The Trans Rights Debate

[Stairway 2 7]

Scottish Government Minister Lorna Slater supports the prescribing of puberty blockers for children. Says it's allows the child time to decide what way they want to go.

You wouldn't let an under 16 vote, get married or have a tattoo as they are too young to decide. Madness you would let them do irreversible changes to their body

[LewysGot2]

You wouldn't let an under 16 vote, get married or have a tattoo as they are too young to decide. Madness you would let them do irreversible changes to their body

It's interesting because the law decides when we can do certain things with our life and health. It sets the age to legally drink based on the body of evidence from health research that those who start drinking earlier are more likely to endure medical consequences for beginning to consume alcohol before their body is physically mature. They're statistically more likely to end up with alcohol related health conditions. However, when the courts tried to assign an age of capacity to give meaningful consent to chemical intervention around puberty and gender, it was overturned on appeal. The outcome of the original Keira Bell case was that children under the age of 13 could not understand the implications of puberty blocking. Indeed, it said that until they were 16 there was still doubt that they'd fully understand what they were signing up to. Keira Bell reported she was signed up to puberty blockers after a 3 hour assessment. It was part of her case against Tavistock that this was inadequate.

The Bell case is heart breaking 💔

[He's here!]

Scottish Government Minister Lorna Slater supports the prescribing of puberty blockers for children. Says it's allows the child time to decide what way they want to go.

If that's true she's an even bigger bampot than I thought.

[LewysGot2]

Article written yesterday by a trans non-binary author who feels they cannot tolerate people getting their pronouns wrong now.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/misgendering-they-them-pronouns-nonbinary_n_6269a65de4b01131b11e407e?ncid=APPLENEW S00001

[500miles]

Article written yesterday by a trans non-binary author who feels they cannot tolerate people getting their pronouns wrong now.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/misgendering-they-them-pronouns-nonbinary_n_6269a65de4b01131b11e407e?ncid=APPLENEW S00001

One misspeak away from setting up a compound in the woods and giving fire and brimstone sermons about the outside world. Crazy.

[superfurryhibby]

:confused:
Scottish Government Minister Lorna Slater supports the prescribing of puberty blockers for children. Says it's allows the child time to decide what way they want to go.

I’d like to see a link to that claim.

Totally bonkers.

[James310]

:confused:

I’d like to see a link to that claim.

Totally bonkers.

https://twitter.com/lornaslater/status/1337483903846768644?t=idmd2gTQT748WhNVV0UT9g&s=19


"Puberty blockers do exactly that. Allow kids the chance to think and mature before making a life altering choice either way"

[He's here!]

:confused:

I’d like to see a link to that claim.

Totally bonkers.

Dangerous person to have been handed a ministerial role in exchange for propping up the SNP. She and Harvie are a crack(pot) pair.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/lornaslater/status/1337483903846768644?t=idmd2gTQT748WhNVV0UT9g&s=19


"Puberty blockers do exactly that. Allow kids the chance to think and mature before making a life altering choice either way"

Half wit. It doesn't just pause things, it irreversibly changes many different things

[147lothian]

https://twitter.com/lornaslater/status/1337483903846768644?t=idmd2gTQT748WhNVV0UT9g&s=19


"Puberty blockers do exactly that. Allow kids the chance to think and mature before making a life altering choice either way"

Your with the ideologically driven loons, who want to indoctrinate children into believing this garbage. Biological sex is real it's been with us from time immemorial. The idea that kids can take puberty blockers without there being any long term consequence is nonsense. There is a court order against kids taking them because they can't possibly understand what the long term consequences are.

[James310]

Your with the ideologically driven loons, who want to indoctrinate children into believing this garbage. Biological sex is real it's been with us from time immemorial. The idea that kids can take puberty blockers without there being any long term consequence is nonsense. There is a court order against kids taking them because they can't possibly understand what the long term consequences are.

You know that's what Lorna Slater said, not me?

[147lothian]

You know that's what Lorna Slater said, not me?

Why quote her when what she says goes against a court order?

[CropleyWasGod]

Why quote her when what she says goes against a court order?

If you mean the Keira Bell case, that was overturned by the Appeals Court. It's an English case, that is going to the Supreme Court,.

Edit. The Supreme Court have refused to hear the case.

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/supreme-court-refuses-application-for-appeal-in-puberty-blockers-case

[Stairway 2 7]

BREAKING⎜ Transgender swimmers in elite women's competition effectively banned by governing body - as new 'open' category created: Swimming's world governing body has voted to effectively ban transgender athletes from competing in women's elite races. VIA
@SkyNews

[He's here!]

BREAKING⎜ Transgender swimmers in elite women's competition effectively banned by governing body - as new 'open' category created: Swimming's world governing body has voted to effectively ban transgender athletes from competing in women's elite races. VIA
@SkyNews

The governing body deserve a lot of credit for this. At last, some grown-up decisions being made to ensure women's sport isn't rendered redundant.

[147lothian]

The governing body deserve a lot of credit for this.At last, some grown-up decisions being made to ensure women's sport isn't rendered redundant.

This is good news for sporty females, they must have been thinking what is the point of putting in all the hard work if a man can self identify as a women and take the gold medals.

http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ

[danhibees1875]

This is good news for sporty females, they must have been thinking what is the point of putting in all the hard work if a man can self identify as a women and take the gold medals.

http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ

My understanding was that it wasn't a simple case of a man going "right, I'm a girl now" and rocking up to the qualification tournaments etc the next day to compete against other girls.

They had to have been going through official change for a significant period of time, impacting their everyday life. It wasn't something they could only be/say for sake of sporting advantage.

Apologies if that's not what you meant anyway, but it's how it sounded in your post.

None of that is to say that it's the wrong decision. It feels correct on balance.

[Stairway 2 7]

My understanding was that it wasn't a simple case of a man going "right, I'm a girl now" and rocking up to the qualification tournaments etc the next day to compete against other girls.

They had to have been going through official change for a significant period of time, impacting their everyday life. It wasn't something they could only be/say for sake of sporting advantage.

Apologies if that's not what you meant anyway, but it's how it sounded in your post.

None of that is to say that it's the wrong decision. It feels correct on balance.

They could have went through puberty as a male which was the problem. They then always had a physical advantage regardless of further hormones ect after that.

Obviously the correct decision. Hopefully that will be the end of it as it is such a small issue to the hundreds of other problems trans people face

[danhibees1875]

They could have went through puberty as a male which was the problem. They then always had a physical advantage regardless of further hormones ect after that.

Obviously the correct decision. Hopefully that will be the end of it as it is such a small issue to the hundreds of other problems trans people face

Yep - that's why I ultimately agree with the decision.

My comment was around the phrasing used by the OP which made it sound like the current/old system was a lot more open to manipulation than I believe it to be.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yep - that's why I ultimately agree with the decision.

My comment was around the phrasing used by the OP which made it sound like the current/old system was a lot more open to manipulation than I believe it to be.

It doesn't matter about surgery or what you identify as, it's all about hormone level. Their testosterone has to be bellow a certain level for 12 months before an event. Of course like taking steroids or other substances this could technically be abused, I'd think it'd be unlikely

[147lothian]

Yep - that's why I ultimately agree with the decision.

My comment was around the phrasing used by the OP which made it sound like the current/old system was a lot more open to manipulation than I believe it to be.

If you check out the you tube attached in the OP bud, you will see that Lia Thomas went from ranked 462 in the male category to being the number 1 female, this is not because he/she became a better swimmer its because he/she entered a different category.

Obviously the checks and balances were not in place, because to count back as far as ranked 462 to becoming number 1 is unheard of in elite sport, this case is so clear cut that even trans people are questioning if it was all a plant to discredit transwomen in woman's sport.

If you look at him/her on the podium it really is like something out of a South Park episode.

[CropleyWasGod]

If you check out the you tube attached in the OP bud, you will see that Lia Thomas went from 462 in the male category to being the number 1 female, this is not because he became a better swimmer its because he entered a different category.

Obviously the checks and balances were not in place, because to count back as far as 462 to becoming number 1 is unheard of, this is case is so clear cut that even trans people are questioning if it was all a plant to discredit transwomen in woman's sport.

If you look at him on the podium it really is like something out of a South Park episode.

Him?

[Ozyhibby]

Good decision and surprised it’s taken them so long. I expect other sports bodies to follow suit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[147lothian]

Him?

Ok I'll edit this part no offence to anyone meant

[LewysGot2]

It doesn't matter about surgery or what you identify as, it's all about hormone level. Their testosterone has to be bellow a certain level for 12 months before an event. Of course like taking steroids or other substances this could technically be abused, I'd think it'd be unlikely

It's more than simply about hormone levels. Women aren't small men with less testosterone. The benefits of male puberty are never negated regardless of adult hormones being suppressed. The female skeleton, weight distribution, lung capacity, muscle density and biological functions associated with reproduction all impede ability to perform and train.

The length of time of waiting 24 months isn't necessarily an issue if you can compete at the Olympics in your 40s like Laurel Hubbard - twice the age of most of the field. The length of the career of a Trans Identifying athlete can be extended significantly because the advantages of male puberty allow it if competing in a female category. And, of course, they don't face the prospect of careers being paused for pregnancy and childbirth.

FINA's decision seems wise and fair. Sebastian Coe implied today IAAF will likely follow suit.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's more than simply about hormone levels. Women aren't small men with less testosterone. The benefits of male puberty are never negated regardless of adult hormones being suppressed. The female skeleton, weight distribution, lung capacity, muscle density and biological functions associated with reproduction all impede ability to perform and train.

The length of time of waiting 24 months isn't necessarily an issue if you can compete at the Olympics in your 40s like Laurel Hubbard - twice the age of most of the field. The length of the career of a Trans Identifying athlete can be extended significantly because the advantages of male puberty allow it if competing in a female category. And, of course, they don't face the prospect of careers being paused for pregnancy and childbirth.

FINA's decision seems wise and fair. Sebastian Coe implied today IAAF will likely follow suit.

I was answering the question of what it takes to complete in the Olympics and it simply comes down to the testosterone level. I agree with you and said on another post that that is unfair as if they have gone through puberty they will always have an advantage, regardless of testosterone level

[Moulin Yarns]

Women's hearts are also different to men's.

A pregnant woman can increase their heart and blood volumes by up to 50%. That's some advantage 😉

[danhibees1875]

It doesn't matter about surgery or what you identify as, it's all about hormone level. Their testosterone has to be bellow a certain level for 12 months before an event. Of course like taking steroids or other substances this could technically be abused, I'd think it'd be unlikely

:aok:

Generally speaking then, it's not something people can just enter into lightly and claim on a whim they are a woman in order to gain a competitive advantage is all I was getting at. It's part of a wider lifestyle change they'd be fairly committed to.

The competitive advantage that is gained is a separate argument, one that has now been addressed by the authorities (at least within swimming).

[LewysGot2]

Women's hearts are also different to men's.

A pregnant woman can increase their heart and blood volumes by up to 50%. That's some advantage 😉

Rachel Boyle is missing a trick...

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346

A tricky issue for sure.

[danhibees1875]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346

A tricky issue for sure.

Very complex. I'm sure there's a discussion to be had about how these things work - it's really just a continuation of the typical discussion around public spaces - but I'm not sure how suing them is the answer in this case.

[Stairway 2 7]

Very complex. I'm sure there's a discussion to be had about how these things work - it's really just a continuation of the typical discussion around public spaces - but I'm not sure how suing them is the answer in this case.

Would it be in the press if she just filed a complaint. Surely there is a line and coming to a female rape group still presenting as a man in male clothing is past that

[speedy_gonzales]

Would it be in the press if she just filed a complaint. Surely there is a line and coming to a female rape group still presenting as a man in male clothing is past that

Male clothing? Not being deliberately obtuse but if we're talking trousers & shirt/jumper then I'm sure most women would wear such garments, maybe not every day, but at some point. Unsure what the dress code for a rape support group would be?
Not all women have their hair or make-up "done" 24/7 either.

Going by the article, it sounds like this woman has had a very traumatic life, and being "forced" to discuss it candidly in front of people that make her uncomfortable isn't going to make her feel any better.
But, the other party in the story clearly has had a traumatic situation also (why else would they be there), where is their safe space, in a group of CIS men?

Unsure what the answer is but sounds like things could have been handled a lot better, starting with permission & agreement from those within the group.

[He's here!]

Male clothing? Not being deliberately obtuse but if we're talking trousers & shirt/jumper then I'm sure most women would wear such garments, maybe not every day, but at some point. Unsure what the dress code for a rape support group would be?
Not all women have their hair or make-up "done" 24/7 either.

Going by the article, it sounds like this woman has had a very traumatic life, and being "forced" to discuss it candidly in front of people that make her uncomfortable isn't going to make her feel any better.
But, the other party in the story clearly has had a traumatic situation also (why else would they be there), where is their safe space, in a group of CIS men?

Unsure what the answer is but sounds like things could have been handled a lot better, starting with permission & agreement from those within the group.

No question there are an increasing number of folk (the majority of them teenagers/young adults in my experience) who present as what I'd say is gender neutral in the way they dress/hairstyle etc. The impression I get from this case though it that the transgender woman presented to almost all intents and purposes as a man, an understandably unsettling experience for the others in attendance to deal with in a meeting of this nature . As you say, based on the facts presented, this was not well handled.

[superfurryhibby]

People with a ***** should not be part of a safe space or safe group for female victims of sexual abuse or sexual assault. I don’t care what they self identify as, it’s deeply wrong.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i think it's understandable why "Sarah" could have felt uncomfortable, but my first thought is what is the point in suing, will winning money make her feel a lot better, will suing them help them support others if having to pay out seriously affects the charity



apologies if misunderstood bbc article

[Pretty Boy]

i think it's understandable why "Sarah" could have felt uncomfortable, but my first thought is what is the point in suing, will winning money make her feel a lot better, will suing them help them support others if having to pay out seriously affects the charity



apologies if misunderstood bbc article

Could suing the charity not enable the decision to be used as a legal precedent in future cases if she is successful?

[CropleyWasGod]

i think it's understandable why "Sarah" could have felt uncomfortable, but my first thought is what is the point in suing, will winning money make her feel a lot better, will suing them help them support others if having to pay out seriously affects the charity



apologies if misunderstood bbc article


Could suing the charity not enable the decision to be used as a legal precedent in future cases if she is successful?

If her heart is in the right place, it's not about the money. And I would hope that a decent judge would set any damages at a minimal amount.

[He's here!]

Could suing the charity not enable the decision to be used as a legal precedent in future cases if she is successful?

Indeed. I'm making an assumption that's what's at the heart of her taking the legal route.

[He's here!]

https://news.sky.com/story/tom-daley-furious-at-fina-decision-to-ban-transgender-swimmers-from-elite-womens-competitions-12641281

Tom Daley is missing the point here IMHO.

[LewysGot2]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346

A tricky issue for sure.

How awful for her and shows where there are very real conflicts in this whole thing.


https://news.sky.com/story/tom-daley-furious-at-fina-decision-to-ban-transgender-swimmers-from-elite-womens-competitions-12641281

Tom Daley is missing the point here IMHO.

Simply because it doesn’t and will never affect him. Trans men aren’t going to rob him of glory.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Could suing the charity not enable the decision to be used as a legal precedent in future cases if she is successful?


fair point, i should have pointed out i wasn't thinking that she just wants a few ££ it's just i don't understand her actions here, i always think when someone is suing it normally relates to some monetary compensation, therefore if this is not about cash for whatever reason could she not maybe have just brought it to the publics attention and maybe it would have led to the charity taking her(and others) opinions about privacy in to consideration in future, start a petition etc.


If her heart is in the right place, it's not about the money. And I would hope that a decent judge would set any damages at a minimal amount.


lets hope so and PB is correct that it will at least highlight how awkward the girl must have felt and lead to a different approach from the charity

[147lothian]

https://news.sky.com/story/tom-daley-furious-at-fina-decision-to-ban-transgender-swimmers-from-elite-womens-competitions-12641281

Tom Daley is missing the point here IMHO.

Surely the point is that the reality of biological sex has to be acknowledged for woman's sport to exist and that it has to be a protected category, for biological woman only so that it can be a fair sport. There does seem to be a deep seated misogyny in all of this it's like he's saying, I don't care about what happens in woman's sport. Its only men's sport that counts.

The world's best female swimmer is turning the trans debate into some kind of clown show, take a look at this


https://youtu.be/_sgjc29QCGo

[He's here!]

How awful for her and shows where there are very real conflicts in this whole thing.



Simply because it doesn’t and will never affect him. Trans men aren’t going to rob him of glory.

Yes Sharon Davies, who has been a really strong voice on this issue, made that point about his misguided comments.

[superfurryhibby]

Surely the point is that the reality of biological sex has to be acknowledged for woman's sport to exist and that it has to be a protected category, for biological woman only so that it can be a fair sport. There does seem to be a deep seated misogyny in all of this it's like he's saying, I don't care about what happens in woman's sport. Its only men's sport that counts.

The world's best female swimmer is turning the trans debate into some kind of clown show, take a look at this


https://youtu.be/_sgjc29QCGo

I like satire and this hits the nail on the head.

What a mockery all of this is. It's part of a wider smokescreen that allows our "owners" to laugh as they rake it in as the ordinary pleb gets poorer and poorer.

9% inflation, 100% increases in energy prices, pathetic public sector pay rises, social housing crisis, deep rooted corruption in every walk of life, establishment paedophile cover ups, it's almost like the elite can do as they please. Meanwhile we are told that trans rights and self identification is a vital debate. It's taking the piss.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Cyclists claim trans riders still competing in British Cycling events - BBC Sport (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/62002890)

Two female cyclists claim that transgender athletes are still competing in British Cycling women's events.

They say they have lost out on ranking points and prize money to trans women.

British Cycling said: "Existing licence holders remain unaffected by the suspension of the policy, provided the requirements in place at the time of application were met."
However, the female cyclists who spoke to the BBC claim there was no mention of this before they complained and it's not specified in the original suspension statement on the organisations' official website.

[Hibbyradge]

I thought this was a good article on the subject.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/opinion/the-far-right-and-far-left-agree-on-one-thing-women-dont-count.html?referringSource=articleShare&fs=e&s=cl

[He's here!]

Interesting and potentially very significant ruling:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929

[Hibernia&Alba]

US Republican senator Josh Hawley is one of the lunatics who tried to stop the certification of Biden's win by Congress on January 6th 2021. He is also one of America's main advocates of the culture wars, including whipping up hysteria about transgender Americans. In a Senate hearing he crashed and burned as his insidious bigotry got shut down.


https://youtu.be/QzlczkYpX_w

[He's here!]

Tavistock childhood gender identity clinic to shut down:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62335665

[CropleyWasGod]

Tavistock childhood gender identity clinic to shut down.

..to be replaced by 2 new centres.

[Colr]

Surely the point is that the reality of biological sex has to be acknowledged for woman's sport to exist and that it has to be a protected category, for biological woman only so that it can be a fair sport. There does seem to be a deep seated misogyny in all of this it's like he's saying, I don't care about what happens in woman's sport. Its only men's sport that counts.

The world's best female swimmer is turning the trans debate into some kind of clown show, take a look at this


https://youtu.be/_sgjc29QCGo

This is especially important in relation to the massive efforts that are going in to encouraging women to get involved in sport and to stick at it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Surely the point is that the reality of biological sex has to be acknowledged for woman's sport to exist and that it has to be a protected category, for biological woman only so that it can be a fair sport. There does seem to be a deep seated misogyny in all of this it's like he's saying, I don't care about what happens in woman's sport. Its only men's sport that counts.

The world's best female swimmer is turning the trans debate into some kind of clown show, take a look at this


https://youtu.be/_sgjc29QCGo

Please tell me that is a spoof? PLEASE?

[He's here!]

Habitually outspoken stuff but much to agree with IMHO:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/good-riddance-to-the-tavistock#

[Colr]

Habitually outspoken stuff but much to agree with IMHO:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/good-riddance-to-the-tavistock#

Friend of mine works in mental health and says the Tavi was regarded as an utter sham. Mostly staffed by posh, chin stroking “therapists” with a sense of entitlement but dubious qualifications. It won’t be missed.

[LewysGot2]

https://twitter.com/JournalistJill/status/1555610933266890752?t=ftVqH_ZAV8bneAOIy5fTrQ&s=19

This is from Ireland - self ID in women's sport.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/JournalistJill/status/1555610933266890752?t=ftVqH_ZAV8bneAOIy5fTrQ&s=19

This is from Ireland - self ID in women's sport.

The team is an inclusive LGBTQ+ team. It was not an all female match. The LGBTQ+ team won, but it was always known that the team was 'mixed'.

https://reduxx.info/irish-lgbtq-inclusive-football-team-with-transgender-player-wins-womens-junior-final/

[LewysGot2]

The team is an inclusive LGBTQ+ team. It was not an all female match. The LGBTQ+ team won, but it was always known that the team was 'mixed'.

https://reduxx.info/irish-lgbtq-inclusive-football-team-with-transgender-player-wins-womens-junior-final/

In the Ladies Gaelic Football Junior J Shield...so women's sport.

[Moulin Yarns]

In the Ladies Gaelic Football Junior J Shield...

Yes. The article from a 'pro-female' website that I linked has a broader article about it.

If anything it's the ruling body that might be at fault for allowing the obviously adult person to play in a junior tournament

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/community/gaa-first-lgbt-club-na-gaeil-aeracha

[Stairway 2 7]

Surely sport is about seeing you push yourself to the limits. What enjoyment can that big bald trans woman get from beating girls in a very physical sport. Thankfully more and more sports aren't allowing this, we'll look back and shake our heads at the fact this happened

[LewysGot2]

Surely sport is about seeing you push yourself to the limits. What enjoyment can that big bald trans woman get from beating girls in a very physical sport. Thankfully more and more sports aren't allowing this, we'll look back and shake our heads at the fact this happened

Womens sport is about increasing participation for females in an environment where they feel safe, are not disheartened or discouraged. Increasing female participation in sport is good for their health and well-being and benefits in terms of long term health outcomes/impact on the health service. It's about more than the winning. But just being able to win at all will help encourage participation.

Being safe is important too.

[147lothian]

Womens sport is about increasing participation for females in an environment where they feel safe, are not disheartened or discouraged. Increasing female participation in sport is good for their health and well-being and benefits in terms of long term health outcomes/impact on the health service. It's about more than the winning. But just being able to win at all will help encourage participation.

Being safe is important too.

This is exactly why both the rugby league and rugby union have banned transwomen, ie men who identify as woman from taking part in woman's rugby. A common sense approach to keep women safe and encourage more females take up the sport

[Colr]

Notice Putin picking up the Daily Mail and Telegraph’s obsession with ‘wokery’ and trans issues.

More likely, though, he has been feeding them their lines on these subjects for a couple of years!

[He's here!]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-neutral-joan-of-arc-at-globe-qn5thkz5n

Is rewriting Joan of Arc as not female really progress?!

[Stairway 2 7]

https://archive.ph/jgRD7

Edinburgh University urged to review ‘dangerous’ policy on trans students

[LewysGot2]

https://reduxx.info/put-terfs-in-their-place-trans-activist-appointed-to-office-by-scottish-lawmakers/

[CropleyWasGod]

https://reduxx.info/put-terfs-in-their-place-trans-activist-appointed-to-office-by-scottish-lawmakers/

Given the source of that piece, I'd be more interested in a more balanced view. One that, for example, doesn't use "he/him" would be a good start 🙂

I've followed this story on Twitter this week, and it's really difficult to get that balance. Everything out there seems to be polarised.

[Stairway 2 7]

Given the source of that piece, I'd be more interested in a more balanced view. One that, for example, doesn't use "he/him" would be a good start 🙂

I've followed this story on Twitter this week, and it's really difficult to get that balance. Everything out there seems to be polarised.

https://mobile.twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1559612403498852354

Joanna cherry shared the clip too and criticised the actions

[LewysGot2]

Given the source of that piece, I'd be more interested in a more balanced view. One that, for example, doesn't use "he/him" would be a good start 🙂

I've followed this story on Twitter this week, and it's really difficult to get that balance. Everything out there seems to be polarised.

Regardless of the source those quotes and actions attributed to someone in an office purportedly fighting for equality and equity seems at odds with concept of professionalism if nothing else…

[Stairway 2 7]

Given the source of that piece, I'd be more interested in a more balanced view. One that, for example, doesn't use "he/him" would be a good start 🙂

I've followed this story on Twitter this week, and it's really difficult to get that balance. Everything out there seems to be polarised.

Ps I agree with you about the referring to her as a man. Also I noticed at the bottom they reference themselves as feminists which is fine. But also they say child protection. Out of order I think where's the link to changing gender and child molestation, shocking

[superfurryhibby]

Given the source of that piece, I'd be more interested in a more balanced view. One that, for example, doesn't use "he/him" would be a good start ��

I've followed this story on Twitter this week, and it's really difficult to get that balance. Everything out there seems to be polarised.

What did you think of his threatening behaviour towards women. He’s a big guy behaving aggressively and is as ideologically motivated as the women who oppose his views.

I would urge anyone interested to look at what the article says and watch the footage. If that was directed at another group, it would surely be a “hate crime”? Appalling behaviour.

[Since90+2]

Regardless of the source those quotes and actions attributed to someone in an office purportedly fighting for equality and equity seems at odds with concept of professionalism if nothing else…

Yip.

[CropleyWasGod]

According to Wings, she has now been suspended by the SNP.

[danhibees1875]

Given the source of that piece, I'd be more interested in a more balanced view. One that, for example, doesn't use "he/him" would be a good start 🙂

I've followed this story on Twitter this week, and it's really difficult to get that balance. Everything out there seems to be polarised.

It's all very complex, but that's something that puts me off someone's opinions/thoughts from the get go. Deliberately giving someone the wrong pronoun in an attempt to make some sort of point. Adds nothing to the debate and shows the author up as classless.

[superfurryhibby]

It's all very complex, but that's something that puts me off someone's opinions/thoughts from the get go. Deliberately giving someone the wrong pronoun in an attempt to make some sort of point. Adds nothing to the debate and shows the author up as classless.

I think that is the whole point. He is a man, end of.

What was classless was the guy's intimidation tactics at a protest. Running up to someone, much smaller than yourself, and screaming witch in their face is appalling.

We have to also consider the language used in terms of hate crime, as well as aggression and intimidation. The very argument used by proponents of gender self identification should also apply here. Calling a woman a witch in this context is a very loaded comment in the context of feminist protest and is at the very least indicative of the guys underlying misogyny.

[Stairway 2 7]

Women are getting a raw deal right now

@antibarbie
Fringe venue
@Gildedballoon
made one toilet “cubicles and urinals” and another “gender neutral”, so in effect doubling the male provision. I was faced with an actual man, not a trans identifying one, just an entitled one, coming out of cubicle the “GN” one. As victim of SA these facilities make me feel unsafe, but I’m expected to end my boundaries where male feelings begin.

[Keith_M]

...

What was classless was the guy's intimidation tactics at a protest. Running up to someone, much smaller than yourself, and screaming witch in their face is appalling.

We have to also consider the language used in terms of hate crime, as well as aggression and intimidation. The very argument used by proponents of gender self identification should also apply here. Calling a woman a witch in this context is a very loaded comment in the context of feminist protest and is at the very least indicative of the guys underlying misogyny.


I've left out the first part of your comment... as it's not for me to say one way or the other... but I totally agree with the rest of it.

If this person wants to reduce the amount of unacceptable and discriminatory behaviour, they might want to start by looking in a mirror.



On a slightly more political note: What were the SNP thinking when they employed this person?

:rolleyes:

[danhibees1875]

I think that is the whole point. He is a man, end of.

What was classless was the guy's intimidation tactics at a protest. Running up to someone, much smaller than yourself, and screaming witch in their face is appalling.

We have to also consider the language used in terms of hate crime, as well as aggression and intimidation. The very argument used by proponents of gender self identification should also apply here. Calling a woman a witch in this context is a very loaded comment in the context of feminist protest and is at the very least indicative of the guys underlying misogyny.

Maybe I've mistaken something here, but I think she wishes to referred to as "she" - that's the point. Deliberately going against those wishes is unnecessary and poor behaviour.

I'm not talking about the actual incident.

[CropleyWasGod]

Women are getting a raw deal right now

@antibarbie
Fringe venue
@Gildedballoon
made one toilet “cubicles and urinals” and another “gender neutral”, so in effect doubling the male provision. I was faced with an actual man, not a trans identifying one, just an entitled one, coming out of cubicle the “GN” one. As victim of SA these facilities make me feel unsafe, but I’m expected to end my boundaries where male feelings begin.

Bit silly from the GB. There are gender-neutral, or all-gender, toilets in the Queen's Hall, Summerhall, Pleasance and Burrell Collection. These are places I've been in recently, so can't say if this is widespread.

[Stairway 2 7]

Bit silly from the GB. There are gender-neutral, or all-gender, toilets in the Queen's Hall, Summerhall, Pleasance and Burrell Collection. These are places I've been in recently, so can't say if this is widespread.

Do these places also have male and female only toilets. It's OK having neutral toilets but not if it's at the price of female toilets

[CropleyWasGod]

Do these places also have male and female only toilets. It's OK having neutral toilets but not if it's at the price of female toilets

Most of them have those facilities as permanent, with no separate M/F ones. The only difference is that the Pleasance also has a temporary portaloo, with M/F. Presumably that will get removed after the Festival, leaving the permanent neutral ones for the students etc.

Edit. Actually, the Burrell has 3 separate facilities. Male, female and all-genders.

[Stairway 2 7]

Most of them have those facilities as permanent, with no separate M/F ones. The only difference is that the Pleasance also has a temporary portaloo, with M/F. Presumably that will get removed after the Festival, leaving the permanent neutral ones for the students etc.

Edit. Actually, the Burrell has 3 separate facilities. Male, female and all-genders.

The Pleasance has male and female too. There is very few neutral toilets in the unis 800+ buildings. All new builds will be going with male female and neutral, which is probably right

[superfurryhibby]

Maybe I've mistaken something here, but I think she wishes to referred to as "she" - that's the point. Deliberately going against those wishes is unnecessary and poor behaviour.

I'm not talking about the actual incident.

It's a very loaded issue, particularly when you are an activist? Maybe less so when you are Joe or Jo Bloggs.

I wonder, if a white skinned person, started calling themselves black, whilst accusing others of discrimination because they see and point out the obvious (that they are not) is their view the only thing that matters?

Not sure if that's a useful analogy, but it springs to mind.

There's a lot at stake here. Earlier in this thread I posted about Edinburgh Rape Crisis and intrusion of a man (who self identifies as a woman) into that service, which is a protected safe space for women. That "safe space" issue takes precedence over an individuals right to assert their self identification in my view. It's close to my heart and has had a direct impact on someone I know.

I'm all for people being able to undergo gender reassignment surgery, with the appropriate provisos and checks etc. However, I'm intolerant of aggressive misogyny and the undermining of women's rights.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Pleasance has male and female too. There is very few neutral toilets in the unis 800+ buildings. All new builds will be going with male female and neutral, which is probably right

Can't say I saw any M/F ones. My weak bladder means I have been in a few different ones 😁..at least 3 locations in the Courtyard area. Happy to be corrected about the wider area, though.

Agreed about the new builds.

[Stairway 2 7]

Can't say I saw any M/F ones. My weak bladder means I have been in a few different ones 😁..at least 3 locations in the Courtyard area. Happy to be corrected about the wider area, though.

Agreed about the new builds.

Sorry speaking about inside. There's alot of work retrofitting toilets to be unisex on campuses. They are really good. Each cubicle has toilet, sink handryer so safety isn't an issue, not that it probably ever was.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry speaking about inside. There's alot of work retrofitting toilets to be unisex on campuses. They are really good. Each cubicle has toilet, sink handryer so safety isn't an issue, not that it probably ever was.

Good to hear.

I'm a big fan of cultural changes being slow and natural, so that society has a chance to adjust. That process often starts with younger people, and what you describe fits in with that.

[He's here!]

According to Wings, she has now been suspended by the SNP.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/home-of-the-deranged/

Adamson sounds like a bona fide nut job.

[147lothian]

https://reduxx.info/put-terfs-in-their-place-trans-activist-appointed-to-office-by-scottish-lawmakers/

This is all very similar to the trans activists who formed a circle round the Emmeline Pankhurst statue in Manchester this year to prevent women from gathering there, when masked men who would claim to be on the 'right side of history' were screaming fascist **** and ****ing TERF's at the mainly middle aged women. Highlighting the deep misogyny that exists within the trans movement.

It is easy to see why the trans activists have real hatred towards women who stand up for women's sex based rights, it's because this highlights the fact that there are only two sexes men and women and that biological sex is real, so women's spaces needs to be protected so that men can't enter.

It seems like the only thing trans activists campaign for with the tired old manta transwomen are women is for the rights of men who identify as women to enter women's spaces this could be women's sport, women's changing rooms, women's prisons, rape crisis center's or women's toilets. This highlights the conflict between women's sex based rights and trans rights.

[He's here!]

https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-not-fair-all-protect-women-s-sport-furious-judy-murray-reacts-transgender-golfer-qualifying-lpga-tour-card

Judy Murray gets the JK Rowling treatment for expressing a perfectly reasonable view.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-not-fair-all-protect-women-s-sport-furious-judy-murray-reacts-transgender-golfer-qualifying-lpga-tour-card

Judy Murray gets the JK Rowling treatment for expressing a perfectly reasonable view.

Ridiculous. Golf is up there with one of the sports that will clearly benefit from someone going through male puberty. A shame on the female that loses a tour card because of this

[Moulin Yarns]

Ridiculous. Golf is up there with one of the sports that will clearly benefit from someone going through male puberty. A shame on the female that loses a tour card because of this

I'm **** at golf, I'm sure JK would beat me.

[Iain G]

I'm **** at golf, I'm sure JK would beat me.

Well am sure she plays with magical balls... 😁

[Moulin Yarns]

Ridiculous. Golf is up there with one of the sports that will clearly benefit from someone going through male puberty. A shame on the female that loses a tour card because of this

Is golf not a game of skill rather than strength?

[hibsbollah]

Is golf not a game of skill rather than strength?

Quidditch anyone?

[Stairway 2 7]

Is golf not a game of skill rather than strength?

No. Hence although some have tried like Annika Sorenstamand Michelle wie, to make the cut in a few male tournaments they have never managed. Men drive much further due to obvious strength difference. Male tournaments are open so why don't trans athletes try to compete in that. Probably because they wouldn't be able to make it, so take a place of a female to be professional

[Moulin Yarns]

No. Hence although some have tried like Annika Sorenstamand Michelle wie, to make the cut in a few male tournaments they have never managed. Men drive much further due to obvious strength difference. Male tournaments are open so why don't trans athletes try to compete in that. Probably because they wouldn't be able to make it, so take a place of a female to be professional

You do realise that Hailey Davidson also failed to get through the third round against women? She wasn't in the top 106!!



Davidson shot a +3 over three rounds at the Stage I qualifier at Mission Hills Country Club in Rancho Mirage, Calif. The cut was -2. 106 female golfers shot -2 or better, each of them at least 5 strokes better than Davidson.



So while people are yelling about trans athletes taking spots away from other women, it was the cisgender women themselves who voted to allow trans athletes in the LPGA.


And it's not all about distance, all the advances in golf balls and clubs have made the game of golf rediculously easy to get distance, just as well skill is involved as well.

[Stairway 2 7]

You do realise that Hailey Davidson also failed to get through the third round against women? She wasn't in the top 106!!








And it's not all about distance, all the advances in golf balls and clubs have made the game of golf rediculously easy to get distance, just as well skill is involved as well.

She's through to the qualifier tour and will get a tour place is she finishes high enough.
And if you are saying you think males don't have an advantage playing golf, then I believe you are saying something you don't believe is true just to prove a point frankly.

[superfurryhibby]

Is golf not a game of skill rather than strength?

Makes you wonder why top female golfers don't compete on the far more lucrative men's tour?

I think the answer is that they either aren't good enough or that a man's natural strength gives them a massive advantage.

[LewysGot2]

Is golf not a game of skill rather than strength?

Aye thats why there’s tees for men and tees for females…you’re thinking of darts

[LewysGot2]

https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-not-fair-all-protect-women-s-sport-furious-judy-murray-reacts-transgender-golfer-qualifying-lpga-tour-card

Judy Murray gets the JK Rowling treatment for expressing a perfectly reasonable view.

Along with ageism and sexism…after all she’s “only Andy’s old mum” what right has she to comment on this…

[500miles]

You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

[LewysGot2]

You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

Why don’t you need to?

[He's here!]

You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

What lack of quality female players? The quality of the women's game is higher than ever.

I can only assume you're not a golfer/ golfers tho if you think there's no need for separate men's and women's games.

[500miles]

What lack of quality female players? The quality of the women's game is higher than ever.

I can only assume you're not a golfer/ golfers tho if you think there's no need for separate men's and women's games.

Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

And no, I'm not a golfer, so iam thoroughly enjoying the opportunity to diminish any aspect of it!

[Stairway 2 7]

Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

No they can't hit as far from the tee. That's why in tournaments women hit from from front tee men from the back. It's misogyny to say they just aren't skillful enough. Some are unbelievably skillful but will never be able to drive like men

[LewysGot2]

Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

And no, I'm not a golfer, so iam thoroughly enjoying the opportunity to diminish any aspect of it!

Quality?

It's not that. But then you've conceded you've got an agenda...

[He's here!]

Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

And no, I'm not a golfer, so iam thoroughly enjoying the opportunity to diminish any aspect of it!

No is the answer to your question. As has already been explained the women play shorter courses - or the same courses but from women's tees.

Bemused why you would take pleasure in diminishing a sport you know nothing about. I wouldn't call myself a regular golfer but I've played enough to appreciate the phenomenal skill required to become a top player, male or female.

[superfurryhibby]

Along with ageism and sexism…after all she’s “only Andy’s old mum” what right has she to comment on this…

The comments on Twatter about Judy Murray's views are indicative of the kind of censorship happy, lunatic fringe gone mainstream, extremism with fascist undertones I associate with the more sinister proponents of gender self identification.

If you don't share their views, then you must be transphobic. Which is clearly stereotyping, simplistic and often deeply misogynistic.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/golf-gender-neutral-tee-system-set-to-attract-new-players-at-cheshire-course-12479539?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%2 51%24s&aoh=16614127232033&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2Fgolf-gender-neutral-tee-system-set-to-attract-new-players-at-cheshire-course-12479539


https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/what-are-gender-neutral-tees




Sounds like a good idea to encourage new golfers.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/golf-gender-neutral-tee-system-set-to-attract-new-players-at-cheshire-course-12479539?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%2 51%24s&aoh=16614127232033&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2Fgolf-gender-neutral-tee-system-set-to-attract-new-players-at-cheshire-course-12479539


https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/what-are-gender-neutral-tees




Sounds like a good idea to encourage new golfers.

To the original point if your saying someone like the great Annika Sorenstam never made the cut in the mens game when she tried, is down to lack of skill and not also physical disadvantaged. Then I think your incredibly misogynistic and downplaying the genius of some of the great female golfers

Someone like bryson dechambeau is showing that the game is going away from skill somewhat and you can have an advantage just by being able to blooter it further than the rest

[CropleyWasGod]

I mentioned on the Gigs thread that I went to see Ezra Furman the other night. The gig is still ringing in my ears, for a few reasons.

I love her music, and her lyrics. That, of course, is subjective, and not everyone will like her. However, what really struck me was her attitude and stage presence. She reminded me of an early David Bowie, when his sexuality was the talk of the classroom. Ezra had a similar feel.... no overkill, just "I'm here. I am being me. Like me or don't like me."

In that light, there were many trans people in the room, most of whom were young. Just as Bowie was an inspiration to young gay men in the early 70's, so Ezra is to young trans men and women now.

Also, there was a feeling of rebellion. She evoked the spirit of Patti Smith, musically and emotionally; indeed, she finished with Because The Night.

Whilst there is belligerence at both polarised extremes of the Trans debate, which will continue no doubt, what the other night reassured me of was that the younger generation have the power and the inclination to increase the tolerance and acceptance of the trans community, just as mine did with LGB rights.

For all those reasons, I left that gig with the broadest smile on my face.

[147lothian]

You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

Do you mean that as female's can't hit the ball as far they are just not up to the male standard?

[500miles]

Do you mean that as female's can't hit the ball as far they are just not up to the male standard?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYE0aig

I didn't mean either really, I meant the only reason there would be to split the game is if there is an innate difference in strength which would impact the game, or the pool of female players is comparatively small which tends to lead a lack of quality, which means women would need thier own competitions to ensure they are publicly represented and not swalled up by the much greater number of elite male players. It has been since pointed out that women play smaller courses due to shorter drives which is fair enough, and indicates to me that sex segregation is important.

And also, as someone in the building industry, golf course patter has ruined my life and I shall seek to diminish it at every turn!

[superfurryhibby]

I mentioned on the Gigs thread that I went to see Ezra Furman the other night. The gig is still ringing in my ears, for a few reasons.

I love her music, and her lyrics. That, of course, is subjective, and not everyone will like her. However, what really struck me was her attitude and stage presence. She reminded me of an early David Bowie, when his sexuality was the talk of the classroom. Ezra had a similar feel.... no overkill, just "I'm here. I am being me. Like me or don't like me."

In that light, there were many trans people in the room, most of whom were young. Just as Bowie was an inspiration to young gay men in the early 70's, so Ezra is to young trans men and women now.

Also, there was a feeling of rebellion. She evoked the spirit of Patti Smith, musically and emotionally; indeed, she finished with Because The Night.

Whilst there is belligerence at both polarised extremes of the Trans debate, which will continue no doubt, what the other night reassured me of was that the younger generation have the power and the inclination to increase the tolerance and acceptance of the trans community, just as mine did with LGB rights.

For all those reasons, I left that gig with the broadest smile on my face.


That's an interesting post. Music has power to connect people, Anonhi, the artist behind Anthony and the Johnsons, has been directly paving the way for Ezra these past 20 years or more.

In terms of tolerance and acceptance, this thread seems to show that there is a clear recognition of trans rights. However, the tolerance ceases when the extremist fringes of that movement want to trample over the rights of others, namely women. The sinister agenda of misogyny and the anti democratic rhetoric of a lunatic fringe is only serving to undermine the wider cause. What I find heartening is that people on a football forum are well enough informed to see through the nonsense and make clear and reasonable distinctions.

[147lothian]

That's an interesting post. Music has power to connect people, Anonhi, the artist behind Anthony and the Johnsons, has been directly paving the way for Ezra these past 20 years or more.

In terms of tolerance and acceptance, this thread seems to show that there is a clear recognition of trans rights. However, the tolerance ceases when the extremist fringes of that movement want to trample over the rights of others, namely women. The sinister agenda of misogyny and the anti democratic rhetoric of a lunatic fringe is only serving to undermine the wider cause. What I find heartening is that people on a football forum are well enough informed to see through the nonsense and make clear and reasonable distinctions.

Well said, I totally agree, this video shows that many trans people just want to get on with their life's and are not happy about the extremists who say you have to be ok with ruining women's sport and steroids in children or your a transphobe, it's counterproductive to actual trans people.


http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ

[Hibernia&Alba]

"I don't find them attractive, they're just confusing."

Alan Partridge.

[He's here!]

I didn't mean either really, I meant the only reason there would be to split the game is if there is an innate difference in strength which would impact the game, or the pool of female players is comparatively small which tends to lead a lack of quality, which means women would need thier own competitions to ensure they are publicly represented and not swalled up by the much greater number of elite male players. It has been since pointed out that women play smaller courses due to shorter drives which is fair enough, and indicates to me that sex segregation is important.

And also, as someone in the building industry, golf course patter has ruined my life and I shall seek to diminish it at every turn!

I had no idea the building industry was such a hotbed of golf chat. Hard hats and hi-viz vests cast aside on Friday afternoons in a race for the first tee..

[He's here!]

I mentioned on the Gigs thread that I went to see Ezra Furman the other night. The gig is still ringing in my ears, for a few reasons.

I love her music, and her lyrics. That, of course, is subjective, and not everyone will like her. However, what really struck me was her attitude and stage presence. She reminded me of an early David Bowie, when his sexuality was the talk of the classroom. Ezra had a similar feel.... no overkill, just "I'm here. I am being me. Like me or don't like me."

In that light, there were many trans people in the room, most of whom were young. Just as Bowie was an inspiration to young gay men in the early 70's, so Ezra is to young trans men and women now.

Also, there was a feeling of rebellion. She evoked the spirit of Patti Smith, musically and emotionally; indeed, she finished with Because The Night.

Whilst there is belligerence at both polarised extremes of the Trans debate, which will continue no doubt, what the other night reassured me of was that the younger generation have the power and the inclination to increase the tolerance and acceptance of the trans community, just as mine did with LGB rights.

For all those reasons, I left that gig with the broadest smile on my face.

Nice post and one that rings true re a lot of the younger generation. I'd say, tho, that there's only one polarised extreme in this debate - unless the likes of JKR and Judy Murray are considered extremists for pointing out biology as a factor.

[archie]

I had no idea the building industry was such a hotbed of golf chat. Hard hats and hi-viz vests cast aside on Friday afternoons in race for the first tee..You're not kidding. I live near a golf course. On an unexpected sunny day the car park is rammed with workies vans. All called away on an emergency no doubt!

[147lothian]

Nice post and one that rings true re a lot of the younger generation. I'd say, tho, that there's only one polarised extreme in this debate - unless the likes of JKR and Judy Murray are considered extremists for pointing out biology as a factor.

There is only one polarized extreme in this video and that is clearly the misogynistic men who are beating up women, unless anyone thinks that the women are extremists for campaigning for female spaces to be protected spaces for females only, so that men can't enter?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=5DFv8OaYXQI

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63162533

Nicola Sturgeon: Destroyer of women's rights.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63162533

Nicola Sturgeon: Destroyer of women's rights.

Rowling is pipin hoat, pay her no attention


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63162533

Nicola Sturgeon: Destroyer of women's rights.

"The proposed new law would make it easier for people to be legally recognised as their preferred gender and broaden the official definition of what it means to be trans.

Anyone aged 16 or over who has lived in their "acquired gender" for at least three months would be eligible to apply.

A medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria would no longer be required, removing the need for doctors' reports.

It remains a hotly contested issue, however, with critics saying "self identification" would undermine the safety of women-only spaces. JK Rowling has previously argued the new law would harm the most vulnerable women.

Ms Rowling tweeted: "I stand in solidarity with @ForWomenScot and all women protesting and speaking outside the Scottish Parliament. #NoToSelfID."

Well said JK Rowling. The forelock tugging, all bowing and scrapping, Sturgeon is making a big error with this pish.

[Mr Grieves]

I see transgender hate crimes increased by 56% with social media discussion identified as a factor in the rise. But, aye, well done JK, spot on tweets to your 14 million followers :rolleyes:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-63157965.amp

[Stairway 2 7]

I see transgender hate crimes increased by 56% with social media discussion identified as a factor in the rise. But, aye, well done JK, spot on tweets to your 14 million followers :rolleyes:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-63157965.amp

She's not being anti trans she's being pro women. Women have it tough enough without women's only spaces going, women's sport being compromised and the word woman being erased in many cases. It's a man's world

[Ozyhibby]

Do they already have these laws in Ireland? I’m sure I read that somewhere? If so, has there been a decrease in woman’s safety there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Do they already have these laws in Ireland? I’m sure I read that somewhere? If so, has there been a decrease in woman’s safety there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's the same debates and demonstrations as here, Irish rugby just banned people born as males from playing with women.

The way I see it as we need to listen to women it's more misogyny to not. In every poll women don't want people born male to be in women's only spaces. Why should men say tough. If the debate was taken away from women only spaces and sport, I think 90% would be on the same page

[CropleyWasGod]

Do they already have these laws in Ireland? I’m sure I read that somewhere? If so, has there been a decrease in woman’s safety there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They do, as well as 30-odd other countries.

The impact on related violence in those countries doesn't seem to be a major issue on either side of the debate here, although I'm happy to be corrected if I've missed it. As with a lot of similar issues, evidence gets lost in the ideology.

[Mr Grieves]

She's not being anti trans she's being pro women. Women have it tough enough without women's only spaces going, women's sport being compromised and the word woman being erased in many cases. It's a man's world

So by that logic Sturgeon, a woman btw, is being anti-women?

Shona Robison, another woman btw, is anti-women?

And don't get me started on the irony of a pro-women woman personally attacking another woman.

[Stairway 2 7]

So by that logic Sturgeon, a woman btw, is being anti-women?

Shona Robison, another woman btw, is anti-women?

And don't get me started on the irony of a pro-women woman personally attacking another woman.

It isn't listening to the will of the majority of women. Women like Joanne cherry are bombed from the front if they disagree, so why would they not tow the line.

[Stairway 2 7]

To be honest we could save the debate and click back either 5 or say 10 pages and it's on repeat. Everyone thinks trans abuse is vile, most want more rights for trans. People are split on female only spaces and sport and that is pretty much it on repeat

[Moulin Yarns]

There's the same debates and demonstrations as here, Irish rugby just banned people born as males from playing with women.

The way I see it as we need to listen to women it's more misogyny to not. In every poll women don't want people born male to be in women's only spaces. Why should men say tough. If the debate was taken away from women only spaces and sport, I think 90% would be on the same page

It only seems to be on here that women only spaces is at the centre of the debate.

[Ozyhibby]

To be honest we could save the debate and click back either 5 or say 10 pages and it's on repeat. Everyone thinks trans abuse is vile, most want more rights for trans. People are split on female only spaces and sport and that is pretty much it on repeat

And I still think it’s an issue that the majority of the public ignore and don’t really care about. I doubt there are many votes in it either way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

And I still think it’s an issue that the majority of the public ignore and don’t really care about. I doubt there are many votes in it either way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most definitely don't. The biggest clash is between trans activists and lesbian and feminist groups.

[He's here!]

And I still think it’s an issue that the majority of the public ignore and don’t really care about. I doubt there are many votes in it either way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's got nothing to do with votes. It's about expressing justifiable concern about a highly contentious piece of legislation - the price the SNP have paid for bringing the toxic Scottish Greens on board for the sake of a majority.

Rowling is putting her considerable clout to good use here to give this issue a much-needed higher profile.

[Mr Grieves]

It isn't listening to the will of the majority of women. .

Is there evidence of this?

[McIntosh]

It's got nothing to do with votes. It's about expressing justifiable concern about a highly contentious piece of legislation - the price the SNP have paid for bringing the toxic Scottish Greens on board for the sake of a majority.

Rowling is putting her considerable clout to good use here to give this issue a much-needed higher profile.

:top marks

[Stairway 2 7]

Is there evidence of this?

The last two polls show women are split down the middle roughly on whether it should be easier to change. Most oppose the time you have to spend in the other body dropping from 2 years to 6 months. Most oppose them using single sex spaces and playing female sport.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60214574.amp

[Ozyhibby]

The last two polls show women are split down the middle roughly on whether it should be easier to change. Most oppose the time you have to spend in the other body dropping from 2 years to 6 months. Most oppose them using single sex spaces and playing female sport.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60214574.amp

I don’t think the law on using single sex spaces changes with the GRA?
I agree on sport but I don’t think the GRA deals with this at all? It leaves it to sports bodies?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

I don’t think the law on using single sex spaces changes with the GRA?
I agree on sport but I don’t think the GRA deals with this at all? It leaves it to sports bodies?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's covered by the Equality Act, AIUI.

[superfurryhibby]

So by that logic Sturgeon, a woman btw, is being anti-women?

Shona Robison, another woman btw, is anti-women?

And don't get me started on the irony of a pro-women woman personally attacking another woman.

What do you think about the irony of a man being the head of a woman only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh ?

[Ozyhibby]

What do you think about the irony of a man being the head of a woman only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh ?

Is that made possible by the GRA?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

What do you think about the irony of a man being the head of a woman only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh ?

This place?


https://www.ercc.scot/welcome-to-mridul-wadhwa-our-new-ceo/

[Stairway 2 7]

This place?


https://www.ercc.scot/welcome-to-mridul-wadhwa-our-new-ceo/

Yes the one that pushed against allowing females who had been raped, to see a person born a female only. Also said rape survivors should be challenged on their views. Crazy decisions like this distracts from the real issues

The times

THE Scottish Greens have defended the head of a rape crisis centre who said “bigoted” survivors should have their “unacceptable beliefs” challenged as part of their recovery.

Mridul Wadhwa, chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, said people would not truly recover from trauma unless they addressed any prejudices as “therapy is political”.*

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes the one that pushed against allowing females who had been raped, to see a person born a female only. Also said rape survivors should be challenged on their views. Crazy decisions like this distracts from the real issues

The times

THE Scottish Greens have defended the head of a rape crisis centre who said “bigoted” survivors should have their “unacceptable beliefs” challenged as part of their recovery.

Mridul Wadhwa, chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, said people would not truly recover from trauma unless they addressed any prejudices as “therapy is political”.*

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

[archie]

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.Sorry I need a bit of help here. Is this sarcasm?

[superfurryhibby]

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

The head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19509343.outcry-plan-educate-bigoted-rape-survivors-trans-rights/

I suppose it depends on your definition of good. Personally, I found his statement deeply offensive and dangerous



Wadhwa has a long history of securing positions allocated specifically for women, as detailed on The Glinner Update, including doing so deceitfully. Moreover, while working as a manager at the Forth Valley Rape Crisis Centre, Wadhwa participated in an interview in April 2019 with The Student newspaper. When asked if a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager, Wadhwa answered, with no hint of irony: I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence. Our workforce is reserved for women only.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/rape-crisis-centre-selects-male-as-ceo-despite-position-being-open-to-women-only/

[Stairway 2 7]

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

Fighting against women no. Why would she be bothered if some women want to be seen by a biological woman after they have been raped. They don't need re-educated they need compassion and their wishes met at the worst point in their life

[Ozyhibby]

Fighting against women no. Why would she be bothered if some women want to be seen by a biological woman after they have been raped. They don't need re-educated they need compassion and their wishes met at the worst point in their life

What if they said they only want to be seen by a white councillor?


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[Stairway 2 7]

What if they said they only want to be seen by a white councillor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not in any way comparable, come on to f

[archie]

What if they said they only want to be seen by a white councillor?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkJust to be clear Ozy, are you equating women who have been raped who wish services from women, for personal, trauma, religious or any reason, with racists?

[Ozyhibby]

Not in any way comparable, come on to f

I know it’s not and I probably would not have hired her for this role but it does highlight the prejudice they face. I think trans women do have to accept that while they do deserve equality of opportunity, there are a tiny amount of jobs that they can’t be considered for. Professional sportswoman and rape crisis councillor could def be two of them.
If she is just the CEO of this organisation and does actually do the council long then I don’t see a problem?
None of this appears to be anything to do with the GRA though?


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[Stairway 2 7]

I know it’s not and I probably would not have hired her for this role but it does highlight the prejudice they face. I think trans women do have to accept that while they do deserve equality of opportunity, there are a tiny amount of jobs that they can’t be considered for. Professional sportswoman and rape crisis councillor could def be two of them.
If she is just the CEO of this organisation and does actually do the council long then I don’t see a problem?
None of this appears to be anything to do with the GRA though?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think almost everyone would agree with that, well a sizable majority. If its an official pr organisational ect role I don't see the problem. I don't think it's transphobic to say they should have all the freedoms of a woman bar just a couple of caveats.

[archie]

In trying to focus on principles rather than the noise, I think there is an issue with the definition of 'trans'. I know people who have supported people transitioning. The person concerned was vulnerable and was on a long path to medically transition. I really think the vast majority of people would have no issue with treating them as a woman. But the GRA allows someone as young as 16 to identify as the opposite sex for 3 months, with 3 months colling off. All self IDed. They do have to sign an oath that they will remain as they have chosen, but I think that will be unenforcable. So effectively all a person has to do is say they are a woman to be treated as one. The vagueness that this builds into the system means that someone who has fully transitioned (I mean following drug therapy and surgery) is viewed in exactly the same way as someone who self IDs after three months (plus cooling off) - who may have had no medical intervention whatsoever. I think that's unhelpful to people who fully transition and also blurs the wider issues that will arise.

In addition, there appears to be little consideration for people who are concerned about what this means for them. Ozy implied that people asking for same sex carers were akin to racists. How do you take forward serious policy discusions in that environment?

[Mr Grieves]

The last two polls show women are split down the middle roughly on whether it should be easier to change. Most oppose the time you have to spend in the other body dropping from 2 years to 6 months. Most oppose them using single sex spaces and playing female sport.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60214574.amp

There's 3 questions that get majority support in that article and not one of them backs up your previous point :confused:

[Mr Grieves]

I don’t think the law on using single sex spaces changes with the GRA?
I agree on sport but I don’t think the GRA deals with this at all? It leaves it to sports bodies?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's covered by the Equality Act, AIUI.

:agree:

[Stairway 2 7]

There's 3 questions that get majority support in that article and not one of them backs up your previous point :confused:

The full poll is about 10 pages back and was discussed at the time, there was absout 20 questions. About the only question more women agreed with change was it should be easier. More were against it dropping to 3 months, single sex spaces being removed, the age of change dropping to 16

Uk wide it's similar, tories as you expect want less change than Labour voters. People were much more willing to let people in single sex spaces post surgery, I believe the vast majority don't have surgery though
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

[He's here!]

The head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19509343.outcry-plan-educate-bigoted-rape-survivors-trans-rights/

I suppose it depends on your definition of good. Personally, I found his statement deeply offensive and dangerous



Wadhwa has a long history of securing positions allocated specifically for women, as detailed on The Glinner Update, including doing so deceitfully. Moreover, while working as a manager at the Forth Valley Rape Crisis Centre, Wadhwa participated in an interview in April 2019 with The Student newspaper. When asked if a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager, Wadhwa answered, with no hint of irony: I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence. Our workforce is reserved for women only.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/rape-crisis-centre-selects-male-as-ceo-despite-position-being-open-to-women-only/

Yep, sounds like a good, empathetic person.

[He's here!]

In trying to focus on principles rather than the noise, I think there is an issue with the definition of 'trans'. I know people who have supported people transitioning. The person concerned was vulnerable and was on a long path to medically transition. I really think the vast majority of people would have no issue with treating them as a woman. But the GRA allows someone as young as 16 to identify as the opposite sex for 3 months, with 3 months colling off. All self IDed. They do have to sign an oath that they will remain as they have chosen, but I think that will be unenforcable. So effectively all a person has to do is say they are a woman to be treated as one. The vagueness that this builds into the system means that someone who has fully transitioned (I mean following drug therapy and surgery) is viewed in exactly the same way as someone who self IDs after three months (plus cooling off) - who may have had no medical intervention whatsoever. I think that's unhelpful to people who fully transition and also blurs the wider issues that will arise.

In addition, there appears to be little consideration for people who are concerned about what this means for them. Ozy implied that people asking for same sex carers were akin to racists. How do you take forward serious policy discusions in that environment?

Excellent post.

Patrick Harvie has previously stated that women who believe sex matters are akin to racists and heads a party whose policy is that anyone who says they are a woman literally is one - something, as you say, that the proposed reform of the GRA will effectively make a legal reality. Like you, the implications of this and the vagueness it builds in concern me a great deal.

I see Nicola Sturgeon has tried to pour cold water on such concerns in response to Rowling's criticism and I suspect she hopes that very vagueness will prevent this issue becoming a hotter potato than it currently is.

[CropleyWasGod]

A friend of a colleague of mine has just been elected to Brazil's congress as one of its first two transgender members.

http://https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/trailblazing-brazilian-trans-lawmakers-face-more-conservative-congress-2022-10-05/

Her v Bolsonaro? :cb

[Keith_M]

A friend of a colleague of mine has just been elected to Brazil's congress as one of its first two transgender members.

http://https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/trailblazing-brazilian-trans-lawmakers-face-more-conservative-congress-2022-10-05/

Her v Bolsonaro? :cb


...or Ballsonaro?

[He's here!]

Nicola's a 'real' feminist...not like that pretend one JKR:

'Real feminist' Nicola Sturgeon hits back at JK Rowling | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/-real-feminist-nicola-sturgeon-hits-back-at-jk-rowling?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=BLND%20%2020221007%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20IH+CID_71062ba1cc3a7e5d42e11a907122a169)

[Pretty Boy]

I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

[CropleyWasGod]

I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

This is the only official document I could find.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf

"How many trans people are there? We don't know". It follows from that that there will be no gender split available.

I would argue that there shouldn't be any figures available. It's no-one's business IMO. That said, I don't know if the Census asks questions like that... anyone?

The noise tells us that it's mainly M-F, and that's my own anecdotal experience. But I doubt that we can know with any certainty.

[Moulin Yarns]

I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

I know of a trans man who lives in Fife who is currently going through treatment and is due for top surgery before the end of the year. His name is jude and he was born Amy on the South Coast of England.

[147lothian]

Excellent post.

Patrick Harvie has previously stated that women who believe sex matters are akin to racists and heads a party whose policy is that anyone who says they are a woman literally is one - something, as you say, that the proposed reform of the GRA will effectively make a legal reality. Like you, the implications of this and the vagueness it builds in concern me a great deal.

I see Nicola Sturgeon has tried to pour cold water on such concerns in response to Rowling's criticism and I suspect she hopes that very vagueness will prevent this issue becoming a hotter potato than it currently is.

The implications for woman's sport and woman's safety have not been thought through in the GRA because what it would mean is that a man can identify as a woman without a doctor's certificate to show that he/she has a mental disorder ie gender dysphoria and enter woman's sport or womans spaces, after three months whereas it would have previously taken two years.

The main reason I think this is a bad idea has nothing to do with actual trans people, it's the way that it could be exploited by men who wish women harm gaining access to woman only spaces where women are vulnerable like prison's etc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYE0aig

[archie]

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1578993482806747136

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1578993482806747136

That's a well-written piece.

[CropleyWasGod]

The implications for woman's sport and woman's safety have not been thought through in the GRA because what it would mean is that a man can identify as a woman without a doctor's certificate to show that he/she has a mental disorder ie gender dysphoria and enter woman's sport or womans spaces, after three months whereas it would have previously taken two years.

The main reason I think this is a bad idea has nothing to do with actual trans people, it's the way that it could be exploited by men who wish women harm gaining access to woman only spaces where women are vulnerable like prison's etc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYE0aig

I know it's been said a few times on this thread, but it's worth repeating.

The GRA does not impact access to women-only spaces. That is already restricted by the Equality Act.

[James310]

I know it's been said a few times on this thread, but it's worth repeating.

The GRA does not impact access to women-only spaces. That is already restricted by the Equality Act.

But isn't a big concern after the bill you can become a woman much easier, basically after 3 months anyone can become a woman if they choose, so by default they have access to these spaces?

[CropleyWasGod]

But isn't a big concern after the bill you can become a woman much easier, basically after 3 months anyone can become a woman if they choose, so by default they have access to these spaces?

https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/gender-recognition-act-reform-2022/gra-faq/

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/gender-recognition-act-reform-2022/gra-faq/

Trans activists say it doesn't change the equality act. Feminist groups are saying in the real world, if you can legally change your sex on your passport ect there is no way for a company to check your biological sex

https://fairplayforwomen.com/gra_equality-act/

[archie]

Trans activists say it doesn't change the equality act. Feminist groups are saying in the real world, if you can legally change your sex on your passport ect there is no way for a company to check your biological sex

https://fairplayforwomen.com/gra_equality-act/
It also strips out any process that previously was required.

[147lothian]

Demi Minor, the transwomen Ie man who identifies as a woman, who got two women pregnant in a woman only prison in New Jersey has been transferred back to a male prison and will be eligible for parole in 2037.

http://nypost.com/2022/08/05/trans-prisoner-who-impregnated-two-women

[Stairway 2 7]

No sure he'll last long as an snp equality officer

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/snp-equalities-officer-threatened-beat-28189613

[superfurryhibby]

No sure he'll last long as an snp equality officer

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/snp-equalities-officer-threatened-beat-28189613

"An SNP equalities officer has apologised for a series of social media outbursts including one threatening violence against women. In now deleted posts, Cameron Downing, 23, said he wanted to “beat the f*** out of some terfs and transphobes”.

In another, he claimed: “I f****** hate terfs and transphobes with such a passion they make me want to SCREAM!” Terf – meaning trans-exclusionary radical feminist – is a derogatory term used against women who do not recognise the gender identity of trans women.

Downing has been an equalities officer for the SNP’s London branch since August 2022 and previously worked in the same role in 2021. When confronted about the Twitter posts, he said: “I apologise for these tweets and for any offence caused to the LGBTQ+ community and have long since deleted them.”

To think some on here have criticised JK Rowling for her tweets supporting women's rights, the above is an outrageous statement and shows the mentality of some of the bams involved in this self-identification mess

[KWJ]

I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

I would imagine they are much higher than most people would think. It's natural to have a unconscious stereotype or bias on what comes to mind when thinking of transgender people. I reckon we've all probably interacted with a good number of trans people, regularly, without realising it. Many trans people just want to get on with their life without being put under the microscope or being thrust on stage.

Terms like people with a cervix isn't meant to alienate women from birth but instead be inclusive to transmen.

[superfurryhibby]

I would imagine they are much higher than most people would think. It's natural to have a unconscious stereotype or bias on what comes to mind when thinking of transgender people. I reckon we've all probably interacted with a good number of trans people, regularly, without realising it. Many trans people just want to get on with their life without being put under the microscope or being thrust on stage.

Terms like people with a cervix isn't meant to alienate women from birth but instead be inclusive to transmen.

Without wishing to state the obvious, how about just calling them women?

[KWJ]

Without wishing to state the obvious, how about just calling them women?

Because if you say all women require cervical screening you're not including everybody who requires cervical screening.

[Stairway 2 7]

Because if you say all women require cervical screening you're not including everybody who requires cervical screening.

I think the 0.001% of the population will realise they still need to go. There is so little you could target them individually, rather than delete the word woman from use

[KWJ]

I think the 0.001% of the population will realise they still need to go. There is so little you could target them individually, rather than delete the word woman from use

Using another term either instead of or alongside woman, is a far cry from deleting it from use. Not that it'd be appropriate even if it was such a small number but it'll be a helluva lot more than that.

[Stairway 2 7]

Using another term either instead of or alongside woman, is a far cry from deleting it from use. Not that it'd be appropriate even if it was such a small number but it'll be a helluva lot more than that.

Using a term instead is deleting it. Men and people with cervixes isn't men and women. But the point still stands, I'm sure they know they need to still go for cervix screening. If they don't something has gone wrong with the information they are given

[superfurryhibby]

Because if you say all women require cervical screening you're not including everybody who requires cervical screening.

I'm tired so perhaps missing the obvious, but who else has a cervix aside from woman?

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm tired so perhaps missing the obvious, but who else has a cervix aside from woman?

Trans men and non-binary people who haven't had their cervix removed.

[KWJ]

Using a term instead is deleting it. Men and people with cervixes isn't men and women. But the point still stands, I'm sure they know they need to still go for cervix screening. If they don't something has gone wrong with the information they are given

Apologies, I missed saying another or additional term with woman for this instance, isn't deleting it. I think everyone who requires screening of whatever kind is probably aware they should get it but it's good for everyone to receive that general reminder and how important it can be, and through a variety of communication methods.

"Men and people with cervixes isn't men and women"

Obviously, but why complicate it by saying women and/or people with cervixes?

[147lothian]

Trans men and non-binary people who haven't had their cervix removed.

This doesn't get away from the fact that sex is binary. That there are only two sexes, men and woman and that it is only women that require cervical screening tests.

[KWJ]

This doesn't get away from the fact that sex is binary. That there are only two sexes, men and woman and that it is only women that require cervical screening tests.

Well, that's the whole debate isn't it. You don't believe or acknowledge transgender or non-binary while others will say you can identify differently to the gender you were assigned at birth.

[147lothian]

Well, that's the whole debate isn't it. You don't believe or acknowledge transgender or non-binary while others will say you can identify differently to the gender you were assigned at birth.

People can identify as they like. This doesn't get away from the fact that it is only woman who require cervical screening tests. As in adult human female. A woman is not an identity category to be picked up and put down as you see fit, it's a reality of biological sex.

[superfurryhibby]

Trans men and non-binary people who haven't had their cervix removed.

So, mostly people who self-identify (as I assume people who have actually had surgery will have had the cervix and womb removed, alongside other vestiges of their former gender) or people who prefer not to acknowledge gender, but who have cervix's?

In the circumstances, I feel the use of the term "women" is very much preferable to any other.

[Pretty Boy]

So, mostly people who self-identify (as I assume people who have actually had surgery will have had the cervix and womb removed, alongside other vestiges of their former gender) or people who prefer not to acknowledge gender, but who have cervix's?

In the circumstances, I feel the use of the term "women" is very much preferable to any other.

It's not really related but I was ****ed off recently when I went to an appointment with my wife and son and the doctor kept referring to me as the 2nd parent and occasionally co parent.

Firstly I'm my son's dad, secondly I'm not a 2nd parent. Both my wife and I are active in our children's upbringing in a variety of ways. I get that assumptions are off the table now but just ****ing ask people what they want to be called. Is it really all that perjorative to ask someone do you want to be referred to as mother, father or a co parent? Or simply 'what's your relationship to the child?' In the grand scheme of things it's not that big a deal but it seems in an attempt to be inclusive there's an inadvertent consequence that sees people who just want to be dad not called as such. I'm sure my view is grossly heteronormative or something but sorry I'm a dad and would rather just be called as such.

By the way I have no issue with children being raised with 2 mums, 2 dad's, non binary parents, a single parent, co habiting co parents or just about any other arrangement but it's not my situation so just establish that and act accordingly rather than use daft terms like '2nd parent'.

[Keith_M]

Person with a Cervix? Is that honestly a real expression?


:rolleyes:

[archie]

Well, that's the whole debate isn't it. You don't believe or acknowledge transgender or non-binary while others will say you can identify differently to the gender you were assigned at birth.

Alternatively 'observed at birth'!

[Keith_M]

Alternatively 'observed at birth'!


Yeah, that's surely a much more accurate description.

[hibby rae]

"An SNP equalities officer has apologised for a series of social media outbursts including one threatening violence against women. In now deleted posts, Cameron Downing, 23, said he wanted to “beat the f*** out of some terfs and transphobes”.

In another, he claimed: “I f****** hate terfs and transphobes with such a passion they make me want to SCREAM!” Terf – meaning trans-exclusionary radical feminist – is a derogatory term used against women who do not recognise the gender identity of trans women.

Downing has been an equalities officer for the SNP’s London branch since August 2022 and previously worked in the same role in 2021. When confronted about the Twitter posts, he said: “I apologise for these tweets and for any offence caused to the LGBTQ+ community and have long since deleted them.”

To think some on here have criticised JK Rowling for her tweets supporting women's rights, the above is an outrageous statement and shows the mentality of some of the bams involved in this self-identification mess

That's not accurate from the DR. Men can be TERFs as well, as you don't need to be female to be a feminist

[Moulin Yarns]

So, mostly people who self-identify (as I assume people who have actually had surgery will have had the cervix and womb removed, alongside other vestiges of their former gender) or people who prefer not to acknowledge gender, but who have cervix's?

In the circumstances, I feel the use of the term "women" is very much preferable to any other.

My friend Jude is intending to have top surgery but is not decided on lower body surgery. He will therefore still have a cervix

[147lothian]

Alternatively 'observed at birth'!

Well spotted, observed at birth is the reality of what happens, the biological sex of a baby is observed and recorded, no one flips a coin.

[Stairway 2 7]

Well spotted, observed at birth is the reality of what happens, the biological sex of a baby is observed and recorded, no one flips a coin.

The biological sex never changes, its just how people define themselves. Personally think people can define themselves as they like.

[Hibby Bairn]

My friend Jude is intending to have top surgery but is not decided on lower body surgery. He will therefore still have a cervix

I've read this six times now and I'm still not sure what's going on 🙃

[Stairway 2 7]

I've read this six times now and I'm still not sure what's going on 🙃

He's getting rid of his boobs, but keeping downstairs lady parts

[superfurryhibby]

That's not accurate from the DR. Men can be TERFs as well, as you don't need to be female to be a feminist

Considering the context of the discussion, I'm more concerned at the level of aggression in a person appointed by the SNP as an equalities officer than the semantics of the Record's definition of TERf or your views on who can and can't be a feminist.


It's not really related but I was ****ed off recently when I went to an appointment with my wife and son and the doctor kept referring to me as the 2nd parent and occasionally co parent.

Firstly I'm my son's dad, secondly I'm not a 2nd parent. Both my wife and I are active in our children's upbringing in a variety of ways. I get that assumptions are off the table now but just ****ing ask people what they want to be called. Is it really all that perjorative to ask someone do you want to be referred to as mother, father or a co parent? Or simply 'what's your relationship to the child?' In the grand scheme of things it's not that big a deal but it seems in an attempt to be inclusive there's an inadvertent consequence that sees people who just want to be dad not called as such. I'm sure my view is grossly heteronormative or something but sorry I'm a dad and would rather just be called as such.

By the way I have no issue with children being raised with 2 mums, 2 dad's, non binary parents, a single parent, co habiting co parents or just about any other arrangement but it's not my situation so just establish that and act accordingly rather than use daft terms like '2nd parent'.

A dad's a dad for aw that.

Assumptions can be clarified as you say, by a simple question. He shakes his heid in despair. I fear it just gives more ammunition for the bigots who exploit this stuff for all they can.

[147lothian]

I've read this six times now and I'm still not sure what's going on 🙃

Just wait for the next chapter when he sues the NHS for not providing him with a prostate checkup institutional discrimination against transmen

[Pretty Boy]

The biological sex never changes, its just how people define themselves. Personally think people can define themselves as they like.

Isn't that the whole crux of the debate though?

It's been accepted for quite literally millennia that there are multiple genders and that gender is fluid. It's ultimately a social construct and the removal of barriers in recent times to allow people to more freely express themselves is welcome. It's a small thing but my daughter loves dinosaurs; traditionally clothes featuring dinosaurs would have been in the boys section of a shop, now many shops have removed gender specific sections of their shop so she can wear what she likes without feeling she is wearing 'boys clothes'. That's a flippant example in a serious debate.

The argument now seems to be moving towards an idea of biological sex being a construct of society as well and that's a whole different matter. The term 'assigned at birth' points to that. Your sex isn't assigned at birth, it's defined based on biological observations. There really is only 3 possible outcomes to such observations, male, female and in a tiny percentage of cases intersex. Anyone should be able to choose to live their lives not bound by the social 'norms' of what is expected of men and women. Dress how you like, use what pronouns you like, call yourself what you like and forget all the hysteria and use whatever toilet you like as well. Do I believe though that trans men are wholly men or trans women are wholly women? No, I don't. A woman who doesn't want someone who's muscle development was aided by years of testosterone crashing into her at full pelt on a rugby field isn't a bigot for saying so. A beauty therapist who refuse to carry out a bikini wax on someone with male sexual organs isn't a bigot. Women who were raped by someone with a ***** and testicles are not bigots for not wanting someone with those same organs heading up a rape support charity or providing counselling services for them.

I daresay I'm a bigot for saying what I have have above but I stand by it. I've no issue with much of self ID, access to reassignment services and hormone therapy should be widespread, across a huge spectrum of areas trans people should have exactly the same rights as anyone else and I can't see why anyone would argue differently. However there can't just be a complete abandonment of biological reality and that means there has to be a tiny number of areas were exceptions are made. Simply screaming 'trans women are women' or 'trans men are men' is every bit as detrimental to the debate as people screaming 'there's only 2 genders'.

[Hibby Bairn]

He's getting rid of his boobs, but keeping downstairs lady parts

So is Jude a man or a woman?

[Stairway 2 7]

So is Jude a man or a woman?

Well born a female and transitioning to man

[KWJ]

Isn't that the whole crux of the debate though?

It's been accepted for quite literally millennia that there are multiple genders and that gender is fluid. It's ultimately a social construct and the removal of barriers in recent times to allow people to more freely express themselves is welcome. It's a small thing but my daughter loves dinosaurs; traditionally clothes featuring dinosaurs would have been in the boys section of a shop, now many shops have removed gender specific sections of their shop so she can wear what she likes without feeling she is wearing 'boys clothes'. That's a flippant example in a serious debate.

The argument now seems to be moving towards an idea of biological sex being a construct of society as well and that's a whole different matter. The term 'assigned at birth' points to that. Your sex isn't assigned at birth, it's defined based on biological observations. There really is only 3 possible outcomes to such observations, male, female and in a tiny percentage of cases intersex. Anyone should be able to choose to live their lives not bound by the social 'norms' of what is expected of men and women. Dress how you like, use what pronouns you like, call yourself what you like and forget all the hysteria and use whatever toilet you like as well. Do I believe though that trans men are wholly men or trans women are wholly women? No, I don't. A woman who doesn't want someone who's muscle development was aided by years of testosterone crashing into her at full pelt on a rugby field isn't a bigot for saying so. A beauty therapist who refuse to carry out a bikini wax on someone with male sexual organs isn't a bigot. Women who were raped by someone with a ***** and testicles are not bigots for not wanting someone with those same organs heading up a rape support charity or providing counselling services for them.

I daresay I'm a bigot for saying what I have have above but I stand by it. I've no issue with much of self ID, access to reassignment services and hormone therapy should be widespread, across a huge spectrum of areas trans people should have exactly the same rights as anyone else and I can't see why anyone would argue differently. However there can't just be a complete abandonment of biological reality and that means there has to be a tiny number of areas were exceptions are made. Simply screaming 'trans women are women' or 'trans men are men' is every bit as detrimental to the debate as people screaming 'there's only 2 genders'.

I don't disagree with you but, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think people are more inclined to immediately think of the situations like you've said above which are extreme, rare but obviously well publicised. While in reality the vast majority of trans people are just trying to get by in their lives, like the rest of us.

The wording and terms debate is another all together and I see it as attempting to be inclusive while others, even those without skin in the game, can't seem to acknowledge any reason to ever use such terms. It's a shame that there's so much anger on both sides which tends to receive as much, if not more, coverage than the actual debate.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't disagree with you but, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think people are more inclined to immediately think of the situations like you've said above which are extreme, rare but obviously well publicised. While in reality the vast majority of trans people are just trying to get by in their lives, like the rest of us.

The wording and terms debate is another all together and I see it as attempting to be inclusive while others, even those without skin in the game, can't seem to acknowledge any reason to ever use such terms. It's a shame that there's so much anger on both sides which tends to receive as much, if not more, coverage than the actual debate.

:agree:

People seem determined to latch onto peripheral issues like toilet provision and rage about them. As if there's a vast conspiracy of male rapists determined to identify as women solely for the purpose of carrying out rapes in toilets. :confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

:agree:

People seem determined to latch onto peripheral issues like toilet provision and rage about them. As if there's a vast conspiracy of male rapists determined to identify as women solely for the purpose of carrying out rapes in toilets. :confused:

I think rapes is being used in the extremes of both sides of the argument, it's ridiculous. It's more just that most women asked don't want pre op trans men in there toilets or changing areas. It's about men silencing womens wishes.

A compromise would be making planning laws have ample unisex changing cubicles and toilets. It could be enforced as much as the need for disabled toilets. Might take a while to retrofit and a huge expense, but for new buildings.

[Stairway 2 7]

Isn't that the whole crux of the debate though?

It's been accepted for quite literally millennia that there are multiple genders and that gender is fluid. It's ultimately a social construct and the removal of barriers in recent times to allow people to more freely express themselves is welcome. It's a small thing but my daughter loves dinosaurs; traditionally clothes featuring dinosaurs would have been in the boys section of a shop, now many shops have removed gender specific sections of their shop so she can wear what she likes without feeling she is wearing 'boys clothes'. That's a flippant example in a serious debate.

The argument now seems to be moving towards an idea of biological sex being a construct of society as well and that's a whole different matter. The term 'assigned at birth' points to that. Your sex isn't assigned at birth, it's defined based on biological observations. There really is only 3 possible outcomes to such observations, male, female and in a tiny percentage of cases intersex. Anyone should be able to choose to live their lives not bound by the social 'norms' of what is expected of men and women. Dress how you like, use what pronouns you like, call yourself what you like and forget all the hysteria and use whatever toilet you like as well. Do I believe though that trans men are wholly men or trans women are wholly women? No, I don't. A woman who doesn't want someone who's muscle development was aided by years of testosterone crashing into her at full pelt on a rugby field isn't a bigot for saying so. A beauty therapist who refuse to carry out a bikini wax on someone with male sexual organs isn't a bigot. Women who were raped by someone with a ***** and testicles are not bigots for not wanting someone with those same organs heading up a rape support charity or providing counselling services for them.

I daresay I'm a bigot for saying what I have have above but I stand by it. I've no issue with much of self ID, access to reassignment services and hormone therapy should be widespread, across a huge spectrum of areas trans people should have exactly the same rights as anyone else and I can't see why anyone would argue differently. However there can't just be a complete abandonment of biological reality and that means there has to be a tiny number of areas were exceptions are made. Simply screaming 'trans women are women' or 'trans men are men' is every bit as detrimental to the debate as people screaming 'there's only 2 genders'.

I think 99% of people would agree with this.

[archie]

:agree:

People seem determined to latch onto peripheral issues like toilet provision and rage about them. As if there's a vast conspiracy of male rapists determined to identify as women solely for the purpose of carrying out rapes in toilets. :confused:
Now I think that comment goes to the heart of the debate. A man says it's a peripheral issue. But many women disagree. The recent coverage of Primark's changing rooms policy and their reversal of it following harrassment of women is illustrative. I think the issue is exacerbated by the vagueness and fuzzyness about what being trans actually is. Added to that is the proposed legislation that largely strips out any process around changing gender. I genuinely believe that the majority of people are very supportive of what trans people go through. But I think that support is predicated on a vision of trans that is someone who is physically transitioning. And I really think the aggressive, sexualised stuff around 'suck my lady dick' is really setting the cause back.

[JeMeSouviens]

Now I think that comment goes to the heart of the debate. A man says it's a peripheral issue. But many women disagree. The recent coverage of Primark's changing rooms policy and their reversal of it following harrassment of women is illustrative. I think the issue is exacerbated by the vagueness and fuzzyness about what being trans actually is. Added to that is the proposed legislation that largely strips out any process around changing gender. I genuinely believe that the majority of people are very supportive of what trans people go through. But I think that support is predicated on a vision of trans that is someone who is physically transitioning. And I really think the aggressive, sexualised stuff around 'suck my lady dick' is really setting the cause back.

I really think that's unfair. Many women say it's a peripheral issue and many men disagree. As it happens, I don't have a particularly strong or well formed opinion on the subject, I just see loads of rage flying past on twitter, mainly, so I was agreeing with KWJ.

[archie]

I really think that's unfair. Many women say it's a peripheral issue and many men disagree. As it happens, I don't have a particularly strong or well formed opinion on the subject, I just see loads of rage flying past on twitter, mainly, so I was agreeing with KWJ.I think that's the danger of framing something as 'peripheral' when for many people it's not.

[superfurryhibby]

Well born a female and transitioning to man

A man with a fanny, but getting rid of the breests. Each to their own I suppose.

[hibby rae]

]Considering the context of the discussion, I'm more concerned at the level of aggression in a person appointed by the SNP as an equalities officer than the semantics of the Record's definition of TERf or your views on who can and can't be a feminist.[/B]





I understand that, but the semantics are very important if the DR is writing up the story as someone who has made threats against women, when in actual fact they haven't. By extension then, their role as an Equalities officer is less important, their threats are not based against those of a certain gender, they are based against those of a certain ideology. Because as I said before, men and women can be TERFS and men and women can be feminists. That is just a fact.

They have distorted the truth to suit a certain story and headline.

[Stairway 2 7]

I understand that, but the semantics are very important if the DR is writing up the story as someone who has made threats against women, when in actual fact they haven't. By extension then, their role as an Equalities officer is less important, their threats are not based against those of a certain gender, they are based against those of a certain ideology. Because as I said before, men and women can be TERFS and men and women can be feminists. That is just a fact.

They have distorted the truth to suit a certain story and headline.

I don't think an equalities officer for the government should be saying he wants to beat up men with a different viewpoint on social media either.

[147lothian]

I think that's the danger of framing something as 'peripheral' when for many people it's not.

It's not a peripheral issue for feminist woman who have campaigned for their sex-based rights since they got the right to vote, however in the strange times that we now live in people pretend they don't know what a woman is to support the new ideology of transgenderism, which see's women as an identity category rather than as the reality of biological sex

Women were campaigning against the GRA not because they are transphobic or have anything against trans people but because in creating a situation where it is easier for men to identify as women and gain entry to woman only spaces, a loophole is being created for a small number of men who pose a threat to women to exploit.

When a woman is in a night club, and they want to get away from the advances of a man who comes onto them, what do they do? They go to the toilet, the reason for this is because it's what they see this as a safe space that is for women only that men can't enter.

[hibby rae]

I don't think an equalities officer for the government should be saying he wants to beat up men with a different viewpoint on social media either.

Obviously no government official should. But again, their role is irrelevent. And the reporting is inaccurate.

[KWJ]

It's not a peripheral issue for feminist woman who have campaigned for their sex-based rights since they got the right to vote, however in the strange times that we now live in people pretend they don't know what a woman is to support the new ideology of transgenderism, which see's women as an identity category rather than as the reality of biological sex

Women were campaigning against the GRA not because they are transphobic or have anything against trans people but because in creating a situation where it is easier for men to identify as women and gain entry to woman only spaces, a loophole is being created for a small number of men who pose a threat to women to exploit.

When a woman is in a night club, and they want to get away from the advances of a man who comes onto them, what do they do? They go to the toilet, the reason for this is because it's what they see this as a safe space that is for women only that men can't enter.

Research was carried out in advance of the GRA and found that there wasn't any evidence to suggest that men claimed to be transwomen for malicious reasons in women only spaces. They also found zero evidence to support that women were more likely to be sexually assaulted by trans women than women from birth.

[hibby rae]

It's not a peripheral issue for feminist woman who have campaigned for their sex-based rights since they got the right to vote, however in the strange times that we now live in people pretend they don't know what a woman is to support the new ideology of transgenderism, which see's women as an identity category rather than as the reality of biological sex

Women were campaigning against the GRA not because they are transphobic or have anything against trans people but because in creating a situation where it is easier for men to identify as women and gain entry to woman only spaces, a loophole is being created for a small number of men who pose a threat to women to exploit.

When a woman is in a night club, and they want to get away from the advances of a man who comes onto them, what do they do? They go to the toilet, the reason for this is because it's what they see this as a safe space that is for women only that men can't enter.

Are you speaking from experience? Because my experience of working in clubs was often said men would be pointed out, or the women would speak to staff.

Is there any evidence of men posing as women to attack women in gender neutral spaces?

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you speaking from experience? Because my experience of working in clubs was often said men would be pointed out, or the women would speak to staff.

Is there any evidence of men posing as women to attack women in gender neutral spaces?

As I've said attacks is used to defend the policy, they are unlikely. But the vast majority of trans women don't have their ***** removed. So even knowing their won't be attacked, women should be allowed to get naked in a gym changing room without someone naked with a ***** next to them. The majority of women polled always say they don't want this so why do we never listen to them.

[superfurryhibby]

I understand that, but the semantics are very important if the DR is writing up the story as someone who has made threats against women, when in actual fact they haven't. By extension then, their role as an Equalities officer is less important, their threats are not based against those of a certain gender, they are based against those of a certain ideology. Because as I said before, men and women can be TERFS and men and women can be feminists. That is just a fact.

They have distorted the truth to suit a certain story and headline.

If we are doing semantics here then your statement that men can be feminists is very much debateable. It's not a "fact", in fact veryfar from it. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/apr/23/canmenbefeminists


"Brian Klocke of the National Organisation for Men against Sexism has argued: "Although I believe that men can be pro-feminist and anti-sexist, I do not believe we can be feminists in the strictest sense of the word in today's society. Men, in this patriarchal system, cannot remove themselves from their power and privilege in relation to women. To be a feminist one must be a member of the targeted group (ie a woman) not only as a matter of classification but as having one's directly-lived experience inform one's theory and praxis."

Women feminists have also voiced misgivings about men's involvement in the movement. Some men, they argue, automatically assume a dominant role when they become activists, claiming to be better feminists than feminist women, and failing to recognise and challenge their own sexist behaviour".

As for your "fact" about TERf, have a read of this (I think it's a good, basic explanation of the gender critical position) https://gcritical.org/gender-critical-or-terf/

"Most radical feminists do not accept that men can be “feminists” at all (even if they are allies) because they cannot experience the oppression women feel. For this reason, men cannot be radical feminists. If anyone tells you a man is a TERF, that person has no idea what radical feminism, or a TERF, is".

An interesting juxtaposition, a man (I assume you are?) deciding unequivocally who can be a feminist and deflecting from a hate based attack against women with a particular ideological stance. Does that not sail close to the wind in terms of misogyny?

On that note, can a fully transitioned transgender woman become a feminist? My first thoughts are aye, of course they can.

My family member was born female, transitioned and is now a bloke, a gay bloke. I find it all confusing.

[147lothian]

A man with a fanny, but getting rid of the breests. Each to their own I suppose.

pronouns are nuts / nuttiest / nuttier

[CapitalGreen]

I don’t know if this is appropriate here, but here goes. On ‘Pointless’ there are twins, one male, one female. By my assessment, the girl is lesbian and the guy is homosexual. Would this be an expected sexual orientation? Sorry, if I haven’t phrased my question well.

I’m interested to hear more about this assessment.

[allmodcons]

I don’t know if this is appropriate here, but here goes. On ‘Pointless’ there are twins, one male, one female. By my assessment, the girl is lesbian and the guy is homosexual. Would this be an expected sexual orientation? Sorry, if I haven’t phrased my question well.

Possibly one of the weirdest posts I have ever seen on these boards :confused:

[James310]

https://archive.ph/IzEGs

The polls in that article are interesting.

[Moulin Yarns]

Possibly one of the weirdest posts I have ever seen on these boards :confused:

Yep.

I saw the people referred to and the post is just lazy stereotypes.

I saw 2 nice, normal people.

[He's here!]

https://archive.ph/IzEGs

The polls in that article are interesting.

Thanks for posting that. Very good piece from Rowling which you would hope will (along with those polls) give Sturgeon pause for thought.

[superfurryhibby]

Thanks for posting that. Very good piece from Rowling which you would hope will (along with those polls) give Sturgeon pause for thought.

It is a well reasoned argument from Rowling.

It’s scary that a minority group of misguided extremists are having such a big influence on government.

It’s also very scary that women expressing views, like Rowling, have been targeted by haters and stigmatised for daring to oppose the will of a lunatic fringe of activists.

[Keith_M]

I think 99% of people would agree with this.


Actually, I don't.

I don't see how anyone can say that it's been 'accepted for millennia' that gender is fluid and that there are an infinite number of genders.

Stating something like that would most likely have had your local priest leading a procession with pitchforks, calling you the spawn of the devil and demanding you be burnt at the stake.


26244

[Pretty Boy]

Actually, I don't.

I don't see how anyone can say that it's been 'accepted for millennia' that gender is fluid and that there are an infinite number of genders.

Stating something like that would most likely have had your local priest leading a procession with pitchforks, calling you the spawn of the devil and demanding you be burnt at the stake.


26244

It's perhaps not been the case in the western world or the world of the Abrahamic religions but elsewhere in the worl it has long been the case.

The Hirjas in India, ancient Egyptians, the Mahu in Hawaii and multiple other examples across South America, Asia and Africa.

Gender fluidity isn't something that was invented in the 21st century.

[Keith_M]

It's perhaps not been the case in the western world or the world of the Abrahamic religions but elsewhere in the worl it has long been the case.

The Hirjas in India, ancient Egyptians, the Mahu in Hawaii and multiple other examples across South America, Asia and Africa.

Gender fluidity isn't something that was invented in the 21st century.


So are you saying that the western religions have been wrong all along and are finally catching up with their much more understanding counterparts elsewhere?

[Pretty Boy]

So are you saying that the western religions have been wrong all along and are finally catching up with their much more understanding counterparts elsewhere?

I don't think those who control large denominations of Judaism, Islam or Christianity are catching up at all. They are all still needlessly obsessed with that people are getting up to in their bedrooms and the appendages associated with that. Clericalism still abounds though so I'm not holding my breath that we will see change any time soon. On that front I've never argued anything other than the Church (and in turn other organisations with similar viewpoints) is massively out of step.

The point is that we tend to view the world from a Eurocentric viewpoint and view all the chat around gender fluidity and the like as something knew when really it's nothing of the sort. On the flip side the argument that one can wholly and completely change their sex is a fresh argument and really what the current debate is dealing with.

[neil7908]

So are you saying that the western religions have been wrong all along and are finally catching up with their much more understanding counterparts elsewhere?

I'm not sure we should be looking at any religion for guidance on matters of gender, biology or sex.

But gender fluidity has been around in Western cultures for millennia. Ancient Rome, center of the western world for centuries had a much more open view to gender and sexuality than Christianity or Islam have allowed.

[He's here!]

It is a well reasoned argument from Rowling.

It’s scary that a minority group of misguided extremists are having such a big influence on government.

It’s also very scary that women expressing views, like Rowling, have been targeted by haters and stigmatised for daring to oppose the will of a lunatic fringe of activists.

The article really underlines just how absurdly meagre the requirements will be to enable a person to amend their gender...especially, as she points out, when you consider nobody has actually been able to define what living in an acquired gender actually means.

Hopefully the high profile front page coverage the Sunday Times is giving this will prompt some serious and overdue scrutiny of SG policy here.

[147lothian]

https://archive.ph/IzEGs

The polls in that article are interesting.

Thanks for posting this, Rowling articulates well the concerns that many women have about the GRA which would be seen as a way for some predatory men to gain access to vulnerable woman, in spaces such as public bathrooms, changing rooms, domestic violence refuges and prison cells etc. It seems like women's safety concerns are forgotten by trying to make it easier for trans people to self ID.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm still trying to find evidence, or figures that support the fear of women in changing rooms being assaulted.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm still trying to find evidence, or figures that support the fear of women in changing rooms being assaulted.

Why does it have to be the fear of being assaulted. What if they just don't want someone with a ***** naked next to them in the gym changing room. Most women asked in the last couple of polls put up say they don't want pre op men in changing rooms. Should we listen to them, or tell them

[Moulin Yarns]

Why does it have to be the fear of being assaulted. What if they just don't want someone with a ***** naked next to them in the gym changing room. Most women asked in the last couple of polls put up say they don't want pre op men in changing rooms. Should we listen to them, or tell them



Evidence? How often has this happened?

[He's here!]

I'm still trying to find evidence, or figures that support the fear of women in changing rooms being assaulted.

Justifiable basis for fear here, as Rowling points out:

https://archive.ph/RobDS

[Stairway 2 7]

Evidence? How often has this happened?

Evidence of what, do you want actual figures for how many trans women use the gym ha?

It's a fact most gyms have open plan changing rooms and also most trans women chose to keep there *****.

[Stairway 2 7]

Scottish greens have suspended association with Welsh and English greens. It's a split due to Scottish greens thinking the other two are transphobic. I thought they were mainly for environmental issues. Wonder if there will be a splinter party in Scotland that just want environmental issues and are more mainstream on other issues.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FeministRoar/status/1581676107736051713

[CropleyWasGod]

Scottish greens have suspended association with Welsh and English greens. It's a split due to Scottish greens thinking the other two are transphobic. I thought they were mainly for environmental issues. Wonder if there will be a splinter party in Scotland that just want environmental issues and are more mainstream on other issues.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FeministRoar/status/1581676107736051713

There have been transphobia problems in the GPEW for years. It's not as if this wasn't expected.

As for the Scottish party, AFAIK the vote was virtually unopposed.

[Stairway 2 7]

There have been transphobia problems in the GPEW for years. It's not as if this wasn't expected.

As for the Scottish party, AFAIK the vote was virtually unopposed.

What do you mean by transphobic though. Is it just a difference of opinions like jk Rowling has, as many don't believe that it transphobic.

[CropleyWasGod]

What do you mean by transphobic though. Is it just a difference of opinions like jk Rowling has, as many don't believe that it transphobic.

This is a good place to start.

https://twitter.com/LGBTIQAGreens/status/1581677207625207808?t=onmAxkmp08JFwev3WyNrAg&s=19

[He's here!]

Scottish greens have suspended association with Welsh and English greens. It's a split due to Scottish greens thinking the other two are transphobic. I thought they were mainly for environmental issues. Wonder if there will be a splinter party in Scotland that just want environmental issues and are more mainstream on other issues.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FeministRoar/status/1581676107736051713

Scottish Greens are simply toxic. A real error of judgement by Sturgeon to hand them a position of influence for the sake of her indy majority.

[superfurryhibby]

[QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7131863]What do you mean by transphobic though. Is it just a difference of opinions like jk Rowling has, as many don't believe that it transphobic.[/QUOTE

I suspect that anyone who doesn't share the views of the leadership are labelled as transphobic.

[beensaidbefore]

Good way to get rid of a large number of Green voters in one fell swoop. Turkeys and Christmas spring to mind

[Since90+2]

[QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7131863]What do you mean by transphobic though. Is it just a difference of opinions like jk Rowling has, as many don't believe that it transphobic.[/QUOTE

I suspect that anyone who doesn't share the views of the leadership are labelled as transphobic.

That does seem to be the case with this quite often.

[beensaidbefore]

[QUOTE=superfurryhibby;7131970]

That does seem to be the case with this quite often.


I find it quite ironic that folk looking for society to accept their alternative view have real difficulty accepting alternative views.

[Keith_M]

This is a good place to start.

https://twitter.com/LGBTIQAGreens/status/1581677207625207808?t=onmAxkmp08JFwev3WyNrAg&s=19



That just seems to be a number of people saying a problem is present but no details seem to be supplied.


:dunno:

[Since90+2]

[QUOTE=Since90+2;7132137]


I find it quite ironic that folk looking for society to accept their alternative view have real difficulty accepting alternative views.

Indeed.