The Trans Rights Debate

[James310]

Does the EA have primacy on the bill?

Well that's the point of the S35, it should have but it looks like it strays into areas that impact the EA. The courts will decide.

[ronaldo7]

If the EA has primacy on the face of the bill, how can anyone currently with a GRC get into women's spaces if exemptions are in place?

[Bristolhibby]

You'd think so but some providers are going by the Haldene. You'd think a female refuge would be clearly protected as female only.

What about the trans women who are victims of rape and need refuge from an abusive partner?

J

[Stairway 2 7]

Is this not where the equality commission comes in with guidance?

Yes they give guidance. Each provider chooses how to interpret it and the gra themselves. It's muddy and businesses aren't lawyers so with Haldene they will often say trans women are women.

You'd think a clear cut case would be women's refuges or rape crisis. It seems most places are going with Haldene that trans women are literally women. You can understand the confusion companies face when even the government are confused over prisons

[Stairway 2 7]

What about the trans women who are victims of rape and need refuge from an abusive partner?

J

They should be given refuge the same as men need it. That should not be where women are. If there was a need I'd be all for a trans refuge. The sad fact is its men who sexualy assault, so women need safe female only spaces when they are at their most vulnerable

[CropleyWasGod]

If the EA has primacy on the face of the bill, how can anyone currently with a GRC get into women's spaces if exemptions are in place?

They can, as long as the owners or users of that space don't object.

[ronaldo7]

They can, as long as the owners or users of that space don't object.

So owners can have policies under the EA, which is on the face of the GRR bill to effectively keep people with a GRC out of women's spaces. Cheers.

[Just Alf]

Does the EA have primacy on the bill?It does, one of the (Labour?) amendments voted in to enable the bill get passed in the parliamentary vote was to confirm the EA has primacy.

It's why many think the UK Government (Tories ) are simply playing politics... if the new act already states EA has primacy in any unclear situation what's the actual issue with the new legislation? .... unless you.just don't like the whole idea of course.

[CropleyWasGod]

So owners can have policies under the EA, which is on the face of the GRR bill to effectively keep people with a GRC out of women's spaces. Cheers.

The exact wording was posted here about 50 pages back (possibly by me :greengrin).

[ronaldo7]

The exact wording was posted here about 50 pages back (possibly by me :greengrin).

Sorry G.

Must have missed it. I've only been stepping in and out of this thread, but when I heard the FM speak about it today, I wanted to confirm. 😂

[Stairway 2 7]

So owners can have policies under the EA, which is on the face of the GRR bill to effectively keep people with a GRC out of women's spaces. Cheers.

That's good on paper but when prisons, rape crisis and refuges are chosing to mix, you can see most are going with Haldene.

[147lothian]

Here is an example someone who transitioned as a teen then realized it was a mistake in California, the reason it is relevant is in light of the de-transitioner's who are currently bringing law suits against the Tavistock as there is no questions being asked about the trans teen social contagion. Teenagers can't possibly know the long term consequences of what they are doing to their bodies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZ4LIBHabA

[McSwanky]

Here is an example someone who transitioned as a teen then realized it was a mistake in California, the reason it is relevant is in light of the de-transitioner's who are currently bringing law suits against the Tavistock as there is no questions being asked about the trans teen social contagion. Teenagers can't possibly know the long term consequences of what they are doing to their bodies.

I'm no expert, but is the legislation not partly to stop this sort of thing happening?

So you are officially a man, but want to be a woman? Now you can be without having to undergo invasive surgery. Then later you realise you made a mistake, or indeed you're at a point in your life where you feel more comfortable 'transitioning back'? That's fine as well.

Like I say, I'm not anywhere near as close to the legislation as some clearly are on here, but to me the general gist of the legislation is in good faith.

I have school age kids, and there are a a significant number of kids at their schools who identify as a gender different to the one they were born with. And as far as I can see, they're completely accepted by their peers. That's massive progress from even 10 years ago. Maybe some need to stop quoting extreme examples to make a point, learn from the kids and accept that the world is changing.

I think we can all agree that the legislation isn't perfect, but legislation rarely is. And surely if there is a rise in violent crime against women in e.g. prisons, then the book will be swiftly opened and amended?

I'll probably be shouted down as being naive or anti-women, but I wish we didn't base all arguments around the worst case scenarios.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://archive.ph/o4ELb

Isla Bryson ‘almost certainly’ masquerading as trans, says Sturgeon

[He's here!]

https://archive.ph/o4ELb

Isla Bryson ‘almost certainly’ masquerading as trans, says Sturgeon

You know it's bad for Sturgeon when she gets made to look utterly daft by Douglas Ross of all people. Insisting that Bryson is neither man nor woman, just 'a rapist'...what the **** is she on about?! I almost felt pity for her stooge (Jenny Gilruth) on Question Time just now having to parrot the same line. Needless to say she was shot down in flames by the excellent Ella Whelan - and all but laughed off the panel by the studio audience.

[James310]

You know it's bad for Sturgeon when she gets made to look utterly daft by Douglas Ross of all people. Insisting that Bryson is neither man nor woman, just 'a rapist'...what the **** is she on about?! I almost felt pity for her stooge (Jenny Gilruth) on Question Time just now having to parrot the same line. Needless to say she was shot down in flames by the excellent Ella Whelan - and all but laughed off the panel by the studio audience.

Was Jenny Gilruth wearing Sturgeons Hibs away outfit? Looked very similar.

[archie]

It does, one of the (Labour?) amendments voted in to enable the bill get passed in the parliamentary vote was to confirm the EA has primacy.

It's why many think the UK Government (Tories ) are simply playing politics... if the new act already states EA has primacy in any unclear situation what's the actual issue with the new legislation? .... unless you.just don't like the whole idea of course.
There's a real legal question as to whether simply saying that makes any difference.

[StevieC]

“excellent Ella Whelan”

A nastier piece of work I’ve not seen on Question Time for a while. Pretty much said we should bring our children up properly so they don’t become trans/gay! 😮

Apart from being a nasty piece of work, also very rude and talking over others when it was their turn to reply.

Excellent you say? 🤔

[Santa Cruz]

Felt for India Willoughby on Question Time, it was like she was a lone voice. The woman in the audience who wasn't even having it with trans woman who had fully medically transitioned using female toilets was away with it, totally ignorant. How would she even be able to tell. :rolleyes:

[The Harp Awakes]

You know it's bad for Sturgeon when she gets made to look utterly daft by Douglas Ross of all people. Insisting that Bryson is neither man nor woman, just 'a rapist'...what the **** is she on about?! I almost felt pity for her stooge (Jenny Gilruth) on Question Time just now having to parrot the same line. Needless to say she was shot down in flames by the excellent Ella Whelan - and all but laughed off the panel by the studio audience.

She spoke like a 1970s homophobe. A real nasty piece of work. And you say excellent :rolleyes:

[147lothian]

There's a real legal question as to whether simply saying that makes any difference.

Jenny Gilruth kept calling Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson "The Individual" look at her response when asked if "The Individual" is a man or a woman, priceless.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODO0HpyWZMI

[Ozyhibby]

Here is an example someone who transitioned as a teen then realized it was a mistake in California, the reason it is relevant is in light of the de-transitioner's who are currently bringing law suits against the Tavistock as there is no questions being asked about the trans teen social contagion. Teenagers can't possibly know the long term consequences of what they are doing to their bodies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZ4LIBHabA

‘Fast track surgery’? Shouldn’t be a problem in the UK then. [emoji849]


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[Crunchie]

A nastier piece of work I’ve not seen on Question Time for a while. Pretty much said we should bring our children up properly so they don’t become trans/gay! 😮

Apart from being a nasty piece of work, also very rude and talking over others when it was their turn to reply.

Excellent you say? 🤔
The majority of the audience and I'd suggest the wider population would disagree with you. Nasty you say?

[James310]

Jenny Gilruth kept calling Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson "The Individual" look at her response when asked if "The Individual" is a man or a woman, priceless.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODO0HpyWZMI

Why won't she answer if 'The Individual" is man or a woman? If the answer is because they don't have enough information on them as suggested then can anyone explain how under self ID people get this information required to work out if someone is legitimate or not?

This is what happens when an ideology comes crashing into the real world. They need to go back and work through some of these issues again and come up with an answer that is perhaps a compromise that meets the majority of concerns on both sides.

[McSwanky]

The majority of the audience and I'd suggest the wider population would disagree with you. Nasty you say?It's base level debate, that is. Using an extreme example to demand a yes/no answer. If people stop to think for just a few seconds, they'll see that the wool is being pulled over their eyes by bigots likes her. The debate is way more complex than this.

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[He's here!]

Why won't she answer if 'The Individual" is man or a woman? If the answer is because they don't have enough information on them as suggested then can anyone explain how under self ID people get this information required to work out if someone is legitimate or not?

This is what happens when an ideology comes crashing into the real world. They need to go back and work through some of these issues again and come up with an answer that is perhaps a compromise that meets the majority of concerns on both sides.

Indeed. When the majority of a Glasgow Question Time audience are applauding a Conservative MP calling for a rethink on the legislation you know Sturgeon has got something wrong.

[He's here!]

It's base level debate, that is. Using an extreme example to demand a yes/no answer. If people stop to think for just a few seconds, they'll see that the wool is being pulled over their eyes by bigots likes her. The debate is way more complex than this.

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What was 'bigoted' about highlighting the lunacy of being unable to define whether Bryson is a man or a woman? She was only articulating majority public opinion.

[He's here!]

Felt for India Willoughby on Question Time, it was like she was a lone voice. The woman in the audience who wasn't even having it with trans woman who had fully medically transitioned using female toilets was away with it, totally ignorant. How would she even be able to tell. :rolleyes:

The reason for the tumbleweed following most of Willoughby's comments was that she kept trying to frame the debate around Bryson/prisons and the SG legislation as anti-trans when for the vast majority that's not the case. The erosion of women's rights - and indeed the erosion of 'woman' as a biological concept - is what concerns most.

[ronaldo7]

Was Jenny Gilruth wearing Sturgeons Hibs away outfit? Looked very similar.

Checking out what women are wearing now. 😓

[Ozyhibby]

Indeed. When the majority of a Glasgow Question Time audience are applauding a Conservative MP calling for a rethink on the legislation you know Sturgeon has got something wrong.

Yes, you’ll never get a pro unionist question time audience. [emoji849][emoji23]


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[James310]

Checking out what women are wearing now. 😓

Lol, you are so desperate to score points against me you pick this? If I remember correctly it was mentioned numerous times on here during the Covid briefings when Sturgeon wore a very similar Hibs looking outfit.

[He's here!]

Yes, you’ll never get a pro unionist question time audience. [emoji849][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes that must have been the reason they didn't have any truck with a multiple rapist pretending to be a woman.

[Crunchie]

It's base level debate, that is. Using an extreme example to demand a yes/no answer. If people stop to think for just a few seconds, they'll see that the wool is being pulled over their eyes by bigots likes her. The debate is way more complex than this.

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk
The only person using extreme examples was India, I suggest you're the one having the wool pulled over your eyes.

[Crunchie]

Lol, you are so desperate to score points against me you pick this? If I remember correctly it was mentioned numerous times on here during the Covid briefings when Sturgeon wore a very similar Hibs looking outfit.
If you're not of a left leaning opinion you have to be very careful how you word/say something on here and in general.

[ronaldo7]

Lol, you are so desperate to score points against me you pick this? If I remember correctly it was mentioned numerous times on here during the Covid briefings when Sturgeon wore a very similar Hibs looking outfit.

Not point scoring at all. Just seeing your post for what it is.

Any comment on the mens clothes?

[James310]

Not point scoring at all. Just seeing your post for what it is.

Any comment on the mens clothes?

Yes they all looked very smart. Funny I don't remember you saying anything when the any other poster commented on the Hibs resemblance before or being critical of posters when attacking Liz Truss for her looks etc. I will make a special point of checking out if you criticise other posters next time they comment on a female politician. 👍

Did I imagine the previous comments from various posters about Sturgeon wearing an outfit that looked like the Hibs away top? Can you remember?

[ronaldo7]

Yes they all looked very smart. Funny I don't remember you saying anything when the any other poster commented on the Hibs resemblance before or being critical of posters when attacking Liz Truss for her looks etc. I will make a special point of checking out if you criticise other posters next time they comment on a female politician. 👍

Did I imagine the previous comments from various posters about Sturgeon wearing an outfit that looked like the Hibs away top? Can you remember?

So the men looked smart but the women are wearing someone else's clothes.

Gotcha.

[James310]

So the men looked smart but the women are wearing someone else's clothes.

Gotcha.

I am just glad you are defending woman, well done. You seemed to be hesitant to offer an opinion before. Do you think the rapist is a man or a woman? That's getting us right back on track isn't it. Do you agree with Keith Brown who says she is a woman or Nicola Sturgeon who doesn't seem to know?

[147lothian]

It's base level debate, that is. Using an extreme example to demand a yes/no answer. If people stop to think for just a few seconds, they'll see that the wool is being pulled over their eyes by bigots likes her. The debate is way more complex than this.

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

Why does it have to be complex? A rapist can only be a man and everyone knows that. The nonsense of gender identity politics was exposed by calling a rapist "The Individual", and trying to make it complex. It's not bigoted to asks if "The Individual" is a man or a woman, human beings can only be one or the other, it exposed how Gender Identity politics ties people in knots, and all of the audience could see that. It seems like your using words like bigot because you know the person you were supporting lost the argument in-front of a nation wide audience.

[Crunchie]

Yes they all looked very smart. Funny I don't remember you saying anything when the any other poster commented on the Hibs resemblance before or being critical of posters when attacking Liz Truss for her looks etc. I will make a special point of checking out if you criticise other posters next time they comment on a female politician. 👍

Did I imagine the previous comments from various posters about Sturgeon wearing an outfit that looked like the Hibs away top? Can you remember?
His comments sum up what the extreme left are all about, pretty pathetic really. FWIW I think her outfit was eye catching for the colour too :aok:

[ronaldo7]

I am just glad you are defending woman, well done. You seemed to be hesitant to offer an opinion before. Do you think the rapist is a man or a woman? That's getting us right back on track isn't it. Do you agree with Keith Brown who says she is a woman or Nicola Sturgeon who doesn't seem to know?

Im glad you're glad. Good for you. 😊

Given the two protagonists on QT last night at different ends of the spectrum on this threads content, I'd say, if I was to go back in time, one of them would have had a sign with, no blacks, Irish, or dogs in their window. The other one not so much.

You choose which is which.

[He's here!]

Why does it have to be complex? A rapist can only be a man and everyone knows that. The nonsense of gender identity politics was exposed by calling a rapist "The Individual", and trying to make it complex. It's not bigoted to asks if "The Individual" is a man or a woman, human beings can only be one or the other, it exposed how Gender Identity politics ties people in knots, and all of the audience could see that. It seems like your using words like bigot because you know the person you were supporting lost the argument in-front of a nation wide audience.

Anyone claiming there's 'nuance' to the Bryson case is inevitably going to be left looking daft.

[James310]

Im glad you're glad. Good for you. 😊

Given the two protagonists on QT last night at different ends of the spectrum on this threads content, I'd say, if I was to go back in time, one of them would have had a sign with, no blacks, Irish, or dogs in their window. The other one not so much.

You choose which is which.

Sorry but I asked you what you think, do you think the rapist is a man or a woman?

Like you said to me last night, you have not answered the question.

[McSwanky]

Why does it have to be complex? A rapist can only be a man and everyone knows that. The nonsense of gender identity politics was exposed by calling a rapist "The Individual", and trying to make it complex. It's not bigoted to asks if "The Individual" is a man or a woman, human beings can only be one or the other, it exposed how Gender Identity politics ties people in knots, and all of the audience could see that. It seems like your using words like bigot because you know the person you were supporting lost the argument in-front of a nation wide audience.

It's complex because it's a way bigger issue than just the prisons issue. But folks like Douglas Ross and Ella Whelan are successfully diverting the debate to be ALL about side issues like this.

I'd like to think most people agree that people should be allwed to live the life they want without fear of discrimination or worse, and for me that's what this legislation is about. As I said before, it's not perfect - and will no doubt be subject to more amendment and debate in the future to make it work for everyone. But the intentions are hopefully something people can get behind rather than this constant back and forth around the prisons issue - which existed before this legislation was a thing.

As for the coments earlier about 'articulating majority public opinion' - if we always went with majority public opinion, we'd be in an even worse state than we already are in this country. Especially with the nick of our press. There's nothing wrong with doing the right thing despite majority public opinion.

[CropleyWasGod]

Why does it have to be complex? A rapist can only be a man and everyone knows that. The nonsense of gender identity politics was exposed by calling a rapist "The Individual", and trying to make it complex. It's not bigoted to asks if "The Individual" is a man or a woman, human beings can only be one or the other, it exposed how Gender Identity politics ties people in knots, and all of the audience could see that. It seems like your using words like bigot because you know the person you were supporting lost the argument in-front of a nation wide audience.

That's not true.

Intersex people are both and neither, and a biological reality . They are the I in LGBTQIA.

This might help:-

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/10/its-intersex-awareness-day-here-are-5-myths-we-need-to-shatter/

[ronaldo7]

Sorry but I asked you what you think, do you think the rapist is a man or a woman?

Like you said to me last night, you have not answered the question.

I've no idea at what stage of transitioning the rapist is.

However when he raped those women he was a man.

Do you know what stage of transitioning the rapist is currently at?

[James310]

I've no idea at what stage of transitioning the rapist is.

However when he raped those women he was a man.

Do you know what stage of transitioning the rapist is currently at?

But the trans ideology that the SG support says a man is a woman if they say so, this rapist says they are woman so aren't you being transphobic by not saying he is a woman? Why does it matter where they are on their journey, if they say they are a woman then they are a woman?

You don't need to transition or take hormones etc, you are just a woman because you say you are. That's the whole point of self ID.

So if the GRA was passed you are comfortable with men just saying they are women because they say they are, doesn't sound like you are if you need to now where they are in their transition journey.

See this is what happens, people tie themselves in knots as you have shown.

[ronaldo7]

But the trans ideology that the SG support says a man is a woman if they say so, this rapist says they are woman so aren't you being transphobic by not saying he is a woman? Why does it matter where they are on their journey, if they say they are a woman then they are a woman?

You don't need to transition or take hormones etc, you are just a woman because you say you are. That's the whole point of self ID.

So if the GRA was passed you are comfortable with men just saying they are women because they say they are, doesn't sound like you are if you need to now where they are in their transition journey.

See this is what happens, people tie themselves in knots as you have shown.

I've given you the answer you asked for as the law currently stands.

The rest of your hypotheticals are just that. Hypothetical.

[He's here!]

I've no idea at what stage of transitioning the rapist is.

However when he raped those women he was a man.

Do you know what stage of transitioning the rapist is currently at?

Claimed at the trial to be taking hormones and now wanting surgery but the reality is that his 'transitioning' extends only to putting on a wig, make-up and a pink jacket. Even Sturgeon was forced to concede he's a fake.

[James310]

I've given you the answer you asked for as the law currently stands.

The rest of your hypotheticals are just that. Hypothetical.

You are actually breaking the SNPs own code of conduct on transphobia. It states:

Transphobia may manifest in a number of ways, including, but not limited to:

"using phrases or language to suggest [someone’s] gender identity is not valid"

If the rapist says she is a woman then she is a woman according to the SNP code of conduct. Keith Brown Deputy Leader was clear, the rapist is a woman when he was asked. You are questioning on what stage on their journey this person is and not accepting they are a woman. Therefore breaking the rule above suggesting someone's gender identity is not valid as you wanted to know if they were taking hormones or has surgery etc. Only then could you decide if the person was a woman.

The whole point of self ID is someone is a woman if they say they are, nothing to do with where they are on a transition journey.

Under the SNPs code you would be transphobic, but I reckon you aren't, you probably like most of us want a solution that meets the needs of the majority on both sides.

When ideology crashes into the real world. It ties people in knots.

[archie]

This is an interesting thread from an advocate on the issues around the rapist case, FM answer yesterday and self ID.

https://twitter.com/Broonjunior/status/1621249053416689666

[AugustaHibs]

Sturgeon has lost the plot.

So now the snp government can decide your gender.

Which one is it nicky?!?

[The Harp Awakes]

You are actually breaking the SNPs own code of conduct on transphobia. It states:

Transphobia may manifest in a number of ways, including, but not limited to:

"using phrases or language to suggest [someone’s] gender identity is not valid"

If the rapist says she is a woman then she is a woman according to the SNP code of conduct. Keith Brown Deputy Leader was clear, the rapist is a woman when he was asked. You are questioning on what stage on their journey this person is and not accepting they are a woman. Therefore breaking the rule above suggesting someone's gender identity is not valid as you wanted to know if they were taking hormones or has surgery etc. Only then could you decide if the person was a woman.

The whole point of self ID is someone is a woman if they say they are, nothing to do with where they are on a transition journey.

Under the SNPs code you would be transphobic, but I reckon you aren't, you probably like most of us want a solution that meets the needs of the majority on both sides.

When ideology crashes into the real world. It ties people in knots.

Looking through your recent posts on the subject, there seems to be quite a lot of bluster and emotion in them, mixed with your usual attempts at trying to make out that everything which happens in this world is the SNP's fault.

The GRR Bill had cross party support in Holyrood and whether you agree with its passing or not, the subject itself is apolitical.

What is political, is the Westminster Government blocking the Bill, which had gone through years of scrutiny. They have had ample time to make comment on the Bill, but chose the nuclear option after it was passed.

I found Ms Gilruth's claim on QT last night telling, i.e, that the Westminster Government, when pressed by the SG during recent conversations to outline what they think needs to be changed in the Bill, refused to say. That to me suggests that the blocking is all about putting Holyrood in their place rather than any interest in improving the content.

[The Harp Awakes]

Sturgeon has lost the plot.

So now the snp government can decide your gender.

Which one is it nicky?!?

Did you read that in the Daily Mail or Express?

Also interesting how you, those facsist rags and tory mouthpieces like the BBC always refer to Scotland's first minister by her surname v nice wee Rishi or Sir Keir.

[James310]

Looking through your recent posts on the subject, there seems to be quite a lot of bluster and emotion in them, mixed with your usual attempts at trying to make out that everything which happens in this world is the SNP's fault.

The GRR Bill had cross party support in Holyrood and whether you agree with its passing or not, the subject itself is apolitical.

What is political, is the Westminster Government blocking the Bill, which had gone through years of scrutiny. They have had ample time to make comment on the Bill, but chose the nuclear option after it was passed.

I found Ms Gilruth's claim on QT last night telling, i.e, that the Westminster Government, when pressed by the SG during recent conversations to outline what they think needs to be changed in the Bill, refused to say. That to me suggests that the blocking is all about putting Holyrood in their place rather than any interest in improving the content.

What's your view them? Is the rapist a man or a woman?

[ronaldo7]

You are actually breaking the SNPs own code of conduct on transphobia. It states:

Transphobia may manifest in a number of ways, including, but not limited to:

"using phrases or language to suggest [someone’s] gender identity is not valid"

If the rapist says she is a woman then she is a woman according to the SNP code of conduct. Keith Brown Deputy Leader was clear, the rapist is a woman when he was asked. You are questioning on what stage on their journey this person is and not accepting they are a woman. Therefore breaking the rule above suggesting someone's gender identity is not valid as you wanted to know if they were taking hormones or has surgery etc. Only then could you decide if the person was a woman.

The whole point of self ID is someone is a woman if they say they are, nothing to do with where they are on a transition journey.

Under the SNPs code you would be transphobic, but I reckon you aren't, you probably like most of us want a solution that meets the needs of the majority on both sides.

When ideology crashes into the real world. It ties people in knots.

My view that he was a man when he raped is a view held in many parties across the spectrum, and within the SNP.

Contrary to popular unionist belief, we are allowed to have a different view on such topics.

Watching QT last night it's all become very noisy from some who don't want to listen. The abuse India Willoughby has taken this morning is well out of order.

[archie]

That's not true.

Intersex people are both and neither, and a biological reality . They are the I in LGBTQIA.

This might help:-

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/10/its-intersex-awareness-day-here-are-5-myths-we-need-to-shatter/

As might this https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/12/06/once-again-the-binary-nature-of-biological-sex-colin-wright-and-sean-carroll/

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/esqueer_/status/1620757034080821248?s=46&t=vxnj4Qe7zkfKy3acNzA_zw

Quite a coalition getting built.


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[James310]

My view that he was a man when he raped is a view held in many parties across the spectrum, and within the SNP.

Contrary to popular unionist belief, we are allowed to have a different view on such topics.

Watching QT last night it's all become very noisy from some who don't want to listen. The abuse India Willoughby has taken this morning is well out of order.

I am not asking what he was when he raped, of course he was a man as in law only a man can commit rape.

I am asking you what do you believe "the individual" is now, a woman or a man?

[archie]

My view that he was a man when he raped is a view held in many parties across the spectrum, and within the SNP.

Contrary to popular unionist belief, we are allowed to have a different view on such topics.

Watching QT last night it's all become very noisy from some who don't want to listen. The abuse India Willoughby has taken this morning is well out of order.

I know you are determined to make this about 'unionists' but do you acknowledge that many 'nationalists' have real issues with the legislation?

[ronaldo7]

I know you are determined to make this about 'unionists' but do you acknowledge that many 'nationalists' have real issues with the legislation?

Yes.

[ronaldo7]

I am not asking what he was when he raped, of course he was a man as in law only a man can commit rape.

I am asking you what do you believe "the individual" is now, a woman or a man?

I already said I've no idea where he/she is in their transitioning under the current UK law. Do they have a GRC? Have they been medically assessed?

[James310]

I already said I've no idea where he/she is in their transitioning under the current UK law. Do they have a GRC? Have they been medically assessed?

But by asking these questions you are rejecting the idea a man is a woman if they say they are, that's the whole point of self ID. You want more information and details on this person before you can make a judgment, the very thing that is being abolished under self ID.

By not agreeing this individual is a woman you would be transphobic under the SNP code of conduct.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1363858296524931077?t=wYjewvohI9OibXz8nZCzgw&s=19


I know your very likely not, but you meet that definition.

It's a mess and both governments need to sort it out.

[ronaldo7]

But by asking these questions you are rejecting the idea a man is a woman if they say they are, that's the whole point of self ID. You want more information and details on this person before you can make a judgment, the very thing that is being abolished under self ID.

By not agreeing this individual is a woman you would be transphobic under the SNP code of conduct.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1363858296524931077?t=wYjewvohI9OibXz8nZCzgw&s=19


I know your very likely not, but you meet that definition.

It's a mess and both governments need to sort it out.

Im asking you the questions. If you can't answer, that's fine.

[James310]

Im asking you the questions. If you can't answer, that's fine.

I have no idea about his private medical history. Why does that matter? Why do you want his private medical history, what judgment would it help you make exactly?

Just leave it if you like, it's tying you in knots.

[archie]

https://twitter.com/esqueer_/status/1620757034080821248?s=46&t=vxnj4Qe7zkfKy3acNzA_zw

Quite a coalition getting built.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's been the full gamut today. Anyone raising questions is a racist, homophobe, transphobe, unionist, anti-Irish, living in the 1970s, emotional, blustering and now a Trumpist. Any I've missed?

[archie]

I already said I've no idea where he/she is in their transitioning under the current UK law. Do they have a GRC? Have they been medically assessed?Under the SG legislation none of that would matter. The distinction FM tried to draw yesterday would be largely meaningless.

[ronaldo7]

I have no idea about his private medical history. Why does that matter? Why do you want his private medical history, what judgment would it help you make exactly?

Just leave it if you like, it's tying you in knots.

I'm genuinely trying to find out how far they've come in their transitioning. I was told this morning that he's had some hormone treatment, but as you don't know, I cant then say if he's now transitioned fully. I'll have to take the SPS word for it, that he's still a man.

[James310]

I'm genuinely trying to find out how far they've come in their transitioning. I was told this morning that he's had some hormone treatment, but as you don't know, I cant then say if he's now transitioned fully. I'll have to take the SPS word for it, that he's still a man.

Whether they have had surgery or hormones makes no difference. Again the SNP Code of Conduct.

"Trans people may describe themselves in a variety of terms, and do not need to have undergone any medical or social transition to be described as trans"

I am not sure why you need medical information?

The SPS never said he was a man. Keith Brown said she was a woman.

It's ok to say actually maybe this isn't the best piece of legislation.

[archie]

I'm no expert, but is the legislation not partly to stop this sort of thing happening?

So you are officially a man, but want to be a woman? Now you can be without having to undergo invasive surgery. Then later you realise you made a mistake, or indeed you're at a point in your life where you feel more comfortable 'transitioning back'? That's fine as well.

Like I say, I'm not anywhere near as close to the legislation as some clearly are on here, but to me the general gist of the legislation is in good faith.

I have school age kids, and there are a a significant number of kids at their schools who identify as a gender different to the one they were born with. And as far as I can see, they're completely accepted by their peers. That's massive progress from even 10 years ago. Maybe some need to stop quoting extreme examples to make a point, learn from the kids and accept that the world is changing.

I think we can all agree that the legislation isn't perfect, but legislation rarely is. And surely if there is a rise in violent crime against women in e.g. prisons, then the book will be swiftly opened and amended?

I'll probably be shouted down as being naive or anti-women, but I wish we didn't base all arguments around the worst case scenarios.
I'm not sure transitioning back is a straightforward as you think under the Scottish legislation. It's a permanent switch https://www.gov.scot/news/gender-recognition-reform-bill-passed/

[WeeRussell]

I know you are determined to make this about 'unionists' but do you acknowledge that many 'nationalists' have real issues with the legislation?

I'm certain members and supporters of all parties will have genuine issues with it, as is the case with the majority of legislation.

I'm also certain a significant number of people (and posters) would not be raising their 'concerns' if this wasn't so strongly tied to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP.

[ronaldo7]

Whether they have had surgery or hormones makes no difference. Again the SNP Code of Conduct.

"Trans people may describe themselves in a variety of terms, and do not need to have undergone any medical or social transition to be described as trans"

I am not sure why you need medical information?

The SPS never said he was a man. Keith Brown said she was a woman.

It's ok to say actually maybe this isn't the best piece of legislation.

Joanna cherry will be in trouble, or maybe she just has a different view. The SPS, on the other hand will be in trouble for sending a woman into Saughton.

[archie]

I'm certain members and supporters of all parties will have genuine issues with it, as is the case with the majority of legislation.

I'm also certain a significant number of people (and posters) would not be raising their 'concerns' if this wasn't so strongly tied to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP.
That might be true, but it's not my motivation. I am sure that we wouldn't be getting the defend at all costs arguments from SNP supporters either.

[The Harp Awakes]

It's been the full gamut today. Anyone raising questions is a racist, homophobe, transphobe, unionist, anti-Irish, living in the 1970s, emotional, blustering and now a Trumpist. Any I've missed?

Aye, SNPphobes.

[Kato]

It's been the full gamut today. Anyone raising questions is a racist, homophobe, transphobe, unionist, anti-Irish, living in the 1970s, emotional, blustering and now a Trumpist. Any I've missed?Why is it do you think that people like Trump and Putin publicly proclaim themselves as trans-phobes.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[archie]

Joanna cherry will be in trouble, or maybe she just has a different view. The SPS, on the other hand will be in trouble for sending a woman into Saughton.Why Joanna Cherry? It was FM that questioned their trans status.

[archie]

Aye, SNPphobes.
Is Ash Regan an SNP phone?

[ronaldo7]

Is Ash Regan an SNP phone?

That doesn't ring a bell. 🔔

[Ozyhibby]

Is Ash Regan an SNP phone?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230203/ce26349048d3fe37edc979d577c277bf.jpg


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[WeeRussell]

A nastier piece of work I’ve not seen on Question Time for a while. Pretty much said we should bring our children up properly so they don’t become trans/gay! 😮

Apart from being a nasty piece of work, also very rude and talking over others when it was their turn to reply.

Excellent you say? 🤔

I fell asleep before QT last night - will probably catch the later version in a few days. I did wake up to a couple of messages suggesting there had been the token shouty, bigoted dinosaur on the panel though. And just viewing a couple of 'highlights' now.

Must say I am utterly shocked to learn which of our regular HG posters thought her performance was brilliant. As long as someone's putting "Sturgeon" in her place though eh.

[James310]

Joanna cherry will be in trouble, or maybe she just has a different view. The SPS, on the other hand will be in trouble for sending a woman into Saughton.

Maybe that explains the death and rape threat's from SNP members she gets? And all the SNP members who wanted her thrown out the party?

The FM questioned the status of the individual yesterday at FMQ, like you she is going against the partys own code of conduct. If someone says they are a woman they are a woman, if you question it you are transphobic.

[archie]

Why is it do you think that people like Trump and Putin publicly proclaim themselves as trans-phobes.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

They are exploiting the trans issue because they can see a political opportunity. For Putin it allows him to portray himself as a defender of Russian values against a degenerate West. Russia is very conservative socially, so this plays well. For Trump it meets a number of objectives. It aligns with the socially conservative people in the US. But it also gives him an in with people who have concerns, but are told their views are not valid. For me one of the biggest tactical issues with gender reform was the bludgeoning of opposition and the smearing of anyone with any concerns. That allows the likes of Trump to fill that space.

[The Harp Awakes]

What's your view them? Is the rapist a man or a woman?

I'm no expert on the subject of equality law, but I think under current legislation (not the proposed Bill or future law), a person who wants to change their gender, needs to have applied for and be in possession of a Gender Reform Certificate (to have their new gender affirmed).

In the case of the convicted rapist, I don't know if they are in possession of a GRC or not. If they have one, then I'd say the person is a woman and if they don't, then the person is a man.

[archie]

I fell asleep before QT last night - will probably catch the later version in a few days. I did wake up to a couple of messages suggesting there had been the token shouty, bigoted dinosaur on the panel though. And just viewing a couple of 'highlights' now.

Must say I am utterly shocked to learn which of our regular HG posters thought her performance was brilliant. As long as someone's putting "Sturgeon" in her place though eh.
I don't particularly care for India Whilloughby, but I think that's harsh.

[Ozyhibby]

They are exploiting the trans issue because they can see a political opportunity. For Putin it allows him to portray himself as a defender of Russian values against a degenerate West. Russia is very conservative socially, so this plays well. For Trump it meets a number of objectives. It aligns with the socially conservative people in the US. But it also gives him an in with people who have concerns, but are told their views are not valid. For me one of the biggest tactical issues with gender reform was the bludgeoning of opposition and the smearing of anyone with any concerns. That allows the likes of Trump to fill that space.

The right certainly seem willing to jump into this issue with glee.


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[McSwanky]

I don't particularly care for India Whilloughby, but I think that's harsh.

I see what you've done there, very clever.

[James310]

I'm no expert on the subject of equality law, but I think under current legislation (not the proposed Bill or future law), a person who wants to change their gender, needs to have applied for and be in possession of a Gender Reform Certificate (to have their new gender affirmed).

In the case of the convicted rapist, I don't know if they are in possession of a GRC or not. If they have one, then I'd say the person is a woman and if they don't, then the person is a man.

So you also don't buy into the theory if a man says they are a woman they are a woman and can self ID?

It's quite interesting that when you actually get down to the detail very few people seem to support the SG plans for self ID. Even it seems our most hardened SNP supporters on here.

It's not surprising though as that seems to be the majority position.

[He's here!]

It's complex because it's a way bigger issue than just the prisons issue. But folks like Douglas Ross and Ella Whelan are successfully diverting the debate to be ALL about side issues like this.

I'd like to think most people agree that people should be allwed to live the life they want without fear of discrimination or worse, and for me that's what this legislation is about. As I said before, it's not perfect - and will no doubt be subject to more amendment and debate in the future to make it work for everyone. But the intentions are hopefully something people can get behind rather than this constant back and forth around the prisons issue - which existed before this legislation was a thing.

As for the coments earlier about 'articulating majority public opinion' - if we always went with majority public opinion, we'd be in an even worse state than we already are in this country. Especially with the nick of our press. There's nothing wrong with doing the right thing despite majority public opinion.

That would all be very well if the SG were doing the right thing. The reason, however, that there's such fervent public opposition to the legislation is because it's doing the wrong thing (diminishing women's rights).

[archie]

The right certainly seem willing to jump into this issue with glee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To a point. There's a lot of right wingers support this. Crispan Blunt for example. Penny Mordaunt too. But it is a right wing opportunity to exploit elitist politicians ignoring those with differing views. Apparently Iran is supportive of transition as it gives a route out for gays, who are detested. So strange bedfellows.

[The Harp Awakes]

So you also don't buy into the theory if a man says they are a woman they are a woman and can self ID?

It's quite interesting that when you actually get down to the detail very few people seem to support the SG plans for self ID. Even it seems our most hardened SNP supporters on here.

It's not surprising though as that seems to be the majority position.

You asked me a here and now question, and I gave you a here and now answer, which you don't seem to be disagreeing with.

You're now asking me a different, hypothetical question on self-certification in a world where the GRR became law. In response, I'd support that legislation, as many transgender people presently struggle to have their gender legally recognised. They are a small, vulnerable group of people who are regularly discriminated against.

Self-certification of gender has been in operation in Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Norway, Malta, Luxembourg, etc, etc and it appears to be operating effectively. Why would it be any different in Scotland?

[James310]

You asked me a here and now question, and I gave you a here and now answer, which you don't seem to be disagreeing with.

You're now asking me a different, hypothetical question on self-certification in a world where the GRR became law. In response, I'd support that legislation, as many transgender people presently struggle to have their gender legally recognised. They are a small, vulnerable group of people who are regularly discriminated against.

Self-certification of gender has been in operation in Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Norway, Malta, Luxembourg, etc, etc and it appears to be operating effectively. Why would it be any different in Scotland?

So today you don't believe a man is a woman if they say they are, but if the law changed tomorrow and the GRA was enacted you would believe a man is a woman because they said they are? Is that a fair summary of your position?

[ronaldo7]

I don't particularly care for India Whilloughby, but I think that's harsh.

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1621520127270465537

:aok:

[WeeRussell]

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1621520127270465537

:aok:

Good on her.

[archie]

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1621520127270465537

:aok:

This India Willoughby? https://www.womanandhome.com/life/news-entertainment/india-willoughby-this-morning-migrants-channel-comments-371025/

[ronaldo7]

This India Willoughby? https://www.womanandhome.com/life/news-entertainment/india-willoughby-this-morning-migrants-channel-comments-371025/

Try and stay on the subject matter or you might find our posts deleted. :aok:

[James310]

This India Willoughby? https://www.womanandhome.com/life/news-entertainment/india-willoughby-this-morning-migrants-channel-comments-371025/

When asked her opinion on the situation, India exclaimed, "Thank God for Nigel Farage! I’ll say it. The fact the French are escorting them over is awful. We’ve got Brexit and we’re leaving the EU."

[ronaldo7]

When asked her opinion on the situation, India exclaimed, "Thank God for Nigel Farage! I’ll say it. The fact the French are escorting them over is awful. We’ve got Brexit and we’re leaving the EU."

What's this got to do with the thread subject?

[AugustaHibs]

Did you read that in the Daily Mail or Express?

Also interesting how you, those facsist rags and tory mouthpieces like the BBC always refer to Scotland's first minister by her surname v nice wee Rishi or Sir Keir.

How me?

sunak and starmer are both ****. I’ve only ever voted for SNP and voted yes in 2014.

The last few years have opened my eyes and I don’t really support any political party.

All useless self obsessed *****.

[James310]

What's this got to do with the thread subject?

We were talking about India Willoughby a trans woman who was on QT last night. You even posted one of her tweets. Happy to move on.

[archie]

Try and stay on the subject matter or you might find our posts deleted. :aok:

Don't you think it's material highlight views of someone you are bigging up?

[ronaldo7]

We were talking about India Willoughby a trans woman who was on QT last night. You even posted one of her tweets. Happy to move on.

My post was of her speaking about her time on QT regarding the thread issue. Nothing to do with whatever else she's been up to. If you want to post it on the Brexit thread feel free. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

Don't you think it's material highlight views of someone you are bigging up?

:faf:

[Kato]

When asked her opinion on the situation, India exclaimed, "Thank God for Nigel Farage! I’ll say it. The fact the French are escorting them over is awful. We’ve got Brexit and we’re leaving the EU."

Wow, it's almost like humans have a broad range of opinions.

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[Hibrandenburg]

It's been the full gamut today. Anyone raising questions is a racist, homophobe, transphobe, unionist, anti-Irish, living in the 1970s, emotional, blustering and now a Trumpist. Any I've missed?

Fundamentalist religious nutter?

[The Harp Awakes]

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1621520127270465537

:aok:

Pleased to hear.

I thought she conducted herself admirably on QT and clearly she is a very strong person. Some of the discussion and contributions were toxic and she showed great restraint.

[James310]

Wow, it's almost like humans have a broad range of opinions.

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Couldn't agree more, it's dangerous to label them as bigots, homophobic, transphobic etc just because they do. Great point.

[archie]

Wow, it's almost like humans have a broad range of opinions.

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Or that you're prepared to defend the indefensible.

[archie]

Fundamentalist religious nutter?

I've seen bigot and dinosaur too

[ronaldo7]

Pleased to hear.

I thought she conducted herself admirably on QT and clearly she is a very strong person. Some of the discussion and contributions were toxic and she showed great restraint.

Someone from the QT Audience last night. Posted without comment.

AS a 29-year-old, straight man brought up on the west coast of Scotland without any transgender friends, I would never claim to be the most enlightened trans ally. However, as a member of the "woke" generation, I know the smell of bigotry.

I was among 150 audience members packed into Strathclyde University for the filming of BBC Question Time on February 2. Considering the current media storm on the Gender Recognition Act (GRA), coupled with the fact that the panel featured trans broadcaster India Willoughby and the "free-speech" journalist Ella Whelan of Spiked, there was a recognition among the audience that the subject would be one of the main talking points.

How the conversation went
The first question lasted about 10 minutes before we moved on to the inevitable subject of the GRA, transgender women and the Scottish Prison Service. Framed through the lens of "should safeguarding for women’s only spaces be reviewed?", the debate began with a measured, if predictable, response from the SNP’s Jenny Gilruth on the political machinations of the UK Government’s decision to block the legislation.

India Willoughby was then invited to respond to the question. Her articulate response featured statistics about predatory transgender people, the procedures in the Scottish prison system and the emotional impact that this debate has had on her personally. During her response, there was a notable shift in body language from Ella Whelan and many of the older men and women in the audience. Eye-rolling, smirking and audible sighs laid the foundation for what, for the next 25 minutes, became a poisonous atmosphere.

Ella Whelan followed, commencing into a nasty diatribe about biological sex and how women are the victims among all of this. This evoked a back-and-forth between the two panellists, with Whelan becoming increasingly condescending in her tone and body language, using the issue of this prisoner to suggest that trans people are "pretending they’re something they’re not".

How the audience reacted
Willoughby’s attempts to bring some reason into the debate were met with mocking shouts across the panel from Whelan and rapturous applause and hoots from a number of audience members. Bruce opened up the subject to the audience where Whelan’s supporters were represented in one particularly odious exchange between Willoughby and an older woman who had the contempt to look her directly in the eye and effectively state "you are still a man".

I couldn’t believe that this woman could morally justify such disdain to another human being, or that the panel chair simply allowed it to go unchallenged. All this happened among the continuous backing from particular gammon-coloured audience members.

In the aftermath of the filming, Willoughby referred on Twitter to the experience using the term "lynch mob" which I felt wasn’t far from the truth. In my own group chat, I could only define the atmosphere through comparison. If it had been an ethnic minority or gay person sitting in Willoughby’s chair, you would have been genuinely lost for words. I couldn’t speak, but I could certainly smell bigotry in the room.

[archie]

Someone from the QT Audience last night.

AS a 29-year-old, straight man brought up on the west coast of Scotland without any transgender friends, I would never claim to be the most enlightened trans ally. However, as a member of the "woke" generation, I know the smell of bigotry.

I was among 150 audience members packed into Strathclyde University for the filming of BBC Question Time on February 2. Considering the current media storm on the Gender Recognition Act (GRA), coupled with the fact that the panel featured trans broadcaster India Willoughby and the "free-speech" journalist Ella Whelan of Spiked, there was a recognition among the audience that the subject would be one of the main talking points.

How the conversation went
The first question lasted about 10 minutes before we moved on to the inevitable subject of the GRA, transgender women and the Scottish Prison Service. Framed through the lens of "should safeguarding for women’s only spaces be reviewed?", the debate began with a measured, if predictable, response from the SNP’s Jenny Gilruth on the political machinations of the UK Government’s decision to block the legislation.

India Willoughby was then invited to respond to the question. Her articulate response featured statistics about predatory transgender people, the procedures in the Scottish prison system and the emotional impact that this debate has had on her personally. During her response, there was a notable shift in body language from Ella Whelan and many of the older men and women in the audience. Eye-rolling, smirking and audible sighs laid the foundation for what, for the next 25 minutes, became a poisonous atmosphere.

Ella Whelan followed, commencing into a nasty diatribe about biological sex and how women are the victims among all of this. This evoked a back-and-forth between the two panellists, with Whelan becoming increasingly condescending in her tone and body language, using the issue of this prisoner to suggest that trans people are "pretending they’re something they’re not".

How the audience reacted
Willoughby’s attempts to bring some reason into the debate were met with mocking shouts across the panel from Whelan and rapturous applause and hoots from a number of audience members. Bruce opened up the subject to the audience where Whelan’s supporters were represented in one particularly odious exchange between Willoughby and an older woman who had the contempt to look her directly in the eye and effectively state "you are still a man".

I couldn’t believe that this woman could morally justify such disdain to another human being, or that the panel chair simply allowed it to go unchallenged. All this happened among the continuous backing from particular gammon-coloured audience members.

In the aftermath of the filming, Willoughby referred on Twitter to the experience using the term "lynch mob" which I felt wasn’t far from the truth. In my own group chat, I could only define the atmosphere through comparison. If it had been an ethnic minority or gay person sitting in Willoughby’s chair, you would have been genuinely lost for words. I couldn’t speak, but I could certainly smell bigotry in the room.

Note the loaded language - the trans activist 'articulate' the woman - 'nasty'. Says it all really.

[ronaldo7]

Note the loaded language - the trans activist 'articulate' the woman - 'nasty'. Says it all really.

Possibly what the guy felt at the time.

[Kato]

Couldn't agree more, it's dangerous to label them as bigots, homophobic, transphobic etc just because they do. Great point.I'll point out here that I haven't called anybody on here any of those things on this issue.

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[Kato]

Or that you're prepared to defend the indefensible.Sorry, man . You've lost me there.

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[WeeRussell]

I've seen bigot and dinosaur too

🤚 - I said I had received messages (from friends) informing me that there was someone offering comments befitting of those words, on QT last night. It certainly wasn’t for someone simply “asking questions”.

Be interested to know why that is an issue for you, if it is that post you refer to?

I’d hate to think you were making out that those debating with you are calling you or anyone else on here certain terms by plucking various words used in different posts, completely out of context.

[James310]

Possibly what the guy felt at the time.

If you were in the audience last night and someone asked you the question about is the rapist a man or a woman and you gave the same answer that you are not sure as you need more information like medical evidence or are they taking hormones etc that would be considered a transphobic response as you are questioning the gender of someone who identifies as a woman.

[archie]

🤚 - I said I had received messages (from friends) informing me that there was someone offering comments befitting of those words, on QT last night. It certainly wasn’t for someone simply “asking questions”.

Be interested to know why that is an issue for you, if it is that post you refer to?

I’d hate to think you were making out that those debating with you are calling you or anyone else on here certain terms by plucking various words used in different posts, completely out of context.

I'm not taking it personally. There's been a lot of these type of comments over the last few days. I'd prefer people engaged with the issues rather than the name calling, but there you go.

[He's here!]

I fell asleep before QT last night - will probably catch the later version in a few days. I did wake up to a couple of messages suggesting there had been the token shouty, bigoted dinosaur on the panel though. And just viewing a couple of 'highlights' now.

Must say I am utterly shocked to learn which of our regular HG posters thought her performance was brilliant. As long as someone's putting "Sturgeon" in her place though eh.

Which panel members were the token shouty, bigoted dinosaurs? The focus of the argument was the absurdity of the SNP panel member being unable to answer whether Bryson is a man or a woman, with the new 'gender' of 'rapist' invented by Sturgeon earlier in the day being parroted. Just nuts - and calling it out as such is not bigoted.

[The Harp Awakes]

So today you don't believe a man is a woman if they say they are, but if the law changed tomorrow and the GRA was enacted you would believe a man is a woman because they said they are? Is that a fair summary of your position?

My views are based on legal fact. If the law changed to allow gender self-certification, my view on that person's gender could change.

Is that ok with you?

[James310]

My views are based on legal fact. If the law changed to allow gender self-certification, my view on that person's gender could change.

Is that ok with you?

That's ok with me. I do find it slightly confusing you can support one position on say a Monday that requires medical diagnosis and the taking of hormones etc but on the Tuesday you can completely oppose the position you had on Monday and champion the the very removal of the things you needed to make your decision the very day before, now you seemingly don't need all that evidence that was important only the day before.

And as a SNP supporter you would also be breaking their own code of conduct by questioning the gender of someone that says they are a woman and asking for evidence etc.

It is tying people in knots.

[He's here!]

What's this got to do with the thread subject?

Uh huh, because nobody on here ever digs up something unrelated to a thread to undermine a comment they don't agree with.

[ronaldo7]

Uh huh, because nobody on here ever digs up something unrelated to a thread to undermine a comment they don't agree with.

Just trying to keep this thread on track. Is that ok with you? Otherwise we'll come on here later and find most of the posts removed. James has agreed to move on. :aok:

[The Harp Awakes]

That's ok with me. I do find it slightly confusing you can support one position on say a Monday that requires medical diagnosis and the taking of hormones etc but on the Tuesday you can completely oppose the position you had on Monday and champion the the very removal of the things you needed to make your decision the very day before, now you seemingly don't need all that evidence that was important only the day before.

And as a SNP supporter you would also be breaking their own code of conduct by questioning the gender of someone that says they are a woman and asking for evidence etc.

It is tying people in knots.

Think you're confusing me with another poster. Haven't referred anywhere to medical diagnosis, hormones etc.

Whatever your own view is on the GRR Bill, you are constantly trying to weaponise it, with an incoherent constant anti SNP rant.

It is a Holyrood piece of legislation, with significant cross party support.

[WeeRussell]

I'm not taking it personally. There's been a lot of these type of comments over the last few days. I'd prefer people engaged with the issues rather than the name calling, but there you go.

I’d much rather people call-out any backward or bigoted views in politics and life. It’s much harder to progress without that.

But there you go.

[147lothian]

Which panel members were the token shouty, bigoted dinosaurs? The focus of the argument was the absurdity of the SNP panel member being unable to answer whether Bryson is a man or a woman, with the new 'gender' of 'rapist' invented by Sturgeon earlier in the day being parroted. Just nuts - and calling it out as such is not bigoted.

The Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson case is not complicated, its a male double rapist trying to game the system after being charged. It's what we were told wouldn't happen with Gender Self-ID happening right in front of our eyes, a predatory male using Self ID to gain entry to a woman only space.

Jenny Gilruth speaking for the SNP tied herself in knots trying to defend gender identity politics, she knows that Gender Self-ID, and the transwomen are women mantra makes no sense, because these are the politics that allowed the double rapist to game the system and be moved after he was convicted to a female only prison.

She looked like a rabbit caught the headlights by trying to be vague and nebulous by calling the double rapist "That Individual" several times, good on Ella Whelan for asking the question is "that individual" a man or a woman, Jenny Gilruth couldn't answer, exposing the absurdity of gender identity politics.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODO0HpyWZMI

[The Harp Awakes]

The Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson case is not complicated, its a male double rapist trying to game the system after being charged. It's what we were told wouldn't happen with Gender Self-ID happening right in front of our eyes, a predatory male using Self ID to gain entry to a woman only space.

Jenny Gilruth speaking for the SNP tied herself in knots trying to defend gender identity politics, she knows that Gender Self-ID, and the transwomen are women mantra makes no sense, because these are the politics that allowed the double rapist to game the system and be moved after he was convicted to a female only prison.

She looked like a rabbit caught the headlights by trying to be vague and nebulous by calling the double rapist "That Individual" several times, good on Ella Whelan for asking the question is "that individual" a man or a woman, Jenny Gilruth couldn't answer, exposing the absurdity of gender identity politics.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODO0HpyWZMI

The prisoner was kept in isolation at Cornton Vale.

Another attempt at political point scoring on a an apolitical subject.

If you must have a go at any political party over the affair, you'd be best focusing on the Labour Party - Scottish Labour fully supportive of the Bill and Westminster Labour for scuppering it.

[archie]

I’d much rather people call-out any backward or bigoted views in politics and life. It’s much harder to progress without that.

But there you go.Maybe better to explain rather than name call.

[archie]

The prisoner was kept in isolation at Corton Vale.

Another attempt at political point scoring on a an apolitical subject.

If you must have a go at any political party over the affair, you'd be best focusing on the Labour Party - Scottish Labour fully supportive of the Bill and Westminster Labour for scuppering it.

So it's the Labour Party to blame! Thanks for clearing that up. I was wondering when someone would point the finger at Labour. Their full support of the Bill conveniently ignores the Labour amendments to protect women that were opposed by SG.

[CropleyWasGod]

In other news....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/64514819

No mention of transgender men, though.

[ronaldo7]

Finland pass Trans act.

https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/politics/22906-finnish-parliament-passes-trans-act-by-vote-of-113-for-69-against.html

I wonder if Sweden or Norway will veto it. :wink:

[Hannah_hfc]

Whether they have had surgery or hormones makes no difference. Again the SNP Code of Conduct.

"Trans people may describe themselves in a variety of terms, and do not need to have undergone any medical or social transition to be described as trans".

I am not sure why you need medical information?

The SPS never said he was a man. Keith Brown said she was a woman.

It's ok to say actually maybe this isn't the best piece of legislation.

You’ve persisted with this point in bold over a few posts now. It’s taken right from the Equality Act 2010.



To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one.
You can be at any stage in the transition process – from proposing to reassign your gender, to undergoing a process to reassign your gender, or having completed it.


https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination#what

The GRR bill/ Scottish Government did not amend or decide what a transgender person is or what is transphobic. It’s only been UK law for 12 years…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

You’ve persisted with this point in bold over a few posts now. It’s taken right from the Equality Act 2010.





https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination#what

The GRR bill/ Scottish Government did not amend or decide what a transgender person is or what is transphobic. It’s only been UK law for 12 years…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's all good, it just confirms my point that people asking for evidence of surgery or have they taken hormones etc are being transphobic? Is that correct?

[WeeRussell]

That's all good, it just confirms my point that people asking for evidence of surgery or have they taken hormones etc are being transphobic? Is that correct?

No - It makes a mockery of your 4 page attempt to get someone to say “yes James” so you can dance around telling them they don’t agree with the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon in particular. “Tying people in knots” indeed.

Utterly pathetic and draining.

[James310]

No - It makes a mockery of your 4 page attempt to get someone to say “yes James” so you can dance around telling them they don’t agree with the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon in particular. “Tying people in knots” indeed.

Utterly pathetic and draining.

You are wrong of course. It highlights that if you don't 100% believe in tbe idealogy that a man is a woman if they say they are you being transphobic. I don't think people are, but if you question someones identify then that's what you are. The only reason people are questioning this person's identify is they are a double rapist, there was an amendment to stop convicted sex offenders doing this, but the SG voted it down, any reason why they did this? Seeing as you wish to defend them?

What's pathetic is the defend the SG at all costs, even when people are tying themselves in knots doing so and I suspect don't even agree with it.

[Moulin Yarns]

You are wrong of course. It highlights that if you don't 100% believe in tbe idealogy that a man is a woman if they say they are you being transphobic. I don't think people are, but if you question someones identify then that's what you are. The only reason people are questioning this person's identify is they are a double rapist, there was an amendment to stop convicted sex offenders doing this, but the SG voted it down, any reason why they did this? Seeing as you wish to defend them?

What's pathetic is the defend the SG at all costs, even when people are tying themselves in knots doing so and I suspect don't even agree with it.

Says the man who deliberately uses he/him when referring to Bryson!!

[McSwanky]

You are wrong of course. It highlights that if you don't 100% believe in tbe idealogy that a man is a woman if they say they are you being transphobic. I don't think people are, but if you question someones identify then that's what you are. The only reason people are questioning this person's identify is they are a double rapist, there was an amendment to stop convicted sex offenders doing this, but the SG voted it down, any reason why they did this? Seeing as you wish to defend them?

What's pathetic is the defend the SG at all costs, even when people are tying themselves in knots doing so and I suspect don't even agree with it.

Again, you'll know more about this than me, and you'll probably slap me down for being naive, but does Gillian Martin's amendment not kind of deal with the point that you're making? Her point being that the amendment you regret to would have been thrown out by the courts?

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

[WeeRussell]

You are wrong of course. It highlights that if you don't 100% believe in tbe idealogy that a man is a woman if they say they are you being transphobic. I don't think people are, but if you question someones identify then that's what you are. The only reason people are questioning this person's identify is they are a double rapist, there was an amendment to stop convicted sex offenders doing this, but the SG voted it down, any reason why they did this? Seeing as you wish to defend them?

What's pathetic is the defend the SG at all costs, even when people are tying themselves in knots doing so and I suspect don't even agree with it.

Where about in my post have I defended anyone? As it happens I don’t have overly strong feelings on Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP either way. They get my vote just now as an independence supporter and I happen to believe she is miles ahead of any of her equivalents right now.

But neither my feelings on NS or her party, or your concerning obsession with both, should be particularly relevant here.

But we all know it’s the sole reason for your ever presence on this thread, or almost any other one on this board for hibs supporters.

[CropleyWasGod]

Again, you'll know more about this than me, and you'll probably slap me down for being naive, but does Gillian Martin's amendment not kind of deal with the point that you're making? Her point being that the amendment you regret to would have been thrown out by the courts?

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

That is the reason it was rejected. AIUI, the amendment would have fallen foul of the ECHR.

[James310]

Where about in my post have I defended anyone? As it happens I don’t have overly strong feelings on Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP either way. They get my vote just now as an independence supporter and I happen to believe she is miles ahead of any of her equivalents right now.

But neither my feelings on NS or her party, or your concerning obsession with both, should be particularly relevant here.

But we all know it’s the sole reason for your ever presence on this thread, or almost any other one on this board for hibs supporters.

You like many others defend pretty much everything the SG do.

[He's here!]

Says the man who deliberately uses he/him when referring to Bryson!!

That's the correct terminology in his case. Even Sturgeon was forced to concede he's faking his trans status.

[James310]

Says the man who deliberately uses he/him when referring to Bryson!!

Oh who will think of the feelings of the poor rapist?

You have never answered the question a few people asked, what's a legitimate trans woman? You used that phrase so what does it mean? How do you know under self ID if someone is legitimate or not?

Is Bryson a legitimate trans woman?

[Ozyhibby]

Oh who will think of the feelings of the poor rapist?

You have never answered the question a few people asked, what's a legitimate trans woman? You used that phrase so what does it mean? How do you know under self ID if someone is legitimate or not?

Is Bryson a legitimate trans woman?

You keep using his/her chosen female name so you must think so?


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[James310]

You keep using his/her chosen female name so you must think so?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, I think they are faking it. What do you think?

[Ozyhibby]

No, I think they are faking it. What do you think?

I have no idea what so ever and more importantly for me, I don’t give a monkeys. The person is in jail now and won’t be getting out anytime soon. How he/she now spends her days is of no interest to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WeeRussell]

You keep using his/her chosen female name so you must think so?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope - it’s everyone else who are tying themselves in knots.

[ronaldo7]

That's all good, it just confirms my point that people asking for evidence of surgery or have they taken hormones etc are being transphobic? Is that correct?

You seem to be twisting things.

Two people discussing how far someone has transitioned on an internet forum is not transphobic.

Gatekeepers in services in the wider world asking them would be.

I asked yesterday how far Isla has transitioned and received information from another poster that they'd had hormone treatment but hadn't gone through the medical change.

That doesn't make anyone transphobic. Would you agree?

[James310]

You seem to be twisting things.

Two people discussing how far someone has transitioned on an internet forum is not transphobic.

Gatekeepers in services in the wider world asking them would be.

I asked yesterday how far Isla has transitioned and received information from another poster that they'd had hormone treatment but hadn't gone through the medical change.

That doesn't make anyone transphobic. Would you agree?

Well it does according to this:

Transphobia may manifest in a number of ways, including, but not limited to:

"using phrases or language to suggest [someone’s] gender identity is not valid"

Sorry you don't like it, the idealogy is if someone says they are a woman they are a woman, that's the whole point of self ID, if that isn't the point of self ID what is....

[ronaldo7]

Well it does according to this:

Transphobia may manifest in a number of ways, including, but not limited to:

"using phrases or language to suggest [someone’s] gender identity is not valid"

Sorry you don't like it, the idealogy is if someone says they are a woman they are a woman, that's the whole point of self ID, if that isn't the point of self ID what is....

You're mixing it up again.

I'm not asking about the ideology, and I'm not asking about self ID.

I'm asking if you agree that if someone asks a question regarding someone's status on an internet forum, it's not transphobic?

[James310]

You're mixing it up again.

I'm not asking about the ideology, and I'm not asking about self ID.

I'm asking if you agree that if someone asks a question regarding someone's status on an internet forum, it's not transphobic?

Well it is according to the definitions.

You made comparisons to the way gay people were treated, would you ask a gay man how far down the road he was in his journey to being gay he was? Would you want details on if he has had any gay experiences to confirm he was gay? Course you wouldn't, you would accept he is gay.

You either support self ID which is you believe if a man says he is a woman he is, or you don't.

You are needing answers before you can make a decision, so you are questioning his identify as you suspect he might be lying. Unfortunately if you question the legitimacy of his trans status you are meeting this criteria.

"using phrases or language to suggest [someone’s] gender identity is not valid"

You want the information to make a judgment about the validity of his status?

We will just need to agree to disagree on this and give everyone a rest!

Have a great day. 👍

[James310]

Sorry R7 I want to make it clear I don't think you are transphobic, I am using the example to paint how this self ID idealogy can tie people in knots when it crashes into the real world.

I suspect we both want something that meets the majority needs off everyone.

[ronaldo7]

Sorry R7 I want to make it clear I don't think you are transphobic, I am using the example to paint how this self ID idealogy can tie people in knots when it crashes into the real world.

I suspect we both want something that meets the majority needs off everyone.

From being accused of "bigging up" India Willoughby one day(not you), to being given the all clear on my transphobic questioning the next.

Only on Hibs.net

😂

Have a good day.

[archie]

From being accused of "bigging up" India Willoughby one day(not you), to being given the all clear on my transphobic questioning the next.

Only on Hibs.net

😂

Have a good day.

You see that's what working constructively together does...

[ronaldo7]

You see that's what working constructively together does...

I'll leave you and James to get a room. 👍

[147lothian]

It's just a thought but did Nicola Sturgeon not appear on QT because she knew that Ella Whelan was going to question the logic of gender identity politics? Jenny Gilruth who stood in for her was tied in knots, the audience could see this and began groaning when she tried to evade Ella Whelan's question, and were cheering Ella Whelan on, for this to happen at the Kelvin Hall shows that gender identity politics just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[Pretty Boy]

It's just a thought but did Nicola Sturgeon not appear on QT because she knew that Ella Whelan was going to question the logic of gender identity politics? Jenny Gilruth who stood in for her was tied in knots, the audience could see this and began groaning when she tried to evade Ella Whelan's question, and were cheering Ella Whelan on, for this to happen at the Kelvin Hall shows that gender identity politics just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I watched QT on iplayer this morning and I don't think anyone came out of the debate, and particularly that exchange, looking great.

Whelan came across as a bit of a bully and very much old school in her opinions on sex and sexuality. Gilruth was evasive and either couldn't or wouldn't answer the question asked. I suppose 'what is a woman?' has become a fully loaded question now though and one regularly used by both sides in the debate to further their own agenda and attempt to discredit and/or embarrass the person they are asking.

[Ozyhibby]

It's just a thought but did Nicola Sturgeon not appear on QT because she knew that Ella Whelan was going to question the logic of gender identity politics? Jenny Gilruth who stood in for her was tied in knots, the audience could see this and began groaning when she tried to evade Ella Whelan's question, and were cheering Ella Whelan on, for this to happen at the Kelvin Hall shows that gender identity politics just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Don’t think the FM ever does Question time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glory Lurker]

Don’t think the FM ever does Question time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly. Last time a sitting PM was on it?

[Crunchie]

Exactly. Last time a sitting PM was on it?
She's not a PM.

[Moulin Yarns]

If anybody is in Glasgow today.



https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/25/posie-parker-glasgow-cabaret-furries/



George Square 11am

[James310]

If anybody is in Glasgow today.



https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/25/posie-parker-glasgow-cabaret-furries/



George Square 11am

Have you worked out what a legitimate trans woman is yet? It's a term you used.

If the GRA became law how would you know who is legitimate and not legitimate?

[Glory Lurker]

She's not a PM.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[He's here!]

If anybody is in Glasgow today.



https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/25/posie-parker-glasgow-cabaret-furries/



George Square 11am

What are 'furries'?

[He's here!]

I watched QT on iplayer this morning and I don't think anyone came out of the debate, and particularly that exchange, looking great.

Whelan came across as a bit of a bully and very much old school in her opinions on sex and sexuality. Gilruth was evasive and either couldn't or wouldn't answer the question asked. I suppose 'what is a woman?' has become a fully loaded question now though and one regularly used by both sides in the debate to further their own agenda and attempt to discredit and/or embarrass the person they are asking.

Is it really 'old school' to point out biological fact?

[James310]

What are 'furries'?

People that identify as animals I think.

But I see that article links to a trans woman called Beth who seems to be quite an influencer for the recent trans rights but can only be described as an extremist. (Photos of her holding knives etc) She is close to Maggie Chapman (what a surprise) and stood for the Greens. Some of the history of Beth makes for some disturbing reading so I won't link to it. I will repeat what I have said before this is in the main being driven by extremists who have captured the Government. We see the results in the recent polls.

I wonder if the SNP will have second thoughts about challenging the S35, surely the sensible thing to do now is admit it went wrong and everyone needs to come together and work out a compromise.

Joanna Cherry

"It’s time to admit that feminist criticisms of self-ID & the #GRRBill were right, eat some humble pie & sort this mess out before it does any more damage to the reputation of our party, parliament & the cause of Scotland’s independence"

[Hibrandenburg]

I watched QT on iplayer this morning and I don't think anyone came out of the debate, and particularly that exchange, looking great.

Whelan came across as a bit of a bully and very much old school in her opinions on sex and sexuality. Gilruth was evasive and either couldn't or wouldn't answer the question asked. I suppose 'what is a woman?' has become a fully loaded question now though and one regularly used by both sides in the debate to further their own agenda and attempt to discredit and/or embarrass the person they are asking.

:agree: Just got back from a week in Austria and watched it about an hour ago. Can't help feeling she sounded like someone arguing the sun rotated around the earth.

[Skol]

:agree: Just got back from a week in Austria and watched it about an hour ago. Can't help feeling she sounded like someone arguing the sun rotated around the earth.

Wheelan or Gilruth?

[Hibrandenburg]

Wheelan or Gilruth?

Whelan

[He's here!]

Whelan

For stating the obvious (that Bryson isn't a woman)?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://womansplaceuk.org/2022/06/22/womans-place-and-posie-parker/

[Hibrandenburg]

For stating the obvious (that Bryson isn't a woman)?

No, for her prehistoric opinions on biological sex.

[He's here!]

No, for her prehistoric opinions on biological sex.

I guess we'll never know what prehistoric opinions were on biological sex. If Whelan had been questioning gender identity (entirely different) she might have deserved some criticism but she didn't. The biological reality of men and women is long established. You can be a trans-woman or a trans-man, but you will always be biologically female or male.

[Hibrandenburg]

I guess we'll never know what prehistoric opinions were on biological sex. If Whelan had been questioning gender identity (entirely different) she might have deserved some criticism but she didn't. The biological reality of men and women is long established. You can be a trans-woman or a trans-man, but you will always be biologically female or male.

Like I said, it reminds me of those set in the belief that the sun rotates around the earth or that the earth is flat. Modern science has proven that sex is not binary, instead it's a spectrum that recognises that x and y chromosomes are not the be all and end all of determining biological sex. It'll take a while for the dinosaurs to become extinct, but their days are definitely numbered.

[CropleyWasGod]

I guess we'll never know what prehistoric opinions were on biological sex. If Whelan had been questioning gender identity (entirely different) she might have deserved some criticism but she didn't. The biological reality of men and women is long established. You can be a trans-woman or a trans-man, but you will always be biologically female or male.

So you don't recognise the concept of intersex?

[He's here!]

Like I said, it reminds me of those set in the belief that the sun rotates around the earth or that the earth is flat. Modern science has proven that sex is not binary, instead it's a spectrum that recognises that x and y chromosomes are not the be all and end all of determining biological sex. It'll take a while for the dinosaurs to become extinct, but their days are definitely numbered.

No trans-person can change their biological sex. It's hardly flat earth talk to acknowledge that.

[147lothian]

I guess we'll never know what prehistoric opinions were on biological sex. If Whelan had been questioning gender identity (entirely different) she might have deserved some criticism but she didn't. The biological reality of men and women is long established. You can be a trans-woman or a trans-man, but you will always be biologically female or male.

Here is Ella Whelan chair of a discussion on How we talk to kids about gender, the panel includes two trans people Debbie Hayton and Katy Jon Went. It is very informative especially when debates like this don't happen very often, Debbie Hayton makes a great point on how irresponsible it is to tell kids they can change their sex at a young age.


https://worldwrite.org.uk/video/girl-boy-other-how-do-we-talk-to-kids-abot-gender/

[He's here!]

So you don't recognise the concept of intersex?

Yes of course I do but somebody being born with atypical genitalia bears no relation to claims that trans-women are women in every sense.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yes of course I do but somebody being born with atypical genitalia bears no relation to claims that trans-women are women in every sense.

OK. That doesn't seem to correspond with your statement that one is "always biologically male or female".

[Hibrandenburg]

No trans-person can change their biological sex. It's hardly flat earth talk to acknowledge that.

They're not changing sex, they're just correcting the label they we're incorrectly given in most cases. The term "sex change" is probably misleading.

[marinello59]

Have you worked out what a legitimate trans woman is yet? It's a term you used.

If the GRA became law how would you know who is legitimate and not legitimate?

Surely you are eventually going to run out of ways to ask the same question over and over again.:greengrin

This legislation will be UK wide sooner then you probably think and people will not be tying themselves in knots trying to define anything, as always it will be what a reasonable person thinks.

[James310]

Surely you are eventually going to run out of ways to ask the same question over and over again.:greengrin

This legislation will be UK wide sooner then you probably think and people will not be tying themselves in knots trying to define anything, as always it will be what a reasonable person thinks.

If only I could get an answer. The thing is if anyone answers it ties them in knots like Jenny Gilruth on QT.

I think Keir Starmer would be a fool to ignore what's happening in Scotland and whatever is done in Westminster will not look the same as what is up here, for example he has already said 16/17 yr olds is to young. He will look and learn.

[CropleyWasGod]

If only I could get an answer. The thing is if anyone answers it ties them in knots like Jenny Gilruth on QT.

I think Keir Starmer would be a fool to ignore what's happening in Scotland and whatever is done in Westminster will not look the same as what is up here, for example he has already said 16/17 yr olds is to young. He will look and learn.

You just got one :greengrin

[147lothian]

What are 'furries'?

The Furries are inadequate male tossers who hide their identity behind a costume and go looking for fights with women every time they gather to campaign for their sex based rights.

For some awkward people, being a furry is simply a way to socialize without the weight of normal rules, a retreat from reality. However, the fact that this escapism takes such an outwardly child-friendly form is a bit of a red flag.

Surely, even the google-eyed gender loons in the SNP must have enough nous to see that adult men who get a kick from dressing up as animals are not the ideal spokespeople for their self-ID bill.

I think they were targeting women at the Let women speak rally in Glasgow today, if the battle for women is 'I'm a women hear me roar' the opposing chant must surely be 'I am Colin in a cartoon animal head, hear me whine through this small air vent', It should be pretty obvious to everyone which side is right here.

[He's here!]

OK. That doesn't seem to correspond with your statement that one is "always biologically male or female".

Yeh, fair enough. Intersex is an outlier in that sense I guess but is still measured biologically.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The Furries are inadequate male tossers who hide their identity behind a costume and go looking for fights with women every time they gather to campaign for their sex based rights.

Do you have the sources and statistics to back that claim up? It's somewhat disturbing that anyone wearing an animal costume has you riled up so much. I hope you never visit Disneyland.

[Kato]

Do you have the sources and statistics to back that claim up? It's somewhat disturbing that anyone wearing an animal costume has you riled up so much. I hope you never visit Disneyland.Or seen the tens of thousands of bears in ibrox.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

The Furries are inadequate male tossers who hide their identity behind a costume and go looking for fights with women every time they gather to campaign for their sex based rights.

For some awkward people, being a furry is simply a way to socialize without the weight of normal rules, a retreat from reality. However, the fact that this escapism takes such an outwardly child-friendly form is a bit of a red flag.

Surely, even the google-eyed gender loons in the SNP must have enough nous to see that adult men who get a kick from dressing up as animals are not the ideal spokespeople for their self-ID bill.

I think they were targeting women at the Let women speak rally in Glasgow today, if the battle for women is 'I'm a women hear me roar' the opposing chant must surely be 'I am Colin in a cartoon animal head, hear me whine through this small air vent', It should be pretty obvious to everyone which side is right here.

Nae Panto for your bairns at Christmas then. 😂

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you have the sources and statistics to back that claim up? It's somewhat disturbing that anyone wearing an animal costume has you riled up so much. I hope you never visit Disneyland.

Or watch the masked singer 😂

[Moulin Yarns]

The Furries are inadequate male tossers who hide their identity behind a costume and go looking for fights with women every time they gather to campaign for their sex based rights.

For some awkward people, being a furry is simply a way to socialize without the weight of normal rules, a retreat from reality. However, the fact that this escapism takes such an outwardly child-friendly form is a bit of a red flag.

Surely, even the google-eyed gender loons in the SNP must have enough nous to see that adult men who get a kick from dressing up as animals are not the ideal spokespeople for their self-ID bill.

I think they were targeting women at the Let women speak rally in Glasgow today, if the battle for women is 'I'm a women hear me roar' the opposing chant must surely be 'I am Colin in a cartoon animal head, hear me whine through this small air vent', It should be pretty obvious to everyone which side is right here.

For your information they were kept apart, the anti trans group outside the wetherspoons and the pro trans in front of the city Chambers. Oh aye and Manky Jaiket was with the right wing anti trans group!!

[He's here!]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-trans-women-isla-bryson-77g8zzbll

How 'Isla' has done more harm to Sturgeon than any political rival.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-trans-women-isla-bryson-77g8zzbll

How 'Isla' has done more harm to Sturgeon than any political rival.

You lot have strange champions.[emoji2961]


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[He's here!]

You lot have strange champions.[emoji2961]


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Yep that's the main take from the story.

[He's here!]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/gender-recognition-reform-bill-snp-gender-reform-critics-should-consider-positions-at-next-election-says-scottish-minister-4014755

Somerville follows Smyth in calling for SNP rebels to consider their future in the party.

[hibby rae]

For your information they were kept apart, the anti trans group outside the wetherspoons and the pro trans in front of the city Chambers. Oh aye and Manky Jaiket was with the right wing anti trans group!!

Andy Ngo was with the anti-trans group as well. Big friend of the Proud Boys

[ronaldo7]

Yep that's the main take from the story.

I think the women won't wheesht group need to be aware who are attaching themselves to the rallies they're having.

Manky Jaiket (A force for good)
Andy Ngo
National Housing Party
Scottish Family Party
Max Dunbar, formerly of the BNP

Strange bedfellows indeed.

I know some women who called out Dunbar, but they really need to watch out who's turning up on their side of the argument.

https://twitter.com/EuanYours/status/1622342116629250048

[He's here!]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23301310.stephen-flynn-views-snp-gender-reform-critics-respected/

Flynn takes the opposite view to Sturgeon ally Somerville.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23301310.stephen-flynn-views-snp-gender-reform-critics-respected/

Flynn takes the opposite view to Sturgeon ally Somerville.

The FM has just had a discussion about this at Bute house, and said their would be many different views on individual issues. Do you have a difficulty with that?

[He's here!]

The FM has just had a discussion about this at Bute house, and said their would be many different views on individual issues. Do you have a difficulty with that?

Why would I have 'difficulty' with it? It's the SNP who are having all sorts of self-inflicted difficulties with this particular issue.

[ronaldo7]

Not sure if this should have been on the BBC bias thread but it covers this one as well. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but they do need a story eh. :wink:

Massive so it is. :wink:

https://twitter.com/BronzeBullyTime/status/1622319487532802050

[ronaldo7]

Why would I have 'difficulty' with it? It's the SNP who are having all sorts of self-inflicted difficulties with this particular issue.

Politicians with different views. How very strange for you.

[Mr Grieves]

I think the women won't wheesht group need to be aware who are attaching themselves to the rallies they're having.

Manky Jaiket (A force for good)
Andy Ngo
National Housing Party
Scottish Family Party
Max Dunbar, formerly of the BNP

Strange bedfellows indeed.

I know some women who called out Dunbar, but they really need to watch out who's turning up on their side of the argument.

https://twitter.com/EuanYours/status/1622342116629250048

A Holocaust denier, anti-abortionists, anti-feminists and fascists at a rally for women's rights. I guess the organisers were just unlucky

[He's here!]

Politicians with different views. How very strange for you.

I get that your devotion to the SNP compels you to downplay each and every hint of discord, but this is an issue which has split the party like no other and has understandably sparked widespread media coverage for months now. I'm not surprised they're desperate to put a lid on it.

From my point of view, I'd be strongly opposed to this ill-concieved bill whichever party had brought it to life and I hope common sense will prevail in terms of a rethink. However, if the furore around it means an ongoing feud within the SNP then that's a welcome bonus.

[hibby rae]

I get that your devotion to the SNP compels you to downplay each and every hint of discord, but this is an issue which has split the party like no other and has understandably sparked widespread media coverage for months now. I'm not surprised they're desperate to put a lid on it.

From my point of view, I'd be strongly opposed to this ill-concieved bill whichever party had brought it to life and I hope common sense will prevail in terms of a rethink. However, if the furore around it means an ongoing feud within the SNP then that's a welcome bonus.

Except when 2 MPs and others left and formed a new party because of a different issue

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure if this should have been on the BBC bias thread but it covers this one as well. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but they do need a story eh. :wink:

Massive so it is. :wink:

https://twitter.com/BronzeBullyTime/status/1622319487532802050

I reckon both groups together amounted to no more than 250-300 evenly distributed. It started at 11 and both were breaking up about 2 to 2:30.

There was a lot of shouting at one end and singing and dancing at the other.

[Ozyhibby]

Except when 2 MPs and others left and formed a new party because of a different issue

That is probably what is stopping Joanna Cherry leaving.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Except when 2 MPs and others left and formed a new party because of a different issue

Yeh, I did consider that but thought the party were privately quite glad to be shot of those two. The 'gender rebels', particularly if they stick around, are going to prove more of a persistent thorn in the SNP's side.

[He's here!]

I think the women won't wheesht group need to be aware who are attaching themselves to the rallies they're having.

Manky Jaiket (A force for good)
Andy Ngo
National Housing Party
Scottish Family Party
Max Dunbar, formerly of the BNP

Strange bedfellows indeed.

I know some women who called out Dunbar, but they really need to watch out who's turning up on their side of the argument.

https://twitter.com/EuanYours/status/1622342116629250048

https://wingsoverscotland.com/different-cultures/

The other side, meanwhile, continue to display how open-minded they are when it comes to sign-writing.

[McSwanky]

I get that your devotion to the SNP compels you to downplay each and every hint of discord, but this is an issue which has split the party like no other and has understandably sparked widespread media coverage for months now. I'm not surprised they're desperate to put a lid on it.

From my point of view, I'd be strongly opposed to this ill-concieved bill whichever party had brought it to life and I hope common sense will prevail in terms of a rethink. However, if the furore around it means an ongoing feud within the SNP then that's a welcome bonus.

Party politics aside, are you strongly opposed to it completely, or was it just certain aspects of it you're not happy about? How do you feel about the Gillian Martin amendment, for instance?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/different-cultures/

The other side, meanwhile, continue to display how open-minded they are when it comes to sign-writing.

Stuart Campbell belongs in that same list. Another character who has gone completely off the rails. I'm sure I saw a tweet of his not too long ago claiming that he was campaigning for the tory MP in his constituency for the next election. Very much on the same side it would seem.

[ronaldo7]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/different-cultures/

The other side, meanwhile, continue to display how open-minded they are when it comes to sign-writing.

You might be happy for the women to stand with those groups indicated. Not sure they'd like to be associated with them though.

The wider point which you spectacularly missed is that meetings/rallies can be infiltrated by a small group of people not really interested in the outcomes of the rally.

[SHODAN]

A Holocaust denier, anti-abortionists, anti-feminists and fascists at a rally for women's rights. I guess the organisers were just unlucky

I've purposely avoided this thread because it is extremely upsetting to see people in my community and a group that contains some of my close friends attacked daily in the mainstream media and by prominent figureheads let alone on this forum, but it is really worrying that this bile has been brought into my country and is simply reported as a woman's rights march. The above quote sums it up. It is ****ing terrifying. People are going to get killed.

Btw, I'm not here for a debate, anyone defending these people have been blocked. No.

[He's here!]

You might be happy for the women to stand with those groups indicated. Not sure they'd like to be associated with them though.

The wider point which you spectacularly missed is that meetings/rallies can be infiltrated by a small group of people not really interested in the outcomes of the rally.

Where have I said I'm happy about that? I've said nothing at all about the groups you listed. And if anything my post endorses your point about rallies being infiltrated by bampots, as was the recent one with the nutjob brandishing the 'decapitate all terfs' sign.

[He's here!]

Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

[Hibrandenburg]

Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

I'm pretty sure she didn't say such even though I've not seen the conference in question. I'm also pretty sure that your thinly veiled rhetoric that constantly links transsexuals to rapist borders on hate speech. I'm surprised it's tolerated.

[Kato]

Stuart Campbell belongs in that same list. Another character who has gone completely off the rails. I'm sure I saw a tweet of his not too long ago claiming that he was campaigning for the tory MP in his constituency for the next election. Very much on the same side it would seem.Since his arrest and subsequent release he's pivoted on most of views.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[147lothian]

Here is an American account of the Question Time debate, I think some people thought that when they saw Jenny Gilruth tying herself in knots with gender ideology politics, that Ella Whelan was attacking the SNP, I don't think that's the case at all because either Joanna Cherry or Ash Regan, would have made the same basic points that Ella Whelan made, that when 'I identify as' is taken seriously rather than the reality of biological sex, biological woman will suffer, in woman only spaces.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0cbQY0PKv4

[James310]

I'm pretty sure she didn't say such even though I've not seen the conference in question. I'm also pretty sure that your thinly veiled rhetoric that constantly links transsexuals to rapist borders on hate speech. I'm surprised it's tolerated.

Why do you feel that both Nicola Sturgeon and Jenny Gilruth now refuse to gender Bryson when Keith Brown was pretty clear she is a woman? Why can't she say Bryson is a woman and a rapist and will be treated as such. If the SG policy is someone is a woman if they say they are then follow through on that policy surely?

If you don't know then neither does anyone else and that's why questions are being asked, that seemingly won't be answered.

[WeeRussell]

Party politics aside, are you strongly opposed to it completely, or was it just certain aspects of it you're not happy about? How do you feel about the Gillian Martin amendment, for instance?

“Party politics aside” 😂 good luck with that.

It’s the absolute only reason he’s on this thread/board every day.

[He's here!]

I'm pretty sure she didn't say such even though I've not seen the conference in question. I'm also pretty sure that your thinly veiled rhetoric that constantly links transsexuals to rapist borders on hate speech. I'm surprised it's tolerated.

There's no veil, thin or otherwise, around my 'rhetoric'. I think it's fair comment to point out the obvious, that 'the rapist' is a man. It's tolerated because it's the truth.

[WeeRussell]

Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

By “sounds like” do you mean you didn’t actually see it (similar to how you don’t tend to read the links you constantly post because you sense some anti-sturgeon in them) but went ahead and made up a lot of ***** and followed it with the “lost the plot” tagline.

[H18 SFR]

Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

Why won’t she answer the question? It makes no sense!

[He's here!]

Party politics aside, are you strongly opposed to it completely, or was it just certain aspects of it you're not happy about? How do you feel about the Gillian Martin amendment, for instance?

Sorry, missed this earlier. I support the Martin/Greene amendment. Any rational person would. My opposition to the bill is, like most opponents, centred around the introduction of self-ID, the removal of any meaningful checks and balances for most wishing to transition and making it easier for children to embark on potentially irreversible procedures.

[McSwanky]

Sorry, missed this earlier. I support the Martin/Greene amendment. Any rational person would. My opposition to the bill is, like most opponents, centred around the introduction of self-ID, the removal of any meaningful checks and balances for most wishing to transition and making it easier for children to embark on potentially irreversible procedures.

Thanks for taking the time to answer. So is there anything that would make it acceptable in your view? Any tweaks or amendments? Or is it simply beyond repair? What meaningful checks and balance (whatever that phrase means! [emoji16]) would you propose?

Does the amendment in your view deal with the likes of the Isla Bryson case?

The point re children I'm also interested in. As I've mentioned before, my two kids have multiple peers in their schools who identify as different to the sex they were born with, and from where I'm sitting the kids just accept this and it's not treated as in any way strange (any more than enjoying Maths or the like is anyway!) In what way does this legislation make it easier for children to embark on irreversible procedures?

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

Why do you feel that both Nicola Sturgeon and Jenny Gilruth now refuse to gender Bryson when Keith Brown was pretty clear she is a woman? Why can't she say Bryson is a woman and a rapist and will be treated as such. If the SG policy is someone is a woman if they say they are then follow through on that policy surely?

If you don't know then neither does anyone else and that's why questions are being asked, that seemingly won't be answered.

I've no idea why Sturgeon or Gilruth refuse to gender Bryson. I can only assume that they are waiting for a full assessment from experts of what is an exceptionally unusual state of affairs. But what I won't do is demonise the vast majority of transsexuals based on one or two isolated cases of perverts trying to play the law.

[James310]

I've no idea why Sturgeon or Gilruth refuse to gender Bryson

Neither does anyone else so it's reasonable to ask that question if they continue to refuse to answer it, they surely either believe Bryson is a woman or a man. Imagine not being able to answer a fundamental question such as that.

But why do you think Keith Brown does not need this extra information and can gender Bryson as 'she' and be clear he thinks she is a woman? You must agree that at the very least there is a lack of consistency when one Government Minister can answer but another one can't when both are asked the same question.

But I go back to your point about needing extra information, how do you think that would be gathered under a process of self ID? I don't see how it can but maybe I am missing something.

[He's here!]

Thanks for taking the time to answer. So is there anything that would make it acceptable in your view? Any tweaks or amendments? Or is it simply beyond repair? What meaningful checks and balance (whatever that phrase means! [emoji16]) would you propose?

Does the amendment in your view deal with the likes of the Isla Bryson case?

The point re children I'm also interested in. As I've mentioned before, my two kids have multiple peers in their schools who identify as different to the sex they were born with, and from where I'm sitting the kids just accept this and it's not treated as in any way strange (any more than enjoying Maths or the like is anyway!) In what way does this legislation make it easier for children to embark on irreversible procedures?

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

I've posted at length on most of what you're asking there, but I don't expect you to trawl back through the thread to read up on my views...suffice to say I'm not convinced trans people require the additional rights this bill offers. They are offered security and protection by the 2010 Equality Act and while the 2004 GRA did impact on women's rights, it offered enough safeguards to reassure women that it would be difficult for bad faith actors to exploit it. I feel that any political goodwill which might have originally lain behind the proposed reforms has already been (predictably) overshadowed by the erosion of goodwill towards trans people due to the opportunities the legislation offers those bad faith actors to take advantage of it. If anything, the sweeping away of safeguards will undermine rather than enhance trans rights and make life harder for them.

Re children I think scant attention has been paid to the view that gender dysphoria can be transient and associated with issues such as puberty (and its attendant discomforts), coming to terms with same sex attraction, childhood trauma or even conditions like autism etc. I think the approach of discredited charities like Mermaids and their insistence that gender dysphoria is always indicative of a fixed trans identity is hugely dangerous and can lead to ill-advised medical treatment that may well be regretted. Like your kids, mine are very relaxed about the number of their peers who identify as a different gender and I myself find it quite uplifting to see the number of young people who are clearly adopting a 'gender fluid' approach to life. However, I think reducing the age at which kids can make what can be irreversible changes in that direction is a step too far.

In short, I don't believe Sturgeon has shown herself capable of legislating on these issues and the bill should be either, as Joanna Cherry advocates, signifcantly amended, or simply set aside as a badly bungled piece of legislation.

[He's here!]

By “sounds like” do you mean you didn’t actually see it (similar to how you don’t tend to read the links you constantly post because you sense some anti-sturgeon in them) but went ahead and made up a lot of ***** and followed it with the “lost the plot” tagline.

You seem to reckon you know what I think and do pretty well. What are your own views on whether Bryson is a man, woman...or the new third sex 'rapist'?

In answer to your question, I read the reports of the press conference then viewed it see if Sturgeon really did get herself into as big a pickle as was reported. Turns out she did. After over a week of failing to answer a simple question she now has no alternative to maintaining this ridiculous 'the individual is a rapist' line because if she concedes he's a man she undermines her own legislation (which she claimed nobody would exploit) and if she says he's a woman (ie a woman who can commit rape) she just looks daft.

[Hibrandenburg]

Neither does anyone else so it's reasonable to ask that question if they continue to refuse to answer it, they surely either believe Bryson is a woman or a man. Imagine not being able to answer a fundamental question such as that.

But why do you think Keith Brown does not need this extra information and can gender Bryson as 'she' and be clear he thinks she is a woman? You must agree that at the very least there is a lack of consistency when one Government Minister can answer but another one can't when both are asked the same question.

But I go back to your point about needing extra information, how do you think that would be gathered under a process of self ID? I don't see how it can but maybe I am missing something.

Why is your opinion different to mine James? People are allowed to have different opinions, even government ministers. That said, Gilruth and Sturgeon haven't really expressed an opinion by not "gendering" Bryson, maybe they are still waiting to form an opinion based on expert evaluation, what in my book seems a sensible thing to do and what will probably always happen in extreme circumstances like the Bryson case. You do accept that the Bryson case is an extreme example or do you believe that all transsexuals need to be put under the microscope?

[McSwanky]

I've posted at length on most of what you're asking there, but I don't expect you to trawl back through the thread to read up on my views...suffice to say I'm not convinced trans people require the additional rights this bill offers. They are offered security and protection by the 2010 Equality Act and while the 2004 GRA did impact on women's rights, it offered enough safeguards to reassure women that it would be difficult for bad faith actors to exploit it. I feel that any political goodwill which might have originally lain behind the proposed reforms has already been (predictably) overshadowed by the erosion of goodwill towards trans people due to the opportunities the legislation offers those bad faith actors to take advantage of it. If anything, the sweeping away of safeguards will undermine rather than enhance trans rights and make life harder for them.

Re children I think scant attention has been paid to the view that gender dysphoria can be transient and associated with issues such as puberty (and its attendant discomforts), coming to terms with same sex attraction, childhood trauma or even conditions like autism etc. I think the approach of discredited charities like Mermaids and their insistence that gender dysphoria is always indicative of a fixed trans identity is hugely dangerous and can lead to ill-advised medical treatment that may well be regretted. Like your kids, mine are very relaxed about the number of their peers who identify as a different gender and I myself find it quite uplifting to see the number of young people who are clearly adopting a 'gender fluid' approach to life. However, I think reducing the age at which kids can make what can be irreversible changes in that direction is a step too far.

In short, I don't believe Sturgeon has shown herself capable of legislating on these issues and the bill should be either, as Joanna Cherry advocates, signifcantly amended, or simply set aside as a badly bungled piece of legislation.

Fair play, a well constructed argument, and a lot more refreshing to read than the usual demands for a yes/no answer from the likes of Douglas Ross.

I'll forgive your slightly clumsy language around autism, but I take the point. I don't think anyone should be forced into life altering decisions in childhood, like you I'd like to think that changing attitudes in our younger generation will render this pretty much a moot point. Hopefully people can live the life they want to live without feeling pressured into going down an irreversible path.

I'm not that well up on what changes re women's rights in this bill I'm afraid, but what I do know is that we can't constantly legislate based on the worst case scenario - the vast majority of people want to get along. Of course there will be, as there always is, a small number of people who want to get around the law for whatever personal gain they are after, but these people must be treated separately from everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty has to apply here, and the amendment previously mentioned should hopefully deal with 'the guilty ones.'

As always, heavily caveated with 'I don't really know what I'm talking about' vibes on my part.

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Fair play, a well constructed argument, and a lot more refreshing to read than the usual demands for a yes/no answer from the likes of Douglas Ross.

I'll forgive your slightly clumsy language around autism, but I take the point. I don't think anyone should be forced into life altering decisions in childhood, like you I'd like to think that changing attitudes in our younger generation will render this pretty much a moot point. Hopefully people can live the life they want to live without feeling pressured into going down an irreversible path.

I'm not that well up on what changes re women's rights in this bill I'm afraid, but what I do know is that we can't constantly legislate based on the worst case scenario - the vast majority of people want to get along. Of course there will be, as there always is, a small number of people who want to get around the law for whatever personal gain they are after, but these people must be treated separately from everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty has to apply here, and the amendment previously mentioned should hopefully deal with 'the guilty ones.'

As always, heavily caveated with 'I don't really know what I'm talking about' vibes on my part.

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

Yeh, apologies if that didn't come across well. I work one-to-one with autistic kids on an almost daily basis at work so I hesitated to include that as it does merit careful wording. I just didn't want to end up typing so much that it would put you off trying to read it!

[McSwanky]

Yeh, apologies if that didn't come across well. I work one-to-one with autistic kids on an almost daily basis at work so I hesitated to include that as it does merit careful wording. I just didn't want to end up typing so much that it would put you off trying to read it!

No worries, I sometimes don't know what to say myself, and I should know!

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,half-of-voters-support-uk-government-block-on-gender-bill

52% of Scots asked said uk gov were right to block gra bill 32% said they were wrong. Much more interestingly whilst 52% of snp voters said they should not have blocked 31% said they should. Probably why it's not helped independence polling

[He's here!]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/07/scottish-police-defy-nicola-sturgeon-trans-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

[Kato]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/07/scottish-police-defy-nicola-sturgeon-trans-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.In finding the 11 year old girl who is missing?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[WeeRussell]

In finding the 11 year old girl who is missing?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

The young girl is fairly local to me. Happy to reassure (for anyone that bizarrely would be in any doubt) that any feeling here is purely joy, gratitude, and relief at the lass being found safe and well, as opposed to linking any of the words used during efforts to find her to Nicola Sturgeon or her “difficulties”.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/07/scottish-police-defy-nicola-sturgeon-trans-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/house-cordoned-off-and-man-arrested-after-search-for-missing-11-year-old-girl-in-galashiels

No mention!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64557459


Again, no mention!!

https://planetradio.co.uk/borders/local/news/gattonside-police-search-lockdown/


This is getting ridiculous the number of news outlets missing the story!!!

[Kato]

The young girl is fairly local to me. Happy to reassure (for anyone that bizarrely would be in any doubt) that any feeling here is purely joy, gratitude, and relief at the lass being found safe and well, as opposed to linking any of the words used during efforts to find her to Nicola Sturgeon or her “difficulties”.That's brilliant, R.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/07/scottish-police-defy-nicola-sturgeon-trans-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

I can't read beyond the paywall but I've no idea what you are trying to do here.

[Stairway 2 7]

I can't read beyond the paywall but I've no idea what you are trying to do here.

Wasn't pay walled previously. Basically it said police Scotland are misgendering her as they are calling the kidnapper he, when they have identified as female for some years. Its the telegraph so could be rubbish, but I think that's roughly what it said

[Moulin Yarns]

Wasn't pay walled previously. Basically it said police Scotland are misgendering her as they are calling the kidnapper he, when they have identified as female for some years. Its the telegraph so could be rubbish, but I think that's roughly what it said

Other sources say that they are cross dressing transvestite.

Not one scottish source even identify him that I've seen so far.

[Glory Lurker]

Wasn't pay walled previously. Basically it said police Scotland are misgendering her as they are calling the kidnapper he, when they have identified as female for some years. Its the telegraph so could be rubbish, but I think that's roughly what it said

Who gives a flying one? Christ, the veins are bursting out the establishment's neck.

Should add my exasperation isn't aimed at you.

[Stairway 2 7]

Other sources say that they are cross dressing transvestite.

Not one scottish source even identify him that I've seen so far.

It's pretty much happening in real time. Some places naming him/her some not. Telegraph will be in bother if they have named her and its not. They also have tweets from her saying she's a female now.

It will all come out in the next few days so probably daft to speculate either way I suppose

[Stairway 2 7]

Who gives a flying one? Christ, the veins are bursting out the establishment's neck.

Should add my exasperation isn't aimed at you.

Yep it's just a beast and its probably in the wrong thread maybe.

[147lothian]

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQ

[Glory Lurker]

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQ

Whatever you've just tried to share is already down.

I can only judge then on your words. No empathy for folk dealing with trans decisions. Just acceptable collateral damage in the frenzied fight against the SNP?

[CropleyWasGod]

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQ

I lasted as long as it took her to claim that grass is an inanimate object.

[He's here!]

In finding the 11 year old girl who is missing?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

In bringing some consistency to the issue. IIRC Police Scotland are these days meant to record incidents according to the gender those involved identify as.

[He's here!]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/house-cordoned-off-and-man-arrested-after-search-for-missing-11-year-old-girl-in-galashiels

No mention!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64557459


Again, no mention!!

https://planetradio.co.uk/borders/local/news/gattonside-police-search-lockdown/


This is getting ridiculous the number of news outlets missing the story!!!

I imagine now that the 'individual' has been named we'll see the story across most of tomorrow's front pages.

[Kato]

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQIs the evidence for this trend just this one video. I thought the he/him that/thone stuff was a trend and more people don't bother with it than do.

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[Glory Lurker]

Daily Mail down south getting hot and bothered about something to do with CoE considering gender neutrality for god.

Front page. Main story.

So much of this is about the older demographic (who vote and who have the most money) freaking at change, and this headline is emblematic of that.

It all serves to marginalise trans folk more and more. We're probably at the same point in the progress of humanity on this island as we were with gays in the 70s. I am ashamed of that.

[Ozyhibby]

Daily Mail down south getting hot and bothered about something to do with CoE considering gender neutrality for god.

Front page. Main story.

So much of this is about the older demographic (who vote and who have the most money) freaking at change, and this headline is emblematic of that.

It all serves to marginalise trans folk more and more. We're probably at the same point in the progress of humanity on this island as we were with gays in the 70s. I am ashamed of that.

We should have a trans James Bond. [emoji23]


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[WeeRussell]

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQ

I don’t use til-tok, but isn’t that claim similar to saying people are starting to be racist on Facebook, which is bad news for non-racists? I.E it’s a social media platform with all sorts of ranging views, including unfortunate ones held by ignorant minorities.

Often those unfortunate ones are removed due to being inappropriate and harmful.