Vaccine Passports for Easter Road

[Ronniekirk]

I know a girl who is the same. She is into yoga etc and her and lots of her friends have had Covid with hardly any ill effects. Her friends who have had vaccines have all been more ill than those who haven't. All anecdotal but it is fairly clear the fitter and stronger you are the less likely that you will suffer major consequences. Her friends all eat very well and are fit and take wellbeing very seriously. They have made an educated choice and not taken the vaccine. I respect them for than particularly as the girl I know has already had the virus and built up immunity. As a fat 50 odd year old I took the vaccine.

If this is all about safety then everyone who hasn't had two jags should not be allowed to attend regardless of age or medical status.

I am a fat 63 year old ffs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

This thread really shows how big the job is that the government have in their hands, given the wildly different opinions, experiences and knowledge we all have.

It’s probably easier when you can have tanks and guns on the streets rather than a free society where we’re all entitled to an opinion, whether it is one of uber compliance or bat**** crazy conspiracy theory.

[HibsGW]

I mean literally all of it...

"Its not a vaccine for starters, you can still catch it and pass it on being a big one." It is by definition a vaccine - 'a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease.'

"I felt I would likely be OK if I did catch it, which proved to be the case". Well done you, great foresight.

"Now that I have had it, I don't see the point in getting the vaccine as I have my own immunity." I'm sure those that are most are risk are delighted that you've taken such a well informed decision to not give a **** about them.

"These added to the fact that it is still experimental chose me not to get it." Stay off of Facebook mate.

Bang on, it’s actually disappointing still having to explain why these things are wrong to people.

[easty]

Forensic biology, granted not virology however enough to understand the processes of the body pretty well. I do not work in a lab which I am guessing is your point, to make my thoughts on the matter irrelevant. There are not a great deal of peer reviewed papers out there regarding the protection given by natural immunity v those who have had the jags. Once there is my position may change. I'm taking part in the trial looking at the antibodies just now and again the results of that might change my mind.

People have got things wrong in the past and I would rather wait on more information before making this choice.

My point had nothing to do with if you worked in a lab or not. You brought having a degree in the subject into the discussion, so as to back yourself up. However, you don’t have a degree in it at all.

A degree in a science discipline isn’t a degree in all science.

[Hibs90]

Please go and Google dictionary definition of a vaccine and then come back and tell me how it is a vaccine.

Its certainly not a case of im alright Jack, I've worn a mask/sanitised throughout. Your reaction is part of what is talked about earlier making out anyone with a different thought process is a nutter.

I have a degree in the subject and have made my choice based on my knowledge, you think I'm wrong fine.

You are wrong. It is a vaccine, that, may I add was created by scientists in an unbelievable time frame. A remarkable achievement in itself.

Has there been complications? Are they side effects? Yes of course, but go look at the side effects leaflet of paracetamol and compare. Side effects happen with every drug or vaccine and it’s a lottery based on your body whether you get any or not.

I work in virology, in a laboratory and I’m very much aware of what a vaccine is, and this one is most definitely a vaccine, which works.

[Casey1875]

I mean literally all of it...

"Its not a vaccine for starters, you can still catch it and pass it on being a big one." It is by definition a vaccine - 'a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease.'

"I felt I would likely be OK if I did catch it, which proved to be the case". Well done you, great foresight.

"Now that I have had it, I don't see the point in getting the vaccine as I have my own immunity." I'm sure those that are most are risk are delighted that you've taken such a well informed decision to not give a **** about them.

"These added to the fact that it is still experimental chose me not to get it." Stay off of Facebook mate.

A vaccine is a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

It was based on a lot of factors that I thought I would be fine, such as the research done, I am young and fit with no underlying health conditions. If any of that wasn't the case I would likely have had it.

It still is considered experimental whether you or anyone else likes it.

[lord bunberry]

Forensic biology, granted not virology however enough to understand the processes of the body pretty well. I do not work in a lab which I am guessing is your point, to make my thoughts on the matter irrelevant. There are not a great deal of peer reviewed papers out there regarding the protection given by natural immunity v those who have had the jags. Once there is my position may change. I'm taking part in the trial looking at the antibodies just now and again the results of that might change my mind.

People have got things wrong in the past and I would rather wait on more information before making this choice.
And you’re entitled to wait before making that choice, but you won’t be able to do the things vaccinated people can.

[mcohibs]

A vaccine is a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

It was based on a lot of factors that I thought I would be fine, such as the research done, I am young and fit with no underlying health conditions. If any of that wasn't the case I would likely have had it.

It still is considered experimental whether you or anyone else likes it.

It's not about you. Getting the vaccine reduces the chance of you spreading Covid to other people and ultimately, those most at risk. It's really not difficult to understand.

Give me some evidence as to how the vaccine is experimental. You've said that a couple of times with nothing to back it up. What is your source for that claim?

[Casey1875]

You are wrong. It is a vaccine, that, may I add was created by scientists in an unbelievable time frame. A remarkable achievement in itself.

Has there been complications? Are they side effects? Yes of course, but go look at the side effects leaflet of paracetamol and compare. Side effects happen with every drug or vaccine and it’s a lottery based on your body whether you get any or not.

I work in virology, in a laboratory and I’m very much aware of what a vaccine is, and this one is most definitely a vaccine, which works.

Can you please tell me the benefits of having this then having already had covid? Is there a measurable difference in protection provided? Or is it just a case of it shouldn't do any harm so get it to get a passport?

[Hibs90]

A vaccine is a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies

There you go, just said it yourself. That’s exactly what the covid vaccine is.

[HibsGW]

Can you please tell me the benefits of having this then having already had covid? Is there a measurable difference in protection provided? Or is it just a case of it shouldn't do any harm so get it to get a passport?

Stronger immunity, natural immunity doesn’t last very long. This has been in the media for the best part of about a year now.

[Hibs90]

Can you please tell me the benefits of having this then having already had covid? Is there a measurable difference in protection provided? Or is it just a case of it shouldn't do any harm so get it to get a passport?

If you were to catch covid for a second time, the vaccine will help stimulate anti-bodies and reduces the risk of transmission to others, and therefore reduce any symptoms you may have. Even if you ended up with zero symptoms, surely the factor alone that it reduces the chances of possible transmission to those more vulnerable would make you think it’s worthwhile.

Sorry but I feel as if your approach is a very selfish one. Personally, if it helps save peoples lives then I’m more than happy to help by taking the vaccine.. Being fairly young myself, and not having had covid before, it’s quite simply a no brainer. As time goes on the vaccine will make improvements as it would in a normal “development” scenario which may take years but this version is a remarkable feat in itself as one which the world should not take lightly. It’s a crying shame that those who are anti vax or believe all the nonsense stuff they read online are having as much of an influence on some, as it may just end up costing someone else’s life.

[Casey1875]

It's not about you. Getting the vaccine reduces the chance of you spreading Covid to other people and ultimately, those most at risk. It's really not difficult to understand.

Give me some evidence as to how the vaccine is experimental. You've said that a couple of times with nothing to back it up. What is your source for that claim?

Can you explain why my own bodies response to having it would be less effective than being double jagged when the jags are basically doing the same thing as my body has done and cause the production of antibodies?

I'm genuinely intrigued to see if there is something I have completely missed.

This touches on the fact that they are still classed as experimental however is now a month old:
https://www.science.org/news/2021/07/when-will-covid-19-vaccines-be-fully-approved-and-does-it-matter-if-they-are

[MWHIBBIES]

CAn get into Portugal and have a holiday, but cant get into Easter Road, this is becoming a joke

To travel to Portugal, do you use a boarding pass, passport, go through security checks etc? Yes. Because that's the criteria to fly.

This is the criteria to get into ER. Simple really.

[MartinfaePorty]

Can you please tell me the benefits of having this then having already had covid? Is there a measurable difference in protection provided? Or is it just a case of it shouldn't do any harm so get it to get a passport?

Just back from holiday where I met a young, very fit guy who caught Covid before he was vaccinated and now has long Covid symptoms. Whilst not being severely detrimental to his life, he would rather not have the intermittent severe headaches that he gets in certain situations, hence why I would be very careful about people being 'confident' if they caught Covid they will be fine.

[Casey1875]

If you were to catch covid for a second time, the vaccine will help stimulate anti-bodies and reduces the risk of transmission to others, and therefore reduce any symptoms you may have. Even if you ended up with zero symptoms, surely the factor alone that it reduces the chances of possible transmission to those more vulnerable would make you think it’s worthwhile.

Sorry but I feel as if your approach is a very selfish one. Personally, if it helps save peoples lives then I’m more than happy to help by taking the vaccine.. Being fairly young myself, and not having had covid before, it’s quite simply a no brainer. As time goes on the vaccine will make improvements as it would in a normal “development” scenario which may take years but this version is a remarkable feat in itself as one which the world should not take lightly. It’s a crying shame that those who are anti vax or believe all the nonsense stuff they read online are having as much of an influence on some, as it may just end up costing someone else’s life.

I am not antivax, I would not try and influence anyone else's decision to have it or not. I would just rather wait until a bit more research is done into this. I get that the majority think my views are stupid and I have already said that I am willing to deal with not being allowed into events etc. I will continue with the antibody trial I am doing and at the end of that or when other information comes available then I may get it.

I do think that any sort of vaccine passport is starting on a slippery slope though but again I realise I'm in the minority with that.

[nonshinyfinish]

In the language of drug development/approval, most of the vaccines are technically experimental – all new treatments are classed as experimental until they are approved by the relevant regulatory body (such as the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine being recently approved by the US FDA).

However, that 'experimental' status covers a huge amount of ground:

At one end you have experimental treatments for rare diseases, which have only been given to a handful of patients purely because so few patients exist.

In the middle are 'normal' drugs for widespread diseases – cancer treatments etc – which have been given to thousands or tens of thousands of patients as part of clinical trials to gather evidence for approval.

At the other end are the covid vaccines. While most are technically still experimental, they've been given to millions and millions of patients and there is almost certainly more data on them than any other 'experimental' treatment in history.

[Moulin Yarns]

A vaccine is a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

It was based on a lot of factors that I thought I would be fine, such as the research done, I am young and fit with no underlying health conditions. If any of that wasn't the case I would likely have had it.

It still is considered experimental whether you or anyone else likes it.

An approved drug, or vaccine, that is approved by scientists for use on the population is most definately experimental!!

Out of curiousity, do you test regularly?

[wookie70]

Sorry but I feel as if your approach is a very selfish one.

Surely going to the Fitba whether vaccinated or not or holding a passport is essentially a selfish act. If you don't want to run the risk stay away from others

[CentreLine]

Without wanting to sound like a dick, you have no clue what you are talking about. The jag is used to create an immune response in your body so having the jag and getting covid both give you the same protection.


How long were mmr vaccines tested prior to being rolled out?

The vaccine works in a different way to having had the virus. Exposure to the virus allows the body’s immune system to recognise and fight infection. One reason that COVID-19 has been so effective is that it actually uses some of the body’s defensive enzymes to penetrate the body. These enzymes are especially found in the nasal passage, the lungs and the gut.

The vaccine has been developed without using parts of covid-19 but instead caused the body to reject the spike proteins on the virus. No vaccine is 100% effective but this model has so far proved very capable of keeping people safe.
The benefit of this change to vaccine manufacture is that, at least in theory, the way for the virus to overcome this defence is to dispense with its spike proteins. That, of course, would be counter productive and a victory for modern science. Fingers crossed 🤞

[calumhibee1]

If you were to catch covid for a second time, the vaccine will help stimulate anti-bodies and reduces the risk of transmission to others, and therefore reduce any symptoms you may have. Even if you ended up with zero symptoms, surely the factor alone that it reduces the chances of possible transmission to those more vulnerable would make you think it’s worthwhile.

Sorry but I feel as if your approach is a very selfish one. Personally, if it helps save peoples lives then I’m more than happy to help by taking the vaccine.. Being fairly young myself, and not having had covid before, it’s quite simply a no brainer. As time goes on the vaccine will make improvements as it would in a normal “development” scenario which may take years but this version is a remarkable feat in itself as one which the world should not take lightly. It’s a crying shame that those who are anti vax or believe all the nonsense stuff they read online are having as much of an influence on some, as it may just end up costing someone else’s life.

With regards to your last sentence there’s no maybe about it. These people HAVE cost people their lives already and will cost a whole lot more.

[HFCdeb]

I wonder where all this will end?

I'm fully vaccinated, but I'm also deeply concerned about the erosion of freedoms and liberties that we're seeing. I'm massively against coercive approaches to promoting vaccination.

Same. Fully vaxxed but have deep concerns about the "passport" so will probably forego football and large events if that is the only way to get in. I don't see what purpose the document serves in the fight against covid other than data collection for God knows whom.

[RoscoHibby]

I am not antivax, I would not try and influence anyone else's decision to have it or not. I would just rather wait until a bit more research is done into this. I get that the majority think my views are stupid and I have already said that I am willing to deal with not being allowed into events etc. I will continue with the antibody trial I am doing and at the end of that or when other information comes available then I may get it.

I do think that any sort of vaccine passport is starting on a slippery slope though but again I realise I'm in the minority with that.

Your not in the minority, seem to be on this site, but literally hundreds of protests all over the world been going on over the use of ‘passports’ as it’s morally and ethically wrong and coercive in nature.

[007]

I am not antivax, I would not try and influence anyone else's decision to have it or not. I would just rather wait until a bit more research is done into this. I get that the majority think my views are stupid and I have already said that I am willing to deal with not being allowed into events etc. I will continue with the antibody trial I am doing and at the end of that or when other information comes available then I may get it.

I do think that any sort of vaccine passport is starting on a slippery slope though but again I realise I'm in the minority with that.

You already have tried to influence people with what you have posted on here. Dangerous stuff when you claim to have a degree on the subject. Then when questioned about it you admit it is a forensic biology degree you have and not virology.

[Casey1875]

An approved drug, or vaccine, that is approved by scientists for use on the population is most definately experimental!!

Out of curiousity, do you test regularly?

Yes I do. Twice a week. You?

[Hibs90]

With regards to your last sentence there’s no maybe about it. These people HAVE cost people their lives already and will cost a whole lot more.

Yeah that's a fair comment Calum.

[calumhibee1]

Same. Fully vaxxed but have deep concerns about the "passport" so will probably forego football and large events if that is the only way to get in. I don't see what purpose the document serves in the fight against covid other than data collection for God knows whom.

You don’t see what purpose having to prove you’ve had a vaccine and are therefore numerous times safer to everyone else in attendance serves?l and the only reason you can see for introducing this is data collection? Really?

[Rumble de Thump]

Can you explain why my own bodies response to having it would be less effective than being double jagged when the jags are basically doing the same thing as my body has done and cause the production of antibodies?

I'm genuinely intrigued to see if there is something I have completely missed.

This touches on the fact that they are still classed as experimental however is now a month old:
https://www.science.org/news/2021/07/when-will-covid-19-vaccines-be-fully-approved-and-does-it-matter-if-they-are

You can get this information from studies by reputable organisations with a simple search on Google that takes about two seconds. It won't be a case of you missing anything. You've obviously not actually looked for the information.

[Hibs90]

Your not in the minority, seem to be on this site, but literally hundreds of protests all over the world been going on over the use of ‘passports’ as it’s morally and ethically wrong and coercive in nature.

If it helps save lives, then what's the issue with passports?

[wookie70]

But its not about their health. It's about the health of others. This "I'm alright Jack" stuff keeps coming up. They will almost certainly be fine (although they have less chance of issues if vaccinated).

They are putting others at greater risk by not getting it.


We are all making choices about putting others at risk. I rarely go anywhere that there are crowds or groups of people. The fitba is my one exception. SHould I be groaning every time I see the supermarket car parks mobbed or kids walking down the road together arm in arm. By going to teh fitba I am adopting an I'm alright Jack attitude and so is everyone else that attends vaccinated or not

[ElginHibbie]

Same. Fully vaxxed but have deep concerns about the "passport" so will probably forego football and large events if that is the only way to get in. I don't see what purpose the document serves in the fight against covid other than data collection for God knows whom.

To stop people who are unvaccinated, and therefore much more likely to be a strain on the NHS if they do catch it, going to big events where there would be a higher chance of transmission.

[Casey1875]

The vaccine works in a different way to having had the virus. Exposure to the virus allows the body’s immune system to recognise and fight infection. One reason that COVID-19 has been so effective is that it actually uses some of the body’s defensive enzymes to penetrate the body. These enzymes are especially found in the nasal passage, the lungs and the gut.

The vaccine has been developed without using parts of covid-19 but instead caused the body to reject the spike proteins on the virus. No vaccine is 100% effective but this model has so far proved very capable of keeping people safe.
The benefit of this change to vaccine manufacture is that, at least in theory, the way for the virus to overcome this defence is to dispense with its spike proteins. That, of course, would be counter productive and a victory for modern science. Fingers crossed 🤞


Thank you for actually answering the question

[Rumble de Thump]

Same. Fully vaxxed but have deep concerns about the "passport" so will probably forego football and large events if that is the only way to get in. I don't see what purpose the document serves in the fight against covid other than data collection for God knows whom.

How can you not see its purpose? It has only one purpose. Proof that a person has been fully vaccinated, therefore less likely to spread the virus. That's the whole point of it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Can you explain why my own bodies response to having it would be less effective than being double jagged when the jags are basically doing the same thing as my body has done and cause the production of antibodies?

I'm genuinely intrigued to see if there is something I have completely missed.

This touches on the fact that they are still classed as experimental however is now a month old:
https://www.science.org/news/2021/07/when-will-covid-19-vaccines-be-fully-approved-and-does-it-matter-if-they-are

We can all use Google. :wink:

https://fullfact.org/online/covid-vaccines-not-medical-experiment/

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-vaccines-idUSL1N2M70MW

https://theconversation.com/you-dont-need-to-worry-about-covid-vaccines-being-unnatural-or-synthetic-166268

https://theconversation.com/covid-19-vaccines-produce-t-cell-immunity-that-lasts-and-works-against-virus-variants-166757

https://theconversation.com/what-happens-when-the-covid-19-vaccines-enter-the-body-a-road-map-for-kids-and-grown-ups-164624

https://theconversation.com/pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-now-has-full-fda-approval-heres-what-that-means-for-unvaccinated-people-organizations-and-pharma-166709

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes I do. Twice a week. You?

No, but I rarely meet other people and still wear a mask, avoid crowds, keep a distance etc. I'm not taking risks that would put me in the position of possibly catching Covid. I realise it is easy for me living in a small rural community and not in a city, but there you have it.

[MartinfaePorty]

I know a girl who is the same. She is into yoga etc and her and lots of her friends have had Covid with hardly any ill effects. Her friends who have had vaccines have all been more ill than those who haven't. All anecdotal but it is fairly clear the fitter and stronger you are the less likely that you will suffer major consequences. Her friends all eat very well and are fit and take wellbeing very seriously. They have made an educated choice and not taken the vaccine. I respect them for than particularly as the girl I know has already had the virus and built up immunity. As a fat 50 odd year old I took the vaccine.

If this is all about safety then everyone who hasn't had two jags should not be allowed to attend regardless of age or medical status.

My chiropractor is exactly the same. Feels she can 'handle' getting Covid by keeping fit and healthy and believes there are more negatives than positives for her getting the jag. Has actually made me think twice about whether I'll be going back to her. There is no doubt, though, that your overall health condition is a major factor and 'MD' in Private Eye has been saying throughout that keeping fit and healthy is the best way to protect yourself against any disease and its effects, and I hope that this drives the government to invest more in encouraging the country to be healthier.

[Bristolhibby]

Same. Fully vaxxed but have deep concerns about the "passport" so will probably forego football and large events if that is the only way to get in. I don't see what purpose the document serves in the fight against covid other than data collection for God knows whom.

As has been said, companies are snooping on you all the time.

Use Google = data.

Facebook account = data

Shop online = data

Sainsburys Nectar card = data

Use your debit card = data

Pretty sure the nefarious data miners already know that you are a Hibernian Fan.

J

[Brightside]

My chiropractor is exactly the same. Feels she can 'handle' getting Covid by keeping fit and healthy and believes there are more negatives than positives for her getting the jag. Has actually made me think twice about whether I'll be going back to her. There is no doubt, though, that your overall health condition is a major factor and 'MD' in Private Eye has been saying throughout that keeping fit and healthy is the best way to protect yourself against any disease and its effects, and I hope that this drives the government to invest more in encouraging the country to be healthier.

I think that’s shocking btw. Does the chiro have a sign up saying they aren’t bothering getting the jab?

[MartinfaePorty]

I think that’s shocking btw. Does the chiro have a sign up saying they aren’t bothering getting the jab?

Nope. I've actually not had an appointment for a few weeks and my wife only told me this last week, so haven't been back since I found out. I would hope she is telling all her patients to give them the option whether to continue with her.

[RoscoHibby]

To stop people who are unvaccinated, and therefore much more likely to be a strain on the NHS if they do catch it, going to big events where there would be a higher chance of transmission.

That’s simply not the case.

Latest data: https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/8918/21-09-01-covid19-publication_report.pdf

Scroll to page 40.

Although I even take this with a pinch of salt due to the efficacy of the tests and the well known false positive figures..but admissions to hospital is the real bottom line for me.

[500miles]

My chiropractor is exactly the same. Feels she can 'handle' getting Covid by keeping fit and healthy and believes there are more negatives than positives for her getting the jag. Has actually made me think twice about whether I'll be going back to her. There is no doubt, though, that your overall health condition is a major factor and 'MD' in Private Eye has been saying throughout that keeping fit and healthy is the best way to protect yourself against any disease and its effects, and I hope that this drives the government to invest more in encouraging the country to be healthier.

Chiropractors are Shamen aping physiotherapists.

[EI255]

Doesn’t matter, it’s more than 10,000 people there so it will be neededAnd rightly so.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[Zambernardi1875]

Yes. Hence why they were all invited to a meeting with government advisors to try and persuade them to stop reading crap off Facebook and go and get jabbed. The clubs aren’t allowed to force it on them and the majority do not have 2 jabs!!

Cheers, it’ll be tough convincing fans to get fully vaccinated for entry into stadiums when players aren’t.

[nonshinyfinish]

That’s simply not the case.

Latest data: https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/8918/21-09-01-covid19-publication_report.pdf

Scroll to page 40.

Although I even take this with a pinch of salt due to the efficacy of the tests and the well known false positive figures..but admissions to hospital is the real bottom line for me.

You've fallen prey to base-rate fallacy.

The absolute number of double-vaccinated people admitted to hospital is higher because there are far more of them (3.4m vs 1m according to the report you linked to).

You can see from the '% Admissions' columns that unvaccinated people are approximately twice as likely to be hospitalised compared to double-vaccinated people (0.015% vs 0.008%).

[JimBHibees]

That’s simply not the case.

Latest data: https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/8918/21-09-01-covid19-publication_report.pdf

Scroll to page 40.

Although I even take this with a pinch of salt due to the efficacy of the tests and the well known false positive figures..but admissions to hospital is the real bottom line for me.

Bottom of page 41 paraphrasing as couldn't copy it 'since 10 May 2021 a larger proportion of Covid 19 related acute admissions have occurred in unvaccinated populations than populations with one of two doses'.

[RoscoHibby]

I’m simply pointing out that unvaxxed aren’t being a bigger strain on the NHS, as was said earlier. I get the % comparison.

The one thing that seems lost on a lot of people here is no one, not a single person on this planet knows the long term implications of ‘training’ our DNA to make a spike protein that’s new to the human body…time will tell.

But comparing the risk factors of covid to an adverse reaction, from data from people in my age range, it’s a no-brainer for me not to get it. Especially with the data coming out of Israel re. It’s efficacy.

FWIW this whole thing makes me incredibly sad, we’re all hibbys, I’d have a pint with anyone on here as we’re all bonded by this crazy and beautiful club…

[wookie70]

That’s simply not the case.

Latest data: https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/8918/21-09-01-covid19-publication_report.pdf

Scroll to page 40.

Although I even take this with a pinch of salt due to the efficacy of the tests and the well known false positive figures..but admissions to hospital is the real bottom line for me.


There are more people in hospital who are single or double dose vaccinated than those who are unvaccinated. That is of course more due to age and underlying health issues but it is important because those who are choosing to not be vaccinated are being demonised and called selfish etc. Those who are vaccinated may be more likely to socialise and go out so it may be they are just as or more selfish that those that are unvaccinated. Anyone who wants to go to ER because they are vaccinated and wants to stops others doing so because they refuse to carry a bit of paper(you can still be vaccinated but want it to be kept private like your other medical history) is surely being selfish too. The numbers in hospital must show that vaccinated people are taking risks so if they are and they have a chance, albeit reduced, then they are also posing a risk for others. Those in hospital who are vaccinated have actually caught Covid so they clearly took some chances and that would have impacted on others.

[nonshinyfinish]

I’m simply pointing out that unvaxxed aren’t being a bigger strain on the NHS, as was said earlier. I get the % comparison.

Per person, they are a bigger strain on the NHS. If they were all double vaccinated, the total number of hospital admissions would be lower.

You say you get the % comparison but it doesn't seem like you do.

[CentreLine]

I’m simply pointing out that unvaxxed aren’t being a bigger strain on the NHS, as was said earlier. I get the % comparison.

The one thing that seems lost on a lot of people here is no one, not a single person on this planet knows the long term implications of ‘training’ our DNA to make a spike protein that’s new to the human body…time will tell.

But comparing the risk factors of covid to an adverse reaction, from data from people in my age range, it’s a no-brainer for me not to get it. Especially with the data coming out of Israel re. It’s efficacy.

FWIW this whole thing makes me incredibly sad, we’re all hibbys, I’d have a pint with anyone on here as we’re all bonded by this crazy and beautiful club…

It’s not our body that creates a new spike protein. What the vaccine does is prevents the covid-19 virus spike proteins from connecting to our bodies.

[500miles]

I’m simply pointing out that unvaxxed aren’t being a bigger strain on the NHS, as was said earlier. I get the % comparison.

The one thing that seems lost on a lot of people here is no one, not a single person on this planet knows the long term implications of ‘training’ our DNA to make a spike protein that’s new to the human body…time will tell.

But comparing the risk factors of covid to an adverse reaction, from data from people in my age range, it’s a no-brainer for me not to get it. Especially with the data coming out of Israel re. It’s efficacy.

FWIW this whole thing makes me incredibly sad, we’re all hibbys, I’d have a pint with anyone on here as we’re all bonded by this crazy and beautiful club…

This is so misreprentitive of the data as to seem dishonest, and to end your post with glib bonhomie seems like deflection.

The data shown, particularly in Israel (since you've used that example) the vaccine is overwhelmingly effective in reducing hospitalisation and severe illness.

I've copied over a response to various anti vax talking points, particularly since you're so worried about the long term effects.

What does seem to reduce over time is immunity, particularly in the face of the delta variant. This suggests that a regime similar to the flu jag for the most at risk may be the way forward.


mRNA vaccines have been being studied for over a decade (including human trials).Current COVID vaccines have been extremely well studied, with sample sizes of hundreds of thousands of people, and studies have been compiled into large meta-analyses/systematic reviews. Thus, the short-term risks of the vaccines are extremely well-documented, and the benefits outweigh the risks.

The only “unknown” is about long-term effects; however no vaccine has ever caused the type of widespread, serious side effect years down the road that everyone is afraid of.Nearly all side effects occur shortly after vaccination .The only example of a sided effect that showed up months later appear within a year (whereas we’ve been using COVID vaccines for over a year) and was rare. The vaccine benefits still outweighed the risks.

Vaccines rarely cause long-term (future) side effects because they use low doses over a short time.Vaccines simply train your immune system.Vaccines are quickly removed from the body.Most vaccine components were well-studied, and their safety is known.

mRNA does not alter your DNA.

mRNA is very quickly broken down and removed.

mRNA in vaccines cannot make your body produce entire viruses.You are constantly exposed to mRNA from viruses (e.g., from colds)If you catch COVID, your cells will use viral mRNA to make proteins just like they do from the vaccine, but…Your cells will make entire viruses, not just a single protein.You will be exposed to far higher levels of mRNA.

Side effects from immune stimulation will usually happen right away and will usually be worse from actual infection with COVID.

A demand for long-term studies is meaningless unless you can justify why a particular length of time is needed.No matter how long something has been studied, it is always technically possible that an effect won’t show up until slightly after the length of that study.This is true for all medications, foods, minerals, vitamins, etc., yet we don’t fear most of them.Therefore, you must provide actual evidence or reasoning to think that a futre side-effect is actually likely.

Focusing on a highly-unlikely, unknown, hypothetical risk from the vaccine while downplaying the very real and serious risk from COVID is bad risk assessment.Fears over unknown long-term effects of the vaccines are baseless. The burden of proof is on anyone claiming that the vaccines are dangerous.

[hibsbollah]

Your not in the minority, seem to be on this site, but literally hundreds of protests all over the world been going on over the use of ‘passports’ as it’s morally and ethically wrong and coercive in nature.

Coercion isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Traffic lights involve a degree of coercion.

[RoscoHibby]

I’ve not got the time or the will for this atm. Im out. Out of going to ER as well it seems.

[CentreLine]

There are more people in hospital who are single or double dose vaccinated than those who are unvaccinated. That is of course more due to age and underlying health issues but it is important because those who are choosing to not be vaccinated are being demonised and called selfish etc. Those who are vaccinated may be more likely to socialise and go out so it may be they are just as or more selfish that those that are unvaccinated. Anyone who wants to go to ER because they are vaccinated and wants to stops others doing so because they refuse to carry a bit of paper(you can still be vaccinated but want it to be kept private like your other medical history) is surely being selfish too. The numbers in hospital must show that vaccinated people are taking risks so if they are and they have a chance, albeit reduced, then they are also posing a risk for others. Those in hospital who are vaccinated have actually caught Covid so they clearly took some chances and that would have impacted on others.

So much wrong with that argument. Of the 10,128+ people who were recorded as having died yesterday with covid, likely every one of them would prefer to have had the improved chances that a vaccine offers. Some
Will have been vaccinated but no vaccine is 100% effective. Nobody has suggested they are.
The reality of the situation is that governments and health specialists across the world are doing their best to create a situation where Covid-19 moves from Pandemic to Endemic. People will still die in tragical high numbers but the virus will no longer pose a threat to the continued existence of humans on the planet. That is reflected in numbers we are seeing hospitalised and dying here in thenUK where over 80% of the population have taken the opportunity to to receive the vaccine. Currently vaccine is our best hope of achieving that Endemic reality.

Perversely, there are equally bright people employed by governments across the world to create the means to destroy human life in huge numbers. We call it defence but that’s another argument

[Stairway 2 7]

Can you explain why my own bodies response to having it would be less effective than being double jagged when the jags are basically doing the same thing as my body has done and cause the production of antibodies?

I'm genuinely intrigued to see if there is something I have completely missed.

This touches on the fact that they are still classed as experimental however is now a month old:
https://www.science.org/news/2021/07/when-will-covid-19-vaccines-be-fully-approved-and-does-it-matter-if-they-are

It's been fully approved by the cdc and will be by the eu by the end of the month uk will follow suit

[cookin_on_gaz]

I’ve not got the time or the will for this atm. Im out. Out of going to ER as well it seems.

Same here, I love going to Easter Road but now looks as tho I won’t be back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Is the W.H.O mainstream enough for you?

No need to be such a tool about your reply either, I'm already vaccinated and my pals are able enough to think for themselves. You should try it sometime yourself.

Recently, a radically new approach to vaccination has been developed. It involves the direct introduction into appropriate tissues of a plasmid containing the DNA sequence encoding the antigen(s) against which an immune response is sought, and relies on the in situ production of the target antigen. This approach offers a number of potential advantages over traditional approaches, including the stimulation of both B- and T-cell responses, improved vaccine stability, the absence of any infectious agent and the relative ease of large-scale manufacture. As proof of the principle of DNA vaccination, immune responses in animals have been obtained using genes from a variety of infectious agents, including influenza virus, hepatitis B virus, human immunodeficiency virus, rabies virus, lymphocytic chorio-meningitis virus, malarial parasites and mycoplasmas. In some cases, protection from disease in animals has also been obtained. However, the value and advantages of DNA vaccines must be assessed on a case-by-case basis and their applicability will depend on the nature of the agent being immunized against, the nature of the antigen and the type of immune response required for protection.

The field of DNA vaccination is developing rapidly. Vaccines currently being developed use not only DNA, but also include adjuncts that assist DNA to enter cells, target it towards specific cells, or that may act as adjuvants in stimulating or directing the immune response. Ultimately, the distinction between a sophisticated DNA vaccine and a simple viral vector may not be clear. Many aspects of the immune response generated by DNA vaccines are not understood. However, this has not impeded significant progress towards the use of this type of vaccine in humans, and clinical trials have begun.

The first such vaccines licensed for marketing are likely to use plasmid DNA derived from bacterial cells. In future, others may use RNA or may use complexes of nucleic acid molecules and other entities. These guidelines address the production and control of vaccines based on plasmid DNA intended for use in humans. The purpose of these guidelines is to indicate:

appropriate methods for the production and control of plasmid DNA vaccines; and
specific information that should be included in submissions by manufacturers to national control authorities in support of applications for the authorization of clinical trials and marketing.
It is recognized that the development and application of nucleic acid vaccines are evolving rapidly. Thus, their control should be approached in a flexible manner so that it can be modified as experience is gained in production and use. The intention of these guidelines is to provide a scientifically sound basis for the production and control of DNA vaccines intended for use in humans, and to assure their consistent ssafety and efficacy. Individual countries may wish to use these guidelines to develop their own national guidelines for DNA vaccines

Vaccine Quality
Related Health Topics
Treatments: drugs, medicines and procedures
Biologicals
Prevention & Safety
Vaccines and immunization
https://www.who.int/teams/health-product-policy-and-standards/standards-and-specifications/vaccines-quality/dna

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2021/01/11/covid-19-vaccines-cant-alter-your-dna-heres-why/amp/

This is a great article on the misconceptions around mrna dna started by actual antivax loons

[Stairway 2 7]

Same. Fully vaxxed but have deep concerns about the "passport" so will probably forego football and large events if that is the only way to get in. I don't see what purpose the document serves in the fight against covid other than data collection for God knows whom.
Have you got a mobile phone do you use the Internet.. its pretty mad that people don't think all of our information isn't already out there

[hibbyfraelibby]

I think if nothing else this thread has proved that they still walk amongst us...😉

[Ronniekirk]

I am not antivax, I would not try and influence anyone else's decision to have it or not. I would just rather wait until a bit more research is done into this. I get that the majority think my views are stupid and I have already said that I am willing to deal with not being allowed into events etc. I will continue with the antibody trial I am doing and at the end of that or when other information comes available then I may get it.

I do think that any sort of vaccine passport is starting on a slippery slope though but again I realise I'm in the minority with that.

Plenty Tory M Ps are against any form of vaccine passport


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Selkirkhibs]

Personally, I couldn't wait for the vaccines and took up the offer of them as soon as they were offered. However, I don't think folk should be forced into having them if they want to attend events etc. I would hope those who are unable to attend Easter Road would not seek a refund or stop putting their money into the club as its not Hibs fault that they can't attend.

[nonshinyfinish]

It's been fully approved by the cdc and will be by the eu by the end of the month uk will follow suitThe FDA, not the CDC.

[degenerated]

Bottom of page 41 paraphrasing as couldn't copy it 'since 10 May 2021 a larger proportion of Covid 19 related acute admissions have occurred in unvaccinated populations than populations with one of two doses'.And if you look at that statistically it will be a much higher frequency as there are many times more vaccinated than unvaccinated.
For the numbers just now you would need to multiply the number of unvaccinated people in hospital by about 7 or 8 to have a meaningful comparison.

[007]

I prefer to listen to doctors and nurses on the front line than unknown sources on Facebook.

https://youtu.be/PmmelWHeAKc

[degenerated]

There are more people in hospital who are single or double dose vaccinated than those who are unvaccinated. That is of course more due to age and underlying health issues but it is important because those who are choosing to not be vaccinated are being demonised and called selfish etc. Those who are vaccinated may be more likely to socialise and go out so it may be they are just as or more selfish that those that are unvaccinated. Anyone who wants to go to ER because they are vaccinated and wants to stops others doing so because they refuse to carry a bit of paper(you can still be vaccinated but want it to be kept private like your other medical history) is surely being selfish too. The numbers in hospital must show that vaccinated people are taking risks so if they are and they have a chance, albeit reduced, then they are also posing a risk for others. Those in hospital who are vaccinated have actually caught Covid so they clearly took some chances and that would have impacted on others.For every unvaccinated person there are 8 who are, based on those eligible for it, therefore of course there will be more of them hospitalised.

There's a lot less dying now though, isn't there?

[Ronniekirk]

Cheers, it’ll be tough convincing fans to get fully vaccinated for entry into stadiums when players aren’t.

Elite athletes got all these exemptions during lockdown Would be interesting to hear why so many haven’t been vaccinated
Role Models for younger people
It’s an interesting one


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[degenerated]

Coercion isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Traffic lights involve a degree of coercion.It's the big note fine and 3 points on the licence that's the coercion :greengrin

[Peevemor]

Your not in the minority, seem to be on this site, but literally hundreds of protests all over the world been going on over the use of ‘passports’ as it’s morally and ethically wrong and coercive in nature.

I've already posted this elsewhere, but there are a fair number of people (I don't know what proportion) who have taken part in the protests in France who are fully vaccinated but are against the principle of Covid passports.

I was vaccinated pretty much ASAP, but my wife had her second jag only this week and very much against her will. Our GP, despite being signed off for 3-4 months after catching Covid, still advises against vaccination.

For what it's worth I don't think the science is as black & white as governments the world over would have us believe, but neither do I think it's as risky as others are saying. The civil liberties thing is another question.

It really isn't easy.

[007]

I've already posted this elsewhere, but there are a fair number of people (I don't know what proportion) who have taken part in the protests in France who are fully vaccinated but are against the principle of Covid passports.

I was vaccinated pretty much ASAP, but my wife had her second jag only this week and very much against her will. Our GP, despite being signed off for 3-4 months after catching Covid, still advises against vaccination.

For what it's worth I don't think the science is as black & white as governments the world over would have us believe, but neither do I think it's as risky as others are saying. The civil liberties thing is another question.

It really isn't easy.

I'd be looking for a new GP.

[Northernhibee]

I've already posted this elsewhere, but there are a fair number of people (I don't know what proportion) who have taken part in the protests in France who are fully vaccinated but are against the principle of Covid passports.

I was vaccinated pretty much ASAP, but my wife had her second jag only this week and very much against her will. Our GP, despite being signed off for 3-4 months after catching Covid, still advises against vaccination.

For what it's worth I don't think the science is as black & white as governments the world over would have us believe, but neither do I think it's as risky as others are saying. The civil liberties thing is another question.

It really isn't easy.

Your GP should be sacked.

[green day]

I've already posted this elsewhere, but there are a fair number of people (I don't know what proportion) who have taken part in the protests in France who are fully vaccinated but are against the principle of Covid passports.

I was vaccinated pretty much ASAP, but my wife had her second jag only this week and very much against her will. Our GP, despite being signed off for 3-4 months after catching Covid, still advises against vaccination.

For what it's worth I don't think the science is as black & white as governments the world over would have us believe, but neither do I think it's as risky as others are saying. The civil liberties thing is another question.

It really isn't easy.

Someone said to Macron the other week "how can you ignore 250000 people protesting about the pass sanitaire"

His answer? "More than 250000 people will receive a vaccine today"

And as for your doctor, they need to have a look at vaccine side effects v coronavirus effects - they can do that while looking for another job.

[CentreLine]

I'd be looking for a new GP.

Yeh, my sister’s husband was a GP and 100% pro smoking. Figured it was great for stress. Such a WWII period belief

[SQHib]

Can you please tell me the benefits of having this then having already had covid? Is there a measurable difference in protection provided? Or is it just a case of it shouldn't do any harm so get it to get a passport?

I've changed your argument from a covid vaccine to something else that you are asked to do to reduce the risk to your health and the health of others ....a seatbelt ... do you still agree ?

Can you please tell me the benefits of wearing a seatbelt then having already had a car crash ? Is there a measurable difference in protection provided? Or is it just a case of it shouldn't do any harm so wear a seat belt ?

[ElginHibbie]

That’s simply not the case.

Latest data: https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/8918/21-09-01-covid19-publication_report.pdf

Scroll to page 40.

Although I even take this with a pinch of salt due to the efficacy of the tests and the well known false positive figures..but admissions to hospital is the real bottom line for me.

All that shows that if those 153 were all vaccinated less of them would be in hospital, probably less than half of them in fact

Now some will have real medical reasons not to get a vaccine, but I’d guess most don’t and it’s their choices that are adding to the NHS strain unnecessarily

[Peevemor]

I'd be looking for a new GP.


Your GP should be sacked.

To be fair this isn't his public stance - my wife is pretty friendly with him (kids/school connections).

In saying that one of the things he's brought up in relation to the vaccines is the long term risk of prion diseases (CJD, Alzheimer's etc.). I thought that these claims had been shown as false but, according to him, apparently not. I'm sorry but I'm not qualified to argue medicine with a GP - especially in French.

[the tornadoe]

If NO-ONE is allowed in the stadium without a vaccine passport will that include players ?

[wookie70]

And if you look at that statistically it will be a much higher frequency as there are many times more vaccinated than unvaccinated.
For the numbers just now you would need to multiply the number of unvaccinated people in hospital by about 7 or 8 to have a meaningful comparison.

Too simplistic due to the age profiles of those in hospital and those who are vaccinated. Most higher proportion of vaccinated people are over 30 and they are more likely to be struck harder by covid, vaccinated or not.

For all I am arguing about the Passport I have no issue with saying the vaccine is effective and hope most will take it(they have in far larger numbers than ever anticipated). Barring the younger generations we probably have went beyond the herd immunity that was always planned.

This, for me, is about people being excluded from events and proof being required to enter. This isn't Facebook or Google collecting data this is our government excluding citizens from events on the basis of choices they have made. I get the argument that it is safer for vaccinated people to gather in groups and I get the fact that you can't make it black or white. There are more questions than answers for me in terms of where the line has been drawn and what the proof is behind large outdoor events being major spreaders. Schools and colleges should all be closed again if the Government are that bothered about numbers of cases. Make it mandatory for vaccinations rather than coercing if it is for the greater good.

It has been asked before in the thread but not sure it has been answered. Why would someone who is medically exempt be allowed into a game without being vaccinated while someone who simply chose not to be vaccinated is excluded. They both pose the same risk to others. In deed what is the criteria for exemption, is there one and how do you qualify, is it self-certification like many equalities issues are?

It will be a hard choice for me if the rule is brought in. I'm double vaxxed but I may decide to ask for a ST refund if I need to prove I am. The bit of paper doesn't make me less likely to infect anyone else. I see it as a slippery slope and Governments will see how easily they can withdraw freedoms looking at this thread they have won that battle already.

[CentreLine]

To be fair this isn't his public stance - my wife is pretty friendly with him (kids/school connections).

In saying that one of the things he's brought up in relation to the vaccines is the long term risk of prion diseases (CJD, Alzheimer's etc.). I thought that these claims had been shown as false but, according to him, apparently not. I'm sorry but I'm not qualified to argue medicine with a GP - especially in French.

Which brings us right back to heading the football 😏
At last a football subject on a football forum

[degenerated]

Too simplistic due to the age profiles of those in hospital and those who are vaccinated. Most higher proportion of vaccinated people are over 30 and they are more likely to be struck harder by covid, vaccinated or not.

For all I am arguing about the Passport I have no issue with saying the vaccine is effective and hope most will take it(they have in far larger numbers than ever anticipated). Barring the younger generations we probably have went beyond the herd immunity that was always planned.

This, for me, is about people being excluded from events and proof being required to enter. This isn't Facebook or Google collecting data this is our government excluding citizens from events on the basis of choices they have made. I get the argument that it is safer for vaccinated people to gather in groups and I get the fact that you can't make it black or white. There are more questions than answers for me in terms of where the line has been drawn and what the proof is behind large outdoor events being major spreaders. Schools and colleges should all be closed again if the Government are that bothered about numbers of cases. Make it mandatory for vaccinations rather than coercing if it is for the greater good.

It has been asked before in the thread but not sure it has been answered. Why would someone who is medically exempt be allowed into a game without being vaccinated while someone who simply chose not to be vaccinated is excluded. They both pose the same risk to others. In deed what is the criteria for exemption, is there one and how do you qualify, is it self-certification like many equalities issues are?

It will be a hard choice for me if the rule is brought in. I'm double vaxxed but I may decide to ask for a ST refund if I need to prove I am. The bit of paper doesn't make me less likely to infect anyone else. I see it as a slippery slope and Governments will see how easily they can withdraw freedoms looking at this thread they have won that battle already.My view would be that if medically exempt then proof of a negative test result should suffice.

[green day]

To be fair this isn't his public stance - my wife is pretty friendly with him (kids/school connections).

In saying that one of the things he's brought up in relation to the vaccines is the long term risk of prion diseases (CJD, Alzheimer's etc.). I thought that these claims had been shown as false but, according to him, apparently not. I'm sorry but I'm not qualified to argue medicine with a GP - especially in French.

He (and nobody) has data to support that stance - we are only 18 months into the development of these vaccines.

However, his stance is pretty consistent with anti vax pish spouted in France and elsewhere - make a claim that cant be refuted (as there is no evidence one way or the other) and then go "aha - so you cant say it wont happen".

Guy is clearly a fud.

[BlackSheep]

As has been said, companies are snooping on you all the time.

Use Google = data.

Facebook account = data

Shop online = data

Sainsburys Nectar card = data

Use your debit card = data

Pretty sure the nefarious data miners already know that you are a Hibernian Fan.

J

It baffles me how naive so many are about this.

I always point this out to folk who are worried about data collection.

1. If you have an iPhone… it’s listening to you, at all times… if you have an Alexa, same, Google home, ditto…. And how do we know this… cos they’re all waiting on a key phrase being spoken in order for them to ‘serve us’.

2. Google maps traffic data…. How do you think they can tell how busy the roads are? Simple, they’re collecting data from every WiFi/Cellular connected device and analysing that devices speed, direction, etc to determine if the device is in a vehicle… the uses the gps of the device and groups it with other Google activated devices to determine the traffic load.

You’d have to live completely off the grid these days not to be data tracked most of your day.

That said… what are most folk worried about… just what can the data they mine do to affect your life?

[Not In The Know]

Personally, I couldn't wait for the vaccines and took up the offer of them as soon as they were offered. However, I don't think folk should be forced into having them if they want to attend events etc. I would hope those who are unable to attend Easter Road would not seek a refund or stop putting their money into the club as its not Hibs fault that they can't attend.

People aren't being forced to get vaccines just like folk aren't forced to learn to drive. If you want to drive you need to get a licence so you can protect other road users and yourself.

Just like a vaccine passport really. No ones forcing people to go to large events.

[green day]

It baffles me how naive so many are about this.

I always point this out to folk who are worried about data collection.

1. If you have an iPhone… it’s listening to you, at all times… if you have an Alexa, same, Google home, ditto…. And how do we know this… cos they’re all waiting on a key phrase being spoken in order for them to ‘serve us’.

2. Google maps traffic data…. How do you think they can tell how busy the roads are? Simple, they’re collecting data from every WiFi/Cellular connected device and analysing that devices speed, direction, etc to determine if the device is in a vehicle… the uses the gps of the device and groups it with other Google activated devices to determine the traffic load.

You’d have to live completely off the grid these days not to be data tracked most of your day.

That said… what are most folk worried about… just what can the data they mine do to affect your life?

You are right - I use Android Auto to get around and it doesnt take a genius to work out that its ALL phone users whos GPS data is aggregated together to give the traffic flow / best route etc.

People complaining about "having to give up data" do it all the time, including to drive, travel, open a bank account etc etc

[CentreLine]

My view would be that if medically exempt then proof of a negative test result should suffice.

Maybe as well as but not instead of IMHO

[calumhibee1]

It baffles me how naive so many are about this.

I always point this out to folk who are worried about data collection.

1. If you have an iPhone… it’s listening to you, at all times… if you have an Alexa, same, Google home, ditto…. And how do we know this… cos they’re all waiting on a key phrase being spoken in order for them to ‘serve us’.

2. Google maps traffic data…. How do you think they can tell how busy the roads are? Simple, they’re collecting data from every WiFi/Cellular connected device and analysing that devices speed, direction, etc to determine if the device is in a vehicle… the uses the gps of the device and groups it with other Google activated devices to determine the traffic load.

You’d have to live completely off the grid these days not to be data tracked most of your day.

That said… what are most folk worried about… just what can the data they mine do to affect your life?

Yup.

I was talking about a restaurant the other day. I’ve never been, never looked on their website, never googled it. Just walked past and said it looked nice from outside.

5 minutes later there’s an advert for it on my phone.

For people that are worried about their data being gathered, you’re too late. You’re giving up data nearly every moment of your life on the presumption you live a fairly normal life.

[calumhibee1]

People aren't being forced to get vaccines just like folk aren't forced to learn to drive. If you want to drive you need to get a licence so you can protect other road users and yourself.

Just like a vaccine passport really. No ones forcing people to go to large events.

:agree:

Driving is a great freedom to have. You need to show you’re safe to do it though before you can do it.

This really isn’t all that different.

[mcohibs]

Yup.

I was talking about a restaurant the other day. I’ve never been, never looked on their website, never googled it. Just walked past and said it looked nice from outside.

5 minutes later there’s an advert for it on my phone.

For people that are worried about their data being gathered, you’re too late. You’re giving up data nearly every moment of your life on the presumption you live a fairly normal life.

Agree with your last paragraph but if you've been talking about a restaurant (not through a device) and it pops up as an ad on your phone then that is purely coincidence and the only reason you notice it is because of that.

The average person sees around 6,000 to 10,000 ads every day. There are bound to be times when you're talking about something then see an ad for it but it is pure luck, not someone listening in on your conversations.

[CentreLine]

Agree with your last paragraph but if you've been talking about a restaurant and it pops up as an ad on your phone then that is purely coincidence and the only reason you notice it is because of that.

The average person sees around 6,000 to 10,000 ads every day. There are bound to be times when you're talking about something then see an ad for it but it is pure luck, not someone listening in on your conversations.

Is it possible that, by passing the restaurant, something can bee picked up on your phone from the restaurant server?

[Casey1875]

I've changed your argument from a covid vaccine to something else that you are asked to do to reduce the risk to your health and the health of others ....a seatbelt ... do you still agree ?

Can you please tell me the benefits of wearing a seatbelt then having already had a car crash ? Is there a measurable difference in protection provided? Or is it just a case of it shouldn't do any harm so wear a seat belt ?

This makes absolutely zero sense and there is no correlation between the two scenarios.

[OstKurve Hibs]

Why dont we go to alternate home games, one week all the vaccinated can go, next game all us that use our right to chose to not get vaccinated can go, thatll work fine

[green day]

Is it possible that, by passing the restaurant, something can bee picked up on your phone from the restaurant server?

Restaurant may have signed up to advertise to those passing close by.

Your phone has GPS.

Bingo.

[green day]

Why dont we go to alternate home games, one week all the vaccinated can go, next game all us that use our right to chose to not get vaccinated can go, thatll work fine

Like a hunger games for the stupid?

[CentreLine]

Restaurant may have signed up to advertise to those passing close by.

Your phone has GPS.

Bingo.

Clever stuff this a witchcraft. 🤨

[calumhibee1]

Agree with your last paragraph but if you've been talking about a restaurant (not through a device) and it pops up as an ad on your phone then that is purely coincidence and the only reason you notice it is because of that.

The average person sees around 6,000 to 10,000 ads every day. There are bound to be times when you're talking about something then see an ad for it but it is pure luck, not someone listening in on your conversations.

I’ve read a few things which suggest otherwise. Things like people going to a Spanish restaurant with Spanish music playing and then their being a disproportionate amount of adverts for Spanish restaurants etc. Likewise with google search bars where if you’ve been talking out loud about something and you start typing it comes up VERY early in the suggestions.

For example if I say “do you want lasagne for tea?” And put an L into Google, one of the first suggestions will be for lasagne when there’s probably hundreds of more frequently searched items that start with an L etc.

[calumhibee1]

Why dont we go to alternate home games, one week all the vaccinated can go, next game all us that use our right to chose to not get vaccinated can go, thatll work fine

Na you can just stay at home and do nout.

[Sir David Gray]

If NO-ONE is allowed in the stadium without a vaccine passport will that include players ?

The answer is I don't know but I would doubt if unvaccinated players will be banned from playing.

I suspect it will only apply to spectators.

[Mon Dieu4]

Restaurant may have signed up to advertise to those passing close by.

Your phone has GPS.

Bingo.

Don't think what you are suggesting is is legal over here, you can do it in the US but sure the EU outlawed it, unless since Brexit we've changed it

[Northernhibee]

Why dont we go to alternate home games, one week all the vaccinated can go, next game all us that use our right to chose to not get vaccinated can go, thatll work fine

Or maybe some of us could get their info from experts rather than Sandra on Twitter, protect ourselves and others and take the ****ing vaccine or accept that we don’t get to endanger others if we don’t?

[Stairway 2 7]

Na you can just stay at home and do nout.

That's uncalled for, the new st James centre is meant to be good or go to Lochend Park and can also listen out for when we score

[calumhibee1]

That's uncalled for, the new st James centre is meant to be good or go to Lochend Park and can also listen out for when we score

Should vaccine passport the centre as well imo. :agree:

[ElginHibbie]

Why dont we go to alternate home games, one week all the vaccinated can go, next game all us that use our right to chose to not get vaccinated can go, thatll work fine

Sure the club would love to have stands less than a third full every other week

[Stairway 2 7]

Or maybe some of us could get their info from experts rather than Sandra on Twitter, protect ourselves and others and take the ****ing vaccine or accept that we don’t get to endanger others if we don’t?

Aye agree with the sentiment but not the name ha, it's always Sandra Maggie or Agnes on Facebook reading nonsense. But almost 100% of over 50s got vaccinated. The dafties that got unvaccinated were higher the younger you go, I'll be alright who cares if I spread it. Can we change the name of the example to Ellie or josh or something now 😆

[Stairway 2 7]

Should the club would love to have stands less than a third full every other week

Less than that passports are for over 18s and about 91% of over 18s will be fully vaxed when they bring it in. Its a surprisingly small group the antivax lot although by social media you would think its huge.

[Moulin Yarns]

Agree with your last paragraph but if you've been talking about a restaurant (not through a device) and it pops up as an ad on your phone then that is purely coincidence and the only reason you notice it is because of that.

The average person sees around 6,000 to 10,000 ads every day. There are bound to be times when you're talking about something then see an ad for it but it is pure luck, not someone listening in on your conversations.

I saw recently someone did an experiment where they recorded a conversation with a number of products and places mentioned, they then put a few mobile phones in a tent with a speaker that replayed the conversation over a period at night. When they returned no adverts for anything mentioned appeared on the phones.

Not sure what that proves.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why dont we go to alternate home games, one week all the vaccinated can go, next game all us that use our right to chose to not get vaccinated can go, thatll work fine

I nominate you for the Darwin award 😉

[007]

People aren't being forced to get vaccines just like folk aren't forced to learn to drive. If you want to drive you need to get a licence so you can protect other road users and yourself.

Just like a vaccine passport really. No ones forcing people to go to large events.

Exactly, they're welcome to go and support Livi.

[HibsGW]

This makes absolutely zero sense and there is no correlation between the two scenarios.

Logically it makes perfect sense. You’re being given 2 scenarios and an option to protect both yourself and others in both of them.

[mcohibs]

Like a hunger games for the stupid?

Genuinely laughed out loud at this 😂

[hhibs]

People aren't being forced to get vaccines just like folk aren't forced to learn to drive. If you want to drive you need to get a licence so you can protect other road users and yourself.

Just like a vaccine passport really. No ones forcing people to go to large events.


Well put,Sir.

[hibsbollah]

It's the big note fine and 3 points on the licence that's the coercion :greengrin

Or could it be a desire to not mow down the wean in her pushchair on the zebra crossing?

Always room for a morals and ethics debate :greengrin

[wookie70]

Like a hunger games for the stupid?

What group do the vaccinated but not wishing to carry a passport fall under, or willing to support fellow citizens right to choose or indeed be exempt on medical grounds. Are we stupid too. So many insults flying around and saying people are selfish when the topic is about 10k gathering in one place which is potentially a selfish and unnecessary act which is far from essential.

I wonder if any of those in favour of the change have went to a supermarket when online buying was possible, met a mate when they could have called etc. There are millions of events taking place every day that means the virus will spread. The government need to make tough choices but I'm surprise the line has been drawn here. Is there evidence that large outdoor events are more dangerous than attending Uni or College for instance. What would students views be on having to provide a passport to attend a lecture.

Should being double vaxxed not be a requirement for every contact in society where you have no choice who you sit next to

[SQHib]

This makes absolutely zero sense and there is no correlation between the two scenarios.

I would disagree - you asked what's the point of getting the vaccine if you have already had covid ? - the point is that you could get it again AND also put others at risk so you reduce the risk by taking the
vaccine .. or do you disagree that taking the vaccine reduces the risk of getting it again ?

[silverhibee]

Elite athletes got all these exemptions during lockdown Would be interesting to hear why so many haven’t been vaccinated
Role Models for younger people
It’s an interesting one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That will now have to change for footballers in SPFL, if they want to be in a stadium with more than 10’000 people they will now need to get vaccinated, can’t be one rule for the fans and another for the players and staff.

[Selkirkhibs]

People aren't being forced to get vaccines just like folk aren't forced to learn to drive. If you want to drive you need to get a licence so you can protect other road users and yourself.

Just like a vaccine passport really. No ones forcing people to go to large events.

A vaccine passport does not state that the holder does not have covid. It merely confirms the holder would have had the vaccine as I have.

A driving license states that the holder has passed the required driving test and is safe to drive a vehicle on the road.

Two entirely different scenarios.

[wookie70]

People aren't being forced to get vaccines just like folk aren't forced to learn to drive. If you want to drive you need to get a licence so you can protect other road users and yourself.
Just like a vaccine passport really. No ones forcing people to go to large events.


Do you have to carry your driving license in Scotland when you get in a car, news to me. I have been double vaxxed so comply with that but I don't want to carry medical details with me. You need to prove you have a licence if caught doing wrong. Just like wearing a mask it is done by trust between Govt and Citizen and then dealt with when the trust breaks down.

[mcohibs]

What group do the vaccinated but not wishing to carry a passport fall under, or willing to support fellow citizens right to choose or indeed be exempt on medical grounds. Are we stupid too. So many insults flying around and saying people are selfish when the topic is about 10k gathering in one place which is potentially a selfish and unnecessary act which is far from essential.

I wonder if any of those in favour of the change have went to a supermarket when online buying was possible, met a mate when they could have called etc. There are millions of events taking place every day that means the virus will spread. The government need to make tough choices but I'm surprise the line has been drawn here. Is there evidence that large outdoor events are more dangerous than attending Uni or College for instance. What would students views be on having to provide a passport to attend a lecture.

Should being double vaxxed not be a requirement for every contact in society where you have no choice who you sit next to

Why don't you want to carry a vaccine passport? If it is on the grounds of 'I don't want my data being tracked', then yes, quite frankly that is stupid.

If not, then I'd be genuinely interested to hear the reasons why.

[silverhibee]

The answer is I don't know but I would doubt if unvaccinated players will be banned from playing.

I suspect it will only apply to spectators.

How bizarre that fans will be asked to provide a passport to get in to a stadium to watch the majority of players who will be anti vaxxers, I just hope the folk who are saying people are being selfish for not getting vaccinated will be refusing to go to games to watch players who are refusing to get the jabs.

[silverhibee]

Na you can just stay at home and do nout.

What’s your stance on going to watch players who won’t be vaccinated ?

[CentreLine]

Do you have to carry your driving license in Scotland when you get in a car, news to me. I have been double vaxxed so comply with that but I don't want to carry medical details with me. You need to prove you have a licence if caught doing wrong. Just like wearing a mask it is done by trust between Govt and Citizen and then dealt with when the trust breaks down.

It is a legal requirement to carry your drivers licence, insurance certificate and test certificate (if relevant) with you in a vehicle. However, the law acknowledges that this is not always possible. As a result, the system where the police issue you with a form requiring you to produce these documents at an elected police station within seven days evolved. In actual fact all of these items can now be checked up on at the roadside by the police over computer records. Nonetheless, the legal requirement is still there and the police can stop any driver to require these documents, at any time, without any offence having been committed and without any other justification required to stop your vehicle.

[neil7908]

A vaccine passport does not state that the holder does not have covid. It merely confirms the holder would have had the vaccine as I have.

A driving license states that the holder has passed the required driving test and is safe to drive a vehicle on the road.

Two entirely different scenarios.

They have passed a test - that doesn't mean they are safe to drive. My grandad was still driving at 90 and believe me, there is no way he would have passed his test again if he'd had to sit it.

A vaccine passport however will show you have put yourself in the best position to ensure you do not spread covid to others.

[neil7908]

How bizarre that fans will be asked to provide a passport to get in to a stadium to watch the majority of players who will be anti vaxxers, I just hope the folk who are saying people are being selfish for not getting vaccinated will be refusing to go to games to watch players who are refusing to get the jabs.

The players won't be sitting next to me though. FWIW I think clubs should do more to push players but the issue is those in the ground infecting others - the players aren't going to be doing that so it doesn't really hold as an argument about restricting fan access.

[HibsGW]

The players won't be sitting next to me though. FWIW I think clubs should do more to push players but the issue is those in the ground infecting others - the players aren't going to be doing that so it doesn't really hold as an argument about restricting fan access.

Out of interest, where are people actually getting that the players are anti vaxxers from? Is there anywhere that actually shows this? I’ve seen photos of Newell, Gray, McGregor and Murphy getting their vaccines, I’m not expecting to see a photo of all of them or something like that?

[calumhibee1]

What’s your stance on going to watch players who won’t be vaccinated ?

Those same players aren’t in close enough contact with the 15000 there to watch them to cause a mass outbreak.

It’s not ideal, but it’s a totally different situation. To add to that, most of the players have had it from what I’ve heard.

[CentreLine]

How bizarre that fans will be asked to provide a passport to get in to a stadium to watch the majority of players who will be anti vaxxers, I just hope the folk who are saying people are being selfish for not getting vaccinated will be refusing to go to games to watch players who are refusing to get the jabs.

On what evidence can we suggests thy “the majority of players” or any players, for that matter, refuse to be vaccinated?
Whether they are or not is a matter for themselves and for that very reason it is impossible to suggest players, per se, are against vaccination.

The rules will decided whether or not they have to prove it in the future but not to you and me. The information will, correctly, stay confidential

[Selkirkhibs]

They have passed a test - that doesn't mean they are safe to drive. My grandad was still driving at 90 and believe me, there is no way he would have passed his test again if he'd had to sit it.

A vaccine passport however will show you have put yourself in the best position to ensure you do not spread covid to others.


Despite my having having had two jabs I believe I can still catch covid and pass it on to those without jabs and those with jabs. I think what the jabs do is put 'yourself' in the 'best position' of not falling severely ill or being hospitalised if catching it.

I've had the jabs but find it a bit nonsensical that I have to show a 'passport' to demonstrate to strangers that I have if I want to attend events despite my being able to pass it on similarly to folk who decided for their own personal reason that they don't want to be jabbed.

All imo of course.

[calumhibee1]

Despite my having having had two jabs I believe I can still catch covid and pass it on to those without jabs and those with jabs. I think what the jabs do is put 'yourself' in the 'best position' of not falling severely ill or being hospitalised if catching it.

I've had the jabs but find it a bit nonsensical that I have to show a 'passport' to demonstrate to strangers that I have if I want to attend events despite my being able to pass it on similarly to folk who decided for their own personal reason that they don't want to be jabbed.

All imo of course.

The vaccine passport is more about showing that you’re much less dangerous to the other 9999 people in the 10000 crowd. Not that you are safe personally.

It’s more about showing you’re doing your bit to protect others than yourself.

[andudare2]

Do you have to carry your driving license in Scotland when you get in a car, news to me. I have been double vaxxed so comply with that but I don't want to carry medical details with me. You need to prove you have a licence if caught doing wrong. Just like wearing a mask it is done by trust between Govt and Citizen and then dealt with when the trust breaks down.

There are quite a few medical conditions that you are better carrying details of,i have cards in wallet at all times in regards to taking warfarin, having Asthma and C.O.P.D,so given you say you dont want to carry medical records with you then i assume that you wouldn't carry those i mention either?

[MWHIBBIES]

A vaccine passport does not state that the holder does not have covid. It merely confirms the holder would have had the vaccine as I have.

A driving license states that the holder has passed the required driving test and is safe to drive a vehicle on the road.

Two entirely different scenarios.

Surely almost 100% of car accidents are caused by people with licences? It shows you've passed a test. Many people are still unsafe drivers.

[Selkirkhibs]

Surely almost 100% of car accidents are caused by people with licences? It shows you've passed a test. Many people are still unsafe drivers.

What has this got to do with vaccine passports?

[neil7908]

The vaccine passport is more about showing that you’re much less dangerous to the other 9999 people in the 10000 crowd. Not that you are safe personally.

It’s more about showing you’re doing your bit to protect others than yourself.

👍

This is what it keeps coming back to time and time again. Personal freedom versus responsibility to others. As I've said in an earlier post, your freedom ends the moment in infringes on someone else. And whilst we all know you can still pass on Covid whilst vaccinated, the chances are much lower.

[Selkirkhibs]

The vaccine passport is more about showing that you’re much less dangerous to the other 9999 people in the 10000 crowd. Not that you are safe personally.

It’s more about showing you’re doing your bit to protect others than yourself.

Reasonable opinion.

[MWHIBBIES]

What has this got to do with vaccine passports?

Read the post I've quoted.

[Moulin Yarns]

The one thing that confuses me is the group of people who, on medical grounds, are unable to get vaccinated. Are they not also likely to be the ones that are most at risk of catching covid? In which case are they also not be the same group of people least likely to want to be in a large crowd, like at a football match?

Same with the people who are claiming they can't wear masks, should they be going into crowded supermarkets? Surely they should get someone else to help them by doing the shopping.

I suppose what I'm saying is that people who genuinely can't get vaccinated are unlikely to be going to the football.

[wookie70]

It is a legal requirement to carry your drivers licence, insurance certificate and test certificate (if relevant) with you in a vehicle. However, the law acknowledges that this is not always possible. As a result, the system where the police issue you with a form requiring you to produce these documents at an elected police station within seven days evolved. In actual fact all of these items can now be checked up on at the roadside by the police over computer records. Nonetheless, the legal requirement is still there and the police can stop any driver to require these documents, at any time, without any offence having been committed and without any other justification required to stop your vehicle.


Learn something new every day. My understanding is that it is a recommendation not a requirement. Very different and gives the element of choice I want

[Selkirkhibs]

Read the post I've quoted.

What about it?

[Casey1875]

I would disagree - you asked what's the point of getting the vaccine if you have already had covid ? - the point is that you could get it again AND also put others at risk so you reduce the risk by taking the
vaccine .. or do you disagree that taking the vaccine reduces the risk of getting it again ?

Does having a seatbelt on possibly reduce the chance of getting into an accident? Is there a chance that having been in an accident without a seatbelt may provide you with the same safety net of a seatbelt the next time?

As I said earlier I'm doing the antibody trial just now if that shows a drop I might get it, if I'm showing as having them then I'm certainly less likely to get it.

[CentreLine]

Learn something new every day. My understanding is that it is a recommendation not a requirement. Very different and gives the element of choice I want

No. Written in to the Road Traffic Act and carries a penalty for non compliance. Every driver is aware of that when they sit their test but we all forget stuff. Common practice is not to carry these things in the car but it is a legal requirement.

[overdrive]

The one thing that confuses me is the group of people who, on medical grounds, are unable to get vaccinated. Are they not also likely to be the ones that are most at risk of catching covid? In which case are they also not be the same group of people least likely to want to be in a large crowd, like at a football match?

Same with the people who are claiming they can't wear masks, should they be going into crowded supermarkets? Surely they should get someone else to help them by doing the shopping.

I suppose what I'm saying is that people who genuinely can't get vaccinated are unlikely to be going to the football.

I agree about the mask wearing but I guess there will be people with allergies to ingredients within the vaccines that wouldn’t necessarily be at any more risk if they caught covid but would from the vaccine.

As harsh as it sounds, I wouldn't be giving such people an exemption from these rules as they are a risk to everyone else.

[007]

Do you have to carry your driving license in Scotland when you get in a car, news to me. I have been double vaxxed so comply with that but I don't want to carry medical details with me. You need to prove you have a licence if caught doing wrong. Just like wearing a mask it is done by trust between Govt and Citizen and then dealt with when the trust breaks down.

So you are okay with crowds over 10k having to be double vaccinated but you just don't want us to have to carry the evidence of it.

[wookie70]

Does having a seatbelt on possibly reduce the chance of getting into an accident? Is there a chance that having been in an accident without a seatbelt may provide you with the same safety net of a seatbelt the next time?

As I said earlier I'm doing the antibody trial just now if that shows a drop I might get it, if I'm showing as having them then I'm certainly less likely to get it.

It seems many are quite content to have the accident and hope the seatbelt saves them but seem unwilling to allow others who don't wear a seatbelt, can't wear a seatbelt or refuse to prove they have wore one to also take part for fear of making the accident more dangerous. They will all then presumably stop entering into contact with any other drivers for 10 days after the organised accident for fear of a mass pile up as they are not selfish of course and are all thinking about the wider societal implications. Meanwhile those under the age of being allowed to drive can walk out in front of all the cars as that is apparently not a problem as can those who can't wear a seatbelt for medical reasons.

The big question of course is, are the new rules about making people get vaccines or stopping the spread. I suspect a bit of both but the former is the driving force as you would simply stop attendance at the events if you were than bothered about the virus spreading.

[silverhibee]

On what evidence can we suggests thy “the majority of players” or any players, for that matter, refuse to be vaccinated?
Whether they are or not is a matter for themselves and for that very reason it is impossible to suggest players, per se, are against vaccination.

The rules will decided whether or not they have to prove it in the future but not to you and me. The information will, correctly, stay confidential

We had been hoping that this would have changed under the new restrictions but unfortunately not. With many players in Scotland still awaiting vaccination, or their second dose, the JRG have advised that Red Zones need to continue to exist until the football department are double dosed and a Test to Release programme is made live by Government.

That was posted by the fans rep about 10 days a go, what’s holding players back from getting vaccinated, they have had plenty time to get it, if they haven’t had by now then they have obviously decided not to get it, the best time would have been over the summer break to get it, a number of managers have also spoken out about in England that players are refusing to get vaccinated, can’t be one rule for us and another with players, we should all be in this together, I have said this before, Government’s have bent over backwards to let football go ahead during this pandemic, they should be leaning on Football Association’s to do more to help people to get vaccinated, good on Hibs showing us McGregor Murphy Gray getting it, may encourage more people to get it, but “Role Model” players could be doing more.

[the tornadoe]

On what evidence can we suggests thy “the majority of players” or any players, for that matter, refuse to be vaccinated?
Whether they are or not is a matter for themselves and for that very reason it is impossible to suggest players, per se, are against vaccination.

The rules will decided whether or not they have to prove it in the future but not to you and me. The information will, correctly, stay confidential


It won't be confidential for all those people in the stans .... if you are there then by default you have Had the vaccine. I have no problem with the rules in anyway BUT it should be applied to EVERYONE not just spectators.

[Casey1875]

It seems many are quite content to have the accident and hope the seatbelt saves them but seem unwilling to allow others who don't wear a seatbelt, can't wear a seatbelt or refuse to prove they have wore one to also take part for fear of making the accident more dangerous. They will all then presumably stop entering into contact with any other drivers for 10 days after the organised accident for fear of a mass pile up as they are not selfish of course and are all thinking about the wider societal implications. Meanwhile those under the age of being allowed to drive can walk out in front of all the cars as that is apparently not a problem as can those who can't wear a seatbelt for medical reasons.

The big question of course is, are the new rules about making people get vaccines or stopping the spread. I suspect a bit of both but the former is the driving force as you would simply stop attendance at the events if you were than bothered about the virus spreading.

I think personally that they are more about coercing people into having the vaccine. If it was purely about stopping the spread then we would not be allowing big crowds and the use of masks would still be a priority for everyone. Although they obviously are not mutually exclusive things if the vaccine reduces transmission rates.

[CentreLine]

We had been hoping that this would have changed under the new restrictions but unfortunately not. With many players in Scotland still awaiting vaccination, or their second dose, the JRG have advised that Red Zones need to continue to exist until the football department are double dosed and a Test to Release programme is made live by Government.

That was posted by the fans rep about 10 days a go, what’s holding players back from getting vaccinated, they have had plenty time to get it, if they haven’t had by now then they have obviously decided not to get it, the best time would have been over the summer break to get it, a number of managers have also spoken out about in England that players are refusing to get vaccinated, can’t be one rule for us and another with players, we should all be in this together, I have said this before, Government’s have bent over backwards to let football go ahead during this pandemic, they should be leaning on Football Association’s to do more to help people to get vaccinated, good on Hibs showing us McGregor Murphy Gray getting it, may encourage more people to get it, but “Role Model” players could be doing more.

Sorry, I realise you probably didn’t intend to exaggerate but it’s all a bit anecdotal and not one word of it justifies suggesting “the majority” of players are not vaccinated. In fact it even says “awaiting vaccination or their second dose” implying that players have had a first dose. Not really suggestive of some kind of player revolt over vaccines.
As for what’s happening in England? Who cares what the over rated players elsewhere are doing?

[CentreLine]

It won't be confidential for all those people in the stans .... if you are there then by default you have Had the vaccine. I have no problem with the rules in anyway BUT it should be applied to EVERYONE not just spectators.

Except for those who are exempt. People may judge but not with certainty.

[the tornadoe]

Except for those who are exempt. People may judge but not with certainty.

True... but I doubt that there are many players with an valid reason for exemption. There will be some but not many..

[wookie70]

So you are okay with crowds over 10k having to be double vaccinated but you just don't want us to have to carry the evidence of it.

No I think people should have choice. The passport is one element, the exclusion from society is another. I also don't like the vibe where those that have had a vaccination are seen as good citizens and those that haven't are seen as selfish. That is a government manipulating the population imo. We are back to having plague written on our doors or excluded from the city except in this case it isn't actually about having the virus it is about the vaccine. It also isn't about data for me although carrying evidence of your medical history to a football match seems ridiculous. Any restrictions on my free movement around the country I live in are to be opposed as far as I am concerned particularly when those are not applied equally to every citizen. My son had Covid a couple of weeks back and as I had been double vaxxed I was allowed back into society after a negative PCR. Did I need to show proof when I got the test, no. Did I need to show proof when I went to the game last week, no. It was done on trust that I had followed the guidelines which I had.

I also want a proper set of evidence and findings based on what if there were no fans, what if everyone was allowed and what if they restricted access to those who are double vaxxed. No need to ask for a set of figures to include those exempt on medical grounds or under 18 as they are clearly in the same field as those not double vaxxed. I want to know the differences in the three scenarios and if, as would seem obvious, having the 10k attend including the new rules would cause more cases than having no attendance why would that choice have been made but the line to be drawn exactly at 10K. It needs more explanation to me as I could head over to another event with 9999 attendees and not have to worry about a passport.

Like most of the rules around Covid it is knee jerk and not really well thought out and if citizens accept being governed with civil liberties being stripped after next to no consultation and seemingly without great thought then I suspect Governments will continue to do so long after Covid. The saddest thing is it looks like most would be quite content with that

[Tambo]

Just rebooked my second jab for the 11th of September which is a few weeks before my original appointment.

Will I have enough time for a passport? Not really clued up on all of this and can't wait any longer to get back to Easter Road.

[blackpoolhibs]

We had been hoping that this would have changed under the new restrictions but unfortunately not. With many players in Scotland still awaiting vaccination, or their second dose, the JRG have advised that Red Zones need to continue to exist until the football department are double dosed and a Test to Release programme is made live by Government.

That was posted by the fans rep about 10 days a go, what’s holding players back from getting vaccinated, they have had plenty time to get it, if they haven’t had by now then they have obviously decided not to get it, the best time would have been over the summer break to get it, a number of managers have also spoken out about in England that players are refusing to get vaccinated, can’t be one rule for us and another with players, we should all be in this together, I have said this before, Government’s have bent over backwards to let football go ahead during this pandemic, they should be leaning on Football Association’s to do more to help people to get vaccinated, good on Hibs showing us McGregor Murphy Gray getting it, may encourage more people to get it, but “Role Model” players could be doing more.

How many is many? :confused:

[Hibee Mac]

This is so misreprentitive of the data as to seem dishonest, and to end your post with glib bonhomie seems like deflection.

The data shown, particularly in Israel (since you've used that example) the vaccine is overwhelmingly effective in reducing hospitalisation and severe illness.

I've copied over a response to various anti vax talking points, particularly since you're so worried about the long term effects.

What does seem to reduce over time is immunity, particularly in the face of the delta variant. This suggests that a regime similar to the flu jag for the most at risk may be the way forward.


mRNA vaccines have been being studied for over a decade (including human trials).Current COVID vaccines have been extremely well studied, with sample sizes of hundreds of thousands of people, and studies have been compiled into large meta-analyses/systematic reviews. Thus, the short-term risks of the vaccines are extremely well-documented, and the benefits outweigh the risks.

The only “unknown” is about long-term effects; however no vaccine has ever caused the type of widespread, serious side effect years down the road that everyone is afraid of.Nearly all side effects occur shortly after vaccination .The only example of a sided effect that showed up months later appear within a year (whereas we’ve been using COVID vaccines for over a year) and was rare. The vaccine benefits still outweighed the risks.

Vaccines rarely cause long-term (future) side effects because they use low doses over a short time.Vaccines simply train your immune system.Vaccines are quickly removed from the body.Most vaccine components were well-studied, and their safety is known.

mRNA does not alter your DNA.

mRNA is very quickly broken down and removed.

mRNA in vaccines cannot make your body produce entire viruses.You are constantly exposed to mRNA from viruses (e.g., from colds)If you catch COVID, your cells will use viral mRNA to make proteins just like they do from the vaccine, but…Your cells will make entire viruses, not just a single protein.You will be exposed to far higher levels of mRNA.

Side effects from immune stimulation will usually happen right away and will usually be worse from actual infection with COVID.

A demand for long-term studies is meaningless unless you can justify why a particular length of time is needed.No matter how long something has been studied, it is always technically possible that an effect won’t show up until slightly after the length of that study.This is true for all medications, foods, minerals, vitamins, etc., yet we don’t fear most of them.Therefore, you must provide actual evidence or reasoning to think that a futre side-effect is actually likely.

Focusing on a highly-unlikely, unknown, hypothetical risk from the vaccine while downplaying the very real and serious risk from COVID is bad risk assessment.Fears over unknown long-term effects of the vaccines are baseless. The burden of proof is on anyone claiming that the vaccines are dangerous.DING DING DING - We have a winner.

Fantastic post, this entire issue can ultimately be boiled down to misinterpretation of risk.

[SRHibs]

Don't vaxxers and anti-vaxxers all get information from the internet?

Bit of a false equivalency, when "vaxxers" are getting their online information from 99% of global health officials, doctors, epidemiologists etc etc.

[wookie70]

Except for those who are exempt. People may judge but not with certainty.

Why if you are just as likely to pass the virus on can you be exempt. There is not even a shielding category anymore just those at Higher risk. I have looked but I cannot see what are exemptions for being vaccinated.

Regardless of the moral and other arguments and discussions there is also a practical side to this. How are stewards going to manage this, do they need to be double vaxxed too. What about Police and St John's staff and and the boy celebrating his 18th working in the pie stall. What if someone has been vaxxed in both England and Scotland. Should they be stopped using their ticket until the NHS Scotland up catches up or do we have stewards looking at two pieces of medical info on two apps. If I am exempt (again no idea what makes people exempt) what happens if I haven't got the paperwork yet. What about if I proudly show my certificate but it has my mates name on the ticket as he bought my ticket. There are hundreds of scenarios that make this very difficult to administer and we struggle with simple ticketing as it is.

I get the feeling someone in Government has said, I know how we can get more citizens vaccinated and then they have worked the numbers from there.

[CentreLine]

Why if you are just as likely to pass the virus on can you be exempt. There is not even a shielding category anymore just those at Higher risk. I have looked but I cannot see what are exemptions for being vaccinated.

Regardless of the moral and other arguments and discussions there is also a practical side to this. How are stewards going to manage this, do they need to be double vaxxed too. What about Police and St John's staff and and the boy celebrating his 18th working in the pie stall. What if someone has been vaxxed in both England and Scotland. Should they be stopped using their ticket until the NHS Scotland up catches up or do we have stewards looking at two pieces of medical info on two apps. If I am exempt (again no idea what makes people exempt) what happens if I haven't got the paperwork yet. What about if I proudly show my certificate but it has my mates name on the ticket as he bought my ticket. There are hundreds of scenarios that make this very difficult to administer and we struggle with simple ticketing as it is.

I get the feeling someone in Government has said, I know how we can get more citizens vaccinated and then they have worked the numbers from there.

Above my pay grade to answer that but it was clearly reported yesterday that some people with particular conditions would have to be exempt. We all await the definition of who those people might be.
Over 10,000 people died again yesterday through coronavirus. Maybe its time to ditch the spurious objections, get on board with the evidence and accept steps need to be taken to offset the devastation this virus is causing.

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2021/01/11/covid-19-vaccines-cant-alter-your-dna-heres-why/amp/

This is a great article on the misconceptions around mrna dna started by actual antivax loons

You had better send your link to the anti vax loons , a.k.a the World Health Organisation, because that’s where my quote comes from.

[Peevemor]

Why if you are just as likely to pass the virus on can you be exempt. There is not even a shielding category anymore just those at Higher risk. I have looked but I cannot see what are exemptions for being vaccinated.

Regardless of the moral and other arguments and discussions there is also a practical side to this. How are stewards going to manage this, do they need to be double vaxxed too. What about Police and St John's staff and and the boy celebrating his 18th working in the pie stall. What if someone has been vaxxed in both England and Scotland. Should they be stopped using their ticket until the NHS Scotland up catches up or do we have stewards looking at two pieces of medical info on two apps. If I am exempt (again no idea what makes people exempt) what happens if I haven't got the paperwork yet. What about if I proudly show my certificate but it has my mates name on the ticket as he bought my ticket. There are hundreds of scenarios that make this very difficult to administer and we struggle with simple ticketing as it is.

I get the feeling someone in Government has said, I know how we can get more citizens vaccinated and then they have worked the numbers from there.
For info, in France anyone who comes into contact with the public in places that require a Covid passport (eg. bars, restaurants, stadiums, etc.) must themselves have a Covid passport.

People currently employed who don't have one must be removed from public contact where possible, if not they are to be suspended without pay. They can't however be sacked.

[Bristolhibby]

despite my having having had two jabs i believe i can still catch covid and pass it on to those without jabs and those with jabs. I think what the jabs do is put 'yourself' in the 'best position' of not falling severely ill or being hospitalised if catching it.

I've had the jabs but find it a bit nonsensical that i have to show a 'passport' to demonstrate to strangers that i have if i want to attend events despite my being able to pass it on similarly to folk who decided for their own personal reason that they don't want to be jabbed.

All imo of course.

you wont catch it as easily, and if you do you will statistically not get it as bad!

J

[Bristolhibby]

Just rebooked my second jab for the 11th of September which is a few weeks before my original appointment.

Will I have enough time for a passport? Not really clued up on all of this and can't wait any longer to get back to Easter Road.

Two weeks later you’ll be clear to attend ER.

First game “back” Hibs v St Johnstone. (After all that, I have no idea when this law will come in.

J

[hibbyfraelibby]

It won't be confidential for all those people in the stans .... if you are there then by default you have Had the vaccine. I have no problem with the rules in anyway BUT it should be applied to EVERYONE not just spectators.

Using your logic then football will be brought to a stanstill again. Certainly ends the devate on whetger you are going to need a vaccine passport since there wont be any games to watch.

[Peevemor]

Despite my having having had two jabs I believe I can still catch covid and pass it on to those without jabs and those with jabs. I think what the jabs do is put 'yourself' in the 'best position' of not falling severely ill or being hospitalised if catching it.

I've had the jabs but find it a bit nonsensical that I have to show a 'passport' to demonstrate to strangers that I have if I want to attend events despite my being able to pass it on similarly to folk who decided for their own personal reason that they don't want to be jabbed.

All imo of course.In the event that the person sitting next to you has Covid, there's less chance that they'll transmit it to you. If everyone is vaccinated the risk is drastically reduced.

Also, if the authorities want to avoid having a large group of non vaccinated (or non negative tested) people in the same place, then the only way to check is for everyone to show their pass.

[Spike Mandela]

I’m double jabbed, I have the evidence. Getting the jab was no inconvenience, neither was getting the digital evidence and the paper copy.

[CentreLine]

I’m double jabbed, I have the evidence. Getting the jab was no inconvenience, neither was getting the digital evidence and the paper copy.

Will need to get the paperwork. Any idea how we go about that without having either of the vaccination invite letters? I believe there was some sort of identification number on there that we need. Any assistance from yourself or any other poster would be helpful

[jgl07]

The one thing that confuses me is the group of people who, on medical grounds, are unable to get vaccinated. Are they not also likely to be the ones that are most at risk of catching covid? In which case are they also not be the same group of people least likely to want to be in a large crowd, like at a football match?

Same with the people who are claiming they can't wear masks, should they be going into crowded supermarkets? Surely they should get someone else to help them by doing the shopping.

I suppose what I'm saying is that people who genuinely can't get vaccinated are unlikely to be going to the football.
So that's all the Under-18s ruled out?

[cabbageandribs1875]

How bizarre that fans will be asked to provide a passport to get in to a stadium to watch the majority of players who will be anti vaxxers, I just hope the folk who are saying people are being selfish for not getting vaccinated will be refusing to go to games to watch players who are refusing to get the jabs.


the fans won't be sitting next to the players on the pitch

[wookie70]

Also, if the authorities want to avoid having a large group of non vaccinated (or non negative tested) people in the same place, then the only way to check is for everyone to show their pass.

The only way - they could of course not allow the events as they have in the very recent past. That would be a far more effective way of reducing cases. Do they even know what are the main types of events and the numbers/proximity/venues etc that are causing this spike in cases. Is it events, general relaxion of the rules, hospitality or schools. Have they studied this to find out and fine tune what levers work best. I suspect there is evidence but have ministers even looked at it or have they went with the fitba fans and those that go to gigs are often young so we will coerce them into vaccination. Lets make up some numbers and stick it into statute.

Talk me through the practicalities of 18-20 thousand having their passports checked at ER or 40-50K in the Uglies grounds. Now have a wee think about how many scenarios there are going to be for stewards to deal with. If I was a steward I'd be looking for another gig somewhere if this goes through. It is a hard enough job with ridiculous rules on rucksacks and electronic tickets that seem to take the huff once or twice a season but at least you were dealing with the exceptions. Now every single person would need to show a vax passport, confirm that matches with ST or ticket details and then some form of photo ID. Otherwise it is so easy to circumvent it is hardly worth the bother.

As to the points made of players being double vaxxed that should extend to every person in connection with the game for it to make any sense - police, stewards, catering staff etc etc.

[Spike Mandela]

Will need to get the paperwork. Any idea how we go about that without having either of the vaccination invite letters? I believe there was some sort of identification number on there that we need. Any assistance from yourself or any other poster would be helpful

Scroll down to section about lost paperwork.👍

https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/after-your-vaccine/get-a-record-of-your-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-status

[The dalmeny]

If anything is needed suspect it won’t be put in place until after the rugby matches in November

[the tornadoe]

the fans won't be sitting next to the players on the pitch

No, but the subs will be sitting next to the fans in the stand !!

[The dalmeny]

6680937 (tel:6680937)[/URL]]It won't be confidential for all those people in the stans .... if you are there then by default you have Had the vaccine. I have no problem with the rules in anyway BUT it should be applied to EVERYONE not just spectators.

the players are working, spectators are not. Players don’t have a choice to do their work, spectators don’t need to attend.

[The dalmeny]

6681128 (tel:6681128)[/URL]]No, but the subs will be sitting next to the fans in the stand !!

Er, red zone? No

[Peevemor]

The only way - they could of course not allow the events as they have in the very recent past. That would be a far more effective way of reducing cases. Do they even know what are the main types of events and the numbers/proximity/venues etc that are causing this spike in cases. Is it events, general relaxion of the rules, hospitality or schools. Have they studied this to find out and fine tune what levers work best. I suspect there is evidence but have ministers even looked at it or have they went with the fitba fans and those that go to gigs are often young so we will coerce them into vaccination. Lets make up some numbers and stick it into statute.

Talk me through the practicalities of 18-20 thousand having their passports checked at ER or 40-50K in the Uglies grounds. Now have a wee think about how many scenarios there are going to be for stewards to deal with. If I was a steward I'd be looking for another gig somewhere if this goes through. It is a hard enough job with ridiculous rules on rucksacks and electronic tickets that seem to take the huff once or twice a season but at least you were dealing with the exceptions. Now every single person would need to show a vax passport, confirm that matches with ST or ticket details and then some form of photo ID. Otherwise it is so easy to circumvent it is hardly worth the bother.

As to the points made of players being double vaxxed that should extend to every person in connection with the game for it to make any sense - police, stewards, catering staff etc etc.Of course, having no public events is safer, but I'm pretty certain football fans (for example) would vote overwhelmingly for attending matches with the obligation to have a pass than going back to closed doors.

From what I've experienced here, the QR codes only take a second to scan (on any android or apple device) and this could easily be done in the queues for the turnstiles.

As for players being obliged to be vaccinated, for me that makes perfect sense, but nothing to do with contact with the public - simply doing their job every day while avoiding any risk to & from their colleagues should be reason enough.

As an aside, at the Lorient Festival a few weeks ago, Covid passports were required for the public but not the performers. However, once outside the venue, the performers had to stick to the same rules as everyone else.

[CentreLine]

Scroll down to section about lost paperwork.👍

https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/after-your-vaccine/get-a-record-of-your-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-status

Top man. Thank you for tolerating my laziness ☺️

[cabbageandribs1875]

No, but the subs will be sitting next to the fans in the stand !!


i thought they have a wee section to themselves :confused:

[Glory Lurker]

Just get vaccinated, eh?

[Stairway 2 7]

If anything is needed suspect it won’t be put in place until after the rugby matches in November

I think the uptake in the average rugby crowd will be huge. 91% of adults are vaccinated so will be able to have a huge crowd. Add in less vaccinated are heavily swung towards the younger groups, also wealth and ethnicity unfortunately.

[Stairway 2 7]

For info, in France anyone who comes into contact with the public in places that require a Covid passport (eg. bars, restaurants, stadiums, etc.) must themselves have a Covid passport.

People currently employed who don't have one must be removed from public contact where possible, if not they are to be suspended without pay. They can't however be sacked.

That's class but we'll never bring that in.

[wookie70]

Scroll down to section about lost paperwork.👍

https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/after-your-vaccine/get-a-record-of-your-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-status

I had a look at that and actually registered. I chucked by appointment letters so only managed to register as I knew the date I got vaccinated(only knew that because of Facebook) When you get to the point of requesting the certificate it says you should only do so if travelling in the next 14 days. I suspect that is due to the effort required to send them out. I can only imagine that will be another stumbling block when hundreds of thousands request certificates to attend gigs and sporting events.

[wookie70]

I think the uptake in the average rugby crowd will be huge. 91% of adults are vaccinated so will be able to have a huge crowd. Add in less vaccinated are heavily swung towards the younger groups, also wealth and ethnicity unfortunately.

I agree and that makes it even more of a pointless exercise when nearly everyone will be double vaxxed

[superfurryhibby]

That's class but we'll never bring that in.

Are you the Oracle or something:confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

I agree and that makes it even more of a pointless exercise when nearly everyone will be double vaxxed

Not nearly everyone though hundreds of thousands of under 50s won't. That's why it's been targeted to nightclubs football festivals ect. Want in get jagged, pretty simple

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you the Oracle or something:confused:

I would be stunned if snp went from hesitant to bringing them in to targeted places, all the way to people can't work

[Stairway 2 7]

Good we thread of why I don't want any of you unvaccinated in easter road

https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1429449468261322759

Alasdair Munro
@apsmunro
Did you hear vaccinated people with Delta “have just as much virus in their nose so are just as infectious as unvaccinated”?

Turns out vaccinated people have significantly less culturable virus present at the same Ct count

They are LESS INFECTIOUS Collision symbol

https://medrxiv.org/content/10.110

@apsmunro

Add to this the data that vaccinated people also clear the virus much faster Plus it at least halves your chance of getting infected in the first place Being vaccinated doesn’t mean you can’t transmit, but it’s your best bet at protecting the people around you

[wookie70]

Not nearly everyone though hundreds of thousands of under 50s won't. That's why it's been targeted to nightclubs football festivals ect. Want in get jagged, pretty simple
At a Scotland rugby game, I agree with the previous poster. The demographic of a Scotland game is older and wealthier with their kids and is very white. ie the groups most likely to have been double vaxxed.

Lots of those will spend hours in pubs and on public transport before and after the game. I don't think pubs required you to be double vaxxed and they will be steaming and not even remotely social distancing. I think there are no rules on social distancing in pubs but stand to be corrected. I wouldn't be selfish enough to go to a pub during a pandemic of course.

[wookie70]

Add to this the data that vaccinated people also clear the virus much faster Plus it at least halves your chance of getting infected in the first place Being vaccinated doesn’t mean you can’t transmit, but it’s your best bet at protecting the people around you

Having no people round you is the best bet

and if you have already had covid from teh same thread

Basically all our infections our delta, and we’ve found reinfections to have significantly higher Ct counts (so lower viral loads) than primary infections too

[Stairway 2 7]

Having no people round you is the best bet

and if you have already had covid from teh same thread

Basically all our infections our delta, and we’ve found reinfections to have significantly higher Ct counts (so lower viral loads) than primary infections too

Another study out today the science is undeniable. Those vaccinated are unbelievably less likely to get ill and more importantly spread this virus. Just get vaccinated you bafoons, it's not main stream media or the government spreading lies. 150,000 died in the UK 100,000 are already to be estimated to have been saved in the UK due to being vaccinated. People are losing there jobs left right and centre, help end this

https://mobile.twitter.com/PamelaPMartinez/status/1433464752387366917

5 out of 6 fully vaxed who had breakthrough infections remained viral culture negative throughout their enrollment period, suggesting minimal shedding of infectious virus and little to no transmission risk.

The total number of days that vaccinated individuals tested viral culture positive was significantly fewer than both newly vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, indicating that vaccination significantly reduces infectious virus shedding

[neil7908]

Another study out today the science is undeniable. Those vaccinated are unbelievably less likely to get ill and more importantly spread this virus. Just get vaccinated you bafoons, it's not main stream media or the government spreading lies. 150,000 died in the UK 100,000 are already to be estimated to have been saved in the UK due to being vaccinated. People are losing there jobs left right and centre, help end this

https://mobile.twitter.com/PamelaPMartinez/status/1433464752387366917

5 out of 6 fully vaxed who had breakthrough infections remained viral culture negative throughout their enrollment period, suggesting minimal shedding of infectious virus and little to no transmission risk.

The total number of days that vaccinated individuals tested viral culture positive was significantly fewer than both newly vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, indicating that vaccination significantly reduces infectious virus shedding

I'm afraid it doesn't matter at this stage how much data you have Stairway - minds are made up imo. Which is exactly why we need vaccine passports. The Govt have appealed to the country's sense of duty to help the vulnerable and themselves, and the vast majority have got on board.

There are still a sizable chunk who have ignored this, and gone down their own path. I'm not convinced any amount of information and data will make a difference anymore. We need to grudgingly respect their decision, but ensure we reduce their ability to harm others. By preventing them attending large scale events.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm afraid it doesn't matter at this stage how much data you have Stairway - minds are made up imo. Which is exactly why we need vaccine passports. The Govt have appealed to the country's sense of duty to help the vulnerable and themselves, and the vast majority have got on board.

There are still a sizable chunk who have ignored this, and gone down their own path. I'm not convinced any amount of information and data will make a difference anymore. We need to grudgingly respect their decision, but ensure we reduce their ability to harm others. By preventing them attending large scale events.

Yeah actually probably spot on. We don't want anyone to miss a game but needs must and hopefully none of this will be needed soon enough

[Mr Grieves]

I had a look at that and actually registered. I chucked by appointment letters so only managed to register as I knew the date I got vaccinated(only knew that because of Facebook) When you get to the point of requesting the certificate it says you should only do so if travelling in the next 14 days. I suspect that is due to the effort required to send them out. I can only imagine that will be another stumbling block when hundreds of thousands request certificates to attend gigs and sporting events.

As of now you can download the certificate so they don't need to be sent out

[neil7908]

Yeah actually probably spot on. We don't want anyone to miss a game but needs must and hopefully none of this will be needed soon enough

Fingers crossed. I would love nothing more than this to be a distant memory in a years time, and laugh that we ever talked about vaccines on .net. Sadly I don't that will be the case.

[wookie70]

Another study out today the science is undeniable. Those vaccinated are unbelievably less likely to get ill and more importantly spread this virus. Just get vaccinated you bafoons, it's not main stream media or the government spreading lies. 150,000 died in the UK 100,000 are already to be estimated to have been saved in the UK due to being vaccinated. People are losing there jobs left right and centre, help end this

https://mobile.twitter.com/PamelaPMartinez/status/1433464752387366917

5 out of 6 fully vaxed who had breakthrough infections remained viral culture negative throughout their enrollment period, suggesting minimal shedding of infectious virus and little to no transmission risk.

The total number of days that vaccinated individuals tested viral culture positive was significantly fewer than both newly vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, indicating that vaccination significantly reduces infectious virus shedding


As said in the post under the OP, that data is not for the Delta variant which is the one the UK mostly and almost exclusively has. Check out how many were actually involved and also that it isn't peer reviewed.

I’m sure it’s been said by others - it’s important to point out that this is not Delta. We are seeing remarkable transmission among fully vaccinated groups. I believe we will find higher transmissibility of Delta in Vax’d than Alpha in unvax’d.

[wookie70]

As of now you can download the certificate so they don't need to be sent out

Not that I could see. It says something about a change coming tomorrow regarding PDFs for over 15s but are we sure a digital copy would be accepted anyway. So easy to knock those up, saying that it will be easy enough to circumvent a paper copy too.

[Sir David Gray]

Not that I could see. It says something about a change coming tomorrow regarding PDFs for over 15s but are we sure a digital copy would be accepted anyway. So easy to knock those up, saying that it will be easy enough to circumvent a paper copy too.

It's available to download now via your online portal - I've just done it.

https://vacs.nhs.scot/csp?id=csm_login

[One Day Soon]

Just get vaccinated, eh?

What he said.

[wookie70]

It's available to download now via your online portal - I've just done it.

https://vacs.nhs.scot/csp?id=csm_login

So it is. Strange it says tomorrow on the blurb but that is maybe referring to something else. I'm not keen on too much private info on my phone so I will request a paper copy if I decide to attend given my views. I hope they allow enough time between implementation for posted certificates to arrive. Not everyone takes mobiles to the fitba

[Stairway 2 7]

As said in the post under the OP, that data is not for the Delta variant which is the one the UK mostly and almost exclusively has.

I’m sure it’s been said by others - it’s important to point out that this is not Delta. We are seeing remarkable transmission among fully vaccinated groups. I believe we will find higher transmissibility of Delta in Vax’d than Alpha in unvax’d.

https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1429449468261322759

There isn't much difference with delta vaccine still has same protection against severe infection high 90s. More can catch it than delta but still around 60% protection against that and the ones that have been infected have low viral load. Vaccines are amazing get it down you

[superfurryhibby]

I'm afraid it doesn't matter at this stage how much data you have Stairway - minds are made up imo. Which is exactly why we need vaccine passports. The Govt have appealed to the country's sense of duty to help the vulnerable and themselves, and the vast majority have got on board.

There are still a sizable chunk who have ignored this, and gone down their own path. I'm not convinced any amount of information and data will make a difference anymore. We need to grudgingly respect their decision, but ensure we reduce their ability to harm others. By preventing them attending large scale events.

Vaccinated people can be sceptical too, amazing as that might seem to those who want to polarise every discussion about the ethics of vaccine coercion.

[wookie70]

https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1429449468261322759

There isn't much difference with delta vaccine still has same protection against severe infection high 90s. More can catch it than delta but still around 60% protection against that and the ones that have been infected have low viral load. Vaccines are amazing get it down you

I already am double vaxxed.

That study is far from conclusive. Have you read the notes, quite a small study anyways and anomalies such as different variants for those tested. These notes stuck out for me - "further studies are needed to assess whether the decreased137 infectious virus shedding in breakthrough infections also lowers the chance of virus transmission." and "To study the effect of vaccination on infectivity, it would be preferable to compare infections occurring in121 vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals during the same time period, to minimize the impact of different122 SARS-CoV-2 variants. Due to the high vaccine coverage in HCW, we diagnosed very few infections in123 unvaccinated HCWs. "

Not exactly the type of info I would say is conclusive, the author certainly doesn't think so and even if he does manage to make firm conclusions there will be another variant along to change the scores on the doors.

[hibbysam]

Isn’t the rate in England far lower than it is in Scotland? Only difference being schools being back up here. Do they release the stats on how many of our cases are school children?

Now I’m delighted my kids are at school but that’s surely the biggest factor rather than who has or hasn’t been vaccinated and got a certificate. Maybe too simple.

[Stairway 2 7]

Isn’t the rate in England far lower than it is in Scotland? Only difference being schools being back up here. Do they release the stats on how many of our cases are school children?

Now I’m delighted my kids are at school but that’s surely the biggest factor rather than who has or hasn’t been vaccinated and got a certificate. Maybe too simple.

Probably as cases started to rise exponentially before schools went back, also the growth has slowed right down so hopefully we'll be at the peak of this wave in the next week or so

[calumhibee1]

I'm afraid it doesn't matter at this stage how much data you have Stairway - minds are made up imo. Which is exactly why we need vaccine passports. The Govt have appealed to the country's sense of duty to help the vulnerable and themselves, and the vast majority have got on board.

There are still a sizable chunk who have ignored this, and gone down their own path. I'm not convinced any amount of information and data will make a difference anymore. We need to grudgingly respect their decision, but ensure we reduce their ability to harm others. By preventing them attending large scale events.

Before vaccine passports I’d have agreed and I’d probably still agree now as I don’t think the current plan for vaccine passports goes far enough.

If the vaccine passports start to apply to bars, restaurants etc though then I’d suspect we’ll see a lot of people’s objections to the vaccine disappear into thin air and they’ll go and get it.

I’d hazard a guess a lot of folks objections to getting the vaccine aren’t as strong as their want for going out for dinner or a pint.

[CentreLine]

Before vaccine passports I’d have agreed and I’d probably still agree now as I don’t think the current plan for vaccine passports goes far enough.

If the vaccine passports start to apply to bars, restaurants etc though then I’d suspect we’ll see a lot of people’s objections to the vaccine disappear into thin air and they’ll go and get it.

I’d hazard a guess a lot of folks objections to getting the vaccine aren’t as strong as their want for going out for dinner or a pint.

Agreed. There are a lot of people thinking deeply about this and being caught up in crazy misinformation.
But there are also a great number of attention seekers objecting for the sake of getting a reaction.

[Moulin Yarns]

So that's all the Under-18s ruled out?

No!!!!


https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/invitations-and-appointments/who-will-be-offered-the-coronavirus-vaccine

[Stairway 2 7]

Before vaccine passports I’d have agreed and I’d probably still agree now as I don’t think the current plan for vaccine passports goes far enough.

If the vaccine passports start to apply to bars, restaurants etc though then I’d suspect we’ll see a lot of people’s objections to the vaccine disappear into thin air and they’ll go and get it.

I’d hazard a guess a lot of folks objections to getting the vaccine aren’t as strong as their want for going out for dinner or a pint.

Defo would. France vaccine figures went through the roof, when it was announced you wouldn't be even able to go inside a cafe.

[Peevemor]

Defo would. France vaccine figures went through the roof, when it was announced you wouldn't be even able to go inside a cafe.You can't even sit outside a café unless you have one.

[Stairway 2 7]

You can't even sit outside a café unless you have one.

Didn't realise that jeez.

[Sir David Gray]

Before vaccine passports I’d have agreed and I’d probably still agree now as I don’t think the current plan for vaccine passports goes far enough.

If the vaccine passports start to apply to bars, restaurants etc though then I’d suspect we’ll see a lot of people’s objections to the vaccine disappear into thin air and they’ll go and get it.

I’d hazard a guess a lot of folks objections to getting the vaccine aren’t as strong as their want for going out for dinner or a pint.

:agree:

[the tornadoe]

Er, red zone? No

Our red zone at ER is not 2 meters from the fans.. I know I sit next to it ..

[wookie70]

No. Written in to the Road Traffic Act and carries a penalty for non compliance. Every driver is aware of that when they sit their test but we all forget stuff. Common practice is not to carry these things in the car but it is a legal requirement.

Just saw this and you are wrong. It is an offence to not produce a license when asked(subsection 6) but as long as you produce it in within 7 days subsection six does not apply. In other words it is not an offence to not carry a licence and that will be the reason I can't ever remember hearing or reading it in the Highway Code etc. The discussion has now moved on but I like bottoming out the facts. Perhaps that will be deemed to be attention seeking by you of course.


(7)Subsection (6) above does not apply where a person required on any occasion under the preceding provisions of this section to produce a licence F2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-c6f9c1ad51b977c8a4695b764ea09a3e)...—

(a)produces on that occasion a current receipt for the licence F2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-c6f9c1ad51b977c8a4695b764ea09a3e)... issued under section 56 of the M1 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-c13996741)Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and, if required to do so, produces the licence F2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-c6f9c1ad51b977c8a4695b764ea09a3e)... in person immediately on [F29 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-4390aeaf30cd6f1596b886fd2e0a1e20)its] return at a police station that was specified on that occasion, or



(b)within seven days after that occasion produces such a receipt in person at a police station that was specified by him on that occasion and, if required to do so, produces the licence F2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-c6f9c1ad51b977c8a4695b764ea09a3e)... in person immediately on [F29 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-4390aeaf30cd6f1596b886fd2e0a1e20)its] return at that police station.

[hibbysam]

Probably as cases started to rise exponentially before schools went back, also the growth has slowed right down so hopefully we'll be at the peak of this wave in the next week or so

Did they? We had a peak late June/early July that was down to the football, then the latest rise started second week of august which coincides when the schools went back.

[CentreLine]

Just saw this and you are wrong. It is an offence to not produce a license when asked(subsection 6) but as long as you produce it in within 7 days subsection six does not apply. In other words it is not an offence to not carry a licence and that will be the reason I can't ever remember hearing or reading it in the Highway Code etc. The discussion has now moved on but I like bottoming out the facts. Perhaps that will be deemed to be attention seeking by you of course.


(7)Subsection (6) above does not apply where a person required on any occasion under the preceding provisions of this section to produce a licence F2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-c6f9c1ad51b977c8a4695b764ea09a3e)...—

(a)produces on that occasion a current receipt for the licence F2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-c6f9c1ad51b977c8a4695b764ea09a3e)... issued under section 56 of the M1 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-c13996741)Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and, if required to do so, produces the licence F2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-c6f9c1ad51b977c8a4695b764ea09a3e)... in person immediately on [F29 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-4390aeaf30cd6f1596b886fd2e0a1e20)its] return at a police station that was specified on that occasion, or



(b)within seven days after that occasion produces such a receipt in person at a police station that was specified by him on that occasion and, if required to do so, produces the licence F2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-c6f9c1ad51b977c8a4695b764ea09a3e)... in person immediately on [F29 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164#commentary-key-4390aeaf30cd6f1596b886fd2e0a1e20)its] return at that police station.




No I am correct. As you also say, It is an offence not to produce your licence, insurance certificates or test certificate, when it is demanded by a police officer in uniform at the time of being stopped. If the driver fails to produce any of these documents then the offence is complete.
However, as I said previously, it is accepted that it is not always practicable for a driver to comply with the law that requires that they carry their licence, insurance certificate and test certificate (if relevant) therefore the system of the formal requirement to produce some or all of these documents at a nominated police station was introduced in the Road Traffic Act, 1972 and subsequent Acts followed suit.
If the driver fails to comply within that seven days grace period then they are charged with the original offence of failing to produce their documents at the time of being stopped and that is the offence they answer to the court for.

Over 10,000 covid deaths worldwide again today. Utterly awful. Don’t you agree it’s time for people to stop making excuses for people not complying with government attempts to mitigate this pandemic tragedy?

[Stairway 2 7]

Did they? We had a peak late June/early July that was down to the football, then the latest rise started second week of august which coincides when the schools went back.

Yeah cases had already had a big jump by the 18th when most kids in Scotland went back. Then if the caught it on the earliest 18th, it would take another 4-5 days on average for symptoms and if tested result would be in the next days numbers.

25033

[hibbysam]

Yeah cases had already had a big jump by the 18th when most kids in Scotland went back. Then if the caught it on the earliest 18th, it would take another 4-5 days on average for symptoms and if tested result would be in the next days numbers.

25033

That line looks fairly flat to me until the 18th. The only two major differences I can see from England to ourselves is we are still wearing masks, and our kids are back at school. Now we are told masks keep us safe, so it’s not that. It leaves me thinking it can only be the schools.

91% uptake on first dose of vaccine is the figures I can see in over 18s, is that correct? 9 in 10 is outstanding and certainly isn’t something I’d be concerned about.

Just read - last week 33,000 off school with Covid related reasons, ie testing positive or isolating.

[basehibby]

This is a disaster - Sturgeon must go :fuming:

[wookie70]

No I am correct. As you also say, It is an offence not to produce your licence, insurance certificates or test certificate, when it is demanded by a police officer in uniform at the time of being stopped. If the driver fails to produce any of these documents then the offence is complete.
However, as I said previously, it is accepted that it is not always practicable for a driver to comply with the law that requires that they carry their licence, insurance certificate and test certificate (if relevant) therefore the system of the formal requirement to produce some or all of these documents at a nominated police station was introduced in the Road Traffic Act, 1972 and subsequent Acts followed suit.
If the driver fails to comply within that seven days grace period then they are charged with the original offence of failing to produce their documents at the time of being stopped and that is the offence they answer to the court for.

Over 10,000 covid deaths worldwide again today. Utterly awful. Don’t you agree it’s time for people to stop making excuses for people not complying with government attempts to mitigate this pandemic tragedy? Does not apply must mean, does apply then.

The numbers killed in the pandemic is a tragedy for sure, not convinced the government are trying to mitigate deaths and illnesses by allowing 10k people to gather. The UK governments have done a dreadful job of mitigating death and suffering from the start despite an incredibly compliant response from the public. As far as I am aware the government haven't decided to do this yet. It is an act they do not seem very comfortable with, for good reason.

[Stairway 2 7]

That line looks fairly flat to me until the 18th. The only two major differences I can see from England to ourselves is we are still wearing masks, and our kids are back at school. Now we are told masks keep us safe, so it’s not that. It leaves me thinking it can only be the schools.

91% uptake on first dose of vaccine is the figures I can see in over 18s, is that correct? 9 in 10 is outstanding and certainly isn’t something I’d be concerned about.

Just read - last week 33,000 off school with Covid related reasons, ie testing positive or isolating.

Yes but that 18th is tests done on the 17 of people who roughly caught it on the 12th. The earliest a kid could catch it at school for most kids was the 18th so that wouldn't be on the chart until the 24th generally.

[green day]

Got my QR code this morning, took about 10 seconds.

[bigwheel]

Got my QR code this morning, took about 10 seconds.

Is that the one that comes with the vaccination status letter…or is there an electronic version ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[green day]

Is that the one that comes with the vaccination status letter…or is there an electronic version ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

If you go on the website showing your vaccination status, as well as a button to request a paper copy, there is - from this morning - a button to download the QR version to your phone. :aok:

[bigwheel]

If you go on the website showing your vaccination status, as well as a button to request a paper copy, there is - from this morning - a button to download the QR version to your phone. :aok:

Cheers [emoji106][emoji106]

[nonshinyfinish]

You had better send your link to the anti vax loons , a.k.a the World Health Organisation, because that’s where my quote comes from.

There's nothing in your quote from the WHO (I assume you're referring to this post: https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=6680466#post6680466) that says an mRNA vaccine can alter your DNA. That's not how mRNA functions.

[flash]

That's mine downloaded. Couldn't be easier.
Now I can go to watch the Hibs knowing those most likely to give me this horrible infection won't be there.
Having had my jabs I am far less likely to get seriously ill too but I have an 85 year old mum who can do without a dose of coronavirus.

[Keith_M]

This is a disaster - Sturgeon must go :fuming:


Lock her up!

[bigwheel]

If you go on the website showing your vaccination status, as well as a button to request a paper copy, there is - from this morning - a button to download the QR version to your phone. :aok:

Can I just check one more thing ..I can download the vaccine status letter which has two barcodes in it ..is there anything else you Are downloading ??

[CentreLine]

Does not apply must mean, does apply then.

The numbers killed in the pandemic is a tragedy for sure, not convinced the government are trying to mitigate deaths and illnesses by allowing 10k people to gather. The UK governments have done a dreadful job of mitigating death and suffering from the start despite an incredibly compliant response from the public. As far as I am aware the government haven't decided to do this yet. It is an act they do not seem very comfortable with, for good reason.

On your first comment, clearly you are someone who chooses to misinterpret to suit your own agenda. The law is clear.

I agree on much of your take on government failure. The spin doctors are doing a great job getting people to look away from the horrendous body count and bigging up the success of vaccine rollout. The reality is that the UK has only recently slipped from fifth to eighth in the world for numbers of fatalities. That’s not an improvement by the way, just other countries getting worse. An utterly horrendous record when most of the countries with larger death rates have significantly larger populations and lack our health facilities and infrastructure. Mexico, Peru, Brazil, India, Indonesia and then we have Russia and USA.
This is the discussion we should be having, in my opinion. It’s about the unimaginable waste of human life, not looking for loopholes and finding spurious and ridiculous excuses for people not following simple guidelines.

[flash]

Can I just check one more thing ..I can download the vaccine status letter which has two barcodes in it ..is there anything else you Are downloading ??

That's all you need.

[Gordy M]

On your first comment, clearly you are someone who chooses to misinterpret to suit your own agenda. The law is clear.

I agree on much of your take on government failure. The spin doctors are doing a great job getting people to look away from the horrendous body count and bigging up the success of vaccine rollout. The reality is that the UK has only recently slipped from fifth to eighth in the world for numbers of fatalities. That’s not an improvement by the way, just other countries getting worse. An utterly horrendous record when most of the countries with larger death rates have significantly larger populations and lack our health facilities and infrastructure. Mexico, Peru, Brazil, India, Indonesia and then we have Russia and USA.
This is the discussion we should be having, in my opinion. It’s about the unimaginable waste of human life, not looking for loopholes and finding spurious and ridiculous excuses for people not following simple guidelines.

Whilst the deaths here have been truely horrific and im sure an enquiry will take place, im not sure that the way some contries are recording/reporting deaths will be comparable to the UK. Id imagine there has been a lot of under reporting in some areas of the world.....

[superfurryhibby]

There's nothing in your quote from the WHO (I assume you're referring to this post: https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=6680466#post6680466) that says an mRNA vaccine can alter your DNA. That's not how mRNA functions.

That wasn't what I was saying, read again.

[nonshinyfinish]

That wasn't what I was saying, read again.

Then why did you refer back to that quote in response to an article that is specifically about the misconception of mRNA vaccine altering your DNA?

[CentreLine]

Whilst the deaths here have been truely horrific and im sure an enquiry will take place, im not sure that the way some contries are recording/reporting deaths will be comparable to the UK. Id imagine there has been a lot of under reporting in some areas of the world.....

Definitely agree with you there. Sadly that only makes the worldwide situation worse. Unfortunately it doesn’t make the UK response better. We will never know what the true consequences of this pandemic have been and will continue to be.
Here in the supposed “developed world” we are even convincing ourselves that the pandemic is over. We are so conceited in our superior view of our position in the world, it really does beggar belief. We are living in a pandemic. Pandemic is, by definition, a real and continuing threat to every single person on the planet. You, me, our parents and grandparents, for those lucky enough to still have them. Our children, grandchildren and, for some, great grandchildren. Right here where we live, not in some dark corner of the world.
Yet some people don’t want to take the small steps and mitigations only available to us because we do live in a privileged part of the world.
It’s way past time people stopped making excuses and got on with showing a responsible and respectful response to this threat.

Get a vaccine. Wear a mask. Give others space. And look after personal hygiene for ourselves and those around us.

[Zambernardi1875]

Whilst the deaths here have been truely horrific and im sure an enquiry will take place, im not sure that the way some contries are recording/reporting deaths will be comparable to the UK. Id imagine there has been a lot of under reporting in some areas of the world.....

What’s the stats in the uk for deaths purely Covid no underlying health conditions and the age groups of these people?

[CentreLine]

What’s the stats in the uk for deaths purely Covid no underlying health conditions and the age groups of these people?

Get a life!

[bigwheel]

That's all you need.

[emoji106][emoji106]

[Zambernardi1875]

Get a life!

Are you ok?

[GloryGlory]

Got my QR code this morning, took about 10 seconds.

How do you get that? I've been to my vax status page online just now and the only options are to download a PDF or request a paper copy.

I've downloaded and printed the PDF, but wouldn't mind getting a copy on my phone too, as back-up.

Thanks for any help.

[superfurryhibby]

What’s the stats in the uk for deaths purely Covid no underlying health conditions and the age groups of these people?

Just use google. There doesn't seem to be easily accessible UK wide figures, but there is lots about England and Wales from the ONS.

"More than three times as many deaths were recorded between January and August this year where COVID-19 was the underlying cause compared to influenza and pneumonia."

Interesting to read the pneumonia killed a third as many people as Covid.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsduetocoronaviruscovid19comparedwithdeathsfro minfluenzaandpneumoniaenglandandwales/deathsoccurringbetween1januaryand31august2020

[superfurryhibby]

Then why did you refer back to that quote in response to an article that is specifically about the misconception of mRNA vaccine altering your DNA?

You didn't bother to read. I was responding to a poster who claimed there was a long history of well established research in this area of study. W.H. O didn't agree with him.

[nonshinyfinish]

You didn't bother to read. I was responding to a poster who claimed there was a long history of well established research in this area of study. W.H. O didn't agree with him.

Are you sure you read the page you linked to? The 'recently' that you highlighted was written in 2007. You can see that the technical report at the bottom of the page is dated 2007.

[EdinburghHibern]

Get a life!

Its a fair question tbh.

[Moulin Yarns]

How do you get that? I've been to my vax status page online just now and the only options are to download a PDF or request a paper copy.

I've downloaded and printed the PDF, but wouldn't mind getting a copy on my phone too, as back-up.

Thanks for any help.

I downloaded it to my phone then created a shortcut to it on my home screen.

[green day]

How do you get that? I've been to my vax status page online just now and the only options are to download a PDF or request a paper copy.

I've downloaded and printed the PDF, but wouldn't mind getting a copy on my phone too, as back-up.

Thanks for any help.


When you download it has a QR code on it, so, when I am at ER or anywhere and asked for my vax status, I can just pull up the file and it is all there.

Its basically just the same as the paper one but downloadable for ease of transport etc.

eta - and as Moulin Yarns mentions, if this becomes something you need frequently (e.g. if you do a lot of intnl travel), you can place it on your home screen or wherever.

[bod]

When you download it has a QR code on it, so, when I am at ER or anywhere and asked for my vax status, I can just pull up the file and it is all there.

Its basically just the same as the paper one but downloadable for ease of transport etc.

eta - and as Moulin Yarns mentions, if this becomes something you need frequently (e.g. if you do a lot of intnl travel), you can place it on your home screen or wherever.

Very easy to download then screenshot for handy ness

[CentreLine]

Its a fair question tbh.

It’s a deflection question that is utterly disrespectful to the over 4.5 MILLION PEOPLE who have died through covid across the world. Clearly ignores how Covid-19 works and attacks the vulnerable organs. There is no question, an attack on the human body like that will activate any underlying condition but it is the presence of COVID-19 that has made that fatal at that point.
I find it abhorrent that people choose to make flippant, deflective, comments rather than acknowledge the severity of this pandemic.

Now maybe they need that as a denial style defence system of their own but best to keep it to themselves.

As for me, I feel I have made a fair contribution to this thread and it’s time I left it.

[Stairway 2 7]

What’s the stats in the uk for deaths purely Covid no underlying health conditions and the age groups of these people?

The best way to know how many deaths were due to covid is looking at the nations excess deaths, deaths above the 5 year average. The uk had about 160,000 more deaths during the first 3 peaks. That was with major lockdowns and only a third of the nation at most catching it. You would expect if we let it run wild around 450,000 deaths. Also the NHS would have collapsed so perhaps higher

[superfurryhibby]

Are you sure you read the page you linked to? The 'recently' that you highlighted was written in 2007. You can see that the technical report at the bottom of the page is dated 2007.

The "technical report" you refer to is actually guidance issued by W.H.O. That is from 2007 and that isn't the point.

https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/biologicals/vaccine-quality/guidelines-for-assuring-the-quality-and-non-clinical-safety-evaluation-of-dna-vaccines70ee1b3e-88a6-40af-8989-fbff8304a377.pdf?sfvrsn=521ee591_1&download=true

The article I quoted from is on the W.H.O website now.

I did that in response to a poster who claimed that DNA and RNA vaccine use was well established, with a 30 year history of research and application.

https://changingtimes.media/2021/02/08/covid-19-as-millions-are-vaccinated-adverse-effects-and-virus-variants-cause-concern/?fbclid=IwAR2-zJXsYpJwCmHKApnI68Ym9YauJ9u7evCivKMNnHMUy4ZhqSfEHR _aSBY


"There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use.

There are concerns that there will, with spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, be pathogenic priming, also known as disease enhancement.

During studies of spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-1, the exposure of vaccinated animals to the virus led to increased morbidity and mortality.

There is also worry about mix-and-match experiments and potential problems when people are given one dose of one vaccine and a booster of a different one".

[nonshinyfinish]

The "technical report" you refer to is actually guidance issued by W.H.O. That is from 2007 and that isn't the point.

https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/biologicals/vaccine-quality/guidelines-for-assuring-the-quality-and-non-clinical-safety-evaluation-of-dna-vaccines70ee1b3e-88a6-40af-8989-fbff8304a377.pdf?sfvrsn=521ee591_1&download=true

The article I quoted from is on the W.H.O website now.

I did that in response to a poster who claimed that DNA and RNA vaccine use was well established, with a 30 year history of research and application.

The poster said 'studied for 30 years', you've invented the bit about application.

I don't know if 30 years is exactly right, but the WHO technical report refers to starting in the early 1990s.

[GloryGlory]

When you download it has a QR code on it, so, when I am at ER or anywhere and asked for my vax status, I can just pull up the file and it is all there.

Its basically just the same as the paper one but downloadable for ease of transport etc.

eta - and as Moulin Yarns mentions, if this becomes something you need frequently (e.g. if you do a lot of intnl travel), you can place it on your home screen or wherever.

I've tried that but the QR reader on my phone doesn't recognise it.

[Stairway 2 7]

The "technical report" you refer to is actually guidance issued by W.H.O. That is from 2007 and that isn't the point.

https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/biologicals/vaccine-quality/guidelines-for-assuring-the-quality-and-non-clinical-safety-evaluation-of-dna-vaccines70ee1b3e-88a6-40af-8989-fbff8304a377.pdf?sfvrsn=521ee591_1&download=true

The article I quoted from is on the W.H.O website now.

I did that in response to a poster who claimed that DNA and RNA vaccine use was well established, with a 30 year history of research and application.

https://changingtimes.media/2021/02/08/covid-19-as-millions-are-vaccinated-adverse-effects-and-virus-variants-cause-concern/?fbclid=IwAR2-zJXsYpJwCmHKApnI68Ym9YauJ9u7evCivKMNnHMUy4ZhqSfEHR _aSBY


"There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use.

There are concerns that there will, with spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, be pathogenic priming, also known as disease enhancement.

During studies of spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-1, the exposure of vaccinated animals to the virus led to increased morbidity and mortality.

There is also worry about mix-and-match experiments and potential problems when people are given one dose of one vaccine and a booster of a different one".

Changing times media is some source 😆 here's one from the university of alabama. Mrnas journey and research started over 30 years ago actually with the brilliant Katalin Kariks studies. It was originally going to be used against hiv, and might still be as their is an exciting trial going on now. It also getting trialled in use against cancer, dementia and the flu so fingers crossed

https://www.uab.edu/news/youcanuse/item/12059-covid-19-mrna-vaccines-how-could-anything-developed-this-quickly-be-safe

Here's a thread you should from probably uks best immunologists. He shows how all the side effects from a vaccine come soon after getting it, they usually stop looking after 6 months. Hundreds of thousands of people in trials have had the vaccine for over a year and billions now had it in total. Its unbelievably safe and effective

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrew_croxford/status/1416414041329786881

[Moulin Yarns]

I've tried that but the QR reader on my phone doesn't recognise it.

Go onto the NHS website on your phone, download the PDF to your phone. Go to where you download files and open it. You will see the QR codes at the bottom. You don't need to be able to read the QR code yourself.

[wookie70]

On your first comment, clearly you are someone who chooses to misinterpret to suit your own agenda. The law is clear.

I agree on much of your take on government failure. The spin doctors are doing a great job getting people to look away from the horrendous body count and bigging up the success of vaccine rollout. The reality is that the UK has only recently slipped from fifth to eighth in the world for numbers of fatalities. That’s not an improvement by the way, just other countries getting worse. An utterly horrendous record when most of the countries with larger death rates have significantly larger populations and lack our health facilities and infrastructure. Mexico, Peru, Brazil, India, Indonesia and then we have Russia and USA.
This is the discussion we should be having, in my opinion. It’s about the unimaginable waste of human life, not looking for loopholes and finding spurious and ridiculous excuses for people not following simple guidelines.


On your first point I am certainly not doing that. I am commenting on how I read it. I also read it a few times but that is by the bye.

On the rest of your post I completely agree although my view is that having a 10K crowd is surely risking lives in the first place regardless of vaccination status. I get it is a balance but what I want to see is the figures being considered. Say a 9999 crowd fully vaccinated including workers led to 300 infections on average and having an 10k crowd based on typical demographics, against typical vaccination rates led to 400 cases. My question would be why is everyone so desperate to say 300 is ok but 400 isn't especially when there are real civil liberty implications and potential equality issues. I need that level of detail and our government has been very poor justifying the many contradictory decision they have made. Ultimately, as you rightly say, this has meant we are one of the worst performing nations despite a fantastic health service, an island location and a two month warning before it kicked off.

[GloryGlory]

Go onto the NHS website on your phone, download the PDF to your phone. Go to where you download files and open it. You will see the QR codes at the bottom. You don't need to be able to read the QR code yourself.

That's too technical for me. How do I find a dowloaded file on my phone?

[superfurryhibby]

The poster said 'studied for 30 years', you've invented the bit about application.

I don't know if 30 years is exactly right, but the WHO technical report refers to starting in the early 1990s.

The poster I responded to actually said

"You really need to change the media you read because that is bat **** crazy. Changing dna 😆 rna has been studied for 30 years and it's great it works so well, there is now a hiv vaccine that uses rna that has a lot of hope."

I think they are confusing anti viral therapy with vaccination. There is no HIV vaccine, although there has been a lot of related research and development in attempting to develop one.

The article I quoted said

"There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use"

"The WHO says many aspects of the immune responses caused by DNA vaccines are not yet fully understood. But that has "not impeded significant progress towards the use of this type of vaccine in humans," it says"

From a pro -vaccine article published here in JUly 2020 https://www.dw.com/en/whats-the-science-on-dna-and-rna-vaccines/a-54097063


When will we see gene-based vaccines for COVID-19?

Some DNA vaccines have been approved for veterinary use. And there are many others in clinical trials for human use, including those for SARS-CoV-2.

Many will use what's called an "adaptive clinical trial design" to speed up the process from discovery to development to trial and approval to production.

Charo says adaptive trials are a less "static" approach than conventional ones. They allow researchers to respond to data and adapt as they go along, whereas you would normally take every step in sequence, and over time.

But in a live pandemic, time is at a premium. An adaptive trial design makes it effectively possible to approve a vaccine before all the testing is complete.

"There would be a requirement to do follow-up research to confirm early indications, known as surrogate markers" says Charo, "and if that research fails to confirm those indications, then the drug or vaccine can be withdrawn."

"In any case, you're only likely to see the full effects of a vaccine once it's out in the community. As Doherty puts it, "it's all one enormous experiment. People are trying to be safe, but even a partially effective vaccine might be useful. We'll have to see how that's evaluated by the regulatory bodies and the people making the vaccines."
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[Stairway 2 7]

On your first point I am certainly not doing that. I am commenting on how I read it. I also read it a few times but that is by the bye.

On the rest of your post I completely agree although my view is that having a 10K crowd is surely risking lives in the first place regardless of vaccination status. I get it is a balance but what I want to see is the figures being considered. Say a 9999 crowd fully vaccinated including workers led to 300 infections on average and having an 10k crowd based on typical demographics, against typical vaccination rates led to 400 cases. My question would be why is everyone so desperate to say 300 is ok but 400 isn't especially when there are real civil liberty implications and potential equality issues. I need that level of detail and our government has been very poor justifying the many contradictory decision they have made. Ultimately, as you rightly say, this has meant we are one of the worst performing nations despite a fantastic health service, an island location and a two month warning before it kicked off.

Being fully vaccinated brings the chance of death down to flu. So full stadiums are as much a risk as they were 2 years ago. For the unvaccinated they are obviously more risky. I think people are now not happy to stop the world for people not bothering to get vaccinated