Jack Ross out

[calumhibee1]

So if I understand correctly, every Hibs manager should aim to win the SC, but if he doesn't then he's a failure and should be sacked?

Every Hibs manager should be aiming to win a cup when you’re the favourite. Especially when you even get a second chance at it.

Where did I say he should be sacked? :confused:

[WhileTheChief..]

I get exactly what you’re saying, stick with it!!!

[Zambernardi1875]

The Rangers were favourites to win both cups, but failed.

It seems their fans think league placings are quite important. :wink:

When do hibs release the “we came 3rd” T-shirt’s

[Hibiza]

Why did Nisbet come on to the pitch , scowling and seeming to be arguing like a spoilt brat ?

[superfurryhibby]

Ross out......

[degenerated]

Why does hearts’ absence have a bearing on it? They were relegated last season for being pish, are e to assume that somehow they’re going to be top four? Nonsense.extending that logic then because Hibs only finished 3rd because everyone else is so bad and hearts are a lower league team then St Johnstone didn't actually win the cup for exactly the same reasons, no? :dunno:

[Peevemor]

Every Hibs manager should be aiming to win a cup when you’re the favourite. Especially when you even get a second chance at it.

Where did I say he should be sacked? :confused:You called him a failure.

[matty_f]

extending that logic then because Hibs only finished 3rd because everyone else is so bad and hearts are a lower league team then St Johnstone didn't actually win the cup for exactly the same reasons, no? :dunno:

Something like that :greengrin

[calumhibee1]

You called him a failure.

I said he failed to meet his targets, I never called him a failure.

I also never said he should be sacked as you’ve claimed. In fact I’ve specifically said he shouldn’t be previously.You’re really just making things up now.

I hope Jack Ross isn’t as precious over criticism of himself as you seem to be. If Ron Gordon has the audacity to criticise him for his role in saturdays debacle he’ll be running out his office telling everyone Ron wants to sack him.

[greenpaper55]

Forget 3rd place and cup targets, the bottom line is do you want to see Saturdays type of performance next season ? That is what you are going to get for sure, why will it be any different as he couldn't sort his tactics out again to combat St Johnston so you will get teams pressing us high up the pitch and reverting to hoofball. Remember the game against the Hearts at ER ? I rest my case.

[Fergus52]

When do hibs release the “we came 3rd” T-shirt’s

we did in 04/05

[Hibiza]

Has Jack Ross been a failure ? Yes the recent Hampden performances speak volumes.

[Peevemor]

I said he failed to meet his targets, I never called him a failure.

I also never said he should be sacked as you’ve claimed. In fact I’ve specifically said he shouldn’t be previously.You’re really just making things up now.

I hope Jack Ross isn’t as precious over criticism of himself as you seem to be. If Ron Gordon has the audacity to criticise him for his role in saturdays debacle he’ll be running out his office telling everyone Ron wants to sack him.Criticising him for failing to met his own high targets is ridiculous.

Maybe you never said he should be sacked, but you've posted thousands of words to tell us all how mediocre he is.

I'm not precious at all and I'm not setting out to defend Jack Ross, I just think that nearly all the criticism is based on a small number of criteria and that the bigger picture is being ignored out of sheer bloody mindedness.

[flash]

Ross out......

with the wife for a spot of dinner.

What do I win?

[One Day Soon]

Forget 3rd place and cup targets, the bottom line is do you want to see Saturdays type of performance next season ? That is what you are going to get for sure, why will it be any different as he couldn't sort his tactics out again to combat St Johnston so you will get teams pressing us high up the pitch and reverting to hoofball. Remember the game against the Hearts at ER ? I rest my case.


I am concerned that you are resting my case also as far as next season is concerned. Except worse probably because I am very dubious we will get third place again.

[Potty78]

Not in the Jack Ross out camp but his decision not to change his formation really irks me. Saints beat us three times in a row before sat yet he goes with the same tactics as before. We needed something fresh as Davidson knew exactly what our team selection was gonna be and worked on it all week. We need more pace in our team.

[calumhibee1]

Criticising him for failing to met his own high targets is ridiculous.

Maybe you never said he should be sacked, but you've posted thousands of words to tell us all how mediocre he is.

I'm not precious at all and I'm not setting out to defend Jack Ross, I just think that nearly all the criticism is based on a small number of criteria and that the bigger picture is being ignored out of sheer bloody mindedness.

Not when you’ve set those targets after blowing an opportunity to meet it once and being given a golden opportunity to do it again.

The criticism is based on his awful performances at Hampden. I don’t think anyone is denying that. Most folk are quite happy to accept that he has done well in the league.

[superfurryhibby]

with the wife for a spot of dinner.

What do I win?

A runners up medal.

[Hibiza]

Hearts disaster semi final - " we will learn from this " . St Johnstone semi final - " we will learn from this " . St Johnstone final ( no show ) - "we will learn from this " . Yawn !!!

[flash]

A runners up medal.

Story of my life.

[May21/05/216]

We have finished 3rd in the league runner up in the Scottish Cup final and lose in the league Cup semi final and people are wanting him punted so the next manager has a easy task
To please the fans at least Ron will look at Ross and his record since taking over heckingbottom at the wheel


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[Since452]

Ross will be signing a new contract shortly. Ron Gordon said as much in a recent interview. He's here for a while and I'm very happy about that.

[bingo70]

Ross will be signing a new contract shortly. Ron Gordon said as much in a recent interview. He's here for a while and I'm very happy about that.

Yeah I heard that too.

Doesn’t mean he’ll be here for the duration of the contract though, just means he’ll get a pay rise.

[madhatter]

Yeah I heard that too.

Doesn’t mean he’ll be here for the duration of the contract though, just means he’ll get a pay rise.

If he's done a good job in Ron Gordon's eyes and he feels a longer contract/pay rise is in order then fair enough.

Do worry that due to abysmal underachievement in years gone by that a single year of decent success may be getting too much credit.

Happy for Jack Ross to stay but we need a much stronger squad next season. This season's squad had approximately 10 players who played very little part. That's before you look at 20-23 year olds in the development squad that really should have broken into 1st team involvement/contention by now.

[Northern Hibby]

Would definitely give him another season.

[Ozyhibby]

Jack Ross has the best record as Hibs manager we have seen in the last 20 years. It would be very stupid to get rid of him.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Jack Ross has the best record as Hibs manager we have seen in the last 20 years. It would be very stupid to get rid of him.


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:agree:

That's basically it for me. Yes, Saturday was abysmal, and yes, the two semi-final defeats were awful, but we reached those ties and finished third in the league. That isn't half bad, when you look at Hibs history. We've been in far worse places and can improve again. Our current situation is far from bad.

[alihibs1]

IMO, we’ll never win anything under Jack Ross. He struggled in big games at Sunderland and the same pattern is following at Hibs, despite having plenty opportunities to change that tune.

Saturday was unforgivable for me. 6 times we’ve played St Johnstone this season. 6 attempts to find a way to play and beat a side full of Hibs rejects and a club with a budget 10x smaller than ours. It was embarrassing how easy it was for them. I was ashamed to be a Hibs fan on Saturday when we resorted to diving in the 88th minute while 1-0 down in a cup final.

Throughout the course of the season we’ve been abysmal when going 1-0 down. Think we’ve only come from 1-0 down once to win. We go in at half time playing ***** and come out playing even worse.

Yes finishing 3rd is an achievement but when put into perspective how bad would we have had to have been to not. A poor Celtic, a terrible Aberdeen who scored 2 goals in 12 games and a league without Hearts. Furthermore, we were backed massively last summer and in January, far more than any team outside the old firm.

2-1 vs a terrible championship Hearts side
3-0 vs St Johnstone
1-0 vs St Johnstone

Three opportunities to get to a cup final or win a cup without playing the Old Firm and we were shambolic in all 3.

We complain about being too soft. Jack Ross is not the man to change that.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

IMO, we’ll never win anything under Jack Ross. He struggled in big games at Sunderland and the same pattern is following at Hibs, despite having plenty opportunities to change that tune.

Saturday was unforgivable for me. 6 times we’ve played St Johnstone this season. 6 attempts to find a way to play and beat a side full of Hibs rejects and a club with a budget 10x smaller than ours. It was embarrassing how easy it was for them. I was ashamed to be a Hibs fan on Saturday when we resorted to diving in the 88th minute while 1-0 down in a cup final.

Throughout the course of the season we’ve been abysmal when going 1-0 down. Think we’ve only come from 1-0 down once to win. We go in at half time playing ***** and come out playing even worse.

Yes finishing 3rd is an achievement but when put into perspective how bad would we have had to have been to not. A poor Celtic, a terrible Aberdeen who scored 2 goals in 12 games and a league without Hearts. Furthermore, we were backed massively last summer and in January, far more than any team outside the old firm.

2-1 vs a terrible championship Hearts side
3-0 vs St Johnstone
1-0 vs St Johnstone

Three opportunities to get to a cup final or win a cup without playing the Old Firm and we were shambolic in all 3.

We complain about being too soft. Jack Ross is not the man to change that.


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Would you sack him now?

[ScottB]

It’s all relative. Folk seemed to understand Aberdeen binning their manager despite years of finishing third (or higher) in the league. I can recall threads on here pointing out the league has been weak, various clubs including us weren’t in it etc etc.

Yes, we finished third. Great. We’ve got easily the fourth highest budget in the league, and Aberdeen went something ludicrous like a month or two without even scoring a goal. 3rd is passing marks, 4th would have been a scrapped pass, any lower would have been a sackable offence in my book.

Yes, we got to the latter stages of 2 cups, or 3, technically, this season. Very well done for that.

So yeah, if you look at the cold stats of it; 3rd, a final and 2 semis, you say job well done. But then you look at a league with no Hearts and Aberdeen and Celtic in a mess, and maybe it’s not as impressive.

The big one though is the quality of performance in those cup games. If we’d put in a good fight, or happened to get beaten by the Old Firm, so be it. Meekly surrendering to St ******* Johnstone twice, and losing to a Hearts side that had barely kicked a ball in months? Nope.

All things considered? He’s unremarkable, he’s safe, but unspectacular. His interviews, especially after the game, show a man who seems to lack passion, lacks the ability to inspire or motivate; we’ll learn from this, very proud, good effort. You don’t say that after fluffing a cup final. Seems to have rubbed off on the players, who seemed similarly non plussed. Stubbs looked more motivated from the pundit box.

He won’t get sacked, he may even get an extension, but in the end he’s a McInnes. Nothing spectacular, nothing exciting, will reliably get a decent average of points but will continue to have a terrible record when it comes to the crunch on the days that actually matter to us most; you want a guy to get points away at Hamilton? He’s a good bet. You want a guy to inspire a cup final performance or really stick it to Hearts in the derbies? It ain’t him.

[gorgie greens]

Not in the Jack Ross out camp but his decision not to change his formation really irks me. Saints beat us three times in a row before sat yet he goes with the same tactics as before. We needed something fresh as Davidson knew exactly what our team selection was gonna be and worked on it all week. We need more pace in our team.

Agree with most of your post but we need a manager that has a plan B ,

[Centre Hawf]

There's fairness in both sides of the camp. We had the best opportunities to win a trophy in years and failed to take advantage of all 3. However Jack Ross has taken us from the Heckingbottom dire straits to Hampden in every cup competition he's managed so far and deserves credit for that. But I think anyone who supports Jack Ross should also understand the fear and frustration from fans at whether he has it in him to see it over the line when you consider his record at Sunderland was similar.

He deserves next season. But there must also be improvements in areas of concern such as the style in which we play at times, I'm not asking for him to emulate Pep Guardiola but not making me feel like I'm watching Derek McInness' Aberdeen most weeks would be an improvement.

Also as much as it feels unfair to ever say to a Hibs manager they HAVE to win a trophy, I feel if we're presented with similar opportunities in the cups next season he absolutely HAS to take it and deliver one. Naturally though that would be taken within the context at that time.

It's an important summer ahead for him to shape the squad further in what he wants, it's probably going to give us the best indication of how he wants to play next season.

[flash]

It’s all relative. Folk seemed to understand Aberdeen binning their manager despite years of finishing third (or higher) in the league. I can recall threads on here pointing out the league has been weak, various clubs including us weren’t in it etc etc.

Yes, we finished third. Great. We’ve got easily the fourth highest budget in the league, and Aberdeen went something ludicrous like a month or two without even scoring a goal. 3rd is passing marks, 4th would have been a scrapped pass, any lower would have been a sackable offence in my book.

Yes, we got to the latter stages of 2 cups, or 3, technically, this season. Very well done for that.

So yeah, if you look at the cold stats of it; 3rd, a final and 2 semis, you say job well done. But then you look at a league with no Hearts and Aberdeen and Celtic in a mess, and maybe it’s not as impressive.

The big one though is the quality of performance in those cup games. If we’d put in a good fight, or happened to get beaten by the Old Firm, so be it. Meekly surrendering to St ******* Johnstone twice, and losing to a Hearts side that had barely kicked a ball in months? Nope.

All things considered? He’s unremarkable, he’s safe, but unspectacular. His interviews, especially after the game, show a man who seems to lack passion, lacks the ability to inspire or motivate; we’ll learn from this, very proud, good effort. You don’t say that after fluffing a cup final. Seems to have rubbed off on the players, who seemed similarly non plussed. Stubbs looked more motivated from the pundit box.

He won’t get sacked, he may even get an extension, but in the end he’s a McInnes. Nothing spectacular, nothing exciting, will reliably get a decent average of points but will continue to have a terrible record when it comes to the crunch on the days that actually matter to us most; you want a guy to get points away at Hamilton? He’s a good bet. You want a guy to inspire a cup final performance or really stick it to Hearts in the derbies? It ain’t him.

Ludicrous comparison to McInnes. He was trying for years to win trophies. Our manager has made at least semi final in every one he has entered.
We are all confused and annoyed about Saturday but surely not to the point where he hasn't earned a fair bit of positive money in the bank too.

[calumhibee1]

Ludicrous comparison to McInnes. He was trying for years to win trophies. Our manager has made at least semi final in every one he has entered.
We are all confused and annoyed about Saturday but surely not to the point where he hasn't earned a fair bit of positive money in the bank too.

McInnes did win something to be fair.

I don’t think it’s that bad a comparison. Infact at this point it’s probably a flattering comparison for Ross. McInnes done a good job up there.

[scuttle]

Hearts disaster semi final - " we will learn from this " . St Johnstone semi final - " we will learn from this " . St Johnstone final ( no show ) - "we will learn from this " . Yawn !!!

Who was it that once said " insanity is making the same mistakes over and over and expecting different results "

[Stuart93]

Ludicrous comparison to McInnes. He was trying for years to win trophies. Our manager has made at least semi final in every one he has entered.
We are all confused and annoyed about Saturday but surely not to the point where he hasn't earned a fair bit of positive money in the bank too.

Making a semi final isn’t winning a cup though? Aberdeen were probably semi finalists/finalists a decent number of times under McInnes as well

Not sure I’d go as far as to compare him to McInnes like for like but I can see where the posters coming from

[HH81]

Jack Ross has the best record as Hibs manager we have seen in the last 20 years. It would be very stupid to get rid of him.


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Winning a cup is better than finishing 3rd.

I was annoyed Sarturday but listening to Ross post match interview made me even more angry. Load of crap he was talking. Plus Boyle laughing and joking on the pitch at the end didn't help.

Ross needs a good start next season or he won't end it.

[Ozyhibby]

If Jack Ross does as well as McInnes then I’ll be delighted. And he’s made a right good start.


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[paddy1875]

Ludicrous comparison to McInnes. He was trying for years to win trophies. Our manager has made at least semi final in every one he has entered.
We are all confused and annoyed about Saturday but surely not to the point where he hasn't earned a fair bit of positive money in the bank too.

Getting to semi finals isn’t winning trophies.

The league cup and Scottish cup this year didn’t have a Celtic or rangers after the quarter finals. Yet jack ross has bottled them.

The style we have adopted under him is painful to watch the majority of the time. Great job getting 3rd place tho.


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[The Modfather]

Would you sack him now?

I wouldn’t sack him, but I’d love someone to come in for him. Thank him for the good work he’s done, the progress he’s made, and the excellent foundations he’d be leaving. I’d like someone else in to take us on on a slightly different direction, mainly style wise, but who would also buy into the set up and recruitment in the same way Ross has.

Ultimately, I don’t think I’ll ever particularly enjoy Ross’ slightly passive, functional non possession counter attacking style, despite the proof in the pudding of 3rd showing it is effective.

[blackpoolhibs]

I wouldn’t sack him, but I’d love someone to come in for him. Thank him for the good work he’s done, the progress he’s made, and the excellent foundations he’d be leaving. I’d like someone else in to take us on on a slightly different direction, mainly style wise, but who would also buy into the set up and recruitment in the same way Ross has.

Ultimately, I don’t think I’ll ever particularly enjoy Ross’ slightly passive, functional non possession counter attacking style, despite the proof in the pudding of 3rd showing it is effective.
You want us to lose a manager who's made progress, and built an excellent foundation for us to build on?

Why not give Ross the benefit of doubt, and let him build on those excellent foundations, and see if he can build an even better side and have them playing a different style?

Everything needs to be done yesterday it seems now, there is a much bigger picture to see if you just open your mind and look. :wink:

[bingo70]

You want us to lose a manager who's made progress, and built an excellent foundation for us to build on?

Why not give Ross the benefit of doubt, and let him build on those excellent foundations, and see if he can build an even better side and have them playing a different style?

Everything needs to be done yesterday it seems now, there is a much bigger picture to see if you just open your mind and look. :wink:

End of the day, Ross is going to get next season to do just that so I wouldn’t worry too much about what a few of us on here think.

What you’ve described is a great scenario, I would love it if we start to play a different style of football next season with more possession, energy and tenacity. I personally don’t think we will and I’m guessing neither does the poster you’ve quoted, hence the concern.

[flash]

McInnes did win something to be fair.

I don’t think it’s that bad a comparison. Infact at this point it’s probably a flattering comparison for Ross. McInnes done a good job up there.
Yeah he kept finishing third.

[HendoDelivered]

Yeah he kept finishing third.

Won the league cup too.

[flash]

Making a semi final isn’t winning a cup though? Aberdeen were probably semi finalists/finalists a decent number of times under McInnes as well

Not sure I’d go as far as to compare him to McInnes like for like but I can see where the posters coming from

He was there for years though. Why would we not give our manager a decent amount of time when he has us in the best league position we can realistically finish in.
Nobody is happy with how the cups have turned out but Ross has to be allowed time to rectify that.
It's become a bit surreal if Derek McInnes is now judged as a failure at Aberdeen.

[MWHIBBIES]

Forget 3rd place and cup targets, the bottom line is do you want to see Saturdays type of performance next season ? That is what you are going to get for sure, why will it be any different as he couldn't sort his tactics out again to combat St Johnston so you will get teams pressing us high up the pitch and reverting to hoofball. Remember the game against the Hearts at ER ? I rest my case.

Hibs aren't ever getting a manager who stops all bad performances.

[blackpoolhibs]

End of the day, Ross is going to get next season to do just that so I wouldn’t worry too much about what a few of us on here think.

What you’ve described is a great scenario, I would love it if we start to play a different style of football next season with more possession, energy and tenacity. I personally don’t think we will and I’m guessing neither does the poster you’ve quoted, hence the concern.

I have no idea if he will either, but he's done the job he was asked to do, we have built excellent foundations for the club to succeed again, but and there is always a but isn't there, we will again lose some players.

And it gives Ross the chance to bring in more players, and looking at it, He has a good record at that, he can spot a player in my opinion, so we must give him a chance.

Although with lots of folk saying he will get the chance through gritted teeth, he will again only be a defeat away from the frothing at the mouth lot sticking the boot in.

[calumhibee1]

Won the league cup too.

And finished second

[oneone73]

Yeah he kept finishing third.

Not in the last three seasons he didn't.

[The Modfather]

You want us to lose a manager who's made progress, and built an excellent foundation for us to build on?

Why not give Ross the benefit of doubt, and let him build on those excellent foundations, and see if he can build an even better side and have them playing a different style?

Everything needs to be done yesterday it seems now, there is a much bigger picture to see if you just open your mind and look. :wink:

Even allowing for the fact we’ve not been there and the Hampden visits clouding my judgement. Despite a successful league finish, from a footballing perspective its not a league season I’ll look back on with much fondness.

I don’t get the feeling our style is a means to an end, I think it’s Ross’ preferred style. I also think he is very poor tactically, has no plan B and our success in a game ultimately comes down to whether we can score first or not. The final and the set up gave me huge concerns that he doesn’t learn lessons. He has one formation and rarely changes from that whoever we’re playing or whether we have the players suited to that formation or not.

As I re-iterate, I don’t want him sacked nor believe he should or will be. I’d not be sad if he was to leave though.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I have no idea if he will either, but he's done the job he was asked to do, we have built excellent foundations for the club to succeed again, but and there is always a but isn't there, we will again lose some players.

And it gives Ross the chance to bring in more players, and looking at it, He has a good record at that, he can spot a player in my opinion, so we must give him a chance.

Although with lots of folk saying he will get the chance through gritted teeth, he will again only be a defeat away from the frothing at the mouth lot sticking the boot in.

Absolutely right BH. There’s a toxic element waiting to pounce.

[flash]

Not in the last three seasons he didn't.

And that's why he left. Before that his league record was superb.

[Robbo6-2]

I still cant believe he said he was proud of his team on Saturday.

Few days on and that is what still annoys me.

[Stuart93]

He was there for years though. Why would we not give our manager a decent amount of time when he has us in the best league position we can realistically finish in.
Nobody is happy with how the cups have turned out but Ross has to be allowed time to rectify that.
It's become a bit surreal if Derek McInnes is now judged as a failure at Aberdeen.

I’ve not said we shouldn’t give Jack Ross time, our third place finish has allowed him that

My only worry is that we won’t get a better chance to win either cup than we had this season

He was judged by his own fans as a failure as they wanted rid of him. Not sure if we’re in a better position to decide if he was a failure or not than them.

[matty_f]

I still cant believe he said he was proud of his team on Saturday.

Few days on and that is what still annoys me.

I think he knew the flak that was headed his/their way and as a manager he decided he’d take as much of it off his players as he could.

Not what the fans want to hear, but the players that he needs behind him in the future will appreciate it.

[The Modfather]

Absolutely right BH. There’s a toxic element waiting to pounce.

There is, it’s a minority, and it’s also utterly boring to obsess over that toxic minority. There’s also a minority unwilling to debate things like Ross’ tactics and learning lessons etc, simply dismissing these as we in finished 3rd which is equally as boring.

The board has calmed down, there’s a lot of good debate now happening but there’s still an obsession to talk about the toxic element waiting in the wings. They are dwarfed by those either in the middle or pleased with Ross, the board will be a much more constructive place If we all posted along those lines and left the toxic minority to themselves.

[Danderhall Hibs]

There is, it’s a minority, and it’s also utterly boring to obsess over that toxic minority. There’s also a minority unwilling to debate things like Ross’ tactics and learning lessons etc, simply dismissing these as we in finished 3rd which is equally as boring.

The board has calmed down, there’s a lot of good debate now happening but there’s still an obsession to talk about the toxic element waiting in the wings. They are dwarfed by those either in the middle or pleased with Ross, the board will be a much more constructive place If we all posted along those lines and left the toxic minority to themselves.

I agree - it’s tough with it being such a noisy minority. They’ve done it before - they won’t let up.

[Jones28]

I think he knew the flak that was headed his/their way and as a manager he decided he’d take as much of it off his players as he could.

Not what the fans want to hear, but the players that he needs behind him in the future will appreciate it.

Thats what I think as well, he's trying to deflect from the players to an extent.


I dont particularly agree with it, he was well within his rights to slaughter them IMO.

[bingo70]

I think he knew the flak that was headed his/their way and as a manager he decided he’d take as much of it off his players as he could.

Not what the fans want to hear, but the players that he needs behind him in the future will appreciate it.

I disagree.

Much of that starting 11 will be away this summer anyway.

Telling players they did well when they didn’t isn’t helping anyone. The manager needs to be demanding more from his players. If he is telling them that privately but saying something different behind closed doors is pointless IMO.

[Peevemor]

Yeah he kept finishing third.


There is, it’s a minority, and it’s also utterly boring to obsess over that toxic minority. There’s also a minority unwilling to debate things like Ross’ tactics and learning lessons etc, simply dismissing these as we in finished 3rd which is equally as boring.

The board has calmed down, there’s a lot of good debate now happening but there’s still an obsession to talk about the toxic element waiting in the wings. They are dwarfed by those either in the middle or pleased with Ross, the board will be a much more constructive place If we all posted along those lines and left the toxic minority to themselves.

Nobody's obsessing over the "toxic minority", but they're on every thread repeatedly coming out with the same stuff. If they'd just bog off and leave this place to the grown-ups then theyd' be forgotten about soon enough.

[blackpoolhibs]

There is, it’s a minority, and it’s also utterly boring to obsess over that toxic minority. There’s also a minority unwilling to debate things like Ross’ tactics and learning lessons etc, simply dismissing these as we in finished 3rd which is equally as boring.

The board has calmed down, there’s a lot of good debate now happening but there’s still an obsession to talk about the toxic element waiting in the wings. They are dwarfed by those either in the middle or pleased with Ross, the board will be a much more constructive place If we all posted along those lines and left the toxic minority to themselves.

I have said i dont agree with Ross's selections many times, and his tactics. For instance just last week i mentioned i would have played Rocky in goal, and Hallberg instead of Newell, and Daz instead of Porteous.

I dont like the way he plays central midfielders wide left, although i can understand it as we dont really have a wide left player available apart from Murphy, and he's not been fit enough recently.

I dont for one minute believe he asks the players to play hoofball, but mostly we dont, but we do when we are struggling to beat teams or have gone behind.

We have progressed, not enough is made of that, and he deserves time to stabilise us again, as we will sell some of our supposed better players and build again.

We will always be a selling club, but stability is key for a club like ours, and having someone at the club who's already done what he has is a good starting point rather than sack hire sack hire.

But as i said earlier, everything is wanted yesterday, and screaming loudly at how hurt you are and how a new manager will somehow have us playing like Brazil and winning things is just daft.

[flash]

I’ve not said we shouldn’t give Jack Ross time, our third place finish has allowed him that

My only worry is that we won’t get a better chance to win either cup than we had this season

He was judged by his own fans as a failure as they wanted rid of him. Not sure if we’re in a better position to decide if he was a failure or not than them.

Thing is Stuart those Aberdeen fans may be about to discover that he didn't do such a bad job after all.

[Peevemor]

I disagree.

Much of that starting 11 will be away this summer anyway.

Telling players they did well when they didn’t isn’t helping anyone. The manager needs to be demanding more from his players. If he is telling them that privately but saying something different behind closed doors is pointless IMO.

What's said to the players and what's said to the public isn't necessarily the same thing.

[The Spaceman]

It was a great season by any seasons standards. Anyone who thinks otherwise should simply go support someone else - my recommendation would be the Old Firm, PSG or Man City.

[The Modfather]

Nobody's obsessing over the "toxic minority", but they're on every thread repeatedly coming out with the same stuff. If they'd just bog off and leave this place to the grown-ups then theyd' be forgotten about soon enough.

We can all either put them on ignore, report them or stop replying to them and giving them the oxygen they crave. There’s plenty of decent debate and decent posters still around to engage in. The boards would be a better place if they were left without people to argue with.

It feels like the toxic minority are referenced as many times as they post their toxicity. It all becomes a bit boring and self fulfilling IMO.

[Just_Jimmy]

Jack Ross has the best record as Hibs manager we have seen in the last 20 years. It would be very stupid to get rid of him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkand yet isn't even close to Stubbs and Collins in stature.

Ross blew his chance to top the lot. not sure id sack him like, but if he decides Rotherham is a challenge then good luck.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[bingo70]

What's said to the players and what's said to the public isn't necessarily the same thing.

Of course not but mollycoddling the players in the eyes of the supporters in case you might upset one or two of them isn’t helping them, or the club either.

We don’t know what’s said behind closed doors so we need to take Ross at face value.

There’s ways to tell the supporters you know that’s not been good enough and the players have been told that without hanging them out to dry. Jack Ross is smart enough to know how to do that as well so I’ve got my doubts if he said anything harsher behind closed doors. Will never know though.

[matty_f]

I disagree.

Much of that starting 11 will be away this summer anyway.

Telling players they did well when they didn’t isn’t helping anyone. The manager needs to be demanding more from his players. If he is telling them that privately but saying something different behind closed doors is pointless IMO.

He said he was proud of them for what they given him this season, he should be. Not for Saturday, but overall he’s right.

I don’t think most of that eleven will change over the summer, by the way.

[Just_Jimmy]

Hibs aren't ever getting a manager who stops all bad performances.no team is. even man city turn in duff performances.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

and yet isn't even close to Stubbs and Collins in stature.

Ross blew his chance to top the lot. not sure id sack him like, but if he decides Rotherham is a challenge then good luck.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
He blew a chance. Collins blew it against Dunfermline over two games, Stubbs blew it on the play off and the league cup, but they got other chances that they took.

Ross will, imho, have other chances if we give him time. We’re not at the later stages of Cup competitions by accident, it’s where we want to be and where the squad is being built to be.

[wookie70]

[QUOTE=He has one formation and rarely changes from that whoever we’re playing or whether we have the players suited to that formation or not.

[/QUOTE] We have played different formations within the same game and have definitely played a variety of formations throughout the season.
If he finishes 3rd again next year and improves the entertainment he will be doing a great job.

[jeffers]

He blew a chance. Collins blew it against Dunfermline over two games, Stubbs blew it on the play off and the league cup, but they got other chances that they took.

Ross will, imho, have other chances if we give him time. We’re not at the later stages of Cup competitions by accident, it’s where we want to be and where the squad is being built to be.

Ross didn’t blow a chance he blew three chances after having very favourable draws in all of those competitions. Yes we may have other chances, but we could just as easily draw The Huns, Celtic or even Hearts away (never mind the mighty St Johnstone) in an early round and get knocked out.

[bingo70]

He said he was proud of them for what they given him this season, he should be. Not for Saturday, but overall he’s right.

I don’t think most of that eleven will change over the summer, by the way.

So what did Jack Ross think about the performance on Saturday then?

I’ve only read the headlines and what I’ve picked up on here, can’t bring myself to listen to his post match interview.

[blackpoolhibs]

So what did Jack Ross think about the performance on Saturday then?

I’ve only read the headlines and what I’ve picked up on here, can’t bring myself to listen to his post match interview.

Surely you don't listen to anything any manager says and take it as gospel?

They are programmed to lie to us, it's practically written into their contracts. :greengrin

[Peevemor]

Of course not but mollycoddling the players in the eyes of the supporters in case you might upset one or two of them isn’t helping them, or the club either.

We don’t know what’s said behind closed doors so we need to take Ross at face value.

There’s ways to tell the supporters you know that’s not been good enough and the players have been told that without hanging them out to dry. Jack Ross is smart enough to know how to do that as well so I’ve got my doubts if he said anything harsher behind closed doors. Will never know though.

To be honest I still haven't watched his post match interview from Saturday - I'm not sure I ever will.

I generally enjoy his interviews and press conferences. I think he comes across very well and is one of very few football people who will hold my attention longer than 2-3 minutes.

However I take a lot of what he says, especially post match/defeat with a huge pinch of salt.

[matty_f]

Ross didn’t blow a chance he blew three chances after having very favourable draws in all of those competitions. Yes we may have other chances, but we could just as easily draw The Huns, Celtic or even Hearts away (never mind the mighty St Johnstone) in an early round and get knocked out.

**** him, then. He’ll never get another chance, get rid now.

[jeffers]

**** him, then. He’ll never get another chance, get rid now.

Great response. Well done you.

[matty_f]

So what did Jack Ross think about the performance on Saturday then?

I’ve only read the headlines and what I’ve picked up on here, can’t bring myself to listen to his post match interview.

I have no idea, i saw that bit and turned off because i was annoyed and I’ve not watched anything else about it.

[matty_f]

Great response. Well done you.

Well what do you expect? You refuse to entertain the idea that we might get back there again, what reaction are you expecting?


Why not go further, he might not get third next season, he might never win another game, we might lose all the derbies.

Why is it the worst case scenarios you pluck out?

[bingo70]

Surely you don't listen to anything any manager says and take it as gospel?

They are programmed to lie to us, it's practically written into their contracts. :greengrin

Oh I get that, I really do. The lying *******s, they’re worse than politicians.

In saying that, I think there’s still ways of calling out poor performances and letting supporters know that wasn’t acceptable without hanging the players out to dry. Jack Ross is a very smart guy, a million times more intelligent than me I’m sure so why isn’t he playing the game better?

I think Ross is very media savvy and has mastered the art of giving interviews without actually saying anything. Just my opinion but I think that’s why a lot of people haven’t taken to him, he’s almost robot like in that you know what he’s going to say before he’s said it half the time. I think he’s shown a lack of awareness after the game though in terms of what the fans expectation were for that game. Just barely even turning up, not laying a glove on St Johnstone and expecting people to just be happy we got there was always going to provoke a reaction.

I remember after we got beat at Pittodrie he let the mask slip a bit and he was really angry, was the only time I remember seeing genuine emotion from him this season and I thought it was brilliant, I’d love to see more of that from him after defeats.

[blackpoolhibs]

Oh I get that, I really do. The lying *******s, they’re worse than politicians.

In saying that, I think there’s still ways of calling out poor performances and letting supporters know that wasn’t acceptable without hanging the players out to dry. Jack Ross is a very smart guy, a million times more intelligent than me I’m sure so why isn’t he playing the game better?

I think Ross is very media savvy and has mastered the art of giving interviews without actually saying anything. Just my opinion but I think that’s why a lot of people haven’t taken to him, he’s almost robot like in that you know what he’s going to say before he’s said it half the time. I think he’s shown a lack of awareness after the game though in terms of what the fans expectation were for that game. Just barely even turning up, not laying a glove on St Johnstone and expecting people to just be happy we got there was always going to provoke a reaction.

I remember after we got beat at Pittodrie he let the mask slip a bit and he was really angry, was the only time I remember seeing genuine emotion from him this season and I thought it was brilliant, I’d love to see more of that from him after defeats.

If i'm being really honest, i also find his interviews a bit boring, but i find most managers just tell us a lot of nothing. I dont listen much at all to him, i think thats probably for the best. :greengrin

[calumhibee1]

Well what do you expect? You refuse to entertain the idea that we might get back there again, what reaction are you expecting?


Why not go further, he might not get third next season, he might never win another game, we might lose all the derbies.

Why is it the worst case scenarios you pluck out?

He specifically said he may get another chance? Surely by doing that he’s actively acknowledging we could get back there again :confused:

You seem to be determined to argue with people that much that you keep reading things that aren’t in peoples posts. In fact, you seem to keep reading the complete opposite.

[jeffers]

Well what do you expect? You refuse to entertain the idea that we might get back there again, what reaction are you expecting?


Why not go further, he might not get third next season, he might never win another game, we might lose all the derbies.

Why is it the worst case scenarios you pluck out?

Better than that from you. If you read my response I said yes we may have other chances. Quite how you take that I’m refusing to entertain the idea we might get back there again I don’t know.

He may well not get third next season, I expect it to be a harder task than it was this season.

I’m pointing out that with unfavourable draws getting further in cup competitions isn’t as likely, I don’t think we can continue to expect the type we’ve had in the past three competitions. It’s a counter to the view that we will get to the later stages in future under Ross.

[bingo70]

If i'm being really honest, i also find his interviews a bit boring, but i find most managers just tell us a lot of nothing. I dont listen much at all to him, i think thats probably for the best. :greengrin

I liked Neil Lennons as he was a bit radge and you never knew what you were going to get.

I liked Mowbray as despite his dour tone I always found him really interesting and felt he always had something to say.

I liked Stubbs as I think he was quite charismatic if that’s the right word, he struck me as someone that would be good to go for a pint with. Just got honest opinions from him I think.

I’ve found Heckingbottom and Ross very similar though in that I think they’re very cagey and you could be listening to a textbook talking, being careful not to say anything. I think both of them are cut from the same cloth, maybe something the textbooks or media training doesn’t tell you is that if you aren’t yourself or honest when giving interviews, that might hamper building relationships with the supporters. I think coaches need to let their guard down sometimes to supporters can relate to them and see the human side of them.

People buy people as the saying goes in the sales world. Maybe similar principles in the football environment too.

[Hibbyradge]

There is, it’s a minority, and it’s also utterly boring to obsess over that toxic minority. There’s also a minority unwilling to debate things like Ross’ tactics and learning lessons etc, simply dismissing these as we in finished 3rd which is equally as boring.

The board has calmed down, there’s a lot of good debate now happening but there’s still an obsession to talk about the toxic element waiting in the wings. They are dwarfed by those either in the middle or pleased with Ross, the board will be a much more constructive place If we all posted along those lines and left the toxic minority to themselves.

I don't think people are unwilling to discuss Ross's abilities and performance. I think people just have a different opinion.

I think Ross uses our small squad in the way he thinks utilises their strengths. We don't have a wide left player so he has to use a midfielder.

The suggestion that he doesn't learn lessons is facile, but seems to be a fashionable cliché.

The fact that we've now signed a left sided player is evidence against both those charges.

Armchair fans manage with hindsight, but have no idea why decisions are made and never have to consider the consequences of their quick fire solutions.

[Since452]

**** him, then. He’ll never get another chance, get rid now.

Do you have any idea of who you'd like to see replace him? Just curious. Massive risk to sack a guy who has just finished 3rd, qualified for Europe, got to Hampden in every competition he's entered for a punt on someone else in the hope they'd do better. McInnes maybe? Cant think of anyone else.

[blackpoolhibs]

Do you have any idea of who you'd like to see replace him? Just curious. Massive risk to sack a guy who has just finished 3rd, qualified for Europe got to Hampden in every competition he's entered for a punt on someone else in the hope they'd do better.
:faf:

[Stuart93]

**** him, then. He’ll never get another chance, get rid now.

Poor response that by your standards

Posters only saying that he hasn’t only blown one chance this season, he’s blown 3 good chances on 3 separate occasions at winning a cup.

It’s unlikely we’ll get as good a chance of it again next year. Wasn’t it the first time in however many years that neither of the old firm were involved in the semi finals of both cups?

You can stick your head in the sand if you want, 3 massive opportunities wasted this season in the cups. That’s just a fact and in no way belittling his & the teams achievement of finishing 3rd.

[MrSmith]

I liked Neil Lennons as he was a bit radge and you never knew what you were going to get.

I liked Mowbray as despite his dour tone I always found him really interesting and felt he always had something to say.

I liked Stubbs as I think he was quite charismatic if that’s the right word, he struck me as someone that would be good to go for a pint with. Just got honest opinions from him I think.

I’ve found Heckingbottom and Ross very similar though in that I think they’re very cagey and you could be listening to a textbook talking, being careful not to say anything. I think both of them are cut from the same cloth, maybe something the textbooks or media training doesn’t tell you is that if you aren’t yourself or honest when giving interviews, that might hamper building relationships with the supporters. I think coaches need to let their guard down sometimes to supporters can relate to them and see the human side of them.

People buy people as the saying goes in the sales world. Maybe similar principles in the football environment too.

That paragraph is exactly my feelings! I was in the Percy on Saturday watching the match or shall I say shouting "pass the ball forward" very Heckingbottom!

[blackpoolhibs]

I liked Neil Lennons as he was a bit radge and you never knew what you were going to get.

I liked Mowbray as despite his dour tone I always found him really interesting and felt he always had something to say.

I liked Stubbs as I think he was quite charismatic if that’s the right word, he struck me as someone that would be good to go for a pint with. Just got honest opinions from him I think.

I’ve found Heckingbottom and Ross very similar though in that I think they’re very cagey and you could be listening to a textbook talking, being careful not to say anything. I think both of them are cut from the same cloth, maybe something the textbooks or media training doesn’t tell you is that if you aren’t yourself or honest when giving interviews, that might hamper building relationships with the supporters. I think coaches need to let their guard down sometimes to supporters can relate to them and see the human side of them.

People buy people as the saying goes in the sales world. Maybe similar principles in the football environment too.

I liked listening to Lennon, he was daft and said more than he probably wanted to say, Stubbs for me just speaks in cliche's and thinks about every bloody word he says, he's more ponderous than our current midfield.

Mowbray was good early doors, he was very thoughtful and for me knew what he was saying and how to implement what he thought.

[bingo70]

I liked listening to Lennon, he was daft and said more than he probably wanted to say, Stubbs for me just speaks in cliche's and thinks about every bloody word he says, he's more ponderous than our current midfield.

Mowbray was good early doors, he was very thoughtful and for me knew what he was saying and how to implement what he thought.

See, you can like listening to managers sometimes 😉 😂

[SHODAN]

Is Jack Ross gone yet?

No?

Good.

[The Modfather]

I don't think people are unwilling to discuss Ross's abilities and performance. I think people just have a different opinion.

I think Ross uses our small squad in the way he thinks utilises their strengths. We don't have a wide left player so he has to use a midfielder.

The suggestion that he doesn't learn lessons is facile, but seems to be a fashionable cliché.

The fact that we've now signed a left sided player is evidence against both those charges.

Armchair fans manage with hindsight, but have no idea why decisions are made and never have to consider the consequences of their quick fire solutions.

Some fair points. However one of our best and most balanced performances was the Aberdeen home game where we played 352 and had a really good blend of Gogic, Irvine & Murphy. Newell came back and we never saw that formation or lineup again. We also never tried Stevenson LB and Doig LM. It was a choice to play the likes of Maggenis or Irvine out somewhere on the left. Where they were hung out to dry IMO.

I think there’s valid concerns about lessons learned in our approach, formation and lineup in the cup final to the majority of games it had struggled against St Johnstone. When I saw the lineup I’d have bet more money than not it would unfold the way it did.

Mackay is a promising first step in recruitment though as we badly need some natural width in the left. Be interesting to see how he shapes central midfield over the summer too.

[Hibbyradge]

Thats what I think as well, he's trying to deflect from the players to an extent.


I dont particularly agree with it, he was well within his rights to slaughter them IMO.

It might be be understandable from a human perspective if he had lashed out, but it would have been weak of him, and very poor management. Public humiliation isn't a skill recommended in any leadership manual I've read.

Alex Ferguson was famous for his "hairdryer treatment", but that was done in private. On the few occasions that I can remember him being openly critical of players, it was measured and precise.

Jose Mourinho resorts to doing that every time he starts to get found out and it unfailingly leads to a decline in performances and his inevitable departure.

I remember Yogi Hughes slapping Makalamby across the head as they were coming off the pitch after the keeper had made a mistake that cost us the game. It was a hard slap, but it was done for the fans benefit and Hughes went down in my estimation for doing that.

What good would it really have done if Ross had "slaughtered" his team in the interviews? Players would start to defend themselves and point fingers at each other and the manager. It certainly wouldn't encourage players who are considering their contract options to stay.

And would it have placated the fans? Not a chance.

Ross is intelligent and strong enough mentally to take the heat because he knows it's best for the club.

[blackpoolhibs]

See, you can like listening to managers sometimes 😉 😂
:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Some fair points. However one of our best and most balanced performances was the Aberdeen home game where we played 352 and had a really good blend of Gogic, Irvine & Murphy. Newell came back and we never saw that formation or lineup again. We also never tried Stevenson LB and Doig LM. It was a choice to play the likes of Maggenis or Irvine out somewhere on the left. Where they were hung out to dry IMO.

I think there’s valid concerns about lessons learned in our approach, formation and lineup in the cup final to the majority of games it had struggled against St Johnstone. When I saw the lineup I’d have bet more money than not it would unfold the way it did.

Mackay is a promising first step in recruitment though as we badly need some natural width in the left. Be interesting to see how he shapes central midfield over the summer too.

You can learn all the lessons, but you're always going to frustrated if you don't have the means to act upon them.

[matty_f]

Do you have any idea of who you'd like to see replace him? Just curious. Massive risk to sack a guy who has just finished 3rd, qualified for Europe, got to Hampden in every competition he's entered for a punt on someone else in the hope they'd do better. McInnes maybe? Cant think of anyone else.

I was being flippant, I think the idea of sacking him is absolutely absurd.

[matty_f]

Poor response that by your standards

Posters only saying that he hasn’t only blown one chance this season, he’s blown 3 good chances on 3 separate occasions at winning a cup.

It’s unlikely we’ll get as good a chance of it again next year. Wasn’t it the first time in however many years that neither of the old firm were involved in the semi finals of both cups?

You can stick your head in the sand if you want, 3 massive opportunities wasted this season in the cups. That’s just a fact and in no way belittling his & the teams achievement of finishing 3rd.

How’s it sticking my head in the sand?

[matty_f]

Better than that from you. If you read my response I said yes we may have other chances. Quite how you take that I’m refusing to entertain the idea we might get back there again I don’t know.

He may well not get third next season, I expect it to be a harder task than it was this season.

I’m pointing out that with unfavourable draws getting further in cup competitions isn’t as likely, I don’t think we can continue to expect the type we’ve had in the past three competitions. It’s a counter to the view that we will get to the later stages in future under Ross.

When you say we might, but then go on to list a load of things to say we won’t, it’s not really acknowledging.

It’s like me saying i really like your posts, but a lot of the time you post rubbish. What do you take from that sentence?

[jeffers]

You can learn all the lessons, but you're always going to frustrated if you don't have the means to act upon them.

Which may well be true, but it looked liked he didn’t even try to do something different on Saturday just went with more or less the same formation that had failed miserably in previous games against them.

I can’t believe we don’t have the players capable of beating St Johnstone.

[matty_f]

He specifically said he may get another chance? Surely by doing that he’s actively acknowledging we could get back there again :confused:

You seem to be determined to argue with people that much that you keep reading things that aren’t in peoples posts. In fact, you seem to keep reading the complete opposite.
Oh hiya.

[jeffers]

When you say we might, but then go on to list a load of things to say we won’t, it’s not really acknowledging.

It’s like me saying i really like your posts, but a lot of the time you post rubbish. What do you take from that sentence?

No it’s a balance. It’s as likely a view as yours that he’ll get more chances.

I take from your last sentence that you are being a prick.

[matty_f]

No it’s a balance. It’s as likely a view as yours that he’ll get more chances.

I take from your last sentence that you are being a prick.

I might be, but i might not be.

[The Modfather]

You can learn all the lessons, but you're always going to frustrated if you don't have the means to act upon them.

It maybe just comes down to opinions so no right or wrong answer. We had the option of 352 and the Aberdeen lineup as an alternative to the tried and failed lopsided 442. Before the game I’d have said a lopsided 442 makes it easy to double up on our most dangerous player, Boyle. Without sacrificing anything on the left as it’s only Doig on his own out there. Thus negating our width and playing into St Johnstone’s strengths in the middle.

[jeffers]

I might be, but i might not be.

Finally some balance.

[J-C]

I might be, but i might not be.

I generally like reading your opinion on here but the last few pages you've really went down in my estimation. Deliberately provocative to the extreme I'd call it trolling just to get reactions, pretty poor by you tbh.

[Hibbyradge]

It maybe just comes down to opinions so no right or wrong answer. We had the option of 352 and the Aberdeen lineup as an alternative to the tried and failed lopsided 442. Before the game I’d have said a lopsided 442 makes it easy to double up on our most dangerous player, Boyle. Without sacrificing anything on the left as it’s only Doig on his own out there. Thus negating our width and playing into St Johnstone’s strengths in the middle.

The team that started was what nearly everyone would have picked, save the argument between Porto and Fax.

I don't know why we didn't seem to change our approach when it wasn't working, but JR is a good manager and I have to conclude that he will have considered doing that and had reasons for not doing so.

[matty_f]

I generally like reading your opinion on here but the last few pages you've really went down in my estimation. Deliberately provocative to the extreme I'd call it trolling just to get reactions, pretty poor by you tbh.

Thanks. :aok:

[flash]

I generally like reading your opinion on here but the last few pages you've really went down in my estimation. Deliberately provocative to the extreme I'd call it trolling just to get reactions, pretty poor by you tbh.

I would suggest the opposite. I see Matty trying to provide a balanced response to the relentless negativity of some posters.
The determination of some to make the same point on as many threads as possible is impressive in a sort of "how can they be arsed" way but incredibly boring nonetheless.

[Peevemor]

I would suggest the opposite. I see Matty trying to provide a balanced response to the relentless negativity of some posters.
The determination of some to make the same point on as many threads as possible is impressive in a sort of "how can they be arsed" way but incredibly boring nonetheless.

At least it's given me some time off to get on with some work! :greengrin

[bingo70]

The team that started was what nearly everyone would have picked, save the argument between Porto and Fax.

I don't know why we didn't seem to change our approach when it wasn't working, but JR is a good manager and I have to conclude that he will have considered doing that and had reasons for not doing so.

Yes, I think the vast majority would have picked the team that started, with the exception of Daz/Porteous and possibly Hallberg may have caused a bit debate.

In hindsight, I really wish we had started Murphy on the left to provide width and pin Rooney back. I wasn’t calling for that before kick off though so I’m not going to be a hypocrite by calling Ross out on that now, he never had the benefit of picking the team with the benefit of hindsight.

[superfurryhibby]

The team that started was what nearly everyone would have picked, save the argument between Porto and Fax.

I don't know why we didn't seem to change our approach when it wasn't working, but JR is a good manager and I have to conclude that he will have considered doing that and had reasons for not doing so.

There's a contradiction in there. He got the tactics wrong and was unwilling to change things when everyone could see it wasn't working. Surely a good manager employs a flexible approach and can respond to the way a game is panning out?

Saturdays dismal performance was less to do with team selection, as you say there wasn't that much to debate, and more to do with our clueless strategy and managerial inability to change the game plan.

[Bangkok Hibby]

That paragraph is exactly my feelings! I was in the Percy on Saturday watching the match or shall I say shouting "pass the ball forward" very Heckingbottom!

I've no strong opinion either way on Jack Ross but I've felt for a long time he's Heckingbottom mk 2.

[calumhibee1]

I would suggest the opposite. I see Matty trying to provide a balanced response to the relentless negativity of some posters.
The determination of some to make the same point on as many threads as possible is impressive in a sort of "how can they be arsed" way but incredibly boring nonetheless.

There’s two sides to every argument. For all the same points being made on one side of the argument, there’s the same point being made to counter it on the other side over and over.

[matty_f]

There's a contradiction in there. He got the tactics wrong and was unwilling to change things when everyone could see it wasn't working. Surely a good manager employs a flexible approach and can respond to the way a game is panning out?

Saturdays dismal performance was less to do with team selection, as you say there wasn't that much to debate, and more to do with our clueless strategy and managerial inability to change the game plan.

I think it was all of that, the manager got things wrong and he’s accountable, the players are abysmal to the point that it didn’t really matter what the tactics were, we wouldn’t have won, imho.

[calumhibee1]

I generally like reading your opinion on here but the last few pages you've really went down in my estimation. Deliberately provocative to the extreme I'd call it trolling just to get reactions, pretty poor by you tbh.

:agree:

[flash]

I've no strong opinion either way on Jack Ross but I've felt for a long time he's Heckingbottom mk 2.

That looks like a strong opinion to me.

[matty_f]

I would suggest the opposite. I see Matty trying to provide a balanced response to the relentless negativity of some posters.
The determination of some to make the same point on as many threads as possible is impressive in a sort of "how can they be arsed" way but incredibly boring nonetheless.

Thanks - I’m not trolling, just looking for consistency in the points being made. You can’t hold up Collins and Stubbs as bastions of not blowing it at Hampden when there are examples of them doing it, at the same time as assuming Ross won’t get past his failures.

You can’t say Stubbs has an amazing big game record while ignoring the numerous big games that he lost (not to mention the number of “small” games that he didn’t win that prevented us moving out of the Championship.

It’s the very selective use of criteria/measures that I’m challenging.

Not once have i said that Ross was blameless or that he shouldn’t be criticised. Just would be good to have the same standards applied to him that are applied to everyone he’s being compared negatively to.

Even folk talking down finishing third, sure you don’t get a medal for it, and we’d all have taken fourth and a cup, or fifth with two cups - of course we would, but why the self-flagellation and rush to demean the achievements we’ve made?

Harry made a brilliant defence of the league on the Down the Slope podcast, it shows how absurd the idea that the League was devalued somehow is.

If folk think I’m trolling, i don’t care, I’m not.

[ahibby]

I was being flippant, I think the idea of sacking him is absolutely absurd.

What is annoying about him is those massive fails we have seen in performances at ER and Hampden this season and the fact that they are prevalent. One question is are they avoidable? His post match interview on Saturday left me uninspired. Reasons for that have been very well explained and described in the thread ' What Jack Ross Didn't Say' He went back to the ' fine margins' message and said his players gave everything. Some say good managers dont slate their players in public and I think I agree with that. Hiwever I also think that the performance was worthy of an apology to the fans without slating the players he could have at least tried to describe what he might have got wrong. Yes there were some fine margins e.g. Irvine and Gogic might have scored but defensively we were ridiculously woeful at their goal having kept clean sheets against Aberdeen and Celtic. He could have given us an insight into his thoughts as to why the difference. I would have been inpired to hear his thoughts. Just saying fine margins again and my players gave everything, doesnt cover the reality of why his team have had some massive fails this season. The problem is, looking to the future, it doesnt look like he will improve and will keep doing what doesnt work in the big games. We might not be able to get better than him and so next year we might finish 5th depending on Aberdeen and Hearts and reach a semi depending in draws. I cant think of sny manager who would guarantee more than that. If Jack Ross dies better than that it will have been another good season ignoring the performances like those fails we have seen this season.

[The Modfather]

The team that started was what nearly everyone would have picked, save the argument between Porto and Fax.

I don't know why we didn't seem to change our approach when it wasn't working, but JR is a good manager and I have to conclude that he will have considered doing that and had reasons for not doing so.

Again, not an unreasonable position. I don’t agree with all of it but no harm in disagreeing.

My take home was that Ross was shown up tactically and I have a wider worry that tactics and ability to change a game are a weakness of his. We’re good at counter attacking and seeing out a lead. Our issues are when teams sit in and we can’t counter attack, and a fragility to any adversity. I think we’ve only won one game we’ve gone behind in (Ross County away?)

[matty_f]

What is annoying about him is those massive fails we have seen in performances at ER and Hampden this season and the fact that they are prevalent. One question is are they avoidable? His post match interview on Saturday left me uninspired. Reasons for that have been very well explained and described in the thread ' What Jack Ross Didn't Say' He went back to the ' fine margins' message and said his players gave everything. Some say good managers dont slate their players in public and I think I agree with that. Hiwever I also think that the performance was worthy of an apology to the fans without slating the players he could have at least tried to describe what he might have got wrong. Yes there were some fine margins e.g. Irvine and Gogic might have scored but defensively we were ridiculously woeful at their goal having kept clean sheets against Aberdeen and Celtic. He could have given us an insight into his thoughts as to why the difference. I would have been inpired to hear his thoughts. Just saying fine margins again and my players gave everything, doesnt cover the reality of why his team have had some massive fails this season. The problem is, looking to the future, it doesnt look like he will improve and will keep doing what doesnt work in the big games. We might not be able to get better than him and so next year we might finish 5th depending on Aberdeen and Hearts and reach a semi depending in draws. I cant think of sny manager who would guarantee more than that. If Jack Ross dies better than that it will have been another good season ignoring the performances like those fails we have seen this season.

Jack Ross had one of the best post-war top flight records of all our managers in terms of win %.

He had us a game away from our best season in most of our lifetimes. There were polls before the game on Saturday asking if he could be our greatest ever Manager.

Yes, he fell short, and has done before, but he’s also bounced back before.

Sacking him because we reached but didn’t win a cup final, despite everything else he’s achieved would be the biggest case of cutting your nose off to spite your face since Brexit.

If you only view his failures and see that as enough to sack him, then you’re always going to be chasing managers out there club.

The very idea that he should be sacked, in my own humble opinion, I’d absolutely stupid to the biggest degree of stupidity i can think of.

[Heisenberg]

I've no strong opinion either way on Jack Ross but I've felt for a long time he's Heckingbottom mk 2.

JR is, quite clearly, a much better manager for Hibs than Paul Heckingbottom was or ever would’ve been.

[Brightside]

Thanks - I’m not trolling, just looking for consistency in the points being made. You can’t hold up Collins and Stubbs as bastions of not blowing it at Hampden when there are examples of them doing it, at the same time as assuming Ross won’t get past his failures.

You can’t say Stubbs has an amazing big game record while ignoring the numerous big games that he lost (not to mention the number of “small” games that he didn’t win that prevented us moving out of the Championship.

It’s the very selective use of criteria/measures that I’m challenging.

Not once have i said that Ross was blameless or that he shouldn’t be criticised. Just would be good to have the same standards applied to him that are applied to everyone he’s being compared negatively to.

Even folk talking down finishing third, sure you don’t get a medal for it, and we’d all have taken fourth and a cup, or fifth with two cups - of course we would, but why the self-flagellation and rush to demean the achievements we’ve made?

Harry made a brilliant defence of the league on the Down the Slope podcast, it shows how absurd the idea that the League was devalued somehow is.

If folk think I’m trolling, i don’t care, I’m not.

Good post.

[matty_f]

:agree:

If you think it’s trolling then i can only apologise that i haven’t made my points clear enough for you to understand them.

Sorry about that.

[Hibbyradge]

There's a contradiction in there. He got the tactics wrong and was unwilling to change things when everyone could see it wasn't working. Surely a good manager employs a flexible approach and can respond to the way a game is panning out?

Saturdays dismal performance was less to do with team selection, as you say there wasn't that much to debate, and more to do with our clueless strategy and managerial inability to change the game plan.

I don't think there's a contradiction. I'm saying that the manager will have considered changes, but decided against. I'm not party to his reasons but at 1-0 we were still in the game and a change could just as easily been worse for us than win us the match.

If we'd changed for example to 3 at the back, folk wouldn't be saying "At least he tried a change". They'd be asking why did we change when we were still in the game.

Remember too, things did change towards the end of the game and we opened up in an attempt to get an equaliser, but St Johnstone predictably started to create more chances.

It's not always the manager or even the players' fault when a team loses. Sometimes, most times, it's because the opposition played better. St Johnstone were superbly organised and they created a good chance from which they scored a very good goal.

Their performance was a bit like ours at Aberdeen. Completely disciplined and effective.

That's my opinion and I know some people disagree, but now that I've stated it, I'm not going to get involved in circular arguments which resolve nothing and often end up with bad feeling and arguments.

[blackpoolhibs]

I've no strong opinion either way on Jack Ross but I've felt for a long time he's Heckingbottom mk 2.

You cant be right there, one person here who's very anti Ross would be very pro Ross if that was the case. :faf:

[calumhibee1]

If you think it’s trolling then i can only apologise that i haven’t made my points clear enough for you to understand them.

Sorry about that.

It is trolling. You can claim it’s not but plenty posters have replied to you about it and seen through it.

You can claim it’s not but you’ve spent the last few days trying to belittle posters to the point you’re blatantly making up stuff to try and help you do it.

I mentioned the Falkirk semi final as a big game, you then replied to me and said ‘so the Falkirk semi final isn’t a big game? Sound.’

Jeffers mentioned that we might finish third next season, you then declared that he/she refuses to acknowledge that we could finish third next season.

You’re clearly not thick. You’re not misinterpreting these posts by accident. You’re doing it to try and troll other posters.

[Hibrandenburg]

I would suggest the opposite. I see Matty trying to provide a balanced response to the relentless negativity of some posters.
The determination of some to make the same point on as many threads as possible is impressive in a sort of "how can they be arsed" way but incredibly boring nonetheless.

Hear hear.

[Hibbyradge]

Again, not an unreasonable position. I don’t agree with all of it but no harm in disagreeing.

My take home was that Ross was shown up tactically and I have a wider worry that tactics and ability to change a game are a weakness of his. We’re good at counter attacking and seeing out a lead. Our issues are when teams sit in and we can’t counter attack, and a fragility to any adversity. I think we’ve only won one game we’ve gone behind in (Ross County away?)

I definitely agree we struggle when teams sit in, but I think that's more about personnel than tactics.

[J-C]

Jack Ross had one of the best post-war top flight records of all our managers in terms of win %.

He had us a game away from our best season in most of our lifetimes. There were polls before the game on Saturday asking if he could be our greatest ever Manager.

Yes, he fell short, and has done before, but he’s also bounced back before.

Sacking him because we reached but didn’t win a cup final, despite everything else he’s achieved would be the biggest case of cutting your nose off to spite your face since Brexit.

If you only view his failures and see that as enough to sack him, then you’re always going to be chasing managers out there club.

The very idea that he should be sacked, in my own humble opinion, I’d absolutely stupid to the biggest degree of stupidity i can think of.

I think everyone has said 3rd was a very good achievement, it was the sudden collapse in some games for no obvious reason, continuing with the same tactics against a team that knew how to play against us and the stubbornness not to do something about it. Should he be sacked, no but after the weekend and his post match comments, there's a large section who don't trust him anymore, if he left tomorrow I wouldn't bat an eyelid, apart from the very odd game his brand of football is turgid and industrial.

[blackpoolhibs]

I definitely agree we struggle when teams sit in, but I think that's more about personnel than tactics.

I agree, and it is the managers job to find that solution, and so far he does seem to me to have an eye for a decent player.

Why wouldn't he try and make us better? :agree:

[madhatter]

Think Jack Ross gets such a hard time due to his interview demeanour and our approach in games.

His interviews are almost scripted, “fine margins” has been mentioned numerous times. No surprise that journalists ask him about COVID and many non-Hibs specific matters frequently as he guarantees a well-reasoned response.

His approach in games tends to be like Heckingbottom. Solid defensively as long as all players remain focussed. It’s discipline over creative freedom though. Very stale in attacking play unless we are on break with Boyle.

We are a counter attack team that relies on Boyle. Recruitment, manager, and players need questioned. Signing 2 players with long term injuries in their recent history during a COVID season is more than a little risky. So is going with 2 senior strikers with COVID bubbles and loans preventing you from having any backup.

3rd is an achievement but we need to be taking the game to teams an awful lot more. I knew we’d lose as soon as I saw Hanlon and Porteous play passes between them in the 1st half. It was embarrassing, most of our 55% possession at the time would’ve been from that.

[Smartie]

Yes, I think the vast majority would have picked the team that started, with the exception of Daz/Porteous and possibly Hallberg may have caused a bit debate.

In hindsight, I really wish we had started Murphy on the left to provide width and pin Rooney back. I wasn’t calling for that before kick off though so I’m not going to be a hypocrite by calling Ross out on that now, he never had the benefit of picking the team with the benefit of hindsight.

He didn't have hindsight but he did have the benefit of having watched several broadly similar games between the clubs over the course of this season.

[SlickShoes]

I think everyone has said 3rd was a very good achievement, it was the sudden collapse in some games for no obvious reason, continuing with the same tactics against a team that knew how to play against us and the stubbornness not to do something about it. Should he be sacked, no but after the weekend and his post match comments, there's a large section who don't trust him anymore, if he left tomorrow I wouldn't bat an eyelid, apart from the very odd game his brand of football is turgid and industrial.

I think the people that don't trust him post cup final, never trusted him, if one game was going to sway it then you never had any confidence in him in the first place.

If he left, I'd be quite annoyed that we have let a manager go that's been one of our most successful in the modern era on the back of basically losing one game.

Every manager is a gamble, and we have one here that has done well so far and we can build on that, instead of once again tearing it all down and starting again.

[bingo70]

I definitely agree we struggle when teams sit in, but I think that's more about personnel than tactics.

Disagree.

We play counter attacking football. For the most part it’s been effective and we’re good at it, that’s why we finished 3rd.

You can’t play counter attacking football against teams happy to sit in though.

When you look at our home record it tends to suggest that rather than finding an alternative way to play in certain games we’ve just persevered with the same tactics regardless of who we are playing.

That’s a tactical flaw IMO.

[flash]

It is trolling. You can claim it’s not but plenty posters have replied to you about it and seen through it.

You can claim it’s not but you’ve spent the last few days trying to belittle posters to the point you’re blatantly making up stuff to try and help you do it.

I mentioned the Falkirk semi final as a big game, you then replied to me and said ‘so the Falkirk semi final isn’t a big game? Sound.’

Jeffers mentioned that we might finish third next season, you then declared that he/she refuses to acknowledge that we could finish third next season.

You’re clearly not thick. You’re not misinterpreting these posts by accident. You’re doing it to try and troll other posters.

There must come a time when even you think it's time to knock it on the head. Surely.

[matty_f]

It is trolling. You can claim it’s not but plenty posters have replied to you about it and seen through it.

You can claim it’s not but you’ve spent the last few days trying to belittle posters to the point you’re blatantly making up stuff to try and help you do it.

I mentioned the Falkirk semi final as a big game, you then replied to me and said ‘so the Falkirk semi final isn’t a big game? Sound.’

Jeffers mentioned that we might finish third next season, you then declared that he/she refuses to acknowledge that we could finish third next season.

You’re clearly not thick. You’re not misinterpreting these posts by accident. You’re doing it to try and troll other posters.

I acknowledged that I’d missed your post about Falkirk, that came after you had ignored it originally, so i think that’s making stuff up.

I’m not trying to belittle anyone, the points being made are selective and flawed.

Like i said, I’m sorry you haven’t understood. I’ll leave it there.

[calumhibee1]

There must come a time when even you think it's time to knock it on the head. Surely.

When that time comes I’ll be sure to do it. I’m not there yet though!

[flash]

Disagree.

We play counter attacking football. For the most part it’s been effective and we’re good at it, that’s why we finished 3rd.

You can’t play counter attacking football against teams happy to sit in though.

When you look at our home record it tends to suggest that rather than finding an alternative way to play in certain games we’ve just persevered with the same tactics regardless of who we are playing.

That’s a tactical flaw IMO.

To me it's a lack of options thing which needs urgently addressed.

[bingo70]

I think the people that don't trust him post cup final, never trusted him, if one game was going to sway it then you never had any confidence in him in the first place.

If he left, I'd be quite annoyed that we have let a manager go that's been one of our most successful in the modern era on the back of basically losing one game.

Every manager is a gamble, and we have one here that has done well so far and we can build on that, instead of once again tearing it all down and starting again.

I don’t trust a Jack Ross team in a big game now. That might change in time but if we play Hearts the first game of the season I feel pretty certain they will be more up for it than we will be.

I thought we were going to win on Saturday though.

I’m not sure if one person means your theory is wrong but I don’t think I agree with it.

[SlickShoes]

To me it's a lack of options thing which needs urgently addressed.

If you have watched any interview with Ron, this was a club level decision that was made to navigate COVID as best as possible and finish as high up the league as possible. They knew it was a risk, and that came at the cost of the cup because with our small squad we couldn't change it up to beat a team that just sit in and defend without any mistakes.

[flash]

When that time comes I’ll be sure to do it. I’m not there yet though!

Had a feeling you would say that.

[Stuart93]

To me it's a lack of options thing which needs urgently addressed.

Agree with that

It’s one thing to run with a smaller squad with more quality but we still need to have the option to change something from the bench.

[ahibby]

Jack Ross had one of the best post-war top flight records of all our managers in terms of win %.

He had us a game away from our best season in most of our lifetimes. There were polls before the game on Saturday asking if he could be our greatest ever Manager.

Yes, he fell short, and has done before, but he’s also bounced back before.

Sacking him because we reached but didn’t win a cup final, despite everything else he’s achieved would be the biggest case of cutting your nose off to spite your face since Brexit.

If you only view his failures and see that as enough to sack him, then you’re always going to be chasing managers out there club.

The very idea that he should be sacked, in my own humble opinion, I’d absolutely stupid to the biggest degree of stupidity i can think of.

Are you construing from my last post that I want him sacked or from my previous posts? I ask because I don't think I implied in my last that we should sack him, I only tried to give a balanced view that he has achieved and also had massive fails in some performances. I don't know a manager who could have done better so I wouldn't suggest he is sacked, I am simply moaning about the lack of inspiration he gave on Saturday and in some other matches we have all seen, this season. I expect much of the same next season and for as long as he is here. I don't want a knee jerk reaction from the club based on fans being disgruntled, any problem we see next season has to be put right over time. That does mean that I don't see us improving on this season, next season. If he proves me wrong, then fantastic. For the record, I don't want him sacked, because I don't know a manager available to us who could do any better over a season, or who could do better over next season. It is what it is.

[flash]

If you have watched any interview with Ron, this was a club level decision that was made to navigate COVID as best as possible and finish as high up the league as possible. They knew it was a risk, and that came at the cost of the cup because with our small squad we couldn't change it up to beat a team that just sit in and defend without any mistakes.
Yeah I agree. Still think we could have done better with the players we have but the lack of alternatives has hurt us badly here.

[blackpoolhibs]

Disagree.

We play counter attacking football. For the most part it’s been effective and we’re good at it, that’s why we finished 3rd.

You can’t play counter attacking football against teams happy to sit in though.

When you look at our home record it tends to suggest that rather than finding an alternative way to play in certain games we’ve just persevered with the same tactics regardless of who we are playing.

That’s a tactical flaw IMO.
I have seen this said that we are a counter attacking team a lot this season, and i really dont think we are. I think we have the ball most of the time against every club other than the bigots, although i've not seen the figures, i'd be very surprised if that was not the case.

And if that is right, we've done ok against teams that sit in apart from the obvious one.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/scottish-premiership/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/SC1. Edit, just found this.

It does not give you each game, but it does give you our possession stats over the season, and we are 3rd.

[bingo70]

To me it's a lack of options thing which needs urgently addressed.

Yeah, I took a huge tantrum on transfer deadline day, not for the first time I should add, as I couldn’t believe we let Gullane go (right choice) but not bring another forward in (bad choice).

For the most part my tantrum looked childish and unreasonable, again, not for the first time, however the final is exactly the reason I wanted another forward in that was different than what we already had. I thought we desperately needed either a big lump that’s good in the air we could throw on with 10 to go that we could fire high balls into, or a number 10 that could score from 30 yards out or even a mad ******* that was unpredictable as they didn’t know themselves what they were going to do.

As it turned out, we didn’t need that player for the league campaign, possibly because for the most part Doidge and Nisbet stayed fit. We still left ourselves short though.

Really interesting summer ahead as our squad was to small this season IMO.

[Brightside]

I have seen this said that we are a counter attacking team a lot this season, and i really dont think we are. I think we have the ball most of the time against every club other than the bigots, although i've not seen the figures, i'd be very surprised if that was not the case.

And if that is right, we've done ok against teams that sit in apart from the obvious one.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/scottish-premiership/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/SC1. Edit, just found this.

It does not give you each game, but it does give you our possession stats over the season, and we are 3rd.

We do have the ball but we suck teams in and then break through the gaps that appear when we stretch them. St Johnstone just ignore that and dont leave the gaps.

[SlickShoes]

Yeah I agree. Still think we could have done better with the players we have but the lack of alternatives has hurt us badly here.

I think we got pretty unlucky with injuries too and the way the Magennis signing has panned out, I think we all expected more from that but he never got going and it was never the time to throw him in either.

[flash]

I think we got pretty unlucky with injuries too and the way the Magennis signing has panned out, I think we all expected more from that but he never got going and it was never the time to throw him in either.

Magennis and Wright should have been our other options on Saturday. Personally I would have thrown them both on as every dog has its day.

[blackpoolhibs]

We do have the ball but we suck teams in and then break through the gaps that appear when we stretch them. St Johnstone just ignore that and dont leave the gaps.

Is that counter attacking?:confused:

[Stuart93]

We do have the ball but we suck teams in and then break through the gaps that appear when we stretch them. St Johnstone just ignore that and dont leave the gaps.

I’m not sure countless sidewards and backwards passes followed by a long ball was ever going to draw St Johnstone out. Unfortunately played right into their hands.

The only time we looked like we might create was when Murphy was carrying the ball forward, unfortunately there was no-one showing for him when he did though.

[madhatter]

I have seen this said that we are a counter attacking team a lot this season, and i really dont think we are. I think we have the ball most of the time against every club other than the bigots, although i've not seen the figures, i'd be very surprised if that was not the case.

And if that is right, we've done ok against teams that sit in apart from the obvious one.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/scottish-premiership/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/SC1. Edit, just found this.

It does not give you each game, but it does give you our possession stats over the season, and we are 3rd.

High possession doesn’t mean you aren’t a counter attack team. We keep a lot of meaningless possession between Hanlon and Porteous. No territory gain. A lot of Newell dropping deep and doing slow motion 360s before passing to other CB as well. When other team is losing to us we start picking out Boyle quicker, from deeper and he drives us forward at pace.

First goal matters against most teams but especially against us. If we go 1-0 down it is very difficult for us to come back.

[BoomtownHibees]

I have seen this said that we are a counter attacking team a lot this season, and i really dont think we are. I think we have the ball most of the time against every club other than the bigots, although i've not seen the figures, i'd be very surprised if that was not the case.

And if that is right, we've done ok against teams that sit in apart from the obvious one.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/scottish-premiership/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/SC1. Edit, just found this.

It does not give you each game, but it does give you our possession stats over the season, and we are 3rd.

It’s alright having the ball more than the opposition but it’s what you do with it that counts. I know that sounds pretty obvious but I would hazard a guess that our centre halfs have more touches of the ball than any other player on the park. Again, that’s fine if it’s to drag the other team out and up the park a bit, however what we do is square pass after square pass and then if the other team haven’t created any gaps for us to exploit, it’s a long, diagonal ball from Hanlon trying to pick out Boyle or Mcginn on the other side of the park and we lose the ball.

[Hibbyradge]

Disagree.

We play counter attacking football. For the most part it’s been effective and we’re good at it, that’s why we finished 3rd.

You can’t play counter attacking football against teams happy to sit in though.

When you look at our home record it tends to suggest that rather than finding an alternative way to play in certain games we’ve just persevered with the same tactics regardless of who we are playing.

That’s a tactical flaw IMO.

I think it's because we don't have the players to radically change our system and that if we try to do that with the current personnel, it makes us more vulnerable.

Our most creative midfielder was diagnosed with a serious heart condition which many people, including the player himself, thought would end his career.

We don't have much width on the left so it's difficult to pull their defence apart to make room for the strikers so we play to our strengths.

Those are tactical decisions and they're what has taken us to third place. Unfortunately, the team is still a work in progress so it has its weaknesses, but if our players had taken their chances against St Johnstone, we'd have won both Hampden games.

[ahibby]

I have seen this said that we are a counter attacking team a lot this season, and i really dont think we are. I think we have the ball most of the time against every club other than the bigots, although i've not seen the figures, i'd be very surprised if that was not the case.

And if that is right, we've done ok against teams that sit in apart from the obvious one.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/scottish-premiership/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/SC1. Edit, just found this.

It does not give you each game, but it does give you our possession stats over the season, and we are 3rd.

Possession doesn't give a true reflection. St J has built up limited success on allowing other teams possession and they have done so for many years, it's become an art form. Conversely when they wanted to on Saturday they won a lot of ball in midfield, something that Hibs are not very good at, relying on the front three finishing. With forty odd goals between them this season, why not but not many of those goals have come from us winning the second ball in midfield. Does that matter though when we finish third and have the best goal difference in the league outside of the old firm? It might only matter when it comes to those one of big games such as in cups.

[blackpoolhibs]

It’s alright having the ball more than the opposition but it’s what you do with it that counts. I know that sounds pretty obvious but I would hazard a guess that our centre halfs have more touches of the ball than any other player on the park. Again, that’s fine if it’s to drag the other team out and up the park a bit, however what we do is square pass after square pass and then if the other team haven’t created any gaps for us to exploit, it’s a long, diagonal ball from Hanlon trying to pick out Boyle or Mcginn on the other side of the park and we lose the ball.

It must have worked at some point during the season though?

[Allez Hibs]

So Jack Ross has played 23 games regarded as big games - Aberdeen Celtic Hearts Rangers, Semi Finals and a Final.

Played 23
Won 5 - 22%
Lost 14 - 61%
Drawn 4 - 17%

Discuss.

[matty_f]

Are you construing from my last post that I want him sacked or from my previous posts? I ask because I don't think I implied in my last that we should sack him, I only tried to give a balanced view that he has achieved and also had massive fails in some performances. I don't know a manager who could have done better so I wouldn't suggest he is sacked, I am simply moaning about the lack of inspiration he gave on Saturday and in some other matches we have all seen, this season. I expect much of the same next season and for as long as he is here. I don't want a knee jerk reaction from the club based on fans being disgruntled, any problem we see next season has to be put right over time. That does mean that I don't see us improving on this season, next season. If he proves me wrong, then fantastic. For the record, I don't want him sacked, because I don't know a manager available to us who could do any better over a season, or who could do better over next season. It is what it is.
No, sorry - could have been clearer in my post, i didn’t think you wanted him sacked at all. :aok:

[blackpoolhibs]

Possession doesn't give a true reflection. St J has built up limited success on allowing other teams possession and they have done so for many years, it's become an art form. Conversely when they wanted to on Saturday they won a lot of ball in midfield, something that Hibs are not very good at, relying on the front three finishing. With forty odd goals between them this season, why not but not many of those goals have come from us winning the second ball in midfield. Does that matter though when we finish third and have the best goal difference in the league outside of the old firm? It might only matter when it comes to those one of big games such as in cups.

:agree:

Good points, and you wont be surprised to hear i dont rate our midfield that much, well one of them. And we have had to squeeze round pegs into square holes for quite a lot of this season which has not helped.

[Brightside]

Is that counter attacking?:confused:

Not strictly counter attacking no. :greengrin But its the method we use against the "lesser" teams.

[Brightside]

I’m not sure countless sidewards and backwards passes followed by a long ball was ever going to draw St Johnstone out. Unfortunately played right into their hands.

The only time we looked like we might create was when Murphy was carrying the ball forward, unfortunately there was no-one showing for him when he did though.

Totally agree. We needed so much more from our midfield. We got nothing and we resorted as we do in these cases to just lumping it.

[BoomtownHibees]

It must have worked at some point during the season though?

Of course. I think it shows our struggles at home and in particular against teams that sit men a bit deeper and behind the ball. Add in our record when we go a goal down and I think it’s an issue

[Since90+2]

So Jack Ross has played 23 games regarded as big games - Aberdeen Celtic Hearts Rangers, Semi Finals and a Final.

Played 23
Won 5 - 22%
Lost 14 - 61%
Drawn 4 - 17%

Discuss.

Does look pretty bad to be fair when it's spelt out like that.

[blackpoolhibs]

Not strictly counter attacking no. :greengrin But its the method we use against the "lesser" teams.

We dont do it that well, but it's the same way Man City play and i'd struggle to find a person in the whole world that calls their style counter attacking. :greengrin

[Jay]

We can all either put them on ignore, report them or stop replying to them and giving them the oxygen they crave. There’s plenty of decent debate and decent posters still around to engage in. The boards would be a better place if they were left without people to argue with.

It feels like the toxic minority are referenced as many times as they post their toxicity. It all becomes a bit boring and self fulfilling IMO.


Spot on. :top marks

[matty_f]

There's a contradiction in there. He got the tactics wrong and was unwilling to change things when everyone could see it wasn't working. Surely a good manager employs a flexible approach and can respond to the way a game is panning out?

Saturdays dismal performance was less to do with team selection, as you say there wasn't that much to debate, and more to do with our clueless strategy and managerial inability to change the game plan.

FWIW, despite the deleted post, I was agreeing with your points in general and just saying that i think despite that, the players application/attitude meant that i think we’d have lost anyway.

Not sure why that provoked the response it did, to be honest.

[matty_f]

I think the people that don't trust him post cup final, never trusted him, if one game was going to sway it then you never had any confidence in him in the first place.

If he left, I'd be quite annoyed that we have let a manager go that's been one of our most successful in the modern era on the back of basically losing one game.

Every manager is a gamble, and we have one here that has done well so far and we can build on that, instead of once again tearing it all down and starting again.

Good post.

[calumhibee1]

So Jack Ross has played 23 games regarded as big games - Aberdeen Celtic Hearts Rangers, Semi Finals and a Final.

Played 23
Won 5 - 22%
Lost 14 - 61%
Drawn 4 - 17%

Discuss.

This shows why, in the most simplest of terms, without an improvement in these games there’ll always be a difficulty in really thinking Ross is all that. It’s an extremely poor record when it’s written down in black and white like that, especially when you’re the 3rd best team in the country.

[Allez Hibs]

We dont do it that well, but it's the same way Man City play and i'd struggle to find a person in the whole world that calls their style counter attacking. :greengrin

I'd say its more akin to Mourinho Football.

[matty_f]

Totally agree. We needed so much more from our midfield. We got nothing and we resorted as we do in these cases to just lumping it.

I think the forwards need to take some of the blame here as well, they were static - when you’re getting marked you need movement and you need to try and pull the defenders out of position. The amount of times there was no pass on for the midfield was criminal.

[matty_f]

This shows why, in the most simplest of terms, without an improvement in these games there’ll always be a difficulty in really thinking Ross is all that. It’s an extremely poor record when it’s written down in black and white like that, especially when you’re the 3rd best team in the country.

With respect, it shows that if you only use selective stats you can paint whatever picture you want.

Jack Ross is the first manager i can remember having a specific “big games” target set by the support.

[calumhibee1]

With respect, it shows that if you only use selective stats you can paint whatever picture you want.

Jack Ross is the first manager i can remember having a specific “big games” target set by the support.

Of course you can. These games mean the most to the fans though. With a bad record in them, lots of fans, myself included, won’t be able to take to him.

Wins against Hamilton and Ross County are nice and all that, but they’re instantly forgettable. His record in those games needs to improve or he’ll always have people unable to take to him. This season is evidence of that.

We can argue all day whether that’s right or not but it’s definitely the case.

[SlickShoes]

This shows why, in the most simplest of terms, without an improvement in these games there’ll always be a difficulty in really thinking Ross is all that. It’s an extremely poor record when it’s written down in black and white like that, especially when you’re the 3rd best team in the country.

Remember when we used to say "we need to consistently beat the teams below us"? well we have pretty much done that, so now we have ti improve and beat the teams above us more often, but you have to give people time.

You finished 3rd which only 3 other modern era hibs managers have managed, but your big games stat wasn't good enough so you are now fired.

[Allez Hibs]

Of course you can. These games mean the most to the fans though. With a bad record in them, lots of fans, myself included, won’t be able to take to him.

Wins against Hamilton and Ross County are nice and all that, but they’re instantly forgettable. His record in those games needs to improve or he’ll always have people unable to take to him. This season is evidence of that.

Exactly this.

Its when you take into account the teams we played to get to each of the three semi finals. A remarkable run of fortune with the draws.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'd say its more akin to Mourinho Football.

There's a surprise, did he get the sack when Spurs were 3rd?

[Hibrandenburg]

Disagree.

We play counter attacking football. For the most part it’s been effective and we’re good at it, that’s why we finished 3rd.

You can’t play counter attacking football against teams happy to sit in though.

When you look at our home record it tends to suggest that rather than finding an alternative way to play in certain games we’ve just persevered with the same tactics regardless of who we are playing.

That’s a tactical flaw IMO.

I don't think you and Hibbyradge are too far apart, what you describe as tactical, he sees it like I do as more a personnel problem. We just don't have a fit player capable of opening up teams that sit in. We need a player like McGinn or Zemmama who can run at defences and disrupt their positional organisation. Hopefully Ross can address this before the start of next season.

[jeffers]

Of course you can. These games mean the most to the fans though. With a bad record in them, lots of fans, myself included, won’t be able to take to him.

Wins against Hamilton and Ross County are nice and all that, but they’re instantly forgettable. His record in those games needs to improve or he’ll always have people unable to take to him. This season is evidence of that.

We can argue all day whether that’s right or not but it’s definitely the case.

It’s also about what matters more to you as fan, getting 3rd place is a great achievement and shows a level of consistency, but I’d gladly have swapped that for being entertained and a cup win. Of course the ideal is we go on to achieve all of that.

[Northernhibee]

This shows why, in the most simplest of terms, without an improvement in these games there’ll always be a difficulty in really thinking Ross is all that. It’s an extremely poor record when it’s written down in black and white like that, especially when you’re the 3rd best team in the country.

We were a long way from being even in the top six teams in the country when he joined us.

[Allez Hibs]

It’s also about what matters more to you as fan, getting 3rd place is a great achievement and shows a level of consistency, but I’d gladly have swapped that for being entertained and a cup win. Of course the ideal is we go on to achieve all of that.

Correct.

Yes it is all about what matters most to the fans, you would think the majority of fans would rather have won the Scottish Cup than finish 3rd. I think that's the disappointment everyone is feeling just now.

[blackpoolhibs]

It’s also about what matters more to you as fan, getting 3rd place is a great achievement and shows a level of consistency, but I’d gladly have swapped that for being entertained and a cup win. Of course the ideal is we go on to achieve all of that.
I'd have preferred a cup win to finishing 3rd now, i'd imagine most of us would want that. What i would say is qualifying for Europe gives us a better chance of sustained success, and with that might come the odd cup win.

[Peevemor]

For me it's the height of nonsense that, on a hibs supporters' forum, people get criticised for sticking up for the team - especially after a very decent season.

It's not wanting to defend the manager or the players that makes me sometimes disagree with people. It's the simple fact that I disagree with what they're saying.

However, on a Hibs supporters' forum we shouldn't be told to ignore people that constantly criticise the club. WTF is that all about? And people complain about the players lacking fight?

And report them? For what? Wettting the bed isn't against forum rules from what I can see.

[Stuart93]

With respect, it shows that if you only use selective stats you can paint whatever picture you want.

Jack Ross is the first manager i can remember having a specific “big games” target set by the support.

Surely it can’t be argued that the games against Hearts, Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hampden appearances are considered big games?

That’s not just for Jack Ross to have a go at him, that’s surely been the case for the majority of Hibs’ existence under any manager?

It’s selective in that these are the games that are considered big games in a season and they’ve been selected to show Jack Ross’ record in these games. I’m not sure how anyone can argue with that.

[blackpoolhibs]

Surely it can’t be argued that the games against Hearts, Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hampden appearances are considered big games?

That’s not just for Jack Ross to have a go at him, that’s surely been the case for the majority of Hibs’ existence under any manager?

It’s selective in that these are the games that are considered big games in a season. I’m not sure how anyone can argue with that.
Did you not say Aberdeen were in turmoil, and a poor side? Surely we only beat a poor side in turmoil then, and hardly constitutes a big game?

[calumhibee1]

Surely it can’t be argued that the games against Hearts, Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hampden appearances are considered big games?

That’s not just for Jack Ross to have a go at him, that’s surely been the case for the majority of Hibs’ existence under any manager?

It’s selective in that these are the games that are considered big games in a season and they’ve been selected to show Jack Ross’ record in these games. I’m not sure how anyone can argue with that.

It’s the same at every football team the world over. Of course it’s being selective. It doesn’t make it wrong though. Every team has games they consider bigger than others, whether that’s teams with similar budgets, city rivals or cup semi finals and finals or European games. It’s not some new concept that’s exclusive to Jack Ross or exclusive to Hibs.

[Stuart93]

Did you not say Aberdeen were in turmoil, and a poor side? Surely we only beat a poor side in turmoil then, and hardly constitutes a big game?

They are a poor side, a really poor side this season but it’s still a big game regardless because it’s Aberdeen.

Let’s not get pedantic now. There’s obvious expectations but games against those 4 teams will always be considered as big games and for as long as I can remember they always have been, not only since JR was appointed.

[jeffers]

I'd have preferred a cup win to finishing 3rd now, i'd imagine most of us would want that. What i would say is qualifying for Europe gives us a better chance of sustained success, and with that might come the odd cup win.

Agreed bh. The aim should definitely be to qualify for Europe on a regular basis. The cups are a bit of a lottery. Unlike league positions which I believe are arrived at on merit, the best teams, as we’ve seen this season, don’t always win the cups. It’s so frustrating that we had excellent opportunities to win at least one and came up woefully short.

[Skol]

Jack Ross took over when we were in danger of getting drawn into a relegation battle and but for the season being ended early looked on course to get us into the top 6. This was followed with securing our first third place finish in 15 years. In Cups we have reached 3 semi finals and one of those led to a final appearance. Jack doesnt have a great record against the 'top' teams.

In recent Years only Mowbray and McLeish have secured a third place finish as far as I recall. Alex Miller may also have done so once. Way back in the mid 90s. Aside from McLeish and Lennon (and Stubbs to an extent) we have pretty much always had a poor record against the 'top' teams. Only Collins and Stubbs have delivered trophies.

What makes people think that replacing Ross will improve our record?

[blackpoolhibs]

Agreed bh. The aim should definitely be to qualify for Europe on a regular basis. The cups are a bit of a lottery. Unlike league positions which I believe are arrived at on merit, the best teams, as we’ve seen this season, don’t always win the cups. It’s so frustrating that we had excellent opportunities to win at least one and came up woefully short.
:agree:

[matty_f]

Surely it can’t be argued that the games against Hearts, Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hampden appearances are considered big games?

That’s not just for Jack Ross to have a go at him, that’s surely been the case for the majority of Hibs’ existence under any manager?

It’s selective in that these are the games that are considered big games in a season and they’ve been selected to show Jack Ross’ record in these games. I’m not sure how anyone can argue with that.

I didn’t say that they weren’t big games? You’re arguing a point I’m not making.

I can’t remember reading these posts about other managers’ big game records.

[Stuart93]

I didn’t say that they weren’t big games? You’re arguing a point I’m not making.

But you say JR is the only manager you remember having big game targets? I don’t think that’s true

Managers are always judged at us on their results against these teams in particular. Maybe less so against the old firm but definitely against hearts and Aberdeen as they’re considered, more often than not, our direct rivals in terms of league position.

It’s a record I really hope we can improve on next season. The wins against hearts and Aberdeen away from home have been good highlights from JR’s time here for me.

[degenerated]

It might be be understandable from a human perspective if he had lashed out, but it would have been weak of him, and very poor management. Public humiliation isn't a skill recommended in any leadership manual I've read.

Alex Ferguson was famous for his "hairdryer treatment", but that was done in private. On the few occasions that I can remember him being openly critical of players, it was measured and precise.

Jose Mourinho resorts to doing that every time he starts to get found out and it unfailingly leads to a decline in performances and his inevitable departure.

I remember Yogi Hughes slapping Makalamby across the head as they were coming off the pitch after the keeper had made a mistake that cost us the game. It was a hard slap, but it was done for the fans benefit and Hughes went down in my estimation for doing that.

What good would it really have done if Ross had "slaughtered" his team in the interviews? Players would start to defend themselves and point fingers at each other and the manager. It certainly wouldn't encourage players who are considering their contract options to stay.

And would it have placated the fans? Not a chance.

Ross is intelligent and strong enough mentally to take the heat because he knows it's best for the club.Hughes behaved like that as a player as well, he was forever blaming Michael Renwick for his own shortcomings, eventually I think it took its toll on Renwick as he never achieved the level his ability suggested he could.



Sent from my CPH2009 using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

But you say JR is the only manager you remember having big game targets? I don’t think that’s true

Managers are always judged at us on their results against these teams in particular. Maybe less so against the old firm but definitely against hearts and Aberdeen as they’re considered, more often than not, our direct rivals in terms of league position.

It’s a record I really hope we can improve on next season. The wins against hearts and Aberdeen away from home have been good highlights from JR’s time here for me.
I edited my post, i can’t remember any other Manager having this scrutiny on big games.

[blackpoolhibs]

But you say JR is the only manager you remember having big game targets? I don’t think that’s true

Managers are always judged at us on their results against these teams in particular. Maybe less so against the old firm but definitely against hearts and Aberdeen as they’re considered, more often than not, our direct rivals in terms of league position.

Of course he is, i dont remember anyone mentioning these big game targets for any other manager in my puff. especially when they quote games he's had for other clubs in other country's leagues, and even in Scotland when he was manager at Alloa and St Mirren, he never once looked like winning any cups.

In fact i remember people on here having excuse after excuse at Heckingbottoms shambles attempt at management. It was a lot quieter when we never won many games, and had a relegation fight to look forward to.

[BoomtownHibees]

I edited my post, i can’t remember any other Manager having this scrutiny on big games.

Maybe the rest of them didn’t have as bad a record as JR in these games?

[Skol]

I edited my post, i can’t remember any other Manager having this scrutiny on big games.

If anyone has time to do a similar analysis across all managers it would be interesting to see how we compare. My guess would be that the record Ross has in these games is not significantly worse than others and may also be comparable.

[calumhibee1]

Maybe the rest of them didn’t have as bad a record as JR in these games?

It was certainly a criticism of Heckingbottom when he was here. He was regularly criticised for being too cautious and not laying a glove on the OF.

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe the rest of them didn’t have as bad a record as JR in these games?

The point is, no-one looked to find out.

[calumhibee1]

If anyone has time to do a similar analysis across all managers it would be interesting to see how we compare. My guess would be that the record Ross has in these games is not significantly worse than others and may also be comparable.

Someone posted with regards to Stubbs and Ross (I want to say Callum62 or CallumLaidlaw but I may be wrong). Stubbs came out on top in every one of them.

Not sure about others though.

[blackpoolhibs]

If anyone has time to do a similar analysis across all managers it would be interesting to see how we compare. My guess would be that the record Ross has in these games is not significantly worse than others and may also be comparable.
Eddie Turnbull had us pumped in straight sets, 6-1 6-2 6-3, Was he manager in all those games? :wink:

[bingo70]

I edited my post, i can’t remember any other Manager having this scrutiny on big games.

Alex Millers tenure will largely be associated with his terrible record in derbies.

Not exactly the same thing but there’s comparables.

When I hear his name I automatically associate that with a boring team, a boring manager that had an awful record in derbies. The same guy won a trophy, qualified for Europe multiple times and built teams within exciting players like Jackson, crunchie and O’Neill.

Performances in the games that matter the most to the supporters are important. Pretending they’ve got the same weighting as beating a Motherwell or a Kilmarnock just isn’t the case, even if they’re just worth the same 3 points.

[madhatter]

I edited my post, i can’t remember any other Manager having this scrutiny on big games.

Expectations are higher now, both in the club and in the fan base.

We will need to start beating Hearts, Aberdeen, Celtic and Rangers with some frequency to solidify “best of the rest” status. Especially since we cannot reliably beat Motherwell, St Johnstone etc. Maybe that’ll come next season.

I’d be happy to consistently beat St Johnstone at the moment. No disrespect to them but if I settle on that I’ll have low ambition for Hibs.

[660]

Someone posted with regards to Stubbs and Ross. Stubbs came out on top in every one of them.

Not sure about others though.

JRs team would probably beat banter era huns and I don’t think Stubbs played Celtic.

[MWHIBBIES]

So Jack Ross has played 23 games regarded as big games - Aberdeen Celtic Hearts Rangers, Semi Finals and a Final.

Played 23
Won 5 - 22%
Lost 14 - 61%
Drawn 4 - 17%

Discuss.

Whats the record like in the past 6 months?

[Northernhibee]

I didn’t say that they weren’t big games? You’re arguing a point I’m not making.

I can’t remember reading these posts about other managers’ big game records.

I remember reading lots of posts about Stubbs record against the “pishy wee teams”. Lennon didn’t have much of a better record against them but didn’t get pulled up on it and now we have a manager who does well against bottom six sides and builds a foundation for the season it feels like the goalposts are being moved again.

[scoopyboy]

So Jack Ross has played 23 games regarded as big games - Aberdeen Celtic Hearts Rangers, Semi Finals and a Final.

Played 23
Won 5 - 22%
Lost 14 - 61%
Drawn 4 - 17%

Discuss.

A very good point for discussion AH.

Those figures don't look good but how do they compare with other Hibs managers?

Off the top of my head I don't think many will come up smelling of roses.

[Heisenberg]

Someone posted with regards to Stubbs and Ross (I want to say Callum62 or CallumLaidlaw but I may be wrong). Stubbs came out on top in every one of them.

Not sure about others though.

He did. Found it on the PM board.

“JR v Hearts - 1 win in 3 - 33%
AS v Hearts - 2 wins in 6 - 33% ( the first of those 2 wins were after hearts had won the league)

JR v Aberdeen - 3 wins in 6 - 50% including our first win up in Aberdeen in 10 years.
AS as you say won 1 out of 1.

Rangers I’ll give you, but the Rangers of now is a very different beast to the one back then.

As for the brand of football, I remember plenty games of football under stubbs where we struggled to break teams down and done a lot of sideways passing.

As I say, I was a fan of Stubbs even prior to the 21st May, but folk seem desperate to downplay some of Jack Ross’s achievements for some reason.”

Only one that isn’t close is Rangers, however the sides Stubbs faced were nowhere near the level of where Rangers have been since JR arrived. He also only played Aberdeen once in a cup game.

[calumhibee1]

JRs team would probably beat banter era huns and I don’t think Stubbs played Celtic.

He didn’t play Celtic. He also only played Aberdeen once. There’s not really ever going to be a like for like comparison with any managers though I wouldn’t think.

Points per game though, if you forget about the fact some were cup games and assume points were given in cup games, Stubbs record against Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen and in semi finals and finals was better in every one of them.

[Skol]

Someone posted with regards to Stubbs and Ross (I want to say Callum62 or CallumLaidlaw but I may be wrong). Stubbs came out on top in every one of them.

Not sure about others though.

Stubbs managed us in division one so wouldnt have played against celtic or aberdeen.

[superfurryhibby]

The point is, no-one looked to find out.

I think they did. Every Hibs manager gets intense scrutiny on here, Ross is no different.

It would be nothing short of a miracle if supporters weren't questioning the managers credentials after that travesty of a game on Saturday. Even more so when you consider we lost an awful semi final to the same team just a couple of months ago.

Even if you support the guy, which I by and large did, you have to recognise where the criticism is coming from?

[calumhibee1]

Stubbs managed us in division one so wouldnt have played against celtic or aberdeen.

He did play Aberdeen but he didn’t play Celtic. As such, comparisons with our record v Celtic can’t really be made.

[ahibby]

Eddie Turnbull had us pumped in straight sets, 6-1 6-2 6-3, Was he manager in all those games? :wink:

He also had us beating Celtic in a league cup final, and Dryborough cup (which was still there to be won). Took us to a final against Rangers which took them two replays to finally win, so drew the cup final against Rangers twice.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Whats the record like in the past 6 months?

Out of interest what’s the record like if excluding the old firm?

If we’re excluding the bottom end we should exclude the top end to give a more representative sample.

[superfurryhibby]

Eddie Turnbull had us pumped in straight sets, 6-1 6-2 6-3, Was he manager in all those games? :wink:

Eddie Turnbull wasn't no. It was Willie McFarlane in the 6-2 League Cup final.

In between 6-1 and 6-3, he delivered a 2-1, 5-3 and 1-0 in cup finals.

[660]

He didn’t play Celtic. He also only played Aberdeen once. There’s not really ever going to be a like for like comparison with any managers though I wouldn’t think.

Points per game though, if you forget about the facts and assume points were given in cup games, Stubbs record against Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen and in semi finals and finals was better in every one of them.

It did feel like Stubbs had a decent record in bigger games. He did against Hearts for sure.

I’d imagine if the playoffs are included it’s not so great. He did fail on a lot of big occasions. He lost a semi final and final to worse teams than the current St Johnstone team.

[calumhibee1]

Out of interest what’s the record like if excluding the old firm?

If we’re excluding the bottom end we should exclude the top end to give a more representative sample.

If by bottom end you mean teams outside the big four then they’re being excluded because they’re not big games.

Whether you agree with it or not, Hibs themselves see the OF as a big game so I’m not sure why we’d exclude that.

[wookie70]

I edited my post, i can’t remember any other Manager having this scrutiny on big games.

Neither can I but I can't remember any manager beating the teams we expect to beat so regularly and doing relatively poorly against the teams we really want to beat because of rivalry, history or silverware. I remember the Horgan Derby for instance but if you asked me who Gogic had scored against I'd have much more difficulty remembering. Fenlon a similar record where he did ok(Ross has done better) against the sides we expect to beat but struggled in the really big games(he wasn't too bad against Celtc and Hearts). He left because of those very big games and the fact they were difficult to erase from fan's memory. He was most certainly judged on big games even though he did OK in the big league games. Some of the atrocious performances this year particularly against St Johnstone have felt very like the Malmo and 2012 final to me as we have simply not performed. I have no issue getting beat when we look to have made an effort and have tried to get back in games but that hasn't been the case in quite a few games and not only big ones. Ross has done really well with a pragmatic brand of football. As long as we finish 3rd or 4th he will be very safe in his role. However, fans are far less forgiving when they aren't entertained and when the games that are instantly remembered aren't done so fondly. He will know that though and I think he will start to address it just as he has with the Goalkeeper and why Jackson and Cadden joined to boost our midfield thrust. He looks to have an eye for a player and I hope that he continues, as he has up till now, to improve us.

[Callum_62]

Maybe the rest of them didn’t have as bad a record as JR in these games?And yet almost none of the done as well with league position

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[calumhibee1]

It did feel like Stubbs had a decent record in bigger games. He did against Hearts for sure.

I’d imagine if the playoffs are included it’s not so great. He did fail on a lot of big occasions. He lost a semi final and final to worse teams than the current St Johnstone team.

To be fair I actually forgot all about the playoffs as its obviously something that’s not being mentioned in terms of JR. His record in the playoffs was poor.

Stubbs record against Hearts was pretty good. His record against Rangers was exceptional and his record at Hampden overall was also pretty good.

[Danderhall Hibs]

If by bottom end you mean teams outside the big four then they’re being excluded because they’re not big games.

Whether you agree with it or not, Hibs themselves see the OF as a big game so I’m not sure why we’d exclude that.

The other games become bigger due to the “wee games”. Aberdeen wouldn’t be a big game if we were bottom 6?

If you’re chopping one end of a sample of the stats are skewed.

[calumhibee1]

The other games become bigger due to the “wee games”. Aberdeen wouldn’t be a big game if we were bottom 6?

If you’re chopping one end of a sample of the stats are skewed.

There’s really no point in debating the big game thing again.

Most folk, Hibs included, would point to the big games being the OF, Hearts, Aberdeen, semis, finals and Europe. And that’s regardless of whether we are top or bottom 6.

[BoomtownHibees]

The other games become bigger due to the “wee games”. Aberdeen wouldn’t be a big game if we were bottom 6?

If you’re chopping one end of a sample of the stats are skewed.

The argument is specific to what most folk would class as “bigger” games, not his overall record. So not sure why you would want to take out the games that are actually being discussed

[jeffers]

While folk may have slight variations in their views on what constitutes a “big” game I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a consensus that cup semi finals and finals are. Ross has had 4 of them, lost 3 and won only one. Two of the losses were pathetic capitulations, the other a defeat against our biggest rivals who had barely kicked a ball prior to playing us.

I don’t think Ross is being judged unfairly on these games, while at the same time he’s being praised for our league position. If you turn up for these games and lose its disappointing, if you fail to turn up it’s a different story.

[Skol]

He did play Aberdeen but he didn’t play Celtic. As such, comparisons with our record v Celtic can’t really be made.

I don't recall the Aberdeen game but assume we played them once in a cup tie over Stubbs 2 seasons in charge.

While Stubbs did have a good record in the big games against Hearts and Rangers and won a cup final. He also lost another winnable cup final and failed to get us promoted from the 2nd tier. This suggests he had problems against the other teams.

I do think that Ross has questions to answer, but given his overall record I think it would be foolish to get rid of him at this stage.

[SlickShoes]

People comparing the Stubbs v Rangers and Ross v Rangers like they are even remotely comparable are hilarious, as is including 1 win against Aberdeen to fit the agenda as well.

To compare stats they have to have a similar sample size or it’s worthless.

Stubbs is the outlier statistically as our manager because he managed us for two seasons in the lower league where we did pretty well but still didn’t get promoted.

I also can’t believe that someone compares losing 1-0 to St Johnstone to Fenlons 5-1 and then 9-1.

[Hibbyradge]

I think they did. Every Hibs manager gets intense scrutiny on here, Ross is no different.

It would be nothing short of a miracle if supporters weren't questioning the managers credentials after that travesty of a game on Saturday. Even more so when you consider we lost an awful semi final to the same team just a couple of months ago.

Even if you support the guy, which I by and large did, you have to recognise where the criticism is coming from?

I do understand and it's predictable, but it's also skewed.

Had we failed to get to the final, but finished third, the criticism of Ross wouldn't be as vitriolic. In a way, it's the improvement in the club that has become the catalyst for the unhappiness.

I don't think I've ever seen criticism of the sort JR is getting either.

Folk are saying that he can't win big games, his interviews are poor, he's hopeless tactically and he can't change the game plan, but they hide by staying that they don't want him sacked! :hilarious

I thought all of those things about Hopeless Heckingbottom but I wanted him emptied. I disagree with sacking JR, but it's like some folk are being mealy-mouthed or snide. Bizarre imo.

As an aside, I think games like Football Manager or whatever it's called have a lot to answer for. Everyone is a tactical genius these days. (Maybe I should buy a copy...)

[Skol]

While folk may have slight variations in their views on what constitutes a “big” game I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a consensus that cup semi finals and finals are. Ross has had 4 of them, lost 3 and won only one. Two of the losses were pathetic capitulations, the other a defeat against our biggest rivals who had barely kicked a ball prior to playing us.

I don’t think Ross is being judged unfairly on these games, while at the same time he’s being praised for our league position. If you turn up for these games and lose its disappointing, if you fail to turn up it’s a different story.

Other managers didnt even manage to get us to semi finals and finals - did that mean they were better because they didnt lose them?

[BoomtownHibees]

I don't recall the Aberdeen game but assume we played them once in a cup tie over Stubbs 2 seasons in charge.

While Stubbs did have a good record in the big games against Hearts and Rangers and won a cup final. He also lost another winnable cup final and failed to get us promoted from the 2nd tier. This suggests he had problems against the other teams.

I do think that Ross has questions to answer, but given his overall record I think it would be foolish to get rid of him at this stage.

How can you forget the Aberdeen game that delivered the best goal ever scored?

[Allez Hibs]

Whats the record like in the past 6 months?

Since Boxing Day

Played 9
Won 3
Lost 5
Drawn 1

Since Halloween

Played 12
Won 3
Lost 7
Drawn 2

[Danderhall Hibs]

There’s really no point in debating the big game thing again.
.

Absolutely agree but a vocal minority keep asking about it while moving the goalposts.

[blackpoolhibs]

Eddie Turnbull wasn't no. It was Willie McFarlane in the 6-2 League Cup final.

In between 6-1 and 6-3, he delivered a 2-1, 5-3 and 1-0 in cup finals.

I know,:wink: but imagine us losing two cup finals to 6, imagine the foaming at the mouth that would cause now. :greengrin They were the best team i ever watched at Hibs, shame it ended so bad for Eddie. :boo hoo:

[calumhibee1]

I don't recall the Aberdeen game but assume we played them once in a cup tie over Stubbs 2 seasons in charge.

While Stubbs did have a good record in the big games against Hearts and Rangers and won a cup final. He also lost another winnable cup final and failed to get us promoted from the 2nd tier. This suggests he had problems against the other teams.

I do think that Ross has questions to answer, but given his overall record I think it would be foolish to get rid of him at this stage.

Don’t think many would argue with your last statement :agree:

[calumhibee1]

Absolutely agree but a vocal minority keep asking about it while moving the goalposts.

Ok.

[Skol]

How can you forget the Aberdeen game that delivered the best goal ever scored?

Ah, if you said Malonga I would have known but didnt tie that to Stubbs being manager

[Danderhall Hibs]

The argument is specific to what most folk would class as “bigger” games, not his overall record. So not sure why you would want to take out the games that are actually being discussed

I can’t keep up with what’s a big game - feels like when we win one the criteria changes - Hearts had a week off before we played them, Aberdeen were poor, it was just Dundee united etc.

Statistically we’d have been better losing that penalty shootout to Motherwell (not a big game).

What’s our all time record vs the OF? Just for comparison.

[Vault Boy]

I think, to some extent, we've been a victim of our own success. The late runs in the cups brought with it an understandable expectation of achievement from the support, when the truth is - the team is far from the finished article and probably isn't quite good enough to have gone so far in all these competitions.

Hearts at Hampden, a League Cup semi with no OF involved, and a Scottish Cup Final v St Johnstone - these are all very rare occurrences in their own right, so the fact that they happened to all fall into our lap this year, when we are truthfully in the midst of a transition period, is a double edged sword. Without question, the team failed this test, the nature of cup competitions in this country means that this is the most memorable and potent aspect of this season, rightly or wrongly it's what most of us will hold on to.

Jack Ross took over with us hovering around the relegation zone. Since then we've pushed well away from there and managed to secure a very firm 3rd place finish, bagging Europe too. We've achieved a record number of away wins, and nearly matched our top flight points record. We've managed to buy or develop 2/3 really saleable assets, meaning we'll be in a strong financial position compared to the rest of the teams below us. That level of progress is not to be disregarded or overlooked here, to do so would be complacency of the highest order.

The upshot is I'm confident. The final really pissed me off, like more than any Hibs game in many, many years, but when I take a step back I see enough progress to have full confidence in Jack Ross, Ron Gordon, and Graeme Mathie. I've got a feeling this transfer window will be used to improve us in a lot in key areas. If we can do this successfully, whilst mitigating our losses as much as possible, I think next year could be special.

Can Jack Ross win more derbies, games at Hampden, and sneak some against the OF? I'm not sure, but if he's able to build a better, stronger squad - I think he's got a considerable chance. A chance he has demonstrably and undoubtedly earned.

[jeffers]

I don't recall the Aberdeen game but assume we played them once in a cup tie over Stubbs 2 seasons in charge.

While Stubbs did have a good record in the big games against Hearts and Rangers and won a cup final. He also lost another winnable cup final and failed to get us promoted from the 2nd tier. This suggests he had problems against the other teams.

I do think that Ross has questions to answer, but given his overall record I think it would be foolish to get rid of him at this stage.

League cup game at ER, when Aberdeen were, I think, unbeaten up to that point. JC scored one and Malonga scored a solo effort where he run with the ball from his own half.

The bit in bold is what this thread is all about for me. I’ve seen very few posters actually say he should be sacked, but it’s entirely understandable that there are doubts over him. He’s the only one who can remove these doubts.

[BoomtownHibees]

I can’t keep up with what’s a big game - feels like when we win one the criteria changes - Hearts had a week off, Aberdeen we’re poor, it was just Dundee united etc.

What’s our all time record vs the OF? Just for comparison.

I think it’s obvious what most would class as a “big” game. Already been pointed out on here numerous times without anybody really ‘moving the goal posts’ from what I have seen. Old Firm, Hearts, Aberdeen, Semis and finals would be what I classed as bigger games

[Danderhall Hibs]

I think it’s obvious what most would class as a “big” game. Already been pointed out on here numerous times without anybody really ‘moving the goal posts’ from what I have seen. Old Firm, Hearts, Aberdeen, Semis and finals would be what I classed as bigger games

I’ve given examples of when a big game isn’t a big game - taken directly from this board over the last few days.

[ahibby]

I know,:wink: but imagine us losing two cup finals to 6, imagine the foaming at the mouth that would cause now. :greengrin They were the best team i ever watched at Hibs, shame it ended so bad for Eddie. :boo hoo:

At least it was to the top side in the country and also the club and only club in Scotland to win the European Cup, it would have been worse if he lost 1-0 to St J, in a final. Did he not also have us finish 2nd in one season, if I remember correctly on top of beating Celtic in three cup fnals at Hampden if I remember correctly. Stuff we could only dream of now.

[BoomtownHibees]

I’ve given examples of when a big game isn’t a big game - taken directly from this board over the last few days.

Sorry mate, you’ve lost me. Not sure what you mean

[Allez Hibs]

Stubbs managed us in division one so wouldnt have played against celtic or aberdeen.

We hammered Aberdeen at home in the League Cup when they were top of the Premier.

[blackpoolhibs]

At least it was to the top side in the country and also the club and only club in Scotland to win the European Cup, it would have been worse if he lost 1-0 to St J, in a final. Did he not also have us finish 2nd in one season, if I remember correctly on top of beating Celtic in three cup fnals at Hampden if I remember correctly. Stuff we could only dream of now.
Yes we finished 2nd, in fact we were in with a shout of winning the bloody thing for a while, but Edwards suspension and Brownlie's broken leg put that out the question.

Our 1st 11 was as good as celtic, but when we had injuries and suspensions, they had a superior squad than ours, and of course the SFA liked to hand out a suspension. :rolleyes:

[Danderhall Hibs]

Sorry mate, you’ve lost me. Not sure what you mean

The post you replied to gave examples of “big” games we won that folk want to be excluded for the reasons listed.

[jeffers]

I do understand and it's predictable, but it's also skewed.

Had we failed to get to the final, but finished third, the criticism of Ross wouldn't be as vitriolic. In a way, it's the improvement in the club that has become the catalyst for the unhappiness.

I don't think I've ever seen criticism of the sort JR is getting either.

Folk are saying that he can't win big games, his interviews are poor, he's hopeless tactically and he can't change the game plan, but they hide by staying that they don't want him sacked! :hilarious

I thought all of those things about Hopeless Heckingbottom but I wanted him emptied. I disagree with sacking JR, but it's like some folk are being mealy-mouthed or snide. Bizarre imo.

As an aside, I think games like Football Manager or whatever it's called have a lot to answer for. Everyone is a tactical genius these days. (Maybe I should buy a copy...)

I agree with your second sentence, but if we’d turned up on Saturday and still lost, the criticism of Ross would be far less.

[BoomtownHibees]

The post you replied to gave examples of “big” games we won that folk want to be excluded for the reasons listed.

Sorry, I’ve not seen anybody want to exclude any of the games against the teams I listed

[Danderhall Hibs]

Sorry, I’ve not seen anybody want to exclude any of the games against the teams I listed

No problem - it’s a fairly lengthy thread now.:hilarious

But it’s all in there/here. Including posts about next seasons results almost posted as fact despite them not having been played yet.

[scoopyboy]

We hammered Aberdeen at home in the League Cup when they were top of the Premier.

Cummings and solo Malonga special.

Did you see my post at #1456?

[bingo70]

I do understand and it's predictable, but it's also skewed.

Had we failed to get to the final, but finished third, the criticism of Ross wouldn't be as vitriolic. In a way, it's the improvement in the club that has become the catalyst for the unhappiness.

I don't think I've ever seen criticism of the sort JR is getting either.

Folk are saying that he can't win big games, his interviews are poor, he's hopeless tactically and he can't change the game plan, but they hide by staying that they don't want him sacked! :hilarious

I thought all of those things about Hopeless Heckingbottom but I wanted him emptied. I disagree with sacking JR, but it's like some folk are being mealy-mouthed or snide. Bizarre imo.

As an aside, I think games like Football Manager or whatever it's called have a lot to answer for. Everyone is a tactical genius these days. (Maybe I should buy a copy...)

The wee laughing emoji is annoying as it’s unnecessary and belittles your point imo.

I don’t think he should be sacked but I couldn’t argue with the points you’ve made before the daft emoji. I don’t think Ross is good at those things.

He has however been good at building a good squad of players.

I think he’s built the 3rd best squad in the country this season so of course he shouldn’t be sacked.

Tactically I’ve not seen anything brilliant from him if plan A isn’t working and I think that’s reflected in our record in games when we lose the first goal. His record in big games isn’t good, that’s not me saying he’s lost them all, he hasn’t and I do find his interviews boring and robot like.

On the flip side to that though there’s every chance he could build on the squad he’s built this season next season though and the idea of paying £100,000’s to sack him would be madness.

[Skol]

League cup game at ER, when Aberdeen were, I think, unbeaten up to that point. JC scored one and Malonga scored a solo effort where he run with the ball from his own half.

The bit in bold is what this thread is all about for me. I’ve seen very few posters actually say he should be sacked, but it’s entirely understandable that there are doubts over him. He’s the only one who can remove these doubts.

The Thread Title is Ross Out !