about.

[James310]

It is what you meant though. Because the political stance you're taking supports just that.

You say that the damage from Boris will be limited and will only last a few years. But seem to have the idea that an independent Scotland will be forever ruled under the thumb of Nicola Sturgeon with no safe guards in place to circumvent her level of authority.

You're making the conscious decision to back an anti-scottish racist (rejected by Scotland) having authority over Scotland as opposed to a soverign Scotland where votes actually matter.

Why do you hate Scotland so much?

Thanks for telling me what I really mean, that's really helpful.

I don't hate Scotland, could say the same to you as why do you want to subject the nation to an economic nightmare. I am trying to save Scotland.

[James310]

Boris is bad news? Understatement of the year. If Nicola Sturgeon posted a ditty about ethnically cleansing Scotland of the English on her Twitter feed then I might get where you're coming from. The fact that you'd prefer someone who is a self confessed Scotland hater ahead of someone who clearly has Scotland's interests at heart to govern Scotland sums you up quite nicely. Nothing you say now could convince me that you care a toss about the people in Scotland, instead your precious union would seem to be all you care about.

But your wrong in my opinion, Scotland as a nation would likely be bankrupt if we followed Sturgeon. Only a £30BN budget gap from the White Paper and our first Prime Minister potentially facing jail time for serious sexual offences.

How would that gap have been funded?

[Fife-Hibee]

Thanks for telling me what I really mean, that's really helpful.

I don't hate Scotland, could say the same to you as why do you want to subject the nation to an economic nightmare. I am trying to save Scotland.

You are subjecting Scotland to an economic nightmare. Not only are you subjecting Scotland to an economic nightmare, you're subjecting us to a race war under a modern day fascist.

The way you word your point of view is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that you view Boris Johnson as a better option over Scottish sovereignty. You are holding a racist in higher regard than Scotlands ability to govern itself.

[Fife-Hibee]

But your wrong in my opinion, Scotland as a nation would likely be bankrupt if we followed Sturgeon. Only a £30BN budget gap from the White Paper and our first Prime Minister potentially facing jail time for serious sexual offences.

How would that gap have been funded?

Well it's a good thing the UK doesn't have a major funding gap that's about to grow ever wider. How lucky we are to be in a union that imposes a funding gap on us, rather than us having control over it ourselves.

[James310]

Well it's a good thing the UK doesn't have a major funding gap that's about to grow ever wider. How lucky we are to be in a union that imposes a funding gap on us, rather than us having control over it ourselves.

So how would that £30BN gap have been funded? Tax increase, public spending cuts?

[Fife-Hibee]

So how would that £30BN gap have been funded? Tax increase, public spending cuts?

How is the UK gap being funded? It isn't. Instead, we have a tory government that is cutting taxes, public services and ultimately shrinking down the state as much as possible.

If it's not an immediate urgency of the UK Government to close the UK wide funding gap, then why would it be any different for an independent Scotland?

[James310]

How is the UK gap being funded? It isn't. Instead, we have a tory government that is cutting taxes, public services and ultimately shrinking down the state as much as possible.

If it's not an immediate urgency of the UK Government to close the UK wide funding gap, then why would it be any different for an independent Scotland?

Stop turning my questions into your questions. I answered your question directly, can you do the same? If you don't want to answer just say so.

[The Modfather]

Brexit was a bad idea, why make it worse?

Ultimately it comes down to an independent Scotland finding its feet, but still in the EU (I’ve seen enough to make me confident we would welcomed in and quickly) v staying in the UK but one that’s not in the EU.

Both are a risk so it’s just down to what leap of faith each of us choose.

[marinello59]

Not really. The vast majority of the anti-independence brigade get their jollies from good ole Scottish racism. They'll be cheering his every breath as Prime Minister.

That’s really poor stuff from you again. 55% of our fellow Scots took a different view on Independence from me and you. Suggesting the vast majority of them are racist is just plain wrong.
I might be wrong though so please back that up with some facts. Are there polls showing this?

[Fife-Hibee]

Stop turning my questions into your questions. I answered your question directly, can you do the same? If you don't want to answer just say so.

There is nothing wrong with my answer. You're the one showing incredible levels of whataboutery here. Quit acting like the deficit only exists for an independent Scotland. It already exists within the UK. The only difference is, Scotland doesn't have the means to deal with the deficit in it's own way. So it continues to grow as long as we remain part of the UK.

We can either remain in a UK, ran by a government that is rejected by Scotland. Cutting taxes on the wealthiest and shifting as much of the deficit burden on the poor as they can. OR we can leave the UK and piece together our own government who will use more progressive measures for getting our deficit down.

Either way, there's a deficit. It's just a question of who is better placed to deal with it and based on what i've witnessed in my life time, it's not Westminster and their different shades of tory.

[James310]

Ultimately it comes down to an independent Scotland finding its feet, but still in the EU (I’ve seen enough to make me confident we would welcomed in and quickly) v staying in the UK but one that’s not in the EU.

Both are a risk so it’s just down to what leap of faith each of us choose.

How quickly is 'quickly'? We would need our own currency and that could take years. The 6 tests that have been set out for us to adopt our own currency could take 20 years or longer to meet.

[weecounty hibby]

Just a general thought on independence, not even necessarily Scottish. But has there ever been a nation that gained independence, say for example from Great Britain, that has wanted to reverse that decision? Maybe, Australia? What about New Zealand? India, yes of course they must have wanted to be ruled by England, you know the Jewell in the crown of the empire? Maybe some of the smaller countries? Some in the Caribbean maybe? What about some of the African countries? I know what about a country right on our doorstep, Ireland? Really, none of them? But surely they are bankrupt and need to be bailed out by the greats of Westminster? How can they manage without being told what to do, when to do it and how much money they can have to do it? Maybe I'm just a wee bit confused and unable to work any of that out for myself. I'm sure there will be someone along soon to put me right and explain how lucky I am

[James310]

There is nothing wrong with my answer. You're the one showing incredible levels of whataboutery here. Quit acting like the deficit only exists for an independent Scotland. It already exists within the UK. The only difference is, Scotland doesn't have the means to deal with the deficit in it's own way. So it continues to grow as long as we remain part of the UK.

We can either remain in a UK, ran by a government that is rejected by Scotland. Cutting taxes on the wealthiest and shifting as much of the deficit burden on the poor as they can. OR we can leave the UK and piece together our own government who will use more progressive measures for getting our deficit down.

Either way, there's a deficit. It's just a question of who is better placed to deal with it and based on what i've witnessed in my life time, it's not Westminster and their different shades of tory.

So that's you saying no, you won't answer it. See it's annoying when someone tells you what you really mean.

[Fife-Hibee]

That’s really poor stuff from you again. 55% of our fellow Scots took a different view on Independence from me and you. Suggesting the vast majority of them are racist is just plain wrong.
I might be wrong though so please back that up with some facts. Are there polls showing this?

I don't care if it's "really poor stuff" in your view. If you want a poll that proves that the Scottish residents prefer an anti-scottish racist dictating over them as opposed to their own countries soverignty. Then just look at the vast majority of polls that still show that Scottish Independence is out of favour.

[Fife-Hibee]

So that's you saying no, you won't answer it. See it's annoying when someone tells you what you really mean.

I have answered your question. An independent Scotland would have the ability to vote in a government that uses more progressive measures for dealing with the deficit than what we're currently being exposed to by the mafia in London.

[James310]

I have answered your question. An independent Scotland would have the ability to vote in a government that uses more progressive measures for dealing with the deficit than what we're currently being exposed to by the mafia in London.

More progressive measures like what? Ones that raise £30BN?

[weecounty hibby]

I don't care if it's "really poor stuff" in your view. If you want a poll that proves that the Scottish residents prefer an anti-scottish racist dictating over them as opposed to their own countries soverignty. Then just look at the vast majority of polls that still show that Scottish Independence is out of favour.
That is a long way from what you say though. There is no evidence that the majority of the 55 are racist. They just would rather, foolishly in my opinion, rather stay in the union. Having Johnson as PM is just a sad function of that. Hopefully a good few if the 55 will see that as unacceptable and change their views

[Mon Dieu4]

So how would that £30BN gap have been funded? Tax increase, public spending cuts?

Legalise weed, would put a billion or so into the coffers

[marinello59]

I don't care if it's "really poor stuff" in your view. If you want a poll that proves that the Scottish residents prefer an anti-scottish racist dictating over them as opposed to their own countries soverignty. Then just look at the vast majority of polls that still show that Scottish Independence is out of favour.

As I though, nothing to back your comments up. Accusing most of your fellow Scots who disagree with you of being racist really is rather sad.
I really expected nothing more from a good old fashioned blood and soil Nationalist like yourself. Thankfully most of us who support Independence come at it from an alternative and rather more positive viewpoint.

[marinello59]

That is a long way from what you say though. There is no evidence that the majority of the 55 are racist. They just would rather, foolishly in my opinion, rather stay in the union. Having Johnson as PM is just a sad function of that. Hopefully a good few if the 55 will see that as unacceptable and change their views

Exactly.

[Fife-Hibee]

As I though, nothing to back your comments up. Accusing most of your fellow Scots who disagree with you of being racist really is rather sad.
I really expected nothing more from a good old fashioned blood and soil Nationalist like yourself. Thankfully most of us who support Independence come at it from an alternative and rather more positive viewpoint.

Are you asking me to seek out the results of polls over the past several months? Because I believe you and anybody else who reads through these posts knows what the results of them are.

You call me a "good old fansioned blood and soil Nationalist". That's exactly what Boris Johnson is and exactly the kind of people who would rather have him dictate over us over the self sovereign alternative.

[Fife-Hibee]

More progressive measures like what? Ones that raise £30BN?

Better measures that the ones being enforced on us in order to raise the "£30BN".

You seem to have this blinkered idea that the deficit doesn't exist as long as we remain in the UK. It's quite an incredible delusion really.

[James310]

Better measures that the ones being enforced on us in order to raise the "£30BN".

You seem to have this blinkered idea that the deficit doesn't exist as long as we remain in the UK. It's quite an incredible delusion really.

Better measures like what?

[Fife-Hibee]

Better measures like what?

Like not cutting taxes on the wealthest and shifting the vast bulk of the burdren on those with little to no money.

and before you say to me "but how will that close the £30BN gap". That's a problem that already exists without independence. So independence doesn't make the issue any more problematic than it already is.

[marinello59]

Are you asking me to seek out the results of polls over the past several months? Because I believe you and anybody else who reads through these posts knows what the results of them are.

You call me a "good old fansioned blood and soil Nationalist". That's exactly what Boris Johnson is and exactly the kind of people who would rather have him dictate over us over the self sovereign alternative.

You said that the vast majority of people who voted against Independence get their jollies from racism. You really need to back up a slur like that.
I do agree with you that you share a bed with Boris when it comes to objectionable nationalistic views though. See, we can agree.

[Moulin Yarns]

But your wrong in my opinion, Scotland as a nation would likely be bankrupt if we followed Sturgeon. Only a £30BN budget gap from the White Paper and our first Prime Minister potentially facing jail time for serious sexual offences.

How would that gap have been funded?

Robert Walpole is facing jail time for serious sexual offences??? Wow, just wow!!!!

[Fife-Hibee]

You said that the vast majority of people who voted against Independence get their jollies from racism. You really need to back up a slur like that.
I do agree with you that you share a bed with Boris when it comes to objectionable nationalistic views though. See, we can agree.

You want me to take back what you refer to as a "slur", despite there being no evidence to suggest that i'm even wrong. Don't see why the burden of proof should be on me anymore than on yourself.

[weecounty hibby]

You want me to take back what you refer to as a "slur", despite there being no evidence to suggest that i'm even wrong. Don't see why the burden of proof should be on me anymore than on yourself.

I know a few no voters, none of which are racists. All the evidence I need. I think they were wrong in the way they voted but none, not a single one of them is a racist

[Fife-Hibee]

I know a few no voters, none of which are racists. All the evidence I need. I think they were wrong in the way they voted but none, not a single one of them is a racist

I know a few who aren't racists either. I never said they all were.

[marinello59]

You want me to take back what you refer to as a "slur", despite there being no evidence to suggest that i'm even wrong. Don't see why the burden of proof should be on me anymore than on yourself.

Ypu made the statement so the burden of proof is on you.
Happy to be proved wrong if you have something to back up your comments. Remember your allegation is that the vast majority of No voters get their jollies from racism. Please don’t run away from another thread.

[weecounty hibby]

I know a few who aren't racists either. I never said they all were.

So do you know any who are racists?

[marinello59]

I know a few who aren't racists either. I never said they all were.

You said the vast majority were.

[Fife-Hibee]

You said the vast majority were.

I'm sorry. I never realized vast majority meant all.

[Fife-Hibee]

So do you know any who are racists?

The vast majority.

[marinello59]

I'm sorry. I never realized vast majority meant all.

So what does that mean and how has it been measured?

[weecounty hibby]

The vast majority.
Really? I don't believe you. There is no point debating this with you. We are on the same side but you go about it in a way that will stop people voting yes. I know that the way I go about it definitely, 100% had friends and acquaintances of mine change their minds and vote yes.

[The Modfather]

How quickly is 'quickly'? We would need our own currency and that could take years. The 6 tests that have been set out for us to adopt our own currency could take 20 years or longer to meet.

I’m not going to pretend I have any answers, whatever side of the fence we’re debating none of us can speak in absolutes. I believe Scotland would quite easily get back into the EU, and that can only be a good thing for the mid and long term for the country.

As I say, whatever path chosen is fraught with risks. Staying in a UK out of the EU, probably without a deal, is not a good place to be. Who knows what will happen to the pound, who we will trade with and on what terms etc etc. Just as there are questions about Scottish Currency and what kind of country we want to be.

[James310]

I’m not going to pretend I have any answers, whatever side of the fence we’re debating none of us can speak in absolutes. I believe Scotland would quite easily get back into the EU, and that can only be a good thing for the mid and long term for the country.

As I say, whatever path chosen is fraught with risks. Staying in a UK out of the EU, probably without a deal, is not a good place to be. Who knows what will happen to the pound, who we will trade with and on what terms etc etc. Just as there are questions about Scottish Currency and what kind of country we want to be.

Fair enough, but if you feel Scotland will get back into the EU 'quickly' as you put it then you need to realise the reality is somewhat different. We would need our own currency, to get our own currency we would need to pass the 6 tests in the Growth Commission report, they could take decades to meet, may never actually be ever met.

Scotland would get into the EU if it meets the criteria, just like any other country would. But let's not pretend it's a simple thing that will happen in a few years, it could be decades.

[Future17]

I know a few who aren't racists either. I never said they all were.

Are you saying the vast majority of the ones you know are racist?

Out of interest, how do you know them?

[Just Alf]

Fair enough, but if you feel Scotland will get back into the EU 'quickly' as you put it then you need to realise the reality is somewhat different. We would need our own currency, to get our own currency we would need to pass the 6 tests in the Growth Commission report, they could take decades to meet, may never actually be ever met.

Scotland would get into the EU if it meets the criteria, just like any other country would. But let's not pretend it's a simple thing that will happen in a few years, it could be decades.Regarding joining the EU, Finland took less than 3 years and that was with no historical legislative alignment, Scotland is already 100% aligned, what makes you belive Scotland would take much longer?

And for clarity, the treaty specifies a stable economy, there's no specific requirement to have our own currency from the 'get go' .

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[James310]

Regarding joining the EU, Finland took less than 3 years and that was with no historical legislative alignment, Scotland is already 100% aligned, what makes you belive Scotland would take much longer?

And for clarity, the treaty specifies a stable economy, there's no specific requirement to have our own currency from the 'get go' .

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

You can not join the EU using the currency of a country outside the EU, using a central bank of a country outside the EU.

If we get our own currency and meet all the other criteria then yes we can join, just like everyone else.

Just need to pass those 6 tests.

[lord bunberry]

The latter at the moment, Boris is bad news, but no point jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I think he will be limited in the damage he can do if he becomes PM but the damage that Sturgeon and Co would do will be like nothing we have never seen before.

Also he will move on, he will maybe last a few years but the damage Sturgeon and her cronies would do to the economy would last for generations to come.

That clear enough for you?
****in he’ll. I really used to have a lot of respect for you and your opinions even though they are clearly opposed to mine, but that post has left me wondering if I’ve been wrong all this time. If that’s really what you believe then I genuinely despair for this country.

[James310]

****in he’ll. I really used to have a lot of respect for you and your opinions even though they are clearly opposed to mine, but that post has left me wondering if I’ve been wrong all this time. If that’s really what you believe then I genuinely despair for this country.

I don't like Boris, but what do you think he will do? No matter what Tory was in power he or she would be the devil to many. Do you think he will advocate exterminating Scottish people like the poem he published?

Anything he wants to do has to get through Parliament, just like anything any PM wants to do. A few years of bluster and soundbytes is what will probably happen and then he will be gone.

I could be completely wrong, time will tell.

[lord bunberry]

Just a general thought on independence, not even necessarily Scottish. But has there ever been a nation that gained independence, say for example from Great Britain, that has wanted to reverse that decision? Maybe, Australia? What about New Zealand? India, yes of course they must have wanted to be ruled by England, you know the Jewell in the crown of the empire? Maybe some of the smaller countries? Some in the Caribbean maybe? What about some of the African countries? I know what about a country right on our doorstep, Ireland? Really, none of them? But surely they are bankrupt and need to be bailed out by the greats of Westminster? How can they manage without being told what to do, when to do it and how much money they can have to do it? Maybe I'm just a wee bit confused and unable to work any of that out for myself. I'm sure there will be someone along soon to put me right and explain how lucky I am
You are lucky my friend, you’re lucky that you see this unequal union for what it is. There isn’t one country that has left the empire that has wanted to return. The arguments for remaining are utterly pathetic and revolve around issues like currency and sovereignty. The fact is that Scotland is a wealthy country that is rich in natural resources and woukd thrive on its own.

[lord bunberry]

I don't like Boris, but what do you think he will do? No matter what Tory was in power he or she would be the devil to many. Do you think he will advocate exterminating Scottish people like the poem he published?

Anything he wants to do has to get through Parliament, just like anything any PM wants to do. A few years of bluster and soundbytes is what will probably happen and then he will be gone.

I could be completely wrong, time will tell.
Boris is our Trump. Unlike many people I think he will win a general election, he is unbelievably seen as a man of the people and he’s very popular amongst the working classes. What I think he’ll do is aligne us with America and drag us into a war with Iran. I don’t want to be part of a war that’s designed by arms dealers in America because they need somewhere to shoot there new weapons.

[James310]

Boris is our Trump. Unlike many people I think he will win a general election, he is unbelievably seen as a man of the people and he’s very popular amongst the working classes. What I think he’ll do is aligne us with America and drag us into a war with Iran. I don’t want to be part of a war that’s designed by arms dealers in America because they need somewhere to shoot there new weapons.

Well Parliament would have to vote to go to war if that's what he wanted. Personally don't see that happening.

[marinello59]

Well Parliament would have to vote to go to war if that's what he wanted. Personally don't see that happening.

You don’t see Tory politicians desperate to advance their own careers backing their leader?

[James310]

You don’t see Tory politicians desperate to advance their own careers backing their leader?

I think after the Iraq scenario then I don't see politicians backing a war against Iran for no other reason than because the US wanted one.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think after the Iraq scenario then I don't see politicians backing a war against Iran for no other reason than because the US wanted one.

Same was said after Gulf War 1, Afghanistan and countless wars before that. What makes you so sure this one is different? With the UK leaving the EU, they need to suck up deep with Uncle Sam.

[James310]

****in he’ll. I really used to have a lot of respect for you and your opinions even though they are clearly opposed to mine, but that post has left me wondering if I’ve been wrong all this time. If that’s really what you believe then I genuinely despair for this country.

Also..I am not going to change my position on Independence overnight on the basis of what one man, who is not even confirmed as the PM, might do. Would you flip from pro Indy to being against Indy on the basis of what one person might do, what might happen? I doubt you would, so why are you so shocked that I don't.

[James310]

Same was said after Gulf War 1, Afghanistan and countless wars before that. What makes you so sure this one is different? With the UK leaving the EU, they need to suck up deep with Uncle Sam.

You might be right, don't see it myself though.

[Hibrandenburg]

You might be right, don't see it myself though.

That's an incredibly optimistic view considering recent History, our current government, need for trading partners, political climate and likely Prime Minister.

[lapsedhibee]

Bojoke's dad on the radiobox just now defending his son. Spaffing Latin phrases around. TF is the matter with these peeps?

[marinello59]

Bojoke's dad on the radiobox just now defending his son. Spaffing Latin phrases around. TF is the matter with these peeps?

They seem to believe that throwing random Latin phrases about in a posh voice makes up for a lack of substance.

[Sylar]

That's an incredibly optimistic view considering recent History, our current government, need for trading partners, political climate and likely Prime Minister.

While I don't disagree more generally with your argument, I'd just like to add a caveat that our most recent vote on military action in the Commons was to reject intervention in Syria to support the US after Assad's use of chemical weapons.

[Hibrandenburg]

While I don't disagree more generally with your argument, I'd just like to add a caveat that our most recent vote on military action in the Commons was to reject intervention in Syria to support the US after Assad's use of chemical weapons.

Yet the first known coalition casualties in Syria were 2 British soldiers.

[Moulin Yarns]

You can not join the EU using the currency of a country outside the EU, using a central bank of a country outside the EU.

If we get our own currency and meet all the other criteria then yes we can join, just like everyone else.

Just need to pass those 6 tests.

Is there any evidence to back that up, about the currency? As far as I, and others, can see you are the only one stating it as fact.

[lord bunberry]

Also..I am not going to change my position on Independence overnight on the basis of what one man, who is not even confirmed as the PM, might do. Would you flip from pro Indy to being against Indy on the basis of what one person might do, what might happen? I doubt you would, so why are you so shocked that I don't.
I very much doubt you’ll ever change from no to yes, but we live in hope:greengrin

[James310]

Is there any evidence to back that up, about the currency? As far as I, and others, can see you are the only one stating it as fact.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17600349.scottish-independence-how-and-when-scotland-could-rejoin-the-eu/



"If Scotland had kept the pound sterling, but the UK was outside the EU, then Scotland would not be able to demonstrate that it could commit to join the euro at some indefinite future point.

Nor – if it took up to a decade to adopt its own currency – could it show that as a member state it would use its independent monetary policy to target price stability and make its exchange rate a ‘matter of common concern’ with other member states (as required by the EU’s Lisbon treaty)."

There you go. So first point is SNP policy, keep the pound for a period of time until the 6 tests are met. No EU membership while we have the pound.

Second point, if we get our own currency, let's say 20 years (if you think that's too long tell us why) then it's another period of transition to show you can meet all the other criteria.

Do you seriously think the EU would let a country join while using the currency of a country outside the EU, while having no central bank and therefore no monetary and fiscal policy of its own. Infact the fiscal and monetary policy controlled by another country outside the EU.

Scotland will be able to join the EU like any other country, if it meets the criteria. It's just going to take a very long time. But funnily enough you never hear the SNP talk about that.

[lord bunberry]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17600349.scottish-independence-how-and-when-scotland-could-rejoin-the-eu/



"If Scotland had kept the pound sterling, but the UK was outside the EU, then Scotland would not be able to demonstrate that it could commit to join the euro at some indefinite future point.

Nor – if it took up to a decade to adopt its own currency – could it show that as a member state it would use its independent monetary policy to target price stability and make its exchange rate a ‘matter of common concern’ with other member states (as required by the EU’s Lisbon treaty)."

There you go. So first point is SNP policy, keep the pound for a period of time until the 6 tests are met. No EU membership while we have the pound.

Second point, if we get our own currency, let's say 20 years (if you think that's too long tell us why) then it's another period of transition to show you can meet all the other criteria.

Do you seriously think the EU would let a country join while using the currency of a country outside the EU, while having no central bank and therefore no monetary and fiscal policy of its own. Infact the fiscal and monetary policy controlled by another country outside the EU.

Scotland will be able to join the EU like any other country, if it meets the criteria. It's just going to take a very long time. But funnily enough you never hear the SNP talk about that.
You do hear the EU talking about Scotland not having any issues joining though.

[James310]

You do hear the EU talking about Scotland not having any issues joining though.

If it meets the criteria yes, why wouldn't they allow Scotland to join if they meet the criteria? Just like any other country.

[lord bunberry]

If it meets the criteria yes, why wouldn't they allow Scotland to join if they meet the criteria? Just like any other country.
You’re making a lot of assumptions on behalf of what the EU will decide if Scotland is using sterling post independence.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Feel the love!A poem published by Boris Johnson when he was editor of Spectator magazine.

The Scotch - what a verminous race!

Canny, pushy, chippy, they're all over the place.

Battening off us with false bonhomie;

Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

As provocatively, offensively foreign!

It's time Hadrian's Wall was refortified

To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

I would go further. The nation

Deserves not merely isolation

But comprehensive extermination.

We must not flinch from a solution.

WTF is that? Is meant to be funny to the weirdos who read The Spectator?

[James310]

You’re making a lot of assumptions on behalf of what the EU will decide if Scotland is using sterling post independence.

I am not making any assumptions, it's the EUs own criteria.

[Sylar]

Yet the first known coalition casualties in Syria were 2 British soldiers.

I'm perhaps just missing this story, but to the best of my (albeit, quick) research abilities, I can only find one official British serviceman that was killed in Syria, and that was in March 2018? The only record I can see of two British personnel being killed are journalists?

Regardless, it was hardly the full scale deployment we've seen in the other combat situations you've cited. The UK military did not deploy to Syria in a government backed move.

[Bristolhibby]

Is there any evidence to back that up, about the currency? As far as I, and others, can see you are the only one stating it as fact.

It’s not true. You have to be working toward the Euro. Which can go on forever.

Let’s put it in perspective. Sweden has been “working towards the Euro”, it still has the Swedish Crown.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

It’s not true. You have to be working toward the Euro. Which can go on forever.

Let’s put it in perspective. Sweden has been “working towards the Euro”, it still has the Swedish Crown.

J

I know that, you know that, but still we have people saying otherwise.

[James310]

It’s not true. You have to be working toward the Euro. Which can go on forever.

Let’s put it in perspective. Sweden has been “working towards the Euro”, it still has the Swedish Crown.

J

The Swedish crown is its own currency. It's not a similar situation until we get our own currency. How long will that take in your opinion and why?

[JeMeSouviens]

Is there any evidence to back that up, about the currency? As far as I, and others, can see you are the only one stating it as fact.

No there’s no evidence. It’s blatant, shameless lying. On and on and on ...

[Moulin Yarns]

No there’s no evidence. It’s blatant, shameless lying. On and on and on ...

Yep, and on and on and on.........

[James310]

Yep, and on and on and on.........

So what's a lie? You never replied until the others did, jumping on the bandwagon there.

So how long until we get our own currency and be like Sweden?

[JeMeSouviens]

Accession criteria for the EU

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/glossary/terms/accession-criteria_en

Nothing about currency (surprise!) as that is to do with Eurozone membership. Which isn’t the same thing, no matter how often Goebbels310 repeats themselves.

[Moulin Yarns]

So what's a lie? You never replied until the others did, jumping on the bandwagon there.

So how long until we get our own currency and be like Sweden?

Now who is trolling 🤔😁

[Moulin Yarns]

Accession criteria for the EU

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/glossary/terms/accession-criteria_en

Nothing about currency (surprise!) as that is to do with Eurozone membership. Which isn’t the same thing, no matter how often Goebbels310 repeats themselves.


🤔😉

[James310]

Chapter 17

"The acquis in the area of economic and monetary policy contains specific rules requiring the independence of central banks in Member States, prohibiting direct financing of the public sector by the central banks and prohibiting privileged access of the public sector to financial institutions. Member States are expected to co-ordinate their economic policies and are subject to the Stability and Growth Pact on fiscal surveillance. New Member States are also committed to complying with the criteria laid down in the Treaty in order to be able to adopt the euro in due course after accession. Until then, they will participate in the Economic and Monetary Union as a Member State with a derogation from the use of the euro and shall treat their exchange rates as a matter of common concern."

While we continue to have Sterling the Bank of England will be our central bank, that's not our own independent central bank as per the rules above, it's the central bank of another country.

When we get our own currency we need to agree to adopt the Euro, like it says above. To be like Sweden and never actually commit to it we need our own currency, like Sweden has, to get our own currency we need to pass 6 tests that could take decades.

This debate was about how quickly Scotland could join the EU, with someone saying it would be quickly, the evidence suggests otherwise.

It's SNP policy to only introduce a new currency once the 6 tests have been met, who wants to take a stab at explaining those tests and how long they think they will take to meet and pass? Anyone?

[heretoday]

Chapter 17

"The acquis in the area of economic and monetary policy contains specific rules requiring the independence of central banks in Member States, prohibiting direct financing of the public sector by the central banks and prohibiting privileged access of the public sector to financial institutions. Member States are expected to co-ordinate their economic policies and are subject to the Stability and Growth Pact on fiscal surveillance. New Member States are also committed to complying with the criteria laid down in the Treaty in order to be able to adopt the euro in due course after accession. Until then, they will participate in the Economic and Monetary Union as a Member State with a derogation from the use of the euro and shall treat their exchange rates as a matter of common concern."

While we continue to have Sterling the Bank of England will be our central bank, that's not our own independent central bank as per the rules above, it's the central bank of another country.

When we get our own currency we need to agree to adopt the Euro, like it says above. To be like Sweden and never actually commit to it we need our own currency, like Sweden has, to get our own currency we need to pass 6 tests that could take decades.

This debate was about how quickly Scotland could join the EU, with someone saying it would be quickly, the evidence suggests otherwise.

It's SNP policy to only introduce a new currency once the 6 tests have been met, who wants to take a stab at explaining those tests and how long they think they will take to meet and pass? Anyone?

I can't see the SNP hurrying to explain these things to us. They like to give the impression that after a quick referendum, "a rush and a push and the world is ours" - to quote the bard.

[James310]

I can't see the SNP hurrying to explain these things to us. They like to give the impression that after a quick referendum, "a rush and a push and the world is ours" - to quote the bard.

Like the Brexiteers, it will all be fine and Brussels will make a special case for us. It will be dead easy.

[Moulin Yarns]

Like the Brexiteers, it will all be fine and Brussels will make a special case for us. It will be dead easy.

Talking of Brexiteers? How is that working out for you?

[James310]

Talking of Brexiteers? How is that working out for you?

I have been consistently against Brexit, never voted for it and think it's a terrible idea. We should be aiming to stay in political, economic and social unions, don't you agree?

[The Modfather]

I have been consistently against Brexit, never voted for it and think it's a terrible idea. We should be aiming to stay in political, economic and social unions, don't you agree?

Yes, but your opinion on the economic suicide of Brexit and a no deal Brexit can be summed up as, “yes, it’s a bit sh*t but it is what it is” where as “Independence will be Armageddon”.

I don’t see the same level of balance on both subjects from you IMO. Although you’re not alone as some of the SNP supporters do exactly the same.

[James310]

Yes, but your opinion on the economic suicide of Brexit and a no deal Brexit can be summed up as, “yes, it’s a bit sh*t but it is what it is” where as “Independence will be Armageddon”.

I don’t see the same level of balance on both subjects from you IMO. Although you’re not alone as some of the SNP supporters do exactly the same.

I accept democracy as well. Both were voted on via referendums and we voted to Leave so I accept that. I do think a no deal could be as bad as it gets though, Armageddon as you say? perhaps....let's pray that never happens. Indy would make a bad situation much worse.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm not following the Tory leadership debate on Channel 4, but I see they've left an empty podium where Bozo was supposed to be. What a comtemptuous and cowardly thing to refuse to participate.

[Fife-Hibee]

I'm not following the Tory leadership debate on Channel 4, but I see they've left an empty podium where Bozo was supposed to be. What a comtemptuous and cowardly thing to refuse to participate.

As I said a couple of days ago. He doesn't have to turn up to them. They're utterly meaningless. The leadership will be won on the bribery and backstabbing that goes on behind the scenes. Not what is said on a podium in front of cameras.

[Callum_62]

Watched some of the debate.

Rory Stewart by far the most impressive

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

Watched some of the debate.

Rory Stewart by far the most impressive

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

Caught the second half.

Hunt was probably most statesmanlike and appeared very magnanimous when stepping in after Gove was challenged about his cocaine dabbling.

Gove got carried away a couple of times and dropped a clanger when answering the question from the woman with a son on the autistic spectrum.

Saj actually wasn’t terrible, within context. Raab seemed out on a limb.

Stewart seemed to have a barnstormer, albeit I didn’t see the whole programme. This could be a real breakthrough moment for him. He certainly did very well in setting a narrative of him being the ‘honest outsider’ which probably helps given I picked up that Saj had challenged him earlier in the debate on being Eton and Oxford-educated.

[Bristolhibby]

The Swedish crown is its own currency. It's not a similar situation until we get our own currency. How long will that take in your opinion and why?

Straight away.

We own a part of the Bank of England. We own Sterling.

Should we let the rUK use Sterling? And if not why?

J

[Fife-Hibee]

Rory certainly has that calm psychopathic charm about him.

https://i.ibb.co/BNrm4ct/rapey.jpg

[lapsedhibee]

Stewart seemed to have a barnstormer, albeit I didn’t see the whole programme. This could be a real breakthrough moment for him. He certainly did very well in setting a narrative of him being the ‘honest outsider’ which probably helps given I picked up that Saj had challenged him earlier in the debate on being Eton and Oxford-educated.

Didn't see it but that was quite predictable - he's been consistently impressive in interviews and will eat Bojoke alive in a F2F. Convinced he was the main reason the Oafus Fatus didn't turn up tonight, hoping that Stewart gets knocked out before the BBC debate.

[James310]

Straight away.

We own a part of the Bank of England. We own Sterling.

Should we let the rUK use Sterling? And if not why?

J

So you are saying the 6 tests will be passed immediately? Are you serious with that statement?

If so then I am sorry I can't take you seriously.

What you are saying is at odds with the SNP policy agreed at their conference.

[Just Alf]

The Swedish crown is its own currency. It's not a similar situation until we get our own currency. How long will that take in your opinion and why?The Slovaks got independence on 1st Jan and had introduced a new currency by mid February, so it could be done really quickly if required, so I suppose I could ask the question what specifically makes you think Scotland would be likely to take much longer than recent similar examples?

Edit, I see you've mentioned the 6 tests, that's the SNP criteria currently, if its a Labour or Tory led government they may have a different view.

[James310]

The Slovaks got independence on 1st Jan and had introduced a new currency by mid February, so it could be done really quickly if required, so I suppose I could ask the question what specifically makes you think Scotland would be likely to take much longer than recent similar examples?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/nicola-sturgeon-independent-scotland-with-pound-wouldn-t-be-panama-1-4745894

[Moulin Yarns]

Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/nicola-sturgeon-independent-scotland-with-pound-wouldn-t-be-panama-1-4745894

Here we go again, Scotland has already got all the EU criteria in place.

Scotland has financial services, etc in place, Slovakia had to start from scratch, suggesting that it will be so much easier.

And change your mortgage to a Scottish provider, I've explained that to you already.

[ronaldo7]

Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/nicola-sturgeon-independent-scotland-with-pound-wouldn-t-be-panama-1-4745894

Aye, they had nothing to do politically with the Czech Republic, nobody had a mortgage or pension there. They were all just living in caves.

They're just not like is at all. 😂😂😂

[Hibrandenburg]

Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/nicola-sturgeon-independent-scotland-with-pound-wouldn-t-be-panama-1-4745894

Yep, Scotland is too weak, poor, inadequate, incapable, dependant, stupid, divided, socialist.... to make a success of running it's own affairs. Better to remain on the teat of Westminster who only have our best interest at heart.

[The Modfather]

Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/nicola-sturgeon-independent-scotland-with-pound-wouldn-t-be-panama-1-4745894

As I said on another thread about Fife Hibs’ nonsense about the majority of no voters being anti Scottish racists, and that doing independence no favours. Similarly your efforts to paint Scotland as somehow a negatively unique example of a country potentially becoming independent doesn’t do your pro union arguments any favours either.

[Smartie]

Caught the second half.

Hunt was probably most statesmanlike and appeared very magnanimous when stepping in after Gove was challenged about his cocaine dabbling.

Gove got carried away a couple of times and dropped a clanger when answering the question from the woman with a son on the autistic spectrum.

Saj actually wasn’t terrible, within context. Raab seemed out on a limb.

Stewart seemed to have a barnstormer, albeit I didn’t see the whole programme. This could be a real breakthrough moment for him. He certainly did very well in setting a narrative of him being the ‘honest outsider’ which probably helps given I picked up that Saj had challenged him earlier in the debate on being Eton and Oxford-educated.

Stewart seems to appeal a great deal more to non-Tories than the alternatives.

For a Prime Minister at a difficult time for our country that would undoubtedly be a good thing.

Sadly the Tories will be looking for a ******* to represent their *******-like interests, so he won't get very far.

He is an infinitely better candidate than Boris and Gove.

I'm actually surprised at how acceptable the rest of them are managing to make Hunt look.

[Hibrandenburg]

Stewart seems to appeal a great deal more to non-Tories than the alternatives.

For a Prime Minister at a difficult time for our country that would undoubtedly be a good thing.

Sadly the Tories will be looking for a ******* to represent their *******-like interests, so he won't get very far.

He is an infinitely better candidate than Boris and Gove.

I'm actually surprised at how acceptable the rest of them are managing to make Hunt look.

The debates are utterly meaningless due to the fact that most Tories will have already made up their mind. A T.V. debate only really makes sense when the public are the one's who get to choose.

[James310]

I am sorry people don't like the facts.

One comment was we have the final services in place, not sure if that was meant as financial institutions required to join the EU. Do we have our own central bank which is required to join the EU? No we don't. Will we be in charge of our own monetary and fiscal policy while we have Sterling? No we won't.

There are plans to establish a Central Bank, we certainly need one with our own currency. We get our own currency when we meet the 6 tests, so again I challenge anyone to explain the 6 tests, when they will be achieved and how they will be achieved. Anyone? You all seem so confident so give it a go.

Anyone else think the tests will be met immediately like another poster seems to believe?

If it's all so simple, should be easy for you all.

[James310]

Yep, Scotland is too weak, poor, inadequate, incapable, dependant, stupid, divided, socialist.... to make a success of running it's own affairs. Better to remain on the teat of Westminster who only have our best interest at heart.

You can put your fingers in your ears and pretend it will all be fine if you like, your just like Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab...it will be fine, we are Scotland so it will all be fine. Don't worry about the details, it will all be fine.

Do you want to take a stab at telling us how long we will be sterlingised, and then how long the 6 tests will take? Go on, give it a go.

[The Modfather]

I am sorry people don't like the facts.

One comment was we have the final services in place, not sure if that was meant as financial institutions required to join the EU. Do we have our own central bank which is required to join the EU? No we don't. Will we be in charge of our own monetary and fiscal policy while we have Sterling? No we won't.

There are plans to establish a Central Bank, we certainly need one with our own currency. We get our own currency when we meet the 6 tests, so again I challenge anyone to explain the 6 tests, when they will be achieved and how they will be achieved. Anyone? You all seem so confident so give it a go.

If it's all so simple, should be easy for you all.

What is it you want in terms of an answer? Your post talked about the “facts”, as has been pointed out numerous times your “facts” are like me asking for you to give me the “facts” around the UK post Brexit, most of it is open to interpretation.

Whether it is in Scotland’s best interests to become independent is the actual debate, and where people can be persuaded one way or the other. There have been numerous examples over the months giving examples of countries who have become independent and others who have joined the EU as a newly independent nation. Whether that is a better position to be in than to remain in the UK is the debate to be had, but your attempts to paint Scotland becoming independent as some unprecedented feat too complex and difficult to fathom so it’s best just not to bother is tiresome and disingenuous IMO.

[James310]

What is it you want in terms of an answer? Your post talked about the “facts”, as has been pointed out numerous times your “facts” are like me asking for you to give me the “facts” around the UK post Brexit, most of it is open to interpretation.

Whether it is in Scotland’s best interests to become independent is the actual debate, and where people can be persuaded one way or the other. There have been numerous examples over the months giving examples of countries who have become independent and others who have joined the EU as a newly independent nation. Whether that is a better position to be in than to remain in the UK is the debate to be had, but your attempts to paint Scotland becoming independent as some unprecedented feat too complex and difficult to fathom so it’s best just not to bother is tiresome and disingenuous IMO.

The facts are that chapter 17 of the Maastricht treaty which deals with monetary policy state any country wanting to join the EU must have a fully independently run central bank.

The facts are while we are Sterlingised we will not have a central bank. So we will not be joining the EU while we have Sterling. So for however long we use Sterling we will not be joining the EU, that is clear.


So the further facts are that to get our own currency which requires a central bank we need to pass the following 6 tests. This is SNP policy.

1) Fiscal sustainability: Has the Scottish Government sustainably secured its fiscal policy objectives and sufficiently strong and credible fiscal position, in relation to budget deficit and overall debt level?

2) Central Bank credibility and stability of debt issuance: Has the Scottish Central Bank and Government framework established sufficient international and market credibility evidenced by the price and the stability of the price of its debt issuance?

3) Financial requirements of Scottish residents and businesses: Would a separate currency meet the on-going needs of Scottish residents and businesses for stability and continuity of their financial arrangements and command wide support?

4) Sufficiency of foreign exchange and financial reserves: Does Scotland have sufficient reserves to allow currency management?

5) Fit to trade and investment patterns: Would the new arrangement better reflect Scotland’s new and developing trading or investment patterns?

6) Correlation of economic and trade cycle: Is the economic cycle in Scotland significantly out of phase with that of the rest of the UK, or at least as well correlated with the cycles of other trading and investment partners, thus making an independent monetary policy feasible and desirable?


Now the question was how long will it take Scotland to join the EU, many on here seem to think it will be a few years and relatively easy.

On what basis is that assumption founded when you look at the facts? You can quote Slovakia or whatever but the facts are above, that is the path that the SNP have chosen. So let's stick to that path, not the path that other countries have taken as the circumstances are different.

So based on the facts above, my opinion is Scotland will be out the EU for a long time. Why? Because we will have Sterling for an undetermined period of time, and the 6 tests are almost impossible to meet over the short to medium term. We are talking long term here, not within a few years.

Now I have taken the time to fully explain my reasons, does anyone want to tell me in the same details why it's wrong? Or does it all happen behind the scenes and computers and stuff will sort it out.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yep, Scotland is too weak, poor, inadequate, incapable, dependant, stupid, divided, socialist.... to make a success of running it's own affairs. Better to remain on the teat of Westminster who only have our best interest at heart.

The only people who say that are people like you essentially.

You want to create this false narrative that no one else is even suggesting.

I guess trying to create resentment by using the language you do makes up for a vacuum of any rational arguments to make your case.

”..The teat of Westminster”, really? That’s just silly.

Also not sure whether to question what ‘our best interest’ means when I actually live in Scotland and you don’t :confused:. What claim have you to use the word “Our”?

Especially when a clear majority rejected the referendum result you wanted, admittedly much to your chagrin and wrath in the aftermath.

[Fife-Hibee]

The only people who say that are people like you essentially.

You want to create this false narrative that no one else is even suggesting.

I guess trying to create resentment by using the language you do makes up for a vacuum of any rational arguments to make your case.

”..The teat of Westminster”, really? That’s just silly.

Also not sure whether to question what ‘our best interest’ means when I actually live in Scotland and you don’t :confused:. What claim have you to use the word “Our”?

Especially when a clear majority rejected the referendum result you wanted, admittedly much to your chagrin and wrath in the aftermath.

So tell us, what is the true narrative that we should all be following? Clearly you must know, if you're talking down other narratives being presented.

[Mibbes Aye]

So tell us, what is the true narrative that we should all be following? Clearly you must know, if you're talking down other narratives being presented.

I think you misunderstand the concept of narratives.

[Fife-Hibee]

I think you misunderstand the concept of narratives.

Then please, feel free to explain the concept that I appear to be struggling to grasp here. Your post seemed to suggest that Hibrandenburg was presenting a narrative that nobody else follows.

I'd be interested to know which narratives you believe people do follow.

[Mibbes Aye]

Then please, feel free to explain the concept that I appear to be struggling to grasp here. Your post seemed to suggest that Hibrandenburg was presenting a narrative that nobody else follows.

I'd be interested to know which narratives you believe people do follow.

I’m happy to explain the concept you say you are struggling to grasp, though I am sure, in fact know from experience that Hibrandenburg can speak for himself.

You asked what ‘true narrative’ I was presenting as ‘clearly’ I had one. I suggested no such thing.

In this context, narratives are social constructions. I have challenged the validity of the one that was put forward in the post I quoted and have done similarly in the past.

I challenged it because the portrayal of ‘Scottish’ people as too downtrodden or scared or powerless is often used by those advocating nationalism, as an example of what they term ‘Scottish cringe’.

Unfortunately, it is advocates of nationalism alone who tend to use this argument, which suggests that it is actually a rather shabby device to stir up resentment. It fits very well with the separatist response to the referendum result, where No voters were either stupid, scared or senile though.

In answer to your last point, that’s why I queried your grasp of narratives. Narratives are fluid, dynamic and ultimately constructed by the interchange of language, ideas, discourse and in this day and age, everything from Twitter through to what books people read and what conversations they have with family, friends and colleagues through to what adverts they see and what they watch on YouTube, Netflix or Amazon Prime. Narratives are always contested and contestable but obviously some carry more weight at certain times and certain places than others do.

[Fife-Hibee]

I’m happy to explain the concept you say you are struggling to grasp, though I am sure, in fact know from experience that Hibrandenburg can speak for himself.

You asked what ‘true narrative’ I was presenting as ‘clearly’ I had one. I suggested no such thing.

In this context, narratives are social constructions. I have challenged the validity of the one that was put forward in the post I quoted and have done similarly in the past.

I challenged it because the portrayal of ‘Scottish’ people as too downtrodden or scared or powerless is often used by those advocating nationalism, as an example of what they term ‘Scottish cringe’.

Unfortunately, it is advocates of nationalism alone who tend to use this argument, which suggests that it is actually a rather shabby device to stir up resentment. It fits very well with the separatist response to the referendum result, where No voters were either stupid, scared or senile though.

In answer to your last point, that’s why I queried your grasp of narratives. Narratives are fluid, dynamic and ultimately constructed by the interchange of language, ideas, discourse and in this day and age, everything from Twitter through to what books people read and what conversations they have with family, friends and colleagues through to what adverts they see and what they watch on YouTube, Netflix or Amazon Prime. Narratives are always contested and contestable but obviously some carry more weight at certain times and certain places than others do.

I'm sure they can. I just thought i'd ease in on this as you appeared to be claiming that they and them alone only held such a narrative. Good to see that you've corrected it with this post though. Suddenly it has gone from being the narrative of 1 individual to the narrative of over 1 and a half million.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm sure they can. I just thought i'd ease in on this as you appeared to be claiming that they and them alone only held such a narrative. Good to see that you've corrected it with this post though. Suddenly it has gone from being the narrative of 1 individual to the narrative of over 1 and a half million.

You are struggling now I’m afraid.

If you go back and look at the posts I said ‘people like you’ and in the next sentence said ‘you’. It’s still a plural even if you chose to read it wrong.

And it’s not the narrative of 1.5 million.

It’s the narrative of a really disaffected minority who haven’t come to terms with the result and want to create a story of resentment and playing the Scottish electorate as stupid, weak or both.

[Fife-Hibee]

You are struggling now I’m afraid.

If you go back and look at the posts I said ‘people like you’ and in the next sentence said ‘you’. It’s still a plural even if you chose to read it wrong.

And it’s not the narrative of 1.5 million.

It’s the narrative of a really disaffected minority who haven’t come to terms with the result and want to create a story of resentment and playing the Scottish electorate as stupid, weak or both.

You said "You want to create this false narrative that no one else is even suggesting."

I'm asking you what the true narrative is. You appear to be taking on the narrative of people "playing the Scottish electorate". Yet, you've provided nothing that gives your narrative anymore credibility than the narrative presented by Hibrandenburg.

You appear to be under the impression that your narrative is law and any narrative you don't agree with is false.

[Mibbes Aye]

You said "You want to create this false narrative that no one else is even suggesting."

I'm asking you what the true narrative is. You appear to be taking on the narrative of people "playing the Scottish electorate". Yet, you've provided nothing that gives your narrative anymore credibility than the narrative presented by Hibrandenburg.

You appear to be under the impression that your narrative is law and any narrative you don't agree with is false.

As I say, you don’t seem to grasp the concept of narratives.

They are not there to be ‘true’, that would be stupid, and I’m not suggesting there is a true narrative, by definition they are subjective and constructed.

What there are however is false or falsely constructed narratives, which are a particular trope of nationalists and should be challenged at every opportunity, on the basis that they seem to lack rationale.

Your last sentence is unworthy, I make no such claim, I’d like you to demonstrate my narrative and where I said it was law. In your own time.

Are you on this thread for respite from Hibbyradge on the other thread? You are struggling a bit on both, to be honest.

[lapsedhibee]

The debates are utterly meaningless due to the fact that most Tories will have already made up their mind. A T.V. debate only really makes sense when the public are the one's who get to choose.

Possibly too late to affect the outcome of this leadership election, but these debates may well have a bearing on what happens in the next one in November/December.

[James310]

Aye, they had nothing to do politically with the Czech Republic, nobody had a mortgage or pension there. They were all just living in caves.

They're just not like is at all. 😂😂😂

All their mortgages and pensions were converted to Euros, all our mortgages and pensions will not be converted to the new currency. So no, not like our situation at all, you were correct there. Unless you have proof otherwise. Please share.

But let's stick to the path we have chosen, not some other country who chose a different path. So in your opinion how long will we be using Sterling for, and what is your opinion on the 6 tests, how long would test 6 for example take to achieve? Separation of our trading and economic cycle with the rest of the UK will surely take some time? All relevant to the question about Scotland joining the EU.

I imagine your response will be some emojis and an avoidance of the question, because when anyone asks a question that requires an answer of substance you go back to the emojis. Let's see.

[ronaldo7]

All their mortgages and pensions were converted to Euros, all our mortgages and pensions will not be converted to the new currency. So no not like our situation at all, you were correct there. Unless you have proof otherwise. Please share.

But let's stick to the path we have chosen, not some other country who chose a different path. So in your opinion how long will we be using Sterling for, and what is your opinion on the 6 tests, how long would test 6 for example take to achieve? Separation of our trading and economic cycle with the rest of the UK will surely take some time?

I imagine your response will be some emojis and an avoidance of the question, because when anyone asks a question that requires an answer of substance you go back to the emojis. Let's see.

When you give me the answer of how, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic had nothing to do with each other politically, which you've said, we can maybe move on. Considering they shared an area of land with each other for some time, I'd be interested how they could have avoided each other for so long.

The Velvet divorce is one you should read up on. It will eventually take you to an actual country being set up, with a currency in a number of weeks.

The trouble is, you don't want to hear of these things which "actually occurred", it doesn't suit your narrative of, it's too hard.

At least you're on the correct thread today. Tories are lying *******s, traces of tory, with a hint of lib Dem.

I'm off to work now, so I'll leave you to your morning read of the daily heil, and torygraph.

[James310]

When you give me the answer of how, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic had nothing to do with each other politically, which you've said, we can maybe move on. Considering they shared an area of land with each other for some time, I'd be interested how they could have avoided each other for so long.

The Velvet divorce is one you should read up on. It will eventually take you to an actual country being set up, with a currency in a number of weeks.

The trouble is, you don't want to hear of these things which "actually occurred", it doesn't suit your narrative of, it's too hard.

At least you're on the correct thread today. Tories are lying *******s, traces of tory, with a hint of lib Dem.

I'm off to work now, so I'll leave you to your morning read of the daily heil, and torygraph.

Ok, I was wrong in that one aspect. But Slovakias path is nothing like the path Scotland has chosen. I have laid out the path the SNP have chosen, let's focus on that.

Now can you answer the questions? No emojis allowed.

[Fife-Hibee]

Ok, I was wrong in that one aspect. But Slovakias path is nothing like the path Scotland has chosen. I have laid out the path the SNP have chosen, let's focus on that.

Now can you answer the questions? No emojis allowed.

What’s the SNPs path got to do with anything? What is it with unionists and this idea that an independent Scotland somehow equates to an SNP Scotland? An independent Scotland may well reject the SNP vision. Independence gives us the power to do that.

It’s terrifying just how many people in Scotland have bought into the “independence = SNP = bad” narrative in the British MSM.

Try actually thinking for a change.