Scottish Independence

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/Anneofstirling/s...Oe1vrQzNg&s=19

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[Stairway 2 7]

Different class seeing different news outlets reporting that, Scotland is the first country in the world to provide free sanitary products to women. Fair proud, seen it as far as cnn and even here a Belarusian freedom site I've been following due to Ukraine. Brilliant

https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/...62211696214016

[Moulin Yarns]

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https://twitter.com/Anneofstirling/s...Oe1vrQzNg&s=19

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This should have a health warning to not read the vitriolic replies.

[Ozyhibby]

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This should have a health warning to not read the vitriolic replies.

I think the rise of English nationalism will mean that we won’t be getting love bombed from down south during the next indyref campaign the way we were last time. Just one of the ways this campaign will be very different from the last one.


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[Ozyhibby]

Good news for the Indy camp.


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[hibby rae]

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Good news for the Indy camp.


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You have to wonder who these yes to nos are in those scenarios 🤔

[hibby rae]

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I think the rise of English nationalism will mean that we won’t be getting love bombed from down south during the next indyref campaign the way we were last time. Just one of the ways this campaign will be very different from the last one.


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I was at a Fringe chat with Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar last week, both said if they lived here they'd be Yes voters, but (they admitted selfishly) they hoped we would stay because they live in England and don't want to lose a progressive block.

Jones also said it would be wrong of him to write or campaign for a No though as it would be a bit colonialist

[lapsedhibee]

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You have to wonder who these yes to nos are in those scenarios ��

Not sure whether that's a poll of potential indy voters, or the general UK population. If general population, there will be some swayed by Sunak and Truss's recent 'we will not allow it' mantra.

[Ozyhibby]

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Not sure whether that's a poll of potential indy voters, or the general UK population. If general population, there will be some swayed by Sunak and Truss's recent 'we will not allow it' mantra.

It’s a Scotland only poll.


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[lapsedhibee]

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It’s a Scotland only poll.

Jockholmism the explanation for the Yes-to-Nos then?

[Stairway 2 7]

Dread to think what English politics will be like after we go

[JeMeSouviens]

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Dread to think what English politics will be like after we go

I think it'll be the jolt they need to for the non-Tories to *finally* get their act together and ditch fptp.

[hibby rae]

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Dread to think what English politics will be like after we go

It'll take at least a 'generation' to see any changes.

But they can happen swiftly e.g. in 1955 Scotland was more Tory than any other part of the UK and a majority voted for them.

Then we saw a continual slide away from them from that point onwards, whereas from the late 70s onwards England has shifted to the right.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I have always been willing to hear both sides of the independence argument but have always come to the decision that independence is a bad idea in my opinion. In the last few months I have swung firmly into the undecided camp, not through having any more faith than before in the Scottish government and their independence plans but rather due to the sheer incompetence of the Westminster government that I can’t see improving any time soon.

I’m still going to need answers to key questions such as what currency we will use, how our budget will look and how spending will be adjusted, and how we avoid a “hard border” with England if we rejoin the EU.

If the SG can answer these questions and a few others they might just be able to sway me and a few hundred thousand others to voting yes.

Also their planned solution to the energy and cost of living crisis would be nice.

The no-hard-border and rejoin EU is an impossible circle to square unfortunately. Well, assuming you mean an economic hard border? Freedom of movement along the lines of the existing Ireland-UK agreement ought to be possible but we won't get a softening of the customs/regulatory border. We could try for a half way house in the single market but not a full EU member arrangement like Switzerland or EEA Norway.

[grunt]

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The no-hard-border and rejoin EU is an impossible circle to square unfortunately. Well, assuming you mean an economic hard border? Freedom of movement along the lines of the existing Ireland-UK agreement ought to be possible but we won't get a softening of the customs/regulatory border. We could try for a half way house in the single market but not a full EU member arrangement like Switzerland or EEA Norway.

It's all up for negotiation, I'd suggest. But hard borders have their uses. If you live next to a country that makes products that don't meet your regulatory / safety standards, you need a hard border to stop them selling their substandard stuff into your market. So let's not worry about the hard border, let's just not do business with people who don't meet our standards.

[JeMeSouviens]

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It's all up for negotiation, I'd suggest. But hard borders have their uses. If you live next to a country that makes products that don't meet your regulatory / safety standards, you need a hard border to stop them selling their substandard stuff into your market. So let's not worry about the hard border, let's just not do business with people who don't meet our standards.

Well, nothing's impossible and the EU can certainly be flexible when it suits, see current Ireland border arrangements or absorption of E Germany. But it's certainly not a given there would be any special arrangement for us and I think it would be a huge campaigning own goal to do Brexit-style substance free handwaving. It might get you over the line in a ref but for Indy to work in the medium/longer term we really need people to buy into it with their eyes open.

And yes, you're right, the EU single market has been a huge success, we want to buy into it, not undermine it.

[Ozyhibby]

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Well, nothing's impossible and the EU can certainly be flexible when it suits, see current Ireland border arrangements or absorption of E Germany. But it's certainly not a given there would be any special arrangement for us and I think it would be a huge campaigning own goal to do Brexit-style substance free handwaving. It might get you over the line in a ref but for Indy to work in the medium/longer term we really need people to buy into it with their eyes open.

And yes, you're right, the EU single market has been a huge success, we want to buy into it, not undermine it.

I don’t think we need a special arrangement. We would likely stay out of Schengen which allows us to maintain the common travel area with the UK and Ireland. That will allow people to cross the border into England exactly the way they do now. If you are driving down to Newcastle you won’t even notice the difference.
The difference will be for businesses. Large border control areas will need to be constructed to allow freight vehicles to be checked etc. This should not be too difficult as there are only a few big roads crossing that border anyway and there is plenty space to construct a big enough facility to allow traffic to flow through as quickly as possible.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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I don’t think we need a special arrangement. We would likely stay out of Schengen which allows us to maintain the common travel area with the UK and Ireland. That will allow people to cross the border into England exactly the way they do now. If you are driving down to Newcastle you won’t even notice the difference.
The difference will be for businesses. Large border control areas will need to be constructed to allow freight vehicles to be checked etc. This should not be too difficult as there are only a few big roads crossing that border anyway and there is plenty space to construct a big enough facility to allow traffic to flow through as quickly as possible.


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If its got the uk government helping plan then obscene tailbacks are inevitable.

[Keith_M]

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If its got the uk government helping plan then obscene tailbacks are inevitable.

As long as the French aren't involved, we should be OK...

[ronaldo7]

Great initiative launched in Glasgow, giving 85,000 households a £105 shop local gift card to help with the cost of Union crisis.

Funding for the project has come from a £9.45m Covid Economic Recovery Funding package awarded to the council by the Scottish Government.

[hibsbollah]

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I was at a Fringe chat with Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar last week, both said if they lived here they'd be Yes voters, but (they admitted selfishly) they hoped we would stay because they live in England and don't want to lose a progressive block.

Jones also said it would be wrong of him to write or campaign for a No though as it would be a bit colonialist

I was there too. I thought they were both very good, although not particularly pushed by Ian Dale, it was very 'soft gloves' treatment. I expect the vast majority of the English Left to empathise with Scots who want independence (can you take us Geordies with you as well?' is a common refrain I hear), but you'll get the main political Left voices also saying the Union is a good thing, please stay, because they don't want to lose the 'progressive' seats.

But Jones' best point was that things change extremely quickly in politics. Only 15 years ago Labour seemed unassailable in Scotland and 65 years ago the Conservative and Unionist Party was the biggest party in Scotland. It seems at the moment that the populist right is in charge down south but that wont always necessarily be the case. The English Left need to prioritise getting their own act together and make a serious offer to the English electorate and not obsess about whether we Scots decide file for divorce. But in general I don't think the English Left will be a much of a factor in IndyRef either way to be honest.

[Berwickhibby]

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Great initiative launched in Glasgow, giving 85,000 households a £105 shop local gift card to help with the cost of Union crisis.

Funding for the project has come from a £9.45m Covid Economic Recovery Funding package awarded to the council by the Scottish Government.

So that’s where the Covid Funding for small businesses was spent, seems reasonable …..unless you are a SNP MP like Tommy Sheppard who on top of his MPs salary got an initial grant of £250k for his Sauce n Salt company and other top ups.

[Ozyhibby]

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So that’s where the Covid Funding for small businesses was spent, seems reasonable …..unless you are a SNP MP like Tommy Sheppard who on top of his MPs salary got an initial grant of £250k for his Sauce n Salt company and other top ups.

Did this grant come because he was an mp or because his business was entitled to it the same way all businesses were?


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[Jack]

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I was there too. I thought they were both very good, although not particularly pushed by Ian Dale, it was very 'soft gloves' treatment. I expect the vast majority of the English Left to empathise with Scots who want independence (can you take us Geordies with you as well?' is a common refrain I hear), but you'll get the main political Left voices also saying the Union is a good thing, please stay, because they don't want to lose the 'progressive' seats.

But Jones' best point was that things change extremely quickly in politics. Only 15 years ago Labour seemed unassailable in Scotland and 65 years ago the Conservative and Unionist Party was the biggest party in Scotland. It seems at the moment that the populist right is in charge down south but that wont always necessarily be the case. The English Left need to prioritise getting their own act together and make a serious offer to the English electorate and not obsess about whether we Scots decide file for divorce. But in general I don't think the English Left will be a much of a factor in IndyRef either way to be honest.

While I agree with most of what you've said I honestly can't see England and with it Westminster becoming more enlightened any time soon.

I don't think Labour are in a fit state to win anything anywhere at the moment and there isn't even an inkling that will change to the extent they will prevail at Westminster.

No tory majority in Scotland for 65 years is longer than the life expectancy of all too many in Scotland!

In line with the more optimistic tone of your post ... would you expect an influx of people from rUK (if it was allowed) into Scotland following independence and what we hope will become a fairer, probably soft socialist country?

[Stairway 2 7]

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While I agree with most of what you've said I honestly can't see England and with it Westminster becoming more enlightened any time soon.

I don't think Labour are in a fit state to win anything anywhere at the moment and there isn't even an inkling that will change to the extent they will prevail at Westminster.

No tory majority in Scotland for 65 years is longer than the life expectancy of all too many in Scotland!

In line with the more optimistic tone of your post ... would you expect an influx of people from rUK (if it was allowed) into Scotland following independence and what we hope will become a fairer, probably soft socialist country?

I can't see Scotland being soft socialist unfortunately. Snp are very central as they have to be. I'm sure there will be strong labour and tory parties. Their always could be pro nationalist and pro rejoin parties also, almost half of Scotland wants to be a part of uk

[hibsbollah]

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While I agree with most of what you've said I honestly can't see England and with it Westminster becoming more enlightened any time soon.

I don't think Labour are in a fit state to win anything anywhere at the moment and there isn't even an inkling that will change to the extent they will prevail at Westminster.

No tory majority in Scotland for 65 years is longer than the life expectancy of all too many in Scotland!

In line with the more optimistic tone of your post ... would you expect an influx of people from rUK (if it was allowed) into Scotland following independence and what we hope will become a fairer, probably soft socialist country?

If I was a betting man id definitely be putting my money on things staying depressingly the way they are for now in England, I agree. But its a valid point that Owen Jones makes to warn against certainty about anything. People can be swayed by two things 1. The Power of argument and 2. Actual events. There's no sign of any good arguments being made for a softer fairer UK at the moment, so #1 seems unlikely, but there's a good chance there's going to be some absolutely massive events (#2) in the form of recession/depression and some sort of societal breakdown, whether thats a general strike, rent strike, civil unrest, its hard to tell.

[Ozyhibby]

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While I agree with most of what you've said I honestly can't see England and with it Westminster becoming more enlightened any time soon.

I don't think Labour are in a fit state to win anything anywhere at the moment and there isn't even an inkling that will change to the extent they will prevail at Westminster.

No tory majority in Scotland for 65 years is longer than the life expectancy of all too many in Scotland!

In line with the more optimistic tone of your post ... would you expect an influx of people from rUK (if it was allowed) into Scotland following independence and what we hope will become a fairer, probably soft socialist country?

I wouldn’t say an influx but if we get things right I think our population will rise. It needs to anyway because of our ageing population. When a country is run well, people will come for the opportunities.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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I wouldn’t say an influx but if we get things right I think our population will rise. It needs to anyway because of our ageing population. When a country is run well, people will come for the opportunities.


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Western countries can have as much immigration as they want. Its all relative but although we think it's the pits, we have a life most of the world can only dream of. The largest nations soon enough will be India and Nigeria, both have an easy route due to the commonwealth. Both are going to have very difficult population growth and climate emergencies

[ronaldo7]

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So that’s where the Covid Funding for small businesses was spent, seems reasonable …..unless you are a SNP MP like Tommy Sheppard who on top of his MPs salary got an initial grant of £250k for his Sauce n Salt company and other top ups.

You seem to be insinuating something underhand here. Care to elaborate.

Im sure those receiving the £105 card will benefit those small businesses in their local areas, as well as themselves.

[Hibrandenburg]

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While I agree with most of what you've said I honestly can't see England and with it Westminster becoming more enlightened any time soon.

I don't think Labour are in a fit state to win anything anywhere at the moment and there isn't even an inkling that will change to the extent they will prevail at Westminster.

No tory majority in Scotland for 65 years is longer than the life expectancy of all too many in Scotland!

In line with the more optimistic tone of your post ... would you expect an influx of people from rUK (if it was allowed) into Scotland following independence and what we hope will become a fairer, probably soft socialist country?

Me neither, there's a large proportion of the English electorate who believe they are somehow superior to the rest of the world, so much so that even Labour have started targeting them by "flying the flag" more overtly.