Scottish Independence

[The Modfather]

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Sturgeon is competent and the SNP have done a decent enough, but far from perfect, job IMO. Let’s be honest though, they’re as self serving as all the rest when push comes to shove. All parties and the vast majority of politicians are. Vive le revolution!

[Skol]

I guess it’s all a matter of opinion. It’s not hard to be better than Johnston. Or starmer.

Ross and sarwar no good either.

[Glory Lurker]

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She is talking about working class solidarity.

Sorry, M59, she isn't and even if she was it's a bogus concept. She's typical of Labour's approach to independence- they just can't comprehend why people would want it. She's made no attempt to understand it because all that matters to Labour is victory in England. Scotland’s role is to help deliver that. Saying the Brexit vote was enough is beyond irony.

As for working class solidarity, that's just a dream. Dis the working group class of England care consider the working class of Scotland, let alone act in solidarity with them, when they voted for Brexit? And the Red Wall? And, away from the independence debate, when was the last time that workers at Plant A gave up their jobs in solidarity with the workers in closed-down Plant B, when the latter was selected over the former for closure? Never,and neither that should happen.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I find the whole situation depressing.

The U.K. government are just a shambles with no idea what to do. Their every move makes things worse in Scotland and they have no idea how we feel or why.

In Scotland we are split down the middle and disagreeing with each other. The leadership in Scotland is not good either and works on the basis of being both in power and opposition and no matter how bad can always point at the tories being worse.

It’s hard to see how we improve things either way without some bold action. But what and by whom.

As always, the Scottish government are fighting with both hands tied behind their backs.

[Skol]

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As always, the Scottish government are fighting with both hands tied behind their backs.

That’s not really true.

[Hibrandenburg]

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That’s not really true.

OK, one hand.

[Skol]

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OK, one hand.

That’s not true either as they have all the devolved powers. However I do understand why you would view it that way

Anyway we seemed to meet in the middle so that’s a positive. :-)

[Ozyhibby]

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That’s not true either as they have all the devolved powers. However I do understand why you would view it that way

Anyway we seemed to meet in the middle so that’s a positive. :-)

All the powers except the power to decide the appropriate level of funding for services. That is held by London as we can’t be trusted to make those decisions in Scotland.


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[lapsedhibee]

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That is held by London as we can’t be trusted to make those decisions in Scotland.

Not cut out for it.

[Kato]

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Not cut out for it.

Worth a quote. "Not genetically programmed to make political decisions."

What a weirdo.

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[Hibee4421]

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[stoneyburn hibs]

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I find the whole situation depressing.

The U.K. government are just a shambles with no idea what to do. Their every move makes things worse in Scotland and they have no idea how we feel or why.

In Scotland we are split down the middle and disagreeing with each other. The leadership in Scotland is not good either and works on the basis of being both in power and opposition and no matter how bad can always point at the tories being worse.

It’s hard to see how we improve things either way without some bold action. But what and by whom.

Just catching up on this thread.
Your 1st paragraph, why don't you try to get out of the current **** show?
Independence is an option for all Scots to change that.

[Paul1642]

I have always been willing to hear both sides of the independence argument but have always come to the decision that independence is a bad idea in my opinion. In the last few months I have swung firmly into the undecided camp, not through having any more faith than before in the Scottish government and their independence plans but rather due to the sheer incompetence of the Westminster government that I can’t see improving any time soon.

I’m still going to need answers to key questions such as what currency we will use, how our budget will look and how spending will be adjusted, and how we avoid a “hard border” with England if we rejoin the EU.

If the SG can answer these questions and a few others they might just be able to sway me and a few hundred thousand others to voting yes.

Also their planned solution to the energy and cost of living crisis would be nice.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I have always been willing to hear both sides of the independence argument but have always come to the decision that independence is a bad idea in my opinion. In the last few months I have swung firmly into the undecided camp, not through having any more faith than before in the Scottish government and their independence plans but rather due to the sheer incompetence of the Westminster government that I can’t see improving any time soon.

I’m still going to need answers to key questions such as what currency we will use, how our budget will look and how spending will be adjusted, and how we avoid a “hard border” with England if we rejoin the EU.

If the SG can answer these questions and a few others they might just be able to sway me and a few hundred thousand others to voting yes.

Also their planned solution to the energy and cost of living crisis would be nice.

The security blanket of being in the UK is both a paper and lead one. Every day that passes without Scotland becoming an independent nation makes the starting point of Scotland's recovery more difficult. To believe that the economic situation of Scotland whilst in the UK will improve means you have to believe that Brexit will be good for the UK. That's just utter lunacy.

[Paul1642]

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The security blanket of being in the UK is both a paper and lead one. Every day that passes without Scotland becoming an independent nation makes the starting point of Scotland's recovery more difficult. To believe that the economic situation of Scotland whilst in the UK will improve means you have to believe that Brexit will be good for the UK. That's just utter lunacy.

My point is that it should no longer hard to convince people people that the UK isn’t all that great, but that doesn’t mean we should leap into leaving it without a decent plan. It such a plan exists share it and the people should be sold. If it doesn’t then we have issues.

I still think the EU wasn’t perfect and that it had some pretty big issues. It doesn’t mean I thought leaving it was a good idea which has been proven correct.

I don’t want to see us make that mistake twice.

I’m not arguing against independence any more. I just want a plan rather than leaving something that’s not great = things will get better.

[Hibrandenburg]

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My point is that it should no longer hard to convince people people that the UK isn’t all that great, but that doesn’t mean we should leap into leaving it without a decent plan. It such a plan exists share it and the people should be sold. If it doesn’t then we have issues.

I still think the EU wasn’t perfect and that it had some pretty big issues. It doesn’t mean I thought leaving it was a good idea which has been proven correct.

I don’t want to see us make that mistake twice.

I’m not arguing against independence any more. I just want a plan rather than leaving something that’s not great = things will get better.

I'm all for plans, but there's a lot to be said for vision and flexibility. The house is on fire, grab the valuables, gtf out and see what you can salvage. And no, we're not like Brexit, we want to engage with our neighbours, including the rest UK.

[Paul1642]

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I'm all for plans, but there's a lot to be said for vision and flexibility. The house is on fire, grab the valuables, gtf out and see what you can salvage. And no, we're not like Brexit, we want to engage with our neighbours, including the rest UK.

Is this is why yes can’t get a majority despite Westminster being a shambles.

[He's here!]

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I have always been willing to hear both sides of the independence argument but have always come to the decision that independence is a bad idea in my opinion. In the last few months I have swung firmly into the undecided camp, not through having any more faith than before in the Scottish government and their independence plans but rather due to the sheer incompetence of the Westminster government that I can’t see improving any time soon.

I’m still going to need answers to key questions such as what currency we will use, how our budget will look and how spending will be adjusted, and how we avoid a “hard border” with England if we rejoin the EU.

If the SG can answer these questions and a few others they might just be able to sway me and a few hundred thousand others to voting yes.

Also their planned solution to the energy and cost of living crisis would be nice.

Re your last point it does seem questionable to prioritise agitating for an independence referendum as the UK teeters on the brink of a year-long recession.

[Ozyhibby]

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Re your last point it does seem questionable to prioritise agitating for an independence referendum as the UK teeters on the brink of a year-long recession.

Now is not the time.


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[Kato]

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Re your last point it does seem questionable to prioritise agitating for an independence referendum as the UK teeters on the brink of a year-long recession.

...and if the UK was doing well (s******) you'd be saying why would we want to leave.

I'm sure the "broad shoulders" of the UK can handle both the recession caused by the Tories and the democratic process, or as you'd call it "agitation", towards a referendum.

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[lapsedhibee]

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Re your last point it does seem questionable to prioritise agitating for an independence referendum as the UK teeters on the brink of a year-long recession.

Especially with the UK being at war in Europe as well. Downright unpatriotic of Scots to want to vote in these circumstances.

[Kato]

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Especially with the UK being at war in Europe as well. Downright unpatriotic of Scots to want to vote in these circumstances.

There's also really, really, really, important stuff like this to be doing while the country heads towards recession.

https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/...YJcjh5cAg&s=19

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[Bostonhibby]

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There's also really, really, really, important stuff like this to be doing while the country heads towards recession.

https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/...YJcjh5cAg&s=19

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Here's me thinking the civil service worked for the good of the whole country, weren't a political party or weren't employees of the nasty party.

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[Hibrandenburg]

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Is this is why yes can’t get a majority despite Westminster being a shambles.

Put simply, no.

[He's here!]

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...and if the UK was doing well (s******) you'd be saying why would we want to leave.

I'm sure the "broad shoulders" of the UK can handle both the recession caused by the Tories and the democratic process, or as you'd call it "agitation", towards a referendum.

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How was the recession 'caused' by the Tories? Rocketing energy and food costs are being driven largely by Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the pandemic - and are being felt far further afield than the UK.

What the Tories DO need to do is pull the finger out in dealing with it. The dragging out of the leadership election is absurd.

[Kato]

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How was the recession 'caused' by the Tories? Rocketing energy and food costs are being driven largely by Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the pandemic - and are being felt far further afield than the UK.

What the Tories DO need to do is pull the finger out in dealing with it. The dragging out of the leadership election is absurd.

Profits from energy seem to be doing very, very well, better than ever in fact.

12 years of austerity driven by ideology from the Tories while the rich got richer and ordinary people in work have to go without or go to food banks.

12 years to bring about a better way of life for everyone but wages are stagnant and profit soars.

A chunk of the cost of living crisis caused directly by brexit.

How are the Tories not responsible for these things?

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[Keith_M]

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Now is not the time.

Get on with the day job.

[Jones28]

I know it’s not the absolute indicator of public opinion, but I was quite shocked at the vitriol aimed at Scotland for the period product initiative - this was Twitter so I know, pinch of salt. Almost every reply from English people was along the lines of “paid for by the English as usual”.

Quite saddening to see.

But yeah, union good, no union no good.

[lapsedhibee]

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I know it’s not the absolute indicator of public opinion, but I was quite shocked at the vitriol aimed at Scotland for the period product initiative - this was Twitter so I know, pinch of salt. Almost every reply from English people was along the lines of “paid for by the English as usual”.

Quite saddening to see.

But yeah, union good, no union no good.

If the English were subsidising Scotland quite as much as they claim to be, wouldn't they want to get out as fast they could, just as with that other colony in the news this week, India?

[cabbageandribs1875]

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If the English were subsidising Scotland quite as much as they claim to be, wouldn't they want to get out as fast they could, just as with that other colony in the news this week, India?

but what if the devolved colonies refused them permission to leave the UK union, we could refuse them a S30 or sommit like that