Vaccine Passports for Easter Road

[Stairway 2 7]

The poster I responded to actually said

"You really need to change the media you read because that is bat **** crazy. Changing dna 😆 rna has been studied for 30 years and it's great it works so well, there is now a hiv vaccine that uses rna that has a lot of hope."

I think they are confusing anti viral therapy with vaccination. There is no HIV vaccine, although there has been a lot of related research and development in attempting to develop one.

The article I quoted said

"There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use"

"The WHO says many aspects of the immune responses caused by DNA vaccines are not yet fully understood. But that has "not impeded significant progress towards the use of this type of vaccine in humans," it says"

From a pro -vaccine article published here in JUly 2020 https://www.dw.com/en/whats-the-science-on-dna-and-rna-vaccines/a-54097063


When will we see gene-based vaccines for COVID-19?

Some DNA vaccines have been approved for veterinary use. And there are many others in clinical trials for human use, including those for SARS-CoV-2.

Many will use what's called an "adaptive clinical trial design" to speed up the process from discovery to development to trial and approval to production.

Charo says adaptive trials are a less "static" approach than conventional ones. They allow researchers to respond to data and adapt as they go along, whereas you would normally take every step in sequence, and over time.

But in a live pandemic, time is at a premium. An adaptive trial design makes it effectively possible to approve a vaccine before all the testing is complete.

"There would be a requirement to do follow-up research to confirm early indications, known as surrogate markers" says Charo, "and if that research fails to confirm those indications, then the drug or vaccine can be withdrawn."

"In any case, you're only likely to see the full effects of a vaccine once it's out in the community. As Doherty puts it, "it's all one enormous experiment. People are trying to be safe, but even a partially effective vaccine might be useful. We'll have to see how that's evaluated by the regulatory bodies and the people making the vaccines."
"

https://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20210902/human-trials-hiv-vaccine-created-with-mrna-technology-begins

Here's an article on the hiv vaccine using mrna that is starting trials 😆

There is also one in trials against cancer
https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/first-patient-dosed-in-biontech-phase-ii-trial-of-mrna-cancer-vaccine/

[green day]

That's too technical for me. How do I find a dowloaded file on my phone?

Depends what kind of phone - if its android, go to your apps (they are in alphabetical order :greengrin) and one will be called something like "Downloads" or "Files" and it will be there as the most recent one.

As MY says, you done need to read the file, you just need to have it.

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20210902/human-trials-hiv-vaccine-created-with-mrna-technology-begins

Here's an article on the hiv vaccine using mrna that is starting trials ��

There is also one in trials against cancer
https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/first-patient-dosed-in-biontech-phase-ii-trial-of-mrna-cancer-vaccine/

So there isn't an HIV Vaccine then, you just made that up?

[nonshinyfinish]

The poster I responded to actually said

"You really need to change the media you read because that is bat **** crazy. Changing dna 😆 rna has been studied for 30 years and it's great it works so well, there is now a hiv vaccine that uses rna that has a lot of hope."

I think they are confusing anti viral therapy with vaccination. There is no HIV vaccine, although there has been a lot of related research and development in attempting to develop one.

To me the phrase 'that has a lot of hope' means they're talking about a vaccine in development. You've obviously interpreted it differently.


The article I quoted said

"There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use"

"The WHO says many aspects of the immune responses caused by DNA vaccines are not yet fully understood. But that has "not impeded significant progress towards the use of this type of vaccine in humans," it says"

From a pro -vaccine article published here in JUly 2020 https://www.dw.com/en/whats-the-science-on-dna-and-rna-vaccines/a-54097063


When will we see gene-based vaccines for COVID-19?

Some DNA vaccines have been approved for veterinary use. And there are many others in clinical trials for human use, including those for SARS-CoV-2.

Many will use what's called an "adaptive clinical trial design" to speed up the process from discovery to development to trial and approval to production.

Charo says adaptive trials are a less "static" approach than conventional ones. They allow researchers to respond to data and adapt as they go along, whereas you would normally take every step in sequence, and over time.

But in a live pandemic, time is at a premium. An adaptive trial design makes it effectively possible to approve a vaccine before all the testing is complete.

"There would be a requirement to do follow-up research to confirm early indications, known as surrogate markers" says Charo, "and if that research fails to confirm those indications, then the drug or vaccine can be withdrawn."

"In any case, you're only likely to see the full effects of a vaccine once it's out in the community. As Doherty puts it, "it's all one enormous experiment. People are trying to be safe, but even a partially effective vaccine might be useful. We'll have to see how that's evaluated by the regulatory bodies and the people making the vaccines."
"

That article and the quotes are from a year ago. There's now a huge amount of data on covid vaccines' safety and efficacy. There are vast swathes of biochemistry that are not fully understood. If the only treatments available were the ones where the entire mechanism is fully understood then loads of medical treatments would disappear overnight. It's all about building up as much data as possible in order to understand the relative risks, and in this case the data shows that the risk of side-effects is miniscule. See also the comments above about long-term side effects and how unlikely they are in the specific case of vaccines.

[Stairway 2 7]

So there isn't an HIV Vaccine then, you just made that up?

I said their is one with hope fingers crossed, its being injected into people this week it's real not water. I said mrna has been studied for 30 years you repeatedly said it wasn't then changed it to I had said applied. You put up a 14 year old article saying mrna wasn't studied enough. You've put up articles from crackpots. The vaccines are safe and have been studied more than any in history. Anti-vax crackpots are going to look dafter as the years go by

[MWHIBBIES]

Jordon forster outed himself as a daftie on twitter on this subject. Human rights violation :faf:

[hhibs]

Go onto the NHS website on your phone, download the PDF to your phone. Go to where you download files and open it. You will see the QR codes at the bottom. You don't need to be able to read the QR code yourself.



Many thanks,most helpful.:thumbsup:

[Santa Cruz]

For anyone unvaxxed wanting their first dose, the vaccination bus is at Morrisons, Piershill today.

https://twitter.com/NHS_Lothian/status/1433724003068301313

[Ryan91]

Jordon forster outed himself as a daftie on twitter on this subject. Human rights violation :faf:

Saw that too, total muppet. Can't remember where I saw it but someone said that "the more someone complains about being oppressed, the less likely they are to actually be oppressed"

[superfurryhibby]

I said their is one with hope fingers crossed, its being injected into people this week it's real not water. I said mrna has been studied for 30 years you repeatedly said it wasn't then changed it to I had said applied. You put up a 14 year old article saying mrna wasn't studied enough. You've put up articles from crackpots. The vaccines are safe and have been studied more than any in history. Anti-vax crackpots are going to look dafter as the years go by

You can read what you said again.

"rna has been studied for 30 years and it's great it works so well, there is now a hiv vaccine that uses rna that has a lot of hope."

There isn't an HIV Vaccine though , is there? We don't know that "it's great that it works so wel|" because none of the "vaccines " you refer to have gone beyond clinical trials, have they?

The guidance from WHO is from 2007, this was referenced at the bottom of the actual article I quoted from. The piece in question is current.

Your reference to crackpots isn't doing you or your attempt at discussion any favours either , nor is your use of emojis. It just makes you come across as smug and arrogant.

[Stairway 2 7]

You can read what you said again.

"rna has been studied for 30 years and it's great it works so well, there is now a hiv vaccine that uses rna that has a lot of hope."

There isn't an HIV Vaccine though , is there? We don't know that "it's great that it works so wel|" because none of the "vaccines " you refer to have gone beyond clinical trials, have they?

The guidance from WHO is from 2007, this was referenced at the bottom of the actual article I quoted from. The piece in question is current.

Your reference to crackpots isn't doing you or your attempt at discussion any favours either , nor is your use of emojis. It just makes you come across as smug and arrogant.

I said mrna is great it works well because it's saved millions of lives already. It's safe and unbelievably effective. If your ill informed ramblings about safety and dna puts 1 person off getting vaccinated, it's on your conscience

[superfurryhibby]

I said mrna is great it works well because it's saved millions of lives already. It's safe and unbelievably effective. If your ill informed ramblings about safety and dna puts 1 person off getting vaccinated, it's on your conscience

I quoted what you said and what you just posted isn't it. Your all over the place.

I may be ill informed, but at least I'm not resorting to making things up, unlike you.

As for the on my conscience gash.......behave yourself and grow up, do they have an emoji for that, lol.

[Stairway 2 7]

I quoted what you said and what you just posted isn't it. Your all over the place.

I may be ill informed, but at least I'm not resorting to making things up, unlike you.

As for the on my conscience gash.......behave yourself and grow up, do they have an emoji for that, lol.

I said mrna has been studied for 30 years you made up I said application. The hiv mrna vaccine is a vaccine whether it is successful we can only hope. Grow up.. its a disease that has killed millions worldwide and thousands of Scots. How many lives would have been saved if the misinformed hadn't listened to dafties online, who knows

[silverhibee]

the fans won't be sitting next to the players on the pitch

They don’t need to be sitting with the fans, but they do need entry in to stadium.

“Vaccine passports will be needed for entry to large scale events” I take that as everyone attending will needed to provide vaccine passport to get entry, journalists scouts security coaching staff and players, Government need to be clearer on this matter.

[hibbysam]

Yes but that 18th is tests done on the 17 of people who roughly caught it on the 12th. The earliest a kid could catch it at school for most kids was the 18th so that wouldn't be on the chart until the 24th generally.

Which is when the numbers really peak. 30k+ off school due to Covid tells me that’s the biggest issue.

[Casey1875]

For those like me who have not had their vaccine but have had covid, I would recommend this podcast/ article from the WHO: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/media-resources/science-in-5/episode-50---do-i-still-need-the-vaccine-if-i-have-covid-19

It has certainly given me food for thought and I would say I am more likely to get my first vaccine when I can.

I am still fundamentally against the passports and think reasoned debate and sharing of information is a better way to change people's minds to have the vaccine rather than coercion.

Thanks to anyone who did share research without being dismissive or rude to anyone questioning their opinion!

[Rumble de Thump]

I quoted what you said and what you just posted isn't it. Your all over the place.

I may be ill informed, but at least I'm not resorting to making things up, unlike you.

As for the on my conscience gash.......behave yourself and grow up, do they have an emoji for that, lol.

The vaccine trial won't go very well if a vaccine hasn't been developed.

[neil7908]

For those like me who have not had their vaccine but have had covid, I would recommend this podcast/ article from the WHO: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/media-resources/science-in-5/episode-50---do-i-still-need-the-vaccine-if-i-have-covid-19

It has certainly given me food for thought and I would say I am more likely to get my first vaccine when I can.

I am still fundamentally against the passports and think reasoned debate and sharing of information is a better way to change people's minds to have the vaccine rather than coercion.

Thanks to anyone who did share research without being dismissive or rude to anyone questioning their opinion!

👍

[The dalmeny]

They don’t need to be sitting with the fans, but they do need entry in to stadium.

“Vaccine passports will be needed for entry to large scale events” I take that as everyone attending will needed to provide vaccine passport to get entry, journalists scouts security coaching staff and players, Government need to be clearer on this matter.

No, because they are working, they cannot work if they if they can’t go to the stadium, they do not have a choice, fans on the other hand do.

[Andy74]

For those like me who have not had their vaccine but have had covid, I would recommend this podcast/ article from the WHO: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/media-resources/science-in-5/episode-50---do-i-still-need-the-vaccine-if-i-have-covid-19

It has certainly given me food for thought and I would say I am more likely to get my first vaccine when I can.

I am still fundamentally against the passports and think reasoned debate and sharing of information is a better way to change people's minds to have the vaccine rather than coercion.

Thanks to anyone who did share research without being dismissive or rude to anyone questioning their opinion!

It isn’t coercion. Getting the vaccine shouldn’t be based on your ability to go to events or not.

It isn’t to force people into getting a vaccine they should be getting anyway, it is about making sure large scale events are as safe as they can be in the circumstances for those who want to go.

[hibbysam]

It isn’t coercion. Getting the vaccine shouldn’t be based on your ability to go to events or not.

It isn’t to force people into getting a vaccine they should be getting anyway, it is about making sure large scale events are as safe as they can be in the circumstances for those who want to go.

I’ve heard at least 2 politicians state on radio this week that this move will hopefully ramp up the vaccination uptake, which is already very high IMO.

But he added: "The benefits of a certification scheme, in terms of a public health intervention, in terms of incentivising vaccination, those benefits outweigh the concerns that still remain."

That was a direct quote from Humza Yousaf for starters.

[Eyrie]

I’ve heard at least 2 politicians state on radio this week that this move will hopefully ramp up the vaccination uptake, which is already very high IMO.

But he added: "The benefits of a certification scheme, in terms of a public health intervention, in terms of incentivising vaccination, those benefits outweigh the concerns that still remain."

That was a direct quote from Humza Yousaf for starters.

It's still optional though.

Just like in the old days you could choose to go to the football with the incentive of seeing Hibs, now you can choose to be vaccinated with the incentive of seeing Hibs.

Choosing not to be vaccinated won't stop you accessing anything essential, but it does mean choosing not to be part of a large crowd at non essential events.

[hibbyfraelibby]

Can I just check one more thing ..I can download the vaccine status letter which has two barcodes in it ..is there anything else you Are downloading ??

The app hasn't been released yet...

[hibbysam]

It's still optional though.

Just like in the old days you could choose to go to the football with the incentive of seeing Hibs, now you can choose to be vaccinated with the incentive of seeing Hibs.

Choosing not to be vaccinated won't stop you accessing anything essential, but it does mean choosing not to be part of a large crowd at non essential events.

Of course it’s optional, hence why there shouldn’t be any limitations on what you can or can’t do without it. Politicians are bungling from one mess to another making it up as they go, and to say they aren’t trying to coerce people, while literally saying they are incentivising the vaccine otherwise you can’t do many activities is wrong.

Im pro vaccine as has been said but im afraid too many people are attacking the wrong groups. The government have literally changed tack at every single turn and we’re told to keep believing them. Brutal!

[Eyrie]

Of course it’s optional, hence why there shouldn’t be any limitations on what you can or can’t do without it. Politicians are bungling from one mess to another making it up as they go, and to say they aren’t trying to coerce people, while literally saying they are incentivising the vaccine otherwise you can’t do many activities is wrong.

Im pro vaccine as has been said but im afraid too many people are attacking the wrong groups. The government have literally changed tack at every single turn and we’re told to keep believing them. Brutal!

Let's be grateful that needing a vaccination to attend a football match is our biggest concern. For perspective on coercion, imagine being a woman in Afghanistan or Texas right now.

[007]

Of course it’s optional, hence why there shouldn’t be any limitations on what you can or can’t do without it. Politicians are bungling from one mess to another making it up as they go, and to say they aren’t trying to coerce people, while literally saying they are incentivising the vaccine otherwise you can’t do many activities is wrong.

Im pro vaccine as has been said but im afraid too many people are attacking the wrong groups. The government have literally changed tack at every single turn and we’re told to keep believing them. Brutal!

Why weren't you making such a fuss when it was only a few media folk allowed in and no fans were?

[hibbysam]

Why weren't you making such a fuss when it was only a few media folk allowed in and no fans were?

Because at that time it was all about the most vulnerable getting vaccinated and getting us back to normal. Now the goalposts carry on changing.

The fact we are more worried about this than the fact there are more than 30k pupils off school due to Covid is really problematic. It’s the young unvaccinated that are ending up in hospital now, that’s their choice. It’s having very little impact on the elderly and vulnerable as far as I can see.

[Stairway 2 7]

Suppose we could argue the rights and wrongs all week. Fact is you need to be vaccinated to see the hibs. I'd happily let them screw a microchip on one arm an ID card on the other and a never tested serum in my napper, if it was the difference of going to the new years Derby or no.

[calumhibee1]

It isn’t coercion. Getting the vaccine shouldn’t be based on your ability to go to events or not.

It isn’t to force people into getting a vaccine they should be getting anyway, it is about making sure large scale events are as safe as they can be in the circumstances for those who want to go.

:agree:

Stopping people from going to large scale events without a vaccine is about keeping the people at these events as safe as you possibly can and stopping a breakout from these events as much as you can. An indirect outcome of it will be that even more people will get vaccinated because they dont want to miss out.

People aren’t being forced to get it much like they’re not forced to get a driving licence. If you don’t want to get a licence, you won’t be driving a car. That’s absolutely your right. Just don’t think you can do it without one.

If you don’t want to get a vaccine, you won’t be going to large scale events. That’s absolutely your right. Just don’t think you can go to a large scale event without one.

[hibbysam]

:agree:

Stopping people from going to large scale events without a vaccine is about keeping the people at these events as safe as you possibly can and stopping a breakout from these events as much as you can. An indirect outcome of it will be that even more people will get vaccinated because they dont want to miss out.

People aren’t being forced to get it much like they’re not forced to get a driving licence. If you don’t want to get a licence, you won’t be driving a car. That’s absolutely your right. Just don’t think you can do it without one.

If you don’t want to get a vaccine, you won’t be going to large scale events. That’s absolutely your right. Just don’t think you can go to a large scale event without one.

Again, are there any stats in Scotland to suggest that those who are vaccinated at these events wouldn’t be safe? Even if the non vaccinated person passed it on to them, they’d still have that high level of protection. And as the numbers show just now, it’s predominantly non vaccinated people in hospitals and not those vaccinated (and the ‘large scale events’ are happening already…)

[tamig]

For anyone unvaxxed wanting their first dose, the vaccination bus is at Morrisons, Piershill today.

https://twitter.com/NHS_Lothian/status/1433724003068301313

Its been there a few days this week. My kids both had their second doses there yesterday. Excellent service.

[Sir David Gray]

Again, are there any stats in Scotland to suggest that those who are vaccinated at these events wouldn’t be safe? Even if the non vaccinated person passed it on to them, they’d still have that high level of protection. And as the numbers show just now, it’s predominantly non vaccinated people in hospitals and not those vaccinated (and the ‘large scale events’ are happening already…)

From where I see it, the idea behind vaccine passports isn't necessarily to protect the vaccinated population.

It's first and foremost an attempt at protecting the health service from becoming overwhelmed by loads of unvaccinated people needing hospital treatment and then needing to put everyone back into lockdown because the NHS is struggling to cope.

These large-scale events will be seen as high risk for transmission, by making vaccination a requirement for attending such events you are reducing the risk of those people who are at the highest risk of developing serious symptoms are not spreading it amongst themselves at these events.

[Stairway 2 7]

Again, are there any stats in Scotland to suggest that those who are vaccinated at these events wouldn’t be safe? Even if the non vaccinated person passed it on to them, they’d still have that high level of protection. And as the numbers show just now, it’s predominantly non vaccinated people in hospitals and not those vaccinated (and the ‘large scale events’ are happening already…)

That's because 91% plus of adults are vaccinated and almost 100% of over 50s. The over 50s would usually account for 90% of hospitalisations. Its simple maths that their would be more vaccinated in as vaccines stop about 97% of hospitalisations.

Vaccinated are far less likely to spread. I won't stop all transmission at the game but it will dramatically reduce it

[hibbysam]

From where I see it, the idea behind vaccine passports isn't necessarily to protect the vaccinated population.

It's first and foremost an attempt at protecting the health service from becoming overwhelmed by loads of unvaccinated people needing hospital treatment and then needing to put everyone back into lockdown because the NHS is struggling to cope.

These large-scale events will be seen as high risk for transmission, by making vaccination a requirement for attending such events you are reducing the risk of those people who are at the highest risk of developing serious symptoms are not spreading it amongst themselves at these events.

Again, they could come out and state this but they don’t. I’ve not seen recent hospital numbers etc - think I heard >75% were unvaccinated younger people in hospital, is it a high number of actual people?

Would the NHS therefore ever be likely to be overwhelmed by people who haven’t been vaccinated? As far as I can make out from the numbers the majority of cases are in very young people - ie school age (>30k off school either positive or close contacts).

[hibbysam]

That's because 91% plus of adults are vaccinated and almost 100% of over 50s. The over 50s would usually account for 90% of hospitalisations. Its simple maths that their would be more vaccinated in as vaccines stop about 97% of hospitalisations.

Vaccinated are far less likely to spread. I won't stop all transmission at the game but it will dramatically reduce it

Exactly my point. So - if the non vaccinated pass onto the vaccinated then the likelihood is nothing will happen? If the non vax pass onto another non vax again, because of their age it’s unlikely to affect them, but in the odd cases where it does then it’s those who are actively choosing not to be vaccinated that’s affected. If they don’t want protected that’s their choice for me.

Maybe seems too simplistic but the fact a vaccinated person is very unlikely to get seriously ill, and we know the younger you are the less likely you are to get seriously ill, means we shouldn’t really be worried about the unvaccinated now.

[Eyrie]

Exactly my point. So - if the non vaccinated pass onto the vaccinated then the likelihood is nothing will happen? If the non vax pass onto another non vax again, because of their age it’s unlikely to affect them, but in the odd cases where it does then it’s those who are actively choosing not to be vaccinated that’s affected. If they don’t want protected that’s their choice for me.

Maybe seems too simplistic but the fact a vaccinated person is very unlikely to get seriously ill, and we know the younger you are the less likely you are to get seriously ill, means we shouldn’t really be worried about the unvaccinated now.

A vaccinated person can still get ill from Covid, and could still get seriously ill even if it is less likely.

And that vaccinated person didn't get any choice in whether they caught Covid from the person who chose not to be vaccinated.

So the choice not to get vaccinate has consequences for many more people than just the person who is unvaccinated.

[Stairway 2 7]

Exactly my point. So - if the non vaccinated pass onto the vaccinated then the likelihood is nothing will happen? If the non vax pass onto another non vax again, because of their age it’s unlikely to affect them, but in the odd cases where it does then it’s those who are actively choosing not to be vaccinated that’s affected. If they don’t want protected that’s their choice for me.

Maybe seems too simplistic but the fact a vaccinated person is very unlikely to get seriously ill, and we know the younger you are the less likely you are to get seriously ill, means we shouldn’t really be worried about the unvaccinated now.

But 3% of a huge number is still a big number. People will still go to hospital. Unvaccinated people with covid give out a much higher viral load than vaccinated positive. So a greater chance of spread at a game if they are let in.

Why should my kids sit next to someone giving out a high viral load. No one is excluded, get vaccinated and we'll see you inside, don't then enjoy ikea

[hibbysam]

A vaccinated person can still get ill from Covid, and could still get seriously ill even if it is less likely.

And that vaccinated person didn't get any choice in whether they caught Covid from the person who chose not to be vaccinated.

So the choice not to get vaccinate has consequences for many more people than just the person who is unvaccinated.

Your first sentence, absolutely. Just like they can still carry and pass on even if it’s less likely. So should we just shut the whole load back down again to remove that risk as well?

The second sentence is irrelevant as said before, nobody gets a choice whether they get Covid or not. Vaccinated, unvaccinated, exempt, not exempt, old, young. But the stats are showing very few vaccinated people are ending up in hospital even though the likelihood is that a load of them are getting it. This hasn’t come into force yet so what is happening now is likely what would happen if the law isn’t passed and I see very little evidence to show the vaccinated are at any sort of high risk by those who aren’t.

That’s all my simplistic opinion though, I’ve done my bit and would certainly encourage others to do the same but I don’t feel they should be excluded for holding opposite views.

[Sir David Gray]

Again, they could come out and state this but they don’t. I’ve not seen recent hospital numbers etc - think I heard >75% were unvaccinated younger people in hospital, is it a high number of actual people?

Would the NHS therefore ever be likely to be overwhelmed by people who haven’t been vaccinated? As far as I can make out from the numbers the majority of cases are in very young people - ie school age (>30k off school either positive or close contacts).

The number currently in hospital in Scotland with a recent case of Covid-19 is almost a third of what it was at the peak in late January this year and we've only just come out of summer, the time of year when the NHS is usually under the least amount of pressure. The number in hospital has also doubled in the space of the last 2 weeks so it doesn't bode well for the upcoming winter period.

There was a stat mentioned the other day that in January this year around 13% of people who caught Covid-19 ended up requiring hospital treatment, today the number is around 2-3%.

The % is a lot smaller but the actual number of daily cases we are seeing right now is around 2.5-3 times higher than it was in January so 3% of 6,711 (today's number) is still around 200 people who are at risk of being hospitalised as opposed to the 13% of the 2,160 who were infected on 15th January (around 280 people).

The majority of those at most risk of being hospitalised are those who are unvaccinated and the biggest risk environment are large-scale events, therefore keeping people most at risk of requiring hospital treatment out of large-scale events, at least until we are at the point where Covid-19 is less prevalent in the community, makes perfect sense to me.

[hibbysam]

The number currently in hospital in Scotland with a recent case of Covid-19 is almost a third of what it was at the peak in late January this year and we've only just come out of summer, the time of year when the NHS is usually under the least amount of pressure. The number in hospital has also doubled in the space of the last 2 weeks so it doesn't bode well for the upcoming winter period.

There was a stat mentioned the other day that in January this year around 13% of people who caught Covid-19 ended up requiring hospital treatment, today the number is around 2-3%.

The % is a lot smaller but the actual number of daily cases we are seeing right now is around 2.5-3 times higher than it was in January so 3% of 6,711 (today's number) is still around 200 people who are at risk of being hospitalised as opposed to the 13% of the 2,160 who were infected on 15th January (around 280 people).

The majority of those at most risk of being hospitalised are those who are unvaccinated and the biggest risk environment are large-scale events, therefore keeping people most at risk of requiring hospital treatment out of large-scale events, at least until we are at the point where Covid-19 is less prevalent in the community, makes perfect sense to me.

The biggest cause of infection right now is the schools being open. They aren’t even close to closing them yet. To me the vaccine passport is a smokescreen. It won’t help the cases IMO due to the schools being open and kids openly passing the virus between them and taking it home.

Big events haven’t been seen as the cause of current hospitalisations, therefore why that would suddenly become the case in a few weeks is a stretch.

English schools go back shortly and I’ve no doubt we will see their cases rocket as well. 30k off schools and barely a mention of that.

Also, it’s only a few short weeks since the restrictions were eased even though cases were starting to rise slowly. We were told this wasn’t an issue as the vaccination programme was taking care of it. To have over 90% of the population vaccinated is outstanding and going by what we’ve been told all along, that is more than enough to allow us to carry on with our lives and ‘live with the virus’.

[blackpoolhibs]

Those who are not vaccinated and don't want to be, are passing it to each other, maybe most are not seriously ill, but they are keeping this virus going. It's only a matter of time before they produce a virus that the vaccine won't touch. And remember kids, you don't stay kids forever.

[The dalmeny]

To have over 90% of the population vaccinated is outstanding and going by what we’ve been told all along, that is more than enough to allow us to carry on with our lives and ‘live with the virus’.

My last interaction in this only 68 % (phs/nhs scot figs) are fully vaccinated and 75% single You just keep manipulating stuff to fit your agenda

[neil7908]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9956305/Ministers-set-impose-vaccine-passports-mass-events.html

UK Govt taking almost exactly the same approach as SG it seems. I realise this won't change the minds of those opposed, but surely the fact its being implemented by two Govt's with very different political outlooks is an indication there is solid reasoning behind it?

[King Cosell]

F*** the SNP

[Eyrie]

Your first sentence, absolutely. Just like they can still carry and pass on even if it’s less likely. So should we just shut the whole load back down again to remove that risk as well?

The second sentence is irrelevant as said before, nobody gets a choice whether they get Covid or not. Vaccinated, unvaccinated, exempt, not exempt, old, young. But the stats are showing very few vaccinated people are ending up in hospital even though the likelihood is that a load of them are getting it. This hasn’t come into force yet so what is happening now is likely what would happen if the law isn’t passed and I see very little evidence to show the vaccinated are at any sort of high risk by those who aren’t.

That’s all my simplistic opinion though, I’ve done my bit and would certainly encourage others to do the same but I don’t feel they should be excluded for holding opposite views.

The second part is extremely relevant.

Everyone is at much higher risk of catching Covid from someone who chooses to be unvaccinated than from someone who is vaccinated. That is why it makes sense to be careful who is able to attend non-essential events with a large number of people present. The unvaccinated person has no more right to be at such events than anyone else, but everyone attending has the right to be as safe as possible, which is why it is reasonable to expect that those attending have been vaccinated which minimises the risk each presents.

And remember, it is only large non-essential events that are affected. Those who choose to be unvaccinated will still be able to buy their groceries, go to work, see their GP etc. It's their choice that means they can't attend a gig or football game, in the same way that deciding the ticket price is too high means they wouldn't be able to attend.

As an aside, I bought a ticket for the Rijeka game which gave me the right to attend, but I didn't go because I had a cough. I know that cough is my usual persistant background cough but it would have been unfair on those sitting near me to be worried by my occasional coughing during the match.

[at last 61]

This vaccine will in time be like the measles vaccine and polio. Etc we will all have to have it sooner than later if everyone gets the vaccine we can and will get back to normal life. Not good timing by governments they should have made this compulsory months ago but like normal they waited too long,I can wholeheartedly recommend NOT getting this virus as it’s totally changed my life and would not want anyone to contact it,even if they are jambos

[hibbysam]

My last interaction in this only 68 % (phs/nhs scot figs) are fully vaccinated and 75% single You just keep manipulating stuff to fit your agenda

Public health Scotland have said last week that 90.9% of over 18s have had 1 dose, and 80.6% their second dose. Now I’m not manipulating anything, just going by what they are saying, unless I’m interpreting it wrong…

[calumhibee1]

Public health Scotland have said last week that 90.9% of over 18s have had 1 dose, and 80.6% their second dose. Now I’m not manipulating anything, just going by what they are saying, unless I’m interpreting it wrong…

You hadn’t mentioned over 18s when you said over 90% of the population though which isn’t the case. Based on what you said, the reply to you was correct. Based on this post, you’re now also correct.

[basehibby]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9956305/Ministers-set-impose-vaccine-passports-mass-events.html

UK Govt taking almost exactly the same approach as SG it seems. I realise this won't change the minds of those opposed, but surely the fact its being implemented by two Govt's with very different political outlooks is an indication there is solid reasoning behind it?

It's an indication they are operating in lockstep - as has been more or less the case all along. The perennially glaikit will see nothing sinister about this at all. Anyone familiar with the WEF Agenda 2021/2030 etc will be increasingly disturbed.

[calumhibee1]

It's an indication they are operating in lockstep - as has been more or less the case all along. The perennially glaikit will see nothing sinister about this at all. Anyone familiar with the WEF Agenda 2021/2030 etc will be increasingly disturbed.

Or the non-paranoid will see the sensible decision being made rather than something sinister.

[tamig]

F*** the SNP

**** your Camelot.

[hibbysam]

You hadn’t mentioned over 18s when you said over 90% of the population though which isn’t the case. Based on what you said, the reply to you was correct. Based on this post, you’re now also correct.

I’ve mentioned it multiple times in the thread, however I wasn’t even aware under 18s could be vaccinated now.

[Moulin Yarns]

**** your Camelot.

Maybe we should get round the table? 😉

[King Cosell]

It's an indication they are operating in lockstep - as has been more or less the case all along. The perennially glaikit will see nothing sinister about this at all. Anyone familiar with the WEF Agenda 2021/2030 etc will be increasingly disturbed.

"You'll own nothing, and you'll be happy."

[green day]

F*** the SNP

Would you rather we had that useless chinless **** of a *****tain Douglas Ross running the country?

As someone has mentioned above, this will come about in England as well, its not a political issue its public health.

[calumhibee1]

I’ve mentioned it multiple times in the thread, however I wasn’t even aware under 18s could be vaccinated now.

16-18 can be.

[Santa Cruz]

16-18 can be.

Over 53% of at risk 12-15 year olds have been vaccinated now. Think that group was initially about 4,000 kids but will be larger now after the JCVI added more underlying conditions to the priority list yesterday.

[hibbysam]

16-18 can be.

Every days a school day!!

[Mr Grieves]

**** your Camelot.

:greengrin:

[Rumble de Thump]

It's very much a first world problem. Billions of people in poorer nations don't have access to a vaccine but desperately want them. Then some people in the UK are completely against the vaccination and or/vaccine passports because 'human rights', 'slippery slope' etc. The amount of misinformation around the coronavirus and the vaccination, along with some people's eagerness to spread that misinformation, has been quite scary.

[King Cosell]

**** your Camelot.

:grr:

[Ronniekirk]

"You'll own nothing, and you'll be happy."

This notion you won’t own the house you have bought is just nonsense Are people really going to allow that to happen
We are so wedded to home ownership in this country



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dashing Bob S]

**** your Camelot.

King Arthur of gam a lot

[neil7908]

Would you rather we had that useless chinless **** of a *****tain Douglas Ross running the country?

As someone has mentioned above, this will come about in England as well, its not a political issue its public health.

Yup. Scotland has moved before UK Govt here so I'll be very interested to hear what Ross has to say when Boris announces this for rUK

[Zambernardi1875]

People who are double vaccinated but still scared to go to the football surrounded by unvaccinated fans should stay at home.

[Peevemor]

People who are double vaccinated but still scared to go to the football surrounded by unvaccinated fans should stay at home.Even though they're in the majority?

[Zambernardi1875]

Even though they're in the majority?

The ones that are still frightened of catching it aren’t

[MWHIBBIES]

The ones that are still frightened of catching it aren’t

Mate, covid kills people, everyone should be frightened of catching it.

[ElginHibbie]

Yup. Scotland has moved before UK Govt here so I'll be very interested to hear what Ross has to say when Boris announces this for rUK

Douglas Ross MP will be all for it whereas Douglas Ross MSP will still think it's a terrible idea

[Peevemor]

The ones that are still frightened of catching it aren’tHow do you know?

In any case you're missing the point. If no controls are introduced then theoretically there could be 100% non vaccinated people in attendance.

I suppose you see no problem with that?

[Moulin Yarns]

People who are double vaccinated but still scared to go to the football surrounded by unvaccinated fans should stay at home.

Are you really saying all the millions of people who have done the right thing should put their lives on hold because of the selfish minority??? Get a grip!!

[Zambernardi1875]

How do you know?

In any case you're missing the point. If no controls are introduced then theoretically there could be 100% non vaccinated people in attendance.

I suppose you see no problem with that?

Hearts away sold out in 10mins without the need for vaccine passports. The majority of fans don’t care it’s a tiny minority on here it seems having hissy fits and trying to push you’re wee agenda on everyone else. If you’re scared after getting double vaccinated then that’s you’re problem. And stop wearing a mask when you’re driving alone

[Zambernardi1875]

Are you really saying all the millions of people who have done the right thing should put their lives on hold because of the selfish minority??? Get a grip!!

Why are the people not getting vaccinated selfish, you pushing your agenda on others is selfish. Seems guys on here would rather a doubled vaccinated sex offender sitting beside them than a normal fan. Grow up

[Zambernardi1875]

Mate, covid kills people, everyone should be frightened of catching it.

If you’re frightened after getting double jabbed then that’s you’re problem. If you think it saves you then nothing to worry about

[Rumble de Thump]

Hearts away sold out in 10mins without the need for vaccine passports. The majority of fans don’t care it’s a tiny minority on here it seems having hissy fits and trying to push you’re wee agenda on everyone else. If you’re scared after getting double vaccinated then that’s you’re problem. And stop wearing a mask when you’re driving alone

Is not wanting to die from a virus and not wanting to cause the death of others actually a 'wee agenda'?

[Peevemor]

Hearts away sold out in 10mins without the need for vaccine passports. The majority of fans don’t care it’s a tiny minority on here it seems having hissy fits and trying to push you’re wee agenda on everyone else. If you’re scared after getting double vaccinated then that’s you’re problem. And stop wearing a mask when you’re driving alone

I have no agenda - big or small.

I haven't had any hissy fits.

I'm not scared of being infected and that's not the reason why I think Covid passports should be introduced for attending matches.

I never wear a mask when alone - driving or not.

Since the figures are still heading the wrong way, the government will look to avoid large groups of non vaccinated people coming together. In terms of football that leaves a choice of either closing the grounds again or requiring proof of vaccination.

Is that simple enough for you to understand, or are you just going to come back with more insults?

[Zambernardi1875]

Is not wanting to die from a virus and not wanting to cause the death of others actually a 'wee agenda'?

You’re double jabbed no need to worry fella 👍

[Rumble de Thump]

You’re double jabbed no need to worry fella 👍

Doesn't make sense matey.

[CapitalGreen]

Hearts away sold out in 10mins without the need for vaccine passports. The majority of fans don’t care it’s a tiny minority on here it seems having hissy fits and trying to push you’re wee agenda on everyone else. If you’re scared after getting double vaccinated then that’s you’re problem. And stop wearing a mask when you’re driving alone

Seems like someone is having a wee hissy fit because they’re scared to get vaccinated.

Enjoy watching our games on a stream fella, I’ll be at Easter Road watching the boys 😎

[neil7908]

If you’re frightened after getting double jabbed then that’s you’re problem. If you think it saves you then nothing to worry about

Can I ask how old you are? And do you have any pre existing health conditions that mean you are more likely to suffer ill effects from covid?

[Moulin Yarns]

Why are the people not getting vaccinated selfish, you pushing your agenda on others is selfish. Seems guys on here would rather a doubled vaccinated sex offender sitting beside them than a normal fan. Grow up

You came on and tried to push your anti vaccine agenda on others, all the replies to your senseless posts show that you are in the minority and will be the one who has to stay at home.

Unless of course you have actually been vaccinated, in which case your agenda is hidden.

[Zambernardi1875]

Seems like someone is having a wee hissy fit because they’re scared to get vaccinated.

Enjoy watching our games on a stream fella, I’ll be at Easter Road watching the boys 😎

I am vaccinated 😂😂

[Zambernardi1875]

You came on and tried to push your anti vaccine agenda on others, all the replies to your senseless posts show that you are in the minority and will be the one who has to stay at home.

Unless of course you have actually been vaccinated, in which case your agenda is hidden.

I’m not pushing an anti vaccine agenda. The scared double vaccinated on here. As I said at the start if you’re scared of being in attendance with fans who aren’t jabbed then stay home.

[Moulin Yarns]

I’m not pushing an anti vaccine agenda. The scared double vaccinated on here. As I said at the start if you’re scared of being in attendance with fans who aren’t jabbed then stay home.

To which I, and others, have said, why should the millions of people who have done everything they can to be safe and protect themselves and others be the ones who lose out and have to stay home, while the unvaccinated minority are given the freedom to do as they please?

A reasonable question to ask.

I think you must be one of the people who don't want to be restricted by the use of the vaccine passport.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I’m not pushing an anti vaccine agenda. The scared double vaccinated on here. As I said at the start if you’re scared of being in attendance with fans who aren’t jabbed then stay home.


seriously, how ignorant

[Stairway 2 7]

I’m not pushing an anti vaccine agenda. The scared double vaccinated on here. As I said at the start if you’re scared of being in attendance with fans who aren’t jabbed then stay home.

Why should they keep the selfish or uniformed home. Vaccination means your about 97% less likely to be hospitalised. They are unbelievably good but not miracles, you can still die after catching. Your less likely to catch if sat next to someone who is vaccinated, so the vast majority would prefer they stayed home or got vaccinated

[Zambernardi1875]

To which I, and others, have said, why should the millions of people who have done everything they can to be safe and protect themselves and others be the ones who lose out and have to stay home, while the unvaccinated minority are given the freedom to do as they please?

A reasonable question to ask.

I think you must be one of the people who don't want to be restricted by the use of the vaccine passport.

You don’t HAVE to stay at home. Have you’re freedoms do as you please but if you’re frightened of catching it after being double vaccinated then maybe it’s you who should stay at home. Simple really

[CockneyRebel]

seriously, how ignorant

:thumbsup:

[Moulin Yarns]

People who are double vaccinated but still scared to go to the football surrounded by unvaccinated fans should stay at home.

You definitely said that we should stay at home. Stop trying to backtrack with your moronic ideas.

[flash]

You don’t HAVE to stay at home. Have you’re freedoms do as you please but if you’re frightened of catching it after being double vaccinated then maybe it’s you who should stay at home. Simple really

People who are refusing to do so should just get vaccinated.
All they will feel is a bit of a prick.

[Moulin Yarns]

You don’t HAVE to stay at home. Have you’re freedoms do as you please but if you’re frightened of catching it after being double vaccinated then maybe it’s you who should stay at home. Simple really

I'm not sure what sources you use to get your information but it is clear that you don't have any insight into the covid pandemic.

You can be double vaccinated and still catch Covid.

You can be double vaccinated and still be hospitalised with covid.

You can be double vaccinated and still die from covid.


By excluding the people who have not been vaccinated is the most effective way to reduce the risk of the above.

So, to be clear, the only people who should be allowed to football matches must show that they have been double vaccinated, and that means downloading your vaccine passport.

If you don't like it then tough.

[Zambernardi1875]

You definitely said that we should stay at home. Stop trying to backtrack with your moronic ideas.

Yes if you’re in the minority of the scared who are double jabbed and still worry they will get Covid then stay home. Not everyone who is double jabbed, difference mate.

[Andy74]

Yes if you’re in the minority of the scared who are double jabbed and still worry they will get Covid then stay home. Not everyone who is double jabbed, difference mate.

This is certainly outing a few absolute idiots.

I don’t think many people who have been vaccinated are ‘scared’. I think the majority will be rightfully mindful that there is a very deadly virus still going about and that their vaccination status doesn’t guarantee anything for them or the other people they will come into contact with.

Getting some comfort that the people around you at large scale events have also been vaccinated is a sensible thing.

It is very clear that getting vaccinated is the right thing to do. If anyone chooses not to then they can’t expect to be able to return to the same things as normal. It’s a very easy thing just to get it done.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes if you’re in the minority of the scared who are double jabbed and still worry they will get Covid then stay home. Not everyone who is double jabbed, difference mate.

I notice that you chose not to reply to my next post, so to help you out....


I'm not sure what sources you use to get your information but it is clear that you don't have any insight into the covid pandemic.

You can be double vaccinated and still catch Covid.

You can be double vaccinated and still be hospitalised with covid.

You can be double vaccinated and still die from covid.


By excluding the people who have not been vaccinated is the most effective way to reduce the risk of the above.

So, to be clear, the only people who should be allowed to football matches must show that they have been double vaccinated, and that means downloading your vaccine passport.

If you don't like it then tough.

For some unknown reason you seem to be advocating unvaccinated should be allowed into football grounds. Please explain your reasoning behind this?

[Just Alf]

You don’t HAVE to stay at home. Have you’re freedoms do as you please but if you’re frightened of catching it after being double vaccinated then maybe it’s you who should stay at home. Simple reallyOh ma sides.... I think some folks never watch/read the news and don't have a clue about the real world.

Simply IMHO of course

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh ma sides.... I think some folks never watch/read the news and don't have a clue about the real world.

Simply IMHO of course

I'm wondering why anyone would use the name of a professional footballer who managed 122 games in 11 years in the game 🙄

[calumhibee1]

Yes if you’re in the minority of the scared who are double jabbed and still worry they will get Covid then stay home. Not everyone who is double jabbed, difference mate.

Lol.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm wondering why anyone would use the name of a professional footballer who managed 122 games in 11 years in the game 🙄

And helped cost us the 4-4 hearts game

[pedroorange1875]

A vaccinated person can still get ill from Covid, and could still get seriously ill even if it is less likely.

And that vaccinated person didn't get any choice in whether they caught Covid from the person who chose not to be vaccinated.

So the choice not to get vaccinate has consequences for many more people than just the person who is unvaccinated.

Whats your counter arguement when the vaccinated person gets it from another vaccinated person without symptoms because of the high protection and goes to hospital etc....2 passports?

[Northernhibee]

Whats your counter arguement when the vaccinated person gets it from another vaccinated person without symptoms because of the high protection and goes to hospital etc....2 passports?

What needs to be argued against that, I think it’s always openly been touted by a possibility, but it’s much less likely that person will get seriously ill or even catch it from a carrier.

[calumhibee1]

Whats your counter arguement when the vaccinated person gets it from another vaccinated person without symptoms because of the high protection and goes to hospital etc....2 passports?

There is no argument against it. It happens.

It’s just multiple times less likely to happen and multiple times less likely to lead to hospitalisation and multiple times less likely to lead to death.

The fact that this keeps getting trotted out by the folk who are so against speaks absolute volumes.

[Eyrie]

Whats your counter arguement when the vaccinated person gets it from another vaccinated person without symptoms because of the high protection and goes to hospital etc....2 passports?

What's your argument that it's acceptable for an unvaccinated person to give Covid to another person (vaccinated or not), which is far far more likely to happen than the scenario you've suggested?

[wookie70]

What's your argument that it's acceptable for an unvaccinated person to give Covid to another person (vaccinated or not), which is far far more likely to happen than the scenario you've suggested?


Assuming a like for like the scenario of course. I know lots of people that said "that is me safe" when they were vaccinated and completely changed their behaviour. Some people who haven't taken the vax(I'm not talking the 5g and Bill Gates lunatics) have considered the evidence and decided they like their chances better not taking it and using their own judgement on what risks to take. They may decide that they will not go anywhere that involves contact but can't bear to miss their fitba team. They buy a ticket for the far side of the east or west so they can sit on their own and arrive early and leave late. Therefore the only place they can Covid is the football and the chances of catching in are tiny given their mitigation. The chances of them passing it on are zero.

Meanwhile someone who is double vaxxed goes to the pub and shops every day, spends loads of time in their mates house with their family where there are schoolkids at primary and secondary schools. Who is the biggest risk to their fellow fan. The one who changed behaviour and took chances or the one who calculated personal risk and decided ER was worth it as long as they never went anywhere else.

The above scenario is at the extreme side but my behaviour hardly altered when vaccinated. ER was really my biggest guilty pleasure and the main thing that changed. I hardly go in a shop, my time outside the house is away from others and nearly always outside. If I chose not to get vaccinated that would have been the same. Meanwhile I have friends who are in contact with others constantly, playing sport, going to the pub, travelling on public transport. They don't even consider the risk of getting Covid or passing it on as they are vaccinated. The behavioural change has to be factored in to any decision when you are essentially separating citizens into entitled and unentitled

[pedroorange1875]

Its not an arguement, the simple fact is it can happen either way, passport or not. Some of the stuff on here is unbelieveable and im not interested in getting into ill informed discussions either side. some of the info on here is interesting either side also. Im happy with my full informed balanced decision for my body. I will be a minimal threat to anyone. Passports are a disgrace in my opinion.

[Aim Here]

I’m not pushing an anti vaccine agenda. The scared double vaccinated on here. As I said at the start if you’re scared of being in attendance with fans who aren’t jabbed then stay home.

Contagious diseases aren't transactional. Arguments about freedom - let alone pathetic appeals to machismo by calling people who disagree with you 'scared' - don't apply.

Contagious diseases are a loosely environmental issue - they affect everyone and everything around you. So you should act so as to not make the everyday environment for your neighbours more potentially lethal.

You can't stop water or air pollution by telling people they can just not breathe or drink water if they don't like being poisoned and you can't deal with Covid by making arguments about individual freedom and telling them to opt out of catching it. People *can't* opt out of society - and there are some people who reasonably can't even get vaccinated for whatever reason.

Companies are forcibly prevented from selling food or pumping toxic chemicals into the water system or atmosphere. Anyone arguing for the freedom for businesses to do so should be roundly told to get to ******.

And for the exact same reasons, people who haven't taken the main set of available precautions to stop everyone around them from dying of Covid should be prevented from engaging in unnecessary activity where there's a big risk spreading the disease to each other. Your freedom to be a self-actualizing plague rat is not a freedom anyone should allow you to have. In this particular case, **** your freedom.

[calumhibee1]

Contagious diseases aren't transactional. Arguments about freedom - let alone pathetic appeals to machismo by calling people who disagree with you 'scared' - don't apply.

Contagious diseases are a loosely environmental issue - they affect everyone and everything around you. So you should act so as to not make the everyday environment for your neighbours more potentially lethal.

You can't stop water or air pollution by telling people they can just not breathe or drink water if they don't like being poisoned and you can't deal with Covid by making arguments about individual freedom and telling them to opt out of catching it. People *can't* opt out of society - and there are some people who reasonably can't even get vaccinated for whatever reason.

Companies are forcibly prevented from selling food or pumping toxic chemicals into the water system or atmosphere. Anyone arguing for the freedom for businesses to do so should be roundly told to get to ******.

And for the exact same reasons, people who haven't taken the main set of available precautions to stop everyone around them from dying of Covid should be prevented from engaging in unnecessary activity where there's a big risk spreading the disease to each other. Your freedom to be a self-actualizing plague rat is not a freedom anyone should allow you to have. In this particular case, **** your freedom.

Bravo 👏🏼

[calumhibee1]

Its not an arguement, the simple fact is it can happen either way, passport or not. Some of the stuff on here is unbelieveable and im not interested in getting into ill informed discussions either side. some of the info on here is interesting either side also. Im happy with my full informed balanced decision for my body. I will be a minimal threat to anyone. Passports are a disgrace in my opinion.

The simple fact is that it can happen either way but it’s a hell of a lot more likely to happen from and/or to unvaccinated people.

Sober drivers can crash cars. Drink drivers are much more likely to crash cars than sober ones though. It doesn’t mean we should sack off drink drive limits because sober people are at a risk of crashing as well.

[neil7908]

Assuming a like for like the scenario of course. I know lots of people that said "that is me safe" when they were vaccinated and completely changed their behaviour. Some people who haven't taken the vax(I'm not talking the 5g and Bill Gates lunatics) have considered the evidence and decided they like their chances better not taking it and using their own judgement on what risks to take. They may decide that they will not go anywhere that involves contact but can't bear to miss their fitba team. They buy a ticket for the far side of the east or west so they can sit on their own and arrive early and leave late. Therefore the only place they can Covid is the football and the chances of catching in are tiny given their mitigation. The chances of them passing it on are zero.

Meanwhile someone who is double vaxxed goes to the pub and shops every day, spends loads of time in their mates house with their family where there are schoolkids at primary and secondary schools. Who is the biggest risk to their fellow fan. The one who changed behaviour and took chances or the one who calculated personal risk and decided ER was worth it as long as they never went anywhere else.

The above scenario is at the extreme side but my behaviour hardly altered when vaccinated. ER was really my biggest guilty pleasure and the main thing that changed. I hardly go in a shop, my time outside the house is away from others and nearly always outside. If I chose not to get vaccinated that would have been the same. Meanwhile I have friends who are in contact with others constantly, playing sport, going to the pub, travelling on public transport. They don't even consider the risk of getting Covid or passing it on as they are vaccinated. The behavioural change has to be factored in to any decision when you are essentially separating citizens into entitled and unentitled

Your scenario with Mr/Mrs unvaccinated is relying on lot of things out of their control.

What if the game is a sell out and their quiet seat at the end of the stand suddenly isn't so? What if they need to go to the toilet and their is a queue? What if there is an emergency and they have to evacuate the stadium quickly?

In terms of transmission, what if they go to ER on a Saturday, pick up covid then and then attend the next game on a Wednesday?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Gilmore wide with a great chance


Isreal 3-2

[calumhibee1]

Gilmore wide with a great chance

Not being able to get into ER without a vaccine passport playing on his mind you reckon?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Not being able to get into ER without a vaccine passport playing on his mind you reckon?




:confused smiley :hmmm:

[cabbageandribs1875]

McGregor on for SJM

Adams on for Nisbet

[Peevemor]

Once again, the simple fact is that we're getting to the stage where the powers that be won't tolerate 10, 20 or 50k non vaccinated people congregating inside a football stadium.

The only way to avoid this is either to either close the stadiums again or demand proof of vaccination on entry.

I don't see what there is to argue about.

[cabbageandribs1875]

4-2 Israel same scoreline they beat austria in 2019

[calumhibee1]

McGregor on for SJM

Adams on for Nisbet

Wrong thread :greengrin

[Peevemor]

McGregor on for SJM

Adams on for NisbetHaha. Wrong thread.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Wrong thread :greengrin


Haha. Wrong thread.


lol oh my goodness :duck:

[wookie70]

Your scenario with Mr/Mrs unvaccinated is relying on lot of things out of their control.

What if the game is a sell out and their quiet seat at the end of the stand suddenly isn't so? What if they need to go to the toilet and their is a queue? What if there is an emergency and they have to evacuate the stadium quickly?

In terms of transmission, what if they go to ER on a Saturday, pick up covid then and then attend the next game on a Wednesday?

I think you are missing my main point. An unvaccinated person can be less of a risk than a vaccinated person. Yes there will be extreme examples of an evacuation, once in my 40 years I can remember, but going to the toilet is fairly in your gift, maybe not if you are double vaxxed and spent all morning in the pub with a big group of mates. You can't go to ER very often if you can't judge when there will be space in the far sides of the wing stands. Pretty much every league game barring Hearts.

My point is of course without taking average behaviour into account you can't simply say vaccinated people have x percent of passing it on and unvaccinated people have a multiple of that. That only applies if they have it and have a similar amount and strain and even then where they sit etc would make a big difference.

It may be the case if those groups behave on average the same but I suspect there may be significant differences particularly in the older age groups. If my kids and their mates are anything to go by it is age not vaccination status that is the big issue here and I would wager 100 under 25s who were all double vaxxed my be more of a danger than 100 unvaccinated 60 year olds. Yes, the youngsters may reduce the chances of passing it on(The Jury is still out on that in terms of Delta) but probably significantly more likely to have the virus in the first place.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes if you’re in the minority of the scared who are double jabbed and still worry they will get Covid then stay home. Not everyone who is double jabbed, difference mate.

Any update on the advice?

Why should the majority, who are vaccinated, have to give way to the minority who refuse to be vaccinated? I'm still waiting. 🙄

I noticed that you stopped posting about 10 past 4, did your mammy call you down for your tea? Or was it Bath time?

[EI255]

Can you imagine requiring a 'passport' for Ipox????????


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[Stairway 2 7]

Can you imagine requiring a 'passport' for Ipox????????


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The higher the poverty and the lower the education is weighted to you not getting vaccinated unfortunately, so I can see Ibrox being empty next month

[The Spaceman]

It’s not a big deal really - you’re not forced to have the vaccine just as you’re not forced to have holidays, go to the football, go to gigs etc. If you chose not to have the vaccine, you also chose not to do those things. Good luck living in your lounge 😂

[cabbageandribs1875]

mon the vaccinated

[Bristolhibby]

There is no argument against it. It happens.

It’s just multiple times less likely to happen and multiple times less likely to lead to hospitalisation and multiple times less likely to lead to death.

The fact that this keeps getting trotted out by the folk who are so against speaks absolute volumes.

Heard an analogy today.

Being unvaccinated is being like being some kindling wood.

Being vaccinated is like being some damp moss ridden bog log.

Both are wood and will eventually burn and catch fire.

The kindling will catch quickly and burn more fiercely.

The wet log will take days to catch if at all.

J

[EI255]

Let us fly high, above the union sky, with our green covid passports and a pie.... To hell with the maroon n blue Union

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[EI255]

Let us fly high, above the union sky, with our green covid passports and a pie.... To hell with the maroon n blue Union

Sent from my LG-H870 using TapatalkI'll get ma coat!

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[superfurryhibby]

It’s not a big deal really - you’re not forced to have the vaccine just as you’re not forced to have holidays, go to the football, go to gigs etc. If you chose not to have the vaccine, you also chose not to do those things. Good luck living in your lounge 😂

Loving the stupidity and smugness. You’re wrong on all counts, but don’t let that stop you creaming yourself, lol

[Glory Lurker]

Jag up, or shut up.

[Stairway 2 7]

Jag up, or shut up.

If you don't get the vaccine, you'll only see hibs on sportscene

[Rumble de Thump]

Loving the stupidity and smugness. You’re wrong on all counts, but don’t let that stop you creaming yourself, lol


Who's forcing you to do these things?

[jakedance]

Are the unvaccinated generally doom and groomers or happy clappers? This could be a helpful purge.

[hibbyfraelibby]

Are the unvaccinated generally doom and groomers or happy clappers? This could be a helpful purge.

Groomers? Defo Groomers.
😉

[jgl07]

I notice that you chose not to reply to my next post, so to help you out....

For some unknown reason you seem to be advocating unvaccinated should be allowed into football grounds. Please explain your reasoning behind this?
Well I don’t think it is a good idea to exclude all the Under-18s as well as half of the 18-25 age group. They are not excluded from Pubs and Restaurants. Most who have more than two brain cells to rub together know that the risk of infection out of doors is extremely low, certainly a lot lower than indoor in a pub.People are travelling in confined railway carriages and buses without any restriction. Schools are fully opened up and so will Universities.

Has any evidence been produced to indicate an upward spiral of infections after football stadia were reopened?

Targeting football matches is and old at ploy by out-of-touch Governments from Thatcher in the 1980s. This is just a way for Governments to be seen to be ‘doing something’.

[Peevemor]

Targeting football matches is and old at ploy by out-of-touch Governments from Thatcher in the 1980s. This is just a way for Governments to be seen to be ‘doing something’.

This sort of talk strikes me as paranoia.

Gatherings from dozens to thousands are effected, not just football.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well I don’t think it is a good idea to exclude all the Under-18s as well as half of the 18-25 age group. They are not excluded from Pubs and Restaurants. Most who have more than two brain cells to rub together know that the risk of infection out of doors is extremely low, certainly a lot lower than indoor in a pub.People are travelling in confined railway carriages and buses without any restriction. Schools are fully opened up and so will Universities.

Has any evidence been produced to indicate an upward spiral of infections after football stadia were reopened?

Targeting football matches is and old at ploy by out-of-touch Governments from Thatcher in the 1980s. This is just a way for Governments to be seen to be ‘doing something’.

Only the under 16s can't get the vaccine, for now. 🙄

[Aim Here]

Well I don’t think it is a good idea to exclude all the Under-18s as well as half of the 18-25 age group.

The guidelines state clearly: "Children and adults that are ineligible for vaccination will be exempt [from needing a vaccine passport to go to large events]". They're not being excluded, only folks who voluntarily refuse to vaxx up.

I suspect it's not wise for adults who are medically unable to get the vaccine to show up to a large event, but they are allowed to, regardless.

[SChibs]

Mate, covid kills people, everyone should be frightened of catching it.

That's not a way to live life. If everyone was scared of viruses that could kill you then we'd all sit in our houses all day everyday. Flu kills people, chest infections leading to pneumonia kill people. I drive everyday but I don't get scared i'll die in a car crash

[wookie70]

That's not a way to live life. If everyone was scared of viruses that could kill you then we'd all sit in our houses all day everyday. Flu kills people, chest infections leading to pneumonia kill people. I drive everyday but I don't get scared I'll die in a car crash

Totally agree. One of the deadliest things about this virus is how easy it is to govern when the population is scared. Take away your freedom, not an issue, billions of pounds chucked away on PPE - who cares, billions given to MPs mates in contracts for goods they have never had any experience in and tens of billions on a track and trace system that doesn't work. Crack on, well done PM for mounting one of the worst defences against Covid anyone could imagine despite starting from one of the most advantageous position.

The governments have used fear for years and refined it more and more. They create a constant and every changing bogey man. Afghanistan front page news for weeks while a few British people try and escape a mess of our making. Taliban left to rule with billions of pounds worth of hardware nothing to be heard in the media and the Tories will be looking for the next Bogeyman. Keep immigrants and Covid going though.

I'm not suggesting Covid isn't deadly but some of the measures taken have failed to make any sense whatsoever and the public don't seem to care and are bizarrely quite happy with a truly appalling response to the virus.

I listened to the Scottish Labour Leader today on the Radio, Sarwar spoke well and will vote against the passports being implemented. His main reason was it simply didn't make much sense and trying to co-erse people to get jabbed may actually fuel anti vax thinking. He was also strong with the message it is way down the list of measures with making track and trace work far higher up. His view was that the Sg were doing it to appear in control. I couldn't agree more but I also think there is a civil liberty and equality angle too.

[Rumble de Thump]

That's not a way to live life. If everyone was scared of viruses that could kill you then we'd all sit in our houses all day everyday. Flu kills people, chest infections leading to pneumonia kill people. I drive everyday but I don't get scared i'll die in a car crash

There are a vast number of measures in place in order to limit your chances of being in a car crash, because nobody is really keen on the idea of dying in a car crash.

[CentreLine]

That's not a way to live life. If everyone was scared of viruses that could kill you then we'd all sit in our houses all day everyday. Flu kills people, chest infections leading to pneumonia kill people. I drive everyday but I don't get scared i'll die in a car crash

Can’t resist dropping back in to this thread to answer this comment.
The difference between endemic viruses such as flu and measles, very dangerous though they are, and a pandemic, such as the current COVID-19, pandemic is a perceived threat to the entire human race. Worst case scenario is pandemic it’s capable of being an extinction event.

Easy to be flippant but maybe engaging a little thought first would be worthwhile

[SChibs]

Can’t resist dropping back in to this thread to answer this comment.
The difference between endemic viruses such as flu and measles, very dangerous though they are, and a pandemic, such as the current COVID-19, pandemic is a perceived threat to the entire human race. Worst case scenario is pandemic it’s capable of being an extinction event.

Easy to be flippant but maybe engaging a little thought first would be worthwhile

Covid 19 is not going to wipe out the entire human race. That's a bit of an exaggeration and it's comments like that which cause undue distress. The virus is dangerous for older people and people with health conditions. Only 5% of covid deaths have been people with no commodities.

As viruses mutate they tend to kill less people but become more infectious so over time the virus is going to kill less people naturally.

[CentreLine]

Covid 19 is not going to wipe out the entire human race. That's a bit of an exaggeration and it's comments like that which cause undue distress. The virus is dangerous for older people and people with health conditions. Only 5% of covid deaths have been people with no commodities.

As viruses mutate they tend to kill less people but become more infectious so over time the virus is going to kill less people naturally.

This is why I left this thread earlier, it’s going round in circle and people choose not to read what you have actually said. Nowhere did I say COVID was going to wipe out the human race. Read what I have written instead of coming away with a daft agenda comment. You need to get your head round the difference between pandemic and endemic

[Stairway 2 7]

Yep thread is tired due to anti vax lockdown trumpets.

On the day that it's announced that the death toll is 15 million lives. Even with strict worldwide lockdowns and vaccines. Thankfully the vast majority respected how brutal the virus is, by respecting lockdowns and getting vaccinated.

91% of adults got vaccinated but the minority 9% seem to make the most bleating. This thread or twitter makes no difference anyway. Fact is if you want to sing sunshine on leith after humping hearts at new years get vaccinated, if no enjoy the hoos

[CentreLine]

Yep thread is tired due to anti vax lockdown trumpets.

On the day that it's announced that the death toll is 15 million lives. Even with strict worldwide lockdowns and vaccines. Thankfully the vast majority respected how brutal the virus is, by respecting lockdowns and getting vaccinated.

91% of adults got vaccinated but the minority 9% seem to make the most bleating. This thread or twitter makes no difference anyway. Fact is if you want to sing sunshine on leith after humping hearts at new years get vaccinated, if no enjoy the hoos


I know it’s easy to pick the huge figures involved up inaccurately but I’m seeing a massive over 4.5m dead. Would not be surprised if the actual figure is nearer your number but as far as I can see the 4.5 million is the declared figures. Having said that, I don’t think the gravity of deaths has registered with some people. For that matter, I suspect a small but noisy number of contributors to this thread unintentionally follow the Malthusian theory. You know the one the Whig government believed in and justified the lack of compassion or assistance for the victims of potato famine in Scotland’s and Ireland.

Time I butted out from this thread once more

[Peevemor]

I know it’s easy to pick the huge figures involved up inaccurately but I’m seeing a massive over 4.5m dead. Would not be surprised if the actual figure is nearer your number but as far as I can see the 4.5 million is the declared figures. Having said that, I don’t think the gravity of deaths has registered with some people. For that matter, I suspect a small but noisy number of contributors to this thread unintentionally follow the Malthusian theory. You know the one the Whig government believed in and justified the lack of compassion or assistance for the victims of potato famine in Scotland’s and Ireland.

Time I butted out from this thread once morehttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/true-global-covid-death-toll-15million-pandemic-3v95lxj8q

"The official global death toll from Covid-19 has passed 4.5 million but the true figure may be more than three times higher, at 15 million lives lost.

The huge disparity between recorded deaths and the real scale of the pandemic is partly caused by undercounting by some of the most populous countries and regions, including China, India and Russia, as well as much of Latin America and Africa, researchers said."

[CentreLine]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/true-global-covid-death-toll-15million-pandemic-3v95lxj8q

"The official global death toll from Covid-19 has passed 4.5 million but the true figure may be more than three times higher, at 15 million lives lost.

The huge disparity between recorded deaths and the real scale of the pandemic is partly caused by undercounting by some of the most populous countries and regions, including China, India and Russia, as well as much of Latin America and Africa, researchers said."

👍🏻 And every single death an individual human being. But we have people arguing semantics

[CMurdoch]

Seems to me that some folk on here have spent a ridiculous amount of time working out reasons why they or others shouldn't get the vaccine rather than just getting it done for the common good after they have made a reasonable amount of research about the risks and benefits.
Do they do the same in every aspect of their lives? Do they ever get anything done?

It's ironic that they want to watch Hibs play. Substitute them into the body of say Kyle Magennis for Sunday. How would they play?
5th minute, Kyle gets the ball in midfield. What does he do? Kevin Nisbet and Martin Boyle are making good runs but Kyle is worried they might mess it up and lose the ball. Maybe he should pass it back to Hanlon but the fans won't be happy with that. He stands there thinking whilst all around are begging for him to pass. The Hearts player eventually takes the ball from the still thinking Kyle and scores.

The rest of us in the Kyle scenario check out the options at the given time and make the best decision for our team, releasing the ball to Boyle who runs clear and chips the keeper but the ball goes narrowly by the post. Great effort and the team are up for it.

Stop dithering and pontificating, get the vaccine and join the rest of us at Easter Road.

[007]

Seems to me that some folk on here have spent a ridiculous amount of time working out reasons why they or others shouldn't get the vaccine rather than just getting it done for the common good after they have made a reasonable amount of research about the risks and benefits.
Do they do the same in every aspect of their lives? Do they ever get anything done?

It's ironic that they want to watch Hibs play. Substitute them into the body of say Kyle Magennis for Sunday. How would they play?
5th minute, Kyle gets the ball in midfield. What does he do? Kevin Nisbet and Martin Boyle are making good runs but Kyle is worried they might mess it up and lose the ball. Maybe he should pass it back to Hanlon but the fans won't be happy with that. He stands there thinking whilst all around are begging for him to pass. The Hearts player eventually takes the ball from the still thinking Kyle and scores.

The rest of us in the Kyle scenario check out the options at the given time and make the best decision for our team, releasing the ball to Boyle who runs clear and chips the keeper but the ball goes narrowly by the post. Great effort and the team are up for it.

Stop dithering and pontificating, get the vaccine and join the rest of us at Easter Road.

Fake vaccine passport cards are being sold in the US for $200 when you can very easily get vaccinated for free.

[Peevemor]

Fake vaccine passport cards are being sold in the US for $200 when you can get very easily get vaccinated for free.

They were (are?) going for hundreds of euros in France. It's not just about avoiding the vaccine - people who hadn't started the process were going to have to wait about 3 months given the time required to organise their 2 jags & then wait a further 2 weeks before the passport becomes valid. Folk who could afford it didn't want to wait.

[Skol]

Apart from the very small number of people with legitimate health reasons, there is no reason why we should not all have had the vaccine by now. If you have chosen not to have the vaccine and find restrictions apply, then that is part of your choice on not being vaccinated.

This is going to be difficult to implement and will be open to abuse which is a pain and could be avoided if people just got themselves vaccinated.

[CMurdoch]

Fake vaccine passport cards are being sold in the US for $200 when you can get very easily get vaccinated for free.

Insane in the membrane.
Voting in Trump and the conduct of many of their citizens during the pandemic has seen me view that country in a whole different light.
Almost third world like.

[Stonewall]

Totally agree. One of the deadliest things about this virus is how easy it is to govern when the population is scared. Take away your freedom, not an issue, billions of pounds chucked away on PPE - who cares, billions given to MPs mates in contracts for goods they have never had any experience in and tens of billions on a track and trace system that doesn't work. Crack on, well done PM for mounting one of the worst defences against Covid anyone could imagine despite starting from one of the most advantageous position.

The governments have used fear for years and refined it more and more. They create a constant and every changing bogey man. Afghanistan front page news for weeks while a few British people try and escape a mess of our making. Taliban left to rule with billions of pounds worth of hardware nothing to be heard in the media and the Tories will be looking for the next Bogeyman. Keep immigrants and Covid going though.

I'm not suggesting Covid isn't deadly but some of the measures taken have failed to make any sense whatsoever and the public don't seem to care and are bizarrely quite happy with a truly appalling response to the virus.

I listened to the Scottish Labour Leader today on the Radio, Sarwar spoke well and will vote against the passports being implemented. His main reason was it simply didn't make much sense and trying to co-erse people to get jabbed may actually fuel anti vax thinking. He was also strong with the message it is way down the list of measures with making track and trace work far higher up. His view was that the Sg were doing it to appear in control. I couldn't agree more but I also think there is a civil liberty and equality angle too.

Re Civil liberties: I would agree you have the right to not get vaccinated but I don’t think you have the right to put other people at greater risk by your actions.

[Skol]

Totally agree. One of the deadliest things about this virus is how easy it is to govern when the population is scared. Take away your freedom, not an issue, billions of pounds chucked away on PPE - who cares, billions given to MPs mates in contracts for goods they have never had any experience in and tens of billions on a track and trace system that doesn't work. Crack on, well done PM for mounting one of the worst defences against Covid anyone could imagine despite starting from one of the most advantageous position.

The governments have used fear for years and refined it more and more. They create a constant and every changing bogey man. Afghanistan front page news for weeks while a few British people try and escape a mess of our making. Taliban left to rule with billions of pounds worth of hardware nothing to be heard in the media and the Tories will be looking for the next Bogeyman. Keep immigrants and Covid going though.

I'm not suggesting Covid isn't deadly but some of the measures taken have failed to make any sense whatsoever and the public don't seem to care and are bizarrely quite happy with a truly appalling response to the virus.

I listened to the Scottish Labour Leader today on the Radio, Sarwar spoke well and will vote against the passports being implemented. His main reason was it simply didn't make much sense and trying to co-erse people to get jabbed may actually fuel anti vax thinking. He was also strong with the message it is way down the list of measures with making track and trace work far higher up. His view was that the Sg were doing it to appear in control. I couldn't agree more but I also think there is a civil liberty and equality angle too.

I am no fan of either the UK or the Scottish Governments. It is inarguable that both have handled the pandemic poorly. I do though have an element of sympathy for anyone who is in charge of our response as this is a brand new, ever changing situation where it almost doesnt matter what you do, it will not be perfect.

I think both governments want us to get back to normal or as close as we can as soon as we can, while also ensuring we protect the NHS. With that in mind then people should be doing what they can when asked to do so, otherwise they risk just delaying matters further.

[Ronniekirk]

Apart from the very small number of people with legitimate health reasons, there is no reason why we should not all have had the vaccine by now. If you have chosen not to have the vaccine and find restrictions apply, then that is part of your choice on not being vaccinated.

This is going to be difficult to implement and will be open to abuse which is a pain and could be avoided if people just got themselves vaccinated.

They could easily have made it Mandatory with exemptions for those with clear medical grounds for not getting it
They didn’t so they shouldn’t be surprised when some people for whatever reason decide to not get vaccinated
They went on record a while back saying they were amazed at the level of take up or words to that effect so they clearly didn’t think they would reach the level s they have
Loads of people I know that have had the vaccine are not keen for younger children to be vaccinated
This is going to run and run and people will find a way to a false vaccine passport s
Nicola went on the record stating she wouldn’t introduce vaccine passports yet here we are





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[007]

They could easily have made it Mandatory with exemptions for those with clear medical grounds for not getting it
They didn’t so they shouldn’t be surprised when some people for whatever reason decide to not get vaccinated
They went on record a while back saying they were amazed at the level of take up or words to that effect so they clearly didn’t think they would reach the level s they have
Loads of people I know that have had the vaccine are not keen for younger children to be vaccinated
This is going to run and run and people will find a way to a false vaccine passport s
Nicola went on the record stating she wouldn’t introduce vaccine passports yet here we are

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Imagine the hoo ha if they had made the vaccine mandatory. They haven't, they are introducing measures where it is required in higher risk situations that is all and yet still some are causing a fuss.

Loads of people I know want to have the option to get their children vaccinated, as per all the other vaccinations given throughout childhood.

[Ronniekirk]

Imagine the hoo ha if they had made the vaccine mandatory. They haven't, they are introducing measures where it is required in higher risk situations that is all and yet still some are causing a fuss.

Loads of people I know want to have the option to get their children vaccinated, as per all the other vaccinations given throughout childhood.

And they can get them vaccinated but others don’t want to and they don’t need to as it’s not Mandatory






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[007]

And they can get them vaccinated but others don’t want to and they don’t need to as it’s not Mandatory

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No they can't. Under 16s cannot get a Covid vaccination.

[Ronniekirk]

No they can't. Under 16s cannot get a Covid vaccination.

I was meaning children 12 plus All the signs are governments will move to this soon seemed to be what was being reported over the weekend


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[CropleyWasGod]

They could easily have made it Mandatory with exemptions for those with clear medical grounds for not getting it



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The gaols aren't big enough to take the refuseniks.

[Ronniekirk]

The gaols aren't big enough to take the refuseniks.

For the record I have been double jabbed and get my my Flu Jab mid September
But if it’s not Mandatory those that do t want it don’t need to get it That’s really my only point


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[wookie70]

For the record I have been double jabbed and get my my Flu Jab mid September
But if it’s not Mandatory those that do t want it don’t need to get it That’s really my only point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Listening to LBC and the latest study seems to suggest that someone who has had the Delta variant of covid but is unvaccinated is a safer bet in terms of others and themselves than a double vaxxed person. The study was on Delta and joins others that say similar. Should we now restrict access to ER to those who have had the Delta variant or at the very least make sure they get the first tickets as they are the safest to be there. If those who have had Delta are excluded then Science appears to have little to do with the decision to make passports mandatory for 10k plus events.

I never caught the name of the study but think it is the one referred to here. (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/delta-variant-what-kind-of-immunity-offers-the-highest-protection#Natural-immunity-and-one-vaccination-may-offer-best-protection)

Top findings were

The analysis indicated that people who had never had the infection and received a vaccine in January or February of 2021 were up to 13 times more likely to contract the virus than people who had already had the infection.
The findings appear to indicate increased protection from natural immunity over vaccine-conferred immunity.

The finding of course do not mean you shouldn't get vaccinated or that it isn't beneficial. They do however cast doubt on excluding unvaccinated people from events, particularly those that have had Delta Covid. The study also never took into account masks and social distancing etc but neither have other quoted here and I think all this demonstrates is the science, particularly on the Delta Variant, is not fixed and withdrawing choice from citizens is a big step to take considering the changing science especially for those that have went down the route of trusting their own immunity and their health. According to this study they were right to do so and yet some have been incredibly harsh on that group in these pages calling them stupid and selfish etc. I'm not in that group but I respect their point of view and they are not only entitled to hold it but have been proven correct in many ways.

[calumhibee1]

Listening to LBC and the latest study seems to suggest that someone who has had the Delta variant of covid but is unvaccinated is a safer bet in terms of others and themselves than a double vaxxed person. The study was on Delta and joins others that say similar. Should we now restrict access to ER to those who have had the Delta variant or at the very least make sure they get the first tickets as they are the safest to be there. If those who have had Delta are excluded then Science appears to have little to do with the decision to make passports mandatory for 10k plus events.

I never caught the name of the study but think it is the one referred to here. (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/delta-variant-what-kind-of-immunity-offers-the-highest-protection#Natural-immunity-and-one-vaccination-may-offer-best-protection)

Top findings were

The analysis indicated that people who had never had the infection and received a vaccine in January or February of 2021 were up to 13 times more likely to contract the virus than people who had already had the infection.
The findings appear to indicate increased protection from natural immunity over vaccine-conferred immunity.

The finding of course do not mean you shouldn't get vaccinated or that it isn't beneficial. They do however cast doubt on excluding unvaccinated people from events, particularly those that have had Delta Covid. The study also never took into account masks and social distancing etc but neither have other quoted here and I think all this demonstrates is the science, particularly on the Delta Variant, is not fixed and withdrawing choice from citizens is a big step to take considering the changing science especially for those that have went down the route of trusting their own immunity and their health. According to this study they were right to do so and yet some have been incredibly harsh on that group in these pages calling them stupid and selfish etc. I'm not in that group but I respect their point of view and they are not only entitled to hold it but have been proven correct in many ways.





Do they have data as to who tested positive for what variant for all the positive tests?

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JiminyC24/status/1434801514711769089

Coronavirus infections three times lower in double vaccinated people - REACT.

If every adult in the UK was vaccinated the r would plummet and this mess would be over. Vaccines stop almost 70% of infection is vaccinated and those infection are infectious for a shorter time and with lower viral load.

People not getting vaccinated have held us all back and also caused the NHS so much trouble. Not only because of them having to be treated but also other operations and tests being able to be done.

Regardless of the chat on this thread passports are coming, so get vaccinated or get a pass for the pictures

[wookie70]

Do they have data as to who tested positive for what variant for all the positive tests?
No idea I am looking at the findings but it is a study from Israel according to the article so that is a pretty good comparator to the UK in terms of vaccinations and what variant. It come with caveats just like every study pointing the other way.

[wookie70]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JiminyC24/status/1434801514711769089

Coronavirus infections three times lower in double vaccinated people - REACT.

If every adult in the UK was vaccinated the r would plummet and this mess would be over. Vaccines stop almost 70% of infection is vaccinated and those infection are infectious for a shorter time and with lower viral load.

People not getting vaccinated have held us all back and also caused the NHS so much trouble. Not only because of them having to be treated but also other operations and tests being able to be done.

Regardless of the chat on this thread passports are coming, so get vaccinated or get a pass for the pictures

Funny despite the headline what I read from that is that loads more people are getting infected despite the sharp rise in those who have been vaccinated. That says to me that behaviour and lockdown rules are a much better way to combat the spread but then every scientist would agree on that.

Key paras from my point of view and my emphasis - The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others.

Also the highest infection rates were in those from 13-24 year olds and all those from 13-18 would be allowed into ER regardless of Vaccine Status.

[JeMeSouviens]

Listening to LBC and the latest study seems to suggest that someone who has had the Delta variant of covid but is unvaccinated is a safer bet in terms of others and themselves than a double vaxxed person. The study was on Delta and joins others that say similar. Should we now restrict access to ER to those who have had the Delta variant or at the very least make sure they get the first tickets as they are the safest to be there. If those who have had Delta are excluded then Science appears to have little to do with the decision to make passports mandatory for 10k plus events.

I never caught the name of the study but think it is the one referred to here. (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/delta-variant-what-kind-of-immunity-offers-the-highest-protection#Natural-immunity-and-one-vaccination-may-offer-best-protection)

Top findings were

The analysis indicated that people who had never had the infection and received a vaccine in January or February of 2021 were up to 13 times more likely to contract the virus than people who had already had the infection.
The findings appear to indicate increased protection from natural immunity over vaccine-conferred immunity.

The finding of course do not mean you shouldn't get vaccinated or that it isn't beneficial. They do however cast doubt on excluding unvaccinated people from events, particularly those that have had Delta Covid. The study also never took into account masks and social distancing etc but neither have other quoted here and I think all this demonstrates is the science, particularly on the Delta Variant, is not fixed and withdrawing choice from citizens is a big step to take considering the changing science especially for those that have went down the route of trusting their own immunity and their health. According to this study they were right to do so and yet some have been incredibly harsh on that group in these pages calling them stupid and selfish etc. I'm not in that group but I respect their point of view and they are not only entitled to hold it but have been proven correct in many ways.






Sorry, but this is rubbish. You're mixing different things.

The vaccines induce the body to make the spike protein of the original SARS-Cov-2 and thus generate an immune response to that. If the vaccines induced production of the spike protein of the delta variant then they would be just as effective as they were in initial trials and just as good as being naturally infected ... and a whole giant **** of a lot safer.

As it is, they're still very effective against delta and still a whole giant **** of a lot safer than exposure to the virus.

"Trusting their own immunity and their health" means rolling the dice that you're not the one that gets seriously ill with long term complications or dies. It also means a much greater risk of potentially passing on the virus to others.

In short, it's both stupid and selfish.

[Moulin Yarns]

No covid vaccine passport to get into trnsmt, LFT is a must.

[CropleyWasGod]

No covid vaccine passport to get into trnsmt, LFT is a must.

Will that change if the vote is in favour of passports tomorrow?

[CapitalGreen]

Listening to LBC and the latest study seems to suggest that someone who has had the Delta variant of covid but is unvaccinated is a safer bet in terms of others and themselves than a double vaxxed person. The study was on Delta and joins others that say similar. Should we now restrict access to ER to those who have had the Delta variant or at the very least make sure they get the first tickets as they are the safest to be there. If those who have had Delta are excluded then Science appears to have little to do with the decision to make passports mandatory for 10k plus events.

I never caught the name of the study but think it is the one referred to here. (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/delta-variant-what-kind-of-immunity-offers-the-highest-protection#Natural-immunity-and-one-vaccination-may-offer-best-protection)

Top findings were

The analysis indicated that people who had never had the infection and received a vaccine in January or February of 2021 were up to 13 times more likely to contract the virus than people who had already had the infection.
The findings appear to indicate increased protection from natural immunity over vaccine-conferred immunity.

The finding of course do not mean you shouldn't get vaccinated or that it isn't beneficial. They do however cast doubt on excluding unvaccinated people from events, particularly those that have had Delta Covid. The study also never took into account masks and social distancing etc but neither have other quoted here and I think all this demonstrates is the science, particularly on the Delta Variant, is not fixed and withdrawing choice from citizens is a big step to take considering the changing science especially for those that have went down the route of trusting their own immunity and their health. According to this study they were right to do so and yet some have been incredibly harsh on that group in these pages calling them stupid and selfish etc. I'm not in that group but I respect their point of view and they are not only entitled to hold it but have been proven correct in many ways.





How do you know which variant you have if you test positive?

Does a post-Delta positive person lose the suggested extra immunity if they subsequently get vaccinated?

[Stairway 2 7]

Will that change if the vote is in favour of passports tomorrow?

Would be too soon you would presume, I think they said the end of the month

[calumhibee1]

How do you know which variant you have if you test positive?

Does a post-Delta positive person lose the suggested extra immunity if they subsequently get vaccinated?

As far as I’m aware you don’t know which makes the idea a non starter.

[CropleyWasGod]

Would be too soon you would presume, I think they said the end of the month

Makes sense.

[Moulin Yarns]

Will that change if the vote is in favour of passports tomorrow?

You will not get in to cinch presents TRNSMT if you do not complete and upload a Lateral Flow Test BEFORE you arrive. More Info – https://t.co/81T2wnZnrG https://t.co/EtTwR18Dwo



Don't think so.

[wookie70]

Sorry, but this is rubbish. You're mixing different things.

The vaccines induce the body to make the spike protein of the original SARS-Cov-2 and thus generate an immune response to that. If the vaccines induced production of the spike protein of the delta variant then they would be just as effective as they were in initial trials and just as good as being naturally infected ... and a whole giant **** of a lot safer.

As it is, they're still very effective against delta and still a whole giant **** of a lot safer than exposure to the virus.

"Trusting their own immunity and their health" means rolling the dice that you're not the one that gets seriously ill with long term complications or dies. It also means a much greater risk of potentially passing on the virus to others.

In short, it's both stupid and selfish.

But those that rolled the dice as you say were aware of the chances or catching Covid and the likelihood of it killing them or harming them. The ones I know were in great health, eat very well usually a vegan diet and were not in the oldest groups. They looked at the chances of them being badly effected(very slim) and weighed that against the chances of side effects from vaccines(very slim). They also started taking more natural defences such as vitamin D and magnesium etc to provide them with a better response when/if they caught it. Remember this was months ago when perhaps the vaccine was even less understood than it is now against Delta. They decided that the odds, for them, meant they wouldn't take the vaccine and now have better immunity than the vaccine would have given them, assuming they caught Delta and most had no more than a slight headache that they would have attributed to flu/cold in any other year.

How long did they have a greater chance of passing it on and how long will they have a lesser chance of passing it on. I'm sure you are right that before antibodies were built up they would have more a chance to pass it on but they would self isolate if they were aware so that lessens that and is that not the case for those that have had the vaccine too, there is a period of time where it builds to full effect. If the study is true they are less likely now of passing it on and that may be for a long time, who knows.

I'm not in that group but it is very difficult to argue against them especially given some of the results from studies. They will never get the vaccine so despite being less of a risk to their fellow fan are being excluded from Easter Road. That is a stupid and selfish reaction from a government trying to look in control. I am in favour of the vaccine and would advocate that people take it. I wouldn't stop those that don't take it from being part of society and label them stupid or worse for doing so though and that is what this is about. I am absolutely not talking about the Bill Gates puts chips in the vaccine, call them stupid all you want. I am talking about adults who researched scientific papers, looked at their health, which is best known to them, and decided on a course of action for them. They are now less likely to be a danger to others but will be excluded from parts of society(according to a study in a country with similar Covid and vaccine status to the UK). That is stupid if you ask me and given my view is that the Government are doing this for control rather than Public Health it is selfish too

[wookie70]

You will not get in to cinch presents TRNSMT if you do not complete and upload a Lateral Flow Test BEFORE you arrive. More Info – https://t.co/81T2wnZnrG https://t.co/EtTwR18Dwo



Don't think so.

That makes far more sense than vaccine passports ever will and I have no issue with that.

[wookie70]

Reading more about the Israel studies and it seems they were mostly about the Pfizer vaccine. That is of course one of the UK used ones. This suggests (https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta) that it works very well but the protection starts to fade needing boosters. I thought it was going to be impossible to administer a passport scheme at football grounds but this would suggest that some level of sell by date might be needed on vaccine passports. Israel is one of the most vaccinated and most heavily infected countries in the world. We will be too in fairly short order as we are doing very little to stop the spread and put all our eggs in the vaccine basket.

There is going to be a surge and another peak of Delta regardless of who is vaccinated unless boosters are done very regularly from reading that. By the time that has been organised the next more deadly strain will be well on the way and we will need another passport and vaccines no doubt. The SG have stopped lockdowns and that is by far the biggest reason that there is a surge not the small percentage not taking a vaccine.

[calumhibee1]

Reading more about the Israel studies and it seems they were mostly about the Pfizer vaccine. That is of course one of the UK used ones. This suggests (https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta) that it works very well but the protection starts to fade needing boosters. I thought it was going to be impossible to administer a passport scheme at football grounds but this would suggest that some level of sell by date might be needed on vaccine passports. Israel is one of the most vaccinated and most heavily infected countries in the world. We will be too in fairly short order as we are doing very little to stop the spread and put all our eggs in the vaccine basket.

There is going to be a surge and another peak of Delta regardless of who is vaccinated unless boosters are done very regularly from reading that. By the time that has been organised the next more deadly strain will be well on the way and we will need another passport and vaccines no doubt. The SG have stopped lockdowns and that is by far the biggest reason that there is a surge not the small percentage not taking a vaccine.

The vaccine passports do have a ‘sell by’ date on them

[wookie70]

The vaccine passports do have a ‘sell by’ date on them So they do but it doesn't look like it has anything to do with the date of Vaccine so means the square route of very little. I am basing that on having a look at my own for the first time and the date being a calendar year from today. Perhaps that is a co-incidence but I doubt it.

[Santa Cruz]

Reading more about the Israel studies and it seems they were mostly about the Pfizer vaccine. That is of course one of the UK used ones. This suggests (https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta) that it works very well but the protection starts to fade needing boosters. I thought it was going to be impossible to administer a passport scheme at football grounds but this would suggest that some level of sell by date might be needed on vaccine passports. Israel is one of the most vaccinated and most heavily infected countries in the world. We will be too in fairly short order as we are doing very little to stop the spread and put all our eggs in the vaccine basket.

There is going to be a surge and another peak of Delta regardless of who is vaccinated unless boosters are done very regularly from reading that. By the time that has been organised the next more deadly strain will be well on the way and we will need another passport and vaccines no doubt. The SG have stopped lockdowns and that is by far the biggest reason that there is a surge not the small percentage not taking a vaccine.

Can we make a comparison with Israel? Their dosage schedule was 3 weeks between vaccines and studies show the longer delay in doses provides longer lasting immunity from serious illness. As you say they used Pfizer, where we used AZ in a high percentage of the population. The AZ manufacturer's aren't convinced a third dose will be required yet.

The surge may have started before schools opened, but it is now mainly being driven by schools, the case numbers show this. Nearly half of today's cases were in the under 19's and that is a large percentage of unvaccinated in the population.

[wookie70]

Can we make a comparison with Israel? Their dosage schedule was 3 weeks between vaccines and studies show the longer delay in doses provides longer lasting immunity from serious illness. As you say they used Pfizer, where we used AZ in a high percentage of the population. The AZ manufacturer's aren't convinced a third dose will be required yet.

The surge may have started before schools opened, but it is now mainly being driven by schools, the case numbers show this. Nearly half of today's cases were in the under 19's and that is a large percentage of unvaccinated in the population.

I absolutely agree with your last point yet those of school age can go to ER regardless of vaccination status. How does that make sense.

Most of the reading I have done today is on Pfizer so you are right but we do have a chunk of the population that have used that vaccine. Do we need different vaccine passports potentially with sell by dates to attend an event that is highly unlikely to be a spreader event if fans stayed out of the pub and where we are most likely to be infected by someone under the age of requiring a passport or by someone who doesn't need to carry one because they are exempt.

I have lots of concerns about vaccine passports, very few about vaccines. One of my main ones being for ER is the admin, it will be impossible, and that is with a simple yes no passport with age and other exemptions. I also worry that fans are more likely to attend when carrying as they have the vaccine and feel like superman fuelled by all the talk of less likely to pass it on etc, while those who haven't taken the Jag may be more likely to stay home.

[hibbysam]

Would be too soon you would presume, I think they said the end of the month

If this is going to be the saviour and stop the spread then why would they delay it c.3 weeks before implementation? How many huge events will take place in that time?

[JeMeSouviens]

But those that rolled the dice as you say were aware of the chances or catching Covid and the likelihood of it killing them or harming them. The ones I know were in great health, eat very well usually a vegan diet and were not in the oldest groups. They looked at the chances of them being badly effected(very slim) and weighed that against the chances of side effects from vaccines(very slim). They also started taking more natural defences such as vitamin D and magnesium etc to provide them with a better response when/if they caught it. Remember this was months ago when perhaps the vaccine was even less understood than it is now against Delta. They decided that the odds, for them, meant they wouldn't take the vaccine and now have better immunity than the vaccine would have given them, assuming they caught Delta and most had no more than a slight headache that they would have attributed to flu/cold in any other year.

How long did they have a greater chance of passing it on and how long will they have a lesser chance of passing it on. I'm sure you are right that before antibodies were built up they would have more a chance to pass it on but they would self isolate if they were aware so that lessens that and is that not the case for those that have had the vaccine too, there is a period of time where it builds to full effect. If the study is true they are less likely now of passing it on and that may be for a long time, who knows.

I'm not in that group but it is very difficult to argue against them especially given some of the results from studies. They will never get the vaccine so despite being less of a risk to their fellow fan are being excluded from Easter Road. That is a stupid and selfish reaction from a government trying to look in control. I am in favour of the vaccine and would advocate that people take it. I wouldn't stop those that don't take it from being part of society and label them stupid or worse for doing so though and that is what this is about. I am absolutely not talking about the Bill Gates puts chips in the vaccine, call them stupid all you want. I am talking about adults who researched scientific papers, looked at their health, which is best known to them, and decided on a course of action for them. They are now less likely to be a danger to others but will be excluded from parts of society(according to a study in a country with similar Covid and vaccine status to the UK). That is stupid if you ask me and given my view is that the Government are doing this for control rather than Public Health it is selfish too



It's not "fairly slim" vs "fairly slim", it's "slim" vs "anorexic". And taking Vit D or being a vegan doesn't change that in a meaningful way.

Delta is extremely transmissible (R0 of about 7) and like the other covid variants is passed on before the onset of symptoms. It is therefore impossible to get "natural immunity" without putting others at risk, unless you have zero human contact (in which case, how did you get it?)

Getting "vax immunity" puts nobody at risk.

Bearing these things in mind, it's very easy to argue with them and all the studies back that up. Vax passports are to drive vax uptake.

[LunasBoots]

Will that change if the vote is in favour of passports tomorrow?

Think vaccine passports come into force start of October if the vote passes, it would be a logistical nightmare if it just came into effect suddenly after the vote.

[SChibs]

It's not "fairly slim" vs "fairly slim", it's "slim" vs "anorexic". And taking Vit D or being a vegan doesn't change that in a meaningful way.

Delta is extremely transmissible (R0 of about 7) and like the other covid variants is passed on before the onset of symptoms. It is therefore impossible to get "natural immunity" without putting others at risk, unless you have zero human contact (in which case, how did you get it?)

Getting "vax immunity" puts nobody at risk.

Bearing these things in mind, it's very easy to argue with them and all the studies back that up. Vax passports are to drive vax uptake.

My colleague and I done some research and number crunching and it appeared we had 0.08% chance of dying from the virus of we caught it and 0.0016 chance of dying from the vaccine. Both are miniscule numbers.

We based the chances of death number on the fact only 5% of covid deaths have been people with no underlying health conditions as we do not have any.

The risk vs benefit of the vaccines isn't isn't one size fits all, as you get younger and healthier the difference between the risks and benefits are neglible.

[wookie70]

My colleague and I done some research and number crunching and it appeared we had 0.08% chance of dying from the virus of we caught it and 0.0016 chance of dying from the vaccine. Both are miniscule numbers.

We based the chances of death number on the fact only 5% of covid deaths have been people with no underlying health conditions as we do not have any.

The risk vs benefit of the vaccines isn't isn't one size fits all, as you get younger and healthier the difference between the risks and benefits are neglible. I find those figures hard to believe and surely you would have to see what the vaccine did to young healthy people

[Just Alf]

My colleague and I done some research and number crunching and it appeared we had 0.08% chance of dying from the virus of we caught it and 0.0016 chance of dying from the vaccine. Both are miniscule numbers.

We based the chances of death number on the fact only 5% of covid deaths have been people with no underlying health conditions as we do not have any.

The risk vs benefit of the vaccines isn't isn't one size fits all, as you get younger and healthier the difference between the risks and benefits are neglible.Governments need to also factor in how many people on average you would pass it on to, a number of them might have health problems or have family at home in that position... the whole thing is a numerical nightmare.

[BILLYHIBS]

Breaking:

Vaccine Passports approved by Scottish Government for all major events from 1st October

BBC News

[Antifa Hibs]

Breaking:

Vaccine Passports approved by Scottish Government for all major events from 1st October

BBC News

Shambles.

Is it going to be scanned via phone? Printed on paper? Manually checked? Who's going to pay for the infrastructure - if any? What about the extra stewards needed etc etc?

This ****ng government!

[SteveHFC]

Shambles.

Is it going to be scanned via phone? Printed on paper? Manually checked?

This ****ng government!

App available at the end of month I think.

[LunasBoots]

Shambles.

Is it going to be scanned via phone? Printed on paper? Manually checked? Who's going to pay for the infrastructure - if any? What about the extra stewards needed etc etc?

This ****ng government!

The companies we get stewards at ER with already struggle to scrape together enough stewards, be a logistical nightmare.

[Callum_62]

App available at the end of month I think.

An app?

What about all they folk that use a Nokia 3310?

SHAMBLES.

[Antifa Hibs]

App available at the end of month I think.

What does that mean? Its just going to have to be shown to a steward or door person?

[BILLYHIBS]

This from Sky Sports specific to Scottish Football fans

https://www.skysports.com/share/12403044

[SteveHFC]

An app?

What about all they folk that use a Nokia 3310?

SHAMBLES.

Paper copy I think. :aok:

[Magpie]

I’m intrigued to see how this is going to work with football clubs.

[JohnM1875]

The companies we get stewards at ER with already struggle to scrape together enough stewards, be a logistical nightmare.

If the checks are as thorough as the ones that advised we'd need ID to get into the first few games I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Took my passport to three games and wasn't asked once to show ID.

[SteveHFC]

What does that mean? Its just going to have to be shown to a steward or door person?

Will be interesting to see how they will cope with this.

[hibbybob]

Shambles.

Is it going to be scanned via phone? Printed on paper? Manually checked? Who's going to pay for the infrastructure - if any? What about the extra stewards needed etc etc?

This ****ng government!
How can you call it a “shambles” before you know the answers to the questions you have raised?

[Callum_62]

Paper copy I think. :aok:

Paper copy?

Will no one think of the environment?

Im upgrading this from shambles to disgrace.

In all seriousness I hope this can be incorporated with the scanners we use for tickets now - that would be the far least disruptive method

[Magpie]

I assume all season ticket holders will be required to hand in proof of double vaccination or risk their season ticket cards not being authorised for entry.

I’m sure there are many season ticket holders who haven’t had one dose of the vaccine never mind two, with an eight week gap for both jabs and this legislation coming into play in just over three weeks, it’s going to cause issues.

[CropleyWasGod]

I assume all season ticket holders will be required to hand in proof of double vaccination or risk their season ticket cards not being authorised for entry.

I’m sure there are many season ticket holders who haven’t had one dose of the vaccine never mind two, with an eight week gap for both jabs and this legislation coming into play in just over three weeks, it’s going to cause issues.

ST holders should have to show their certificate at every game, no? Otherwise, there's a risk that they could lend their ST to someone who isn't vaccinated.

[Antifa Hibs]

How can you call it a “shambles” before you know the answers to the questions you have raised?

Because in 3 weeks time certain people won't be able to attend a football match because there is a few extra people at the game. 9999 at the match, jabbed or not it doesn't matter. 10,001 at the game sorry its now very unsafe and everyone needs 2 vax's.

Ridiculous.

[Magpie]

ST holders should have to show their certificate at every game, no? Otherwise, they could lend their ST to someone who isn't vaccinated.

Isn’t lending your ST technically not legal anyway? I don’t think the club will have that in mind when deciding the best form of action to take.

Majority of supporters don’t tend to enter the stadium until 10-15 minutes before kick off. I’m not sure how they are going to have the numbers to individually check thousands of folk’s certificates in that amount of time.

Edit:

3. This season ticket is not transferable. It may only be used by the season ticket mem- ber detailed on the front in connection with the seat noted, subject to paragraph 6. If it is discovered through the verification process at turnstiles that a season ticket has been transferred to another, the Club reserves the right to confiscate the ticket. If, for exam- ple, a child's ticket is used by an adult, the Club reserves the right to cancel the season ticket and no refund shall be given.

[CropleyWasGod]

Isn’t lending your ST technically not legal anyway? I don’t think the club will have that in mind when deciding the best form of action to take.

Majority of supporters don’t tend to enter the stadium until 10-15 minutes before kick off. I’m not sure how they are going to have the numbers to individually check thousands of folk’s certificates in that amount of time.

I think they should. Otherwise, there's a big hole in their processes, and they could be taken to task for it.

Much of what you say is relevant, of course, and the SFA have raised a lot of issues with the SG already.

[LunasBoots]

I assume all season ticket holders will be required to hand in proof of double vaccination or risk their season ticket cards not being authorised for entry.

I’m sure there are many season ticket holders who haven’t had one dose of the vaccine never mind two, with an eight week gap for both jabs and this legislation coming into play in just over three weeks, it’s going to cause issues.

It would have to be checked every game sadly.

[Magpie]

I think they should. Otherwise, there's a big hole in their processes, and they could be taken to task for it.

Much of what you say is relevant, of course, and the SFA have raised a lot of issues with the SG already.

The club have already stated in the terms and conditions that the season ticket is not transferable so they have covered themselves in that aspect.

[jgl07]

There are two likely scenarios that could follow.

The first is that there will be notices up at the stadium but no-one will bother to enforce it.

The second is there will be staff checking everyone coming in and queues will build up and chaos will ensue.

Since the Scottish Government, unlike their counterparts in England, has yet to produce a smartphone app showing vaccination status. All I have is a sheet of paper which could be used by anyone. That is unless we also require photo id to get into a football match.

I smell a total fiasco coming up.

[CropleyWasGod]

The club have already stated in the terms and conditions that the season ticket is not transferable so they have covered themselves in that aspect.

Maybe I'm not explaining masel :greengrin

I'm trying to make the point that a ST holder will have to show their certificate at every game.

[Ronniekirk]

It’s to run till February 2022 according to article I saw Assume it can be dispensed with if not deemed needed
But how can they be so sure it will end then
A difficult winter would scupper that you would think


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibbysam]

As has been said, logistical nightmare if they want it done properly. ID plus vax passport will need to be shown by every single person going through the turnstile. Just shy of 4000 people in the famous five through 8 turnstiles, around 500 per turnstile, taking around a minute to get through and be checked properly. Maths don’t add up for me.

[CropleyWasGod]

It’s to run till February 2022 according to article I saw Assume it can be dispensed with if not deemed needed
But how can they be so sure it will end then
A difficult winter would scupper that you would think


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is to be reviewed every 3 weeks.

[Magpie]

Maybe I'm not explaining masel :greengrin

I'm trying to make the point that a ST holder will have to show their certificate at every game.

I understand that. I’m just stating that the club have already made it clear that lending your season ticket breaches the terms and conditions.

[Chorley Hibee]

There are two likely scenarios that could follow.

The first is that there will be notices up at the stadium but no-one will bother to enforce it.

The second is there will be staff checking everyone coming in and queues will build up and chaos will ensue.

Since the Scottish Government, unlike their counterparts in England, has yet to produce a smartphone app showing vaccination status. All I have is a sheet of paper which could be used by anyone. That is unless we also require photo id to get into a football match.

I smell a total fiasco coming up.

It's going to turn a lot of people away from football, and it will impact clubs with greater attendances in Scotland more so.

[Magpie]

As has been said, logistical nightmare if they want it done properly. ID plus vax passport will need to be shown by every single person going through the turnstile. Just shy of 4000 people in the famous five through 8 turnstiles, around 500 per turnstile, taking around a minute to get through and be checked properly. Maths don’t add up for me.

That’s the way I look at it too. Hopefully some clarification on how they tend to go about it soon.

[brianmc]

ST holders should have to show their certificate at every game, no? Otherwise, there's a risk that they could lend their ST to someone who isn't vaccinated.

So if you lend a pal your season ticket you do the same with your vaccine certificate, simple 🤔. After all, the names on each would have to match.

[JimBHibees]

It's going to turn a lot of people away from football, and it will impact clubs with greater attendances in Scotland more so.

You would hope some sort of sensible solution could be worked out. Maybe season ticket holders could email to the club their vaccination status which would then not require an on the day check as some sort of validation.

[Ronniekirk]

It is to be reviewed every 3 weeks.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Magpie]

It's going to turn a lot of people away from football, and it will impact clubs with greater attendances in Scotland more so.

Definitely. I don’t know what the club are going to do about the season ticket holders who aren’t double vaccinated by the Dundee United game on the 16th October. Will they be entitled to a refund?

[jeffers]

As has been said, logistical nightmare if they want it done properly. ID plus vax passport will need to be shown by every single person going through the turnstile. Just shy of 4000 people in the famous five through 8 turnstiles, around 500 per turnstile, taking around a minute to get through and be checked properly. Maths don’t add up for me.

ID as in photo ID ?

[hibbysam]

ID as in photo ID ?

Not sure, but they’d have to do something to prove you are who the passport says, otherwise anyone can use anyone’s passports and nobody would know - thus defeating the purpose of the exercise.

[wookie70]

Ridiculous decision and am now struggling with a political party to vote for. Both governing parties were my choice in the last election but this may be the last straw for me for both. Details not even finalised before the vote and MSPs whipped to obey.

Nothing to do with the virus and all about a show of control and being in control. I expect it from the SNP but I am disgusted in the Greens.

I have no issue with them asking for negative tests but this is pointless. If it is policed it will be a complete shambles and there are lots of scenarios like mates buying each other tickets so names on tickets and passports don't correspond that render it worthless.

The biggest issue is that those who are double jabbed appear to be completely fearless and may well just come along regardless of how they feel. The narrative now seems to revolve around the vaccine being the only thing that matters and behaviours and distancing are pretty much gone.

It will have no effect whatsoever on covid and shutting the pubs round ER would have a far bigger impact imo if the Government are in the least bit interested in slowing the rise in cases and deaths. Countless other measures are needed before tis and everything I have read suggests going to open air venues is highling unlikely to mean you are infected. Pubs and transport beforehand maybe but not the stadium.

I doubt it will be policed as it would mean arriving at grounds far earlier which would of course increase the chances of infection. If it isn't then what is the point and if policed it needs photo ID to have any real worth.

The most likely to pass it on, the U18s, are fine as are those who have exemptions(no details of this that I spotted) and most bizarrely those working at venues don't need to be vaccinated. A Government struggling big time and trying to appear to be doing something positive. It is a Johnson move from Sturgeon and she should lock her self in the fridge for a few weeks.

It will be interesting to see if ER has 10K in it for Cat C games as loads will simply not bother turning up even if double jabbed.

[Peevemor]

At the risk of becoming boring, the Covid passport has been on the go here in France for about 5-6 weeks now and I've used mine loads of times.

I'd be surprised if the system in Scotland will be much different from here.

The pass is basically a QR code which can be either printed, stocked on your smartphone, or both.

The people scanning it use a smartphone or tablet and it takes about 2 seconds. I've yet to have a problem with scanning mine (paper or phone). A steward to each turnstile queue should be able to check everyone no problem without any delays (unless people without a pass act like dicks).

They're very clear here that ID isn't checked with the pass - only the police can do that if they spot check. People using someone else's pass or loaning somebody their pass will be fined - very heavily for repeat offenders. In general, the people scanning your pass only get your name, DOB and confirmation that the pass is valid.

If you have a valid pass it's really next to no hassle.

Whether you agree in principle is a different matter.

[ToulouseHibs]

At the risk of becoming boring, the Covid passport has been on the go here in France for about 5-6 weeks now and I've used mine loads of times.

I'd be surprised if the system in Scotland will be much different from here.

The pass is basically a QR code which can be either printed, stocked on your smartphone, or both.

The people scanning it use a smartphone or tablet and it takes about 2 seconds. I've yet to have a problem with scanning mine (paper or phone). A steward to each turnstile queue should be able to check everyone no problem without any delays (unless people without a pass act like dicks).

They're very clear here that ID isn't checked with the pass - only the police can do that if they spot check. People using someone else's pass or loaning somebody their pass will be fined - very heavily for repeat offenders. In general, the people scanning your pass only get your name, DOB and confirmation that the pass is valid.

If you have a valid pass it's really next to no hassle.

Whether you agree in principle is a different matter.

Yeah, I just spent the last through days on a business strip starting in France then through Amsterdam and Stuttgart. All that was needed apart from the occasional additional contact information, was the health passport. Dead easy, no fuss.

[gbhibby]

There are two likely scenarios that could follow.

The first is that there will be notices up at the stadium but no-one will bother to enforce it.

The second is there will be staff checking everyone coming in and queues will build up and chaos will ensue.

Since the Scottish Government, unlike their counterparts in England, has yet to produce a smartphone app showing vaccination status. All I have is a sheet of paper which could be used by anyone. That is unless we also require photo id to get into a football match.

I smell a total fiasco coming up.
I can access my vaccination record and show it no problem on my phone don't need an app, just your vaccination number. Shows my name also my season ticket has my name. Could show my photo driving licence as proof of Id. I live in Scotland.We just need to turn up early. Away fans are an issue.

[CentreLine]

Because in 3 weeks time certain people won't be able to attend a football match because there is a few extra people at the game. 9999 at the match, jabbed or not it doesn't matter. 10,001 at the game sorry its now very unsafe and everyone needs 2 vax's.

Ridiculous.

What’s ridiculous is that argument. What ground in Scotland has a capacity of 9999? It’s not about waiting until the 9999th person has passed through the gate before you have to have proof of vaccination. 😏
Mind you, I’d like them to change the limit to 20,000 just so we could see hearts declare they didn’t have to comply.

[DIXIHIBS]

I can access my vaccination record and show it no problem on my phone don't need an app, just your vaccination number. Shows my name also my season ticket has my name. Could show my photo driving licence as proof of Id. I live in Scotland.

Ive got the same. Got a paper copy a few weeks ago then uploaded a digital copy to my phone this week. Hopefully that will be enough without needing an app as well. I doubt very much if every single person will be checked. This is more about encouraging more youngsters to get double jagged with the threat of not getting into venues/football etc.

[marinello59]

I can access my vaccination record and show it no problem on my phone don't need an app, just your vaccination number. Shows my name also my season ticket has my name. Could show my photo driving licence as proof of Id. I live in Scotland.We just need to turn up early. Away fans are an issue.

Civil liberties are a valid issue for many as well. G|obal pandemic or not we are being asked to give up a hell of a lot.

[Andy74]

Civil liberties are a valid issue for many as well. G|obal pandemic or not we are being asked to give up a hell of a lot.

Having to occasionally show someone a certificate to confirm I’ve had vaccines during a pandemic to be able to join in certain events isn’t high up on my list of things that impact my civil liberties.

I could be a girl in Afghanistan for example.

[007]

Ridiculous decision and am now struggling with a political party to vote for. Both governing parties were my choice in the last election but this may be the last straw for me for both. Details not even finalised before the vote and MSPs whipped to obey.

Nothing to do with the virus and all about a show of control and being in control. I expect it from the SNP but I am disgusted in the Greens.

I have no issue with them asking for negative tests but this is pointless. If it is policed it will be a complete shambles and there are lots of scenarios like mates buying each other tickets so names on tickets and passports don't correspond that render it worthless.

The biggest issue is that those who are double jabbed appear to be completely fearless and may well just come along regardless of how they feel. The narrative now seems to revolve around the vaccine being the only thing that matters and behaviours and distancing are pretty much gone.

It will have no effect whatsoever on covid and shutting the pubs round ER would have a far bigger impact imo if the Government are in the least bit interested in slowing the rise in cases and deaths. Countless other measures are needed before tis and everything I have read suggests going to open air venues is highling unlikely to mean you are infected. Pubs and transport beforehand maybe but not the stadium.

I doubt it will be policed as it would mean arriving at grounds far earlier which would of course increase the chances of infection. If it isn't then what is the point and if policed it needs photo ID to have any real worth.

The most likely to pass it on, the U18s, are fine as are those who have exemptions(no details of this that I spotted) and most bizarrely those working at venues don't need to be vaccinated. A Government struggling big time and trying to appear to be doing something positive. It is a Johnson move from Sturgeon and she should lock her self in the fridge for a few weeks.

It will be interesting to see if ER has 10K in it for Cat C games as loads will simply not bother turning up even if double jabbed.

What evidence have you got that the double jabbed appear to be completely fearless? There's a stronger case to say it's the unvaccinated who are fearless, otherwise they would have got the vaccine. How are the double jabbed any more likely to come along regardless of how they feel? You're making stuff up.

Sounds like you are saying distancing should be reintroduced. Surely you're not suggesting it is better to go back to that so that the unvaccinated can attend?

What are the behaviours you're referring to that are pretty much gone?

[marinello59]

Having to occasionally show someone a certificate to confirm I’ve had vaccines during a pandemic to be able to join in certain events isn’t high up on my list of things that impact my civil liberties.

I could be a girl in Afghanistan for example.

It is a big issue for some though.

[Antifa Hibs]

What’s ridiculous is that argument. What ground in Scotland has a capacity of 9999? It’s not about waiting until the 9999th person has passed through the gate before you have to have proof of vaccination. ��
Mind you, I’d like them to change the limit to 20,000 just so we could see hearts declare they didn’t have to comply.

"Any event, of any nature, which has more than 10,000 people in attendance"

So my point still stands. You could have 9999 people at Tannadice and anyone and everyone is allowed to go. But some of those fans (if they aren't double jagged) can't goto ER or Tynie and potentially Aberdeen.

What happens with Aberdeen PATG punters? They've sold 8500 season tickets so have 1500 up for grabs before they reach the magic 10k. A fan could buy a ticket on the Monday and be allowed to go. Then they have good sales and 3 days later Aberdeen have sold over 10,000 tickets and that punter with the one jag or no jags is now no longer allowed to attend.

Like I say, ridiculous.

[jeffers]

Not sure, but they’d have to do something to prove you are who the passport says, otherwise anyone can use anyone’s passports and nobody would know - thus defeating the purpose of the exercise.

It’s a fair point, but I don’t personally have any up to date photo ID and even it’s then just another thing to carry. OK for folk who have a photo ID driving licence and maybe carry that as a matter of course.

[hibbysam]

At the risk of becoming boring, the Covid passport has been on the go here in France for about 5-6 weeks now and I've used mine loads of times.

I'd be surprised if the system in Scotland will be much different from here.

The pass is basically a QR code which can be either printed, stocked on your smartphone, or both.

The people scanning it use a smartphone or tablet and it takes about 2 seconds. I've yet to have a problem with scanning mine (paper or phone). A steward to each turnstile queue should be able to check everyone no problem without any delays (unless people without a pass act like dicks).

They're very clear here that ID isn't checked with the pass - only the police can do that if they spot check. People using someone else's pass or loaning somebody their pass will be fined - very heavily for repeat offenders. In general, the people scanning your pass only get your name, DOB and confirmation that the pass is valid.

If you have a valid pass it's really next to no hassle.

Whether you agree in principle is a different matter.

So if they don’t check ID then how can you be fined? No way of knowing who is who unless you know the person.

[Andy74]

It is a big issue for some though.

Why though? It is hardly invasive. We’ve all been asked to get vaccinated to help stop large numbers of people dying. It isn’t hugely difficult.

[gbhibby]

Civil liberties are a valid issue for many as well. G|obal pandemic or not we are being asked to give up a hell of a lot.
Don't go to the game then.

[DIXIHIBS]

"Any event, of any nature, which has more than 10,000 people in attendance"

So my point still stands. You could have 9999 people at Tannadice and anyone and everyone is allowed to go. But some of those fans (if they aren't double jagged) can't goto ER or Tynie and potentially Aberdeen.

What happens with Aberdeen PATG punters? They've sold 8500 season tickets so have 1500 up for grabs before they reach the magic 10k. A fan could buy a ticket on the Monday and be allowed to go. Then they have good sales and 3 days later Aberdeen have sold over 10,000 tickets and that punter with the one jag or no jags is now no longer to attend.

Like I say, ridiculous.
Im sure clubs will make a decision a few days before actual game. If say 9000 plus tickets have been sold a few days before the game then fans will be told passports will be required. If 9999 and turn up on day of game then everyone will have their passports them so no problem.

[Peevemor]

So if they don’t check ID then how can you be fined? No way of knowing who is who unless you know the person.

Only if the police carry out spot checks, which I've seen on the TV news but haven't seen or even heard of any otherwise.

That's how it works here anyway, the biggest difference being that in France your supposed to carry ID at all times.

[gbhibby]

At the risk of becoming boring, the Covid passport has been on the go here in France for about 5-6 weeks now and I've used mine loads of times.

I'd be surprised if the system in Scotland will be much different from here.

The pass is basically a QR code which can be either printed, stocked on your smartphone, or both.

The people scanning it use a smartphone or tablet and it takes about 2 seconds. I've yet to have a problem with scanning mine (paper or phone). A steward to each turnstile queue should be able to check everyone no problem without any delays (unless people without a pass act like dicks).

They're very clear here that ID isn't checked with the pass - only the police can do that if they spot check. People using someone else's pass or loaning somebody their pass will be fined - very heavily for repeat offenders. In general, the people scanning your pass only get your name, DOB and confirmation that the pass is valid.

If you have a valid pass it's really next to no hassle.

Whether you agree in principle is a different matter.
Thats how I think they could do it here convert info into qr code. Hibs have scanners as had problem with season ticket at turnstilesso the security person scanned it with their scanner got into ground

[marinello59]

Don't go to the game then.

I said it was an issue for some. And whether you or me agree with them or not it is a valid concern.

[hibbysam]

Only if the police carry out spot checks, which I've seen on the TV news but haven't seen or even heard of any otherwise.

That's how it works here anyway, the biggest difference being that in France your supposed to carry ID at all times.

The other thing is 50% at Easter road requires one, but 100% at say st mirren (think that’s below 10k) doesn’t.

[gbhibby]

I said it was an issue for some. And whether you or me agree it is a valid concern.
Was not aimed at you hope you did not think that. If someone doesn't want to conform they should not go to the game. Our liberties have been compromised for years a bit of perspective is required.

[JammyDoidger]

Not read previous posts and not sure if this has been mentioned, but they might have gave us at least 8 weeks notice, so that those people who haven't had any jags, can go get double jabbed in time for this coming into place. I just bought a scotland ticket the other day and now won't be able to attend as ive only had one jab. Dissapointing news, they are now pretty much forcing you into it which I'm a bit uncomfortable with.

[Onion]

As a temporary measure during a pandemic, I've no problem with large events being restricted to the vaccinated - as long as it is temporary, vaccination is free of charge, and those that still choose not to be vaccinated are offered a full refund !

No one has a right to get into a football match, so those who choose not to meet the criteria have every right to stay away and to a refund. If that means fewer fans at matches during the pandemic, so be it.

[Peevemor]

As a temporary measure during a pandemic, I've no problem with large events being restricted to the vaccinated - as long as it is temporary, vaccination is free of charge, and those that still choose not to be vaccinated are offered a full refund !

No one has a right to get into a football match, so those who choose not to meet the criteria have every right to stay away and to a refund. If that means fewer fans at matches during the pandemic, so be it.For what it's worth, the requirement for Covid passports in France is meant to run until the middle of November. Whether that will be extended remains to be seen.

[neil7908]

As a temporary measure during a pandemic, I've no problem with large events being restricted to the vaccinated - as long as it is temporary, vaccination is free of charge, and those that still choose not to be vaccinated are offered a full refund !

No one has a right to get into a football match, so those who choose not to meet the criteria have every right to stay away and to a refund. If that means fewer fans at matches during the pandemic, so be it.

This.

[Onion]

Not read previous posts and not sure if this has been mentioned, but they might have gave us at least 8 weeks notice, so that those people who haven't had any jags, can go get double jabbed in time for this coming into place. I just bought a scotland ticket the other day and now won't be able to attend as ive only had one jab. Dissapointing news, they are now pretty much forcing you into it which I'm a bit uncomfortable with.

The vote has happened, there will be no 8 week notice.

There will be thousands of fans in your position, and those who have no jabs at all, who now find themselves with tickets and unable to get in. Every one of them must be offered a full refund, as the goalposts have moved.

[Glory Lurker]

Easy peasey- set up a body scanner at the turnstiles that can detect the injected chip.

[DIXIHIBS]

Not read previous posts and not sure if this has been mentioned, but they might have gave us at least 8 weeks notice, so that those people who haven't had any jags, can go get double jabbed in time for this coming into place. I just bought a scotland ticket the other day and now won't be able to attend as ive only had one jab. Dissapointing news, they are now pretty much forcing you into it which I'm a bit uncomfortable with.

The reason it is being brought in by beginning of october is because everyone could have been double jagged by that time. I accept this is not the case for eveyone but the vast majority have had the opportunity.

[jgl07]

Only if the police carry out spot checks, which I've seen on the TV news but haven't seen or even heard of any otherwise.

That's how it works here anyway, the biggest difference being that in France your supposed to carry ID at all times.
The question of carrying ID at all times is a very contentious issue here.

Without changing the whole approach to this, the COVID passport idea is totally unenforceable. My suspicion is that everyone will pay lip service to the rules but nothing will happen. After three of four matches everyone will have forgotten that the rule ever existed.

[Peevemor]

The other thing is 50% at Easter road requires one, but 100% at say st mirren (think that’s below 10k) doesn’t.Yeah, there's stuff that doesn't appear to make much sense. In saying that I suppose they have to draw the line somewhere.

As an aside, passes here were meant for all indoor public events of over 50 people. Most cinemas started putting on pass free showings restricted to less than 50 people (no big deal in July/August). That loophole was quickly closed.

As for Easter Road (for example). I've seen people rightly saying that a crowd could be borderline 10k so what happens. Here it's the capacity of the event that counts, not the eventual attendance.