The Trans Rights Debate

[147lothian]

Trump has signed an Executive Order banning males from taking part in female sports.

One of the striking things about this is the clarity of the language. How has it fallen to Donald Trump to be the defender of women and girls sports? This was a remarkable announcement about something that should be unremarkable. Did anyone see Trump surrounded by all these girls waiting to applaud him at the right time. Sports in schools is a massive deal in America. A lot of people must be trying to get their heads around how this was ever able to happen in the first place that biological men could compete in women's sports and certain governing bodies turned a blind eye to it. I'm not a fan of Trump's but credit where it's due this is an entirely sensible move, it's also one that will be followed by other countries when common sense returns, at some time in future we will probably look back in horror that this was ever able to happen, this happened because a radical and vocal politically motivated minority managed to persuade governing institutions to follow them into fantasy land.

[Bishop Hibee]

Totally agree with the poster above. It’s genuinely ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ stuff. As an aside, I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by a doctor who thinks biological sex is nebulous.

[CropleyWasGod]

Totally agree with the poster above. It’s genuinely ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ stuff. As an aside, I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by a doctor who thinks biological sex is nebulous.

Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

[lapsedhibee]

I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by a doctor who thinks biological sex is nebulous.

Do you think it might be catching? :confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

There's a difference from beliefs and saying something that's scientifically wrong in a field that is life and death. Many medicines and treatments are deadly in doses given to the wrong sex. There is also some illnesses that effect people with xy chromosomes.

I've no problem with someone spiritually believing that sex isn't defined but biologically it simply is.

[jamie_1875]

Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

So why did you say you would ask the nurse if she would have a problem changing next to a lesbian then? What was the relevance of that if you don't care and she was treating you?

[Moulin Yarns]

So why did you say you would ask the nurse if she would have a problem changing next to a lesbian then? What was the relevance of that if you don't care and she was treating you?

This from the nurse manager at the tribunal


When asked by Ms Cunningham if she had any reason to doubt whether Ms Peggie's feelings of intimidation and embarrassment were genuine, she said no.

But she added: "There are other nurses who go into the toilet cubicles to get changed because they don't like getting changed in front of other women."




Some people are just uncomfortable changing in front of others. I don't think anyone would ask a changing room full of people if anyone is gay or trans.

[jamie_1875]

This from the nurse manager at the tribunal


When asked by Ms Cunningham if she had any reason to doubt whether Ms Peggie's feelings of intimidation and embarrassment were genuine, she said no.

But she added: "There are other nurses who go into the toilet cubicles to get changed because they don't like getting changed in front of other women."




Some people are just uncomfortable changing in front of others. I don't think anyone would ask a changing room full of people if anyone is gay or trans.

Sorry struggling to see the point you are making here?

[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry struggling to see the point you are making here?

OK, put it another way, not every gay or trans person is obviously gay or trans. How would you know if the person next to you in a changing room identifies in a particular way?

If you saw Dr Upton passing in the street how would you identify her?

[jamie_1875]

OK, put it another way, not every gay or trans person is obviously gay or trans. How would you know if the person next to you in a changing room identifies in a particular way?

If you saw Dr Upton passing in the street how would you identify her?

That's not what this particular case is about though. It's about a woman who knew "Beth" was and is a man getting changed next to her and her not feeling comfortable with it, then being suspended when she raised a concern.

The nurse wasn't passing him in the street, she was a woman in the woman's changing room who didn't want to get changed next to a man.

[Moulin Yarns]

That's not what this particular case is about though. It's about a woman who knew "Beth" was and is a man getting changed next to her and her not feeling comfortable with it, then being suspended when she raised a concern.

The nurse wasn't passing him in the street, she was a woman in the woman's changing room who didn't want to get changed next to a man.

However, other nurses, who were not transphobic but didn't want to change in front of others, used toilet cubicles. Why didn't the nurse in question do the same if it bothered her so much?

[jamie_1875]

However, other nurses, who were not transphobic but didn't want to change in front of others, used toilet cubicles. Why didn't the nurse in question do the same if it bothered her so much?

So she is a transphobe now is she?

So a woman who is in a woman's changing rooms, a safe space for woman, should be forced to get changed in a toilet cubicle so she didn't upset the feelings of a man in the woman's changing room is what you are saying?

You a man telling a woman what to do and think and where to change is not really a great look is it....

[Pretty Boy]

However, other nurses, who were not transphobic but didn't want to change in front of others, used toilet cubicles. Why didn't the nurse in question do the same if it bothered her so much?

Maybe her particular objection was to changing in front of someone she viewed as a man rather than changing in front of people in general?

I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with her stance but the whole crux of the issue is around whether people born a different biological sex from their current gender identity should use single sex spaces so it's relevant in a way someone's sexuality isn't (in this instance).

[CropleyWasGod]

So why did you say you would ask the nurse if she would have a problem changing next to a lesbian then? What was the relevance of that if you don't care and she was treating you?

I think you need to read my post about that again.:greengrin

I suggested that the tribunal process might be served by asking her that question. They obviously think differently, since I don't think that has been raised. And, given the way the case has gone, it's maybe not relevant now.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think you need to read my post about that again.:greengrin

I suggested that the tribunal process might be served by asking her that question. They obviously think differently, since I don't think that has been raised. And, given the way the case has gone, it's maybe not relevant now.

When 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so it's got zero relevance. Us born males have to wear that badge unfortunately because it's men that assault. A lesbian is a biological female the doctor wasn't.

This is another case like sports where giving someone ie trans females more rights should be vetoed as it takes away another groups rights, females that don't won't to get changed in front of biological males. Calling females that don't want to get changed in front of biological males transphobes is misogynistic and unfair. Women should be allowed safe spaces

[CropleyWasGod]

When 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so it's got zero relevance. Us born males have to wear that badge unfortunately because it's men that assault. A lesbian is a biological female the doctor wasn't.

This is another case like sports where giving someone ie trans females more rights should be vetoed as it takes away another groups rights, females that don't won't to get changed in front of biological males. Calling females that don't want to get changed in front of biological males transphobes is misogynistic and unfair. Women should be allowed safe spaces

It would have relevance if the tribunal heard that she had an issue with gay women ie she was a "phobe". But no-one has brought that up, so (in this case) it hasn't any relevance. Which is what I meant in my post :wink:

[Stairway 2 7]

It would have relevance if the tribunal heard that she had an issue with gay women ie she was a "phobe". But no-one has brought that up, so (in this case) it hasn't any relevance. Which is what I implied in my post :wink:

She said at the time that she didn't want anyone with a ***** changing in the same room as her, lesbians don't have a ***** so that wasn't her objection. You may as well ask her if she's racist or anti disabled as both aren't what she objected too

[Moulin Yarns]

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

[Pretty Boy]

She said at the time that she didn't want anyone with a ***** changing in the same room as her, lesbians don't have a ***** so that wasn't her objection. You may as well ask her if she's racist or anti disabled as both aren't what she objected too

I suppose it could be argued it was relevant if a pattern of bigoted or discriminatory behaviour could be shown.

Broadly I agree with you though. The issue here is about a woman objecting to someone born biologically male who she believes is still a male changing openly in a women's changing area. Personally I have no issue changing in communal spaces with other men and their sexual orientation never crosses my mind (it probably takes a certain kind of arrogance to assume a gay man is going to find a mere glimpse of my naked body somehow irresistible:greengrin). I would feel uncomfortable changing in front of a woman though for various reasons, not least the worry I would be making them feel in any way intimidated or uncomfortable.

The whole case leaves me conflicted because I do feel there has to be a degree of provision in such settings for people in the process of transitioning and being repeatedly told 'you aren't a real woman' must be hurtful. Equally though men calling women 'transphobes' because they feel uncomfortable having someone with a ***** seeing them change or having to see said ***** when they don't wish to is creeping towards misogyny. It's one of those situations where simplistic slogans just don't cut it because it's too nuanced for that.

[CropleyWasGod]

She said at the time that she didn't want anyone with a ***** changing in the same room as her, lesbians don't have a ***** so that wasn't her objection. You may as well ask her if she's racist or anti disabled as both aren't what she objected too

:greengrin Did you not see the bit where I said "in this case it's not relevant"? I'm actually agreeing with you :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

:greengrin Did you not see the bit where I said "in this case it's not relevant"? I'm actually agreeing with you :greengrin

Sorry I didn't. Must be the shock of seeing someone I think is sensible agreeing with me, when I mostly post pish 😆

"I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." Groucho Marx

[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry I didn't. Must be the shock of seeing someone I think is sensible agreeing with me, when I mostly post pish ��

"I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." Groucho Marx

:faf:

ftr, I don't think you "mostly post pish". Only those times when you agree/disagree with me (delete as applicable).

[Moulin Yarns]

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

[Pretty Boy]

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

Because she has male, or that should probably now be traditionally male, reproductive organs and they changed beside each other in an opening changing room?

[Stairway 2 7]

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

In court she said because Dr upton had told staff. She also said she was 6 foot 1, had receding hair, an Adams apple and changed in front of her and that is when she complained.

My solution from earlier in the thread of having a gender neutral toilet in the building apparently was rejected by Dr Upton. She said that would be othering and she wanted to get changed in the female changing room

[jamie_1875]

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

Why do you think the highly paid KC lawyers haven't asked that question? Because it's nothing to do with the case being heard.

It's in the reporting that he only began transitioning a few years ago, is married to a woman and was quite openly a man a few years ago is the most likely answer though as to how she knew him to be a man. I am also guessing the deeper voice and male body parts etc were a big giveaway.

Why do you think female changing rooms exist? For what purpose?

[Bishop Hibee]

Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

Neither do I. I worry about being treated by a Doctor pretending to be a woman who thinks sex is ‘guessed at’ at birth rather than observed though.

[lapsedhibee]

That's not what this particular case is about though. It's about a woman who knew "Beth" was and is a man getting changed next to her and her not feeling comfortable with it, then being suspended when she raised a concern.

The nurse wasn't passing him in the street, she was a woman in the woman's changing room who didn't want to get changed next to a man.

Wasn't it Upton who raised the concern (that she was being bullied by Peggie)? :dunno:

[jamie_1875]

Wasn't it Upton who raised the concern (that she was being bullied by Peggie)? :dunno:

She raised her concerns with her line manager who said it was NHS Fife Policy that if someone identified as a woman they had the right to use woman's spaces. The Dr then raised the offical claim and the nurse then took this to the employment tribunal for unlawful harassment under the equalities act. So yes it was made an official grievance as he felt bullied by the nurse as she didn't like him changing in the woman's changing room.

[lapsedhibee]

She raised her concerns with her line manager who said it was NHS Fife Policy that if someone identified as a woman they had the right to use woman's spaces. The Dr then raised the offical claim and the nurse then took this to the employment tribunal for unlawful harassment under the equalities act. So yes it was made an official grievance as he felt bullied by the nurse as she didn't like him changing in the woman's changing room.

:aok:

[147lothian]

So a 6'1 man feels so entitled that he reject's a gender neutral changing area, obviously with no consideration of how he is going to make others feel and tells a 5'4 women who is in a female only safe space that she is a bigot and transphobe because she objects to a man getting changed in a female only area. This is misogyny in drag.

[CropleyWasGod]

So a 6'1 man feels so entitled that he reject's a gender neutral changing area, obviously with no consideration of how he is going to make others feel and tells a 5'4 women who is in a female only safe space that she is a bigot and transphobe because she objects to a man getting changed in a female only area. This is misogyny in drag.

What Velvet Underground album is that on? :greengrin

[Bishop Hibee]

From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

[Andy Bee]

From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

Utter BS, what does he know now that he didn't before or could of found out before, he voted for it along with his partner in crime Baillie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swNYRF8rnko

[CropleyWasGod]

From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

Should he be commenting on an ongoing case?

Seems a bit disrespectful of the process, if not against some ethical rules, and lays him open to accusations of trying to influence the case.

[jamie_1875]

Utter BS, what does he know now that he didn't before or could of found out before, he voted for it along with his partner in crime Baillie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swNYRF8rnko

Yes and no, I think at the time the Scottish Government did say that it would have no impact on the equalities act so you either believed them at the time or didn't. NHS Fife has been empowered though to basically ignore that and come up with their own policy, their policy is anyone that says they are a woman is a woman and that's it. Kinda of like what GRA was going to do before it was stopped. But I agree there were many many people who said hang on this is a big issue and they were largely ignored or dismissed as bigots and Sarwar and Baillie should have listened more and insisted on stronger amendments. And Labour MSPs where whipped to support it, another mistake at the time.

Although in this case NHS Fife just did what they wanted anyway and ignored the actual law.

[jamie_1875]

Should he be commenting on an ongoing case?

Seems a bit disrespectful of the process, if not against some ethical rules, and lays him open to accusations of trying to influence the case.

This was brought up in Parliament today, it's not "sub judice" which means you can talk about it as it's not like a criminal case where you could commit contempt etc.

It was brought up as a few attempts were made to debate it and ask questions on what the Scottish Governments stance was but the PO never picked any questions and the SNP/Greens voted down the request to get a statement on it.

[CropleyWasGod]

This was brought up in Parliament today, it's not "sub judice" which means you can talk about it as it's not like a criminal case where you could commit contempt etc.

It was brought up as a few attempts were made to debate it and ask questions on what the Scottish Governments stance was but the PO never picked any questions and the SNP/Greens voted down the request to get a statement on it.

2 of our elected reps:-

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser pointed out that the NHS Fife tribunal was not a criminal case, where a jury could be swayed by comments in parliament. He said a ministerial statement would pose no "risk of prejudice".

Hepburn called Fraser's point "nonsense", saying that sub judice rules also applied to civil cases. "It's a live case," he told MSPs. "And we need to be careful what we say."

I didn't think it was even a civil case, but in my amateur mind (given the high profile nature of it) any public comment should be avoided.

Game-playing by all parties IMO.

[jamie_1875]

2 of our elected reps:-

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser pointed out that the NHS Fife tribunal was not a criminal case, where a jury could be swayed by comments in parliament. He said a ministerial statement would pose no "risk of prejudice".

Hepburn called Fraser's point "nonsense", saying that sub judice rules also applied to civil cases. "It's a live case," he told MSPs. "And we need to be careful what we say."

I didn't think it was even a civil case, but in my amateur mind (given the high profile nature of it) any public comment should be avoided.

Game-playing by all parties IMO.

It's not a civil case, I think that's just nonsense from Hepburn. I don't see a issue with commenting by public figures seeing as it's such an important and fundamental issue, I would be concerned if our elected officials weren't commenting on it seeing the ramifications it may have.

[Sergio sledge]

2 of our elected reps:-

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser pointed out that the NHS Fife tribunal was not a criminal case, where a jury could be swayed by comments in parliament. He said a ministerial statement would pose no "risk of prejudice".

Hepburn called Fraser's point "nonsense", saying that sub judice rules also applied to civil cases. "It's a live case," he told MSPs. "And we need to be careful what we say."

I didn't think it was even a civil case, but in my amateur mind (given the high profile nature of it) any public comment should be avoided.

Game-playing by all parties IMO.

I do agree there is a bit of game playing going on here, but to be fair I would also hope that a case that will be decided by a judge would not be influenced by statements by politicians in this country. The judge should be deciding it on the merits of the case alone and if they are swayed or influenced by public comment or sentiment then they shouldn't be in that position IMHO.

Also, I don't think that a ministerial statement on whether the NHS policy of allowing people to change in the room that aligns with the gender they identify with is legal or not has any bearing on the case to be honest. Isn't the case about whether the nurse has faced unlawful harassment and victimisation (being suspended, subject to disciplinary action and having her work patterns adjusted) because of her belief that biological sex is immutable, not about whether the policy itself is lawful?

[jamie_1875]

"The Equality and Human Rights Commission has today written to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and NHS Fife, regarding access to single-sex changing facilities for NHS staff.

Baroness Kishwer Falkner, Chairwoman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said:

“As Britain’s equality regulator, we promote and enforce compliance with the Equality Act 2010.

“Health bodies in Scotland, England and Wales must have an accurate understanding of the operation of the Equality Act as it relates to the provision of single-sex services and spaces.

“Today we reminded NHS Fife of their obligation to protect individuals from discrimination and harassment on the basis of protected characteristics, including sex, religion or belief and gender reassignment.

“Under the Public Sector Equality Duty, all Scottish health boards must assess how their policies and practices affect people with protected characteristics. We have requested that NHS Fife provide us with a copy of any equality impact assessment relating to the provision of changing facilities for staff; any information relevant to how such policies have been kept under review; and any details on steps taken to ensure that the rights of different groups are balanced in the application of these policies.

“We also highlighted that the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 state that changing facilities will not be suitable “unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety”. The Health and Safety Executive have an Approved Code of Practice and guidance that NHS Boards can refer to.

“This week media reported on NHS Scotland’s forthcoming Guide to Transitioning, which the Scottish Government confirmed has been shared with health boards in preparation for its implementation. It is important that this guide, and all guidance, policies and practices which rely on it, faithfully reflect and comply with the Equality Act 2010.

“We have asked to meet with the Cabinet Secretary to discuss the Scottish Government’s role in ensuring that NHS Scotland and other bodies meet their legal obligations under the Equality Act.”

Yes some people still think a nurse of 30 years is a transphobe for wanting the law to be upheld.

[Ozyhibby]

From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

The amount of straight up lies that come from Sarwar’s lips would make him right at home in the MAGA movement in the states.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

"The Equality and Human Rights Commission has today written to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and NHS Fife, regarding access to single-sex changing facilities for NHS staff.

Baroness Kishwer Falkner, Chairwoman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said:

“As Britain’s equality regulator, we promote and enforce compliance with the Equality Act 2010.

“Health bodies in Scotland, England and Wales must have an accurate understanding of the operation of the Equality Act as it relates to the provision of single-sex services and spaces.

“Today we reminded NHS Fife of their obligation to protect individuals from discrimination and harassment on the basis of protected characteristics, including sex, religion or belief and gender reassignment.

“Under the Public Sector Equality Duty, all Scottish health boards must assess how their policies and practices affect people with protected characteristics. We have requested that NHS Fife provide us with a copy of any equality impact assessment relating to the provision of changing facilities for staff; any information relevant to how such policies have been kept under review; and any details on steps taken to ensure that the rights of different groups are balanced in the application of these policies.

“We also highlighted that the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 state that changing facilities will not be suitable “unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety”. The Health and Safety Executive have an Approved Code of Practice and guidance that NHS Boards can refer to.

“This week media reported on NHS Scotland’s forthcoming Guide to Transitioning, which the Scottish Government confirmed has been shared with health boards in preparation for its implementation. It is important that this guide, and all guidance, policies and practices which rely on it, faithfully reflect and comply with the Equality Act 2010.

“We have asked to meet with the Cabinet Secretary to discuss the Scottish Government’s role in ensuring that NHS Scotland and other bodies meet their legal obligations under the Equality Act.”

Yes some people still think a nurse of 30 years is a transphobe for wanting the law to be upheld.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010/gender-reassignment-discrimination

[jamie_1875]

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010/gender-reassignment-discrimination

I am struggling again to understand the point you are making in relation to this ongoing case. That article doesn't say Dr Upton can use the woman's changing room.

Would you call an 18 yr old female student nurse who didn't want to get changed next to a fully intact man a transphobe? I am guessing yes, but am I wrong?

[Moulin Yarns]

I am struggling again to understand the point you are making in relation to this ongoing case. That article doesn't say Dr Upton can use the woman's changing room.

Would you call an 18 yr old female student nurse who didn't want to get changed next to a fully intact man a transphobe? I am guessing yes, but am I wrong?

That isn't an article but is the guidance on equality from the commission!!

[jamie_1875]

That isn't an article but is the guidance on equality from the commission!!

So what has it got to do with the current case? Nowhere it says Dr Upton should be allowed into the woman's changing room does it?

But I see you ignored the question, you previously called the nurse a transphobe for not wanting to get changed next to Dr Upton, would you call an 18 yr old student nurse a transphobe if she similarly refused to get changed next to a fully intact male?

[Moulin Yarns]

So what has it got to do with the current case? Nowhere it says Dr Upton should be allowed into the woman's changing room does it?

But I see you ignored the question, you previously called the nurse a transphobe for not wanting to get changed next to Dr Upton, would you call an 18 yr old student nurse a transphobe if she similarly refused to get changed next to a fully intact male?

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/response-misinformation-about-single-sex-spaces-guidance?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fse arch%3Fkeys%3DSingle-sex%2Btransgender%2B


We are aware of online misinformation*about guidance on single-sex spaces. It is false to suggest that we are looking to bar trans people from accessing spaces, such as public toilets, without a Gender Recognition Certificate.


It is completely false to suggest that we are looking to bar*trans people from accessing spaces without a Gender Recognition Certificate. We are not aware of any document*produced by the EHRC*that would support this.

The Equality Act provisions on gender reassignment are not predicated on possession, or not, of a Gender Recognition Certificate.

[jamie_1875]

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/response-misinformation-about-single-sex-spaces-guidance?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fse arch%3Fkeys%3DSingle-sex%2Btransgender%2B


We are aware of online misinformation*about guidance on single-sex spaces. It is false to suggest that we are looking to bar trans people from accessing spaces, such as public toilets, without a Gender Recognition Certificate.


It is completely false to suggest that we are looking to bar*trans people from accessing spaces without a Gender Recognition Certificate. We are not aware of any document*produced by the EHRC*that would support this.

The Equality Act provisions on gender reassignment are not predicated on possession, or not, of a Gender Recognition Certificate.

I am really struggling what point you are making? Will try and be more direct.

Are you suggesting this guidance says Dr Upton could enter the woman's changing rooms, if so please point where it suggests this. (I am sure you saw the other guidance which of course makes it clear he can't)

And again you ignore the question about the 18 yr old student nurse. If you believe an older nurse is a transphobe by your logic the 18 year old is also a transphobe, yes or no?

Apologies for being so direct but I am not sure what your points actually are.

[superfurryhibby]

The University of Sussex has been fined £585,000 by the higher education regulator, the Office for Students (OfS), for failing to uphold freedom of speech.

The OfS investigation started with the case of Prof Kathleen Stock, who left the university in 2021 after being accused of transphobia for her views on sex and gender issues.

The OfS said the university's policy statement on trans and non-binary equality, including a requirement to "positively represent trans people", could lead to staff and students preventing themselves from voicing opposing views.

In an outbreak of sanity, it would seem the tide is turning in this debate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9vr4vjzgqo

[Bishop Hibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

Well well well imagine that! Hopefully the ‘woman can be born with a penis’ nonsense can be put to bed once and for all.

[Keith_M]

Common sense has finally prevailed.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

[147lothian]

This is a victory for common sense. The High Court ruling is saying that a woman is not a costume, it is not a feeling, it's a biological fact.

[lapsedhibee]

This is a victory for common sense. The High Court ruling is saying that a woman is not a costume, it is not a feeling, it's a biological fact.

When did the High Court say this? :dunno:

[Keith_M]

When did the High Court say this? :dunno:


They didn't mention costumes or stuff, just the biological bit

😉


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

[lapsedhibee]

They didn't mention costumes or stuff, just the biological bit

😉


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

Oh, I didn't realise that the High Court and the Supreme Court are the same thing.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lots of talk of common sense here and elsewhere. The only logical solution to the problem of women only spaces has to be gender neutral spaces such as toilets. These already exist and needs to become the norm.

My social media is full of support for the trans community today after yesterday's ruling.

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

[CropleyWasGod]

Oh, I didn't realise that the High Court and the Supreme Court are the same thing.

When Diana left the Supremes, she got high.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lots of talk of common sense here and elsewhere. The only logical solution to the problem of women only spaces has to be gender neutral spaces such as toilets. These already exist and needs to become the norm.

My social media is full of support for the trans community today after yesterday's ruling.

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

Responding to my own post!

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/government-bans-gender-neutral-toilets-in-all-new-public-buildings#:~:text='Gender%20neutral%20toilets%20al low%20some,to%20use%20facilities%20with%20dignity'&text=We%20are%20alarmed%20by%20this,Homophobic%20a nd%20Transphobic%20hate%20crime.

Banned by the UK government!!

[147lothian]

This ruling means that biological sex is recognized in law as being real, if you watch next years UK woman's pool final, you won't see two men in the final competing against each other like what happened in this years woman's pool final, even if they have £5 Gender Recognition Certificates.

[Bristolhibby]

This ruling means that biological sex is recognized in law as being real, if you watch next years UK woman's pool final, you won't see two men in the final competing against each other like what happened in this years woman's pool final, even if they have £5 Gender Recognition Certificates.

Why does pool even need a men’s and a woman’s tournament? Same for darts, chess, bowls, etc. Literally no advantage being a man.

J

[Pretty Boy]

Why does pool even need a men’s and a woman’s tournament? Same for darts, chess, bowls, etc. Literally no advantage being a man.

J

You don't think men can generate significantly more power on the cue ball in a sport like pool when compared to women?

[500miles]

You don't think men can generate significantly more power on the cue ball in a sport like pool when compared to women?

Probably not in a useful way.

Separate women's leagues is probably useful in order to encourage participation by promoting a smaller pool of players who would otherwise get lost in the much larger pool of male players.

[Ozyhibby]

You don't think men can generate significantly more power on the cue ball in a sport like pool when compared to women?

Isn’t height an advantage in snooker and pool?


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[Pretty Boy]

Isn’t height an advantage in snooker and pool?


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I genuinely don't know.

I read an article with Deta Hedman and Lisa Ashton last week and they were very sympathetic to trans women but still stated their opposition to them playing in women's darts tournament. They argued that darts is still a physical sport in which musculoskeletal differences, perhaps those which are negligible in every day life, have a bearing. Maybe it's me that is coming at it from the wrong angle and maybe they are just trying to protect their own positions but I would argue they should be listened to over anyone with no direct involvement in the sport at a professional level stating it makes no difference.

Across a range of sports the data shows that up to the onset of puberty there is very little difference in performance levels between males and females, in sports like running it's absolutely minimal to non existent. At around that 11-14 age the disparity in performance grows massively. Women have to deal with a whole range of issues men don't; huge hormonal imbalances throughout the month, time spent unable to train at maximum performance because of their period etc etc all whilst men get elevated levels of testosterone which among other things fuels muscle and skeletal growth. Even in sports where that required physicality is smaller, say darts as opposed to boxing, it's still not really for me, you or any other men to decide whether it makes any difference or not.

That shouldn't be read as any kind of transphobic comment. There really isn't a simple answer but simply disregarding women's views on the perceived biological reality of the situation seems close to the worst way to deal with it.

[lapsedhibee]

Responding to my own post!

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/government-bans-gender-neutral-toilets-in-all-new-public-buildings#:~:text='Gender%20neutral%20toilets%20al low%20some,to%20use%20facilities%20with%20dignity'&text=We%20are%20alarmed%20by%20this,Homophobic%20a nd%20Transphobic%20hate%20crime.

Banned by the UK government!!

Eh, naw: separate unisex (or universal) toilets should be provided if there is space, but should not come at the expense of female toilets

What they've actually banned is doing away with female toilets.

Thought for a moment there that architects had gone all Common Sensey.

[lapsedhibee]

When Diana left the Supremes, she got high.

Stress of only sharing top billing with the Prime Minister's wife. :agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

Eh, naw: separate unisex (or universal) toilets should be provided if there is space, but should not come at the expense of female toilets

What they've actually banned is doing away with female toilets.

Thought for a moment there that architects had gone all Common Sensey.

Throwing this question out on toilets.

If a "Trans-man" (born female, but reassigned through surgery) walked into a women's toilet..... perhaps to make a political point, to test the law, or just to be **** y....... would he be breaking any law?

I'm thinking maybe breach of the peace, if women in there are alarmed by his being there. If he isn't getting his cock out in view of the women there, though, he can't be done for indecent exposure.

However, as the law stands, isn't he using the correct facilities?

Or is that one of the anomalies that will get ironed out by case-law so that common sense prevails?

[speedy_gonzales]

Throwing this question out on toilets.

If a "Trans-man" (born female, but reassigned through surgery) walked into a women's toilet..... perhaps to make a political point, to test the law, or just to be *****....... would he be breaking any law?

I'm thinking maybe breach of the peace, if women in there are alarmed by his being there. If he isn't getting his cock out in view of the women there, though, he can't be done for indecent exposure.

However, as the law stands, isn't he using the correct facilities?

Or is that one of the anomalies that will get ironed out by case-law so that common sense prevails?

It's a point I've raised elsewhere as the only two trans people I know and am social with are both trans men.

I could be way off the mark here, but this whole conversation seems to be driven by women against trans-women in single sex spaces or where gender critical care is delivered.
I've not seen or heard any argument from cis men re trans-men in their single sex spaces.

Edited to add (as I have said in the past) the issue doesn't directly affect me (being male) but both my wife and 21yr old daughter agree that this conversation seems to have got weaponised fairly early on and it's far from being over.
What's the percentage of trans folk out there compared to the wider population. What's the percentage of trans folk that have had the reconstructive surgery that would make it nigh on impossible to tell one way or the other without a DNA test?
As someone said earlier, the biggest risk to women just now is still men, and statistically men they know rather than don't know.

[Moulin Yarns]

Throwing this question out on toilets.

If a "Trans-man" (born female, but reassigned through surgery) walked into a women's toilet..... perhaps to make a political point, to test the law, or just to be **** y....... would he be breaking any law?

I'm thinking maybe breach of the peace, if women in there are alarmed by his being there. If he isn't getting his cock out in view of the women there, though, he can't be done for indecent exposure.

However, as the law stands, isn't he using the correct facilities?

Or is that one of the anomalies that will get ironed out by case-law so that common sense prevails?


A good point, assuming the trans man has gone under full gender reassignment surgery. The trans man I know has only undergone top surgery and hormone treatment.

Similarly a trans woman walking into the gents toilet while men are at urinals. What would be the reaction?

[Ozyhibby]

If this wasn’t about hate on trans people then I’m sure all those against will now be campaigning to make sure adequate facilities are made available for all people?[emoji849]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Eh, naw: separate unisex (or universal) toilets should be provided if there is space, but should not come at the expense of female toilets

What they've actually banned is doing away with female toilets.

Thought for a moment there that architects had gone all Common Sensey.

QUOTE

But organisations including feminist architecture and design collective Edit and grassroots group Architecture LGBT+ have hit back at the plans, describing them as a 'backwards step'. Edit called the move 'a distraction tactic by our government to fuel the culture war and transphobia'.

And Architecture LGBT+ said: 'Gender neutral spaces allow transgender and non-binary people, some of the most marginalised in society, the freedom to use facilities with dignity, without having to gender themselves

The changes will require the provision of separate single-sex toilet facilities for men and women and/or self-contained, private toilets. Mixed-sex shared facilities will be banned except when lack of space allows only a single toilet.

[Jim Herriot]

If this wasn’t about hate on trans people then I’m sure all those against will now be campaigning to make sure adequate facilities are made available for all people?[emoji849]


:not worth Well said. Every individual should have the right to suitable toilet facilities, regardless of sex, gender, or identity.

Also, separate pool tournaments for the left-handed. Sinister b^stards. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

:not worth Well said. Every individual should have the right to suitable toilet facilities, regardless of sex, gender, or identity.

Also, separate pool tournaments for the left-handed. Sinister b^stards. :greengrin

It’s a disaster for small business now having to provide more toilets. I expect the ladies and gents will get smaller and a third gender neutral one will have to be built.


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[wookie70]

It’s a disaster for small business now having to provide more toilets. I expect the ladies and gents will get smaller and a third gender neutral one will have to be built.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Just have two toilets without any urinals.

[The Tubs]

Just have two toilets without any urinals.

This would only make sense if we started using composting toilets everywhere. Think of all the extra water needed for a Jimmy Riddle.
We'd have longer queues too.

[speedy_gonzales]

It’s a disaster for small business now having to provide more toilets. I expect the ladies and gents will get smaller and a third gender neutral one will have to be built.


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It's maybe a British thing, but in Europe, many small hospitality businesses just have "a toilet". There's usually one lockable door then beyond that there's a sink, a urinal, a toilet and if you're lucky a baby changing area.
It appears to work.
For some reason we seem to get excited about how we toilet.
A good example was when when Bar 38 opened on George St in the early 2000's, the biggest talking point was the communal toilets and there was many an angry letter written about it in the Evening News. Turns out the only thing communal about them was the wash hand basin! Guys and gals still had their separate cubicles

[The Tubs]

It's maybe a British thing, but in Europe, many small hospitality businesses just have "a toilet". There's usually one lockable door then beyond that there's a sink, a urinal, a toilet and if you're lucky a baby changing area.
It appears to work.
For some reason we seem to get excited about how we toilet.
A good example was when when Bar 38 opened on George St in the early 2000's, the biggest talking point was the communal toilets and there was many an angry letter written about it in the Evening News. Turns out the only thing communal about them was the wash hand basin! Guys and gals still had their separate cubicles

Despite having spent the vast majority of my adult life outside Anglo-Saxon/British origin culture, its approach to lavvies is far superior to most descended from continental Europe, especially when the temperature starts rising.

[lapsedhibee]

QUOTE

But organisations including feminist architecture and design collective Edit and grassroots group Architecture LGBT+ have hit back at the plans, describing them as a 'backwards step'. Edit called the move 'a distraction tactic by our government to fuel the culture war and transphobia'.

And Architecture LGBT+ said: 'Gender neutral spaces allow transgender and non-binary people, some of the most marginalised in society, the freedom to use facilities with dignity, without having to gender themselves

The changes will require the provision of separate single-sex toilet facilities for men and women and/or self-contained, private toilets. Mixed-sex shared facilities will be banned except when lack of space allows only a single toilet.

Ah right, it's the common washhand basin area the last government was going after, rather than the unisex toilet itself, yes? Does seem a bit culture-warry, not like them at all.

[Stairway 2 7]

The reason trans men going into male toilets isn't an issue is biology. 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males. As males we have bear the burden for that, guilty or not and be kept away from single sex biological spaces. There is no threat increase to males with trans males being in their spaces.

I think most people would want as many rights as possible for trans females but not when it takes away a women's right, ie safe spaces. Protection against discrimination won't change.

[Kato]

Lots of talk of common sense here and elsewhere. The only logical solution to the problem of women only spaces has to be gender neutral spaces such as toilets. These already exist and needs to become the norm.

My social media is full of support for the trans community today after yesterday's ruling.

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.




There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

That's not up for discussion in the mainstream media though. Editors and those with powerful voices on social media do not care to make as much noise about this, as they do about trans people.

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[Ozyhibby]

The reason trans men going into male toilets isn't an issue is biology. 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males. As males we have bear the burden for that, guilty or not and be kept away from single sex biological spaces. There is no threat increase to males with trans males being in their spaces.

I think most people would want as many rights as possible for trans females but not when it takes away a women's right, ie safe spaces. Protection against discrimination won't change.

So we’ll need to build more toilets and changing rooms.[emoji106]


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[Stairway 2 7]

So we’ll need to build more toilets and changing rooms.[emoji106]


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Not by law now, so I doubt most will, perhaps big companies like banks and NHS but boozers who are toiling won't

[Ozyhibby]

Not by law now, so I doubt most will, perhaps big companies like banks and NHS but boozers who are toiling won't

Doesn’t the equalities act demand it?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Doesn’t the equalities act demand it?


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No. The supreme court has stipulated companies should determine spaces by biology. It also says it should have always been the case so I can see a number of court cases for unfair dismissal.

The supreme court takes priority over ECHR so it's likely parliament will make an amendment from what I'm reading

[lapsedhibee]

What's the percentage of trans folk out there compared to the wider population.

Government Equalities Office says this:

How many trans people are there?
We don’t know. No robust data on the UK trans
population exists. We tentatively estimate that there are
approximately 200,000-500,000 trans people in the UK.
The Office for National Statistics is researching whether
and how to develop a population estimate.

So less than 1%, but maybe not that much less.

[Stairway 2 7]

Doesn’t the equalities act demand it?


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The whole case was pretty much also to determine what the equalities act means by sex. Scot gov said it was chosen gender the court said this was to exhibit “incoherence and absurdity”. The court said the equalities act should only refer to biological sex and it should be protected in places where females change, have sanitary provisions and living in the same premises or there is physical contact.

It's hilarious that Sarwar is saying he always said there should be female only spaces, the same Sarwar that whipped the GRA vote and demoted two front benchers that were against. Hopefully it costs him his jotters

[147lothian]

Why does pool even need a men’s and a woman’s tournament? Same for darts, chess, bowls, etc. Literally no advantage being a man.

J

This is what the end game of trans ideology looks; an all male final of a woman's pool championship. The woman's pool event wouldn't ordinarily have grabbed the headlines, for one curious detail: this year, there were no women in the final. It was played between two men.

Men do still have some biological advantages. These differences - though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists - are obvious to anyone with eyes, men have longer reach, are usually taller making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed.

[Keith_M]

Was there a reason that Cherry kept mentioning that this as a victory for "women and lesbians"? She used the phrase at least five times in her Daily Record interview.


Was there something in the Supreme Court decision that mentioned Gay/Lesbian rights?

:dunno:

[Stairway 2 7]

Was there a reason that Cherry kept mentioning that this as a victory for "women and lesbians"? She used the phrase at least five times in her Daily Record interview.


Was there something in the Supreme Court decision that mentioned Gay/Lesbian rights?

:dunno:

It effects them as before many lesbian clubs and support groups for example were forced to include trans females they now don't. Some trans activists went as far as saying lesbians who wouldn't be a partner of a trans female were bigoted

[147lothian]

Was there a reason that Cherry kept mentioning that this as a victory for "women and lesbians"? She used the phrase at least five times in her Daily Record interview.


Was there something in the Supreme Court decision that mentioned Gay/Lesbian rights?

:dunno:

Maybe its because men who identify as women keep trying to join the lesbian dating pool, and they keep calling women who are attracted to women ie lesbians transphobes and cultural racists for not wanting anything to do with these deluded men.

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe its because men who identify as women keep trying to join the lesbian dating pool, and they keep calling women who are attracted to women ie lesbians transphobes and cultural racists for not wanting anything to do with these deluded men.

Do you have any evidence to back up your outrageous claim?

[Keith_M]

It effects them as before many lesbian clubs and support groups for example were forced to include trans females they now don't. Some trans activists went as far as saying lesbians who wouldn't be a partner of a trans female were bigoted


Thanks

:aok:

[Moulin Yarns]

How many women would have been threatened by this transgender girl using the same single sex spaces as them??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67727324.amp

[Stairway 2 7]

Do you have any evidence to back up your outrageous claim?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385.amp

The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women

[Stairway 2 7]

How many women would have been threatened by this transgender girl using the same single sex spaces as them??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67727324.amp

Using a murdered bairn to prove a point badly. The fact is though it isn't one particular trans woman it's the fact that it was a rule for anyone who is trans. As I said as long as 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males then women should have safe spaces. The fact that the vast vast majority of males and trans females aren't perverts doesn't take away our collective responsibility to give biological females their own space.

[Ozyhibby]

Using a murdered bairn to prove a point badly. The fact is though it isn't one particular trans woman it's the fact that it was a rule for anyone who is trans. As I said as long as 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males then women should have safe spaces. The fact that the vast vast majority of males and trans females aren't perverts doesn't take away our collective responsibility to give biological females their own space.

So all trans people have to use the gents?


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[Moulin Yarns]

So all trans people have to use the gents?


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Aye, and the male minority will just have to lump it the name of women's rights.








Note: that is very much tongue in cheek.

[cabbageandribs1875]

oh anas, what are yi like



https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/491376358_4002448919999038_7988607696591413695_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=XwHrndHo2o4Q7kNvwH4KMvf&_nc_oc=AdmbS28fEM4SVvZpOEcZORLqWfVApgbA1n1WtpB5mqz rG_WDXkaL7h-88O5p2uLiRJk&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_gid=FKy52MdUFbWzhAAUYWRX0A&oh=00_AfEl7toXIL4eqIHteSoZzfMVs-rdLACrb-UgJCHYbetBQQ&oe=68073C00

[Pretty Boy]

So all trans people have to use the gents?


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In reality, rather than as a point of law, when it comes to toileting would anyone know? They might suspect but it would be a pretty terrible person that demanded someone lowered their trousers to prove it.

Areas such as open changing rooms or certain occupations (I'm thinking the Rape Crisis Scotland debacle) might be more problematic but when it comes to women's toilets in which individual cubicles are the norm I can't imagine it being as big an issue in real life as it apparently is on social media.

[147lothian]

Do you have any evidence to back up your outrageous claim?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13484121/Lesbian-dating-app-use-facial-recognision-exclude-trans-women-matching-biological-female.html

Women attracted to women face abuse for their preference.

[Stairway 2 7]

So all trans people have to use the gents?


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I doubt there is a law against it in particular just like I wouldn't get a criminal record if I went in a females used the toilet cubicle and left, but they should use the toilet of their biological sex. It's obviously a bigger issue than toilets. Some jobs that had female quotas for promotion let trans women be included, female only clubs and support can be on biology now, female only personal care, female sport, female hostels and centre's for abuse, female work changing rooms.

[Moulin Yarns]

Using a murdered bairn to prove a point badly. The fact is though it isn't one particular trans woman it's the fact that it was a rule for anyone who is trans. As I said as long as 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males then women should have safe spaces. The fact that the vast vast majority of males and trans females aren't perverts doesn't take away our collective responsibility to give biological females their own space.

Jo caulfield, lives in Leith said exactly the same thing on threads!!!!

Arianna gheay was no threat to anyone but was murdered because she was different! She was a trans girl.


Edit: predictive text!

BRIANNA!

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13484121/Lesbian-dating-app-use-facial-recognision-exclude-trans-women-matching-biological-female.html

Women attracted to women face abuse for their preference.

Oh dear!! The daily mail is your go to for facts! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Stairway 2 7]

Jo caulfield, lives in Leith said exactly the same thing on threads!!!!

Arianna gheay was no threat to anyone but was murdered because she was different! She was a trans girl.


Edit: predictive text!

BRIANNA!

Oh well if Jo Caulfield said. Her death was abhorrent and she was no threat to anyone, she isn't everyone though, there is zero correlation, its cheap. Me and you aren't a threat to women, that doesn't mean there aren't rapists in the world, we are grouped with them due to our biology. Women should have spaces safe from biological males not due to one individual but due to men as a sex. Gisele Pelicot shows that abhorrent men hide in plain sight in every walk of life, unfortunately every male is guilty until proven innocent when it comes to women

[Stairway 2 7]

Oh dear!! The daily mail is your go to for facts! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Did you read the BBC article it had multiple lesbians and trans women saying it was an issue. Do I trust lesbians themselves or men who doubt it's true

[147lothian]

Oh dear!! The daily mail is your go to for facts! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Virtually the exact same point is made here, that there are men who identify as women who think they can call women transphobes and bigots because they are not attracted to people who identify as women they are attracted to real women, ie they are lesbians. The trans movement has some real and nasty misogynists.

https://thelcommunity.com/best-lesbian-dating-app-2025/

[Ozyhibby]

Virtually the exact same point is made here, that there are men who identify as women who think they can call women transphobes and bigots because they are not attracted to people who identify as women they are attracted to real women, ie they are lesbians. The trans movement has some real and nasty misogynists.

https://thelcommunity.com/best-lesbian-dating-app-2025/

There has been some real spiteful glee on the other side the last couple of days as well.


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[jamie_1875]

Do you have any evidence to back up your outrageous claim?

More evidence to add to the list. Why did you think it was so outrageous in the first place?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/c814cd90fa5a3a05

[oconnors_strip]

Just read that some lawyers are saying trans women will end up having to use disabled toilets if there aren’t designated toilets that they can use, eg mixed sex toilets.

Disabled people have enough problems trying to find toilets and ones that are free at the best of times.

[overdrive]

Just read that some lawyers are saying trans women will end up having to use disabled toilets if there aren’t designated toilets that they can use, eg mixed sex toilets.

Disabled people have enough problems trying to find toilets and ones that are free at the best of times.

Yep. There was a situation at a previous job I had where there was a trans-woman (I'm not sure whether they had the full surgery). There was a big argument about the toileting situation. Women didn't want this person using the female toilets. The person understandably didn't want to use the male toilets. Management's solution was for them to use the disabled toilet. The folk who needed the disabled toilets then kicked off about that. I'm not sure how it resolved itself.

On the point someone made earlier about how there doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with trans people using male toilets, in addition to the points others have made, I'd add that it is probably way more common for women to use male toilets than the other way about so I think a lot of men will be used to non-biological males or otherwise using the male toilets. It isn't uncommon at a gig or a pub for a woman to use the male toilet to avoid queues.

[Pretty Boy]

Yep. There was a situation at a previous job I had where there was a trans-woman (I'm not sure whether they had the full surgery). There was a big argument about the toileting situation. Women didn't want this person using the female toilets. The person understandably didn't want to use the male toilets. Management's solution was for them to use the disabled toilet. The folk who needed the disabled toilets then kicked off about that. I'm not sure how it resolved itself.

On the point someone made earlier about how there doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with trans people using male toilets, in addition to the points others have made, I'd add that it is probably way more common for women to use male toilets than the other way about so I think a lot of men will be used to non-biological males or otherwise using the male toilets. It isn't uncommon at a gig or a pub for a woman to use the male toilet to avoid queues.

Totally unrelated to the debate but I remember years ago at T in The Park a woman of a more mature vintage marching in to the frankly disgusting male toilet area, stating she was desperate and then proceeding to squat over the biohazard troughs they had the cheek to call urinals:faf:

I'm really not sure about the whole toilet, changing situation etc. A few years back I ran in a running event. The organisers stated that everyone could run under their chosen gender rather than biological sex which was no issue for me as I was unlikely to be threatening the winning enclosure in either the male or female category. They also stated there would be no segregated changing, toilet or showering facilities and everything would be gender neutral. I did find that problematic. The run was 50+ miles, at the end of it I had some pretty grim bleeding and chafing in my groin region. I just wanted to shower, put on some Sudocrem and get out of there. The issue was when I arrived in the changing rooms and shower area there was a group of about 6 women all standing and it was just an awkward 'what the **** do we do' moment. The showers had pretty flimsy half length curtains covering them and offered no real privacy and while I'm no prude I didn't feel at all comfortable showering, drying myself then smearing cream all over myself in front of a group of women; as much out of respect for not wanting to make them feel uncomfortable as anything else. In the end I decided to ride a bus for 40 minutes in pain and minging and shower in my B&B. I'm not opposed to gender neutral spaces in themselves but not at the expense of providing single sex spaces for those who want/need them. Several people gave constructive feedback to the organisers on their social media platform and were met with the invariable shrieks of 'transphobe' (which was bizarre because I don't think a single person mentioned trans people). The organisers doubled down and said they would not be changing to accommodate 'bigots'. It may be a coincidence but a race that used to go to a ballot to allocate the 1000 places now fails to attract a full field every year.

I'm not even convinced providing a 3rd option really resolves the issue on a moral or practical level. I've seen trans women on social media state that nothing will stop them using women's facilities, on the flip side I can't imagine entering a male toilet would be a pleasant experience for them yet mandating a 3rd option seems to be othering people which doesn't sit well with me either.

[Hibrandenburg]

Totally unrelated to the debate but I remember years ago at T in The Park a woman of a more mature vintage marching in to the frankly disgusting male toilet area, stating she was desperate and then proceeding to squat over the biohazard troughs they had the cheek to call urinals:faf:

I'm really not sure about the whole toilet, changing situation etc. A few years back I ran in a running event. The organisers stated that everyone could run under their chosen gender rather than biological sex which was no issue for me as I was unlikely to be threatening the winning enclosure in either the male or female category. They also stated there would be no segregated changing, toilet or showering facilities and everything would be gender neutral. I did find that problematic. The run was 50+ miles, at the end of it I had some pretty grim bleeding and chafing in my groin region. I just wanted to shower, put on some Sudocrem and get out of there. The issue was when I arrived in the changing rooms and shower area there was a group of about 6 women all standing and it was just an awkward 'what the **** do we do' moment. The showers had pretty flimsy half length curtains covering them and offered no real privacy and while I'm no prude I didn't feel at all comfortable showering, drying myself then smearing cream all over myself in front of a group of women; as much out of respect for not wanting to make them feel uncomfortable as anything else. In the end I decided to ride a bus for 40 minutes in pain and minging and shower in my B&B. I'm not opposed to gender neutral spaces in themselves but not at the expense of providing single sex spaces for those who want/need them. Several people gave constructive feedback to the organisers on their social media platform and were met with the invariable shrieks of 'transphobe' (which was bizarre because I don't think a single person mentioned trans people). The organisers doubled down and said they would not be changing to accommodate 'bigots'. It may be a coincidence but a race that used to go to a ballot to allocate the 1000 places now fails to attract a full field every year.

I'm not even convinced providing a 3rd option really resolves the issue on a moral or practical level. I've seen trans women on social media state that nothing will stop them using women's facilities, on the flip side I can't imagine entering a male toilet would be a pleasant experience for them yet mandating a 3rd option seems to be othering people which doesn't sit well with me either.

I guess everyone is different. I was on an exercise in Denmark and found myself on a supply run to a Danish army camp. I thought I'd take advantage of their shower facilities whilst I was there and they were mixed sex with no segregation, there were a few women in there but neither they nor I batted an eyelid.

It's the same in saunas here, most are mixed sex and wearing bathing costumes is frowned upon. I've always found the British attitude to nudity strange and prude if I'm being honest.

As for the trans rights debate, I've no influence on it whatsoever, but I'll continue to treat everyone with respect, regardless of what they have or don't have between their legs.

[lapsedhibee]

Totally unrelated to the debate but I remember years ago at T in The Park a woman of a more mature vintage marching in to the frankly disgusting male toilet area, stating she was desperate and then proceeding to squat over the biohazard troughs they had the cheek to call urinals:faf:

I'm really not sure about the whole toilet, changing situation etc. A few years back I ran in a running event. The organisers stated that everyone could run under their chosen gender rather than biological sex which was no issue for me as I was unlikely to be threatening the winning enclosure in either the male or female category. They also stated there would be no segregated changing, toilet or showering facilities and everything would be gender neutral. I did find that problematic. The run was 50+ miles, at the end of it I had some pretty grim bleeding and chafing in my groin region. I just wanted to shower, put on some Sudocrem and get out of there. The issue was when I arrived in the changing rooms and shower area there was a group of about 6 women all standing and it was just an awkward 'what the **** do we do' moment. The showers had pretty flimsy half length curtains covering them and offered no real privacy and while I'm no prude I didn't feel at all comfortable showering, drying myself then smearing cream all over myself in front of a group of women; as much out of respect for not wanting to make them feel uncomfortable as anything else. In the end I decided to ride a bus for 40 minutes in pain and minging and shower in my B&B. I'm not opposed to gender neutral spaces in themselves but not at the expense of providing single sex spaces for those who want/need them. Several people gave constructive feedback to the organisers on their social media platform and were met with the invariable shrieks of 'transphobe' (which was bizarre because I don't think a single person mentioned trans people). The organisers doubled down and said they would not be changing to accommodate 'bigots'. It may be a coincidence but a race that used to go to a ballot to allocate the 1000 places now fails to attract a full field every year.

I'm not even convinced providing a 3rd option really resolves the issue on a moral or practical level. I've seen trans women on social media state that nothing will stop them using women's facilities, on the flip side I can't imagine entering a male toilet would be a pleasant experience for them yet mandating a 3rd option seems to be othering people which doesn't sit well with me either.

Your post making me nostalgic for the days when toilet provision in sport wasn't an issue. At the old Hampden people just peed on the ash below their feet, and the person in front of them. Sell-out crowds too.

[Green Reaper]

The company I work for are based in Norton Park, opposite the West Stand, and the toilets are gender neutral, everyone seems fine with that and not heard anyone complaining.

[Berwickhibby]

I struggle why this issue is being made so complex, if someone needs to change sex, it should be their right and they should be supported throughout their journey. Once the journey is complete their documentation should read what their new sex is. However until it is complete, and this imho is a safeguard to those who would abuse the system for their own wants, ie Isla Bryson. Then they will have to continue as that sex until completion of their transformation.

[Moulin Yarns]

Just a question, can a trans man now legally access "women only" spaces because the Supreme Court has deemed them to be legally women? So a man can say he's trans (even though he's not) and get into women only spaces?

Is that the worst case scenario??

[superfurryhibby]

Just a question, can a trans man now legally access "women only" spaces because the Supreme Court has deemed them to be legally women? So a man can say he's trans (even though he's not) and get into women only spaces?

Is that the worst case scenario??

I have no idea what your actually asking?

You should probably read an article on the Supreme Court ruling.

[Green Reaper]

Just a question, can a trans man now legally access "women only" spaces because the Supreme Court has deemed them to be legally women? So a man can say he's trans (even though he's not) and get into women only spaces?

Is that the worst case scenario??

Does the Supreme Court ruling not actually mean the opposite, as it has been ruled that 'Female' in the context of the 2010 Equalities Act, now means a 'biological Female'?

[Moulin Yarns]

Does the Supreme Court ruling not actually mean the opposite, as it has been ruled that 'Female' in the context of the 2010 Equalities Act, now means a 'biological Female'?

Yeah but a trans man now must use the female toilets according to the supreme court. So the question is, what is there to stop a man claiming to be a trans man to access female toilets?

[CropleyWasGod]

Yeah but a trans man now must use the female toilets according to the supreme court. So the question is, what is there to stop a man claiming to be a trans man to access female toilets?

The same as there currently is to prevent CIS-men accessing female toilets.

BerwickHibby will clarify, but that's probably a breach of the peace, so the police can be called.

Coomon sense will prevail, eventually.

[500miles]

I struggle why this issue is being made so complex, if someone needs to change sex, it should be their right and they should be supported throughout their journey. Once the journey is complete their documentation should read what their new sex is. However until it is complete, and this imho is a safeguard to those who would abuse the system for their own wants, ie Isla Bryson. Then they will have to continue as that sex until completion of their transformation.

You can't change sex. You can have surgery to present more typically in alignment with your chosen gender identity, but you cannot change sex. It is immutable. That is the ultimate conclusion of this judgment. Trans people are still protected as trans people under the law, but trans women are not protected as women.

What we need now is a revision of trans rights to protect trans people in public spaces, because the assumption that trans women are women and trans men are men has meant that actual protective legislation has been sidelined by these mantras. Fully medically transitioned trans women are not equipped to present the same threat to biological women as intact males are, and the law should reflect that.

[Berwickhibby]

You can't change sex. You can have surgery to present more typically in alignment with your chosen gender identity, but you cannot change sex. It is immutable. That is the ultimate conclusion of this judgment. Trans people are still protected as trans people under the law, but trans women are not protected as women.

What we need now is a revision of trans rights to protect trans people in public spaces, because the assumption that trans women are women and trans men are men has meant that actual protective legislation has been sidelined by these mantras. Fully medically transitioned trans women are not equipped to present the same threat to biological women as intact males are, and the law should reflect that.

More eloquently explained than my post, but the point remains, once a person has surgery and aligned physically then they are imho that gender/sex and should be treated so. Up until then imho they should remain as their given birth sex to stop the charlatans abusing the system.

[jamie_1875]

More eloquently explained than my post, but the point remains, once a person has surgery and aligned physically then they are imho that gender/sex and should be treated so. Up until then imho they should remain as their given birth sex to stop the charlatans abusing the system.

I think the vast majority will agree and we Will likely see play out what you describe. This issue only ended up in court this week as the Scottish Government had changed to law to say a trans woman would count towards a gender balanced public sector board. So we could have had the crazy situation of having a public board of 6 people and all born male and it meeting the requirement of being gender balanced, none of them ever having had a period, a pregnancy or having gone through the menopause or any woman only experiences. It's an extreme example I know but that was the reality of the change they wanted to introduce. It's also hopefully puts an end to self ID in the public sector and fully intact males like Dr Upton of NHS Fife being empowered to use the female only spaces and woman being called transphobic just for sticking up for their rights by law.

[CropleyWasGod]

You can't change sex. You can have surgery to present more typically in alignment with your chosen gender identity, but you cannot change sex. It is immutable. That is the ultimate conclusion of this judgment. Trans people are still protected as trans people under the law, but trans women are not protected as women.

What we need now is a revision of trans rights to protect trans people in public spaces, because the assumption that trans women are women and trans men are men has meant that actual protective legislation has been sidelined by these mantras. Fully medically transitioned trans women are not equipped to present the same threat to biological women as intact males are, and the law should reflect that.

Agree with most of that, particularly the bit in bold.

My fear (echoed by colleagues in the community and allied groups) is that this week's judgement may further marginalise an already marginalised group. That may be an unintended consequence, but there also those who might use it deliberately.

[500miles]

Agree with most of that, particularly the bit in bold.

My fear (echoed by colleagues in the community and allied groups) is that this week's judgement may further marginalise an already marginalised group. That may be an unintended consequence, but there also those who might use it deliberately.

This isn't a one side bad situation. We've had 2 sides of extremists screaming at each other, and the people that could back up (or veil in some cases) thier argument with material, measurable reality have won.

You don't get to tell people to ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears without backlash, and that is what we will live through for a period.

[CropleyWasGod]

This isn't a one side bad situation. We've had 2 sides of extremists screaming at each other, and the people that could back up (or veil in some cases) thier argument with material, measurable reality have won.

You don't get to tell people to ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears without backlash, and that is what we will live through for a period.

Yeah, the judge was clear on that.

[Stairway 2 7]

This isn't a one side bad situation. We've had 2 sides of extremists screaming at each other, and the people that could back up (or veil in some cases) thier argument with material, measurable reality have won.

You don't get to tell people to ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears without backlash, and that is what we will live through for a period.

People have wanted to say this side means this or that. I've found the extremes are nuts. The Maggie Chapmans 5 year olds should be OK to medically transition and trans women are literally women, the other side saying grow up son your a man in a dress. I think the vast majority now say we would like trans and females to get as many freedoms as possible until one freedom affects another group

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm i a pub right now with 2 trannys who both look like bernard manning and les dawson, both are still using the ladies toilets and nobody is complaining.

For 99.9% of the country nothing will change and we wont notice any difference.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm i a pub right now with 2 trannys who both look like bernard manning and les dawson, both are still using the ladies toilets and nobody is complaining.

For 99.9% of the country nothing will change and we wont notice any difference.

I seem to recall meeting one of your tranny mates in Tenerife. Or maybe I'm getting my dressers crossed?

[blackpoolhibs]

I seem to recall meeting one of your tranny mates in Tenerife. Or maybe I'm getting my dressers crossed?

That might have been BoltonHibs :greengrin, dont know any in Tenerife, but Blackpool has more than its fair share. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/18/ruling-on-woman-definition-at-odds-with-uk-equality-acts-aim-says-ex-civil-servant



Someone has ****ed up! #justsaying

[matty_f]

This is what the end game of trans ideology looks; an all male final of a woman's pool championship. The woman's pool event wouldn't ordinarily have grabbed the headlines, for one curious detail: this year, there were no women in the final. It was played between two men.

Men do still have some biological advantages. These differences - though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists - are obvious to anyone with eyes, men have longer reach, are usually taller making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed.

Men also don’t get pregnant and are typically not the parent who puts career on the back burner to look after children - so take away the physical aspect and you still have a significant advantage as an man in terms of practice hours and playing time, not to mention that in heavily male dominated sports like darts and snooker, you’re far more likely to have started younger than a female in the same sport.

[147lothian]

Men also don’t get pregnant and are typically not the parent who puts career on the back burner to look after children - so take away the physical aspect and you still have a significant advantage as an man in terms of practice hours and playing time, not to mention that in heavily male dominated sports like darts and snooker, you’re far more likely to have started younger than a female in the same sport.

Totally, The UK Ultimate Pool Woman's final wouldn't have grabbed the headlines, except for one curious detail, this year there were no women in the final. It was played between two men, who no doubt had their £5 Gender Recognition Certificates but this doesn't make them women, former Olympic swimmer Sharon Davis described it as 'bloody ridiculous and grossly wrong in every way.

While it's true that, in pool, the difference between men and women might not be as pronounced as other, more physically demanding sports, men do still have biological advantages. These differences though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists are obvious to anyone with eyes. Males are generally taller have longer reach making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed. This to me is what the trans end game looks like, Men dominating Woman's sports, with no one willing to admit that biological sex matters

[Bristolhibby]

This is what the end game of trans ideology looks; an all male final of a woman's pool championship. The woman's pool event wouldn't ordinarily have grabbed the headlines, for one curious detail: this year, there were no women in the final. It was played between two men.

Men do still have some biological advantages. These differences - though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists - are obvious to anyone with eyes, men have longer reach, are usually taller making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed.

What about a tall woman? She has an advantage.

[Bristolhibby]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385.amp

The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women

Looks an absolute non issue to me. If you don’t want to **** someone, don’t **** them.

I’m sure the opposite is more true. Bloke takes a trans woman home thinking they are a biological female. Finds out later on that night that they have a *****. Decides it’s not for him and he goes home.

No drama.

J

[Bristolhibby]

In reality, rather than as a point of law, when it comes to toileting would anyone know? They might suspect but it would be a pretty terrible person that demanded someone lowered their trousers to prove it.

Areas such as open changing rooms or certain occupations (I'm thinking the Rape Crisis Scotland debacle) might be more problematic but when it comes to women's toilets in which individual cubicles are the norm I can't imagine it being as big an issue in real life as it apparently is on social media.

This. We all need to bring some reality and perspective to the conversation. Not 1 in a million made up hysteria.

J

[Ozyhibby]

This. We all need to bring some reality and perspective to the conversation. Not 1 in a million made up hysteria.

J

I think in time toilets will just be one per room with cubicles with shared wash facilities done away with.


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[Bristolhibby]

Just a question, can a trans man now legally access "women only" spaces because the Supreme Court has deemed them to be legally women? So a man can say he's trans (even though he's not) and get into women only spaces?

Is that the worst case scenario??

Correct. And if I was a militant Trans Activist that’s exactly what I’d do.

Full beard, tats, top surgery. Walk into a woman’s changing room get naked. Then stick my board shorts on and walk to the pool.

If it’s good for the goose it’s good for the gander.

Like I’ve said, most Trans people just want to get on with their lives having been dealt the cards of being born in the wrong body. It must be horrible to not feel and be your self.

J

[Bristolhibby]

I think in time toilets will just be one per room with cubicles with shared wash facilities done away with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That seems the obvious answer.

Changing rooms and tape crisis centers seem to be the massive thorn in the sides of sensible debate.

You could have (like I’ve used in many swimming pools), multiple cubicles that people just go into. When I shower there I just keep my trunks on.

I’m sure that will be the norm. Not sure how it would work in gyms, guess you could have shower cubicles too.

J

[jamie_1875]

What about a tall woman? She has an advantage.

Don't you think a young male who will have male snooker and pool role models to look up to and access to what is effectively a very male dominated environment has an advantage? A young male will have access to male coaches as well while the young female will likely have access to no female coaches and has no role models. It's a very male dominated sport so how do you think a woman would feel if she worked her way up to the top in the women's category only to find a man has either taken her space in a tournament so she can't compete at all or beaten her to a title etc. in a woman only category?

Should she just get on with it?

You don't think there is an element some men basically saying tough luck women, what you feel and believe here doesn't matter just accept men can play in your sport and the woman only category and just get on with it?

[lapsedhibee]

Not sure how it would work in gyms, guess you could have shower cubicles too.


Lpt of years ago now but the Commie Pool used to have shower cubicles in the male changing rooms. I don't think there are shower cubicles now, though I might have missed them.

[Stairway 2 7]

Quite a lot of men saying they don't think it's an issue so women should get on with it too. Personally I think the only voice that matters is females, if they want female only situations they should have them, whether sports, counselling, hostels or changing rooms.

[Stairway 2 7]

What about a tall woman? She has an advantage.

That's a ridiculous comparison. Periods is a much under valued issue in sports and working life. Many females are incapacitated one week in four. Add in pregnancy can take an enormous toll on a body. It isn't just height females muscle mass and bone density is completely different as is stamina, hence less sets in tennis.

It's hard for females to get the opportunities in sports that males get, taking away more and saying get on with it is terrible misogyny

[Moulin Yarns]

Quite a lot of men saying they don't think it's an issue so women should get on with it too. Personally I think the only voice that matters is females, if they want female only situations they should have them, whether sports, counselling, hostels or changing rooms.

So the trans community, both men and women, aren't allowed a voice. Take a look at the huge protests across the whole of the UK against the court ruling!

[Moulin Yarns]

Speaking to LBC, Melanie Field, an independent adviser on equality and human rights, who oversaw the Equality Act's drafting and passage through Westminster in 2010, has called for calm but warned this recent decision could be at odds with the act’s original goals.

She told LBC’s Paul Brand the legislation was meant to give transgender people with gender recognition certificates (GRCs) the same legal status as so-called “biological” men or women.

She said it was the “very clear” goal of the act that trans women with GRCs would be seen as women in the eyes of the law.

This will no longer be the case following the Supreme Court ruling.

Ms Field said: “So we're working in the context of that government policy and parliamentary intent that the gender recognition certificate should have the effect of changing a person's sex under sex discrimination law.

So that was the basis on which we drafted the Equality Act 2010. And there are a number of exceptions in there that recognise the importance of biological sex in the provision of, for example, single sex services.

“And we were very careful to draft those provisions in a way that they would enable trans people to be treated differently in relation to those services, regardless of whether or not they had a gender recognition certificate.

“So my worry is that this Supreme Court judgement, which is sought to provide Clarity in a very sort of noisy and confused context, by applying a different interpretation to those provisions may mean that the act doesn't work in the way that was intended.”

[Ozyhibby]

Quite a lot of men saying they don't think it's an issue so women should get on with it too. Personally I think the only voice that matters is females, if they want female only situations they should have them, whether sports, counselling, hostels or changing rooms.

I think we are heading to everyone having their own space.
As for sports, trans women should not be competing with biological women. I’m supportive of every other right but this is both a safety and fairness issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[speedy_gonzales]

It seems (on here at least) the general consensus is trans-women shouldn't compete with biological women in any sport.
I wonder what the view is of trans-men competing with biological women in sport is?

I do start to think a lot of onlookers/commentators (myself included) are getting hung up on very small points that will absolutely matter to some, but are not an issue for the wider trans or CIS community.
If we're looking at 0.5% of the population identifying as trans (last census), how many of that 0.5% are playing any sport at a level where being biologically male or female is gaining a significant advantage. At a guess, maybe 0.005%?
As mentioned before, I know two trans-guys (one quite closely), he's to all intents & purposes a regular guy and I'd doubt the vast majority of the public could identify him as female if they didn't know, but lately he's become quite introverted and it's because of the pile-on he receives on social media (mainly) from folk (again, maybe people like me) who get involved on the online commentary focusing on the points that affect a relative tiny percentage of trans persons and the wider general public.

[500miles]

It seems (on here at least) the general consensus is trans-women shouldn't compete with biological women in any sport.
I wonder what the view is of trans-men competing with biological women in sport is?

I do start to think a lot of onlookers/commentators (myself included) are getting hung up on very small points that will absolutely matter to some, but are not an issue for the wider trans or CIS community.


Trans men can't medically transition and compete in women's sport because they'd be caught up in banned substances rules. Trans men could probably have provisions made in the mens/ open category.

As to wider arguements, legislating in spite of 99% people's measurable and definable reality to accommodate a tiny minority belief system is absolutely mental.

[lapsedhibee]

to accommodate a tiny minority belief system is absolutely mental.

Alternatively, looking after vulnerable minorities is one mark of a civilised society, even if one of those minorities includes ONLY five hundred thousand people.

[Stairway 2 7]

So the trans community, both men and women, aren't allowed a voice. Take a look at the huge protests across the whole of the UK against the court ruling!

They should get a voice and have every right they can unless that takes away from someone else's right, ie single sex situations. I remember previously you said trans women should be able to compete in female sports, even defending a trans mma fighter. I think we'll look back in years to come how ridiculous it was.

[Stairway 2 7]

Alternatively, looking after vulnerable minorities is one mark of a civilised society, even if one of those minorities includes ONLY five hundred thousand people.

Looking after trans, shouldn't mean taking away from women. It's already illegal discriminate or abuse trans people and that won't change.

[500miles]

Alternatively, looking after vulnerable minorities is one mark of a civilised society, even if one of those minorities includes ONLY five hundred thousand people.

That's not alternative to what I'm saying at all. I've already highlighted that trans people should be protected under the law as trans people, which should be agreeable to everyone.

[Keith_M]

I have a colleague at work who is biologically male, but self identifies as a woman. My colleague asks that we use the feminine pronouns to refer to her, so we all do.

She looks, for all intents and purposes, like a traditional male, and uses the 'Mens' toilets in the office. If she suddenly felt uncomfortable doing so she would, under company rules, be allowed to use the mixed-sex/disabled toilets provided on every floor.

She is a very nice person and I have the greatest of respect for her... and as far as i know, so do the rest of my colleagues.



Why can't that just be the norm?

:confused:

[jamie_1875]

Alternatively, looking after vulnerable minorities is one mark of a civilised society, even if one of those minorities includes ONLY five hundred thousand people.

Trans people are already protected under the Equality Act, the ruling made no changes to that. The difficulty is the balancing of it all as when you start taking rights away from a huge % of the population to appease the feelings of a tiny minority it will lead to conflicts.

[lapsedhibee]

I have a colleague at work who is biologically male, but self identifies as a woman. My colleague asks that we use the feminine pronouns to refer to her, so we all do.

She looks, for all intents and purposes, like a traditional male, and uses the 'Mens' toilets in the office. If she suddenly felt uncomfortable doing so she would, under company rules, be allowed to use the mixed-sex/disabled toilets provided on every floor.

She is a very nice person and I have the greatest of respect for her... and as far as i know, so do the rest of my colleagues.



Why can't that just be the norm?

:confused:

By 'looks like a traditional male' do you mean she dresses in men's clothing?

[lapsedhibee]

Trans people are already protected under the Equality Act, the ruling made no changes to that. The difficulty is the balancing of it all as when you start taking rights away from a huge % of the population to appease the feelings of a tiny minority it will lead to conflicts.


I'm not well up on the fine detail of this. What specific right do you take away from a woman by allowing a trans woman to share a washhand basin area with her?

[jamie_1875]

I'm not well up on the fine detail of this. What specific right do you take away from a woman by allowing a trans woman to share a washhand basin area with her?

Going by the law then having a man in their legally protected space. For some women sharing a toilet or changing rooms with men is fine, for some it isn't and that's their right to object to that. I don't think us as men should be telling woman how they should act or feel about situations as you don't know their background and history. If you saw a woman objecting to this and told her she was being ridiculous how would you feel is she told you she was the victim of domestic abuse or worse and wanted the woman's toilets as a safe space for woman? Woman have fought hard to get their rights, we should not be chipping them away in my opinion so we don't hurt the feelings of a minority.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm not well up on the fine detail of this. What specific right do you take away from a woman by allowing a trans woman to share a washhand basin area with her?

Your deliberately picking the smallest issue to belittle all of the women's issues. Yes they won't have a problem with wash hand basin but things got so bizarre that the head of rape crisis Scotland was telling women who had been raped that they had bigoted views if they didn't want biological males in their hostels and support centres. You take away the right of a female to change naked at work with only their own biological sex. You take away their right to complete in sports with their own biological equivalent. You take away their right to have intimate medical care from your own sex if that is your choice. You take away lesbians rights to have groups and support that is biological female only

[jamie_1875]

I think the extreme trans activists don't really help the trans cause. The protest today in Edinburgh they sang about "giving us wombs and titties"

https://x.com/satiricole/status/1913621479264076011?t=7cbQGy4TSvUuxBOKA41ayg&s=19

Does this help trans people and the public opinion?

[lapsedhibee]

Going by the law then having a man in their legally protected space. For some women sharing a toilet or changing rooms with men is fine, for some it isn't and that's their right to object to that. I don't think us as men should be telling woman how they should act or feel about situations as you don't know their background and history. If you saw a woman objecting to this and told her she was being ridiculous how would you feel is she told you she was the victim of domestic abuse or worse and wanted the woman's toilets as a safe space for woman? Woman have fought hard to get their rights, we should not be chipping them away in my opinion so we don't hurt the feelings of a minority.

They fought hard to get the vote, fought hard to get equal pay, etc etc etc. Did they really fight for the right to separate toilets? When did that happen? Didn't men just decide/assume that they should have separate toilets? Was there a time in the long-ago when toilets were shared? dunno:

[lapsedhibee]

Your deliberately picking the smallest issue to belittle all of the women's issues. Yes they won't have a problem with wash hand basin but things got so bizarre that the head of rape crisis Scotland was telling women who had been raped that they had bigoted views if they didn't want biological males in their hostels and support centres. You take away the right of a female to change naked at work with only their own biological sex. You take away their right to complete in sports with their own biological equivalent. You take away their right to have intimate medical care from your own sex if that is your choice. You take away lesbians rights to have groups and support that is biological female only

Not doing anything of the sort.

[jamie_1875]

They fought hard to get the vote, fought hard to get equal pay, etc etc etc. Did they really fight for the right to separate toilets? When did that happen? Didn't men just decide/assume that they should have separate toilets? Was there a time in the long-ago when toilets were shared? dunno:

If you don't support woman having their own spaces just come out and say so? If you really are interested though.

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

[Stairway 2 7]

Not doing anything of the sort.

You are, even in the reply above your focusing on toilets saying did they really fight for that. In reality that's one of the smaller issues, especially next to something like single sex support for people who have been raped or hostels for domestic violence victims etc

[lapsedhibee]

If you don't support woman having their own spaces just come out and say so? If you really are interested though.

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

Interesting article thanks but I read that as women campaigning for public toilets, not campaigning for single sex toilets. In a similar way, women more recently have campaigned for access to other sorts of place from which they were previously unfairly excluded, like golf clubs and bits of Lords cricket ground.

I still don't fully understand why people of all genders and none seem happy to share swimming pools but not wash hand basins.

The wash hand basins issue is nothing to do with trans people in sport. Who takes part in sporting competitions, like the manner in which the competitions are run, is surely a matter of fairness rather than 'rights that women have fought hard for and don't want to give up'.

Perhaps it would be better if how public, workplace etc toilets are to be managed should also be a matter of fairness. At the moment it seems you have to be a warrior for either TERFS or trans people. How fair is it that 500,000 people should be othered, or be required to other themselves, just because they are, according to some of the warriors on this board, a 'tiny minority'?

[lapsedhibee]

You are, even in the reply above your focusing on toilets saying did they really fight for that. In reality that's one of the smaller issues, especially next to something like single sex support for people who have been raped or hostels for domestic violence victims etc

A lot of the mass media focus seems to be on the management of toilet facilities. And with it a lot of sloppy thinking and headlines based on very vocal minorities on two sides of an argument which probably should not be two-sided, as it's essentially about balancing and protecting the vulnerabilities of two groups of vulnerable people, one of them very large and one very small. It's a bit unhealthy in our society that going for a pee and washing your hands is mixed up with rape.

[Keith_M]

By 'looks like a traditional male' do you mean she dresses in men's clothing?


I'm sure you know exactly what I mean.

[Stairway 2 7]

A lot of the mass media focus seems to be on the management of toilet facilities. And with it a lot of sloppy thinking and headlines based on very vocal minorities on two sides of an argument which probably should not be two-sided, as it's essentially about balancing and protecting the vulnerabilities of two groups of vulnerable people, one of them very large and one very small. It's a bit unhealthy in our society that going for a pee and washing your hands is mixed up with rape.

To be honest your the one only wanting to talk about toilets which is a small issue compared to the problems that came when Scots gov said trans women are literally women. You can't have one or the other in law. By saying they were literally women it led to biological male rapists going into women's prisons, BM going into women's hostels and abuse shelters, BM giving females intimate care even if they requested females, BM playing in female sports, BM needing to be included in lesbian support groups and the head of Rape crisis Scotland saying female victims of rape needed reeducation to stop there bigotry if the didn't want BM in their groups and support.

If I was trying to ignore the many real and worrying problems that comes with saying trans women are literally women, I'd keep bringing up silly little washhand basins, titter

[lapsedhibee]

I'm sure you know exactly what I mean.

I don't because I've never as far as I know been in your workplace.

You're asking why can't that be the norm, since she and everyone else is so comfortable with the arrangement. But if she dresses as a woman, are you suggesting she's just as comfortable using men's toilets everywhere as she is using them in the relatively cosy atmosphere of your workplace? :dunno:

[lapsedhibee]

To be honest your the one only wanting to talk about toilets which is a small issue compared to the problems that came when Scots gov said trans women are literally women. You can't have one or the other in law. By saying they were literally women it led to biological male rapists going into women's prisons, BM going into women's hostels and abuse shelters, BM giving females intimate care even if they requested females, BM playing in female sports, BM needing to be included in lesbian support groups and the head of Rape crisis Scotland saying female victims of rape needed reeducation to stop there bigotry if the didn't want BM in their groups and support.

If I was trying to ignore the many real and worrying problems that comes with saying trans women are literally women, I'd keep bringing up silly little washhand basins, titter

You seem completely unable to separate the question I was asking from your general warlike stance on women's safety. I don't disagree with any of it. I hope you get your medal when they're dished out.

[147lothian]

Does the Supreme Court ruling not actually mean the opposite, as it has been ruled that 'Female' in the context of the 2010 Equalities Act, now means a 'biological Female'?

Yes it does, I blame Sturgeon's Scots Government for causing the confusion that made the Supreme Court ruling necessary. When Sturgeon said that trans women are women The Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act got muddled, so that if a hetrosexual man got a piece of paper saying that he is a women and is a lesbian, any lesbian group of more than 25 would by law have to admit him, so freedom of association was destroyed.

While I see the Supreme Court ruling as a win for common sense, part of me thinks that it's insane the amount of money that will have been spent and legislative time on something so basic and obvious, it's nuts that we need lawyers and judges to tell us what a women is when it's just patently obvious. They account for around half of the worlds population.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes it does, I blame Sturgeon's Scots Government for causing the confusion that made the Supreme Court ruling necessary. When Sturgeon said that trans women are women The Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act got muddled, so that if a hetrosexual man got a piece of paper saying that he is a women and is a lesbian, any lesbian group of more than 25 would by law have to admit him, so freedom of association was destroyed.

While I see the Supreme Court ruling as a win for common sense, part of me thinks that it's insane the amount of money that will have been spent and legislative time on something so basic and obvious, it's nuts that we need lawyers and judges to tell us what a women is when it's just patently obvious. They account for around half of the worlds population.

Doubt the current SG will be spending any money or time on it now. New leadership, new direction.


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[Keith_M]

Doubt the current SG will be spending any money or time on it now. New leadership, new direction.


I think John Swinney already said as much, that they fully accept the decision and have no plans to contest it.

I agree with the previous poster as well that said it reflects badly on the SNP/Greens that they spent so much time and money on this in the first place.

It's also not a good look for Scottish Labour (particularly Sarwar), who seem to be forgetting, that they also voted in favour of the policy.

[Stairway 2 7]

You seem completely unable to separate the question I was asking from your general warlike stance on women's safety. I don't disagree with any of it. I hope you get your medal when they're dished out.

The point is it can't be separated. By scot gov saying GRA makes trans literally a woman then all female spaces are grouped together, from wash hand basins to support groups. It doesn't effect me personally but my wife and daughter are happy with the decision. Hopefully women can get their own spaces and groups going forward and unisex toilets become much more common and people can get on with the real issues like gas prices and a genocide in Gaza. Thankfully Swinney looks like he's done with the culture wars and is moving on, I think the old damage is done to the SNP and they won't be effected going forward. Sarwar is rightfully getting slammed for looking like a revisionist

[Bristolhibby]

I think John Swinney already said as much, that they fully accept the decision and have no plans to contest it.

I agree with the previous poster as well that said it reflects badly on the SNP/Greens that they spent so much time and money on this in the first place.

It's also not a good look for Scottish Labour (particularly Sarwar), who seem to be forgetting, that they also voted in favour of the policy.

I wonder if this was the pushing of the greens on the SNP/Green government.

Without the Greens I’d be distancing myself from the third rail that this issue bizarrely seems to have become. Concentrate on Independence. Sell that vision. Stick to the rasion d’etre.

J

[superfurryhibby]

Interesting to read the conversation on here and compare some of it to my other social media.

I'm a supporter of the supreme court ruling. Self certification and the like isn't enough of a qualifying criteria for people with penises to access protected spaces designated for women. Organisations were tying themselves in knots about this kind of thing, now they have clarity.

I've been castigated on a personal level for pointing out to a Facebook friend that the court ruling in no way compromises Trans people's rights under the Equalities Act. The person in question is 21, a student and immersed in arts and culture. They claim so so many of their friends are hurting as a result of this decision, say that I only know one Trans person (a fairly close family member as it happens) and equate JK Rowling with exerting influence comparable to the like of Musk and his Cabal of Oligarchs.

Freedom of thought and the right to have a different opinion, presenting it in a non agitated way for debate, well that's apparently not acceptable to the self-righteous liberal young person..

Culture War is for me just another facet of the mass manipulation of people. We are such a divided society, the rise of the populism and the far right, the ****ing up of young people through overuse of mobile devices, de-sensitisation and exposure to porn, violence and nihilism, the cult of influential
right wing individuals, disillusionment with politicians etc, etc.....it's not taking us to a good place.

[Bishop Hibee]

Hurt feelings cannot justify the expressions of hatred towards anyone who agrees with the Supreme Court ruling that I’ve seen via and on social media. Some very unhinged individuals amongst the trans community.

[MKHIBEE]

Hurt feelings cannot justify the expressions of hatred towards anyone who agrees with the Supreme Court ruling that I’ve seen via and on social media. Some very unhinged individuals amongst the trans community.

I have no doubt there are, just as there are in the mainstream communities.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hurt feelings cannot justify the expressions of hatred towards anyone who agrees with the Supreme Court ruling that I’ve seen via and on social media. Some very unhinged individuals amongst the trans community.

That's what happens when views become polarised, you get nutcases on both sides.

[Ozyhibby]

SG will not bring any more gender legislation forward. The issue is over as far as the SNP are concerned.


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[147lothian]

SG will not bring any more gender legislation forward. The issue is over as far as the SNP are concerned.


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It's not just the SNP who realized they were on the wrong side of public opinion with this issue, Kier Starmer said that he welcomed the decision of the Supreme Court and that it has given us much needed clarity, when asked if a trans women is an actual women, Kier Starmer said that a woman is an adult human female.

[superfurryhibby]

That's what happens when views become polarised, you get nutcases on both sides.

Yes, indeed.

I also think when such priority and influence is given to a minority issue it creates that very divisive polemic in mainstream society.

For me, the culture war aspect is very significant. How did self certification and access to gender protected safe spaces ever get to be such a significant issue in western society to begin with?

The cynic can't help thinking it's something semi manufactured that serves the interests of those who benefit from right wing populism. Trump, Reform and the far right and their supporters must love it.

[Kato]

The cynic can't help thinking it's something semi manufactured that serves the interests of those who benefit from right wing populism. Trump, Reform and the far right and their supporters must love it.

You don't have to be cynic, it is exactly that and they do.

In the late 70s when NF supporters were ruining gigs an NME writer said if the Tufty Club salute was seen as disgraceful those idiots would be doing that, and the very next week skinheads were seen doing the Tufty Club salute.

Anything seen as divisive - they will be upon it and radicalising polarising views.

What requires a nuanced, calm discussion will now be cluttered with raging bams.

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[Bristolhibby]

Yes, indeed.

I also think when such priority and influence is given to a minority issue it creates that very divisive polemic in mainstream society.

For me, the culture war aspect is very significant. How did self certification and access to gender protected safe spaces ever get to be such a significant issue in western society to begin with?

The cynic can't help thinking it's something semi manufactured that serves the interests of those who benefit from right wing populism. Trump, Reform and the far right and their supporters must love it.

There’s nothing cynical about it. That’s exactly what happened. Populists love these issues. Things that don’t need evidence people can “feel” it. Then use it as a wedge for every other policy.

The boats, bin collection in Birmingham, Brexit, potholes, trans people, COVID Vaccine, “woke”, BLM.

Standard right wing playbook.

In America Chuck in Abortion, more immigrants, Israel, guns and you have a full set.

J

[jamie_1875]

Are people suggesting the trans issues we are seeing now were manufactured by "right wing" groups or people?

How does that explain the extreme trans activists that pushed this hard, the politicians from all parties who pushed this and the likes of the deranged Maggie Chapman who wants children to transition etc? Was Nicola Sturgeon who was a big supporter really fooled by right wing propaganda and was so easily fooled to push the trans agenda? I mean we literally heard nothing about this until it was progressed by the Scottish Government and the SNP/Greens, were they so easily manipulated? Really?

Unless I am totally misunderstanding the last few posts (which is perfectly possible to be fair)

[Hibrandenburg]

Are people suggesting the trans issues we are seeing now were manufactured by "right wing" groups or people?

How does that explain the extreme trans activists that pushed this hard, the politicians from all parties who pushed this and the likes of the deranged Maggie Chapman who wants children to transition etc? Was Nicola Sturgeon who was a big supporter really fooled by right wing propaganda and was so easily fooled to push the trans agenda? I mean we literally heard nothing about this until it was progressed by the Scottish Government and the SNP/Greens, were they so easily manipulated? Really?

Unless I am totally misunderstanding the last few posts (which is perfectly possible to be fair)

I think you're totally misunderstanding the last few posts.

[wookie70]

You don't have to be cynic, it is exactly that and they do.

In the late 70s when NF supporters were ruining gigs an NME writer said if the Tufty Club salute was seen as disgraceful those idiots would be doing that, and the very next week skinheads were seen doing the Tufty Club salute.

Anything seen as divisive - they will be upon it and radicalising polarising views.

What requires a nuanced, calm discussion will now be cluttered with raging bams.

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They have been doing it for decades if not 100s of years. What makes it worse is the left can't win elections against such obvious tactics despite knowing exactly what the playbook of teh other side will be. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6OLyRdydZU&ab_channel=RebelHQ
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6OLyRdydZU&ab_channel=RebelHQ)

[Pretty Boy]

There’s nothing cynical about it. That’s exactly what happened. Populists love these issues. Things that don’t need evidence people can “feel” it. Then use it as a wedge for every other policy.

The boats, bin collection in Birmingham, Brexit, potholes, trans people, COVID Vaccine, “woke”, BLM.

Standard right wing playbook.

In America Chuck in Abortion, more immigrants, Israel, guns and you have a full set.

J

I've always maintained that if everyone enjoyed a decent basic standard of living, were paid wages that allowed them to both meet their essential needs and have a bit enjoyment in their life, could afford to buy a house or rent at a rate that didn't hoover up over 50% of their income and had access to public services that were properly functioning then pretty much every 'biggest threat to ever face our country' would disappear or at least significantly quieten down overnight.

That's dangerous 'extreme left' thinking these days though which is exactly why these issues are highlighted to such extreme levels. It's all to create division, fracture working class solidarity and distract from the real enemy. There is a reason actual billionaires pay people from Farage at the top end to a weasel like Darren Grimes on social media huge amounts of money to spew the rhetoric. The latest 'outrage' seems to be feeding children FFS.

I 100% believe if people were happy and content in their own lives they would find the utter bull**** being thrown around laughable rather than something to be genuinely upset about.

[Kato]

I've always maintained that if everyone enjoyed a decent basic standard of living, were paid wages that allowed them to both meet their essential needs and have a bit enjoyment in their life, could afford to buy a house or rent at a rate that didn't hoover up over 50% of their income and had access to public services that were properly functioning then pretty much every 'biggest threat to ever face our country' would disappear or at least significantly quieten down overnight.

That's dangerous 'extreme left' thinking these days though which is exactly why these issues are highlighted to such extreme levels. It's all to create division, fracture working class solidarity and distract from the real enemy. There is a reason actual billionaires pay people from Farage at the top end to a weasel like Darren Grimes on social media huge amounts of money to spew the rhetoric. The latest 'outrage' seems to be feeding children FFS.

I 100% believe if people were happy and content in their own lives they would find the utter bull**** being thrown around laughable rather than something to be genuinely upset about.That is exactly it.


....and it's no mistake that the right wing "messaging" has shot up since 2008, as what was required after that was a bit of socialism. A bit is too much for them however.

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[Andy Bee]

I've always maintained that if everyone enjoyed a decent basic standard of living, were paid wages that allowed them to both meet their essential needs and have a bit enjoyment in their life, could afford to buy a house or rent at a rate that didn't hoover up over 50% of their income and had access to public services that were properly functioning then pretty much every 'biggest threat to ever face our country' would disappear or at least significantly quieten down overnight.

That's dangerous 'extreme left' thinking these days though which is exactly why these issues are highlighted to such extreme levels. It's all to create division, fracture working class solidarity and distract from the real enemy. There is a reason actual billionaires pay people from Farage at the top end to a weasel like Darren Grimes on social media huge amounts of money to spew the rhetoric. The latest 'outrage' seems to be feeding children FFS.

I 100% believe if people were happy and content in their own lives they would find the utter bull**** being thrown around laughable rather than something to be genuinely upset about.

Your 1st paragraph is basically just about all if not the vast majority of Scandinavian countries and a whole lot more besides. It's not radical to think like that, it's certainly not "extreme left" but unfortunately in the UK two party system we have 650 people, backed up by the MSM that are more incentivised to try to either keep or gain power which doesn't always align to what's best for the country or its people.

[Bostonhibby]

Your 1st paragraph is basically just about all if not the vast majority of Scandinavian countries and a whole lot more besides. It's not radical to think like that, it's certainly not "extreme left" but unfortunately in the UK two party system we have 650 people, backed up by the MSM that are more incentivised to try to either keep or gain power which doesn't always align to what's best for the country or its people.All of this, and what PB says above pretty much sums it up for me. If only it wasn't for vested interest and the greedy and powerful wanting even more of what they already have.

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[superfurryhibby]

I've always maintained that if everyone enjoyed a decent basic standard of living, were paid wages that allowed them to both meet their essential needs and have a bit enjoyment in their life, could afford to buy a house or rent at a rate that didn't hoover up over 50% of their income and had access to public services that were properly functioning then pretty much every 'biggest threat to ever face our country' would disappear or at least significantly quieten down overnight.

That's dangerous 'extreme left' thinking these days though which is exactly why these issues are highlighted to such extreme levels. It's all to create division, fracture working class solidarity and distract from the real enemy. There is a reason actual billionaires pay people from Farage at the top end to a weasel like Darren Grimes on social media huge amounts of money to spew the rhetoric. The latest 'outrage' seems to be feeding children FFS.

I 100% believe if people were happy and content in their own lives they would find the utter bull**** being thrown around laughable rather than something to be genuinely upset about.

Social and economic justice in other words. Who can disagree with what you say other than those that benefit from squeezing every ounce from people. Of course they're not all super wealthy. There is benefit for people all the way down a food chain of exploitative, socially regressive, economic opportunity.

Earlier in the thread Jamie was asking why the centre and centre left parties have run with the trans extreme agenda. I'm no political analyst, but I see the trickle down effect from the impotent American liberal left. In the USA they have no direct political power, but can work within and influence organisations. What happened in Scotland was mirrored elsewhere, it wasn't unique.

Whether Sturgeon believed in what her government was promoting is a moot point. Either way, It was a huge misjudgement from the SNP, they should have saved their radical focus for matters relating to independence.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1ARGi5X8wj/


Absolutely worth a read. IMHO.

[500miles]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1ARGi5X8wj/


Absolutely worth a read. IMHO.

"Objective reality doesn't matter, feelings and clothes do"

Come on, we live in a material, definable world. The denial of that importance, the writing off of anyone who understands that as a bigot, is a kind of religious zelotry.
If you ask people to deny the evidence of their eyes and ears they will ask questions, and if you can't give them a straight answer, they won't be happy - and rightly so. It's just gaslighting.


Stood down from politics to speak to rooms of people who agree with her and laugh at her jokes. Tough talking flop.

[Stairway 2 7]

"Objective reality doesn't matter, feelings and clothes do"

Come on, we live in a material, definable world. The denial of that importance, the writing off of anyone who understands that as a bigot, is a kind of religious zelotry.
If you ask people to deny the evidence of their eyes and ears they will ask questions, and if you can't give them a straight answer, they won't be happy - and rightly so. It's just gaslighting.


Stood down from politics to speak to rooms of people who agree with her and laugh at her jokes. Tough talking flop.

The if you don't agree with trans women being in every women's field then your a fascist right winger, is the kind of thing that has reform and Trump flying. A huge othering of the working classes who are disenfranchised and don't agree with the liberal bourgeois left on many subjects, like biological males hammering women at sports for example, or the middle class in the greens saying don't build houses when thousands can't get a home.

Marina Hyde wrote a good article on the bollocks her words of the lefts tactic of issue bundling. All these varied subjects and issues are left because I say they are and if your disagree with any then you are Trump. She goes into it through the subject of the academy fawning over its star trans women Karla Sofía Gascón, it then coming out she was a horrible bigot and the academy crying

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/07/oscars-award-emilia-perez-progressive

[jamie_1875]

John Swinney still can't answer if a trans woman is a woman. Has been asked multiple times but won't answer, it was a real opportunity for him to take a different path but he avoids answering the question every time. With the court ruling I don't see why he can't have the confidence to answer. If the SNP want this to go away he should be able to answer this question.

[Ozyhibby]

John Swinney still can't answer if a trans woman is a woman. Has been asked multiple times but won't answer, it was a real opportunity for him to take a different path but he avoids answering the question every time. With the court ruling I don't see why he can't have the confidence to answer. If the SNP want this to go away he should be able to answer this question.

The SNP have moved on and are complying with the law. There are more important issues in Scotland.
You seem obsessed with the subject.


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[jamie_1875]

The SNP have moved on and are complying with the law. There are more important issues in Scotland.
You seem obsessed with the subject.


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Not as obsessed with you and Labour! But I think it's important that our First Minister can answer questions when asked and give a direct answer, not avoid them.

[Keith_M]

Not as obsessed with you and Labour! But I think it's important that our First Minister can answer questions when asked and give a direct answer, not avoid them.


Politicians giving direct answers?

Not in this universe.

[jamie_1875]

Politicians giving direct answers?

Not in this universe.

I know but on this question it's a fairly simple answer, he was asked multiple times in the immediate aftermath of the court ruling and couldn't answer, he was asked at anti right wing summit (or whatever it was) and couldn't answer, Patrick Harvie and Ash Regan answered with a direct Yes and No and he was asked again today. It's obvious he is scared to upset the trans lobby and I know people want this to go away, it would surely go away faster if he could answer the question.

[CropleyWasGod]

I know but on this question it's a fairly simple answer, he was asked multiple times in the immediate aftermath of the court ruling and couldn't answer, he was asked at anti right wing summit (or whatever it was) and couldn't answer, Patrick Harvie and Ash Regan answered with a direct Yes and No and he was asked again today. It's obvious he is scared to upset the trans lobby and I know people want this to go away, it would surely go away faster if he could answer the question.

You also know that the questioning is about political point-scoring. Whatever he says, whether he says anything, he will be pilloried.

Qed.

[Ozyhibby]

You also know that the questioning is about political point-scoring. Whatever he says, whether he says anything, he will be pilloried.

Qed.

And it doesn’t matter. The law is set and the SNP have no intention of changing it. They are leaving culture wars behind and focussing on the economy.
Certain people are desperate to keep the issue alive.


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[CropleyWasGod]

And it doesn’t matter. The law is set and the SNP have no intention of changing it. They are leaving culture wars behind and focussing on the economy.
Certain people are desperate to keep the issue alive.


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I'd agree that the issue will no longer be a party-political one. And that's the way it should be.

It will remain one at grass-roots level, though.

[Stairway 2 7]

And it doesn’t matter. The law is set and the SNP have no intention of changing it. They are leaving culture wars behind and focussing on the economy.
Certain people are desperate to keep the issue alive.


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I hope so but they should make it clear soon, as it will be damaging until it's sorted

The first minister said: "We are considering the details of the Supreme Court judgment, taking the necessary advice from the Equalities and Human Rights Commission about the application of that advice, and that will have a bearing on the judgments that are made in relation to public services and I would expect... all public bodies to operate on that basis and within the law."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0kxr4y3mv8o.amp

[Ozyhibby]

I hope so but they should make it clear soon, as it will be damaging until it's sorted

The first minister said: "We are considering the details of the Supreme Court judgment, taking the necessary advice from the Equalities and Human Rights Commission about the application of that advice, and that will have a bearing on the judgments that are made in relation to public services and I would expect... all public bodies to operate on that basis and within the law."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0kxr4y3mv8o.amp

That is pretty clear? They are going to apply the law? Not much else to be said.
With Forbes part of leadership team there is no way they do anything else.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Also I'd say Swinney should have sacked the looney Maggie Chapman as deputy of the Equalities, Human Rights & Civil Justice Committee when she said 6 year olds should be allowed to medically transition, her having no medical background. Her saying yesterday that the court acted out of bigotry and prejudice should surely be the final nail

[Ozyhibby]

Also I'd say Swinney should have sacked the looney Maggie Chapman as deputy of the Equalities, Human Rights & Civil Justice Committee when she said 6 year olds should be allowed to medically transition, her having no medical background. Her saying yesterday that the court acted out of bigotry and prejudice should surely be the final nail

Can he do that? Isn’t she a green?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Can he do that? Isn’t she a green?


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Obviously he can't personally sack her, but he must condemn the US republican like comments, attacking the law. He could call for her to step down from the committee. He basically said he disagreed with her opinion. How can both sides of the argument move forward when she is deputy. The faculty of Advocates have made an official complaint against her

The tories have tabled a motion on the committee for her to be removed if the 3 SNP members agree she will be out we'll see I suppose

[Moulin Yarns]

Obviously he can't personally sack her, but he must condemn the US republican like comments, attacking the law. He could call for her to step down from the committee. He basically said he disagreed with her opinion. How can both sides of the argument move forward when she is deputy. The faculty of Advocates have made an official complaint against her

The tories have tabled a motion on the committee for her to be removed if the 3 SNP members agree she will be out we'll see I suppose

There is no mechanism for any msp to be sack!!

We've been here before, they can be suspended and the whip removed.

[Stairway 2 7]

There is no mechanism for any msp to be sack!!

We've been here before, they can be suspended and the whip removed.

Whip removed is basically sacked from the party, then she has zero chance as an independent in the next election. But I clarified that obviously Swinney can't personally sack her from the equalities committee but he can have her removed. As the tories have tabled the motion, and if SNP go with it it then goes to parliament. Obviously she has no chance in parliament if the SNP want her sacked from the committee.

It will be interesting how it pans out the pressure from both sides will be big. If they back her a lot of the public will be against, if they get her out the greens will have a hissy

[Kato]

https://youtu.be/PFHVYKrNpNk?si=KhMnaz4hNfhIKbtv

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[Ozyhibby]

Whip removed is basically sacked from the party, then she has zero chance as an independent in the next election. But I clarified that obviously Swinney can't personally sack her from the equalities committee but he can have her removed. As the tories have tabled the motion, and if SNP go with it it then goes to parliament. Obviously she has no chance in parliament if the SNP want her sacked from the committee.

It will be interesting how it pans out the pressure from both sides will be big. If they back her a lot of the public will be against, if they get her out the greens will have a hissy

He can’t remove whip as not his party.


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[500miles]

https://youtu.be/PFHVYKrNpNk?si=KhMnaz4hNfhIKbtv

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In order to accommodate the unsubstantiated beliefs of 1% of the population, we must change everyone else's lives, as those beliefs demand the participation of everyone else.

And I think the athlete he was referring to was Caster Semenya, who has admitted having internal testes and is indeed male and should have been competing in that category.

We should not legislate according to a tiny minorities belief systems, particularly those which fly in the face of measurable and definable reality. I know I'm repeating myself but for reasons already outlined, it's a disaster.

[Kato]

In order to accommodate the unsubstantiated beliefs of 1% of the population, we must change everyone else's lives, as those beliefs demand the participation of everyone else.

And I think the athlete he was referring to was Caster Semenya, who has admitted having internal testes and is indeed male and should have been competing in that category.

We should not legislate according to a tiny minorities belief systems, particularly those which fly in the face of measurable and definable reality. I know I'm repeating myself but for reasons already outlined, it's a disaster.You have a point. I don't know much about the specific cases you mention and don't really have any quibbles.

There is also way more pressing matters among the general population, I agree. The courts have made their decision so maybe the far more prevalent concern of male violence against women could be addressed by those new activists for women's rights who have been energised the last few years.

What I took from the clip was the idea that society is in a state of flux with the matter and sober discussion towards a solution, which will take time, is required - rather than point scoring and rigid positions.

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[Stairway 2 7]

He can’t remove whip as not his party.


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Yes obviously, I thought it didn't need saying that it's the greens that can remove the whip, obviously they won't because they probably think it's acceptable to say the court is bigoted.

He can whip his MSPs in the committee to back the Conservative motion to have her removed from deputy of the equalities committee. It then goes for a majority in parliament to agree if he whips it then she's out. She obviously should get booted if he's moving in from her rhetoric, but the greens won't be happy with him. It's going to be a clear side taking and I'm interested how it'll go next week

[147lothian]

I'm not well up on the fine detail of this. What specific right do you take away from a woman by allowing a trans woman to share a washhand basin area with her?

Britain's supreme court rules that women legally exist and trans activists have a temper tantrum, women's washrooms and changing areas being protected areas for women only is like the rise of the fourth reich for trans activists, placards that read "The only good TERF is a dead one, are aimed at Lesbians who don't accept that men who identify as women into their dating pool and women who want protected single sex spaces. Its deeply misogynistic.

[Ozyhibby]

Britain's supreme court rules that women legally exist and trans activists have a temper tantrum, women's washrooms and changing areas being protected areas for women only is like the rise of the fourth reich for trans activists, placards that read "The only good TERF is a dead one, are aimed at Lesbians who don't accept that men who identify as women into their dating pool and women who want protected single sex spaces. Its deeply misogynistic.

Lucky we have your balanced viewpoint.[emoji23]


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[147lothian]

Lucky we have your balanced viewpoint.[emoji23]


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Its more balanced than Maggie Chapman and Patrick Harvie's, the green tail is no longer wagging the SNP dog but we still don't know where Brian Sweeney is on the issue.

[500miles]

Lucky we have your balanced viewpoint.[emoji23]


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To be fair, the only difference between the people holding placards about killing TERFs and me is the the clothes they wear. You can bet if I was marching about the city centre with a sign saying "Feminists can suck my xxxx", there wouldn't be a "Well what it actually means....." type reaction.

People are giving their own tribes an incredible amount of leeway here. Everything within their bubble has an excuse and everyone outside is a facist, or on the opposing end a communist.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.libdems.org.uk/news/article/lib-dem-response-to-the-for-women-scotland-case

The Liberal Democrats response.

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.libdems.org.uk/news/article/lib-dem-response-to-the-for-women-scotland-case

The Liberal Democrats response.

Perhaps the Lib Dems could elaborate on what they would do, rather than just state the obvious?

[CropleyWasGod]

Perhaps the Lib Dems could elaborate on what they would do, rather than just state the obvious?

... whatever it takes to get them into Government? :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

Perhaps the Lib Dems could elaborate on what they would do, rather than just state the obvious?

I think they are clear in what they are asking for.

However, given what she said, I am sure that she will agree with me that that should not come at the cost of the human rights and the security of another vulnerable group in society, which is what this ruling threatens to bring about. Could she explain where transgender people fleeing violence can now go for refuge, if they are to be completely excluded from refuges?

"For years, we have had this intolerable debate, in which two vulnerable groups have been pitted against each other. Those two groups are afraid of the same thing—violence, mostly from men.*

"The challenge for this Labour Government is to live up to the spirit of perhaps one of the proudest achievements of a previous Labour Government—the Equality Act—and protect everyone. If this Government are not able to do that, does the Minister think it would be acceptable to see trans women forced into men’s toilets, to face goodness knows what sort of aggression, and potentially violence, there? Will she confirm what she says about protecting trans rights?*



They are asking for protection of transgender people. Something that wasn't included in the Supreme Court judgment.

[Bostonhibby]

... whatever it takes to get them into Government? :rolleyes:Mr Ed returning to government again in an alliance with Badenoch this time?[emoji16]

Principles? What principles? Is their motto.

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[CropleyWasGod]

I think they are clear in what they are asking for.

However, given what she said, I am sure that she will agree with me that that should not come at the cost of the human rights and the security of another vulnerable group in society, which is what this ruling threatens to bring about. Could she explain where transgender people fleeing violence can now go for refuge, if they are to be completely excluded from refuges?

"For years, we have had this intolerable debate, in which two vulnerable groups have been pitted against each other. Those two groups are afraid of the same thing—violence, mostly from men.*

"The challenge for this Labour Government is to live up to the spirit of perhaps one of the proudest achievements of a previous Labour Government—the Equality Act—and protect everyone. If this Government are not able to do that, does the Minister think it would be acceptable to see trans women forced into men’s toilets, to face goodness knows what sort of aggression, and potentially violence, there? Will she confirm what she says about protecting trans rights?*



They are asking for protection of transgender people. Something that wasn't included in the Supreme Court judgment.

What she is missing is that the EA provides for exclusion "where it is proportionate". In other words, it's not set in stone that trans women (pre or post-surgery) will be excluded. It will be up to those who use that space to make the judgement.

It's not ideal, of course, but neither is it as bleak as what is being suggested.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd prefer making a gender neutral toilet the norm, have trans female sections of male hostels, prisons and support groups in each UK country where needed

Hopefully it's the end of trans females being in female sports, prisons and hostels it's been utterly bizarre. I genuinely can't believe we've had a period where a professional biological male UFC fighters have fought women and male pre-op trans female rapists were going to put in female prisons, to protect them as a vulnerable group of biological males

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd prefer making a gender neutral toilet the norm, have trans female sections of male hostels, prisons and support groups in each UK country where needed

Hopefully it's the end of trans females being in female sports, prisons and hostels it's been utterly bizarre. I genuinely can't believe we've had a period where a professional biological male UFC fighters have fought women and male pre-op trans female rapists were going to put in female prisons, to protect them as a vulnerable group of biological males

The problem with gender neutral toilets is that there has been a judgement this week against borders Council because that's what they provided in a new primary school!

[Stairway 2 7]

The problem with gender neutral toilets is that there has been a judgement this week against borders Council because that's what they provided in a new primary school!

No they only had gender neutral toilets, females should have their own space away from biological males. There is no problem with having 3 toilets male, female, neutral

[Moulin Yarns]

No they only had gender neutral toilets, females should have their own space away from biological males. There is no problem with having 3 toilets male, female, neutral

It's a primary school for goodness sake!!!

Here's how daft the Supreme Court ruling is....

A mother can no longer take her toddler son into the female toilets and a father can't take his toddler daughters into the male toilets!

[Stairway 2 7]

It's a primary school for goodness sake!!!

Here's how daft the Supreme Court ruling is....

A mother can no longer take her toddler son into the female toilets and a father can't take his toddler daughters into the male toilets!

There been a lot of trouble with boys kissing girls by force in my daughters primary. With easy access to **** like Andrew Tate nowadays I'd not be happy if she didn't have a space away from boys up to 12.

It hasn't stopped dads bringing there wee girls into the toilet that would come under where appropriate

[speedy_gonzales]

I'd prefer making a gender neutral toilet the norm, have trans female sections of male hostels, prisons and support groups in each UK country where needed

Hopefully it's the end of trans females being in female sports, prisons and hostels it's been utterly bizarre. I genuinely can't believe we've had a period where a professional biological male UFC fighters have fought women and male pre-op trans female rapists were going to put in female prisons, to protect them as a vulnerable group of biological males

Would you suggest the same provision for trans-males (pre or post Op)?

I'm genuinely not being facetious but if this latest ruling by the supreme court has the aim to protect biological women, then this genuinely needs to be considered.

[Stairway 2 7]

Would you suggest the same provision for trans-males (pre or post Op)?

I'm genuinely not being facetious but if this latest ruling by the supreme court has the aim to protect biological women, then this genuinely needs to be considered.

No as I've said in the thread previously, when 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males we have a collective guilt to be kept away from biological females safe spaces. There is no increased threat to biological males from biological females being in their spaces. It's also why there isn't a debate around trans males joining in male sports, due to no physical advantage.

[Keith_M]

Everybody seems to imagine that Trans Culture is a relatively modern thing but I just found this photo of two soldiers in WWII...



28734

[speedy_gonzales]

No as I've said in the thread previously, when 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males we have a collective guilt to be kept away from biological females safe spaces. There is no increased threat to biological males from biological females being in their spaces. It's also why there isn't a debate around trans males joining in male sports, due to no physical advantage.

So your comfortable with trans-males using male hostels and being sent to male prisons?

Like I said, this judgment was to protect biological females, an unintended "reciprocal" consequence is trans-males being allowed/having to use womens single sex spaces.
I've already seen a backlash on social media, and I'm fairly sure it was staged but a large framed person with facial hair walks in to a female public convenience and although filmed from the outside you could clearly see the bewildered reaction from those coming out.

[Ozyhibby]

No as I've said in the thread previously, when 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males we have a collective guilt to be kept away from biological females safe spaces. There is no increased threat to biological males from biological females being in their spaces. It's also why there isn't a debate around trans males joining in male sports, due to no physical advantage.

Collective guilt is a tricky road to be going down?[emoji51]


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[Stairway 2 7]

So your comfortable with trans-males using male hostels and being sent to male prisons?

Like I said, this judgment was to protect biological females, an unintended "reciprocal" consequence is trans-males being allowed/having to use womens single sex spaces.
I've already seen a backlash on social media, and I'm fairly sure it was staged but a large framed person with facial hair walks in to a female public convenience and although filmed from the outside you could clearly see the bewildered reaction from those coming out.

Eh trans males would obviously be sent to female prisons and vice versa as that is the law and obviously the correct thing. This is obviously to protect females hard gotten rights and freedoms. Toilets is used to belittle the real issues like intimate care, hostels and prisons. They should definitely be separated by biological sex, but if the need is there separate sections within that could come

Trans women could use whatever toilet they wanted and no one will know or care, it's a manufactured problem.

[Hibrandenburg]

Everybody seems to imagine that Trans Culture is a relatively modern thing but I just found this photo of two soldiers in WWII...



28734

I think you'll find that's the RAF Nō2 dress uniform.

[Stairway 2 7]

Collective guilt is a tricky road to be going down?[emoji51]


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I don't think it is when it comes to sex. It's pretty simple sexual assault is a male problem so that means you and me who wouldn't hurt anyone, shouldn't be in a female hostel. I don't know why any male would be offended by that. As I said before the Gisele Pelicot case shows there is males in every layer of society that would take advantage of a vulnerable female

[speedy_gonzales]

Eh trans males would obviously be sent to female prisons and vice versa as that is the law and obviously the correct thing.

That would have been my understanding but when you wrote

I'd prefer making a gender neutral toilet the norm, have trans female sections of male hostels, prisons and support groups in each UK country where needed
I asked

Would you suggest the same provision for trans-males (pre or post Op)?
You replied

Eh trans males would obviously be sent to female prisons and vice versa as that is the law and obviously the correct thing.

I'm asking, do we segregate trans in general or is it just trans-women (as this whole debate seems to be solely focused on). I'm also wondering where my trans-male friends would go (if imprisoned for whatever reason). HMP Ratho House, general population? Considering they present very much like a hirsute male and are attracted to the female form I think this too could cause issues.


Toilets is used to belittle the real issues like intimate care, hostels and prisons
I couldn't agree more, this is way beyond whether we stand or squat to take a leak (or actually, maybe this is exactly what it's all about 🤔).

[Stairway 2 7]

That would have been my understanding but when you wrote

I asked

You replied


I'm asking, do we segregate trans in general or is it just trans-women (as this whole debate seems to be solely focused on). I'm also wondering where my trans-male friends would go (if imprisoned for whatever reason). HMP Ratho House, general population? Considering they present very much like a hirsute male and are attracted to the female form I think this too could cause issues.


I couldn't agree more, this is way beyond whether we stand or squat to take a leak (or actually, maybe this is exactly what it's all about 🤔).

There would be no problem sending a trans male to a female prison, lesbian relationships are hardly unusual in female prisons, but I would segregate them if they wanted it personally. The female prisoners wouldn't care, but they would if a biological male was there. The issue is biological males getting into female spaces because as I say a proportion of males are horrid. Ask any female you know if they have had a male act inappropriate to them, it will be very little amount that say never

[Keith_M]

I think you'll find that's the RAF Nō2 dress uniform.



Thanks for clarifying


:greengrin

[danhibees1875]

It's a primary school for goodness sake!!!

Here's how daft the Supreme Court ruling is....

A mother can no longer take her toddler son into the female toilets and a father can't take his toddler daughters into the male toilets!

Just for some clarity as a father of toddler daughter - I assume the bottom paragraph is just made up or taken out of context?

[147lothian]

USA fencing are banning men who identify as women from taking part in women's fencing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv-FRfGD2CM

[jamie_1875]

Just for some clarity as a father of toddler daughter - I assume the bottom paragraph is just made up or taken out of context?

Yes it was nonsense, hence deleted. Carry on as you are.

[Keith_M]

USA fencing are banning men who identify as women from taking part in women's fencing.



Seems logical enough.

If men who identify as women aren't discriminated against in everyday life, like when trying to get a job, then to me that's a much more serious... and I'd imagine much more common... issue.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's a primary school for goodness sake!!!

Here's how daft the Supreme Court ruling is....

A mother can no longer take her toddler son into the female toilets and a father can't take his toddler daughters into the male toilets!

I think it's your understanding that's daft :greengrin

As I said above ...."proportionate"

[Stairway 2 7]

It's so nippy that there isn't an easy answer. I'd vote for paggering real anti trans people and anti trans rhetoric, also JKR is a ball bag for deliberately misgendering at every opportunity

[Ozyhibby]

It's so nippy that there isn't an easy answer. I'd vote for paggering real anti trans people and anti trans rhetoric, also JKR is a ball bag for deliberately misgendering at every opportunity

Nothing to disagree with there.[emoji106]


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[Moulin Yarns]

I think it's your understanding that's daft :greengrin

As I said above ...."proportionate"

It's the wording of the ruling, no biological males can use female toilets.

It's not just me that thinks there's a problem either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgenpvzxddno


Are the STUC wrong?

[CropleyWasGod]

It's the wording of the ruling, no biological males can use female toilets.

It's not just me that thinks there's a problem either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgenpvzxddno


Are the STUC wrong?

The EA is quite clear.

Proportionality:
The exclusion must be a necessary and reasonable response to the legitimate aim. It cannot be overly broad or unnecessarily restrict access. For example, restricting access to a women's bathroom might be considered proportionate to protect women's privacy, while restricting access to all women-only activities might not be.
Individual Circumstances:
The decision to exclude a trans woman should be made on a case-by-case basis, considering the specific circumstances of the service and the individual's needs.

Refusal where it is proportionate. A woman who has gone through surgery, living as a woman for many years, would not be refused entry to female toilets, because it wouldn't be proportionate. It would be daft. As would a man not being allowed to take his toddler granddaughter into a men's toilet.

As with much relatively new legislation, it will be tweaked as appropriate through test cases and the like.

[jamie_1875]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1meyvpl30eo

Maggie Chapman survives after the SNP support her. And she gets to vote as well which was the deciding vote, makes the Scottish Parliament look a bit daft that she gets a vote and it's the deciding vote.