The Trans Rights Debate

[147lothian]

[QUOTE=superfurryhibby;7131970]That does seem to be the case with this quite often.

Motorcyclist Who Identifies As Bicyclist Sets Cycling World Record


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvesqJP1e4

[sleeping giant]

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jordan-gray-transgender-naked-friday-night-live-b2208312.html

Trans comedian on Channel 4 strips naked and plays the keyboard with her willy.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jordan-gray-transgender-naked-friday-night-live-b2208312.html

Trans comedian on Channel 4 strips naked and plays the keyboard with her *****.

Edit. Is ***** seriously blocked ?

I'm no bothered or shocked if someone gets their welt out on TV, but it's hardly inspiring or groundbreaking like some are saying

[Pretty Boy]

Did Jerry Sadowitz not get cancelled for getting his c*** out earlier in the year? Sure then we were told it was outdated and tiresome because it had been done before as well as being sexually threatening.

Is a ***** only threatening and showing it off unsolicited only offensive when it's a cis man doing it?

[500miles]

Did Jerry Sadowitz not get cancelled for getting his c*** out earlier in the year? Sure then we were told it was outdated and tiresome because it had been done before as well as being sexually threatening.

Is a ***** only threatening and showing it off unsolicited only offensive when it's a cis man doing it?

https://youtu.be/59kf86v_Cpc

It's a great example of culture war/ cancel culture at work. The people angriest about this would often be really quick to defend Sadowitz, the people giving it the old "stunning and brave" patter would are much more comfortable chucking the cishet man under the bus.

One side does it with false family values, and the other with pseudo-progressive zeal.

[147lothian]

Did Jerry Sadowitz not get cancelled for getting his c*** out earlier in the year? Sure then we were told it was outdated and tiresome because it had been done before as well as being sexually threatening.

Is a ***** only threatening and showing it off unsolicited only offensive when it's a cis man doing it?

The way it's being reported sounds quite Orwellian 'her *****'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92iJCNpxFm4

[J-C]

Did Jerry Sadowitz not get cancelled for getting his c*** out earlier in the year? Sure then we were told it was outdated and tiresome because it had been done before as well as being sexually threatening.

Is a ***** only threatening and showing it off unsolicited only offensive when it's a cis man doing it?

He called Sunak a Pa***

[He's here!]

SNP minister resigns over gender recognition plans:

SNP minister resigns over gender recognition plans - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63416857)

Finally, some kick back from within government over this.

[grunt]

First post in this thread. Does anyone have a link to a good explainer about these issues?
I look on and just cannot get my head round the discussion.

[CropleyWasGod]

SNP minister resigns over gender recognition plans:

SNP minister resigns over gender recognition plans - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63416857)

Finally, some kick back from within government over this.

I'm not surprised at Ash Denham's stance. Her record on other feminist-related issues, such as sex worker rights, is very poor IMO. That said, to leave it this late is pretty appalling.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm not surprised at Ash Denham's stance. Her record on other feminist-related issues, such as sex worker rights, is very poor IMO. That said, to leave it this late is pretty appalling.

She's supporting most feminist groups views here, but I agree scot govs previous on sex work was very poor.

[marinello59]

I'm not surprised at Ash Denham's stance. Her record on other feminist-related issues, such as sex worker rights, is very poor IMO. That said, to leave it this late is pretty appalling.

Kate Forbes being away is convenient for her career then. :greengrin

[He's here!]

First post in this thread. Does anyone have a link to a good explainer about these issues?
I look on and just cannot get my head round the discussion.

The trans debate: a fiercely-fought battleground in the nation’s culture wars | The Week UK (https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/society/954778/the-trans-debate-a-fiercely-fought-battleground-in-uk-culture-wars)

Things may well have moved on since this was written but I recall it providing quite a good summary.

[Sergio sledge]

One thing that I find a bit confusing about all of this is the requirement (in both old and proposed new legislation) for someone to have lived in their acquired gender for a certain period of time. What does that entail? How do you define living in your acquired gender?

[He's here!]

One thing that I find a bit confusing about all of this is the requirement (in both old and proposed new legislation) for someone to have lived in their acquired gender for a certain period of time. What does that entail? How do you define living in your acquired gender?

You'll search in vain for an answer to that question. Just one of numerous reasons this bill doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Once passed it means simply that anyone who says they are a woman IS a woman, full stop.

I sincerely hope Regan isn't the only SNP minister to put her head above the parapet and go against the wishes of 'real feminist' Sturgeon. You can tell by the FM's icy response how much being disagreed with riles her.

[Ozyhibby]

Jaime Greens voting with Scottish Govt. I’ve no problem with people voting against the whip on this issue. Cabinet posts have to be given up though.
It will pass tonight and then the issue will disappear because not that much is actually changing.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221027/e906546adbc7f69367c6fe0977c85dd9.jpg

Sailed through. On those numbers there must have been a lot of opposition support.


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[CropleyWasGod]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221027/e906546adbc7f69367c6fe0977c85dd9.jpg

Sailed through. On those numbers there must have been a lot of opposition support.


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Labour and Lib Dems supported. Tories had a free vote.

[Ozyhibby]

Labour and Lib Dems supported. Tories had a free vote.

Probably sums up why it hasn’t really got much future as a political issue. Even the Tories can’t be bothered opposing.


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[HUTCHYHIBBY]

First post in this thread. Does anyone have a link to a good explainer about these issues?
I look on and just cannot get my head round the discussion.

Pretty much where I am too, I've read the whole thread but, I'm no further forward.

[superfurryhibby]

Pretty much where I am too, I've read the whole thread but, I'm no further forward.

If that’s the case then I doubt any further reading will help develop any deeper insight. There’s enough viewpoints and articles on this thread not sure what more reading could do to help.

On the whole it been a pretty decent discussion.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

If that’s the case then I doubt any further reading will help develop any deeper insight. There’s enough viewpoints and articles on this thread not sure what more reading could do to help.

On the whole it been a pretty decent discussion.

Aye, I could probably delve deeper if I was that bothered, turns out that I don't think I am.

[cabbageandribs1875]

saw this on fb is this what it's all about, if so what's the problem ? :confused:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/313337631_10158869046791891_5665415841482681953_n. jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=QqYbzDDhV3YAX8TmNxG&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCcN_vtbjDATKOtBE5XjDGpv7IJ9jWCiim39SAEV6FN 2A&oe=635F36C2

[Stairway 2 7]

saw this on fb is this what it's all about, if so what's the problem ? :confused:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/313337631_10158869046791891_5665415841482681953_n. jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=QqYbzDDhV3YAX8TmNxG&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCcN_vtbjDATKOtBE5XjDGpv7IJ9jWCiim39SAEV6FN 2A&oe=635F36C2

Probably best no to get info from Facebook, there's obviously much more changes than that. I'm not saying for better or worse, but it's easy to Google or read through thread

[cabbageandribs1875]

Probably best no to get info from Facebook, there's obviously much more changes than that. I'm not saying for better or worse, but it's easy to Google or read through thread


possibly, like hutchyhibby this is only my 2nd look at this whole thread, i think i've read ermm three posts overall near the start, it's not really bothering me that much we're all jock tamsons bairns and all that, the only objection i do have even remotely to do with this whole trans thing is the unfair advantages in sport, especially the swimming, so is that table wrong then, or just not full ? i appreciate it probably doesn't cover everything.

apols, you answered my question on that table not being the full shebang etc but i did ask if that's all it's about, now i know it's obviously not

[Stairway 2 7]

possibly, like hutchyhibby this is only my 2nd look at this whole thread, i think i've read ermm three posts overall near the start, it's not really bothering me that much we're all jock tamsons bairns and all that, the only objection i do have even remotely to do with this whole trans thing is the unfair advantages in sport, especially the swimming, so is that table wrong then, or just not full ? i appreciate it probably doesn't cover everything

The majority of people polled usually only have a few objections sport, changing rooms, rape crisis and length of time before changing.

People are probably stuck with there opinions. In Ireland where it has changed they are still arguing this week about sport so I'm sure it will roll on, especially the next time a female is battered by a trans female in the ring or cage

[He's here!]

possibly, like hutchyhibby this is only my 2nd look at this whole thread, i think i've read ermm three posts overall near the start, it's not really bothering me that much we're all jock tamsons bairns and all that, the only objection i do have even remotely to do with this whole trans thing is the unfair advantages in sport, especially the swimming, so is that table wrong then, or just not full ? i appreciate it probably doesn't cover everything.

apols, you answered my question on that table not being the full shebang etc but i did ask if that's all it's about, now i know it's obviously not

That aspect of things (ie whether anyone is trans or not) has got next to nothing to do with why there's so much controversy around this bill. It's long fought-for women's rights (and their potential erosion) which is the issue.

[He's here!]

Labour and Lib Dems supported. Tories had a free vote.

For once the Tories are the ones showing common sense here.

I see Sarwar is saying Labour will be seeking amendments at the next stage.

The most telling stat is that nine SNP MSPs defied the whip. By SNP standards that's a major rebellion...in fact probably unprecedented.

[Stairway 2 7]

For once the Tories are the ones showing common sense here.

I see Sarwar is saying Labour will be seeking amendments at the next stage.

The most telling stat is that nine SNP MSPs defied the whip. By SNP standards that's a major rebellion...in fact probably unprecedented.

Surprised they forced the whip on this

[LewysGot2]

I'm not surprised at Ash Denham's stance. Her record on other feminist-related issues, such as sex worker rights, is very poor IMO. That said, to leave it this late is pretty appalling.

What did she say about sex worker rights?

[He's here!]

Surprised they forced the whip on this

SNP suffers biggest ever backbench revolt over transgender bill | Transgender | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/oct/27/snp-suffers-biggest-ever-backbench-revolt-over-transgender-bill)

[marinello59]

Surprised they forced the whip on this

Really?

[CropleyWasGod]

What did she say about sex worker rights?

She is trying to introduce the Nordic Model, which has been rejected 5 (perhaps more) times in Scotland, and which sex workers throughout the world are against.

[ronaldo7]

This is such a niche issue I doubt it moves more than a handful of votes either way in any election.
And like any issue in Scotland, the only reason it’s getting amplified is because the two Indy parties are promoting it so the unionists have decided to oppose it. And you can see that even on this thread. It’s quite sad really as it is a complex issue for a tiny amount of people and they don’t really need it being weaponised in the Indy debate.
It’s like Celtic and Sevco fans waiting to see which side of any conflict the other set of fans are about to take so that they can oppose them.


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I decided to go to the start of this thread to read up on the subject close to the hearts of, well, not many folk.

Turns out the opposition parties have come onboard, and even the Tories are not opposing it anymore.

[He's here!]

Surprised they forced the whip on this

That surprised me too. This issue goes beyond party politics and a free vote would have seemed the more sensible route.

[archie]

I decided to go to the start of this thread to read up on the subject close to the hearts of, well, not many folk.

Turns out the opposition parties have come onboard, and even the Tories are not opposing it anymore.

It was only stage one where the only option is to support the bill or vote it down. The battleground will be stages two and three where the Bill can be amended.

[heretoday]

Good to know Scottish government minister has a conscience.

[ronaldo7]

It was only stage one where the only option is to support the bill or vote it down. The battleground will be stages two and three where the Bill can be amended.

I expect amendments from Labour, Lib dems, and the Tories, with the latter finally voting against.

[ronaldo7]

That surprised me too. This issue goes beyond party politics and a free vote would have seemed the more sensible route.

It was part of the manifesto. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Stairway 2 7]

It was part of the manifesto. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

They committed to deliberated process and discussion with all groups including feminists, they say this hasn't happened

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/01/14/gender-recognition-reform-what-happened-to-the-manifesto/

[ronaldo7]

They committed to deliberated process and discussion with all groups including feminists, they say this hasn't happened

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/01/14/gender-recognition-reform-what-happened-to-the-manifesto/

I'm sure they had the opportunity to have their say during the long process that's unfolded. 32,000 responses in two consultations. I'm sure all the folk that wanted 121s with Government minsters wouldn't get a seat at the table, but a representative of the group would/should have.

[He's here!]

It was only stage one where the only option is to support the bill or vote it down. The battleground will be stages two and three where the Bill can be amended.

Things will almost certainly get more heated, but despite last night's unprecedented backbench SNP rebellion, the bill will, sadly, still pass.

The hope, however, must be that the higher profile given to an issue that a majority remain unclear about will awaken more folk to just how polarising it is and how 'real feminist' Sturgeon is riding roughshod over women's rights for the sake (as this article argues) of being seen as progressive:

Editor's Column: The Right to Be (holyrood.com) (https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,editors-column-the-right-to-be)

[Ozyhibby]

Things will almost certainly get more heated, but despite last night's unprecedented backbench SNP rebellion, the bill will, sadly, still pass.

The hope, however, must be that the higher profile given to an issue that a majority remain unclear about will awaken more folk to just how polarising it is and how 'real feminist' Sturgeon is riding roughshod over women's rights for the sake (as this article argues) of being seen as progressive:

Editor's Column: The Right to Be (holyrood.com) (https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,editors-column-the-right-to-be)

It will pass because people voted for it. That’s democracy.


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[He's here!]

It will pass because people voted for it. That’s democracy.


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A cowardly vote IMHO, brought about by some hardline lobbyists with a lop-sided amount of influence. Mandy Rhodes (in another excellent article, linked below) puts it better than me:

"One day we may reflect on the wilful stance of politicians and policymakers to engage in any form of reasonable debate for fear of their partiality and ignorance being exposed, and their superficial understanding of the law and science revealed. We may reasonably ask why MPs and MSPs with a mandate to serve all, were persuaded by powerful lobbyists to eschew their responsibility for the many and only speak to and for the few."

It's time we stopped allowing lobby groups to drive the debate on gender (holyrood.com) (https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,its-time-we-stopped-allowing-lobby-groups-to-drive-the-debate-on-gender)

[CropleyWasGod]

A cowardly vote IMHO, brought about by some hardline lobbyists with a lop-sided amount of influence. Mandy Rhodes (in another excellent article, linked below) puts it better than me:

"One day we may reflect on the wilful stance of politicians and policymakers to engage in any form of reasonable debate for fear of their partiality and ignorance being exposed, and their superficial understanding of the law and science revealed. We may reasonably ask why MPs and MSPs with a mandate to serve all, were persuaded by powerful lobbyists to eschew their responsibility for the many and only speak to and for the few."

It's time we stopped allowing lobby groups to drive the debate on gender (holyrood.com) (https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,its-time-we-stopped-allowing-lobby-groups-to-drive-the-debate-on-gender)

Mandy Rhodes has previous for putting the boot in to things she doesn't agree with.

One.of the things I really like about the Scottish Parliament is the fact that it gives access to the legislative process to individuals and marginalised groups in a way that we didn't have previously. I have colleagues I'm England who are jealous of the relative ease with which we can do that. I hope that part of our system never changes.

[archie]

Mandy Rhodes has previous for putting the boot in to things she doesn't agree with.

One.of the things I really like about the Scottish Parliament is the fact that it gives access to the legislative process to individuals and marginalised groups in a way that we didn't have previously. I have colleagues I'm England who are jealous of the relative ease with which we can do that. I hope that part of our system never changes.
I think that's right to a point. But the argument being made by some groups is that access is constrained by whether you are in or out. One of the complaints about the Third Sector in Scotland is co-option by access and funding. But if you are out you are out.

[He's here!]

Mandy Rhodes has previous for putting the boot in to things she doesn't agree with.

One.of the things I really like about the Scottish Parliament is the fact that it gives access to the legislative process to individuals and marginalised groups in a way that we didn't have previously. I have colleagues I'm England who are jealous of the relative ease with which we can do that. I hope that part of our system never changes.

What journalist doesn't?

There's a tendency on here among SNP devotees, to adopt a 'non story, nothing to see here approach' to anything critical of Sturgeon/the Scottish government. Rhodes' piece isn't a throwaway rant for the sake of being contrary, it's a well-written, considered piece which gets to the heart of why this bill (which clearly transcends party politics even for previously well-drilled SNP MSPs) is quite simply bad law and deserves to be called out as such.

[CropleyWasGod]

What journalist doesn't?

There's a tendency on here among SNP devotees, to adopt a 'non story, nothing to see here approach' to anything critical of the Scottish government. Rhodes' piece isn't a throwaway rant for the sake of being contrary, it's a well-written, considered piece which gets to the heart of why this bill (which clearly transcends party politics even for previously well-drilled SNP MSPs) is quite simply bad law and deserves to be called out as such.

I'm not an SNP devotee, nor a voter.

My issue is with the fact that she decries the lobbying (I prefer the term "advocacy") process that she herself has been part of in the past. Presumably, she is in favour of the opponents the bill doing their own lobbying.

[He's here!]

I'm not an SNP devotee, nor a voter.

My issue is with the fact that she decries the lobbying (I prefer the term "advocacy") process that she herself has been part of in the past. Presumably, she is in favour of the opponents the bill doing their own lobbying.

Yes, sorry, that was more of a general observation of a tend to play the man not the ball when it comes to criticism of Sturgeon. There's often little heed paid to what the critic is saying and their views are simply written off.

Here's another spot-on piece which addresses the concerns of many. I know she's Labour to the core, but I worked with her a good many years ago and know something of her background. If anyone is well placed to comment on women's rights it's Susan. The lived experience of so many women is what gives them the right to fear this legislation and I get the sense it's easier for men to brush off such concerns because they're simply unaware of what's at stake. Those with daughters may feel otherwise:

Transgender debate in Scotland: Nicola Sturgeon can't ignore voices of young women deeply concerned by self-ID plans – Susan Dalgety | The Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/transgender-debate-in-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-cant-ignore-voices-of-young-women-deeply-concerned-by-self-id-plans-susan-dalgety-3871466?itm_source=parsely-api)

[He's here!]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/31/children-young-nine-prescribed-puberty-blockers-nicola-sturgeon/

[He's here!]

I'm not surprised at Ash Denham's stance. Her record on other feminist-related issues, such as sex worker rights, is very poor IMO. That said, to leave it this late is pretty appalling.

Nicola Sturgeon knew of gender bill concerns, ex-minister says - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63471665)

[147lothian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmFr71msWYI&t=19s

[Hibs4185]

My wife is a former teacher and she was at a get together with all her uni pals. 4 or 5 of them had been at a CPD course on equality and one of the things they all picked up on was that they should no longer use the term ‘boys or girls’ when addressing the class.

This is primary school teachers btw.

Ridiculous

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/entertainment/daniel-radcliffe-felt-speaking-out-against-jk-rowlings-trans-views-was-really-important

Daniel Radcliffe has his say.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://news.stv.tv/entertainment/daniel-radcliffe-felt-speaking-out-against-jk-rowlings-trans-views-was-really-important

Daniel Radcliffe has his say.

No sure why anyone would care what the opinion of his or jk's was to be honest.

[He's here!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmFr71msWYI&t=19s

Powerful stuff. She speaks well.

[superfurryhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/entertainment/daniel-radcliffe-felt-speaking-out-against-jk-rowlings-trans-views-was-really-important

Daniel Radcliffe has his say.

In the 2020 essay he wrote: “Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I.

“According to The Trevor Project, 78% of transgender and nonbinary youth reported being the subject of discrimination due to their gender identity. It’s clear that we need to do more to support transgender and nonbinary people, not invalidate their identities, and not cause further harm.”

In a recent interview with IndieWire, Radcliffe, 33, explained why he felt compelled to speak up.

He said: “The reason I was felt very, very much as though I needed to say something when I did was because, particularly since finishing ‘Potter,’ I’ve met so many queer and trans kids and young people who had a huge amount of identification with Potter on that. And so seeing them hurt on that day I was like, I wanted them to know that not everybody in the franchise felt that way. And that was really important.”

Radcliffe fails to grasp the conflict inherent what he says. Rowling is speaking as a women, someone with "lived experience". He is not and never can do so. WE all know there is discrimination and stigma associated with trans and non binary and no right thinking person would condone that? However, he doesn't even bother pretending to directly address what Rowling and many others are saying when they condemn blanket approaches to self identification, as proposed under GRA.

Why is he speaking on behalf of "the franchise", surely not to protect the corporate Potter cash cow that made him a star and no doubt very rich?

Radcliffe's utterances smack of cynicism and tokenism.

[He's here!]

https://news.stv.tv/entertainment/daniel-radcliffe-felt-speaking-out-against-jk-rowlings-trans-views-was-really-important

Daniel Radcliffe has his say.

He's already had plenty to say on this and all of it completely off the mark when it comes to Rowling being anti-trans.

The kids in the Potter films owe Rowling their acting careers and were likely set up for life by the films. I don't have an issue with their wealth because the movies are excellent and they more than earned that money, but when it comes to Rowling they could at least show her some respect by getting their facts right before putting the boot in.

[He's here!]

In the 2020 essay he wrote: “Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I.

“According to The Trevor Project, 78% of transgender and nonbinary youth reported being the subject of discrimination due to their gender identity. It’s clear that we need to do more to support transgender and nonbinary people, not invalidate their identities, and not cause further harm.”

In a recent interview with IndieWire, Radcliffe, 33, explained why he felt compelled to speak up.

He said: “The reason I was felt very, very much as though I needed to say something when I did was because, particularly since finishing ‘Potter,’ I’ve met so many queer and trans kids and young people who had a huge amount of identification with Potter on that. And so seeing them hurt on that day I was like, I wanted them to know that not everybody in the franchise felt that way. And that was really important.”

Radcliffe fails to grasp the conflict inherent what he says. Rowling is speaking as a women, someone with "lived experience". He is not and never can do so. WE all know there is discrimination and stigma associated with trans and non binary and no right thinking person would condone that? However, he doesn't even bother pretending to directly address what Rowling and many others are saying when they condemn blanket approaches to self identification, as proposed under GRA.

Why is he speaking on behalf of "the franchise", surely not to protect the corporate Potter cash cow that made him a star and no doubt very rich?

Radcliffe's utterances smack of cynicism and tokenism.

Good post. Reminds me of the misguided guff Tom Daley came out with about this issue a few months back.

[Stairway 2 7]

Maybe I'm off but I'm surprised it's as low as 78% of trans youth have experienced discrimination. I thought it'd be higher, hopefully things are changing.

I'd bet its in the 90s % of say gingers that have experienced discrimination, definitely most people of colour

[He's here!]

...and on the subject of Rowling:

'This is what a principled politician looks like'. J K Rowling backs SNP rebel Regan with fresh swipe at Sturgeon

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/01/jk-rowling-backs-snp-rebel-nicola-sturgeons-trans-law-tug-of/

[147lothian]

JK Rowling has long stood up for woman's rights. Objecting to woman being called people who menstruate is not transphobic. This shows the deep misogyny of trans activists that think they can change language to fit their agenda and anyone who doesn't go along with it can be monstered as a transphobe, TERF or fascist.

The reason trans activists want to call women, people who menstruate is because they think a woman is an identity category they don't believe in the reality of biological sex. They think any man who puts on a dress is a literal woman. This is why they hate women who stand up for their sex-based rights.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev3iZR3cCkM]

[Stairway 2 7]

https://archive.ph/bhVB7

First court case someone is charged as a male and female

[Ozyhibby]

JK Rowling has long stood up for woman's rights. Objecting to woman being called people who menstruate is not transphobic. This shows the deep misogyny of trans activists that think they can change language to fit their agenda and anyone who doesn't go along with it can be monstered as a transphobe, turf or fascist.

The reason trans activists want to call women people who menstruate is because they think a woman is an identity category they don't believe in the reality of biological sex. They think any man who puts on a dress is a literal woman. This is why they hate women who stand up for their sex-based rights.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlrB3nyUUB

What has all that got to do with the GRA?


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[superfurryhibby]

What has all that got to do with the GRA?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The video link didn't work for me.

I assume that's what you're referring to?

It's worth keeping in mind that this thread is about Trans Rights and there's more to the subject than the GRA bill.

[Moulin Yarns]

Rowling claimed she felt the need to speak about the issue of transgender rights because of her own experiences of domestic abuse.

Domestic abuse has nothing to do with trans rights. It's bad but it is totally different to the abuse of transgender people.

[James310]

Rowling claimed she felt the need to speak about the issue of transgender rights because of her own experiences of domestic abuse.

Domestic abuse has nothing to do with trans rights. It's bad but it is totally different to the abuse of transgender people.

You are missing the bigger picture. It's about having woman only safe places.

Lots of men on this thread telling woman how they should feel or not feel.

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/i-stand-jk-rowling-trans-women-space-single-sex-spaces-terf-b989709.html

[superfurryhibby]

Rowling claimed she felt the need to speak about the issue of transgender rights because of her own experiences of domestic abuse.

Domestic abuse has nothing to do with trans rights. It's bad but it is totally different to the abuse of transgender people.

Aye , ok................the lengths some people go to :rolleyes:

From JK herself

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

"Well, I’ve got five reasons for being worried about the new trans activism, and deciding I need to speak up.

Firstly, I have a charitable trust that focuses on alleviating social deprivation in Scotland, with a particular emphasis on women and children. Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.

The second reason is that I’m an ex-teacher and the founder of a children’s charity, which gives me an interest in both education and safeguarding. Like many others, I have deep concerns about the effect the trans rights movement is having on both.

The third is that, as a much-banned author, I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families"

She appears to omit reason five, but says this, which I find quite compelling.

"We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else".

It's clear that Rowling has engaged in some deep thinking about her position and makes an eloquent case, unlike many of the critics, like Radcliffe and Emily Watson, from the "franchise".

[Stairway 2 7]

Rowling claimed she felt the need to speak about the issue of transgender rights because of her own experiences of domestic abuse.

Domestic abuse has nothing to do with trans rights. It's bad but it is totally different to the abuse of transgender people.
But if she is scared now of biological males in traditionally female only places then her opinion is valid to the debate.

Defenders say this isn't effected by gra, others say it does. Gra allows people to change their birth certificate and not allow people to know if it was ever changed. There will be no way to know if someone was born a male, if they say they are literally a female then they are.


I don't think sex assaults will increase in anyway but I'm not a woman so it won't affect me

[He's here!]

Rowling claimed she felt the need to speak about the issue of transgender rights because of her own experiences of domestic abuse.

Domestic abuse has nothing to do with trans rights. It's bad but it is totally different to the abuse of transgender people.

Worth looking beyond a single throwaway paragraph in that STV report. There's a wider issue here. As others have already pointed out, Rowling's fervent opposition to Sturgeon's bill is rooted in its impact on women's rights. At no time has she expressed any sort of anti-trans views.

Personally I think it's great that as high profile a figure as Rowling has no qualms about putting herself in the firing line here and expressing the concerns of many so eloquenty.

[147lothian]

Rowling claimed she felt the need to speak about the issue of transgender rights because of her own experiences of domestic abuse.

Domestic abuse has nothing to do with trans rights. It's bad but it is totally different to the abuse of transgender people.

Well, I guess domestic abuse has got something to do with trans rights when women don't want to go to the Edinburgh rape crisis center because the head of the organization is a man who identifies as a woman who say's things like "even bigots get raped". Or when two women become impregnated in an all-female prison in New Jersey by a fellow prisoner.

[500miles]

Rowling claimed she felt the need to speak about the issue of transgender rights because of her own experiences of domestic abuse.

Domestic abuse has nothing to do with trans rights. It's bad but it is totally different to the abuse of transgender people.

Quick question. Say I - a heterosexual cis man - seeks access at a women's refuge. The reason could be genuine, it might not be, who knows. I would expect to be refused shelter for the comfort and wellbeing of the women there because as a male bodied person, I represent a particular threat to them, a threat which that shelter primarily exists to protect women from.

Say an identical person - my doppelganger even - seeks the same access and the only difference is that they claim a trans identity. No definable or measurable difference, apart from the belief that they have been born in the wrong body, or adhere to an idea of gender separate from sex. Why should the shelter perceive them as any less of a threat? Why would the women in the shelter feel any less uncomfortable?

[CropleyWasGod]

Well, I guess domestic abuse has got something to do with trans rights when women don't want to go to the Edinburgh rape crisis center because the head of the organization is a man who identifies as a woman who say's things like "even bigots get raped". Or when two women become impregnated in an all-female prison in New Jersey by a fellow prisoner.

In the UK, the prison issue is decided on a case-by-case basis.

Presumably, the US cases were consensual relationships? If so, I'm not sure relationships of any type inside a prison can be completely avoided.

[CropleyWasGod]

Quick question. Say I - a heterosexual cis man - seeks access at a women's refuge. The reason could be genuine, it might not be, who knows. I would expect to be refused shelter for the comfort and wellbeing of the women there because as a male bodied person, I represent a particular threat to them, a threat which that shelter primarily exists to protect women from.

Say an identical person - my doppelganger even - seeks the same access and the only difference is that they claim a trans identity. No definable or measurable difference, apart from the belief that they have been born in the wrong body, or adhere to an idea of gender separate from sex. Why should the shelter perceive them as any less of a threat? Why would the women in the shelter feel any less uncomfortable?

In your second example, that's already dealt with by the Equality Act. The default is that a trans woman, at any stage of her transition, has access to that space. However, if the current occupants have concerns about the individual, they can refuse her entry.

None of that will change with the current proposals.

[superfurryhibby]

Worth looking beyond a single throwaway paragraph in that STV report. There's a wider issue here. As others have already pointed out, Rowling's fervent opposition to Sturgeon's bill is rooted in its impact on women's rights. At no time has she expressed any sort of anti-trans views.

Personally I think it's great that as high profile a figure as Rowling has no qualms about putting herself in the firing line here and expressing the concerns of many so eloquenty.

I'm no fan of her books or aspects of her politics, but Rowling has been very brave in taking a stance. I totally commend her and her right to speak out on issues which are close to her heart.

Nothing she has said can be construed as anti-trans and I would feel pretty confident that she, like most right-minded people, would have no issues with people's who have undergone gender reassignment to it's logical conclusion. Her concerns are based on fundamental erosion of women's rights.

Aside from the vacuous white noise from people like Radcliffe, what I find more worrying is the media clamour to close down people's right to speak out. I understand when we, as a society, want to suppress those who wish to inflame hatred, racial, sexual, or whatever. However, nothing she has said sits in those categories. I don't like the erosion of fundamental democratic rights and wonder where it might end?

Who decides the agenda here? Mainstream media is controlled by some very dubious organisations and have huge power to influence the public, I see it as a distract, divide and conquer issue. Meanwhile our corrupt government carries on screwing us plebs for everything we have. I wish people would waken up and take the blinkers off.

[superfurryhibby]

In your second example, that's already dealt with by the Equality Act. The default is that a trans woman, at any stage of her transition, has access to that space. However, if the current occupants have concerns about the individual,they can refuse entry.

None of that will change with the current proposals.

Why is that the default position under the Equalities act? It will surely become the case if GRA is passed in it's current form.

Workers and women who use the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre have very clearly opposed the appointment of their most senior manager. I know for a fact that they have lost staff because of the issue and anecdotally, their key stakeholders (women who have been raped or sexually assaulted) totally oppose Mridul Wadha's appointment. One day I hope the full story behind this will come out, it's a total stich up.

[Keith_M]

I've been having a think about this from the point of view of major western religions and have come to this conclusion.


If people believe that God, Jesus and some guy called The Holy Ghost are individuals and at the same time are also the same person...

...then surely they can believe that somebody can be a Man as well as a Woman?


:dunno:

[CropleyWasGod]

Why is that the default position under the Equalities act? It will surely become the case if GRA is passed in it's current form.

Workers and women who use the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre have very clearly opposed the appointment of their most senior manager. I know for a fact that they have lost staff because of the issue and anecdotally, their key stakeholders (women who have been raped or sexually assaulted) totally oppose Mridul Wadha's appointment. One day I hope the full story behind this will come out, it's a total stich up.

I'm not sure I understand the question. That has been the position since 2010 (?) when the Act was passed.

There are many exceptions to that basic rule, as there always are.

More here on how organisations can deal with access for trans people:-

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-provisions-equality-act

The GRA won't change those basic rules and exceptions. What it may do is increase the number of times that an organisation will have to review and apply its own protocols.

I don't know as much as you about the ERCC case. But, in answering the question as to why the Project Manager is still in post, the key may be in that piece above where it says "Under these provisions, your approach must be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim...You must then show that your action is a proportionate way to achieve that aim. This requires that you balance the impact upon all service users." One would assume that the Board of ERCC have considered those provisions; if they haven't, that's where any challenge to her appointment would come from.

[Rumble de Thump]

I'm no fan of her books or aspects of her politics, but Rowling has been very brave in taking a stance. I totally commend her and her right to speak out on issues which are close to her heart.

Nothing she has said can be construed as anti-trans and I would feel pretty confident that she, like most right-minded people, would have no issues with people's who have undergone gender reassignment to it's logical conclusion. Her concerns are based on fundamental erosion of women's rights.

Aside from the vacuous white noise from people like Radcliffe, what I find more worrying is the media clamour to close down people's right to speak out. I understand when we, as a society, want to suppress those who wish to inflame hatred, racial, sexual, or whatever. However, nothing she has said sits in those categories. I don't like the erosion of fundamental democratic rights and wonder where it might end?

Who decides the agenda here? Mainstream media is controlled by some very dubious organisations and have huge power to influence the public, I see it as a distract, divide and conquer issue. Meanwhile our corrupt government carries on screwing us plebs for everything we have. I wish people would waken up and take the blinkers off.

A lot of what she says is construed as anti-trans. If this wasn't the case, trans people and their allies wouldn't consider her to be extremely problematic.

[Stairway 2 7]

A lot of what she says is construed as anti-trans. If this wasn't the case, trans people and their allies wouldn't consider her to be extremely problematic.

I can't see how saying nothing negative about trans people, just saying there is a difference in biology can be seen as anti trans. Some trans don't like her as their position is trans women are 100% women and to say different is anti trans.

[500miles]

In your second example, that's already dealt with by the Equality Act. The default is that a trans woman, at any stage of her transition, has access to that space. However, if the current occupants have concerns about the individual, they can refuse her entry.

None of that will change with the current proposals.

I agree that the current GRA reforms aren't the game changers some people seem to think they are, but in the example above it seems like a really weird line to draw. It solely relies on an individuals personal belief which is neither definable or measurable, and I'm not comfortable with that. It's got a very "prayer in school" feel - ie. the insitutional enforcement of spiritual belief.

[superfurryhibby]

A lot of what she says is construed as anti-trans. If this wasn't the case, trans people and their allies wouldn't consider her to be extremely problematic.


A bit like anti Zionists being accused of being anti-Semitic by militant Zionists then.

[Stairway 2 7]

If you identify as disabled are you 😲

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrewdoyle_com/status/1588104732756922368

[CropleyWasGod]

If you identify as disabled are you ��

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrewdoyle_com/status/1588104732756922368

In case anyone gets het up about the conversation on the right there, it's a satirical account, written by Andrew Doyle.:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

In case anyone gets het up about the conversation on the right there, it's a satirical account, written by Andrew Doyle.:greengrin

Yeah it's one of the most popular accounts on twitter, the point is his mad jokes on woke are somehow coming true.

[He's here!]

Long-serving Guardian journalist Hadley Freeman in parting shot at paper over trans debate:

https://pressgazette.co.uk/hadley-freeman-leaves-guardian-sunday-times/

[147lothian]

In the UK, the prison issue is decided on a case-by-case basis.

Presumably, the US cases were consensual relationships? If so, I'm not sure relationships of any type inside a prison can be completely avoided.

One thing is for sure no woman can get pregnant from a fellow prisoner in a woman only prison if the inmates are woman only. Maybe this would be the best way to protect vulnerable women.

[CropleyWasGod]

One thing is for sure no woman can get pregnant from a fellow prisoner in a woman only prison if the inmates are woman only. Maybe this would be the best way to protect vulnerable women.

Not sure what you mean by "protect". The relationships were consensual, weren't they?

[archie]

Not sure what you mean by "protect". The relationships were consensual, weren't they?
Given the stressful nature prison and the high number of vulnerable women in prison, I think it's difficult to use 'consensual' in the way you would apply outside prison. Here's a case from the Guardian, probably the most supportive on trans issues https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[500miles]

Not sure what you mean by "protect". The relationships were consensual, weren't they?

I'm not convinced you'd accept that so readily if it were a cis man who got a prisoner pregnant.

[CropleyWasGod]

Given the stressful nature prison and the high number of vulnerable women in prison, I think it's difficult to use 'consensual' in the way you would apply outside prison. Here's a case from the Guardian, probably the most supportive on trans issues https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

That prisoner should clearly have never been in that prison. The purported "case-by-case" system obviously isn't working as it should.

Horrific as that case is, I'm not convinced that all transgender women should be in male prisons. Equally, should all transgender men be in women's prisons?

[archie]

That prisoner should clearly have never been in that prison. The purported "case-by-case" system obviously isn't working as it should.

Horrific as that case is, I'm not convinced that all transgender women should be in male prisons. Equally, should all transgender men be in women's prisons?
It's a dilemma. Both groups have their needs, but there may be conflict between those needs. It's a tricky one, exacerbated (in my view) by the GRA.

[147lothian]

Yeah it's one of the most popular accounts on twitter, the point is his mad jokes on woke are somehow coming true.

It is amazing how these insane jokes have come true. Andrew Doyle is completely correct to say that people who subscribe to an ideology wholesale give up the capacity to think for themselves.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_qMWTYhVqk

[CropleyWasGod]

Yeah it's one of the most popular accounts on twitter, the point is his mad jokes on woke are somehow coming true.

The stage show is hilarious.

Someone very close to me plays the character, on stage and telly.... hence my unbiased opinion:greengrin

[147lothian]

The stage show is hilarious.

Someone very close to me plays the character, on stage and telly.... hence my unbiased opinion:greengrin

Is this the person here?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5N8ibiR9o0

[CropleyWasGod]

Is this the person here?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5N8ibiR9o0

Yeah. 😀

[Keith_M]

Just wondering how far we want to take this.


"Able-bodied Norwegian man self identifies as disabled woman."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23101806.issue-day-able-bodied-norwegian-identifies-disabled-woman/

[LewysGot2]

Just wondering how far we want to take this.


"Able-bodied Norwegian man self identifies as disabled woman."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23101806.issue-day-able-bodied-norwegian-identifies-disabled-woman/


Identifying as disabled…that concept was used by the SNP to create regional lists of prospective candidates for election iirc

[He's here!]

Just wondering how far we want to take this.


"Able-bodied Norwegian man self identifies as disabled woman."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23101806.issue-day-able-bodied-norwegian-identifies-disabled-woman/


That person has issues to put it mildly.

[Moulin Yarns]

Just wondering how far we want to take this.


"Able-bodied Norwegian man self identifies as disabled woman."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23101806.issue-day-able-bodied-norwegian-identifies-disabled-woman/

Alme said it had been a life-long wish to have been born a woman paralysed from the waist down.



I think he needs psychiatric help.

[147lothian]

Trans ideology is starting to unravel now that the people who detransition are starting to speak out. It is deplorable that people with mental health issues are being targeted by the zealots and big medicine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phjkZSSu_dY&t=3s

[Moulin Yarns]

Trans ideology is starting to unravel now that the people who detransition are starting to speak out. It is deplorable that people with mental health issues are being targeted by the zealots and big medicine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phjkZSSu_dY&t=3s

Never heard of detransitioning before.

Not surprising based on the minute numbers.

https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/


Detransition is a loaded term.

Importantly, it doesn’t mean an unsatisfactory or regrettable result. Rather, it simply refers to the small group of people who transition and then go back.

[147lothian]

Try telling the growing number who detransition that to detransition doesn't mean unsatisfactory or regrettable result


https://www.detransvoices.org

[He's here!]

Sturgeon set to water down gender reform bill?

Nicola Sturgeon could water down gender reforms for teens after SNP rebellion (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/nicola-sturgeon-could-water-down-gender-reforms-for-teens-after-snp-rebellion/ar-AA13Nzkk)

[marinello59]

Sturgeon set to water down gender reform bill?

Nicola Sturgeon could water down gender reforms for teens after SNP rebellion (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/nicola-sturgeon-could-water-down-gender-reforms-for-teens-after-snp-rebellion/ar-AA13Nzkk)

The Greens won’t be pleased…. But they’ll suck it up as usual, those ministerial salaries are so seductive. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Try telling the growing number who detransition that to detransition doesn't mean unsatisfactory or regrettable result

Have to say, my link is just a bit more balanced than what you have linked to.

[James310]

Have to say, my link is just a bit more balanced than what you have linked to.

Not sure about that when the site you linked to is a commercial business "selling" services for up to £150.

This the "balance" you are going on about?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10854047/Doctor-struck-prescribing-sex-change-drugs-private-online-GenderGp-clinic.html

"A consultant physician has been stuck off for wrongly prescribing sex-change treatments to seven transgender patients - one who was aged just nine and another a teenager who took their own life few months later."

[He's here!]

Irrespective of his political allegiance, Neale Hanvey sets out his concerns rationally here:

https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/gender-recognition-reform-bill-deep-flaws-at-heart-of-legislation-neale-hanvey-3902122

[superfurryhibby]

Irrespective of his political allegiance, Neale Hanvey sets out his concerns rationally here:

https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/gender-recognition-reform-bill-deep-flaws-at-heart-of-legislation-neale-hanvey-3902122

“Here in Kirkcaldy, trans identifying Katie Dolatowski was convicted of assaulting a 10-year-old child in a local supermarket toilet. As a direct consequence the media framed this sexual predator as trans”

There lies one of the dangers. A whole community will be stigmatised by the actions of a few deviants who will exploit circumstances for their own nefarious ends.

[He's here!]

“Here in Kirkcaldy, trans identifying Katie Dolatowski was convicted of assaulting a 10-year-old child in a local supermarket toilet. As a direct consequence the media framed this sexual predator as trans”

There lies one of the dangers. A whole community will be stigmatised by the actions of a few deviants who will exploit circumstances for their own nefarious ends.

A key reason this legislation is flawed.

[LongJohnBanger]

Just wondering how far we want to take this.


"Able-bodied Norwegian man self identifies as disabled woman."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23101806.issue-day-able-bodied-norwegian-identifies-disabled-woman/

Ethically and morally speaking, if someone identifies as being paralysed from the waist down, should you indulge their fantasy by paralysing them?

[LewysGot2]

“Here in Kirkcaldy, trans identifying Katie Dolatowski was convicted of assaulting a 10-year-old child in a local supermarket toilet. As a direct consequence the media framed this sexual predator as trans”

There lies one of the dangers. A whole community will be stigmatised by the actions of a few deviants who will exploit circumstances for their own nefarious ends.

Same person was in the news this week as they apparently moved to England, under yet another new identity but still trans identifying and was able to be admitted to a refuge in Leeds for traumatised women and their children where they stayed for nearly 3 months.

[He's here!]

Scottish government back in court over definition of 'woman' - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63568047)

[superfurryhibby]

Scottish government back in court over definition of 'woman' - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63568047)

"The group's lawyer Aidan O'Neill KC argued that obtaining a gender recognition certificate should not "result in a change of sex for the purposes of the Equality Act".

He said if it did, it would "run a coach and horses through the preservation of safe spaces for women and single-sex provision for women under the Equality Act".

The proceedings are taking place at the same time as MSPs are considering separate legislation which would make it easier for trans people to obtain a gender recognition certificate".

I think that "safe space" issue has already been spectacularly breached with the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre situation and their CEO.

I suppose the group raising the court action won't mention this, but surely the BBC already know that this has already happened in plain sight and been reported in the media. Why can't they refer to it as the continuing erosion of protected services and safe spaces. It's already happening.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rape-crisis-chief-mridul-wadhwa-steps-back-from-bigot-comments-2b9kdvc75

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63572905

Over 150 amendments proposed to gender bill.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63572905

Over 150 amendments proposed to gender bill.

Some amendments will probably be made, just not the tory ones which basically seem to be that they don't want any changes to the current situation.

[Stairway 2 7]

America is some place right enough

https://mobile.twitter.com/yaf/status/1590801818044403713

[hibby rae]

America is some place right enough

https://mobile.twitter.com/yaf/status/1590801818044403713

That seems quite heartwarming, and nice to see the positive reactions from her fellow contestants.

[superfurryhibby]

That seems quite heartwarming, and nice to see the positive reactions from her fellow contestants.

Aside from the moral issue of beauty contests, the "winner" was clearly determined by factors other than their striking good looks. I personally find it all a bit sinister.

[hibby rae]

Aside from the moral issue of beauty contests, the "winner" was clearly determined by factors other than their striking good looks. I personally find it all a bit sinister.

I have zero interest in such things as well, and agree there can be a moral question. But also if others want to engage who am I to argue?

I have no idea what the determining factors were to win that particular contest.

[Stairway 2 7]

She is bigger than the beatles, so it can't be traditional beauty contest criteria

[147lothian]

“Here in Kirkcaldy, trans identifying Katie Dolatowski was convicted of assaulting a 10-year-old child in a local supermarket toilet. As a direct consequence the media framed this sexual predator as trans”

There lies one of the dangers. A whole community will be stigmatised by the actions of a few deviants who will exploit circumstances for their own nefarious ends.

This is why Gender self ID is flawed, from a woman's safety and child protection point of view.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDMFs7ZYw3Y

[Moulin Yarns]

This is why Gender self ID is flawed, from a woman's safety and child protection point of view.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDMFs7ZYw3Y

The woman in Kirkcaldy is a sexual predator, regardless of gender. That kind of person will always be a threat, regardless of how they identify.

[CropleyWasGod]

Flipping things for a bit....

Someone asked earlier about trans men in the public arena.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/11/09/us-elections-james-roesener-first-trans-man-elected/

[Keith_M]

Identifying as disabled…that concept was used by the SNP to create regional lists of prospective candidates for election iirc


:greengrin

[500miles]

The woman in Kirkcaldy is a sexual predator, regardless of gender. That kind of person will always be a threat, regardless of how they identify.
Aye, but if it was a cis man, he wouldn't be freely roaming the halls of a women's refuge weeks later.

[Keith_M]

I've decided to self identify as a Barcelona Fan...

[147lothian]

In case anyone gets het up about the conversation on the right there, it's a satirical account, written by Andrew Doyle.:greengrin

This stuff is Comedy Gold:greengrin



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jtMB6HkK8

[He's here!]

Gender recognition bill to be amended:

MSPs vote for changes to gender recognition bill - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63634397)

A small step in the right direction.

And in a bizarre development a woman wearing 'suffragette colours' was ejected from the parliament:

Scottish parliament apologises after suffragette scarf row - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63639814)

Actually looks more like a Hibs scarf.

[Moulin Yarns]

Gender recognition bill to be amended:

MSPs vote for changes to gender recognition bill - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63634397)

A small step in the right direction.

And in a bizarre development a woman wearing 'suffragette colours' was ejected from the parliament:

Scottish parliament apologises after suffragette scarf row - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63639814)

Actually looks more like a Hibs scarf.

The suffragette colours have been adopted by the anti trans activists according to a report I read.

[Stairway 2 7]

The suffragette colours have been adopted by the anti trans activists according to a report I read.

Does anti trans mean against trans or just have a different opinion on whether trans women are literally women. joanna cherry was tweeting a complaint about it yesterday. I'd doubt snp would allow someone who was anti trans to be in the party

[marinello59]

The suffragette colours have been adopted by the anti trans activists according to a report I read.

Are you saying that somehow justified throwing this woman out of our centre of democracy?

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you saying that somehow justified throwing this woman out of our centre of democracy?

No, but that's what I saw being reported as to the reason. No 'overtly' political symbols are allowed, apparently.

[Rumble de Thump]

Does anti trans mean against trans or just have a different opinion on whether trans women are literally women. joanna cherry was tweeting a complaint about it yesterday. I'd doubt snp would allow someone who was anti trans to be in the party

It means anti-transgender.

[Stairway 2 7]

It means anti-transgender.

Well if its actually anti transgender as a group, why haven't snp done anything against joanna cherry condemning it and why have scot gov said she shouldn't have been thrown out.

[147lothian]

The suffragette colours have been adopted by the anti trans activists according to a report I read.

Have you ever thought that this could be because the report you read is from an echo chamber, that confirms the idea that a man can click his fingers and become a woman and that anyone who doesn't go along with this and holds the view that the reality of biological sex matters, also that woman's sex-based rights have to be protected, a view held by the left until 5 minutes ago is now regarded as transphobic by people who want to erase womanhood.

[CropleyWasGod]

Have you ever thought that this could be because the report you read is from an echo chamber, that confirms the idea that a man can click his fingers and become a woman and that anyone who doesn't go along with this and holds the view that the reality of biological sex matters, also that woman's sex-based rights have to be protected, a view held by the left until 5 minutes ago is now regarded as transphobic by people who want to erase womanhood.

....like the BBC?

"More recently, they have also become associated with those opposed to changes to gender recognition laws."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63639814

All that piece, and others in other outlets, is saying is that is how the colours are perceived by some. Some. No echo chamber. No opinion given, just stating a fact.

[Stairway 2 7]

....like the BBC?

"More recently, they have also become associated with those opposed to changes to gender recognition laws."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63639814

All that piece, and others in other outlets, is saying is that is how the colours are perceived by some. Some. No echo chamber. No opinion given, just stating a fact.

That says people who appose changes, that is very different to anti trans. That's an opinion not a fact for many

[CropleyWasGod]

That says people who appose changes, that is very different to anti trans. That's an opinion not a fact for many

An opinion or a perception? :greengrin

[He's here!]

The suffragette colours have been adopted by the anti trans activists according to a report I read.

I'm unaware of any 'anti-trans' activist groups here, only people standing up for women's rights. That doesn't make you anti-trans.

[147lothian]

It's worth remembering that the reason feminists are against gender self ID is not because they are transphobic, it's because of case's like the paedophile man who identified as a woman and was housed at a female only hostel in Fife, same person also stayed at domestic violence refuge for woman and children in Leeds for 71 days sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in a Morrisons toilet in Kirkcaldy and filmed a 12-year-old girl in a toilet cubicle in a ASDA in Dunfermline.

The GRA and gender self ID create a loophole that can be exploited by predators like this, in this context it is a woman's safety and child protection issue.

[LewysGot2]

It's worth remembering that the reason feminists are against gender self ID is not because they are transphobic, it's because of case's like the paedophile man who identified as a woman and was housed at a female only hostel in Fife, same person also stayed at domestic violence refuge for woman and children in Leeds for 71 days sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in a Morrisons toilet in Kirkcaldy and filmed a 12-year-old girl in a toilet cubicle in a ASDA in Dunfermline.

The GRA and gender self ID create a loophole that can be exploited by predators like this, in this context it is a woman's safety and child protection issue.

This same person has now assaulted a male inmate in the male estate in prison. They have been moved to the female estate instead.

Someone who is over 6 ft tall, biologically not female, sexually assaulted a wee girl in supermarket toilets, lied to get to stay in a refuge for vulnerable women and children and now moved into the female estate in prison...

Risk assessment anyone?

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/3890638/katie-dolatowski-prison-assault/

[He's here!]

It's worth remembering that the reason feminists are against gender self ID is not because they are transphobic, it's because of case's like the paedophile man who identified as a woman and was housed at a female only hostel in Fife, same person also stayed at domestic violence refuge for woman and children in Leeds for 71 days sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in a Morrisons toilet in Kirkcaldy and filmed a 12-year-old girl in a toilet cubicle in a ASDA in Dunfermline.

The GRA and gender self ID create a loophole that can be exploited by predators like this, in this context it is a woman's safety and child protection issue.

Spot on. There are clearly plenty of men on here (not sure if are there any contributions from female posters) who fully appreciate the dangers inherent in this legislation but I think it's fair to say only a woman can really identify with the fear which can come from unwanted male attention eg being followed by some creep and being able to find refuge in a female changing room.

[Onceinawhile]

Green white and purple scarves mean you're a hibs fan no?

[LewysGot2]

Spot on. There are clearly plenty of men on here (not sure if are there any contributions from female posters) who fully appreciate the dangers inherent in this legislation but I think it's fair to say only a woman can really identify with the fear which can come from unwanted male attention eg being followed by some creep and being able to find refuge in a female changing room.

Not being bothered by something because it doesn't directly impact on your life is pretty much one definition of privilege.

The thing is some folk might not have a daughter to worry about and care about her rights. We all have had a mother.

[He's here!]

Not being bothered by something because it doesn't directly impact on your life is pretty much one definition of privilege.

The thing is some folk might not have a daughter to worry about and care about her rights. We all have had a mother.

Very true.

[LongJohnBanger]

Green white and purple scarves mean you're a hibs fan no?

Thought it was a belter of a Hibs scarf but a bit steep at 25 quid

[theola36]

useful information

[Keith_M]

I wasn't sure if this belongs on here or the World Cup thread...


‘I feel gay, disabled … like a woman too!’
(Gianni Infantino, Head of FIFA)

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/19/fifa-gianni-infantino-world-cup-qatar



OK, Gianni, you've definitely gone one step weirder than that Norwegian.





(https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/19/fifa-gianni-infantino-world-cup-qatar)

[He's here!]

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-very-seditious-scarf/

[Moulin Yarns]

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-very-seditious-scarf/

That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-canada-election-explainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-canada-election-explainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

Once again with the "transphobic" " anti trans". Somehow now if you have a different opinion on the issue your transphobic, nonsense. You might agree or disagree but it's a valid non bigoted opinion to think women should have female only spaces or teans women are not women

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.facebook.com/100064712974967/posts/pfbid0dzbTDVaMBe8LHFKnJtRuBEFPR2SBt7RMTEh7Cd64e7t7 crCUaN9NGHH3DgjXa5SEl/

[superfurryhibby]

That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-canada-election-explainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

You seem to be sailing close to the wind when using the language of hate quite a bit yourself, all too readily dismissing opposing views as anti-trans and transphobic when in reality pretty much everyone responding on here knows they are nothing of the kind.

Personally, I find the term and labelling of women's rights groups as "TERF" to be discriminatory and unacceptable. I suppose it would be a bit like me referring to trans rights activists as misogynistic trans advocates or trans right supporting woman haters.

[archie]

https://www.facebook.com/100064712974967/posts/pfbid0dzbTDVaMBe8LHFKnJtRuBEFPR2SBt7RMTEh7Cd64e7t7 crCUaN9NGHH3DgjXa5SEl/I see you are very commited to this. Just out of interest, can you tell me how many lives were lost to transgender hatred in the last year?

[Stairway 2 7]

I see you are very commited to this. Just out of interest, can you tell me how many lives were lost to transgender hatred in the last year?

Lower rate of murder than the general population, but figures are too low to be significant. That's not to say they don't face discrimination, as I'm sure they do

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

[He's here!]

That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-canada-election-explainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

I'm not posting it as news. It's a comment piece which IMHO gets to the heart of why Sturgeon has lost her way on this issue.

Re Harry Potter, the principled stance taken by J K Rowling (who is not, incidentally, an 'anti-trans activist') has actually enhanced my respect for her work.

[archie]

Lower rate of murder than the general population, but figures are too low to be significant. That's not to say they don't face discrimination, as I'm sure they do

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-ukFirstly, it's awful to weaponise deaths and assaults of anyone. But to have a solemn day of commemoration when no one actully knows if anyone has actually died as a result of being trans strikes me as a bit of creating a narrative to support wider calls for change, rather than a genuine commemoration.

[CropleyWasGod]

Firstly, it's awful to weaponise deaths and assaults of anyone. But to have a solemn day of commemoration when no one actully knows if anyone has actually died as a result of being trans strikes me as a bit of creating a narrative to support wider calls for change, rather than a genuine commemoration.

This might help.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewareham/2021/11/11/375-transgender-people-murdered-in-2021-deadliest-year-since-records-began/

[archie]

This might help.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewareham/2021/11/11/375-transgender-people-murdered-in-2021-deadliest-year-since-records-began/It is (of course) contested https://www.queermajority.com/currents/tdor-trans-death-and-trans-life I have no idea of what is true here, but I suspect it's difficult to pin down data, causality etc. I saw a set of figures that suggested the figure for the UK was 1 in the last four years. A tragedy for sure, but worthy of a day of rememberence?

[Stairway 2 7]

This might help.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewareham/2021/11/11/375-transgender-people-murdered-in-2021-deadliest-year-since-records-began/

Its impossible to put up a list and make a reading from it unfortunately. If the majority of the deaths are in South America, what is the rate of deaths of sex workers there. Probably a good example of needing legalised safe sex work. I read the first 20 or so on the list and many are deaths from domestic abuse, should that be on the list. I think adding any trans person that has been murdered in the list diminishes the vile stoning of a person further down the list

Certainly thankfully the murder of trans people for being trans is almost non existent in Europe. I'm sure discrimination is huge though.

[CropleyWasGod]

There's also this, for England & Wales.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hate-crime-transgender-uk-figures-b2196759.html

In terms of transphobia, it might be a better guide of its insidious nature.

Again, there are disturbing echoes of the queer-bashing of the 70s and 80s.

[archie]

There's also this, for England & Wales.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hate-crime-transgender-uk-figures-b2196759.html

In terms of transphobia, it might be a better guide of its insidious nature.

Again, there are disturbing echoes of the queer-bashing of the 70s and 80s.
The rise appears to be largely driven by social media commentary. Not that it's irrelevant, but there is an extraordinarily wide definition of what 'hate' is in this context. Some argue that legitimate questions are being characterised unfairly as hate.

[CropleyWasGod]

The rise appears to be largely driven by social media commentary. Not that it's irrelevant, but there is an extraordinarily wide definition of what 'hate' is in this context. Some argue that legitimate questions are being characterised unfairly as hate.

On the flip-side, those numbers reflect reported incidents. With any marginalised group (eg sex workers, LGB in past times)..... and, of course, with sexual assault.... there's often a reluctance to engage with what's seen as the establishment. There will be a lot that is unreported.

[archie]

On the flip-side, those numbers reflect reported incidents. With any marginalised group (eg sex workers, LGB in past times)..... and, of course, with sexual assault.... there's often a reluctance to engage with what's seen as the establishment. There will be a lot that is unreported.
I don't disagree with you on this. I'm not convinced, however, that a day of remembrance is entirely sincere.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't disagree with you on this. I'm not convinced, however, that a day of remembrance is entirely sincere.

You are aware this is a global day of remembrance, not just for the UK.?

[archie]

You are aware this is a global day of remembrance, not just for the UK.?

Yes.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.facebook.com/100064712974967/posts/pfbid0dzbTDVaMBe8LHFKnJtRuBEFPR2SBt7RMTEh7Cd64e7t7 crCUaN9NGHH3DgjXa5SEl/

The full text. Note the second part!



Tonight, Perth's Smeaton Bridge will be lit blue, pink and white to mark Transgender Day of Remembrance.

This annual Remembrance Day is to remember lives who have been sadly lost due to anti-transgender hatred and violence and to help raise visibility for transgender people and address issues the community faces.

——————————

Commenting on this post has been turned off. Sadly comments made by a minority of people show why awareness days like this continue to be necessary.

[147lothian]

That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-canada-election-explainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

However, JK Rowling has never said anything transphobic, it's not trans people that deny the reality of biological sex and send hate mail and death threats to her, it's trans activist that claim to speak on their behalf that do this. For most trans people if there is no such thing as biological sex there is no such thing as trans, this is why the trans allies, who are themselves not trans are making things worse for actual trans people, who just want to get on with their life's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyzZ3J6IG6s

[archie]

The full text. Note the second part!



Tonight, Perth's Smeaton Bridge will be lit blue, pink and white to mark Transgender Day of Remembrance.

This annual Remembrance Day is to remember lives who have been sadly lost due to anti-transgender hatred and violence and to help raise visibility for transgender people and address issues the community faces.

——————————

Commenting on this post has been turned off. Sadly comments made by a minority of people show why awareness days like this continue to be necessary.

So it's actually about the agenda rather than rememberance.

[archie]

Irvine Welsh's take: https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh/status/1594603048877391872

[James310]

https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1595105976688037888?t=Qwi9PsWObLQoM0UBsHGx7w&s=19

[James310]

The legislation does sound like a mess, apparently it will be a crime to lie about living in your acquired gender, yet no definition of what living in your acquired gender is. So how does that work?

You will be punished if you drive over the speed limit, but we can't tell you what the speed limit is.

This is what happens when legislation is rushed and the desire to push a policy over everything else, you end up with rubbish legislation. (See Named Person legislation which was deemed illegal and dropped at a cost of millions)

[147lothian]

https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1595105976688037888?t=Qwi9PsWObLQoM0UBsHGx7w&s=19

Thanks for posting this, it is a very interesting read that exposes the level of unthinking of Nicola Sturgeon's GRA, it seems like the question of what happens if a sex offender registers or the implications for woman in prisons or domestic violence refuges has not been thought about or debated in the rush to push through Gender Self ID in what can only be described as a giant virtue signal by Nicola Sturgeon to look good rather than do good.

[CropleyWasGod]

So it's actually about the agenda rather than rememberance.

This is from the European Sex Workers Alliance, with whom I occasionally work. They don't mention deaths,but the remembrance of those who have suffered harm.

November 20 is the Transgender Day of Remembrance (TDoR), a day to memorialise those who have been victims of transphobia and homophobia. On this day, we, the activists fighting for the trans people’ rights, are trying to draw the public attention to discrimination, violence, hate speech, and injustice towards the community members.

From January to November 2022, we collected 94 cases of hate crimes against transgender people, including physical and psychological violence, destruction of property, rape, extortion, robbery, disclosure of personal information and kidnapping; the cases were committed both by family members, colleagues, friends of transgender people, and public officials.

It should be noted that during the recent months, the “Right Side” Human Rights Defender NGO has been working in an emergency situation, trying to respond to the increased cases of violence, discrimination, hate speech and hate crimes against transgender people, doing everything possible to ensure the safety and well-being of the trans community.
#TDOR2022

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1595105976688037888?t=Qwi9PsWObLQoM0UBsHGx7w&s=19

There's a lot been added to that since you first posted the link. It's strong stuff and bang on the money when it comes to outlining how Sturgeon has lost the plot on this.

[archie]

UN intervenes https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1595336668499902464

[He's here!]

UN intervenes https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1595336668499902464

That's a hefty letter to put it mildly. I'll attempt to wade through it later.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63730621

BBC have the UN intervention story. Easier to read than the full letter!

[CropleyWasGod]

UN intervenes https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1595336668499902464

Given that the report is made to HMG, it will be interesting to see what they do with it. After all, it is a devolved matter.

I skim read the report and I see that there is very little (no?) reference to international evidence from the 30 odd countries that have GRC. I've asked before on this thread, with no success.... does either side have any?

[archie]

Given that the report is made to HMG, it will be interesting to see what they do with it. After all, it is a devolved matter.

I skim read the report and I see that there is very little (no?) reference to international evidence from the 30 odd countries that have GRC. I've asked before on this thread, with no success.... does either side have any?

I guess it went to HMG as the member state. I assume they will pass to SG with some glee.

[CropleyWasGod]

I guess it went to HMG as the member state. I assume they will pass to SG with some glee.

They'll also photocopy bits of it, since it's their turn next:)

[archie]

Given that the report is made to HMG, it will be interesting to see what they do with it. After all, it is a devolved matter.

I skim read the report and I see that there is very little (no?) reference to international evidence from the 30 odd countries that have GRC. I've asked before on this thread, with no success.... does either side have any?

On your evidence point I suspect it's too early to have proper peer reviewed research.

[147lothian]

An interested take on the level of unthinking in Gender Self ID suggesting it's all about virtue signaling


https://www.spiked-online.com/video/nicola-sturgeons-trans-crusade/

[CropleyWasGod]

On your evidence point I suspect it's too early to have proper peer reviewed research.

Fair point.

I have another question, not necessarily aimed at you, but for those who seem to be all over the Bill.

Is there provision for review after a set period of time? IMO , the best practice in societal-change issues such as this is to have that. That way, any unintended consequences can be assessed and the legislation changed, if appropriate.

[archie]

Fair point.

I have another question, not necessarily aimed at you, but for those who seem to be all over the Bill.

Is there provision for review after a set period of time? IMO , the best practice in societal-change issues such as this is to have that. That way, any unintended consequences can be assessed and the legislation changed, if appropriate.

Interesting point re review. That doesn't, in itself, mean that issues arising would be addressed. Another approach would be to put a 'sunset clause' in the legislation. I suspect that would be very unpopular with proponents of the legislation.

[CropleyWasGod]

Interesting point re review. That doesn't, in itself, mean that issues arising would be addressed. Another approach would be to put a 'sunset clause' in the legislation. I suspect that would be very unpopular with proponents of the legislation.

As it turns out, a review has been recommended.... just yesterday. They must have read this page :)

https://www.scottishtrans.org/final-amendments-on-gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-at-stage-two/

A smart move IMO.

[archie]

Ad it turns out, a review has been recommended.... just yesterday. They must have read this page :)

https://www.scottishtrans.org/final-amendments-on-gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-at-stage-two/

A smart move IMO.It's certainly a politically smart move.

[He's here!]

Ash Regan's column for the Times yesterday:

A few weeks ago I found myself in a strange predicament. Despite being a loyal minister of many years standing, my conscience would not allow me to vote with the government on gender reform. Yesterday the Gender Recognition Reform Bill passed its second stage of scrutiny virtually unamended in any substantive way.
I am not against reform in this area but any reforms must protect the rights of everyone (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/law-must-stop-sex-offenders-abusing-new-gender-recognition-rules-tkg82hx96). In my view the key areas of concern are the implications for children’s health, women’s rights and safeguarding.
Children considering transitioning often need mental health support, and a “wait and see” approach can work well. Social transition can too easily lead to a medicalised pathway (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/robin-harper-and-joanna-cherry-condemn-sandyford-childrens-gender-services-5qc7d6bc6) — of untested puberty blockers, sex hormones and even surgery, all of which come with physical health risks, loss of sexual function and even sterility. As a society we do not let children make choices with such far-reaching consequences.
Amendments that could have prevented those on the sex offenders register from obtaining a gender recognition certificate (GRC) and strengthened the law on single sex prison allocation were voted down or withdrawn. Many public institutions in Scotland are already operating a de facto self-ID policy which is questionable as this is prior to the law being changed.
A recent example is Katie Dolatowski, a trans-identified male and convicted sex offender who is in prison for physical assault and has just been moved from Polmont (where Dolatowski had assaulted a male inmate) to Cornton Vale Prison, which is part of Scotland’s female prison estate. Questions are rightly being asked about the risk posed to female prisoners and staff.
We have single-sex prisons for a reason. The law should support the Scottish Prison Service to hold prisoners according to the risk they present, no matter how they identify. Violent sex offenders have no place in the women’s estate.
Women’s single-sex spaces for privacy, safety or therapeutic purposes are enshrined in the Equality Act 2010. These important protections will be impossible to uphold when anyone can decide they are a woman and have a GRC to prove their legal status.
If this bill is to be enacted, there needs to be clear guidance for institutions and business to ensure they operate within the law. There are so many unanswered questions. More clarity is required so that we understand the impact this change in the law will have on all of us.

[LewysGot2]

Ash Regan's column for the Times yesterday:

A few weeks ago I found myself in a strange predicament. Despite being a loyal minister of many years standing, my conscience would not allow me to vote with the government on gender reform. Yesterday the Gender Recognition Reform Bill passed its second stage of scrutiny virtually unamended in any substantive way.
I am not against reform in this area but any reforms must protect the rights of everyone (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/law-must-stop-sex-offenders-abusing-new-gender-recognition-rules-tkg82hx96). In my view the key areas of concern are the implications for children’s health, women’s rights and safeguarding.
Children considering transitioning often need mental health support, and a “wait and see” approach can work well. Social transition can too easily lead to a medicalised pathway (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/robin-harper-and-joanna-cherry-condemn-sandyford-childrens-gender-services-5qc7d6bc6) — of untested puberty blockers, sex hormones and even surgery, all of which come with physical health risks, loss of sexual function and even sterility. As a society we do not let children make choices with such far-reaching consequences.
Amendments that could have prevented those on the sex offenders register from obtaining a gender recognition certificate (GRC) and strengthened the law on single sex prison allocation were voted down or withdrawn. Many public institutions in Scotland are already operating a de facto self-ID policy which is questionable as this is prior to the law being changed.
A recent example is Katie Dolatowski, a trans-identified male and convicted sex offender who is in prison for physical assault and has just been moved from Polmont (where Dolatowski had assaulted a male inmate) to Cornton Vale Prison, which is part of Scotland’s female prison estate. Questions are rightly being asked about the risk posed to female prisoners and staff.
We have single-sex prisons for a reason. The law should support the Scottish Prison Service to hold prisoners according to the risk they present, no matter how they identify. Violent sex offenders have no place in the women’s estate.
Women’s single-sex spaces for privacy, safety or therapeutic purposes are enshrined in the Equality Act 2010. These important protections will be impossible to uphold when anyone can decide they are a woman and have a GRC to prove their legal status.
If this bill is to be enacted, there needs to be clear guidance for institutions and business to ensure they operate within the law. There are so many unanswered questions. More clarity is required so that we understand the impact this change in the law will have on all of us.


Reasoned and thoughtful.

No doubt someone somewhere will shout “bigot”

The intolerance of the moral high ground where reasoned debate is shut down. It’s like a new religion.

[He's here!]

Reasoned and thoughtful.

No doubt someone somewhere will shout “bigot”

The intolerance of the moral high ground where reasoned debate is shut down. It’s like a new religion.

Here's an exceptionally well-written piece from the Guardian today which not only addresses the concerns around women's safety but also those around gender dyshphoria and social transition. It lays bare Sturgeon's tin-headed refusal to listen to reason in favour of ploughing on regardless with what has become a dangerous vanity project:

Sturgeon’s plans to reform gender law could leave Tories as the champions of women’s rights | Sonia Sodha | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/27/nicola-sturgeon-will-endanger-women-if-she-opens-single-sex-spaces-almost-everone)

"Sturgeon remains blinkered: she has ignored female victims of male violence, treated the concerns of the UN special rapporteur dismissively and failed to listen to young people who received appalling care from NHS Scotland and now regret their transition. Her implausible mantra remains that no man will abuse the system, women’s rights are not affected and evidence reviewed by an English paediatrician has no relevance to Scottish children."

[He's here!]

JK Rowling attacks Labour over support for Nicola Sturgeon's gender bill (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/27/jk-rowling-attacks-labour-support-nicola-sturgeons-gender-bill/)

Rowling says Scottish Labour have handed Tories an 'open goal on safeguarding women'. Echoes yesterday's Guardian comment piece.

Leaked report shows almost half of female Labour Party members do not support the bill.

[He's here!]

https://news.sky.com/story/shame-on-you-nicola-sturgeon-heckled-over-scottish-government-gender-reforms-12758613

'Nicola Sturgeon accidentally exposed to some freedom of speech'.

[Berwickhibby]

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1597668739222474753 JK knows 😀

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1597668739222474753 JK knows 😀

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/30/jk-rowling-champagne-nicola-sturgeon-heckler-alexandra-darroch/

Apparently she has actually sent the heckler a case of wine.

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-nicola-sturgeon-now-guilty-of-transphobia/

'Is Nicola Sturgeon now guilty of transphobia?'

Massie has his say.

[CropleyWasGod]

Interesting development.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/scottish-human-rights-blog/womens-and-human-rights-organisations-restate-support-gender

Amnesty Scotland, Scottish Women's Aid, Engender, Rape Crisis Scotland, JustRight Scotland, Scottish Women's Rights Centre all restating their support for the current bill.

Their letter to the UN Special Rapporteur is interesting.

[James310]

Interesting development.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/scottish-human-rights-blog/womens-and-human-rights-organisations-restate-support-gender

Amnesty Scotland, Scottish Women's Aid, Engender, Rape Crisis Scotland, JustRight Scotland, Scottish Women's Rights Centre all restating their support for the current bill.

Their letter to the UN Special Rapporteur is interesting.

Most of those organisations if not all get some or all their funding from the Scottish Government. I can imagine if they never supported it there would be consequences, funding might suddenly go elsewhere.

[Moulin Yarns]

Interesting development.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/scottish-human-rights-blog/womens-and-human-rights-organisations-restate-support-gender

Amnesty Scotland, Scottish Women's Aid, Engender, Rape Crisis Scotland, JustRight Scotland, Scottish Women's Rights Centre all restating their support for the current bill.

Their letter to the UN Special Rapporteur is interesting.

That's quite an endorsement.

[CropleyWasGod]

Most of those organisations if not all get some or all their funding from the Scottish Government. I can imagine if they never supported it there would be consequences, funding might suddenly go elsewhere.

Yeah, I have seen those accusations.

I've been involved with organisations on the end of that kind of stuff in the past, and it's not pleasant. It's a sign that the debate has moved on from the facts and evidence, and has resorted to ad hominem attacks.

What is being suggested that every one of those organisations, with their collective experience over many decades, have decided that they will go against their actual beliefs and principles through 2 public consultations, a contentious parliamentary process (including, as they say, over 150 suggested amendments), and an emotive and widespread public debate, purely to protect some of their funding. And, in all that time, no whistle-blower or disgruntled current or ex-employee has said anything.

If that's what they have done, **** them. They deserve to get blasted.

However, as I/we always said to those who would make such accusations..... Prove it.

(they never did :cb)

[Stairway 2 7]

Amnesty is a big business mouthpiece awash with Russian influence. Its a world away from where it was decades ago. They should have been defunded after their victim blaming and worse of Ukraine

https://www.politico.eu/article/amnesty-ukraine-report-wrong/amp/

[marinello59]

Most of those organisations if not all get some or all their funding from the Scottish Government. I can imagine if they never supported it there would be consequences, funding might suddenly go elsewhere.

I doubt if that would come in to the thinking of any of those organisations.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yeah, I have seen those accusations.

I've been involved with organisations on the end of that kind of stuff in the past, and it's not pleasant. It's a sign that the debate has moved on from the facts and evidence, and has resorted to ad hominem attacks.

What is being suggested that every one of those organisations, with their collective experience over many decades, have decided that they will go against their actual beliefs and principles through 2 public consultations, a contentious parliamentary process (including, as they say, over 150 suggested amendments), and an emotive and widespread public debate, purely to protect some of their funding. And, in all that time, no whistle-blower or disgruntled current or ex-employee has said anything.

If that's what they have done, **** them. They deserve to get blasted.

However, as I/we always said to those who would make such accusations..... Prove it.

(they never did :cb)

How are you going to prove that someone sides with where their wages comes from. Its not illegal it's natural.

[Stairway 2 7]

I doubt if that would come in to the thinking of any of those organisations.

3 of those listed were the ones embroiled in controversy for employing a trans female as their Edinburgh. They defended Mridul Wadhwa the head of a rape crisis centre who said “bigoted” survivors should have their “unacceptable beliefs” challenged as part of their recovery

The above listed are all very much on one side opposing the feminist groups

[James310]

I doubt if that would come in to the thinking of any of those organisations.

I would certainly hope so but you never know.

"Charities across Scotland are being silenced by “gagging orders” that prevent them from criticising SNP policies or backing rival campaigns as part of contracts to receive state funding.

Two leading organisations have confirmed they face curbs on free speech under their government funding deal. Critics have said the SNP is “handcuffing charities”, but some groups have ignored the contractual obligation to refrain from engaging in party politics.

Shelter Scotland and Victim Support Scotland said that they were subject to restrictions. The Scottish government denies that contracts for grant funding prohibit charities from supporting campaigns and influencing policy. However, the terms in Victim Support Scotland’s funding letter say: “No part of the grant shall be used to fund any activity or material which is party political in intention, use, or presentation or appears to be designed to affect support for a political party."

And remember Devi Sridhar and others at the start of the pandemic saying experts feared being critical of the SNP incase they lost their funding.

I hope that doesn't come into it though.

[CropleyWasGod]

How are you going to prove that someone sides with where their wages comes from. Its not illegal it's natural.

Like I say, if that is what happened, there will be people who know, people who work for them or who have worked for them.

[Stairway 2 7]

Like I say, if that is what happened, there will be people who know, people who work for them or who have worked for them.

I'm not saying anything illegal or bribery. But it's surely obvious if you get funding and your job perhaps depends on it, your not subjective

[archie]

I would certainly hope so but you never know.

"Charities across Scotland are being silenced by “gagging orders” that prevent them from criticising SNP policies or backing rival campaigns as part of contracts to receive state funding.

Two leading organisations have confirmed they face curbs on free speech under their government funding deal. Critics have said the SNP is “handcuffing charities”, but some groups have ignored the contractual obligation to refrain from engaging in party politics.

Shelter Scotland and Victim Support Scotland said that they were subject to restrictions. The Scottish government denies that contracts for grant funding prohibit charities from supporting campaigns and influencing policy. However, the terms in Victim Support Scotland’s funding letter say: “No part of the grant shall be used to fund any activity or material which is party political in intention, use, or presentation or appears to be designed to affect support for a political party."

And remember Devi Sridhar and others at the start of the pandemic saying experts feared being critical of the SNP incase they lost their funding.

I hope that doesn't come into it though.
We need to be careful what we are suggesting here. It's perfectly reasonable that a body receiving government funding should not use that funding for political (in its widest sense) campaigning. That's not the same as saying a body won't get funding if it is critical of the government.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not saying anything illegal or bribery. But it's surely obvious if you get funding and your job perhaps depends on it, your not subjective

All it needs is one pissed-off former employee :cb

[archie]

Yeah, I have seen those accusations.

I've been involved with organisations on the end of that kind of stuff in the past, and it's not pleasant. It's a sign that the debate has moved on from the facts and evidence, and has resorted to ad hominem attacks.

What is being suggested that every one of those organisations, with their collective experience over many decades, have decided that they will go against their actual beliefs and principles through 2 public consultations, a contentious parliamentary process (including, as they say, over 150 suggested amendments), and an emotive and widespread public debate, purely to protect some of their funding. And, in all that time, no whistle-blower or disgruntled current or ex-employee has said anything.

If that's what they have done, **** them. They deserve to get blasted.

However, as I/we always said to those who would make such accusations..... Prove it.

(they never did :cb)

I think that your argument implies that there is the third sector and a separate group of politicians. The lines are, of course, much more blurred. Maggie Chapman, for example, had a prominent role in Rape Crisis Scotland which is at the heart of much of this controversy. I'm sure there are other examples.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think that your argument implies that there is the third sector and a separate group of politicians. The lines are, of course, much more blurred. Maggie Chapman, for example, had a prominent role in Rape Crisis Scotland which is at the heart of much of this controversy. I'm sure there are other examples.

It's not meant to imply that at all. I'm well aware of the intersection of politicians and charities, having worked with many over the years.

I'm railing against the social-media assumption that "they must be corrupt", with no evidence (so far) other than people's agendas. I do find it strange, though, that the stances of these 6 organisations have been in the public domain for a few years now, yet it's only now that the **** is flying. (But that is social media for you, of course :greengrin)

Like I say, if they have done what they are being accused of, they deserve everything that comes their way.

[Stairway 2 7]

All it needs is one pissed-off former employee :cb

That doesn't make sense to the example I gave

[Stairway 2 7]

It's not meant to imply that at all. I'm well aware of the intersection of politicians and charities, having worked with many over the years.

I'm railing against the social-media assumption that "they must be corrupt", with no evidence (so far) other than people's agendas. I do find it strange, though, that the stances of these 6 organisations have been in the public domain for a few years now, yet it's only now that the **** is flying.

Like I say, if they have done what they are being accused of, they deserve everything that comes their way.

The social media opinion isn't that they are corrupt. It that 3 of the named are very much the extreme end of the discussion and the opposite of the feminists stance. They employed a trans female to head Edinburgh rape crisis and then supported her abhorrent comments on re educating rape victims

[archie]

It's not meant to imply that at all. I'm well aware of the intersection of politicians and charities, having worked with many over the years.

I'm railing against the social-media assumption that "they must be corrupt", with no evidence (so far) other than people's agendas. I do find it strange, though, that the stances of these 6 organisations have been in the public domain for a few years now, yet it's only now that the **** is flying. (But that is social media for you, of course :greengrin)

Like I say, if they have done what they are being accused of, they deserve everything that comes their way.

I actually don't think there is corruption. But I don't think there needs to be either. The alignment between the Government and these organisations isn't just money. It's a widely shared value base, which includes trans issues. Unfortunately it's an issue where it is very difficult to challenge. I hate to jump into anecdote but I have been told by two women in the sector recently that they would not dare raise concerns about the issue at work.That can't be right.

[He's here!]

The social media opinion isn't that they are corrupt. It that 3 of the named are very much the extreme end of the discussion and the opposite of the feminists stance. They employed a trans female to head Edinburgh rape crisis and then supported her abhorrent comments on re educating rape victims

Just catching up on this now and you're dead tight. Hardly a surprise they are backing the bill.

[Mr Grieves]

The social media opinion isn't that they are corrupt. It that 3 of the named are very much the extreme end of the discussion and the opposite of the feminists stance. They employed a trans female to head Edinburgh rape crisis and then supported her abhorrent comments on re educating rape victims

Feminists stance? So you can't be a feminist and support the GRA? :hmmm:

[Mr Grieves]

Just catching up on this now and you're dead tight. Hardly a surprise they are backing the bill.

So women's voices are only worth listening to when they agree with your point of view?

[Stairway 2 7]

Feminists stance? So you can't be a feminist and support the GRA? :hmmm:

I'm sure you could be, but I was talking about organisations. I've yet to see one (and I've seen a dozen) come out in support.

[He's here!]

So women's voices are only worth listening to when they agree with your point of view?

That's not what I said.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm sure you could be, but I was talking about organisations. I've yet to see one (and I've seen a dozen) come out in support.

I've perhaps misunderstood you here. Are you saying that Engender and SWA, for example, aren't feminist?

[Stairway 2 7]

I've perhaps misunderstood you here. Are you saying that Engender and SWA, for example, aren't feminist?

No I said I hadn't seen any. But both above are on one side of the debate after reading their opinion. They push that a trans women is literally a woman, supporting them can be feminism too. The other side says that is nonsense and not feminism, trans women aren't women and biological females are being silenced.

It's up to them to argue if one side is true feminism. One thing, the establishment is pushing the former as being correct and the later opinion anti trans which is obviously ridiculous

[CropleyWasGod]

No I said I hadn't seen any. But both above are on one side of the debate after reading their opinion. They push that a trans women is literally a woman, supporting them can be feminism too. The other side says that is nonsense and not feminism, trans women aren't women and biological females are being silenced.

It's up to them to argue if one side is true feminism. One thing, the establishment is pushing the former as being correct and the later opinion anti trans which is obviously ridiculous

OK thanks 😊. I can breathe again... I thought for a minute that there was going to be a debate on what a feminist is 😀

[Stairway 2 7]

OK thanks 😊. I can breathe again... I thought for a minute that there was going to be a debate on what a feminist is 😀

I wouldn't even step into it as I'm too ill-informed. If feminist groups like above want to support trans females I'd personally think it's good. I'm sure per capita trans people need more support and face more discrimination than any.

I agree with 99% of GRA and hope a sensible solution can be found for the rest. It needs to come from everyone listening to each others opinions though and I don't think that is happening

[archie]

OK thanks 😊. I can breathe again... I thought for a minute that there was going to be a debate on what a feminist is 😀

Thank god for that!

[archie]

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/06/25/stage-1-of-the-gender-recognition-reform-bill-a-balancing-act/

[Mr Grieves]

That's not what I said.

It was a question. There's folk on here who were going on about men listening to women but as soon as there's women saying something they don't agree with the smears started.

I'm not an expert on trans or women's rights so it's important for me to hear the opinions of organisations representing these groups who are more likely to have a broader experience of trans/women's opinion than a few people going mental in a social media echo chamber. Just a thought likes.

[Stairway 2 7]

It was a question. There's folk on here who were going on about men listening to women but as soon as there's women saying something they don't agree with the smears started.

I'm not an expert on trans or women's rights so it's important for me to hear the opinions of organisations representing these groups who are more likely to have a broader experience of trans/women's opinion than a few people going mental in a social media echo chamber. Just a thought likes.

The group of charities listed above are the extreme in the debate. Very much trans women are women period. It was 3 of them that were embroiled in the controversy of a trans woman being given head gig in rape crisis, then supporting her controversial views.

I'd say the vast majority are somewhere in the middle between them and radical feminist groups

[Stairway 2 7]

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/06/25/stage-1-of-the-gender-recognition-reform-bill-a-balancing-act/

That's a shocking read, it's a stich up. Women will wheesht

[He's here!]

It was a question. There's folk on here who were going on about men listening to women but as soon as there's women saying something they don't agree with the smears started.

I'm not an expert on trans or women's rights so it's important for me to hear the opinions of organisations representing these groups who are more likely to have a broader experience of trans/women's opinion than a few people going mental in a social media echo chamber. Just a thought likes.

In that case my answer to the question is no, of course not. Everyone is entitled to their own view. I was simply agreeing that several of those organisations are unlikely to provide anything like a balanced viewpoint.

If you have time to read through the thread you'll find there are some very well informed opinions being offered on this issue. Working in children's education, I have acquired a significant amount of knowledge about what's at stake and am strongly of the view that this bill is bad law and should, at the very least, be paused.

[He's here!]

That's a shocking read, it's a stich up. Women will wheesht

Jeez, stich-up indeed.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/ChtyCommission/status/1598670350404960258?t=hoTSEE67oXES9K5Efkv9HA&s=19

I am sure the Scottish Government have used Mermaids and met with them about consulting on and influencing the GRA.

It feels like the GRA should be paused rather than rushing it through later this month.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/ChtyCommission/status/1598670350404960258?t=hoTSEE67oXES9K5Efkv9HA&s=19

I am sure the Scottish Government have used Mermaids and met with them about consulting on and influencing the GRA.

It feels like the GRA should be paused rather than rushing it through later this month.

Such an investigation is long overdue IMHO.

[archie]

Such an investigation is long overdue IMHO.

Maybe why the CEO departed abruptly last week.

[CropleyWasGod]

Maybe why the CEO departed abruptly last week.

The Mermaids saga is murky, and seems to revolve around safeguarding and controversial appointments. Much of it, of course, is being played out on social media, which is never the most reliable of sources.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://twitter.com/ChtyCommission/status/1598670350404960258?t=hoTSEE67oXES9K5Efkv9HA&s=19

I am sure the Scottish Government have used Mermaids and met with them about consulting on and influencing the GRA.

It feels like the GRA should be paused rather than rushing it through later this month.

SG did indeed consult Mermaids, along with hundreds of other interested parties, in the longest and most widespread consultation process in its history.

[James310]

SG did indeed consult Mermaids, along with hundreds of other interested parties, in the longest and most widespread consultation process in its history.

Ok thanks for confirming I was correct as I wasn't sure.

[superfurryhibby]

The Committee received 10,800 short form submissions and 800 long form ones. This appears to be five times more than any previous Scottish Parliament Bill call for evidence. A summary analysis of the short form ones was published on 23 May. Of these responses, 38% supported ‘the purpose of the Bill’, 59% did not and 3% had no view. For the proposal to make GRCs available without a diagnosis, the figures are only shown in an unlabelled graphic, but it appears around 34% supported self-declaration, 64% did not and 2% offered no view. A summary of the long form responses does not yet appear to be publicly available.

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/06/25/stage-1-of-the-gender-recognition-reform-bill-a-balancing-act/

The selection process for the consultations, seems pretty loaded in favour of proponents of the bill.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Committee received 10,800 short form submissions and 800 long form ones. This appears to be five times more than any previous Scottish Parliament Bill call for evidence. A summary analysis of the short form ones was published on 23 May. Of these responses, 38% supported ‘the purpose of the Bill’, 59% did not and 3% had no view. For the proposal to make GRCs available without a diagnosis, the figures are only shown in an unlabelled graphic, but it appears around 34% supported self-declaration, 64% did not and 2% offered no view. A summary of the long form responses does not yet appear to be publicly available.

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/06/25/stage-1-of-the-gender-recognition-reform-bill-a-balancing-act/

The selection process for the consultations, seems pretty loaded in favour of proponents of the bill.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-analysis-responses-public-consultation-exercise/

In total 17,058 responses were available for analysis. Most responses (16,843 of those available for analysis) were submitted by individual members of the public, with the remaining 215 submitted by organisations.

Those resident in Scotland accounted for 55% of respondents, with 32% resident in the rest of the UK and the remaining 14% resident in the rest of the world.

[CropleyWasGod]

The consultation process is about more than just the numbers.

The body that administers it (who, AIUI, are civil servants rather than political appointments) have to take into account the amount of cut-and-pasting that goes on. For example, an organisation might might say to its 100 members "this is what we're saying to the consultation. Please say the same". Or organisations might get together and say "let's make sure we all say the same". In those situations, it's only really one argument that is being put forward, irrespective of the numbers.

The SG unit is well aware of this, and has to make sure that the breadth of opinion is reflected when taking things to the next stage. Of course the numbers are important, but it's the different shades within those numbers that, IMO, is more important.

[He's here!]

The bulk of the opposition to this bill has been focused on the threat it poses to women's safety, which is entirely understandable. I do feel, though, that of major concern is that it would enable children as young as 16 to change their legal sex. In the light of the Charity Commission investigation into Mermaids (whose approach to gender dysphoria has led to the NHS putting children on the path to irreversible medical treatment), I feel this needs urgent reassessment.

Unlike the NHS in England, who have taken on board Hilary Cass's findings that gender dysphoria in children is transient (in contrast to the Mermaids dogma that it is an indicator of a fixed trans identity), Sturgeon remains blinkered to such advice, seemingly believing that it doesn't apply to children in Scotland and is paving the way for inappropriate social transition with no clinical input whatsoever.

[archie]

The consultation process is about more than just the numbers.

The body that administers it (who, AIUI, are civil servants rather than political appointments) have to take into account the amount of cut-and-pasting that goes on. For example, an organisation might might say to its 100 members "this is what we're saying to the consultation. Please say the same". Or organisations might get together and say "let's make sure we all say the same". In those situations, it's only really one argument that is being put forward, irrespective of the numbers.

The SG unit is well aware of this, and has to make sure that the breadth of opinion is reflected when taking things to the next stage. Of course the numbers are important, but it's the different shades within those numbers that, IMO, is more important.

It's true that a consultation isn't a vote. It's more to highlight issues and draw on expertise.But there is a tricky issue in balancing individual responses and those from organisations representing members or working on issues. How do you weigh the views on a health issue of, say, the BMA against members of the public. Instinctively you would give weight to the BMA on the basis that they would be informed and also are a representative body. But with the current vogue for 'lived experience ' how do you weave that in? The reality is that governments will have regard to consultations, but that's it.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's true that a consultation isn't a vote. It's more to highlight issues and draw on expertise.But there is a tricky issue in balancing individual responses and those from organisations representing members or working on issues. How do you weigh the views on a health issue of, say, the BMA against members of the public. Instinctively you would give weight to the BMA on the basis that they would be informed and also are a representative body. But with the current vogue for 'lived experience ' how do you weave that in? The reality is that governments will have regard to consultations, but that's it.

Having been involved in a few, I agree that it is a tricky process.

On those days when you're selected for further consultation, "it's a wonderful system"; I've had colleagues in the South saying how jealous they are of our accessible process, and of how much better it is than Westminster.

On those days when you're not, it's "how dare they ignore me? This is not democracy!"

With 17,000 responses, the process is even trickier.

[Stairway 2 7]

Having been involved in a few, I agree that it is a tricky process.

On those days when you're selected for further consultation, "it's a wonderful system"; I've had colleagues in the South saying how jealous they are of our accessible process, and of how much better it is than Westminster.

On those days when you're not, it's "how dare they ignore me? This is not democracy!"

With 17,000 responses, the process is even trickier.

If you look at the groups chosen and think it's ballance and fair your simply biased

[superfurryhibby]

If you look at the groups chosen and think it's ballance and fair your simply biased

From my perspective it’s hard to reconcile the disproportionate numbers of pro GRA groups and appearances before committees with the results of the open consultations.

Is this normal to have the discussion so heavily weighted in favour of one viewpoint when the broader consultations suggested a very different mood from the wider, ahem, stakeholder group?

[He's here!]

Nicola Sturgeon is revealing an appalling naivety over trans rights | Transgender | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2022/dec/04/observer-letters-nicola-sturgeon-trans-rights)

[He's here!]

Has Nicola Sturgeon finally woken up to the dangers of self-ID? (holyrood.com) (https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,has-nicola-sturgeon-finally-woken-up-to-the-dangers-of-selfid)

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/ChtyCommission/status/1598670350404960258?t=hoTSEE67oXES9K5Efkv9HA&s=19

I am sure the Scottish Government have used Mermaids and met with them about consulting on and influencing the GRA.

It feels like the GRA should be paused rather than rushing it through later this month.

How on earth could the GRA be in any way described as rushed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

How on earth could the GRA be in any way described as rushed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't think it's been rushed, but as others have pointed out the consultation process looks to have been heavily weighted in favour of groups known to be sympathetic to the proposed legislation. It's also a piece of legislation which, until more recently when the inherent dangers it poses have been more widely publicised, that many will have paid little heed to.

The UN intervention appears to have generated some further momentum among those alarmed by the bill:

https://twitter.com/mbmpolicy/status/1599741672753012736?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[archie]

How on earth could the GRA be in any way described as rushed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Parliamentary process has.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Parliamentary process has.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-analysis-responses-public-consultation-exercise/

How long should it take?