The Trans Rights Debate

[Stairway 2 7]

A prisoner can be kept in the same wing, but still be kept isolated. They're given a different schedule from the other prisoners in order to avoid potentially problematic situations.

Prisons are not some free for all like they're depicted in the movies.

I know about Ross Hall in Cornton Vale. She will not be isolated. They don't have schedules that keep them separated, there is barely the staff just now to keep it functioning

[He's here!]

Sex offenders don't mix with the general population of prisoners for very obvious reasons. Male, female, transgender.... etc. It makes no difference. The same applies regardless.

It's easy just to point out overly simplistic pieces of information such as "male transgender gets sent to female prison", without any additional context applied in order to put those "thoughts" into people's heads. The right wing media excels when it comes to deliberately vague narratives.

What's remotely vague about the narrative? This is the first time a trans-woman has been convicted of raping women in Scotland. 'She' has been sent to a women's prison which has, understandably, sparked a great deal of controversy. The story is broken down in exhaustive detail by numerous media sources.

[He's here!]

Has this hurricane hit Ireland yet?


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You might know more about that than me as it seems to be your go-to source for invalidating concerns over the SG bill...it does seem, however, that the Irish legislation has been far from harmoniously received:

https://thecountess.ie/first-irish-public-poll-on-gender-debate/

I thought the article I posted was informative and well-reasoned. Bearing in mind you proclaimed the use of an s35 as 'the end of devolution' it's probably fair to say the hurricane has well and truly hit Scotland.

[Keith_M]

A male rapist Adam Graham raped two women, after being charged there was a name change to Isla Bryson, in court the victims had to refer to the rapist using the pronouns she/her and the rapist is now in a women only prison.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbR9k9f9clU


Male rapist, with *****, sent to women's prison.

What a totally *****ed up idea.... and what's to stop it happening multiples times with other prisoners that decide totake advantage of this nonsense?

:rolleyes:

[Keith_M]

Does your right wing, anti-minority source mention that the person in question is also being kept isolated from the general population of prisoners, as is the case with all imprisoned sex offenders in Scotland?

What is their take on how well they think the female guards running the prison will treat this particular individual?


Is this is a 'right-wing, anti-minority source'?......


"Rhona Hotchkiss, a former governor of Cornton Vale and outspoken critic of the gender reforms, told the Guardian: “My fear was that under self-identification it would open the floodgates and open the prison service to legal challenge if [these individuals] weren’t moved to the women’s estate”.

She suggested that the frequency of segregation reviews meant the SPS would “struggle” to keep Bryson from mixing with other female prisoners."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/25/trans-woman-isla-bryson-guilty-raping-two-women-remanded-in-female-prison-scotland

[Ozyhibby]

Male rapist, with *****, sent to women's prison.

What a totally *****ed up idea.... and what's to stop it happening multiples times with other prisoners that decide totake advantage of this nonsense?

:rolleyes:

That might be handy. Would make a separate wing viable.[emoji106]


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[archie]

Sex offenders don't mix with the general population of prisoners for very obvious reasons. Male, female, transgender.... etc. It makes no difference. The same applies regardless.

It's easy just to point out overly simplistic pieces of information such as "male transgender gets sent to female prison", without any additional context applied in order to put those "thoughts" into people's heads. The right wing media excels when it comes to deliberately vague narratives.
Interesting that you are trying to turn this into a left right issue. Surely with a class analysis you would recognise that the majority of women prisoners are poor, vulnerable and working class. And so protecting them is a class issue.

[Santa Cruz]

That might be handy. Would make a separate wing viable.[emoji106]


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According to this article Cornton Vale is due to close.


https://insidetime.org/cornton-vale-to-close-in-the-new-year/

[He's here!]

Interesting that you are trying to turn this into a left right issue. Surely with a class analysis you would recognise that the majority of women prisoners are poor, vulnerable and working class. And so protecting them is a class issue.

Not sure if these are UK-wide stats, but it appears that only 1% of women prisoners are there for violent offences:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tv-licence-fee-women-convictions-b1763192.html

[He's here!]

Is this is a 'right-wing, anti-minority source'?......


"Rhona Hotchkiss, a former governor of Cornton Vale and outspoken critic of the gender reforms, told the Guardian: “My fear was that under self-identification it would open the floodgates and open the prison service to legal challenge if [these individuals] weren’t moved to the women’s estate”.

She suggested that the frequency of segregation reviews meant the SPS would “struggle” to keep Bryson from mixing with other female prisoners."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/25/trans-woman-isla-bryson-guilty-raping-two-women-remanded-in-female-prison-scotland

While from a perceived 'right-wing' source, the farcical nature of this case is only heightened by the fact 'her' counsel argued that: ‘There is no way Isla Bryson could be described as a predatory male. If you accept that evidence, that she is transitioning, that she is aiming to continue on that path to becoming female gender, that goes a long way to acquitting her of these charges’.

​https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/isla-bryson-and-the-madness-of-scotlands-gender-bill/

[LewysGot2]

Sex offenders don't mix with the general population of prisoners for very obvious reasons. Male, female, transgender.... etc. It makes no difference. The same applies regardless.

It's easy just to point out overly simplistic pieces of information such as "male transgender gets sent to female prison", without any additional context applied in order to put those "thoughts" into people's heads. The right wing media excels when it comes to deliberately vague narratives.

Do you have any concern whatsoever for the mental wellbeing of not just the statistically impoverished and vulnerable female prisoners or their female prison officers?

This person will come into contact with females who know they are a double sex offender. Whether they ever get assaulted or not, they will feel the impact of the presence of a fox in the hen house.

[Moulin Yarns]

On the subject of women's prisons, is it also wrong that there are male prison officers in charge of women in women's prisons?

[James310]

On the subject of women's prisons, is it also wrong that there are male prison officers in charge of women in women's prisons?

Why would it be wrong? You do see a difference between someone who has committed a crime and is in prison for that reason and someone who happens to be working there?

You haven't thought this one through have you....

[LewysGot2]

On the subject of women's prisons, is it also wrong that there are male prison officers in charge of women in women's prisons?

Convicted sex offenders/rapists of women on multiple occasions - not those ones.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why would it be wrong? You do see a difference between someone who has committed a crime and is in prison for that reason and someone who happens to be working there?

You haven't thought this one through have you....


For starters, all the talk of men entering women only spaces? Are women prisoners not allowed that right?

[James310]

For starters, all the talk of men entering women only spaces? Are women prisoners not allowed that right?

You are seriously comparing a man convicted of multiple rapes of women entering a woman's prison with an employee of the Scottish Prison Service working there? Are you on the wind up?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Interesting that you are trying to turn this into a left right issue. Surely with a class analysis you would recognise that the majority of women prisoners are poor, vulnerable and working class. And so protecting them is a class issue.

Oh yes, I forgot. Male prisoners are rich, powerful and upper class.

Not sure where you got the idea that class had anything to do with this.

[Stairway 2 7]

Some will call it transphobic, most will call it common sense

Uk gov to change the law so no one with a ***** will be housed in a female prison. Trans males regardless of genitalia won't be put in a female prison if they are convicted of a sexual offence.

This all could and should have happened with GRA ammendments

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-changes-to-transgender-prisoner-policy-framework

[archie]

Oh yes, I forgot. Male prisoners are rich, powerful and upper class.

Not sure where you got the idea that class had anything to do with this.

Do you really think class has nothing to do with the make up of prison population?

[James310]

SNP MSP calls for the policy of allowing rapists in woman's prisons to end.

https://twitter.com/AshtenRegan/status/1618548780437209088?t=PSSSboMffe3Ix9aCuNUCdQ&s=19

"Rapists should not be placed in the women’s prison estate. Many female prisoners have been victims of male violence and are vulnerable. It is unacceptable - the policy must be urgently changed."

This will confuse people I am guessing seeing as it's only right wing Tories opposed to this.

[147lothian]

Interesting that you are trying to turn this into a left right issue. Surely with a class analysis you would recognise that the majority of women prisoners are poor, vulnerable and working class. And so protecting them is a class issue.

Being against male rapists being sent to women only prisons is not a right wing anti minority view it's a common sense view. The extremists are muddying the waters by trying to turn it into a left/right issue or by saying things like a male prison officer who works at a female only prison as part of his duties for the SPS is the same as a convicted male rapist being there, no-one buys this.

Joanna Cherry is about to give evidence in court against a Trans Rights Activist who threatened to rape and murder her because of her views on women's rights. It's easy to see who the extremist is and certainly is not Joanna Cherry.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxes8RuCkFY

[James310]

Being against male rapists being sent to women only prisons is not a right wing anti minority view it's a common sense view. The extremists are muddying the waters by trying to turn it into a left/right issue or by saying things like a male prison officer who works at a female only prison as part of his duties for the SPS is the same as a convicted male rapist being there, no-one buys this.

Joanna Cherry is about to give evidence in court against a Trans Rights Activist who threatened to rape and murder her because of her views on women's rights. It's easy to see who the extremist is and certainly is not Joanna Cherry.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxes8RuCkFY

Joanna Cherry, Ash Regan, JK Rowling etc, all known for their right wing Tory views right enough.

[Ozyhibby]

SNP MSP calls for the policy of allowing rapists in woman's prisons to end.

https://twitter.com/AshtenRegan/status/1618548780437209088?t=PSSSboMffe3Ix9aCuNUCdQ&s=19

"Rapists should not be placed in the women’s prison estate. Many female prisoners have been victims of male violence and are vulnerable. It is unacceptable - the policy must be urgently changed."

This will confuse people I am guessing seeing as it's only right wing Tories opposed to this.

NS just said at FMQ’s that they won’t be held in women’s prisons.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/fmqs-transgender-rapist-will-not-be-incarcerated-in-cornton-vale-womens-prison-says-nicola-sturgeon-4002153

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[James310]

NS just said at FMQ’s that they won’t be held in women’s prisons.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/fmqs-transgender-rapist-will-not-be-incarcerated-in-cornton-vale-womens-prison-says-nicola-sturgeon-4002153

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I am glad she has seen sense at last. She was a bit all over the place though at FMQs. The rapist is still there now and was placed there. They say a risk assessment was required, the first question should have been is this man a convicted rapist? If yes he should be nowhere near a woman's prison.

[147lothian]

Joanna Cherry, Ash Regan, JK Rowling etc, all known for their right wing Tory views right enough.

Well said, for me there are a lot of misogynistic men who have jumped on the trans rights bandwagon, as a way of venting their anti-women vitriol, isn't ironic that they think they can shout obscenities like ****, TERF and fascist and also scream rape and death threats at women whenever they organize to protect their sex based rights, while still thinking they are the good guys.

They must know that the feminist woman's rights campaigners are overwhelmingly socialist stalwarts. When speaking about why it is important to protect woman's sex based rights, Karl Marx said that "the liberation of women is the liberation of all". You can't have women's liberation if a man can just Self-ID into a women only space.

[Betty Boop]

Well said, for me there are a lot of misogynistic men who have jumped on the trans rights bandwagon, as a way of venting their anti-women vitriol, isn't ironic that they think they can shout obscenities like ****, TERF and fascist and also scream rape and death threats at women whenever they organize to protect their sex based rights, while still thinking they are the good guys.

They must know that the feminist woman's rights campaigners are overwhelmingly socialist stalwarts. When speaking about why it is important to protect woman's sex based rights, Karl Marx said that "the liberation of women is the liberation of all". You can't have women's liberation if a man can just Self-ID into a women only space.

Well said

[hibsbollah]

While from a perceived 'right-wing' source, the farcical nature of this case is only heightened by the fact 'her' counsel argued that: ‘There is no way Isla Bryson could be described as a predatory male. If you accept that evidence, that she is transitioning, that she is aiming to continue on that path to becoming female gender, that goes a long way to acquitting her of these charges’.

​https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/isla-bryson-and-the-madness-of-scotlands-gender-bill/

Are you trying to argue that Julia Hartley Brewer diatribes and the real proponents of class war The Spectator are NOT right wing sources? Of course they are. The hysterical comment in the right wing media is fueling intolerance and adding to the febrile debate, that’s the point that’s being made, not that anyone doubts that there are pro and anti trans positions across the political spectrum, that’s not up for debate, it’s clear fact.

[Ozyhibby]

I am glad she has seen sense at last. She was a bit all over the place though at FMQs. The rapist is still there now and was placed there. They say a risk assessment was required, the first question should have been is this man a convicted rapist? If yes he should be nowhere near a woman's prison.

I doubt he/she has even seen a female prisoner.


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[James310]

I doubt he/she has even seen a female prisoner.


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Yes women's prisons are notorious for not having any women prisoners.

What was the point in sending him there in the first place, makes you wonder.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes women's prisons are notorious for not having any women prisoners.

What was the point in sending him there in the first place, makes you wonder.

FM made the point today that the prisoner is totally segregated while risk assessment done.
Now that we know that rapists won’t be in women’s prisons, it’s going to kill a fair bit of the chat on this thread though.

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[He's here!]

NS just said at FMQ’s that they won’t be held in women’s prisons.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/fmqs-transgender-rapist-will-not-be-incarcerated-in-cornton-vale-womens-prison-says-nicola-sturgeon-4002153

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Bowed to public pressure thankfully.

I can't agree with her continued insistence that trans women do not present a threat to women though. What is Bryson if not a trans woman? A man?

You either accept that trans women are not women (the correct view) or you insist that they are and therefore acknowledge they are capable of harm to women.

[He's here!]

Are you trying to argue that Julia Hartley Brewer diatribes and the real proponents of class war The Spectator are NOT right wing sources? Of course they are. The hysterical comment in the right wing media is fueling intolerance and adding to the febrile debate, that’s the point that’s being made, not that anyone doubts that there are pro and anti trans positions across the political spectrum, that’s not up for debate, it’s clear fact.

I'm pointing out the preposterousness of Bryson's defence argument. What did you think of it?

[James310]

FM made the point today that the prisoner is totally segregated while risk assessment done.
Now that we know that rapists won’t be in women’s prisons, it’s going to kill a fair bit of the chat on this thread though.

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I don't recall much chat about this before this case. I do recall people supporting and opposing allowing convicted rapists like this man to apply for a GRC, you support it and I oppose it.

[147lothian]

FM made the point today that the prisoner is totally segregated while risk assessment done.
Now that we know that rapists won’t be in women’s prisons, it’s going to kill a fair bit of the chat on this thread though.

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Helen Joyce, argued that if you accept the transwomen are women mantra, it won't be long before you get male rapists in women's prisons long before the Iyla Bryson case came to light.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsuZreA8JOE

[Ozyhibby]

Helen Joyce, argued that if you accept the transwomen are women mantra, it won't be long before you get male rapists in women's prisons long before the Iyla Bryson case came to light.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsuZreA8JOE

The FM said today that it won’t happen. Clear as day.


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[James310]

The FM said today that it won’t happen. Clear as day.


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It did happen didn't it?

[archie]

Are you trying to argue that Julia Hartley Brewer diatribes and the real proponents of class war The Spectator are NOT right wing sources? Of course they are. The hysterical comment in the right wing media is fueling intolerance and adding to the febrile debate, that’s the point that’s being made, not that anyone doubts that there are pro and anti trans positions across the political spectrum, that’s not up for debate, it’s clear fact.Yet I keep reading here that it is right wingers who oppose the legislation. That fit's neatly in to the narrative that any opposition to the legislation is akin to fascism. The 'furries against fascism' planned protest againt a feminist meeting is Glasgow being a recent example.

[Ozyhibby]

It did happen didn't it?

What did?


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[Stairway 2 7]

What did?


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Got sent to a female prison. Then world wide uproar and embarrassment made them u-turn. What about Katie Dolatowski, sexual assault plus a separate violent crime. Does that not qualify or do we have to wait until cnn reports that for her to be sent back to male prison

[Ozyhibby]

Got sent to a female prison. Then world wide uproar and embarrassment made them u-turn. What about Katie Dolatowski, sexual assault plus a separate violent crime. Does that not qualify or do we have to wait until cnn reports that for her to be sent back to male prison


Got sent to a female prison. Then world wide uproar and embarrassment made them u-turn. What about Katie Dolatowski, sexual assault plus a separate violent crime. Does that not qualify or do we have to wait until cnn reports that for her to be sent back to male prison

The prisoner has been in isolation. Could be on the moon for all the difference it makes. Hasn’t met a single other prisoner.


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[James310]

What did?


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A rapist getting sent to a woman's prison. You said "The FM said today that it won’t happen. Clear as day"

It did happen. Hopefully it won't happen again.

[Ozyhibby]

A man getting sent to a woman's prison. You said "The FM said today that it won’t happen. Clear as day"

It did happen. Hopefully it won't happen again.

The prisoner hasn’t been placed yet. The prisoner is being held in isolation.


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[James310]

The prisoner hasn’t been placed yet. The prisoner is being held in isolation.


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He was placed in Cornton Vale, a woman's prison, hence why it's a story. He will be moved to a man's prison. Spin it as much as you like but a rapist was placed in a woman's prison, there was quite rightly outrage and now that decision is being reversed.

[Ozyhibby]

He was placed in Cornton Vale, a woman's prison. He will be moved to a man's prison. Spin it as much as you like but a rapist was placed in a woman's prison, there was quite rightly outrage and now that decision is being reversed.

Prisoner hasn’t been placed anywhere yet. Has been held in isolation. No spin. Just facts.
You keep up the scaremongering though.[emoji106]


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[James310]

Prisoner hasn’t been placed anywhere yet. Has been held in isolation. No spin. Just facts.
You keep up the scaremongering though.[emoji106]


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Where was he placed in isolation?

Cornton Vale, a woman's prison. Is that incorrect?

[Ozyhibby]

Where was he placed in isolation?

Cornton Vale, a woman's prison. Is that incorrect?

Was the prisoner placed with female prisoners? No. That is a fact.


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[James310]

Was the prisoner placed with female prisoners? No. That is a fact.


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Well if they would be in isolation the whole time in Cornton Vale and never be in contact with female prisoners why was he moved? Your not really making much sense here with your robust defence of what happened.

The facts are he was placed in a woman's prison. Spin it how you like, most reasonable people will see it for what it is/was.

[Just Alf]

He was placed in Cornton Vale, a woman's prison, hence why it's a story. He will be moved to a man's prison. Spin it as much as you like but a rapist was placed in a woman's prison, there was quite rightly outrage and now that decision is being reversed.To be fair... the placement was done by the courts, the Prison Service have him/her in isolation while they do their risk assessment and he's almost certainly going to be moved to a male prison as a result of that assessment.
The FM is on record as making her views known to the SPS but not "officially".
I imagine if the SPS decide to keep him in a female prison the the Scottish Government might step in and make it official.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think one of the reasons that they were placed on remand awaiting sentence in cornton Vale is because the prison service in Scotland is facing a totally new situation.

Once sentence is passed it will become clearer.


FWIW I think because the crimes took place when male then serving a sentence in a male prison is appropriate.

[grunt]

The facts are he was placed in a woman's prison. Spin it how you like, most reasonable people will see it for what it is/was.
What was it?

[James310]

What was it?

That the rapist was in a woman's prison? Is that not true?

[Kato]

That the rapist was in a woman's prison? Is that not true?Don't you like detail?

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[147lothian]

That the rapist was in a woman's prison? Is that not true?

It is true and unless a CNN team turn up at Saughton Prison there could be more. Edinburgh male prisoner Albert Cabellero who abducted and raped his female care worker has changed name to Claire and has been boasting that he will be in a woman's prison before being released, this is the danger inherent in the transwomen are women mantra, that reducing being a women to an identity category rather than the reality of biological sex.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu88kxgNGTg

[grunt]

That the rapist was in a woman's prison? Is that not true?I have no idea. But it doesn't matter what I know, since we have you on the forum with your immense and completely accurate knowledge of every single thing that happens in Scotland. And you are never wrong. Amazing.

[James310]

I have no idea. But it doesn't matter what I know, since we have you on the forum with your immense and completely accurate knowledge of every single thing that happens in Scotland. And you are never wrong. Amazing.

You have no idea, so why you commenting and asking? 😂 I have no idea about this but will comment and ask questions.

[WeeRussell]

Where was he placed in isolation?

Cornton Vale, a woman's prison. Is that incorrect?

Just checking you do know what ‘isolation’ means Jamesy boy?

[James310]

Just checking you do know what ‘isolation’ means’ Jamesy boy?

You do know what a woman's prison is? Why is he being moved if he would continually be in isolation? Russellboy?

Is Cornton Vale a woman's prison? Yes. Was this rapist held in Cornton Vale? Yes.

Why do you think he is being moved?

[ronaldo7]

To be fair... the placement was done by the courts, the Prison Service have him/her in isolation while they do their risk assessment and he's almost certainly going to be moved to a male prison as a result of that assessment.
The FM is on record as making her views known to the SPS but not "officially".
I imagine if the SPS decide to keep him in a female prison the the Scottish Government might step in and make it official.

Correct.

I think they have 72 hours to make the assessment. Now in Saughton

[James310]

Correct.

I think they have 72 hours to make the assessment. Now in Saughton

Is he really in Saughton? Surely by the logic of some (not you) he actually isn't in Saughton, he is in "isolation".

But yeah he is in Saughton just like he was in Cornton Vale.

[grunt]

You have no idea, so why you commenting and asking? If I don't know something, I ask in order to find out. Doesn't everyone?

Does your insight come to you fully formed?

[ronaldo7]

Is he really in Saughton? Surely by the logic of some (not you) he actually isn't in Saughton, he is in "isolation".

But yeah he is in Saughton just like he was in Cornton Vale.

It's been reported by the media.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Is he really in Saughton? Surely by the logic of some (not you) he actually isn't in Saughton, he is in "isolation".

But yeah he is in Saughton just like he was in Cornton Vale.

why do i get the feeling you're getting a wee kick out of saying 'him' repeatedly?

to be clear, i'm not defending the rapist - just questioning whether you might be being slightly disingenuous in your concerns. :aok:

[Stairway 2 7]

Where is katie dolatowski. Sexual assault of a girl and assaulted a male prisoner when a man

[James310]

why do i get the feeling you're getting a wee kick out of saying 'him' repeatedly?

to be clear, i'm not defending the rapist - just questioning whether you might be being slightly disingenuous in your concerns. :aok:

Just following the law, but nice to see you have some sympathy for how he is addressed. Poor him.

https://twitter.com/JennyMarra/status/1617982535895764993?t=qDwyiMWuhokAP5qSbwpyJQ&s=19

"Let’s also remember that any media organisation that tomorrow calls the convicted rapist “she” is also not complying with the law. They are following IPSO @IpsoNews guidance which is not legally compliant and has been captured like the Scottish Prison Service."

Would you have made his victims call him "she" and "her"?

[CropleyWasGod]

Just following the law, but nice to see you have some sympathy for how he is addressed. Poor him.

https://twitter.com/JennyMarra/status/1617982535895764993?t=qDwyiMWuhokAP5qSbwpyJQ&s=19

Let’s also remember that any media organisation that tomorrow calls the convicted rapist “she” is also not complying with the law. They are following IPSO @IpsoNews guidance which is not legally compliant and has been captured like the Scottish Prison Service.

Would you have made his victims call him "she" and "her"?

I wasn't aware that the law has a say about the use of pronouns. Happy to be pointed in the right direction.

[James310]

I wasn't aware that the law has a say about the use of pronouns. Happy to be pointed in the right direction.

I have no idea what the actual law is (Grunt will be happy something I don't know) but what I do know is for the sake of the victims it feels wrong and shows no sensitivity to their feelings, which should always come above the rapists and what we refer to them as. Imagine reading about "her" and "she" especially in this case when the victims were raped by a man.

[WeeRussell]

You do know what a woman's prison is? Why is he being moved if he would continually be in isolation? Russellboy?

Is Cornton Vale a woman's prison? Yes. Was this rapist held in Cornton Vale? Yes.

Why do you think he is being moved?

Don’t think anyone has denied that Cornton Vale is a women’s prison or that this particular person was in the place. They are just wondering why you are up in arms about it… wouldn’t other inmates be more at risk from staff, visitors, or any other human being that set foot in the building, than someone held in isolation?

[Stairway 2 7]

Don’t think anyone has denied that Cornton Vale is a women’s prison or that this particular person was in the place. They are just wondering why you are up in arms about it… wouldn’t other inmates be more at risk from staff, visitors, or any other human being that set foot in the building, than someone held in isolation?

The maximum she would have been in isolation is 72 hours, after that it's against the law. They would have to change the law but that would take some time. The only reason they were stopped from being reintroduced was the gov was forced into a u-turn. katie dolatowskiis mixing with females now. That's after sexualy assaulting a girl and assaulting a male prisoner whilst waiting to become a female

[CropleyWasGod]

I have no idea what the actual law is (Grunt will be happy something I don't know) but what I do know is for the sake of the victims it feels wrong and shows no sensitivity to their feelings, which should always come above the rapists and what we refer to them as. Imagine reading about "her" and "she" especially in this case when the victims were raped by a man.

There is no such law as far as I can see.

So you won't be huckled for using feminine pronouns.:wink:

[ronaldo7]

I wasn't aware that the law has a say about the use of pronouns. Happy to be pointed in the right direction.

I'd just like the Scottish prison service released, and those who captured them punished.

Who are these people. 👀

[marinello59]

This thread has now jumped the shark. :greengrin

[James310]

There is no such law as far as I can see.

So you won't be huckled for using feminine pronouns.:wink:

I am sure it matters to the victims.

[CropleyWasGod]

I am sure it matters to the victims.

No doubt.

But I was referring to your insistence that you were "just following the law".

[CropleyWasGod]

This thread has now jumped the shark. :greengrin

Gonna need a bigger website.:greengrin

[archie]

The maximum she would have been in isolation is 72 hours, after that it's against the law. They would have to change the law but that would take some time. The only reason they were stopped from being reintroduced was the gov was forced into a u-turn. katie dolatowskiis mixing with females now. That's after sexualy assaulting a girl and assaulting a male prisoner whilst waiting to become a female

And that's the key issue here amongst all this disassembling nonsense. In addition, the position appears to have changed on the hoof. Yesterday it was a matter for the SPS. So what happened today?

[Ozyhibby]

And that's the key issue here amongst all this disassembling nonsense. In addition, the position appears to have changed on the hoof. Yesterday it was a matter for the SPS. So what happened today?

Nothing. All that happened today was the FM explained the situation. All the rest was made up nonsense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

Some will call it transphobic, most will call it common sense

Uk gov to change the law so no one with a ***** will be housed in a female prison. Trans males regardless of genitalia won't be put in a female prison if they are convicted of a sexual offence.

This all could and should have happened with GRA ammendments

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-changes-to-transgender-prisoner-policy-framework


Good to hear.

I see Sturgeon has now given in to the obvious outrage over this story and said this rapist is not going to a woman's prison after all.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Just following the law, but nice to see you have some sympathy for how he is addressed. Poor him.

https://twitter.com/JennyMarra/status/1617982535895764993?t=qDwyiMWuhokAP5qSbwpyJQ&s=19

"Let’s also remember that any media organisation that tomorrow calls the convicted rapist “she” is also not complying with the law. They are following IPSO @IpsoNews guidance which is not legally compliant and has been captured like the Scottish Prison Service."

Would you have made his victims call him "she" and "her"?

absolutely zero sympathy for a rapist here, obviously - like I said, it just seemed to me that you were using 'he' as much as was possible and enjoying it, or making some kind of point of it. happy to be wrong.

[Stairway 2 7]

This seems on the collage. They are saying they had no knowledge of the offence and she had already changed her name.

@NicholaKane_
·
Exclusive -STV News has learned double rapist Adam Graham, who was sent to Cornton Vale prison after identifying as a woman, attended a beauty course at a Ayrshire College while awaiting trial for the attacks - taking classes alongside young girls

[degenerated]

It's impossible to compare those countries. It would be like comparing a potato to a tumshie.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk:hilarious

[James310]

absolutely zero sympathy for a rapist here, obviously - like I said, it just seemed to me that you were using 'he' as much as was possible and enjoying it, or making some kind of point of it. happy to be wrong.

I am not going to use she or her, so I would use he or him. What would you use?

[degenerated]

According to this article Cornton Vale is due to close.


https://insidetime.org/cornton-vale-to-close-in-the-new-year/There's a new women's national facility being built there. Most of it is built now, just a couple of buildings to go and demolition of the old one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-51835727.amp

[Santa Cruz]

There's a new women's national facility being built there. Most of it is built now, just a couple of buildings to go and demolition of the old one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-51835727.amp

Ta. Mentions the new female custody units in the original article I linked.

[archie]

Nothing. All that happened today was the FM explained the situation. All the rest was made up nonsense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And yet they are in Saughton...

[Just Alf]

You do know what a woman's prison is? Why is he being moved if he would continually be in isolation? Russellboy?

Is Cornton Vale a woman's prison? Yes. Was this rapist held in Cornton Vale? Yes.

Why do you think he is being moved?Did you accidentally miss my earlier post where I explained what exactly had happened?

[Just Alf]

And that's the key issue here amongst all this disassembling nonsense. In addition, the position appears to have changed on the hoof. Yesterday it was a matter for the SPS. So what happened today?Still the SPS, they've done their assessment and assigned the prisoner to what they feel is the most appropriate facility.

[James310]

Did you accidentally miss my earlier post where I explained what exactly had happened?

You mean your opinion on what happened, not exactly what happened. I did ignore it yes as I thought it was time to move on.

Your earlier post was not strictly true, I said he was in a woman's prison and someone replied saying "The prisoner hasn’t been placed yet" but he was placed in a woman's prison, Cornton Vale. He was in that prison. He is now in Saughton after being moved there from Cornton Vale.

But time to move on.

[Just Alf]

Should add, it's good to see all of us on this thread aligned to the Scottish Government on this and we all agree that Cornton Vale was the wrong place for the offender to be. :agree:

[Just Alf]

You mean your opinion on what happened, not exactly what happened. I did ignore it yes as I thought it was time to move on.

Your earlier post was not strictly true, I said he was in a woman's prison and someone replied saying "The prisoner hasn’t been placed yet" but he was placed in a woman's prison, Cornton Vale. He was in that prison. He is now in Saughton after being moved there from Cornton Vale.

But time to move on.I beg to differ.. it was exactly what happened.


Edit.. I agree, we all are thinking the process has reached the right end result, so time to move on.

[James310]

I beg to differ.. it was exactly what happened.

I am mixing you up with another poster now, sorry.

[Stairway 2 7]

Should add, it's good to see all of us on this thread aligned to the Scottish Government on this and we all agree that Cornton Vale was the wrong place for the offender to be. :agree:

The government only changed the decision due to uproar and it becoming a huge story. The policy before the u-turn was wrong. Katie Dolatowski shouldn't be there either but the story isn't worldwide so I guess she'll stay mixing with women

[Just Alf]

The government only changed the decision due to uproar and it becoming a huge story. The policy before the u-turn was wrong. Katie Dolatowski shouldn't be there either but the story isn't worldwide so I guess she'll stay mixing with womenTo be clear.. the SPS made the decision, the government haven't made any 'decision '

When asked Sturgeon stated earlier today that she felt it was wrong for this particular offender to be in a woman's prison but confirmed no official statement/instruction had been made to the SPS. She also agreed that fhe SPS did know of her feelings on the matter though.

[marinello59]

To be clear.. the SPS made the decision, the government haven't made any 'decision '

When asked Sturgeon stated earlier today that she felt it was wrong for this particular offender to be in a woman's prison but confirmed no official statement/instruction had been made to the SPS. She also agreed that fhe SPS did know of her feelings on the matter though.

The key phrase there being no official instruction was given. So we can all pretend that no ‘unofficial’ pressure was applied to save Government face. That’s how politics work, smoke and mirrors.

[archie]

Still the SPS, they've done their assessment and assigned the prisoner to what they feel is the most appropriate facility.

We don't know that at all. We know that the assessment period started. We know there was a very clear statement in the Parliament today. I suspect that wasn't the first the SPS heard of it. But I suspect the outcome is what most people think is right.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/TomSwarbrick1/status/1618739887687204865?t=SYx2IOrZqaMdWvdpbZ4ygQ&s=19

Says Police Scotland are not recording the crimes as being committed by a man. Not sure how that works as according to the law in Scotland a woman cannot commit a rape. A bit of a mess.

The crime stats will look a bit wonky as well. I guess this is a new category as there won't be any previous women in Scotland that have been convicted of rape? Aren't crime stats used to help planning and budgets, help workout where extra safeguarding needs to be made etc. If the data is wrong it could put people at risk.

A thought for the victims who were surely victims of male violence and now seeing this being recorded as something different.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64419533

'Sending Bryson to Cornton Vale was unnecessary shambles'.

[He's here!]

The key phrase there being no official instruction was given. So we can all pretend that no ‘unofficial’ pressure was applied to save Government face. That’s how politics work, smoke and mirrors.

Indeed. Nobody seriously believes Sturgeon didn't intervene here when confronted with the public uproar.

[Andy Bee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64419533

'Sending Bryson to Cornton Vale was unnecessary shambles'.

"Former Governor" I listened to the "CURRENT" Governor and the SPS policy on trans people is that they are admitted to the prison which matches the gender they identify with initially which I think is correct. They're then subject to a plethora of evaluations whilst being held away from the prison population, also correct. A decision is then made after 72hrs on where that person should be incarcerated which in this case is also correct assuming it's Saughton.

I've also listened to numerous MSM sources trying to conflate this with the GRR bill today which is complete bollox, I've also read in this thread some absolute bull**** trying to score political points and the end outcome of all this vitriol is that the transgender community is now more isolated than ever before, well done folks you've fell into Alisdair Jacks culture wars 101. :clapper:

[Ozyhibby]

"Former Governor" I listened to the "CURRENT" Governor and the SPS policy on trans people is that they are admitted to the prison which matches the gender they identify with initially which I think is correct. They're then subject to a plethora of evaluations whilst being held away from the prison population, also correct. A decision is then made after 72hrs on where that person should be incarcerated which in this case is also correct assuming it's Saughton.

I've also listened to numerous MSM sources trying to conflate this with the GRR bill today which is complete bollox, I've also read in this thread some absolute bull**** trying to score political points and the end outcome of all this vitriol is that the transgender community is now more isolated than ever before, well done folks you've fell into Alisdair Jacks culture wars 101. :clapper:

Fell into it? I think some of the folk on this thread are more committed than Jack ever was.


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[Andy Bee]

Fell into it? I think some of the folk on this thread are more committed than Jack ever was.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm maybe being a wee bit generous, especially to Jack.

[He's here!]

"Former Governor" I listened to the "CURRENT" Governor and the SPS policy on trans people is that they are admitted to the prison which matches the gender they identify with initially which I think is correct. They're then subject to a plethora of evaluations whilst being held away from the prison population, also correct. A decision is then made after 72hrs on where that person should be incarcerated which in this case is also correct assuming it's Saughton.

I've also listened to numerous MSM sources trying to conflate this with the GRR bill today which is complete bollox, I've also read in this thread some absolute bull**** trying to score political points and the end outcome of all this vitriol is that the transgender community is now more isolated than ever before, well done folks you've fell into Alisdair Jacks culture wars 101. :clapper:

Nobody's done more to undermine the trans community here than Bryson. He won't be the last to try it on with this bull**** (to coin your terminology) if the SG bill were ever to become law. Listening to Sturgeon tie herself in knots avoiding having to answer whether he is a man or a woman was toe curling.

[Andy Bee]

Nobody's done more to undermine the trans community here than Bryson. He won't be the last to try it on with this bull**** (to coin your terminology) if the SG bill were ever to become law. Listening to Sturgeon tie herself in knots avoiding having to answer whether he is a man or a woman was toe curling.

I just outlined the process, Bryson went through that process and the outcome was what should be expected, it's nothing to do with that rapist. It's all to do with the furore of this toxic trans debate and the political point scoring associated with it. Bryson is being used as a political pawn in this bull**** (my terminology) to the detriment of the trans community, of that there is no doubt and Jack is a main player in that.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't actually believe even the SNP's most devoted cultists think there wasn't a political intervention in this case.

It's a bizarre world that she even set foot in Cornton Vale. No one is answering why Katie Dolatowski is still in a female prison. Sexual assault against a girl and beat up a male prisoner, but it's not worldwide news like it has been this week so that's OK.

[WeeRussell]

If I don't know something, I ask in order to find out. Doesn't everyone?

Does your insight come to you fully formed?

I was unaware of details too - you can sometimes find them on here after trawling through all the obsessive, repetitive *****.

Without any detail, I was struggling to understand a poster’s insistence on asking the same straightforward question without any context re them being in isolation.

Seemed a bit like how Hibs fans who come on here to read about Hibs won’t be affected by those draining posters who spend every day on hibs.net, as they are restricted to the HG and threads about the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon.

[hibsbollah]

Yet I keep reading here that it is right wingers who oppose the legislation. That fit's neatly in to the narrative that any opposition to the legislation is akin to fascism. The 'furries against fascism' planned protest againt a feminist meeting is Glasgow being a recent example.

Well I’ve just explained the divergence between the right wing media and the public who ‘identify’ as right wingers so I’ve covered that. If you ‘keep reading’ that it’s ONLY right wingers that oppose the legislation and you feel that’s unfair on the downtrodden right wing underclass or whatever, just call the poster who made this claim out on it, that’s another issue entirely. There’s no reason to throw about the F word at people who are trying to balance two conflicting rights and sometimes get it wrong, as in the trans/safe spaces for women dichotomy, and actual real fascists who for the first time in history currently occupy positions of power in UK government.

[Just Alf]

We don't know that at all. We know that the assessment period started. We know there was a very clear statement in the Parliament today. I suspect that wasn't the first the SPS heard of it. But I suspect the outcome is what most people think is right.Sorry just woke up :-)

And sorry to keep harping on.

From horses mouth it's exactly the process that happened.

And re Government involvement whilst nothing official was mandated.to the SPS I'd have even amazed.if they were unaware of the FMs thoughts.she expressed at FM questions.

[He's here!]

I don't actually believe even the SNP's most devoted cultists think there wasn't a political intervention in this case.

It's a bizarre world that she even set foot in Cornton Vale. No one is answering why Katie Dolatowski is still in a female prison. Sexual assault against a girl and beat up a male prisoner, but it's not worldwide news like it has been this week so that's OK.

Indeed. The tiptoeing around this is absurd.

All transwomen are male.
A woman is an adult human female.

That's the most straightforward fact-based approach to adopt, particularly when it comes to rape cases.

[archie]

Well I’ve just explained the divergence between the right wing media and the public who ‘identify’ as right wingers so I’ve covered that. If you ‘keep reading’ that it’s ONLY right wingers that oppose the legislation and you feel that’s unfair on the downtrodden right wing underclass or whatever, just call the poster who made this claim out on it, that’s another issue entirely. There’s no reason to throw about the F word at people who are trying to balance two conflicting rights and sometimes get it wrong, as in the trans/safe spaces for women dichotomy, and actual real fascists who for the first time in history currently occupy positions of power in UK government.
I'm not sure why you are thinking that I'm defending 'the downtrodden right wing underclass' whatever that is. I am,however, pushing back on the garbled analysis that appears to say anyone pushing back on a belief system is a fascist. I would go further and say your labeling of UK government as fascist is extremely sloppy. I don't think right wing views, no matter how much I disagree with them, is fascist. And I see nothing fascist about concern for womens rights.

[archie]

Sorry just woke up :-)

And sorry to keep harping on.

From horses mouth it's exactly the process that happened.

And re Government involvement whilst nothing official was mandated.to the SPS I'd have even amazed.if they were unaware of the FMs thoughts.she expressed at FM questions.
What do you mean 'from the horses mouth'?

[hibby rae]

I'm not sure why you are thinking that I'm defending 'the downtrodden right wing underclass' whatever that is. I am,however, pushing back on the garbled analysis that appears to say anyone pushing back on a belief system is a fascist. I would go further and say your labeling of UK government as fascist is extremely sloppy. I don't think right wing views, no matter how much I disagree with them, is fascist. And I see nothing fascist about concern for womens rights.

Tbf he didn't say the UK government were fascist, but said there are members of the government who are. And if I look at 2 out of the last 3 Home Secretaries, for example, I think a case can be made to give them that tag.

[ronaldo7]

And that's the key issue here amongst all this disassembling nonsense. In addition, the position appears to have changed on the hoof. Yesterday it was a matter for the SPS. So what happened today?

You've said the position seems to have changed on the hoof. What evidence do you have for that, or is it that SPS carried our their assessment in the time allocated and the decision was made.

Is your "on the hoof" comment fair?

What do you know about the systems in place?

[hibsbollah]

I'm not sure why you are thinking that I'm defending 'the downtrodden right wing underclass' whatever that is. I am,however, pushing back on the garbled analysis that appears to say anyone pushing back on a belief system is a fascist. I would go further and say your labeling of UK government as fascist is extremely sloppy. I don't think right wing views, no matter how much I disagree with them, is fascist. And I see nothing fascist about concern for womens rights.

You’re absolutely all over the place. Until you can show someone, far less me, saying or suggesting ‘anyone who pushes back on a belief system is a fascist’, you are just going to be another one of those posters who grabs on to straw men because they’ve got nothing else to offer in debate.

On the other point, I am really comfortable with labeling key ministers in the current UK government as fascistic because it stands up to analysis when you look at the development of their messaging and their legislation since2017 and further back. The F word really does need to be aired more often and I’m happy to debate it elsewhere. You don’t need to wear a uniform or do a funny walk. These days the most successful ones wear nice suits.

[JeMeSouviens]

Indeed. The tiptoeing around this is absurd.

All transwomen are male.
A woman is an adult human female.

That's the most straightforward fact-based approach to adopt, particularly when it comes to rape cases.

But is it? I've been dipping my toe into some of the research around gender incongruence. There is an emerging body of work, eg. see link below, that brains as well as other parts of the body develop into masculine or feminine forms. And that there are biological mechanisms through which brain-sex may not match rest-of-body-sex. Simplistic anti-"woke" slogans are unlikely to be helpful.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm

This is not to say that the safety of female prisoners shouldn't be paramount, however, and my view is that in this situation it's quite right to isolate and assess anyone claiming to be trans. I would've thought any competent prison psychiatrist would be able to sort the actual transgender wheat from the at-it-for-nefarious-motives chaff pretty quickly?

[147lothian]

I am against the GRRB for the same reasons as people like Joanna Cherry and Debbie Hayton, that is that as soon as you make it easier to Gender Self-ID and remove all the safe guards male sexual predators will use the loops in the law to enter woman only spaces with nefarious motives.

This doesn't only put women and children at risk, it also is not good for trans people because once this inevitably happens trans people will be tarred with the same brush when crimes are carried out by male sexual predators. Isn't it ironic that after what seems like a day after the GRRB was passed in Holyrood what we were told wouldn't happen did happen.

A male sexual predator Called Adam Graham raped two women as a man after being charged there was a name change to Iyla Bryson, the victims had to address the rapist in court using the pronouns she/her and the rapist was taken on remand to a woman only prison.

I know that supporters of the Scottish Government are going to come out and say but he/she is in a male prison now so there is nothing to see move along, but do you really think this would have happened if there was not international media coverage and a public uproar?

If you think Iyla Bryson would have been moved to a male prison anyway, then look at the case of Katie Dolatowski. Just like Iyla Bryson, Katie Dolatowski is not a real trans person. Katie Dolatowski is a male pedophile who used the identity of being of a women to enter women only spaces namely supermarket female toilets to target female children.

Katie Dolatowski is male but identifies as a women and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Halbeath Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrison Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into the female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her.

This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds and a women only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after physically assaulting a fellow inmate there, has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison-service-criticised-for-moving-trans-woman-katie-dolatowski-to-cornton-vale

[archie]

You've said the position seems to have changed on the hoof. What evidence do you have for that, or is it that SPS carried our their assessment in the time allocated and the decision was made.

Is your "on the hoof" comment fair?

What do you know about the systems in place?
The responsible cabinet Secretary said on Wednesday: The simple fact is that, as I have said already, I trust the SPS to deal with this. On Thursday FM says: I will repeat some of what I have already said. Let me be clear: this prisoner is not going to be incarcerated in Cornton Vale, either short term or long term.

What is not at all clear is whether SPS reached the decision following a full assessment or not. It is unclear if FM is relaying a decision made by SPS. I don't know what happened (and to be fair, neither do you). But there is clearly a significant shift in the SG position from Wednesday to Thursday. How can the FM announce that the prisoner will never be in Cornton Vale if is is soley a matter for the SPS?

[James310]

The responsible cabinet Secretary said on Wednesday: The simple fact is that, as I have said already, I trust the SPS to deal with this. On Thursday FM says: I will repeat some of what I have already said. Let me be clear: this prisoner is not going to be incarcerated in Cornton Vale, either short term or long term.

What is not at all clear is whether SPS reached the decision following a full assessment or not. It is unclear if FM is relaying a decision made by SPS. I don't know what happened (and to be fair, neither do you). But there is clearly a significant shift in the SG position from Wednesday to Thursday. How can the FM announce that the prisoner will never be in Cornton Vale if is is soley a matter for the SPS?

"Ms Sturgeon’s official spokesman denied that the Scottish Government had any involvement in the initial decision but said she had intervened to make clear to prison chiefs her opposition to Bryson being housed with female inmates."

The Court Order said he should have been sent to Barlinnie.

[AgentDaleCooper]

The case of Isla Bryson has been in the news this week. As far as we can tell, the Scottish Prison Service’s policy has generated the result it should, and that we would have expected. As we understand it, Isla Bryson was held in segregation while a risk assessment was done. That risk assessment decided, not surprisingly, that she should not be held in the women’s estate. That is what we would expect for a person convicted of rape. It is our view that anyone who has committed sexually violent crimes, and who poses a risk to women, should not be housed with women on the female estate.
In September 2022, there were 15 trans people in custody in Scotland (0.2% of the prison population). Following risk assessments, 9 of them were held in the estate matching their gender assigned at birth, and 6 in the estate matching their transitioned gender. It is right that this should be decided on an individualised risk assessment basis. For example, a trans woman transitioned for 20 years, who is in prison for a non-violent offence like financial fraud, might pose no risk to other women in custody, but be at significant risk herself if accommodated on the male estate. A blanket rule about where trans people in custody are accommodated would be wrong.
The assessment of where a trans person in custody is held does not depend on whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate (GRC). The risk assessment policy applies to all trans people in custody, with or without GRCs. That means that the changes to the process for applying for a GRC, overwhelmingly agreed by the Scottish Parliament in December, would have no effect on the Scottish Prison Service’s policy on this, and no effect on where trans people in custody are housed.
In a community of any size, there will be some people who commit appalling crimes – that does not and should not reflect on the majority of that community.

statement from the Scottish Trans Alliance. Seems thoroughly sensible to me :aok:

interesting that the GRR bill isn't actually legally relevant to this case - it's almost as if a fuss is being kicked up to fuel a media narrative, rather than because of actual practical implications :hmmm:

to be clear, by the way - i am in no way one of these people who throws the label 'TERFs' around, and i do genuinely see why this issue is so difficult for a lot of cis women, especially those who have themselves been subjected to sexual violence. i also know, however, trans women who would be at incredible risk if for some reason they were to be thrown in a men's jail. it's an extremely complex situation, and those that seek to simplify it then write off people who disagree with them are probably the biggest hurdle to solving the issue. i find it particularly weird when cis men express very strong opinions on the matter, whether that be hurling the word 'TERF' around, or throwing grenades into the conversation as Graham Linehan likes to do.

it would appear to me, however, that the policy outlined in the statement above is pretty much spot on.

[Ozyhibby]

statement from the Scottish Trans Alliance. Seems thoroughly sensible to me :aok:

No place for sensible on here. We need to find a way to blame Sturgeon.[emoji35]


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[marinello59]

"Ms Sturgeon’s official spokesman denied that the Scottish Government had any involvement in the initial decision but said she had intervened to make clear to prison chiefs her opposition to Bryson being housed with female inmates."

The Court Order said he should have been sent to Barlinnie.

Where did this come from?

[archie]

You’re absolutely all over the place. Until you can show someone, far less me, saying or suggesting ‘anyone who pushes back on a belief system is a fascist’, you are just going to be another one of those posters who grabs on to straw men because they’ve got nothing else to offer in debate.

On the other point, I am really comfortable with labeling key ministers in the current UK government as fascistic because it stands up to analysis when you look at the development of their messaging and their legislation since2017 and further back. The F word really does need to be aired more often and I’m happy to debate it elsewhere. You don’t need to wear a uniform or do a funny walk. These days the most successful ones wear nice suits.

Ok, I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, it's possible that we may have different understanding of what fascism is. To my mind it is charactarised by:

- Authoritarianism and opposition to democratic processes
- Emphasis on managed capitalism
- Corporatism, as in the Italian model
- Political violence - particularly, but not exclusively, against opponents
- Populism, by which I mean the positioning of the leader as having the unique link to the people
- Strong role for the state in determining, and enforcing, political and social norms
- Suppression of opposing voices and control of the media.

FWIW I think that Donald Trump showed a number of these traits, but for me it was the refusal to accept the democratic process and the use of violence to secure that was fascistic behavior.

My concern is that simply labeling right wing policies as fascism, it diminishes the term and, paradoxically, makes us more inured to when it comes along. An example of what I think is hyperbolic use of the term was around the named person legislation. Some opponents labled it as fascistic as it gave the state an enhanced (and unclear) role in relation to children. This is was argued represented the state determining and enforcing political norms and imposing them on children. My view FWIW is that it was well meaning legislation that collapsed under the weight of its own contradicions. While a link could be drawn to some fascist tenets, I don't see an arguable case that it was.

Do I think the Tories are right wing. Yup. Do I agree with their policies on refugees - no. But do I think they will promote a violent insurrection to stop them being emptied from power? No. I also think that they are not attracted to the managed capitalism that is a charactaristic of fascism. They are much to free market for that.

Turning to your point about how fascism is marshaled an attack in the trans debate, here's some examples:

https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-right-feminist-fascist-220810

https://ginnymcqueen.com/terfs-are-nazi-****/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/upcoming-panel-on-womens-rights-hateful-terfs-fascists-say-non-binary-councillors/

https://www.transadvocate.com/fascism-and-transphobia-are-always-linked_n_52458.htm

https://twitter.com/pickle_bee/status/1617190171765530624

[James310]

Where did this come from?

An article in the Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/26/nicola-sturgeons-trans-law-disarray-rapist-climbdown/

[archie]

statement from the Scottish Trans Alliance. Seems thoroughly sensible to me :aok:

interesting that the GRR bill isn't actually legally relevant to this case - it's almost as if a fuss is being kicked up to fuel a media narrative, rather than because of actual practical implications :hmmm:

to be clear, by the way - i am in no way one of these people who throws the label 'TERFs' around, and i do genuinely see why this issue is so difficult for a lot of cis women, especially those who have themselves been subjected to sexual violence. i also know, however, trans women who would be at incredible risk if for some reason they were to be thrown in a men's jail. it's an extremely complex situation, and those that seek to simplify it then write off people who disagree with them are probably the biggest hurdle to solving the issue. i find it particularly weird when cis men express very strong opinions on the matter, whether that be hurling the word 'TERF' around, or throwing grenades into the conversation as Graham Linehan likes to do.

it would appear to me, however, that the policy outlined in the statement above is pretty much spot on.

Some people find the term CIS offensive: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/john-boyne-why-i-support-trans-rights-but-reject-the-word-cis-1.3843005

Also this is an interesting read: https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1618349747760410626

[Just Alf]

What do you mean 'from the horses mouth'?Someone in the SPS indirectly involved in this case.

I see Andy Bee has also answered..

[archie]

Someone in the SPS indirectly involved in this case.

I see Andy Bee has also answered..I'd advise a little care here. If someone in the SPS is talking about the process they could be in serious trouble. That's not a pop - they should be careful!

[ronaldo7]

The responsible cabinet Secretary said on Wednesday: The simple fact is that, as I have said already, I trust the SPS to deal with this. On Thursday FM says: I will repeat some of what I have already said. Let me be clear: this prisoner is not going to be incarcerated in Cornton Vale, either short term or long term.

What is not at all clear is whether SPS reached the decision following a full assessment or not. It is unclear if FM is relaying a decision made by SPS. I don't know what happened (and to be fair, neither do you). But there is clearly a significant shift in the SG position from Wednesday to Thursday. How can the FM announce that the prisoner will never be in Cornton Vale if is is soley a matter for the SPS?

Glad you cleared that up. Too many people clutching on this tbh.

[hibsbollah]

Ok, I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, it's possible that we may have different understanding of what fascism is. To my mind it is charactarised by:

- Authoritarianism and opposition to democratic processes
- Emphasis on managed capitalism
- Corporatism, as in the Italian model
- Political violence - particularly, but not exclusively, against opponents
- Populism, by which I mean the positioning of the leader as having the unique link to the people
- Strong role for the state in determining, and enforcing, political and social norms
- Suppression of opposing voices and control of the media.

FWIW I think that Donald Trump showed a number of these traits, but for me it was the refusal to accept the democratic process and the use of violence to secure that was fascistic behavior.

My concern is that simply labeling right wing policies as fascism, it diminishes the term and, paradoxically, makes us more inured to when it comes along. An example of what I think is hyperbolic use of the term was around the named person legislation. Some opponents labled it as fascistic as it gave the state an enhanced (and unclear) role in relation to children. This is was argued represented the state determining and enforcing political norms and imposing them on children. My view FWIW is that it was well meaning legislation that collapsed under the weight of its own contradicions. While a link could be drawn to some fascist tenets, I don't see an arguable case that it was.

Do I think the Tories are right wing. Yup. Do I agree with their policies on refugees - no. But do I think they will promote a violent insurrection to stop them being emptied from power? No. I also think that they are not attracted to the managed capitalism that is a charactaristic of fascism. They are much to free market for that.

Turning to your point about how fascism is marshaled an attack in the trans debate, here's some examples:

https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-right-feminist-fascist-220810

https://ginnymcqueen.com/terfs-are-nazi-****/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/upcoming-panel-on-womens-rights-hateful-terfs-fascists-say-non-binary-councillors/

https://www.transadvocate.com/fascism-and-transphobia-are-always-linked_n_52458.htm

https://twitter.com/pickle_bee/status/1617190171765530624

A reasonable list of fascist identifiers. Id add to that Stigmatisation of vulnerable groups. Or 'Othering', in modern parlance. Particularly as part of a prolonged campaign. The intolerance of dissent. The criminalisation of protest, and the undermining of the legal profession to act as an arbiter or a 'check' on the excesses of the Government, the police, the military or whoever the state gives the legal right to apply violence. The eradication of power in other non government structures like independent journalism, trade unions, local government and other bastions of what we used to call 'civil society' when i was an undergraduate. (Im not sure where this word has gone but thats another topic). All identifiers that those that wield power in the current manifestation of the Tory party seem to be very comfortable with. And all identifiers that remind me of the direction of travel of the British state. (Theres a few other identifiers like the glorification of the Male, Sporting Glory, the Armed Forces and The Church that we used to see historically in Greece Spain and Italy but that become less relevant and some of these things are less relevant in society generally).

I agree that adopting a Rick from the Young Ones style hysterical finger pointing 'You Fascist!' position anytime you find something too dogmatic or authoritarian is wrong. However, its equally wrong to ignore flagrant undermining of civil liberties and other markers ive outlined above just because a fascist state hasn't yet been created. They rarely tell you theyre going to do it while theyre doing it, its an incremental process.

Back on the main topic. The links youve provided? A few barely read blogs and a tweet dont represent positions ive seen taken publicly very often, if ever, certainly not on here and certainly not by me. On the other side of the coin you have the vast majority of the mainstream media taking a hysterically anti trans position and blatantly equating trans people in the minds of millions, with sexual predation. Thats a massive power imbalance. You cant compare the two things. Apples and pears to coin a phrase.

Just to be clear, you may have missed what I said in my previous post. Lots of people (and i include the First Minister, and the legal profession in this) are trying to balance Two Conflicting Rights at the moment. (the rights of trans people, and the rights of women to retain women-only spaces, just to be clear) Its a very tricky balancing act and mistakes will and have been made. Accusing people that are genuinely trying to balance these Two Conflicting Rights, from whatever side, of being fascists when they arent, is misguided at best.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Some people find the term CIS offensive: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/john-boyne-why-i-support-trans-rights-but-reject-the-word-cis-1.3843005

Also this is an interesting read: https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1618349747760410626

i know - here's an outline of why i use the term.

firstly, i think that trans women = women, and trans men = men in terms of their identity.

if i want to talk about women whose identity matches the gender they were born, it's excluding trans people to refer to them as simply 'women' or 'men', as this suggests that trans people are 'women/men, but...'.

as such, a term is needed to differentiate between trans people and people who's gender identity matches that which they were assigned at birth...as that is a rather cumbersome 'term' (it's more of a sentence).

for want of a 'better' term, i use 'cis', because i don't really see what's offensive about it - it's simply a means of differentiating. if someone is offended by it then i'll gladly use some other term, or if necessary, roll off that massive dictionary definition.

i honestly have no clue whatsoever why a man would be 'offended' by being referred to as 'cis' though. i do get it with women, particularly those from older generations - they've spent their lives fighting for rights based on a sharp distinction between the genders, and are now concerned to see such a distinction being dissolved (as, i understand, they see it). but men...i don't get it :confused:

interesting article though, even though i pretty much disagree with his final point.

[Kato]

Ok, I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, it's possible that we may have different understanding of what fascism is. To my mind it is charactarised by:

- Authoritarianism and opposition to democratic processes
- Emphasis on managed capitalism
- Corporatism, as in the Italian model
- Political violence - particularly, but not exclusively, against opponents
- Populism, by which I mean the positioning of the leader as having the unique link to the people
- Strong role for the state in determining, and enforcing, political and social norms
- Suppression of opposing voices and control of the media.

FWIW I think that Donald Trump showed a number of these traits, but for me it was the refusal to accept the democratic process and the use of violence to secure that was fascistic behavior.

My concern is that simply labeling right wing policies as fascism, it diminishes the term and, paradoxically, makes us more inured to when it comes along. An example of what I think is hyperbolic use of the term was around the named person legislation. Some opponents labled it as fascistic as it gave the state an enhanced (and unclear) role in relation to children. This is was argued represented the state determining and enforcing political norms and imposing them on children. My view FWIW is that it was well meaning legislation that collapsed under the weight of its own contradicions. While a link could be drawn to some fascist tenets, I don't see an arguable case that it was.

Do I think the Tories are right wing. Yup. Do I agree with their policies on refugees - no. But do I think they will promote a violent insurrection to stop them being emptied from power? No. I also think that they are not attracted to the managed capitalism that is a charactaristic of fascism. They are much to free market for that.

Turning to your point about how fascism is marshaled an attack in the trans debate, here's some examples:

https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-right-feminist-fascist-220810

https://ginnymcqueen.com/terfs-are-nazi-****/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/upcoming-panel-on-womens-rights-hateful-terfs-fascists-say-non-binary-councillors/

https://www.transadvocate.com/fascism-and-transphobia-are-always-linked_n_52458.htm

https://twitter.com/pickle_bee/status/1617190171765530624That's all very interesting and academic, grids and demarcations used to define what fascism is from a sort "Rule Book" type angle.

I don't define them that way. Fascists are gangsters who grab power in order to theive while playing people off each other as a distraction. Everything else, uniforms, stated political aims, manifestos - optional fripperies.

This lot, "the tory brexit crew" who took over their party in 2016, are cultural murderers, fiscal opportunists, cronyists, double-talkers, race-baiters, liars and have pulled off several economic heists in their short time and have barely had their fingers out of the public purse since taking over.

That's facsistic enough for me, although the dry academic angle is interesting.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Some people find the term CIS offensive: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/john-boyne-why-i-support-trans-rights-but-reject-the-word-cis-1.3843005

Also this is an interesting read: https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1618349747760410626

From your first link:


Many of these debates are being played out in the murky and discourteous world of Twitter, a place where adults go to scream at each other.

:greengrin

[He's here!]

But is it? I've been dipping my toe into some of the research around gender incongruence. There is an emerging body of work, eg. see link below, that brains as well as other parts of the body develop into masculine or feminine forms. And that there are biological mechanisms through which brain-sex may not match rest-of-body-sex. Simplistic anti-"woke" slogans are unlikely to be helpful.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm

This is not to say that the safety of female prisoners shouldn't be paramount, however, and my view is that in this situation it's quite right to isolate and assess anyone claiming to be trans. I would've thought any competent prison psychiatrist would be able to sort the actual transgender wheat from the at-it-for-nefarious-motives chaff pretty quickly?

Is pointing out biological reality a simplistic anti-woke statement?

That 'emerging body of work' you've linked to is interesting as far as it goes but doesn't as yet alter the fact that trans-women are all males. Until it does we're left with the more strident trans activists trying to persuade anyone who will listen that trans-women are women. Thanks to the bewildering Haldane ruling such a biological impossibility has been given credence and under the SG bill any man who states he's a woman would appear to become one in every sense once he picks up his/her GRC. We then enter a whole new mad world where women can literally be raped by other women. Little wonder Sturgeon was left lost for words when grilled on whether Bryson is a man or a woman.

[hibsbollah]

Is pointing out biological reality a simplistic anti-woke statement?

That 'emerging body of work' you've linked to is interesting as far as it goes but doesn't as yet alter the fact that trans-women are all males. Until it does we're left with the more strident trans activists trying to persuade anyone who will listen that trans-women are women. Thanks to the bewildering Haldane ruling such a biological impossibility has been given credence and under the SG bill any man who states he's a woman would appear to become one in every sense once he picks up his/her GRC - and we enter a whole new mad world where women can literally be raped by other women. Little wonder Sturgeon was left lost for words when grilled on whether Bryson is a man or a woman.

It’s really not on point, and the debate is getting further and further away, but please remember the desire of the rapist to rape the woman would been there regardless of whether the rapist had transitioned or not. All it should serve to do is remind us that it’s a sexual violence against women issue, not a trans issue.

[JeMeSouviens]

Is pointing out biological reality a simplistic anti-woke statement?

That 'emerging body of work' you've linked to is interesting as far as it goes but doesn't as yet alter the fact that trans-women are all males. Until it does we're left with the more strident trans activists trying to persuade anyone who will listen that trans-women are women. Thanks to the bewildering Haldane ruling such a biological impossibility has been given credence and under the SG bill any man who states he's a woman would appear to become one in every sense once he picks up his/her GRC. We then enter a whole new mad world where women can literally be raped by other women. Little wonder Sturgeon was left lost for words when grilled on whether Bryson is a man or a woman.

Did you read the article at the link?

There is likely a biological reality that someone with male sex organs can have a female brain and vice versa. Why would you stridently choose one biological reality over the other?

You come across on here as a good match for the description of Graham Linehan in archie's link:


while at worst he comes across as someone masking intolerance by promoting himself as a champion of women. And look, I may not be the world’s greatest authority on the latter, but one thing I know for sure is that women can look after themselves just fine and they don’t need a man to do the job for them.

In your case, I would contend, it's not much of a mask.

[archie]

A reasonable list of fascist identifiers. Id add to that Stigmatisation of vulnerable groups. Or 'Othering', in modern parlance. Particularly as part of a prolonged campaign. The intolerance of dissent. The criminalisation of protest, and the undermining of the legal profession to act as an arbiter or a 'check' on the excesses of the Government, the police, the military or whoever the state gives the legal right to apply violence. The eradication of power in other non government structures like independent journalism, trade unions, local government and other bastions of what we used to call 'civil society' when i was an undergraduate. (Im not sure where this word has gone but thats another topic). All identifiers that those that wield power in the current manifestation of the Tory party seem to be very comfortable with. And all identifiers that remind me of the direction of travel of the British state. (Theres a few other identifiers like the glorification of the Male, Sporting Glory, the Armed Forces and The Church that we used to see historically in Greece Spain and Italy but that become less relevant and some of these things are less relevant in society generally).

I agree that adopting a Rick from the Young Ones style hysterical finger pointing 'You Fascist!' position anytime you find something too dogmatic or authoritarian is wrong. However, its equally wrong to ignore flagrant undermining of civil liberties and other markers ive outlined above just because a fascist state hasn't yet been created. They rarely tell you theyre going to do it while theyre doing it, its an incremental process.

Back on the main topic. The links youve provided? A few barely read blogs and a tweet dont represent positions ive seen taken publicly very often, if ever, certainly not on here and certainly not by me. On the other side of the coin you have the vast majority of the mainstream media taking a hysterically anti trans position and blatantly equating trans people in the minds of millions, with sexual predation. Thats a massive power imbalance. You cant compare the two things. Apples and pears to coin a phrase.

Just to be clear, you may have missed what I said in my previous post. Lots of people (and i include the First Minister, and the legal profession in this) are trying to balance Two Conflicting Rights at the moment. (the rights of trans people, and the rights of women to retain women-only spaces, just to be clear) Its a very tricky balancing act and mistakes will and have been made. Accusing people that are genuinely trying to balance these Two Conflicting Rights, from whatever side, of being fascists when they arent, is misguided at best.

Thanks for the response. I actually think we are not too far apart on the issue. A couple of things I would reference. On the use of fascism as a throwaway term, I don't think it's a few hardly read blogs. Judith Butler, who I am sure you are aware of, has made the link. As for mainstream media, I would say that until recently there was overwhelming and fairly uncritical support for the trans position (ok maybe not the Telegraph). The use of pronouns to describe trans people (especially in the recent court case) has been largely uncontested until now.

[archie]

It’s really not on point, and the debate is getting further and further away, but please remember the desire of the rapist to rape the woman would been there regardless of whether the rapist had transitioned or not. All it should serve to do is remind us that it’s a sexual violence against women issue, not a trans issue.
I agree. I think that most on here have that view.

[archie]

Did you read the article at the link?

There is likely a biological reality that someone with male sex organs can have a female brain and vice versa. Why would you stridently choose one biological reality over the other?

You come across on here as a good match for the description of Graham Linehan in archie's link:



In your case, I would contend, it's not much of a mask.

What is a female brain?

[JeMeSouviens]

What is a female brain?

I assume you are as capable of using google as I am, but here's a summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences

[archie]

I assume you are as capable of using google as I am, but here's a summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences

I have come across Google, but I have never seen a reference to people having male sex organs and a female brain. I would think that would be highly contentious, given views about womens intellectual capacity that have been held until recently. There's a real tension with this approach. If society shapes gender then the idea that a 'lady brain' would determine gender becomes harder to defend. But anyway, having followed your advice to use Google this popped up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm#:~:text=%22Sex%20differences%20ar e%20sexy%2C%20but,that%20differ%20between%20the%20 sexes.

[hibby rae]

Ok, I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, it's possible that we may have different understanding of what fascism is. To my mind it is charactarised by:

- Authoritarianism and opposition to democratic processes
- Emphasis on managed capitalism
- Corporatism, as in the Italian model
- Political violence - particularly, but not exclusively, against opponents
- Populism, by which I mean the positioning of the leader as having the unique link to the people
- Strong role for the state in determining, and enforcing, political and social norms
- Suppression of opposing voices and control of the media.

FWIW I think that Donald Trump showed a number of these traits, but for me it was the refusal to accept the democratic process and the use of violence to secure that was fascistic behavior.

My concern is that simply labeling right wing policies as fascism, it diminishes the term and, paradoxically, makes us more inured to when it comes along. An example of what I think is hyperbolic use of the term was around the named person legislation. Some opponents labled it as fascistic as it gave the state an enhanced (and unclear) role in relation to children. This is was argued represented the state determining and enforcing political norms and imposing them on children. My view FWIW is that it was well meaning legislation that collapsed under the weight of its own contradicions. While a link could be drawn to some fascist tenets, I don't see an arguable case that it was.

Do I think the Tories are right wing. Yup. Do I agree with their policies on refugees - no. But do I think they will promote a violent insurrection to stop them being emptied from power? No. I also think that they are not attracted to the managed capitalism that is a charactaristic of fascism. They are much to free market for that.

Turning to your point about how fascism is marshaled an attack in the trans debate, here's some examples:

https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-right-feminist-fascist-220810

https://ginnymcqueen.com/terfs-are-nazi-****/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/upcoming-panel-on-womens-rights-hateful-terfs-fascists-say-non-binary-councillors/

https://www.transadvocate.com/fascism-and-transphobia-are-always-linked_n_52458.htm

https://twitter.com/pickle_bee/status/1617190171765530624

One of my lecturers at Ed Uni, historian, once said it's easier to say what a fascist isn't rather than what it is as there is no uniform definition and fascism varied from country to country (and within countries).

[JeMeSouviens]

I have come across Google, but I have never seen a reference to people having male sex organs and a female brain. I would think that would be highly contentious, given views about womens intellectual capacity that have been held until recently. There's a real tension with this approach. If society shapes gender then the idea that a 'lady brain' would determine gender becomes harder to defend. But anyway, having followed your advice to use Google this popped up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm#:~:text=%22Sex%20differences%20ar e%20sexy%2C%20but,that%20differ%20between%20the%20 sexes.

Fixing your link: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm

[hibby rae]

The responsible cabinet Secretary said on Wednesday: The simple fact is that, as I have said already, I trust the SPS to deal with this. On Thursday FM says: I will repeat some of what I have already said. Let me be clear: this prisoner is not going to be incarcerated in Cornton Vale, either short term or long term.

What is not at all clear is whether SPS reached the decision following a full assessment or not. It is unclear if FM is relaying a decision made by SPS. I don't know what happened (and to be fair, neither do you). But there is clearly a significant shift in the SG position from Wednesday to Thursday. How can the FM announce that the prisoner will never be in Cornton Vale if is is soley a matter for the SPS?

She discusses all this on the Newsagents podcast, which came out a couple hours ago and was recorded yesterday

[Keith_M]

I'm confused about this 'female brain' stuff. Is this the "women's brains are smaller" argument rearing it's ugly head again?

:tsk tsk:



I personally find it amazing that people are so desperate to back up their arguments that they're now trying to invent something called a 'female brain' when the real difference between a man and a woman is much easier to see... and a bit lower down. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

I have come across Google, but I have never seen a reference to people having male sex organs and a female brain. I would think that would be highly contentious, given views about womens intellectual capacity that have been held until recently. There's a real tension with this approach. If society shapes gender then the idea that a 'lady brain' would determine gender becomes harder to defend. But anyway, having followed your advice to use Google this popped up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm#:~:text=%22Sex%20differences%20ar e%20sexy%2C%20but,that%20differ%20between%20the%20 sexes.

More reading:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677918/
https://research.vu.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/91908548/complete+dissertation.pdf#page=76

Anecdotally from me, it would seem there clearly are generalised differences between male and female brains in sexual function, eg. physical attraction. But not intellectual capacity. I don't think it has to be contentious?

Anyway, I'm not claiming expertise in any of this. I set out for a half-arsed attempt to answer the question: is there a scientific biological underpinning to transgender? Or is is just made up woke ideology, blokes in dresses etc as the more excitable elements of twitter would have it? It appears pretty much conclusive to me that gender dysphoria/incongruence or whatever you want to call it is a real thing and I think it more likely than not that we will be able to explain in time.

But, wtfdik? I'm just a punter on a football forum.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm confused about this 'female brain' stuff. Is this the "women's brains are smaller" argument rearing it's ugly head again?

:tsk tsk:



I personally find it amazing that people are so desperate to back up their arguments that they're now trying to invent something called a 'female brain' when the real difference between a man and a woman is much easier to see... and a bit lower down. :wink:

I'm not trying to invent anything and, ime, women's intellectual capacity is not in question.

I personally find it amazing people are so small minded as to discount the possibility of different neurology when there are clearly sex-typical biological differences in many other areas of the body besides the "lower down", without attempting to look for what's being researched currently. But ho hum.

[James310]

I'm confused about this 'female brain' stuff. Is this the "women's brains are smaller" argument rearing it's ugly head again?

:tsk tsk:



I personally find it amazing that people are so desperate to back up their arguments that they're now trying to invent something called a 'female brain' when the real difference between a man and a woman is much easier to see... and a bit lower down. :wink:

I will repeat the JK Rowling quote, seems apt.

Men defining what a woman is, what women should and shouldn’t fear, what women should and shouldn’t say, what rights women should be fine with giving up and, of course, what constitutes ‘real’ misogyny: get a bloody mirror. That’s real misogyny, looking right back at you.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm not trying to invent anything and, ime, women's intellectual capacity is not in question.

I personally find it amazing people are so small minded as to discount the possibility of different neurology when there are clearly sex-typical biological differences in many other areas of the body besides the "lower down", without attempting to look for what's being researched currently. But ho hum.

Many see male/female brain as junk science but I think we can put it down to we don't know.

What is clear is the majority of trans groups are against the science and also the hunt for difference in genetics or brain function. I saw one trans group a few month ago equate it to the hunt for the gay gene.

They feared if there was a neurological test that says you were trans, then the people that failed the test as it were, would be called faking it. They say if you feel your trans you are and science shouldn't come into it. Whilst I think scientific discovery should happen I agree with them, if you want to be in another gender then that's enough.

People aren't faking it, they wouldn't go through the abuse for the sake of it. I'd welcome all rights bar a few caveats the infringe on women's rights. I think all but a few dinosaurs would agree

[147lothian]

The key phrase there being no official instruction was given. So we can all pretend that no ‘unofficial’ pressure was applied to save Government face. That’s how politics work, smoke and mirrors.

Exactly the reason there was a U-turn in the Isly Bryson case was because it gained international news coverage and was an embarrassment to the SG.

The reason nothing is done about the about Katie Dolatowski is because it never received anything like the same media coverage so its business as usual with the same stupid policy of housing prisoners according to how they identify rather than the reality of biological sex.

I don't think either Isly Bryson or Katie Dolatowski are genuine trans people they are playing the system, Katie Dolatowski is a male pedophile who identifies as a women in order to gain access to women only spaces, like supermarket female toilets to prey of female children.

Katie Dolatowski is male but identifies as a women, and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Halbeath Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into the female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her.

This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds and a women only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after a physical assault on a fellow male inmate there has been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison-service-criticised-for-moving-trans-woman-katie-dolatowski-to-cornton-vale

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not trying to invent anything and, ime, women's intellectual capacity is not in question.

I personally find it amazing people are so small minded as to discount the possibility of different neurology when there are clearly sex-typical biological differences in many other areas of the body besides the "lower down", without attempting to look for what's being researched currently. But ho hum.

Interesting that at least one of the academics involved is female, which helps to remove any accusations of gender-based bias.

[marinello59]

I'm not trying to invent anything and, ime, women's intellectual capacity is not in question.

I personally find it amazing people are so small minded as to discount the possibility of different neurology when there are clearly sex-typical biological differences in many other areas of the body besides the "lower down", without attempting to look for what's being researched currently. But ho hum.

Good post. If we all keep an open mind there’s more chance of bringing people together.

[He's here!]

Did you read the article at the link?

There is likely a biological reality that someone with male sex organs can have a female brain and vice versa. Why would you stridently choose one biological reality over the other?

You come across on here as a good match for the description of Graham Linehan in archie's link:



In your case, I would contend, it's not much of a mask.

Nothing strident about my choice. It's the biological reality we know. The 'female brain and vice versa' research is a long way from being that.

As for your quote, if you don't think a man can empathise with women's rights, how do you feel about a woman saying the same thing?:

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1618978379621076992?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[CapitalGreen]

I will repeat the JK Rowling quote, seems apt.

Men defining what a woman is, what women should and shouldn’t fear, what women should and shouldn’t say, what rights women should be fine with giving up and, of course, what constitutes ‘real’ misogyny: get a bloody mirror. That’s real misogyny, looking right back at you.

Very apt quote John, I’ve often seen posters on this thread telling women how they should think/feel about these issues…


If I was a woman artist I would be pretty annoyed at this.

[Kato]

Very apt quote John, I’ve often seen posters on this thread telling women how they should think/feel about these issues…My guess is apples and oranges.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Lester B]

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Wild how no one has commented on the Scottish Trans Alliance statement yet. Couldn't be more relevant and actually re-assuring to all sides.

[Stairway 2 7]

Wild how no one has commented on the Scottish Trans Alliance statement yet. Couldn't be more relevant and actually re-assuring to all sides.

They pretty much say Katie Dolatowski is in the wrong prison and should be moved

[Kato]

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.Yes

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.

Yes.

[Lester B]

Yes

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Thanks for responding. And does this knowledge make a difference to your views on the trans debate?

[Lester B]

Yes.

Thanks. Sorry to repeat myself but does this knowledge make a difference to your views on the trans debate?

[AgentDaleCooper]

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.

Yes, and it definitely informs how i think about the issue. I think in their cases it would just feel totally wrong to me (not to mention them) to refer to them as men, and I think they would all be vulnerable in the extreme if they for some reason found themselves in a men's prison. From what i have gathered, gender dysphoria is an absolutely brutal condition.

[Lester B]

Yes

Ta! Sorry;same question as above

[AgentDaleCooper]

They pretty much say Katie Dolatowski is in the wrong prison and should be moved

as in they think she should be moved back to a men's prison?

[Lester B]

Yes, and it definitely informs how i think about the issue. I think in their cases it would just feel totally wrong to me (not to mention them) to refer to them as men, and I think they would all be vulnerable in the extreme if they for some reason found themselves in a men's prison. From what i have gathered, gender dysphoria is an absolutely brutal condition.

Sorry. You edited that. I agree entirely. It has been an education for me and I couldn't be more pro trans people now. A trans woman I know never seemed comfortable in their own skin before they came out. Now they are. They've been subject to some quite appalling abuse online which nearly broke them but thankfully not. They are now who they want to be and have my unqualified support. And to reply to your other post here too the STA statement absolutely and totally hits the mark!

[CropleyWasGod]

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.

Yes, a few

And a trans man.

It's been said before, but most of us will encounter trans people without necessarily knowing.

[Moulin Yarns]

I have come across Google, but I have never seen a reference to people having male sex organs and a female brain. I would think that would be highly contentious, given views about womens intellectual capacity that have been held until recently. There's a real tension with this approach. If society shapes gender then the idea that a 'lady brain' would determine gender becomes harder to defend. But anyway, having followed your advice to use Google this popped up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm#:~:text=%22Sex%20differences%20ar e%20sexy%2C%20but,that%20differ%20between%20the%20 sexes.

My 10 years old grand nephew plays with dolls, no interest in cars or anything boys are supposed to be interested in.

I think he has a female brain.

[Lester B]

Yes, a few

And a trans man.

It's been said before, but most of us will encounter trans people without necessarily knowing.

Good point about meeting without knowing. I've never knowingly met a trans man actually. Must have though as I talk to everyone I meet! Have known a few trans women. They're definitely women!!!

[LewysGot2]

Good point about meeting without knowing. I've never knowingly met a trans man actually. Must have though as I talk to everyone I meet! Have known a few trans women. They're definitely women!!!

What makes them 'definitely women'?

[Stairway 2 7]

as in they think she should be moved back to a men's prison?

ScottishTrans
·
7h
It is our view that anyone who has committed sexually violent crimes, and who poses a risk to women, should not be housed with women on the female estate

[Lester B]

What makes them women?

Have you met them? They identify as women, they suffer from gender dysphoria and they have a GRC.

You're going to tell me differently I take it. Have a go. I look forward to it

[Stairway 2 7]

I know one trans female and two trans men, one I would call my pal

I don't now but at first occasionally called him his female name. I would shrivel and apologise and he would just laugh at me. He said his mum still forgets and he doesn't care. He cares if people say offensive things about his transition. He also said the NHS is a joke regarding transitioning. Waiting list is enormous so he paid a massive amount for top surgery. Will save up then get bottom surgery

[Lester B]

I know one trans female and two trans men, one I would call my pal

I don't now but at first occasionally called him his female name. I would shrivel and apologise and he would just laugh at me. He said his mum still forgets and he doesn't care. He cares if people say offensive things about his transition. He also said the NHS is a joke regarding transitioning. Waiting list is enormous so he paid a massive amount for top surgery. Will save up then get bottom surgery

I did that name thing once. Still cringe about it. They were cool about it. Said in the grand scheme of things it was nothing. You can bet I've never done it again :wink:

[LewysGot2]

Have you met them? They identify as women, they suffer from gender dysphoria and they have a GRC.

You're going to tell me differently I take it. Have a go. I look forward to it

It was a question in good faith.

Your use of the word "definitely" was what interested me.

The whole issue is so complex, I think most people are uncertain or unclear about many aspects of the topic . "Definitely" is interesting use of language.

I guess it's just your level of conviction. That's okay.

[Lester B]

It was a question in good faith.

Your use of the word "definitely" was what interested me.

The whole issue is so complex, I think most people are uncertain or unclear about many aspects of the topic . "Definitely" is interesting use of language.

I guess it's just your level of conviction. That's okay.

Fair play and apologies for being defensive on the subject. I think you have to honour someone's choice, feelings and core beliefs to support a trans friend. I guess anything short of definitely seems weak to me.

Thanks for such a positive response

[marinello59]

Thanks. Sorry to repeat myself but does this knowledge make a difference to your views on the trans debate?

I’m not so sure it does. I find a lot of the debate confusing. :greengrin

It’s simple for me, I’ll respect and support the right of anybody to identify as they want. Why would any of us want another human being feel unable to live the life they feel they were meant to live? I think the majority of us feel the same, hence this well intended legislation which really does come from a good place. I think after the fuss has died down we will have this legislation or something very similar in force throughout the whole UK.

The extreme views on either side and the extremely rare situations we see highlighted to make a point ? That’s where I struggle.

[archie]

One of my lecturers at Ed Uni, historian, once said it's easier to say what a fascist isn't rather than what it is as there is no uniform definition and fascism varied from country to country (and within countries). There's a lot in that. Salazar in Portugal is an example. He was a fascist who despised Hitler, much of it to do with religion. He also didn't pose around in a uniform. But fascist he was

[archie]

More reading:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677918/
https://research.vu.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/91908548/complete+dissertation.pdf#page=76

Anecdotally from me, it would seem there clearly are generalised differences between male and female brains in sexual function, eg. physical attraction. But not intellectual capacity. I don't think it has to be contentious?

Anyway, I'm not claiming expertise in any of this. I set out for a half-arsed attempt to answer the question: is there a scientific biological underpinning to transgender? Or is is just made up woke ideology, blokes in dresses etc as the more excitable elements of twitter would have it? It appears pretty much conclusive to me that gender dysphoria/incongruence or whatever you want to call it is a real thing and I think it more likely than not that we will be able to explain in time.

But, wtfdik? I'm just a punter on a football forum.
With reference to your last point, I think there is an inverse relationship between activity on the Holy Ground and activity with Hibs signings!

[archie]

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.
Not directly, but a close family member supported a colleague through a physical transition. Clearly this was the right thing for them. I asked the family member how they felt their colleague would have responded to the current debate. They would have found it difficult, but they were also horrified by the aggressive pro trans stuff that passes for debate - the suck my lady **** stuff.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Not directly, but a close family member supported a colleague through a physical transition. Clearly this was the right thing for them. I asked the family member how they felt their colleague would have responded to the current debate. They would have found it difficult, but they were also horrified by the aggressive pro trans stuff that passes for debate - the suck my lady **** stuff.

yeah, this is what every trans person I know feels as well - it's one of these horrible situations where the loudest, most obnoxious people seem to ended up defining the whole debate, and it's difficult for anyone not to react to one of these extremes to some extent.

i definitely also think that some of the 'pro-trans' stuff has been absolutely misogynistic, and probably used as an excuse by male tossers to vent their spleen at women. this is partly why i find it difficult to nail my colours to any mast - ultimately, i'm a CIS male without any skin in the game. I wish folk like Graham Linehan would butt out an aw though. I really don't think J.K. Rowling has been helpful either tbh - both have them have just been lobbing grenades in every so often, with Rowling occasionally giving some context to her views, which is helpful...but doesn't negate that she's been otherwise rather destructive.

[archie]

I’m not so sure it does. I find a lot of the debate confusing. :greengrin

It’s simple for me, I’ll respect and support the right of anybody to identify as they want. Why would any of us want another human being feel unable to live the life they feel they were meant to live? I think the majority of us feel the same, hence this well intended legislation which really does come from a good place. I think after the fuss has died down we will have this legislation or something very similar in force throughout the whole UK.

The extreme views on either side and the extremely rare situations we see highlighted to make a point ? That’s where I struggle.

Hibsbollah made the point earlier that it's an issue of clashing rights. Personally I think much of the problem is the vagueness around the definition of what it is to be trans.

[archie]

yeah, this is what every trans person I know feels as well - it's one of these horrible situations where the loudest, most obnoxious people seem to ended up defining the whole debate, and it's difficult for anyone not to react to one of these extremes to some extent.

i definitely also think that some of the 'pro-trans' stuff has been absolutely misogynistic, and probably used as an excuse by male tossers to vent their spleen at women. this is partly why i find it difficult to nail my colours to any mast - ultimately, i'm a CIS male without any skin in the game. I wish folk like Graham Linehan would butt out an aw though. I really don't think J.K. Rowling has been helpful either tbh - both have them have just been lobbing grenades in every so often, with Rowling occasionally giving some context to her views, which is helpful...but doesn't negate that she's been otherwise rather destructive.
I can see the point about Graham Linehan, but I think that's most unfair to JK Rowling

[AgentDaleCooper]

I can see the point about Graham Linehan, but I think that's most unfair to JK Rowling

i mean, she wrote an entire book where the villain is a man in a dress. she was maybe trying to make a point about opportunistic male sexual predators, but it really wasn't a very constructive thing to do.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Hibsbollah made the point earlier that it's an issue of clashing rights. Personally I think much of the problem is the vagueness around the definition of what it is to be trans.

i can understand why this seems to be a problem in terms of the debate, but it actually hasn't been in any consequential way. the key issue ought to be safeguarding, and measure seem to be in place, certainly in prisons. there's the whole 'well why was she put in a women's prison in the first place' thing, but without knowing the details, there's probably got to be some default while they carry out the risk assessments, which probably involve a lot of paperwork. i think a default being 'well they're presenting as a woman, so we'll treat them as a woman, but in such a way that doesn't put anyone in harms way, until we've carried out the necessary legal procedures' makes perfect sense.

[archie]

i mean, she wrote an entire book where the villain is a man in a dress. she was maybe trying to make a point about opportunistic male sexual predators, but it really wasn't a very constructive thing to do.

I keep reading stuff the JKR is transphobic, but I've yet to see anything that actually is.

[He's here!]

I keep reading stuff the JKR is transphobic, but I've yet to see anything that actually is.

And you never will. Because she's not.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I keep reading stuff the JKR is transphobic, but I've yet to see anything that actually is.

i don't think she actually is, in terms of whether she is actively anti-trans...i'm absolutely sure that she doesn't see herself as that. same goes for linehan, actually. it's to do with how they've contributed to the conversation that's been going on, though. focusing too much on what the definition of 'woman' or 'man' etc. is, and not really on actual evidence of reasons for concern. this recent thing in the media has turned out to be a complete red herring, but they have helped to frame the debate in a way that makes finding common ground much harder. they haven't been as bad as jordan peterson and his ilk, nor have they been as bad as some of the pro-trans people on twitter...but JKR hasn't been constructive at all, IMO.

[Glory Lurker]

Too many folk in our mediascape with loud voices trying to call the shots, citing depraved extremes to make a point about a life experience they haven't got a clue about, helping to stoke a stigma that shouldn't exist.

Under the noise, people are dealing with an existential crisis. They deserve better than this.

[AgentDaleCooper]

And you never will. Because she's not.

she has, however, been pretty unconstructive to the debate at several turns. i'm absolutely not blamer her for the abuse she's got, but she's also contributed negatively to a lot of trans peoples' lives throughout this whole debacle, by writing books about murderous dress-wearing men and talking in a way that, at the very least, implied that trans women are not women. given her profile, she's not exactly been careful.

all the twitter stuff is just ridiculous, i've never had an account myself, but she's liked/followed/retweeted a pretty explicitly, horrifically transphobic person lately - essentially giving a platform to someone who openly hates trans people. whether this is a mistake or not, i don't know, i don't believe that she herself, in her heart of hearts, feel ill thoughts towards people because they have changed their gender - i just think she's got some dodgy views, bad ways of communicating them, and been a bit drunk on her twitter influence.

in short, not a bad person, but probably a harmful person in this context.

[Lester B]

And you never will. Because she's not.

Define transphobic. And if she isn’t, who is?

[Stairway 2 7]

Define transphobic. And if she isn’t, who is?

Is saying trans women aren't women transphobic. That's surely ridiculous. I'd say people who say hateful things to trans people as a group are transphobic. You might disagree withthem but surely people can say there is a biological difference that doesn't disappear with a bit of paper

[Lester B]

Is saying trans women aren't women transphobic. That's surely ridiculous. I'd say people who say hateful things to trans people as a group are transphobic. You might disagree withthem but surely people can say there is a biological difference that doesn't disappear with a bit of paper

Why are you arguing with me about something I haven’t said? Rowling uses her public profile to suggest that trans women are a threat to women. Demonising any minority to marginalise them and deny them rights? That’s a phobia.

[Lester B]

Too many folk in our mediascape with loud voices trying to call the shots, citing depraved extremes to make a point about a life experience they haven't got a clue about, helping to stoke a stigma that shouldn't exist.

Under the noise, people are dealing with an existential crisis. They deserve better than this.

Superb post. Wish I’d written that.

[Stairway 2 7]

Why are you arguing with me about something I haven’t said? Rowling uses her public profile to suggest that trans women are a threat to women. Demonising any minority to marginalise them and deny them rights? That’s a phobia.

She hasn't. She has said women deserve there own space from biological males in certain situations. She hasn't said trans are more likely to rape people than men, that would be transphobic.

[hibsbollah]

Too many folk in our mediascape with loud voices trying to call the shots, citing depraved extremes to make a point about a life experience they haven't got a clue about, helping to stoke a stigma that shouldn't exist.

Under the noise, people are dealing with an existential crisis. They deserve better than this.

Excellent and to the point.

[Lester B]

She hasn't. She has said women deserve there own space from biological males in certain situations. She hasn't said trans are more likely to rape people than men, that would be transphobic.

Have you read her series of public pronouncements on the subject? I have never ever suggested that she has said trans women are more likely to rape than men. An absurd suggestion. Again you appear to be arguing against something I, and no one else as far as I can make out, has said.

[Santa Cruz]

Too many folk in our mediascape with loud voices trying to call the shots, citing depraved extremes to make a point about a life experience they haven't got a clue about, helping to stoke a stigma that shouldn't exist.

Under the noise, people are dealing with an existential crisis. They deserve better than this.

Yeah agree. I suspect this is going to drag on for some time though now it has become a political battle. In the meantime while Politicans from all parties try to work on solutions to address the valid concerns raised, they should also be speaking directly and publicly to the marginalised trans community to reassure them they will not be forgotten and reinforce the message any predjucice shown from a very small % towards them will be dealt with firmly in the courts.

[Stairway 2 7]

Have you read her series of public pronouncements on the subject? I have never ever suggested that she has said trans women are more likely to rape than men. An absurd suggestion. Again you appear to be arguing against something I, and no one else as far as I can make out, has said.

You have said she's transphobic. From what I've read I've seen zero evidence.

[Lester B]

You have said she's transphobic. From what I've read I've seen zero evidence.

Shall we start with a full novel where a psychopath dresses as a woman to kill women? That's a dog whistle with bells on frankly

[Stairway 2 7]

Shall we start with a full novel where a psychopath dresses as a woman to kill women? That's a dog whistle with bells on frankly

The defenders say transvestitism hardly features in the book, he puts on a wig to trick a woman into a van but he isn't a trans person. I've not read it but neither has most of the people calling it trans.

Probably stupid given all the furore and hate she gets

[Lester B]

The defenders say transvestitism hardly features in the book, he puts on a wig to trick a woman into a van but he isn't a trans person. I've not read it but neither has most of the people calling it trans.

Probably stupid given all the furore and hate she gets

On the contrary. Quite smart on her behalf. She can't make the villain a trans women. That's too clumsy. But the suggestion is there and speaks to certain hymn sheet.

She's pretty smart. You don't make billions from peddling third rate Tolkien without some nous

[He's here!]

Why are you arguing with me about something I haven’t said? Rowling uses her public profile to suggest that trans women are a threat to women. Demonising any minority to marginalise them and deny them rights? That’s a phobia.

She has never 'demonised' trans people nor has she suggested bona fide trans people are a threat to women. If anything she's supportive of their right to live the life they want.

[Lester B]

She has never 'demonised' trans people nor has she suggested bona fide trans people are a threat to women. If anything she's supportive of their right to live the life they want.

Well it was about time the lead apologist showed up.

Need to get some stuff sorted here but as a starter for ten. Define bona fide. And do you know any trans people personally?

[AgentDaleCooper]

She has never 'demonised' trans people nor has she suggested bona fide trans people are a threat to women. If anything she's supportive of their right to live the life they want.

Do you think the book was constructive? Can you see how it might contribute to negativity towards trans people?

[Stairway 2 7]

Do you think the book was constructive? Can you see how it might contribute to negativity towards trans people?

Have you read it. From what I can see he was a cis straight male. I've not read it so wouldn't defend that view

[Kato]

Thanks for responding. And does this knowledge make a difference to your views on the trans debate?It does make a difference in that I don't recognise the people I know within the way the debate is being weighted, especially the last few weeks on here. I say that as someone who doesn't see much the debate on my twitter feed and has never had a Facebook page, so this, narrow but informed, thread is the main place I see it being discussed.

There are some fantastic, educational and empathetic discussions within this thread but the last weeks gives the impression of a few posters attempting to build a distorted word cloud.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Lester B]

It does make a difference in that I don't recognise the people I know within the way the debate is being weighted, especially the last few weeks on here. I say that as someone who doesn't see much the debate on my twitter feed and has never had a Facebook page, so this, narrow but informed, thread is the main place I see it being discussed.

There are some fantastic, educational and empathetic discussions within this thread but the last weeks gives the impression of a few posters attempting to build a distorted word cloud.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Can’t just let this one pass without a thank you for such an eloquent considered response

I hope I’m not one of those in that word cloud and apologies if I am

[hibby rae]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cn7AM2NIMEL/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Kato]

Can’t just let this one pass without a thank you for such an eloquent considered response

I hope I’m not one of those in that word cloud and apologies if I amWe would all be on a word cloud I guess, the frequency of words and assertions would, IMHO, look horrific.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cn7AM2NIMEL/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

She talking about Joanna Cherry? There's ********s and opportunistic people on both sides, but that shouldn't be used deliberately to distract from the real debate on women's and trans rights

[He's here!]

Do you think the book was constructive? Can you see how it might contribute to negativity towards trans people?

Which book?

[hibby rae]

She talking about Joanna Cherry? There's ********s and opportunistic people on both sides, but that shouldn't be used deliberately to distract from the real debate on women's and trans rights

No she's not. More likely some Tories and right wingers in the media.

The whole 40 min interview is a good listen

[Lester B]

She talking about Joanna Cherry? There's ********s and opportunistic people on both sides, but that shouldn't be used deliberately to distract from the real debate on women's and trans rights

No she isn’t. Not remotely

[Lester B]

Which book?

Troubled Blood. Published in 2020

[He's here!]

Troubled Blood. Published in 2020

Haven't read it so can't comment. I'm not actually a fan of her fiction, hugely successful as it is - and she's due a lot of credit for keeping kids reading.

What's transphobic about this particular book?

[LewysGot2]

She talking about Joanna Cherry? There's ********s and opportunistic people on both sides, but that shouldn't be used deliberately to distract from the real debate on women's and trans rights

I don’t think she is talking about Cherry?

As I don’t think anyone can say Cherry isn’t a long term and vocal activist in the arena of women’s rights.

Suspect it’s others who are pro-life, anti-choice she’s alluding to?

You're right that there’s unhelpful activists at both extreme poles of the debate. Those where the debate is not shades of grey but monochromatic, unyielding and intolerant.

Anyhow, Hibs are at home and this will still be trundling on later….I’m away to torture myself at Easter Road again :greengrin

[Lester B]

Haven't read it so can't comment. I'm not actually a fan of her fiction, hugely successful as it is - and she's due a lot of credit for keeping kids reading.

What's transphobic about this particular book?

See recent posts. Or are you being deliberately obtuse?

[AgentDaleCooper]

Have you read it. From what I can see he was a cis straight male. I've not read it so wouldn't defend that view

i have not read it, and i know this might sound stupid, but IMO this is genuinely a case where one doesn't need to have read the book to comment on it, because the details of the book are not the thing that will make a cultural impact - hardly anyone will read it outside of her devotees, and the discourse on this issue has long been stripped of any nuance. it's the fact that she has written a book in which a murderous man puts on a dress and kills women. as i've said in my previous posts, there's only one way that's going to be interpreted by a lot of people, particularly when she has been arguing repeatedly that trans women are not women.

to reiterate, i don't think she is transphobic in her intentions, but i think she is at best naïve in terms of her actions and how she has contributed to the debate.

[He's here!]

i have not read it, and i know this might sound stupid, but IMO this is genuinely a case where one doesn't need to have read the book to comment on it, because the details of the book are not the thing that will make a cultural impact - hardly anyone will read it outside of her devotees, and the discourse on this issue has long been stripped of any nuance. it's the fact that she has written a book in which a murderous man puts on a dress and kills women. as i've said in my previous posts, there's only one way that's going to be interpreted by a lot of people, particularly when she has been arguing repeatedly that trans women are not women.

to reiterate, i don't think she is transphobic in her intentions, but i think she is at best naïve in terms of her actions and how she has contributed to the debate.

Women dressing as men and vice-versa is a device as old as it gets when it comes to books, films and television. Rowling is hardly breaking new ground here.

I don't think it's true to say you can pass judgement on any book or film without having read or watched it yourself.

[He's here!]

Too many folk in our mediascape with loud voices trying to call the shots, citing depraved extremes to make a point about a life experience they haven't got a clue about, helping to stoke a stigma that shouldn't exist.

Under the noise, people are dealing with an existential crisis. They deserve better than this.

This is likely to kick things off again:

https://news.sky.com/story/fresh-trans-prisoner-row-as-girls-stalker-approved-for-move-to-womens-jail-12797405

[Hibrandenburg]

I’m not so sure it does. I find a lot of the debate confusing. :greengrin

It’s simple for me, I’ll respect and support the right of anybody to identify as they want. Why would any of us want another human being feel unable to live the life they feel they were meant to live? I think the majority of us feel the same, hence this well intended legislation which really does come from a good place. I think after the fuss has died down we will have this legislation or something very similar in force throughout the whole UK.

The extreme views on either side and the extremely rare situations we see highlighted to make a point ? That’s where I struggle.

Good post.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/AshtenRegan/status/1619285644345503746

[AgentDaleCooper]

https://twitter.com/AshtenRegan/status/1619285644345503746

really can't see that happening, the government are bound to step in.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1619358295852208129?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[archie]

really can't see that happening, the government are bound to step in.

Why? If trans women are women why should they?

[He's here!]

Why? If trans women are women why should they?

Indeed. If a bloke putting on a wig is enough to see him referred to as 'she' during his rape trial (and even more absurdly have his genitalia referred to as 'her p***s') then what's the problem?

[AgentDaleCooper]

Why? If trans women are women why should they?

Because they are trans women with a sexually violent history towards cis women...not too complicated IMO.

[archie]

Because they are trans women with a sexually violent history towards cis women...not too complicated IMO.But it really is complicated. There would be no question of putting a violent woman into a mens prison. Why would you put a trans woman into a mens prison?

[James310]

UN Special Rapporteur on Torture says common sense should prevail in Scotland. Imagine the UN saying that a few months ago, people would wonder what on earth was going on.

https://twitter.com/DrAliceJEdwards/status/1619579182245347330?t=IThvHhGSjkeTGgEGPCyznw&s=19

[He's here!]

UN Special Rapporteur on Torture says common sense should prevail in Scotland. Imagine the UN saying that a few months ago, people would wonder what on earth was going on.

https://twitter.com/DrAliceJEdwards/status/1619579182245347330?t=IThvHhGSjkeTGgEGPCyznw&s=19

The UN did intervene re the SG bill a few months ago IIRC but Sturgeon dismissed their concerns. Or is that what you mean? I may be misreading your post.

[He's here!]

Because they are trans women with a sexually violent history towards cis women...not too complicated IMO.

This 'cis' terminology is another thing that bamboozles me. Why foist it on those whose gender is already covered by existing terminology. All it does is over-complicate things unnecessarily.

[James310]

The UN did intervene re the SG bill a few months ago IIRC but Sturgeon dismissed their concerns. Or is that what you mean? I may be misreading your post.

They did but it was ignored, but I think there was another UN specialist who was supportive. I think the fact the UN Special Rapporteur for Torture is weighing in is quite something. I mean imagine if a few months ago someone said the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture is advising the SG to show some common sense people would be going WTF is that about.

[AgentDaleCooper]

This 'cis' terminology is another thing that bamboozles me. Why foist it on those whose gender is already covered by existing terminology. All it does is over-complicate things unnecessarily.

it's only bamboozling if you aren't willing to acknowledge trans women as women.

'cis' literally just means the opposite of 'trans'. it's used in conversation where a distinction is needed.

[AgentDaleCooper]

But it really is complicated. There would be no question of putting a violent woman into a mens prison. Why would you put a trans woman into a mens prison?

you would put a trans woman into a men's prison if they had a history of sexually predatory or violent behaviour towards women, because a) not doing so would potentially re-traumatise a very significant number of the female prison population, and b) to prevent disingenuous/opportunistic transitions of gender...those are just two reasons off the top of my head.

i thought it was really complicated too, but that's because it's not really possible to come up with a hard and fast rule to cover every scenario.

a pragmatic, case by case approach seems entirely the best way forward to me.

for the record, this Tiffany Scott person seems like she shouldn't be moved to a woman's prison IMO, though I don't know much of the details.

[CropleyWasGod]

you would put a trans woman into a men's prison if they had a history of sexually predatory or violent behaviour towards women, because a) not doing so would potentially re-traumatise a very significant number of the female prison population, and b) to prevent disingenuous/opportunistic transitions of gender...those are just two reasons off the top of my head.

i thought it was really complicated too, but that's because it's not really possible to come up with a hard and fast rule to cover every scenario.

a pragmatic, case by case approach seems entirely the best way forward to me.

for the record, this Tiffany Scott person seems like she shouldn't be moved to a woman's prison IMO, though I don't know much of the details.

The case-by-case approach has been the way it's been for years. Despite the headlines, this isn't going to change under the proposed GRRA.

[archie]

you would put a trans woman into a men's prison if they had a history of sexually predatory or violent behaviour towards women, because a) not doing so would potentially re-traumatise a very significant number of the female prison population, and b) to prevent disingenuous/opportunistic transitions of gender...those are just two reasons off the top of my head.

i thought it was really complicated too, but that's because it's not really possible to come up with a hard and fast rule to cover every scenario.

a pragmatic, case by case approach seems entirely the best way forward to me.

for the record, this Tiffany Scott person seems like she shouldn't be moved to a woman's prison IMO, though I don't know much of the details.

By doing that you are accepting that trans women are women doesn't apply in all cases. Am I right?

[He's here!]

it's only bamboozling if you aren't willing to acknowledge trans women as women.

'cis' literally just means the opposite of 'trans'. it's used in conversation where a distinction is needed.

A clear distinction is already there: Women and trans-women (all trans-women being male).

[archie]

The case-by-case approach has been the way it's been for years. Despite the headlines, this isn't going to change under the proposed GRRA.I accept that this has happened under existing legislation (though applied differently down south). What GRA legislation does, however, is remove any external engagement in the process of getting a GRC. I think if a prisoner had a GRC and was refused access to a facility in line with their GRC, then they could have recourse to a judicial review. That's where the case by case basis might fall down, especially after the haldane judgement. But we will see. For what it's worth, I wonder if 'Isla Bryson' could also have recourse to a judicial review on the grounds of the apparent political interference in the decision.

[AgentDaleCooper]

By doing that you are accepting that trans women are women doesn't apply in all cases. Am I right?

i think this is the problem - you are more interested in the question of semantics and whether or not you are right than you are in the discussion of safeguarding the rights of cis women and trans women alike.

and no, you're not right - but that doesn't actually matter.

[AgentDaleCooper]

A clear distinction is already there: Women and trans-women (all trans-women being male).

aaaaand there we go. you're a transphobe :aok:

i don't know if you answered the previous question - do you know any trans people?

i know a few trans woman and a trans man, and calling them a man or woman respectively would just seem utterly wrong on every level to me, because i actually know them as people and not as some abstract entity to argue the toss about on the internet.

[Kato]

i know a few trans woman and a trans man, and calling them a man or woman respectively would just seem utterly wrong on every level to me, because i actually know them as people and not as some abstract entity to argue the toss about on the internet.

Where I'm at.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

aaaaand there we go. you're a transphobe :aok:

i don't know if you answered the previous question - do you know any trans people?

i know a few trans woman and a trans man, and calling them a man or woman respectively would just seem utterly wrong on every level to me, because i actually know them as people and not as some abstract entity to argue the toss about on the internet.

Why is that transphobic? Plenty of trans-women will comfortably acknowledge they are male.

I worked with two trans-women at an arts festival a few summers back. One was a difficult person to be around and I didn't actually know he was a trans-woman until somebody else mentioned it. The other was a popular member of the team and never made any attempt claim he was anything other than a trans-woman. I don't recall ever having to use a particular pronoun as he was simply called by his name but in that case (ie that of a bona fide trans-woman, not male prisoners trying to game the system) I'd have gone with 'her' no problem.

[archie]

i think this is the problem - you are more interested in the question of semantics and whether or not you are right than you are in the discussion of safeguarding the rights of cis women and trans women alike.

and no, you're not right - but that doesn't actually matter.
It's not semantics. The general fuzzyness around definitions creates real problems for legislation and its implementation in the real world. That has serious implications for women and trans women. If you say that 'trans women are women' but then say not in that case, there has to be clear critera for making that decision. Otherwise it falls apart and becomes a real legal mess.

[AgentDaleCooper]

It's not semantics. The general fuzzyness around definitions creates real problems for legislation and its implementation in the real world. That has serious implications for women and trans women. If you say that 'trans women are women' but then say not in that case, there has to be clear critera for making that decision. Otherwise it falls apart and becomes a real legal mess.

So you don't think that 'trans' and 'cis' are a clear distinction?

Do you disagree with case-by-case risk assessment as a basic way of dealing with the issue?

[archie]

So you don't think that 'trans' and 'cis' are a clear distinction?

Do you disagree with case-by-case risk assessment as a basic way of dealing with the issue?

Firstly, your use of CIS is offensive to many people. Secondly, the definition of trans is so vague that it makes its use extremely problematic. And that has led to the need for a case by case risk assessement. But using that logic, there will have to be a case by case risk assessment for prisons, hospitals, homelessness units, domestic violence centres, changing rooms and so on. That's clearly untenable. My view would be that if we had a clearer definition of trans and an honest discussion about the interaction with same sex services, then it would be more solid ground for going forward.

[LewysGot2]

Firstly, your use of CIS is offensive to many people. Secondly, the definition of trans is so vague that it makes its use extremely problematic. And that has led to the need for a case by case risk assessement. But using that logic, there will have to be a case by case risk assessment for prisons, hospitals, homelessness units, domestic violence centres, changing rooms and so on. That's clearly untenable. My view would be that if we had a clearer definition of trans and an honest discussion about the interaction with same sex services, then it would be more solid ground for going forward.

I've heard a number of female acquaintances and friends say they don't "identify as women" they just "are" and would not wish to classify themselves as anything other than biologically female. The common themes from them include their lived experiences being hugely impacted by the biology of menstruation, child birth, miscarriage, sexual assault and menopause. I don't believe any of these thoughtful and reflective individuals to be anything phobic.

Many of them would describe the use of cis to describe themselves as compelled speech. I'm pretty certain that's also one of Joanna Cherrys concerns, too.

You also touch on the idea that the term trans is far reaching and, if we're going to start using chemistry terms to describe aspects of the discussion, they're not a homogeneous group - except in one core aspect of their lives.

Can I ask, in good faith, when you say "bona fide" trans are you meaning those individuals with acknowledged gender dysphoria? I have been interpreting your use of this to imply that - apologies if I have been mistaken. This would exclude AGP individuals from your definition- and bad faith actors such as the recent individuals trying to game the system for whatever reason.

Can you maybe clarify? Thank you

[AgentDaleCooper]

Firstly, your use of CIS is offensive to many people. Secondly, the definition of trans is so vague that it makes its use extremely problematic. And that has led to the need for a case by case risk assessement. But using that logic, there will have to be a case by case risk assessment for prisons, hospitals, homelessness units, domestic violence centres, changing rooms and so on. That's clearly untenable. My view would be that if we had a clearer definition of trans and an honest discussion about the interaction with same sex services, then it would be more solid ground for going forward.

r.e. the bit in bold - many people find the phrase 'black lives matter' offensive. that is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the intention of the language, wilful or otherwise.

The term 'cis' is a Latin term used to denote 'always having been on the same side', as opposed to 'trans'. the terms have no function other than to include a vulnerable group of people into a discussion on their terms. many women - most that i know - have absolutely zero issue with this. i obviously can't speak for women, but i thought the man in that article that you posted was being absolutely ridiculous about objecting to being called a 'cis male'.

given that there aren't actually that many trans people, i can't see that a case-by-case approach would be a particular burden to the services. there's also another issue - did you know that one of the first rape crisis centres in the UK was set up by, and is still run by, a trans woman? what do you do with her?

i agree that a crystal clear definition of 'trans' would be helpful, but i think that's what a lot of people are working towards. a lot of the difficulty arises from a determination to exclude trans people from being the gender that they identify as at a basic linguistic level. solutions, not semantics, are the way forward.

[archie]

I've heard a number of female acquaintances and friends say they don't "identify as women" they just "are" and would not wish to classify themselves as anything other than biologically female. The common themes from them include their lived experiences being hugely impacted by the biology of menstruation, child birth, miscarriage, sexual assault and menopause. I don't believe any of these thoughtful and reflective individuals to be anything phobic.

Many of them would describe the use of cis to describe themselves as compelled speech. I'm pretty certain that's also one of Joanna Cherrys concerns, too.

You also touch on the idea that the term trans is far reaching and, if we're going to start using chemistry terms to describe aspects of the discussion, they're not a homogeneous group - except in one core aspect of their lives.

Can I ask, in good faith, when you say "bona fide" trans are you meaning those individuals with acknowledged gender dysphoria? I have been interpreting your use of this to imply that - apologies if I have been mistaken. This would exclude AGP individuals from your definition- and bad faith actors such as the recent individuals trying to game the system for whatever reason.

Can you maybe clarify? Thank youThis is a really interesting post. I'm not sure that I have used the term 'bona fide', but I get what you mean. I think we need to look at this in two ways: what are we trying to achive and how does society confer legitimacy on who should be considered trans.

Where I think we are at the moment is that the policy objective appears to be to allow people to self identify as a sex and, with that, freely access all of the places and services that people of that sex would access. This has been the focus of much of the debate on here and more widely.

When I refer to the vagueness of the definition, I mean that it extends from people who have had a full biological transition right through to some very fuzzy sense of living as your gender. I do not think that trans, as represented on that spectrum, is a single homogeneous group. So I guess it can be seen as where does society draw the line? I'm not sure it's even as simple as that. You raise the issue of AGP individuals. On a personal level I think it's none of my business if someone is AGP. But it becomes society's business when that impacts on the rights of others.

I suspect that almost no one would have an issue treating someone who has biologically transitioned as being of there preferred sex. I suspect most people would not consider Isla Bryson as 'bona fide' (to use your phrase) trans. But there must be a line somewhere - the issue is where do we draw it and how do we do that in a way that doesn't unfairly stigmatise people?

The starting point for me is what are we trying to achieve? I do believe that should be that trans people should be able to access services and activities in line with their preferred sex. But I don't accept that can apply to anyone on the very broad spectrum that trans is currently expressed as. I would also suggest that to address your point about 'bad faith' actors, there needs to be a process. As the Scottish legislation largely strips out that process, I think that is problematic.

So there needs to be widespread engagement across civic society as to where the acceptable boundaries are. I do fear, however, that it has become so toxic and entrenched that it will be really difficult. And the recent cases just entrench that more.

Thoughts welcome.

[AgentDaleCooper]

This is a really interesting post. I'm not sure that I have used the term 'bona fide', but I get what you mean. I think we need to look at this in two ways: what are we trying to achive and how does society confer legitimacy on who should be considered trans.

Where I think we are at the moment is that the policy objective appears to be to allow people to self identify as a sex and, with that, freely access all of the places and services that people of that sex would access. This has been the focus of much of the debate on here and more widely.

When I refer to the vagueness of the definition, I mean that it extends from people who have had a full biological transition right through to some very fuzzy sense of living as your gender. I do not think that trans, as represented on that spectrum, is a single homogeneous group. So I guess it can be seen as where does society draw the line? I'm not sure it's even as simple as that. You raise the issue of AGP individuals. On a personal level I think it's none of my business if someone is AGP. But it becomes society's business when that impacts on the rights of others.

I suspect that almost no one would have an issue treating someone who has biologically transitioned as being of there preferred sex. I suspect most people would not consider Isla Bryson as 'bona fide' (to use your phrase) trans. But there must be a line somewhere - the issue is where do we draw it and how do we do that in a way that doesn't unfairly stigmatise people?

The starting point for me is what are we trying to achieve? I do believe that should be that trans people should be able to access services and activities in line with their preferred sex. But I don't accept that can apply to anyone on the very broad spectrum that trans is currently expressed as. I would also suggest that to address your point about 'bad faith' actors, there needs to be a process. As the Scottish legislation largely strips out that process, I think that is problematic.

So there needs to be widespread engagement across civic society as to where the acceptable boundaries are. I do fear, however, that it has become so toxic and entrenched that it will be really difficult. And the recent cases just entrench that more.

Thoughts welcome.

this is an interesting post, and i can see that you are definitely coming at this issue in good faith, even if i disagree with you on some matters :aok:

[LewysGot2]

This is a really interesting post. I'm not sure that I have used the term 'bona fide', but I get what you mean. I think we need to look at this in two ways: what are we trying to achive and how does society confer legitimacy on who should be considered trans.

Where I think we are at the moment is that the policy objective appears to be to allow people to self identify as a sex and, with that, freely access all of the places and services that people of that sex would access. This has been the focus of much of the debate on here and more widely.

When I refer to the vagueness of the definition, I mean that it extends from people who have had a full biological transition right through to some very fuzzy sense of living as your gender. I do not think that trans, as represented on that spectrum, is a single homogeneous group. So I guess it can be seen as where does society draw the line? I'm not sure it's even as simple as that. You raise the issue of AGP individuals. On a personal level I think it's none of my business if someone is AGP. But it becomes society's business when that impacts on the rights of others.

I suspect that almost no one would have an issue treating someone who has biologically transitioned as being of there preferred sex. I suspect most people would not consider Isla Bryson as 'bona fide' (to use your phrase) trans. But there must be a line somewhere - the issue is where do we draw it and how do we do that in a way that doesn't unfairly stigmatise people?

The starting point for me is what are we trying to achieve? I do believe that should be that trans people should be able to access services and activities in line with their preferred sex. But I don't accept that can apply to anyone on the very broad spectrum that trans is currently expressed as. I would also suggest that to address your point about 'bad faith' actors, there needs to be a process. As the Scottish legislation largely strips out that process, I think that is problematic.

So there needs to be widespread engagement across civic society as to where the acceptable boundaries are. I do fear, however, that it has become so toxic and entrenched that it will be really difficult. And the recent cases just entrench that more.

Thoughts welcome.

Sorry Archie, it may have been He's Here that used that term. Thanks for your response though. Would be interested in He's Here's views too.

Re AGP v fully transitioned (as far is as medically possible) it's clear from public feedback the general population see these scenarios as quite different.

I think it absolutely is someone's own business re AGP but I can see why many females might not be comfortable sharing single sex spaces with AGP individuals.

[archie]

[QUOTE=AgentDaleCooper;7259259]r.e. the bit in bold - many people find the phrase 'black lives matter' offensive. that is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the intention of the language, wilful or otherwise. So what is the intention? And why the implication that it's akin to racism to contest it? Why can't people choose how they are described rather than having it imposed?

The term 'cis' is a Latin term used to denote 'always having been on the same side', as opposed to 'trans'. the terms have no function other than to include a vulnerable group of people into a discussion on their terms. many women - most that i know - have absolutely zero issue with this. i obviously can't speak for women, but i thought the man in that article that you posted was being absolutely ridiculous about objecting to being called a 'cis male'. That's fine, but again you are trying to determine how people define themselves. It's not a neutral term.

given that there aren't actually that many trans people, i can't see that a case-by-case approach would be a particular burden to the services. there's also another issue - did you know that one of the first rape crisis centres in the UK was set up by, and is still run by, a trans woman? what do you do with her?I don't know the detail of the rape crisis centre you refer to. Most initially came out of the womens movement in the 70s. So that is some stretch. The case by case issue is much wider than the assessment. there needs to be a comprehensive set of criteria and a legally robust process underpinning it to make it work. I think you are seriously underestimating the task here.

i agree that a crystal clear definition of 'trans' would be helpful, but i think that's what a lot of people are working towards. a lot of the difficulty arises from a determination to exclude trans people from being the gender that they identify as at a basic linguistic level. solutions, not semantics, are the way forward.I'm confused here. Semantics is about the meaning of language. Surely that is central to this? If you want solutions you must be clear on what you are wanting to solve.

[He's here!]

SG has put on hold the movement of all transgender prisoners and has announced a review of the rules, according to Sky.

[He's here!]

Sorry Archie, it may have been He's Here that used that term. Thanks for your response though. Would be interested in He's Here's views too.

Re AGP v fully transitioned (as far is as medically possible) it's clear from public feedback the general population see these scenarios as quite different.

I think it absolutely is someone's own business re AGP but I can see why many females might not be comfortable sharing single sex spaces with AGP individuals.

I'm in full agreement with a great deal of what you and archie have been discussing this afternoon, in particular your point about compelled speech.

My primary concern around the blocked SG legislation is the danger inherent in the removal of the current checks and balances with a policy that equates to 'everyone is who they say they are, unless they turn out not to be'.