The Trans Rights Debate

[Hibby Bairn]

I think it was hijacked in the service of the union today. I don’t believe for a minute Jack give a hoot about any of the issues involved.
I agree the public don’t care much about the issue though. They do care about the parliament though.


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I'm not sure they do care about the Parliament. What they care about is getting an ambulance, cared for in old age, good schools, properly looked after in hospital, access to a dentist, security of income when support of the state is needed, law and order, decent transport, good roads etc etc.

It's up to the government and Parliament to deliver that. If the Scottish version can't do it well enough then an alternative needs to be found.

It'd be good if the SG could focus on the core devolved matters to the same extent it seems to have this issue.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think it was hijacked in the service of the union today. I don’t believe for a minute Jack give a hoot about any of the issues involved.
I agree the public don’t care much about the issue though. They do care about the parliament though.


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Jack wont personally, but if it isn't legal they will have
to get involved. Theres hundreds of laws scot gov has passed that uk gov hasn't touched.

Doubt your average person does care about parliament, most are against parts of this law. I think the majority think all mps/msps are ***** to be honest.

[James310]

I think it was hijacked in the service of the union today. I don’t believe for a minute Jack give a hoot about any of the issues involved.
I agree the public don’t care much about the issue though. They do care about the parliament though.


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You are a bit detached from reality if you think people are waking up caring about the Parliament. I have said on here numerous times people care about their health, their job and for example why aren't their kids at school today.

I am sure you have said similar for a while and everytime it amounts to nothing.

[Rumble de Thump]

You are a bit detached from reality if you think people are waking up caring about the Parliament. I have said on here numerous times people care about their health, their job and for example why aren't their kids at school today.

I am sure you have said similar for a while and everytime it amounts to nothing.

The biggest threat to all the issues you've mentioned, and any others you could mention, is the Conservative Party. Unfortunately, that's the reality everyone in Scotland is having to deal with. They've been an unmitigated disaster for our society and only show signs of getting worse.

[James310]

The biggest threat to all the issues you've mentioned, and any others you could mention, is the Conservative Party. Unfortunately, that's the reality everyone in Scotland is having to deal with. They've been an unmitigated disaster for our society and only show signs of getting worse.

That's a valid opinion that you and many others hold, the problem you have is just being angry at the Tories isn't enough. The alternative offering needs to be clear, I really don't think that is the case in Scotland, it's clear in rUK the alternative is Labour in power. If your way out is Independence then a few leaflets isn't cutting through the way the SNP probably wanted it to.

Anyway this is about the GRA.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://twitter.com/labourrichard/status/1615042632501043200?s=46&t=No9N3mcB2ckL0F60SnLGrA

First comment from Labour I’ve seen?


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Not sure that Richard Leonard is the most reliable authority on devolution tbh :greengrin

But Monica Lennon has just tweeted in similar terms.

[James310]

Yikes, a car crash interview from Maggie Chapman of the Greens. That won't help the SG if anyone was listening to that.

https://youtu.be/TDRyJzPUAKg

Also when pressed said we should be exploring allowing 8 year old children to legally change their gender.

I can't help but feel the Greens (a party supposedly set up to protect the environment) have been swept up in this by a group of trans activists and now the SNP are part of it due to their coalition agreement. I mean 8 year olds?

[Stairway 2 7]

Yikes, a car crash interview from Maggie Chapman of the Greens. That won't help the SG if anyone was listening to that.

https://youtu.be/TDRyJzPUAKg

Also when pressed said we should be exploring allowing 8 year old children to legally change their gender.

I can't help but feel the Greens (a party supposedly set up to protect the environment) have been swept up in this by a group of trans activists and now the SNP are part of it due to their coalition agreement. I mean 8 year olds?

I've mentioned her before, an utter lunatic

[James310]

I've mentioned her before, an utter lunatic

She didn't understand half the questions she was being asked, and she is a legislator in Scotland. Yes other parties have just as bad but it was painful. We all deserve better.

[WeeRussell]

I suspect like every other issue that has come before this one it also won't make any difference to Independence.

😂 Ah James. Still so confident about independence not having a hope in hell of happening that you spend all day every day trying to convince yourself on here I see.

And you’re accusing others of being out of touch with reality.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

😂 Ah James. Still so confident about independence not having a hope in hell of happening that you spend all day every day trying to convince yourself on here I see.

And you’re accusing others of being out of touch with reality.

The sad thing is, the only reason they're so confident it won't happen is due to undemocratic measures that effectively silence Scotland. Yet they don't seem to understand why that's a problem.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/peatworrier/status/1615071466579525636?s=46&t=7Iof6TFJY7Pk0bocvinkIA

Interesting thread on why a s35 order was used.


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[WeeRussell]

The sad thing is, the only reason they're so confident it won't happen is due to undemocratic measures that effectively silence Scotland. Yet they don't seem to understand why that's a problem.

Don’t or won’t..

I agree with you completely - however, probably best we don’t take this thread off tangent any further and take these points to the independence thread to save being told to do so 👍

[He's here!]

Yikes, a car crash interview from Maggie Chapman of the Greens. That won't help the SG if anyone was listening to that.

https://youtu.be/TDRyJzPUAKg

Also when pressed said we should be exploring allowing 8 year old children to legally change their gender.

I can't help but feel the Greens (a party supposedly set up to protect the environment) have been swept up in this by a group of trans activists and now the SNP are part of it due to their coalition agreement. I mean 8 year olds?

That's a toe-curling listen. Scary in fact. Aside from the alarming stuff about eight-year-olds, her attempt to back up her assertion that sex is not binary amounted to incoherent nonsense when asked the straightforward question: "Can you point to an example of a human being changing their biological sex?"

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/peston/status/1615094198591696897?s=46&t=7Iof6TFJY7Pk0bocvinkIA

Nothing from Starmer yet? He was all about devolving power away from Westminster last week?


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[He's here!]

She didn't understand half the questions she was being asked, and she is a legislator in Scotland. Yes other parties have just as bad but it was painful. We all deserve better.

That's probably the most alarming aspect. Perhaps no surprise this legislation was so botched if she was at the forefront of it.

[Ozyhibby]

That's probably the most alarming aspect. Perhaps no surprise this legislation was so botched if she was at the forefront of it.

Was she at the forefront of it?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Don’t or won’t..

I agree with you completely - however, probably best we don’t take this thread off tangent any further and take these points to the independence thread to save being told to do so 👍

Good point. Sometimes I reply to a comment in a thread and it goes off tangent and I forget the thread is about something else entirely. :greengrin

On the subject of this thread, i'm surprised there's still so much confusion surrounding this bill and what it actually means. I still see arguments against the bill which have no relation to the bill itself and actually date back to the Scotland Equality Act of 2010. There appears to be a great deal of concern for laws that these people don't realize have been in place for over 12 years now.

It was infuriating to hear Keir Starmer today accuse the Scottish Government of using the Gender Recognition Reform bill as a "political football", when that's exactly what he is planning to do in tandem with the Conservative Party. Anything to try and gain an upper arm with a fringe minority south of the border. They are playing with people's lives.

[He's here!]

It's not, it's a legal and competency issue. Make some amendments and it's all good.

I fully expect it to be framed as you have done a lot over the next few days and no doubt it's yet another reason for Independence, but I suspect like every other issue that has come before this one it also won't make any difference to Independence.

Perhaps if the SNP and Green MSPs (with the exception of the SNP rebels) had been less tin-eared when sensible amendments were being proposed we might not have reached this situation.

[He's here!]

Jack wont personally, but if it isn't legal they will have
to get involved. Theres hundreds of laws scot gov has passed that uk gov hasn't touched.

Doubt your average person does care about parliament, most are against parts of this law. I think the majority think all mps/msps are ***** to be honest.

Precisely. The fact that this is the first time in the history of the Scottish Parliament that an s35 has been deemed necessary tells the story. This is flawed legislation, pure and simple.

[marinello59]

This is a cold and calculated decision by the Tory Government taken with the main aim of giving the Scottish Government a bloody nose. They are gambling on the legislation itself being unpopular in Scotland and hoping that Sturgeon has picked the wrong hill to die on. It’s just plain nasty. I hope this backfires on them big style.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

This is a cold and calculated decision by the Tory Government taken with the main aim of giving the Scottish Government a bloody nose. They are gambling on the legislation itself being unpopular in Scotland and hoping that Sturgeon has picked the wrong hill to die on. It’s just plain nasty. I hope this backfires on them big style.

Hopefully :agree:

But the press and huge swathes of the media in Scotland are doing their damn hardest to ensure that it doesn't. The media coverage of this bill and the fundamental confusion that it has caused is beyond criminal.

[He's here!]

Not sure that Richard Leonard is the most reliable authority on devolution tbh :greengrin

But Monica Lennon has just tweeted in similar terms.

https://twitter.com/DalgetySusan/status/1615094021289910276?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[Hibby Bairn]

This is a cold and calculated decision by the Tory Government taken with the main aim of giving the Scottish Government a bloody nose. They are gambling on the legislation itself being unpopular in Scotland and hoping that Sturgeon has picked the wrong hill to die on. It’s just plain nasty. I hope this backfires on them big style.

No gambling required. Most folk in Scotland do not support this. Toon cooncil MSPs spending too much time on an issue that the vast majority don't care about at the expense of things that really do affect their daily lives.

It wasn't always like this in the Scottish Parliament. The level of talent and quality of thinking has nosedive in the past 10 years.

Green MSPs elected to look after environmental matters now increasingly all about non-"green" issues.

The whole place needs a full reset.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://twitter.com/DalgetySusan/status/1615094021289910276?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Not sure why you've quoted me.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/peston/status/1615094198591696897?s=46&t=7Iof6TFJY7Pk0bocvinkIA

Nothing from Starmer yet? He was all about devolving power away from Westminster last week?


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I saw Glenn Campbell on BBC Scotland earlier saying the UK Labour Party won't challenge the government intervention. Not a surprise given Starmer tacit backing for it over the last couple of days. Labour are in a mess over this.

[He's here!]

Not sure why you've quoted me.

Her tweet relates to the misguided guff Leonard was coming out with.

[CropleyWasGod]

Her tweet relates to the misguided guff Leonard was coming out with.

That statement could have been cut and pasted from anything over the past 10 years 😀

[TrumpIsAPeado]

No gambling required. Most folk in Scotland do not support this.

Don't support it? Or fundamentally fail to understand what the bill is even about?

Every day I see people squabbling in their echo chambers over social media, whinging about "law changes", that unbeknown to themselves, have been in place in Scotland for over 12 years.

It ultimately shouldn't matter if a majority of people "don't care about it". A majority of people in Scotland are not transgender. But the rights of transgender people will be recognized, as should be the case for all groups of society, large and small.

[He's here!]

This is a cold and calculated decision by the Tory Government taken with the main aim of giving the Scottish Government a bloody nose. They are gambling on the legislation itself being unpopular in Scotland and hoping that Sturgeon has picked the wrong hill to die on. It’s just plain nasty. I hope this backfires on them big style.

As I said earlier, I doubt this was Sunak's preferred option, but I find it hard to see how they could have taken any other course of action here. The Scotland Act makes provisions for Westminster to intervene when laws passed by a devolved legislature affect those which operate UK-wide. Such safeguards are surely key to the devolution framework? Until now, those safeguards have not been required, but I think it's hard to deny the case for using them is strong here.

That's the crux of this matter, not all the hot air about democracy denial and undermining of trans rights which will now be spouted for many weeks/months to come.

[Moulin Yarns]

Was she at the forefront of it?


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Not even a legislator, back bench position.

[He's here!]

Don't support it? Or fundamentally fail to understand what the bill is even about?

Every day I see people squabbling in their echo chambers over social media, whinging about "law changes", that unbeknown to themselves, have been in place in Scotland for over 12 years.

It ultimately shouldn't matter if a majority of people "don't care about it". A majority of people in Scotland are not transgender. But the rights of transgender people will be recognized, as should be the case for all groups of society, large and small.

I think there are more, better-informed folk in Scotland (in particular women) who understand very well what this legislation is about...and few, if any, are up in arms about recognising trans rights. The likes of J K Rowling have been strong, articulate and consistent voices when it comes to articulating what the real concerns around this bill are for many, and while these concerns are not necessarily at the heart of the UK government's decision today, they are heartfelt.

I've posted this before, but I thought this was one of the better (and, it turns out, prescient) articles which summed up such concerns...as well as the equally important fears around children's rights:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/27/nicola-sturgeon-will-endanger-women-if-she-opens-single-sex-spaces-almost-everone

[James310]

Not even a legislator, back bench position.

Eh? All MSPs are legislators and she was on the GRA Committee as deputy convener, so most definitely a key player.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I think there are more, better-informed folk in Scotland (in particular women) who understand very well what this legislation is about...and few, if any, are up in arms about recognising trans rights. The likes of J K Rowling have been strong, articulate and consistent voices when it comes to articulating what the real concerns around this bill are for many, and while these concerns are not necessarily at the heart of the UK government's decision today, they are heartfelt.

I've posted this before, but I thought this was one of the better (and, it turns out, prescient) articles which summed up such concerns...as well as the equally important fears around children's rights:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/27/nicola-sturgeon-will-endanger-women-if-she-opens-single-sex-spaces-almost-everone

Once again, all of these unfounded fears of women being in some kind of imminent danger are based on laws that have been in force in Scotland since 2010 under the Equality Act. Where are all the horror stories of predator males in drag committing assaults on women in female safe spaces over the past 12 years? :confused:

It's a strawman argument, as it has nothing in retaliation to the Gender Recognition Bill which changes nothing in regards to the use of female safe spaces by transgender people, which again is covered by the 2010 Equality Act.

[Bristolhibby]

From Stonewall.

The UK Government should be focused on developing and implementing a strategy that improves the lives of all LGBTQ+ people, including trans people, not causing them more harm.

Despite being a small population, trans people live in every community in the UK. They are our classmates, our colleagues, our friends and our family. Yet today's decision by the Prime Minister's treats trans people as a threat to be contained, not citizens to be respected.

Twenty years on from the repeal of Section 28, the Prime Minister will re-toxify his party's brand by repeating historic mistakes for LGBTO+ people. This is out of step with the inclusive values of modern Britain.

The Gender Recognition Reform Bill was passed by a decisive majority of MSPs, after having received more extensive scrutiny than any other legislation in the Scottish Parliament's history.

It does not interact with Equality Act - clarified by successful amendments from a Scottish Labour MSP; and it contains more safeguards than the UK Gender Recognition Act - thanks to successful amendments by a Scottish Conservative MSP.
The concerns cited by the Prime Minister have been addressed by Scottish politicians from across the parties.

This is the nuclear option. It is the only time that Section 35 of the Scotland Act has been used since 1998, in an unprecedented move which significantly undermines the devolution settlement and will unlock constitutional and diplomatic strife.

[Green Man]

Green MSPs elected to look after environmental matters now increasingly all about non-"green" issues.



The SGP manifesto in 2021 specifically mentions delivering GRA reform, among a plethora of non-“green” issues.

[WeeRussell]

No gambling required. Most folk in Scotland do not support this. Toon cooncil MSPs spending too much time on an issue that the vast majority don't care about at the expense of things that really do affect their daily lives.

It wasn't always like this in the Scottish Parliament. The level of talent and quality of thinking has nosedive in the past 10 years.

Green MSPs elected to look after environmental matters now increasingly all about non-"green" issues.

The whole place needs a full reset.

I think you talking about the majority of people not caring about the rights of a group of human beings, and what you describe as lacking in quality of thinking being, to others, progressive and compassionate politics is a good example of some people being at very different ends of the political scale.

I can understand some of the concerns coming from the opposing side here, but trying to dismiss the whole thing as something not important enough and getting in the way of what matters comes across as a very backward and unfortunate view.

I wonder where we’d be now if some of the minority groups who have achieved great historic accomplishments throughout the world had their fights dismissed by that attitude?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It depends which ones. The 6ft trans women who physically assault women, or send sexual threats on twitter to the likes of JK Rowling? They're probably as bad as your common or garden GUM clinic picket tosser.

But good try at trying to dismiss nuance so you can build a false dichotomy.

What about the 6ft trans women who don't physically assault anybody or send sexual threats to bigots online? You know, the vast majority of them?

Are the 6ft trans women who do commit these crimes any worse than the 6ft non-trans men who are just as guilty of the same crimes?

[500miles]

What about the 6ft trans women who don't physically assault anybody or send sexual threats to bigots online? You know, the vast majority of them?

Are the 6ft trans women who do commit these crimes any worse than the 6ft non-trans men who are just as guilty of the same crimes?

I think they hold a position which is based on belief rather than measurable evidence, and to base legislation on that is fundamentalism. But there are plenty of religious people who would like thier own beliefs enshrined in law, and while I think those are fundamentalist positions, I don't think they are monsters either.

I think the transwomen that commit the same crimes as nontrans men are materially no different from those men. That's why I think transwomen and men need to be subject to the same safeguards. Unless fully transitioned, we present the same potential threat, even though the vast majority of both of us wouldn't dream of committing such horrendous crimes.

Your mask is slipping by the way, calling the recipients of sexual threats "bigots". These women must have been asking for it eh? Victim blaming and misogyny, very cool.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I think they hold a position which is based on belief rather than measurable evidence, and to base legislation on that is fundamentalism. But there are plenty of religious people who would like thier own beliefs enshrined in law, and while I think those are fundamentalist positions, I don't think they are monsters either.

I think the transwomen that commit the same crimes as nontrans men are materially no different from those men. That's why I think transwomen and men need to be subject to the same safeguards. Unless fully transitioned, we present the same potential threat, even though the vast majority of both of us wouldn't dream of committing such horrendous crimes.

Your mask is slipping by the way, calling the recipients of sexual threats "bigots". These women must have been asking for it eh? Victim blaming and misogyny, very cool.

Care to point out which aspects of the Gender Reform Bill have you so concerned about the safety of women in female spaces. Keeping in mind that transgender women have been entering female spaces legally in Scotland since 2010 under the Equality Act and that this bill has absolutely no effect on the Equality Act?

Perhaps you'd also like to explain why you think a man capable of committing the crime of sexual assault against a woman would even bother to go the hassle of pretending to identify as a female to gain access to female spaces, when they can simply break the law and enter these spaces as men regardless? After all, they're about to commit a crime anyway, so why would they be concerned about entering female spaces as men?

I'm not sure what you think is hiding behind my apparent mask. I've been pretty consistent about where I stand on this whole situation. Once you apply logical reasoning, the argument of women being in peril due to this bill rapidly falls apart and it's the mask of those making the strawman argument that ultimately slips.

[147lothian]

Care to point out which aspects of the Gender Reform Bill have you so concerned about the safety of women in female spaces. Keeping in mind that transgender women have been entering female spaces legally in Scotland since 2010 under the Equality Act and that this bill has absolutely no effect on the Equality Act?

Perhaps you'd also like to explain why you think a man capable of committing the crime of sexual assault against a woman would even bother to go the hassle of pretending to identify as a female to gain access to female spaces, when they can simply break the law and enter these spaces as men regardless? After all, they're about to commit a crime anyway, so why would they be concerned about entering female spaces as men?

I'm not sure what you think is hiding behind my apparent mask. I've been pretty consistent about where I stand on this whole situation. Once you apply logical reasoning, the argument of women being in peril due to this bill rapidly falls apart and it's the mask of those making the strawman argument that ultimately slips.

Someone tried to put an amendment on the Gender Reform Bill to say that sex offenders or rapists shouldn't be able to Self-ID into woman's prisons and Nicola Sturgeon said that these were ill-founded concerns and pushed the Bill through so this aspect of the Bill is a concern for the safety of women in women only spaces.

Katie Dolatowski, identified as a woman to gain access to woman only spaces. This is the male pedophile who identifies as a woman who was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall in the female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store. Same person also grabbed a 10 year old year old girl by the face in a Morrisons in Kircaldy forced her into the female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds for 71 days and also a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institute for male offenders but after physically assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the woman only Cornton Vale Prison.

Under the Gender Reform Bill as it stood there would have been nothing to stop someone like Katie Dolatowski getting in a car and driving to England or Wales legally identifying as a woman and accessing woman only spaces. This is why the Bill as it stood impacted on the UK Equalities Act. It also seems to be the reason Sturgeon was so keen on pushing bad legislation through to force the UK government to stop it, thus using trans people as a political football to challenge the powers of the assembly.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison-service-criticised-for-moving-trans-woman-katie-dolatowski-to cornton-vale-prison

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't support it? Or fundamentally fail to understand what the bill is even about?

Every day I see people squabbling in their echo chambers over social media, whinging about "law changes", that unbeknown to themselves, have been in place in Scotland for over 12 years.

It ultimately shouldn't matter if a majority of people "don't care about it". A majority of people in Scotland are not transgender. But the rights of transgender people will be recognized, as should be the case for all groups of society, large and small.

:agree: Judge a society on how it treats the weakest in that society.

[Stairway 2 7]

This new thing of saying people who don't like aspects of the bill are anti trans is pathetic. Its more nuanced than that. You can support trans rights and freedoms but still think for instance the age should be 18 before forever changing your body. That's not bigoted it's an opinion

You can say biological females should have there choice of going to rape crisis centres, some say that's bigoted the majority say its not.

It's not one side is pro trans one anti. The pro gra group like to say that to make themselves look and feel good but we all know it's nonsense.

[WeeRussell]

This new thing of saying people who don't like aspects of the bill are anti trans is pathetic. Its more nuanced than that. You can support trans rights and freedoms but still think for instance the age should be 18 before forever changing your body. That's not bigoted it's an opinion

You can say biological females should have there choice of going to rape crisis centres, some say that's bigoted the majority say its not.

It's not one side is pro trans one anti. The pro gra group like to say that to make themselves look and feel good but we all know it's nonsense.

Who is saying this new thing, out of interest? (I’m not totally up-to-date on this)

[Stairway 2 7]

Who is saying this new thing, out of interest? (I’m not totally up-to-date on this)

People on this thread and political shows twitter ect. They are framing it as pro gra is pro trans and anti or amending gra is anti trans. They think it helps them win the argument but it's very basic thinking

[Bristolhibby]

Someone tried to put an amendment on the Gender Reform Bill to say that sex offenders or rapists shouldn't be able to Self-ID into woman's prisons and Nicola Sturgeon said that these were ill-founded concerns and pushed the Bill through so this aspect of the Bill is a concern for the safety of women in women only spaces.

Katie Dolatowski, identified as a woman to gain access to woman only spaces. This is the male pedophile who identifies as a woman who was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall in the female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store. Same person also grabbed a 10 year old year old girl by the face in a Morrisons in Kircaldy forced her into the female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds for 71 days and also a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institute for male offenders but after physically assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the woman only Cornton Vale Prison.

Under the Gender Reform Bill as it stood there would have been nothing to stop someone like Katie Dolatowski getting in a car and driving to England or Wales legally identifying as a woman and accessing woman only spaces. This is why the Bill as it stood impacted on the UK Equalities Act. It also seems to be the reason Sturgeon was so keen on pushing bad legislation through to force the UK government to stop it, thus using trans people as a political football to challenge the powers of the assembly.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison-service-criticised-for-moving-trans-woman-katie-dolatowski-to cornton-vale-prison

That criminal would still be a criminal with or without the GRB.

This Bill makes no difference to their crimes. The fact that they were committed before the Bill was passed should be the clue.

J

[Ozyhibby]

This new thing of saying people who don't like aspects of the bill are anti trans is pathetic. Its more nuanced than that. You can support trans rights and freedoms but still think for instance the age should be 18 before forever changing your body. That's not bigoted it's an opinion

You can say biological females should have there choice of going to rape crisis centres, some say that's bigoted the majority say its not.

It's not one side is pro trans one anti. The pro gra group like to say that to make themselves look and feel good but we all know it's nonsense.

There will be no forever changing of anyone’s body before 18. Have you seen NHS waiting times?


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[James310]

There will be no forever changing of anyone’s body before 18. Have you seen NHS waiting times?


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They could go private if they had the means, they could also be prescribed drugs that block hormones etc all just when 16.

Imagine if Shiloh Pitt was growing up in Scotland. She was adamant she wanted to be a boy when younger, but she grew up and doesn't want to be anymore.

https://www.lifeandstylemag.com/posts/shiloh-jolie-pitt-now-143408/

[Stairway 2 7]

Chapman said she wants hormone blockers to be available to 8 year olds and the greens pay her still and we pay her large msp salary. Hopefully snp get a majority so can kick these nut jobs out.

Chapman also said you can't know what sex you are unless you get a chromosome test. Wonder if the wife is a lad, the two bairns makes me think not though

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/DalgetySusan/status/1615094021289910276?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

This response on her twitter feed clearly indicates what's at play here.

That's why we have sec 33 in the Scotland act. If the UK gov believes that a bill passed in Holyrood interferes with a reserved matter then royal assent is paused until the Supreme Court clarifies. That's not what the UK did, it enacted a sec 35 and unilaterally vetoed the Bill.

[Moulin Yarns]

Section 35 states

Power to intervene in certain cases.

If a Bill contains provisions—
(a)which the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds to believe would be incompatible with any international obligations or the interests of defence or national security, or
(b)which make modifications of the law as it applies to reserved matters and which the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds to believe would have an adverse effect on the operation of the law as it applies to reserved matters,he may make an order prohibiting the Presiding Officer from submitting the Bill for Royal Assent.
(2)The order must identify the Bill and the provisions in question and state the reasons for making the order.



On what grounds is Jack intervening?

[CropleyWasGod]

Someone tried to put an amendment on the Gender Reform Bill to say that sex offenders or rapists shouldn't be able to Self-ID into woman's prisons and Nicola Sturgeon said that these were ill-founded concerns and pushed the Bill through so this aspect of the Bill is a concern for the safety of women in women only spaces.



That's not what happened.

There was an initial amendment which restricted the ability of sex-offenders to obtain GRCs. That was rejected by the Parliament.

A further, more appropriate and acceptable, amendment was subsequently passed.

[James310]

The warnings were there. Why were they ignored?

Reposting my interview from Feb 2022 with chair of UK's statutory regulator on equalities legislation @EHRC @EHRCChair who wrote to SG a number of times calling for a pause on GRR bill pointing out the potential conflict with the Equalities Act...

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1615060566317404177?t=JKQLRzUBre7DcrNtkdVdfg&s=19

We have been here before, similar warnings about the UN Children's Rights Bill, but they ignored the advice and carried on anyway. Nicola Sturgeon used similar language at the time and said she can't fully protect children, but 18 months later the Bill has just been left on the shelf by the Scottish Government.

The GRA will go to court, likely be found to have exceeded it's powers and will need amendments, let's hope it doesn't just get forgotten about like the UN Children's Rights Bill.

[147lothian]

Maggie Chapman thinks its ok for 8 year old's to change sex, if vulnerable kids, some of whom will be gay some autistic and some victims of abuse were left alone to navigate adolescence, they would grow into well adjusted adults, I just hope vulnerable kids list to the growing number of De-Transitioners rather that people like Maggie Chapman. She really should leave the kids alone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doaHPFWEa7E

[archie]

Why is it being framed as a 'full frontal assault on the powers of the Scottish Parliament'? There's a process set out in the Scotland Act to allow the courts to determine whether or not it is beyond the powers set out in the Scotland Act. It either will or won’t be. I'm assuming that the vocal supporters of the legislation will be confident that the legislation has been properly and competently drafted. If so, what's the issue?

[Ozyhibby]

Anyone heard from Sarwar or Starmer?


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[ronaldo7]

Section 35 states

Power to intervene in certain cases.

If a Bill contains provisions—
(a)which the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds to believe would be incompatible with any international obligations or the interests of defence or national security, or
(b)which make modifications of the law as it applies to reserved matters and which the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds to believe would have an adverse effect on the operation of the law as it applies to reserved matters,he may make an order prohibiting the Presiding Officer from submitting the Bill for Royal Assent.
(2)The order must identify the Bill and the provisions in question and state the reasons for making the order.



On what grounds is Jack intervening?

We'll find out later on.

It's ironic that when the Scotland act was being debated, we didn't have a section 35, it was all wrapped up in clause 33, but the Tories were worried about the draconian nature of the power, and the potential to provoke political conflict.

Here we are today.

Section 35 was referred to as the "Governor general clause" as they knew it was the nuclear option. This was by the Tory Michael Ancrum.

[ronaldo7]

Anyone heard from Sarwar or Starmer?


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Ian Murray has spoken for them. I think he wants beer and a curry.

[ronaldo7]

Why is it being framed as a 'full frontal assault on the powers of the Scottish Parliament'? There's a process set out in the Scotland Act to allow the courts to determine whether or not it is beyond the powers set out in the Scotland Act. It either will or won’t be. I'm assuming that the vocal supporters of the legislation will be confident that the legislation has been properly and competently drafted. If so, what's the issue?

AIUI
Section 33 does.

Section 35 stops it in its tracks, and it's then on the SG to decide what to do.

[marinello59]

I’m not going to pretend that I fully understand all the issues around this. , I still find some of it slightly confusing. My gut instinct says this is well intended legislation with politicians from all parties trying to make the world a better place for some of our more marginalised citizens and that can only be a good thing.
I’m probably hoping in vain that both governments can get together before it reaches the courts to try and work out a common sense solution, it really shouldn’t be that hard. It would be good to see focus kept on the groups that this law is trying to help rather than it descending in to the usual petty point scoring. I may be wishing for too much there as well.

[ronaldo7]

Anyone heard from Sarwar or Starmer?


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Edinburgh Central Constituency Labour Party met tonight and voted to call for a strong response from @ScottishLabour against the Tory government's outrageous decision to block the Gender Recognition Reform Bill. Solidarity with trans people everywhere🏳️*⚧️

Scottish Young Labour stands opposed to the tories and their stance on the GRA reform. This was passed democratically by MSPs and trying to stop it is an attack on trans people. We support and stand side by side with the trans community!

Caroline Noakes, Tory MP and Chair of Westminster’s Women and Equalities Committee, tells #5live the GRR legislation in Scotland “doesn’t change the Equalities Act”

[hibby rae]

Ian Murray has spoken for them. I think he wants beer and a curry.

Aye he said trans people shouldn't be used for 'SNP vs Tory attritional warfare'. Which seems like he was wording it in a way to have a dig at both sides, which isn't very helpful here

[JeMeSouviens]

I’m not going to pretend that I fully understand all the issues around this. , I still find some of it slightly confusing. My gut instinct says this is well intended legislation with politicians from all parties trying to make the world a better place for some of our more marginalised citizens and that can only be a good thing.
I’m probably hoping in vain that both governments can get together before it reaches the courts to try and work out a common sense solution, it really shouldn’t be that hard. It would be good to see focus kept on the groups that this law is trying to help rather than it descending in to the usual petty point scoring. I may be wishing for too much there as well.

I think you're being hopelessly naive tbh. The SNP was happy to compromise enough to get Green+Lab+Lib support at Holyrood but will dig in in the face of UK challenge that plays neatly into the "standing up for Scotland" narrative. The Tories are using this as a double whammy of a straightforward "war on woke" wedge issue combined with a "muscular unionist" attempt to diminish Holyrood. They have neatly stitched up Labour who are so paranoid about being seen to be "woke" that they are not standing up for their own devolution project.

[heretoday]

Sturgeon set this whole thing up knowing Westminster would scupper it and add fuel to the indy fire.
Trouble is I doubt the majority of Scots agree with the bill - certainty not women anyway - so she's on thin ice.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/17/sixteen-is-old-enough-to-decide-on-gender-says-education-secretary?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1673953323


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[JeMeSouviens]

Sturgeon set this whole thing up knowing Westminster would scupper it and add fuel to the indy fire.
Trouble is I doubt the majority of Scots agree with the bill - certainty not women anyway - so she's on thin ice.

I really don't think the first part is true. When gender recognition reform was first mooted it was more or less political orthodoxy. Since then we've seen a reaction to it that has caused internal difficulties for all parties, but particularly the SNP which is a broader coalition than the others. We've also seen elements of the right sieze upon it as a wedge issue. In the last few years it's gone from relatively uncontroversial cuddly-right-thing-to-do to political hot potato.

Which is not to say that the SNP won't try and milk the overrule from Westminster angle to the max. They absolutely will. In part to distract from the controversy of the issue itself.

[ElginHibbie]

Sturgeon set this whole thing up knowing Westminster would scupper it and add fuel to the indy fire.
Trouble is I doubt the majority of Scots agree with the bill - certainty not women anyway - so she's on thin ice.

With the majority of Labour and Lib Dems MSPs (and even some Tories!) also voting for this bill it must mean Sturgeon really is playing some great 3d chess if she is getting anti-Independence parties to back a bill just to further her cause for Interdependence

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Sturgeon set this whole thing up knowing Westminster would scupper it and add fuel to the indy fire.
Trouble is I doubt the majority of Scots agree with the bill - certainty not women anyway - so she's on thin ice.

The majority of Scots haven't even read the bill. As to whether Nicola Sturgeon knew what Westminster would do or not is neither here or there as they simply shouldn't be doing what they are doing. To say that she is on thin ice is laughable when you consider that she is still by far the most positively viewed political figure in Scotland with the SNP achieving some of the highest polling figures since they came to power in 2007.

[weecounty hibby]

Sturgeon set this whole thing up knowing Westminster would scupper it and add fuel to the indy fire.
Trouble is I doubt the majority of Scots agree with the bill - certainty not women anyway - so she's on thin ice.

Ive tried to keep out of thos as much as possible but it's ***** like this that has made the debate toxic. So Nicola Sturgeon managed to persuade 2/3rds of Holyrood including Labout, Tory and Lib Dems to vote for something so she could push an anti union grievance. FFS go back and read what you have written. It's just unbelievable

[Bristolhibby]

Sometimes you’ve got to do the right thing for the smallest and most marginalised in our community. Just because it’s the right thing to do.

Not everything is a popularity contest, and may not be in line with public opinion.

J

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/17/sixteen-is-old-enough-to-decide-on-gender-says-education-secretary?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1673953323


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Not old enough to play the lottery or gamble. The reason is kids are too young vulnerable to make safe choices.

Too young have a bevvy, stand for election, be on a jury, watch an 18 movie, buy fireworks, have a credit card, work in a bar, get a tattoo, drive a car, use a sunbed.

I have they get all the support and help they need at 16, but it's such a life changing medical decision.

[The Harp Awakes]

Aye he said trans people shouldn't be used for 'SNP vs Tory attritional warfare'. Which seems like he was wording it in a way to have a dig at both sides, which isn't very helpful here

I'm mostly ambivalent about anything Labour politicians do or say these days, mainly because I see them as an irrelevance in Scotland. However nothing would delight me more than that clown Ian Murray losing his seat at the next GE.

[Ozyhibby]

Sometimes you’ve got to do the right thing for the smallest and most marginalised in our community. Just because it’s the right thing to do.

Not everything is a popularity contest, and may not be in line with public opinion.

J

https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1615087016160419840?s=46&t=GnTdfpeYLezQPzAT_IhN4A
Section 28 was not a popular change.


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[Glory Lurker]

I’m not going to pretend that I fully understand all the issues around this. , I still find some of it slightly confusing. My gut instinct says this is well intended legislation with politicians from all parties trying to make the world a better place for some of our more marginalised citizens and that can only be a good thing.
I’m probably hoping in vain that both governments can get together before it reaches the courts to try and work out a common sense solution, it really shouldn’t be that hard. It would be good to see focus kept on the groups that this law is trying to help rather than it descending in to the usual petty point scoring. I may be wishing for too much there as well.

You and I both on all you say here.

[JeMeSouviens]

Former SNP councillor Mhairi Hunter who is supposed to be close to NS:



Mhairi Hunter 🇺🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿@MhairiHunter

I'm going to be quite brutal here but any political analyst or commentator who tries to tell you that the SNP engineered a confrontation with UK Gov over GRA reform is an idiot. They don't understand the situation at all. It is UK Gov that has engineered this conflict.



Mhairi Hunter 🇺🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 @MhairiHunter

If you were going to set up a constitutional conflict would you do it over a toxic & polarising culture war shibboleth where the vast majority of the media is against you if not actively promoting said culture war? Only if you were absolutely ******g stupid.


Mhairi Hunter 🇺🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 @MhairiHunter

This might be really hard for some folk to understand but Scotgov brought forward the legislation & most MSPs voted for it because they thought it was the right thing to do. That's it. You're fully entitled to disagree with them of course but that is what happened.

[Glory Lurker]

Not old enough to play the lottery or gamble. The reason is kids are too young vulnerable to make safe choices.

Too young have a bevvy, stand for election, be on a jury, watch an 18 movie, buy fireworks, have a credit card, work in a bar, get a tattoo, drive a car, use a sunbed.

I have they get all the support and help they need at 16, but it's such a life changing medical decision.

It's the age of legal majority in Scotland.

[Santa Cruz]

Not old enough to play the lottery or gamble. The reason is kids are too young vulnerable to make safe choices.

Too young have a bevvy, stand for election, be on a jury, watch an 18 movie, buy fireworks, have a credit card, work in a bar, get a tattoo, drive a car, use a sunbed.

I have they get all the support and help they need at 16, but it's such a life changing medical decision.

How can you be eligble to vote but not stand for election? Doesn't sound right. Mind you, you can get married at 16 but next to no chance of booking a hotel for your honeymoon in Scotland until your 18. Apologies for taking the topic of thread.

[Bristolhibby]

Not old enough to play the lottery or gamble. The reason is kids are too young vulnerable to make safe choices.

Too young have a bevvy, stand for election, be on a jury, watch an 18 movie, buy fireworks, have a credit card, work in a bar, get a tattoo, drive a car, use a sunbed.

I have they get all the support and help they need at 16, but it's such a life changing medical decision.

As far as I’m aware you are legally an adult in Scotland at 16. They can vote in Scottish Parliamentary Elections and Scottish Council elections.

Stands to reason they would know their own body, having lived in it for over 16 years.

J

[Bristolhibby]

How can you be eligble to vote but not stand for election? Doesn't sound right. Mind you, you can get married at 16 but next to no chance of booking a hotel for your honeymoon in Scotland until your 18. Apologies for taking the topic of thread.

Lots of things you can do at 18 and not at 16.

I like what New Zealand are doing with cigarettes. Slowly raising the age of buying cigarettes, so eventually they will be illegal.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/13/new-zealand-passes-world-first-tobacco-law-to-ban-smoking-by-2025

[Moulin Yarns]

Remember that Sandesh Gulhane, Scottish conservative health spokesperson voted for the legislation. A doctor agrees with the legislation but his bosses in London are disagreeing with his expertise on health!

[Stairway 2 7]

As far as I’m aware you are legally an adult in Scotland at 16. They can vote in Scottish Parliamentary Elections and Scottish Council elections.

Stands to reason they would know their own body, having lived in it for over 16 years.

J

But government think they are too young to gamble because they aren't mature enough, or sensibly use a sunbed. No bother

Not old enough to sensibly be on a jury, adult

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Remember that Sandesh Gulhane, Scottish conservative health spokesperson voted for the legislation. A doctor agrees with the legislation but his bosses in London are disagreeing with his expertise on health!

"I think the people of this country have had enough of experts" - Graeme Logan (AKA Michael Gove)

[Stairway 2 7]

"I think the people of this country have had enough of experts" - Graeme Logan (AKA Michael Gove)

You can put 50 bona fide experts that will disagree on both sides of most debates. Pick an expert, quote him her, prove your point.

Look at the two from the un that were opposite sides on this debate

[James310]

As far as I’m aware you are legally an adult in Scotland at 16. They can vote in Scottish Parliamentary Elections and Scottish Council elections.

Stands to reason they would know their own body, having lived in it for over 16 years.

J

The law is all over the place here, also in Scotland you were supposed to have a Named Person until you were 18 as you were not mature enough to basically look after yourself. Also in Scotland we made a decision to urge court's not to send under 25s to prison as their brains were not mature enough.

It seems all over the place and probably the same across the UK.

[Santa Cruz]

Lots of things you can do at 18 and not at 16.

I like what New Zealand are doing with cigarettes. Slowly raising the age of buying cigarettes, so eventually they will be illegal.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/13/new-zealand-passes-world-first-tobacco-law-to-ban-smoking-by-2025

Agree, that's excellent what N. Zealand are doing.

[Ozyhibby]

Agree, that's excellent what N. Zealand are doing.

I agree they should aim to reduce smoking but prohibition is a terrible idea. Never worked for alcohol. Doesn’t work for drugs. Complete gift to organised crime.


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[Santa Cruz]

I agree they should aim to reduce smoking but prohibition is a terrible idea. Never worked for alcohol. Doesn’t work for drugs. Complete gift to organised crime.


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It's a gradual reduction approach so worth trying imo.

[James310]

The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and a Kings Council lawyer explains why this is not an "attack on democracy". A S35 is part of the devolution settlement, how can it be anti democratic when it's democracy in action as it's part of the Scotland Act. If a S35 is being used inappropriately then the courts will intervene.

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1615251101066104832?t=LTyh4ZcNRa2VG7kE79IL9g&s=19

Oh, and the SNP voted for the current devolution settlement.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/MalcolmChishol1/status/1615258579715465218

Malcolm chisholm argues section 35 was integral to Donald dewars vision.

Equality isn't devolved. They say it doesn't effect it. Scottish government said in court the bill impacts the Equality Act ‘for all purposes'.

It's basically a legal case now, we'll see who is correct. The former Advocate General for Scotland and a constitutional law expert believes section 35 is correct

https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/the-scottish-gender-recognition-reform-bill/

[Ozyhibby]

Tories seem to be debating the merits of the bill already passed in the Scottish parliament in the UK parliament? I thought this was a legal objection?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1615355356988977154?s=46&t=GnTdfpeYLezQPzAT_IhN4A

Well done Joanna Cherry


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[James310]

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1615355356988977154?s=46&t=GnTdfpeYLezQPzAT_IhN4A

We’ll done Joanna Cherry


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So you agree it needs fixed? Why did they vote on a broken Bill then?

[Ozyhibby]

So you agree it needs fixed? Why did they vote on a broken Bill then?

No, I just agree that it is a matter for the Scottish parliament.


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[ronaldo7]

Alistair Jack failing to give the reasons for his section 35, and disrespecting the UK parliament. He'll publish a statement of reasons later today.

[James310]

No, I just agree that it is a matter for the Scottish parliament.


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It's surely already within the gift of the Scottish Parliament to fix it, make some amendments and everyone is happy.

[Ozyhibby]

It's surely already within the gift of the Scottish Parliament to fix it, make some amendments and everyone is happy.

It doesn’t need fixed.


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[He's here!]

Sometimes you’ve got to do the right thing for the smallest and most marginalised in our community. Just because it’s the right thing to do.

Not everything is a popularity contest, and may not be in line with public opinion.

J

I'm not aware of anyone arguing against doing the right thing for trans rights, but when the means of trying to so clearly impact adversely on women's rights (and open up potentially dangerous avenues for children) that can't be the right thing to do.

While those flaws within the legislation have generated plenty of heat, they're not what's at the heart of the government's decision to block it. It's a simple legal issue, whereby the bill clearly impacts on the Equality Act. A 'constitutional outrage' it is not. The SG have simply been badly advised if they felt this legislation would go unchallenged.

[He's here!]

It doesn’t need fixed.


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You applaud Cherry (someone you usually scorn) when she says the bill needs fixed in Scotland but then claim it doesn't need fixed. How does that work?

[Berwickhibby]

It doesn’t need fixed.


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Really, perhaps you will be able to say that to any victims assaulted by a predator. There has to be some sort of checks and balances written in to the Act, which most agree is a good idea for the Trans community, just poorly executed.

[James310]

It doesn’t need fixed.


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So why did you applaud Joanne Cherry?

[ronaldo7]

The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and a Kings Council lawyer explains why this is not an "attack on democracy". A S35 is part of the devolution settlement, how can it be anti democratic when it's democracy in action as it's part of the Scotland Act. If a S35 is being used inappropriately then the courts will intervene.

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1615251101066104832?t=LTyh4ZcNRa2VG7kE79IL9g&s=19

Oh, and the SNP voted for the current devolution settlement.

Is he still here. I thought he was moving to England because he was getting taxed too much.

The MOU in 2012 on the Scotland act signed by all parties agreed that a section 35 is a last resort and shouldn't be used.

I suppose it's like the Sewell convention which is disregarded when the UK parliament want to.

[JeMeSouviens]

You applaud Cherry (someone you usually scorn) when she says the bill needs fixed in Scotland but then claim it doesn't need fixed. How does that work?

Because she disagrees with the content of the bill but respects the right of Holyrood to pass it.

[weecounty hibby]

Really, perhaps you will be able to say that to any victims assaulted by a predator. There has to be some sort of checks and balances written in to the Act, which most agree is a good idea for the Trans community, just poorly executed.
See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

[ronaldo7]

Don't support it? Or fundamentally fail to understand what the bill is even about?

Every day I see people squabbling in their echo chambers over social media, whinging about "law changes", that unbeknown to themselves, have been in place in Scotland for over 12 years.

It ultimately shouldn't matter if a majority of people "don't care about it". A majority of people in Scotland are not transgender. But the rights of transgender people will be recognized, as should be the case for all groups of society, large and small.

Good post.

I noticed however, post didn't get much traction. Probably because 12 years ago they weren't bothered. Two pages on, we've still got people talking about toilets.

[JeMeSouviens]

From the Guardian:


Ben Bradshaw (Lab) says Jack in his statement did not give a clear explanation as to why the Scottish bill undermines the Equality Act. It is not enough for Jack to say he will publish something. Can he explain it now? And what will the government do about foreign nationals who come to the UK from countries that have a form of self-recognition.

On the latter point, Jack says the equalities minister has done a written statement on this.

Jack says the statement of reasons explains how the Scottish bill would impact on two UK laws. He does not want to “bore everyone to death” by going through those reasons now, he says.

Sounds like Alister's razor sharp mind is right on top of his brief as usual. :wink:

[He's here!]

Once again, all of these unfounded fears of women being in some kind of imminent danger are based on laws that have been in force in Scotland since 2010 under the Equality Act. Where are all the horror stories of predator males in drag committing assaults on women in female safe spaces over the past 12 years? :confused:

It's a strawman argument, as it has nothing in retaliation to the Gender Recognition Bill which changes nothing in regards to the use of female safe spaces by transgender people, which again is covered by the 2010 Equality Act.

The 'nothing has changed' mantra brings to mind Theresa May...and I don't see how anyone can claim that a bill which removes all safeguards when it comes to a male being recognised as a woman in law changes nothing. Were this bill to become law a man who says he is a woman literally is one in every sense. The 'living in your acquired gender' stipulation is meaningless as no Scottish government minister has been able to say what this actually means. Couple that with the serious concerns around children being able to change their legal sex and it's pretty clear why there's such strong opposition to a bill with such potentially dangerous implications.

[James310]

Because she disagrees with the content of the bill but respects the right of Holyrood to pass it.

She said it needs fixed in Scotland which suggests it was broken. Holyrood can still pass it with some amendments from what I understand.

[Berwickhibby]

See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Not disagreeing, the beast needs punished and should have been caught and charged years ago. However case of a trans woman here in Fife attacking little girls in supermarket toilets… not one size fits all, but obviously, imho prevention is better than a cure.

[Stairway 2 7]

See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Yep almost all sex attacks are committed by men. That's why I believe biological women should have safe spaces, particularly shelters and rape crisis ect.

[grunt]

She said it needs fixed in Scotland which suggests it was broken. No, it just means that she doesn't agree with all of it.

[He's here!]

I got one 'free' read when I clicked on this, but you may need a New Statesman account to see the full article. Mind you, the headline and sub-heading sum things up pretty accurately:

Rishi Sunak has every right to block Scotland’s gender bill - New Statesman (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2023/01/rishi-sunak-has-every-right-to-block-scotlands-gender-bill)

[Kato]

Not disagreeing, the beast needs punished and should have been caught and charged years ago. However case of a trans woman here in Fife attacking little girls in supermarket toilets… not one size fits all, but obviously, imho prevention is better than a cure.Did the preventions in place stop the latest Met Officer's crimes?

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[Berwickhibby]

Did the preventions in place stop the latest Met Officer's crimes?

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Obviously not 🙄 but lets deflect and ignore an Act that could put predators in women’s safe spaces

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230117/aa7c22a94b27bb3f50bc7a76164761cb.jpg


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[Moulin Yarns]

From the Guardian:



Sounds like Alister's razor sharp mind is right on top of his brief as usual. :wink:

He was almost incoherent, sounding like he took public speaking lessons from Boris Johnson.

As for saying that Philippa Whitford was not telling the truth 🙄

https://twitter.com/Dr_PhilippaW/status/1615364477603680256?t=Qb-XZvKcEuFps9kIUldwLg&s=19

Listen and see what you think.

[Kato]

Obviously not [emoji849] but lets deflect and ignore an Act that could put predators in women’s safe spacesI'm not ignoring anything. No act of any parliament puts predators into women's safe spaces, predators do that - usually regardless of laws.



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[weecounty hibby]

To counter the link to link to Roddy Dunlop folk should look at the tweet from Jo Maugham from the good law project. I don't think he has any particular Independence/unionist axe to grind so pretty interesting stuff. Apologies for not being able to post link as I am a complete Luddite

[ElginHibbie]

To counter the link to link to Roddy Dunlop folk should look at the tweet from Jo Maugham from the good law project. I don't think he has any particular Independence/unionist axe to grind so pretty interesting stuff. Apologies for not being able to post link as I am a complete Luddite

Presuming this
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1615286023600193536?s=20

[James310]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statement-of-reasons-related-to-the-use-of-section-35-of-the-scotland-act-1998/html-version

[Moulin Yarns]

Presuming this
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1615286023600193536?s=20

👏👏👏

[weecounty hibby]

Presuming this
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1615286023600193536?s=20

Thank you, you must be some sort of magician!!

[ElginHibbie]

Thank you, you must be some sort of magician!!

Only had to edit the post 3 times before I got it right :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Scottish secretary Alister Jack issued notice of the order – which effectively allows Westminster to “veto” any Holyrood Bill which may have an “adverse effect” on UK laws or how they are applied – on Monday.

He said the impact of the legislation on the rest of the UK meant the Bill could not be given assent, citing effects on the “operation of single-sex clubs, associations and schools and protections such as equal pay,” though added concerns remained over “fraudulent or bad faith applications”.

Are single sex clubs not against the equality act?

Equal pay?

What is he talking about?

[James310]

Sturgeon telling porkies?

She said in an interview "If there had been these concerns, and I still don't understand the basis of these concerns about the interaction with the Equalities Act (they) would have been raised at a much much earlier stage through some of the formal processes that are in existence"

In September 2022 the EHRC wrote to the Scottish Government to set out "potential cross border implications of reform" including impact on the Equalities Act in the rUK. In the same letter it said;

"The operation of other provisions relating to sex discrimination across Great Britain, including equal pay between women and men, gender pay gap reporting, and measures to address disadvantages experienced by women, will be affected by the proposed changes.."

"In our view, there are implications for the operation of the Equality Act 2010 whether or not the UK Government elects to recognise Scottish GRCs obtained under the reformed system in the other nations of the UK"

Nicola Sturgeon's memory must be letting her down again.

[Ozyhibby]

Is Sarwar on holiday just now? Starmer?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1615286056953450497?s=20&t=nQNRCKUAAyy33CSZRXH8cw


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and a Kings Council lawyer explains why this is not an "attack on democracy". A S35 is part of the devolution settlement, how can it be anti democratic when it's democracy in action as it's part of the Scotland Act. If a S35 is being used inappropriately then the courts will intervene.

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1615251101066104832?t=LTyh4ZcNRa2VG7kE79IL9g&s=19

Oh, and the SNP voted for the current devolution settlement.

If the courts intervene, the Conservative Government will simply overrule the court's intervention. They've bundled through legislation that allows them to do that now.

[He's here!]

To counter the link to link to Roddy Dunlop folk should look at the tweet from Jo Maugham from the good law project. I don't think he has any particular Independence/unionist axe to grind so pretty interesting stuff. Apologies for not being able to post link as I am a complete Luddite

Does Dunlop have an axe to grind?

[Moulin Yarns]

I have to say, the vocal minority has really made an issue that only actually affects 0.5% of the population into something of a big deal when it really comes down to letting a small amount of people be recognised in the way they want to be.

[weecounty hibby]

Does Dunlop have an axe to grind?
You tell me? I never said he did, I only said that Maugham doesn't. Dunlop was someone who demanded that the SG follow Kwartengs lead, I believe you may also have said similar, or he was moving to England so maybe he does. Be interested to hear your take on it.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Really, perhaps you will be able to say that to any victims assaulted by a predator.

I can't believe people are still coming out with this. The Gender Recognition Bill does not give some go ahead for predators to assault people. It's outrageous and an unfortunate result of the modern day disinformation campaign from right wing media outlets to put a stopper on progressive policy implementation.

Please take the time to read the bill. Very similar bills have been in force in other countries for years, without all of the hyperbole.

[Ozyhibby]

Do we know the reasons for the s35 order yet? It’s not clear from what the UK govt has put out?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

The 'nothing has changed' mantra brings to mind Theresa May...and I don't see how anyone can claim that a bill which removes all safeguards when it comes to a male being recognised as a woman in law changes nothing. Were this bill to become law a man who says he is a woman literally is one in every sense. The 'living in your acquired gender' stipulation is meaningless as no Scottish government minister has been able to say what this actually means. Couple that with the serious concerns around children being able to change their legal sex and it's pretty clear why there's such strong opposition to a bill with such potentially dangerous implications.

This bill does not allow a man to simply state that he feels like a woman today, just so he can legally access female spaces in order to commit illegal acts (which would be a pointless course of action anyway). If you had taken the time to actually read the bill, you would have been fully aware of this.

Once again, it's hyperbole that has been stirred up by an anti-progressive Conservative press that is completely baseless and out of touch with the reality of the situation.

[James310]

Do we know the reasons for the s35 order yet? It’s not clear from what the UK govt has put out?


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It's all in here.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statement-of-reasons-related-to-the-use-of-section-35-of-the-scotland-act-1998/html-version

[ronaldo7]

Do we know the reasons for the s35 order yet? It’s not clear from what the UK govt has put out?


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According to the yam fud, it's 13 pages of thin gruel.

[Ozyhibby]

It's all in here.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statement-of-reasons-related-to-the-use-of-section-35-of-the-scotland-act-1998/html-version

There is nothing in that?


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[James310]

This bill does not allow a man to simply state that he feels like a woman today, just so he can legally access female spaces in order to commit illegal acts (which would be a pointless course of action anyway). If you had taken the time to actually read the bill, you would have been fully aware of this.

Once again, it's hyperbole that has been stirred up by an anti-progressive Conservative press that is completely baseless and out of touch with the reality of the situation.

The first line of your post is true though isn't it? A man could decide he feels like a woman one day and 3 months later hey presto they are a woman?

Forget about bad or good intentions about doing it, that's what the Bill allows someone to do?

[James310]

There is nothing in that?


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Why do you think that, what bits do you think are wrong?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It's all in here.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statement-of-reasons-related-to-the-use-of-section-35-of-the-scotland-act-1998/html-version


The amendments made by the Bill to the 2004 Act will make it quicker and easier for Scottish applicants to obtain a full GRC, removing a number of measures which the UK government regards as important safeguards, including:


the removal of the requirement for an applicant to have or have had a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (and, correspondingly, the removal of the requirement for an applicant to provide medical reports with their application)
a reduction in the minimum age for applicants from 18 to 16
a reduction in the period for which an applicant must have lived in their acquired gender before submitting an application, from 2 years to 3 months (or 6 months for applicants aged under 18), alongside the introduction of a mandatory 3 month reflection period
the removal of the requirement for an applicant to provide any evidence that they have lived in their acquired gender when submitting an application
the removal of the requirement for a Panel to be satisfied that the applicant meets the criteria, with applications instead being made to the Registrar General for Scotland

These are the reasons given for the UK Government's opposition to the Gender Reform Bill. Problem is, they've given no evidence based explanations as to why these reasons are even considered a relevant cause of concern. All they've done here is stated the changes that the bill makes, without giving reasons as to why it's a problem.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The first line of your post is true though isn't it? A man could decide he feels like a woman one day and 3 months later hey presto they are a woman?

So what's the problem?

Why would a man who has the intent of committing sexual assault, wait 3 months to have their gender identification changed just so they can legally access a female space in order to commit an illegal act?

It's completely illogical.

[Stairway 2 7]

This bill does not allow a man to simply state that he feels like a woman today, just so he can legally access female spaces in order to commit illegal acts (which would be a pointless course of action anyway). If you had taken the time to actually read the bill, you would have been fully aware of this.

Once again, it's hyperbole that has been stirred up by an anti-progressive Conservative press that is completely baseless and out of touch with the reality of the situation.

It let's him change by living as a woman for 3 months. No checks or definitions on what this means. His birth certificate can be changed and no one can check this if he doesn't want them to.

I don't think this will enable more sex offenders. But women can have the protection from that if they feel they need it, almost all sex offenses are committed by men and the vast majority of trans women don't have and medical procedures

I think bigger than the worry of sexual offences is the right of women to have female only spaces. Women should have the choice to stay in domestic abuse homes or go to rape crisis centres without biological males there. Disabled woman like the woman a few pages back, should have the right of female biological care.

The defenders say gra doesn't change anything but it's a nonsense as argued well here
https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/the-potential-for-gra-reform-to-affect-who-can-access-single-sex-services-briefing-for-msps/

I'd be happy for all right for trans people bar a few caveats, I reckon 90% are the same. Hopefully going forward unisex toilets and changing facilities are a standard in new builds. I'd also hope for more money pumped in to support trans people have their own rape crisis ect, so women can have their own. Having a wife and daughters who could be affected by this perhaps sways my thinking

[marinello59]

I think you're being hopelessly naive tbh. The SNP was happy to compromise enough to get Green+Lab+Lib support at Holyrood but will dig in in the face of UK challenge that plays neatly into the "standing up for Scotland" narrative. The Tories are using this as a double whammy of a straightforward "war on woke" wedge issue combined with a "muscular unionist" attempt to diminish Holyrood. They have neatly stitched up Labour who are so paranoid about being seen to be "woke" that they are not standing up for their own devolution project.

I’m not that naive, I don’t really expect it to happen :greengrin

I’m shifting on this after listening to Christine Jardine of all people speak. This isn’t a case of the two Governments being at loggerheads as I suggested, it’s an attack by one Parliament on another. This can only end up in the courts.

[WeeRussell]

Not disagreeing, the beast needs punished and should have been caught and charged years ago. However case of a trans woman here in Fife attacking little girls in supermarket toilets… not one size fits all, but obviously, imho prevention is better than a cure.

Out of interest, is your issue that you don’t think trans people should be allowed to use regular public toilets/changing rooms etc?

[Ozyhibby]

So what's the problem?

Why would a man who has the intent of committing sexual assault, wait 3 months to have their gender identification changed just so they can legally access a female space in order to commit an illegal act?

It's completely illogical.

Maybe he’s worried that the person on the door of the ladies toilets will ask to see his GRC certificate on the way in?


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[weecounty hibby]

So what's the problem?

Why would a man who has the intent of committing sexual assault, wait 3 months to have their gender identification changed just so they can legally access a female space in order to commit an illegal act?

It's completely illogical.

It would be much easier and quicker for men to get a fake warrant card and a police uniform. I can't Labour this point enough, men attack women and will find ways of doing so. Drs, priests, ministers, police etc etc. In fact most attackers don't even bother getting dressed up or going to any bother at all. It's a nonsense argument to suggest that the party of the rape clause amongst others is the protector of women's rights. They have 100% seen a potential to have a go at the Scottish government and have gone for it. They have, in my opinion, seriously misread the situation

[Stairway 2 7]

It would be much easier and quicker for men to get a fake warrant card and a police uniform. I can't Labour this point enough, men attack women and will find ways of doing so. Drs, priests, ministers, police etc etc. In fact most attackers don't even bother getting dressed up or going to any bother at all. It's a nonsense argument to suggest that the party of the rape clause amongst others is the protector of women's rights. They have 100% seen a potential to have a go at the Scottish government and have gone for it. They have, in my opinion, seriously misread the situation

It's not just about the act of rape its the destruction of the choice of women to have female only spaces. Do you think women should be able to have say rape crisis to be biological female only or disabled people have female only care or female only sport. If you answered yes to any some would call you anti trans which is mental but it's where the discussion has gone, black and white, one side or the other.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not just about the act of rape its the destruction of the choice of women to have female only spaces. Do you think women should be able to have say rape crisis to be biological female only or disabled people have female only care or female only sport. If you answered yes to any some would call you anti trans which is mental but it's where the discussion has gone, black and white, one side or the other.

The act doesn’t affect this.


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[Stairway 2 7]

The act doesn’t affect this.


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It does

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/the-potential-for-gra-reform-to-affect-who-can-access-single-sex-services-briefing-for-msps/

[Ozyhibby]

It does

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/the-potential-for-gra-reform-to-affect-who-can-access-single-sex-services-briefing-for-msps/

The act does not change the spaces available to be accessed by people with a GRC.


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[Stairway 2 7]

The act does not change the spaces available to be accessed by people with a GRC.


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It doesn't say that?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230117/ae08f84a9b728046be29bd3f8e6b8206.jpg

Monica Lennon hammering Starmer and Murray on radio Scotland just now.


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[Ozyhibby]

It doesn't say that?

I’m sure it doesn’t list all the things it doesn’t do.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Really, perhaps you will be able to say that to any victims assaulted by a predator. There has to be some sort of checks and balances written in to the Act, which most agree is a good idea for the Trans community, just poorly executed.


We're not America and we don't consider amendments to be unamendable, if the legislation needs changing or another government wants it changed we can change it.

We need to keep some perspective here and remember that there's a proven bigger threat from predator males dressing in police uniforms than predator males dressing as women.

[weecounty hibby]

It's not just about the act of rape its the destruction of the choice of women to have female only spaces. Do you think women should be able to have say rape crisis to be biological female only or disabled people have female only care or female only sport. If you answered yes to any some would call you anti trans which is mental but it's where the discussion has gone, black and white, one side or the other.

It's not black and white tho is it, no matter how much folk who are entrenched in the debate would like it to be. I 100% see both sides of the debate and its why I never engaged on this thread till recently. One post I replied to genuinely stated that Nicola Sturgeon had deliberately manufactured this as a grievance. She is clearly a better politician than anyone gives her credit for to get the 3 unionist parties to vote in favour of that. It is that kind of talk that has made this bill toxic. The loudest voices are the ones so entrenched that they refuse to see the other side, and even worse are the ones who see it only as a way of having a go at the SG.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230117/e6b49a2caeb28c6f9a3747b8c9a28252.jpg


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[He's here!]

You tell me? I never said he did, I only said that Maugham doesn't. Dunlop was someone who demanded that the SG follow Kwartengs lead, I believe you may also have said similar, or he was moving to England so maybe he does. Be interested to hear your take on it.

I don't know any more than you about him. Somebody posted a link to his tweets earlier, I read them and I thought they seemed well reasoned, but I'm not a lawyer. How do you know Maugham doesn't have an agenda?

[Hibrandenburg]

See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Beat me to it.

[ronaldo7]

Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230117/8f84581492e5569ce658d96eab342801.jpg

https://twitter.com/htscotpol/status/1615398108388524049?s=46&t=VnmTONiEb6M4Oxi9T3TeFA

Like I said earlier, there doesn’t seem to be much of a legal argument in what the UK has put out other than ‘we don’t like it’.


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[Stairway 2 7]

It's not black and white tho is it, no matter how much folk who are entrenched in the debate would like it to be. I 100% see both sides of the debate and its why I never engaged on this thread till recently. One post I replied to genuinely stated that Nicola Sturgeon had deliberately manufactured this as a grievance. She is clearly a better politician than anyone gives her credit for to get the 3 unionist parties to vote in favour of that. It is that kind of talk that has made this bill toxic. The loudest voices are the ones so entrenched that they refuse to see the other side, and even worse are the ones who see it only as a way of having a go at the SG.

Exactly it's not black and white there's probably 5% of extremists on both sides and most are in the shades in the middle. I don't think sturgeon engineered it, I believe she the best most honest uk leader by a canter

[Ozyhibby]

Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

I’m sure a judge will take that into account.[emoji23]


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’m sure it doesn’t list all the things it doesn’t do.


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You should read it its balanced and not extreme, but doesn't go to your personal opinion so perhaps useless

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230117/656aa5599b0714bf1a441cbf3b25a83a.jpg
Will he appear? Surely he couldn’t dodge this?


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[Hibrandenburg]

She said it needs fixed in Scotland which suggests it was broken. Holyrood can still pass it with some amendments from what I understand.

Holyrood passed it with a clear majority amongst those elected by the people of Scotland to decide on their behalf. It's called democracy and if opinion changes then democracy can change it. You really can't stand the idea of the people of Scotland deciding matters for themselves, can you?

[weecounty hibby]

I don't know any more than you about him. Somebody posted a link to his tweets earlier, I read them and I thought they seemed well reasoned, but I'm not a lawyer. How do you know Maugham doesn't have an agenda?

Maugham is also a lawyer, well reasoned argument? Or are you sticking with Dunlop? Maughams only agenda I have ever seen from him is fighting injustices and plain wrongdoing from government. Dunlop seems very much all about him, leaving Scotland because of tax, aye very good

[James310]

See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman.

[marinello59]

Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

Speared by Alistair Carmichael. That’s two Lib Dem’s I have name checked positively today, these really are weird times. :greengrin


The whole document looks cobbled together. I’ll leave to the experts here to say whether it’s going to stand up in court or not but it looks weak to me.

[James310]

Maugham is also a lawyer, well reasoned argument? Or are you sticking with Dunlop? Maughams only agenda I have ever seen from him is fighting injustices and plain wrongdoing from government. Dunlop seems very much all about him, leaving Scotland because of tax, aye very good

And clubbing foxes to death on Boxing Day wearing a Japanese kimono.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/26/prominent-lawyer-jolyon-maugham-tweets-about-clubbing-a-fox-to-death

[marinello59]

Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman and children.

Why would identifying as a woman give anybody increased access to children?

[ronaldo7]

Speared by Alistair Carmichael. That’s two Lib Dem’s I have name checked positively today, these really are weird times. :greengrin


The whole document looks cobbled together. I’ll leave to the experts here to say whether it’s going to stand up in court or not but it looks weak to me.

Both of Christine Jardines interventions were very good.

Lock me up now. 😂

[He's here!]

This bill does not allow a man to simply state that he feels like a woman today, just so he can legally access female spaces in order to commit illegal acts (which would be a pointless course of action anyway). If you had taken the time to actually read the bill, you would have been fully aware of this.

Once again, it's hyperbole that has been stirred up by an anti-progressive Conservative press that is completely baseless and out of touch with the reality of the situation.

I have read the bill. More than once. And (to state the obvious) it says nothing about enabling a man to do such a thing. It does however remove any meaningful checks and balances when it comes to a male 'becoming' a woman. Coupled with the associated Court of Session ruling which effectively removes biology from the equation, its impact on what it actually means to be a woman - as well as the potential safety concerns it raises - are obvious. I respect your views on this as they are clearly heartfelt and you appear to be one of the few posters who is basing their arguments on sound knowledge of the bill's contents but I cannot agree it changes nothing.

[marinello59]

Both of Christine Jardines interventions were very good.

Lock me up now. 😂

:greengrin

[James310]

Why would identifying as a woman give anybody increased access to children?

Your right, just woman.

[ronaldo7]

318-71 on the motion in the UK parliament.

Labour have done a runner again.

[Kato]

Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman and children.Is joining the Met police an "extreme length"?

Seems to be natural home for misogynists and pretty easy for them to find work there.

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[Ozyhibby]

318-71 on the motion in the UK parliament.

Labour have done a runner again.

‘Take back control’. Unless your Scottish. [emoji35]
Disgusting after last week boasting about devolving power away from Westminster. Fails the first test.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Seemingly the law can't be passed because the HMRC computer system can't handle the change.

Wind up, surely.

Wtf has it got to do with HMRC?

[ronaldo7]

Wind up, surely.

Wtf has it got to do with HMRC?

Something about men changing to women and pensions.

Para 20 on the "reasons" document I think.

"The most notable example is the administration of tax, benefit and State pensions which are managed by integrated systems across the UK that span reserved and devolved functions, operating for both the UK and Scottish governments. Existing IT infrastructure only allows one legal sex on any record and cannot change the marker for 16 to 17 year olds. Those responsible for these systems consider that it may be unmanageable, even with considerable time and expense,[footnote 4] to build system capability to manage a dual identity for the same individual if someone’s legal sex could be different in Scots law and the law for England and Wales."

[CropleyWasGod]

Something about men changing to women and pensions.

Para 20 on the "reasons" document I think.

The most notable example is the administration of tax, benefit and State pensions which are managed by integrated systems across the UK that span reserved and devolved functions, operating for both the UK and Scottish governments. Existing IT infrastructure only allows one legal sex on any record and cannot change the marker for 16 to 17 year olds. Those responsible for these systems consider that it may be unmanageable, even with considerable time and expense,[footnote 4] to build system capability to manage a dual identity for the same individual if someone’s legal sex could be different in Scots law and the law for England and Wales.

They have been dealing with differences between Scots and English law for eons. They currently deal with different tax laws. They have been dealing with people who change gender for as long as that has been a thing.

HMRC's IT record is not the best, but their "existing infrastructure" is constantly being changed.

It's an excuse, no more.

[ronaldo7]

They have been dealing with differences between Scots and English law for eons. They currently deal with different tax laws. They have been dealing with people who change gender for as long as that has been a thing.

It's an excuse, no more.


The reasons document are full of them.

[Ozyhibby]

They have been dealing with differences between Scots and English law for eons. They currently deal with different tax laws. They have been dealing with people who change gender for as long as that has been a thing.

HMRC's IT record is not the best, but their "existing infrastructure" is constantly being changed.

It's an excuse, no more.

Sometimes excuses are all you’ve got.


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[James310]

Is joining the Met police an "extreme length"?

Seems to be natural home for misogynists and pretty easy for them to find work there.

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Not sure if you are being serious?

It's a harder and longer process than sitting in your bedroom for 3 months doing nothing and declaring yourself you are now a woman.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Doesn't this also prove the point some men will go to extreme lengths to have easy access to vulnerable woman? So if man potentially joins the police so he can carry out attacks as he thinks it will be easier to have access to vulnerable woman what's to stop a similar minded man applying for a GRC by doing nothing for 3 months and self IDing as a woman, especially if he thinks it will allow him acces to vulnerable woman.

Sexual predators don't care if they're allowed to access vulnerable people or not. They simply will. They don't require a GRC to do so. Why would any sexual predator wait 3 months to change their gender identification to gain access to vulnerable people when they can already access vulnerable people as men anyway?

[James310]

Sexual predators don't care if they're allowed to access vulnerable people or not. They simply will. They don't require a GRC to do so. Why would any sexual predator wait 3 months to change their gender identification to gain access to vulnerable people when they can already access vulnerable people as men anyway?

Why do they become policemen, priests, teacher etc?

[WeeRussell]

Why do they become policemen, priests, teacher etc?

To get paid money?

[Kato]

Not sure if you are being serious?

It's a harder and longer process than sitting in your bedroom for 3 months doing nothing and declaring yourself you are now a woman.Yes but you are claiming that he joined the Met in order to abuse women. Maybe he just wanted to be a copper and was an abuser anyway.

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[Berwickhibby]

Out of interest, is your issue that you don’t think trans people should be allowed to use regular public toilets/changing rooms etc?

Once transitioned no problem …my honest concern is the possibility of abuse by predators claiming to be trans, I have said previously that I fully support the spirit of the Act and people with gender issues need as much support and help as possible. The abuse I imagine will not come from those transitioning.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Why do they become policemen, priests, teacher etc?

You'll find sexual predators in almost all occupations. The one's with sexual offence records are however limited in the occupations they can involve themselves in for obvious reasons. These laws apply equally to men and women with such records.

What confuses me is why you think a man pretending to identify as a woman would somehow make it easier for him to access vulnerable people. What are you basing that on?

[CropleyWasGod]

In other news, the UK Government have rowed back on their previous view that conversion therapy for trans people in England & Wales can be allowed:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64304142

Some good news :agree:

[WeeRussell]

Once transitioned no problem …my honest concern is the possibility of abuse by predators claiming to be trans, I have said previously that I fully support the spirit of the Act and people with gender issues need as much support and help as possible. The abuse I imagine will not come from those transitioning.

Fair dos and Thanks for reply 👍

[CropleyWasGod]

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/news/news/a-statement-from-scottish-civil-society-organisations-on-the-uk-governments-intervention-o/

[Ozyhibby]

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/news/news/a-statement-from-scottish-civil-society-organisations-on-the-uk-governments-intervention-o/

Yeah, but what would they know?[emoji849]


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[James310]

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/news/news/a-statement-from-scottish-civil-society-organisations-on-the-uk-governments-intervention-o/

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a Scottish Government organisation, I remember at the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry they were wheeled out with a statement whenever things looked bad for the SG.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not sure if you are being serious?

It's a harder and longer process than sitting in your bedroom for 3 months doing nothing and declaring yourself you are now a woman.

Which pretty much proves the point that predators will do what they do regardless of checks and balances.

[Kato]

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a SG Government organisation, I remember at the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry they were wheeled out with a statement whenever things looked bad for the SG.Is this the thing you call "deflection"?



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[James310]

Is this the thing you call "deflection"?



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No, just an opinion. Look who funds most of those organisations.

[James310]

Which pretty much proves the point that predators will do what they do regardless of checks and balances.

So why make it easier for them than it already is? We should just accept it happens so do nothing?

[ronaldo7]

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/news/news/a-statement-from-scottish-civil-society-organisations-on-the-uk-governments-intervention-o/

Very powerful.

[ronaldo7]

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a Scottish Government organisation, I remember at the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry they were wheeled out with a statement whenever things looked bad for the SG.

In other news, Rape crisis Scotland are a registered charity and have been since 1996, pre dating the reconvened Scottish Parliament.

[Kato]

No, just an opinion. Look who funds most of those organisations.I see, it's when others look at who funds people it's deflection.

Did you read the article?

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[147lothian]

Why would identifying as a woman give anybody increased access to children?

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison-service-criticised

[Stairway 2 7]

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/news/news/a-statement-from-scottish-civil-society-organisations-on-the-uk-governments-intervention-o/

An organisation who defended their Edinburgh leader a trans women, when she said that women who have been raped and don't want to speak to trans councillors are bigoted and need re-education. They are very much on the side of trans women being literal women so should be in female rape crisis groups

[James310]

I see, it's when others look at who funds people it's deflection.

Did you read the article?

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It's an option like everyone else has, I am not surprised it reflects the position of the SG though. Ultimately the courts will decide who is right and who is wrong.

I see no difference if a bunch of Tory funded organisations came out with the opposite view and people went well of course they would say that, they are funded by the Tories.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds for 71 days, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Pollmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison (https://www.news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison)

They could have committed these crimes anyway without the need to identify as a woman.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Ultimately the courts will decide who is right and who is wrong.

They won't though, because the UK Government can just overrule them anyway.

[WeeRussell]

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds for 71 days, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Pollmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison (https://www.news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison)

Would it be pedantic to suggest that someone could grab a victim by the face and force them into a cubicle without being a fully recognised trans person?

[Hibrandenburg]

So why make it easier for them than it already is? We should just accept it happens so do nothing?

So why have police, teachers or priests if they're an even bigger risk than transgender women? "Because we need them" isn't an acceptable answer because that would open a can of worms regarding many other minority sections of society.

[CropleyWasGod]

No, just an opinion. Look who funds most of those organisations.

And here's mine.

I have worked with and against many of those organisations over a period of over 20 years. I deeply disagree with their views on some things, and applaud them on others.

However, at no time would I ever doubt their integrity and their commitment to their own values, even if I disagree with them. The suggestion that they would compromise those values for cash is pretty offensive.

To paraphrase a colleague, "if they resort to ad hominem attacks, you've probably won the debate".

[Ozyhibby]

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison-service-criticised

What has that got to do with the GRA? And what has it to do with the equalities act in England?


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[He's here!]

‘Take back control’. Unless your Scottish. [emoji35]
Disgusting after last week boasting about devolving power away from Westminster. Fails the first test.


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There's only one party eager to engineer the end of devolution by exploiting this issue for political ends. And it's not the Tories.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

There's only one party eager to engineer the end of devolution by exploiting this issue for political ends. And it's not the Tories.

Would that be the SNP, Labour, Lib Dem and Tory Party? Because MSPs across the board have backed the Gender Reform Bill.

[Kato]

There's only one party eager to engineer the end of devolution by exploiting this issue for political ends. And it's not the Tories.6 years of engineering a bill that is designed to trigger the UK Govt into revoking it.

If your assertion is true the SNP must be the best politicians ever to politic.

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[James310]

They won't though, because the UK Government can just overrule them anyway.

Do you know this for a fact? What's the lottery numbers please?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Do you know this for a fact? What's the lottery numbers please?

I said they can, I can't say whether they actually will or not. But the fact remains that they have given themselves the power to do so.

[weecounty hibby]

There's only one party eager to engineer the end of devolution by exploiting this issue for political ends. And it's not the Tories.

Yip, the Westminster Tories. SNP, Labour, Lib Dems, greens and even Tories voted for the Bill. Your point would be funny if it wasn't that you actually believed it

[James310]

And here's mine.

I have worked with and against many of those organisations over a period of over 20 years. I deeply disagree with their views on some things, and applaud them on others.

However, at no time would I ever doubt their integrity and their commitment to their own values, even if I disagree with them. The suggestion that they would compromise those values for cash is pretty offensive.

To paraphrase a colleague, "if they resort to ad hominem attacks, you've probably won the debate".

The trans woman who runs the Edinburgh Rape Centre, the one who caused controversy with her views, guess which party she tried to become an MSP for? The SNP. I don't believe for one minute they don't let their political views impact their decisions either deliberately or via an unconscious bias. Politics in Scotland is so divisive it would be impossible to find a genuinely impartial organisation that is funded by the government. We have seen the third sector say they are scared to speak for fear of losing funding.

It's no different to the many on here who say the BBC has an inbuilt bias and that's lapped up.

All in my opinion of course.

[Ozyhibby]

6 years of engineering a bill that is designed to trigger the UK Govt into revoking it.

If your assertion is true the SNP must be the best politicians ever to politic.

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Especially as at the time they started it, the UK govt was intending doing the same thing.


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[CropleyWasGod]

The trans woman who runs the Edinburgh Rape Centre, the one who caused controversy with her views, guess which party she tried to become an MSP for? The SNP. I don't believe for one minute they don't let their political views impact their decisions either deliberately or via an unconscious bias. Politics in Scotland is so divisive it would be impossible to find a genuinely impartial organisation that is funded by the government. We have seen the third sector say they are scared to speak for fear of losing funding.

It's no different to the many on here who say the BBC has an inbuilt bias and that's lapped up.

All in my opinion of course.

ERCC didn't sign that letter. They are irrelevant to this part of the debate.

As for the bit in bold, you're wrong. I have worked with and for a few, and know of plenty.

(and, no, I'm not saying who they are. I value my anonymity :greengrin)

[Kato]

Especially as at the time they started it, the UK govt was intending doing the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYeah, but they knew the UK Govt would drop it because, as asserted by He's Here, the SNP are the greatest political chicanarists ever.

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[CropleyWasGod]

Yeah, but they knew the UK Govt would drop it because, as asserted by He's Here, the SNP are the greatest political chicanarists ever.

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Why I love Hibs.net #324.

If that's not a word, it should be :greengrin

[greenlex]

Yeah, but they knew the UK Govt would drop it because, as asserted by He's Here, the SNP are the greatest political chicanarists ever.

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Fabulous apart from the spelling. Cicadarists?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Chicano artists? :dunno:

I don't know what the SNP have in connection to Mexican art. But I'm glad there is one. :cb

[CropleyWasGod]

Fabulous apart from the spelling. Cicadarists?

That's just not cricket.

[greenlex]

That's just not cricket.

😁

[Bristolhibby]

Obviously not 🙄 but lets deflect and ignore an Act that could put predators in women’s safe spaces

It might not also.

J

[Bristolhibby]

So what's the problem?

Why would a man who has the intent of committing sexual assault, wait 3 months to have their gender identification changed just so they can legally access a female space in order to commit an illegal act?

It's completely illogical.

I know. It’s all a bit Simpsons “will anyone think of the children”.

Criminals gonna do crime. It’s what they do.

Bill or not.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/lordcfalconer/status/1615400867015819278?s=46&t=VnmTONiEb6M4Oxi9T3TeFA

Labour peer has his say.


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[Bristolhibby]

Ask Katie Dolatowaski, who is male but identifies as a woman and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Dunfermline Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into a female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her. This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds, and a woman only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowaski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after assaulting a fellow inmate has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison-service-criticised

This all happened before the GRB was passed.

No impact. Like I said, rapists are going to rape.

J

[Kato]

Fabulous apart from the spelling. Cicadarists?As in "chicanery".

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[Moulin Yarns]

Interesting response to HMG's intervention from a number of Civil Society organisations:-

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/news/news/a-statement-from-scottish-civil-society-organisations-on-the-uk-governments-intervention-o/

Thanks CWG 👍

[Moulin Yarns]

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a Scottish Government organisation, I remember at the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry they were wheeled out with a statement whenever things looked bad for the SG.

Aye right 🙄


https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/about-history/

Been on the go longer than the Scottish pretendy parliament!!!

[Moulin Yarns]

That's just not cricket.

Brought a giggle from me in this sometimes disturbing debate 😁

[James310]

Aye right ��


https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/about-history/

Been on the go longer than the Scottish pretendy parliament!!!

Not sure what you mean? What's that got to do with who funds them?

This the same people?

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/rape-crisis-scotland-slammed-by-snp-worker-who-helped-clear-tory-msp-s-name

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/ex-rape-crisis-employee-wins-25866762

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Not sure what you mean? What's that got to do with who funds them?

This the same people?

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/rape-crisis-scotland-slammed-by-snp-worker-who-helped-clear-tory-msp-s-name

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/ex-rape-crisis-employee-wins-25866762

They are a charity that receives donations. They are funded by anybody who donates to their cause. The same applies to Rape Crisis England & Wales.

[grunt]

Rape Crisis Scotland are basically a Scottish Government organisation

I wonder if you realise how desperate you sound, criticising a charity designed to assist rape victims. Low even for you.

[Berwickhibby]

Thank goodness we have the Charity Rape Crisis….very little Government or Official support for victims.

[Moulin Yarns]

Thank goodness we have the Charity Rape Crisis….very little Government or Official support for victims.

Certainly not a lot of support from the people who should protect them, such as the metropolitan police!!!!

[Stairway 2 7]

I wonder if you realise how desperate you sound, criticising a charity designed to assist rape victims. Low even for you.

A charity who defended a trans women staff member who said if rape victims want to be seen by a biological female, then they are bigoted and need re-education. Disgusting views

[Ozyhibby]

I think after seeing Alistair Jack’s legal case this afternoon we are back to trans rapist and peado scare stories.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I think after seeing Alistair Jack’s legal case this afternoon we are back to trans rapist and peado scare stories.


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Us talking about the legality of this is pretty silly. I'm sure the court's will be called and decide. The winner will be correct on the legality

[greenlex]

As in "chicanery".

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Aye but I think cicadery works better.😁😁

[Berwickhibby]

Certainly not a lot of support from the people who should protect them, such as the metropolitan police!!!!

I know I am a bit pissed, but you know nothing!!! the majority of the Met are hard working decent people, you know nothing about rape victims and the trauma suffered by them both male and female. I have dealt with the cruelty committed to others that you could not imagine. I was SOIT trained so do me a favour STFU or piss off

[CropleyWasGod]

A charity who defended a trans women staff member who said if rape victims want to be seen by a biological female, then they are bigoted and need re-education. Disgusting views

They are different organisations.

The one you are talking about is Edinburgh RCS. They didn't sign the letter under debate.

It's Rape Crisis Scotland that the discussion is about.

[James310]

I wonder if you realise how desperate you sound, criticising a charity designed to assist rape victims. Low even for you.

You seem to have a real problem with criticism of anything that's remotely related to the Scottish Government or SNP.

I am sure they do a great job in supporting victims and I am not critical of the day to day work they do. What I disagree with is the way RCS were and are wheeled out for statements every time something negative seemed to happen in the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry and then again today another "statement" that surprise surprise supports the Scottish Government. I would hope the SNP aren't using a rape charity to further their political aims, that would be a new low, even for them.

[CropleyWasGod]

You seem to have a real problem with criticism of anything that's remotely related to the Scottish Government or SNP.

I am sure they do a great job in supporting victims and I am not critical of the day to day work they do. What I disagree with is the way RCS were and are wheeled out for statements every time something negative seemed to happen in the Alex Salmond trial and inquiry and then again today another "statement" that surprise surprise supports the Scottish Government. I would hope the SNP aren't using a rape charity to further their political aims, that would be a new low, even for them.

Do you have the same issues with the 14 other signatories?

[Stairway 2 7]

They are different organisations.

The one you are talking about is Edinburgh RCS. They didn't sign the letter under debate.

It's Rape Crisis Scotland that the discussion is about.

They are part of the same umbrella and backed Madwha and her comments at the time. They are free to have the opinion trans women are literally women, so should be in female rape crisis. But they are definitely on one side of the argument.

The comments that rape victims being bigoted and needing re-education is just vile, I know you'll agree. It shows the shades of the debate and the extreme views

[TrumpIsAPeado]

A charity who defended a trans women staff member who said if rape victims want to be seen by a biological female, then they are bigoted and need re-education. Disgusting views

This is what she actually said:

“Sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. It is not a discerning crime. But these spaces are also for you. But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices.

If you have to re-frame your trauma, I think it is important as part of that re-framing, having a more positive relationship with it, where it becomes a story that empowers you and allows you to go and do other more beautiful things with your life, you also have to re-frame your relationship with prejudice.

Otherwise, you can’t really, in my view, recover from trauma and I think that’s a very important message that I am often discussing with my colleagues at Edinburgh Rape Crisis.


Because you know, to me, therapy is political, and it isn’t always seen as that.”

[Stairway 2 7]

This is what she actually said:

It was in reference to objecting to trans women treating females. Absolutely vile to speak of re-educating rape victims. They don't need education they need support at their lowest point.

[James310]

Do you have the same issues with the 14 other signatories?

Not so much as they aren't wheeled out as and when the Scottish Government needs a statement to support whatever it is they want. Although I am sure most are majority funded by the SG so will have some in built bias that will support the Government's view.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It was in reference to objecting to trans women treating females. Absolutely vile to speak of re-educating rape victims. They don't need education they need support at their lowest point.

Support often involves some form of re-education. When somebody has been though such a high level of trauma, it's not uncommon for them to lose control over multiple aspects of their life as a result. Addressing the emotional impact is only one aspect of the support that is often required.