The Trans Rights Debate

[Hibrandenburg]

Daily Mail down south getting hot and bothered about something to do with CoE considering gender neutrality for god.

Front page. Main story.

So much of this is about the older demographic (who vote and who have the most money) freaking at change, and this headline is emblematic of that.

It all serves to marginalise trans folk more and more. We're probably at the same point in the progress of humanity on this island as we were with gays in the 70s. I am ashamed of that.

You'll get dog's abuse for drawing parallels with previous inequality injustices. But you're right.

[Stairway 2 7]

You'll get dog's abuse for drawing parallels with previous inequality injustices. But you're right.

Nah its nonsense. As joanna cherry says probably the biggest group of people opposing since the start women won't wheesht, have a large section from lesbian groups. They have been fighting inequality for decades. There's obviously bigoted people that oppose GRA no doubt, but the vast majority aren't and are cross party.

In every poll almost all agree with the vast majority of trans rights improvements. They are for the right to change sex easier, get married, adopt ect, but want a few caveats. To compare that to people's opinions on LGBT in the 70s is mental

People like to group everyone in a box but it weakens their argument to just being ridiculous

[Moulin Yarns]

I imagine now that the 'individual' has been named we'll see the story across most of tomorrow's front pages.

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/galasheils-man-charged-after-missing-11-year-old-traced-after-search-operation-by-police-and-public

A man has been charged.

[archie]

Daily Mail down south getting hot and bothered about something to do with CoE considering gender neutrality for god.

Front page. Main story.

So much of this is about the older demographic (who vote and who have the most money) freaking at change, and this headline is emblematic of that.

It all serves to marginalise trans folk more and more. We're probably at the same point in the progress of humanity on this island as we were with gays in the 70s. I am ashamed of that.
I hesitated to respond to this as I know how it will go, but I think there are some issues with how you are representing this. While on a superficial level there are comparisons, they don't stand up to much examination. What we are witnessing now is a clash of rights. I can't think of a single case where advancing the rights of gay people took away rights from anyone else. You could argue that, at the margins, there were cases about services provided, etc. But I struggle to see any negative impact on society of providing rights for gay people, but I do see lots of positives. The current debate about trans lives is different on so many levels. While I think people are generally sympathetic and have live and let live attitudes, there is encroachment, particularly on women's rights. There have been lots of attempts on here to dismiss or minimise these on here. In addition, I do think it is legitimate to have debate about the impact on society of medicalised and drug supported pathways which are, in many cases, irreversible. That is absolutely not to say that these routes should be closed off where they are needed. But this is one reason why the link to gay rights is weak. Indeed some gay people see this as an attack on their gay identity.

Unfortunately, this has got caught up in constitutional issues. There is a defend at all costs and attack at all costs mentality, which makes serious debate on a sensitive issue almost impossible. Where people raise issues they are described as anti trans. To my mind this is the same as describing the March on Washington as anti-white. It's not an attempt to seriously engage but rather to shut down.

My issues with the bill are the vagueness and muddle that I think it represents. I have mentioned before that a close family member was involved in supporting someone who physically transitioned. Their story could not be further from the noise that passes for debate just now.

[Glory Lurker]

I hesitated to respond to this as I know how it will go, but I think there are some issues with how you are representing this. While on a superficial level there are comparisons, they don't stand up to much examination. What we are witnessing now is a clash of rights. I can't think of a single case where advancing the rights of gay people took away rights from anyone else. You could argue that, at the margins, there were cases about services provided, etc. But I struggle to see any negative impact on society of providing rights for gay people, but I do see lots of positives. The current debate about trans lives is different on so many levels. While I think people are generally sympathetic and have live and let live attitudes, there is encroachment, particularly on women's rights. There have been lots of attempts on here to dismiss or minimise these on here. In addition, I do think it is legitimate to have debate about the impact on society of medicalised and drug supported pathways which are, in many cases, irreversible. That is absolutely not to say that these routes should be closed off where they are needed. But this is one reason why the link to gay rights is weak. Indeed some gay people see this as an attack on their gay identity.

Unfortunately, this has got caught up in constitutional issues. There is a defend at all costs and attack at all costs mentality, which makes serious debate on a sensitive issue almost impossible. Where people raise issues they are described as anti trans. To my mind this is the same as describing the March on Washington as anti-white. It's not an attempt to seriously engage but rather to shut down.

My issues with the bill are the vagueness and muddle that I think it represents. I have mentioned before that a close family member was involved in supporting someone who physically transitioned. Their story could not be further from the noise that passes for debate just now.

Thanks for the reply. I agree with a lot of it.

I don't expect folk to remember but I've said already on this thread that I don't have a view on the GRA as I don't know enough about it. I've had plenty of time to address that but I haven't and am still not informed enough to say anything one way or the other.

My posts aren't about the GRA. What I am appalled at is how it is suddenly open season on trans people generally. It is just as it used to be with gay people.

[He's here!]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/galasheils-man-charged-after-missing-11-year-old-traced-after-search-operation-by-police-and-public

A man has been charged.

Most outlets are now going with 'transgender butcher'. Could be yet another new niche gender I guess:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64563472

[147lothian]

I don’t use til-tok, but isn’t that claim similar to saying people are starting to be racist on Facebook, which is bad news for non-racists? I.E it’s a social media platform with all sorts of ranging views, including unfortunate ones held by ignorant minorities.

Often those unfortunate ones are removed due to being inappropriate and harmful.

I don't use tiktok either but that is no-where near what is being claimed all that is being said is that the more outlandish claims for example people identifying as a frog or wolf are being called out, which I guess was always going to happen because they were making the platform look ridiculous, so was always going to happen eventually, all that is being said is claims of identifying as something that is removed from reality is a fad, which users have got fed up with.

[WeeRussell]

I don't use tiktok either but that is no-where near what is being claimed all that is being said is that the more outlandish claims for example people identifying as a frog or wolf are being called out, which I guess was always going to happen because they were making the platform look ridiculous, so was always going to happen eventually, all that is being said is claims of identifying as something that is removed from reality is a fad, which users have got fed up with.

When I said claimed I was referring to your positioning of things that it’s bad news for Nicola Sturgeon that something is being said on tik-tok.. when pretty much anything and everything is likely to be said on tik-tok.

Like I say, I don’t know that much about the platform so won’t argue the point any further 👍

[CropleyWasGod]

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this, but it piqued my interest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/god-is-neither-male-nor-female-church-of-england-is-considering-gender-neutral-terms-12805759

PC gone mad, or an acceptance of the Divine Feminine?

[Stairway 2 7]

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this, but it piqued my interest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/god-is-neither-male-nor-female-church-of-england-is-considering-gender-neutral-terms-12805759

PC gone mad, or an acceptance of the Divine Feminine?

Think it's something that will never happen but will be used by papers to try and froth anger on both sides, a bit like no schools singing bah bah blacksheep. Best ignored

[CropleyWasGod]

Think it's something that will never happen but will be used by papers to try and froth anger on both sides, a bit like no schools singing bah bah blacksheep. Best ignored

I won't be ignoring it. 😀 I'm always open to.the DF concept, but that's perhaps for a separate thread

[Stairway 2 7]

I won't be ignoring it. 😀 I'm always open to.the DF concept, but that's perhaps for a separate thread

I've no skin in the game as I think it's all rhubarb. I would have similar interests in the spiderman canon.

[Ozyhibby]

I've no skin in the game as I think it's all rhubarb. I would have similar interests in the spiderman canon.

I’ve had my suspicions, what with the tights and all…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

I’ve had my suspicions, what with the tights and all…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Spiderman fans would get their Web in a twist if you called them tights, unless you're talking about the church but I think that's more frocks

[Kato]

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this, but it piqued my interest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/god-is-neither-male-nor-female-church-of-england-is-considering-gender-neutral-terms-12805759

PC gone mad, or an acceptance of the Divine Feminine?The ancient Greeks, Aramiacs and Hebrews had this discussion millenia ago.

Iirc the answer they came up with is that God is "ineffable".

I don't have the words to describe what that means.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

The ancient Greeks, Aramiacs and Hebrews had this discussion millenia ago.

Iirc the answer they came up with is that God is "ineffable".

I don't have the words to describe what that means.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

:greengrin:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

https://youtu.be/hjcXXkOHTeU

When God was a girl. 😉

[He's here!]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/man-court-charged-over-disappearance-29173549

Interesting to see he's still being referred to as a man despite identifying as a female. Wonder how he'll be referred to in court.

It'll certainly save Sturgeon tying herself in knots again if the media stick with 'man'.

[WeeRussell]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/man-court-charged-over-disappearance-29173549

Interesting to see he's still being referred to as a man despite identifying as a female. Wonder how he'll be referred to in court.

It'll certainly save Sturgeon tying herself in knots again if the media stick with 'man'.

Have you ever thought of being a linesman?

[147lothian]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/man-court-charged-over-disappearance-29173549

Interesting to see he's still being referred to as a man despite identifying as a female. Wonder how he'll be referred to in court.

It'll certainly save Sturgeon tying herself in knots again if the media stick with 'man'.

Very interesting read, Ella Wheelan, exposed how Gender Self-ID doesn't stand up to scrutiny on Question Time when Jenny Gilruth tied herself in knots trying to evade her question.

Also Nicola Sturgeon has done mental gymnastics trying to defend Gender Self-ID, there is starting to be a realization within the SNP that making a niche issue a constitutional battle is political suicide considering the conflict in interests between trans rights to have Gender Self-ID and the rights of biological women to have same sex spaces. Trans women are women except when they're rapists is an Orwellian absurdity.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/transgender-debate-in-scotland-self-id-is-dangerous-lunacy-that-threatens-womens-rights-kenny-macaskill-4018179

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64586523

A step in the right direction.

[He's here!]

Very interesting read, Ella Wheelan, exposed how Gender Self-ID doesn't stand up to scrutiny on Question Time when Jenny Gilruth tied herself in knots trying to evade her question.

Also Nicola Sturgeon has done mental gymnastics trying to defend Gender Self-ID, there is starting to be a realization within the SNP that making a niche issue a constitutional battle is political suicide considering the conflict in interests between trans rights to have Gender Self-ID and the rights of biological women to have same sex spaces. Trans women are women except when they're rapists is an Orwellian absurdity.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/transgender-debate-in-scotland-self-id-is-dangerous-lunacy-that-threatens-womens-rights-kenny-macaskill-4018179

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-64579774

They seem to be sticking with 'man' in this case.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-64579774

They seem to be sticking with 'man' in this case.

Presumably because, when charged, the suspect was comfortable with that.

[147lothian]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/man-court-charged-over-disappearance-29173549

Interesting to see he's still being referred to as a man despite identifying as a female. Wonder how he'll be referred to in court.

It'll certainly save Sturgeon tying herself in knots again if the media stick with 'man'.

Make no mistake, Police Scotland acknowledging the reality of biological sex, over the fantasy world of 'I identify as' is one in the eye for Nicola Sturgeon.

I view Nicola Sturgeon as a very able politician she must know that she is doing the cause of independence harm, by sticking with the lunacy of Gender Self-ID.

It won't be long before Nicola Sturgeon takes a gig at the EU Mark my words.

[Hibrandenburg]

Make no mistake, Police Scotland acknowledging the reality of biological sex, over the fantasy world of 'I identify as' is one in the eye for Nicola Sturgeon.

I view Nicola Sturgeon as a very able politician she must know that she is doing the cause of independence harm, by sticking with the lunacy of Gender Self-ID.

It won't be long before Nicola Sturgeon takes a gig at the EU Mark my words.

Cool, as a non member state I take it that will happen after Scotland re-enters the EU.

[ronaldo7]

Cool, as a non member state I take it that will happen after Scotland re-enters the EU.

😂

[Stairway 2 7]

Only gig in the EU she can take is at Scotland House and that won't pay enough. Can see her getting a UN job. If she's smart though she'll do the speech toures in the US, im sure she would do very well.

That utter buffoon Boris has apparently made 5 million from talks since he stopped being PM. Actually mind numbing and infuriating that people pay huge sums for him to bumble

[147lothian]

Cool, as a non member state I take it that will happen after Scotland re-enters the EU.

Whether she goes to the EU or some other globalist organization like the World Health Organization or just retires and does nothing the point is the same that she will soon move away from front line politics for the sake of Independence. Dropping below a 50 percent lead in the opinion polls, a lead that took 30 years to build up over the madness of Gender Self-ID makes no sense to the cause of Independence, Stuart MacDonald SNP MP is the latest to break ranks and point this out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64566957

[He's here!]

Presumably because, when charged, the suspect was comfortable with that.

Perhaps. I just thought it was curious that, as the Record points out, both his/her Facebook accounts as Andrew/Amy identify as 'female' and that 'criminal incidents are recorded according to the self-identified gender of victims, witnesses and suspects'.

Bearing in mind today's reversal by Scottish prisons of Sturgeon's self-ID policy is it perhaps the case that Police Scotland have also departed from that policy in this case to spare her fresh pronoun pain?

[CropleyWasGod]

Perhaps. I just thought it was curious that, as the Record points out, both his/her Facebook accounts as Andrew/Amy identify as 'female' and that 'criminal incidents are recorded according to the self-identified gender of victims, witnesses and suspects'.

Bearing in mind today's reversal by Scottish prisons of Sturgeon's self-ID policy is it perhaps the case that Police Scotland have also departed from that policy in this case to spare her fresh pronoun pain?

PS were reviewing their gender-ID policy last year. AFAIK, they haven't announced any change

[Stairway 2 7]

PS were reviewing their gender-ID policy last year. AFAIK, they haven't announced any change

The change is all people will go temporarily to the prison of their gender at birth until assessment, that's been announced today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1623784415720615937

[CropleyWasGod]

The change is all people will go temporarily to the prison of their gender at birth until assessment, that's been announced today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1623784415720615937

That's not Police Scotland, which is what we were talking about:)

[Stairway 2 7]

That's not Police Scotland, which is what we were talking about:)

Thought your ps was for sps who did the uturn. It's pointless speculating on police Scotland as the man/woman could have asked to be charged as a man or might not even even want to be seen as a woman

[CropleyWasGod]

Thought your ps was for sps who did the uturn. It's pointless speculating on police Scotland as the man/woman could have asked to be charged as a man or might not even even want to be seen as a woman

Agreed on that.

Edit. Just re-read the Sun piece. The headline is "Trans butcher charged...". The T word is unnecessary IMO, and only serves to help demonise an already marginalised community. Imagine if they had been described as gay, Muslim or (heaven forfend) cis.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www-walesonline-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/welsh-government-plan-make-easier-26174624.amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%2 51%24s&aoh=16759796299077&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.walesonline.co.uk%2Fnew s%2Fpolitics%2Fwelsh-government-plan-make-easier-26174624


A step in the right direction in Wales. Wonder how long before England catches up?

[He's here!]

Fair play, a well constructed argument, and a lot more refreshing to read than the usual demands for a yes/no answer from the likes of Douglas Ross.

I'll forgive your slightly clumsy language around autism, but I take the point. I don't think anyone should be forced into life altering decisions in childhood, like you I'd like to think that changing attitudes in our younger generation will render this pretty much a moot point. Hopefully people can live the life they want to live without feeling pressured into going down an irreversible path.

I'm not that well up on what changes re women's rights in this bill I'm afraid, but what I do know is that we can't constantly legislate based on the worst case scenario - the vast majority of people want to get along. Of course there will be, as there always is, a small number of people who want to get around the law for whatever personal gain they are after, but these people must be treated separately from everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty has to apply here, and the amendment previously mentioned should hopefully deal with 'the guilty ones.'

As always, heavily caveated with 'I don't really know what I'm talking about' vibes on my part.

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579

Sinead/Sean's story mirrors my concerns around the legislation when it comes to children.

[147lothian]

I know that some people are going to say it's Alex Salmond he is only saying this because he is bitter, but the point he is making is basically the same as Stuart MacDonald SNP MP, that the cause of Scottish independence is being damaged by going down this rabbit hole of Gender Self-ID.

There is obviously a conflict that cannot be resolved between the nine SNP members who broke party whip to vote against the GRRB and Nicola Sturgeon, there is no way the SNP would have still been in this position if Alex Salmond was still in charge he would have sat down with the nine, and changed policy to avoid making it a constitutional issue.

The way that Ella Wheelan made Jenny Gilruth MSP tie herself in knots trying to avoid answering her question on Question Time and also the way Nicola Sturgeon has had to do mental gymnastics over Gender Self-ID, and has been reduced to incoherence. Must show that this is a fight they can't possibly win.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsoU-hGkaAs

[Kato]

:greengrin:greengrinYou may laugh but the question still remains - "Is God Mr Ineffable or Mrs Ineffable".

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[McSwanky]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579

Sinead/Sean's story mirrors my concerns around the legislation when it comes to children.

Fair enough. It's a valid viewpoint. on the flip side, stories like this actually make me wonder if things would be better for the likes of Sinead/Sean after the legislation. With more acceptance (both legally and in their community) for people who want to live a certain way without going down the route of life changing surgery, health professionals may be more likely to suggest a 'wait and see' approach as people would be able to change gender (and back again) without so many hoops to jump through.

Just my tuppence.

[McSwanky]

tie herself in knots

If I had a pound for every time anyone has parroted that phrase on this thread, reckon I'd have enough to buy myself a pretty decent new pair of trainers! :greengrin

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579

Sinead/Sean's story mirrors my concerns around the legislation when it comes to children.

This sums up why many think 16 is too young.

"Ms Watson said she was particularly worried about the idea that the age limit for legally changing gender could be lowered to 16.

"If you don't actually have gender dysphoria and you go down that route you end up like me, where you've irreversibly changed your body with hormones and surgery and you feel humiliated, you feel ashamed of yourself and you feel completely betrayed by the people that allowed this to happen," she says.

[He's here!]

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-greens-suspend-trans-activist-29173907

I know it's the Express, but IIRC Douglas was the one singled out by the Scottish Greens (and Lib Dem leader Alex Cole-Hamilton) as the sort of person who exemplified why the bill had been passed. Judging by the pic published they would appear to be fans.

[Paul1642]

This sums up why many think 16 is too young.

"Ms Watson said she was particularly worried about the idea that the age limit for legally changing gender could be lowered to 16.

"If you don't actually have gender dysphoria and you go down that route you end up like me, where you've irreversibly changed your body with hormones and surgery and you feel humiliated, you feel ashamed of yourself and you feel completely betrayed by the people that allowed this to happen," she says.

Anyone who has met an average 16 year old should be able to quickly conclude that they shouldn’t be making any unnecessary life changing decisions.

[Glory Lurker]

Anyone who has met an average 16 year old should be able to quickly conclude that they shouldn’t be making any unnecessary life changing decisions.

Should they consent to their own medical treatment?

[Paul1642]

Should they consent to their own medical treatment?

They can’t even get a tattoo at 16.

[Glory Lurker]

They can’t even get a tattoo at 16.

Should they be able to consent to their own medical treatment?

[Berwickhibby]

I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

[Hibrandenburg]

I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

:faf:

[WeeRussell]

:faf:

About as much debate as I expected the OP’s announcement to generate, but I suspect not what they were hoping for 😁

There are a couple of individuals that might just be capable of turning this into something mind you…

[ronaldo7]

I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

It's in the express. It must be right. 😂😂😂😂

Leaving this for debate. 😃

[Glory Lurker]

And if it is correct, in a secular society should anybody think it is cool that some men are trying to dictate to people what they should think because of some weird god stuff?

[Berwickhibby]

About as much debate as I expected the OP’s announcement to generate, but I suspect not what they were hoping for 😁

There are a couple of individuals that might just be capable of turning this into something mind you…

I did not leave an opinion at the fear or of being called an Islamophobe… as I personally think it’s bollocks

[WeeRussell]

I did not leave an opinion at the fear or of being called an Islamophobe… as I personally think it’s bollocks

You’re not an islamophobe, and it is bollocks 👍

[Moulin Yarns]

You’re not an islamophobe, and it is bollocks 👍

Exclusive! Berwickhibby admits to posting bollocks 😉

[Berwickhibby]

Exclusive! Berwickhibby admits to posting bollocks 😉

Exclusive : Moulin Yarns posts another snidey comment :wink:

[147lothian]

I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

There are parts of Glasgow that have large Muslim & Indian populations.

[WeeRussell]

There are parts of Glasgow that have large Muslim & Indian populations.

Fact.

[Hibrandenburg]

There are parts of Glasgow that have large Muslim & Indian populations.

There are whole swaths of the world that have been held back from progress due to religious belief and its influence on decision making. The fact that religious leaders across the spectrum are now calling the move to grant trans people equal rights as immoral just sways me more to the side of transgender equality.

[Paul1642]

Should they be able to consent to their own medical treatment?

In short No.

Can’t drink, can’t smoke, can’t leave home without parental consent, cant gamble, can’t get a credit card, can’t get a mortgage, can’t drive, if they work a minimum wage job they get paid near enough 50% the wage of an adult doing the same job, can’t get a tattoo, can’t be interviewed by the police without an appropriate adult present, can’t serve on a jury, can’t write a will. can’t marry, can’t serve in the armed forces (can join with parental consent but basically in an education only role until 18), can’t watch porn, can’t buy fireworks, can’t vote (unless it suits the government on special occasions), and get special treatment at court including for the most serious of crimes. Infact a 16 Y/O can’t even view half the films at the cinema or buy the latest call duty.

Why are any of these things more serious than medial consent?

16 year olds should be making the minimal amount of major decisions possible and this includes medical consent. In the UK you’re not an adult until your are 18 and this is to protect kids, not hinder them.

This isn’t a negative opinion of 16 year olds. Like the rest of us I was 16 year old once and I of course knew it all back then and believed that I was mature enough to do all of these things (except with the magic of hindsight I absolutely was not). The 16 year old brain simply isn’t close to being fully developed and should not be making life changing decisions.

[Bristolhibby]

In short No.

Can’t drink, can’t smoke, can’t leave home without parental consent, cant gamble, can’t get a credit card, can’t get a mortgage, can’t drive, if they work a minimum wage job they get paid near enough 50% the wage of an adult doing the same job, can’t get a tattoo, can’t be interviewed by the police without an appropriate adult present, can’t serve on a jury, can’t write a will. can’t marry, can’t serve in the armed forces (can join with parental consent but basically in an education only role until 18), can’t watch porn, can’t buy fireworks, can’t vote (unless it suits the government on special occasions), and get special treatment at court including for the most serious of crimes. Infact a 16 Y/O can’t even view half the films at the cinema or buy the latest call duty.

Why are any of these things more serious than medial consent?

16 year olds should be making the minimal amount of major decisions possible and this includes medical consent. In the UK you’re not an adult until your are 18 and this is to protect kids, not hinder them.

This isn’t a negative opinion of 16 year olds. Like the rest of us I was 16 year old once and I of course knew it all back then and believed that I was mature enough to do all of these things (except with the magic of hindsight I absolutely was not). The 16 year old brain simply isn’t close to being fully developed and should not be making life changing decisions.

In Scotland are you not an adult at 16?

[McSwanky]

In Scotland are you not an adult at 16?It's all a bit blurred. You can e.g. get married, have a baby, join the army, all of which I'd say are life changing experiences, but there are loads of things you can't do, as listed above.

I'm still not convinced the lowering of age is going to have a negative impact, especially as further safeguards seem to be in place, e.g. the three month rule becomes 6 months. As somebody pointed out above, gender fluidity is becoming much more accepted in the younger population now, so I'd like to think obtaining a GRC (whilst reversible for most) won't been seen as that important for most 16/17 year olds. They'll just be allowed to live the way they want to live without a bit of paper to prove "who they are" .

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

[archie]

It's all a bit blurred. You can e.g. get married, have a baby, join the army, all of which I'd say are life changing experiences, but there are loads of things you can't do, as listed above.

I'm still not convinced the lowering of age is going to have a negative impact, especially as further safeguards seem to be in place, e.g. the three month rule becomes 6 months. As somebody pointed out above, gender fluidity is becoming much more accepted in the younger population now, so I'd like to think obtaining a GRC (whilst reversible for most) won't been seen as that important for most 16/17 year olds. They'll just be allowed to live the way they want to live without a bit of paper to prove "who they are" .

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

Is getting a GRC reversible?

[LewysGot2]

Age at which you can do a number of the things are influenced by medical wisdom on the development of the body and the brain. Eg there is a compelling body of evidence showing that the younger a person starts drinking alcohol, statistically they will drink more, have a higher chance of addiction and higher rate of health conditions in later life connected to alcohol use or abuse. If they start drinking regularly prior to their body being fully mature, this increases further. The age of 18 therefore stands even though that same person could possibly marry in Scotland at the age of 16.
They can join the army but not go to combat - there's acknowledgement in employment law that at under 18 they are still minors. Even the kick off time of our youth team games have to be earlier to meet the same standards for U18 employees working hours.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1624491209103142915?s=20&t=QZXXCtOaUvMI4bwgplTGpg

Tavistock scandal 'on a par with East German doping of athletes'.

[147lothian]

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1624491209103142915?s=20&t=QZXXCtOaUvMI4bwgplTGpg

Tavistock scandal 'on a par with East German doping of athletes'.

The Tavistock's reliance on puberty blockers was like the 20th century craze for treating mental illness with lobotomies. Dr Hillary Cass was appalled that the Tavistock never followed established protocols for the safe use of life changing hormone treatment.

Dr Hillary Cass's findings, outlined how the Tavistock failed to keep accurate records of all the children treated with hormones as they grew up, so there was no long-term monitoring of the outcomes. In short the Tavistock was closed because it failed vulnerable children.

The Tavistock used the gender affirming model, which basically means a 14 year old girl with scars on her arms says "I think I was born in the wrong body" and the clinicians confirm this and put her puberty blockers. What will happen now with the closure of the Tavistock and gender clinics being brought into line with NHS Mental Health Services is they will now say to the 14 year old girl with scars on her arms who says she was born in the wrong body, "Ok but first we want to talk to you about the scars on your arms".

https://segm.org/Tavistock-closure-the times

[He's here!]

The Tavistock's reliance on puberty blockers was like the 20th century craze for treating mental illness with lobotomies. Dr Hillary Cass was appalled that the Tavistock never followed established protocols for the safe use of life changing hormone treatment.

Dr Hillary Cass's findings, outlined how the Tavistock failed to keep accurate records of all the children treated with hormones as they grew up, so there was no long-term monitoring of the outcomes. In short the Tavistock was closed because it failed vulnerable children.

The Tavistock used the gender affirming model, which basically means a 14 year old girl with scars on her arms says "I think I was born in the wrong body" and the clinicians confirm this and put her puberty blockers. What will happen now with the closure of the Tavistock and gender clinics being brought into line with NHS Mental Health Services is they will now say to the 14 year old girl with scars on her arms who says she was born in the wrong body, "Ok but first we want to talk to you about the scars on your arms".

https://segm.org/Tavistock-closure-the times

Cass's findings, which underline that gender dysphoria can be transient, have, as you say, sparked a major shift by NHS England in their approach. Her review was ignored by Sturgeon who claimed, bewilderingly, that it didn't apply to Scottish children.

[Bristolhibby]

Meanwhile in the real world violence against Trans people is what I’m more concerned about. Rather than some far out hypothetical scenarios regarding changing rooms.

A 16 year old murdered over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/13/brianna-ghey-family-say-death-left-massive-hole?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Stairway 2 7]

Meanwhile in the real world violence against Trans people is what I’m more concerned about. Rather than some far out hypothetical scenarios regarding changing rooms.

A 16 year old murdered over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/13/brianna-ghey-family-say-death-left-massive-hole?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Although there is undoubtedly a massive problem with hate crimes against trans people, I think it's poor to use a poor young girls death to counter debate, especially when police don't yet suspect a hate crime.

A Cheshire Police spokesman said on Monday: “Whilst this is being investigated as a targeted attack and Brianna was a trans girl, we do not at this time believe it was a hate crime. We ask people to not speculate online ”

[CropleyWasGod]

Although there is undoubtedly a massive problem with hate crimes against trans people, I think it's poor to use a poor young girls death to counter debate, especially when police don't yet suspect a hate crime.

A Cheshire Police spokesman said on Monday: “Whilst this is being investigated as a targeted attack and Brianna was a trans girl, we do not at this time believe it was a hate crime. We ask people to not speculate online ”

There is no need for the T word to be used in the headlines IMO, just as there isn't in the story of the alleged kidnapper in Galashiels. It just fuels division.

[Stairway 2 7]

There is no need for the T word to be used in the headlines IMO, just as there isn't in the alleged kidnapper in Galashiels. It just fuels division.

Agree especially the gala one wouldn't say gay or black kidnapper. who cares it was just a ****bag, they come from all sections of society in equal proportions

[500miles]

There is no need for the T word to be used in the headlines IMO, just as there isn't in the story of the alleged kidnapper in Galashiels. It just fuels division.

If that girl has been killed because she's trans, it definitely matters.

Conversely, if a trans person - particularly one who publicly supported access to womens spaces - thier trans identity isn't without implication.

[CropleyWasGod]

If that girl has been killed because she's trans, it definitely matters.

Conversely, if a trans person - particularly one who publicly supported access to womens spaces - thier trans identity isn't without implication.

There's no evidence to support that, though, so far. If any becomes apparent, then I agree with you.

[Stairway 2 7]

If that girl has been killed because she's trans, it definitely matters.

Conversely, if a trans person - particularly one who publicly supported access to womens spaces - thier trans identity isn't without implication.

First sentence would be true if that is proven the case. The police suspect its not so its just a poor girl murdered and other shameful addition to our knife crime problem.

If its a hate crime its a different story although speculation is daft as it was in Galashiels

[archie]

If that girl has been killed because she's trans, it definitely matters.

Conversely, if a trans person - particularly one who publicly supported access to womens spaces - thier trans identity isn't without implication.
We don't know why the poor kid was killed. All we know is that one child is dead and two children have been lifted for it. What a world

[ronaldo7]

India Willoughby has been told by police not to post her location on social media.

[Ozyhibby]

First sentence would be true if that is proven the case. The police suspect its not so its just a poor girl murdered and other shameful addition to our knife crime problem.

If its a hate crime its a different story although speculation is daft as it was in Galashiels

It’s a real shame that she will be listed as a boy on her death certificate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

India Willoughby has been told by police not to post her location on social media.

Yeah that was at the start of the year. She said police told her to not put up locations as she gets so much vile abuse on social media

[Stairway 2 7]

It’s a real shame that she will be listed as a boy on her death certificate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

She should be listed as whatever her parents want or she would have wanted. GRA wouldn't change that as she was just starting her transition and 16 but an ammendment could be added.

[Ozyhibby]

She should be listed as whatever her parents want or she would have wanted. GRA wouldn't change that as she was just starting her transition and 16 but an ammendment could be added.

Amendment to what?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Amendment to what?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was going to say a family can request what goes on a death certificate. But actually I'm presuming what she wanted I've no idea so daft to comment

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/23318457.tories-wilfully-fanned-flames-extremism/

Excellent article on these far right culture wars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/23318457.tories-wilfully-fanned-flames-extremism/

Excellent article on these far right culture wars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Trying to link all opposition to GRA and trans v women's rights is as bad as linking sexual predators to trans women

[147lothian]

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1624491209103142915?s=20&t=QZXXCtOaUvMI4bwgplTGpg

Tavistock scandal 'on a par with East German doping of athletes'.

The Tavistock is the scandal of our time, there could be as many as 1000 families issuing law suits against the Tavistock. most would have been gender non conforming kids like a feminine boy or masculine girl, who felt like they don't fit in with their peer group, many of whom are either autistic, gay or in some cases both, some of whom would develop body dysmorphia with puberty because they don't fit in, but if they were left alone 90% would have accepted their body at 18 or 19 the majority of these kids would have grown into being well adjusted autistic or gay young adults.

The gay community will eventually wake to the majority of the kids that were being sterilized were gay, so I don't know how the LGBT alliance is going to hold under that side of reality. This story gives the example of one clinical psychologist who was "horrified" at vulnerable children being given irreversible drug treatments following referral by the Tavistock.

Children as young as 10 were referred to specialists with a view to them being prescribed puberty-blocking drugs, and others were referred with very little consultation. This was why the Tavistock was closed following the Cass report.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/

[He's here!]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/23318457.tories-wilfully-fanned-flames-extremism/

Excellent article on these far right culture wars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not 'far right' to be opposed to the SG's gender bill. Absurd link to make. Unless the majority of the Scottish electorate are of a 'far right' persuasion.

[He's here!]

The Tavistock is the scandal of our time, there could be as many as 1000 families issuing law suits against the Tavistock. most would have been gender non conforming kids like a feminine boy or masculine girl, who felt like they don't fit in with their peer group, many of whom are either autistic, gay or in some cases both, some of whom would develop body dysmorphia with puberty because they don't fit in, but if they were left alone 90% would have accepted their body at 18 or 19 the majority of these kids would have grown into being well adjusted autistic or gay young adults.

The gay community will eventually wake to the majority of the kids that were being sterilized were gay, so I don't know how the LGBT alliance is going to hold under that side of reality. This story gives the example of one clinical psychologist who was "horrified" at vulnerable children being given irreversible drug treatments following referral by the Tavistock.

Children as young as 10 were referred to specialists with a view to them being prescribed puberty-blocking drugs, and others were referred with very little consultation. This was why the Tavistock was closed following the Cass report.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/

And yet Sturgeon remained blinkered to all this.

[Mr Grieves]

And yet Sturgeon remained blinkered to all this.

What an utterly bizarre take

[Kato]

It's not 'far right' to be opposed to the SG's gender bill. Absurd link to make. Unless the majority of the Scottish electorate are of a 'far right' persuasion.No it's not. Making political capital out of using inflammatory language is though.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/14/brianna-ghey-killing-being-investigated-as-possible-transphobic-hate

Trans link to the recent child murder now one of the lines of inquiry. It wouldn’t be a surprise in the slightest.

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/14/brianna-ghey-killing-being-investigated-as-possible-transphobic-hate

Trans link to the recent child murder now one of the lines of inquiry. It wouldn’t be a surprise in the slightest.

I found the initial response from the police totally baffling. I even went back to double check articles from a day or two ago and they were stating it wasn't a hate crime. Now, shock horror, they are checking that angle. Why they would rule it out initially I can't understand.

[He's here!]

What an utterly bizarre take

How so? What WAS bizarre was Sturgeon's take on the Cass findings. Her implausible view seems to be that it has no relevance to Scottish children. As I mentioned earlier, NHS England has now dramatically shifted the way it plans to attend to children with gender dysphoria, the emphasis being on the risks associated with inappropriate social transition and the importance of doing so on a case-by-case basis with medical supervision. Sturgeon, on the other hand, is attempting to open up the ultimate form of social transition with no clinical input whatsoever. Discredited campaiging charities such as Mermaids have for years succeed in persuading the NHS to adopt an affirmative approach to gender dysphoria, insisting it is always an indicator of a fixed trans identity and setting many children on the road to irreversible medical treatment. As well as dismissing the concerns of the UN's special rapporteur on this issue (among numerous others associated with her proposed reforms) Sturgeon failed to listen to the concerns of young people who received terrible care from the NHS in Scotland and now regret their transition. It's little wonder that the whole sorry mess has come back to bite her big time.

[He's here!]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/nicola-sturgeon-told-stop-ignoring-trans-children-care-scandal/

'Sturgeon told to stop ignoring damaging NHS care offered to trans children in Scotland'.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lee-anderson-tories-election-trans-b2282185.html?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Main&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1676396626


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glory Lurker]

In short No.

Can’t drink, can’t smoke, can’t leave home without parental consent, cant gamble, can’t get a credit card, can’t get a mortgage, can’t drive, if they work a minimum wage job they get paid near enough 50% the wage of an adult doing the same job, can’t get a tattoo, can’t be interviewed by the police without an appropriate adult present, can’t serve on a jury, can’t write a will. can’t marry, can’t serve in the armed forces (can join with parental consent but basically in an education only role until 18), can’t watch porn, can’t buy fireworks, can’t vote (unless it suits the government on special occasions), and get special treatment at court including for the most serious of crimes. Infact a 16 Y/O can’t even view half the films at the cinema or buy the latest call duty.

Why are any of these things more serious than medial consent?

.

Just to keep us right, in Scotland 16 year olds can leave home without parental consent, can write a will, can get married and can vote in every election other than a UK general election.

[Crunchie]

Just to keep us right, in Scotland 16 year olds can leave home without parental consent, can write a will, can get married and can vote in every election other than a UK general election.
Yet are classed as children in court.

[He's here!]

Yet are classed as children in court.

Completely off topic but talking of children in court I'm glad to see this utter ****bag got the severest sentence permitted:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-64648815

[Crunchie]

Completely off topic but talking of children in court I'm glad to see this utter ****bag got the severest sentence permitted;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-64648815
Agreed, his pals all seemed to have got off lightly.

[Glory Lurker]

Yet are classed as children in court.

What do you mean by that?

[He's here!]

The Tavistock is the scandal of our time, there could be as many as 1000 families issuing law suits against the Tavistock. most would have been gender non conforming kids like a feminine boy or masculine girl, who felt like they don't fit in with their peer group, many of whom are either autistic, gay or in some cases both, some of whom would develop body dysmorphia with puberty because they don't fit in, but if they were left alone 90% would have accepted their body at 18 or 19 the majority of these kids would have grown into being well adjusted autistic or gay young adults.

The gay community will eventually wake to the majority of the kids that were being sterilized were gay, so I don't know how the LGBT alliance is going to hold under that side of reality. This story gives the example of one clinical psychologist who was "horrified" at vulnerable children being given irreversible drug treatments following referral by the Tavistock.

Children as young as 10 were referred to specialists with a view to them being prescribed puberty-blocking drugs, and others were referred with very little consultation. This was why the Tavistock was closed following the Cass report.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-golden-rule-for-scotlands-tavistock-see-nothing-say-nothing-think-nothing-rcdbh57qf

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-golden-rule-for-scotlands-tavistock-see-nothing-say-nothing-think-nothing-rcdbh57qf

The issue is dead in Scotland now. It’s a victory for the culture warriors. Congrats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ElginHibbie]

The issue is dead in Scotland now. It’s a victory for the culture warriors. Congrats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lee Anderson will be thrilled and looking to learn lessons

[He's here!]

The issue is dead in Scotland now. It’s a victory for the culture warriors. Congrats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The thread's about wider issues than just the SG's gender bill/ Sturgeon's poll tax fiasco...but from a Scottish perspective there remain serious concerns about Sandyford's emulation of the discredited Tavistock practices. A step in the right direction is their closure of the service to new patients:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23321587.sandyford-gender-identity-clinic-closed-new-patients/

[CropleyWasGod]

The thread's about wider issues than just the SG's gender bill/ Sturgeon's poll tax fiasco...but from a Scottish perspective there remain serious concerns about Sandyford's emulation of the discredited Tavistock practices. A step in the right direction is their closure of the service to new patients:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23321587.sandyford-gender-identity-clinic-closed-new-patients/

The action is for staffing and funding reasons, not policy or ideological ones.

[He's here!]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/02/15/nicola-sturgeon-brought-trans-row-snp-prepares-rip-gender-bill/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020230216%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20SM+CID_63f8738a7efd55e3eb064051bbcd95f4

SG bill looks set to be ditched altogether.

[Santa Cruz]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/02/15/nicola-sturgeon-brought-trans-row-snp-prepares-rip-gender-bill/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020230216%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20SM+CID_63f8738a7efd55e3eb064051bbcd95f4

SG bill looks set to be ditched altogether.

That's shocking if true. Could have made some amendments to the bill as opposed to abandoning a marginalised section of society.

[Glory Lurker]

That's shocking if true. Could have made some amendments to the bill as opposed to abandoning a marginalised section of society.

I've said a couple of times on this thread that I don't know enough about the Bill to give an opinion on it but definitely feel that ditching it completely would give out all the wrong signals.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/02/15/nicola-sturgeon-brought-trans-row-snp-prepares-rip-gender-bill/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020230216%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20SM+CID_63f8738a7efd55e3eb064051bbcd95f4

SG bill looks set to be ditched altogether.

Fare enough. It’s been passed by the parliament. It’s on the UK governments desk now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[147lothian]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/nicola-sturgeon-told-stop-ignoring-trans-children-care-scandal/

'Sturgeon told to stop ignoring damaging NHS care offered to trans children in Scotland'.

When you get yourself into a hole the best thing to do is stop digging. Barrister Simon Myerside QC has predicted a police investigation into the Tavistock by June 2023

https://twitter.com/SCynic1/status/1552776070352470016

[He's here!]

That's shocking if true. Could have made some amendments to the bill as opposed to abandoning a marginalised section of society.

Or a common sense solution to a hopelessly flawed piece of legislation which, if anything, would have undermined trans rights?

Sturgeon must privately wish it had never seen the light of day. She may have originally believed it would burnish her legacy but it's ended up being a key factor in bringing her down.

[He's here!]

I've said a couple of times on this thread that I don't know enough about the Bill to give an opinion on it but definitely feel that ditching it completely would give out all the wrong signals.

Getting it out of the headlines, which have been so relentlessly negative and damaging towards the SG, is likely to outweigh concerns about what signals abandoning it gives out.

[Santa Cruz]

Or a common sense solution to a hopelessly flawed piece of legislation which, if anything, would have undermined trans rights?

Sturgeon must privately wish it had never seen the light of day. She may have originally believed it would burnish her legacy but it's ended up being a key factor in bringing her down.


This is known as the amendments I mentioned to include more safeguards. Why do you keep referencing one politician, it had cross party support?

[Ozyhibby]

This is known as the amendments I mentioned to include more safeguards. Why do you keep referencing one politician, it had cross party support?

It did have cross party support but the cowardice of Labour and the Lib Dem’s when the s35 order came through was notable. The SNP should waste no more time on this issue. The bill is passed and it’s on Alistair Jack’s desk. Anyone not happy about that can take it up with the UK govt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Santa Cruz]

It did have cross party support but the cowardice of Labour and the Lib Dem’s when the s35 order came through was notable. The SNP should waste no more time on this issue. The bill is passed and it’s on Alistair Jack’s desk. Anyone not happy about that can take it up with the UK govt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I won't be emailing a UK Gov politician. This is SG legislation. They started this process with cross party support. Simply putting more safeguards into the bill by way of amendments to ensure there is no clash with the Equality Act 2010 and address concerns over safe spaces should be enough to satisfy UK Gov imo.

[Ozyhibby]

I won't be emailing a UK Gov politician. This is SG legislation. They started this process with cross party support. Simply putting more safeguards into the bill by way of amendments to ensure there is no clash with the Equality Act 2010 and address concerns over safe spaces should be enough to satisfy UK Gov imo.

Both the Scottish office minister who brought forward the s35 and the equalities minister were asked to meet with the Scottish parliament to discuss this and both declined. It’s their baby now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WeeRussell]

I won't be emailing a UK Gov politician. This is SG legislation. They started this process with cross party support. Simply putting more safeguards into the bill by way of amendments to ensure there is no clash with the Equality Act 2010 and address concerns over safe spaces should be enough to satisfy UK Gov imo.

It should be, SC. But depends if we really believe those were their only concerns and if they really want to be satisfied with something proposed by the SG.

[SHODAN]

Meanwhile in the real world violence against Trans people is what I’m more concerned about. Rather than some far out hypothetical scenarios regarding changing rooms.

A 16 year old murdered over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/13/brianna-ghey-family-say-death-left-massive-hole?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

It's telling that this has already dropped out of the thread discussion.

This national "debate" has literally killed someone. Violence against trans people has skyrocketed in the last few years and it was always going to culminate in something like this.

I was sixteen when this girl was born; that is absolutely heartbreaking to me. No age at all.

[He's here!]

I won't be emailing a UK Gov politician. This is SG legislation. They started this process with cross party support. Simply putting more safeguards into the bill by way of amendments to ensure there is no clash with the Equality Act 2010 and address concerns over safe spaces should be enough to satisfy UK Gov imo.


It probably would be, but doing so would effectively mean stripping out the controversial aspects of the bill which caused all this furore in the first place and rendering the legal protections offered to trans people little different to those already in place (which are, contrary to the claims of campaigners, sufficient in the eyes of many trans people). The bill would be largely redundant.

The cross party support mantra is a bit of a smokescreen as the only party which offered a free vote were the Tories. The scale of the SNP revolt hinted at how much disquiet existed within the party, while Labour...well, they've gone into hiding since the Bryson affair.

[Ozyhibby]

It probably would be, but doing so would effectively mean stripping out the controversial aspects of the bill which caused all this furore in the first place and rendering the legal protections offered to trans people little different to those already in place (which are, contrary to the claims of campaigners, sufficient in the eyes of many trans people). The bill would be largely redundant.

The cross party support mantra is a bit of a smokescreen as the only party which offered a free vote were the Tories. The scale of the SNP revolt hinted at how much disquiet existed within the party, while Labour...well, they've gone into hiding since the Bryson affair.

It’s not going to happen now. I doubt the new FM, whoever it is, goes anywhere near this issue. It will be left as it is just now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s not going to happen now. I doubt the new FM, whoever it is, goes anywhere near this issue. It will be left as it is just now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rightly so. The bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament and stopped by the UK government, if they UK government had wanted to work with the Scottish Government to adapt the legislation then then they would have put in a section 33 order rather than a 35, the ball's in their court.

[CropleyWasGod]

Spain the latest country to adopt self-ID, for 16 and overs.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230216-as-spain-advances-trans-rights-other-early-adopters-hesitate

[archie]

Rightly so. The bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament and stopped by the UK government, if they UK government had wanted to work with the Scottish Government to adapt the legislation then then they would have put in a section 33 order rather than a 35, the ball's in their court.
I thought that section 33 was about competence where section 35 was about impacting on UK.

[He's here!]

Rightly so. The bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament and stopped by the UK government, if they UK government had wanted to work with the Scottish Government to adapt the legislation then then they would have put in a section 33 order rather than a 35, the ball's in their court.

Until yesterday this was 'a democratic outrage', an 'attack on the Scottish parliament' and Sturgeon was heading all guns blazing towards another 'inevitable' court battle. Now that the queen bee's reign is over and we're back on a wheesht for indy footing it's suddenly move along, nothing to see here.

Why would the UK government be remotely bothered if it gets binned? It's the best place for it and it's only the SG who are left looking daft.

No chance the Greens will simply nod through the bill's abandonment incidentally.

[Glory Lurker]

Until yesterday this was 'a democratic outrage', an 'attack on the Scottish parliament' and Sturgeon was heading all guns blazing towards another 'inevitable' court battle. Now that the queen bee's reign is over and we're back on a wheesht for indy footing it's suddenly move along, nothing to see here.

Why would the UK government be remotely bothered if it gets binned? It's the best place for it and it's only the SG who are left looking daft.

No chance the Greens will simply nod through the bill's abandonment incidentally.

What about Labour and the Lib Dems?

[Ozyhibby]

Until yesterday this was 'a democratic outrage', an 'attack on the Scottish parliament' and Sturgeon was heading all guns blazing towards another 'inevitable' court battle. Now that the queen bee's reign is over and we're back on a wheesht for indy footing it's suddenly move along, nothing to see here.

Why would the UK government be remotely bothered if it gets binned? It's the best place for it and it's only the SG who are left looking daft.

No chance the Greens will simply nod through the bill's abandonment incidentally.

My opinion has not changed one little bit. An issue I would not have wasted any political capital on. It remains undemocratic that the UK govt stopped it and I would leave it that way.
Eventually England will bring in these changes and Scotland will be one of the only countries in Europe not to have reformed. Leave it on the UK govts desk. Eventually they will lift the s35.
What can the greens complain about? The bill was passed by the parliament. The SNP kept its side of the deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[147lothian]

It’s not going to happen now. I doubt the new FM, whoever it is, goes anywhere near this issue. It will be left as it is just now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The new FM won't go anywhere near it because when when voices within Sturgeon's own party warned that the gender-reform bill was flawed, she dismissed their concerns as 'not relevant'. Indeed, as disquiet about gender self-identification grew in volume, Sturgeon doubled down. Rather than reflecting or listening, the first minister smeared the bill's opponents as 'transphobic, misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well'.

[He's here!]

What about Labour and the Lib Dems?

They've gone into hiding since the Bryson case lest anyone asks then whether a double rapist can be a woman. It's the Greens who insisted this bill took priority in the new parliamentary term.

[He's here!]

The new FM won't go anywhere near it because when when voices within Sturgeon's own party warned that the gender-reform bill was flawed, she dismissed their concerns as 'not relevant'. Indeed, as disquiet about gender self-identification grew in volume, Sturgeon doubled down. Rather than reflecting or listening, the first minister smeared the bill's opponents as 'transphobic, misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well'.

...and paid a heavy price for her blinkered stance.

[Glory Lurker]

They've gone into hiding since the Bryson case lest anyone asks then whether a double rapist can be a woman. It's the Greens who insisted this bill took priority in the new parliamentary term.

The issue was more what prison. Under the current law. But it was a chance to conflate with the Holyrood bill to try to make political capital. Headlines of "Trans Butcher". Forget about how that marginalises the already marginalised. It's all about getting Nicola.

[Santa Cruz]

...and paid a heavy price for her blinkered stance.

It wasn't just this one issue according to last weeks poll (other Leaders public ratings included also) Realise this could have been posted on other threads but worth pointing out seeing as her resignation is being linked solely to GRR.


https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-perceptions-nicola-sturgeon-dip-while-over-half-scots-are-critical-scottish-government

[Ozyhibby]

It wasn't just this one issue according to last weeks poll (other Leaders public ratings included also) Realise this could have been posted on other threads but worth pointing out seeing as her resignation is being linked solely to GRR.


https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-perceptions-nicola-sturgeon-dip-while-over-half-scots-are-critical-scottish-government

I don’t think it’s down to GRR at all. I think she could have weathered that storm no problem. I think the de-facto referendum was a much bigger factor. And she admitted as much in her speech. I think she realised she was taking the party down a path they did not want to go and which she also didn’t really believe in. She had boxed herself in and it was difficult to see a way out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

https://archive.is/8OejY

Mike Russell insisting the s35 issue should still go to court and that Sturgeon's strategies should be maintained 'not trashed'.

Bearing in mind Ash Regan looks set to run for leader could he be trying to scupper her bid? The new leader will be elected just in time to beat the April deadline for court action.

[He's here!]

It wasn't just this one issue according to last weeks poll (other Leaders public ratings included also) Realise this could have been posted on other threads but worth pointing out seeing as her resignation is being linked solely to GRR.


https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-perceptions-nicola-sturgeon-dip-while-over-half-scots-are-critical-scottish-government

https://archive.is/d3AUK

'She made the mistake of ignoring women. It was her failure to be able to say whether a rapist was a man which turned it in the end. If you can't say that how can anyone believe a word that comes out of your mouth?'

[James310]

Lorna Slater saying the GRA was a must have as part of the SNP/Green coalition, so if dropped then I suspect it's the end of that coalition. The SNP must look back on regret with that deal, it's been a disaster for them being held hostage to a fringe group of extremists.

[Glory Lurker]

Lorna Slater saying the GRA was a must have as part of the SNP/Green coalition, so if dropped then I suspect it's the end of that coalition. The SNP must look back on regret with that deal, it's been a disaster for them being held hostage to a fringe group of extremists.

What, like Labour and the Lib Dems?

[Glory Lurker]

Could everyone in here against the GRA post their support for trans people, please?

[James310]

What, like Labour and the Lib Dems?

They didn't do any deal with the SNP? I am talking about the coalition deal.

[Glory Lurker]

They didn't do any deal with the SNP? I am talking about the coalition deal.

I was just talking about other parties that voted for it.

[James310]

I was just talking about other parties that voted for it.

Ok but I wasn't, I was saying I expect the SNP/Green coalition to collapse if the SNP decide to drop the court challenge.

Although not sure how many times I heard how they would would win as it never impacted UK laws, so an odd decision.

[Glory Lurker]

Ok but I wasn't, I was saying I expect the SNP/Green coalition to collapse if the SNP decide to drop the court challenge.

Although not sure how many times I heard how they would would win as it never impacted UK laws, so an odd decision.

Well if the pact collapses then it will be a minority government again. SNP propose FM to Scottish Parliament. Unlike WM there is actually a vote. We're outnumbered. I'd say failure of the Parliament to elect am FM of any hue calls for an election (no idea if that's the rules, though). Thoroughly democratic.

[147lothian]

Lorna Slater saying the GRA was a must have as part of the SNP/Green coalition, so if dropped then I suspect it's the end of that coalition. The SNP must look back on regret with that deal, it's been a disaster for them being held hostage to a fringe group of extremists.

Exactly this, the recent disasters in The SNP all have a green source behind them, the greens have gone into government they don't like roads or building roads. The A9 promise is reneged upon which is huge in the Highland's. The GRA the failure to accept very reasonable amendments can only be explained by green pressure. The bottle return scheme, out of control under a green minister, the green tail has been wagging The SNP dog much to the detriment of government.

If you want another example of green extremism, it's not so long since the greens were accusing The SNP of transphobia.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/green-councillors-brand-snp-as-transphobic-in-letter-on-government-talks-3284279

[Stairway 2 7]

I don’t think it’s down to GRR at all. I think she could have weathered that storm no problem. I think the de-facto referendum was a much bigger factor. And she admitted as much in her speech. I think she realised she was taking the party down a path they did not want to go and which she also didn’t really believe in. She had boxed herself in and it was difficult to see a way out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Must be a combination. There can be no denying the drop in the polls for both her personally and independence was due to it. It was too sharp and sudden to be anything else. She's usually so composed but I've never seen her as speechless as trying to defend Bryson in parliament. I think she was done like a kipper to be honest. Wish she'd stayed and the loons at the greens took the brunt

[Stairway 2 7]

Could everyone in here against the GRA post their support for trans people, please?

It's a really silly question, the two aren't linked as much as people crave them to be.

There's is undoubtedly a percentage of **** bags that are just anti trans in the uk. But when the public are polled it's in the high 90% that won't all rights for trans people bar a couple of caveats that don't detract for hard won women's rights.

If they added a few ammendments (like they already have with prisons) this would have been over months ago and out the news. I'm not against quicker GRA or lower age limits if a safe spaces ect were maintained. Thankfully most trans rights are already enshrined in law, the GRA doesn't actually change that much

[CropleyWasGod]

This might interest some:-

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/633194

[Moulin Yarns]

Exactly this, the recent disasters in The SNP all have a green source behind them, the greens have gone into government they don't like roads or building roads. The A9 promise is reneged upon which is huge in the Highland's. The GRA the failure to accept very reasonable amendments can only be explained by green pressure. The bottle return scheme, out of control under a green minister, the green tail has been wagging The SNP dog much to the detriment of government.

If you want another example of green extremism, it's not so long since the greens were accusing The SNP of transphobia.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/green-councillors-brand-snp-as-transphobic-in-letter-on-government-talks-3284279

I've posted elsewhere that the A9 is still being upgraded, I had personal involvement in decision making on the proposed routes of the sections between Perth and Drumochter. It's just taking longer than originally planned.

[Stairway 2 7]

This might interest some:-

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/633194

Not sure how any right minded person would object to that

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure how any right minded person would object to that

The right minded aren’t the concern.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Must be a combination. There can be no denying the drop in the polls for both her personally and independence was due to it. It was too sharp and sudden to be anything else. She's usually so composed but I've never seen her as speechless as trying to defend Bryson in parliament. I think she was done like a kipper to be honest. Wish she'd stayed and the loons at the greens took the brunt

Exactly this. What on paper might have struck most as a peripheral issue was so badly handled by Sturgeon that it's ended up playing a significant role in her downfall. It wasn't a here today gone tomorrow crisis as she tried to claim either. Those who could see the dangers inherent in the bill had been campaigning against it for years. By turning a deaf ear to all concerns and loading the bases with lobby groups aligned only to her own views she laid the foundations for the humiliation which followed.

[James310]

Exactly this. What on paper might have struck most as a peripheral issue was so badly handled by Sturgeon that it's ended up playing a significant role in her downfall. It wasn't a here today gone tomorrow crisis as she tried to claim either. Those who could see the dangers inherent in the bill had been campaigning against it for years. By turning a deaf ear to all concerns and loading the bases with lobby groups aligned only to her own views she laid the foundations for the humiliation which followed.

There were even a few posters on here saying back in 2019 this was going to cause splits in the SNP and cause issues. They were as usual dismissed as scaremongering. Funny old world.

People were laughing at Sturgeon and Gilruth when they could not answer those questions, when people start openly laughing at you then you are finished.

I wonder if a few weeks on the information they were after is now available and they could now answer.

[Crunchie]

There were even a few posters on here saying back in 2019 this was going to cause splits in the SNP and cause issues. They were as usual dismissed as scaremongering. Funny old world.

People were laughing at Sturgeon and Gilruth when they could not answer those questions, when people start openly laughing at you then you are finished.

I wonder if a few weeks on the information they were after is now available and they could now answer.
Her pedestal grew so high she was bound to fall off at some point. As you say when people start laughing at you, as they did with Boris, your time's up.

[147lothian]

There were even a few posters on here saying back in 2019 this was going to cause splits in the SNP and cause issues. They were as usual dismissed as scaremongering. Funny old world.

People were laughing at Sturgeon and Gilruth when they could not answer those questions, when people start openly laughing at you then you are finished.

I wonder if a few weeks on the information they were after is now available and they could now answer.

For me the BBC Question Time team have to be commended for putting on the trans debate. Up to this point the BBC were over cautious about talking about it, this debate showed that when put to the test gender ideology just doesn't stand up to scrutiny, the audience at Kelvin Hall were laughing at Jenny Gilruth SNP MSP when she tied herself in knots.

Nicola Sturgeon also could be seen doing mental gymnastics trying to explain gender Self-ID regarding a rapist being sent to a woman only prison. Questions need to be asked now about Nicola Sturgeon's style of leadership, because if she had only listened to the nine members of her own party that broke the whip and proposed very reasonable amendments to the GRA she wouldn't be in the this position now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0cbQY0PKv4

[He's here!]

For me the BBC Question Time team have to be commended for putting on the trans debate. Up to this point the BBC were over cautious about talking about it, this debate showed that when put to the test gender ideology just doesn't stand up to scrutiny, the audience at Kelvin Hall were laughing at Jenny Gilruth SNP MSP when she tied herself in knots.

Nicola Sturgeon also could be seen doing mental gymnastics trying to explain gender Self-ID regarding a rapist being sent to a woman only prison. Questions need to be asked now about Nicola Sturgeon's style of leadership, because if she had only listened to the nine members of her own party that broke the whip and proposed very reasonable amendments to the GRA she wouldn't be in the this position now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0cbQY0PKv4

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/nicola-sturgeon-ruled-snp-in-quasi-dictatorial-manner-and-her-resignation-leaves-scottish-independence-movement-adrift-stuart-crawford-4029812

'Quasi dictator' according to one of her former ministers.

[LewysGot2]

Exactly this. What on paper might have struck most as a peripheral issue was so badly handled by Sturgeon that it's ended up playing a significant role in her downfall. It wasn't a here today gone tomorrow crisis as she tried to claim either. Those who could see the dangers inherent in the bill had been campaigning against it for years. By turning a deaf ear to all concerns and loading the bases with lobby groups aligned only to her own views she laid the foundations for the humiliation which followed.

I wonder how much the position she took on it was influenced by Joanna Cherry being in the other canp with regards tomany of the concerns being raised. One thing can be in no doubt neither of them cared for each other - a 2 way street where not so thinly veiled barbs or, in the case of Sturgeon, ignoring the threats against Cherry's life/,wellbeing whilst very vocally condemning similar threats to those in her camp. Cherry has not given any stepping down words of thanks to her adversary. Clearly a wedge as driven as the one between Sturgeon and Salmond.

The other thing is all political careers of note end in some manner of loss - an election, public opinion, party maneouvering to satisfy ambition. There has been a pretty tight grip on dissent in the last 8 years, party controlled by Sturgeon and Murrell aided by people close to them, many also in relationships. However, that was never going to hold forever - especially if those "wheeshting for indy" didnt feel progress was being made.

There's a lot to come out I suspect over the coming months and weeks...

[CropleyWasGod]

The right minded aren’t the concern.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Qed

[McD]

I've posted elsewhere that the A9 is still being upgraded, I had personal involvement in decision making on the proposed routes of the sections between Perth and Drumochter. It's just taking longer than originally planned.


wasn’t there an SNP MSP criticising the party last week as a section of it won’t be getting done, after commitments were made to doing it all?

[Moulin Yarns]

wasn’t there an SNP MSP criticising the party last week as a section of it won’t be getting done, after commitments were made to doing it all?

Fergus ewing, former MSP, but the news was about a contract only having one bid and the delay in delivering the dualling. I can only think of 1 section that might not be built, the Birnam section is an engineering nightmare and there is opposition to the killiecrankie section as it impacts the battlefield.

[McD]

Fergus ewing, former MSP, but the news was about a contract only having one bid and the delay in delivering the dualling. I can only think of 1 section that might not be built, the Birnam section is an engineering nightmare and there is opposition to the killiecrankie section as it impacts the battlefield.


thank you :aok:

I think I must have got it a bit wrong, I thought he was saying that section wasn’t going ahead (something about the 1 bid not being cost effective or something along those lines)

[He's here!]

Agreed on that.

Edit. Just re-read the Sun piece. The headline is "Trans butcher charged...". The T word is unnecessary IMO, and only serves to help demonise an already marginalised community. Imagine if they had been described as gay, Muslim or (heaven forfend) cis.

Now been charged with sexual assault. The Record are running with 'man' in the headline but 'transgender butcher' in the opening paragraph.

[CropleyWasGod]

Now been charged with sexual assault. The Record are running with 'man' in the headline but 'transgender butcher' in the opening paragraph.

Still unnecessary

[hibsbollah]

Some awful, scaremongering, deeply worrying headlines today.

This debate has been 90% conducted around prisons, self spaces, conflicting rights, TERF feminism vs open house feminism. Plus a healthy dose of rapery=trans. Toxic stuff. But very little debate anymore on anti trans prejudice. Inability to get jobs, street attacks, and so on.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/775589/Attitudes-equality-social-attitudes-survey-2017a.pdf

It seems like a solid 20% (that pesky group again) of UK men have ‘self identified’ in polling as having some anti trans prejudice. It’s a group that ‘dare not speak its name’ though. Certainly on here, everybody seems to be signed up to the idea that being trans is OK as a life choice, it’s merely the minutiae of the policy making that folk always claim to have an issue with. Is that accurate? I’ve got to say I don’t find that very likely. Anyone want to be brave and just come out with it that trans people make you feel uncomfortable? It would be weird if no one on here was part of this 20%, wouldn’t it?

[Stairway 2 7]

Still unnecessary

Aye really really shocking stuff it has no relevance to his horrific crimes. Poor girl, **** knows why the police said she was safe and well if she was raped, brutal

[The Harp Awakes]

Some awful, scaremongering, deeply worrying headlines today.

This debate has been 90% conducted around prisons, self spaces, conflicting rights, TERF feminism vs open house feminism. Plus a healthy dose of rapery=trans. Toxic stuff. But very little debate anymore on anti trans prejudice. Inability to get jobs, street attacks, and so on.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/775589/Attitudes-equality-social-attitudes-survey-2017a.pdf

It seems like a solid 20% (that pesky group again) of UK men have ‘self identified’ in polling as having some anti trans prejudice. It’s a group that ‘dare not speak its name’ though. Certainly on here, everybody seems to be signed up to the idea that being trans is OK as a life choice, it’s merely the minutiae of the policy making that folk always claim to have an issue with. Is that accurate? I’ve got to say I don’t find that very likely. Anyone want to be brave and just come out with it that trans people make you feel uncomfortable? It would be weird if no one on here was part of this 20%, wouldn’t it?

When the GRA was passed, I have to say I was unsure about it. I worried about the women's rights angle.

After the aftermath, which included that absolutely toxic discussion on BBC QT a few weeks back, I'm convinced that passing the GRA was absolutely the right thing to do.

The blocking of the Act by the Westminster Government, whether international or not, has given the green light to transphobes to spout their vile prejudice.

The furore over the prisoner was completely irrelevant to the passing of the Act.

[archie]

Some awful, scaremongering, deeply worrying headlines today.

This debate has been 90% conducted around prisons, self spaces, conflicting rights, TERF feminism vs open house feminism. Plus a healthy dose of rapery=trans. Toxic stuff. But very little debate anymore on anti trans prejudice. Inability to get jobs, street attacks, and so on.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/775589/Attitudes-equality-social-attitudes-survey-2017a.pdf

It seems like a solid 20% (that pesky group again) of UK men have ‘self identified’ in polling as having some anti trans prejudice. It’s a group that ‘dare not speak its name’ though. Certainly on here, everybody seems to be signed up to the idea that being trans is OK as a life choice, it’s merely the minutiae of the policy making that folk always claim to have an issue with. Is that accurate? I’ve got to say I don’t find that very likely. Anyone want to be brave and just come out with it that trans people make you feel uncomfortable? It would be weird if no one on here was part of this 20%, wouldn’t it?
I have said many times on here that one of the key issues is the extrordinarily broad definition of trans. I genuinely think that the vast majority of people don't have a problem with people who transition. I think the issue for people is where people live as the opposite sex but only socially transition, but wish to access spaces and services which is seen as encroaching on others rights. The FM referered to people not being 'legitimately trans' - I think that was the phrase. How do you determine that?

[Moulin Yarns]

Still unnecessary

The local border media has him as a cross dressing transvestite. As he was using 2 profiles on social media I would be inclined to believe the local press than the record!

[He's here!]

Aye really really shocking stuff it has no relevance to his horrific crimes. Poor girl, **** knows why the police said she was safe and well if she was raped, brutal

Yes, 'found safe and well' was the what they said...neither was true by the sounds of it.

[Glory Lurker]

When the GRA was passed, I have to say I was unsure about it. I worried about the women's rights angle.

After the aftermath, which included that absolutely toxic discussion on BBC QT a few weeks back, I'm convinced that passing the GRA was absolutely the right thing to do.

The blocking of the Act by the Westminster Government, whether international or not, has given the green light to transphobes to spout their vile prejudice.

The furore over the prisoner was completely irrelevant to the passing of the Act.

Exactly. This thread has mirrored the MSM in paying lip service to sympathy for trans folk. They're collateral damage in the hunt for the SNP.

[CropleyWasGod]

The local border media has him as a cross dressing transvestite. As he was using 2 profiles on social media I would be inclined to believe the local press than the record!

Still unnecessary IMO. Just puts a target on the back of people with "other" lifestyles.

[McD]

Still unnecessary IMO. Just puts a target on the back of people with "other" lifestyles.


:agree: If the attacker was black, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, white, Asian, etc, it wouldn’t be mentioned

[archie]

Exactly. This thread has mirrored the MSM in paying lip service to sympathy for trans folk. They're collateral damage in the hunt for the SNP. I think people have the right to live their life as they choose. But surely you acknowledge that there is a legitimate discussion about how living that life impacts on others? As for the 'hunt for the SNP' comment, the constitution is not the only prism that people can view issues through. A number of SNP supporters are very concerned about the issue. Are they anti SNP too?

[James310]

Exactly. This thread has mirrored the MSM in paying lip service to sympathy for trans folk. They're collateral damage in the hunt for the SNP.

If Kate Forbes becomes the SNP leader and as expected she drops the Bill does the SNP leader become anti SNP? That's wild.

[Since90+2]

If Kate Forbes becomes the SNP leader and as expected she drops the Bill does the SNP leader become anti SNP? That's wild.

You clearly don't understand the Holyrood system. The FM, whether that be the Kate Forbes or not, does not have the unilateral power to drop any bill.

[James310]

You clearly don't understand the Holyrood system. The FM, whether that be the Kate Forbes or not, does not have the unilateral power to drop any bill.

She just drops the court action, who can stop her when she becomes FM?

[Since90+2]

She just drops the court action, who can stop her when she becomes FM?

And you think the bill then just disappears into thin air does it? It would be returned to Holyrood to face amendments.

Kate Forbes, if elected as FM, would not have the power to simply drop the bill. You don't understand how the parliamentary system works.

[James310]

And you think the bill then just disappears into thin air does it? It would be returned to Holyrood to face amendments.

Kate Forbes, if elected as FM, would not have the power to simply drop the bill. You don't understand how the parliamentary system works.

Not sure you do, the UN Children's Rights Bill is still waiting on a shelf and will I guess never see the light of day again. The GRA will go the same way.

Anyway I thought SNP voters now supported dropping it as it was too much hassle. Don't touch minorities was the line.

[Since90+2]

Not sure you do, the UN Children's Rights Bill is still waiting on a shelf and will I guess never see the light of day again. The GRA will go the same way.

Anyway I thought SNP voters now supported dropping it as it was too much hassle. Don't touch minorities was the line.

I've no idea what SNP voters think of it, I don't particularly care either to be quite honest. I'm just pointing out the inaccuracies in your earlier claim.

[archie]

I've no idea what SNP voters think of it, I don't particularly care either to be quite honest. I'm just pointing out the inaccuracies in your earlier claim.What do you think happens to legislation after it passes stage 3?

[He's here!]

She just drops the court action, who can stop her when she becomes FM?

If Forbes were to be elected I imagine she'd just let the April deadline for court action slide. She could have voted against the bill remotely while on maternity leave but opted not to vote at all. She certainly wouldn't want the debate on a bill she disagrees with on religious grounds to be reignited in the opening weeks of her taking on the FM role. It would mean a showdown with the Greens but there will be plenty in her party who would be happy to ditch that toxic partnership.

There certainly seems to have been a sea change of opinion on the bill since Sturgeon's downfall. From the s35 being loudly declaimed as an outrageous attack on democracy there's barely a peep about it now as we return to a wheesht for indy footing.

[Ozyhibby]

You clearly don't understand the Holyrood system. The FM, whether that be the Kate Forbes or not, does not have the unilateral power to drop any bill.

The bill has already passed. It’s up to the UK govt now. I’d leave it with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[147lothian]

If Kate Forbes becomes the SNP leader and as expected she drops the Bill does the SNP leader become anti SNP? That's wild.

Kate Forbes was one of 15 SNP politician's that signed a letter back in 2019 calling for the SG not to "rush" into legislation that could change the definition of what it means to be male or female. Then we have 9 SNP MSP's who defy the party whip and vote against the GRRB.

Nicola Sturgeon brushes all the legitimate concerns about Gender Self-ID from within her own party aside saying they are "not valid" and told no-one within the inner echelons of the SNP that it was her intention to resign, no succession planning, this can only be described as narcissistic behavior. It speaks volumes of what her style of leadership must have been like.

[CropleyWasGod]

The bill has already passed. It’s up to the UK govt now. I’d leave it with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They can use it as a template for their own legislation:)

[archie]

The bill has already passed. It’s up to the UK govt now. I’d leave it with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Except what will UKG have to do? The pressing issue is the judicial review, which is time limited. What do you think happens if neither side does anything more?

[archie]

They can use it as a template for their own legislation:)

I think all Westminster politicians will have been watching very closely.

[Glory Lurker]

I think people have the right to live their life as they choose. But surely you acknowledge that there is a legitimate discussion about how living that life impacts on others? As for the 'hunt for the SNP' comment, the constitution is not the only prism that people can view issues through. A number of SNP supporters are very concerned about the issue. Are they anti SNP too?

Legitimate discussion, of course. Stirring in "trans butcher" type stuff, no. All done by the anti-SNP MSM for political gain.

Different matter completely to SNP members objecting or even leaving.

[Ozyhibby]

Except what will UKG have to do? The pressing issue is the judicial review, which is time limited. What do you think happens if neither side does anything more?

Nothing happens. It doesn’t go for royal assent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Since90+2]

Nothing happens. It doesn’t go for royal assent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IMO it will eventually passed, but with the bill being watered down with amendments.

[Ozyhibby]

IMO it will eventually passed, but with the bill being watered down with amendments.

It’s been passed already. The Scottish parly can’t just keep debating the same issue over and over again hoping the uk govt won’t stop it. The uk govt are not engaging on the issue either so it’s stuck really. There are other issues to be going on with in Scotland. No more parliamentary time should be allocated to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Since90+2]

It’s been passed already. The Scottish parly can’t just keep debating the same issue over and over again hoping the uk govt won’t stop it. The uk govt are not engaging on the issue either so it’s stuck really. There are other issues to be going on with in Scotland. No more parliamentary time should be allocated to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its been passed but if the UK government continue to block it, which they will, it will either be returned to Holyrood and then passed with amendments or completely dumped. IMO the former is more likely than the latter.

[He's here!]

Its been passed but if the UK government continue to block it, which they will, it will either be returned to Holyrood and then passed with amendments or completely dumped. IMO the former is more likely than the latter.

I thought you said it couldn't just be dumped?

[Since90+2]

I thought you said it couldn't just be dumped?

No, I never. Please read the thread correctly before commenting, save us both a bit of time.

I said Kate Forbes, if elected FM, would not be able to unilaterally get rid of it.

Hint - the key word is unilaterally.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/markmcgeoghegan/status/1627099877137154048?s=46&t=M9Lf_okQoOIGi8b42zNGuQ

Why new SNP leader should leave this issue where it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glory Lurker]

https://twitter.com/markmcgeoghegan/status/1627099877137154048?s=46&t=M9Lf_okQoOIGi8b42zNGuQ

Why new SNP leader should leave this issue where it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Amazing that it's had the impact it's had at all, when you look at those figures.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/markmcgeoghegan/status/1627099877137154048?s=46&t=M9Lf_okQoOIGi8b42zNGuQ

Why new SNP leader should leave this issue where it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The cost of living and the NHS is by far the most important thing to voters, but they think independence and GRA are by far the two things SNP are interested in with the NHS and cost of living much further back.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Iain_L/status/1626999201757364225

Could do with an economically astute leader next

[He's here!]

Amazing that it's had the impact it's had at all, when you look at those figures.

Solely down to Sturgeon's intransigence. Turned out, as Rowling predicted, to be her Poll Tax.

She's left them stuck between a rock and a hard place on this, whichever way they turn.

[Glory Lurker]

Solely down to Sturgeon's intransigence. Turned out, as Rowling predicted, to be her Poll Tax.

She's left them stuck between a rock and a hard place on this, whichever way they turn.

Not that anyone really cares, going by those figures though

[Stairway 2 7]

Not that anyone really cares, going by those figures though

They think the government cares much more about it compared to the NHS or cost of living though, going by the other figures.

[Glory Lurker]

They think the government cares much more about it compared to the NHS or cost of living though, going by the other figures.

All good now it's in the Royal Assent long grass.

[James310]

All good now it's in the Royal Assent long grass.

Why? Weren't you outraged only a few weeks ago when the UK Government blocked it. What's changed your mind?

[Stairway 2 7]

All good now it's in the Royal Assent long grass.

Is it not going to court though

[Glory Lurker]

Why? Weren't you outraged only a few weeks ago when the UK Government blocked it. What's changed your mind?

I think I questioned how devolution could function properly if action was taken against bills just because they might have an impact outside Scotland. I don't think I focused on the substance of this bill. As I've said often enough I don't know the detail of it so I'd be surprised if I made a case for it the way you are saying.

[Glory Lurker]

Is it not going to court though

I don't know. Who is the next FM and what are they going to decide?

[James310]

I think I questioned how devolution could function properly if action was taken against bills just because they might have an impact outside Scotland.

So devolution should mean the Scottish Parliament has powers to change laws impacting the rest of the UK?

This is a great example of devolution working as it should.

[Glory Lurker]

So devolution should mean the Scottish Parliament has powers to change laws impacting the rest of the UK?

This is a great example of devolution working as it should.

All fair enough. I wasn't outraged, nor have I had a change of view on the treatment of the bill though. :-)

[He's here!]

I don't know. Who is the next FM and what are they going to decide?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64695290

Seems to be a range of views on what should happen to it. Still, axmccording to the National it's 'Onwards and Upwards!'

[147lothian]

Wait until you get on Ze & Zir

This is gender ideology, which is a pseudoscience, the belief with gender ideology is that if you can change language you can change reality, so instead of calling sex, sex they call it gender and suddenly there are about 150 different genders, it's, woo woo politics, the make believe, hocus-pocus world of "I identify as" which as we have seen with the way that such a good communicator as Nicola Sturgeon was reduced to looking like a blabbering fool, can obviously be exploited by bad actors, if it's taken serious.

[CropleyWasGod]

This is gender ideology, which is a pseudoscience, the belief with gender ideology is that if you can change language you can change reality, so instead of calling sex, sex they call it gender and suddenly there are about 150 different genders, it's, woo woo politics, the make believe, hocus-pocus world of "I identify as" which as we have seen with the way that such a good communicator as Nicola Sturgeon was reduced to looking like a blabbering fool, can obviously be exploited by bad actors, if it's taken serious.

It's not. :greengrin

Those pronouns are used as an alternative to they/them. That's all.

[Santa Cruz]

It's not. :greengrin

Those pronouns are used as an alternative to they/them. That's all.

This is an area I don't understand. I see pronouns added to emails. I'm just looking for a reply, so what relevance is it that I know what the person would like to identify as who I'll never meet or even have any further communication with? Why do I need to know this and why does the person want me to know this?

[CropleyWasGod]

This is an area I don't understand. I see pronouns added to emails. I'm just looking for a reply, so what relevance is it that I know what the person would like to identify as who I'll never meet or even have any further communication with? Why do I need to know this and why does the person want me to know this?

For many, the signatures are standard, so they're on every email.

On the broader question, for me it's along the lines of the Mrs/Miss/Ms labelling from a generation ago. That was important to some, not so to others. Similarly with pronouns. If that person wants to be called "Ms." or "them", it's basic courtesy to use that.

There's also the argument that the use of appropriate pronouns is encouragement for those who struggle with their gender identity, and need strong role models.

[Santa Cruz]

For many, the signatures are standard, so they're on every email.

On the broader question, for me it's along the lines of the Mrs/Miss/Ms labelling from a generation ago. That was important to some, not so to others. Similarly with pronouns. If that person wants to be called "Ms." or "them", it's basic courtesy to use that.

There's also the argument that the use of appropriate pronouns is encouragement for those who struggle with their gender identity, and need strong role models.

Thanks. So the email contains their name (just a first name and surname, no title), then the pronouns are added below. If I was responding would the person expect me to use their first name. I know this sounds stupid, I just don't see where I'm inserting "they/them".

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks. So the email contains their name (just a first name and surname, no title), then the pronouns are added below. If I was responding would the person expect me to use their first name. I know this sounds stupid, I just don't see where I'm inserting "they/them".

You don't need to. "Dear Jackie" seems to be fine these days :greengrin

However, as an example, if you had to take the matter further (maybe a complaint), and you had to speak to or email a supervisor about that person's behaviour, you would use whatever pronoun they preferred.

[Santa Cruz]

You don't need to. "Dear Jackie" seems to be fine these days :greengrin

However, as an example, if you had to take the matter further (maybe a complaint), and you had to speak to or email a supervisor about that person's behaviour, you would use whatever pronoun they preferred.

:aok:

[archie]

You don't need to. "Dear Jackie" seems to be fine these days :greengrin

However, as an example, if you had to take the matter further (maybe a complaint), and you had to speak to or email a supervisor about that person's behaviour, you would use whatever pronoun they preferred.So let me get this right, putting pronouns in e mails is to make it easier to have complaints made about you?!!!

[147lothian]

It's not. :greengrin

Those pronouns are used as an alternative to they/them. That's all.

Are you talking about more than one person? They/Them is plural you can't call an individual person They/Them it makes no sense in English grammar.

[CropleyWasGod]

So let me get this right, putting pronouns in e mails is to make it easier to have complaints made about you?!!!

Nowhere near what I said :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Are you talking about more than one person? They/Them is plural you can't call an individual person They/Them it makes no sense in English grammar.

If that's what they want....

[archie]

Nowhere near what I said :greengrin
Just checking as I wasn't sure it was the best way to secure buy in...

[McD]

Are you talking about more than one person? They/Them is plural you can't call an individual person They/Them it makes no sense in English grammar.


they/them is often used by individuals who don’t identify as female (she/her) or male (he/him)

[Since90+2]

For many, the signatures are standard, so they're on every email.

On the broader question, for me it's along the lines of the Mrs/Miss/Ms labelling from a generation ago. That was important to some, not so to others. Similarly with pronouns. If that person wants to be called "Ms." or "them", it's basic courtesy to use that.

There's also the argument that the use of appropriate pronouns is encouragement for those who struggle with their gender identity, and need strong role models.

It would suggested at my place of work (legal industry) that it should be mandatory. One of the responses to this was that it would then mandate people to make a declaration of this kind at work, even if they aren't comfortable doing so, and it has no relevance to their ability to do the role.

No effective counter argument was put forward and the proposal was dropped.

[CropleyWasGod]

It would suggested at my place of work (legal industry) that it should be mandatory. One of the responses to this was that it would then mandate people to make a declaration of this kind at work, even if they aren't comfortable doing so, and it has no relevance to their ability to do the role.

No effective counter argument was put forward and the proposal was dropped.

Seems fair to me. Just like the Ms thing, it should be a personal choice IMO. But a respected choice.

[The Tubs]

Are you talking about more than one person? They/Them is plural you can't call an individual person They/Them it makes no sense in English grammar.

Someone stole my bicycle yesterday. They took it around 10pm.

From the Oxford dictionary:

The word they (with its counterparts them, their, and themselves) as a singular pronoun to refer to a person of unspecified gender has been used since at least the 14th century. In the late 20th century, as the traditional use of he to refer to a person of either gender came under scrutiny on the grounds of sexism, this use of theybecame more common. It is now generally accepted in contexts where it follows an indefinite pronoun such as anyone, no one, someone, or a person, as in anyone can join if they are a resident and each to their own. In other contexts, coming after singular nouns, the use of they is now common, though less widely accepted, especially in formal contexts. Sentences such as ask a friend if they could help are still criticized for being ungrammatical. Nevertheless, in view of the growing acceptance of theyand its obvious practical advantages, they is used in this dictionary in many cases where he would have been used formerly. In a more recent development, they is now being used to refer to specific individuals (as in Alex is bringing their laptop). Like the gender-neutral honorific Mx1 (https://www.hibs.net/r:m_en_gbus0673980:com.apple.dictionary.ODE:Mx), the singular they is preferred by some individuals who identify as neither male nor female. See also he (https://www.hibs.net/r:m_en_gbus0455670:com.apple.dictionary.ODE:he)and she (https://www.hibs.net/r:m_en_gbus0933280:com.apple.dictionary.ODE:she).

[Moulin Yarns]

they/them is often used by individuals who don’t identify as female (she/her) or male (he/him)

I understand what Cropley was God said, 'they' express themselves very well. 😁

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64695227

Freeman 'would not have supported bill'.

[neil7908]

Are you talking about more than one person? They/Them is plural you can't call an individual person They/Them it makes no sense in English grammar.

It's crazy right? It's almost like language changes and evolves over time! Or should we all be speaking like we're in MacBeth? Should we start a campaign for gay to solely to used to describe a happy person?

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64695227

Freeman 'would not have supported bill'.

That well known far right politician Jeane Freeman? Actually didn't she used to be in the Communist party?

[He's here!]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d2b9a870-b173-11ed-be6b-8488e113f360?shareToken=f998f8b7c51109675c929af54f a2b30e

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

[J-C]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

Saw this on GMB this morning, India Willoughby a transgenger broadcaster was all trans athletes to be treated as women, even though they have a big advantage genetically. Didn't want them to be treated differently but unfortunately sports for trans cannot be treated the same. Lia Thomas has just won US top college swimming title winning by just under 2 secs.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

Brilliant some common sense, hopefully spurs on other sporting bodies to do the same. There's simply a physical advantage ans it's unfair on women. Men's sport can be open category

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1638829266291793921

"You cannot come on my show and talk about how Labour want to tackle violence against women and then refer to a double rapist as 'she'!'

After the part the GRR shambles played in Sturgeon's downfall, it's little wonder Starmer has made it clear that "gender recognition will not be one of the priorities of the incoming Labour government."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/22/snp-wont-scalp-claimed-trans-ideology/

[Stairway 2 7]

Think the greens must be confident humza is winning as without the coalition they fall back to obscurity as a fringe party

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23409763.greens-will-quit-government-fm-fails-challenge-gender-law-veto/

Greens will quit government if FM fails to challenge gender law veto

[WhileTheChief..]

You don't need to. "Dear Jackie" seems to be fine these days :greengrin

However, as an example, if you had to take the matter further (maybe a complaint), and you had to speak to or email a supervisor about that person's behaviour, you would use whatever pronoun they preferred.

How do you address them instead of Mr or Mrs Blloggs?

As in, Dear "xxx" Bloggs ??

[He's here!]

Think the greens must be confident humza is winning as without the coalition they fall back to obscurity as a fringe party

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23409763.greens-will-quit-government-fm-fails-challenge-gender-law-veto/

Greens will quit government if FM fails to challenge gender law veto

That would be a major upside if Yousef doesn't end up winning.

[Paul1642]

Think the greens must be confident humza is winning as without the coalition they fall back to obscurity as a fringe party

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23409763.greens-will-quit-government-fm-fails-challenge-gender-law-veto/

Greens will quit government if FM fails to challenge gender law veto

Good riddance to them.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1638829266291793921

"You cannot come on my show and talk about how Labour want to tackle violence against women and then refer to a double rapist as 'she'!'

After the part the GRR shambles played in Sturgeon's downfall, it's little wonder Starmer has made it clear that "gender recognition will not be one of the priorities of the incoming Labour government."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/22/snp-wont-scalp-claimed-trans-ideology/

Horrible state of affairs when denying equal rights for a minority group gets votes.

[Stairway 2 7]

Horrible state of affairs when denying equal rights for a minority group gets votes.

Equal rights are not effected thanks to the equality act. Only thing that has changed recently is in athletics, but that is about preserving the rights of women

[007]

How do you address them instead of Mr or Mrs Blloggs?

As in, Dear "xxx" Bloggs ??

Or Dear XY Bloggs 🤔

[He's here!]

Equal rights are not effected thanks to the equality act. Only thing that has changed recently is in athletics, but that is about preserving the rights of women

ie maintaining women's sport as a meaningful entity. Sharron Davies is right to call for the ban to extend beyond international level.

[CropleyWasGod]

How do you address them instead of Mr or Mrs Blloggs?

As in, Dear "xxx" Bloggs ??

Just use their name?

[147lothian]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

Its good to see common sense in the world of athletics, the only way woman's sport can be a fair sport is if it's a protected category for biological women only, ie for people born female. The reason is simply because it's not possible to change your sex, no human being has ever changed their sex. A compromise could be an open category, so that trans people are not excluded from sport.

[Ozyhibby]

Its good to see common sense in the world of athletics, the only way woman's sport can be a fair sport is if it's a protected category for biological women only, ie for people born female. The reason is simply because it's not possible to change your sex, no human being has ever changed their sex. A compromise could be an open category, so that trans people are not excluded from sport.

Isn’t the men’s category an open category?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23416283.jk-rowling-criticises-snp-leader-humza-yousaf-gender-reform/

Yousaf will follow Sturgeon through the ice by persisting with the GRR according to Rowling.

She was spot on months ago about how damaging it would prove for Sturgeon.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23416283.jk-rowling-criticises-snp-leader-humza-yousaf-gender-reform/

Yousaf will follow Sturgeon through the ice by persisting with the GRR according to Rowling.

She was spot on months ago about how damaging it would prove for Sturgeon.
Her last two tweets ripping Yousaf have 6 million views and 50,000 likes between them already, numbers newspapers could only dream of. She's a very loud voice rightly or wrongly

@jk_rowling
·
@HumzaYousaf is the kid who just saw the skater in front of him disappear through the ice, but yells 'watch me, everybody!' while wobbling straight for the hole

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65181018

[WhileTheChief..]

Just use their name?

So on an official letter to someone, instead of addressing it "Dear Mrs Bloggs" we write "Dear Mary Bloggs"?

How do we differentiate between formal and informal when writing letters? Or are you saying we just scrap all that for trans people?

[JeMeSouviens]

So on an official letter to someone, instead of addressing it "Dear Mrs Bloggs" we write "Dear Mary Bloggs"?

How do we differentiate between formal and informal when writing letters? Or are you saying we just scrap all that for trans people?

Send an email and start it "Hi Mary" :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

So on an official letter to someone, instead of addressing it "Dear Mrs Bloggs" we write "Dear Mary Bloggs"?

How do we differentiate between formal and informal when writing letters? Or are you saying we just scrap all that for trans people?

Why not? It's fairly common these days, and nothing to do with trans issues. Language evolves, as do styles of letter writing.

[McSwanky]

So on an official letter to someone, instead of addressing it "Dear Mrs Bloggs" we write "Dear Mary Bloggs"?

How do we differentiate between formal and informal when writing letters? Or are you saying we just scrap all that for trans people?Official vs unofficial is a human construct that's dying out anyway, is it such a great loss?

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

[500miles]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65181018

This is fine as long as gender identity based rights are defined in a way that covers transphobia and transmisogyny.

They won't be though, because Tories just want culture war at the risk of a vulnerable minority.

[WhileTheChief..]

Official vs unofficial is a human construct that's dying out anyway, is it such a great loss?

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

I don't know what a human construct is but I think using proper language is important.

Same as dressing smart to go to work or on a night out or to a wedding. You don't have to, but it's still mostly the done thing.

I don't want my bank , or doctor, or anyone really, writing to me using txt speak for example.

We don't need to dumb everything down to the lowest level. Let's keep some standards in society!

[Crunchie]

I don't know what a human construct is but I think using proper language is important.

Same as dressing smart to go to work or on a night out or to a wedding. You don't have to, but it's still mostly the done thing.

I don't want my bank , or doctor, or anyone really, writing to me using txt speak for example.

We don't need to dumb everything down to the lowest level. Let's keep some standards in society!
Standards in society have long gone.

[CropleyWasGod]

This is fine as long as gender identity based rights are defined in a way that covers transphobia and transmisogyny.

They won't be though, because Tories just want culture war at the risk of a vulnerable minority.

I'd agree.

I'm not sure this has been thought through properly. An early observation is that , under these proposals, trans men would be allowed in female-only spaces.

Also, I've just read that the guidance includes the phrase "legally lesbian". Deary me.

[He's here!]

This is fine as long as gender identity based rights are defined in a way that covers transphobia and transmisogyny.

They won't be though, because Tories just want culture war at the risk of a vulnerable minority.

Labour are also backing the proposals.

[McSwanky]

I don't know what a human construct is but I think using proper language is important.

Same as dressing smart to go to work or on a night out or to a wedding. You don't have to, but it's still mostly the done thing.

I don't want my bank , or doctor, or anyone really, writing to me using txt speak for example.

We don't need to dumb everything down to the lowest level. Let's keep some standards in society!

A human construct is something that humans made up. No harm in questioning why we do something that we've always done is there?

It's not the same as dressing smart to go to work etc though, is it? You could just use the person's first name and keep the rest of the language the same.

Your comment on 'txt speak' is just hyperbole. Although sometimes I think doctors might benefit from a plain English course!

I agree with you on the last point, we don't need to dumb things down to the lowest level. But that's not really what were talking about here, it's it?

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk