Scottish Independence

[Just Alf]

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I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

Your piece on holidays reflects what me and many others feels as well, it in no way conflicts with my desire for a Scottish Government to be making choices rather than Westminster though.

On the 2nd part, some sort of federal system was many folks preferred option, it was talked about but never progressed by the UK government so wasn't an option in a previous referendum. With regards to compromise, Westminster have made it clear in both word (ignore elected Scottish minister's) and action (introducing legislation that negatively impacts devolved powers) that they are not interested in entertaining any and unfortunately compromise needs both sides to participate.

[Ozyhibby]

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I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

There are 50 American states with more power than Scotland.

I’m sure an independent Scotland won’t ban holiday’s in Yorkshire.


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[Kato]

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I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

If your emotional enthusiam for the Union could be monetised the cost of living crisis would be over. But it can't. Nothing to stop you going to the next games if Scotland were independent.

You also seem tone deaf to the actual Party who is stoking hatred and who have the media clout to make that hatred palpable. After their "victory" against the EU their next target is the civil service, the judiciary and anyone who wants a social contract.

Sitting watching people jump and run is all well and good but ignoring the countries ruling Party which actually does spread hatred as a core of their policies, while pointing the finger at another makes your posts look wooly and slanted beyond the pale.

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[degenerated]

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I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

Put down the spade and step away from the hole.

[JeMeSouviens]

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There are 50 American states with more power than Scotland.

I’m sure an independent Scotland won’t ban holiday’s in Yorkshire.


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The wording is clever : "if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's".

That might be true, although the Basque Autonomous Community has more I think. But it cunningly gets round the fact that there are loads of federal countries where the federal states have more power. Unionists are banking on the fact that most people don't know the difference between a top-down unitary state with devolved regions where the centre has complete control and a bottom-up federation where the states come together via a constitution to empower a central government to act on their behalf in some areas.

Since "power devolved is power retained" and can be withdrawn by a simple majority in the Westminster parliament at any time, arguably *every* federal state in the world has more power than Scotland.

[Moulin Yarns]

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There are 50 American states with more power than Scotland.

I’m sure an independent Scotland won’t ban holiday’s in Yorkshire.


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Aye, but an independent Yorkshire would ban Scots 😉

[weecounty hibby]

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I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

Everything you accuse the Scottish government if is actually diametrically opposite where they actually are. Insular being probably the biggest example. Who chose to cut themselves off from the worlds most successful trading block? Who chose to limit freedom of movement both in and out of the uk?
Why would it be the SNPs fault if unionists can’t behave and follow normal democratic principles?
Federal and confederal? Now you’re just making stuff up. Federalism will never take place in the uk. Westminster simply won’t allow it as it takes control away from them. The uk is a busted flush. Whether you want independence or not it is a complete basket case. The uk government trumpets how fantastic the trade deals they have with Australia and New Zealand but actually the real beneficiaries are Aus and NZ.
Tories and their donors and pals all getting richer while people are choosing between eating and heating. There is a crisis in other countries as well but they are doing something to help. France for example have nationalised energy and capped price rises to 4%. Would never ever happen in the uk. It’s not even Labour Party policy now to nationalise industry. In fact Ofgem who should be helping have basically become an enabler by continuing to raise the price cap
Scotland can be different given the chance but sadly unionists don’t want to allow that as they see only the union and nothing else

[ronaldo7]

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I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

You do try, but branding the SNP "insular" is way out of bounds, even for you at St Andrews.

The only party that's got a way back into the European family of nations, whilst the rest of them want to "make Brexit work".

Nothing you've written in your first paragraph can't be done after independence. You're looking for excuses to fly a flag.

[grunt]

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I have not voted previously for independence and felt the timing of a new vote was wrong (post COVID) but I would now rather take my chances on our and future generations as an independent country with huge natural resources, innovation etc than continue with being part of Englands fascist corrupt, insular and self distructive agenda and direction.

I am ashamed to be part of the UK. It is completely broken and will never recover.

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??

Liz Truss: "I will legislate to make sure we can’t be disrupted by militant trade unions”.

I think Col2 is spot on. This is a criminal, corrupt, fascist Tory Government.

[He's here!]

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You do try, but branding the SNP "insular" is way out of bounds, even for you at St Andrews.

The only party that's got a way back into the European family of nations, whilst the rest of them want to "make Brexit work".

Nothing you've written in your first paragraph can't be done after independence. You're looking for excuses to fly a flag.

I'm not looking for any excuses. The point is that I am, always have felt and always will feel British and Scottish. A minority feeling on here but far from out of the ordinary among Scots. Maybe the fact I've spent so much of my life in all corners of the nation gives me a broader perspective, but losing that part of who I am would be a big deal for me, irrespective of who's in power at Westminster. Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.

[grunt]

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Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.

You're talking about the Tories here, right?

[degenerated]

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I'm not looking for any excuses. The point is that I am, always have felt and always will feel British and Scottish. A minority feeling on here but far from out of the ordinary among Scots. Maybe the fact I've spent so much of my life in all corners of the nation gives me a broader perspective, but losing that part of who I am would be a big deal for me, irrespective of who's in power at Westminster. Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.

What will stop you being British, nobody is proposing removing Scotland from the British isles.

[lapsedhibee]

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You're talking about the Tories here, right?

That's the party that introduced a border between Britain and Northern Ireland, so he must be.

[Kato]

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I'm not looking for any excuses. The point is that I am, always have felt and always will feel British and Scottish. A minority feeling on here but far from out of the ordinary among Scots. Maybe the fact I've spent so much of my life in all corners of the nation gives me a broader perspective, but losing that part of who I am would be a big deal for me, irrespective of who's in power at Westminster. Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.

Seems like you prefer a party who are breaking the people's backs for the sake of a bits of paper and a flag. England and Wales will still exist if Scotland cecedes, mate. I'm sure we will all get the same welcome we do now when we visit.

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[ronaldo7]

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I'm not looking for any excuses. The point is that I am, always have felt and always will feel British and Scottish. A minority feeling on here but far from out of the ordinary among Scots. Maybe the fact I've spent so much of my life in all corners of the nation gives me a broader perspective, but losing that part of who I am would be a big deal for me, irrespective of who's in power at Westminster. Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.

Who's taking that feeling of being British and Scottish from you?

[Skol]

I am probably different again in that I am 100% Scottish and it bugs me when I have to select British. When forms were filled in by hand I always wrote Scottish.

Only during olympics and particularly 2012 do I have a feeling of being British.

[Stairway 2 7]

Nationalism is a load of pish whether that is Scottish or British. I feel more kinship to a good person from Bangkok, Berlin or Birmingham than I do a sectarian ******** from Bellshill. Flag ****gers are the worst

[He's here!]

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Seems like you prefer a party who are breaking the people's backs for the sake of a bits of paper and a flag. England and Wales will still exist if Scotland cecedes, mate. I'm sure we will all get the same welcome we do now when we visit.

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Why all these references to flags? My one and only clear memory of waving a flag was when I took a home-made Hibs one (fashioned from old Subbuteo pitch!) to the 1985 League Cip final. As far as I'm aware the only significant body of Scots who are passionate about waving the Union Jack are Rangers fans and their brand of unionism is far removed from mine. In fact until 'unionist' became a catch-all term of disdain used by independence supporters I'd never have recognised it as applying to me.

I do find it distasteful that the Saltire has been appropriated as a symbol of independence, while the way Labour seem to have adopted the Union Jack as their party flag is a tad bizarre.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Why all these references to flags? My one and only clear memory of waving a flag was when I took a home-made Hibs one (fashioned from old Subbuteo pitch!) to the 1985 League Cip final. As far as I'm aware the only significant body of Scots who are passionate about waving the Union Jack are Rangers fans and their brand of unionism is far removed from mine. In fact until 'unionist' became a catch-all term of disdain used by independence supporters I'd never have recognised it as applying to me.

I do find it distasteful that the Saltire has been appropriated as a symbol of independence, while the way Labour seem to have adopted the Union Jack as their party flag is a tad bizarre.

I think Labour like the red bit. 😉

[Kato]

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Why all these references to flags? My one and only clear memory of waving a flag was when I took a home-made Hibs one (fashioned from old Subbuteo pitch!) to the 1985 League Cip final. As far as I'm aware the only significant body of Scots who are passionate about waving the Union Jack are Rangers fans and their brand of unionism is far removed from mine. In fact until 'unionist' became a catch-all term of disdain used by independence supporters I'd never have recognised it as applying to me.

I do find it distasteful that the Saltire has been appropriated as a symbol of independence, while the way Labour seem to have adopted the Union Jack as their party flag is a tad bizarre.

What I mean is that the piece of paper which binds the UK together and its flag are emotional symbols which match your purely emotional attachment to the Union. Symbolic not actual.

Those symbols seem to mean more to you than the actual state of the UK, how it is being led, the direction in which it is being led and the downward slope of living conditions being imposed on its population.



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[He's here!]

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What I mean is that the piece of paper which binds the UK together and its flag are emotional symbols which match your purely emotional attachment to the Union. Symbolic not actual.

Those symbols seem to mean more to you than the actual state of the UK, how it is being led, the direction in which it is being led and the downward slope of living conditions being imposed on its population.



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I think you underestimate the power of emotional attachment.

The flags are by the by.

[Ozyhibby]

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I think you underestimate the power of emotional attachment.

The flags are by the by.

I doubt there is anyone planning the yes campaign who under estimates that? They know good and well that if it comes down to emotional attachment, yes wins a landslide. And I’m sure Better Together 2 know that as well.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I like doug Stanhope on nationalism also immigration in there 😆

https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/comedy...n-nationalism/

[Kato]

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I think you underestimate the power of emotional attachment.

The flags are by the by.

Maybe I have understated it in that post and maybe what I also understated was my complete distain for it in the face of proof that all it is doing is self-harm.

Emotional attachment allowed Thatcher in again in 83 leading to the start of the dismantling of the social contract in this country.

Emotional attachment - the Brexit vote.

Emotional attachment - Boris Johnson and get brexit done.

When do emotions give way to pragmatism?

How is the UK doing in the face of all this emotional attachment?

(If you disagree that Thatchers 2nd term, brexit and Johnson becoming PM weren't emotionally driven I'd have to hear the pragmatic arguments for them)

Any vote I lend to the SNP is purely pragmatic, a hope that we can get away from the Torys' Right-Wing Project, which let's face it driven by Russian money and Russian needs.

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[grunt]

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I like doug Stanhope on nationalism also immigration in there ��

https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/comedy...n-nationalism/

Well it's one view, but it's a pretty myopic view I think.

What is your alternative?

If we don't get independence then we will forever be governed by people we don't vote for.
If it remains the current batch of Tories - and there's no indication to think otherwise - then they will continue to take us down the path of rightwing fascism where there is increasingly small support for the weaker in society. You may be happy with that, but I'm not.

In the absence of independence - built upon the nationalism you so despise - we in Scotland can kiss democracy goodbye.

So, yeah, very droll comedian take on nationalism, but it's not even half the story is it? Frankly if you take your political views from American libertarian comedians, then good luck to you.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Well it's one view, but it's a pretty myopic view I think.

What is your alternative?

If we don't get independence then we will forever be governed by people we don't vote for.
If it remains the current batch of Tories - and there's no indication to think otherwise - then they will continue to take us down the path of rightwing fascism where there is increasingly small support for the weaker in society. You may be happy with that, but I'm not.

In the absence of independence - built upon the nationalism you so despise - we in Scotland can kiss democracy goodbye.

So, yeah, very droll comedian take on nationalism, but it's not even half the story is it? Frankly if you take your political views from American libertarian comedians, then good luck to you.

Did you read it? I think it's pretty accurate.

There's nothing special about Scots people vs English people. The problem with the UK is centuries of history that have created a ****ed up, class ridden, post-imperially neurotic and criminally over-centralised system of governance and a ruling class resolutely invested in keeping it that way.

Scottish independence is our only way out of that in what's left of my lifetime and probably one of the few things that might shock England into doing at least a little bit about it.

[grunt]

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Did you read it? I think it's pretty accurate.

Yes I read it. I was put off immediately by the stupid, simplistic and plain wrong first sentence - my support for Scottish nationalism does not mean that I hate the English. Heck, I'm English myself! That is such a lazy thoughtless trope, I can't even think about it without getting angry.

My support for Scottish nationalism is grounded in the realisation that the way we want to run our lives up here is VERY different to the way the Tories want to run England. We either bow to their fascist ways or we go on our own. I vote for the latter.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Yes I read it. I was put off immediately by the stupid, simplistic and plain wrong first sentence - my support for Scottish nationalism does not mean that I hate the English. Heck, I'm English myself! That is such a lazy thoughtless trope, I can't even think about it without getting angry.

My support for Scottish nationalism is grounded in the realisation that the way we want to run our lives up here is VERY different to the way the Tories want to run England. We either bow to their fascist ways or we go on our own. I vote for the latter.

Yeah, it would be a lot simpler if we had a term in English similar to the Spanish/Catalan "independentista". Nationalism has dual meanings but yer man the comic is clearly talking about the "my country's better than yours" kind. A sentiment present among the wider Yes movement for sure, but not its driving force now, if it ever was. A sentiment rife among right wingers everywhere, very much including almost all Tories.

[He's here!]

Rayner on independence:

Labour's Angela Rayner sets out opposition to second IndyRef | STV News

[He's here!]

What Quebec can teach us about Scotland’s future if SNP’s independence gambit fails, by Mark McGeoghegan | HeraldScotland

I like this guy's sentiments but at present I fear it's wishful thinking...