SNP are lying b******s as well !

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Ok. So I suppose you think that the likes of the Daily Mail or the Daily Express aren't British, as long as they put "Scottish" in front of the name?

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"North British"

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Ok. So I suppose you think that the likes of the Daily Mail or the Daily Express aren't British, as long as they put "Scottish" in front of the name?

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I think you have got in a bit of a mess here. You clearly said British media. You may have meant British media in Scotland but that’s not what you said. In saying what you did in my view gives a false impression.

Although the publications you mention are British it is rare for scottush stories to feature in their British editions. They focus on the uk. Sometimes Scottish stuff gets more prominent but mostly it’s not front and centre unless it’s their Scottish version

The depressing thing thing here is that like the ferries the discussion about the failure to upgrade the A9 has no mention of the people affected whether by substandard road connections or seeing their loved ones lose their lives on what is a notoriously dangerous trunk road. And that’s a real shame. Politics should be about people, not protecting the politicians of all parties who constantly let us down.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

The depressing thing thing here is that like the ferries the discussion about the failure to upgrade the A9 has no mention of the people affected whether by substandard road connections or seeing their loved ones lose their lives on what is a notoriously dangerous trunk road. And that’s a real shame. Politics should be about people, not protecting the politicians of all parties who constantly let us down.

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I understand what you say and agree. But I do wonder how many of the A9 deaths are down to not driving to the road conditions. Every time I use that road I see a lot of stupid overtaking and risk taking. And I don't mean me.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I think you have got in a bit of a mess here. You clearly said British media. You may have meant British media in Scotland but that’s not what you said. In saying what you did in my view gives a false impression.

Although the publications you mention are British it is rare for scottush stories to feature in their British editions. They focus on the uk. Sometimes Scottish stuff gets more prominent but mostly it’s not front and centre unless it’s their Scottish version

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I was referring to a political party in Scotland, over a situation in Scotland. So I would have thought that it would have been very clear that I was referring to the British Media in Scotland and not across the UK as a whole. It wouldn't make sense for them to obsess over these issues in other parts of the UK, as it would have next to no impact on the electoral outcomes in Scotland. In saying that, the media in England are not nearly anywhere near as obsessive over the likes of HS2 or the Ajax debacle as their printed media in Scotland are over the ferries.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

I was referring to a political party in Scotland, over a situation in Scotland. So I would have thought that it would have been very clear that I was referring to the British Media in Scotland and not across the UK as a whole. It wouldn't make sense for them to obsess over these issues in other parts of the UK, as it would have next to no impact on the electoral outcomes in Scotland. In saying that, the media in England are not nearly anywhere near as obsessive over the likes of HS2 or the Ajax debacle as their printed media in Scotland are over the ferries.

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A late over budget infrastructure contract is all they have to fill their schedule in Scotland. I suppose it’s a compliment to the SG.


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Originally Posted by Skol

Says British here

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British media in Scotland

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Originally Posted by grunt

I understand what you say and agree. But I do wonder how many of the A9 deaths are down to not driving to the road conditions. Every time I use that road I see a lot of stupid overtaking and risk taking. And I don't mean me.

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That’s a separate discussion but having several short stretches of dual carriageway before merging back in to single lanes leads to frustration building up slowly but surely as drivers can’t get past slow moving vehicles. We could blame the drivers but we are all flawed human beings and sometimes we let logic go out of the window when reacting to situations. Dual the whole road and the risk taking is no longer an issue.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

A late over budget infrastructure contract is all they have to fill their schedule in Scotland. I suppose it’s a compliment to the SG.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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To be fair I think the events of the past few months suggests you are wrong here. They have had plenty to fill their schedules. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by marinello59

That’s a separate discussion but having several short stretches of dual carriageway before merging back in to single lanes leads to frustration building up slowly but surely as drivers can’t get past slow moving vehicles. We could blame the drivers but we are all flawed human beings and sometimes we let logic go out of the window when reacting to situations. Dual the whole road and the risk taking is no longer an issue.

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I do blame the drivers. If you "let logic go out of the window" you shouldn't be driving.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

To be fair I think the events of the past few months suggests you are wrong here. They have had plenty to fill their schedules. :greengrin

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Yep. Demands that Nicola Sturgeon resigns from politics forever before an investigation has even been concluded. They truly are terrified of her, even as a mere MSP.

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Originally Posted by grunt

I do blame the drivers. If you "let logic go out of the window" you shouldn't be driving.

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Oh I agree, the drivers taking risks are to blame. I don’t think that’s of much comfort to the innocent victims who get wiped out by drivers coming straight towards them after a dodgy over taking manoeuvre though. Dual the road and that can’t happen.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Just another example of two tired and failing governments, too busy obsessing with identity politics and culture wars, to actually focus on ensuring taxpayers’ money is being spent properly.

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To be fair to the SNP, they've always been more of a campaign organisation than a party of government, so as long as the carrot of independence continues to be dangled in front of their more devout adherents their underwhelming record in office is of secondary importance.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

To be fair to the SNP, they've always been more of a campaign organisation than a party of government, so as long as the carrot of independence continues to be dangled in front of their more devout adherents their underwhelming record in office is of secondary importance.

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An "underwhelming record" in office that has still overseen the best performing public services across the whole of the UK over the past 16 years. But hey ho, they're doing it on purpose.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Oh I agree, the drivers taking risks are to blame. I don’t think that’s of much comfort to the innocent victims who get wiped out by drivers coming straight towards them after a dodgy over taking manoeuvre though. Dual the road and that can’t happen.

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Finding someone to do it appears to be the challenge. The SG contracts on large scale civils and infrastructure works tend to try and mitigate risk to public purse by trying to pass any risk on to main contractor. Obviously from the point of view of the tax payer this is good but after projects like AWPR and Queensferry Crossing it has clearly had a negative impact on interest in tendering.

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Originally Posted by degenerated

Finding someone to do it appears to be the challenge. The SG contracts on large scale civils and infrastructure works tend to try and mitigate risk to public purse by trying to pass any risk on to main contractor. Obviously from the point of view of the tax payer this is good but after projects like AWPR and Queensferry Crossing it has clearly had a negative impact on interest in tendering.

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Learnt from the ferries mistake ;-)

Actually, from the mess of the Edinburgh trams project

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Originally Posted by He's here!

To be fair to the SNP, they've always been more of a campaign organisation than a party of government, so as long as the carrot of independence continues to be dangled in front of their more devout adherents their underwhelming record in office is of secondary importance.

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Are you for real? Or are you just posting stuff to annoy people?

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

An "underwhelming record" in office that has still overseen the best performing public services across the whole of the UK over the past 16 years. But hey ho, they're doing it on purpose.

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wasting yer time there :agree:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Are you for real? Or are you just posting stuff to annoy people?

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it's bizarre :agree:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Oh I agree, the drivers taking risks are to blame. I don’t think that’s of much comfort to the innocent victims who get wiped out by drivers coming straight towards them after a dodgy over taking manoeuvre though. Dual the road and that can’t happen.

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And you lay the blame for this at the feet of the Scottish Government? Ok.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

To be fair to the SNP, they've always been more of a campaign organisation than a party of government, so as long as the carrot of independence continues to be dangled in front of their more devout adherents their underwhelming record in office is of secondary importance.

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That’s a bit unfair. Salmond’s SNP administration did a pretty good job.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

That’s a bit unfair. Salmond’s SNP administration did a pretty good job.

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Nicola Sturgeon was also doing a good job until Brexit came along and started doing the very damage that she warned people it would do.

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Originally Posted by grunt

And you lay the blame for this at the feet of the Scottish Government? Ok.

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That’s really not what I’ve done. Politicians of all parties are in agreement that duelling the road would save lives as well as delivering an economic boost to the areas served by it. I’m sure you would agree that’s a reasonable take on things. Which makes the failure to deliver on this all the more baffling.
Please don’t try and reduce my posts on this to a Daily Mail style headline suggesting Hundreds Die on SNP Highway to Hell. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by grunt

Are you for real? Or are you just posting stuff to annoy people?

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It’s been said in here many times the snp are just the vehicle for independence and they will melt away once it’s been achieved. Or is that fake news?

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Originally Posted by Skol

It’s been said in here many times the snp are just the vehicle for independence and they will melt away once it’s been achieved. Or is that fake news?

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It's been said that after independence, the SNP would cease to exist in it's current form and a new party or multiple parties would likely form as a result. But to call a party that has been in Government for 16 years, which has seen off 5 (soon to be 6) prime ministers more of a "campaign organisation" rather than a party of Government is just being silly.

The narrative is being changed again to suit. I have no recollection if you are one who has said it but many have been clear. You only vote snp to gain independence and not because of their competence in government.

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Originally Posted by Skol

The narrative is being changed again to suit. I have no recollection if you are one who has said it but many have been clear. You only vote snp to gain independence and not because of their competence in government.

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You only vote Conservative/Labour to prevent independence, not because of their competence in Government.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

You only vote Conservative/Labour to prevent independence, not because of their competence in Government.

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I vote both to prevent independence and an snp government. 50/50 success rate only

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Originally Posted by Skol

I vote both to prevent independence and an snp government. 50/50 success rate only

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Of course. It's clearly not for either parties excellent array of policies or anything useful they actually have to offer Scotland. It's merely to prevent your countries very normal and reasonable right to self determination.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I vote both to prevent independence and an snp government. 50/50 success rate only

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I want independence but won’t be voting SNP again. 0/100 success rate for me. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Of course. It's clearly not for either parties excellent array of policies or anything useful they actually have to offer Scotland. It's merely to prevent your countries very normal and reasonable right to self determination.

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The choices available to uk voters whatever the vote is for are pretty poor right now. Awful In fact. Which version of **** do you want.

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Originally Posted by Skol

The choices available to uk voters whatever the vote is for are pretty poor right now. Awful In fact. Which version of **** do you want.

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**** that we have full control and responsibility over. Rather than simply having it inflicted on us instead because another country thinks it knows what we want better than ourselves.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

**** that we have full control and responsibility over. Rather than simply having it inflicted on us instead because another country thinks it knows what we want better than ourselves.

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I do see the merit in the desire to be in control of our own destiny. I don’t like painting it as having another country inflicting their way on us and I don’t think that helps to sell the independence vision.

I would like to see a better vision laid out and something that can explain to me why it will be better rather than just the emotional pull.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

I want independence but won’t be voting SNP again. 0/100 success rate for me. :greengrin

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:confused:

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Originally Posted by grunt

:confused:

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Why are you confused?

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Why are you confused?

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Probably because there are only 3 parties offering independence, SNP, Alba and Greens with only really one of those who'll be in a position to offer it.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I do see the merit in the desire to be in control of our own destiny. I don’t like painting it as having another country inflicting their way on us and I don’t think that helps to sell the independence vision.

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It may not be pleasant to hear or read. But it is the truth of the matter. Westminster is historically right-wing. You only have to look up the list of ruling parties all the way back to the early 18th century to see this. There has been very few occasions over 200 years where the UK had has a genuine left-wing alternative. We're now in the situation where the only alternative to the Conservative Party is a party that can only get into Government if it tries to out do the Conservative Party on the same side of the political spectrum. Both parties are trying to appeal to the same set of voters (predominantly in Southern England), while simply abandoning those who sit on the other end of that spectrum. Which is a real problem for Scotland, as we have a larger share of people who sit on the other end and the only representation they get is from a devolved parliament that is being constantly undermined by a Government at Westminster that doesn't line up with the overall values of this country.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I would like to see a better vision laid out and something that can explain to me why it will be better rather than just the emotional pull.

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Ultimately any kind of vision that is put out (whether you like that vision or not), is meaningless. Because whatever the current party in Government in Scotland puts out as their ideological vision for an independent Scotland will undoubtedly change as the power balance at Holyrood changes in an independent Scotland. Different parties will bring different visions and the course will forever change. That's just the nature of politics in all countries.

I get all that. Virtually everyone does. However it still doesn’t mean independence will improve our lot. It could make things worse. It’s that sort of transparency we lack.

If we gain independence the snp will form the first government. It’s incumbent on them to lay out what that first term will look like.

Marinello gets that and can see the faults in the snp strategy. It needs more of you to realise that before independence can move forward. Heck with some vision and leadership you might even get my vote.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

I just need to see Covid used as an excuse now and I’m shouting Bingo! :greengrin

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Work on the section between luncarty and Birnam was halted during covid.

Happy to oblige 👍😁

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Originally Posted by Skol

I get all that. Virtually everyone does. However it still doesn’t mean independence will improve our lot. It could make things worse. It’s that sort of transparency we lack.

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I've continuously came across this point, while things continue to get worse for Scotland as part of the UK anyway. I just wonder how bad it's going to need to get before enough people reach the point where it's just worth going for anyway. There's no guarantee that independence would improve our lot. But then again, economic growth isn't everything. Particularly when it's leaving a huge chunk of the population behind. The pie itself may get bigger, but if the slice that is occupied by the majority of people remains the same size or shrinks, then the overall growth is ultimately meaningless and only serves to benefit the most wealthy. A problem we've been witnessing for decades across the whole of the UK.

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Originally Posted by Skol

If we gain independence the snp will form the first government. It’s incumbent on them to lay out what that first term will look like.

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That's a fair point. But they may not be able to lay out what the first term is going to look like until negotiations are settled with Westminster. Negotiations that will only occur following an independence vote.

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Originally Posted by Skol

Marinello gets that and can see the faults in the snp strategy. It needs more of you to realise that before independence can move forward. Heck with some vision and leadership you might even get my vote.

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I don't think the SNP can really do anything more with their strategy. People want answers to questions that can't possibly be answered until a certain point in the process is reached. A process that can't even begin without an independence vote first being achieved.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

I've continuously came across this point, while things continue to get worse for Scotland as part of the UK anyway. I just wonder how bad it's going to need to get before enough people reach the point where it's just worth going for anyway. There's no guarantee that independence would improve our lot. But then again, economic growth isn't everything. Particularly when it's leaving a huge chunk of the population behind. The pie itself may get bigger, but if the slice that is occupied by the majority of people remains the same size or shrinks, then the overall growth is ultimately meaningless and only serves to benefit the most wealthy. A problem we've been witnessing for decades across the whole of the UK.



That's a fair point. But they may not be able to lay out what the first term is going to look like until negotiations are settled with Westminster. Negotiations that will only occur following an independence vote.



I don't think the SNP can really do anything more with their strategy. People want answers to questions that can't possibly be answered until a certain point in the process is reached. A process that can't even begin without an independence vote first being achieved.

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It’s not meant to get better for Scotland. When the whole argument is you can’t afford to be independent then there is no way they will want to change that.


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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Work on the section between luncarty and Birnam was halted during covid.

Happy to oblige 👍😁

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Woo hoo, finally I’m a winner. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s not meant to get better for Scotland. When the whole argument is you can’t afford to be independent then there is no way they will want to change that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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It's not meant to get better for anyone in the UK other than the 3% or so at the top, that is the pattern dictated by neo-liberalism and the manner it materialises itself here. Rich get richer and richer, everyone else gets the shavings and crumbs.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Kato

It's not meant to get better for anyone in the UK other than the 3% or so at the top, that is the pattern dictated by neo-liberalism and the manner it materialises itself here. Rich get richer and richer, everyone else gets the shavings and crumbs.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

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You do realise that the SNP won’t be making any significant shift away from neo-liberalism at all? It’s why I can’t vote for them.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

You do realise that the SNP won’t be making any significant shift away from neo-liberalism at all? It’s why I can’t vote for them.

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Yes I do realise that. I wouldn't vote for them post ind and am not committed to vote for them next election.

Extricating a country from that scam will be tricky and they canny get taking juice boatles back right.

Labour will apply a sticking plaster again and smile in the photos with the billionaires and the Tories will have Maggies take, "we won't let anyone starve", except they will.


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Originally Posted by marinello59

You do realise that the SNP won’t be making any significant shift away from neo-liberalism at all? It’s why I can’t vote for them.

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You do realize that they are in no position to do so under the current arrangement? Labour will be soon under Keir Starmer however, but we all know they'll be slamming their foot down on the neo-liberal accelerator.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

You do realize that they are in no position to do so under the current arrangement? Labour will be soon under Keir Starmer however, but we all know they'll be slamming their foot down on the neo-liberal accelerator.

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So are you saying the SNP want to move away from neoliberalism? If so, how will they do this post independence?

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

You do realize that they are in no position to do so under the current arrangement? Labour will be soon under Keir Starmer however, but we all know they'll be slamming their foot down on the neo-liberal accelerator.

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the SNP could articulate how they would do this in a post independence world, which may sway more people to vote for them

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Originally Posted by marinello59

That’s a bit unfair. Salmond’s SNP administration did a pretty good job.

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Yes, I'd concede that to a certain extent. He did, though, work hand in hand with the Tories to enact his flagship policies and get his budgets through. The divisive rhetoric which has defined the party ever since only got ramped up when the referendum campaign began and I thought he lost the plot in his TV debates with Darling which turned a number of voters against him.

Front page of the mail running with new fraudulent allegations

https://twitter.com/craigmurrayorg/s...uecN_TDBpg3wPA

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Originally Posted by Paul1642

Front page of the mail running with new fraudulent allegations

https://twitter.com/craigmurrayorg/s...uecN_TDBpg3wPA

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Michelle Thomson's clearly not taken kindly to Keith Brown claiming she stepped down voluntarily:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cp...at22.09.10.png

I'd trust Keith Brown over somebody who scams terminally ill people tbh.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

I'd trust Keith Brown over somebody who scams terminally ill people tbh.

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Why? You told me Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (despite apologinng) because there hadn't been a police investigation. Why does the same not apply to Michelle Thomson?

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Originally Posted by archie

Why? You told me Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (despite apologinng) because there hadn't been a police investigation. Why does the same not apply to Michelle Thomson?

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I never said she was guilty of anything in the eyes of the law. A person doesn't need to be guilty in the eyes of the law to be a thoroughly despicable human being. I also never said that Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (just that it hadn't been proven in a court of law), so don't make things up.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

I never said she was guilty of anything in the eyes of the law. A person doesn't need to be guilty in the eyes of the law to be a thoroughly despicable human being. I also never said that Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (just that it hadn't been proven in a court of law), so don't make things up.

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Well you argued that the Parliamentary investigation and his admission weren't significant because the police hadn't been involved. It's so absurd I can see you want to distance yourself from it.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

A person doesn't need to be guilty in the eyes of the law to be a thoroughly despicable human being.

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Cf. Alex Salmond

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Originally Posted by archie

Why? You told me Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (despite apologinng) because there hadn't been a police investigation. Why does the same not apply to Michelle Thomson?

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There are certainly inconsistencies here. IIRC Thomson was never even under police investigation yet got suspended. The Murrells & Co have all been arrested as suspects in a criminal investigation yet for them it's 'innocent until proven guilty'.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/lab...ll-2023-06-17/

Latest polling shows Labour on course to win in Scotland at next general election.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

There are certainly inconsistencies here. IIRC Thomson was never even under police investigation yet got suspended. The Murrells & Co have all been arrested as suspects in a criminal investigation yet for them it's 'innocent until proven guilty'.

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Do you really want to talk about inconsistencies?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

There are certainly inconsistencies here. IIRC Thomson was never even under police investigation yet got suspended. The Murrells & Co have all been arrested as suspects in a criminal investigation yet for them it's 'innocent until proven guilty'.

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She never got "suspended" because the SNP were in no legal position to suspend her. She voluntary stepped down because she knew a police investigation was on the horizon. An investigation that lasted 2 years. But even then, the SNP could not legally suspend her.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

She never got "suspended" because the SNP were in no legal position to suspend her. She voluntary stepped down because she knew a police investigation was on the horizon. An investigation that lasted 2 years. But even then, the SNP could not legally suspend her.

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Again, your saying it didn't happen because there wasn't a legal power to do so. She is saying that she was forced to do it. Why won't you believe a woman telling her story?

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Originally Posted by archie

Again, your saying it didn't happen because there wasn't a legal power to do so. She is saying that she was forced to do it. Why won't you believe a woman telling her story?

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Why do you believe a con artist telling her story? She claims to have been "forced" out. But gives absolutely no details on the apparent methods used to "force" her out. This on top of the fact that she actively said at the time that she voluntarily stepped down. She's a liar, plain and simple.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Why do you believe a con artist telling her story? She claims to have been "forced" out. But gives absolutely no details on the apparent methods used to "force" her out. This on top of the fact that she actively said at the time that she voluntarily stepped down. She's a liar, plain and simple.

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SNP politician telling lies and is a con artist …shock horror :faf::faf::faf:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Why do you believe a con artist telling her story? She claims to have been "forced" out. But gives absolutely no details on the apparent methods used to "force" her out. This on top of the fact that she actively said at the time that she voluntarily stepped down. She's a liar, plain and simple.

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You're a loyal foot soldier - I'll give you that.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

SNP politician telling lies and is a con artist …shock horror :faf::faf::faf:

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It's not unique to the SNP and pretty small beer compared to the unionist parties. Tories lied and conned the tax payer out of billions with their dodgy dealings and last time around Labour lied and it ended up with a million dead Iraqis.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

SNP politician telling lies and is a con artist …shock horror :faf::faf::faf:

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It's almost as if every party is prone to the odd rotten one every now and then. Well except of course for the Conservative Party which is the home for all things rotten in general.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

It's almost as if every party is prone to the odd rotten one every now and then. Well except of course for the Conservative Party which is the home for all things rotten in general.

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Yup Tartan Tories behaving like the real Tory’s lol 😂

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

I never said she was guilty of anything in the eyes of the law. A person doesn't need to be guilty in the eyes of the law to be a thoroughly despicable human being. I also never said that Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (just that it hadn't been proven in a court of law), so don't make things up.

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'A thoroughly despicable human being'...quite the character assassination.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

'A thoroughly despicable human being'...quite the character assassination.

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Not really surprised to see you defend a person of her "calibre" tbh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by archie

Again, your saying it didn't happen because there wasn't a legal power to do so. She is saying that she was forced to do it. Why won't you believe a woman telling her story?

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Depends which woman it is I suspect. Now that we live in an era where 'speaking your truth' is seemingly the equivalent of THE truth, I'm guessing Sturgeon being 'certain' she has done nothing wrong precludes the need for the police to conclude their investigation in the eyes of her devotees.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Not really surprised to see you defend a person of her "calibre" tbh.

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I'm not defending her. I don't know her. I just think she makes a valid point about the SNP criteria for suspension.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Depends which woman it is I suspect. Now that we live in an era where 'speaking your truth' is seemingly the equivalent of THE truth, I'm guessing Sturgeon being 'certain' she has done nothing wrong precludes the need for the police to conclude their investigation in the eyes of her devotees.

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Difference is. Nicola Sturgeon hasn't been found to have done anything wrong as of yet. Michelle Thompson scammed people to further her own business interests, this is a proven fact, even if she technically did so within the law.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Not really surprised to see you defend a person of her "calibre" tbh.

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Your so argumentative old bean, lighten up its hard to read the constant war in these posts again after the board got better, or don't I suppose

I can see this forum going back to being PM again, most of the debate is tit for tat and point scoring, getting all so very boring.

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Originally Posted by J-C

I can see this forum going back to being PM again, most of the debate is tit for tat and point scoring, getting all so very boring.

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you’re right about your last point, it is, although I have a feeling that the admins won’t just make it PMs only, they’ll just shut it down.


some civility for all please

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Originally Posted by J-C

I can see this forum going back to being PM again, most of the debate is tit for tat and point scoring, getting all so very boring.

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I would support that.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I would support that.

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There was certainly more policy chat.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

There was certainly more policy chat.


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It's the same 3-4 anti SNP posters over every post.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Depends which woman it is I suspect. Now that we live in an era where 'speaking your truth' is seemingly the equivalent of THE truth, I'm guessing Sturgeon being 'certain' she has done nothing wrong precludes the need for the police to conclude their investigation in the eyes of her devotees.

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She could easily have said “I’ve done nothing wrong”.

This was a clever choice of words that left just enough wiggle room!

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Originally Posted by J-C

It's the same 3-4 anti SNP posters over every post.

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Have you noticed the title of the thread;-)

FWIW I would prefer some good discussion on here as well but it feels like anyone who questions anything on the independence side is immediately challenged and put down with little willingness to debate. Granted some on the other side as well do likewise. If you want the thread closed down so only people who share your view contribute then that’s fine but it doesn’t feel the right thing to me.

It would be great if we can move away from that and maybe even listen to and consider orders views and why we hold them. Some of us may even change our thinking.

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Originally Posted by J-C

It's the same 3-4 anti SNP posters over every post.

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Quite the opposite.

Any posts that are even slightly critical of the SNP or Scots Gov is pounced on almost immediately. A lot of the time with a bit of a dig or needle directed at the poster.

Those against Indy rarely have digs at others.

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

She could easily have said “I’ve done nothing wrong”.

This was a clever choice of words that left just enough wiggle room!

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That's nonsense. Wiggle room for what?

If she's done something wrong, her choice of words denying it will be irrelevant.

She's certain. i.e. absolutely sure.

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/s...dxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I would support that.

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Me too.

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Originally Posted by J-C

It's the same 3-4 anti SNP posters over every post.

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It's both sides, I wouldn't read an echo chamber.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It's both sides, I wouldn't read an echo chamber.

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I agree. I don't think people should be rude and I think arguments should be well sourced and constructed. But surely having views challenged and debating the issues is the point?

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Originally Posted by archie

But surely having views challenged and debating the issues is the point?

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I agree. But I have given reason to my stance on issues while being expected to accept alternative arguments that are not backed up with any reason. I don't want this sub forum to be shut down for what I believe to be completely nonsensical reasons. So I'm just going to quit posting on it.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

I agree. But I have given reason to my stance on issues while being expected to accept alternative arguments that are not backed up with any reason. I don't want this sub forum to be shut down for what I believe to be completely nonsensical reasons. So I'm just going to quit posting on it.

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Stay on enjoy it and chill, we all need to. There's loads of opinions here, some completely different from my own, I wouldn't arrogantly say one is right or wrong. I've been proven wrong an incredible number of times on here ha, I actually enjoy it. There's no point pushing our views down others throats saying this is right, you are wrong

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...iness-65948190

Some good news. Nowhere near enough but better.


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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

That's nonsense. Wiggle room for what?

If she's done something wrong, her choice of words denying it will be irrelevant.

She's certain. i.e. absolutely sure.

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Nah.

Saying "I did not do that", is different to saying, "I'm certain I did not do that".

Wiggle room!!

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

Nah.

Saying "I did not do that", is different to saying, "I'm certain I did not do that".

Wiggle room!!

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Certain didn’t used to mean doubt? This must be a new thing?


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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

Nah.

Saying "I did not do that", is different to saying, "I'm certain I did not do that".

Wiggle room!!

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I must have had the definition of “certain” wrong all my life in that case.

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Originally Posted by Skol

Have you noticed the title of the thread;-)

FWIW I would prefer some good discussion on here as well but it feels like anyone who questions anything on the independence side is immediately challenged and put down with little willingness to debate. Granted some on the other side as well do likewise. If you want the thread closed down so only people who share your view contribute then that’s fine but it doesn’t feel the right thing to me.

It would be great if we can move away from that and maybe even listen to and consider orders views and why we hold them. Some of us may even change our thinking.

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I mean no offence when I say this, but you often hint that you’d be very open to changing your mind on independence and I struggle to believe you.

What sort of good discussion and willingness to debate do you expect in return from random one line posts of “oh what an oppressed nation we are” and telling people they’re blinkered in their views, and their posts are just standard SNP rubbish?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Certain didn’t used to mean doubt? This must be a new thing?


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“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀

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😂.

Think you are seeing what you want to see with this one.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀

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Or she could be.. emm.. certain.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

😂.

Think you are seeing what you want to see with this one.

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I’m seeing what she said and just wondering why she needed to preface it with “I’m certain...”

If she did nothing wrong, say “I did nothing wrong” and make it unambiguous. As we know, she is a lawyer and a former party leader - she knows the importance of how she words her utterances.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

Or she could be.. emm.. certain.

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Which allows her to claim that if there was any wrongdoing, she didn’t know it was wrongdoing.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀

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certain
adjective

UK /ˈsɜː.tən/ US /ˈsɝː.tən/

certain adjective (WITHOUT DOUBT)

Add to word list

B1

having no doubt or knowing exactly that something is true, or known to be true, correct, exact, or effective: