Thoughts on the manager

[He's here!]

it's like he's learning on the job, that simply is not something we should be expecting from a coach, especially one who had been hired after 2 failed appointemnts.

Don't all managers, no matter how experienced (or indeed people who work in pretty much any job), learn on the job?

[bingo70]

Exactly. Would be nuts to bin him just when he’s coming good. If the board have any sense that won’t happen. Next November is the time to look at the results and performances - unless the opening of next season is a winless disaster of a start.

If he continues the good run, we’ll probably make top 6 and equally a decent chance we could get Europe, if he does that then he likely won’t have anything to worry about. If we don’t win the next two games we won’t be near the top of the form guide so I think it’d be hard to argue he’s come good.

He won’t get sacked before the split so I think he’s still got time on his side, if we don’t make top 6 now then he’ll certainly be in bother and it’d be hard to argue a case for him.

I think it could still go either way.

[babahibs]

Don't all managers, no matter how experienced (or indeed people who work in pretty much any job), learn on the job?

Correct, every day should be a school day

[Cabbage-Patch]

I can't help but keep thinking, if it wasn't far VAR and poor refereeing we could potentially be 4th right now. How much is that NM fault

No sorry I don't buy into that. Granted we have been done over by a few decisions but the in game management at times this season has been shocking. How many times have we thrown away points from winning positions. Far too easy to blame the refs/VAR.

[allezsauzee]

I'm not sure I would agree that Monty is coming good. It would be disappointing not to see some improvement in results when you throw in some players of the quality of Emiliano and Myziane as well as other players coming back from playing with their countries/injuries.

I think he'll end up like Pat Fenlon who worked wonders at a lower level of football but got found out when stepping up. McInnes as a replacement in the summer please.

[Iain G]

I'm not sure I would agree that Monty is coming good. It would be disappointing not to see some improvement in results when you throw in some players of the quality of Emiliano and Myziane as well as other players coming back from playing with their countries/injuries.

I think he'll end up like Pat Fenlon who worked wonders at a lower level of football but got found out when stepping up. McInnes as a replacement in the summer please.

Not for me, if we decide to get rid of NM, and I hope we don't and give him time, then we should be doing so with a plan to be aiming at a higher level than McInnes.

[Donegal Hibby]

I can't help but keep thinking, if it wasn't far VAR and poor refereeing we could potentially be 4th right now. How much is that NM fault

I have too , some of the decisions in our games have been shocking. Nothing any manager can do about that .

[allezsauzee]

Not for me, if we decide to get rid of NM, and I hope we don't and give him time, then we should be doing so with a plan to be aiming at a higher level than McInnes.

How does McInnes's record stack up against successive Hibs managers since he took the reins at Aberdeen in 2013? He had them in 2nd place on 4 occassions and never lower than fourth in 7 seasons. He's also got a Killie side with a fraction of the financial resources that we have into 4th and very likely to qualify for Europe. I'd say it's more likely that McInnes is the one who should be aiming higher!

[Alfred E Newman]

Only the OF have a better record than us over the last 6 league games. You would assume that the manager is part of the reason for that.

I would agree, yet frustratingly ,all we appear to have done in that time is consolidate 7th place.

[JohnM1875]

Not for me, if we decide to get rid of NM, and I hope we don't and give him time, then we should be doing so with a plan to be aiming at a higher level than McInnes.

If NM gets punted I hope we give it to McInnes just so folk finally shut up about him.

[007]

How does McInnes's record stack up against successive Hibs managers since he took the reins at Aberdeen in 2013? He had them in 2nd place on 4 occassions and never lower than fourth in 7 seasons. He's also got a Killie side with a fraction of the financial resources that we have into 4th and very likely to qualify for Europe. I'd say it's more likely that McInnes is the one who should be aiming higher!

He was 1 place ahead of budget twice, level with budget twice and 1 place behind budget 4 times (if you count the season we finished 3rd when he left with 6 games to go and we were 3 points ahead of Aberdeen with a game in hand).

2 of his 2nd places were when he had the 2nd biggest budget in the league, the other season he had the 2nd biggest budget he finished 3rd behind Motherwell. 4th 3 times with the 3rd biggest budget.

He needed time to get Killie to where there are now. Has had 5 transfer windows. Was lucky to avoid relegation playoff spot on the last day of the season last season. Might not have been so lucky without the big advantage of the plastic pitch where they got 80% of their points at home.

[Hibees1973]

Ross was far more accomplished in interviews than Monty IMO.

He was.

I liked Jack Ross. Reckon he was shafted by Ian Gordon & Kensell who didn't back him properly after we came third in the league. To the point where he had to play MacGregor over in Rijeka. Mathie took a load of flak as well, but Ian Gordon was manoeuvring himself into the Head of Recruitment position at the time. That went well.

It must be said though that after time most managers do grate. Almost all of them do. Remember a favoured Jack Ross phrase was 'fine margins'. I even heard David Moyes say it the other night.

Don't think Montgomery has a phrase yet. Nothing I can recall so far anyway. It was probably a wise that the SPFL over ruled the gimmick when he was going to get mic'd up for the derby at new year. Nothing good would have come out of that.

[LaMotta]

Prefer Montys green zip necked sweater though 😂

:hilarious


He was.

I liked Jack Ross. Reckon he was shafted by Ian Gordon & Kensell who didn't back him properly after we came third in the league. To the point where he had to play MacGregor over in Rijeka. Mathie took a load of flak as well, but Ian Gordon was manoeuvring himself into the Head of Recruitment position at the time. That went well.

It must be said though that after time most managers do grate. Almost all of them do. Remember a favoured Jack Ross phrase was 'fine margins'. I even heard David Moyes say it the other night.

Don't think Montgomery has a phrase yet. Nothing I can recall so far anyway. It was probably a wise that the SPFL over ruled the gimmick when he was going to get mic'd up for the derby at new year. Nothing good would have come out of that.

Agree with all that. Since social media became a big thing I can't actually remember a Hibs manager that hasn't got it tight for their interviews at some point. Maybe Stubbs got the least criticism from memory.

[Donegal Hibby]

When McInnes got Killie promoted they only finished something like 2 points ahead of Arbroath who probably had a lot smaller budget. In their first year back Killie finished 10th just 6 points ahead of Ross County in the relegation play off position. He was of course given time over 4 or so transfer windows to improve them . Which is what most managers need in fairness . His teams still play a horrible style of football though.

[Unseen work]

He was.

I liked Jack Ross. Reckon he was shafted by Ian Gordon & Kensell who didn't back him properly after we came third in the league. To the point where he had to play MacGregor over in Rijeka. Mathie took a load of flak as well, but Ian Gordon was manoeuvring himself into the Head of Recruitment position at the time. That went well.

It must be said though that after time most managers do grate. Almost all of them do. Remember a favoured Jack Ross phrase was 'fine margins'. I even heard David Moyes say it the other night.

Don't think Montgomery has a phrase yet. Nothing I can recall so far anyway. It was probably a wise that the SPFL over ruled the gimmick when he was going to get mic'd up for the derby at new year. Nothing good would have come out of that.

This isn’t me having a go at Montgomery as I don’t really care how managers speak, but he 100% does have a couple of go to phrases

“What we can’t/wont do is…”
“What we can/will do is….”

[Viva_Palmeiras]

This isn’t me having a go at Montgomery as I don’t really care how managers speak, but he 100% does have a couple of go to phrases

“What we can’t/wont do is…”
“What we can/wont do is….”

well yeah ;)

[PHeffernan]

He was.

I liked Jack Ross. Reckon he was shafted by Ian Gordon & Kensell who didn't back him properly after we came third in the league. To the point where he had to play MacGregor over in Rijeka. Mathie took a load of flak as well, but Ian Gordon was manoeuvring himself into the Head of Recruitment position at the time. That went well.

It must be said though that after time most managers do grate. Almost all of them do. Remember a favoured Jack Ross phrase was 'fine margins'. I even heard David Moyes say it the other night.

Don't think Montgomery has a phrase yet. Nothing I can recall so far anyway. It was probably a wise that the SPFL over ruled the gimmick when he was going to get mic'd up for the derby at new year. Nothing good would have come out of that.

I've never stayed awake long enough to notice.
He has been doing fine on the football front since the St Mirren game but his tedious cliche bingo interviews are to be avoided.
All we want to know is who is returning from injury, who is injured and when does he think they will return.
The rest is just a media trained saying nothing borefest.

[LaMotta]

This isn’t me having a go at Montgomery as I don’t really care how managers speak, but he 100% does have a couple of go to phrases

“What we can’t/wont do is…”
“What we can/wont do is….”


well yeah ;)

He's defo picked up the Australian trait of an upward inflection at the end of sentences/phrases - which doesn't always sound convincing to people over here according to the linguistic experts.....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/14/speaking-like-an-aussie-insecure-australian-upward-inflection

[PHeffernan]

When McInnes got Killie promoted they only finished something like 2 points ahead of Arbroath who probably had a lot smaller budget. In their first year back Killie finished 10th just 6 points ahead of Ross County in the relegation play off position. He was of course given time over 4 or so transfer windows to improve them . Which is what most managers need in fairness . His teams still play a horrible style of football though.

The Killie team McInnes inherited was guff and he had to use the same duffers in his first season in the top tier. Survival was an achievement.
Last summer the duffers left at the end of their contracts and were replaced by good quality players.
He is a pragmatist and gets the best results with the players at his disposal which is something Monty was failing miserably with until after the St Mirren game.

[snedzuk]

When McInnes got Killie promoted they only finished something like 2 points ahead of Arbroath who probably had a lot smaller budget. In their first year back Killie finished 10th just 6 points ahead of Ross County in the relegation play off position. He was of course given time over 4 or so transfer windows to improve them . Which is what most managers need in fairness . His teams still play a
horrible style of football though.

A horrible style that's seven points clear of us with victories against both halves of the cheeks this season.

[Donegal Hibby]

A horrible style that's seven points clear of us with victories against both halves of the cheeks this season.

Their also 12 or so points ahead of Aberdeen though a lot of their fans wouldn't want him back simply because of the football which they often describe as hoofball . The Aberdeen v Killie quarter final game was a classic example of this too.

[basehibby]

He was 1 place ahead of budget twice, level with budget twice and 1 place behind budget 4 times (if you count the season we finished 3rd when he left with 6 games to go and we were 3 points ahead of Aberdeen with a game in hand).

2 of his 2nd places were when he had the 2nd biggest budget in the league, the other season he had the 2nd biggest budget he finished 3rd behind Motherwell. 4th 3 times with the 3rd biggest budget.

He needed time to get Killie to where there are now. Has had 5 transfer windows. Was lucky to avoid relegation playoff spot on the last day of the season last season. Might not have been so lucky without the big advantage of the plastic pitch where they got 80% of their points at home.

Even though you are taking a critical tack here, McKinnes's record still looks pretty decent. As many Hibs managers have demonstrated in history, achieving parity of performance with a team's relative budget - or even one place off it with any regularity - is no easy feat.

With that in mind, I think it's still early days for Monty and I've been encouraged by our recent performances - hopefully top 6 can be achieved and we'll see another interesting test of Monty vs McKinnes before this season is out

[allezsauzee]

Their also 12 or so points ahead of Aberdeen though a lot of their fans wouldn't want him back simply because of the football which they often describe as hoofball . The Aberdeen v Killie quarter final game was a classic example of this too.

Aberdeen fans think that they should have another Fergie to come in and guide them to titles and European glory again though. I don't think they got rid of him for playing style, it was because 4th had become unacceptable to them after being runners up for 4 seasons. After 4/5 seasons of backing then sacking managers and an ability to recognise/address our lack of a solid spine, I think we could with a pragmatic manager at the helm to give us some direction, otherwise we'll fritter away Foley's money.

[Unseen work]

He was 1 place ahead of budget twice, level with budget twice and 1 place behind budget 4 times (if you count the season we finished 3rd when he left with 6 games to go and we were 3 points ahead of Aberdeen with a game in hand).

2 of his 2nd places were when he had the 2nd biggest budget in the league, the other season he had the 2nd biggest budget he finished 3rd behind Motherwell. 4th 3 times with the 3rd biggest budget.

He needed time to get Killie to where there are now. Has had 5 transfer windows. Was lucky to avoid relegation playoff spot on the last day of the season last season. Might not have been so lucky without the big advantage of the plastic pitch where they got 80% of their points at home.

I would say finishing in line with your budget or even just one place ahead of it is actually successful and quite often rare.

Especially when you consider the only team that had a bigger budget was Celtic and theirs is multiple times bigger.

If we finished 5th for about four seasons in a row with the odd 4th position here and there that would probably be our most consistent league positions in a long long time.

Even thinking if we were in Aberdeens position with the second highest budget to Celtic, I still wouldn’t bank on us coming second.

Hes a good manager and has shown it time and time again, no matter what stats etc people try use against him.

[Iain G]

If NM gets punted I hope we give it to McInnes just so folk finally shut up about him.

And it will nice to be in the I told you so camp 6 weeks into his tenure when we start calling for his head 😁

[Since452]

He was.

I liked Jack Ross. Reckon he was shafted by Ian Gordon & Kensell who didn't back him properly after we came third in the league. To the point where he had to play MacGregor over in Rijeka. Mathie took a load of flak as well, but Ian Gordon was manoeuvring himself into the Head of Recruitment position at the time. That went well.

It must be said though that after time most managers do grate. Almost all of them do. Remember a favoured Jack Ross phrase was 'fine margins'. I even heard David Moyes say it the other night.

Don't think Montgomery has a phrase yet. Nothing I can recall so far anyway. It was probably a wise that the SPFL over ruled the gimmick when he was going to get mic'd up for the derby at new year. Nothing good would have come out of that.

Ross was very eloquent in interviews. I enjoyed listening to him. There were a couple of tactical podcast things with him that were a great listen. He's the last Hibs manager I could stomach listening to. Probably one of the reasons the players liked him. Clear instructions.

[Yorkshire HFC]

Aberdeen fans think that they should have another Fergie to come in and guide them to titles and European glory again though. I don't think they got rid of him for playing style, it was because 4th had become unacceptable to them after being runners up for 4 seasons. After 4/5 seasons of backing then sacking managers and an ability to recognise/address our lack of a solid spine, I think we could with a pragmatic manager at the helm to give us some direction, otherwise we'll fritter away Foley's money.

I read something the other day that was written 30 years ago - "in the future, fans will see every defeat as failure. Hardcore fans as we know them today, who are the backbone of the club, won't exist".

The person who wrote that knew his stuff - the fan of today is different from the fan of yesterday - football is different from what it was 30 years ago. TV and the internet have changed things - I guess it's called progress.

But would Aberdeen be in their current position if they had kept McInnes?

Would Hibs have been better if they had kept Jack Ross?

I see that some Scotland fans are even wanting rid of Steve Clarke.

That is how the new fan and owner thinks - short term. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But I'd like to see some long term planning at Hibs - stick with the manager, stop filling the team with loan signings, get involved in the community - stop worrying about pr.

[Brightside]

A horrible style that's seven points clear of us with victories against both halves of the cheeks this season.

If we played that way the site would be full of people complaining about it. Any manager of Hibs is up against it with a fan base that "demands" a certain quality of football but with results also. Next season we may get closer to that.

[bingo70]

Ross was very eloquent in interviews. I enjoyed listening to him. There were a couple of tactical podcast things with him that were a great listen. He's the last Hibs manager I could stomach listening to. Probably one of the reasons the players liked him. Clear instructions.

Wonder if he became unclear in the last 14 matches when they downed tools for him then? 😉

It’s a well trodden argument but it’s a fairly subjective thing when it comes to liking managers interviews, I found him mind numbingly boring and spoke like a textbook.

The last manager I really enjoyed listening to was Neil Lennon, for all his faults and I’m not saying I want him back, I thought he was relatable and his emotions generally matched mine. Would have been interesting to hear Lennons thoughts on the refereeing decisions going against us this season if he was the manager, I don’t think he would have been as diplomatic as Montgomery has been.

[Bobby's Cinema]

He was 1 place ahead of budget twice, level with budget twice and 1 place behind budget 4 times (if you count the season we finished 3rd when he left with 6 games to go and we were 3 points ahead of Aberdeen with a game in hand).

2 of his 2nd places were when he had the 2nd biggest budget in the league, the other season he had the 2nd biggest budget he finished 3rd behind Motherwell. 4th 3 times with the 3rd biggest budget.

He needed time to get Killie to where there are now. Has had 5 transfer windows. Was lucky to avoid relegation playoff spot on the last day of the season last season. Might not have been so lucky without the big advantage of the plastic pitch where they got 80% of their points at home.
:greengrin This just goes to show you can view the stats which ever way you like to suit your view.

Aberdeen had the 3rd/4th biggest budget this season, with the european money that supposedly will transform any team finishing third into automatic best of the rest ahead of the pack for years and look where they are.

He would be my number one realistic candidate by a mile. And has been for the last three appointments.

[Since452]

Wonder if he became unclear in the last 14 matches when they downed tools for him then? ��

It’s a well trodden argument but it’s a fairly subjective thing when it comes to liking managers interviews, I found him mind numbingly boring and spoke like a textbook.

The last manager I really enjoyed listening to was Neil Lennon, for all his faults and I’m not saying I want him back, I thought he was relatable and his emotions generally matched mine. Would have been interesting to hear Lennons thoughts on the refereeing decisions going against us this season if he was the manager, I don’t think he would have been as diplomatic as Montgomery has been.

That was a terrible run that get managers sacked but there were mitigating circumstances. Covid riddled squad and the resulting fixture congestion etc. Also remember Boyle's awful penalty at Livi. I agree about Lennon. He wore his heart on his sleeve and i often didn't agree with what he said, particularly after Tynecastle, but it was always entertaining! When he was level headed he was always a good listen.

[Bobby's Cinema]

Ross was very eloquent in interviews. I enjoyed listening to him. There were a couple of tactical podcast things with him that were a great listen. He's the last Hibs manager I could stomach listening to. Probably one of the reasons the players liked him. Clear instructions.
Last Hibs manager I actively listened to interviews was Lennon.

[Donegal Hibby]

Last Hibs manager I actively listened to interviews was Lennon.

I was the opposite , just couldn't be bothered listening to him going on about Celtic when he was our manager.

[Brightside]

Last Hibs manager I actively listened to interviews was Lennon.

Great for soundbites which I get some fans like. I'd be more likely to switch him off.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Wonder if he became unclear in the last 14 matches when they downed tools for him then? 😉

It’s a well trodden argument but it’s a fairly subjective thing when it comes to liking managers interviews, I found him mind numbingly boring and spoke like a textbook.

The last manager I really enjoyed listening to was Neil Lennon, for all his faults and I’m not saying I want him back, I thought he was relatable and his emotions generally matched mine. Would have been interesting to hear Lennons thoughts on the refereeing decisions going against us this season if he was the manager, I don’t think he would have been as diplomatic as Montgomery has been.

From my own point of view I genuinely couldn’t care less what any of them have to say. What happens on the park is the only thing of interest to me and I couldn’t care less what they’ve got to say about it or how they pronounce certain words etc.

Come to think of it, I can’t remember the last time I listened to an interview with a player or manager.

[Donegal Hibby]

Aberdeen fans think that they should have another Fergie to come in and guide them to titles and European glory again though. I don't think they got rid of him for playing style, it was because 4th had become unacceptable to them after being runners up for 4 seasons. After 4/5 seasons of backing then sacking managers and an ability to recognise/address our lack of a solid spine, I think we could with a pragmatic manager at the helm to give us some direction, otherwise we'll fritter away Foley's money.

His style of football at Aberdeen inevitably lead to him getting sacked especially when it started to go wrong like the run of only winning two games out of ten while only scoring ONE goal .

As I said the quarter final against Aberdeen is a classic example of his teams style of football . Imo it's horrible to watch and I wouldn't want it just as a lot of Aberdeen fans don't want it back either .

We are also talking about a manager that needed 3 to 4 windows at his current club , our manager has had only one . Maybe we should show the same patience as the Killie fans with our one , no? .

There's nothing to suggest that Monty would fritter away Foley's money , our signings have mainly been good under Monty have they not ? .

[Paulie Walnuts]

His style of football at Aberdeen inevitably lead to him getting sacked especially when it started to go wrong like the run of only winning two games out of ten while only scoring ONE goal .

As I said the quarter final against Aberdeen is a classic example of his teams style of football . Imo it's horrible to watch and I wouldn't want it just as a lot of Aberdeen fans don't want it back either .

We are also talking about a manager that needed 3 to 4 windows at his current club , our manager has had only one . Maybe we should show the same patience as the Killie fans with our one , no? .

There's nothing to suggest that Monty would fritter away Foley's money , our signings have mainly been good under Monty have they not ? .

He didn’t need 3 or 4 windows and there didn’t need to be ‘patience shown’ with McInnes at Kilmarnock. He took over in 4th in the Championship in January, mid window and within 3 and a half months he’d won them the league and promotion. He then consolidated their place in the league above the next season, keeping them up by 6 points and now has them in 4th place in that league. It’s been continuous improvement and constantly hitting/exceeding targets. There’s been no need to show patience as he’s done an absolutely excellent job from the minute he walked in the door.

If Montgomery had come in, done an unarguable good job from the off, then went on to consolidate that good job the next season and then started exceeding our targets then he’d be lauded as well. He’s not done that though.

[JimBHibees]

Great for soundbites which I get some fans like. I'd be more likely to switch him off.

Agree. Personally it is a lot of the same chat however always like to listen to what they say and their opinions on games both before and after. Usually so that you feel that you have watched the same game and highlight areas we have not been great in or done well in. Appreciate it is formulaic to a degree but still like to hear it.

[JimBHibees]

Wonder if he became unclear in the last 14 matches when they downed tools for him then? 😉

It’s a well trodden argument but it’s a fairly subjective thing when it comes to liking managers interviews, I found him mind numbingly boring and spoke like a textbook.

The last manager I really enjoyed listening to was Neil Lennon, for all his faults and I’m not saying I want him back, I thought he was relatable and his emotions generally matched mine. Would have been interesting to hear Lennons thoughts on the refereeing decisions going against us this season if he was the manager, I don’t think he would have been as diplomatic as Montgomery has been.

Lennon definitely wouldn't have been either to the internal Hibs tv or to the wider journalists and to be honest really wish Montgomery had been more outspoken about this. You get the impression he is inhibited probably by the club highlighting what can happen to him however personally feel it is important he communicates to fans as much as anyone his anger at some of the obvious unfairness we have been on the end of.

[The Modfather]

I’d be sad to see Montgomery go on a personal level as he is likeable. However wouldn’t lose much sleep from a footballing perspective.

I still maintain it’s the squad that is the issue. We’ve got a good and competitive starting 11 and maybe a squad of 12 or 13 who can contribute. When we have to turn to the likes of Jair, Levitt, Hanlon, Stevenson, Campbell etc we quickly drop back into a bottom 6 team.

We’ve got around 15 players either making up the numbers or taking a wage for no contribution. Quantity over quality as a result of the last 3 or 4 windows.

Wollacot
Harbottle
JDH
Delfierre
Levitt
Tavares
Hanlon
Stevenson
Campbell
Mclelland
Mayenda
Henderson
Mackay
Kenneh
Mckirdy

[Billy Whizz]

I’d be sad to see Montgomery go on a personal level as he is likeable. However wouldn’t lose much sleep from a footballing perspective.

I still maintain it’s the squad that is the issue. We’ve got a good and competitive starting 11 and maybe a squad of 12 or 13 who can contribute. When we have to turn to the likes of Jair, Levitt, Hanlon, Stevenson, Campbell etc we quickly drop back into a bottom 6 team.

We’ve got around 15 players either making up the numbers or taking a wage for no contribution. Quantity over quality as a result of the last 3 or 4 windows.

Wollacot
Harbottle
JDH
Delfierre
Levitt
Tavares
Hanlon
Stevenson
Campbell
Mclelland
Mayenda
Henderson
Mackay
Kenneh
Mckirdy
Tait


That’s a fortune in wages, but thankfully some are out on loan
Campbell a bit unfair to include as he’s been injured
Stevenson and Hanlon not playing isn’t their choice

I’ve added Tait to your list

[B.H.F.C]

I’d be sad to see Montgomery go on a personal level as he is likeable. However wouldn’t lose much sleep from a footballing perspective.

I still maintain it’s the squad that is the issue. We’ve got a good and competitive starting 11 and maybe a squad of 12 or 13 who can contribute. When we have to turn to the likes of Jair, Levitt, Hanlon, Stevenson, Campbell etc we quickly drop back into a bottom 6 team.

We’ve got around 15 players either making up the numbers or taking a wage for no contribution. Quantity over quality as a result of the last 3 or 4 windows.

Wollacot
Harbottle
JDH
Delfierre
Levitt
Tavares
Hanlon
Stevenson
Campbell
Mclelland
Mayenda
Henderson
Mackay
Kenneh
Mckirdy

Agree with that. Post January, we have a decent 11. Drops off if that changes though and we slip back to where we were.

We’ve suffered all season for not addressing the defence. No matter the shape, no a matter the personnel, we’ve conceded the same type of goal all season. The 2-2 draws have killed us.

I think there is a fair bit of mitigation for Montgomery and I think he’s been unlucky with certain circumstances. Equally, I don’t think he’s helped himself at times, as recently as Saturday. I hope he can secure top six which I think would lead to us getting Europe and we can build from there.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I’d be sad to see Montgomery go on a personal level as he is likeable. However wouldn’t lose much sleep from a footballing perspective.

I still maintain it’s the squad that is the issue. We’ve got a good and competitive starting 11 and maybe a squad of 12 or 13 who can contribute. When we have to turn to the likes of Jair, Levitt, Hanlon, Stevenson, Campbell etc we quickly drop back into a bottom 6 team.

We’ve got around 15 players either making up the numbers or taking a wage for no contribution. Quantity over quality as a result of the last 3 or 4 windows.

Wollacot
Harbottle
JDH
Delfierre
Levitt
Tavares
Hanlon
Stevenson
Campbell
Mclelland
Mayenda
Henderson
Mackay
Kenneh
Mckirdy

You say we become a bottom 6 team once we start getting outwith our best 13 or so players, but that doesn’t factor in the fact that bottom 6 sides also have to use players who aren’t in their best 12 or 13 every week as well.

Out of those players listed, are we really claiming that Dundee, Ross County, St Johnstone have squad/bench players that are better than guys like Wollacott, Levitt, Hanlon, Stevenson, Campbell etc? I’ll admit I don’t know all that much about their squads, but I’d be astonished if they did.

If we had to line up with:

Wollacott

Miller
Fish
Hanlon
Stevenson

Levitt
Newell

Boyle
Campbell
Maolida

ALF

I’d still say that should be a stronger side than any of the bottom 6 teams are at full strength and that’s got nearly half a team of players included in your list. It’s missing our best goalkeeper, our two best full backs, arguably our best centre half, arguably our best centre mid in NMW, our star loan player from the EPL, our most productive attacking player in Youan etc. Start to consider that they’ll likely also never be at complete full strength and I’m not sure our squad is in any way bottom 6 standard unless we start getting into the realms of us having nearly a whole team out whilst they are at absolute full strength. And I’d suggest that will always be the case that we’d be in the bottom half of the league if that scenario was to come to pass, as it would be with Hearts or Aberdeen or anyone else.

[The Modfather]

You say we become a bottom 6 team once we start getting outwith our best 13 or so players, but that doesn’t factor in the fact that bottom 6 sides also have to use players who aren’t in their best 12 or 13 every week as well.

Out of those players listed, are we really claiming that Dundee, Ross County, St Johnstone have squad/bench players that are better than guys like Wollacott, Levitt, Hanlon, Stevenson, Campbell etc? I’ll admit I don’t know all that much about their squads, but I’d be astonished if they did.

I’m not sure I understand the point you’re arguing.

Owe have a squad of about 12/13/14 players (post January window) who are good enough to be competitive for 3rd/4th/5th over a season IMO. The more we have to play from the rest of the squad the more we become less than the sum of our parts and just another bog standard bottom 6 side IMO.

Edit - I replied before you expanded on your post. A midfield three of Levitt, Newell & Campbell might even achieve the impossible and be a downgrade on the infamous JDH, Newell & Campbell midfield.

[Donegal Hibby]

He didn’t need 3 or 4 windows and there didn’t need to be ‘patience shown’ with McInnes at Kilmarnock. He took over in 4th in the Championship in January, mid window and within 3 and a half months he’d won them the league and promotion. He then consolidated their place in the league above the next season, keeping them up by 6 points and now has them in 4th place in that league. It’s been continuous improvement and constantly hitting/exceeding targets. There’s been no need to show patience as he’s done an absolutely excellent job from the minute he walked in the door.

If Montgomery had come in, done an unarguable good job from the off, then went on to consolidate that good job the next season and then started exceeding our targets then he’d be lauded as well. He’s not done that though.

The promotion McInnes won he just narrowly pipped Arbroath by 2 points which probably showed the standard of the championship that season.

He then came up with Killie and struggled after having a full summer window and a pre-season to prepare which the current Hibs manager hasn't had . He finished behind Livvy who had a much smaller budget , possibly St Johnstone too . I read the Killie forum on his first year back and they weren't exactly chuffed about him that year either.

The following year after another pre-season and summer window he has improved them . Again I will say this our manager has had only one transfer window and no pre -season. Every manager needs time at a club especially one that's seen it's last 3 managers go because it's been struggling .

Our form since the new signings have settled in and got up to speed has been good , 3 wins , 3 draws and 2 defeats both to the old firm. Imo we've improved . Scoring 14 with 11 conceded . Our goals for / against was very much effected by decisions that were wrong in being given either against us or not given for us which also had / may had a bearing on our points tally too.

At Aberdeen before he left he won 2 out of 10 games while only scoring 1 goal in that time while playing some really awful football . Willie Miller at the time even stated we just don't create enough chances in games . He is doing well now though the style of football his teams play imo is horrible .I hope McInnes never gets anywhere the hibs job personally.

[Jim44]

That’s a fortune in wages, but thankfully some are out on loan
Campbell a bit unfair to include as he’s been injured
Stevenson and Hanlon not playing isn’t their choice

I’ve added Tait to your list

I thought the lending club paid most if not all of the wages.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I’m not sure I understand the point you’re arguing.

Owe have a squad of about 12/13/14 players (post January window) who are good enough to be competitive for 3rd/4th/5th over a season IMO. The more we have to play from the rest of the squad the more we become less than the sum of our parts and just another bog standard bottom 6 side IMO.

Edit - I replied before you expanded on your post. A midfield three of Levitt, Newell & Campbell might even achieve the impossible and be a downgrade on the infamous JDH, Newell & Campbell midfield.

My point is that it’s not really comparing like for like when you’re using guys who are subs/come in to replace injured players etc with starters for other teams.

If we become a bottom 6 squad once you factor in injuries/suspensions etc then you also have to factor these things in for the other teams. That then puts our squad back into being a top 6 squad imo. Our squad could only ever be considered a bottom 6 squad if you look at absolute worse case scenario type stuff for us (basically missing all our best players) whilsy comparing all the bottom 6 teams just constantly playing their best 11, which is never going to be the case.

Our starting 11 is better than bottom 6 starting 11. The remainder of our squad is better than the remainder of a bottom 6 squad and I’d argue a good few of them are better than a lot of bottom 6 starters. That makes a top 6 squad imo.

[Paulie Walnuts]

The promotion McInnes won he just narrowly pipped Arbroath by 2 points which probably showed the standard of the championship that season.

He then came up with Killie and struggled after having a full summer window and a pre-season to prepare which the current Hibs manager hasn't had . He finished behind Livvy who had a much smaller budget , possibly St Johnstone too . I read the Killie forum on his first year back and they weren't exactly chuffed about him that year either.

The following year after another pre-season and summer window he has improved them . Again I will say this our manager has had only one transfer window and no pre -season. Every manager needs time at a club especially one that's seen it's last 3 managers go because it's been struggling .

Our form since the new signings have settled in and got up to speed has been good , 3 wins , 3 draws and 2 defeats both to the old firm. Imo we've improved . Scoring 14 with 11 conceded . Our goals for / against was very much effected by decisions that were wrong in being given either against us or not given for us which also had / may had a bearing on our points tally too.

At Aberdeen before he left he won 2 out of 10 games while only scoring 1 goal in that time while playing some really awful football . Willie Miller at the time even stated we just don't create enough chances in games . He is doing well now though the style of football his teams play imo is horrible .I hope McInnes never gets anywhere the hibs job personally.

They didn’t really just pip them though. They won it with a game to spare. Considering they were 4th when he came in 3 months prior it’s simply rewriting history to make out like he struggled through his first year and a half at Kilmarnock. He came straight in and outperformed 3 sides who had outperformed them prior to him coming in and won the league with a game to spare. That’s pretty good going. He then kept them up by 6 points as a newly promoted side. Again, that’s pretty good going.

You’re talking about Killie as if they have one of the biggest budgets in the league. They were a newly promoted side, who don’t have all that exciting a budget, who ended up staying up by a decent margin. That’s not struggling, that’s a very good season consolidating yourself in a league after promotion.

[The Modfather]

My point is that it’s not really comparing like for like when you’re using guys who are subs/come in to replace injured players etc with starters for other teams.

If we become a bottom 6 squad once you factor in injuries/suspensions etc then you also have to factor these things in for the other teams. That then puts our squad back into being a top 6 squad imo. Our squad could only ever be considered a bottom 6 squad if you look at absolute worse case scenario type stuff for us (basically missing all our best players) whilsy comparing all the bottom 6 teams just constantly play their best 11, which is never going to be the case.

Our starting 11 is better than bottom 6. Our bench is better than a bottom 6 bench. That makes a top 6 squad imo.

I agree that our first 11 (post January) is top 6. I think it’s competitive over a season for 3rd/4th/5th. I disagree on our bench/wider squad though. On paper,Individually, it’s probably a favourable comparison on a 1 v 1 basis with other squads. In reality those players make us less than the sum of the teams parts IMO.

We can agree to disagree.

[Smartie]

I’m not sure I understand the point you’re arguing.

Owe have a squad of about 12/13/14 players (post January window) who are good enough to be competitive for 3rd/4th/5th over a season IMO. The more we have to play from the rest of the squad the more we become less than the sum of our parts and just another bog standard bottom 6 side IMO.

Edit - I replied before you expanded on your post. A midfield three of Levitt, Newell & Campbell might even achieve the impossible and be a downgrade on the infamous JDH, Newell & Campbell midfield.

Levitt, Newell and Campbell is a relegation midfield.

You might get away with Levitt or Campbell being a bit part player with good players alongside but the pair of them together with Newell would be minging.

None of this is a criticism of Newell btw - we've seen how good he can be with the right players around him and like almost anyone else, struggle when he's hung out to dry with no support.


As it stands, the squad for next season is pitiful. Lots of work to be done if it's to be remotely competitive for 3rd, a fair bit if it's to be top 6. As it stands, the players we have contracted for next season would be lucky to avoid a relegation battle which was pretty much the form they were putting in from Monty's mini-bounce through to the end of January. We looked atrocious before the arrivals came at the end of January - arrivals who have been excellent for us and transformed us into a much better looking side. Arrivals also whose quality we'll be lucky to find again this summer.

[worcesterhibby]

We have tried chopping and changimg managers every time we have a bad patch and it has just made us worse. No matter how you look at it, it's taken McInnes two full pre-seasons and 3 transfer windows to get Killi playing ugly but effective football and getting them into the top 6. It's about time we stuck with a manager and did the same. Unless our new money can get us Unai Emery or Xabi Alonso I suggest we give the current manager an extended run and see where it takes us. I doubt we will make top six this year and that is very, very dissapointing, but I think we need to show a bit of faith and actually keep a manager for two seasons, before we press the eject button.

[Hermit Crab]

We need to go on an incredible run of form to save our season to get European football, next 2 games are must wins in terms of the top 6 for starters. If we scrape the top 6 then we will need to beat Killy, Hearts and St Mirren to stand a chance of Europe, I'm not sure Monty or this team have it in them. Going forward we are fine and I can always see us scoring but defensively we are an absolute bomb scare at times. For us to get Europe we are needing a bit of luck and relying on Celtic or Rangers winning that Scottish cup as well.

If we don't make the top 6 then I'm not sure if Monty will be here come the end of the season. Thats his immediate task though. Must make the top 6 or this season is a total disaster.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

And it will nice to be in the I told you so camp 6 weeks into his tenure when we start calling for his head 😁
+1

[Springbank]

The thing for NM is this:

He now has the best bench in the league outside the uglies

So his management decisions (on who to bring on, when, and ahead of other subs available to him) tell us a lot about the level he's Managing at.

Bringing on jair ahead of Boyle?

Sorry, that's never going to be smart.

Not deploying nmw against the hardest working midfield in the league? I don't get it.

These things become big for NM as he has been given a good squad

[bingo70]

We need to go on an incredible run of form to save our season to get European football, next 2 games are must wins in terms of the top 6 for starters. If we scrape the top 6 then we will need to beat Killy, Hearts and St Mirren to stand a chance of Europe, I'm not sure Monty or this team have it in them. Going forward we are fine and I can always see us scoring but defensively we are an absolute bomb scare at times. For us to get Europe we are needing a bit of luck and relying on Celtic or Rangers winning that Scottish cup as well.

If we don't make the top 6 then I'm not sure if Monty will be here come the end of the season. Thats his immediate task though. Must make the top 6 or this season is a total disaster.

I’m not sure that’s right Hermit.

Look at St Mirren’s fixtures they have left before the split, they have to beat Hearts this weekend, if they don’t then the have to beat Celtic away the following weekend.

We have to win our next two games, there’s almost no doubt about that (mathematically we don’t but realistically we do), if we do that though we will likely be either above or around the same points as St Mirren who currently occupy what will likely be a European spot.

I’m not convinced we will win both our last two games though, even though I think we should.

[Donegal Hibby]

We have tried chopping and changimg managers every time we have a bad patch and it has just made us worse. No matter how you look at it, it's taken McInnes two full pre-seasons and 3 transfer windows to get Killi playing ugly but effective football and getting them into the top 6. It's about time we stuck with a manager and did the same. Unless our new money can get us Unai Emery or Xabi Alonso I suggest we give the current manager an extended run and see where it takes us. I doubt we will make top six this year and that is very, very dissapointing, but I think we need to show a bit of faith and actually keep a manager for two seasons, before we press the eject button.

💯% :agree:

[Donegal Hibby]

That’s a fortune in wages, but thankfully some are out on loan
Campbell a bit unfair to include as he’s been injured
Stevenson and Hanlon not playing isn’t their choice

I’ve added Tait to your list

Campbell regularly gets called out which I thinks harsh . He gives 100% for us everytime he plays and has chipped in with some important goals too . Good squad player to have imo and a good Hibby too .

[Hibernian Verse]

The thing for NM is this:

He now has the best bench in the league outside the uglies

So his management decisions (on who to bring on, when, and ahead of other subs available to him) tell us a lot about the level he's Managing at.

Bringing on jair ahead of Boyle?

Sorry, that's never going to be smart.

Not deploying nmw against the hardest working midfield in the league? I don't get it.

These things become big for NM as he has been given a good squad

There must be a reason for the Jair sub rather than Boyle though. We will never know that reason, but he wouldn't have just plucked it from thin air. Most likely physio minute recommendations.

[Since452]

We need to go on an incredible run of form to save our season to get European football, next 2 games are must wins in terms of the top 6 for starters. If we scrape the top 6 then we will need to beat Killy, Hearts and St Mirren to stand a chance of Europe, I'm not sure Monty or this team have it in them. Going forward we are fine and I can always see us scoring but defensively we are an absolute bomb scare at times. For us to get Europe we are needing a bit of luck and relying on Celtic or Rangers winning that Scottish cup as well.

If we don't make the top 6 then I'm not sure if Monty will be here come the end of the season. Thats his immediate task though. Must make the top 6 or this season is a total disaster.

:agree: If someone told us before a ball was kicked this season that we'd finish bottom six then they'd have been laughed out of town. Most fancied us for 3rd or 4th with the investment in the summer.

[Since452]

I’d be sad to see Montgomery go on a personal level as he is likeable. However wouldn’t lose much sleep from a footballing perspective.

I still maintain it’s the squad that is the issue. We’ve got a good and competitive starting 11 and maybe a squad of 12 or 13 who can contribute. When we have to turn to the likes of Jair, Levitt, Hanlon, Stevenson, Campbell etc we quickly drop back into a bottom 6 team.

We’ve got around 15 players either making up the numbers or taking a wage for no contribution. Quantity over quality as a result of the last 3 or 4 windows.

Wollacot
Harbottle
JDH
Delfierre
Levitt
Tavares
Hanlon
Stevenson
Campbell
Mclelland
Mayenda
Henderson
Mackay
Kenneh
Mckirdy

After working so hard in January 2023 to get rid of players who were sitting around twiddling their thumbs to find ourselves with such a huge squad a year later is ridiculous.

[J-C]

There must be a reason for the Jair sub rather than Boyle though. We will never know that reason, but he wouldn't have just plucked it from thin air. Most likely physio minute recommendations.

Thing is, Boyle came on a few minutes later, we needed a goal, who do you trust to do that, Boyle or Jair?

[WhileTheChief..]

Last Hibs manager I actively listened to interviews was Lennon.

Yup called it as he saw it, even after rubbish results.

It’s more than that though, he was genuinely pleased to be Hibs manager. The last 3 we’ve had just don’t get it.

[WhileTheChief..]

[/B]

:agree: If someone told us before a ball was kicked this season that we'd finish bottom six then they'd have been laughed out of town. Most fancied us for 3rd or 4th with the investment in the summer.

I think lots did predict bottom six at the start of the season. They got pellets for it from others on here.

[easty]

His style of football at Aberdeen inevitably lead to him getting sacked especially when it started to go wrong like the run of only winning two games out of ten while only scoring ONE goal .

As I said the quarter final against Aberdeen is a classic example of his teams style of football . Imo it's horrible to watch and I wouldn't want it just as a lot of Aberdeen fans don't want it back either .

We are also talking about a manager that needed 3 to 4 windows at his current club , our manager has had only one . Maybe we should show the same patience as the Killie fans with our one , no? .

There's nothing to suggest that Monty would fritter away Foley's money , our signings have mainly been good under Monty have they not ? .

I don't think Killie are a boring side just now at all. I think in Armstrong and Watson they have 2 midfield players who are up there with the most exciting outwith the old firm.

I think his Aberdeen sides had players like Hayes, Mackay-Steven, Niall McGinn, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson. Again, not all that boring in my opinion.

I dunno why some Hibs fans persist with this style of football narrative where we're meant to play "better football" than other sides. We play good football when we've got better players, cos better players can play better! Most of the Hibs teams I've watched haven't provided quality football, most (not all) have produced standard scottish league football, and most of the time it's got us finishes outside the top 4 or 5.

Further, McInnes didn't need 3/4 windows. He went in and got them promoted straight away. Done. Aye he had a better budget than other sides (though...I doubt the budget was huge, it's Kilmarnock we're talking about), but doing what you're expected to do is still an achievement, an achievement we failed at in that league. They come up and stay up, which is what a club like Kilmarnock would aim for. He's now exceeding expectation and doing really well.

[we are hibs]

Yup called it as he saw it, even after rubbish results.




Apart from when he didn't take any responsibility for defeats and would rather throw players under the bus for his multiple bizzare team and tactical selections that cost us big games (mostly at tynecastle)

[B.H.F.C]

I don't think Killie are a boring side just now at all. I think in Armstrong and Watson they have 2 midfield players who are up there with the most exciting outwith the old firm.

I think his Aberdeen sides had players like Hayes, Mackay-Steven, Niall McGinn, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson. Again, not all that boring in my opinion.

I dunno why some Hibs fans persist with this style of football narrative where we're meant to play "better football" than other sides. We play good football when we've got better players, cos better players can play better! Most of the Hibs teams I've watched haven't provided quality football, most (not all) have produced standard scottish league football, and most of the time it's got us finishes outside the top 4 or 5.

Further, McInnes didn't need 3/4 windows. He went in and got them promoted straight away. Done. Aye he had a better budget than other sides (though...I doubt the budget was huge, it's Kilmarnock we're talking about), but doing what you're expected to do is still an achievement, an achievement we failed at in that league. They come up and stay up, which is what a club like Kilmarnock would aim for. He's now exceeding expectation and doing really well.

He’s only exceeding expectations because of the time and the changes he’s been able to make. Obviously he’s only had that time because he’s managed to hit the minimum requirements in the last couple of seasons (last season would have been the very minimum they expected). We’re still at a point where I don’t think our manager has failed in reaching the minimum. That’s not me saying he’s been brilliant or that the season has been a success, but he’s still got an opportunity to hit the minimum requirement which would be comparable to what McInnes did for Kilmarnock last season. And if he does that he should then have the chance to build IMO.

[LaMotta]

I don't think Killie are a boring side just now at all. I think in Armstrong and Watson they have 2 midfield players who are up there with the most exciting outwith the old firm.

I think his Aberdeen sides had players like Hayes, Mackay-Steven, Niall McGinn, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson. Again, not all that boring in my opinion.

I dunno why some Hibs fans persist with this style of football narrative where we're meant to play "better football" than other sides. We play good football when we've got better players, cos better players can play better! Most of the Hibs teams I've watched haven't provided quality football, most (not all) have produced standard scottish league football, and most of the time it's got us finishes outside the top 4 or 5.

Further, McInnes didn't need 3/4 windows. He went in and got them promoted straight away. Done. Aye he had a better budget than other sides (though...I doubt the budget was huge, it's Kilmarnock we're talking about), but doing what you're expected to do is still an achievement, an achievement we failed at in that league. They come up and stay up, which is what a club like Kilmarnock would aim for. He's now exceeding expectation and doing really well.


Spot on. His Aberdeen team wasn't shy of scoring 4, 5, 6 and even 7 against teams.

I don't actually think he was sacked for his boring style of play as is the line that is often trotted out. The reasons he left were more to do with the fact he had been there for ages ( familiarity breeds contempt amongst some fans) and a new owner came in who had different ideas, and him and McInnes never really hit it off.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

From my own point of view I genuinely couldn’t care less what any of them have to say. What happens on the park is the only thing of interest to me and I couldn’t care less what they’ve got to say about it or how they pronounce certain words etc.

Come to think of it, I can’t remember the last time I listened to an interview with a player or manager.

This is where I am too.

[jeffers]

He’s only exceeding expectations because of the time and the changes he’s been able to make. Obviously he’s only had that time because he’s managed to hit the minimum requirements in the last couple of seasons (last season would have been the very minimum they expected). We’re still at a point where I don’t think our manager has failed in reaching the minimum. That’s not me saying he’s been brilliant or that the season has been a success, but he’s still got an opportunity to hit the minimum requirement which would be comparable to what McInnes did for Kilmarnock last season. And if he does that he should then have the chance to build IMO.

Your second sentence hits the nail on the head for me. Same with every manager we’ve had, show signs of improvement, something to build on and they should be given time. With Maloney then Johnson that wasn’t happening so they were sacked. Is Monty showing enough to say we should stick with him ? Not for me. We’ve brought in 2 players in January who are arguably a level above any player outwith the OF but we are still struggling to make the Top 6. Other than the chat about not continually sacking managers can anyone really say hand on heart that Monty has proved he’s the answer ?

[Hibernian Verse]

Thing is, Boyle came on a few minutes later, we needed a goal, who do you trust to do that, Boyle or Jair?

He came on 11 minutes later with exactly 70 mins on the clock - suggests to me it was a planned 20 mins of action.

Needing a goal or not, it would be remiss to go against medical advice. Not to mention he's scores every 628 mins according to his stats this season. However, that's another discussion.

In answer to your question, I'd trust neither to make a meaningful impact at Ibrox.

[bingo70]

Your second sentence hits the nail on the head for me. Same with every manager we’ve had, show signs of improvement, something to build on and they should be given time. With Maloney then Johnson that wasn’t happening so they were sacked. Is Monty showing enough to say we should stick with him ? Not for me. We’ve brought in 2 players in January who are arguably a level above any player outwith the OF but we are still struggling to make the Top 6. Other than the chat about not continually sacking managers can anyone really say hand on heart that Monty has proved he’s the answer ?

We’re struggling to make the top 6 though because of the form before those guys signed though. The form guide since we signed them we’d be comfortably top 6.

I don’t think Monty has proven anything though and if we fail to make top 6, it’s very difficult to make a case for him. I agree with the poster who has described Monty as being in an on the job trial at the moment and I doubt he’s doing enough currently to impress the new people in charge. I do think he’s got time to win them round though, if he wins the next two games and we have a strong end to the season then that will likely be enough to give him another transfer window at least.

I’m not convinced we will win the next two games though.

[SHODAN]

I don't think it's unreasonable for any Hibs manager to expect anything other than the sack if they finish bottom six, unless they have credit in the bank from previous seasons.

How many Hearts/Aberdeen managers survived bottom six finishes in the last decade?

I'm not a massive fan of the phrase "accepting mediocrity" but it really is a textbook example.

[Heisenberg]

I don't think it's unreasonable for any Hibs manager to expect anything other than the sack if they finish bottom six, unless they have credit in the bank from previous seasons.

How many Hearts/Aberdeen managers survived bottom six finishes in the last decade?

I'm not a massive fan of the phrase "accepting mediocrity" but it really is a textbook example.

The last time an Aberdeen manager had a full season or close to it and survived after a bottom six finish was Craig Brown in 2011-12. He went on to last until April of the next season before being replaced my McInnes. Only other bottom six finishes for them since have been with managers only appointed in Feb/March time so can see why some leeway was given.

Hearts, from what I can see, haven’t had any manager survive a bottom six finish outside of when Locke replaced McGlynn but they were obviously skint then.

Don’t think Monty could have too many complaints if he were to lose his job off the back of a bottom six finish. Our squad isn’t great but it’s good enough for at least 6th.

[B.H.F.C]

Your second sentence hits the nail on the head for me. Same with every manager we’ve had, show signs of improvement, something to build on and they should be given time. With Maloney then Johnson that wasn’t happening so they were sacked. Is Monty showing enough to say we should stick with him ? Not for me. We’ve brought in 2 players in January who are arguably a level above any player outwith the OF but we are still struggling to make the Top 6. Other than the chat about not continually sacking managers can anyone really say hand on heart that Monty has proved he’s the answer ?

The two players didn’t solve all our problems though. Final third, where they play hasn’t been the issue since the window. You look at the nature of the goals lost at Kilmarnock, Aberdeen and Ross County in the 2-2 draws (our specialist subject before and after the window) and it’s down to how our total inability to defend simple balls in to the box.

For me it’s all a bit hypothetical at the moment. If we win our games and get top six, he gets the chance to build on it. If we fail, he’s bang in trouble and could have absolutely no complaints if emptied. Just need to seen what happens in the next few weeks.

What I would say is that I don’t think he’s a million miles away. It feels like it at times but he’s lost 8 games in the league and 5 of them have been to the Old Firm. With Johnson, it swung one way or the other and there was very little in between. With the number of draws we’ve had under Montgomery, I think a couple of improvements change it quite quickly.

[Cabbage-Patch]

For me personally even 6th isn't good enough and he would need by some miracle would need to catch Killie or St Mirren in 5th which is never going to happen. I genuinely don't think we have improved much if anything since LJ. Monty has lost less games than LJ but LJ won more. Far too many draws and points thrown away from losing positions. Jobs too big for him and we should empty him immediately if top 6 isn't achieved.

[badabing67]

When McInnes got Killie promoted they only finished something like 2 points ahead of Arbroath who probably had a lot smaller budget. In their first year back Killie finished 10th just 6 points ahead of Ross County in the relegation play off position. He was of course given time over 4 or so transfer windows to improve them . Which is what most managers need in fairness . His teams still play a horrible style of football though.

Arbroath were and still are a part-time side.

[Paulie Walnuts]

We’re struggling to make the top 6 though because of the form before those guys signed though. The form guide since we signed them we’d be comfortably top 6.

I don’t think Monty has proven anything though and if we fail to make top 6, it’s very difficult to make a case for him. I agree with the poster who has described Monty as being in an on the job trial at the moment and I doubt he’s doing enough currently to impress the new people in charge. I do think he’s got time to win them round though, if he wins the next two games and we have a strong end to the season then that will likely be enough to give him another transfer window at least.

I’m not convinced we will win the next two games though.

We’ve played 11 league games since Marcondes and Maolida signed and picked up 13 points, 1.18ppg. Prior to them signing we had picked up 22 in 16 under Montgomery (1.38ppg) and 25 in 20 overall under all managers (1.25ppg). At least that’s what I make it anyway!

If anything, based on results, it’s our form with them that’s costing us top 6, not our form prior. Which is a pretty damning indictment of Montgomery and his ability to get a lot of out a team with some very good players in it.

[Donegal Hibby]

I don't think Killie are a boring side just now at all. I think in Armstrong and Watson they have 2 midfield players who are up there with the most exciting outwith the old firm.

I think his Aberdeen sides had players like Hayes, Mackay-Steven, Niall McGinn, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson. Again, not all that boring in my opinion.

I dunno why some Hibs fans persist with this style of football narrative where we're meant to play "better football" than other sides. We play good football when we've got better players, cos better players can play better! Most of the Hibs teams I've watched haven't provided quality football, most (not all) have produced standard scottish league football, and most of the time it's got us finishes outside the top 4 or 5.

Further, McInnes didn't need 3/4 windows. He went in and got them promoted straight away. Done. Aye he had a better budget than other sides (though...I doubt the budget was huge, it's Kilmarnock we're talking about), but doing what you're expected to do is still an achievement, an achievement we failed at in that league. They come up and stay up, which is what a club like Kilmarnock would aim for. He's now exceeding expectation and doing really well.

Killie have some good players like Armstrong who was there before McInnes got the job and he did have some good players at Aberdeen though he does tend to want a Marley Watkins, Sam Cosgrove or Fraser Hornby type striker up front and that's not because he wants to play the ball on the deck btw .

I also disagree that he didn't need 3 or 4 windows he just missed the relegation play-offs and needed another summer window and pre season to get them were they are today which is exactly what he done at Aberdeen in making them a big physical team who play a lot of longballs and are hard to beat .

If Hibs played the way his Killie team did against one of the worst Aberdeen teams in years in the quarter finals of the cup we'd be calling for his head .Each to their own opinion though but i personally like to watch good football and McInnes football is just awful to watch imo . Come down to a choice of McInnes or Lennon , I'd rather Lennon back though both of them wouldn't last for different reasons at us .

[jeffers]

The two players didn’t solve all our problems though. Final third, where they play hasn’t been the issue since the window. You look at the nature of the goals lost at Kilmarnock, Aberdeen and Ross County in the 2-2 draws (our specialist subject before and after the window) and it’s down to how our total inability to defend simple balls in to the box.

For me it’s all a bit hypothetical at the moment. If we win our games and get top six, he gets the chance to build on it. If we fail, he’s bang in trouble and could have absolutely no complaints if emptied. Just need to seen what happens in the next few weeks.

What I would say is that I don’t think he’s a million miles away. It feels like it at times but he’s lost 8 games in the league and 5 of them have been to the Old Firm. With Johnson, it swung one way or the other and there was very little in between. With the number of draws we’ve had under Montgomery, I think a couple of improvements change it quite quickly.

No they absolutely didn’t, I guess I’m coming from the point of view that we really had to improve with players of that quality, I include NMW too. Not sure how much credit for that goes to Monty though. And you are absolutely right our defending is still dreadful, he’s had most of the season to fix that and he’s failed. It’s also not so simple to say he’s not been able to bring in defenders when he clearly rates Rocky, wants to keep Fish and has sanctioned an extension to Obita’s contract.

I’m also of the opinion that he changed things style/tactics wise ‘cos it was forced on him rather than him accepting what he was doing wasn’t working. Even then, he still continues to make subs that invariably have little to no impact and often make us worse. Saturday being a case in point.

[J-C]

He came on 11 minutes later with exactly 70 mins on the clock - suggests to me it was a planned 20 mins of action.

Needing a goal or not, it would be remiss to go against medical advice. Not to mention he's scores every 628 mins according to his stats this season. However, that's another discussion.

In answer to your question, I'd trust neither to make a meaningful impact at Ibrox.
I said a few minutes, I didn't really check as that wasn't important, also I think you realised I wasn't implying Boyle would actually score but more so the fact he may actually be involved in the build up to a goal more than Jair would.

[WhileTheChief..]

We’re struggling to make the top 6 though because of the form before those guys signed though. The form guide since we signed them we’d be comfortably top 6.

I don’t think Monty has proven anything though and if we fail to make top 6, it’s very difficult to make a case for him. I agree with the poster who has described Monty as being in an on the job trial at the moment and I doubt he’s doing enough currently to impress the new people in charge. I do think he’s got time to win them round though, if he wins the next two games and we have a strong end to the season then that will likely be enough to give him another transfer window at least.

I’m not convinced we will win the next two games though.

Do think a strong end to the season will lift the atmosphere at ER? I don't.

I know I don't have any evidence at all for this, but I just don't think the Hibs fanbase as a whole has taken to him at all.

The crowds have held up well, but ER is dead. It's like we're al waiting for something to happen. If NM stays, it's likely we'll have another season like the last couple.

I hope we go for someone else. Someone who can get the team playing in a way that gets ER buzzing again. I really miss that.

[B.H.F.C]

No they absolutely didn’t, I guess I’m coming from the point of view that we really had to improve with players of that quality, I include NMW too. Not sure how much credit for that goes to Monty though. And you are absolutely right our defending is still dreadful, he’s had most of the season to fix that and he’s failed. It’s also not so simple to say he’s not been able to bring in defenders when he clearly rates Rocky, wants to keep Fish and has sanctioned an extension to Obita’s contract.

I’m also of the opinion that he changed things style/tactics wise ‘cos it was forced on him rather than him accepting what he was doing wasn’t working. Even then, he still continues to make subs that invariably have little to no impact and often make us worse. Saturday being a case in point.

He’s not improved all the areas needing improved, but he’s improved some. I don’t think he could do it all in January. If he’s going to be criticised for not improving the defence then I think he should get credit for improving the midfield in particular. If he get to the summer I have a bit of hope he will address the defence on the basis that he’s the first manager who has looked to move on from Hanlon/Stevenson. That makes me think he’s seen it needs attention in the first place.

Despite me sticking up for him a bit, I wouldn’t exactly be worried if he was to go tomorrow. I just think he took over a complete **** show and has had a fair bit go against him. I also think he’s made mistakes, just think there’s a bit of balance to be had at times.

[Centre Hawf]

I've said before I would take McInnes but I can understand why others don't really want to. I also don't think it matters as I imagine that our next appointment will be from the network of sorts.

In terms of Monty I just don't think I've seen anything that makes me think the guys got "it", I find him and his football very mediocre and uninspiring. I'm sure he's a nice guy etc but it's all just been very meh from his tenure so far to the point that if we don't finish top 6 and with the new owner structure in place it strikes me that it could be a prime opportunity to see what we can do if we went all in on someone new.

That being said I do think we'll make top 6 and I do think we could still catch St Mirren and Killie once we do. Which if he does then he fully deserves backing.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

We’ve played 11 league games since Marcondes and Maolida signed and picked up 13 points, 1.18ppg. Prior to them signing we had picked up 22 in 16 under Montgomery (1.38ppg) and 25 in 20 overall under all managers (1.25ppg). At least that’s what I make it anyway!

If anything, based on results, it’s our form with them that’s costing us top 6, not our form prior. Which is a pretty damning indictment of Montgomery and his ability to get a lot of out a team with some very good players in it.

Interesting stats 🤔

[easty]

If Hibs played the way his Killie team did against one of the worst Aberdeen teams in years in the quarter finals of the cup we'd be calling for his head .Each to their own opinion though but i personally like to watch good football and McInnes football is just awful to watch imo . Come down to a choice of McInnes or Lennon , I'd rather Lennon back though both of them wouldn't last for different reasons at us .

I don’t think we play good football as it is, so playing the “killie” or “McInnes” way wouldn’t bother me, even though I disagree that they play terrible football anyway.

I want results. Results first, then mould the team into a good football side.

That Aberdeen side that put McInnes oot the cup, one of the worst in years as you say, only needed 10 men to beat Montgomerys Hibs in the semi final…

[jeffers]

He’s not improved all the areas needing improved, but he’s improved some. I don’t think he could do it all in January. If he’s going to be criticised for not improving the defence then I think he should get credit for improving the midfield in particular. If he get to the summer I have a bit of hope he will address the defence on the basis that he’s the first manager who has looked to move on from Hanlon/Stevenson. That makes me think he’s seen it needs attention in the first place.

Despite me sticking up for him a bit, I wouldn’t exactly be worried if he was to go tomorrow. I just think he took over a complete **** show and has had a stair bit for against him. I also think he’s made mistakes, just think there’s a bit of balance to be had at times.

I think he deserves criticism for the fact we still lose the same terrible goals we’ve been losing since the start of the season though. It’s not just a case of saying let’s sign 2/3 defenders especially when he seems perfectly happy with 3 out of our current back 4 anyway. That seems to be the way though nowadays managers don’t appear to improve what they inherited and all expect 3-4 windows to get their own players in before they can be properly judged. I’d also argue Hanlon should still be playing, but that’s another argument.

I’m disappointed. I like the guy, I’m just not seeing enough to make me think he’s the answer.

[B.H.F.C]

I think he deserves criticism for the fact we still lose the same terrible goals we’ve been losing since the start of the season though. It’s not just a case of saying let’s sign 2/3 defenders especially when he seems perfectly happy with 3 out of our current back 4 anyway. That seems to be the way though nowadays managers don’t appear to improve what they inherited and all expect 3-4 windows to get their own players in before they can be properly judged. I’d also argue Hanlon should still be playing, but that’s another argument.

I’m disappointed. I like the guy, I’m just not seeing enough to make me think he’s the answer.

That criticism is fine. As I say, I don’t think it should be followed up with him not getting the credit for something that has improved though. Signing a couple of midfielders has improved the midfield. I think signing a couple of defenders (decent ones) improves the defence.

I get the point on managers needing to improve what they have. I think he inherited a complete mess last year though. I know a lot of people think it was a good squad, I don’t though. A poor defence and a midfield full of players that had been part of a poor midfield for ages. He had a couple of good attacking players but that was about it for me. And even at that, I don’t think he used them properly.

We’ll see in the summer how happy he is with what he has defensively if he’s still there.

[easty]

That criticism is fine. As I say, I don’t think it should be followed up with him not getting the credit for something that has improved though. Signing a couple of midfielders has improved the midfield. I think signing a couple of defenders (decent ones) improves the defence.

I get the point on managers needing to improve what they have. I think he inherited a complete mess last year though. I know a lot of people think it was a good squad, I don’t though. A poor defence and a midfield full of players that had been part of a poor midfield for ages. He had a couple of good attacking players but that was about it for me. And even at that, I don’t think he used them properly.

We’ll see in the summer how happy he is with what he has defensively if he’s still there.

He did sign a defender. It’s the only signing you can look at and say that he was definitely a NM signing. We needed a centre half and he brought in a guy he’d had before. We looked worse in defence with him and he’s been shifted into midfield.

He’s done decently well in midfield too, but we needed a good centre half, and now were playing the same 2 that have cost us goals all season.

[B.H.F.C]

He did sign a defender. It’s the only signing you can look at and say that he was definitely a NM signing. We needed a centre half and he brought in a guy he’d had before. We looked worse in defence with him and he’s been shifted into midfield.

He’s done decently well in midfield too, but we needed a good centre half, and now were playing the same 2 that have cost us goals all season.

Again, agree with the bit on Triantis. It’s a bit selective though, signing that didn’t work is on NM. Signings that have, it’s doubtful how much he’s had to do with them….

I couldn’t believe we didn’t sign a proper centre half in the window, I thought it was so obvious. We did improve the team across the board though so was willing to give the benefit of the doubt as we weren’t going to improve everything.

If we go in to next season, with him still in charge, and Rocky still as his first pick centre half (I don’t think Fish will be here) that would concern me massively.

[Hibees1973]

I don't think it's unreasonable for any Hibs manager to expect anything other than the sack if they finish bottom six, unless they have credit in the bank from previous seasons.

How many Hearts/Aberdeen managers survived bottom six finishes in the last decade?

I'm not a massive fan of the phrase "accepting mediocrity" but it really is a textbook example.

Much as this thread relates to Montgomery, surely Ian Gordon and Kensell are culpable as well for the abject failure this season.

It was Ian Gordon who oversaw recruitment as part of his pet project for a couple of seasons which left Montgomery with an overblown squad full of mediocrity and inept players. If Montgomery had done any kind of research into Hibs before he joined, he would have known this beforehand. Most of us on hibs.net knew the inadequacies of the squad. Ever since McDermott came in he has had to focus a lot of his time shipping out the garbage that Ian Gordon brought in. Kensell is culpable for appointing a couple of joke managers.

The only reason I can justify for keeping Montgomery on is that he has had to cope with a load of mess created by Ian Gordon and Kensell. I can't think of any other legitimate reason for keeping Montgomery. The football under him since he came in has been slow, boring and predictable. Fine, it has improved slightly since the start of the year, but likely not good enough for us to even reach the top six. Wow, what an achievement.

[Donegal Hibby]

I don’t think we play good football as it is, so playing the “killie” or “McInnes” way wouldn’t bother me, even though I disagree that they play terrible football anyway.

I want results. Results first, then mould the team into a good football side.

That Aberdeen side that put McInnes oot the cup, one of the worst in years as you say, only needed 10 men to beat Montgomerys Hibs in the semi final…

Think for the most part we've played well enough over the last 8 games , really good first half against livvy were we moved the ball about with good movement . So lumping the ball down the park , cynical fouling with the rest of the traits from McInnes brand of football wouldn't be high up on my priorities to watch in all honesty.

I want both results and good football , one of which McInnes doesn't produce all the time , the other hardly ever ! .

True though we were by far the better team in that game and unfortunate to lose , the same can't be said for Killie in the quarter final . Think there was quite a few seagulls killed that day :wink:

[Logie Green]

Much as this thread relates to Montgomery, surely Ian Gordon and Kensell are culpable as well for the abject failure this season.

It was Ian Gordon who oversaw recruitment as part of his pet project for a couple of seasons which left Montgomery with an overblown squad full of mediocrity and inept players. If Montgomery had done any kind of research into Hibs before he joined, he would have known this beforehand. Most of us on hibs.net knew the inadequacies of the squad. Ever since McDermott came in he has had to focus a lot of his time shipping out the garbage that Ian Gordon brought in. Kensell is culpable for appointing a couple of joke managers.

The only reason I can justify for keeping Montgomery on is that he has had to cope with a load of mess created by Ian Gordon and Kensell. I can't think of any other legitimate reason for keeping Montgomery. The football under him since he came in has been slow, boring and predictable. Fine, it has improved slightly since the start of the year, but likely not good enough for us to even reach the top six. Wow, what an achievement.

Unless I mis-heard at the AGM it seems that Ian Gordon is still involved in player identification/recruitment. Hopefully with Foley getting involved IG won’t have the influence or involvement he appears to have had to date.

[Since452]

We’ve played 11 league games since Marcondes and Maolida signed and picked up 13 points, 1.18ppg. Prior to them signing we had picked up 22 in 16 under Montgomery (1.38ppg) and 25 in 20 overall under all managers (1.25ppg). At least that’s what I make it anyway!

If anything, based on results, it’s our form with them that’s costing us top 6, not our form prior. Which is a pretty damning indictment of Montgomery and his ability to get a lot of out a team with some very good players in it.

That's really surprising and quite worrying. I think everyone can see we've picked up a fair bit performance wise with the better players coming in, well, since St Mirren anyway! Maybe not translated to results.

[easty]

Again, agree with the bit on Triantis. It’s a bit selective though, signing that didn’t work is on NM. Signings that have, it’s doubtful how much he’s had to do with them….

I couldn’t believe we didn’t sign a proper centre half in the window, I thought it was so obvious. We did improve the team across the board though so was willing to give the benefit of the doubt as we weren’t going to improve everything.

If we go in to next season, with him still in charge, and Rocky still as his first pick centre half (I don’t think Fish will be here) that would concern me massively.

I’m not being selective on signings. I’m not saying that other players weren’t his choice, just that Triantis was almost definitely a NM decision, rather than a transfer committee or DoF.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Boom - drop the mic thread closed…

https://www.hibsobserver.co.uk/interviews/24226448.mcpherson-speaks-sauzee-williamson-foley-hibs/?ref=suit

"He will be successful and take us on. His first pick of players came in January and they have made a big difference. He has been unlucky with injuries and lost some games due to bizarre VAR decisions. All these things happen in football but with a modicum of good luck - which he has not had up until now - he will be a very successful manager."

[Smartie]

Monty surely deserves great credit for the midfield, given how many managers have failed to improve it sufficiently now?

Or is if McDermott who deserves the credit?

Whoever, Marcondes and NMW have made a huge impact. Triantis unexpectedly also in midfield. Amos looks like he’s good too if only he can shake the injuries.

Triantis hasn’t worked out at the back (although I do quite like how he drops into the back line from his DM post) and the defence wasn’t improved in January - but the midfield was surely the priority, with which he succeeded admirably?

[Donegal Hibby]

Monty surely deserves great credit for the midfield, given how many managers have failed to improve it sufficiently now?

Or is if McDermott who deserves the credit?

Whoever, Marcondes and NMW have made a huge impact. Triantis unexpectedly also in midfield. Amos looks like he’s good too if only he can shake the injuries.

Triantis hasn’t worked out at the back (although I do quite like how he drops into the back line from his DM post) and the defence wasn’t improved in January - but the midfield was surely the priority, with which he succeeded admirably?

I'd say both deserve credit , I did read both had went to watch NMW .

Triantis I'd say is definitely a Monty signing as he had him before . Still think Triantis could do a job in defence for us if needed though looks better in midfield .

I don't think we were going to fix all our problems in January. The midfield definitely was the priority area that needed fixing though which we done very well I think.

[JimBHibees]

For me personally even 6th isn't good enough and he would need by some miracle would need to catch Killie or St Mirren in 5th which is never going to happen. I genuinely don't think we have improved much if anything since LJ. Monty has lost less games than LJ but LJ won more. Far too many draws and points thrown away from losing positions. Jobs too big for him and we should empty him immediately if top 6 isn't achieved.

Every chance if we get top 6 we catch St Mirren. Possible we could catch them before the break

[ancient hibee]

That's really surprising and quite worrying. I think everyone can see we've picked up a fair bit performance wise with the better players coming in, well, since St Mirren anyway! Maybe not translated to results.

We’ve picked up 11 points in the last 6 games. Only the OF have done better.

[JimBHibees]

We’ve picked up 11 points in the last 6 games. Only the OF have done better.

And not more because of terrible decisions

[ancient hibee]

And not more because of terrible decisions

True.

[Brightside]

Boom - drop the mic thread closed…

https://www.hibsobserver.co.uk/interviews/24226448.mcpherson-speaks-sauzee-williamson-foley-hibs/?ref=suit

"He will be successful and take us on. His first pick of players came in January and they have made a big difference. He has been unlucky with injuries and lost some games due to bizarre VAR decisions. All these things happen in football but with a modicum of good luck - which he has not had up until now - he will be a very successful manager."

I read the same....the only thing against that (and I want Monty to stay) is Macpherson has no say in the manager role.

[JimBHibees]

I read the same....the only thing against that (and I want Monty to stay) is Macpherson has no say in the manager role.

But he may be conveying the mood of the Board

[Donegal Hibby]

Arbroath were and still are a part-time side.

Even more of an achievement from Arbroath then that they pushed a full-time club like Killie with a bigger budget for near the full season. I'd have expected McInnes to have run away with it that year tbh .

[Paulie Walnuts]

Even more of an achievement from Arbroath then that they pushed a full-time club like Killie with a bigger budget for near the full season. I'd have expected McInnes to have run away with it that year tbh .

You expected McInnes to run away with the league despite taking over a team in 4th place, more than half way through the season and going on to win the league with a game to spare? Quite how fast did you expect him to win it?

It was a valiant effort from Arbroath that season, but they didn’t really push Derek McInnes’ version of Kilmarnock all that close. In the games they both played after McInnes took over, Arbroath picked up 27 points to McInnes’ 34 points.

McInnes won that league with a better PPG than we won it with and that’s despite the fact he was at a team with a much smaller budget who had been failing for over half of the season before he came in. I’d suggest you were ‘expecting’ him to do better because it gives you a nonsensical stick to beat him with.

[Donegal Hibby]

You expected McInnes to run away with the league despite taking over a team in 4th place, more than half way through the season and going on to win the league with a game to spare? Quite how fast did you expect him to win it?

It was a valiant effort from Arbroath that season, but they didn’t really push Derek McInnes’ version of Kilmarnock all that close. In the games they both played after McInnes took over, Arbroath picked up 27 points to McInnes’ 34 points.

McInnes won that league with a better PPG than we won it with and that’s despite the fact he was at a team with a much smaller budget who had been failing for over half of the season before he came in. I’d suggest you were ‘expecting’ him to do better because it gives you a nonsensical stick to beat him with.

I'd have expected Killie to have ran away with it tbh considering it was probably one of the poorest championship in many years and taking into account they went down with players with premier league experience and were probably the biggest club in the league with the biggest budget and only to finish two points ahead of a part-time team who's players probably wouldn't have been as good as killies either . I'd say you'd have expected more from Killie that season . Know there's a Derek McInnes fan club on here though I'd have expected including with a new manager bounce he'd have done better and finished further ahead rather than scraping over the line .

[Paulie Walnuts]

I'd have expected Killie to have ran away with it tbh considering it was probably one of the poorest championship in many years and taking into account they went down with players with premier league experience and were probably the biggest club in the league with the biggest budget and only to finish two points ahead of a part-time team who's players probably wouldn't have been as good as killies either . I'd say you'd have expected more from Killie that season . Know there's a Derek McInnes fan club on here though I'd have expected including with a new manager bounce he'd have done better and finished further ahead rather than scraping over the line .

You said you’d expect McInnes specifically to run away with it. With McInnes record they would have run away with it had it been over a full season. They didnt because they were underperforming before he came in and he had less than half a season to turn around a failing team and overtake 3 other teams but still managed to do that and win the league with a game to spare whilst picking up a good amount more points than all the teams he was competing with.

Again, your expectation appears to have been set at a silly level purely so that you can use it criticise him. In what world should McInnes have had Kilmarnock performing at a higher level than Hibs or Rangers performed at when winning that league, or last season where you seem to think coming up off the back of promotion and staying up by 6 points wasn’t good enough? For someone that insistent that he’s not all that you seem to think he should be delivering nothing short of astonishingly good results.

[HIBS NUTS]

This I might be controversial to some , but how about not overreacting to every defeat, and let’s back the current manager, he might not be successful, none of us know, he was left a massive squad that was poor, with an aging first team.
At least give one manager, enough time, to correct the failings of the previous incumbents.

[matty_f]

You said you’d expect McInnes specifically to run away with it. With McInnes record they would have run away with it had it been over a full season. They didnt because they were underperforming before he came in and he had less than half a season to turn around a failing team and overtake 3 other teams but still managed to do that and win the league with a game to spare whilst picking up a good amount more points than all the teams he was competing with.

Again, your expectation appears to have been set at a silly level purely so that you can use it criticise him. In what world should McInnes have had Kilmarnock performing at a higher level than Hibs or Rangers performed at when winning that league?

How far behind the three sides above them were Killie when he took over?

[Since452]

I think McInnes is the best manager in Scotland outside Glasgow by a distance. Whether he'd fit in at Hibs or not i don't know. With the Foley investment i'd love to see the caliber of applicants should the job become available. We were an attractive job anyway but it will have gone up a level now.

[Paulie Walnuts]

How far behind the three sides above them were Killie when he took over?

I’ve no idea, I’ve no idea how to check tables at certain dates.

Regardless though, it’s still 3 teams who before he arrived were outperforming Kilmarnock. He had to turn things around and go on and outperform all of them, which he did fairly comfortably, to the point that he’d sealed the league within 16 games with a game to spare.

[easty]

This I might be controversial to some , but how about not overreacting to every defeat, and let’s back the current manager, he might not be successful, none of us know, he was left a massive squad that was poor, with an aging first team.
At least give one manager, enough time, to correct the failings of the previous incumbents.

The previous incumbent got us into europe last season with this massive poor old team.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I'm not overreacting to each defeat as they come. I'm reacting to the managers performance since he got the job. Which hasn't been good.

Some people might think he should only be judged on results since the transfer window, but I don't.

When Johnson was sacked, it was because he wasn't doing well enough with the squad he/we had. That means the expectation was that better performances and results were expected from the squad. Montgomery didn't get anything else out of it until we signed better players, and even now it's far from good.

[Paulie Walnuts]

The previous incumbent got us into europe last season with this massive poor old team.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I'm not overreacting to each defeat as they come. I'm reacting to the managers performance since he got the job. Which hasn't been good.

Some people might think he should only be judged on results since the transfer window, but I don't.

When Johnson was sacked, it was because he wasn't doing well enough with the squad he/we had. That means the expectation was that better performances and results were expected from the squad. Montgomery didn't get anything else out of it until we signed better players, and even now it's far from good.

Nobody is reacting to every individual defeat. It’s a culmination of a shambles of a season.

Montgomerys record since he got those better players is actually worse than his record was before he got them. Which is pretty damning.

[easty]

Montgomerys record since he got those better players is actually worse than his record was before he got them.

I've not looked to see if that's correct, but I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell us that it's only refs and var, rather than NM, that's to blame for that :rolleyes:

[JohnM1875]

How far behind the three sides above them were Killie when he took over?

He took over on 04/01/22 just after matchday 21 and Kilmarnock were five points off top with a game in hand

[HIBS NUTS]

Nobody is reacting to every individual defeat. It’s a culmination of a shambles of a season.

Montgomerys record since he got those better players is actually worse than his record was before he got them. Which is pretty damning.

Most of this forum overreacts to every bad result, then disappear at good results.
The decisions against us this season from VAR , have been horrendous, I would suggest worse by far than any other team., there is very little any manager can do about that, if not for these decisions, we would have been much higher up the league.
Personally I was absolutely delighted, when LJ. Left, as he was absolutely hopeless, and was not respected by anyone, he talked absolute nonsense, he was found out, and has since failed at fleetwood.
I would suggest that Monty is an improvement of him.

[bingo70]

Nobody is reacting to every individual defeat. It’s a culmination of a shambles of a season.

Montgomerys record since he got those better players is actually worse than his record was before he got them. Which is pretty damning.

I think plenty people do react badly to individual defeats but on this occasion I agree with your general point. This discussion around the future of the manager isn’t happening because we lost to Rangers, it’s because we’re close to missing out on the top 6.

If we win the next two we’ll more than likely get top 6 so he does still have time, very few people are suggesting he gets sacked now.

[Smartie]

I think McInnes is the best manager in Scotland outside Glasgow by a distance. Whether he'd fit in at Hibs or not i don't know. With the Foley investment i'd love to see the caliber of applicants should the job become available. We were an attractive job anyway but it will have gone up a level now.

I’m not so sure about the attractive job part.

We could probably do with having a manager leave Hibs with his career in better shape than before he arrived again before we can truly say that.

Who was the last manager to be able to say that? Stubbs?

We’re a bit of a graveyard tbh and if I was a self-respecting manager I think I’d be giving us a wide berth.

It’s actually in everybody’s interests for Monty to go on to be an undoubted success.

The Foley money will probably raise the bar a bit and our own choices as manager now have a sustained record of failing to reach our own bar.

[easty]

I’m not so sure about the attractive job part.

We could probably do with having a manager leave Hibs with his career in better shape than before he arrived again before we can truly say that.

Who was the last manager to be able to say that? Stubbs?

We’re a bit of a graveyard tbh and if I was a self-respecting manager I think I’d be giving us a wide berth.

It’s actually in everybody’s interests for Monty to go on to be an undoubted success.

The Foley money will probably raise the bar a bit and our own choices as manager now have a sustained record of failing to reach our own bar.

That could pretty much describe all clubs in the SPL.

What clubs have managers that have gone on to do well elsewhere? It's very rare, even at Rangers and Celtc where they're actually given the finances to actually achieve something here.

[matty_f]

I’ve no idea, I’ve no idea how to check tables at certain dates.

Regardless though, it’s still 3 teams who before he arrived were outperforming Kilmarnock. He had to turn things around and go on and outperform all of them, which he did fairly comfortably, to the point that he’d sealed the league within 16 games with a game to spare.
I get that, but it’s more impressive if he was 7 points off top spot and 4 off third at the time than if he was 2 points off top. Context helps the discussion when framing the achievement - I’m not saying that with any knowledge of whether he was miles away or tucked in behind so it’s not a loaded question, it could support either narrative.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I’m not so sure about the attractive job part.

We could probably do with having a manager leave Hibs with his career in better shape than before he arrived again before we can truly say that.

Who was the last manager to be able to say that? Stubbs?

We’re a bit of a graveyard tbh and if I was a self-respecting manager I think I’d be giving us a wide berth.

It’s actually in everybody’s interests for Monty to go on to be an undoubted success.

The Foley money will probably raise the bar a bit and our own choices as manager now have a sustained record of failing to reach our own bar.

You could flip that round though and say if you were a self confident manager that you’d back yourself to achieve something at Hibs given the players, facilities and funds at your disposal.

If a manager is looking at the Hibs job and questioning whether they’d be able to do better than the likes of Maloney, Johnson, Montgomery etc then I’d suggest they shouldn’t be anywhere near it anyway.

[hibsbollah]

Nobody is reacting to every individual defeat. It’s a culmination of a shambles of a season.

Montgomerys record since he got those better players is actually worse than his record was before he got them. Which is pretty damning.

Hold on. He’s W4 D3 L4 since the new players came in. Even if you don’t factor in the nature of three of those losses and two of those draws (Aberdeen and Hearts, plus Rangers twice and Celtic, which are well documented and i believe its totally churlish not to take that bad luck on board when assessing him since the window, plus theyre our hardest games of the season, after all!), thats not a worse record, thats a better record than before the new players came in.

[Paulie Walnuts]

He took over on 04/01/22 just after matchday 21 and Kilmarnock were five points off top with a game in hand

He managed 17 league games, so he can’t have taken over after match day 21?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Hold on. He’s W4 D3 L4 since the new players came in. Even if you don’t factor in the nature of three of those losses and two of those draws (Aberdeen and Hearts, plus Rangers twice and Celtic, which are well documented and i believe its totally churlish not to take that bad luck on board when assessing him since the window, plus theyre our hardest games of the season, after all!), thats not a worse record, thats a better record than before the new players came in.

Apologies, you’re correct. It was previously mentioned about him improving our league results since Marcondes and Maolida came in but I didn’t take into account that wasn’t the end of the window. It’s worse since the two of them came in, it’s better since the end of the window.

[JohnM1875]

He managed 17 games, so he can’t have taken over after match day 21?

Killie game that was due for matchday 21 (2nd Jan 22) was postponed. Must have been where the game in hand came from.

[matty_f]

https://www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11095/12509057/derek-mcinnes-kilmarnock-appoint-former-aberdeen-boss-on-deal-until-summer-of-2023

Killie were 5 points behind leaders Arbroath with a game in hand when Mcinnes took over.

[hibsbollah]

Apologies, you’re correct. It was previously mentioned about him improving our league results since Marcondes and Maolida came in but I didn’t take into account that wasn’t the end of the window. It’s worse since the two of them came in, it’s better since the end of the window.

No problem, well done to acknowledge it :aok:
Four main things are at play since the window slammed shut. 1. Moriah Welsh giving us midfield balance finally 2 Mizzy scoring chances we’d been missing previously, his combo with Youan looking good but 3. Same old weaknsses at the back and 4. Terrible officiating in 3 out of the 4 defeats and all three of the drawn games makes the Feb and March period hard to judge, but a **** of a lot better than after walking out of ER after that St Mirren game thinking the world was over. We’re undoubtedly on the up since then .

[WeeRussell]

I’ve no idea, I’ve no idea how to check tables at certain dates.

Just a thought and might be a non-starter, as I don’t know what the source was. But wouldn’t the place where you got all the info on the position they were in when Mcinness took over, how many games were still to play, and how many points they accumulated etc divulge that?

[JimBHibees]

This I might be controversial to some , but how about not overreacting to every defeat, and let’s back the current manager, he might not be successful, none of us know, he was left a massive squad that was poor, with an aging first team.
At least give one manager, enough time, to correct the failings of the previous incumbents.

Agree though that will never catch on.

[Alex Trager]

He managed 17 league games, so he can’t have taken over after match day 21?

Me and you have done this at least two times already.

You know they were in 4th with a game in hand and five points behind.

You have a great memory for all the facts re being in fourth, one game to spare etc. so I would find it hard to believe that you don’t remember the point situ.

You like McInnes. You think he done a great job at Killie the first season, and presumably since then.

It’s pretty mental how often you are on here rehashing the same arguments not knowing how many points they were behind the other teams in the championship.

[KeithTheHibby]

I think plenty people do react badly to individual defeats but on this occasion I agree with your general point. This discussion around the future of the manager isn’t happening because we lost to Rangers, it’s because we’re close to missing out on the top 6.

If we win the next two we’ll more than likely get top 6 so he does still have time, very few people are suggesting he gets sacked now.


And if we don't win on Saturday I expect the tide to turn quite dramatically especially if Dundee win.

[bingo70]

And if we don't win on Saturday I expect the tide to turn quite dramatically especially if Dundee win.

Agreed.

If that happens he won’t recover from it as Hibs manager. I’ve argued the toss plenty in the past about the definition of a must win game but there’s no question this is one of them.

[hibsbollah]

Agreed.

If that happens he won’t recover from it as Hibs manager. I’ve argued the toss plenty in the past about the definition of a must win game but there’s no question this is one of them.

I have a feeling we take 4 points from final two games, and we get top 6 on goal difference because Dundee only take 3 from their final three games (beating Motherwell then lose to Rangers and up in Aberdeen). A draw this weekend could still see us stagger over the line.

[bingo70]

I have a feeling we take 4 points from final two games, and we get top 6 on goal difference because Dundee only take 3 from their final three games (beating Motherwell then lose to Rangers and up in Aberdeen). A draw this weekend could still see us stagger over the line.

Mathematically it may not be a must win but if you can’t win a must win game at home to St Johnstone, it’s very unlikely we will achieve anything of note after the split, even if we do sneak in after drawing at the weekend.

It’s definitely a must win game for me at the weekend, even if mathematically that’s not the case.

[hibsbollah]

Mathematically it may not be a must win but if you can’t win a must win game at home to St Johnstone, it’s very unlikely we will achieve anything of note after the split, even if we do sneak in after drawing at the weekend.

It’s definitely a must win game for me at the weekend, even if mathematically that’s not the case.

I dont disagree, thats just the way i think it will play out. Dont ask me why. Maybe i just think we’ll always fail to deal with a simple cross ball.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Just a thought and might be a non-starter, as I don’t know what the source was. But wouldn’t the place where you got all the info on the position they were in when Mcinness took over, how many games were still to play, and how many points they accumulated etc divulge that?

News articles when he took over mentioned 4th place. A look at their results show how he got on.

[darwenhibby]

I don’t think Dundee will lose in Aberdeen
They will be out the running for top 6 and one eye on the cup semi final the following week
Dundee could easily get 4 points which means we need the 2 wins

Even St Mirren losing both games means we need the 6 points

[Since452]

Mathematically it may not be a must win but if you can’t win a must win game at home to St Johnstone, it’s very unlikely we will achieve anything of note after the split, even if we do sneak in after drawing at the weekend.

It’s definitely a must win game for me at the weekend, even if mathematically that’s not the case.

A very poor St Johnstone. I think we'll beat them and beat them fairly comfortably but it might not be enough come the split unfortunately.

[matty_f]

Me and you have done this at least two times already.

You know they were in 4th with a game in hand and five points behind.

You have a great memory for all the facts re being in fourth, one game to spare etc. so I would find it hard to believe that you don’t remember the point situ.

You like McInnes. You think he done a great job at Killie the first season, and presumably since then.

It’s pretty mental how often you are on here rehashing the same arguments not knowing how many points they were behind the other teams in the championship.

Didn’t realise that aspect had been discussed in detail already. It certainly feels less like a major overhaul in going past the teams in front when you’re 5 points behind first place with a game in hand, to be fair - you obviously need to win that game but coming in with the potential to go 2 behind first after your first game isn’t really the achievement it was portrayed as.


Considering from that position it took until the penultimate game of the season to secure the title over Arbroath - you’d think there might have been some distance put between them by then.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Me and you have done this at least two times already.

You know they were in 4th with a game in hand and five points behind.

You have a great memory for all the facts re being in fourth, one game to spare etc. so I would find it hard to believe that you don’t remember the point situ.

You like McInnes. You think he done a great job at Killie the first season, and presumably since then.

It’s pretty mental how often you are on here rehashing the same arguments not knowing how many points they were behind the other teams in the championship.

Can’t say I remember having that discussion with you.

How many were they behind 2nd? 3rd? Was that discussed as well? Again, regardless of that, he still had to better the results of 3 different teams who had been bettering them. He had a PPG that was better than ours when we won that same league. His record was very good.

I’ve also no doubt in my mind that my ‘portrayal’ of his time at Kilmarnock is a hell of a lot more reasonable than one which indicates that Derek McInnes should have further outperformed the likes of Hibs and also outperformed Rangers when they were in that league and won it by a distance and he also should have stayed up by more than 6 points from the playoff spot and 9 from the relegation spot in his first season back up which is an utter nonsense.

[superfurryhibby]

Didn’t realise that aspect had been discussed in detail already. It certainly feels less like a major overhaul in going past the teams in front when you’re 5 points behind first place with a game in hand, to be fair - you obviously need to win that game but coming in with the potential to go 2 behind first after your first game isn’t really the achievement it was portrayed as.


Considering from that position it took until the penultimate game of the season to secure the title over Arbroath - you’d think there might have been some distance put between them by then.

Tend to agree with this.

I think achievement at Killie is what McInnes has done since promotion. The league was to be expected, albeit that they didn't make it easy for themselves.

[Donegal Hibby]

You said you’d expect McInnes specifically to run away with it. With McInnes record they would have run away with it had it been over a full season. They didnt because they were underperforming before he came in and he had less than half a season to turn around a failing team and overtake 3 other teams but still managed to do that and win the league with a game to spare whilst picking up a good amount more points than all the teams he was competing with.

Again, your expectation appears to have been set at a silly level purely so that you can use it criticise him. In what world should McInnes have had Kilmarnock performing at a higher level than Hibs or Rangers performed at when winning that league, or last season where you seem to think coming up off the back of promotion and staying up by 6 points wasn’t good enough? For someone that insistent that he’s not all that you seem to think he should be delivering nothing short of astonishingly good results.

Considering the championship was the poorest it had been in many years that season , were Killies main challengers for the league title were a part - time club then yes i would have expected killie to have won it by a bigger point margin in fairness.

Though they didn't and even though they got the job done I hardly think it was as impressive as some are sayings it was to finish just 2 points ahead of the mighty Arbroath who finished I think 27 points behind the league winners the year before.

After scraping promotion over the mighty Arbroath Derek McInnes had the luxury of a summer transfer window and a pre-season to plan his return to the top flight with Killie .

On returning some of the results were far from impressive like getting hammered by Dundee Utd 4-0 , Livvy 3-1 , Dons 4-1 and Ross county 3-0 . I think St Johnstone even beat them home and away too .

Again they got the job done scraping to avoid a relegation play-off . Which again I don't think was a entirely impressive season for them even if they were the newly promoted team . McInnes ex assistant as done far better in his first season back with Dundee than McInnes did imo .

With yet another summer window and another pre-season for Derek McInnes at Killie he is now having a pretty good season though like all managers that come into a club as you say thats underperforming like Killie and dare i say Hibs. A manager needs time just like McInnes did .


Sometimes you need to have patience . As the saying goes ' Rome wasn't built in a day ' neither can you build a football club that's been struggling after one transfer window either imo .��

[matty_f]

Tend to agree with this.

I think achievement at Killie is what McInnes has done since promotion. The league was to be expected, albeit that they didn't make it easy for themselves.

Agree, last season wasn’t great but he’s done brilliantly with them this season.

[easty]

Considering the championship was the poorest it had been in many years that season , were Killies main challengers for the league title were a part - time club then yes i would have expected killie to have won it by a bigger point margin in fairness.

Though they didn't and even though they got the job done I hardly think it was as impressive as some are sayings it was to finish just 2 points ahead of the mighty Arbroath who consequently finished I think 27 points behind the league winners the year before.

After scraping promotion over the mighty Arbroath Derek McInnes had the luxury of a summer transfer window and a pre-season to plan his return to the top flight with Killie .

On returning some of the results were far from impressive like getting hammered by Dundee Utd 4-0 , Livvy 3-1 , Dons 4-1 and Ross county 3-0 . I think St Johnstone even beat them home and away too .

Again they got the job done scraping to avoid a relegation play-off . Which again I don't think was a entirely impressive season for them even if they were the newly promoted team . McInnes ex assistant as done far better in his first season back with Dundee than McInnes did imo .

With yet another summer window and another pre-season for Derek McInnes at Killie he is now having a pretty good season though like all managers that come into a club as you say thats underperforming like Killie and dare i say Hibs. A manager needs time just like McInnes did .


Sometimes you need to have patience . As the saying goes ' Rome wasn't built in a day ' neither can you build a football club that's been struggling after one transfer window either imo .👍

You keep downplaying the "mighty Arbroath", but they finished 2nd that season with 65 points, which is more than Dundee won the league with last season, and only 6 points less than we got when we won it! Part time or not they had a great season.

On one hand you're saying Killie just weren't very good getting promoted, but then you also don't think they deserve credit for avoiding relegation in his first season back in the prem?

As for Doherty doing a far better job this season at Dundee. I reckon he'll finish with about 6 more points that Killie did last season. Is that far better?

[Donegal Hibby]

You keep downplaying the "mighty Arbroath", but they finished 2nd that season with 65 points, which is more than Dundee won the league with last season, and only 6 points less than we got when we won it! Part time or not they had a great season.

On one hand you're saying Killie just weren't very good getting promoted, but then you also don't think they deserve credit for avoiding relegation in his first season back in the prem?

As for Doherty doing a far better job this season at Dundee. I reckon he'll finish with about 6 more points that Killie did last season. Is that far better?

Not at all easty , since Arbroath won the Scottish league 1 in 2018/19 season they've done remarkably well for a part time team keeping themselves in the championship imo .

The 2019/ 20 season they finished 23 points behind the league winners Dundee Utd , following year 27 points behind the league winners hertz and to finish just 2 points behind a full-time club like Killie who had a bigger squad, budget etc was quite a remarkable achievement in itself.

I expected Killie to walk it that year tbh and when McInnes was appointed I thought they'd pull away and have won it more comfortably considering it was one of the poorest championship in years and their main rival was a part time club with probably a smaller less talented squad .

When they came up I thought with having a very experienced manager and a budget equal or better than some of the other clubs they'd have done better , yes .

As to your question wither Docherty has done better? Killie finished 10th , 6 points out of the play offs and 9 from the bottom position.

Dundee are 12 clear of the play offs and 22 clear from the bottom position at this moment in time . Dundee have also scored more goals than Killie did and the season not finished yet . So I'd say it was probably far better though that's just my opinion though.

[ChilliEater]

I think it's clear from the Derek McInnes argument that we should appoint Dick Campbell :wink:

[Donegal Hibby]

I think it's clear from the Derek McInnes argument that we should appoint Dick Campbell :wink:

There's been worse suggestions than Campbell for our job imo . Here's another D**k that was mentioned once or twice and it ain't Pepe btw 😂

https://youtu.be/sMENudhmanA?si=VFDlwZBY6o2Aq9Sz

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

There's been worse suggestions than Campbell for our job imo .

Really? 🤔

[Donegal Hibby]

Really? 🤔

Tongue in cheek mate , though he has a better win rate than Keane, Martindale and Mackay has though 😜

[Centre Hawf]

I think both “Killie should have won the league easier than they did” and “McInnes did well to win the league” can exist at the same time.

Killie were making a right pigs ear of it and DM did well to get them over the line considering the way more than half the season had gone before he arrived.

[JimBHibees]

A very poor St Johnstone. I think we'll beat them and beat them fairly comfortably but it might not be enough come the split unfortunately.

While St Johnstone are poor they pretty much dominated Dundee at the weekend

[Brightside]

Really? 🤔

LJ

[matty_f]

Can’t say I remember having that discussion with you.

How many were they behind 2nd? 3rd? Was that discussed as well? Again, regardless of that, he still had to better the results of 3 different teams who had been bettering them. He had a PPG that was better than ours when we won that same league. His record was very good.

I’ve also no doubt in my mind that my ‘portrayal’ of his time at Kilmarnock is a hell of a lot more reasonable than one which indicates that Derek McInnes should have further outperformed the likes of Hibs and also outperformed Rangers when they were in that league and won it by a distance and he also should have stayed up by more than 6 points from the playoff spot and 9 from the relegation spot in his first season back up which is an utter nonsense.

I don’t know exactly how far behind 2nd and 3rd they are but can say that, given they were only 5 behind Arbroath in first with a game in hand, they were at most 5 points behind those teams if the top 3 were split on goal difference but most likely between 1-4 points behind. Not exactly insurmountable.

[Since452]

McInnes out. Had enough of him.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

LJ

I don't think anyone was suggesting him before he was appointed.

[Winston Ingram]

I don't think anyone was suggesting him before he was appointed.

I'm pretty sure we'd have been in a far better position than we are now if we'd kept him.

This boy has shown nothing and if we fail to make the top 6 he should be emptied. He's been an awful appointment.

[WhileTheChief..]

Agree though that will never catch on.

Would you have stuck by Butcher or Calderwood? Or Maloney or LJ?

Imagine the problems we'd have had if we did.

Sometimes changing manager is the right thing to do. Sticking by someone who isn't doing a great job doesn't seem that sensible when we're trying to aim for higher finishes than we've had in the past.

Why not find someone who can get us flying, then stick with him?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I'm pretty sure we'd have been in a far better position than we are now if we'd kept him.

This boy has shown nothing and if we fail to make the top 6 he should be emptied. He's been an awful appointment.

Aye, I'm not overly keen myself.

[matty_f]

Would you have stuck by Butcher or Calderwood? Or Maloney or LJ?

Imagine the problems we'd have had if we did.

Sometimes changing manager is the right thing to do. Sticking by someone who isn't doing a great job doesn't seem that sensible when we're trying to aim for higher finishes than we've had in the past.

Why not find someone who can get us flying, then stick with him?

It’s a reasonable argument, what I would say though if that if you’re in a position where you’re churning managers, which were absolutely will be if Monty is sacked, irrespective of what other clubs do, then you need to look Brin’s the manager and ask yourself if that’s where the problem lies.

I would say that’s more the case when you have hired managers with a track record of achievement (whether that’s absolute in terms of cup/title wins, or relative with having a team punch above its weight).

If the club’s done its homework and due diligence in the recruitment process and are confident that they have the right guy, then the sensible thing to do is to stick with him and dig into what he needs to be successful -if you don’t unearth the root cause and simply blame and change the manager constantly, then it’s luck and only luck that’ll dig you out the hole otherwise you just compound mistakes and go backwards - which is the broad trend we’re seeing post-Jack Ross’s 3rd place finish.

It needs accountability and honesty across the club. They need to pinpoint where it’s going wrong and address those areas - there’s a good chance there are multiple issues but i wouldn’t think any are insurmountable at a club like Hibs with the right focus on them.

If you don’t go through that process, we’ll be this conversation in a year about McInnes, or whoever else takes over.

You mentioned Butcher, we were right to ditch him because he was evidently the wrong fit for the club, but Hibs addressed a whole load of other areas to lay the foundations for Stubbs’ tenure, for which we saw the benefits up to Jack Ross’ time.

[Since452]

Would you have stuck by Butcher or Calderwood? Or Maloney or LJ?

Imagine the problems we'd have had if we did.

Sometimes changing manager is the right thing to do. Sticking by someone who isn't doing a great job doesn't seem that sensible when we're trying to aim for higher finishes than we've had in the past.

Why not find someone who can get us flying, then stick with him?

I think it's a bit unfair to bracket LJ in with that other lot. LJ got us into Europe and gave us one of our best results in recent times and was very unlucky drawing Aston Villa in the playoffs. He improved us considerably from Maloney (not difficult i know). I think we would have been far better off sticking with LJ than appointing Montgomery but nobody has a crystal ball. At the time i thought LJ had to go as with the investment in the summer i thought the bar had been set high and standards weren't being hit. It's not improved at all from last season imo. I'd love us to get someone in with a bit of charisma and pedigree. Don't ask me who but it just feels a bit flat at the minute. Hard to get excited for games.

[Heisenberg]

I'm pretty sure we'd have been in a far better position than we are now if we'd kept him.

This boy has shown nothing and if we fail to make the top 6 he should be emptied. He's been an awful appointment.

Not sure there is any evidence to suggest LJ would have us in a far better position.

[Basildon Hibs]

Would you have stuck by Butcher or Calderwood? Or Maloney or LJ?

Imagine the problems we'd have had if we did.

Sometimes changing manager is the right thing to do. Sticking by someone who isn't doing a great job doesn't seem that sensible when we're trying to aim for higher finishes than we've had in the past.

Why not find someone who can get us flying, then stick with him?

👏👍👍

[Dashing Bob S]

There’s no way American businessmen would trust a slaver like Johnson with serious money. He hit a peak as manager before he came to us and is in the business of scamming increasingly lower financed posts from anyone who will buy his BS. By all means criticize NM - it’s at least partly deserved. But do it on the basis that McInnes or whoever would have been a better appointment. Please don’t evoke the Johnson defense- that is no defense at all.

[WhileTheChief..]

If the club’s done its homework and due diligence in the recruitment process and are confident that they have the right guy, then the sensible thing to do is to stick with him and dig into what he needs to be successful -if you don’t unearth the root cause and simply blame and change the manager constantly, then it’s luck and only luck that’ll dig you out the hole otherwise you just compound mistakes and go backwards - which is the broad trend we’re seeing post-Jack Ross’s 3rd place finish.

It needs accountability and honesty across the club.

They've had 3 attempts to find the right man. I'm finding it hard to have faith in those that make these decisions.

So yeah, maybe we're better sticking with what we've got as it could easily get worse than it is. Not exactly a greta starting point, but we are where we are.

Personally, I'd like to see the BKs exert some influence and bring in a new chief exec. That gives NM time to get us playing well and some decent results.

If he doesn't, then the new Chief Exec can hit the ground running by appointing a new manager - not a prospect or someone who might become a decent manager - but someone with a track record of some kind of achievement.

[Brightside]

Not sure there is any evidence to suggest LJ would have us in a far better position.

Thankfully he is gone and we don't need to worry about it. NM is the man and long may he continue.

[Winston Ingram]

Not sure there is any evidence to suggest LJ would have us in a far better position.

I think the fact that he’d already achieved that last year is pretty solid evidence.

[Heisenberg]

I think the fact that he’d already achieved that last year is pretty solid evidence.

He had us finish 5th, I’d suggest that isn’t out of the equation for NM yet. Don’t forget LJ also scraped into the top six at the last game before the split. Win the next two and we’ll be on the same points as we were at the split last season, which obviously isn’t the improvement anyone would’ve wanted.

Monty has had one window. LJ had three and had us getting scudded at home to dross like Livi at the start of this season. Very little to show he would’ve had us “far” better imo. Monty has a slightly better overall PPG too, think LJs will be a bit ahead in the league though.

[Since452]

He had us finish 5th, I’d suggest that isn’t out of the equation for NM yet. Don’t forget LJ also scraped into the top six at the last game before the split. Win the next two and we’ll be on the same points as we were at the split last season, which obviously isn’t the improvement anyone would’ve wanted.

Monty has had one window. LJ had three and had us getting scudded at home to dross like Livi at the start of this season. Very little to show he would’ve had us “far” better imo. Monty has a slightly better overall PPG too, think LJs will be a bit ahead in the league though.

Wonder how Montgomery would have got on taking over from Maloney and not inheriting a team that almost finished 3rd the season before and who were in Europe

[B.H.F.C]

Wonder how Montgomery would have got on taking over from Maloney and not inheriting a team that almost finished 3rd the season before and who were in Europe

He might not have got knocked out of a League Cup group containing Falkirk, Morton and Bonnyrigg for a start.

[The Modfather]

Wonder how Montgomery would have got on taking over from Maloney and not inheriting a team that almost finished 3rd the season before and who were in Europe

To be fair Montgomery did inherit a squad with around £2m spent on it in the summer but still tasked with picking a defence from Fish/Rocky/Hanlon and making a fist of a midfield from Newell, Levitt & Jeggo. Think we have to go back to Lennon for a manager dealt a good hand with what he inherited.

[007]

Wonder how Montgomery would have got on taking over from Maloney and not inheriting a team that almost finished 3rd the season before and who were in Europe

He didn't inherit the main goalscorer whose goals probably kept LJ in the job long enough to scrape into the top 6 and he probably would have done quite well up against 10 men regularly as opposed to the 12 or 13 it now feels like at times.

Regardless, if he'd taken over from Maloney you'd no doubt have been on his case before his 1st match back then too.

[Unseen work]

The real question is would Montgomery have sanctioned the signing of Bojang.

[JimBHibees]

Would you have stuck by Butcher or Calderwood? Or Maloney or LJ?

Imagine the problems we'd have had if we did.

Sometimes changing manager is the right thing to do. Sticking by someone who isn't doing a great job doesn't seem that sensible when we're trying to aim for higher finishes than we've had in the past.

Why not find someone who can get us flying, then stick with him?

Sometimes it is sometimes it isn’t. Binning him with the third best run of form in the league when been on the end of horrific decisions would suggest getting rid would be an irrational decision imo.

[JimBHibees]

I think the fact that he’d already achieved that last year is pretty solid evidence.

Not really he only got top 6 by the skin of his teeth and because Livi took no points for their last five games or so. Also had no points after playing St Mirren Livi and Motherwell with some of the worst football ever seen

[jakeshibs]

lets try and get a bit stabilty as constantly changing managers has not brought us any success.

[Since452]

He didn't inherit the main goalscorer whose goals probably kept LJ in the job long enough to scrape into the top 6 and he probably would have done quite well up against 10 men regularly as opposed to the 12 or 13 it now feels like at times.

Regardless, if he'd taken over from Maloney you'd no doubt have been on his case before his 1st match back then too.

Regardless of who he took over from a crap appointment is a crap appointment.

[matty_f]

They've had 3 attempts to find the right man. I'm finding it hard to have faith in those that make these decisions.

So yeah, maybe we're better sticking with what we've got as it could easily get worse than it is. Not exactly a greta starting point, but we are where we are.

Personally, I'd like to see the BKs exert some influence and bring in a new chief exec. That gives NM time to get us playing well and some decent results.

If he doesn't, then the new Chief Exec can hit the ground running by appointing a new manager - not a prospect or someone who might become a decent manager - but someone with a track record of some kind of achievement.

Again, that's only valid if the manager's been the root cause of the underperformance each time. The recruitment process has been changed and those involved have been changed since Ross was sacked, yet we've not made any progress.

Maloney was a gamble, no track record but a good reputation - a risk but not an outlandish one.
Johnson - had relative success at the clubs he'd been at previously. Not an unblemished record but not a huge gamble either. Certainly enough on his CV to suggest that he knew what he was doing.
Monty - recent success at the club we took him from, enough there to suggest he knows what he is doing.

Whoever we go for next isn't going to have a CV much better than these guys, I would guess, so there's an element of risk in whatever appointment we make.

What you can say, though, is that if the hiring process has changed, the people hiring have changed (to a degree), and the managers have changed and we are still not making the progress expected, then the problem's probably elsewhere.

Might be more than one problem, we know recruitment hasn't been great, there have been higher than normal injuries over the last couple of seasons, a transfer strategy was put in place that didn't bear the results it should have...

That's just the issues we can get a bit of a view on, the club need to take a forensic look at the operation and figure out what the blocker is to us succeeding as we all think we should.

This is, IMHO, where Brian McDermott should earn his corn - and it may well be the case that he's making changes that will address the issues.

Simply putting it on the manager(s) and those hiring is too simplistic a solution, IMHO. I would bet that we could change the manager tomorrow and be having similar conversations in a year's time if other changes weren't made.

[007]

Regardless of who he took over from a crap appointment is a crap appointment.

Most fans give a manager a chance, you'd made your mind up before he'd even started.

[Donegal Hibby]

We probably have players lined up that the manager wants , maybe like Nisbet or Farrell ( guessing ) . Changing the manager now would just put us back to square one and we are still left with the same problems in we need a clear out and to add some quality to improve us .

There's no guarantees another manager being appointed will be any better or immediately turn us around , he'd need time too just like our current one does though a new one will probably need even more and its a costly business to continually sack managers.

Our manager has had ONE window to improve us and the evidence is there over the last 8 games we have , the recruitment for the January window was very good imo which is another positive sign that McDermott and Monty are working well together .

If we start changing managers after only one transfer window and not accepting that a manager is going to need time to fix a team that's been struggling we won't get any further forward which imo is exactly what's been happening to us the last few year's.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

You are the prospective manager.
Let’s say the team needs an overhaul & you need to big improvements. You’ve done your homework. You have a plan to phase out the old guard whilst blooding youth. You arrive a bit into the season.
Your first window is Jan.

How many windows do you think is reasonable to say you had a fair crack of the whip ?

a) 0
b) 3-5
c) 5+

[Stevie Reid]

We probably have players lined up that the manager wants , maybe like Nisbet or Farrell ( guessing ) . Changing the manager now would just put us back to square one and we are still left with the same problems in we need a clear out and to add some quality to improve us .

There's no guarantees another manager being appointed will be any better or immediately turn us around , he'd need time too just like our current one does though a new one will probably need even more and its a costly business to continually sack managers.

Our manager has had ONE window to improve us and the evidence is there over the last 8 games we have , the recruitment for the January window was very good imo which is another positive sign that McDermott and Monty are working well together .

If we start changing managers after only one transfer window and not accepting that a manager is going to need time to fix a team that's been struggling we won't get any further forward which imo is exactly what's been happening to us the last few year's.

In terms of your last paragraph, that’s exactly what we did with Maloney. You stated earlier in the thread that you didn’t rate him and still don’t. He only got 19 games as manager, and his win and loss ratios were only slightly worse than Montgomery’s just now. After 19 games, they were extremely similar.

Is it not a bit of a double standard to get indignant about folk who have serious doubts about NM after only one window - because managers need time - when you were perfectly happy to see the back of Maloney after only one window and even less time in charge?

At least Montgomery’s had the chance to sign a couple of good players in his window. What Maloney got in January 2022 is enough to make you greet, especially given Boyle was sold.

[Centre Hawf]

We probably have players lined up that the manager wants , maybe like Nisbet or Farrell ( guessing ) . Changing the manager now would just put us back to square one and we are still left with the same problems in we need a clear out and to add some quality to improve us .

There's no guarantees another manager being appointed will be any better or immediately turn us around , he'd need time too just like our current one does though a new one will probably need even more and its a costly business to continually sack managers.

Our manager has had ONE window to improve us and the evidence is there over the last 8 games we have , the recruitment for the January window was very good imo which is another positive sign that McDermott and Monty are working well together .

If we start changing managers after only one transfer window and not accepting that a manager is going to need time to fix a team that's been struggling we won't get any further forward which imo is exactly what's been happening to us the last few year's.

Is that not why we appointed a DOF? So that if we did change the manager we had a constant thread of ideas that didn't need ripped up each time and started again? If he agrees Nisbet and Farrell would be good signings then Monty leaving shouldn't be an issue. If it is then whats the point in McDermott being here?

[easty]

In terms of your last paragraph, that’s exactly what we did with Maloney. You stated earlier in the thread that you didn’t rate him and still don’t. He only got 19 games as manager, and his win and loss ratios were only slightly worse than Montgomery’s just now. After 19 games, they were extremely similar.

Is it not a bit of a double standard to get indignant about folk who have serious doubts about NM after only one window - because managers need time - when you were perfectly happy to see the back of Maloney after only one window and even less time in charge?

At least Montgomery’s had the chance to sign a couple of good players in his window. What Maloney got in January 2022 is enough to make you greet, especially given Boyle was sold.

Maloney was slightly worse with a far far worse squad tae. We’ve got Marcondes, Maolida, Boyle, Youan, Le Fondre, Vente now. Maloney had Jasper, Melkerson, Henderson, Mueller, Scott. It’s scary how bad that squad was up top.

[easty]

If we start changing managers after only one transfer window and not accepting that a manager is going to need time to fix a team that's been struggling we won't get any further forward which imo is exactly what's been happening to us the last few year's.

The last few years - Johnson got 3 windows. Ross got 4. Maloney got 1.

And you were happy we got rid of the guy who only got the 1…

[hibsbollah]

Maloney was slightly worse with a far far worse squad tae. We’ve got Marcondes, Maolida, Boyle, Youan, Le Fondre, Vente now. Maloney had Jasper, Melkerson, Henderson, Mueller, Scott. It’s scary how bad that squad was up top.

Not exactly the famous five.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Maloney was slightly worse with a far far worse squad tae. We’ve got Marcondes, Maolida, Boyle, Youan, Le Fondre, Vente now. Maloney had Jasper, Melkerson, Henderson, Mueller, Scott. It’s scary how bad that squad was up top.

Looking back now that it’s over, it was almost funny how bad that squad was. Going into cup semi finals against Hearts at Hampden with James Scott as your only real option, having to end up relying on an 18 year old laddie who’d never played football on grass :faf: And Sylvester Jasper… Jesus Christ. A truly horrendous footballer.

[Since452]

Looking back now that it’s over, it was almost funny how bad that squad was. Going into cup semi finals against Hearts at Hampden with James Scott as your only real option, having to end up relying on an 18 year old laddie who’d never played football on grass :faf: And Sylvester Jasper… Jesus Christ. A truly horrendous footballer.

There were people who rated Jasper as well. Incredible. Showed how low the bar had fallen. I'll never forget his pitiful performance at Dens Park where he was just jogging about trying to avoid the ball then falling over whenever he had it. That was a really crap time to be a Hibs fan. We really have had to put up with some ***** in recent years.

[Donegal Hibby]

In terms of your last paragraph, that’s exactly what we did with Maloney. You stated earlier in the thread that you didn’t rate him and still don’t. He only got 19 games as manager, and his win and loss ratios were only slightly worse than Montgomery’s just now. After 19 games, they were extremely similar.

Is it not a bit of a double standard to get indignant about folk who have serious doubts about NM after only one window - because managers need time - when you were perfectly happy to see the back of Maloney after only one window and even less time in charge?

At least Montgomery’s had the chance to sign a couple of good players in his window. What Maloney got in January 2022 is enough to make you greet, especially given Boyle was sold.

There is abit of a difference between Monty and Maloney though as one had managed before and had a good record at developing and giving young players a chance , he was also successful too in the league he was manager in. Maloney had no previous knowledge as a manager and was a Rookie .

In interviews when he spent the majority of the time scratching his head and saying UM a lot and looking extremely nervous wasn't giving me any real confidence in him along with signings like Demetri Mitchell he made too .

If your wanting Maloney back I'm sure there's plenty of Wigan fans that would accommodate you and drive him up to ER in a heartbeat as they are now getting sick of exactly the same football we were witnessing too.

I get folk have concerns about Monty though since the new signings have settled in we have seen an improvement in results and performances . If we weren't shafted by some horrendous decisions too we'd probably be comfortably sitting in top 6 and not having this conversation anyhow.

I have concerns about Monty too though I've seen enough in recent weeks to suggest giving him to the summer mighten be a bad option as I think the club also needs some stability.

One of my main concerns is some of the names being put forward too . Roy Keane is now getting discussed again which is madness though I shouldn't exactly be surprised about that as its not that long a go folk wanted Martindale and Mckay . Each to there own opinions though . Mines is we might come out of this alright if we we give Monty more time 👍

[J-C]

Most fans give a manager a chance, you'd made your mind up before he'd even started.

Yep, becomes very tedious after a while.

[Hiber-nation]

One of my main concerns is some of the names being put forward too . Roy Keane is now getting discussed again which is madness though I shouldn't exactly be surprised about that as its not that long a go folk wanted Martindale and Mckay . Each to there own opinions though . Mines is we might come out of this alright if we we give Monty more time 👍

Keane isn't being discussed, the recent posts are about some banter he and some ex-Man U players had about Mikey Stewart. And hardly anyone wanted McKay or Martindale.

Monty doesn't deserve more time if he doesn't make top 6, he's had more quality players in than any other recent manager. No excuses.

[TrinityHFC]

Yep, becomes very tedious after a while.

Says the guy who hated LJ from the moment he arrived…

[Donegal Hibby]

Keane isn't being discussed, the recent posts are about some banter he and some ex-Man U players had about Mikey Stewart. And hardly anyone wanted McKay or Martindale.

Monty doesn't deserve more time if he doesn't make top 6, he's had more quality players in than any other recent manager. No excuses.

There's been a " Get him in " post and a few about him not being a bad manager which for the life of me I can't see why anyone would actually think he was any good btw . Both were mentioned though at the time along with numerous others that were far from impressive.

Yes he has had more quality players than our recent managers and we have seen the results improve since , also performances like the first half against livvy which was as good as we've seen in sometime and I think recently our record is probably as good as anyone's outside the OF .

We should also have more points as a result of errors made by officials which we can't hold the manager responsible for . Not an excuse H-N but facts ! .

There's enough evidence of improvement after one January window ( the hardest one) to suggest that if we give Monty the summer window and his first pre-season at us that he might just very well improve us again without diving into the unknown in search for a new manager again.

[KWJ]

My worry with Monty is that I was excited from the way we played in the first few games - there was a really high tempo while still looking to play with the ball. It was being knocked around the back for a bit but by design. Under Maloney this was a slow process until an obvious pass was on or they were pressured back to the keeper who punted long. Those early days under NM it was passed along the back with some pace looking to take the opportunity to get it forward to the midfield or attack. That seemed to fall away as the games went on, even when we were getting results.

Then there was the change of formation but it looks to me more like it's the players that are winning the games than anything the manager is doing. To not be beating the teams below us with Marcondes, Maolida, Newell, Youan and co in the team would be really poor. I'd go as far to say that I think LJ would've had us on the same or more points right now if he'd stayed and had the same team.

On January recruitment, I'm not sure how much of it is him over BM but not bringing in an experienced centre half was bizarre. We've gotten a bit lucky that Rocky's come back in much better form than he had prior to AFCON.

He's a young manager so there could be improvement there but I'm just not seeing it yet. If we've got money to hand then I'd like us to get someone a bit more experienced in. I'm not that fussed if they have Scottish experience or not.

Top 6 isn't enough. Might as well finish 7th if we're not getting 5th and Europe.

[B.H.F.C]

My worry with Monty is that I was excited from the way we played in the first few games - there was a really high tempo while still looking to play with the ball. It was being knocked around the back for a bit but by design. Under Maloney this was a slow process until an obvious pass was on or they were pressured back to the keeper who punted long. Those early days under NM it was passed along the back with some pace looking to take the opportunity to get it forward to the midfield or attack. That seemed to fall away as the games went on, even when we were getting results.

Then there was the change of formation but it looks to me more like it's the players that are winning the games than anything the manager is doing. To not be beating the teams below us with Marcondes, Maolida, Newell, Youan and co in the team would be really poor. I'd go as far to say that I think LJ would've had us on the same or more points right now if he'd stayed and had the same team.

On January recruitment, I'm not sure how much of it is him over BM but not bringing in an experienced centre half was bizarre. We've gotten a bit lucky that Rocky's come back in much better form than he had prior to AFCON.

He's a young manager so there could be improvement there but I'm just not seeing it yet. If we've got money to hand then I'd like us to get someone a bit more experienced in. I'm not that fussed if they have Scottish experience or not.

Top 6 isn't enough. Might as well finish 7th if we're not getting 5th and Europe.

Not that it gets me terribly excited but finishing 6th as opposed to 7th would be worth a good few quid extra to us with bigger crowds including a home derby and prize money. I think if we get in to the top six we’ll finish better than 6th anyway.

[Since452]

Yep, becomes very tedious after a while.

People in glass houses and all that. You were on here daily calling for LJ to be sacked.

[Paulie Walnuts]

People in glass houses and all that. You were on here daily calling for LJ to be sacked.

I always find it bizarre that people get so upset by others opinions. I’d hazard a guess every one of us on here has likely backed a failing manager longer than other folk did, likewise I’d hazard a guess we’ve all wanted a manager sacked whilst others are still backing them at some stage.

From my own point of view, I never wanted Stubbs sacked. Others did, and that’s fine. I wanted Lennon sacked probably earlier than others did. And that’s fine. I wanted Ross sacked, others didn’t. I wanted Maloney to get longer as I thought our backing of him was nothing short of appalling. Others didn’t. I wanted shot of LJ numerous times over last season whilst others didn’t. I would happily see the back of NM. I’m not going to get myself all worked up, block posters, declare their opinions as tedious, entitled etc as others have. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion and whilst I didn’t agree with a lot of them over all the previous managers, most folk managed to present a reasoned case for why they felt the way they did.

I’ve no issue with anyone who has an opinion on a player or a manager, especially if they can provide a logic for that opinion.

It would be a boring site if we all just had the same opinions as each other.

[Stevie Reid]

There is abit of a difference between Monty and Maloney though as one had managed before and had a good record at developing and giving young players a chance , he was also successful too in the league he was manager in. Maloney had no previous knowledge as a manager and was a Rookie .

In interviews when he spent the majority of the time scratching his head and saying UM a lot and looking extremely nervous wasn't giving me any real confidence in him along with signings like Demetri Mitchell he made too .

If your wanting Maloney back I'm sure there's plenty of Wigan fans that would accommodate you and drive him up to ER in a heartbeat as they are now getting sick of exactly the same football we were witnessing too.

I get folk have concerns about Monty though since the new signings have settled in we have seen an improvement in results and performances . If we weren't shafted by some horrendous decisions too we'd probably be comfortably sitting in top 6 and not having this conversation anyhow.

I have concerns about Monty too though I've seen enough in recent weeks to suggest giving him to the summer mighten be a bad option as I think the club also needs some stability.

One of my main concerns is some of the names being put forward too . Roy Keane is now getting discussed again which is madness though I shouldn't exactly be surprised about that as its not that long a go folk wanted Martindale and Mckay . Each to there own opinions though . Mines is we might come out of this alright if we we give Monty more time 👍

I'm trying hard to follow the logic here. You're strongly advocating that managers can't be expected to improve us immediately, that they need time and we can't be sacking them after only one transfer window - yet we did exactly that with a manager only two years ago, but you were happy with that decision. And your justification for that is that Maloney was a rookie? Surely that's an argument for him needing even more time and support?

All that stuff that you have written about Maloney in interviews could easily be - and indeed has been by many on here - attributed to NM also. I think he comes across as quite awkward and uninspiring when he speaks - not that I really care about that: if he's getting results, how he appears in interviews is of no consequence. I've said previously that I thought Steve Clarke was dour and uninspiring in his interviews when at Killie and in his early days at Scotland - but he can clearly inspire a group of players to do exceptional things.

I am most definitely not wanting Maloney back - but seeing as I am far from taken by NM, who is only marignally better than SM, I think that much was already clear. I found his time in charge to be completely dull and uninspiring and didn't think his preferred method of football would bring us any success in this league. But I feel pretty much the same about NM, albeit with a slight improvement in recent weeks.

It's great that you are backing the manager to the extent that you are - I'll never knock anyone for giving their support to a Hibs manager, and indeed NM will always have mine from the stands for as long as he is here. If he does stay, I obviously hope he goes on to be very successful.

I was just pointing out that it's pretty hypocritical to seem so righteous in your arguments against posters raising doubts about NM, when you were happy not to give the same benefits to Maloney.

[MikeyS]

There's been a " Get him in " post and a few about him not being a bad manager which for the life of me I can't see why anyone would actually think he was any good btw . Both were mentioned though at the time along with numerous others that were far from impressive.

Yes he has had more quality players than our recent managers and we have seen the results improve since , also performances like the first half against livvy which was as good as we've seen in sometime and I think recently our record is probably as good as anyone's outside the OF .

We should also have more points as a result of errors made by officials which we can't hold the manager responsible for . Not an excuse H-N but facts ! .

There's enough evidence of improvement after one January window ( the hardest one) to suggest that if we give Monty the summer window and his first pre-season at us that he might just very well improve us again without diving into the unknown in search for a new manager again.

Post 577 on this thread suggests that we aren't actually improving despite the January signings so what evidence are you using? I've no idea how to multi quote or I'd have copied it in, sorry!

[easty]

Post 577 on this thread suggests that we aren't actually improving despite the January signings so what evidence are you using? I've no idea how to multi quote or I'd have copied it in, sorry!

If you only count the games we won, and the games where we had better players, and ignore the games where it was the referee and VARs fault, then we’re doing amazing. To be fair.

[J-C]

People in glass houses and all that. You were on here daily calling for LJ to be sacked.

Yes after I gave him my backing for months beforehand, it was obvious he had no clue after last summer and it was time to go. You've been anti Montgomery from day one and you've let everyone who'll listen know that on every thread, as I said, tedious.

[B.H.F.C]

Post 577 on this thread suggests that we aren't actually improving despite the January signings so what evidence are you using? I've no idea how to multi quote or I'd have copied it in, sorry!

A blind man can see there is an improvement post January. You’ve got to account for the fact that hardly any of them had played any football so it was never going to be instant. But post January, we had a disaster against St Mirren and a narrow loss to Celtic when they were all just in the door but then went six unbeaten in the league.

We obviously still have our issues defensively but if you think of the level of performance in late December and January (when the damage was done to our season) it’s night and day. People had genuine concerns about us ending up in real bother at that point.

[jeffers]

A blind man can see there is an improvement post January. You’ve got to account for the fact that hardly any of them had played any football so it was never going to be instant. But post January, we had a disaster against St Mirren and a narrow loss to Celtic when they were all just in the door but then went six unbeaten in the league.

We obviously still have our issues defensively but if you think of the level of performance in late December and January (when the damage was done to our season) it’s night and day. People had genuine concerns about us ending up in real bother at that point.

I guess the debate is whether Monty is proving to be a good manager or it’s the quality of players we were able to bring in meant we really had to improve and we would have done so if it had been Maloney, Johnson or him in charge.

[easty]

There is abit of a difference between Monty and Maloney though as one had managed before and had a good record at developing and giving young players a chance , he was also successful too in the league he was manager in. Maloney had no previous knowledge as a manager and was a Rookie .



I think too much is made of NMs success before Hibs. He didn't take over a crap team. He took over a team who'd just finished 3rd on 42 points, 7 points behind the top team.

Then under NM they came 5th on 42 points, 7 points behind the top team.

Next season they finished 2nd on 44 points, 11 points behind the team who finished top.

This season, without him, they're 2nd on 43 points, with 3 games to play, and 3 points behind top.

So before NM and after NM they were/are doing almost exactly as well as they were with him in charge.

[easty]

I guess the debate is whether Monty is proving to be a good manager or it’s the quality of players we were able to bring in meant we really had to improve and we would have done so if it had been Maloney, Johnson or him in charge.

:agree:

I'm genuinely boring myself saying this - so I must be boring everyone else to tears :greengrin - but we sacked Johnson as he wasn't doing a good job with the squad. Montgomery came in and got nothing more out of them. So there was either no point sacking Johnson, or Montgomery was failing.

Getting better results after signing quality like Marcondes and Maolida isn't a surprise as they're very good players, and as you mentioned Maloney and Johnson could've got better performances if they'd had those better players too!

[jeffers]

:agree:

I'm genuinely boring myself saying this - so I must be boring everyone else to tears :greengrin - but we sacked Johnson as he wasn't doing a good job with the squad. Montgomery came in and got nothing more out of them. So there was either no point sacking Johnson, or Montgomery was failing.

Getting better results after signing quality like Marcondes and Maolida isn't a surprise as they're very good players, and as you mentioned Maloney and Johnson could've got better performances if they'd had those better players too!

Pretty much where I’m at. I know there are areas where the squad has deficiencies, but I don’t accept it was worse pre January than Killie’s, St Mirren’s or Dundee’s. I’d be surprised if the board didn’t expect better than Monty has shown when they made the decision to appoint him.

[worcesterhibby]

I'm generally not one for shouting for Managers to go quickly (apart from Maloney who I just thought was entirely out of his depth). But I understood why we got rid of LJ in the end. I just think we need to break this cycle of keeping managers for about 1 season and then dumping them before they have had a few windows and a couple of season to prove what they are about. Everyone can see that we are a better team since Feb, even if results haven't always gone our way. Unless the Black Knights connection can find us a bona fide top class manager with a proven record of success, then I think we should double down and give NM next season.. whether we make top 6 or not.

[B.H.F.C]

I guess the debate is whether Monty is proving to be a good manager or it’s the quality of players we were able to bring in meant we really had to improve and we would have done so if it had been Maloney, Johnson or him in charge.

Any manager will only be as good as the players they’ve got. Better players, and there’s a fair chance you’ll have a better team. If he was getting handed better players and it wasn’t having any impact, then there would be more of a question I think. But it needs to work both ways.

I don’t think Montgomery has done particularly well but I think there are some valid reasons for it whilst there are also some obvious faults with him as well. If it’s as simple as saying that he’s got better players and the improvement is simply down to them then when we were poorer, that must have been down to the poorer players. FWIW I think the truth is somewhere in the middle and he deserves credit for the improvement as well as stick for some **** mistakes prior to that.

[jeffers]

I'm generally not one for shouting for Managers to go quickly (apart from Maloney who I just thought was entirely out of his depth). But I understood why we got rid of LJ in the end. I just think we need to break this cycle of keeping managers for about 1 season and then dumping them before they have had a few windows and a couple of season to prove what they are about. Everyone can see that we are a better team since Feb, even if results haven't always gone our way. Unless the Black Knights connection can find us a bona fide top class manager with a proven record of success, then I think we should double down and give NM next season.. whether we make top 6 or not.

If a manager is showing they are worth persevering with then I agree. But sticking with a manager just because we have sacked previous ones after a short period isn’t a good decision imo. Let’s be honest here outwith the OF our league is pretty poor and it doesn’t take a fantastic side to finish 3rd. There’s no arguing Hearts deserve to be 3rd but they aren’t a great side.

[jeffers]

Any manager will only be as good as the players they’ve got. Better players, and there’s a fair chance you’ll have a better team. If he was getting handed better players and it wasn’t having any impact, then there would be more of a question I think. But it needs to work both ways.

I don’t think Montgomery has done particularly well but I think there are some valid reasons for it whilst there are also some obvious faults with him as well. If it’s as simple as saying that he’s got better players and the improvement is simply down to them then when we were poorer, that must have been down to the poorer players. FWIW I think the truth is somewhere in the middle and he deserves credit for the improvement as well as stick for some **** mistakes prior to that.

That’s true, but a better manager makes more of the players at his disposal. I don’t believe Monty has. You are absolutely spot on though, if we hadn’t improved or even got worse after the January window he’d have had no hiding place. I think most of us felt we were underperforming under Johnson, he was rightly sacked, but I don’t believe we improved under Monty. I know I’m repeating myself, I’m pretty sure the board expected more when they appointed him. Is he showing enough to justify sticking with him ? Not for me.

[007]

I think too much is made of NMs success before Hibs. He didn't take over a crap team. He took over a team who'd just finished 3rd on 42 points, 7 points behind the top team.

Then under NM they came 5th on 42 points, 7 points behind the top team.

Next season they finished 2nd on 44 points, 11 points behind the team who finished top.

This season, without him, they're 2nd on 43 points, with 3 games to play, and 3 points behind top.

So before NM and after NM they were/are doing almost exactly as well as they were with him in charge.

Where does him beating Melbourne City 6-1 in the Grand Final fit into your narrative? You opted not to mention that. 🤔

[Dashing Bob S]

:agree:

I'm genuinely boring myself saying this - so I must be boring everyone else to tears :greengrin - but we sacked Johnson as he wasn't doing a good job with the squad. Montgomery came in and got nothing more out of them. So there was either no point sacking Johnson, or Montgomery was failing.

Getting better results after signing quality like Marcondes and Maolida isn't a surprise as they're very good players, and as you mentioned Maloney and Johnson could've got better performances if they'd had those better players too!

This is true. But I think they invested in Monty because he had more of a long term gameplan which fitted the board's view of where they wanted the club to go. Like them, he was new to it and was learning on the job. There has been some sort of development both on and off the park. Monty probably inherited a demoralised squad, and I think the appointment was always a long-term strategic one, rather than another simple throw of the dice, which has been the defining feature of our appointments. .

[B.H.F.C]

That’s true, but a better manager makes more of the players at his disposal. I don’t believe Monty has. You are absolutely spot on though, if we hadn’t improved or even got worse after the January window he’d have had no hiding place. I think most of us felt we were underperforming under Johnson, he was rightly sacked, but I don’t believe we improved under Monty. I know I’m repeating myself, I’m pretty sure the board expected more when they appointed him. Is he showing enough to justify sticking with him ? Not for me.

Depends how the next week goes. If we get in to the top six, I think we’ll go on to get a European place. If he does that then he deserves the chance to build. Bottom six and he’s done.

I thought the same about LJ this time last year. I never particularly liked him but he had a good end to the season that gave him the chance to build in the summer and I thought he totally wasted the opportunity by not really having any idea of what he wanted to do. The one thing that Montgomery has in his favour, for me, is that I don’t think it’s a huge jump to start turning the number of 2-2 draws we’ve had in to wins. Previously it was one extreme to the other whereas now, we lose pretty rarely except to the big two. As I say, I don’t think it takes a huge amount for us to see a pretty big improvement.

[easty]

Where does him beating Melbourne City 6-1 in the Grand Final fit into your narrative? You opted not to mention that. 🤔

I'd forgot they had that stupid, you win the league but that's not the real competition thing at the end :greengrin

Congratulations to him, great result. Doesn't really change that they were just as good when he took over as they are now after he's gone.

60 games, ***** level, took one of the best sides and got a relative level of performance out of them as the guy before him.

[superfurryhibby]

We’ve played 11 league games since Marcondes and Maolida signed and picked up 13 points, 1.18ppg. Prior to them signing we had picked up 22 in 16 under Montgomery (1.38ppg) and 25 in 20 overall under all managers (1.25ppg). At least that’s what I make it anyway!

If anything, based on results, it’s our form with them that’s costing us top 6, not our form prior. Which is a pretty damning indictment of Montgomery and his ability to get a lot of out a team with some very good players in it.


That’s true, but a better manager makes more of the players at his disposal. I don’t believe Monty has. You are absolutely spot on though, if we hadn’t improved or even got worse after the January window he’d have had no hiding place. I think most of us felt we were underperforming under Johnson, he was rightly sacked, but I don’t believe we improved under Monty. I know I’m repeating myself, I’m pretty sure the board expected more when they appointed him. Is he showing enough to justify sticking with him ? Not for me.

Someone posted that the stats are worse under NM since the close of the January window.

I agree that the players are better than results show and feel that that a better manager would have secured more wins from them. It's a fact that we haven't improved under Monty, our points and league placings testify to that, Johnson did better with an arguably weaker squad.

A poor season overall, no doubt about it.

[JohnM1875]

Depends how the next week goes. If we get in to the top six, I think we’ll go on to get a European place. If he does that then he deserves the chance to build. Bottom six and he’s done.

I thought the same about LJ this time last year. I never particularly liked him but he had a good end to the season that gave him the chance to build in the summer and I thought he totally wasted the opportunity by not really having any idea of what he wanted to do. The one thing that Montgomery has in his favour, for me, is that I don’t think it’s a huge jump to start turning the number of 2-2 draws we’ve had in to wins. Previously it was one extreme to the other whereas now, we lose pretty rarely except to the big two. As I say, I don’t think it takes a huge amount for us to see a pretty big improvement.

Bottom six and he has to go for me.

Even if there has been signs if improvement, they've not been good enough to secure top six which isn't good enough.

I do like the guy though and I've been back and forward this past week about chances of us making the top six, I'm now convinced we will, so I think he stays.

[JohnM1875]

Where does him beating Melbourne City 6-1 in the Grand Final fit into your narrative? You opted not to mention that. 🤔

The narrative from many (including myself) when he came in was he took over a tiny team with no chance of any real success though. Clearly not the case.

I only really looked into it further when I checked how CCM were doing this season and the answer is probably better than under NM all with losing star players.

[007]

I'd forgot they had that stupid, you win the league but that's not the real competition thing at the end :greengrin

Congratulations to him, great result. Doesn't really change that they were just as good when he took over as they are now after he's gone.

60 games, ***** level, took one of the best sides and got a relative level of performance out of them as the guy before him.

It does change it because they'd have to win the Grand Final this year to be as good. And the same applies to the guy before him and, sorry to break it to you, he didn't.

Very easy to dismiss it as not the real competition because you based your comparison before the end of the season. Bit like comparing Hibs managers on where they were at the split and forgetting about the final league positions. :greengrin

[007]

The narrative from many (including myself) when he came in was he took over a tiny team with no chance of any real success though. Clearly not the case.

I only really looked into it further when I checked how CCM were doing this season and the answer is probably better than under NM all with losing star players.

Doing better at this stage doesn't equate to being better at the end. Montgomery won the Grand Final so they'll have to be top at the end of the regular season and also win the Grand Final to have done better.

[One Day Soon]

How he did with CCM is utterly irrelevant to me. The only thing that matters is his record at Hibernian.

Realistically none of our opinions matter either since BK and IG will be the ones who decide his fate, maybe the BKs too.

However I want a manager who will improve us season on season, get us into cup finals, regularly threaten 3rd place in the league and qualify for Europe all while playing attractive football, being passionate about Hibernian and instilling a sense of excitement into the fans and atmosphere at Easter Road. The real question is whether Montgomery is that guy. I really don't think so but I am absolutely gagging to be wrong.

[Hibiza]

Monty doing reasonably fine , time to give a balanced assessment will.be this time / next year . LJ was an embarrassment.

[easty]

It does change it because they'd have to win the Grand Final this year to be as good. And the same applies to the guy before him and, sorry to break it to you, he didn't.

Very easy to dismiss it as not the real competition because you based your comparison before the end of the season. Bit like comparing Hibs managers on where they were at the split and forgetting about the final league positions. :greengrin

It's not like that.

In Australia the winner of the 26 game season is crowned the "Premier", wins the Premier Plate, and automatically qualifies for the Asian Champions League.

The winner of the Grand Final trophy play-off goes into the play-offs for the Asian Champions League. It's a cup competition at the end of the season for the highest placed teams, with 3 rounds max. It's not winning the league.

[Donegal Hibby]

I'm trying hard to follow the logic here. You're strongly advocating that managers can't be expected to improve us immediately, that they need time and we can't be sacking them after only one transfer window - yet we did exactly that with a manager only two years ago, but you were happy with that decision. And your justification for that is that Maloney was a rookie? Surely that's an argument for him needing even more time and support?

All that stuff that you have written about Maloney in interviews could easily be - and indeed has been by many on here - attributed to NM also. I think he comes across as quite awkward and uninspiring when he speaks - not that I really care about that: if he's getting results, how he appears in interviews is of no consequence. I've said previously that I thought Steve Clarke was dour and uninspiring in his interviews when at Killie and in his early days at Scotland - but he can clearly inspire a group of players to do exceptional things.

I am most definitely not wanting Maloney back - but seeing as I am far from taken by NM, who is only marignally better than SM, I think that much was already clear. I found his time in charge to be completely dull and uninspiring and didn't think his preferred method of football would bring us any success in this league. But I feel pretty much the same about NM, albeit with a slight improvement in recent weeks.

It's great that you are backing the manager to the extent that you are - I'll never knock anyone for giving their support to a Hibs manager, and indeed NM will always have mine from the stands for as long as he is here. If he does stay, I obviously hope he goes on to be very successful.

I was just pointing out that it's pretty hypocritical to seem so righteous in your arguments against posters raising doubts about NM, when you were happy not to give the same benefits to Maloney.

I believe in most cases that a manager needs time when he takes over at a club that's been struggling though there is the odd time when you shouldn't like with Shaun Maloney for instance or a cathro but by in large i think most managers should be given longer than under a year and one transfer window , yes .

Shaun Maloney's football was far worse than Monty's imo. I think was it 1 win in 13 games we went under Maloney ? , and before anyone says he hadn't the players which to a degree is true he showed absolutely nothing to suggest he would have even if he had the players either. There's now calls from many Wigan fans for him to go now over lacklustre performances like losing to Fleetwood 4-2 , Cambridge Utd 3-1 and drawing with Burton etc . My god some are even hoping the cricket season starts soon 😂.

As to Monty I agree that he looks awkward at times doing interviews though generally gets his point across and speaks fairly well , abit like Lewis Stevenson imo who also looks abit awkward on interviews too .

Unfortunately like our previous manager though because folk don't like them they'll find something to criticise them about be it their clothes or they slaver , waffle on , say 'thought ' too much or they say ' fink ' instead of ' think ' . The last manager got stick for not playing Jair and now Monty's getting it FOR playing . Who'd be a manager right ?.

For me there's a big difference between Maloney and Monty and if folk think I'm being hypocritical about that then fair enough mate though since the sacking of JR has our football club actually gained any ground 3 managers later ? . At least since the new signings have settled in we can see clear signs of improvement now under Monty and if it hadn't been for some awful decisions we'd also have more points which is another factor that should be taken into account before pressing the panic button if we don't make top 6 .👍

[J-C]

I had never heard of Montgomery prior to him taking the job, I was wanting McInnes and I've given him my full backing so far but I'm now beginning to doubt if he is the right man. There's no doubt the January signings have help and getting certain 1st picks back playing but forgetting about dodgy VAR, we're still nowhere near where we need to or should be. I do wonder how much input Foley and the BK group will have re management, especially when they're investing a large sum of money, good money was spent in January but were still floating around 6/7th, just not good enough. Do I want to go through the whole new manager thing again, no but if it means getting better and being top 4, then yes.

[One Day Soon]

I believe in most cases that a manager needs time when he takes over at a club that's been struggling though there is the odd time when you shouldn't like with Shaun Maloney for instance or a cathro but by in large i think most managers should be given longer than under a year and one transfer window , yes .

Shaun Maloney's football was far worse than Monty's imo. I think was it 1 win in 13 games we went under Maloney ? , and before anyone says he hadn't the players which to a degree is true he showed absolutely nothing to suggest he would have even if he had the players either. There's now calls from many Wigan fans for him to go now over lacklustre performances like losing to Fleetwood 4-2 , Cambridge Utd 3-1 and drawing with Burton etc . My god some are even hoping the cricket season starts soon 😂.

As to Monty I agree that he looks awkward at times doing interviews though generally gets his point across and speaks fairly well , abit like Lewis Stevenson imo who also looks abit awkward on interviews too .

Unfortunately like our previous manager though because folk don't like them they'll find something to criticise them about be it their clothes or they slaver , waffle on , say 'thought ' too much or they say ' fink ' instead of ' think ' . The last manager got stick for not playing Jair and now Monty's getting it FOR playing . Who'd be a manager right ?.

For me there's a big difference between Maloney and Monty and if folk think I'm being hypocritical about that then fair enough mate though since the sacking of JR has our football club actually gained any ground 3 managers later ? . At least since the new signings have settled in we can see clear signs of improvement now under Monty and if it hadn't been for some awful decisions we'd also have more points which is another factor that should be taken into account before pressing the panic button if we don't make top 6 .👍


"speaks fairly well" - No, he doesn't. His interviews are invariably dull and uninformative. Whatever other defence of him may be fair this is just a vast over claim.

"should be taken into account before pressing the panic button if we don't make top 6" - No, they shouldn't. If he can't make the top six over almost an entire season then serious questions have to be asked. It is one thing to relentlessly push this narrative about the impact of suspect decisions in these recent games on our current league position (which in any event it is certainly a contentious argument rather than a definitive one) but it is getting up there with 'there are no American tanks in Baghdad' stuff to be trying to use it to explain away missing top six.

[007]

It's not like that.

In Australia the winner of the 26 game season is crowned the "Premier", wins the Premier Plate, and automatically qualifies for the Asian Champions League.

The winner of the Grand Final trophy play-off goes into the play-offs for the Asian Champions League. It's a cup competition at the end of the season for the highest placed teams, with 3 rounds max. It's not winning the league.

Yeah and I said it's a bit like that and put a smiley.

What I would also add (and our Aussie experts, such as Forza Fred, can correct me if I'm wrong or confirm if I'm right) is that Montgomery was Academy Head Coach and Assistant 1st team Head Coach before he became the 1st team Head Coach and although some good players, like Cummings left, there are still a fair number that came through the academy under Montgomery and are now 1st team regulars so some of the current league success could be credited to him. Plus, CCM were previously a team regularly at or towards the bottom of the league but in recent years now compete at the top end, coinciding with Montgomery's time coaching at the club either as Academy Head Coach, Assistant and Head Coach of the 1st team.

[Paulie Walnuts]

It's not like that.

In Australia the winner of the 26 game season is crowned the "Premier", wins the Premier Plate, and automatically qualifies for the Asian Champions League.

The winner of the Grand Final trophy play-off goes into the play-offs for the Asian Champions League. It's a cup competition at the end of the season for the highest placed teams, with 3 rounds max. It's not winning the league.

Have said the same previously.

Folk make out like CCM are some sort of minnows in Australia. They’re not, they’re one of the more succesful sides. Folk also make out as if he had them as the best team in Australia. He didn’t, he essentially won them a cup whilst being nowhere near it in the league. Not to be sniffed at by any means, but not the same as it’s often made out to be.

[bingo70]

Have said the same previously.

Folk make out like CCM are some sort of minnows in Australia. They’re not, they’re one of the more succesful sides. Folk also make out as if he had them as the best team in Australia. He didn’t, he essentially won them a cup whilst being nowhere near it in the league. Not to be sniffed at by any means, but not the same as it’s often made out to be.

Did they not have the smallest budget and one of the smaller supports?

[Donegal Hibby]

"speaks fairly well" - No, he doesn't. His interviews are invariably dull and uninformative. Whatever other defence of him may be fair this is just a vast over claim.

"should be taken into account before pressing the panic button if we don't make top 6" - No, they shouldn't. If he can't make the top six over almost an entire season then serious questions have to be asked. It is one thing to relentlessly push this narrative about the impact of suspect decisions in these recent games on our current league position (which in any event it is certainly a contentious argument rather than a definitive one) but it is getting up there with 'there are no American tanks in Baghdad' stuff to be trying to use it to explain away missing top six.

That's your opinion ODS which your totally entitled too though it's not one I share . Apart from looking abit awkward at times I've not had any issues with the way he talks or what he wears either. Last manager got it too for different reasons and to me it's just another stick to use .

We have went into games this year missing key players , were we've had to play a 16 year old at RB , a LB at CH and a striker as a 10 . We have also like last year at times had very little options on the bench with at times 2 or 3 kids on it.

First transfer window our manager gets we start improving once the new players settle in , full summer window and a pre-season and there's nothing to suggest we won't improve further under Monty.

There's been nothing suspect about some of the decisions that's went against us btw , alot of them have been totally obvious though I think you know that already.

We can blame him for mistakes he's made which he has though if we are going to bury our heads in the sand to other issues that's been out of his control then I think that's abit harsh tbh .

Again decisions have effected us in games and have / may have cost us enough points were we'd have been comfortably in the top 6 . I don't think this will matter a jot to a few though that's got their minds made up already though .

Anyhow I'm sticking with our manager and hoping we get a good victory tomorrow 🤞👍

[JimBHibees]

That's your opinion ODS which your totally entitled too though it's not one I share . Apart from looking abit awkward at times I've not had any issues with the way he talks or what he wears either. Last manager got it too for different reasons and to me it's just another stick to use .

We have went into games this year missing key players , were we've had to play a 16 year old at RB , a LB at CH and a striker as a 10 . We have also like last year at times had very little options on the bench with at times 2 or 3 kids on it.

First transfer window our manager gets we start improving once the new players settle in , full summer window and a pre-season and there's nothing to suggest we won't improve further under Monty.

There's been nothing suspect about some of the decisions that's went against us btw , alot of them have been totally obvious though I think you know that already.

We can blame him for mistakes he's made which he has though if we are going to bury our heads in the sand to other issues that's been out of his control then I think that's abit harsh tbh .

Again decisions have effected us in games and have / may have cost us enough points were we'd have been comfortably in the top 6 . I don't think this will matter a jot to a few though that's got their minds made up already though .

Anyhow I'm sticking with our manager and hoping we get a good victory tomorrow 🤞👍

Agree and so am i

[matty_f]

Did they not have the smallest budget and one of the smaller supports?

Think Monty said something along the lines of the smallest budget, and youngest squads as well - not sure if he was meaning literally the smallest or amongst the smallest though.

I’m not sure how minnows would be defined but it sounds like saying Livingston aren’t minnows in the Scottish Premiership.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Did they not have the smallest budget and one of the smaller supports?

I’m not sure about budgets and supports, but Sydney FC and Melbourne Victory have won the most domestic honours. It then drops to Melbourne City, Brisbane Roar, CCM who are much of a muchness with CCM winning ‘Champions’ and ‘Premiers’ twice each and being runners up in the ‘Champions’ and ‘Premiers’ 3 times in each in the19 years since the inception of the A League,

So from 18 seasons and 36 honours available, they’ve won 4 and been runners up in 6 and look very likely to at least add to that list of runners up finishes, potentially even winning one of the two again this season. So they’re very often there or thereabouts. It’s not exactly what you’d expect of minnows and them being half decent at their level is clearly far from unheard of.

[Donegal Hibby]

Thought Monty spoke well here :duck:
Also mentions about having a full bench that can have an impact on the game . And injuries we've had this season 🤔.
https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2024/april/05/monty---this-is-a-vital-game-/

[Paulie Walnuts]

Thought Monty spoke well here :duck:
Also mentions about having a full bench that can have an impact on the game . And injuries we've had this season 🤔.
https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2024/april/05/monty---this-is-a-vital-game-/

Not a specific Montgomery related point, but I’m fed up of hearing about injuries. Every team has to deal with them. From a Hibs point of view this season, I can’t say I’ve thought we’ve been that badly hit by injuries.

I think we’ve had folk bemoaning injuries ever since Jack Ross came in the door. It’s a managers job to deal with injuries by making use of his squad, whether that be Jack Ross, Nick Montgomery or Jurgen Klopp. So many managers nowadays desperate to use it to deflect from poor results as if they’re the only ones who’s players are getting injured.

[Unseen work]

Have said the same previously.

Folk make out like CCM are some sort of minnows in Australia. They’re not, they’re one of the more succesful sides. Folk also make out as if he had them as the best team in Australia. He didn’t, he essentially won them a cup whilst being nowhere near it in the league. Not to be sniffed at by any means, but not the same as it’s often made out to be.

The mariners had the lowest budget and the league and finished 2nd behind Melbourne, who they best convincingly in the final.

[Donegal Hibby]

Not a specific Montgomery related point, but I’m fed up of hearing about injuries. Every team has to deal with them. From a Hibs point of view this season, I can’t say I’ve thought we’ve been that badly hit by injuries.

I think we’ve had folk bemoaning injuries ever since Jack Ross came in the door. It’s a managers job to deal with injuries by making use of his squad, whether that be Jack Ross, Nick Montgomery or Jurgen Klopp. So many managers nowadays desperate to use it to deflect from poor results as if they’re the only ones who’s players are getting injured.

No arguments from me there mate , I'm fed up with injuries too though between injuries and players away on international duty we have been stretched abit this season imo . A few times this year we've not really had a bench with players on it that can come on and make an impact.

I think sometimes it's hard for a manager to deal with it though. Look at Newcastle United for example who were flying last year finishing 4th , 19 wins , 14 draws , only 5 defeats compared to this year when their 8th and lost 12 games up to now and 19 goals more than they did for the whole of last season. Did Eddie Howe suddenly become a bad manager ? . No , they just couldn't cope with the injuries they've had . It happens.

[WeeRussell]

The mariners had the lowest budget and the league and finished 2nd behind Melbourne, who they best convincingly in the final.

Pardon me for thinking so, but it sounds like their manager must have done pretty well that season.

[hibsbollah]

Pardon me for thinking so, but it sounds like their manager must have done pretty well that season.

:tutut:

[Paulie Walnuts]

No arguments from me there mate , I'm fed up with injuries too though between injuries and players away on international duty we have been stretched abit this season imo . A few times this year we've not really had a bench with players on it that can come on and make an impact.

I think sometimes it's hard for a manager to deal with it though. Look at Newcastle United for example who were flying last year finishing 4th , 19 wins , 14 draws , only 5 defeats compared to this year when their 8th and lost 12 games up to now and 19 goals more than they did for the whole of last season. Did Eddie Howe suddenly become a bad manager ? . No , they just couldn't cope with the injuries they've had . It happens.

I’d be astonished if every other team in our league couldn’t point to a time this season when they were also dealing with a bench that didn’t offer much. Some of the teams in our league could likely point to a whole squad that means they don’t even have a bench that offers a lot at full strength. You just have to get on with it.

I don’t doubt it’s hard for a manager to deal with. It’s part of their job to deal with it though. You can’t just expect to only be expected to deliver when the stars align to give you a perfect hand. I personally think Eddie Howe is lucky to still be in a job. Is he a bad manager? Not necessarily. If he can’t deal with injuries though then he’s potentially not a good enough manager to be managing a team with the aspirations Newcastle presumably have.

[Donegal Hibby]

I’d be astonished if every other team in our league couldn’t point to a time this season when they were also dealing with a bench that didn’t offer much. You just have to get on with it.

I don’t doubt it’s hard for a manager to deal with. It’s part of their job to deal with it though. You can’t just expect to only be expected to deliver when the stars align to give you a perfect hand. I personally think Eddie Howe is lucky to still be in a job. Is he a bad manager? Not necessarily. If he can’t deal with injuries though then he’s potentially not a good enough manager to be managing a team with the aspirations Newcastle presumably have.

All you can do is get on with it though losing key players or two players that play in one position were your effectively stretched and left with no option but to play a youth player or have a weakened bench due to injuries isn't a reflection on a managers ability imo , its just bad luck I think.

As to Eddie Howe he's shown that he's a top quality manager last season ( and what he did at Bournemouth too) though bad luck with injuries has had a major bearing on this season . As to him being able to cope with them , I don't think any manager could with what he's had at Newcastle have this season .

I think sometimes things go against a football club that's outwith a managers control and as a fan you have to just accept that you didn't get the breaks mate and cut the manager some slack depending on how he's done or is
doing 👍.

[matty_f]

All you can do is get on with it though losing key players or two players that play in one position were your effectively stretched and left with no option but to play a youth player or have a weakened bench due to injuries isn't a reflection on a managers ability imo , its just bad luck I think.

As to Eddie Howe he's shown that he's a top quality manager last season ( and what he did at Bournemouth too) though bad luck with injuries has had a major bearing on this season . As to him being able to cope with them , I don't think any manager could with what he's had at Newcastle have this season .

I think sometimes things go against a football club that's outwith a managers control and as a fan you have to just accept that you didn't get the breaks mate and cut the manager some slack depending on how he's done or is
doing 👍.

That sounds reasonable.

[eastmainsmsh]

Let’s all get behind Monty and Team tomorrow if anyone’s position should be under review it’s Tin tan Kensell

[Unseen work]

Pardon me for thinking so, but it sounds like their manager must have done pretty well that season.

You are pardoned. Especially when you look at their league positions since 2015

2015/2016 - 10th
2016/2017 - 8th
2017/2018 - 10th
2018/2019 - 10th
2019/2020 - 11th
2020/2021 - 3rd
2021/2022 -5th
2022/2023 - 2nd and champions


The league had 10 teams in it until 2019/2020 when it went to 11. So since 2015 they finished bottom 4 times. The last time they finished 2nd and were crowned champions was 2012/2013.

They were only formed in 2004.

Montgomery became head coach in July 2021. In his short spell he took them to their first ever FFA Cup final and then finished 2nd in the league and won the Finals as they call it, beating the team that finished first 6-1.

Think it’s safe to say he done well, no matter the league.

63 games
32 wins
11 draws
20 defeats
50% win ratio

[WeeRussell]

You are pardoned. Especially when you look at their league positions since 2015

2015/2016 - 10th
2016/2017 - 8th
2017/2018 - 10th
2018/2019 - 10th
2019/2020 - 11th
2020/2021 - 3rd
2021/2022 -5th
2022/2023 - 2nd and champions


The league had 10 teams in it until 2019/2020 when it went to 11. So since 2015 they finished bottom 4 times. The last time they finished 2nd and were crowned champions was 2012/2013.

Montgomery became head coach in July 2021.

Think it’s safe to say he done well, no matter the league.

63 games
32 wins
11 draws
20 defeats
50% win ratio

👍

One might even be forgiven for saying his spell there was outstanding.

[ChilliEater]

It's not like that.

In Australia the winner of the 26 game season is crowned the "Premier", wins the Premier Plate, and automatically qualifies for the Asian Champions League.

The winner of the Grand Final trophy play-off goes into the play-offs for the Asian Champions League. It's a cup competition at the end of the season for the highest placed teams, with 3 rounds max. It's not winning the league.

Well, yes and no :greengrin While it seems odd when you come out here, it's the done thing in Aussie sport to have a "home and away" season followed by a "finals series". Nobody really gives 2 ***** about finishing top of the table - in AFL they refer to that as being "Minor Premiers", in the football it's the Premiers Plate - the aim at the start of the season, for most teams, is to qualify for finals. Higher up the table is generally better, as the draw favours the higher finishing teams, but not considered such a big deal. It's becoming champions on Grand Final day that counts - no matter how odd that seems when you've grown up with a typically European league system. So yes - it IS winning the league.

[easty]

Well, yes and no :greengrin While it seems odd when you come out here, it's the done thing in Aussie sport to have a "home and away" season followed by a "finals series". Nobody really gives 2 ***** about finishing top of the table - in AFL they refer to that as being "Minor Premiers", in the football it's the Premiers Plate - the aim at the start of the season, for most teams, is to qualify for finals. Higher up the table is generally better, as the draw favours the higher finishing teams, but not considered such a big deal. It's becoming champions on Grand Final day that counts - no matter how odd that seems when you've grown up with a typically European league system. So yes - it IS winning the league.

Why doesn’t the automatic champions league qualification spot go to the most important title?

[blackpoolhibs]

👍

One might even be forgiven for saying his spell there was outstanding.

Did we not sack a manager with around a 50% win average?

[ChilliEater]

Why doesn’t the automatic champions league qualification spot go to the most important title?

I don't know - and I was surprised to see that that was the case (as a Perth glory fan ACL qualification isn't relevant to me 😒). I'm guessing that's a directive from the Asian governing body but genuinely don't know why. Rightly or wrongly, it's not the way Aussie sports work - the winners of the grand final are the champions.

[WeeRussell]

Did we not sack a manager with around a 50% win average?

Very likely. I’m not even arguing that Monty has been good at Hibs overall.

Just refuting the idea that the work he did in Australia wasn’t exceptional.

[WeeRussell]

I don't know - and I was surprised to see that that was the case (as a Perth glory fan ACL qualification isn't relevant to me 😒). I'm guessing that's a directive from the Asian governing body but genuinely don't know why. Rightly or wrongly, it's not the way Aussie sports work - the winners of the grand final are the champions.

100% - as a follower of NRL 👍

Same way the Super Bowl champions are the only ones that really matter in American football etc etc etc

[Brightside]

Give me a "sounds dull" manager over some of the teapots we have had in the role on the last 10 years or so. Bottom line - results haven't gone his way yet but I'm confident that will come. He needs a full summer with this team, and the chance to bring in more players of the quality that came in during Jan. I don't want to start again. Give him a few years before we press the button.