The Trans Rights Debate

[AgentDaleCooper]

I'm in full agreement with what you and archie have been discussing this afternoon, in particular your point about compelled speech.

My primary concern around the blocked SG legislation is the removal of the current more stringent checks and balances with a policy that equates to 'everyone is who they say they are, unless they turn out not to be'.

i also don't agree with compelled speech, but i equally think it's much less of an issue than transphobia.

you honestly come across as making an actual point of saying 'he' whenever you can, when referring to a trans-woman. out of curiosity, what do you think of Jordan Peterson, and how he was contributed to things on this matter?

as nicola sturgeon has said recently, i hope that you'll be as exercised as this when it comes to other woman's rights issues.

[AgentDaleCooper]

SG has put on hold the movement of all transgender prisoners and has announced a review of the rules, according to Sky.

sounds sensible :aok:

[James310]

i also don't agree with compelled speech, but i equally think it's much less of an issue than transphobia.

you honestly come across as making an actual point of saying 'he' whenever you can, when referring to a trans-woman. out of curiosity, what do you think of Jordan Peterson, and how he was contributed to things on this matter?

as nicola sturgeon has said recently, i hope that you'll be as exercised as this when it comes to other woman's rights issues.

How would you ask the victims to address the accused in court? As "she"?

The crimes were committed when he was not trans but the trial was held when she was.

[AgentDaleCooper]

How would you ask the victims to address the accused in court? As "she"?

The crimes were committed when he was not trans but the trial was held when she was.

you can always just say 'they' IMO. it almost always works grammatically. i don't think anyone should be legally forced to say anything though, and if it's in court and someone is recounting some utterly horrific incident that happened to them, then they should be able to describe it however they feel.

[AgentDaleCooper]

F.A.O. archie:

So what is the intention? And why the implication that it's akin to racism to contest it? Why can't people choose how they are described rather than having it imposed?

the BLM example i gave was to do with people taking umbrage to something based on a misinterpretation. in this case, the misinterpretation is that 'cis' diminishes one's woman/manhood, when if you look at both the meaning and the way in which the term is used, it absolutely doesn't.

That's fine, but again you are trying to determine how people define themselves. It's not a neutral term.

right, here's the tricky bit...i don't think 'cis male' is as much a definition of identity as it is a differentiation. i can't identify as 'cis male', it's just who i am - it would be literally impossible for me to identify as a 'trans male', because i can never be one. the 'cis' part isn't about identity - it's about creating a distinction that allows trans people to be included into the gender with which they identify. the upshot of refusing this is actually what determines how people define themselves - because it excludes trans people from identifying with their desired gender. so objecting to the word 'cis' isn't actually about how one is defining ones self - it's about refusing to allow other people do define themselves as they wish.

the word 'cis' itself, as i have blabbed on about, is very neutral in terms of its denotation - it just means 'not trans'. i get that connotatively it has acquired other meanings to a lot of people, that it somehow qualifies or diminishes their own gender identity - but it really doesn't in any meaningful way.

I don't know the detail of the rape crisis centre you refer to. Most initially came out of the womens movement in the 70s. So that is some stretch. The case by case issue is much wider than the assessment. there needs to be a comprehensive set of criteria and a legally robust process underpinning it to make it work. I think you are seriously underestimating the task here.
I'm pretty sure it's the one in Edinburgh.
R.e. the case by case thing - I think the only thing that needs to be assessed is whether they are a risk to women. perhaps i'm being simplistic - but that is the outcome we're both aiming at, isn't it? are we just disagreeing on how best to reach that outcome?

I'm confused here. Semantics is about the meaning of language. Surely that is central to this? If you want solutions you must be clear on what you are wanting to solve.
without wanting to be utterly nebulous and unconstructive, these sorts of 'concepts' like gender really do break down to dust when you start applying thorough going philosophy of language style analysis. there's much smarter people than me who would disagree with that, i'm sure, but as far as i can see, any line that is drawn is bound to be somewhat arbitrary, unless it's a line that excludes people that should not be excluded. i think if someone has been living as a woman/man for 2 years/6 months, whatever, that's fine, so long as practical safeguards are put in place in areas housing people who could be at risk of predators looking to capitalise on ambiguity.

[archie]

F.A.O. archie:

So what is the intention? And why the implication that it's akin to racism to contest it? Why can't people choose how they are described rather than having it imposed?

the BLM example i gave was to do with people taking umbrage to something based on a misinterpretation. in this case, the misinterpretation is that 'cis' diminishes one's woman/manhood, when if you look at both the meaning and the way in which the term is used, it absolutely doesn't.

That's fine, but again you are trying to determine how people define themselves. It's not a neutral term.

right, here's the tricky bit...i don't think 'cis male' is as much a definition of identity as it is a differentiation. i can't identify as 'cis male', it's just who i am - it would be literally impossible for me to identify as a 'trans male', because i can never be one. the 'cis' part isn't about identity - it's about creating a distinction that allows trans people to be included into the gender with which they identify. the upshot of refusing this is actually what determines how people define themselves - because it excludes trans people from identifying with their desired gender. so objecting to the word 'cis' isn't actually about how one is defining ones self - it's about refusing to allow other people do define themselves as they wish.

the word 'cis' itself, as i have blabbed on about, is very neutral in terms of its denotation - it just means 'not trans'. i get that connotatively it has acquired other meanings to a lot of people, that it somehow qualifies or diminishes their own gender identity - but it really doesn't in any meaningful way.

I don't know the detail of the rape crisis centre you refer to. Most initially came out of the womens movement in the 70s. So that is some stretch. The case by case issue is much wider than the assessment. there needs to be a comprehensive set of criteria and a legally robust process underpinning it to make it work. I think you are seriously underestimating the task here.
I'm pretty sure it's the one in Edinburgh.
R.e. the case by case thing - I think the only thing that needs to be assessed is whether they are a risk to women. perhaps i'm being simplistic - but that is the outcome we're both aiming at, isn't it? are we just disagreeing on how best to reach that outcome?

I'm confused here. Semantics is about the meaning of language. Surely that is central to this? If you want solutions you must be clear on what you are wanting to solve.
without wanting to be utterly nebulous and unconstructive, these sorts of 'concepts' like gender really do break down to dust when you start applying thorough going philosophy of language style analysis. there's much smarter people than me who would disagree with that, i'm sure, but as far as i can see, any line that is drawn is bound to be somewhat arbitrary, unless it's a line that excludes people that should not be excluded. i think if someone has been living as a woman/man for 2 years/6 months, whatever, that's fine, so long as practical safeguards are put in place in areas housing people who could be at risk of predators looking to capitalise on ambiguity.

Thanks for the response. I'd read up a wee bit more on Edinburgh. It's controversial and certainly not set up by a trans person

[He's here!]

i also don't agree with compelled speech, but i equally think it's much less of an issue than transphobia.

you honestly come across as making an actual point of saying 'he' whenever you can, when referring to a trans-woman. out of curiosity, what do you think of Jordan Peterson, and how he was contributed to things on this matter?

as nicola sturgeon has said recently, i hope that you'll be as exercised as this when it comes to other woman's rights issues.

I'm not making a point. Just recalling that when I worked with a couple of trans women (turns out this was longer ago than I realised, 2009, so things were a bit less nuanced) I wasn't too clued up on this issue and they were both so obviously male that I thought of them as such. Had I been asked to refer to them as she I doubt I'd have had a problem.

Is Peterson the guy who refused to go along with gender pronouns? I'm with him on that by and large, particularly the daft made-up ones.

I mentioned that things are more nuanced now but looking at the latest quotes from the SG on the prisoner row I see they are still, absurdly, tiptoeing around whether 'Isla' is a man or a woman. As JKR puts it he's 'a big burly rapist'. Makes things a lot simpler.

[hibby rae]

I'm not making a point. Just recalling that when I worked with a couple of trans women (turns out this was longer ago than I realised, 2009, so things were a bit less nuanced) I wasn't too clued up on this issue and they were both so obviously male that I thought of them as such. Had I been asked to refer to them as she I doubt I'd have had a problem.

Is Peterson the guy who refused to go along with gender pronouns? I'm with him on that by and large, particularly the daft made-up ones.

I mentioned that things are more nuanced now but looking at the latest quotes from the SG on the prisoner row I see they are still, absurdly, tiptoeing around whether 'Isla' is a man or a woman. As JKR puts it he's 'a big burly rapist'. Makes things a lot simpler.

Surely all pronouns are made up 😂😂

[AgentDaleCooper]

I'm not making a point. Just recalling that when I worked with a couple of trans women (turns out this was longer ago than I realised, 2009, so things were a bit less nuanced) I wasn't too clued up on this issue and they were both so obviously male that I thought of them as such. Had I been asked to refer to them as she I doubt I'd have had a problem.

Is Peterson the guy who refused to go along with gender pronouns? I'm with him on that by and large, particularly the daft made-up ones.

I mentioned that things are more nuanced now but looking at the latest quotes from the SG on the prisoner row I see they are still, absurdly, tiptoeing around whether 'Isla' is a man or a woman. As JKR puts it he's 'a big burly rapist'. Makes things a lot simpler.

the danger with that last bit is that it's basically normalising mis-gendering people, so long as you've got a good reason to do it...people will take that and run a mile with it, given time.

as far as i see it, Isla is a trans-woman with a history of extreme sexual violence against women, and should not be held in a women's prison.

yeah, Peterson refused to go along with gender pronouns...I know of some people who, to my eyes, utterly rip the piss (e.g. someone who wants to be referred to as 'it'), but a) i don't think most people do so deliberately, and b) again, we're back to the problem that archie was talking about, of making judgements about other people's identities. Peterson recently went as far as mis-gendering someone, quite deliberately and provocatively, who had actually had surgery. he's a knob.

it wasn't just in relation to that post, you've been doing it throughout the entire thread.

[147lothian]

Amanda Benson, is a mum of four who says she was so terrified her nerves were frazzled, when she was a prisoner at Gateside women only prison Greenock, because she was in there with two men who identified as women, one was a convicted murderer, the other who was over six foot and was there for domestic violence.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/ex-prisoner-shaking-fear-sharing-29075541

[CropleyWasGod]

Amanda Benson, is a mum of four who says she was so terrified her nerves were frazzled, when she was a prisoner at Gateside women only prison Greenock, because she was in there with two men who identified as women, one was a convicted murderer, the other who was over six foot and was there for domestic violence.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/ex-prisoner-shaking-fear-sharing-29075541

Yet...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64431383

[He's here!]

Yet...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64431383

She felt compelled to undergo an invasive procedure because she feared being raped while sharing prison facilities with two violent male offenders...but Keith Brown reckons it's OK because she didn't actually come to harm.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yet...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64431383

Is the fear and wanting a safe space like in the shower not enough or do we dismiss them. I don't think sexual assaults would rise but I do believe females should have a right to female only spaces

[CropleyWasGod]

She felt compelled to undergo an invasive procedure because she feared being raped while sharing prison facilities with two violent male offenders...but Keith Brown reckons it's OK because she didn't actually come to harm.

Did he say that?

[James310]

Yet...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64431383

I doubt you meant that "yet" in the way it came across.

[CropleyWasGod]

I doubt you meant that "yet" in the way it came across.

I'm not sure how it came across.

The point of my post was to say that we have 1 story from a former inmate, and a conflicting version from Keith Brown.

That is all. No opinion, not siding one way or the other.

[Stairway 2 7]

Reminds me of the article on here earlier severely disabled lady who said as she had memory loss problems she wanted female only care. Someone on here dismissed her fears saying she's worried about hypotheticals and should take the care she is given.

Women's rights and wishes are legitimate. It's about balancing rights gained against loss to others. I don't believe there is many places or situations where there is issues. I don't understand why it has to be all or nothing

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not sure how it came across.

The point of my post was to say that we have 1 story from a former inmate, and a conflicting version from Keith Brown.

That is all. No opinion, not siding one way or the other.

By all accounts it would be the men who were more at risk from Amanda Benson!


https://www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/news/17280440.amanda-benson-told-must-unpaid-work----jailed/


Amanda Benson was out on bail regarding a separate allegation of serious assault when she pursued and attacked a man in the street before sinking her teeth into a male PC's hand at 2am.

[Santa Cruz]

Not to diminish any safety concerns in prison specifically re: sexual assaults committed by anyone idenifying as a transwoman, but for context woman prisoners have had safety concerns going back over a decade. This report on Cornton Vale's prisoner assualt rates and suicide figures is a shocking indication of the fear many non violent prisoners live with daily. Hopefully there are more recent and much improved stats since this was published.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime/cornton-vale-scotlands-most-violent-prison-1658748

[James310]

I'm not sure how it came across.

The point of my post was to say that we have 1 story from a former inmate, and a conflicting version from Keith Brown.

That is all. No opinion, not siding one way or the other.

What's conflicting?

[CropleyWasGod]

What's conflicting?

She says that she shared spaces with trans men, one of whom was there for violence against women, the other for murder.

Keith Brown says that "no trans prisoners with a history of violence against women were being held in female prisons."

Unless it's a question of timing (she is relating the past, he the present), the 2 accounts conflict.

[Moulin Yarns]

She says that she shared spaces with trans men, one of whom was there for violence against women, the other for murder.

Keith Brown says that "no trans prisoners with a history of violence against women were being held in female prisons."

Unless it's a question of timing (she is relating the past, he the present), the 2 accounts conflict.

Gateside in greenock is not a women's prison. There are 5 accommodation units, one for women, another for people under supervision for release. Unless they all use a single shower block then I find it hard to see how the situation she described is possible.

[James310]

She says that she shared spaces with trans men, one of whom was there for violence against women, the other for murder.

Keith Brown says that "no trans prisoners with a history of violence against women were being held in female prisons."

Unless it's a question of timing (she is relating the past, he the present), the 2 accounts conflict.

I read it as Keith Brown saying that as of today, they have obviously been busy over the weekend moving prisoners. I don't think the lady is making it up.

[CropleyWasGod]

Gateside in greenock is not a women's prison. There are 5 accommodation units, one for women, another for people under supervision for release. Unless they all use a single shower block then I find it hard to see how the situation she described is possible.

The Record piece suggests that they did share spaces.

“We were told his name was Laura and that we would need to call him by that name, while the murderer was called Alex.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/PeterAdamSmith/status/1620051699900755970?t=u8d9eOLAyjiusoGlcA-gxw&s=19

The use of the words "has just" suggests it's just happened.

"Does Scotland’s First Minister believe all trans women are women?

Scottish Gov has just implemented an effective ban on trans prisoners who’ve committed sexual & violent crimes against women being moved to a women-only prison."

[Moulin Yarns]

Are violent women excluded from women only prisons? Do women not also need protection from violent women?


You can't exclude everyone who is a threat, but you can try your best to protect those most at risk.

[CropleyWasGod]

I read it as Keith Brown saying that as of today, they have obviously been busy over the weekend moving prisoners. I don't think the lady is making it up.

That's fair enough.

Both telling their own truth.

And with an outcome which should be acceptable to most.

[Ozyhibby]

Are violent women excluded from women only prisons? Do women not also need protection from violent women?


You can't exclude everyone who is a threat, but you can try your best to protect those most at risk.

Protecting prisoners from harm is of no interest to 99% of the UK population and this thread is no different. This is about who might commit some harm rather than stopping harm. There are no long threads on here worrying about the shocking levels of violence and self harm in our prisons. Nobody actually cares about these prisoners at all. This is about attacking trans people and NS.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Protecting prisoners from harm is of no interest to 99% of the UK population and this thread is no different. This is about who might commit some harm rather than stopping harm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep, and Amanda Benson is someone who is a threat to other people. That's why she was in greenock prison.

[Santa Cruz]

Protecting prisoners from harm is of no interest to 99% of the UK population and this thread is no different. This is about who might commit some harm rather than stopping harm. There are no long threads on here worrying about the shocking levels of violence and self harm in our prisons. Nobody actually cares about these prisoners at all. This is about attacking trans people and NS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the % you quote was true re: public interest, stories of violence and suicide in prison would not make headline news imo.

[Kato]

If the % you quote was true re: public interest, stories of violence and suicide in prison would not make headline news imo.Public interest there would be "violence". Keeping prisoners 'safe' doesn't sell papers, violence (doesn't matter where from) does.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Protecting prisoners from harm is of no interest to 99% of the UK population and this thread is no different. This is about who might commit some harm rather than stopping harm. There are no long threads on here worrying about the shocking levels of violence and self harm in our prisons. Nobody actually cares about these prisoners at all. This is about attacking trans people and NS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Utter nonsense frankly. If people didn't speak up this week a rapist with male biology would be in a female prison, just like sexual criminal katie dolatowski is.

There isn't long threads about prison violence because no one would defend it, its obviously deplorable.

The other poster comparing female murderers being in female prisons is also ridiculous. In the last 5 years 99% of rapists prosecuted are males. If you can't see the difference your ditsy or have an agenda

[Stairway 2 7]

Public interest there would be "violence". Keeping prisoners 'safe' doesn't sell papers, violence (doesn't matter where from) does.

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There was a huge story recently of the poor Las that committed suicide in Cornton Vale due to be imprisoned for something minor

[Ozyhibby]

Utter nonsense frankly. If people didn't speak up this week a rapist with male biology would be in a female prison, just like sexual criminal katie dolatowski is.

There isn't long threads about prison violence because no one would defend it, its obviously deplorable.

The other poster comparing female murderers being in female prisons is also ridiculous. In the last 5 years 99% of rapists prosecuted are males. If you can't see the difference your ditsy or have an agenda

The first paragraph you just made up.


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[147lothian]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;7260346]Yet...

Amanda Benson is in a female prison with 40 prisoners, two of who are biologically male, one is there for murder, the other who she describes as very scary, is over 6 foot and is there for domestic violence to say, "yet" Do you mean she has nothing to worry about in this situation, as you don't care about vulnerable women in prison or that as these are males who identify as female, so she has nothing to worry about? In either case this does come across as a tad misogynistic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h83OeA42xUo

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;7260346]Yet...

Amanda Benson is in a female prison with 40 prisoners, two of who are biologically male, one is there for murder, the other who she describes as very scary, is over 6 foot and is there for domestic violence to say, "yet" Do you mean she has nothing to worry about in this situation, as you don't care about vulnerable women in prison or that as these are males who identify as female, so she has nothing to worry about? In either case this does come across as a tad misogynistic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h83OeA42xUo

My post was meant to highlight the apparent conflict in the 2 stories, which now seems to have been resolved. No opinion was offered .

[He's here!]

Did he say that?

That's what I took you to be implying by countering the woman's claims with the Brown story.

[Moulin Yarns]

Amanda Benson is in a female prison with 40 prisoners, two of who are biologically male, one is there for murder, the other who she describes as very scary, is over 6 foot and is there for domestic violence to say, "yet" Do you mean she has nothing to worry about in this situation, as you don't care about vulnerable women in prison or that as these are males who identify as female, so she has nothing to worry about? In either case this does come across as a tad misogynistic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h83OeA42xUo

Gateside in greenock is not a women's prison. There are 5 accommodation units, one for women, another for people under supervision for release. Unless they all use a single shower block then I find it hard to see how the situation she described is possible.

[archie]

Protecting prisoners from harm is of no interest to 99% of the UK population and this thread is no different. This is about who might commit some harm rather than stopping harm. There are no long threads on here worrying about the shocking levels of violence and self harm in our prisons. Nobody actually cares about these prisoners at all. This is about attacking trans people and NS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh Ozy. This is text book deflection. How do you know that nobody cares? Just because there isn't a thread here? I can only speak for myself, but my issues relate to poorly formed policy and badly drafted legislation. The fact that vulnerable women are just seen as collateral damage appalls me.

[archie]

Yep, and Amanda Benson is someone who is a threat to other people. That's why she was in greenock prison.So she had it coming?

[147lothian]

[QUOTE=147lothian;7260575]

My post was meant to highlight the apparent conflict in the 2 stories, which now seems to have been resolved. No opinion was offered .

Ok thanks for clearing that up

[Moulin Yarns]

So she had it coming?

What did she have coming. Nobody did anything to her. Tell that to all the men she assaulted.

[archie]

What did she have coming. Nobody did anything to her. Tell that to all the men she assaulted.

So living in fear is ok?

[Stairway 2 7]

Criminals lose their rights to opinions fears and wishes it seems.

[147lothian]

So living in fear is ok?

This shows that Amanda Benson's fear is genuine from what she describes as a hulk of a man who was about 6'3 and there for domestic violence.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL_tDdSzJPE

[He's here!]

Protecting prisoners from harm is of no interest to 99% of the UK population and this thread is no different. This is about who might commit some harm rather than stopping harm. There are no long threads on here worrying about the shocking levels of violence and self harm in our prisons. Nobody actually cares about these prisoners at all. This is about attacking trans people and NS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The first sentence you just made up.

[Lester B]

The first sentence you just made up.

It was a wholly reasonable assertion. You should try making a reasonable assertion yourself sometime. I think describing anyone on this thread as inaccurate is a bit rich given the various inconsistencies of your apparent position. Don’t you think?

[marinello59]

Protecting prisoners from harm is of no interest to 99% of the UK population and this thread is no different. This is about who might commit some harm rather than stopping harm. There are no long threads on here worrying about the shocking levels of violence and self harm in our prisons. Nobody actually cares about these prisoners at all. This is about attacking trans people and NS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im not so sure about that 99% figurę, Most people I know are fairly compassionate and would expect all of us to be protected from harm. Just because you don’t care doesn’t mean virtually nobody else does either. (Unless you are placing yourself in the 1% of the population that you think care. :greengrin )

Your last statement just seems unfair. It would be just as easy to say that nobody actually cares about Trans people at all on here, it’s all about defending NS. Which would be ridiculous given that there have been people from both sides of this arguing their case respectfully. It’s really not all about cheap political point scoring.

[He's here!]

It was a wholly reasonable assertion. You should try making a reasonable assertion yourself sometime. I think describing anyone on this thread as inaccurate is a bit rich given the various inconsistencies of your apparent position. Don’t you think?

I'm simply repeating his own assertion that another poster had made something up a few posts back.

Considering the story has been national news for the last week it's clearly commanding public interest (the key criteria for a news story) so I'd suggest more than 1% of the population are taking note. To try and brush it off as just an anti-SNP story doesn't wash. There would be a similar furore no matter which governing party was embroiled in this.

[He's here!]

Transcript from Surgeon's toe-curling interview with ITV'S Peter Smith earlier:

PS: 'Are all trans women women?'

NS: ‘That is not the point that we are dealing with here…

PS: ‘That is the question I am asking.’

NS: ‘Trans women are women, but in the present context there is no automatic right for a trans woman…’

PS: ‘So there are contexts where a trans woman is not a woman?’

NS: ‘No, there [are] circumstances when a trans woman will be housed in the male prison estate…’

PS: ‘Is there any context in which a woman born as a woman will be housed in the male estate?’

NS: ‘Look, we’re talking here about trans women…’

PS: ‘And I’m now asking about women born as women.’

NS: ‘I don’t think there are circumstances there, but…’

PS: ‘So it’s different for trans women?’

NS: ‘Well, yes…’

[Ozyhibby]

Transcript from Surgeon's toe-curling interview with ITV'S Peter Smith earlier:

PS: 'Are all trans women women?'

NS: ‘That is not the point that we are dealing with here…

PS: ‘That is the question I am asking.’

NS: ‘Trans women are women, but in the present context there is no automatic right for a trans woman…’

PS: ‘So there are contexts where a trans woman is not a woman?’

NS: ‘No, there [are] circumstances when a trans woman will be housed in the male prison estate…’

PS: ‘Is there any context in which a woman born as a woman will be housed in the male estate?’

NS: ‘Look, we’re talking here about trans women…’

PS: ‘And I’m now asking about women born as women.’

NS: ‘I don’t think there are circumstances there, but…’

PS: ‘So it’s different for trans women?’

NS: ‘Well, yes…’

Nobody said they have all the exact same rights as we see with Sports. She perfectly consistent.
And nothing to do with the GRA.


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[He's here!]

Nobody said they have all the exact same rights as we see with Sports. She perfectly consistent.
And nothing to do with the GRA.


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I don't think you can just dismiss this as being unrelated to legislation. For the many women who have aired concerns about women's spaces becoming open to men who claim they are women the prisons furore vindicates those fears and their concerns that the blocked SG legislation will only exacerbate the problem.

I remember reading an interview with J K Rowling a few months ago in which she predicted Sturgeon's gender legislation would prove to be her poll tax and thinking it was a bit of a stretch to believe that. Now I'm not quite so sure...

[greenlex]

I don't think you can just dismiss this as being unrelated to legislation. For the many women who have aired concerns about women's spaces becoming open to men who claim they are women the prisons furore vindicates those fears and their concerns that the blocked SG legislation will only exacerbate the problem.

I remember reading an interview with J K Rowling a few months ago in which she predicted Sturgeon's gender legislation would prove to be her poll tax and thinking it was a bit of a stretch to believe that. Now I'm not quite so sure...
I’m sure it’s trans women who have committed assaults on women that are to be housed in male prisons. I think that’s absolutely right and hiw it should be. It absolutely should be about protecting vulnerable women. The journalist was right to question her but it wasn’t really relevant to what is front and centre at the moment.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Transcript from Surgeon's toe-curling interview with ITV'S Peter Smith earlier:

PS: 'Are all trans women women?'

PS: ‘That is the question I am asking.’

PS: ‘So there are contexts where a trans woman is not a woman?’

PS: ‘Is there any context in which a woman born as a woman will be housed in the male estate?’

PS: ‘And I’m now asking about women born as women.’

PS: ‘So it’s different for trans women?’

Now if you remove Nicola Sturgeon's responses and look at the line of questioning from Peter Smith here. It's the typical YES/NO line of questioning, where the interviewer hopes for a YES/NO response without the allowance of any context to be applied. They simply move on to the next question.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I’m sure it’s trans women who have committed assaults on women that are to be housed in male prisons. I think that’s absolutely right and hiw it should be. It absolutely should be about protecting vulnerable women. The journalist was right to question her but it wasn’t really relevant to what is front and centre at the moment.

What about the protection of vulnerable women from other women? Should those women be housed in the same prison? Or what about vulnerable men requiring protection from other men?

Why has it all been reduced to a trans-only issue?

[Stairway 2 7]

What about the protection of vulnerable women from other women? Should those women be housed in the same prison? Or what about vulnerable men requiring protection from other men?

Why has it all been reduced to a trans-only issue?

Because 99% of rape and sexual assault is committed by men, there is an obvious physical advantage too. The vast majority of trans women don't medically change, biologically they are men.

I can't believe that's the second person tonight to try the what about women housed with dangerous women

[greenlex]

What about the protection of vulnerable women from other women? Should those women be housed in the same prison? Or what about vulnerable men requiring protection from other men?

Why has it all been reduced to a trans-only issue?
Are you seriously questioning the reasoning why a biological male offender with a record of violence against women either physical or sexual shouldn’t be in a women only prison? Prisons are full of vulnerable prisoners. That’s why sex offenders are house in different areas from non sex offenders.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That’s why sex offenders are house in different areas from non sex offenders.

Indeed. So why does it matter if a trans-woman with sexual offences ends up in a female prison, if they're going to be housed in a different area anyway?

[Stairway 2 7]

Gateside in greenock is not a women's prison. There are 5 accommodation units, one for women, another for people under supervision for release. Unless they all use a single shower block then I find it hard to see how the situation she described is possible.

Former governor of gateshead says they did mix

https://mobile.twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1619973203396526083

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Let’s listen to former prison governor
@HotchkissRhona
speaking about life for vulnerable women accommodated with transgender prisoners in Scotland. This is lived experience not transphobia or any other phobia for that matter

[greenlex]

Indeed. So why does it matter if a trans-woman with sexual offences ends up in a female prison, if they're going to be housed in a different area anyway?

I’m sure there will be times they mix briefly probs my due to staffing issues etc. I don’t think they should be near female etc offenders either. They shouldn’t be near female prison officers either IMO

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I’m sure there will be times they mix briefly probs my due to staffing issues. They shouldn’t be near female prison officers either IMO

Why? Are female prison officers weaker and less capable of carrying out their job compared to male prison officers?

[Stairway 2 7]

Indeed. So why does it matter if a trans-woman with sexual offences ends up in a female prison, if they're going to be housed in a different area anyway?

They aren't in different areas. Trans women mix with females ,no one is in continuous solitary confinement because a sexual offence as that would break their human rights

[greenlex]

Why? Are female prison officers weaker and less capable of carrying out their job compared to male prison officers? Restraining a male prisoner of course they are.

[He's here!]

Restraining a male prisoner of course they are.

Maybe not if they're biological males claiming to be female :wink:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Restraining a male prisoner of course they are.

Female officers and Male officers all receive the same training for dealing with this kind of thing. Believe it or not, men get arrested by female officers rather frequently, they know what they're doing.

[He's here!]

Former governor of gateshead says they did mix

https://mobile.twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1619973203396526083

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Let’s listen to former prison governor
@HotchkissRhona
speaking about life for vulnerable women accommodated with transgender prisoners in Scotland. This is lived experience not transphobia or any other phobia for that matter

That's an interesting and informative listen.

[Hibrandenburg]

Maybe not if they're biological males claiming to be female :wink:

Well if they're willing to claim to be female just to attack women in the ladies, then what's stopping them?

[archie]

Well if they're willing to claim to be female just to attack women in the ladies, then what's stopping them?

Have you any idea how heartless that sounds? I know it's an attack line, but I can't accept that you really mean it

[archie]

Why? Are female prison officers weaker and less capable of carrying out their job compared to male prison officers?

One of to he offenders in question asked to be attended to and searched by women officers only. You ok with that?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

One of to he offenders in question asked to be attended to and searched by women officers only. You ok with that?

Whether I'm personally ok with it or not is irrelevant. Officers (regardless of their gender) will carry their jobs out accordingly. That's what they are trained to do.

[archie]

Whether I'm personally ok with it or not is irrelevant. Officers (regardless of their gender) will carry their jobs out accordingly. That's what they are trained to do.

So there's no space for women prison officers to have any concerns about the interaction with a male sex offenders? Do you really believe this?

[Moulin Yarns]

Former governor of gateshead says they did mix

https://mobile.twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1619973203396526083

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Let’s listen to former prison governor
@HotchkissRhona
speaking about life for vulnerable women accommodated with transgender prisoners in Scotland. This is lived experience not transphobia or any other phobia for that matter

The former governor of a prison in England explains something about a prison in Scotland?


https://transsafety.network/tags/rhona-hotchkiss/

And openly anti trans!!!! 🙄

[TrumpIsAPeado]

So there's no space for women prison officers to have any concerns about the interaction with a male sex offenders? Do you really believe this?

If they carry out their duties the way that they're trained to do so, then what's the concern? What do you think happens when a man gets arrested and there's only a female officer/officers at the scene? They still have to carry out all of the necessary searches just as a male officer would. Simply being female isn't some get out clause, they have to follow the necessary protocol, that's their job.

[archie]

If they carry out their duties the way that they're trained to do so, then what's the concern? What do you think happens when a man gets arrested and there's only a female officer/officers at the scene? They still have to carry out all of the necessary searches just as a male officer would. Simply being female isn't some get out clause, they have to follow the necessary protocol, that's their job.

So just to be clear, a guy gets a power or sexual thrill from demanding that only women search him, and they just have to accept it because 'that's their job'. Even though they work on a women's prison?

[archie]

The former governor of a prison in England explains something about a prison in Scotland?


https://transsafety.network/tags/rhona-hotchkiss/

And openly anti trans!!!! 🙄

I know you couldn't resist the English comment, but she was the former governor of Cornton Vale.

[147lothian]

I don't think anyone could listen to Amanda Benson's account of what it is like for a female prisoner on what is know as a female estate which was meant to house 40 women prisoners but in reality had 38 women prisoners and 2 biological male prisoners, one of whom was there for murder, and the other who she describes as a very scary hulk of a man who was about 6'3 and in there for domestic violence and come to any other conclusion than this is completely wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL_tDdSzJPE

[TrumpIsAPeado]

So just to be clear, a guy gets a power or sexual thrill from demanding that only women search him, and they just have to accept it because 'that's their job'. Even though they work on a women's prison?

Ok then. What if the man demands a male officer searches him, only for him to get a sexual thrill from it because he's gay?

[Kato]

I don't think anyone could listen to Amanda Benson's account of what it is like for a female prisoner on what is know as a female estate which was meant to house 40 women prisoners but in reality had 38 women prisoners and 2 biological male prisoners, one of whom was there for murder, and the other who she describes as a very scary hulk of a man who was about 6'3 and in there for domestic violence and come to any other conclusion than this is completely wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL_tDdSzJPEWhat's your solution, 147lothian?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[147lothian]

What's your solution, 147lothian?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

My solution is quite simple, if your born male you go to a male prison, if your born female you go to a female prison.

Transwomen need to be housed in male prison's because they were born male.

However Transwomen have to be treated like a vulnerable group of men on a male prison, with there own wing, and segregated from the wider prison population.

[Moulin Yarns]

I know you couldn't resist the English comment, but she was the former governor of Cornton Vale.

I saw gateshead mentioned!!

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't think anyone could listen to Amanda Benson's account of what it is like for a female prisoner on what is know as a female estate which was meant to house 40 women prisoners but in reality had 38 women prisoners and 2 biological male prisoners, one of whom was there for murder, and the other who she describes as a very scary hulk of a man who was about 6'3 and in there for domestic violence and come to any other conclusion than this is completely wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL_tDdSzJPE

Have you seen how many men she assaulted and injured, including police officers? I don't think she would be that scared considering her record. Not to mention she had the option of a fine instead of time!!

[CropleyWasGod]

My solution is quite simple, if your born male you go to a male prison, if your born female you go to a female prison.

Transwomen need to be housed in male prison's because they were born male.

However Transwomen have to be treated like a vulnerable group of men on a male prison, with there own wing, and segregated from the wider prison population.

How does your solution work for those who have fully transitioned?

[147lothian]

How does your solution work for those who have fully transitioned?

And trans men?

My solution is still the same even for people who have fully transitioned. They still go to a male prison if they were born male or a female prison if they were born female, this is because biological sex is immutable a baby even before it is born has chromosomes that are either male or female and no amount of surgery changes this.

Again though I do believe that trans prisoners need to have their rights protected in prison and be housed in wings that are separate from the general prison population. I hate to be the barer of bad news but in reality no-one has ever been born in the wrong body and that is a fact.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I hate to be the barer of bad news but in reality no-one has ever been born in the wrong body and that is a fact.

They used to say the same thing about homosexuals. "They're not really homosexual, they're just choosing to be."

I hate to be the barer of bad news, but in reality, you're not in these people's bodies to know whether they're in the right or wrong body and that is a fact.

[archie]

Ok then. What if the man demands a male officer searches him, only for him to get a sexual thrill from it because he's gay?

Do you think there might be any power dynamic at play here?

[archie]

I saw gateshead mentioned!!
Maybe so, but she is is a prominent ex Corton Vale governor.

[archie]

How does your solution work for those who have fully transitioned?
I think full transition does change the position and makes being in the female prison estate more tenable. But there does need to be access to the full range of services given the complex health issues at play. I'm less certain about trans men in the male prison estate, as I think they could be at considerable risk.

[Ozyhibby]

What do they do in England with transgender prisoners?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kato]

What do they do in England with transgender prisoners?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYou've worded that wrong given the tone on this thread recently.

Something like "Where does Sunak stick transgender prisoners?" ..no?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Crunchie]

Have you seen how many men she assaulted and injured, including police officers? I don't think she would be that scared considering her record. Not to mention she had the option of a fine instead of time!!
Have you seen Sturgeon's car crash interview on news at ten last night? What a mess.

[Hibrandenburg]

Have you any idea how heartless that sounds? I know it's an attack line, but I can't accept that you really mean it

You don't do irony do you?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trans-prisoners-women-jails-government-b2200573.html?amp

Seems situation in England is pretty much the same as in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trans-prisoners-women-jails-government-b2200573.html?amp

Seems situation in England is pretty much the same as in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are Scotland making it women with male genitalia aren't going to be in female prisons too, big change.

I'd read only 2 % of trans women get rid of the male genitalia. That surprised me I thought it would be much higher, as most people would say that's the thing that most identifies a male.

[AgentDaleCooper]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trans-prisoners-women-jails-government-b2200573.html?amp

Seems situation in England is pretty much the same as in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably sturgeons fault too :aok:

[AgentDaleCooper]

Have you seen Sturgeon's car crash interview on news at ten last night? What a mess.

Looked like your common gardener 'journo asks FM to appologise for something she doesn't need to appologise for' type interview to me.

[Crunchie]

Looked like your common gardener 'journo asks FM to appologise for something she doesn't need to appologise for' type interview to me.
The common gardener seemed to have her stuttering quite a bit, she didn't have a clue what to say.

[Stairway 2 7]

Nicola Sturgeon asked about Katie Dolatowski who sexualy assaulted a girl in toilets, yet is in a female prison

It seems its down to how much public pressure there is if someone gets moved
https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1620341046495543296

[Crunchie]

Nicola Sturgeon asked about Katie Dolatowski who sexualy assaulted a girl in toilets, yet is in a female prison

It seems its down to how much public pressure there is if someone gets moved
https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1620341046495543296
What we've done is set out clarity she says :faf:

[Berwickhibby]

What we've done is set out clarity she says :faf:

Clear as mud

[archie]

You don't do irony do you?

TBH I'm struggling to see anything ironic in what you said. But sure, that must be me.

[James310]

Q - "Do you think trans people who are convicted of crimes like that (sex crimes) should be in women's jails?"

SNP MP Alyn Smith: "I've nothing to say on that"

Isn't Cornton Vale in his constituency?

Although he has history here.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5355127/snp-holyrood-abuse-trans-rights-activist-election/amp/

[147lothian]

Its good to see that some trans people acknowledge the reality of biological sex, for some trans people if there is no such thing as biological sex then there can be no such thing as trans, for Debbie Hayton things were much better 10 years ago before the activists who are themselves not trans came along with the nebulous concept of gender ideology. All people have done with gender ideology virtue signaling is they have turned trans rights into a circus.


https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/trans-rights-have-been-turned-into-a-circus/ar-AA16NiTR

[AgentDaleCooper]

Its good to see that some trans people acknowledge the reality of biological sex, for some trans people if there is no such thing as biological sex then there can be no such thing as trans, for Debbie Hayton things were much better 10 years ago before the activists who are themselves not trans came along with the nebulous concept of gender ideology. All people have done with gender ideology virtue signaling is they have turned trans rights into a circus.


https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/trans-rights-have-been-turned-into-a-circus/ar-AA16NiTR

I think both sides have turned this into a circus. A lot of men with no skin in the game at all contributing.

IMO a 'debate' is not what should be happening - it should be a discussion, with sensitivity employed towards everyone affected. No need for all the 'behead TERFs'/'just say it as it is - big burly men' stuff. Totally destructive rhetoric.

[archie]

I think both sides have turned this into a circus. A lot of men with no skin in the game at all contributing.

IMO a 'debate' is not what should be happening - it should be a discussion, with sensitivity employed towards everyone affected. No need for all the 'behead TERFs'/'just say it as it is - big burly men' stuff. Totally destructive rhetoric.And no acknowledgement of the womens contribution?

[Hibrandenburg]

TBH I'm struggling to see anything ironic in what you said. But sure, that must be me.

The main argument from some posters on here is that male sex offenders are so desperate to get into the ladies toilets that they're willing to claim they're transgender to do so. The poster I quoted has argued this previously and now jokingly makes comments about transgender female police offers like it's all just a big joke for transgender females, but hey, I'm the bad guy.

[147lothian]

And no acknowledgement of the womens contribution?

Women are certainly affected most by the crazy policy of placing people in prison on the basis of how someone identifies rather than the reality of biological sex. If it wasn't for the Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson situation causing international news coverage and a public uproar, Adam Burns AKA Tiffany Scott would have been transferred to a female prison, a very dangerous individual who stalked a 13 year old girl while in prison.

They are not the only ones, Amanda Benson gives her account of what it was like to be in prison at Gateside Prison in what is known as the female estate which was meant to house 40 female prisoners but in reality had 38 female prisoners and 2 biologically male prisoners, one of whom was in there for murder, the other who she describes as a scary hulk of a man who was about 6'3 who was in there for domestic violence.

According to Amanda Benson these incredibly violent men were walking around the communal shower area naked and sometimes clearly aroused. While she and other women were in cubicles with only a curtain to protect them.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/ex-prisoner-shaking-fear-sharing-29075541?int_source=nba

[archie]

The main argument from some posters on here is that male sex offenders are so desperate to get into the ladies toilets that they're willing to claim they're transgender to do so. The poster I quoted has argued this previously and now jokingly makes comments about transgender female police offers like it's all just a big joke for transgender females, but hey, I'm the bad guy.I've got to say that's not the main argument I'm seeing. There is an argument about same sex spaces and the powerlessness many women feel about retaining these. Same sex care is also an issue. These are important issues, wouldn't you say?

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1620167434388008960?s=20&t=8PtprGIkNvL-xK3OTHizgw

[He's here!]

I think both sides have turned this into a circus. A lot of men with no skin in the game at all contributing.

IMO a 'debate' is not what should be happening - it should be a discussion, with sensitivity employed towards everyone affected. No need for all the 'behead TERFs'/'just say it as it is - big burly men' stuff. Totally destructive rhetoric.

The phrase used by JKR was actually 'hulking great rapist' which seems accurate enough. Sensitivity is all well and good but there's nothing subtle about the Bryson case. To try and adopt a 'sensitive' approach along the lines of 'everyone is who they say they are' (and, according to Sturgeon, anyone who disagrees is a bigot) is absurd in cases like this.

[Hibrandenburg]

I've got to say that's not the main argument I'm seeing. There is an argument about same sex spaces and the powerlessness many women feel about retaining these. Same sex care is also an issue. These are important issues, wouldn't you say?

Does the transgender bill remove the right to same sex care?

[archie]

Does the transgender bill remove the right to same sex care?

Taken in conjunction with the Haldane judgement it creates a situation whereby someone with a self ID'd GRC is treated as that sex. This is coupled with it being an offence to reveal if someone has a GRC makes it more likely. Having said that, the u turn on prisons opens this up again. Might other ministerial interventions occur for other situations given the precedent has been set? Who knows?

[Stairway 2 7]

Gender rebels should quit snp says Alyn Smith, no room for a difference of opinions
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c4dc6a06-a162-11ed-be83-0b182bac2124?shareToken=d22ab91be892e7b813e73250dc 652343

Joanna Cherry's response

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Self identification was not promised in the SNP manifesto & our conference did not debate never mind back it. We rebels are going nowhere particularly now that events have substantiated our legitimate concerns. I hope that’s clear

Apart from anything else many of us have resisted years of bullying. Why on Earth would we give up now?

[He's here!]

Gender rebels should quit snp says Alyn Smith, no room for a difference of opinions
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c4dc6a06-a162-11ed-be83-0b182bac2124?shareToken=d22ab91be892e7b813e73250dc 652343

Joanna Cherry's response

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Self identification was not promised in the SNP manifesto & our conference did not debate never mind back it. We rebels are going nowhere particularly now that events have substantiated our legitimate concerns. I hope that’s clear

Apart from anything else many of us have resisted years of bullying. Why on Earth would we give up now?

It's been pointed out before that self-ID is not in the manifesto. Smyth is talking rubbish. 'Play for the jersey'...jeez.

In saying that, I admire Cherry's stoicism by not (yet) resigning from the SNP after the way she's been treated by her own party.

[CropleyWasGod]

My solution is still the same even for people who have fully transitioned. They still go to a male prison if they were born male or a female prison if they were born female, this is because biological sex is immutable a baby even before it is born has chromosomes that are either male or female and no amount of surgery changes this.

Again though I do believe that trans prisoners need to have their rights protected in prison and be housed in wings that are separate from the general prison population. I hate to be the barer of bad news but in reality no-one has ever been born in the wrong body and that is a fact.

You've made your position quite plain.

Would that change if someone close to you was considering a change of gender?

[He's here!]

Taken in conjunction with the Haldane judgement it creates a situation whereby someone with a self ID'd GRC is treated as that sex. This is coupled with it being an offence to reveal if someone has a GRC makes it more likely. Having said that, the u turn on prisons opens this up again. Might other ministerial interventions occur for other situations given the precedent has been set? Who knows?

Keith Brown said yesterday: 'If someone presents as a trans person we accept that at face value'. As you say, the prisons fiasco calls into question the wisdom of such an approach and self-ID full-stop.

[James310]

It's been pointed out before that self-ID is not in the manifesto. Smyth is talking rubbish. 'Play for the jersey'...jeez.

In saying that, I admire Cherry's stoicism by not (yet) resigning from the SNP after the way she's been treated by her own party.

I am sure Smyth was against the SNP’s official policy on an independent Scotland signing the TPNW (Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons) and said so. He seems to pick and choose what people should support or not support depending on his personal views, maybe he just needs to play for the jersey.

[archie]

Does the transgender bill remove the right to same sex care?


You've made your position quite plain.

Would that change if someone close to you was considering a change of gender?
Getting a bit close to the 'would you support capital punishment if your daughter was killed ' argument. FWIW I think the argument needs detoxing if that's possible. Could we pause the legislation and perhaps have something like a citizens assembly to unpack the issues and find ways forward? Both sides would need to be open to being challenged. There has to be a way that respects the rights of all concerned surely.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.gov.scot/publications/analysis-call-evidence-responses-violence-against-women-girls-funding-review/pages/1/

Scot gov releases its review of funding for violence to women and girls services. The overwhelming responses from individuals and organisations call for single sex places.


"Single-sex spaces and services
The most frequent cross-cutting theme concerned the need for single-sex services and female-only staff. Respondents highlighted that single-sex services should be made into law, widely available, clearly advertised and co-exist with non-single-sex options. Responses suggested that single-sex spaces are vital to ensuring victims of VAWG feel safe and protected, otherwise women might self-exclude due to religious or cultural reasons."

[AgentDaleCooper]

And no acknowledgement of the womens contribution?

Jesus christ.

[archie]

Jesus christ.
????

[Smartie]

I think both sides have turned this into a circus. A lot of men with no skin in the game at all contributing.

IMO a 'debate' is not what should be happening - it should be a discussion, with sensitivity employed towards everyone affected. No need for all the 'behead TERFs'/'just say it as it is - big burly men' stuff. Totally destructive rhetoric.

Totally agree.

A very interesting and sensitive subject that should be treated with dignity and respect has been hijacked by morons.

[AgentDaleCooper]

????

I was talking about negative contributions, so for me, a cis male, with no skin in game, to start commenting on how women en mas are contributing to the discourse would be pretty royally misogynistic.

EDIT: sorry if i picked you up wrong, which i probably did...time for me to give this thread a break :aok:

[Crunchie]

It's been pointed out before that self-ID is not in the manifesto. Smyth is talking rubbish. 'Play for the jersey'...jeez.

In saying that, I admire Cherry's stoicism by not (yet) resigning from the SNP after the way she's been treated by her own party.
They've treated her disgracefully, I hope and suspect she'll have the last laugh.

[Ozyhibby]

https://youtu.be/WqDlVtgeYnk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

Taken in conjunction with the Haldane judgement it creates a situation whereby someone with a self ID'd GRC is treated as that sex. This is coupled with it being an offence to reveal if someone has a GRC makes it more likely. Having said that, the u turn on prisons opens this up again. Might other ministerial interventions occur for other situations given the precedent has been set? Who knows?

So that's a no then.

[archie]

So that's a no then.I don't know how you can come to that conclusion from what I said. Care to expand?

[AgentDaleCooper]

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion from what I said. Care to expand?

i know i said i'd butt out, but this is the problem that seems to keep coming up, especially after something in the news - people, who as i keep saying, have no skin in the game, seem to interpret things so radically differently because the issue gets so heated.

[archie]

i know i said i'd butt out, but this is the problem that seems to keep coming up, especially after something in the news - people, who as i keep saying, have no skin in the game, seem to interpret things so radically differently because the issue gets so heated.Just out of interest, who do you think 'has skin in the game'.

[Stairway 2 7]

Just out of interest, who do you think 'has skin in the game'.

Surely anyone who is trans, female, has a close relative is female or just someone who supports the rights of any of the groups affected. Then again on the other hand I'm not a public sector worker but I'm very concerned about their dispute also

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/has-nicola-sturgeon-learnt-her-lesson-from-the-appalling-case-of-isla-bryson/

Article from former Cornton Vale governor. Be interesting to hear what the current governor thinks of this fiasco but as Hotchkiss points out they'd lose their job if they spoke out.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion from what I said. Care to expand?

Has the transgender bill removed the right to same sex care? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Moulin Yarns]

My niece is up on holiday, she has 10 years in the care sector in Yorkshire.


I asked her about the intimate care of residents, something that has been brought up here, and she said that the care was very much the same for male and female residents, and administered by all staff in the same caring way. Men given care, such as toileting by female carers and vice versa, although probably 95% of care staff in her organisation are female.

Do the men complain? No.

[archie]

Has the transgender bill removed the right to same sex care? A simple yes or no will suffice.I'm not being evasive, but as I said, in conjunction with the Haldane judgement, it may do. This would need tested if the legislation was to go through. This is from the evidence given to the UK parliament committee yesterday: it would be helpful to revisit after Haldane judgment. Up until the ruling, we were not sure if sex could be modified by GRC for purposes of EA. Haldane judgment goes further than that, so 'sex' is now 'legal sex'.

I think the defensive line you are pushing is that it's the 2004 Act that is operating. Also, there is no provision in the current Bill that specifically states anything on same sex care. But the legal sex issue (which impacts on same sex care) will need tested in court. There is potential for a trans person giving care and the person receiving care to have recourse to the courts in the case of disputes.

I know you crave a simple answer to this, but it's just not there. It's a complex interaction between a range of different pieces of legislation, with uncertain outcomes.

[archie]

My niece is up on holiday, she has 10 years in the care sector in Yorkshire.


I asked her about the intimate care of residents, something that has been brought up here, and she said that the care was very much the same for male and female residents, and administered by all staff in the same caring way. Men given care, such as toileting by female carers and vice versa, although probably 95% of care staff in her organisation are female.

Do the men complain? No.Oh well, that's that then.

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh well, that's that then.

I'll add that my niece is responsible for 250 staff, are first hand accounts not allowed in this debate?

[Stairway 2 7]

My niece is up on holiday, she has 10 years in the care sector in Yorkshire.


I asked her about the intimate care of residents, something that has been brought up here, and she said that the care was very much the same for male and female residents, and administered by all staff in the same caring way. Men given care, such as toileting by female carers and vice versa, although probably 95% of care staff in her organisation are female.

Do the men complain? No.

Women can request same sex care, although I'm not sure what happens is a trans women is legally female and a business can't see if a birth certificate has been changed.

My mum has worked in various care her whole life from elderly to severely disabled

[archie]

I'll add that my niece is responsible for 250 staff, are first hand accounts not allowed in this debate?Of course they are. I'm also not doubting the lived experience that your niece has. But what about this woman's perspective https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-invalid-women/

[Stairway 2 7]

A repost on how gra will affect single sex care and spaces

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/the-potential-for-gra-reform-to-affect-who-can-access-single-sex-services-briefing-for-msps/

[Moulin Yarns]

Women can request same sex care, although I'm not sure what happens is a trans women is legally female and a business can't see if a birth certificate has been changed.

My mum has worked in various care her whole life from elderly to severely disabled

I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?

[AgentDaleCooper]

Just out of interest, who do you think 'has skin in the game'.

cis and trans women. i think when i say 'has skin in the game' i probably mean something akin to 'has lived experience', though i know that phrase probably drives some folk up the wall.

i'm bothered about it because i have trans friends, and, obviously, friends and family who are cis women, some (actually a lot) of whom have been on the receiving end of varying degrees of predatory behaviour by men. many, i think the majority, actually approve of the GRR, but that is totally anecdotal so i don't expect you to take that seriously. genuinely, though, when i talk to those who are ardently in support of the legislation, i'm often trying to make the case that you have been arguing, just in order to try to get people to see common ground, because it really just seems to me that people don't necessarily fully understand both sides properly (i'm not saying that i do either though, i just try to!)

[archie]

I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?
I think that's a false equivalence TBH. Also, you use the term 'legitimate trans woman'. I've not seen that before. What do you mean by that?

[archie]

cis and trans womenSo no place for men or trans men?

[James310]

I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?

What's a legitimate trans woman? And what would you define as a non legitimate trans woman?

I think this is an important point.

[Stairway 2 7]

I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?

When 99% of sexual assaults are committed by men women obviously have different hard gained protections.

[He's here!]

Has the transgender bill removed the right to same sex care? A simple yes or no will suffice.

I don't think anyone could confidently provide a simple yes or no answer.

[AgentDaleCooper]

So no place for men or trans men?

yeah, in relation to access to male only spaces - but that's not what anyone has been talking about on here. i think you're being either defensive or facetious.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I don't think anyone could confidently provide a simple yes or no answer.

let me try - no, it's not.

people are concerned that it has, because the media having been cynically bringing up loads of cases NOT affected by the legislation in order to discredit the SNP. i don't personally care for the SNP at all, but i think this is what is happening. it's very similar to Corbyn - they've seen their opening, and they have the crowbars out.

[archie]

yeah, in relation to access to male only spaces - but that's not what anyone has been talking about on here. i think you're being either defensive or facetious.Not at all. I think this is a really important piece of social policy and related legislation. I think it's better for policy if there is widespread engagement with society rather than policy being something politicians 'do' to people.

[James310]

let me try - no, it's not.

people are concerned that it has, because the media having been cynically bringing up loads of cases NOT affected by the legislation in order to discredit the SNP. i don't personally care for the SNP at all, but i think this is what is happening. it's very similar to Corbyn - they've seen their opening, and they have the crowbars out.

Why are Joanna Cherry and Ash Regan ex SNP Minister trying to discredit the SNP? And the others SNP MSPs that voted against it? Why would they look to discredit their own party?

Doesn't really make sense does it.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?

there definitely is a difference - just look at the statistics, as pointed out by Stairway. It's why there is, at the very, very absolute bare minimum, an emotional legitimacy to women's concerns about the issue, which is why people need to be very careful in how they talk about it, and why all the 'TERF' stuff is so unhelpful.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Not at all. I think this is a really important piece of social policy and related legislation. I think it's better for policy if there is widespread engagement with society rather than policy being something politicians 'do' to people.

are you as engaged with other issues as you are with this one?

[Stairway 2 7]

let me try - no, it's not.

people are concerned that it has, because the media having been cynically bringing up loads of cases NOT affected by the legislation in order to discredit the SNP. i don't personally care for the SNP at all, but i think this is what is happening. it's very similar to Corbyn - they've seen their opening, and they have the crowbars out.

Joanna Cherry has probably been one of the biggest opponents online. She is a nightmare for pro gra supporters who want to paint this as an anti spn thing. It's ridiculous, people from across the spectrum are for and against

[AgentDaleCooper]

Why are Joanna Cherry and Ash Regan ex SNP Minister trying to discredit the SNP? And the others SNP MSPs that voted against it? Why would they look to discredit their own party?

Doesn't really make sense does it.

they aren't the media. i'm talking about the stuff that's been in the papers recently and how it has been conflated as being related to the legislation.

[James310]

they aren't the media. i'm talking about the stuff that's been in the papers recently and how it has been conflated as being related to the legislation.

So are the likes of Joanna Cherry's and Ash Regan's concerns valid and real? If not what has motivated them?

[AgentDaleCooper]

Joanna Cherry has probably been one of the biggest opponents online. She is a nightmare for pro gra supporters who want to paint this as an anti spn thing. It's ridiculous, people from across the spectrum are for and against

she's also an absolute nightmare for anyone who disagrees with her about anything, often threatening journos with legal action when they refute her claims.

[James310]

she's also an absolute nightmare for anyone who disagrees with her about anything, often threatening journos with legal action when they refute her claims.

How can you threaten someone with legal action for having a different opinion? Not sure what you mean here? She is a KC, I reckon she knows what she is doing regards the law.

[Stairway 2 7]

she's also an absolute nightmare for anyone who disagrees with her about anything, often threatening journos with legal action when they refute her claims.

That's ridiculous.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not at all. I think this is a really important piece of social policy and related legislation. I think it's better for policy if there is widespread engagement with society rather than policy being something politicians 'do' to people.

What would your "widespread engagement with society" look like?

[AgentDaleCooper]

That's ridiculous.

It's literally true.

[He's here!]

let me try - no, it's not.

people are concerned that it has, because the media having been cynically bringing up loads of cases NOT affected by the legislation in order to discredit the SNP. i don't personally care for the SNP at all, but i think this is what is happening. it's very similar to Corbyn - they've seen their opening, and they have the crowbars out.

I don't think it's the media that have made that question a tricky one to answer. As another poster has pointed out the Haldane ruling means there is scope for legal challenge. I don't think you'd find too many politicians queuing up to give a definitive answer now.

It's certainly notable that Scottish Labour appear to have gone into hiding in the wake of the prisons fiasco.

[JeMeSouviens]

Joanna Cherry has probably been one of the biggest opponents online. She is a nightmare for pro gra supporters who want to paint this as an anti spn thing. It's ridiculous, people from across the spectrum are for and against

In an amazing development - different people can oppose the same thing for different reasons! Shockeroony.

[archie]

are you as engaged with other issues as you are with this one?Yes - but it's dominating things at the moment.

[147lothian]

So are the likes of Joanna Cherry's and Ash Regan's concerns valid and real? If not what has motivated them?

People have real concerns about the GRA. Nine SNP MSP's broke party whip to vote against it, so people making out that folk are either for it or against along the lines of whether they support the SNP or not just doesn't stack up.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/gender-recognition-reform-stage-one-passes-despite-nine-snp-msps-defying-party-whip-3896044

[TrumpIsAPeado]

People have real concerns about the GRA. Nine SNP MSP's broke party whip to vote against it, so people making out that folk are either for it or against along the lines of whether they support the SNP or not just doesn't stack up.

https://www.herald.com/politics/23209433.nine-snp-msps-break-whip-vote-gender-recognition-reforms/

That's true. But it also works both ways. All the media focus is on "the split in the SNP", while completely ignoring the MSPs from other parties that voted in favour of the bill, despite the clear divisions from other MSPs in their party and the one's from their London counterparts.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that this bill was backed by 86 MSPs to 39.

[AgentDaleCooper]

That's ridiculous.

here - she actually went through the courts to seek the apology and didn't get it (https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/966642709426524160)

here - basically intimidating people who publicly disagree with her. (https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/joanna-cherry-takes-legal-action-against-actor-in-disproportionate-move-3141696)

i'm not saying she's a completely bad egg or anything, she just isn't the saint that she's made out to be either - she's a lawyer, after all. but these cases aren't exactly in the spirit of free and vigorous public discourse.

i'm not passing judgement on the validity of her concerns here.

[archie]

What would your "widespread engagement with society" look like?That's a hell of a question. Ireland led on citizens assemblies on contentious subjects. It was tried here in a rather garbled way. That could be a mechanism. But there's a wider practice issue here. There's a fairly tight policy community in Scotland, encompassing the government, think tanks/lobbyists, third sector bodies and academics. Often people can jump between these groups - Kezia Dugdale would be an example (and that's not a criticism). It's very easy for legislators to focus their engagement there. People know how the system works and speak the same language. We've spoken before about consultations and how they aren't votes. But it's much harder to evaluate individual views than those of representative bodies. So it becomes a self justifying circle of opinion forming.

I think issues blow up in politico's face when they try to drive things through without really selling it to the wider public. On the Gender Reform bill, there have been complaints that a very small activist group of the policy community was coopted and given undue access to the process. Is it true? I don't know, but there does seem to be failings on who was allowed into and excluded from the policy making and legislative process. In addition, there wasn't a clear articulated policy position on what SG wanted to do that had been tested with the public - the SNP manifesto was vague on it. So an arguably skewed policy making environment and uncooperative legislative process has, in my view, led to flawed legislation. The government didn't take all of it's own side with it and the legislation was passed through a complex mix of motivations. It's arguable that Labour's confused position came down to simply not wanting to be seen to vote with the Tories.

Because of the process the legislation started springing leaks right away. There is confusion about definitions, a lack of understanding of some of the implications, and widespread public confusion. And then the catastrophic failures around the prisons issue. I believe had there been fuller open engagement earlier in the process then some of these issues might have been avoided. And we wouldn't have had the toxic debate where an SG Minister would choose to resign. It would also have been better if it hadn't got wrapped into the constitution question.

So how do we engage better? here's some ideas:

- Be upfront about what you want to do in advance
- Have clarity on what the issue is and how you want to solve it
- Don't just listen to the people who agree with you and don't exclude dissenting voices
- Consider ways to have a conversation like a citizens assembly or task force to actually consider issues and come up with options.

I'm conscious that those directly affected could say that it's not fair to have people debate their existence. The thing is, I don't think the majority of people are doing that. Even on here, I don't get the sense that the issue is opposition to trans people. But I do sense a significant pushback where people are excluded from the process and told their views are not valid.

As ever open to thoughts and critique.

[archie]

here - she actually went through the courts to seek the apology and didn't get it (https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/966642709426524160)

here - basically intimidating people who publicly disagree with her. (https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/joanna-cherry-takes-legal-action-against-actor-in-disproportionate-move-3141696)

i'm not saying she's a completely bad egg or anything, she just isn't the saint that she's made out to be either - she's a lawyer, after all. but these cases aren't exactly in the spirit of free and vigorous public discourse.

i'm not passing judgement on the validity of her concerns here.

I think given the level of threat she has faced I'll give her a pass.https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,joanna-cherry-says-snp-party-member-threatened-to-rape-her

[He's here!]

That's true. But it also works both ways. All the media focus is on "the split in the SNP", while completely ignoring the MSPs from other parties that voted in favour of the bill, despite the clear divisions from other MSPs in their party and the one's from their London counterparts.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that this bill was backed by 86 MSPs to 39.

Pretty obvious the governing party, who are the architects of the bill, will command the most media attention on this issue.

[Stairway 2 7]

here - she actually went through the courts to seek the apology and didn't get it (https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/966642709426524160)

here - basically intimidating people who publicly disagree with her. (https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/joanna-cherry-takes-legal-action-against-actor-in-disproportionate-move-3141696)

i'm not saying she's a completely bad egg or anything, she just isn't the saint that she's made out to be either - she's a lawyer, after all. but these cases aren't exactly in the spirit of free and vigorous public discourse.

i'm not passing judgement on the validity of her concerns here.

Kc challenges people over deformation is hardly a shock. I doubt anyone says she's a Saint, I disagree with half of what she says, but she and others put to bed the shout that it's an anti snp war

[CropleyWasGod]

That's a hell of a question. Ireland led on citizens assemblies on contentious subjects. It was tried here in a rather garbled way. That could be a mechanism. But there's a wider practice issue here. There's a fairly tight policy community in Scotland, encompassing the government, think tanks/lobbyists, third sector bodies and academics. Often people can jump between these groups - Kezia Dugdale would be an example (and that's not a criticism). It's very easy for legislators to focus their engagement there. People know how the system works and speak the same language. We've spoken before about consultations and how they aren't votes. But it's much harder to evaluate individual views than those of representative bodies. So it becomes a self justifying circle of opinion forming.

I think issues blow up in politico's face when they try to drive things through without really selling it to the wider public. On the Gender Reform bill, there have been complaints that a very small activist group of the policy community was coopted and given undue access to the process. Is it true? I don't know, but there does seem to be failings on who was allowed into and excluded from the policy making and legislative process. In addition, there wasn't a clear articulated policy position on what SG wanted to do that had been tested with the public - the SNP manifesto was vague on it. So an arguably skewed policy making environment and uncooperative legislative process has, in my view, led to flawed legislation. The government didn't take all of it's own side with it and the legislation was passed through a complex mix of motivations. It's arguable that Labour's confused position came down to simply not wanting to be seen to vote with the Tories.

Because of the process the legislation started springing leaks right away. There is confusion about definitions, a lack of understanding of some of the implications, and widespread public confusion. And then the catastrophic failures around the prisons issue. I believe had there been fuller open engagement earlier in the process then some of these issues might have been avoided. And we wouldn't have had the toxic debate where an SG Minister would choose to resign. It would also have been better if it hadn't got wrapped into the constitution question.

So how do we engage better? here's some ideas:

- Be upfront about what you want to do in advance
- Have clarity on what the issue is and how you want to solve it
- Don't just listen to the people who agree with you and don't exclude dissenting voices
- Consider ways to have a conversation like a citizens assembly or task force to actually consider issues and come up with options.

I'm conscious that those directly affected could say that it's not fair to have people debate their existence. The thing is, I don't think the majority of people are doing that. Even on here, I don't get the sense that the issue is opposition to trans people. But I do sense a significant pushback where people are excluded from the process and told their views are not valid.

As ever open to thoughts and critique.

Ta.

I'm interested in how the Irish system is viewed. I have colleagues in Ireland who think their system of public engagement is poor, that it is weighted too much towards the religious establishment. They are envious of our system, as are many in England.

Those who do engage with the political process always judge it on how "they" have been treated. I have been involved in 5 or 6 exercises like this. I have experienced feelings of it being "superb" and of it being "biased as f". Only once did I feel that the Government of the day "got it right". That kind of supports my point.

The system isn't perfect; any consultation exercise which encourages cutting-and-pasting of the same points ad nauseam is bound to be flawed. But ,returning to my first point, IMO it's more open than it appears to be with our neighbours.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Pretty obvious the governing party, who are the architects of the bill, will command the most media attention on this issue.

Then you would expect that media attention to be positive. Being the governing party and managing to gain cross party support to achieve a rather convincing result.

But we both know that it's anything but positive.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think anyone could confidently provide a simple yes or no answer.

So it's no until proven otherwise which is a simple yes or no answer without the whole whataboutery.

[CropleyWasGod]

So it's no until proven otherwise.

One thing to come out of the last round of amendments was a recognition of the need to issue guidance to all public bodies on the practical implications of the GRRA.

For obvious reasons, that won't be happening for a while.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Kc challenges people over deformation is hardly a shock. I doubt anyone says she's a Saint, I disagree with half of what she says, but she and others put to bed the shout that it's an anti snp war

it's not a shock, but it's not really ok either.

i'm certainly not saying that the whole thing is an anti-SNP war - what i mean, though, is that as of the UK parliament blocking the bill, the issue is being weaponised in the press to undermine Sturgeon and by extension, independence. i absolutely don't hold Cherry in any way accountable for that, obvioulsy.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I think given the level of threat she has faced I'll give her a pass.https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,joanna-cherry-says-snp-party-member-threatened-to-rape-her

it's absolutely appalling what's been thrown at her, and at JKR, and pretty much any woman with a public profile who has spoken out on the issue. that doesn't make it ok to intimidate people who disagree with you.

[archie]

So it's no until proven otherwise which is a simple yes or no answer without the whole whataboutery.

There's no whataboutery and it's not a yes or no. Legal experts have pointed to potential issues that can only be resolved by the courts. The idea that it's a no until proven otherwise doesn't really stack up I'm afraid.

[Hibrandenburg]

There's no whataboutery and it's not a yes or no. Legal experts have pointed to potential issues that can only be resolved by the courts. The idea that it's a no until proven otherwise doesn't really stack up I'm afraid.

Has anyone been refused same sex care?

[Stairway 2 7]

So it's no until proven otherwise which is a simple yes or no answer without the whole whataboutery.

Here's a large study on that question with points made from both sides. No one could give a definite answer to yes or no. There is many laws and views that contradict each other. Its really silly to just ask for a yes or no to such an argued over question with many different interpretations

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/the-potential-for-gra-reform-to-affect-who-can-access-single-sex-services-briefing-for-msps/

[Hibrandenburg]

Here's a large study on that question with points made from both sides. No one could give a definite answer to yes or no. There is many laws and views that contradict each other. Its really silly to just ask for a yes or no to such an argued over question with many different interpretations

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/05/20/the-potential-for-gra-reform-to-affect-who-can-access-single-sex-services-briefing-for-msps/

Has anyone been refused same sex care?

[Stairway 2 7]

Has anyone been refused same sex care?

How would that ever be public, its a ridiculous question. What has went public is single sex prisons, female shelters and rape crisis centres having trans females

[James310]

Has anyone been refused same sex care?

Do you know the answer? If not how do you know if it's true or false?

[Hibrandenburg]

How would that ever be public, its a ridiculous question. What has went public is single sex prisons, female shelters and rape crisis centres having trans females

I'm talking about same sex care, it's been put out there as a problem. I just want to know if anyone has been refused it due to the transgender bill. If so then please point me to an example, otherwise it's pure fear mongering.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm talking about same sex care, it's been put out there as a problem. I just want to know if anyone has been refused it due to the transgender bill. If so then please point me to an example, otherwise it's pure fear mongering.

The bill isn't law yet, so it can't have been.

[marinello59]

I'm talking about same sex care, it's been put out there as a problem. I just want to know if anyone has been refused it due to the transgender bill. If so then please point me to an example, otherwise it's pure fear mongering.

The transgender bill isn’t law so no.

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you know the answer? If not how do you know if it's true or false?

Something like that would be all over the scare tabloids. Until I see evidence that it's actually happened then I'll file it under scare mongering.

[James310]

Something like that would be all over the scare tabloids. Until I see evidence that it's actually happened then I'll file it under scare mongering.

So you don't know either. 👍

[Hibrandenburg]

The transgender bill isn’t law so no.

There, that wasn't too difficult. :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm talking about same sex care, it's been put out there as a problem. I just want to know if anyone has been refused it due to the transgender bill. If so then please point me to an example, otherwise it's pure fear mongering.

It's been put out there as one of many female rights that could be eroded. There was an article here about a heavily disabled woman who had short term memory loss. She said she was petrified of a trans female having the right as a legal female to give her intimate care. Someone on here said her fears are invalid because she is worried about hypotheticals. It was one of the worst things I've read on the thread. It's about hard gained rights being taken away.

But to answer your ridiculous question again. That information about someone's care would not be public knowledge. The person also wouldn't be able to ask to see a gra by law so wouldn't know, they would be legally female

[Hibrandenburg]

So you don't know either. 👍

But you guys are claiming it's a real and present danger, surely you can back up your claims with facts.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's been put out there as one of many female rights that could be eroded. There was an article here about a heavily disabled woman who had short term memory loss. She said she was petrified of a trans female having the right as a legal female to give her intimate care. Someone on here said her fears are invalid because she is worried about hypotheticals. It was one of the worst things I've read on the thread. It's about hard gained rights being taken away.

But to answer your ridiculous question again. That information about someone's care would not be public knowledge. The person also wouldn't be able to ask to see a gra by law so wouldn't know, they would be legally female

Did that woman have care refused because of her valid fears or did she have a transgender female forced upon her. I'm guessing she more than likely received care from a biological female.

[Stairway 2 7]

Did that woman have care refused because of her valid fears or did she have a transgender female forced upon her. I'm guessing she more than likely received care from a biological female.

Her point is she will be living in fear as she wouldn't be able to ask or know if she was trans. How would she know no one would be allowed to tell her

Are you another one saying her fears aren't valid

[James310]

But you guys are claiming it's a real and present danger, surely you can back up your claims with facts.

Women are saying it's a concern for them, who are we to tell these women they are wrong and their concerns are stupid and they just need to get on with it.

[Hibrandenburg]

Her point is she will be living in fear as she wouldn't be able to ask or know if she was trans. How would she know no one would be allowed to tell her

Are you another one saying her fears aren't valid

Read my post, I already said her fears are valid, all fears and phobias are valid but not always rational.

You guys are arguing hypotheticals, using that logic we all need to believe in God or at least accept his possible existence because other people believe in him/her/it, sorry but until I see proof it's just hypothetical and therefore scare mongering.

[Stairway 2 7]

Read my post, I already said her fears are valid, all fears and phobias are valid but not always rational.

You guys are arguing hypotheticals, using that logic we all need to believe in God or at least accept his possible existence because other people believe in him/her/it, sorry but until I see proof it's just hypothetical and therefore scare mongering.

This to me is pretty disgusting to be honest. Equating disabled people saying a ruling opens up an avenue to different biological sex care to a phobia or believing in God

This isn't a hypothetical her fear is enough and her rights and others are enough. Both sides of the debate really show themselves up sometimes

[Hibrandenburg]

Women are saying it's a concern for them, who are we to tell these women they are wrong and their concerns are stupid and they just need to get on with it.

They maybe concerned and it might be valid but is it rational? Have there been previous cases where patients have been refused same sex care? Do you really believe that a transsexual carer would want to or be forced to care for someone objected to them caring for them? That's just mental.

[Hibrandenburg]

This to me is pretty disgusting to be honest. Equating disabled people saying a ruling opens up an avenue to different biological sex care to a phobia or believing in God

This isn't a hypothetical her fear is enough and her rights and others are enough. Both sides of the debate really show themselves up sometimes

That's a common held belief from the anti-trans side of the debate, that somehow believing that trans people should be accepted is disgusting. I can live with that.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not sure if this is the case being discussed.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/severely-learning-disabled-girl-sex-based-rights-under-threat/


If it is:-

It's not Scottish, so the GRA/GRRB isn't relevant.

It's been imposed by the local authority, apparently to comply with the Equality Act.


If it's not, the EA still affects any similar Scottish cases.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's a common held belief from the anti-trans side of the debate, that somehow believing that trans people should be accepted is disgusting. I can live with that.

Way to twist they views. Disgusting is saying someone with a disabilities wishes are irrelevant and irrational.

Trans people should and must be accepted, but not at the detriment to women's rights. There needs to be some caveats and I'm sure they will come as they have in prisons this week

[archie]

But you guys are claiming it's a real and present danger, surely you can back up your claims with facts.

This is a bizarre line of argument. If Hibs said they were only going to play 16 year olds on Saturday. I would raise concerns about us getting thumped. Using your argument I would be fear mongering as I couldn't prove that decision had led to a defeat, because it hadn't happened yet.

No one has said the phrase clear and present danger. But people, not just on here, have raised concerns about the potential impact of the legislation. But until it's enacted we can't know.

I sense you are angry about the issue, but I'm afraid no one can give you the certainty you crave.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not sure if this is the case being discussed.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/severely-learning-disabled-girl-sex-based-rights-under-threat/


If it is:-

It's not Scottish, so the GRA/GRRB isn't relevant.

It's been imposed by the local authority, apparently to comply with the Equality Act.

If it's not, the EA still affects any similar Scottish cases.

Pretty much makes a mockery of the UK government's meddling in Scottish affairs.

[Hibrandenburg]

Way to twist they views. Disgusting is saying someone with a disabilities wishes are irrelevant and irrational.

Trans people should and must be accepted, but not at the detriment to women's rights. There needs to be some caveats and I'm sure they will come as they have in prisons this week

I'm sure they will too, so why the outrage?

[Stairway 2 7]

Not sure if this is the case being discussed.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/severely-learning-disabled-girl-sex-based-rights-under-threat/


If it is:-

It's not Scottish, so the GRA/GRRB isn't relevant.

It's been imposed by the local authority, apparently to comply with the Equality Act.


If it's not, the EA still affects any similar Scottish cases.

It's not it was Henrietta Freeman. Her fear is Scottish care providers and charities will go the way rape crisis charities and some women's refuges have gone and say trans women are literally women. If they did then it would be same sex care

[Hibrandenburg]

This is a bizarre line of argument. If Hibs said they were only going to play 16 year olds on Saturday. I would raise concerns about us getting thumped. Using your argument I would be fear mongering as I couldn't prove that decision had led to a defeat, because it hadn't happened yet.

No one has said the phrase clear and present danger. But people, not just on here, have raised concerns about the potential impact of the legislation. But until it's enacted we can't know.

I sense you are angry about the issue, but I'm afraid no one can give you the certainty you crave.

My argument is bizarre but you then use an analogy comparing the transgender bill to Hibs playing a team of 16 year old :faf:

[archie]

Not sure if this is the case being discussed.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/severely-learning-disabled-girl-sex-based-rights-under-threat/


If it is:-

It's not Scottish, so the GRA/GRRB isn't relevant.

It's been imposed by the local authority, apparently to comply with the Equality Act.


If it's not, the EA still affects any similar Scottish cases.

It's not. The woman in question is a quadriplegic who feels very vulnerable if she doesn't have female only care. I'd say it's a campaign rather than a legal challenge.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm sure they will too, so why the outrage?

Because there isn't at the minute. Katie dolatowski was placed in a female refuge and is now in a female prison. You might say it's irrational but some women will be scared of trans women being in refuges and prisons now. People with disabilities will be worried that trans female will be seen as females by some care providers.

The only caveat so far that has been brought in is because public outrage

[CropleyWasGod]

It's not it was Henrietta Freeman. Her fear is Scottish care providers and charities will go the way rape crisis charities and some women's refuges have gone and say trans women are literally women. If they did then it would be same sex care

Thanks for clarifying.

But the point stands that the EA seems to have primacy, which would also be the case in Scotland. So nothing to do with anything we may or may not (be allowed to) pass.

[archie]

My argument is bizarre but you then use an analogy comparing the transgender bill to Hibs playing a team of 16 year old :faf:

So how does the analogy not work?

[archie]

Pretty much makes a mockery of the UK government's meddling in Scottish affairs.
If that were the case any judicial review raised by the SG would win. It's about the Bill's impact on the UK

[Stairway 2 7]

Thanks for clarifying.

But the point stands that the EA seems to have primacy, which would also be the case in Scotland. So nothing to do with anything we may or may not (be allowed to) pass.

You can see how she is doubtful when that also should go for rape crisis centres and women's refuges. They can be protected by law but as we've seen recently it's up to the provider. There's hundreds of care groups, one could choose to say trans women are women, especially when gra is opened up

[Hibrandenburg]

So how does the analogy not work?

Because there is precedent for young unexperienced teams getting thumped, there is none for people being refused same sex care.

[Stairway 2 7]

Because there is precedent for young unexperienced teams getting thumped, there is none for people being refused same sex care.

But it would be same sex care. The same as it was a same sex women's refuge katie dolatowski went to, same sex prison or same sex rape crisis support. That's what a gra is

[archie]

Because there is precedent for young unexperienced teams getting thumped, there is none for people being refused same sex care.
So you accept that it's possible to take a view on something that hasn't yet happened, based on other sources of evidence?

[Hibrandenburg]

But it would be same sex care. The same as it was a same sex women's refuge katie dolatowski went to, same sex prison or same sex rape crisis support. That's what a gra is

Show me an example where same sex care was denied and I'll reconsider my opinion, anything else is whataboutery.

[James310]

Pretty much makes a mockery of the UK government's meddling in Scottish affairs.

So the Scottish Government will easily win in court then? Let's see.

[Hibrandenburg]

So you accept that it's possible to take a view on something that hasn't yet happened, based on other sources of evidence?

Yes, but I don't believe women would be denied same sex care based on the Scottish transgender bill. There's zero evidence or reason to believe so unless you want to believe it. Now we're back to the religion analogy but that's apparently disgusting.

[Hibrandenburg]

So the Scottish Government will easily win in court then? Let's see.

The court that's a UK government organ you mean? My question is also an answer BTW.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

So the Scottish Government will easily win in court then? Let's see.

A court system that the tories have spent the best part of 12+ years chipping away at through increasingly more draconian legislation?

[Stairway 2 7]

Yes, but I don't believe women would be denied same sex care based on the Scottish transgender bill. There's zero evidence or reason to believe so unless you want to believe it. Now we're back to the religion analogy but that's apparently disgusting.

Would you believe women would be denied same sex refuge centres or rape support or prison. I don't think you know what a gra is, it would be same sex care if a trans female was giving it to a biological female.

I've also no idea if trans females are in rape crisis centres or women's refuges right now. How would we know as they are seen as same sex. There is plenty of evidence to believe there is pretty much no female only spaces now. I'd never have believed a woman's refuge would have biological males in it before it came out this week

[James310]

The court that's a UK government organ you mean? My question is also an answer BTW.

How is the Court of Session in Edinburgh a UK Government Organ? Are you getting mixed up with the Supreme Court, the one that ruled against the UK Government on Brexit not that long ago.

[James310]

A court system that the tories have spent the best part of 12+ years chipping away at through increasingly more draconian legislation?

What the Court of Session in Edinburgh? That's where it's going next.

[Stairway 2 7]

Niomi Cunningham an employment and discrimination lawyer explains to the women and equality committee why GRA will be a legal nightmare for small businesses to stop transfemales from from female only situations

https://mobile.twitter.com/treesey/status/1620460497069035520

@treesey
Brilliant from Naomi Cunningham speaking at
@Commonswomequ
explaining how self ID impacts small service providers - the refuge or the spray tanning salon

[AgentDaleCooper]

Niomi Cunningham an employment and discrimination lawyer explains to the women and equality committee why GRA will be a legal nightmare for small businesses to stop transfemales from from female only situations

https://mobile.twitter.com/treesey/status/1620460497069035520

@treesey
Brilliant from Naomi Cunningham speaking at
@Commonswomequ
explaining how self ID impacts small service providers - the refuge or the spray tanning salon

it seems to me that she's talking as though a man could just spontaneously self declare as a woman and walk in to a refuge. would it not still require 6 months of living as a woman to get a GRC under the GRA? my understanding is that the reason for it is that it is currently too difficult for trans people to transition, and that they need to endure a minimum of two years of going into toilets that don't match their gender identity. is there something in the act that i'm missing that makes it a much more imminent and spontaneous risk? i basically though the idea of it is to make it easier, i.e. less awful, to go through gender re-assignment.

[James310]

it seems to me that she's talking as though a man could just spontaneously self declare as a woman and walk in to a refuge. would it not still require 6 months of living as a woman to get a GRC under the GRA? my understanding is that the reason for it is that it is currently too difficult for trans people to transition, and that they need to endure a minimum of two years of going into toilets that don't match their gender identity. is there something in the act that i'm missing that makes it a much more imminent and spontaneous risk? i basically though the idea of it is to make it easier, i.e. less awful, to go through gender re-assignment.

It's 3 months not 6 unless you are 16 or 17. Also you don't need to live as a woman or man, you just fill in a form online and you are now a woman or a man. As it's self ID nobody is checking anything.

[147lothian]

After women raised concerns about the GRRB being a threat to women only spaces, we were told the the very idea that a predatory man would lie to gain entry to a woman only space was a transphobic dog whistle, then what we were told wouldn't happen did happen, Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson a double rapist was in a women only prison. This shows that if you introduce Self-ID laws where any man can claim to be a women and be taken seriously, this will obviously be exploited by dangerous predators.

No-one is suggesting that trans people are predatory, but bad actors will exploit the system like Albert Cabellero who is in Saughton Prison for abducting and raping his female care worker, this person has asked to be called Claire and boasted to fellow inmates that he will be transferred to a female prison before he is released.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/29/un-nicola-sturgeon-common-sense-violent-sex-offenders-jail/

[Hibrandenburg]

What the Court of Session in Edinburgh? That's where it's going next.

Where will the case ultimately land IF the Court of Sessions waves through the Bill?

[Hibrandenburg]

Would you believe women would be denied same sex refuge centres or rape support or prison. I don't think you know what a gra is, it would be same sex care if a trans female was giving it to a biological female.

I've also no idea if trans females are in rape crisis centres or women's refuges right now. How would we know as they are seen as same sex. There is plenty of evidence to believe there is pretty much no female only spaces now. I'd never have believed a woman's refuge would have biological males in it before it came out this week

I believe if in the unlikely case that a woman was offered a transsexual carer and she refused it, then she would be offered alternative care.

[James310]

Where will the case ultimately land IF the Court of Sessions waves through the Bill?

Not sure what you mean, are you saying if the Court of Session "waves through" the Bill it's legal or not? Isn't it to do with the use of the S35 order and was that used correctly.

To ultimately end up in the Supreme Court the SG would need to lose in both the outer and inner court of session held in Edinburgh, the most senior law officer in Scotland is the Lord Advocate who sits in Nicola Sturgeons cabinet.

Why do you think the Court of Session in Edinburgh is a Tory government organ as you described? Even the Supreme Court ruled against the Government on Brexit not that long ago.

You know who else is a fan of saying courts are corrupt and biased, Donald Trump, he does it all the time.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-accuses-supreme-court-justices-bias-direct/story?id=69202950

Probably off topic though, so maybe belongs on another thread.

[Stairway 2 7]

I believe if in the unlikely case that a woman was offered a transsexual carer and she refused it, then she would be offered alternative care.

She would be offered same sex care, she will literally be a woman if the care provider chooses that. Many women who get care are non verbal also. Would you have believed a trans woman would have gone in a female refuge. It seems impossible but it comes out this week that it happens. Would you believe women could have rape crisis meetings with females only. That's also not happening. Some care providers are clearly choosing that trans females are literally women, Haldene ruling obviously furthers this

[Hibrandenburg]

She would be offered same sex care, she will literally be a woman if the care provider chooses that. Many women who get care are non verbal also. Would you have believed a trans woman would have gone in a female refuge. It seems impossible but it comes out this week that it happens. Would you believe women could have rape crisis meetings with females only. That's also not happening. Some care providers are clearly choosing that trans females are literally women, Haldene ruling obviously furthers this

My mother had what we thought was an irrational fear of one of her carers (it happens), we asked for another, no questions asked and we were provided with another. I think the same would happen if someone felt similar with a transgender woman.

You're argumentation about non verbal patients shines a bit of light on your prejudice, how do we know these patients aren't already terrified of the carers they have for whatever reason? Why are you only concerned about their transgender fear?

[ronaldo7]

My mother had what we thought was an irrational fear of one of her carers (it happens), we asked for another, no questions asked and we were provided with another. I think the same would happen if someone felt similar with a transgender woman.

You're argumentation about non verbal patients shines a bit of light on your prejudice, how do we know these patients aren't already terrified of the carers they have for whatever reason? Why are you only concerned about their transgender fear?

Thankfully I've only encountered the care service twice in the recent past. Both times the carers where changed when requested. Both male and female carers took it in their stride. It happens.

[Stairway 2 7]

My mother had what we thought was an irrational fear of one of her carers (it happens), we asked for another, no questions asked and we were provided with another. I think the same would happen if someone felt similar with a transgender woman.

You're argumentation about non verbal patients shines a bit of light on your prejudice, how do we know these patients aren't already terrified of the carers they have for whatever reason? Why are you only concerned about their transgender fear?

You'd think a trans female wouldn't be in a female refuge or rape support centre too, but companies are going with Haldane

My mum worked with severely disabled people since before I can remember, many are family friends. It's not prejudice it's protection. The non verbal clients get female care only as standard where she worked, this is important. I'm concerned as sexual assaults are committed by men simply. Trans females won't be more or less likely to commit assaults, but men are the ones that do.

If the care provider decides to go by the Haldane decision just like some female refuge providers, then it will be seen as female only care.

Female only care isn't the main issue it's one of a huge group of female spaces situations and rights that are being dismissed

[He's here!]

Niomi Cunningham an employment and discrimination lawyer explains to the women and equality committee why GRA will be a legal nightmare for small businesses to stop transfemales from from female only situations

https://mobile.twitter.com/treesey/status/1620460497069035520

@treesey
Brilliant from Naomi Cunningham speaking at
@Commonswomequ
explaining how self ID impacts small service providers - the refuge or the spray tanning salon

She sums up the difficulties very succinctly.

Meanwhile I see Sturgeon has now stated that women can be rapists.

[The Tubs]

I really don't understand a lot of the issues, but an extension of some of the arguments would be banning male anaesthetists from treating female patients. Does this already happen in the UK?

[The Tubs]

Further to my previous points, if you google "uk doctor rapes patients", you can see many cases. Do I misunderstand something?

[James310]

A further exchange today at FMQs which was somewhat odd. When asked about the rapist Isla Bryson Nicola Sturgeon said;

“This individual claims to be a woman.

“I don’t have information about whether those claims have validity.”

Isn't that the point of self ID, if someone says they are a woman then they are a woman.

With self ID how do you know if it's valid or not? There are zero checks.

[CropleyWasGod]

A further exchange today at FMQs which was somewhat odd. When asked about the rapist Isla Bryson Nicola Sturgeon said;

“This individual claims to be a woman.

“I don’t have information about whether those claims have validity.”

Isn't that the point of self ID, if someone says they are a woman then they are a woman.

With self ID how do you know if it's valid or not? There are zero checks.

We don't have self-ID yet.

[James310]

We don't have self-ID yet.

But she has in the past said a trans woman is a woman. Now she doesn't seem so sure. She also seems to think information should be available to see if a claim is valid or not, under self ID how do you check if a claim is valid of not?

[CropleyWasGod]

But she has in the past said a trans woman is a woman. Now she doesn't seem so sure. She also seems to think information should be available to see if a claim is valid or not, under self ID how do you check if a claim is valid of not?

That's the law as it stands.

Don't you like it? :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

That's the law as it stands.

Don't you like it? :greengrin

It's changing if they have their way if you say your female got literally are. I'm sure 90% wouldn't bother there arse if that applied to almost all situations bar some female reserved situations

[James310]

That's the law as it stands.

Don't you like it? :greengrin

I think you know I am talking about what would happen under self ID, that's pretty clear.

I am guessing there is no clear answer then, there would very likely be no information to check if it was valid or not.

This goes back to a comment made yesterday when someone said a "legitimate" trans person, how is a legitimate trans person identified versus a non legitimate trans person when it's all done via self ID.

[ronaldo7]

I thought I heard the FM saying today that under the EA that trans women don't automatically get access to women's only spaces as there are exemptions, even those with a GRC.

The EA is on the face of the proposed GRRA

Did I hear correctly?

[James310]

I thought I heard the FM saying today that under the EA that trans women don't automatically get access to women's only spaces as there are exemptions, even those with a GRC.

The EA is on the face of the proposed GRRA

Did I hear correctly?

That's probably still to be tested in court especially in light of the Haldane ruling. That's my understanding. Hence the concern there wasn't the time taken to consider this ruling and the impact it may have.

[ronaldo7]

That's probably still to be tested in court especially in light of the Haldane ruling. That's my understanding. Hence the concern there wasn't the time taken to consider this ruling and the impact it may have.

Does the EA not have primacy?

It was put on the face of the bill in an amendment.

[James310]

Does the EA not have primacy?

It was put on the face of the bill in an amendment.

Just because it's in the Bill doesn't make it true.

[ronaldo7]

Just because it's in the Bill doesn't make it true.

Are you saying the EA isn't actually law then?

[Hibrandenburg]

I really don't understand a lot of the issues, but an extension of some of the arguments would be banning male anaesthetists from treating female patients. Does this already happen in the UK?

I think you understand the ridiculousness of the whole anti-trans debate quite well. Apparently it's only men who pretend to be trans-female that are a danger to vulnerable women needing care.

[Stairway 2 7]

I thought I heard the FM saying today that under the EA that trans women don't automatically get access to women's only spaces as there are exemptions, even those with a GRC.

The EA is on the face of the proposed GRRA

Did I hear correctly?

You'd think so but some providers are going by the Haldene. You'd think a female refuge would be clearly protected as female only.

[James310]

Are you saying the EA isn't actually law then?

No, where did you get that from?

I am saying just because the GRA Bill says it doesn't impact the EA doesn't make it true.

[ronaldo7]

You'd think so but some providers are going by the Haldene. You'd think a female refuge would be clearly protected as female only.

Is this not where the equality commission comes in with guidance?

[ronaldo7]

No, where did you get that from?

I am saying just because the GRA Bill says it doesn't impact the EA doesn't make it true.

Does the EA have primacy on the bill?