The Trans Rights Debate

[He's here!]

This is such a niche issue I doubt it moves more than a handful of votes either way in any election.
And like any issue in Scotland, the only reason it’s getting amplified is because the two Indy parties are promoting it so the unionists have decided to oppose it. And you can see that even on this thread. It’s quite sad really as it is a complex issue for a tiny amount of people and they don’t really need it being weaponised in the Indy debate.
It’s like Celtic and Sevco fans waiting to see which side of any conflict the other set of fans are about to take so that they can oppose them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A piece of legislation which has the potential to impact on the vast majority of women in Scotland is hardly a niche issue. Women's rights have been (and continue to be) extremely hard won and many are right to air their concerns at the tone deaf approach of the Scottish Government.

How this impacts on voting intentions is a minor detail. And it certainly bears no comparison to the Old Firm rivalry.

[LewysGot2]

This is such a niche issue I doubt it moves more than a handful of votes either way in any election.
And like any issue in Scotland, the only reason it’s getting amplified is because the two Indy parties are promoting it so the unionists have decided to oppose it. And you can see that even on this thread. It’s quite sad really as it is a complex issue for a tiny amount of people and they don’t really need it being weaponised in the Indy debate.
It’s like Celtic and Sevco fans waiting to see which side of any conflict the other set of fans are about to take so that they can oppose them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's only the Tories uncomfortable with it.

It's not a "unionist" battle line.

[Moulin Yarns]

A piece of legislation which has the potential to impact on the vast majority of women in Scotland is hardly a niche issue. Women's rights have been (and continue to be) extremely hard won and many are right to air their concerns at the tone deaf approach of the Scottish Government.

How this impacts on voting intentions is a minor detail. And it certainly bears no comparison to the Old Firm rivalry.

As the survey says, it isn't going to impact women. They are the most supportive, in the survey!!

[LewysGot2]

Further down the article it shows that there's very little agreement on what that means.

There are financial costs, for example, which I believe should be removed entirely once the patient and doctors have approved transition.

We have no definitive idea of what it means to be trans, and the there will be plenty of general support for trans people
as vulnerable and discriminated against minorities, followed with "oh, im not sure you should be able to do THAT" when discussing what rights we think trans people should have.

Nobody ever mentions AGP males in this equation either. They are part of the subtleties of the debate and concerns of some,in addition to this removing the ability of women (and children) to simply challenge who might be in a single sex places.


The impact of Queer Theory on the gay community is not being being discussed either. It's no coincidence so many of the most vocal resistance is from gay women (and many gay men).

[Moulin Yarns]

Nobody ever mentions AGP males in this equation either. They are part of the subtleties of the debate and concerns of some,in addition to this removing the ability of women (and children) to simply challenge who might be in a single sex places.


The impact of Queer Theory on the gay community is not being being discussed either. It's no coincidence so many of the most vocal resistance is from gay women (and many gay men).

Totally confused!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-high-risk-agp-panel-summary-of-recommendations/independent-high-risk-agp-panel-summary-of-recommendations-arising-from-evidence-reviews-to-date

[LewysGot2]

Totally confused!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-high-risk-agp-panel-summary-of-recommendations/independent-high-risk-agp-panel-summary-of-recommendations-arising-from-evidence-reviews-to-date

Not aerosol generating processes 🤣👍

Autogynephilia.

Males who get their kicks at dressing in stereotypical female clothes, make up etc and accessing female only spaces- a fetish. They don't physically transition and have no intention of doing so. The sexual thrill is what they're seeking.

Mind you, most M to F trans people keep their tackle, too.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not aerosol generating processes 🤣👍

Autogynephilia.

Males who get their kicks at dressing in stereotypical female clothes, make up etc and accessing female only spaces- a fetish. They don't physically transition and have no intention of doing so. The sexual thrill is what they're seeking.

Mind you, most M to F trans people keep their tackle, too.

So, transvestities!!! Why didn't you say?!

Would love to know what your evidence for the last bit is. :wink:

[LewysGot2]

So, transvestities!!! Why didn't you say?!

Would love to know what your evidence for the last bit is. :wink:

Because AGP is the proper term for it? :wink:

From Gender Identity Research and Education Service research in the UK….

“In 2016, a meta-analysis (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=27045261) of 27 studies estimated a rate of approx 10 per 100,000 of the population (0.01%) have a transgender diagnosis and/or surgical or hormonal treatment. In contrast 355 per 100,000 of the population(0.35%) self-identity as transgender. This means only 2.8% of the transgender community is undergoing any gender-affirming treatment with the vast majority 97.2% simply self-identity with no modifications to their sexed body whatsoever”.

Also

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5875299/


a fairly recent paper on it from the US….


There’s very consistent published information about it. Maybe big pharma would like that to change…$$$$

[One Day Soon]

This is such a niche issue I doubt it moves more than a handful of votes either way in any election. And like any issue in Scotland, the only reason it’s getting amplified is because the two Indy parties are promoting it so the unionists have decided to oppose it. And you can see that even on this thread. It’s quite sad really as it is a complex issue for a tiny amount of people and they don’t really need it being weaponised in the Indy debate. It’s like Celtic and Sevco fans waiting to see which side of any conflict the other set of fans are about to take so that they can oppose them. Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's a pretty grotesque distortion. The range of women concerned about the potential impact upon women's rights comes from almost all parts of the political spectrum. I'm struggling to think of many other issues in Scotland that do this. Those women may be right or wrong but dismissing them as only pretending to be concerned for other constitutional purposes is just unfair.

[LewysGot2]

That's a pretty grotesque distortion. The range of women concerned about the potential impact upon women's rights comes from almost all parts of the political spectrum. I'm struggling to think of many other issues in Scotland that do this. Those women may be right or wrong but dismissing them as only pretending to be concerned for other constitutional purposes is just unfair.

It's definitely a cross party thing. Or, to be honest,
Just an ordinary females thing. Some key people like Cherry and Dalgetty are political animals but its definitely NOT SNP and Greens v The Union.

[He's here!]

That's a pretty grotesque distortion. The range of women concerned about the potential impact upon women's rights comes from almost all parts of the political spectrum. I'm struggling to think of many other issues in Scotland that do this. Those women may be right or wrong but dismissing them as only pretending to be concerned for other constitutional purposes is just unfair.

A good point.

[superfurryhibby]

That's a pretty grotesque distortion. The range of women concerned about the potential impact upon women's rights comes from almost all parts of the political spectrum. I'm struggling to think of many other issues in Scotland that do this. Those women may be right or wrong but dismissing them as only pretending to be concerned for other constitutional purposes is just unfair.

It's not only women who are concerned about this legislation and the impact on women's rights. However, you are completely correct in saying that the concerns aren't linked to people's stance on constitutional issues.

[He's here!]

It's not only women who are concerned about this legislation and the impact on women's rights. However, you are completely correct in saying that the concerns aren't linked to people's stance on constitutional issues.

Also a good point, although it is they who stand to be most impacted by it so the high profile presence of groups like For Women Scotland is understandable.

[James310]

I wonder how Emma Weyant who came second feels?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/60792875

[CropleyWasGod]

I wonder how Emma Weyant who came second feels?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/60792875

This might help

https://www.newsweek.com/emma-weyant-transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas-ncaa-1689362

[Ozyhibby]

When it comes to elite sport, I agree that trans competitors should not be allowed to compete. Even with all the hormone therapy, a trans competitor who grew up male has the benefit of all the muscle growth pre their transition. A male aged 16-20 can build muscle that is impossible for females to match.

Not sure the GRA addresses the sports issue?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

When it comes to elite sport, I agree that trans competitors should not be allowed to compete. Even with all the hormone therapy, a trans competitor who grew up male has the benefit of all the muscle growth pre their transition. A male aged 16-20 can build muscle that is impossible for females to match.

Not sure the GRA addresses the sports issue?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Would you exclude trans males?

[500miles]

Would you exclude trans males?

Not an issue if mens sport becomes an open category.

[Ozyhibby]

Would you exclude trans males?

I would think it very unlikely that it will become an issue. I can’t think of many sports where someone who grew up a female could compete with males at an elite level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

I would think it very unlikely that it will become an issue. I can’t think of many sports where someone who grew up a female could compete with males at an elite level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So trans males are okay :greengrin

Trans females in sports where testosterone levels and strength are less of an issue? Such as snooker, darts, equestrianism, motor sports maybe?

My point is I don't think you have a blanket ban on trans people in all elite sports. That would be TERFy :cb

[Ozyhibby]

So trans males are okay :greengrin

Trans females in sports where testosterone levels and strength are less of an issue? Such as snooker, darts, equestrianism, motor sports maybe?

My point is I don't think you have a blanket ban on trans people in all elite sports. That would be TERFy :cb

I think you make male sports ‘open’ but female sports only for athletes who grew up female.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Absolutely ridiculous that in a few decades many female athletic world record could be held by someone who was born a male. Why would the bafoons want to win them, they aren't stupid they know they have an advantage.

Of course they should be able to legally change sex Mary adopt whatever, but surely a few caveats is still a huge change from where we were.

The mma fights we've seen were sick, what's going through a trans person's head to smash someone born a female.

[Mcbizz1998]

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

This is interesting (if all accurate).

[Moulin Yarns]

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

This is interesting (if all accurate).

A bit disingenuous to call them boys, 18 years old!

[Stairway 2 7]

A bit disingenuous to call them boys, 18 years old!

That's the age lia Thomas transitioned so shell always have a huge advantage, what age do most transition. She went from an average male swimmer to the best college female. She needs a shake how can she feel good winning with such a natural advantage. The other girls on the podium all stood together in protest

25698

[Moulin Yarns]

That's the age lia Thomas transitioned so shell always have a huge advantage, what age do most transition. She went from an average male swimmer to the best college female. She needs a shake how can she feel good winning with such a natural advantage. The other girls on the podium all stood together in protest

25698

The man I know who is clearly not an athlete is 30 and about to have upper body surgery to 'reduce' his body.

[Stairway 2 7]

The man I know who is clearly not an athlete is 30 and about to have upper body surgery to 'reduce' his body.

And good luck to him. A friend at work is having the same at a disgusting unfair price. I welcome every law available to them being changed, marriage adoption passport whatever. But... the caveat of sport should be preserved to be fair on people born females. Men have enough, let them have their records.

Things have come such a long way for trans people in 20 years, it's great. Life is unfair sometimes, surely they can live without competing in female sports. I've got over the fact I'll never make the 200 metres at the Olympics as I'm slow as ****, life is unfair

[CropleyWasGod]

That's the age lia Thomas transitioned so shell always have a huge advantage, what age do most transition. She went from an average male swimmer to the best college female. She needs a shake how can she feel good winning with such a natural advantage. The other girls on the podium all stood together in protest

25698

It wasn't a protest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N2VP1XH

The woman who came second has her say.

An Olympic silver medalist who lost to Lia Thomas at NCAA Championships said she's 'proud to support trans athletes' https://www.businessinsider.in/sports/news/an-olympic-silver-medalist-who-lost-to-lia-thomas-at-ncaa-championships-said-shes-proud-to-support-trans-athletes/articleshow/90313958.cms?utm_source=social_sticky_amp&utm_medium=social_sharing&utm_campaign=Click_through_social_share

[Stairway 2 7]

It wasn't a protest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N2VP1XH

The woman who came second has her say.

An Olympic silver medalist who lost to Lia Thomas at NCAA Championships said she's 'proud to support trans athletes' https://www.businessinsider.in/sports/news/an-olympic-silver-medalist-who-lost-to-lia-thomas-at-ncaa-championships-said-shes-proud-to-support-trans-athletes/articleshow/90313958.cms?utm_source=social_sticky_amp&utm_medium=social_sharing&utm_campaign=Click_through_social_share

Other women who lost out had their say. One only if anonymity as there would be a backlash. The boos from the crowd were obvious and it distracts from the real issues. The few mma fights were further than this and I would say they were sick. Someone that has been a male beyond puberty has different muscle mass and bone density even after hormones. Have to be worped in the head to want to smash away at a woman with such an advantage, equally so to condone it

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/trans-athletes-steal-wins-from-biological-females-lia-thomas/

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/lia-thomas-teammate-situation-is-unfair-and-ncaa-is-discriminating-against-cisgender-women-locker-room-discomfort/

[Mcbizz1998]

A bit disingenuous to call them boys, 18 years old!

Oh really - Where does it say that? Or did you find that out independently?

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh really - Where does it say that? Or did you find that out independently?

American high school students are up to age 18. Not that difficult to find out.


My point is an 18 year old 'boy' will be physically stronger than a lot of women so that comparison is worthless.

[Stairway 2 7]

American high school students are up to age 18. Not that difficult to find out.


My point is an 18 year old 'boy' will be physically stronger than a lot of women so that comparison is worthless.

That's exactly what the point is, as most athletes that cross over are transitioning after they have this physical advantage

[Moulin Yarns]

That's exactly what the point is, as most athletes that cross over are transitioning after they have this physical advantage

I get that. I just wonder how many are changing purely for the reason to beat women at sports?

[Ozyhibby]

I get that. I just wonder how many are changing purely for the reason to beat women at sports?

That’s a real danger. The financial rewards of a successful sports career can create incentives that should not be there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

That’s a real danger. The financial rewards of a successful sports career can create incentives that should not be there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a whole different debate. Normal trans people are being mixed up with the different negatives being put forward because a lot of people think that they have ulterior motives.

[Mcbizz1998]

American high school students are up to age 18. Not that difficult to find out.


My point is an 18 year old 'boy' will be physically stronger than a lot of women so that comparison is worthless.

Not sure what the snide comment was for? Was a genuine question and wasn’t meant as some kind of dig. Even if I’d known that, how do you know some of these boys aren’t 17?

Anyway, don’t think the comparison is worthless at all. These are 18 year olds competing in 1 country (USA) and are able to beat the best Olympic female athletes from across the world at every single athletics event. And not just 1 or 2, the vast majority of these young men out perform the Olympic level females, before they have even reached their physical peak.

Pretty good comparison and shows why biological men competing against females is not fair.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure what the snide comment was for? Was a genuine question and wasn’t meant as some kind of dig. Even if I’d known that, how do you know some of these boys aren’t 17?

Anyway, don’t think the comparison is worthless at all. These are 18 year olds competing in 1 country (USA) and are able to beat the best Olympic female athletes from across the world at every single athletics event. And not just 1 or 2, the vast majority of these young men out perform the Olympic level females, before they have even reached their physical peak.

Pretty good comparison and shows why biological men competing against females is not fair.

You do realise I agree. But it's not related to the trans debate. Unless you can give numbers of men wanting to change sex just so they can compete against women. A bit drastic action if you ask me.

[Stairway 2 7]

You do realise I agree. But it's not related to the trans debate. Unless you can give numbers of men wanting to change sex just so they can compete against women. A bit drastic action if you ask me.

It is related because its front and back pages of papers. It's making it harder for the vast vast majority of trans who just want to live a normal life. It shouldn’t be able to be brought into the argument but it is and could not be

[Ozyhibby]

That's a whole different debate. Normal trans people are being mixed up with the different negatives being put forward because a lot of people think that they have ulterior motives.

I agree. If we can take the sport issue out the equation we can start supporting trans people the way any society should. I can’t think of any other impediment to them living their life as they wish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mcbizz1998]

You do realise I agree. But it's not related to the trans debate. Unless you can give numbers of men wanting to change sex just so they can compete against women. A bit drastic action if you ask me.

Ok maybe I stepped into the wrong debate. I presumed that part of “the trans rights debate”, as this thread is called, would include whether or not biological men should be allowed to compete in womens sports.

If that’s not part of this debate then very well….

[He's here!]

That's a whole different debate. Normal trans people are being mixed up with the different negatives being put forward because a lot of people think that they have ulterior motives.

I'd agree it's a different argument to the core isdues addressed in this thread. However, it's an element of the debate that has potentially far reaching repercussions (ie the end of women's sport as a meaningful entity).

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd agree it's a different argument to the core isdues addressed in this thread. However, it's an element of the debate that has potentially far reaching repercussions (ie the end of women's sport as a meaningful entity).

As this is really only beginning to become an issue in sports I would like to think the sports governing bodies will look at the implications and act appropriately.

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/at-least-boris-johnson-knows-the-difference-between-men-and-women?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020220324%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20SM+CID_563cfa8c3b457899850f51b0ec755179

[Keith_M]

Did you know that Jakey Rolling is a regional sport in the parks of Glasgow, especially the hilly ones?

[Ozyhibby]

https://alexmassie.substack.com/p/the-debatable-land-16-the-lia-thomas?utm_source=twitter&s=r

Good article on trans rights as it relates to sport. Massie is a good writer, it’s a shame he’s found his niche in the lucrative SNP bad market.

Quick question, does the SG’s GRA make any mention of elite sport?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

https://alexmassie.substack.com/p/the-debatable-land-16-the-lia-thomas?utm_source=twitter&s=r

Good article on trans rights as it relates to sport. Massie is a good writer, it’s a shame he’s found his niche in the lucrative SNP bad market.

Quick question, does the SG’s GRA make any mention of elite sport?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It doesn't AFAIK

IMO, it shouldn’t. As has been mentioned, it should be up to each sport to come to their own conclusion.

[Ozyhibby]

It doesn't AFAIK

IMO, it shouldn’t. As has been mentioned, it should be up to each sport to come to their own conclusion.

Good, then I’m happy enough to support it.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

https://alexmassie.substack.com/p/the-debatable-land-16-the-lia-thomas?utm_source=twitter&s=r

Good article on trans rights as it relates to sport. Massie is a good writer, it’s a shame he’s found his niche in the lucrative SNP bad market.

Quick question, does the SG’s GRA make any mention of elite sport?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just read it, great article

[Moulin Yarns]

Ignore your own politics this is very brave.


https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/news/statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp-30th-march-2022


https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/press-releases/follow-up-statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp

[lapsedhibee]

Ignore your own politics this is very brave.


https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/news/statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp-30th-march-2022


https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/press-releases/follow-up-statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp

Johnson made a brief statement in the commons commending his actions.
And, https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/03/30/boris-johnson-trans-joke-mp-jamie-wallis/

[McD]

Ignore your own politics this is very brave.


https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/news/statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp-30th-march-2022


https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/press-releases/follow-up-statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp


totally agree :agree:

[Keith_M]

Johnson made a brief statement in the commons commending his actions.
And, https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/03/30/boris-johnson-trans-joke-mp-jamie-wallis/


After being criticised for making a trans joke at a drunken party.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.outsports.com/2022/3/30/23002192/truk-united-transgender-women-soccer-dulwich-hamlet-terf-rowling-uk-transphobia


History is being made on the football pitch today. 👍

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.outsports.com/2022/3/30/23002192/truk-united-transgender-women-soccer-dulwich-hamlet-terf-rowling-uk-transphobia


History is being made on the football pitch today. 👍

They are playing against men good on them, hope they win

[Moulin Yarns]

They are playing against men good on them, hope they win

I think they are playing the women's team. Dulwich hamlets team are semi professional and the TRUK team are playing their first ever game.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think they are playing the women's team. Dulwich hamlets team are semi professional and the TRUK team are playing their first ever game.

**** sake. The picture of the woman in the article, why would she want to be up against a girl. With east of Scotland team we played Scotland girls a few ages above. It was rubbish because none of us were going to tackle a girl hard. We were also just clearly faster it was pointless

[lapsedhibee]

none of us were going to tackle a girl hard

Sexist/chivalrous pig.

[Moulin Yarns]

**** sake. The picture of the woman in the article, why would she want to be up against a girl. With east of Scotland team we played Scotland girls a few ages above. It was rubbish because none of us were going to tackle a girl hard. We were also just clearly faster it was pointless

https://www.pitchero.com/clubs/dulwichhamlet/news/dhfcw-take-on-trans-radio-at-champion-hill-2691311.html

More information on the game.

[Stairway 2 7]

Sexist/chivalrous pig.

You need a certain anger or bite to be a good defender. Your just no right if you can use that against a female you're genetically stronger than. Some of them were better footballers than us, but strength and speed is too big a barrier

[Ozyhibby]

You need a certain anger or bite to be a good defender. Your just no right if you can use that against a female you're genetically stronger than. Some of them were better footballers than us, but strength and speed is too big a barrier

My son plays youth footy and there is a girl his age who he has played against a number of times over the years. They both play centre mid so tend to be directly against each other. She is a fantastic footballer and regularly bested him over the years. However, the last time they played was at the beginning of u14 season and it was clear to see that they wouldn’t be playing again as he bullied her that day and she couldn’t get close to him. She has an excellent future ahead of her in the woman’s game and I’ll be surprised if she doesn’t end up playing for Scotland. My son won’t get anywhere near the professional ranks. The minute he hit puberty, he had huge advantages which were too much for her to overcome despite her being a superior player.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

https://youtu.be/stnesecG00s


Some of the difficulties and costs of transitioning.

[CropleyWasGod]

Hardly a surprise.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60947028.amp

[CropleyWasGod]

Hardly a surprise.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60947028.amp

Now relented a bit. But still no ban on CT for trans people.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ignore your own politics this is very brave.


https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/news/statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp-30th-march-2022


https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/press-releases/follow-up-statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp

Well done to him (possibly soon to be her) for going public. I read he was blackmailed by somebody about this matter not so long ago.

He's married with two children. I can't imagine coming to terms with something like that; one can only wonder what's going through the mind of his children. Good luck to all of them, during their difficult journey.

It's also significant that the first trans MP should be a Tory. I have noticed lately that transgenderism was being used by the right as their new culture wars issue: asking Labour politicians to define a woman etc. The Tories thought they could exploit another minority group, whip up public hostility against them and thus entice some of the public into voting against their own best interests. It's the old divide and rule strategy. Entirely cynical on their part, but a convenient distraction from their many scandals. So, how will they play it now? Jamie Wallis has put a spanner in their works with his announcement, and how will his constituents react? Many Tory voters won't be happy with him.

[lapsedhibee]

Well done to him (possibly soon to be her) for going public. I read he was blackmailed by somebody about this matter not so long ago.

He's married with two children. I can't imagine coming to terms with something like that; one can only wonder what's going through the mind of his children. Good luck to all of them, during their difficult journey.

It's also significant that the first trans MP should be a Tory. I have noticed lately that transgenderism was being used by the right as their new culture wars issue: asking Labour politicians to define a woman etc. The Tories thought they could exploit another minority group, whip up public hostility against them and thus entice some of the public into voting against their own best interests. It's the old divide and rule strategy. Entirely cynical on their part, but a convenient distraction from their many scandals. So, how will they play it now? Jamie Wallis has put a spanner in their works with his announcement, and how will his constituents react? Many Tory voters won't be happy with him.

Could they not just throw him out of the party? For being inconvenient, like Dominic Grieve etc. :dunno:

[WhileTheChief..]

Well done to him (possibly soon to be her) for going public. I read he was blackmailed by somebody about this matter not so long ago.

He's married with two children. I can't imagine coming to terms with something like that; one can only wonder what's going through the mind of his children. Good luck to all of them, during their difficult journey.

It's also significant that the first trans MP should be a Tory. I have noticed lately that transgenderism was being used by the right as their new culture wars issue: asking Labour politicians to define a woman etc. The Tories thought they could exploit another minority group, whip up public hostility against them and thus entice some of the public into voting against their own best interests. It's the old divide and rule strategy. Entirely cynical on their part, but a convenient distraction from their many scandals. So, how will they play it now? Jamie Wallis has put a spanner in their works with his announcement, and how will his constituents react? Many Tory voters won't be happy with him.

You sure about this? Conservatives were pretty quick with gay marriage etc.

To suggest that Conservative voters won't be happy with this is pretty insulting.

If people have gender issues, they probably predate any political thoughts by years. Jamie Wallis probably wouldn't have joined the Conservative party if what you say is true.

I've nothing to back this up, but I'd imagine there are just as many trans people vote Conservative as vote Labour / SNP / Greens etc.

I really don't see the connection between who someone votes for and their gender / sexuality.

[CapitalGreen]

You sure about this? Conservatives were pretty quick with gay marriage etc.

To suggest that Conservative voters won't be happy with this is pretty insulting.

If people have gender issues, they probably predate any political thoughts by years. Jamie Wallis probably wouldn't have joined the Conservative party if what you say is true.

I've nothing to back this up, but I'd imagine there are just as many trans people vote Conservative as vote Labour / SNP / Greens etc.

I really don't see the connection between who someone votes for and their gender / sexuality.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

[lapsedhibee]

You sure about this? Conservatives were pretty quick with gay marriage etc.

To suggest that Conservative voters won't be happy with this is pretty insulting.

If people have gender issues, they probably predate any political thoughts by years. Jamie Wallis probably wouldn't have joined the Conservative party if what you say is true.

I've nothing to back this up, but I'd imagine there are just as many trans people vote Conservative as vote Labour / SNP / Greens etc.

I really don't see the connection between who someone votes for and their gender / sexuality.

Going right back to prehistory and the 1967 bill which decriminalised homosexuality, and arguably kicked off all modern equality legislation, "Both the major parties permitted a conscience vote. Labour and Liberal members were mostly in favour, while Conservative members were mostly opposed." (Thatcher voted for the bill though.)

[WhileTheChief..]

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

I’ve tried, but I don’t understand this.

[CropleyWasGod]

I’ve tried, but I don’t understand this.

It suggests that there is a correlation between one's political beliefs and one's attitudes towards trans issues.

For example, those who identify as Tories disagree with almost every statement put to them.

[Stairway 2 7]

Britain and women surprisingly against quite a lot. No surprise everyone against trans women playing female sports and most against them using women's changing rooms

[Hibernia&Alba]

You sure about this? Conservatives were pretty quick with gay marriage etc.

To suggest that Conservative voters won't be happy with this is pretty insulting.

If people have gender issues, they probably predate any political thoughts by years. Jamie Wallis probably wouldn't have joined the Conservative party if what you say is true.

I've nothing to back this up, but I'd imagine there are just as many trans people vote Conservative as vote Labour / SNP / Greens etc.

I really don't see the connection between who someone votes for and their gender / sexuality.

It's anecdotal of course, but if one is a conservative (lower case c) then by definition that person is less likely to support progressive change. The right wing media is certainly less welcoming of minority groups of all kinds, be they ethnic minorities, immigrants, LGBT etc. The Conservative Party has a history of appealing to people's fears and prejudices against minority groups. Just look at the current government's latest immigration and asylum Bill, led by asylum seeker Priti Patel! They scaremongered against gay men in the 1980s via the infamous 'Section 18' clause in an Education Act. They have demonised unmarried mothers and welfare claimants; then look at the ridiculous xenophobia during the Brexit referendum. There are so many historical examples of their appeals to the mob, and recently they have been angling against transgenders via their fixation upon defining a woman, in an attempt to demean a vulnerable group. They know it's a tactic that works.

[WhileTheChief..]

It suggests that there is a correlation between one's political beliefs and one's attitudes towards trans issues.

For example, those who identify as Tories disagree with almost every statement put to them.

Yeah, but take the very last statement as an example.

What’s your view if you’re a 70 year old Labour voter? :confused:

As a 50 year old Conservative who voted to leave, I agree with pretty much every statement in the list! Now I’m even more confused!

[Stairway 2 7]

I think it's up to women if trans women should use changing rooms, if some don't want penises in their that should surely be respected

[CropleyWasGod]

Yeah, but take the very last statement as an example.

What’s your view if you’re a 70 year old Labour voter? :confused:

As a 50 year old Conservative who voted to leave, I agree with pretty much every statement in the list! Now I’m even more confused!

Not sure why you're confused. It's an opinion poll, canvassing the views of 1688 people. It's not going to accurately reflect the views of absolutely everybody in the country.

Also, the red crosses don't signify "everybody" in that category. They signify a majority.

So you are in the minority. 😉

[WhileTheChief..]

It's anecdotal of course, but if one is a conservative (lower case c) then by definition that person is less likely to support progressive change. The right wing media is certainly less welcoming of minority groups of all kinds, be they ethnic minorities, immigrants, LGBT etc. The Conservative Party has a history of appealing to people's fears and prejudices against minority groups. Just look at the current government's latest immigration and asylum Bill, led by asylum seeker Priti Patel! They scaremongered against gay men in the 1980s via the infamous 'Section 18' clause in an Education Act. They have demonised unmarried mothers and welfare claimants; then look at the ridiculous xenophobia during the Brexit referendum. There are so many historical examples of their appeals to the mob, and recently they have been angling against transgenders. with their fixation upon defining a woman, in an attempt to demean a vulnerable group. They know it's a tactic to that works.

I'm straying off topic here, but why do so many people from ethnic minorities vote Conservative?

Why are there Conservative MPs with ethnic backgrounds?

This just doesn't add up. I think you're vastly overstating things here or equating the 'right wing media' with the Conservative party.

Ruth Davidson, for example, was hugely popular. Her sexuality didn't do her any harm at all.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not sure why you're confused. It's an opinion poll, canvassing the views of 1688 people. It's not going to accurately reflect the views of absolutely everybody in the country.

Also, the red crosses don't signify "everybody" in that category. They signify a majority.

So you are in the minority. 😉

Like all you gov polls it's an average of people who actually go online and fill yougov polls.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm straying off topic here, but why do so many people from ethnic minorities vote Conservative?

Why are there Conservative MPs with ethnic backgrounds?

This just doesn't add up. I think you're vastly overstating things here or equating the 'right wing media' with the Conservative party.

Ruth Davidson, for example, was hugely popular. Her sexuality didn't do her any harm at all.

I'm reminded of the John Stuart Mill quote that not all conservatives are stupid, but all stupid people are conservative :greengrin. Similarly, not all conservatives are reactionary (you aren't) but all reactionaries are conservative, hence the name of the party is 'Conservative', a word meaning defending the existing order. That inevitably means prejudice against those outside the mainstream will be more common on the right; when taken to extremes we arrive at the far right.

I wouldn't know why some minorities vote for a party that is at best ambivalent, and at worst hostile to them. Perhaps economic self-interest is a motivation? Those who believe in solidarity don't vote Tory, after all. It isn't a catch all - there are anomalies - but the Tories have a history of distracting voters away from their own wellbeing by scapegoating minority groups. I think they (some Tory politicians and their pals in the media) have been weaponising the trans issue recently, yet now one of their own MPs has announced he is transsexual, which will, hopefully, make them more sensitive in their tone. I think it might pull the rug from under the Tory right.

[Mcbizz1998]

Like all you gov polls it's an average of people who actually go online and fill yougov polls.

Yep - and that takes a certain type of person.

[Mr Grieves]

Yep - and that takes a certain type of person.

Going by that poll it clearly takes all types

[LewysGot2]

You sure about this? Conservatives were pretty quick with gay marriage etc.

To suggest that Conservative voters won't be happy with this is pretty insulting.

If people have gender issues, they probably predate any political thoughts by years. Jamie Wallis probably wouldn't have joined the Conservative party if what you say is true.

I've nothing to back this up, but I'd imagine there are just as many trans people vote Conservative as vote Labour / SNP / Greens etc.

I really don't see the connection between who someone votes for and their gender / sexuality.

A lot of the main players in the defending women's rights camp are left wing and also lesbian.

The discussion and debate around this has become a political football from those it suits to present it as such but the reality is there's cross party alignments involved regardless of viewpoint especially on the women's rights side.

This Tory MP has been reported as being involved in a lot of dodgy business related stuff including having the Ministry of Justice banning his company from taking clients. He was reported as being owner of a business called Sugar Daddy that pimped out young students to older men in business transactions to pay their student fees. He has also recently been charged with leaving the scene of an accident after his car was found wrapped round an inanimate object.

Acceptance without exception is a trans ally principle that up until this point seems to have been very much the case but its interesting to note some more notable campaigners are questioning Wallis' position and integrity including the likes of the very vocal LGBTQIA+ campaigner Peter Tatchell.

It's sad Wallis' family are forgotten in all of this - 2 daughters and a wife who must have had their world turned upside down.

[Keith_M]

Yeah, but take the very last statement as an example.

What’s your view if you’re a 70 year old Labour voter? :confused:

As a 50 year old Conservative who voted to leave, I agree with pretty much every statement in the list! Now I’m even more confused!


I don't think it means that 100% of Conservative voters are against all the issues stated. Presumably it's a majority of those asked their views.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think broadly most people will agree with more rights for trans people, but with caveats. It's clear people don't want trans women playing female sports. And most women or certainly a big percentage don't want them in changing rooms. Surely that's a good push forward compared to where we were 20 years ago.

We could push businesses to have a few unisex changing cubicles, like we did for needing disabled toilets in premises

[Hibernia&Alba]

A lot of the main players in the defending women's rights camp are left wing and also lesbian.

The discussion and debate around this has become a political football from those it suits to present it as such but the reality is there's cross party alignments involved regardless of viewpoint especially on the women's rights side.

This Tory MP has been reported as being involved in a lot of dodgy business related stuff including having the Ministry of Justice banning his company from taking clients. He was reported as being owner of a business called Sugar Daddy that pimped out young students to older men in business transactions to pay their student fees. He has also recently been charged with leaving the scene of an accident after his car was found wrapped round an inanimate object.

Acceptance without exception is a trans ally principle that up until this point seems to have been very much the case but its interesting to note some more notable campaigners are questioning Wallis' position and integrity including the likes of the very vocal LGBTQIA+ campaigner Peter Tatchell.

It's sad Wallis' family are forgotten in all of this - 2 daughters and a wife who must have had their world turned upside down.



1 - I agree with this, but I think that, as usual, it's prominent right wingers, both inside and outside the political system who are trying to politicise it, as part of their perpetual 'culture wars' tactic of sowing division. They are trying to exploit it to win votes, just as they have in the past in relation to other minority groups.


2 - I have no idea but these things, but it's separate from his transgenderism. He might well be a terrible person (he's a Tory MP after all :wink:) but it isn't relevant to his recent announcement.


3 - That's exactly what I said above. His family must be in turmoil just now, trying to come to terms with it all.

[LewysGot2]

2 - I have no idea but these things, but it's separate from his transgenderism. He might well be a terrible person (he's a Tory MP after all :wink:) but it isn't relevant to his recent announcement.

.

There's been a few items (from commentators on the left) suggesting that the announcement might well be linked to him potentially being in enough bother to get the jail. It wouldn't be the first time a Tory MP made one headline gaining announcement or leak to take the heat off something else. I'm not saying this is absolutely the case here but it's not completely unthinkable.

He's not changing his presentation, he's not starting any treatment and he's keeping his pronouns as he/him. Which was why I mentioned the trans rights allies usual belief of acceptance without exceptions is being tested at present. Some very vocal trans allies on the left aren't buying it.

[superfurryhibby]

A lot of the main players in the defending women's rights camp are left wing and also lesbian.

The discussion and debate around this has become a political football from those it suits to present it as such but the reality is there's cross party alignments involved regardless of viewpoint especially on the women's rights side.

This Tory MP has been reported as being involved in a lot of dodgy business related stuff including having the Ministry of Justice banning his company from taking clients. He was reported as being owner of a business called Sugar Daddy that pimped out young students to older men in business transactions to pay their student fees. He has also recently been charged with leaving the scene of an accident after his car was found wrapped round an inanimate object.

Acceptance without exception is a trans ally principle that up until this point seems to have been very much the case but its interesting to note some more notable campaigners are questioning Wallis' position and integrity including the likes of the very vocal LGBTQIA+ campaigner Peter Tatchell.

It's sad Wallis' family are forgotten in all of this - 2 daughters and a wife who must have had their world turned upside down.

That’s a sweeping generalisation of the very crudest kind.

[Keith_M]

That’s a sweeping generalisation of the very crudest kind.


TBF, he/she/they said 'A lot...', not 'most' or 'all'.

[LewysGot2]

That’s a sweeping generalisation of the very crudest kind.

Is it?

I'm saying that a number of the key people on the "women's rights" end of the debate are not Conservative and some are LGBT. Like Joanna Cherry and Allison Bailey. And others.

Allison Bailey is suing Stonewall just now. She's (from her own biography) worked in the Mission District, in San Francisco, California; the epicentre of gay and radical left political activism, respectively, at the height of the AIDS epidemic.

She did voluntary work as a left wing Black British woman working with African-American women on a local level to provide advocacy, community support and friendship to other black women, straight and LGB, facing social, health and income inequality in the San Francisco Bay Area. She's no right winger.



My comment wasn't intended as a generalisation and simply a counter to the right wing v left wing assertions. I'm saying that there is cross party, cross politics at play in this single issue. Its not Trans Rights Left, Women's rights, erm, right.
In effect challenging the generalisations...

[LewysGot2]

TBF, he/she/they said 'A lot...', not 'most' or 'all'.

Indeed.

[He's here!]

Is it?

I'm saying that a number of the key people on the "women's rights" end of the debate are not Conservative and some are LGBT. Like Joanna Cherry and Allison Bailey. And others.

Allison Bailey is suing Stonewall just now. She's (from her own biography) worked in the Mission District, in San Francisco, California; the epicentre of gay and radical left political activism, respectively, at the height of the AIDS epidemic.

She did voluntary work as a left wing Black British woman working with African-American women on a local level to provide advocacy, community support and friendship to other black women, straight and LGB, facing social, health and income inequality in the San Francisco Bay Area. She's no right winger.



My comment wasn't intended as a generalisation and simply a counter to the right wing v left wing assertions. I'm saying that there is cross party, cross politics at play in this single issue. Its not Trans Rights Left, Women's rights, erm, right.
In effect challenging the generalisations...

That's why JK Rowling is such a straight bat in all this. Somebody of no fixed political persuasion, prepared to take politicians of all colours to task - as well as being so successful as to be untouchable by the cancel culture heidbangers.

She's pretty much the only one who cuts to the chase on this issue (unlike the tongue-tied efforts if Starmer & co last week) ie just because you happen to believe that biology can't be ignored doesn't make you a bigot.

[Ozyhibby]

That's why JK Rowling is such a straight bat in all this. Somebody of no fixed political persuasion, prepared to take politicians of all colours to task - as well as being so successful as to be untouchable by the cancel culture heidbangers.

She's pretty much the only one who cuts to the chase on this issue (unlike the tongue-tied efforts if Starmer & co last week) ie just because you happen to believe that biology can't be ignored doesn't make you a bigot.

No fixed political persuasion? J.K. Rowling? [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

No fixed political persuasion? J.K. Rowling? [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A good friend of Gordon Brown sure and (I think) a donator to the Labour Party in the past, but scathing lately about Starmer and as anti-Corbyn as she is the Tories. Anti-independence, but then so are (at least) half the Scottish population. What I mean is you can't really pin her down as wedded unflinchingly to one particular political brand.

[He's here!]

Equality and human rights commission issues update on single sex spaces:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/apr/04/trans-people-can-be-excluded-single-sex-services-if-justifiable-says-ehrc

[CropleyWasGod]

Johnson getting another kicking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60988210

[Hibernia&Alba]

Johnson getting another kicking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60988210

The overturning over the conversion therapy ban is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to about the Tories. What purpose does that serve, other than exploiting the issue to win favour with social conservatives and reactionaries? It isn't based upon science, it's a political stunt for right wing populism.

[CropleyWasGod]

The overturning over the conversion therapy ban is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to about the Tories. What purpose does that serve, other than exploiting the issue to win favour with social conservatives and reactionaries? It isn't based upon science, it's a political stunt for right wing populism.

One of their own kicking them now. Their own LGBT "Business Champion" resigns over the CT stuff.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/iain-anderson-lgbt-business-champion-resigns-conversion-therapy-boris-johnson-u-turn_uk_624c3ceae4b0e44de9c717f6

[Hibernia&Alba]

One of their own kicking them now. Their own LGBT "Business Champion" resigns over the CT stuff.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/iain-anderson-lgbt-business-champion-resigns-conversion-therapy-boris-johnson-u-turn_uk_624c3ceae4b0e44de9c717f6

And fair play to him. He clearly sees the U-turn for the political stunt it is, throwing another vulnerable group under the bus, in order to appease the core Tory vote when the government is experiencing one crisis after another. It's a gimmick, designed to appeal to the Daily Mail and Express readers in middle England. After the lockdown party scandal, they even named the tactic "Operation Save Big Dog" i.e. throwing red meat to the Tory base. This is one example; other victims will include refugees and welfare recipients, as new Bills designed to make their lives even more unpleasant are going through parliament.

[He's here!]

'The EHRC has had the bottle to point out that women and transwomen are not the same':

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/has-the-transgender-bathroom-question-finally-been-answered-?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=BLND%20%2020220405%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20IH+CID_716abc85e7fd7d19f23b1727b793e590

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/ehrc-single-sex-spaces-guidance-could-lead-employers-into-unlawfulness/

Amazing how different interpretation is possible.

[CropleyWasGod]

Johnson getting another kicking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60988210

The conference has been cancelled.

The Government may not be that disappointed 😏

[Stairway 2 7]

Sky News
@SkyNews
PM says 'biological males' should not compete in female sport and venues should have women only spaces

The majority of britians in that poll agreed, so probably not that controversial

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sky News
@SkyNews
PM says 'biological males' should not compete in female sport and venues should have women only spaces

The majority of britians in that poll agreed, so probably not that controversial

Venues should definitely have women only spaces whenever Bozo is around!

[danhibees1875]

Sky News
@SkyNews
PM says 'biological males' should not compete in female sport and venues should have women only spaces

The majority of britians in that poll agreed, so probably not that controversial

I'd probably be inclined to agree about female sports being for females(as born) only. I'm not too fussed for a rule the other way around, hypocrite or pragmatic?

Woman only spaces is fine, but that doesn't sound like it answers the question that is presumably at the heart of the issue i.e. when can a man start to count as, or declare themselves as, a woman.
From context being next to the sports answer I assume it's the same answer and I'm not as ready to agree with that outright (although I understand the reasons), where does a trans-woman go to change/bathroom if there's only 2 options and that's the rule? :dunno:

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd probably be inclined to agree about female sports being for females(as born) only. I'm not too fussed for a rule the other way around, hypocrite or pragmatic?

Woman only spaces is fine, but that doesn't sound like it answers the question that is presumably at the heart of the issue i.e. when can a man start to count as, or declare themselves as, a woman.
From context being next to the sports answer I assume it's the same answer and I'm not as ready to agree with that outright (although I understand the reasons), where does a trans-woman go to change/bathroom if there's only 2 options and that's the rule? :dunno:

I think unisex changing cubicles should be a legal thing like needing disabled toilets. I know trans people aren't happy with that as they feel they shouldn't be singled out and should go into the changing area of their choice. But if some biological women are unhappy with people with penises are in there women only areas, then their rights should be respected. Same for women's only crisis homes ect

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think unisex changing cubicles should be a legal thing like needing disabled toilets. I know trans people aren't happy with that as they feel they shouldn't be singled out and should go into the changing area of their choice. But if some biological women are unhappy with people with penises are in there women only areas, then their rights should be respected. Same for women's only crisis homes ect

Anyone ever been in a place with unisex toilets? I've only experienced it once (a bar) and must admit I felt very self-conscious going in, taking a quick look around to ensure I didn't spot any women around before I entered a cubicle.

[Stairway 2 7]

Anyone ever been in a place with unisex toilets? I've only experienced it once (a bar) and must admit I felt very self-conscious going in, taking a quick look around to ensure I didn't spot any women around before I entered a cubicle.

Quite a few places and have them in my work. Some have just the toilet in the cubicle and shared sinks ect which is weird. The better ones have toilets sinks and dryer in each one, do what you need in and out. The only downside is urinals are even faster I suppose

[CropleyWasGod]

Anyone ever been in a place with unisex toilets? I've only experienced it once (a bar) and must admit I felt very self-conscious going in, taking a quick look around to ensure I didn't spot any women around before I entered a cubicle.

The Queen's Hall has them. Some University buildings too.

It is a cultural thing; as you say, we can get self-conscious about them. Like all cultural changes, though, they take time and will soon become second nature.

[Moulin Yarns]

Nobody seems to be able to look at the issue of female to male transgender people, it's always about how do women feel about their space being infiltrated by 'people with a *****'.

[Stairway 2 7]

Nobody seems to be able to look at the issue of female to male transgender people, it's always about how do women feel about their space being infiltrated by 'people with a *****'.

It's because with sports it's the clear physical advantage. No one would mind if there wasn't an advantage so wouldn't mind if female to male competed. The same with changing rooms as I doubt many men would feel physically threatened by a female to male being in the changing room.

[danhibees1875]

It's because with sports it's the clear physical advantage. No one would mind if there wasn't an advantage so wouldn't mind if female to male competed. The same with changing rooms as I doubt many men would feel physically threatened by a female to male being in the changing room.

:agree:

If either were as big a topic then they would get discussed accordingly.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness/transgender-athletes-to-watch

Worth a read as it looks at trans sports people.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/


An American perspective on the 'harm' to cis women in sports.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness/transgender-athletes-to-watch

Worth a read as it looks at trans sports people.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/


An American perspective on the 'harm' to cis women in sports.

What a one-sided and absolute nonsense piece the second one is. Trans athletes technically aren't always better than women is the argument. Genetic differences sometimes doesn't make up for form pish. There an obvious physical advantage and people shouldn't act stupid about it. The fact most trans athletes go from being mediocre males to top women tells its own story. If you think trans women should be able to fight in boxing and mma against biological women I'd go further and say you were sick.

[500miles]

https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness/transgender-athletes-to-watch

Worth a read as it looks at trans sports people.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/


An American perspective on the 'harm' to cis women in sports.

Both poor articles, the second one borderline propagandistic in it's presentation.

[Moulin Yarns]

What a one-sided and absolute nonsense piece the second one is. Trans athletes technically aren't always better than women is the argument. Genetic differences sometimes doesn't make up for form pish. There an obvious physical advantage and people shouldn't act stupid about it. The fact most trans athletes go from being mediocre males to top women tells its own story. If you think trans women should be able to fight in boxing and mma against biological women I'd go further and say you were sick.

Why then have I seen on this thread the argument that boys outperform Olympic female athletes?

[Stairway 2 7]

Why then have I seen on this thread the argument that boys outperform Olympic female athletes?

I'm lost? They do it was a fact from the US boys final. Even by 17 and 18 a boy can outperform the best women, it's just physical difference. Muscle shape, bone density, skeletal shape

[LewysGot2]

Nobody seems to be able to look at the issue of female to male transgender people, it's always about how do women feel about their space being infiltrated by 'people with a *****'.
Absolutely. Trans men and trans women both compete in female sport. That says something in itself. Trans women are allowed testosterone levels which, if female competitors were to have, they would be banned. That said, it’s about way more than testosterone levels as women are not just small men with lower testosterone levels. It’s muscle bulk potential, bone density, lung capacity and hip width - male swimmers are more streamlined because they have narrower hips. Then there’s the impact of menstrual cycles, pregnancy and childbirth on careers, ability to train properly every week of the year and having to make choices between children and competing. Martin Boyle and his wife face very different challenges through their careers.
There’s lots of campaigning for Female category and an Open category. As it stands the open category is actually the female one and the Male category is not.

Equal opportunities mean we need to have categories to encourage equal access to fair competition and to encourage participation in under represented groups. Having situations where 40 something old trans women qualify for the Olympics in the female category isn’t going to achieve that. And it's never going to be an issue the other way round

The toilets thing is a different issue and recently has seen some places' toilets becoming effectively unisex and male including the new Costa at the top of Easter Road until there was uproar about it. Biological women are disadvantaged toilet wise in the sense that urinals allow a greater number of biological males to use their mens facilities quicker and in a different manner via urinals. Note the queues always at concerts, sports events etc for the ladies v the gents. There’s going to be a decrease in capacity for venues if everything had to be cubicles and unisex. Imagine Easter Road with gender neutral loos. Consider who is going to be impacted…kids, women are going to feel less able to use the loos given the nature of how the gents loos are used at football. And so likely wiould many males. Not that long ago Easter Road only had one female loo in a portacabin at the back of the East. Even then it was invaded by males pissing in sinks. My daughter was delighted when we finally got proper facilities for females and finally felt actually able to safely use the loos at the football when the ground was redeveloped . I used to feel really bad for her prior to that.

[Paul1642]

Nobody seems to be able to look at the issue of female to male transgender people, it's always about how do women feel about their space being infiltrated by 'people with a *****'.

I’m not really sure what point you are trying to make? Male to female can have a huge physical advantage over females in a way that does not apply the other direction?

Also females are more likely to be weary of men than the other way around and should be able to use changing rooms and toilets with only those born female if they so wish.

[Moulin Yarns]

I’m not really sure what point you are trying to make? Male to female can have a huge physical advantage over females in a way that does not apply the other direction?

Also females are more likely to be weary of men than the other way around and should be able to use changing rooms and toilets with only those born female if they so wish.

Why should it always be about sports?

What proportion of transsexuals are sports persons?


That's just a distraction from the needs of the genuine trans people in this country and the world generally.

[147lothian]

I'm lost with this one

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/olympics/controversial-swimmer-beaten-by-fellow-transgender-athlete-in-first-meet-since-sparking-outrage/ar-AASCNFd?ocid=msedgntp

Controversial swimmer beaten by fellow transgender athlete in first meet since sparking outrage

Controversial swimmer Lia Thomas was crushed by fellow transgender athlete Iszac Henig in front of stunned onlookers in an Ivy League women's swim meet in the US.

Thomas, a*swimmer*at the University of Pennsylvania who transitioned from male to female in recent years, garnered attention when she smashed two US women's records in the 200m and 500m freestyle disciplines last year.

Making her return to competition over the weekend, Thomas took part in four races during an Ivy League meeting against rivals Dartmouth and Hale, and won her first two, but was beaten in her second two by Henig, who is currently transitioning from female to male.

Thomas finished fifth in the 100-yard freestyle in a time of 52.84 seconds, while Henig was over three seconds faster at 49.57 seconds.

Lia Thomas was a mediocre swimmer ranked 462 in the male category. Lia Thomas then transitions enters the female category and smashes the 200m and 500m free style disciplines, beating three American silver medalists. It has to be the end of female sport if a person with bollocks can identify as a female and enter into female sport.

I have a live and let live attitude, I believe that trans rights should be protected. I would agree totally with an open category that trans people can enter, but female sport should be a protected category for biological females only, a person who goes through puberty as a male should not be allowed to enter the female category, I can see sporty females thinking what is the point of trying to be the best I can be if a mediocre male can identify as woman and smash female records.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Just an honest question here: has anyone on here ever met, or does anyone know, a transgender person? I haven't. This issue seems to get attention that far outweighs its influence in society.

Does anyone know how many transgender people there are in the UK?

[CropleyWasGod]

Just an honest question here: has anyone on here ever met, or does anyone know, a transgender person? I haven't. This issue seems to get attention that far outweighs its influence in society.

Does anyone know how many transgender people there are in the UK?

I know quite a few, through work and personally. I have almost certainly met others, without knowing.

I suspect that the latter will be true for most people.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I know quite a few, through work and personally. I have almost certainly met others, without knowing.

I suspect that the latter will be true for most people.

It could be I've met some without realising it, true. I am suspicious of those in the media who keep hammering away at this issue. The focus upon it seems out of proportion to the number of people affected, which I fear leaves a small and vulnerable group wide open to being mis-represented and suffering public prejudice, like other very small groups, such as travellers. All public debates on the issue I have heard have been dominated by cynical ignorance and 'common sense' i.e. the lowest common denominator.

[Ozyhibby]

Why should it always be about sports?

What proportion of transsexuals are sports persons?


That's just a distraction from the needs of the genuine trans people in this country and the world generally.

Sports probably comes up a lot because that’s the only area of life where some people don’t think they can have the same rights. Every other area of life I’m all for trans people doing what ever makes them happy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Just an honest question here: has anyone on here ever met, or does anyone know, a transgender person? I haven't. This issue seems to get attention that far outweighs its influence in society.

Does anyone know how many transgender people there are in the UK?

Yes, one of my friend's kids is transgender. It's been interesting to witness their journey. I also worked with an older transgender woman years ago, before the issue became the hot potato is has now. Charming colleague who, incidentally, would never have tried to argue that biological sex is irrelevant.

I don't agree that the issue's influence on society is minimal, but it IS a minimal number of people who have blown things way out of proportion by trying to merge the rights of women and trans people together. All it has done is spark an increasingly toxic debate and unnecessarily fuel suspicion of trans people. Claims at the weekend by Lorna Slater of the Greens (Harvie's sidekick) that those expressing concerns for women's rights are somehow 'racist' certainly don't help, but then I always feel she comes across as a bit glaikit.

[CropleyWasGod]

It could be I've met some without realising it, true. I am suspicious of those in the media who keep hammering away at this issue. The focus upon it seems out of proportion to the number of people affected, which I fear leaves a small and vulnerable group wide open to being mis-represented and suffering public prejudice, like other very small groups, such as travellers. All public debates on the issue I have heard have been dominated by cynical ignorance and 'common sense' i.e. the lowest common denominator.

As has been said a few times, there are so many echoes of the LGB "debates" of the 70's and 80's, but this time ramped up by social media. The latter, for me, fuels so much of the toxicity that HH mentioned.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Kudos to Emily Thornberry, exactly my point: stop trying to exploit these people for personal gain and personal agendas.


https://youtu.be/s0AHTdmis-Q

[500miles]

Kudos to Emily Thornberry, exactly my point: stop trying to exploit these people for personal gain and personal agendas.


https://youtu.be/s0AHTdmis-Q

"Born in the wrong body"

That's leaning towards the idea of a soul, and that sort of pseudo religious patter is when I start to get upset. I don't want prayer in schools and I certainly don't want legislation based on the idea that we exist beyond the our physical bodies, because that's really dangerous. We could extend that to the idea that unborn children have souls, and therefore we have another garbage arguement about abortion.

[CropleyWasGod]

"Born in the wrong body"

That's leaning towards the idea of a soul, and that sort of pseudo religious patter is when I start to get upset. I don't want prayer in schools and I certainly don't want legislation based on the idea that we exist beyond the our physical bodies, because that's really dangerous. We could extend that to the idea that unborn children have souls, and therefore we have another garbage arguement about abortion.

It's also a sound bite, the type of which doesn't help a complicated,emotive and nuanced debate.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's also a sound bite, the type of which doesn't help a complicated,emotive and nuanced debate.

She isn't a clinician nor a psychologist, and perhaps "born in the wrong body" is a poor description (I don't know) but it's an issue many people, myself included, have little to no expertise on. It's difficult to understand the idea of feeling one is the wrong gender. As I said previously, it's certainly beyond my understanding, and I would guess many people feel the same. Emily Thornberry makes a very good point that some sections of the media and politics are taking advantage of public fear surrounding an unusual issue for their own benefit, playing upon ignorance. Transgender people are the latest pawns in the 'culture wars' agenda, and Emily is asking for compassion and the avoidance of lashing out at something a lot of folk might find frightening. It's the humane approach.

[500miles]

She isn't a clinician nor a psychologist, and perhaps "born in the wrong body" is a poor description (I don't know) but it's an issue many people, myself included, have little to no expertise on. It's difficult to understand the idea of feeling one is the wrong gender. As I said previously, it's certainly beyond my understanding, and I would guess many people feel the same. Emily Thornberry makes a very good point that some sections of the media and politics are taking advantage of public fear surrounding an unusual issue for their own benefit, playing upon ignorance. Transgender people are the latest pawns in the 'culture wars' agenda, and Emily is asking for compassion and the avoidance of lashing out at something a lot of folk might find frightening. It's the humane approach.

Many people feel like they can talk to God through prayer - we don't take that literally, nor do we enshrine it legally.

You're right of course when it comes to the culture war. This is low hanging fruit for the far right when they want to appear "reasonable". That's why I wish the left weren't so entrenched in slogans and soundbites like Thornberry's or "Trans Women are Women." All it takes is an acknowledgement of nuance or to clarify that nobody is seeking to blur the lines between sex and gender, and a that "reasonable" position loses power.

[superfurryhibby]

Just an honest question here: has anyone on here ever met, or does anyone know, a transgender person? I haven't. This issue seems to get attention that far outweighs its influence in society.

Does anyone know how many transgender people there are in the UK?

Yes, my cousin’s offspring has gone down the full surgical route. She is now he/him.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yes, my cousin’s offspring has gone down the full surgical route. She is now he/him.

How long was the process in total? How did the family react initially?

[LewysGot2]

Will be interesting to see if the proposed custodial sentence being spoken about in court today is imposed where this individual is going to be housed - judge seemingly ow looking into a suspended sentence


https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/12/ex-soldier-exposed-her-*****-and-used-wheelie-bin-as-sex-toy-in-public-16454386/amp/


Filters for the site here is causing the link not to work. The word asterisked out is a male organ.

[147lothian]

Yes, one of my friend's kids is transgender. It's been interesting to witness their journey. I also worked with an older transgender woman years ago, before the issue became the hot potato is has now. Charming colleague who, incidentally, would never have tried to argue that biological sex is irrelevant.

I don't agree that the issue's influence on society is minimal, but it IS a minimal number of people who have blown things way out of proportion by trying to merge the rights of women and trans people together. All it has done is spark an increasingly toxic debate and unnecessarily fuel suspicion of trans people. Claims at the weekend by Lorna Slater of the Greens (Harvie's sidekick) that those expressing concerns for women's rights are somehow 'racist' certainly don't help, but then I always feel she comes across as a bit glaikit.

I tend to agree with this, I would imagine that for most transgender people if there is no such thing as biological sex there is no such thing as transgender. I would imagine that most transgender woman know that they are not biological woman they are men who choose to identify as woman. For me there is a big difference between transgender people who just want to get on with their lives and the gender extremists who argue that trans woman should be included in the female lesbian dating pool, and that a lesbian who refuses to date a transwoman is a TERF, a transphobe and a racist etc etc

For me the reason the gender extremists get so nasty towards feminists is because they know that their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny this is why they resort to closing down debate and name calling.

The logical end point of the slogan transwoman are woman are summed up in this article where a man who identifies as a woman and is attracted to women goes for a shower and exposes his ***** in the female changing room, this is what progress looks like.

https://www.independentsentinel.com/bio-male-lia-thomas-exposes-her-male-genitals-in-the-locker-room

[Stairway 2 7]

😆 lesbian sex can have consequences these days 👶

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2022/04/14/edna-mahan-womens-prisoners-pregnant-after-sex-with-transgender-inmate/amp/

Two inmates serving time in New Jersey’s only state prison for women became pregnant after they had sex with a transgender inmate, according to a report Wednesday.

[superfurryhibby]

How long was the process in total? How did the family react initially?

Well he is in his 20’s and I think people just supported a person they love.

[superfurryhibby]

Yes, one of my friend's kids is transgender. It's been interesting to witness their journey. I also worked with an older transgender woman years ago, before the issue became the hot potato is has now. Charming colleague who, incidentally, would never have tried to argue that biological sex is irrelevant.

I don't agree that the issue's influence on society is minimal, but it IS a minimal number of people who have blown things way out of proportion by trying to merge the rights of women and trans people together. All it has done is spark an increasingly toxic debate and unnecessarily fuel suspicion of trans people. Claims at the weekend by Lorna Slater of the Greens (Harvie's sidekick) that those expressing concerns for women's rights are somehow 'racist' certainly don't help, but then I always feel she comes across as a bit glaikit.

Good post.

The path this takes us down is alarming to me. Thought police, hate crime, wokeism, control. The enemies of freedom of speech.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Well he is in his 20’s and I think people just supported a person they love.

That's great to hear, it must be an enormous shock initially. It must make all the difference when family are supportive.

[LewysGot2]

Interesting and considered article in the New York Times which, although is considering things from a US perspective where things are different to Western Europe in many ways, not least religion and its influence on politics, it is worth a read. The potential for life long medicalisation of young people does need considered as part of the bigger picture.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/opinion/transgender-culture-war.html?smid=tw-share

[Stairway 2 7]

Joanna Cherry QC
@joannaccherry
🧵In the past week both Lorna Slater and Patrick Harvie have displayed an extraordinary insouciance towards human rights and equality law by seeking to brand women who question legislative proposals based on gender identity theory

as “transphobes”” & akin to “racists” and “anti-Semites”. Ms Slater wants us banned from the airwaves & Mr Harvie wants us disciplined by our political parties. They really need to acquaint themselves with Articles 9 & 10 ECHR which protect freedom of belief

& freedom of speech in this country. They could also do with reading & understanding the Equality Act & the decision of the Employment Appeal Tribunal in case of Maya Forstater v CGD Europe which established that discrimination, harassment, and victimisation
against persons of gender critical belief is unlawful under the Equality Act. While this was an employment law case the prohibition of this sort of discrimination applies to membership organisations, including political parties, in respect of their members

The Green Party of England & Wales is currently being sued by a former leadership candidate for such discrimination. No doubt thats why sensible political parties in Scotland are not pursuing complaints against women merely for holding & expressing such views

in the way that Mr Harvie seems to want. Both MSPs would also do well to take a look at the Public Sector Equality Duty which obliges those in government to have due regard to the need to eliminate discrimination, advance equality of opportunity

and to foster good relations between different protected characteristics. ENDS

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20068666.green-minister-patrick-harvie-accuses-snp-allowing-transphobia-fester-party/?ref=twtrec

Green minister Patrick Harvie accuses SNP of allowing transphobia to 'fester' in the party

GREEN minister Patrick Harvie has accused his SNP partners in government of failing to tackle transphobia by “a significant number of high-profile people” in the party.

Mr Harvie said the issue should have led to disciplinary action by the SNP, but instead it had been “allowed to fester” and people got away with “promoting transphobia

[147lothian]

😆 lesbian sex can have consequences these days 👶

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2022/04/14/edna-mahan-womens-prisoners-pregnant-after-sex-with-transgender-inmate/amp/

Two inmates serving time in New Jersey’s only state prison for women became pregnant after they had sex with a transgender inmate, according to a report Wednesday.

The transgender movement has became Orwellian with the slogan transwomen are women, it's like a religious cult who believe that if they say it often enough it will become true, but it won't no matter how many times it's said, transwomen are not women, they are men who identify as women.

There is something deeply misogynistic about the way the transgender movement call feminist lesbians who want to date biological females TERFS, transphobes and racists, this article is a good example of why it is not a good idea to allow men who identify as women into female spaces such as domestic violence shelters, female changing rooms or female prisons.

[Moulin Yarns]

The transgender movement has became Orwellian with the slogan transwomen are women, it's like a religious cult who believe that if they say it often enough it will become true, but it won't no matter how many times it's said, transwomen are not women, they are men who identify as women.

There is something deeply misogynistic about the way the transgender movement call feminist lesbians who want to date biological females TERFS, transphobes and racists, this article is a good example of why it is not a good idea to allow men who identify as women into female spaces such as domestic violence shelters, female changing rooms or female prisons.

Does this also apply to transsexual women?

[CropleyWasGod]

That's great to hear, it must be an enormous shock initially. It must make all the difference when family are supportive.

Again, echoes with LGB history.

A generation or two ago, families struggled with the idea of their kids being gay. Stonewall Youth was full of people who had been rejected by their families.

Nowadays, society is easier with those situations. But the issues are replicated in families where a kid has gender issues.

My mate's CIS-daughter was in the lucky position, when they were struggling, of having a supportive family who managed to help them through it. Sadly, that's not always the case. My mate now finds himself counselling other parents who are having problems coming to terms with similar situations.

As for his trans-son, he's a man. He's a man to the important people in his life...his mates, his family, his girlfriend, his employer, but most of all to himself.

[147lothian]

https://nypost.com/2022/04/14/edna-mahan-womans-prisoners-pregnant-after-sex-with-transgender-inmate/

This story has now been verified

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/two-female-prisoners-fall-pregnant-26720357

[LewysGot2]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22563262/

Some interesting research papers that lend themselves to the fear some in the LGB community have that gender reassignment can be situations where the person who is struggling with their identity is actually struggling with their sexuality.

[superfurryhibby]

The transgender movement has became Orwellian with the slogan transwomen are women, it's like a religious cult who believe that if they say it often enough it will become true, but it won't no matter how many times it's said, transwomen are not women, they are men who identify as women.

There is something deeply misogynistic about the way the transgender movement call feminist lesbians who want to date biological females TERFS, transphobes and racists, this article is a good example of why it is not a good idea to allow men who identify as women into female spaces such as domestic violence shelters, female changing rooms or female prisons.

I agree with much of what you say. However, I disagree with this part. If you have undergone gender reassignment.

It's not just feminist lesbians who want to date females who get called transphobic and the likes. You have people like the male head of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre castigating opposition and objection to his recruitment with attempts to close down the discussion and silence women.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rape-crisis-chief-mridul-wadhwa-steps-back-from-bigot-comments-2b9kdvc75


"Mridul Wadhwa, 43, a trans woman and former SNP parliamentary candidate who was appointed chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis in May, made the controversial remarks while speaking on a podcast. While discussing trans-inclusion, discrimination and sexual violence on The Guilty Feminist she said: “Sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. But these spaces are also for you.
“But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged"

Read those words and ponder. An anti feminist, biological male, (could also be described as misogynistic and self entitled), talking about challenging women victims of sexual harm who want a biological female staff member to support them.

Utter madness.

[LewysGot2]

I agree with much of what you say. However, I disagree with this part. If you have undergone gender reassignment.

It's not just feminist lesbians who want to date females who get called transphobic and the likes. You have people like the male head of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre castigating opposition and objection to his recruitment with attempts to close down the discussion and silence women.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rape-crisis-chief-mridul-wadhwa-steps-back-from-bigot-comments-2b9kdvc75


"Mridul Wadhwa, 43, a trans woman and former SNP parliamentary candidate who was appointed chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis in May, made the controversial remarks while speaking on a podcast. While discussing trans-inclusion, discrimination and sexual violence on The Guilty Feminist she said: “Sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. But these spaces are also for you.
“But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged"

Read those words and ponder. An anti feminist, biological male, (could also be described as misogynistic and self entitled), talking about challenging women victims of sexual harm who want a biological female staff member to support them.

Utter madness.

Even with surgery, which stats say is the minority of those in the trans umbrella you remain biologically the sex you were assessed as being from conception. It's one of the issues where recording of biological sex is important as the vulnerability to certain health conditions depends on your sex. Every cell in the body contains genetic material directly as a consequence of your sex.

Puberty blockers and other medicalisation can affect the long term health outcomes for people - vulnerability to conditions like osteoporosis are linked to sex hormones and the normal hormonal cycles in sexed bodies. You build up your bone density especially during puberty. It's one of the reasons the male trans identifying athletes who go through male puberty retain physical advantage. However, if you delay or block puberty that process is undermined and there's increased risk of bone fractures. There's a 15 year old in Australia who was put on puberty blockers at 12 who is currently looking to take legal action for the consequences of that decision being endorsed and facilitated by adults. The teenager is on crutches because of the impact of the puberty blockers on their bones.
You have to wonder at whether this kind of thing will impact on the apparent willingness to affirm dysphoria in the case of gender in a way it doesn't happen with other mental health situations like body dysphoria and eating disorders. Nobody ever tells the underweight anorexic that the body they perceive is okay, for example.

This issue is so wide ranging and complex it needs a considered and careful approach that takes into account the age, understanding, underlying health etc of individuals. It really also needs greater clarity over what trans means because there is a difference between someone who has a paraphilia and gets aroused by dressing up as the opposite sex in gender stereotypical manner and some of the young girls on the spectrum where the biggest increase in the requests for surgery has happened in the last decade and then everything in between. And public attitudes to it does appear to be linked to what they perceive trans to mean.

[superfurryhibby]

Even with surgery, which stats say is the minority of those in the trans umbrella you remain biologically the sex you were assessed as being from conception. It's one of the issues where recording of biological sex is important as the vulnerability to certain health conditions depends on your sex. Every cell in the body contains genetic material directly as a consequence of your sex.

Puberty blockers and other medicalisation can affect the long term health outcomes for people - vulnerability to conditions like osteoporosis are linked to sex hormones and the normal hormonal cycles in sexed bodies. You build up your bone density especially during puberty. It's one of the reasons the male trans identifying athletes who go through male puberty retain physical advantage. However, if you delay or block puberty that process is undermined and there's increased risk of bone fractures. There's a 15 year old in Australia who was put on puberty blockers at 12 who is currently looking to take legal action for the consequences of that decision being endorsed and facilitated by adults. The teenager is on crutches because of the impact of the puberty blockers on their bones.
You have to wonder at whether this kind of thing will impact on the apparent willingness to affirm dysphoria in the case of gender in a way it doesn't happen with other mental health situations like body dysphoria and eating disorders. Nobody ever tells the underweight anorexic that the body they perceive is okay, for example.

This issue is so wide ranging and complex it needs a considered and careful approach that takes into account the age, understanding, underlying health etc of individuals. It really also needs greater clarity over what trans means because there is a difference between someone who has a paraphilia and gets aroused by dressing up as the opposite sex in gender stereotypical manner and some of the young girls on the spectrum where the biggest increase in the requests for surgery has happened in the last decade and then everything in between. And public attitudes to it does appear to be linked to what they perceive trans to mean.

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

[Stairway 2 7]

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

Disgusting of course women should be allowed to be seen by only biological females if they want, at their most vulnerable point. Trans rights have thankfully came such a long way. But surely trans can accept some women's choices.

[147lothian]

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

My view is that the CEO of a rape crisis centre should be a woman, not a transwoman, i'e not a man who identifies as a woman. I don't think that a man who identifies as a woman should be telling woman to reframe their trauma. Whatever spin is put on it when he says things like "even bigots get raped" And that Woman who don't want Mridul Wadha in the room or to be anywhere near him will need to be re-educated, it becomes clear what he is doing is, he is using traumatized women as a way of pushing trans activism IMO

[LewysGot2]

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

Females (and males) should be allowed to seek support or medical treatment from someone of the sex they feel most comfortable being seen by. Why would anyone seek to further traumatise or cause discomfort or upset to another human being? The priority has to be the feelings of the victim or patient, nobody else's. You'd think those working in rape crisis, medical support or the law enforcement agencies would put this 100% first and foremost.

[superfurryhibby]

My view is that the CEO of a rape crisis centre should be a woman, not a transwoman, i'e not a man who identifies as a woman. I don't think that a man who identifies as a woman should be telling woman to reframe their trauma. Whatever spin is put on it when he says things like "even bigots get raped" And that Woman who don't want Mridul Wadha in the room or anywhere near him will need to be re-educated, it becomes clear what he is doing is, he is using traumatized women as a way of pushing trans activism IMO

I totally agree. How on earth this guy got appointed I'll never understand.


Females (and males) should be allowed to seek support or medical treatment from someone of the sex they feel most comfortable being seen by. Why would anyone seek to further traumatise or cause discomfort or upset to another human being? The priority has to be the feelings of the victim or patient, nobody else's. You'd think those working in rape crisis, medical support or the law enforcement agencies would put this 100% first and foremost.

I suspect many of the staff who work at ERCC share the same view.

It's heartening to see so many well thought out replies on all the different angles on Trans Rights discussion on here.

[He's here!]

[/B]

Good post.

The path this takes us down is alarming to me. Thought police, hate crime, wokeism, control. The enemies of freedom of speech.

If this isn't an issue one doesn't spend much time assessing it would probably be quite easy to assume the extreme views of Slater, Harvie et al are shared by the trans community. That's far from the case:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-scottish-greens-are-in-cloud-cuckoo-land-on-trans-rights

[lapsedhibee]

If this isn't an issue one doesn't spend much time assessing it would probably be quite easy to assume the extreme views of Slater, Harvie et al are shared by the trans community. That's far from the case:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-scottish-greens-are-in-cloud-cuckoo-land-on-trans-rights

You've linked one person's views. How does that demonstrate that the views of Harvie and Slater are not shared by the trans community? :confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

You've linked one person's views. How does that demonstrate that the views of Harvie and Slater are not shared by the trans community? :confused:

To say your a bigot if a lesbian woman doesn't want to go with a trans women is just f'ing mental. The language used by the greens in attacking the snp was ridiculous and I'm glad Joanna Cherry hit back.

I know one trans person and he's so easy going. He says obviously some people forget and call me her, even her mum. But as long as they are nice she doesn't care. The only thing he's bothered about is the waiting time for the operations. Nhs is years so he's paying thousands to do privately

[Moulin Yarns]

To say your a bigot if a lesbian woman doesn't want to go with a trans women is just f'ing mental. The language used by the greens in attacking the snp was ridiculous and I'm glad Joanna Cherry hit back.

I know one trans person and he's so easy going. He says obviously some people forget and call me her, even her mum. But as long as they are nice she doesn't care. The only thing he's bothered about is the waiting time for the operations. Nhs is years so he's paying thousands to do privately

The video I put a link to of Jude talking about the time and cost involved confirmed your last point. 5 years from referral to first assessment for example, and 10k for top surgery alone.

[Stairway 2 7]

The video I put a link to of Jude talking about the time and cost involved confirmed your last point. 5 years from referral to first assessment for example, and 10k for top surgery alone.

He's paying for his top surgery himself soon, had to get a loan. Terrible. You think how much resources nhs uses for people drinking and smoking, or battering and stabbing each other. More funding should be available for people transitioning without getting in huge debt

[Moulin Yarns]

He's paying for his top surgery himself soon, had to get a loan. Terrible. You think how much resources nhs uses for people drinking and smoking, or battering and stabbing each other. More funding should be available for people transitioning without getting in huge debt

Jude has done a crowd funding for his surgery, but he has a lot of followers on YouTube and in the crafter community. He is also unsure if he will have lower surgery.

[He's here!]

You've linked one person's views. How does that demonstrate that the views of Harvie and Slater are not shared by the trans community? :confused:

Yeh, fair enough, I should probably have said that their views aren't shared by everyone in the trans community, much as they give the impression they are some sort of elected spokespeople for everyone who is trans in Scotland. As a transgender secondary school science teacher and journalist, though, Debbie Hayton brings a more balanced perspective than the likes of Slater, while a Google search will yield plenty of examples of transgender people who don't agree with gender self-identification. There are also plenty who wholeheartedly disagree with the demonisation of J K Rowling for stating some fundamental truths around biology.

[lapsedhibee]

Yeh, fair enough, I should probably have said that their views aren't shared by everyone in the trans community, much as they give the impression they are some sort of elected spokespeople for everyone who is trans in Scotland. As a transgender secondary school science teacher and journalist, though, Debbie Hayton brings a more balanced perspective than the likes of Slater, while a Google search will yield plenty of examples of transgender people who don't agree with gender self-identification. There are also plenty who wholeheartedly disagree with the demonisation of J K Rowling for stating some fundamental truths around biology.

Hard to see how a broad consensus, or anything like it, on most of these issues is going to emerge anytime soon.

[He's here!]

Hard to see how a broad consensus, or anything like it, on most of these issues is going to emerge anytime soon.

Agreed, though this isn't like party politics where consensus is understandably hard to reach. It's a minority of obsessives trying to impose their OTT views on a society which, by and large, would otherwise be largely untroubled by this issue.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's a shame there are in some circles a sectarian clash between feminists and trans people. They should be on the same side, division allows the bigots to drive a wedge between them. Of course debate is a good thing, but, as ever, it's the manner of debate that is key. When it becomes hateful and spiteful nobody wins but those who oppose both groups.

[superfurryhibby]

Yeh, fair enough, I should probably have said that their views aren't shared by everyone in the trans community, much as they give the impression they are some sort of elected spokespeople for everyone who is trans in Scotland. As a transgender secondary school science teacher and journalist, though, Debbie Hayton brings a more balanced perspective than the likes of Slater, while a Google search will yield plenty of examples of transgender people who don't agree with gender self-identification. There are also plenty who wholeheartedly disagree with the demonisation of J K Rowling for stating some fundamental truths around biology.

Good post.

The politicisation of this issue is alarming, as are the attempts to close down opposition to the legislative approach through accusations of transphobia etc.

[Moulin Yarns]

Female athletes feel let down by their sports bodies and want to compete with trans athletes.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886


Interesting that she feels her medals are diminished because women's sports are considered lesser.

[Stairway 2 7]

Female athletes feel let down by their sports bodies and want to compete with trans athletes.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886


Interesting that she feels her medals are diminished because women's sports are considered lesser.

She says they have been treated unfair but they do have a physical advantage in strength and stamina. She's saying biology does matter, because it does. Women aren't slower than men because they try less hard, its biology. It's not just about testosterone, it's muscle mass, bone density, stamina ect. Just make the mens competitions an open category

[Santa Cruz]

She says they have been treated unfair but they do have a physical advantage in strength and stamina. She's saying biology does matter, because it does. Women aren't slower than men because they try less hard, its biology. It's not just about testosterone, it's muscle mass, bone density, stamina ect. Just make the mens competitions an open category


You're correct. I used to compete with Edinburgh Athletic. Up until I was about 14/15 years old I could beat all the boys in my year group at sprints and middle distance (obviously never competed against them at club level as separate competitions for boys/girls). As soon as we passed that age, a few boys who had developed more physically began beating me.

More generally, I personally don't know any transgender people that I am aware off, so have found this thread really interesting. It's given me a greater understanding of the concerns raised on both sides.

[Moulin Yarns]

She says they have been treated unfair but they do have a physical advantage in strength and stamina. She's saying biology does matter, because it does. Women aren't slower than men because they try less hard, its biology. It's not just about testosterone, it's muscle mass, bone density, stamina ect. Just make the mens competitions an open category

Does she say that she doesn't want to compete with trans athletes or not?

Does she say that it's unfair to female athletes?

Does she say that it's unfair on trans athletes?


I think she is more an authority on the subject than you or I.

[LewysGot2]

Does she say that she doesn't want to compete with trans athletes or not?

Does she say that it's unfair to female athletes?

Does she say that it's unfair on trans athletes?


I think she is more an authority on the subject than you or I.

She's being pretty clear? Biological advantages affect fairness. She wants fairness. She doesn't want any witch hubts but she's very clear fairness is paramount.

She's saying the leadership of sport has allowed a pretty rotten set of circumstances to put a number of people in the crosshairs...

It's an excellent and very clear statement.

[Stairway 2 7]

Does she say that she doesn't want to compete with trans athletes or not?

Does she say that it's unfair to female athletes?

Does she say that it's unfair on trans athletes?


I think she is more an authority on the subject than you or I.

She says she wants to play if it's fair and there is a clear biological advantage to people who went through puberty as a male.

[Sergio sledge]

Female athletes feel let down by their sports bodies and want to compete with trans athletes.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886


Interesting that she feels her medals are diminished because women's sports are considered lesser.

She says that her medals are diminished because the governing bodies are telling her that trans females have no physical advantage which makes the implication that female athletes have to compete in a separate category because they don't try hard enough.

"I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented."

She wants to compete with trans athletes with one caveat,

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I don't see how the two things she says are compatible with the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female category in sports.

[Moulin Yarns]

She says that her medals are diminished because the governing bodies are telling her that trans females have no physical advantage which makes the implication that female athletes have to compete in a separate category because they don't try hard enough.

"I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented."

She wants to compete with trans athletes with one caveat,

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I don't see how the two things she says are compatible with the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female category in sports.

It's possible that the various sports governing bodies are already looking into the introduction of a calculator for fairness for events, I don't know, but there are already tools to compare performances across ages and sex. The only thing missing is 2 categories for trans men and women.


http://www.mastersathletics.net/index.php?id=2595


Something like this could be adapted to include the trans community.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's possible that the various sports governing bodies are already looking into the introduction of a calculator for fairness for events, I don't know, but there are already tools to compare performances across ages and sex. The only thing missing is 2 categories for trans men and women.


http://www.mastersathletics.net/index.php?id=2595


Something like this could be adapted to include the trans community.
If there was an 100 metre sprint I doubt the trans athletes would be happy starting 10 metres back or whatever. Surely you just make the male categories an open category.

[LewysGot2]

If there was an 100 metre sprint I doubt the trans athletes would be happy starting 10 metres back or whatever. Surely you just make the male categories an open category.

Yes. Whereas the women's category is currently the open one - trans men and trans women both opting for it. That says a lot in itself.

Nobody is stopping trans athletes from taking part in sport but inclusion of male bodied athletes in female sport will impact on female participation. Inclusion or fairness (and for who because there's a definite conflict here)...that's the question.

[LewysGot2]

She says that her medals are diminished because the governing bodies are telling her that trans females have no physical advantage which makes the implication that female athletes have to compete in a separate category because they don't try hard enough.

"I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented."

She wants to compete with trans athletes with one caveat,

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I don't see how the two things she says are compatible with the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female category in sports.

She could be meaning trans men in female sport as opposed to trans women? They are far more legitimate competition for her as they are biologically female.

[Moulin Yarns]

If there was an 100 metre sprint I doubt the trans athletes would be happy starting 10 metres back or whatever. Surely you just make the male categories an open category.

Nobody mentioned starting 10m or whatever back. This isn't the powderhall new year sprint 😂😂😂

I do Parkrun and my age grade percentage is just above 50% older women with the same time get a higher age grade than me, also a woman who is the same age as me and the same time gets a higher percentage. This is a universally used format and could easily be adapted for any event.


It really frustrates me that people only want to see the problems and not think about the possible solutions.

[LewysGot2]

Nobody mentioned starting 10m or whatever back. This isn't the powderhall new year sprint 😂😂😂

I do Parkrun and my age grade percentage is just above 50% older women with the same time get a higher age grade than me, also a woman who is the same age as me and the same time gets a higher percentage. This is a universally used format and could easily be adapted for any event.


It really frustrates me that people only want to see the problems and not think about the possible solutions.


Sorry for my ignorance on park running but is it competitive? I thought it was just fun running.

Also, not sure how age is factored in? Can you expand? Thanks.

There is obvious concern about middle aged male bodied athletes being still advantaged enough to compete at elite level female sport. How does age get factored into park running? Thanks in anticipation 👍

[Stairway 2 7]

Nobody mentioned starting 10m or whatever back. This isn't the powderhall new year sprint 😂😂😂

I do Parkrun and my age grade percentage is just above 50% older women with the same time get a higher age grade than me, also a woman who is the same age as me and the same time gets a higher percentage. This is a universally used format and could easily be adapted for any event.


It really frustrates me that people only want to see the problems and not think about the possible solutions.

Your being hard work for the sake of it. It's still the same, women loses time or trans women has time added. Trans women won't want that. It also only works for races or distance. What about football, rugby, mma, boxing, tennis ect ect. Even in say 400 meters, all the excitement is gone as you have to wait until post race calculations.

It really frustrates me when people ignore the obvious problems and biological differences. Can I ask you, would you be happy for a trans women to fight a woman in mma

[LewysGot2]

Your being hard work for the sake of it. It's still the same, women loses time or trans women has time added. Trans women won't want that. It also only works for races or distance. What about football, rugby, mma, boxing, tennis ect ect. Even in say 400 meters, all the excitement is gone as you have to wait until post race calculations.

It really frustrates me when people ignore the obvious problems and biological differences. Can I ask you, would you be happy for a trans women to fight a woman in mma

There are definitely sports where full inclusion is possible- horse 🐎 based events like racing, show jumping 3 day eventing etc. Also things like driving based sports, pool, snooker and darts. All of these places it already happens. But one size definitely doesn't fit all across sports.

[147lothian]

Does this also apply to transsexual women?

Yes, biological sex is immutable

[Moulin Yarns]

Your being hard work for the sake of it. It's still the same, women loses time or trans women has time added. Trans women won't want that. It also only works for races or distance. What about football, rugby, mma, boxing, tennis ect ect. Even in say 400 meters, all the excitement is gone as you have to wait until post race calculations.

It really frustrates me when people ignore the obvious problems and biological differences. Can I ask you, would you be happy for a trans women to fight a woman in mma

It is not time that is added in the age range system!

https://www.parkrun.org.uk/faskallyforest/results/agecategoryrecords/

These are the fastest times for each age range at my local Parkrun. As anyone can run there needs to be a way of comparing times taken over the 5km course. The fastest time is 17mins 28 seconds by a male between 30 and 34 which equates to an age grade of 74.05%, but a woman between 35 and 39 who ran a time of 18mins 20 seconds gets an age grade of 81.55% which would put her in a final position ahead of the man.

sorting the results by age grade has a woman of 60 to 64 at the top on an age grade of 82.44%. You don't need to apply any handicap system to get the adjusted positions because world athletics has already set this up.

Obviously it only works in individual sports, but the other sports mentioned, cycling and swimming, for example could use a similar system.

For those that want to know more.


https://support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us/articles/200565263-What-is-age-grading-


I've no idea what mma is, I can't stand the use of acronyms online as if everyone knows what you are talking about!



EDIT: Swimming has something similar.

https://www.swimming.org/masters/masters-swimming-age-adjustment/



(https://www.swimming.org/masters/masters-swimming-age-adjustment/)

[Stairway 2 7]

It is not time that is added in the age range system!

https://www.parkrun.org.uk/faskallyforest/results/agecategoryrecords/

These are the fastest times for each age range at my local Parkrun. As anyone can run there needs to be a way of comparing times taken over the 5km course. The fastest time is 17mins 28 seconds by a male between 30 and 34 which equates to an age grade of 74.05%, but a woman between 35 and 39 who ran a time of 18mins 20 seconds gets an age grade of 81.55% which would put her in a final position ahead of the man.

sorting the results by age grade has a woman of 60 to 64 at the top on an age grade of 82.44%. You don't need to apply any handicap system to get the adjusted positions because world athletics has already set this up.

Obviously it only works in individual sports, but the other sports mentioned, cycling and swimming, for example could use a similar system.

For those that want to know more.


https://support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us/articles/200565263-What-is-age-grading-


I've no idea what mma is, I can't stand the use of acronyms online as if everyone knows what you are talking about!



EDIT: Swimming has something similar.

https://www.swimming.org/masters/masters-swimming-age-adjustment/



(https://www.swimming.org/masters/masters-swimming-age-adjustment/)

It's literally as I said, time adjusted. We're only talking about elite level here as no one cares about the over 40s friendly competitions.

So if watching the female 100m final the one that crosses the line first might not win as higher %, that's a nonsense. Also is a 25 year old trans female compared with male or female times. It simply doesn't work. Trans women want to compete against females with no caveats, many people think this is unfair.

Mma is one of the biggest sports in the world now by viewing figures. How about boxing , do you think it's OK for a trans women to fight a biological woman

[Moulin Yarns]

It's literally as I said, time adjusted. We're only talking about elite level here as no one cares about the over 40s friendly competitions.

So if watching the female 100m final the one that crosses the line first might not win as higher %, that's a nonsense. Also is a 25 year old trans female compared with male or female times. It simply doesn't work. Trans women want to compete against females with no caveats, many people think this is unfair.

Mma is one of the biggest sports in the world now by viewing figures. How about boxing , do you think it's OK for a trans women to fight a biological woman

As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one looking for a solution to the problem of fairness, and having given an example all you can do is dismiss it.

As I see it, the biological female will be able to win against a trans (biological male) athlete by using a similar system to the age grading if they compete together. Nobody would have to wait for the result as the technology exists to make it possible for real-time results to be available. I suppose there is an element of handicap insomuch as the trans athletes know they have to be a certain amount faster than the female athletes.

I'm pretty sure that I asked how many elite trans sports people there were and don't think I ever got an answer. Very few I imagine.

If you have a better idea then I'm happy to hear it. But all I can see is negativity.

Martial arts and boxing are things I have no interest in so I'll leave that to others, but as we have been discussing athletics, cycling and swimming up to now I'll leave it to others to think about the violent sports.

[Stairway 2 7]

As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one looking for a solution to the problem of fairness, and having given an example all you can do is dismiss it.

As I see it, the biological female will be able to win against a trans (biological male) athlete by using a similar system to the age grading if they compete together. Nobody would have to wait for the result as the technology exists to make it possible for real-time results to be available. I suppose there is an element of handicap insomuch as the trans athletes know they have to be a certain amount faster than the female athletes.

I'm pretty sure that I asked how many elite trans sports people there were and don't think I ever got an answer. Very few I imagine.

If you have a better idea then I'm happy to hear it. But all I can see is negativity.

Martial arts and boxing are things I have no interest in so I'll leave that to others, but as we have been discussing athletics, cycling and swimming up to now I'll leave it to others to think about the violent sports.

There is an easier way as many of us have said. Make the mens competitions open to all, the trans athletes if they are good will still succeed. Women have a hard time as it is getting recognition in sport, they don't need records taken away from them and places in teams.

You can easily talk about sports your not interested in. Do you think it's right for trans women to fight women. Its one of the biggest issues in trans sport right now, or deflect from a tough question

[Moulin Yarns]

There is an easier way as many of us have said. Make the mens competitions open to all, the trans athletes if they are good will still succeed. Women have a hard time as it is getting recognition in sport, they don't need records taken away from them and places in teams.

You can easily talk about sports your not interested in. Do you think it's right for trans women to fight women. Its one of the biggest issues in trans sport right now, or deflect from a tough question

How many trans boxers or martial arts fighters are there? First time I've heard that it's one of the biggest issues!

[Stairway 2 7]

How many trans boxers or martial arts fighters are there? First time I've heard that it's one of the biggest issues!

mma is one of the biggest sports brands in the world, its events watched by tens of millions each week.

Fallon fox was borne a male had a wife and kid joined the marines, at 30 he decided to transition to female.

She took up mma and whilst technically awful her strength was huge. She came out as trans after her second fight

In one fight She broke a women's orbital bone broke her nose and caused her to need staples, after it she said

Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch ..."

Fox herself said she was like Jackie Robinson and doing for trans that he did for blacks. She was banned in many states although florida allowed her fights. She says anyone that says she shouldn't fight is a transphobe.

She likes the fact that she was allowed to punch terms
Fallon Fox
@FallonFox
·
Apr 3
There’s been three times where I’ve punched a TERF in the face. I think I hold the record. 🏆 I’m the most based trans person on earth. 😂
#MMA #DontHate #TotallyLegal #TotallyWorthIt

Alana McLaughlin was also all over the news as she is trans and is fighting women
https://www.sportbible.com/other/mma-news-transgender-mma-fighter-wins-her-debut-after-choking-out-opponent-20210912.amp.html

[superfurryhibby]

Trans sports and participation is the least of my concerns in all of this discussion.

[superfurryhibby]

PHD student loses her case against Bristol University after she accused the University of not doing enough to protect her from threats of harm from Trans activist students.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/feminist-academic-loses-legal-case-against-university-over-terf-claims/ar-AAWtQIO?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=06148270c959402495e65d5404300e29

"
Generally, it is not for me in this case to pass judgment on the acceptability of the things said and done and whether the line beyond acceptable free speech was crossed, but I do observe that the threat or use of violence such as the threat of throwing eggs or a punch obviously crosses that line and amounts to abhorrent and deplorable conduct,” he said.

“The university accepts that Ms Rosario Sanchez was the victim of unacceptable behaviour, particularly in the form of AA’s threat of violence.

“However, it was apparent in evidence that Ms Rosario Sanchez perceived behaviour as unacceptable to her which may nonetheless be permissible in the form of free speech – albeit offensive and rude – such as the use of the acronym terf.”

But he said Ms Rosario Sanchez “was not carefully informed and guided” about the disciplinary process and the information was delivered “in somewhat piecemeal fashion”.

He added: “Ms Rosario Sanchez’s complaints could have been progressed in a much better fashion, and this has already been recognised by the university, but there is no evidence of any malice on the part of any member of staff of the university towards Ms Rosario Sanchez and there is no evidence to support any inference of a strategy to close Ms Rosario Sanchez down rather than AA.”

It's interesting to see that part of the Judge's narrative mentions her perception of what is unacceptable behaviour and conflict with the right of freedom of speech.

I can't help wondering what the response would be from the judiciary if it were opponents of changes to Gender Recognition Act facing proceedings?

[Moulin Yarns]

mma is one of the biggest sports brands in the world, its events watched by tens of millions each week.

Fallon fox was borne a male had a wife and kid joined the marines, at 30 he decided to transition to female.

She took up mma and whilst technically awful her strength was huge. She came out as trans after her second fight

In one fight She broke a women's orbital bone broke her nose and caused her to need staples, after it she said

Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch ..."

Fox herself said she was like Jackie Robinson and doing for trans that he did for blacks. She was banned in many states although florida allowed her fights. She says anyone that says she shouldn't fight is a transphobe.

She likes the fact that she was allowed to punch terms
Fallon Fox
@FallonFox
·
Apr 3
There’s been three times where I’ve punched a TERF in the face. I think I hold the record. 🏆 I’m the most based trans person on earth. 😂
#MMA #DontHate #TotallyLegal #TotallyWorthIt

Alana McLaughlin was also all over the news as she is trans and is fighting women
https://www.sportbible.com/other/mma-news-transgender-mma-fighter-wins-her-debut-after-choking-out-opponent-20210912.amp.html

As always there are two sides to every story


https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading

Then there is the swimmer Lia Thomas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-data-b2049615.html

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/6/22867761/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-trans-truth-myth


And of course you have the trans men, who are obviously incapable of competing with cis men.


https://www.outsports.com/2020/6/21/21294667/30-moments-of-pride-pat-manuel-becomes-first-transgender-boxing-pride-lgbt-history

[Moulin Yarns]

Trans sports and participation is the least of my concerns in all of this discussion.

Agreed. It's getting a disproportionate amount of time.

Of course, if trans women are required to participate in mens events then there is the other problem that is getting a disproportionate amount of time is the changing room issue.

[Since90+2]

Trans women should not be fighting woman in boxing / MMA or any combat sport. That is plainly obvious.

[Stairway 2 7]

As always there are two sides to every story


https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading

Then there is the swimmer Lia Thomas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-data-b2049615.html

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/6/22867761/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-trans-truth-myth


And of course you have the trans men, who are obviously incapable of competing with cis men.


https://www.outsports.com/2020/6/21/21294667/30-moments-of-pride-pat-manuel-becomes-first-transgender-boxing-pride-lgbt-history

Did you read that fallon fox article 😆 ridiculous. She didn't break her scull but did break orbital bone and she needed staples in her head. This is a female against an ex marine who was a man at 30. Men have larger bone density, thicker joints and are just stronger. The woman who thought her said no woman is as strong as her.

You still didn't say if trans women should fight women.

So your only reason trans women couldn't go in an open male category is the changing rooms for you?

[Moulin Yarns]

Did you read that fallon fox article �� ridiculous. She didn't break her scull but did break orbital bone and she needed staples in her head. This is a female against an ex marine who was a man at 30. Men have larger bone density, thicker joints and are just stronger. The woman who thought her said no woman is as strong as her.

You still didn't say if trans women should fight women.

So your only reason trans women couldn't go in an open male category is the changing rooms for you?

All about opinions. All trans have rights which you seem to want to deny them.

A fairly regular occurrance in the sport from what I've been able to find out, regardless of gender!

I've also said I don't follow any violent sport. Why would you??? So I have no opinion on fighting.

[LewysGot2]

Agreed. It's getting a disproportionate amount of time.

Of course, if trans women are required to participate in mens events then there is the other problem that is getting a disproportionate amount of time is the changing room issue.

How much is a proportionate amount of time? Its easy for anyone male to feel unaffected by the impact of it all and therefore possibly it's disproportionate.

Why should any biological female be placed in a position where she has to change in the same space as a fully intact biological male? Or share a medical ward with male strangers? Folk may not have daughters or partners or sisters but we all have mothers. If we're happy that our mother would be put in any of these positions I'd honestly question that. The right to dignity, sense of feeling safe, modesty (if that matters) or whatever is not ours to give away. It's not even the right of females who aren't bothered to give away either tobe honest.


If transwomen who are fully intact males, like Lia Thomas, had to change with other fully intact males it's surely not the same as them changing in a room of biological females?

[Stairway 2 7]

All about opinions. All trans have rights which you seem to want to deny them.

A fairly regular occurrance in the sport from what I've been able to find out, regardless of gender!

I've also said I don't follow any violent sport. Why would you??? So I have no opinion on fighting.

I want trans to have every legal right with a couple of caveats. That's light years from where we were 20 years ago. It's not fairly regular it happens when you have been smashed might happen once a career. The fact that's its done by a biological male to a female is abhorrent. If my daughter had it happen by someone who had puberty as a male I'd be furious.

The only other caveats would be rape crisis because surely its the woman's right who sees them. Also changing rooms. The majority of women asked don't want a trans female in their changing room, it would be disgusting for a man to say if that is right or not. Separate Unisex changing areas as a legal standard would stop that.

You don't have to follow boxing or mma to have an opinion, that's a cop out. I don't follow swimming but I feel people who have gone through puberty shouldn't compete against biological females. Females have the worse end of the stick throughout life, without more taken off them

[Hibernia&Alba]

How much is a proportionate amount of time? Its easy for anyone male to feel unaffected by the impact of it all and therefore possibly it's disproportionate.

Why should any biological female be placed in a position where she has to change in the same space as a fully intact biological male? Or share a medical ward with male strangers? Folk may not have daughters or partners or sisters but we all have mothers. If we're happy that our mother would be put in any of these positions I'd honestly question that. The right to dignity, sense of feeling safe, modesty (if that matters) or whatever is not ours to give away. It's not even the right of females who aren't bothered to give away either tobe honest.


If transwomen who are fully intact males, like Lia Thomas, had to change with other fully intact males it's surely not the same as them changing in a room of biological females?

Again, I think the issue is getting so much attention now because it's become the latest culture wars issue on the right. Distract people from Brexit, the cost of living crisis, wage stagnation, public services underfunding, corruption and cronyism in government by scapegoating a common enemy. It's a tactic as old as humanity, and at the moment the two groups being pummelled are transgenders and refugees.

[Stairway 2 7]

Again, I think the issue is getting so much attention now because it's become the latest culture wars issue on the right. Distract people from Brexit, the cost of living crisis, wage stagnation, public services underfunding, corruption and cronyism in government by scapegoating a common enemy. It's a tactic as old as humanity, and at the moment the two groups being pummelled are transgenders and refugees.

It's getting so much attention because it's the first time it's been an issue. Female records are getting broken by trans athletes and prizes given. It would be huge worldwide news at any time

[Moulin Yarns]

It's getting so much attention because it's the first time it's been an issue. Female records are getting broken by trans athletes and prizes given. It would be huge worldwide news at any time



Trans women are able to beat men as well 😁


Unfortunately a handful of trans athletes, sports people, have managed to win, initially, and the huge majority of transgender people are being ignored, and concentrating on 2 issues, sport and shared spaces, is not helping the majority.

[Stairway 2 7]

Trans women are able to beat men as well 😁


Unfortunately a handful of trans athletes, sports people, have managed to win, initially, and the huge majority of transgender people are being ignored, and concentrating on 2 issues, sport and shared spaces, is not helping the majority.

If the conceded sports and shared spaces then there would be almost no issue for most.

They should be able to beat men, they have the same natural biology

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's getting so much attention because it's the first time it's been an issue. Female records are getting broken by trans athletes and prizes given. It would be huge worldwide news at any time

Partly, but I would say there are some very disingenuous public/media figures who are using transgenderism for propaganda purposes, in the same way other minority groups are scapegoated.

[Moulin Yarns]

If the conceded sports and shared spaces then there would be almost no issue for most.

They should be able to beat men, they have the same natural biology

It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

[LewysGot2]

Partly, but I would say there are some very disingenuous public/media figures who are using transgenderism for propaganda purposes, in the same way other minority groups are scapegoated.

Just as there are ideologically driven activists pushing from behind the trans rights angle and not always helping those who just want to go about their lives quietly or who don't want access to single sex spaces.

Any trans woman who openly says they don't want to access female sport or spaces because they don't think it's fair are targeted by these idealogical activists as heretics. Debbie Hayton and other high profile trans women have been attacked for defending single sex spaces. Detransitioners have also been very openly attacked for expressing their concerns about automatic affirmation of dysphoria and undergoing medical intervention they subsequently regret . Keira Bell being a case in question.

It is genuinely fascinating that the recommendation for affirmation of gender dysphoria is the perceived wisdom from various organisations and psychologists where the affirmation of other body dysphorias would be either deemed unsafe or culturally inappropriate. Eating disorders due to body dysphoria are not affirmed. People claiming to feel they are the wrong race are not affirmed. What is different about those feeling they are the opposite sex? It's honestly not clear to me... You wouldn't tell an anorexic they are fat.

I certainly don't know how it feels to be the opposite sex. Yeah, we have commonality in terms of key processes of life being the same but I'll never have to choose between a career or having a family, or give birth, or menstruate every month or know the physics of a very different body mechanics. And, of course, they would be the same vice versa.

It's reported there's a 4000% increase in demand for top surgery in teens in the last couple of years - the biggest area of growth is teenage girls who are often on the spectrum. The risk there is social contagion at play here too is concerning.

It's a shame there's potential hijacking of this all by the ideologically driven left and right for different motives because at the heart of all this is genuine concern for human beings dysphoria and, as a consequence, their physical health.

[Stairway 2 7]

It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!
Pish and twisting as usual. No rights 😆 i said every right bar two. If you actually read I said there should be unisex changing as a standard, as disabled toilets are in buildings.

If not. Then it's up to the biological females to decide and most don't want trans women there. Who are you to say misogynisticly what females should be happy with.

[LewysGot2]

It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

You're absolutely right but the examples of fully transitioned people are not what the umbrella term trans means in reality. It now covers everything from those individuals to autogynephiles who get their kicks from dressing as women to individuals like Lia Thomas where there is no surgery but some hormone treatment.

From a perspective of safe guarding how do people protect the vulnerable - natal women (and those male born who could be vulnerable in specfic circumstances) currently mitigated foe with single sex spaces? Third spaces, perhaps? They're not universally acceptable either it seems?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/status/1517469701479227392?t=uUVtd4QEk5MbF9Z0ZcPtBA&s=19


😡

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/status/1517469701479227392?t=uUVtd4QEk5MbF9Z0ZcPtBA&s=19


😡

Where do lesbians fit in her analogy. They are abuses by sections if they say they wouldn't go with a trans female. TERF is banded about constantly

[LewysGot2]

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/status/1517469701479227392?t=uUVtd4QEk5MbF9Z0ZcPtBA&s=19


😡

The LGB community seem to have mixed feelings on the issues...and that's just going on the replies to that Twitter post.


https://www.newsweek.com/new-homophobia-opinion-1698969


https://mobile.twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1517627635869888514

[147lothian]

This sums up the logic of the identity politics / woke slogan transwomen are women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sgjc29QCGo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sgjc29QCGo)

[superfurryhibby]

Partly, but I would say there are some very disingenuous public/media figures who are using transgenderism for propaganda purposes, in the same way other minority groups are scapegoated.

There are also public figures jumping onto to sone kind of woke- anti freedom of speech bandwagon and using their support of gender self identification to scapegoat women who gave the audacity to speak out against it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Can a trans women who doesn't have surgery or hormones and also has a beard, be a lesbian

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h

[CropleyWasGod]

Can a trans women who doesn't have surgery or hormones and also has a beard, be a lesbian

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h
I'd say why not? It's really none of anyone else's business what label they put on themselves. They're in a committed relationship, and that's all that should matter.

That won't stop others talking about them, of course, but so what?

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd say why not? It's really none of anyone else's business what label they put on themselves. They're in a committed relationship, and that's all that should matter.

That won't stop others talking about them, of course, but so what?

I'd probably agree with who cares. But it's becoming the hot topic. Lesbian females who say they wouldn't go with trans women are being targeted as being bigoted, TERF is thrown out regularly. Lots of feminists are also opposing trans saying they are 100% female

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd probably agree with who cares. But it's becoming the hot topic. Lesbian females who say they wouldn't go with trans women are being targeted as being bigoted, TERF is thrown out regularly. Lots of feminists are also opposing trans saying they are 100% female

That's not new in LGB circles. Gay men not being keen on bisexual men, for example, is a common thing. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it's down to personal choice and taste, and again IMO it's a "so what?" for everyone not directly affected.

Reading Twitter about this today, as the start of Lesbian Visibility Week, it's another opportunity for the shouters at the extremes of the trans debate to scream the same things they have been screaming for years.

[Stairway 2 7]

The only problem I can see comes back to the same two things sports and female only areas. As much as I want this woman in the article to have every legal right as a female. They simply shouldn't be allowed in female sports. I also wouldn't be happy if she was in the gym changing room with my teen daughter. That might make me bigoted but I asked her and she says no way, she's very Liberal with most things too.

I think the only way is heavy investment in unisex areas.

[LewysGot2]

I'd say why not? It's really none of anyone else's business what label they put on themselves. They're in a committed relationship, and that's all that should matter.

That won't stop others talking about them, of course, but so what?

Are same sex attracted individuals entitled to own their own language and definitions? This individual is technically in a heterosexual relationship but identifies as a women. The reframing of what homosexuality means as part of gender based queer theory definitely appears offensive to a fair number of same sex attracted gay people.

[CropleyWasGod]

Are same sex attracted individuals entitled to own their own language and definitions? This individual is technically in a heterosexual relationship but identifies as a women. The reframing of what homosexuality means as part of gender based queer theory definitely appears offensive to a fair number of same sex attracted gay people.

They are entitled to be offended if they find it offensive. No argument there.

However, as many (of all sexualities) have been pointing out, there is no overarching authority to decide what constitutes "gay". Such is the fluid nature of the spectrum of sexuality that definition is virtually impossible.

For example, in HIV treatment circles, "men who have sex with men" is (or used to be) a term used to enable outreach to a particular marginalised sector of society. Many people might define them as "gay", but they don't identify themselves as such. Hence self-identity can be very important.

[LewysGot2]

They are entitled to be offended if they find it offensive. No argument there.

However, as many (of all sexualities) have been pointing out, there is no overarching authority to decide what constitutes "gay". Such is the fluid nature of the spectrum of sexuality that definition is virtually impossible.

For example, in HIV treatment circles, "men who have sex with men" is (or used to be) a term used to enable outreach to a particular marginalised sector of society. Many people might define them as "gay", but they don't identify themselves as such. Hence self-identity can be very important.

Interested why Alex Drummond doesn't see themself or celebrate being a gender non conforming biological male? It's something people were fighting for acceptance for 40 years ago - high profile GNC males included Bowie, Boy George etc Annie Lennox a high profile GNC female. Gender itself seems awfy steeped in stereotypes?

Interesting they talk about widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman. Why not widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a man?

[superfurryhibby]

Can a trans women who doesn't have surgery or hormones and also has a beard, be a lesbian

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h

I must try that line the next time I’m chatting to a female lesbian. I suspect they may laugh at me.

[James310]

It's getting ridiculous now.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/student-midwives-at-napier-university-taught-that-men-can-get-pregnant-bsxvj0dcp

"Midwifery students in Scotland were taught that biological males can become pregnant and issued with guidance on how to catheterise “birthing people” with penises"

Biological males getting pregnant?

[CropleyWasGod]

It's getting ridiculous now.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/student-midwives-at-napier-university-taught-that-men-can-get-pregnant-bsxvj0dcp

"Midwifery students in Scotland were taught that biological males can become pregnant and issued with guidance on how to catheterise “birthing people” with penises"

Biological males getting pregnant?

The article is quite clear. It was a mistake, which has been corrected.

Nothing more sinister than that.

[Bristolhibby]

It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

I know, it’s like they have picked the worst possible imagined hypothetical situation and presented it as the norm.

J

[Stairway 2 7]

I know, it’s like they have picked the worst possible imagined hypothetical situation and presented it as the norm.

J

How's that comparable with someone with a ***** changing next to females. The fact is the majority of women asked usually say they don't want it, so why should different people born males all tell them they are wrong

Make unisex changing areas compulsory and problem gone

[James310]

The article is quite clear. It was a mistake, which has been corrected.

Nothing more sinister than that.

Not according to the Telegraph.

"However, The Telegraph understands that the wording of the guide has not been changed and the university on Thursday stood by it."

Even still, it's not a "mistake" in the sense of a spelling error, someone wrote it and agreed with it and likely someone signed it off.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not according to the Telegraph.

"However, The Telegraph understands that the wording of the guide has not been changed and the university on Thursday stood by it."

Even still, it's not a "mistake" in the sense of a spelling error, someone wrote it and agreed with it and likely someone signed it off.

The teacher later amended the original note: “Apologies for the wording being the wrong way round. This situation refers to a female who has transitioned to male. So the person has surgery to construct a ***** but still has a uterus and may conceive.”

From the article you posted.

[James310]

The teacher later amended the original note: “Apologies for the wording being the wrong way round. This situation refers to a female who has transitioned to male. So the person has surgery to construct a ***** but still has a uterus and may conceive.”

From the article you posted.

Sounds like a feeble excuse when they also talked about the birthing person having a prostate gland, if what that person quoted said was true they would not refer to any prostate gland and I am pretty sure that's not part of the surgery....doesn't add up.

"Midwifery students were advised that “male persons should be warned of discomfort as the deflated balloon passes through the prostate gland”, a part of anatomy that is only found in biological males"

https://archive.ph/e4tCN

[Moulin Yarns]

How's that comparable with someone with a ***** changing next to females. The fact is the majority of women asked usually say they don't want it, so why should different people born males all tell them they are wrong

Make unisex changing areas compulsory and problem gone

66% of women are comfortable with transgender women using shared spaces. Don't know where you get the majority?!

[CropleyWasGod]

Sounds like a feeble excuse when they also talked about the birthing person having a prostate gland, if what that person quoted said was true they would not refer to any prostate gland and I am pretty sure that's not part of the surgery....doesn't add up.

"Midwifery students were advised that “male persons should be warned of discomfort as the deflated balloon passes through the prostate gland”, a part of anatomy that is only found in biological males"

https://archive.ph/e4tCN

Are you suggesting that students were deliberately given false information ?

It's a **** up. A bad one. But you seem to be saying that it's part of some sort of wider agenda. Are you?

[Moulin Yarns]

How's that comparable with someone with a ***** changing next to females. The fact is the majority of women asked usually say they don't want it, so why should different people born males all tell them they are wrong

Make unisex changing areas compulsory and problem gone

Surely unisex changing facilities have the same problem, exacerbated with all genders sharing the same space!!!

[Stairway 2 7]

66% of women are comfortable with transgender women using shared spaces. Don't know where you get the majority?!

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

The majority of women and men don't want trans women in female changing rooms. Surely no man would tell women what to think or what they should accept

[Stairway 2 7]

Surely unisex changing facilities have the same problem, exacerbated with all genders sharing the same space!!!

I don't think you've been in one if your saying that. Unisex ones have all the facilities in a separate cubicle each. Where as the gym my daughter goes to, the females is a square changing room with no cubicles and you walk from there to the showers. I don't really want my daughter to have to get changed and go for a shower next to male genitals. It's not a fear of rape its just female wishes

[LewysGot2]

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

The majority of women and men don't want trans women in female changing rooms. Surely no man would tell women what to think or what they should accept

Yes, attitudes change depending on what people perceived trans to mean. The inclusion of everything from full surgery and hormone treatment through to those with autogynophilia where presenting as a female in stereotypical fashion in a performative fashion (for arousal) under the trans umbrella means people aren't sure of what it can mean. If you ask females if they are happy with someone who has surgically transitioned they are more positive, if they are asked about those who are fully intact males the responses are quite different.

Its not about the worse case scenario either. Imagine gender neutral toilets at the football and how comfortable anyone would be with that.

[Moulin Yarns]

See, the problem here is that I think that a transgender woman is one who has gone through the whole trauma and financial costs of surgery. Some others are taking the guy with the beard (a transvestite IMHO) as the norm. In reality it is more likely to in between those extremes.

[Stairway 2 7]

See, the problem here is that I think that a transgender woman is one who has gone through the whole trauma and financial costs of surgery. Some others are taking the guy with the beard (a transvestite IMHO) as the norm. In reality it is more likely to in between those extremes.

Most would probably agree with you, but not the trans community. The majority don't have the surgery. It's hard. I think unisex changing rooms would are generally better for everyone anyway, problem is companies don't like spending money unless they have to

[LewysGot2]

See, the problem here is that I think that a transgender woman is one who has gone through the whole trauma and financial costs of surgery. Some others are taking the guy with the beard (a transvestite IMHO) as the norm. In reality it is more likely to in between those extremes.

Most don't get surgery, that's the issue here. Those people are in the minority.

The other thing here is if you say anyone can be in any currently single sex space you are saying anyone can do that without challenge.

Girls being pestered by males who are just bog standard creeps in a nightclub often see the female loos as a safe space to seek help from other females. If anyone can go in those loos, that safe space is gone. It's not just about trans issues it's about general safeguarding/dignity/comfort/privacy for the population as a whole.

A lot of men don't want gender neutral facilities either.

The cost of putting in place safe gender neutral facilities that meet the capacity needs where the efficiency of urinals are removed will be prohibitive or restrictive, too.

[superfurryhibby]

Are you suggesting that students were deliberately given false information ?

It's a **** up. A bad one. But you seem to be saying that it's part of some sort of wider agenda. Are you?

It’s wokeism gone mad and shows undercurrents of institutions tying themselves in knots to promote a bizarre agenda.

[superfurryhibby]

Most don't get surgery, that's the issue here. Those people are in the minority.

The other thing here is if you say anyone can be in any currently single sex space you are saying anyone can do that without challenge.

Girls being pestered by males who are just bog standard creeps in a nightclub often see the female loos as a safe space to seek help from other females. If anyone can go in those loos, that safe space is gone. It's not just about trans issues it's about general safeguarding/dignity/comfort/privacy for the population as a whole.

A lot of men don't want gender neutral facilities either.

The cost of putting in place safe gender neutral facilities that meet the capacity needs where the efficiency of urinals are removed will be prohibitive or restrictive, too.

Gender neutral, single occupancy spaces, like the individual toilet cubicles fine.

For the likes of changing rooms etc, utterly insane. Who in the real world could seriously be advocating this?

[Stairway 2 7]

Gender neutral, single occupancy spaces, like the individual toilet cubicles fine.

For the likes of changing rooms etc, utterly insane. Who in the real world could seriously be advocating this?

The gender neutral changing rooms are individual changing spaces, not open rooms obviously. Half of swimming pools already have this. You all go in as a family pick your cubicle and the only place you would really mix is at the mirrors

[Moulin Yarns]

https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/


90% of sex attacks in council leisure centres happen in unisex changing areas.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/


90% of sex attacks in council leisure centres happen in unisex changing areas.

120 in 2 years, 46 in public mixed areas like pools and corridors. Seems a small number of weirdos. But if the trans community don't want this, then they should have nothing.

They say its protecting women at a stage of undress, well imagine a female in a state of undress next to someone with male genitals undressed.

[superfurryhibby]

The gender neutral changing rooms are individual changing spaces, not open rooms obviously. Half of swimming pools already have this. You all go in as a family pick your cubicle and the only place you would really mix is at the mirrors

In a world where some are substituting the word mother for people with wombs anything is possible.

You say obviously, but you actually wrote " I think unisex changing rooms would are generally better for everyone anyway". Places like Warrender baths have always had the cubicles around the pool, they've always been gender neutral, that's different.

I don't have a problem with male/female only changing rooms, nor do I agree that unisex changing rooms are generally better. Why bother? Just leave them as they are. Who does installing cubicles actually benefit?

The scope for deviant men ogling others would increase enormously. It may also alienate people from other cultures and prevent them using facilities.

[Stairway 2 7]

In a world where some are substituting the word mother for people with wombs anything is possible.

You say obviously, but you actually wrote " I think unisex changing rooms would are generally better for everyone anyway". Places like Warrender baths have always had the cubicles around the pool, they've always been gender neutral, that's different.

I don't have a problem with male/female only changing rooms, nor do I agree that unisex changing rooms are generally better. Why bother? Just leave them as they are. Who does installing cubicles actually benefit?

The scope for deviant men ogling others would increase enormously. It may also alienate people from other cultures and prevent them using facilities.

If there is floor to ceiling cubicles there is no way of ogling. I've used unisex changing areas in swimming pools and water parks all around the world, I've seen most cultures using them happily. It's handy when you can help the wife if you have a baby and small kids, just pass them out

[superfurryhibby]

If there is floor to ceiling cubicles there is no way of ogling. I've used unisex changing areas in swimming pools and water parks all around the world, I've seen most cultures using them happily. It's handy when you can help the wife if you have a baby and small kids, just pass them out

I'm less cosmopolitan than you and only know them from the old council pools in Edinburgh.

Fair enough, in the design of new facilities, maybe they will be easier to incorporate, but for me it's not a pressing issue.

Back to the people with wombs stuff..........

Interesting to see that ERI no longer have a maternity ward, it's a Birth Centre. Although they still refer to "Midwives". and "Maternity services". The word women is quite noticeably absent in most of the pages. On the introductory page they do mention women " Being pregnant is a special time in your life and NHS Lothian Maternity Services strive to ensure that all women and babies are provided with the highest quality care throughout your pregnancy journey".

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm less cosmopolitan than you and only know them from the old council pools in Edinburgh.

Fair enough, in the design of new facilities, maybe they will be easier to incorporate, but for me it's not a pressing issue.

Back to the people with wombs stuff..........

Interesting to see that ERI no longer have a maternity ward, it's a Birth Centre. Although they still refer to "Midwives". and "Maternity services". The word women is quite noticeably absent in most of the pages. On the introductory page they do mention women " Being pregnant is a special time in your life and NHS Lothian Maternity Services strive to ensure that all women and babies are provided with the highest quality care throughout your pregnancy journey".

I'd probably agree with you that it could be a standard in new builds. Maybe just have male female and maybe one unisex cubicle, like we do with disabled toilets and baby change. Because the problem is so small that the huge cost of changing everywhere would be a waste.

Your second point, yes it's ridiculous. All our information when we had the bairn was about the birthing parent, as you say no mention about mum's. My wife went to some mum and baby yoga regularly. They had to change the name to parent and baby yoga. But when dad's started applying, they went with the snappy name of birthing parent and baby yoga

[147lothian]

Biological sex is real, if there is no such thing as biological sex, there is no such thing as trans, it's good to see that trans people are now speaking out against the Woke nonsense that claims to speak on their behalf as some kind of clown show in the oppression olympics

http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ (http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ)

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61167271

13 year olds wanting unisex toilets at school.

Talk about over indulged entitlement gone haywire.

I just can’t buy into all of this. It’s attention seeking to the max.

The tyranny of the not very silent tiny minority.

[LewysGot2]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61167271

13 year olds wanting unisex toilets at school.

Talk about over indulged entitlement gone haywire.

I just can’t buy into all of this. It’s attention seeking to the max.

The tyranny of the not very silent tiny minority.

That's a really sad article. Children are often unhappy with the changes in their bodies when they hit puberty - that's pretty normal - but this is quite something else.

Scotland is showing a faster rate of increase of teenagers looking for treatment for gender identity issues.

England has 7,100 teens seeking treatment at gender clinics. Given the relative size of populations Scotland, if comparable, should be about 10% of that ie. around 700. We're not, we've got 1253 which is around 18%. Scotland has almost twice as many gender-distressed children per head of population as the other home nations.

[500miles]

That's a really sad article. Children are often unhappy with the changes in their bodies when they hit puberty - that's pretty normal - but this is quite something else.

Scotland is showing a faster rate of increase of teenagers looking for treatment for gender identity issues.

England has 7,100 teens seeking treatment at gender clinics. Given the relative size of populations Scotland, if comparable, should be about 10% of that ie. around 700. We're not, we've got 1253 which is around 18%. Scotland has almost twice as many gender-distressed children per head of population as the other home nations.


I know the phrase "social contagion" gets thrown around negatively, but I feel the same way about religion, so I hope people understand why I apply it.

[LewysGot2]

I know the phrase "social contagion" gets thrown around negatively, but I feel the same way about religion, so I hope people understand why I apply it.

I don't think anyone can ignore that there will be some normal teenage behaviours at play. The need to feel they have found "their tribe", the needs to rebel in some way against their parents. These are age old behaviours and, if the Internet is the key source of information and influence for these young people (as the 13 year old admitted) then there's real potential for things to be exploited/misunderstood. The number of teens seeking gender reassignment or feeling in the wrong body where ASD is also in the mix is something that can't be ignored either. We need to understand better why we've had massive increases suddenly in high functioning autistic pupils feeling they are "in the wrong body". Is it that computers are very often a big part of their lives? Or is it something else?

In Sweden the Karolinska University gender clinic is under scrutiny after an investigative documentary by the Swedish national broadcaster uncovered the extent of long term permanent physical health damage to teens put on hormones from primary school age. Transition for male bodied individuals needs 6 times the level of oestrogen used by women on HRT. That affects fertility, bone density, the major organs...massive long term implications health wise based on "the feelings of being in the wrong body" of children, seemingly in that clinic as young as 10.

They have shifted their policy on prescription of puberty blockers apparently and are no longer prescribing for U18s as a standard practice. Same has been happening in Finland.


How that pans out, what litigation might inevitably follows will be interesting because money makes the world go round.

[James310]

I don't think anyone can ignore that there will be some normal teenage behaviours at play. The need to feel they have found "their tribe", the needs to rebel in some way against their parents. These are age old behaviours and, if the Internet is the key source of information and influence for these young people (as the 13 year old admitted) then there's real potential for things to be exploited/misunderstood. The number of teens seeking gender reassignment or feeling in the wrong body where ASD is also in the mix is something that can't be ignored either. We need to understand better why we've had massive increases suddenly in high functioning autistic pupils feeling they are "in the wrong body". Is it that computers are very often a big part of their lives? Or is it something else?

In Sweden the Karolinska University gender clinic is being investigated at the moment because an investigative documentary by the Swedish national broadcaster uncovered the extent of long term permanent physical health damage to teens put on hormones from primary school age. Transition for male bodied individuals needs 6 times the level of oestrogen used by women on HRT. That affects fertility, bone density, the major organs...massive long term implications health wise based on "the feelings of being in the wrong body" of children, seemingly in that clinic as young as 4.

How that pans out, what litigation might inevitably follows will be interesting because money makes the world go round.

Scottish Government Minister Lorna Slater supports the prescribing of puberty blockers for children. Says it's allows the child time to decide what way they want to go.