SNP are lying b******s as well !

[grunt]

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Oh I agree, the drivers taking risks are to blame. I don’t think that’s of much comfort to the innocent victims who get wiped out by drivers coming straight towards them after a dodgy over taking manoeuvre though. Dual the road and that can’t happen.

And you lay the blame for this at the feet of the Scottish Government? Ok.

[marinello59]

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To be fair to the SNP, they've always been more of a campaign organisation than a party of government, so as long as the carrot of independence continues to be dangled in front of their more devout adherents their underwhelming record in office is of secondary importance.

That’s a bit unfair. Salmond’s SNP administration did a pretty good job.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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That’s a bit unfair. Salmond’s SNP administration did a pretty good job.

Nicola Sturgeon was also doing a good job until Brexit came along and started doing the very damage that she warned people it would do.

[marinello59]

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And you lay the blame for this at the feet of the Scottish Government? Ok.

That’s really not what I’ve done. Politicians of all parties are in agreement that duelling the road would save lives as well as delivering an economic boost to the areas served by it. I’m sure you would agree that’s a reasonable take on things. Which makes the failure to deliver on this all the more baffling.
Please don’t try and reduce my posts on this to a Daily Mail style headline suggesting Hundreds Die on SNP Highway to Hell.

[Skol]

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Are you for real? Or are you just posting stuff to annoy people?

It’s been said in here many times the snp are just the vehicle for independence and they will melt away once it’s been achieved. Or is that fake news?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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It’s been said in here many times the snp are just the vehicle for independence and they will melt away once it’s been achieved. Or is that fake news?

It's been said that after independence, the SNP would cease to exist in it's current form and a new party or multiple parties would likely form as a result. But to call a party that has been in Government for 16 years, which has seen off 5 (soon to be 6) prime ministers more of a "campaign organisation" rather than a party of Government is just being silly.

[Skol]

The narrative is being changed again to suit. I have no recollection if you are one who has said it but many have been clear. You only vote snp to gain independence and not because of their competence in government.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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The narrative is being changed again to suit. I have no recollection if you are one who has said it but many have been clear. You only vote snp to gain independence and not because of their competence in government.

You only vote Conservative/Labour to prevent independence, not because of their competence in Government.

[Skol]

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You only vote Conservative/Labour to prevent independence, not because of their competence in Government.

I vote both to prevent independence and an snp government. 50/50 success rate only

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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I vote both to prevent independence and an snp government. 50/50 success rate only

Of course. It's clearly not for either parties excellent array of policies or anything useful they actually have to offer Scotland. It's merely to prevent your countries very normal and reasonable right to self determination.

[marinello59]

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I vote both to prevent independence and an snp government. 50/50 success rate only

I want independence but won’t be voting SNP again. 0/100 success rate for me.

[Skol]

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Of course. It's clearly not for either parties excellent array of policies or anything useful they actually have to offer Scotland. It's merely to prevent your countries very normal and reasonable right to self determination.

The choices available to uk voters whatever the vote is for are pretty poor right now. Awful In fact. Which version of **** do you want.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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The choices available to uk voters whatever the vote is for are pretty poor right now. Awful In fact. Which version of **** do you want.

**** that we have full control and responsibility over. Rather than simply having it inflicted on us instead because another country thinks it knows what we want better than ourselves.

[Skol]

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**** that we have full control and responsibility over. Rather than simply having it inflicted on us instead because another country thinks it knows what we want better than ourselves.

I do see the merit in the desire to be in control of our own destiny. I don’t like painting it as having another country inflicting their way on us and I don’t think that helps to sell the independence vision.

I would like to see a better vision laid out and something that can explain to me why it will be better rather than just the emotional pull.

[grunt]

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I want independence but won’t be voting SNP again. 0/100 success rate for me.

[marinello59]

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Why are you confused?

[J-C]

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Why are you confused?

Probably because there are only 3 parties offering independence, SNP, Alba and Greens with only really one of those who'll be in a position to offer it.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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I do see the merit in the desire to be in control of our own destiny. I don’t like painting it as having another country inflicting their way on us and I don’t think that helps to sell the independence vision.

It may not be pleasant to hear or read. But it is the truth of the matter. Westminster is historically right-wing. You only have to look up the list of ruling parties all the way back to the early 18th century to see this. There has been very few occasions over 200 years where the UK had has a genuine left-wing alternative. We're now in the situation where the only alternative to the Conservative Party is a party that can only get into Government if it tries to out do the Conservative Party on the same side of the political spectrum. Both parties are trying to appeal to the same set of voters (predominantly in Southern England), while simply abandoning those who sit on the other end of that spectrum. Which is a real problem for Scotland, as we have a larger share of people who sit on the other end and the only representation they get is from a devolved parliament that is being constantly undermined by a Government at Westminster that doesn't line up with the overall values of this country.

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I would like to see a better vision laid out and something that can explain to me why it will be better rather than just the emotional pull.

Ultimately any kind of vision that is put out (whether you like that vision or not), is meaningless. Because whatever the current party in Government in Scotland puts out as their ideological vision for an independent Scotland will undoubtedly change as the power balance at Holyrood changes in an independent Scotland. Different parties will bring different visions and the course will forever change. That's just the nature of politics in all countries.

[Skol]

I get all that. Virtually everyone does. However it still doesn’t mean independence will improve our lot. It could make things worse. It’s that sort of transparency we lack.

If we gain independence the snp will form the first government. It’s incumbent on them to lay out what that first term will look like.

Marinello gets that and can see the faults in the snp strategy. It needs more of you to realise that before independence can move forward. Heck with some vision and leadership you might even get my vote.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I just need to see Covid used as an excuse now and I’m shouting Bingo!

Work on the section between luncarty and Birnam was halted during covid.

Happy to oblige 👍😁

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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I get all that. Virtually everyone does. However it still doesn’t mean independence will improve our lot. It could make things worse. It’s that sort of transparency we lack.

I've continuously came across this point, while things continue to get worse for Scotland as part of the UK anyway. I just wonder how bad it's going to need to get before enough people reach the point where it's just worth going for anyway. There's no guarantee that independence would improve our lot. But then again, economic growth isn't everything. Particularly when it's leaving a huge chunk of the population behind. The pie itself may get bigger, but if the slice that is occupied by the majority of people remains the same size or shrinks, then the overall growth is ultimately meaningless and only serves to benefit the most wealthy. A problem we've been witnessing for decades across the whole of the UK.

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If we gain independence the snp will form the first government. It’s incumbent on them to lay out what that first term will look like.

That's a fair point. But they may not be able to lay out what the first term is going to look like until negotiations are settled with Westminster. Negotiations that will only occur following an independence vote.

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Marinello gets that and can see the faults in the snp strategy. It needs more of you to realise that before independence can move forward. Heck with some vision and leadership you might even get my vote.

I don't think the SNP can really do anything more with their strategy. People want answers to questions that can't possibly be answered until a certain point in the process is reached. A process that can't even begin without an independence vote first being achieved.

[Ozyhibby]

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I've continuously came across this point, while things continue to get worse for Scotland as part of the UK anyway. I just wonder how bad it's going to need to get before enough people reach the point where it's just worth going for anyway. There's no guarantee that independence would improve our lot. But then again, economic growth isn't everything. Particularly when it's leaving a huge chunk of the population behind. The pie itself may get bigger, but if the slice that is occupied by the majority of people remains the same size or shrinks, then the overall growth is ultimately meaningless and only serves to benefit the most wealthy. A problem we've been witnessing for decades across the whole of the UK.



That's a fair point. But they may not be able to lay out what the first term is going to look like until negotiations are settled with Westminster. Negotiations that will only occur following an independence vote.



I don't think the SNP can really do anything more with their strategy. People want answers to questions that can't possibly be answered until a certain point in the process is reached. A process that can't even begin without an independence vote first being achieved.

It’s not meant to get better for Scotland. When the whole argument is you can’t afford to be independent then there is no way they will want to change that.


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[marinello59]

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Work on the section between luncarty and Birnam was halted during covid.

Happy to oblige 👍😁

Woo hoo, finally I’m a winner.

[Kato]

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It’s not meant to get better for Scotland. When the whole argument is you can’t afford to be independent then there is no way they will want to change that.


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It's not meant to get better for anyone in the UK other than the 3% or so at the top, that is the pattern dictated by neo-liberalism and the manner it materialises itself here. Rich get richer and richer, everyone else gets the shavings and crumbs.

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[marinello59]

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It's not meant to get better for anyone in the UK other than the 3% or so at the top, that is the pattern dictated by neo-liberalism and the manner it materialises itself here. Rich get richer and richer, everyone else gets the shavings and crumbs.

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You do realise that the SNP won’t be making any significant shift away from neo-liberalism at all? It’s why I can’t vote for them.

[Kato]

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You do realise that the SNP won’t be making any significant shift away from neo-liberalism at all? It’s why I can’t vote for them.

Yes I do realise that. I wouldn't vote for them post ind and am not committed to vote for them next election.

Extricating a country from that scam will be tricky and they canny get taking juice boatles back right.

Labour will apply a sticking plaster again and smile in the photos with the billionaires and the Tories will have Maggies take, "we won't let anyone starve", except they will.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

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You do realise that the SNP won’t be making any significant shift away from neo-liberalism at all? It’s why I can’t vote for them.

You do realize that they are in no position to do so under the current arrangement? Labour will be soon under Keir Starmer however, but we all know they'll be slamming their foot down on the neo-liberal accelerator.

[archie]

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You do realize that they are in no position to do so under the current arrangement? Labour will be soon under Keir Starmer however, but we all know they'll be slamming their foot down on the neo-liberal accelerator.

So are you saying the SNP want to move away from neoliberalism? If so, how will they do this post independence?

[McD]

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You do realize that they are in no position to do so under the current arrangement? Labour will be soon under Keir Starmer however, but we all know they'll be slamming their foot down on the neo-liberal accelerator.

the SNP could articulate how they would do this in a post independence world, which may sway more people to vote for them

[He's here!]

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That’s a bit unfair. Salmond’s SNP administration did a pretty good job.

Yes, I'd concede that to a certain extent. He did, though, work hand in hand with the Tories to enact his flagship policies and get his budgets through. The divisive rhetoric which has defined the party ever since only got ramped up when the referendum campaign began and I thought he lost the plot in his TV debates with Darling which turned a number of voters against him.