I think you underestimate the power of emotional attachment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
The flags are by the by.
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I think you underestimate the power of emotional attachment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
The flags are by the by.
I doubt there is anyone planning the yes campaign who under estimates that? They know good and well that if it comes down to emotional attachment, yes wins a landslide. And I’m sure Better Together 2 know that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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I like doug Stanhope on nationalism also immigration in there 😆
https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/comedy...n-nationalism/
Maybe I have understated it in that post and maybe what I also understated was my complete distain for it in the face of proof that all it is doing is self-harm.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Emotional attachment allowed Thatcher in again in 83 leading to the start of the dismantling of the social contract in this country.
Emotional attachment - the Brexit vote.
Emotional attachment - Boris Johnson and get brexit done.
When do emotions give way to pragmatism?
How is the UK doing in the face of all this emotional attachment?
(If you disagree that Thatchers 2nd term, brexit and Johnson becoming PM weren't emotionally driven I'd have to hear the pragmatic arguments for them)
Any vote I lend to the SNP is purely pragmatic, a hope that we can get away from the Torys' Right-Wing Project, which let's face it driven by Russian money and Russian needs.
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Well it's one view, but it's a pretty myopic view I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
What is your alternative?
If we don't get independence then we will forever be governed by people we don't vote for.
If it remains the current batch of Tories - and there's no indication to think otherwise - then they will continue to take us down the path of rightwing fascism where there is increasingly small support for the weaker in society. You may be happy with that, but I'm not.
In the absence of independence - built upon the nationalism you so despise - we in Scotland can kiss democracy goodbye.
So, yeah, very droll comedian take on nationalism, but it's not even half the story is it? Frankly if you take your political views from American libertarian comedians, then good luck to you.
Did you read it? I think it's pretty accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
There's nothing special about Scots people vs English people. The problem with the UK is centuries of history that have created a ****ed up, class ridden, post-imperially neurotic and criminally over-centralised system of governance and a ruling class resolutely invested in keeping it that way.
Scottish independence is our only way out of that in what's left of my lifetime and probably one of the few things that might shock England into doing at least a little bit about it.
Yes I read it. I was put off immediately by the stupid, simplistic and plain wrong first sentence - my support for Scottish nationalism does not mean that I hate the English. Heck, I'm English myself! That is such a lazy thoughtless trope, I can't even think about it without getting angry.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
My support for Scottish nationalism is grounded in the realisation that the way we want to run our lives up here is VERY different to the way the Tories want to run England. We either bow to their fascist ways or we go on our own. I vote for the latter.
Yeah, it would be a lot simpler if we had a term in English similar to the Spanish/Catalan "independentista". Nationalism has dual meanings but yer man the comic is clearly talking about the "my country's better than yours" kind. A sentiment present among the wider Yes movement for sure, but not its driving force now, if it ever was. A sentiment rife among right wingers everywhere, very much including almost all Tories.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Rayner on independence:
Labour's Angela Rayner sets out opposition to second IndyRef | STV News
What Quebec can teach us about Scotland’s future if SNP’s independence gambit fails, by Mark McGeoghegan | HeraldScotland
I like this guy's sentiments but at present I fear it's wishful thinking...
Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
1. She thinks that Labour needs the SNP in Westminster to allow Labour to get into power. She's wrong.Quote:
"Leaving us to perpetual Conservatism at Westminster is not very nice…but actually having a Labour government could make all the difference.”
The deputy Labour leader also outlined the importance of Scotland.
She added: “Scotland is absolutely key, it’s key to Manchester, it’s key to the whole of the United Kingdom.
2. She wants Scotland in the UK because of our natural resources; not because she values the Scottish people, she values the oil and water we have. In this regard she's as bad as the Tories.
You're right, it is wishful thinking on his part.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
I couldn't put it better than this comment on the article:
Quote:
There are a lot of differences between Scotland and Quebec, most of which are obvious. The most important one is that Quebec didn't have a dysfunctional narrow-minded, right-wing, near-fascist state as its neighbour, instead it had a properly functioning centrist democracy which was worth staying with as far as enough voters were concerned.
She doesn’t actually make a case for the union being better for Scotland, does she?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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How the next Prime Minister should deal with Nicola Sturgeon:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...icola-sturgeon
That is such an incredibly stupid article I can't even begin to respond. Stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Other than to say, if this is the quality of commentator who is supporting the union, we'll have no problem gaining independence.
Seriously, what a dumb article.
You spelled Turdgeon wron :greengrin:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Age: 59Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
It was done intentionally as HH missed a letter ….whooshQuote:
Originally Posted by grunt
I disagree with the very premise that Nicola Sturgeon is someone who needs "dealt with".Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
The only future for the union is if the totally opposite approach is taken (funnily enough, I thought this was possibly the actual gist of the article albeit it was hidden amongst so much pish it was difficult to make out) - by respecting devolution, by respecting the FM, by respecting the people of Scotland and having a union that is beneficial and effortless as it is so clearly in the interests of all parties.
Pigs will fly before we ever get that (mainly due to the attitudes of those South of the border and in particular those who are likely to be minded to write and read articles like this one).
Ambushed at Bute House, ambushed with a cake. Johnson as victim :faf:Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Jan Moir (?) in the Mail today. I'll not link to it, but you can find it if you wish.
Describes SNP voters thus:
Is she following me around Asda? :greengrin
This approach to saving the union is fantastic for Indy. Keep insulting Scottish people.[emoji106]Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
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You're absolutely right, the article did get round to this sensible solution. One of the stupid things about it was the complete lack (as you point out) of any recognition in the article of the chance of that happening given the attitude from the Tories over the last many years. We are 180 degrees and several light years away from a sensible approach to the SNP by those at Westminster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
What about if the UK government apply themselves to making policy that finds favour with more Scottish voters? Why would that not be a future for the union? They'd be ill-advised not to at least try. Pigs will fly before the more entrenched nationalist core have any truck with that but voters with less fixed mindsets are always open to reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
As even Sturgeon admitted the other day nobody can predict what the next few years hold.
When was the last time they tried? And even if they don’t, we just have to suck it up because the south of England will always be where the votes are.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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Let's hope so!Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
...and the chances of this are....Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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No, she doesn't. She doesn't really care as long as we're looking after people in Ashton-under-lyne, wherever that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
It's her constituency. Manchester somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
Is that not her job to do that then. 😳Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
So what she is really saying is that keeping Scotland is good for England?Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
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Yep, they can start doing that absolutely any time they like.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
The logical arguments for independence dissolve when that happens and you're left with the flag stuff. Emotional and identity issues are to be respected and not sniffed at imo, but they don't stand up on their own.
Such a little word, "if". Such a powerful little word.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Jan Moir is a thoroughly horrible human being. Some of the stuff she writes is just dreadful. I'm no fan of the royal family at all but her hatchet job on Diana Spencer in the mail when she died was utterly despicable. I'm sure she did a homophobic piece on Stephen gately when he died too.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Even by Daily Heil standards she is vile.
Mark McGeoghegan has had a similar article published in The Times. However, he has disagreed with the Times' interpretation of his own article!Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZ9iWRrX...jpg&name=large
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
She is talking about working class solidarity.
Can’t we have working class solidarity with working class people in the EU?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
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I find the whole situation depressing.
The U.K. government are just a shambles with no idea what to do. Their every move makes things worse in Scotland and they have no idea how we feel or why.
In Scotland we are split down the middle and disagreeing with each other. The leadership in Scotland is not good either and works on the basis of being both in power and opposition and no matter how bad can always point at the tories being worse.
It’s hard to see how we improve things either way without some bold action. But what and by whom.
Independence is how we make a start on improving things. Right now, we can’t do anything because we have to wait on England changing our govt for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
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:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Quote:
NICOLA Sturgeon is the most popular politician in Scotland by far, according to the latest polling from Redfield and Wilton Strategies.
Quote:
Nicola Sturgeon is best performing party leader, says UK-wide poll
Sturgeon is competent and the SNP have done a decent enough, but far from perfect, job IMO. Let’s be honest though, they’re as self serving as all the rest when push comes to shove. All parties and the vast majority of politicians are. Vive le revolution!Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
I guess it’s all a matter of opinion. It’s not hard to be better than Johnston. Or starmer.
Ross and sarwar no good either.
Sorry, M59, she isn't and even if she was it's a bogus concept. She's typical of Labour's approach to independence- they just can't comprehend why people would want it. She's made no attempt to understand it because all that matters to Labour is victory in England. Scotland’s role is to help deliver that. Saying the Brexit vote was enough is beyond irony.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
As for working class solidarity, that's just a dream. Dis the working group class of England care consider the working class of Scotland, let alone act in solidarity with them, when they voted for Brexit? And the Red Wall? And, away from the independence debate, when was the last time that workers at Plant A gave up their jobs in solidarity with the workers in closed-down Plant B, when the latter was selected over the former for closure? Never,and neither that should happen.
As always, the Scottish government are fighting with both hands tied behind their backs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
That’s not really true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
OK, one hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
That’s not true either as they have all the devolved powers. However I do understand why you would view it that wayQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Anyway we seemed to meet in the middle so that’s a positive. :-)
All the powers except the power to decide the appropriate level of funding for services. That is held by London as we can’t be trusted to make those decisions in Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
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:agree: Not cut out for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Worth a quote. "Not genetically programmed to make political decisions."Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
What a weirdo.
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Just catching up on this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Your 1st paragraph, why don't you try to get out of the current **** show?
Independence is an option for all Scots to change that.
I have always been willing to hear both sides of the independence argument but have always come to the decision that independence is a bad idea in my opinion. In the last few months I have swung firmly into the undecided camp, not through having any more faith than before in the Scottish government and their independence plans but rather due to the sheer incompetence of the Westminster government that I can’t see improving any time soon.
I’m still going to need answers to key questions such as what currency we will use, how our budget will look and how spending will be adjusted, and how we avoid a “hard border” with England if we rejoin the EU.
If the SG can answer these questions and a few others they might just be able to sway me and a few hundred thousand others to voting yes.
Also their planned solution to the energy and cost of living crisis would be nice.
The security blanket of being in the UK is both a paper and lead one. Every day that passes without Scotland becoming an independent nation makes the starting point of Scotland's recovery more difficult. To believe that the economic situation of Scotland whilst in the UK will improve means you have to believe that Brexit will be good for the UK. That's just utter lunacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul1642
My point is that it should no longer hard to convince people people that the UK isn’t all that great, but that doesn’t mean we should leap into leaving it without a decent plan. It such a plan exists share it and the people should be sold. If it doesn’t then we have issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
I still think the EU wasn’t perfect and that it had some pretty big issues. It doesn’t mean I thought leaving it was a good idea which has been proven correct.
I don’t want to see us make that mistake twice.
I’m not arguing against independence any more. I just want a plan rather than leaving something that’s not great = things will get better.
I'm all for plans, but there's a lot to be said for vision and flexibility. The house is on fire, grab the valuables, gtf out and see what you can salvage. And no, we're not like Brexit, we want to engage with our neighbours, including the rest UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul1642
Is this is why yes can’t get a majority despite Westminster being a shambles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Re your last point it does seem questionable to prioritise agitating for an independence referendum as the UK teeters on the brink of a year-long recession.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul1642
Now is not the time.[emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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...and if the UK was doing well (s******) you'd be saying why would we want to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
I'm sure the "broad shoulders" of the UK can handle both the recession caused by the Tories and the democratic process, or as you'd call it "agitation", towards a referendum.
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Especially with the UK being at war in Europe as well. Downright unpatriotic of Scots to want to vote in these circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
There's also really, really, really, important stuff like this to be doing while the country heads towards recession.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/...YJcjh5cAg&s=19
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Here's me thinking the civil service worked for the good of the whole country, weren't a political party or weren't employees of the nasty party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
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Put simply, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul1642
How was the recession 'caused' by the Tories? Rocketing energy and food costs are being driven largely by Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the pandemic - and are being felt far further afield than the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
What the Tories DO need to do is pull the finger out in dealing with it. The dragging out of the leadership election is absurd.
Profits from energy seem to be doing very, very well, better than ever in fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
12 years of austerity driven by ideology from the Tories while the rich got richer and ordinary people in work have to go without or go to food banks.
12 years to bring about a better way of life for everyone but wages are stagnant and profit soars.
A chunk of the cost of living crisis caused directly by brexit.
How are the Tories not responsible for these things?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Get on with the day job.
I know it’s not the absolute indicator of public opinion, but I was quite shocked at the vitriol aimed at Scotland for the period product initiative - this was Twitter so I know, pinch of salt. Almost every reply from English people was along the lines of “paid for by the English as usual”.
Quite saddening to see.
But yeah, union good, no union no good.
If the English were subsidising Scotland quite as much as they claim to be, wouldn't they want to get out as fast they could, just as with that other colony in the news this week, India? :dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
but what if the devolved colonies refused them permission to leave the UK union, we could refuse them a S30 or sommit like that
https://twitter.com/Anneofstirling/s...Oe1vrQzNg&s=19
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Different class seeing different news outlets reporting that, Scotland is the first country in the world to provide free sanitary products to women. Fair proud, seen it as far as cnn and even here a Belarusian freedom site I've been following due to Ukraine. Brilliant
https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/...62211696214016
This should have a health warning to not read the vitriolic replies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
I think the rise of English nationalism will mean that we won’t be getting love bombed from down south during the next indyref campaign the way we were last time. Just one of the ways this campaign will be very different from the last one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...cecae4e36f.jpg
Good news for the Indy camp.[emoji106]
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You have to wonder who these yes to nos are in those scenarios 🤔Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I was at a Fringe chat with Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar last week, both said if they lived here they'd be Yes voters, but (they admitted selfishly) they hoped we would stay because they live in England and don't want to lose a progressive block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Jones also said it would be wrong of him to write or campaign for a No though as it would be a bit colonialist
Not sure whether that's a poll of potential indy voters, or the general UK population. If general population, there will be some swayed by Sunak and Truss's recent 'we will not allow it' mantra.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibby rae
It’s a Scotland only poll.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
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Jockholmism the explanation for the Yes-to-Nos then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Dread to think what English politics will be like after we go
I think it'll be the jolt they need to for the non-Tories to *finally* get their act together and ditch fptp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
It'll take at least a 'generation' to see any changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
But they can happen swiftly e.g. in 1955 Scotland was more Tory than any other part of the UK and a majority voted for them.
Then we saw a continual slide away from them from that point onwards, whereas from the late 70s onwards England has shifted to the right.
The no-hard-border and rejoin EU is an impossible circle to square unfortunately. Well, assuming you mean an economic hard border? Freedom of movement along the lines of the existing Ireland-UK agreement ought to be possible but we won't get a softening of the customs/regulatory border. We could try for a half way house in the single market but not a full EU member arrangement like Switzerland or EEA Norway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul1642
It's all up for negotiation, I'd suggest. But hard borders have their uses. If you live next to a country that makes products that don't meet your regulatory / safety standards, you need a hard border to stop them selling their substandard stuff into your market. So let's not worry about the hard border, let's just not do business with people who don't meet our standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Well, nothing's impossible and the EU can certainly be flexible when it suits, see current Ireland border arrangements or absorption of E Germany. But it's certainly not a given there would be any special arrangement for us and I think it would be a huge campaigning own goal to do Brexit-style substance free handwaving. It might get you over the line in a ref but for Indy to work in the medium/longer term we really need people to buy into it with their eyes open.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
And yes, you're right, the EU single market has been a huge success, we want to buy into it, not undermine it.
I don’t think we need a special arrangement. We would likely stay out of Schengen which allows us to maintain the common travel area with the UK and Ireland. That will allow people to cross the border into England exactly the way they do now. If you are driving down to Newcastle you won’t even notice the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
The difference will be for businesses. Large border control areas will need to be constructed to allow freight vehicles to be checked etc. This should not be too difficult as there are only a few big roads crossing that border anyway and there is plenty space to construct a big enough facility to allow traffic to flow through as quickly as possible.
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If its got the uk government helping plan then obscene tailbacks are inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
As long as the French aren't involved, we should be OK...
Great initiative launched in Glasgow, giving 85,000 households a £105 shop local gift card to help with the cost of Union crisis.
Funding for the project has come from a £9.45m Covid Economic Recovery Funding package awarded to the council by the Scottish Government.
I was there too. I thought they were both very good, although not particularly pushed by Ian Dale, it was very 'soft gloves' treatment. I expect the vast majority of the English Left to empathise with Scots who want independence (can you take us Geordies with you as well?' is a common refrain I hear), but you'll get the main political Left voices also saying the Union is a good thing, please stay, because they don't want to lose the 'progressive' seats.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibby rae
But Jones' best point was that things change extremely quickly in politics. Only 15 years ago Labour seemed unassailable in Scotland and 65 years ago the Conservative and Unionist Party was the biggest party in Scotland. It seems at the moment that the populist right is in charge down south but that wont always necessarily be the case. The English Left need to prioritise getting their own act together and make a serious offer to the English electorate and not obsess about whether we Scots decide file for divorce. But in general I don't think the English Left will be a much of a factor in IndyRef either way to be honest.
So that’s where the Covid Funding for small businesses was spent, seems reasonable …..unless you are a SNP MP like Tommy Sheppard who on top of his MPs salary got an initial grant of £250k for his Sauce n Salt company and other top ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
Did this grant come because he was an mp or because his business was entitled to it the same way all businesses were?Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
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While I agree with most of what you've said I honestly can't see England and with it Westminster becoming more enlightened any time soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
I don't think Labour are in a fit state to win anything anywhere at the moment and there isn't even an inkling that will change to the extent they will prevail at Westminster.
No tory majority in Scotland for 65 years is longer than the life expectancy of all too many in Scotland!
In line with the more optimistic tone of your post ... would you expect an influx of people from rUK (if it was allowed) into Scotland following independence and what we hope will become a fairer, probably soft socialist country?
I can't see Scotland being soft socialist unfortunately. Snp are very central as they have to be. I'm sure there will be strong labour and tory parties. Their always could be pro nationalist and pro rejoin parties also, almost half of Scotland wants to be a part of ukQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack
If I was a betting man id definitely be putting my money on things staying depressingly the way they are for now in England, I agree. But its a valid point that Owen Jones makes to warn against certainty about anything. People can be swayed by two things 1. The Power of argument and 2. Actual events. There's no sign of any good arguments being made for a softer fairer UK at the moment, so #1 seems unlikely, but there's a good chance there's going to be some absolutely massive events (#2) in the form of recession/depression and some sort of societal breakdown, whether thats a general strike, rent strike, civil unrest, its hard to tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I wouldn’t say an influx but if we get things right I think our population will rise. It needs to anyway because of our ageing population. When a country is run well, people will come for the opportunities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
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Western countries can have as much immigration as they want. Its all relative but although we think it's the pits, we have a life most of the world can only dream of. The largest nations soon enough will be India and Nigeria, both have an easy route due to the commonwealth. Both are going to have very difficult population growth and climate emergenciesQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
You seem to be insinuating something underhand here. Care to elaborate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
Im sure those receiving the £105 card will benefit those small businesses in their local areas, as well as themselves.
Me neither, there's a large proportion of the English electorate who believe they are somehow superior to the rest of the world, so much so that even Labour have started targeting them by "flying the flag" more overtly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack