Hamas attack on Israel

[MKHIBEE]

That biased piece is before Israel released its new videos with the tunnels going for hundreds of meters away from the hospital. They are also the same as the other Hamas tunnels.

I saw an Al Jazeera piece yesterday saying the video released on Sunday was faked. They say it was 2 videos spliced i believe you said similar. They say the first shaft was beside the hospital then they cut to clear hamas tunnels. They have been silent since Israel released dozens of videos showing this wasn't the case and there is a labyrinth of tunnels that also goes underneath.

Regardless of when they were built they clearly have modern upgrades like aircon and telephones. They are under the hospital and have multiple exit points. The evidence gets clearer daily

You would be hard pressed to find a piece that was not to some extent biased, neither side and its supporters can claim the moral high ground when it comes to objectivity.

[Stairway 2 7]

It’s gone beyond who said this and who said what. It’s difficult to argue now that Hamas aren’t using tunnels under the hospital, whoever may have built what originally. Such actions by Hamas affect the protection offered to the hospitals in times of conflict . Hamas use as a military compound does not give the Israelis carte Blanche to do what they like in and around the hospital. It’s all about “proportionality’. IMO Isreal have acted outwith reasonable proportionality. As they have done for 75 years.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that I think you'd have to be biased to say that Israel has used any proportionality or respect for human lives throughout this. People saying whatabout dresden to defeat Hitler. I'd hope if the uk had precision weapons satellite imagery and a absolutely massive military advantage they wouldn't have destroyed a city, yet here we are with Israel doing that

[Moulin Yarns]

https://streetartutopia.com/2023/10/18/street-art-by-banksy-in-gaza-palestine/?fbclid=IwAR1mCV8zuXgeml8i6CDoi69iEUhNZKx0AxlbRvZW 8naLiJBdrKh13qSWq_Q


Have a look at this, watch the video. This is a powerful piece. How did he get in and out though?

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/drloupis/status/1728015552193364323?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MKHIBEE]

https://x.com/drloupis/status/1728015552193364323?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Add to the list of many heinous things the Israeli “ Defence”:force engage in daily

[cabbageandribs1875]

organisers asked the wee fart not to appear Antisemitism protest: Tommy Robinson arrested | Watch (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/video/news/antisemitism-protest-tommy-robinson-arrested/vi-AA1kyajw?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e84abe7fd01c48828df4dfcd90fc31b9&ei=60) but appear he did, telling the cops he was there in his role as a journalist, not quite right in the head

[Hibs4185]

organisers asked the wee fart not to appear Antisemitism protest: Tommy Robinson arrested | Watch (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/video/news/antisemitism-protest-tommy-robinson-arrested/vi-AA1kyajw?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e84abe7fd01c48828df4dfcd90fc31b9&ei=60) but appear he did, telling the cops he was there in his role as a journalist, not quite right in the head

Tommy Robinson is an absolute *anny and I detest everything he stands for but the police treatment of him is worrying compared to some of the light touch policing of other marches.

30 odd police officers and pepper spray, he wasn’t exactly kicking off. Although his defence of journalism and free press is a bit of a joke

[Ozyhibby]

Two more days added to the ceasefire.[emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]


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[Jones28]

Tommy Robinson is an absolute *anny and I detest everything he stands for but the police treatment of him is worrying compared to some of the light touch policing of other marches.

30 odd police officers and pepper spray, he wasn’t exactly kicking off. Although his defence of journalism and free press is a bit of a joke

Shame.

[MKHIBEE]

Two more days added to the ceasefire.[emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is, obviously, good news for many reasons.
However, it more people are released on both sides, the Israelis will
just arrest more Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, as they have done over the last 4 days

[Ozyhibby]

That is, obviously, good news for many reasons.
However, it more people are released on both sides, the Israelis will
just arrest more Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, as they have done over the last 4 days

Unfortunately, hostage taking has been the MO of both sides in this for years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stokesmessiah]

Really harrowing images online of the two boys being hit by sniper fire and killed in Jenin today. The IDGAF claim they were throwing explosive devices….apparently rocks are explosive these days.

[MKHIBEE]

Really harrowing images online of the two boys being hit by sniper fire and killed in Jenin today. The IDGAF claim they were throwing explosive devices….apparently rocks are explosive these days.
The Israelis are not doing anything they haven’t been doing for years. Watching the young boy getting shot was harrowing. I didn’t see any rocks being thrown, even if they were it’s still unacceptable. No doubt the murderer will be free to murder again

[Moulin Yarns]

Really harrowing images online of the two boys being hit by sniper fire and killed in Jenin today. The IDGAF claim they were throwing explosive devices….apparently rocks are explosive these days.

Ceasefire, only in name and only where it suits them.

[Stairway 2 7]

Ceasefire, only in name and only where it suits them.

It's only a ceasefire in Gaza not that that doesn't make it not abhorrent

[MKHIBEE]

Ceasefire, only in name and only where it suits them.
Isreal is allowed to do as it wants, when it wants, with no hindrance from the western powers. The ceasefire allows hostages to be returned to Isreal, while for every Palestinian freed an above equal number are arrested and jailed. While allowing 700,000 Israeli “settlers” to illegally acquire land and houses in the occupied West Bank. The west is complicit in this debacle. Hopefully the western powers will ensure that the Palestinians achieve some sort of state when this is all done

[MKHIBEE]

It’s not much in the great scheme of things but it’s a small step in the right direction.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/us-announces-visa-bans-after-warning-israel-on-west-bank-settler-violence (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/us-announces-visa-bans-after-warning-israel-on-west-bank-settler-violence)

[Ozyhibby]

It’s not much in the great scheme of things but it’s a small step in the right direction.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/us-announces-visa-bans-after-warning-israel-on-west-bank-settler-violence (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/us-announces-visa-bans-after-warning-israel-on-west-bank-settler-violence)

A lot of the settlers are American and I doubt they will issue many visa restrictions anyway.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Isreal is allowed to do as it wants, when it wants, with no hindrance from the western powers. The ceasefire allows hostages to be returned to Isreal, while for every Palestinian freed an above equal number are arrested and jailed. While allowing 700,000 Israeli “settlers” to illegally acquire land and houses in the occupied West Bank. The west is complicit in this debacle. Hopefully the western powers will ensure that the Palestinians achieve some sort of state when this is all done
The west aren't just complicit, they are largely responsible.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I can't help but feel that with Israel basically completely getting away with what they're doing, there's going to be horrendous and far reaching consequences for everyone.

[stokesmessiah]

I can't help but feel that with Israel basically completely getting away with what they're doing, there's going to be horrendous and far reaching consequences for everyone.

In what sense?

[AgentDaleCooper]

In what sense?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67659296

stuff like this...i just don't know how relations can be remotely normalised in the region after this - I worry that the Arab states, particularly Lebanon and Iran, won't be able to stand by if this continues, and that you then get the cascade of Iran pulling in Russia and the US ever closer to direct combat...and then we're hooped.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67659296

stuff like this...i just don't know how relations can be remotely normalised in the region after this - I worry that the Arab states, particularly Lebanon and Iran, won't be able to stand by if this continues, and that you then get the cascade of Iran pulling in Russia and the US ever closer to direct combat...and then we're hooped.
Russia aren't fighting the US in direct combat, they are using all their might to have a stalemate with a country using 1970s equipment. Countries like Finland and Poland would walk through Russia in a week.
Iran are using their proxies to attack the US quite openly in Iraq and they funded the Hamas slaughter on Oct 7th pretty openly too, they won't fight head on, more likely doing nuclear deals together same with Qatar.

Israel will take out Hamas via thousands more civilians then pull out and the world will forget about it as they continue to resettle and steal land.

This isn't new they have been doing it for decades. Although Putin stole Crimea committed genocide on the local Tatars resettled millions of people in Crimea and people didn't say a word, not one march. Assad openly gassed his on people flattened Aleppo and killed thousands of children doing it, no marches there either.

Venezuela is currently trying to conquer half of Guyana and I don't any nation will do anything either

[grunt]

So US is the sole country to vote against UN resolution for a ceasefire, and UK abstains.

This WM Government is out to make the UK a pariah state. Not in my name.

[MKHIBEE]

So US is the sole country to vote against UN resolution for a ceasefire, and UK abstains.

This WM Government is out to make the UK a pariah state. Not in my name.

The US routinely vetoes any UN resolution with regards to holding Isreal account for its barbarism so no surprise there

[Stairway 2 7]

Hamas had the choice to release more prisoners for an extended ceasefire but refused...

Hopefully Hamas gets wiped out and then Netanyahus evil regime falls

[MKHIBEE]

Hamas had the choice to release more prisoners for an extended ceasefire but refused...

Hopefully Hamas gets wiped out and then Netanyahus evil regime falls

Where are you seeing this?

[Stairway 2 7]

Where are you seeing this?

Everywhere. It was 20 prisoners for every day. They say they aren't releasing men or the last 10 women. US government say the last women aren't being released due to them being raped.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/international/4341659-us-official-says-hamas-trying-to-hide-treatment-of-women-hostages/amp/


Don't know how true that is but it's undeniable that Hamas used mass rape as a weapon. Weirdos holding signs in the uk praising Hamas should be on a watch list. Worth a read for people thinking it isn't two evils colliding
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp

[MKHIBEE]

[QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7525268]Everywhere. It was 20 prisoners for every day. They say they aren't releasing men or the last 10 women. US government say the last women aren't being released due to them being raped.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/international/4341659-us-official-says-hamas-trying-to-hide-treatment-of-women-hostages/amp/


Don't know how true that is but it's undeniable that Hamas used mass rape as a weapon. Weirdos holding signs in the uk praising Hamas should be on a watch list. Worth a read for people thinking it isn't two evils colliding
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp[/

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/despite-lack-of-evidence-allegations-of-hamas-mass-rape-are-fueling-israeli-genocide-in-gaza/

[MKHIBEE]

Hamas had the choice to release more prisoners for an extended ceasefire but refused...

Hopefully Hamas gets wiped out and then Netanyahus evil regime falls


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/29/analysis-why-extending-the-israel-hamas-truce-wont-be-easy

[Stairway 2 7]

[QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7525268]Everywhere. It was 20 prisoners for every day. They say they aren't releasing men or the last 10 women. US government say the last women aren't being released due to them being raped.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/international/4341659-us-official-says-hamas-trying-to-hide-treatment-of-women-hostages/amp/


Don't know how true that is but it's undeniable that Hamas used mass rape as a weapon. Weirdos holding signs in the uk praising Hamas should be on a watch list. Worth a read for people thinking it isn't two evils colliding
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp[/

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/despite-lack-of-evidence-allegations-of-hamas-mass-rape-are-fueling-israeli-genocide-in-gaza/
That's one of the most messed up responses I've seen on here. Women that were raped at the festival gave there testimony journalist and UN staff were shown footage. If your searching for the other side of the story leads you to perverted rape denials your on the wrong side of the Internet.

It's not tv you don't need good guys and bad guys. Hamas bizarrely denies atrocities even with go pro footage of them slaughtering kids and woman walking with blood coming from the crotch of their trousers.

Here's the primal scream of the mother of Naama one of the girls with bloodied trousers.

https://archive.ph/5K0sb

Truth usually lies in the middle. I wouldn't necessarily trust Israel, Hamas, the US or Al Jazeera Qatar owned funders of Hamas

[Stairway 2 7]

[QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7525323][QUOTE=MKHIBEE;7525296]
That's one of the most messed up responses I've seen on here. Women that were raped at the festival gave there testimony journalist and UN staff were shown footage. If your searching for the other side of the story leads you to perverted rape denials your on the wrong side of the Internet.

It's not tv you don't need good guys and bad guys. Hamas bizarrely denies atrocities even with go pro footage of them slaughtering kids and woman walking with blood coming from the crotch of their trousers.

Here's the primal scream of the mother of Naama one of the girls with bloodied trousers.

https://archive.ph/5K0sb

Truth usually lies in the middle. I wouldn't necessarily trust Israel,

Hamas, the US or Al Jazeera Qatar owned funders of Hamas[/



The perversion is in your reply. I posted, without comment, a story on the issue being discussed.You then come up with a load of fantasist nonsense about tv, bad guys, good guys and perverted rape denials. You do remember the “ beheaded babies” lie.? I have absolutely no doubt that there are many primal screams being used in Gaza and Isreal right now.Whether these rape accounts are all true, partly true, made up or whatever, I have no idea.There are a number of points around this issue that demand caution. As I’m sure you are aware, the first casualty in war is truth. On both sides. As an aside do you have evidence that Al Jazeera fund Hamas?

Qatar funds Hamas and shelters the leaders, Al Jazeera is owned by the same people. Not believing rape victims and independent observers isn't nuanced or showing caution its misogyny or antisemitism.

[MKHIBEE]

[QUOTE=MKHIBEE;7525296]
That's one of the most messed up responses I've seen on here. Women that were raped at the festival gave there testimony journalist and UN staff were shown footage. If your searching for the other side of the story leads you to perverted rape denials your on the wrong side of the Internet.

It's not tv you don't need good guys and bad guys. Hamas bizarrely denies atrocities even with go pro footage of them slaughtering kids and woman walking with blood coming from the crotch of their trousers.

Here's the primal scream of the mother of Naama one of the girls with bloodied trousers.

https://archive.ph/5K0sb

Truth usually lies in the middle. I wouldn't necessarily trust Israel, Hamas, the US or Al Jazeera Qatar owned funders of Hamas
The perversion is in your reply. I posted, without comment, a story on the issue being discussed.You then come up with a load of fantasist nonsense about tv, bad guys, good guys and perverted rape denials. You do remember the “ beheaded babies” lie.? I have absolutely no doubt that there are many primal screams being used in Gaza and Isreal right now.Whether these rape accounts are all true, partly true, made up or whatever, I have no idea.There are a number of points around this issue that demand caution. As I’m sure you are aware, the first casualty in war is truth. On both sides. As an aside do you have evidence that Al Jazeera fund Hamas?

[MKHIBEE]

[QUOTE=MKHIBEE;7525334][QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7525323]

Qatar funds Hamas and shelters the leaders, Al Jazeera is owned by the same people. Not believing rape victims and independent observers isn't nuanced or showing caution its misogyny or antisemitism.


I know the leaders are in Qatar. I asked if you had evidence Al Jazeera funded Hamas. I suggest if you haven’t it’s best not to double down on such a claim.

[Stairway 2 7]

[QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7525345][QUOTE=MKHIBEE;7525334]


I know the leaders are in Qatar. I asked if you had evidence Al Jazeera funded Hamas. I suggest if you haven’t it’s best not to double down on such a claim.

No Qatar funds Hamas its not even disputed and Al Jazeera is Qatari state owned. Obviously al Jazeera doesn't fund Hamas its a media channel, its owners do its not that complicated a web

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/lretnzx9l

[Stairway 2 7]

Pretty interesting while almost no one over 65 doesn't believe, around 20% of under 35s don't believe the holocaust happened. Antisemitism is a massive problem, we should maybe be like Germany and take it seriously.
27468


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/media/2019/may/20/al-jazeera-suspends-two-journalists-over-offensive-holocaust-report

Al-Jazeera has suspended two journalists after they published a video that suggested Jews had exploited their supposed control of media, financial and academic institutions to exaggerate the extent of the Holocaust.

The video was uploaded with the caption: “The gas chambers killed millions of Jews … So the story says. How true is the #Holocaust and how did the Zionists benefit from it?”

[MKHIBEE]

[QUOTE=MKHIBEE;7525350][QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7525345]

No Qatar funds Hamas its not even disputed and Al Jazeera is Qatari state owned. Obviously al Jazeera doesn't fund Hamas its a media channel, its owners do its not that complicated a web

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/lretnzx9l

Your previous comment

“Truth usually lies in the middle. I wouldn't necessarily trust Israel, Hamas, the US or Al Jazeera Qatar owned funders of Hamas”

[Stairway 2 7]

[QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7525351][QUOTE=MKHIBEE;7525350]

Your previous comment

“Truth usually lies in the middle. I wouldn't necessarily trust Israel, Hamas, the US or Al Jazeera Qatar owned funders of Hamas”

Yes I meant Qatar are the funders of Hamas, I made that pretty clear in multiple replies to be fair. Al Jazeera couldn't possibly be claimed to be impartial, either could the times of Israel.

[MKHIBEE]

[QUOTE=MKHIBEE;7525364][QUOTE=Stairway 2 7;7525351]

Yes I meant Qatar are the funders of Hamas, I made that pretty clear in multiple replies to be fair. Al Jazeera couldn't possibly be claimed to be impartial, either could the times of Israel.
Fair enough. I have no doubt you are right

[Pretty Boy]

I was at Mass this morning.

It's the 2nd Sunday of Advent and the 2nd candle on the wreath symbolises peace. In some Christian traditions it is also called the Bethlehem Candle. This year the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem is to remain in darkness throughout Advent and Christmastide and the Patriarchs and Bishops of the various denominations who multilaterally officiate the Church have asked Christians around the world who light candles on the Advent wreath to refrain from lighting the 2nd candle both today and in the coming weeks as a gesture of solidarity.

Of course some may see that as tokenism and as a futile gesture and I understand that. The decision to leave the Nativity Church in darkness is at least in part because it was felt it was inappropriate to show overt signs of celebration in the West Bank given the events in Gaza. There is a deeper reason though. Christians in the West Bank, along with their Muslim neighbours, are regularly subjected to low level intimidation and their access to their places of worship is periodically interrupted by the IDF and local armed 'settlers'. Anecdotally this is increasingly the case in Bethlehem. It has certainly been seen at Easter in recent years with members of the Orthodox Churches denied access to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem for the Holy Fire ceremony and other pilgrims intermittently verbally abused or spat upon.

I daresay for many such things are largely irrelevant. There's little love for organised religion so who cares? However when you see images today of the Israeli flag planted right in the centre of Gaza City and Palestinians being told to move even further south (final destination Egypt?), when you see Muslims regularly denied entry to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Christians finding entry to their places of worship and pilgrimage increasingly difficult and the currently escalating, but under reported, driving of Christians and Muslims out of their homes in the West Bank then it starts to seem relevant. It feels like we have gone from seeing a potentially understandable if disproportionate response to Hamas violence to now seeing an assertion of religious extremism playing out in real time and rather than condemnation from around the world it's being done with international approval, tacit or otherwise.

It's almost impossible to see how this current situation ends with a two state solution and shared governance of religious sites ever being back on the table. Israel now knows that there is no requirement to make such concessions.

[MKHIBEE]

A view on the possibility of a 2 state solution to the present conflict
https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-two-state-solution-is-a-smokescreen-for-israels-ethnic-cleansing/

[Pretty Boy]

A view on the possibility of a 2 state solution to the present conflict
https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-two-state-solution-is-a-smokescreen-for-israels-ethnic-cleansing/

'....final settlement of the entire Gaza population.'

Such rhetoric is chilling from anyone but placed in the context of it coming from the mouth of the leader of a Jewish state makes it seem even moreso.

[Stairway 2 7]

There's been similar articles but decent from NY Times on how Netanyahu fearful of a strong PA let Qatar fund Hamas and keep them in power. Netanyahu will be voted out as soon as the war ends

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

[Ozyhibby]

There's been similar articles but decent from NY Times on how Netanyahu fearful of a strong PA let Qatar fund Hamas and keep them in power. Netanyahu will be voted out as soon as the war ends

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

Which means he has an interest in prolonging it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Which means he has an interest in prolonging it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nothing but full destruction of Hamas's Gaza leadership will suffice to his party, they are pretty united on that. They are moving through Gaza quicker than anyone I saw previously estimate.

He might think the military destruction saves him but I can't see it

[neil7908]

Nothing but full destruction of Hamas's Gaza leadership will suffice to his party, they are pretty united on that. They are moving through Gaza quicker than anyone I saw previously estimate.

He might think the military destruction saves him but I can't see it

They are moving through it and no doubt they have dealt a big blow to Hamas but as soon as Israel leave they will regroup and begin all over again. Given a two state solution is officially off the table per Israeli Govt comments, it seems like there is now no pathway for Palestine beyond taking up arms.

The whole thing is horrendous and the West has been complicit in allowing things to get so bad (not just 7/10 but the overall failure of the peace process).

[Stairway 2 7]

They are moving through it and no doubt they have dealt a big blow to Hamas but as soon as Israel leave they will regroup and begin all over again. Given a two state solution is officially off the table per Israeli Govt comments, it seems like there is now no pathway for Palestine beyond taking up arms.

The whole thing is horrendous and the West has been complicit in allowing things to get so bad (not just 7/10 but the overall failure of the peace process).

I don't think they will regroup to even a tenth of their size this decade. They had the freedom to make an immense tunnel network stocked with weapons. Most of both will be destroyed. Almost all military capacity will be wiped out, along with 20% of peoples homes shockingly. I can see similar happening to what happened to isis.

Israel will push for a puppet as long as its not the Palestinian Authority. They won't stop the ideology and hate towards them, it will obviously grow after the genocide we've seen and will see. They have been committing constant crimes against the public for decades, that won't change they will probably have more freedom to

[MKHIBEE]

I don't think they will regroup to even a tenth of their size this decade. They had the freedom to make an immense tunnel network stocked with weapons. Most of both will be destroyed. Almost all military capacity will be wiped out, along with 20% of peoples homes shockingly. I can see similar happening to what happened to isis.

Israel will push for a puppet as long as its not the Palestinian Authority. They won't stop the ideology and hate towards them, it will obviously grow after the genocide we've seen and will see. They have been committing constant crimes against the public for decades, that won't change they will probably have more freedom to
Support for Hamas in the Gaza Strip and occupied West Bank has increased dramatically since October 7th and support for Abbas and the Palestinian Authority is down to around 10%.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Russia aren't fighting the US in direct combat, they are using all their might to have a stalemate with a country using 1970s equipment. Countries like Finland and Poland would walk through Russia in a week.
Iran are using their proxies to attack the US quite openly in Iraq and they funded the Hamas slaughter on Oct 7th pretty openly too, they won't fight head on, more likely doing nuclear deals together same with Qatar.

Israel will take out Hamas via thousands more civilians then pull out and the world will forget about it as they continue to resettle and steal land.

This isn't new they have been doing it for decades. Although Putin stole Crimea committed genocide on the local Tatars resettled millions of people in Crimea and people didn't say a word, not one march. Assad openly gassed his on people flattened Aleppo and killed thousands of children doing it, no marches there either.

Venezuela is currently trying to conquer half of Guyana and I don't any nation will do anything either

Top Israeli officials are now totally open about being against a 2-state solution, and are flirting with idea of 'Greater Israel' extending into and actually swallowing Jordan.

[Stairway 2 7]

Top Israeli officials are now totally open about being against a 2-state solution, and are flirting with idea of 'Greater Israel' extending into and actually swallowing Jordan.

Other top official said they want to nuke Gaza, thankfully there's a parliament and neither will happen just idiots spouting like our 50p Lee. Netanyahus far right government will be voted out

[Stairway 2 7]

Support for Hamas in the Gaza Strip and occupied West Bank has increased dramatically since October 7th and support for Abbas and the Palestinian Authority is down to around 10%.

It may do but Hamas will no longer have a complex military system they will be a shadow of what they were for decades to come, see ISIS who many said couldn't be defeated. The ideology wasn't defeated but they are a little gorilla group rather than a country

[lapsedhibee]

It may do but Hamas will no longer have a complex military system they will be a shadow of what they were for decades to come, see ISIS who many said couldn't be defeated. The ideology wasn't defeated but they are a little gorilla group rather than a country

Probably about right.

[Moulin Yarns]

Probably about right.

😂


https://turnerproofreading.com/gorilla-vs-guerrilla/#:~:text=They're%20not%20the%20same,unexpectedly%2 0without%20declaring%20war%20first.


You say Gorilla, I say guerilla. Let's call the whole thing off.

[MKHIBEE]

It may do but Hamas will no longer have a complex military system they will be a shadow of what they were for decades to come, see ISIS who many said couldn't be defeated. The ideology wasn't defeated but they are a little gorilla group rather than a country

I think this is going to go on long after Gaza has been reduced to rubble and the Israelis have left. I feel there will be more armed resistance in the occupied west bank

[Stairway 2 7]

I think this is going to go on long after Gaza has been reduced to rubble and the Israelis have left. I feel there will be more armed resistance in the occupied west bank

Definitely unfortunately, orphans won't forget. Can't see peace in my lifetime were a long way away from northern Ireland for example. Things have got worse this year but there wasn't really a path for true freedom for the Palestinians pre 2023

[DaveF]

Israel shoots dead 3 of their own (Hamas hostages) which confirms they are just shooting anything that moves.

[MKHIBEE]

Israel shoots dead 3 of their own (Hamas hostages) which confirms they are just shooting anything that moves.


“During combat in Shujayea, the mistakenly identified three Israeli hostages as a threat. As a result, [I]the troops fired toward them and they were killed,” the army said in a statement.

or he could have said were shot and killed as was the intention.

[Stairway 2 7]

Israel shoots dead 3 of their own (Hamas hostages) which confirms they are just shooting anything that moves.

Disgusting. Shows what they think of the local population

[MKHIBEE]

Israel shoots dead 3 of their own (Hamas hostages) which confirms they are just shooting anything that moves..

As one of them waved a white flag. That shows exactly the attitude of some Israelis towards Palestinians.

[neil7908]

.

As one of them waved a white flag. That shows exactly the attitude of some Israelis towards Palestinians.

Yup - shoot anything that moves. I'm shocked they actually admitted this one.

[DaveF]

Yup - shoot anything that moves. I'm shocked they actually admitted this one.

And just to make sure, they shot the injured hostage again after hearing cries for help (in Hebrew)

IDF spokesman says they will take no action against the soldier and will support him.

[MKHIBEE]

And just to make sure, they shot the injured hostage again after hearing cries for help (in Hebrew)

IDF spokesman says they will take no action against the soldier and will support him.


Because he thought he was shooting surrendering Palestinians? Very noble.

[Ozyhibby]

[/B][/I][/U]


Because he thought he was shooting surrendering Palestinians? Very noble.

Even the Tories are calling for a ceasefire now. Starmer must really love what he is seeing.[emoji35]


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[Hibrandenburg]

Disgusting. Shows what they think of the local population

I'm not sure it does. I wouldn't want to be an Israeli conscript in Gaza. Every object could be an improvised explosive device, every building could house snipers, around every corner could be a trap, every person could be a ploy to make them let down their guard. Fatigue, fear and many other factors will also have an influence on how the soldiers react to different situations.

Of course all that doesn't excuse what's happening, but I doubt that your average Israeli soldier is a bloodthirsty maniac. The blame for what we're seeing unfold in front of us is entirely the fault of the Israeli and Hamas leadership.

[AgentDaleCooper]

[/B][/I][/U]


Because he thought he was shooting surrendering Palestinians? Very noble.

Or because his actions were in line with Israel's hannibal directive

[MKHIBEE]

Or because his actions were in line with Israel's hannibal directive

It certainly was, although I was under the impression that such a practice had ceased.

[AgentDaleCooper]

It certainly was, although I was under the impression that such a practice had ceased.

they say so, but i don't really trust anything the current Israeli regime says tbh.

[MKHIBEE]

they say so, but i don't really trust anything the current Israeli regime says tbh.

I can understand that. If they told me today was Monday I would check the calendar

[Keith_M]

I'm not sure it does. I wouldn't want to be an Israeli conscript in Gaza. Every object could be an improvised explosive device, every building could house snipers, around every corner could be a trap, every person could be a ploy to make them let down their guard. Fatigue, fear and many other factors will also have an influence on how the soldiers react to different situations.

Of course all that doesn't excuse what's happening, but I doubt that your average Israeli soldier is a bloodthirsty maniac. The blame for what we're seeing unfold in front of us is entirely the fault of the Israeli and Hamas leadership.

The Israeli army on Saturday declared its soldiers guilty of the killings of three Israeli hostages in Gaza who were held by Hamas following preliminary investigations, citing them for acting outside the rules of engagement.
...

"An Israeli force began to advance towards the building, hearing the detainee inside crying for help in Hebrew (save me). The leader of the force asked him to come out at that point, but as soon as he did, an Israeli soldier opened fire on him from close range, killing him," according to the investigation

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-army-found-its-soldiers-guilty-of-killing-hostages-in-hamas-custody-after-initial-probe/3084538

[Hibrandenburg]

The Israeli army on Saturday declared its soldiers guilty of the killings of three Israeli hostages in Gaza who were held by Hamas following preliminary investigations, citing them for acting outside the rules of engagement.
...

"An Israeli force began to advance towards the building, hearing the detainee inside crying for help in Hebrew (save me). The leader of the force asked him to come out at that point, but as soon as he did, an Israeli soldier opened fire on him from close range, killing him," according to the investigation

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-army-found-its-soldiers-guilty-of-killing-hostages-in-hamas-custody-after-initial-probe/3084538

Not sure what your point is Keith.

[MKHIBEE]

The Israeli army on Saturday declared its soldiers guilty of the killings of three Israeli hostages in Gaza who were held by Hamas following preliminary investigations, citing them for acting outside the rules of engagement.
...

"An Israeli force began to advance towards the building, hearing the detainee inside crying for help in Hebrew (save me). The leader of the force asked him to come out at that point, but as soon as he did, an Israeli soldier opened fire on him from close range, killing him," according to the investigation

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-army-found-its-soldiers-guilty-of-killing-hostages-in-hamas-custody-after-initial-probe/3084538

It’s not only Israeli hostages the Israeli army are killing
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/21/why-is-israels-military-killing-so-many-of-its-own

[Keith_M]

Not sure what your point is Keith.


No specific point, just giving the latest updates from IDF on the situation.


FWIW, I get your point about the mental state of the soldiers thrown into the situation.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/24/bethlehem-forlorn-christmas-manger-square

This article paints a picture of how the war extends beyond the boundaries of Gaza. The Israeli government have emboldened extremists within their own community. When you read of the deliberate erosion of non Jewish communities in both the West Bank and Israel itself and the complicity of the government, IDF and other security forces then it's hard to see this as anything other than ethnic cleansing.

[JimBHibees]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/24/bethlehem-forlorn-christmas-manger-square

This article paints a picture of how the war extends beyond the boundaries of Gaza. The Israeli government have emboldened extremists within their own community. When you read of the deliberate erosion of non Jewish communities in both the West Bank and Israel itself and the complicity of the government, IDF and other security forces then it's hard to see this as anything other than ethnic cleansing.

Predictably depressing that the West is complicit in this and yet are surprised of the huge levels of hared and mistrust of them. We still trying to win the Hearts and minds after carpet bombing cities.

[Keith_M]

Predictably depressing that the West is complicit in this and yet are surprised of the huge levels of hared and mistrust of them. We still trying to win the Hearts and minds after carpet bombing cities.


Not his biggest fan but for one of the best examples of what happens to any critic of Israel, just look at Jeremy Corbyn.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/24/bethlehem-forlorn-christmas-manger-square

This article paints a picture of how the war extends beyond the boundaries of Gaza. The Israeli government have emboldened extremists within their own community. When you read of the deliberate erosion of non Jewish communities in both the West Bank and Israel itself and the complicity of the government, IDF and other security forces then it's hard to see this as anything other than ethnic cleansing.

I have trouble distinguishing between what the Israelis are doing in Gaza and what the Germans did in Warsaw. I know I'll get slated for drawing the comparison but before anyone gets laid in, please note I restricted my comparison to Warsaw.

[MKHIBEE]

Not his biggest fan but for one of the best examples of what happens to any critic of Israel, just look at Jeremy Corbyn.

With one of the main drivers of the campaign being Starmer, that self confessed Zionist

[MKHIBEE]

I have trouble distinguishing between what the Israelis are doing in Gaza and what the Germans did in Warsaw. I know I'll get slated for drawing the comparison but before anyone gets laid in, please note I restricted my comparison to Warsaw.

No argument from me, I think you are spot on.

[neil7908]

I have trouble distinguishing between what the Israelis are doing in Gaza and what the Germans did in Warsaw. I know I'll get slated for drawing the comparison but before anyone gets laid in, please note I restricted my comparison to Warsaw.

Agreed.

The way our Government and the Americans are supporting this is horrendous.

How many times has Biden or one of his representatives implored Israel to protect civilians? It most be well into double figures by now. Which clearly shows they aren't doing it. So what's the next step going to be? They will strongly implore, whilst still sending over billions. Israelis are probably pissing themselves laughing.

We also announced we'd ban Israeli settlers who had committed violence. Completely bizarre strategy, as if their violence wasn't being carried out with collusion or at least approval of the state. Couldn't we, you know, put pressure on our ally to stop violence in the first place?

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/mairavz/status/1739364199367618871?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Supported by the UK govt and the incoming Labour govts.[emoji35]


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[Pretty Boy]

https://x.com/mairavz/status/1739364199367618871?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Supported by the UK govt and the incoming Labour govts.[emoji35]


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'Ethnic transfer' sounds like something associated with an ideology that begins with N that you aren't allowed to say when talking about Israeli foreign policy.

[DaveF]

'Ethnic transfer' sounds like something associated with an ideology that begins with N that you aren't allowed to say when talking about Israeli foreign policy.

If it talks likes a nazi and acts like a nazi, then it's a nazi. Netanyahu knows he has a free pass from the US while everyone else falls into line so he's doing what he likes.

[MKHIBEE]

https://x.com/mairavz/status/1739364199367618871?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Supported by the UK govt and the incoming Labour govts.[emoji35]


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No surprise a potentially incoming, Zionist, prime minister supports a Zionist policy. Not that I needed a reason not to vote Labour, but if I did there’s one right there.

[Keith_M]

I have trouble distinguishing between what the Israelis are doing in Gaza and what the Germans did in Warsaw. I know I'll get slated for drawing the comparison but before anyone gets laid in, please note I restricted my comparison to Warsaw.


Actually, that's a very good comparison.

I've read a lot about that particular part of WWII and the similarities are quite striking.

[Keith_M]

'Ethnic transfer' sounds like something associated with an ideology that begins with N that you aren't allowed to say when talking about Israeli foreign policy.


That really is shocking.

[MKHIBEE]

https://x.com/mairavz/status/1739364199367618871?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Supported by the UK govt and the incoming Labour govts.[emoji35]


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Which ties in with this issue

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/12/19/israeli-real-estate-firm-pushes-settlement-building-in-gaza

[Hibs4185]

No surprise a potentially incoming, Zionist, prime minister supports a Zionist policy. Not that I needed a reason not to vote Labour, but if I did there’s one right there.


Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the definition of a Zionist? Seen it used a number of different contexts l

[Ozyhibby]

Which ties in with this issue

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/12/19/israeli-real-estate-firm-pushes-settlement-building-in-gaza

Wonder if Starmer will put himself down for a new apartment.?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Wonder if Starmer will put himself down for a new apartment.?


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Starmer is asking for the same as a good chunk of the population want I bet. Hamas to think of the population give up their fight and release the hostages in return for a ceasefire. Its never going to happen but if you say its ridiculous you must also admit a full ceasefire is ridiculously not going to happen.

The only thing that's created a ceasefire is releasing hostages. If Hamas wanted one they would release more. Two ****my sides will continue with as is with no regards to the population

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer is asking for the same as a good chunk of the population want I bet. Hamas to think of the population give up their fight and release the hostages in return for a ceasefire. Its never going to happen but if you say its ridiculous you must also admit a full ceasefire is ridiculously not going to happen.

The only thing that's created a ceasefire is releasing hostages. If Hamas wanted one they would release more. Two ****my sides will continue with as is with no regards to the population

‘They were going to do it anyway’ isn’t where I want my political leaders to be and certainly not where the Labour Party should be, especially when it comes to committing war crimes and ethnic cleansing.


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[MKHIBEE]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the definition of a Zionist? Seen it used a number of different contexts l


This is one view on Zionism and how it can become an integral part of the solution which includes Palestinians

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/12/21/the-anatomy-of-zionist-genocide

[MKHIBEE]

Starmer is asking for the same as a good chunk of the population want I bet. Hamas to think of the population give up their fight and release the hostages in return for a ceasefire. Its never going to happen but if you say its ridiculous you must also admit a full ceasefire is ridiculously not going to happen.

The only thing that's created a ceasefire is releasing hostages. If Hamas wanted one they would release more. Two ****my sides will continue with as is with no regards to the population


If Israel wanted the hostages released they would agree to a ceasefire. The Hannibal effect seems to be part of the decision making here. I think Netanyahu has nailed Israel’s colours to the mast, the removal of as many Palestinians as possible with those that remain shoehorned into a tiny part of the Gaza Strip. Perhaps the UK will treat Palestinians the same as the Ukrainians?

[Stairway 2 7]

‘They were going to do it anyway’ isn’t where I want my political leaders to be and certainly not where the Labour Party should be, especially when it comes to committing war crimes and ethnic cleansing.


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He isn't he's saying they are going to do it anyway. He's saying Hamas release hostages and put down their weapons and Israel stop the bombing. Its hardly unreasonable.

As for the genocide they have been doing it for decades, politicians pick and choose when they make a stand against it. Israel and Russia gets vocal opposition. Complete silence and not one march and barely a comment on here when Assad did the same to Aleppo, Erdoğan has been committing genocide against the kurds for decades, 180 Christians slaughtered in a genocide in Nigeria yesterday, 1.7 million Afghans have been told to leave Pakistan this month tens of thousands are expected to die in the exodus.

I wouldn't expect much from our political class they care when they want a photo op

[Stairway 2 7]

[/B][/I][/U]


If Israel wanted the hostages released they would agree to a ceasefire. The Hannibal effect seems to be part of the decision making here. I think Netanyahu has nailed Israel’s colours to the mast, the removal of as many Palestinians as possible with those that remain shoehorned into a tiny part of the Gaza Strip. Perhaps the UK will treat Palestinians the same as the Ukrainians?
If Hamas wanted a ceasefire they would go to Qatar agree to release hostages and a ceasefire would happen. Why would Israel ceasefire when their ground operation is going fast. Both sides don't care about the hostages and are going to fight until the end, that's hardly surprising for two repugnant regimes

[Pretty Boy]

The below is a letter that was published in our church newsletter on Christmas Eve. It's an interesting read for a number of reasons imo. Firstly I think it paints a picture of what life was like in Gaza a few weeks ago. Yes there was conflict but for many it was also typified by the banalities of every day life. Decorating a house, shopping, working, playing with children. And then what it is like now which seems like something beyond my worst nightmares. The only hope is that there is a majority on all sides who share this man's dreams for and desire of peace and in time their voices are heard.

(Apologies for any formatting issues, this was a straight copy and paste from a PDF)

"Rami Aljelda - I’m a Palestinian Christian in Gaza.

I want peace - for my homeland and my family.I have been living in Gaza my whole life but,honestly, I can barely remember the details of my life before two months ago. So much has changed — and it was already a year of major change in my personal life. In May of 2022 I married my wife, Maryan. Over the past year, we designed and built our house together, inch By inch. Maryan chose the colour of the curtains, the furniture. We did everything together, going here and there, to restaurants, to people’s homes. We had a life. We had community. And in June of this year, we had a daughter.

Even though we have lived through other conflicts before, this is the first one that has happened since I married and had a child. It is totally different. I don’t know how to describe it, but with everything that
happens to me, I always think about my wife and my daughter, Kylie. It is not like before. I have responsibility as a new father. We don’t set an alarm because we don’t sleep very well, and we also wake up from the sound of bombings.

We have a small community of Christians here — about 900 people out of two million. We all know one another because we are all one community. Of course, we have had bad times before, with smaller escalations happening.
But we were able to overcome them. We didn’t have to leave our homes. This time, we knew it would not be the same. Within two days of the start of the conflict, without any hesitation, my family went to St. Porphyrius Greek Orthodox Church. We have lived in the church for nearly two months. I can say we are
“living” in the church — not staying or taking shelter — because it’s really like we are living here. Each day we wake up in a hall with 300 other people. We don’t set an alarm because we don’t sleep very well, and we also wake up from the sound of bombings. There is nothing to do except help out in the distribution of food and water, but we have a lot of roles and responsibilities in this effort. After two months, we have gained a good deal of experience. We have a shower schedule for every person. We have a queue in the mornings for people to go to the
bathroom and a schedule for washing clothes by hand. We have only two hours of electricity a day if we’re lucky, because we don’t have enough fuel. During those two hours, everybody is charging their phones, their laptops, or anything they need. And we help each other to cook. We have to make sure that we have supplies that can last for a while because we don’t know how long this will go on. We haven’t eaten a single fruit or vegetable in more than 50 days. Every day that goes by is even harder than the day before. My daughter
hasn’t been able to get two essential vaccinations and is sick from the polluted
drinking water. The stress level is high. We didn’t think about food before, about electricity. They seemed like small things
in our daily life. Now, our entire days are scheduled and defined by them. We have zero connection with the Internet and a poor connection with mobile devices.

Sometimes we can’t reach our friends or our families who are not with us. Sometimes we hear bad news about our friends — news that we should have heard 10 days ago. But we’re doing all that we can to hang in there. We’re doing our best to stay strong. During the pause in fighting, my wife and I were able to leave the
church to go back to visit our home. I don’t know how to describe our visit. We might be better off if we had not had that chance to return. We drove my car and saw what has become of the city. Everything is on the ground. Demolished. You can barely recognize the streets. It’s a horror show. Words, videos, not even pictures can capture what it is like to drive through Gaza and see the destruction. It’s beyond comprehension. During the pause in fighting, my wife and I went back to our house to pick up some things — water and some food. We found our cat, Louki, who was really like our first child. He had survived. When we visited our home, we felt like it could be for the last time; our house could be the next to be demolished. We looked at every inch and corner of the home because we put it together. When I got married, I spent all my savings to build the house. I spent everything I had because I wanted to be comfortable living in our home, raising our
family. We never imagined that we could lose it so soon.

My dream is a place where I can live and work, where my wife is working, and my children can be living in a peaceful environment where there is no violence. More than 70 percent of the people here don’t have a home anymore. They also lost their stores, their
businesses. Many are living on the street. If the war suddenly ended now, nobody could go back to their lives before the conflict — even if their homes were standing - because they don’t have water or electricity or any
of the essentials needed to live. There are no stores, no supermarkets, nothing to buy. And even if they are able to rebuild, it would never be the same. They lost pictures, memories of their childhoods, their weddings,
their life milestones — belongings that nobody can replace or rebuild.

Now, since the fighting has begun again, we cannot leave the church at all. Currently, we’re hearing a lot of bombing around us. We don’t startle anymore when we hear heavy bombings. We know that the tanks are
around us. Two days ago, my car was destroyed because it was parked in a schoolyard next to our church. With Christmas approaching, no one here is going to celebrate as usual, even though we are living together here at the church. We have no desire to celebrate because we lost 17 of our relatives and friends here on these grounds in a bombing. It will be impossible to feel the happiness of Christmas—no decorating a Christmas tree or dressing in our best outfits. We will attend Masses only.
Honestly, we are not O.K. I can clearly say that my dream for my family now is totally different than my dreams the day before this crisis began. What I want for my family and what I want for Gaza are the same: peace. My dream is a place where I can live and work, where my wife is working, and my children can be living in a peaceful environment where there is no violence, where there’s no conflict with any other party. This is the only dream that I can imagine. This is what I want and what I hope for: a safe place where we can guarantee that there are no conflicts, and where people can really build their dreams and start building their

lives. I spent much of my childhood on the grounds of this church where we are staying. It has always been a close-knit, welcoming space. Since we are a small Christian community here in Gaza, we all know each
other. We have married within our community.
If the people here are not cousins or relatives, they would be extended family. We know that any moment could be our last. All the people who have died, they had dreams, too. They had parents or were parents.
They had families and friends who loved them, who searched for them, who miss and grieve them now that they are gone. I would want people to know that there’s another life in Gaza than this horror. There are civilians with hopes and dreams. There are people who believe in peace and who just want to live peacefully.

Rami Aljelda has worked as a senior project officer for Catholic Relief Services in Gaza for the last nine years.
He attended the Holy Family School in Gaza as a child and holds a bachelor’s degree in civil engineering and a master’s degree in data management. He lives in Gaza with his wife and daughter."

[Ozyhibby]

He isn't he's saying they are going to do it anyway. He's saying Hamas release hostages and put down their weapons and Israel stop the bombing. Its hardly unreasonable.

As for the genocide they have been doing it for decades, politicians pick and choose when they make a stand against it. Israel and Russia gets vocal opposition. Complete silence and not one march and barely a comment on here when Assad did the same to Aleppo, Erdoğan has been committing genocide against the kurds for decades, 180 Christians slaughtered in a genocide in Nigeria yesterday, 1.7 million Afghans have been told to leave Pakistan this month tens of thousands are expected to die in the exodus.

I wouldn't expect much from our political class they care when they want a photo op

I know war happens elsewhere, it’s just that usually our govt doesn’t support it. And we should hold so called democracies like Isreal claims to be to higher standards. As far as I know, those other examples were not supported by the Labour Party.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I know war happens elsewhere, it’s just that usually our govt doesn’t support it. And we should hold so called democracies like Isreal claims to be to higher standards. As far as I know, those other examples were not supported by the Labour Party.


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They aren't supporting I don't think, what I read he said that he wants Israel to ceasefire. He also wants hamas to lay down the weapons and release the hostages. I don't see how that's controversial. He was ripped on here for saying similar before then two days later there was a ceasefire in exchange for hostages released.

[Ozyhibby]

They aren't supporting I don't think, what I read he said that he wants Israel to ceasefire. He also wants hamas to lay down the weapons and release the hostages. I don't see how that's controversial. He was ripped on here for saying similar before then two days later there was a ceasefire in exchange for hostages released.

His new position is a ‘sustainable ceasefire with hostage release’.
That wasn’t his position before.
All conditions placed on the Palestinians. Nothing about settlements in the West Bank?


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[MKHIBEE]

His new position is a ‘sustainable ceasefire with hostage release’.
That wasn’t his position before.
All conditions placed on the Palestinians. Nothing about settlements in the West Bank?


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Not like Starmer to change his position to try and gain credibility with the public

[Keith_M]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the definition of a Zionist? Seen it used a number of different contexts l


The meaning will depend on who you're talking to, as it's used by some people as a positive term, and others as negative.

One common definition is the right of the Jewish people to a home of their own, which sounds reasonable.

A different take on it is the right of the Jewish people to the land that once was Israel, nearly two centuries ago, no matter who they have to displace.

Interestingly, if you believe the bible (yeah, I know), the ancient state of Israel was formed by the Jews who fled Egypt, arrived in a land called 'Canaan'... and murdered every man, woman and child to make it their own land.

The scary part is that some members of the extreme right in Israel pretty much share the same point of view as those ancient predecessors... and when somebody is insultingly called a Zionist, they're often inferring that they share, or at least support, that viewpoint.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/south-africa-launches-case-at-the-hague-accusing-israel-of-genocide-in-gaza

Well done south africa.

[MKHIBEE]

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/south-africa-launches-case-at-the-hague-accusing-ricaisrael-of-genocide-in-gaza (https://news.stv.tv/west-central/south-africa-launches-case-at-the-hague-accusing-israel-of-genocide-in-gaza)

Well done south africa.

I admire the sentiment but, in reality, Isreal will just ignore any legally binding judgement that they don’t agree with. Unfortunately it’s going to take the Americans to come up with something that will force Israel’s hand and I can’t see that happening

[AgentDaleCooper]

I admire the sentiment but, in reality, Isreal will just ignore any legally binding judgement that they don’t agree with. Unfortunately it’s going to take the Americans to come up with something that will force Israel’s hand and I can’t see that happening

The more countries thst follow what SA have done, the more difficult it will be for israel to ignore it - pretty sure sanctions and boycotts played an important role in ending apartheid there, and taking the matter to the hague might help instigate that, even if the US and UK pretend to be sacks of potatoes for as long as possible...obviously it's unlikely, but there is experience behind their actions as well as sentiment.

[Ozyhibby]

The more countries thst follow what SA have done, the more difficult it will be for israel to ignore it - pretty sure sanctions and boycotts played an important role in ending apartheid there, and taking the matter to the hague might help instigate that, even if the US and UK pretend to be sacks of potatoes for as long as possible...obviously it's unlikely, but there is experience behind their actions as well as sentiment.

Things are changing in the US. Young people no longer support Isreal and there are large Muslim populations as well. That and the horrific pictures we can all see on social media mean that the tide is turning against Isreal. Biden is likely too slow to notice this happening but it’s likely to cost him in November.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Things are changing in the US. Young people no longer support Isreal and there are large Muslim populations as well. That and the horrific pictures we can all see on social media mean that the tide is turning against Isreal. Biden is likely too slow to notice this happening but it’s likely to cost him in November.


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Not so sure about that, especially when you consider his likely opponent endorsed Israel moving their capital city to Jerusalem which was widely condemned at the time.

[Ozyhibby]

Not so sure about that, especially when you consider his likely opponent endorsed Israel moving their capital city to Jerusalem which was widely condemned at the time.

I actually don’t think Trump will make the starting line.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I actually don’t think Trump will make the starting line.


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Don't you. I hope not, but think he'll fall on his feet

[Stairway 2 7]

Qatari and Israeli sources have been reporting on a deal involving Hamas stepping down from power to stop the war. Saudi news are saying Hamas has agreed.

There would be a Egyptian, Qatari, Saudi and US agreed government. Hostages would be released in return for Palestinians. Israel would stop all air activities including drones, Israel would stop ground operation. Hamas would stop all attacks against Israel.

Suspect this will happen Saudi, Qatar and the US will want to go back to making money and the war is preventing growth.

It's might not happen but fair play Keir Starmer its pretty much what he was suggesting and more likely than Israel just stopping.

Hopefully it happens and in an ideal world Hamas and Israeli governments would face war crimes trials for their evil crimes to the populations, I won't hold my breath.

https://twitter.com/amaherYAH/status/1741376729887789124

[Ozyhibby]

Qatari and Israeli sources have been reporting on a deal involving Hamas stepping down from power to stop the war. Saudi news are saying Hamas has agreed.

There would be a Egyptian, Qatari, Saudi and US agreed government. Hostages would be released in return for Palestinians. Israel would stop all air activities including drones, Israel would stop ground operation. Hamas would stop all attacks against Israel.

Suspect this will happen Saudi, Qatar and the US will want to go back to making money and the war is preventing growth.

It's might not happen but fair play Keir Starmer its pretty much what he was suggesting and more likely than Israel just stopping.

Hopefully it happens and in an ideal world Hamas and Israeli governments would face war crimes trials for their evil crimes to the populations, I won't hold my breath.

https://twitter.com/amaherYAH/status/1741376729887789124

Let’s hope this happens but I don’t think we should be patting anyone on the back when we have about 15,000 dead children?

Also, there is nothing in that about removing settlements from the West Bank so I doubt it gets fully implemented.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Let’s hope this happens but I don’t think we should be patting anyone on the back when we have about 15,000 dead children?

Also, there is nothing in that about removing settlements from the West Bank so I doubt it gets fully implemented.

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There's is only condemnation to Hamas and Israel for the children. After 2000 dead Israelis the **** in Netanyahus government were always going to slaughter. I just can't get my head round Hamas doing what they did it was always going to turn out one way. I can only think of pressure from Iran and Russia for separate reasons.

After the horror there needed to be a way out that both would agree to , this seems like a way.

[Keith_M]

Qatari and Israeli sources have been reporting on a deal involving Hamas stepping down from power to stop the war. Saudi news are saying Hamas has agreed.

There would be a Egyptian, Qatari, Saudi and US agreed government. Hostages would be released in return for Palestinians. Israel would stop all air activities including drones, Israel would stop ground operation. Hamas would stop all attacks against Israel.

Suspect this will happen Saudi, Qatar and the US will want to go back to making money and the war is preventing growth.

It's might not happen but fair play Keir Starmer its pretty much what he was suggesting and more likely than Israel just stopping.

Hopefully it happens and in an ideal world Hamas and Israeli governments would face war crimes trials for their evil crimes to the populations, I won't hold my breath.

https://twitter.com/amaherYAH/status/1741376729887789124


Hopefully it comes to fruition, but i have serious doubts.

[MKHIBEE]

Qatari and Israeli sources have been reporting on a deal involving Hamas stepping down from power to stop the war. Saudi news are saying Hamas has agreed.

There would be a Egyptian, Qatari, Saudi and US agreed government. Hostages would be released in return for Palestinians. Israel would stop all air activities including drones, Israel would stop ground operation. Hamas would stop all attacks against Israel.

Suspect this will happen Saudi, Qatar and the US will want to go back to making money and the war is preventing growth.

It's might not happen but fair play Keir Starmer its pretty much what he was suggesting and more likely than Israel just stopping.

Hopefully it happens and in an ideal world Hamas and Israeli governments would face war crimes trials for their evil crimes to the populations, I won't hold my breath.

https://twitter.com/amaherYAH/status/1741376729887789124
I don’t believe you can have a government that does not, in some way, have an input from a Palestinian body, whether it be the PA, Hamas or some other recognised Palestinian organisation. Israel have already stated that they want control of the Philadelphia corridor, which if granted, gives them total control over all of the Gaza strip borders. That doesn’t sound like they will be giving up anything any time soon.

[MKHIBEE]

Qatari and Israeli sources have been reporting on a deal involving Hamas stepping down from power to stop the war. Saudi news are saying Hamas has agreed.

There would be a Egyptian, Qatari, Saudi and US agreed government. Hostages would be released in return for Palestinians. Israel would stop all air activities including drones, Israel would stop ground operation. Hamas would stop all attacks against Israel.

Suspect this will happen Saudi, Qatar and the US will want to go back to making money and the war is preventing growth.

It's might not happen but fair play Keir Starmer its pretty much what he was suggesting and more likely than Israel just stopping.

Hopefully it happens and in an ideal world Hamas and Israeli governments would face war crimes trials for their evil crimes to the populations, I won't hold my breath.

https://twitter.com/amaherYAH/status/1741376729887789124


Is this being reported any where else? I’m not seeing it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is this being reported any where else? I’m not seeing it.

Not that the have agreed that I've seen. The proposal has been widely reported but I'm dubious. US, Egypt and Saudi will be pushing for it I'd think. Iran will be the opposite they want to derail the Saudi Israel normalisation deal.

Sadly I think it'll be some Israeli puppet that is put in place, the people won't accept that

[Moulin Yarns]

High ranking Hamas official killed in Beirut, Lebanon. Are the Israelis just trying to piss every other Arab country off??

[Lendo]

Anyone else get the feeling that things are starting to slide out of control and that a much wider conflict is now inevitable?

[AgentDaleCooper]

Anyone else get the feeling that things are starting to slide out of control and that a much wider conflict is now inevitable?

yeah - it's a really bad state of affairs when I'm relieved to see IS are behind a bombing in Iran and not Israel.

[Keith_M]

yeah - it's a really bad state of affairs when I'm relieved to see IS are behind a bombing in Iran and not Israel.


Was that definitely IS?

I saw the reports of the attack earlier but didn't realise somebody has admitted it was them.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240105/29670f26c352386d4764fce1e7af7696.jpg

Shame.[emoji2369]


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[MKHIBEE]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240105/29670f26c352386d4764fce1e7af7696.jpg

Shame.[emoji2369]


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I would tell him to get tae, unfortunately there are jobs at stake for many who probably sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians. So I won’t.
However, this is just another example of who social media can screw things around to suit a particular agenda.

[Ozyhibby]

I would tell him to get tae, unfortunately there are jobs at stake for many who probably sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians. So I won’t.
However, this is just another example of who social media can screw things around to suit a particular agenda.

Eat at another restaurant. That way you are just supporting other jobs. There is no net loss to jobs or the economy.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Whole thing makes no sense McDonald's are franchises. One Israeli branch gave out free food to Israeli soldiers on October 8th so people are saying boycott all McDonald's, which are private businesses. McDonald's stock is 10% up from October the 7th so not sure its working.

I burst out laughing when I saw the reason people were saying to boycott Zara. Basically Zara had a new campaign shot month ago with wrapped up manicans and art supplies. Protesters are saying it resembles Gaza, some headcases just want to protest shops on a Saturday. Pics in article
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/zara-faces-boycott-pro-palestine-31649868.amp

[Ozyhibby]

Whole thing makes no sense McDonald's are franchises. One Israeli branch gave out free food to Israeli soldiers on October 8th so people are saying boycott all McDonald's, which are private businesses. McDonald's stock is 10% up from October the 7th so not sure its working.

I burst out laughing when I saw the reason people were saying to boycott Zara. Basically Zara had a new campaign shot month ago with wrapped up manicans and art supplies. Protesters are saying it resembles Gaza, some headcases just want to protest shops on a Saturday. Pics in article
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/zara-faces-boycott-pro-palestine-31649868.amp

McDonald’s themselves say they gave out 100k free meals to IDF so I doubt that’s one branch. And it’s McDonalds themselves who are saying the boycott is hurting them.
Stock prices can be affected by lots of different things not related to day to day business.
I hope the boycott continues.
I didn’t know about Zara but my lifetime boycott remains in place.[emoji106]


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[marinello59]

McDonald’s themselves say they gave out 100k free meals to IDF so I doubt that’s one branch. And it’s McDonalds themselves who are saying the boycott is hurting them.
Stock prices can be affected by lots of different things not related to day to day business.
I hope the boycott continues.
I didn’t know about Zara but my lifetime boycott remains in place.[emoji106]


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The Israeli franchisee to be more accurate.

[Ozyhibby]

The Israeli franchisee to be more accurate.

Given the level of control McDonalds have over all their franchisees then this is on McDonalds as a whole. They could stop it if they wanted.


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[marinello59]

Given the level of control McDonalds have over all their franchisees then this is on McDonalds as a whole. They could stop it if they wanted.


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What level of control do they have? Off the top of my head I would have no idea, I’m impressed you know though. :greengrin
Could they stop UK franchisees giving free meals to British troops for instance?

[Stairway 2 7]

Given the level of control McDonalds have over all their franchisees then this is on McDonalds as a whole. They could stop it if they wanted.


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No they couldn't McDonald's Israel owner paid for them himself £1 million

It was also in the days after 2000 Israelis were murdered and before the air and ground campaign slaughter had kicked off this started. Any anger should go to him if he's still feeding troops.

[Stairway 2 7]

In the latest case of some genocide is OK some not. South Africa days after reporting Israel to the UN for genocide, ridiculously welcome the butcher of Darfur

South African president welcomes Janjaweed militia leader Hemedti. He was personally responsible for dozens of massacres in a genocide that's estimated to have cost 500k lives and the lives of hundreds of thousands of children.

He should be up in court with Netanyahu

[MKHIBEE]

Eat at another restaurant. That way you are just supporting other jobs. There is no net loss to jobs or the economy.


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Can’t remember the last time I ate at McDonald’s, my contribution to the fast food sector is miniscule

[MKHIBEE]

Israel’s plan for Gaza Strip when the stop their slaughter. Hopefully they will told by the US to ram it. It’s not up to them to decide who governs the Palestinians, it’s the Palestinians themselves who should decide.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/5/what-is-israels-latest-day-after-plan-for-gaza

[Ozyhibby]

Sounds like we are about to go to war with Yemen.[emoji22]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Sounds like we are about to go to war with Yemen.[emoji22]


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Won't be a war. Its a coalition with US, UK, India, Germany Australia, Japan, Sweden and others to keep the red sea open. Constant attacks from Houthi pirates and Iranian missile and drone attacks on ships and US bases. The US have been a bit weak in taking it for a month.

It all stems from Iran, Syria and Russia. Shahed drones are a huge problem for NATO

[lapsedhibee]

Sounds like we are about to go to war with Yemen.[emoji22]


Worked for Thatch.

[Ozyhibby]

Won't be a war. Its a coalition with US, UK, India, Germany Australia, Japan, Sweden and others to keep the red sea open. Constant attacks from Houthi pirates and Iranian missile and drone attacks on ships and US bases. The US have been a bit weak in taking it for a month.

It all stems from Iran, Syria and Russia. Shahed drones are a huge problem for NATO

If they set a trap we might as well walk into it.


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[Stairway 2 7]

If they set a trap we might as well walk into it.


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People who say its just a shipping lane so what miss the point. One we should stop groups who repeatedly fire missles and hijack civilian ships as a given, its why we have a navy. Two from an ecological perspective millions of barrels of fuel will be burned in putting shipping round Africa. Three shipping costs can lead to inflation which brings poverty. Poverty equals deaths hundreds of thousands of lives lost from tories austerity shows us that and that is just uk.

Keep the shipping lanes open for civilian vessels it's important. Ukraines biggest military achievement last year was getting the black sea open for civilian vessels, the world owes them for it

[Ozyhibby]

People who say its just a shipping lane so what miss the point. One we should stop groups who repeatedly fire missles and hijack civilian ships as a given, its why we have a navy. Two from an ecological perspective millions of barrels of fuel will be burned in putting shipping round Africa. Three shipping costs can lead to inflation which brings poverty. Poverty equals deaths hundreds of thousands of lives lost from tories austerity shows us that and that is just uk.

Keep the shipping lanes open for civilian vessels it's important. Ukraines biggest military achievement last year was getting the black sea open for civilian vessels, the world owes them for it

It will be interesting to see if it can be achieved by launching a few missiles back?


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[Stairway 2 7]

It will be interesting to see if it can be achieved by launching a few missiles back?


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I doubt it will stop the Houthis in anyway as in being a military force because there won't be a ground operation or anything, rightly. But we can keep the red sea open hopefully seeing as there are a number of countries signed up.

Saying we're bombing Yemen is playing politics we're hitting a few military targets of a group that's cost thousands of Yemeni lives and is hitting civilian targets. I'd change my opinion if we copied Saudi Arabias indiscriminate bombing. We should just make sure the sea is open and civilians are unharmed and that's it

[marinello59]

People who say its just a shipping lane so what miss the point. One we should stop groups who repeatedly fire missles and hijack civilian ships as a given, its why we have a navy. Two from an ecological perspective millions of barrels of fuel will be burned in putting shipping round Africa. Three shipping costs can lead to inflation which brings poverty. Poverty equals deaths hundreds of thousands of lives lost from tories austerity shows us that and that is just uk.

Keep the shipping lanes open for civilian vessels it's important. Ukraines biggest military achievement last year was getting the black sea open for civilian vessels, the world owes them for it

:agree:

I’ll put my hands up here and state that my views may be coloured by my former career as a Merchant Seaman.
It is the duty of Goverment’s worldwide to protect civilian ships and their crews from harm to allow them to go about their lawful business. The only surprise is that it took so long for these strikes to happen.
I really wish they weren’t and that this is just part of a multi approach strategy to prevent further harm to innocent seafarers.

[Ozyhibby]

I doubt it will stop the Houthis in anyway as in being a military force because there won't be a ground operation or anything, rightly. But we can keep the red sea open hopefully seeing as there are a number of countries signed up.

Saying we're bombing Yemen is playing politics we're hitting a few military targets of a group that's cost thousands of Yemeni lives and is hitting civilian targets. I'd change my opinion if we copied Saudi Arabias indiscriminate bombing. We should just make sure the sea is open and civilians are unharmed and that's it

And if the drone strikes continue? If they still threaten ships? What’s the plan? Saying we are going to stop them is like saying Isreal will wipe out Hamas. It’s not going to happen. So now we have done this and they continue, how do we escalate? Do we invade?


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[Stairway 2 7]

And if the drone strikes continue? If they still threaten ships? What’s the plan? Saying we are going to stop them is like saying Isreal will wipe out Hamas. It’s not going to happen. So now we have done this and they continue, how do we escalate? Do we invade?


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Saying Israel will wipe out Hamas is like saying the coalition will wipe out isis. They pretty much did isis went from a nation state to a tiny group hiding in the desert. We don't escalate wee a a huge group of nations blutter anyone who tries to hijack in the area

If Ukraine on its own can open the black sea, a few dozen nations including 4 g7 can open the red sea.

[Ozyhibby]

Saying Israel will wipe out Hamas is like saying the coalition will wipe out isis. They pretty much did isis went from a nation state to a tiny group hiding in the desert. We don't escalate wee a a huge group of nations blutter anyone who tries to hijack in the area

If Ukraine on its own can open the black sea, a few dozen nations including 4 g7 can open the red sea.

Isis were never that strong. They held a lot of territory for a very short time.
I admire your confidence that Hamas will be gone. I personally don’t think so and think eventually they will need to be negotiated with.
And I think opening the Black Sea and the narrow straight at the mouth of the Red Sea are slightly different.
I’d prefer we looked at the region more holistically and that starts with a two state solution with Isreal and Palestine. If not then we are constantly going round in circles. New generations of Muslims growing up hating the west.
The whole world will now have to endure higher prices now just to indulge Israel’s genocidal tendencies in Gaza. Fantastic.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Isis were never that strong. They held a lot of territory for a very short time.
I admire your confidence that Hamas will be gone. I personally don’t think so and think eventually they will need to be negotiated with.
And I think opening the Black Sea and the narrow straight at the mouth of the Red Sea are slightly different.
I’d prefer we looked at the region more holistically and that starts with a two state solution with Isreal and Palestine. If not then we are constantly going round in circles. New generations of Muslims growing up hating the west.
The whole world will now have to endure higher prices now just to indulge Israel’s genocidal tendencies in Gaza. Fantastic.


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The Houthis situation has zero to do with Gaza, the murdering Houthis who have been slaughtering Yemenis for years would like people to group them to the Palestinian genocide but it's waffle. You can't compare the black and red sea as Russia isn't the much weaker Houthis and Ukraine aren't UK, US, Germany, India ect.

Hamas will be gone. Israel control the whole of North Gaza and are going building by building. There are full battalions being stood down and returning to Israel. The only question is who will replace Hamas

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/middle-east-crisis-us-and-uk-cant-allow-one-of-the-busiest-shipping-lanes-to-become-the-wild-west-13046541


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[MKHIBEE]

Can Hamas be eliminated?

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/12/israel-gaza-war-can-hamas-actually-be-eliminated-experts-weigh-in.html

[MKHIBEE]

Isis were never that strong. They held a lot of territory for a very short time.
I admire your confidence that Hamas will be gone. I personally don’t think so and think eventually they will need to be negotiated with.
And I think opening the Black Sea and the narrow straight at the mouth of the Red Sea are slightly different.
I’d prefer we looked at the region more holistically and that starts with a two state solution with Isreal and Palestine. If not then we are constantly going round in circles. New generations of Muslims growing up hating the west.
The whole world will now have to endure higher prices now just to indulge Israel’s genocidal tendencies in Gaza. Fantastic.


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Im in broad agreement with that, I even think that Hamas, politically, need to be involved in any post war discussions about the future of the Palestinian people.

[Keith_M]

"The brutality and inhumanity of Israel’s assault on Gaza is no surprise. It’s just what was promised"
Owen Jones - The Gaurdian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/13/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes)

[MKHIBEE]

"The brutality and inhumanity of Israel’s assault on Gaza is no surprise. It’s just what was promised"
Owen Jones - The Gaurdian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/13/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes)
Nothing there that is any surprise, I doubt very much if anything will come of South Africa’s efforts. Unfortunately the Israeli state seems to be untouchable.

[Hibs4185]

Nothing there that is any surprise, I doubt very much if anything will come of South Africa’s efforts. Unfortunately the Israeli state seems to be untouchable.

Unfortunately Hamas make Israel untouchable.

By constantly saying they want to wipe Israel off the map and Oct 7th will be repeated, it gives Israel carte blanche to do as they wish.

[Keith_M]

Unfortunately Hamas make Israel untouchable.

By constantly saying they want to wipe Israel off the map and Oct 7th will be repeated, it gives Israel carte blanche to do as they wish.


That's the problem; when we have two groups that think of each other as sub-human and want to annihilate each other.

If all other countries of the world condemned both groups for such hateful views, and refused to support them, then a resolution might be less difficult.

Sadly that's never going to be the case, especially when it comes to the likes of Iran and the US.

[MKHIBEE]

Unfortunately Hamas make Israel untouchable.

By constantly saying they want to wipe Israel off the map and Oct 7th will be repeated, it gives Israel carte blanche to do as they wish.
American dollars and western support make them untouchable. Without that things would be very different imo.

[Hibs4185]

American dollars and western support make them untouchable. Without that things would be very different imo.

And without Iran and Iranian cash, things would be very different for Hamas and the Houthi’s.

In fact there wouldnt have been a October 7th without Iranian supprt so perhaps blaming US dollars and western support is just wrong

[Billy Whizz]

Starting to see many food shortages due to Red Sea closure and Farmers blocking roads in Germany

[MKHIBEE]

And without Iran and Iranian cash, things would be very different for Hamas and the Houthi’s.

In fact there wouldnt have been a October 7th without Iranian supprt so perhaps blaming US dollars and western support is just wrong
There wouldn’t have been an October 7th if the Israelis hadn’t been murdering and oppressing Palestinians for years. To suggest otherwise is just wrong

[McD]

There wouldn’t have been an October 7th if the Israelis hadn’t been murdering and oppressing Palestinians for years. To suggest otherwise is just wrong



Yep, it’s too simplistic to say that this or that thing is the cause. This has been building for decades, and there’s a number of external players involved as well

[Stairway 2 7]

There's a wide Web of causes for both parties acting as the do. The vast majority of responsibility has to go to both evil governments though. Israel for continuing the genocide they have been committing for decades. Hamas for the brutal murder of 2000 people mostly civilians.

It won't change until both governments are gone. You can't have two sides that want the destruction of the other, staying in charge if you want a future of peace

[Stairway 2 7]

Not far away Turkey has used the cover of Israel taking all the news to increase its bombing of kurdish civilian infrastructure. Rojava has been getting annihilated the last 3 months more than usual. Won't be any marches and Erdoğan with visit the uk with smiles and hugs. The world was silent when Syria completely flattened Aleppo killing tens of thousands so its not surprising.

https://twitter.com/LindseySnell/status/1746604561987502452

[Ozyhibby]

There's a wide Web of causes for both parties acting as the do. The vast majority of responsibility has to go to both evil governments though. Israel for continuing the genocide they have been committing for decades. Hamas for the brutal murder of 2000 people mostly civilians.

It won't change until both governments are gone. You can't have two sides that want the destruction of the other, staying in charge if you want a future of peace

It’s good that the UK has taken a side though and giving our full support to wiping the other out. [emoji106]


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[Stairway 2 7]

It’s good that the UK has taken a side though and giving our full support to wiping the other out. [emoji106]


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That isn't true but makes a good soundbite. Like in Syria, Turkey, Rwanda were doing what we always do nothing.

I think Starmer’s proposal was about best. Hamas give up the hostages and Israel stop bombing. Seems simple but both sides want to destroy each other.

[MKHIBEE]

There's a wide Web of causes for both parties acting as the do. The vast majority of responsibility has to go to both evil governments though. Israel for continuing the genocide they have been committing for decades. Hamas for the brutal murder of 2000 people mostly civilians.

It won't change until both governments are gone. You can't have two sides that want the destruction of the other, staying in charge if you want a future of peace.

And therein lies the crux. Without a 2 state solution there is no peace for the Palestinians and the Israelis won’t accept anything that allows the Palestinians a state of their own in their desired location

[Stairway 2 7]

.

And therein lies the crux. Without a 2 state solution there is no peace for the Palestinians and the Israelis won’t accept anything that allows the Palestinians a state of their own in their desired location

I know it's disgusting and every policy for the future I've seen touted by Israel falls miles short, they are wanting a puppet leadership under their control

[Ozyhibby]

That isn't true but makes a good soundbite. Like in Syria, Turkey, Rwanda were doing what we always do nothing.

I think Starmer’s proposal was about best. Hamas give up the hostages and Israel stop bombing. Seems simple but both sides want to destroy each other.

Did he mention Isreal releasing their hostages?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Did he mention Isreal releasing their hostages?


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There's a false equivalence comparing the two. Israels prisoners are often I'm sure imprisoned on made up charges but they are tried or awaiting trial. Many would be better described as political prisoners. That's different from the mass detention and systematic rape of civilians.

As I've said umpteen times both government on the separate sides are up their with the most vile regimes in the world. Just because Israel is committing genocide it doesn't mean deflection should be used to protect the homophobic, rapists and antisemitic Hamas.

We're now also seeing the bizarre site of people defending the terrorist Houthis. Houthis have been killing Yemenis for years, openly enslave people and are trying to bomb civilians.

[Ozyhibby]

Jeremy Corbyn and Iain Duncan Smith both ask good questions in today’s debate. [emoji102][emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

There's a false equivalence comparing the two. Israels prisoners are often I'm sure imprisoned on made up charges but they are tried or awaiting trial. Many would be better described as political prisoners. That's different from the mass detention and systematic rape of civilians.

As I've said umpteen times both government on the separate sides are up their with the most vile regimes in the world. Just because Israel is committing genocide it doesn't mean deflection should be used to protect the homophobic, rapists and antisemitic Hamas.

We're now also seeing the bizarre site of people defending the terrorist Houthis. Houthis have been killing Yemenis for years, openly enslave people and are trying to bomb civilians.

I’m not defending the Houthi’s, I’d just like to see a comprehensive plan to try bring about peace rather than getting sucked into each individual skirmish. I doubt we will be able to stop the Houthi’s attacking ships unless we are willing to massively increase our involvement.
I also think that while we have no interest in a two state solution then we are going to be constantly getting involved in these things.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’m not defending the Houthi’s, I’d just like to see a comprehensive plan to try bring about peace rather than getting sucked into each individual skirmish. I doubt we will be able to stop the Houthi’s attacking ships unless we are willing to massively increase our involvement.
I also think that while we have no interest in a two state solution then we are going to be constantly getting involved in these things.


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How long should this plan take. This morning they sent a drone to a US cruiser and reports coming through that an hour ago they shot a missile at a Greek cargo ship.

Doesn't need one boot on the ground, missiles should be sent to every Houthi radar station and launch site until they can slow this down. Ukraine with no navy opening the Black see with HIMARS is more impressive than dozens of nations keeping the red sea open.

Or we could do nothing close the red sea and then complain at the starvation and inflation it causes

[Ozyhibby]

How long should this plan take. This morning they sent a drone to a US cruiser and reports coming through that an hour ago they shot a missile at a Greek cargo ship.

Doesn't need one boot on the ground, missiles should be sent to every Houthi radar station and launch site until they can slow this down. Ukraine with no navy opening the Black see with HIMARS is more impressive than dozens of nations keeping the red sea open.

Or we could do nothing close the red sea and then complain at the starvation and inflation it causes

I can agree with this action if I thought we had a more comprehensive plan? In the meantime, we are dancing to Iran’s tune.


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[neil7908]

How long should this plan take. This morning they sent a drone to a US cruiser and reports coming through that an hour ago they shot a missile at a Greek cargo ship.

Doesn't need one boot on the ground, missiles should be sent to every Houthi radar station and launch site until they can slow this down. Ukraine with no navy opening the Black see with HIMARS is more impressive than dozens of nations keeping the red sea open.

Or we could do nothing close the red sea and then complain at the starvation and inflation it causes

Yemeni government appear to disagree.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/15/airstrikes-houthis-aidarus-al-zoubaidi-yemen

Whilst I appreciate they have much to gain from further action against the Houthi’s, there is a good point here. The Saudis have been bombing them for years and have now effectively given up. And the Houthi’s still have the resources to carry out these attacks.

Why are our bombs going to succeed where the Saudis couldn't?

[Stairway 2 7]

Yemeni government appear to disagree.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/15/airstrikes-houthis-aidarus-al-zoubaidi-yemen

Whilst I appreciate they have much to gain from further action against the Houthi’s, there is a good point here. The Saudis have been bombing them for years and have now effectively given up. And the Houthi’s still have the resources to carry out these attacks.

Why are our bombs going to succeed where the Saudis couldn't?

Yeah they are going to disagree as they want the weapons and power to win the civil war.

Saudis weren't looking to keep open the sea they were trying to make their proxy win as Ukraine shows opening a sea corridor is easier than winning a land battle.

They don't need the Houthis defeated that would need soldiers. They just need to open the sea corridor. It'll be hard and ongoing but there is no choice bar hitting Iran directly

[Stairway 2 7]

Well the poop has hit the fan. They have struck through proxies previously. Iran has just hit the US embassy and an army base in Erbil with ballistic missiles. Irans revolutionary guards have taken responsibility.

US did nothing when Iran supplied Russia with drones, funded Hamas, supplied drones to Houthis to hit civilians and hit us bases through proxies. The US surely can't still do nothing now. Appeasement doesn't work with people who want destruction

[Moulin Yarns]

Well the poop has hit the fan. They have struck through proxies previously. Iran has just hit the US embassy and an army base in Erbil with ballistic missiles. Irans revolutionary guards have taken responsibility.

US did nothing when Iran supplied Russia with drones, funded Hamas, supplied drones to Houthis to hit civilians and hit us bases through proxies. The US surely can't still do nothing now. Appeasement doesn't work with people who want destruction



https://www-dailysabah-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/iran-carries-out-strikes-near-us-base-in-iraqs-irbil/amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17053580123488&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailysabah.com%2Fworld% 2Fmid-east%2Firan-carries-out-strikes-near-us-base-in-iraqs-irbil




Is that the same story?

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www-dailysabah-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/iran-carries-out-strikes-near-us-base-in-iraqs-irbil/amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17053580123488&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailysabah.com%2Fworld% 2Fmid-east%2Firan-carries-out-strikes-near-us-base-in-iraqs-irbil




Is that the same story?

Yeah a bit worrying

[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah a bit worrying

Nowhere in that article does it say that missiles hit us base or embassy!!

[Stairway 2 7]

Nowhere in that article does it say that missiles hit us base or embassy!!

Well that's that then haha

Here's footage of one of the strikes it's ballistic by the speed
https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1747005682799272341

Many reports including kurdish and US say US Consulate, the US Al-Harir base and the international airport hit

[Moulin Yarns]

Well that's that then haha

Here's footage of one of the strikes it's ballistic by the speed
https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1747005682799272341

Many reports including kurdish and US say US Consulate, the US Al-Harir base and the international airport hit

I've still seen no reports on mainstream news. I do wonder where you get your information.


Latest on the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67989193

[Stairway 2 7]

I've still seen no reports on mainstream news. I do wonder where you get your information.


Latest on the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67989193

Masrour Barzani kurdish pm had said the US Consulate was damaged but the US state department are saying US building weren't targeted. Al Jazeera are saying that the US are keen to downplay the incident. BBC is sharing the crazy Iranian line that it was different Mossad centres hit. Probably wait to see what was actually hit

I hope the US aren't hit any time soon only as eventually they would be forced to retaliate.

It looks like some kurdish civilian buildings were destroyed though. The only group of people no one will march for and no politician will tweet about. Their civilians are getting hammered from Iran and Turkey

[Keith_M]

The situation in the middle east is worrying enough without people posting inaccurate 'news'.


It might be best to check the details/sources first before posting.

[Moulin Yarns]

The situation in the middle east is worrying enough without people posting inaccurate 'news'.


It might be best to check the details/sources first before posting.

Absolutely. 👍

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-67999465

Iran is becoming a big problem, firing on Pakistan now.

[Keith_M]

Just been watching some really upsetting news reports from hospitals in Gaza, where doctors are having to treat patients, and perform surgery, with little to no medicine.

One young lad had to have his leg amputated after an Israeli air strike... without anesthetic.


Anybody supporting these evil *******s is beneath contempt.

[neil7908]

So, looks like a regional war that we'll inevitably be dragged into.

Just what we need 😔😔

[Moulin Yarns]

Pakistan retaliate against Iran, several dead.

[greenginger]

Just been watching some really upsetting news reports from hospitals in Gaza, where doctors are having to treat patients, and perform surgery, with little to no medicine.

One young lad had to have his leg amputated after an Israeli air strike... without anesthetic.


Anybody supporting these evil *******s is beneath contempt.

Are there no such thing as hospital ships ?

A couple of those, U N run, anchored off the Gaza coast could relieve some of the suffering and not provide cover for Hamas operatives.

[Moulin Yarns]

Are there no such thing as hospital ships ?

A couple of those, U N run, anchored off the Gaza coast could relieve some of the suffering and not provide cover for Hamas operatives.

Israel control the water off gaza though.

[greenginger]

Israel control the water off gaza though.

I know but has a hospital ship ever been proposed.

It would probably suit the Israelis , take away cover for Hamas, and less political flack.

[Just Alf]

Israel control the water off gaza though.Yup even before this all kicked off they wouldn't allow Gaza to fish out to its internationally recognised 12 mile limit instead keeping them hemmed in to 6 miles, this in turn decimated the local fish stocks / fishing industry

[MKHIBEE]

I know but has a hospital ship ever been proposed.

It would probably suit the Israelis , take away cover for Hamas, and less political flack.
I doubt saving innocent Palestinian lives is a priority for the Israelis, if it was we wouldn’t have a death toll of over 20,000.

[greenginger]

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/10/un-must-coordinate-field-hospitals-and-hospital-ships-gaza

There seems to have been a call for hospital ships but that’s as far as it has got.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/10/un-must-coordinate-field-hospitals-and-hospital-ships-gaza

There seems to have been a call for hospital ships but that’s as far as it has got.

Are there a lot of these things lying about?[emoji2369]


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[Lendo]

Pakistan retaliate against Iran, several dead.

Here we go. The death spiral has begun.

[Keith_M]

Are there no such thing as hospital ships ?

A couple of those, U N run, anchored off the Gaza coast could relieve some of the suffering and not provide cover for Hamas operatives.


If the UK, US and EU countries grew a set of balls, they would send hospital ships, and defend them with their own navy.

I wonder why they don't...

[greenginger]

Are there a lot of these things lying about?[emoji2369]


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How about this one ?

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9726499

Seemingly China has 11 hospital ships.

[Moulin Yarns]

How about this one ?

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9726499

Seemingly China has 11 hospital ships.

We could donate the Bibby Stockholm 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68040493

It's getting worse!!

[Stairway 2 7]

I like Micheal Horowitz here's a good new article on Ben-Gvir and Smotrich. Two people who were seen as outsiders but are now in Netanyahus horrible right wing government. Hopefully these ****bags are defeated at the next election as is expected

https://en.majalla.com/node/308766/profiles/ben-gvir-and-smotrich-extremist-duo-who-rose-power-israel

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68064422?at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_type=web_link&at_format=link&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=E4F9E982-B96F-11EE-B9B2-5C7ED9B5F045&at_link_origin=BBCBreaking&at_campaign_type=owned&at_medium=social

Last lot of air strikes must not have worked?[emoji849]


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68064422?at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_type=web_link&at_format=link&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=E4F9E982-B96F-11EE-B9B2-5C7ED9B5F045&at_link_origin=BBCBreaking&at_campaign_type=owned&at_medium=social

Last lot of air strikes must not have worked?[emoji849]


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Good stuff. Through satellite images it was shown two of the strikes blew up ballistic missiles in their launchers. Not sure if there is anyone who wouldn't be happy about that.

[Ozyhibby]

Good stuff. Through satellite images it was shown two of the strikes blew up ballistic missiles in their launchers. Not sure if there is anyone who wouldn't be happy about that.

I just doubt this will be successful. The low cost missiles and drones has changed things. The Houthi’s have managed to implement a naval blockade without having a navy. This is the first time this has ever been done and will have big consequences here and elsewhere.
I don’t believe we can stop them just by launching missiles at them, it is going to require ground forces and I don’t think we have the desire to do that.
I think the Red Sea will remain closed for as long as the houthis want it to be.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I just doubt this will be successful. The low cost missiles and drones has changed things. The Houthi’s have managed to implement a naval blockade without having a navy. This is the first time this has ever been done and will have big consequences here and elsewhere.
I don’t believe we can stop them just by launching missiles at them, it is going to require ground forces and I don’t think we have the desire to do that.
I think the Red Sea will remain closed for as long as the houthis want it to be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So what is your plan do nothing. Probably needs a new thread as this has nothing to do with Israel it's Iran wanting instability.

We could do nothing and increase world prices for shipping, cause inflation, burn millions of litres of fuel in rerouting and have the ships that do cross hit by missles. Or we could try to do something. Long range drones need runways and missles need launch pads, everyone hit is a bonus

[Ozyhibby]

So what is your plan do nothing. Probably needs a new thread as this has nothing to do with Israel it's Iran wanting instability.

We could do nothing and increase world prices for shipping, cause inflation, burn millions of litres of fuel in rerouting and have the ships that do cross hit by missles. Or we could try to do something. Long range drones need runways and missles need launch pads, everyone hit is a bonus

I would focus on stopping Isreal for now before dealing with Iran. Stopping Isreal may give some breathing space as far as the Houthis go.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I would focus on stopping Isreal for now before dealing with Iran. Stopping Isreal may give some breathing space as far as the Houthis go.


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I think it's pie in the that Hamas or Israel will stop they have the means to go on their own. Houthis also will do the same as they have been doing for years, they are using Israel as a smokescreen it a nonsense. Greek and Danish ships hit who had no connection to Israel but Russian and Chinese ships have been told they can pass. This is Houthis Iran and Russia destabilising. To sit back and let them block it and hit civilians when they want shows these states they can do what they want. It weak and it stems from Europe being week when Crimea was stolen

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/skynews/status/1749860062149963778?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Wonder if this means we are considering ground forces?


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/skynews/status/1749860062149963778?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Wonder if this means we are considering ground forces?


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Probably for their safety I doubt the Houthis are thinking kindly of the British in Yemen. Similar travel advice and leave advice happens in hotspots, all British were told to leave Gaza recently

[Bishop Hibee]

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/a-short-history-of-the-aden-emergency#:~:text=In%201839%20Britain%20captured%2 0the,lines%20of%20communication%20with%20India.

Nice wee history of British involvement in the Yemen area here. Wonder why they don’t like us?

[Moulin Yarns]

Probably for their safety I doubt the Houthis are thinking kindly of the British in Yemen. Similar travel advice and leave advice happens in hotspots, all British were told to leave Gaza recently

Leave gaza?? Good luck with that!!!!

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/skynews/status/1750432252322828549?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Even the Tories realise they are supporting a genocide. Starmer will likely fall into line now hopefully.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/patrickmcnamar3/status/1750492988969480519?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Starmer going full Arsene Wenger.


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[MKHIBEE]

https://x.com/patrickmcnamar3/status/1750492988969480519?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Starmer going full Arsene Wenger.


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Starmer showing his “unequivocal” support for the zionists

[Stairway 2 7]

Absolutely brutal murder of innocent civilians in Gaza with literal white flags, evil *******s. Its not new though its been happening for decades

[MKHIBEE]

Absolutely brutal murder of innocent civilians in Gaza with literal white flags, evil *******s. Its not new though its been happening for decades
And very few people bothered then.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/ozkaterji/status/1750861406365254056?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[MKHIBEE]

The ICJ comment on South Africa’s case against Israel

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/1/26/live-icj-to-issue-preliminary-ruling-in-south-africa-genocide-case-against-i

[Stairway 2 7]

So ICJ say they should stop the genocide but can continue the fighting in Gaza

UN hasn't been fit for purpose in years, we see it when Russia gets to head the security council whilst invading Ukraine

[MKHIBEE]

So ICJ say they should stop the genocide but can continue the fighting in Gaza

UN hasn't been fit for purpose in years, we see it when Russia gets to head the security council whilst invading Ukraine
A rock and a hard place situation, stop the fighting then Hamas can regroup, carry on fighting, innocents die.

[RIP]

The US needs to import more oil and gas. It can only import from a friendly state.

Israel needs exports.

Gaza has oil and gas.

Israel is taking over land in Gaza

[Ozyhibby]

The US needs to import more oil and gas. It can only import from a friendly state.

Israel needs exports.

Gaza has oil and gas.

Israel is taking over land in Gaza

The US is a net exporter of both Oil and Gas.


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[MKHIBEE]

The US needs to import more oil and gas. It can only import from a friendly state.

Israel needs exports.

Gaza has oil and gas.

Israel is taking over land in Gaza

The gas and oil are in offshore fields, in the main the Palestinian Authority have the access and drilling rights to these fields

[speedy_gonzales]

I don't think I've commented on this thread since the atrocities committed back in October, I've just read and watched the news in pretty much silence, but this recent attack by the IDF needs to be addressed. Israel wants to be part of the "west" but this isn't how we operate is it (with the exception of maybe the US raid Osama Bin Ladens compound)?
This was a targeted assassination and execution of militants suspected of planning a further attack, and one that was lying in bed paralysed (alleged).
Israel isn't even trying to cover up or hide these attacks which must be as illegal as those on October 7th attacks?!?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68137050

[AgentDaleCooper]

I don't think I've commented on this thread since the atrocities committed back in October, I've just read and watched the news in pretty much silence, but this recent attack by the IDF needs to be addressed. Israel wants to be part of the "west" but this isn't how we operate is it (with the exception of maybe the US raid Osama Bin Ladens compound)?
This was a targeted assassination and execution of militants suspected of planning a further attack, and one that was lying in bed paralysed (alleged).
Israel isn't even trying to cover up or hide these attacks which must be as illegal as those on October 7th attacks?!?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68137050


it's not how we like to be seen to operate, but the UK has a proud history of state terrorism that goes back centuries, continued throughout the last century in Ireland, not to mention sponsoring a cornucopia of nutters all over the world when it suits us.

the whole notion of the 'civilised west' is absolute self aggrandizing colonial nonsense. i'd much rather live in a western country, but as much as anything else that's because we've made the rest of the world so unstable.

[speedy_gonzales]

it's not how we like to be seen to operate, but the UK has a proud history of state terrorism that goes back centuries, continued throughout the last century in Ireland, not to mention sponsoring a cornucopia of nutters all over the world when it suits us.

the whole notion of the 'civilised west' is absolute self aggrandizing colonial nonsense. i'd much rather live in a western country, but as much as anything else that's because we've made the rest of the world so unstable.

Yeah, not disagreeing with what you've said. I'm well aware the UK has been involved in plenty of unsavoury political and military endeavours, some even "illegal". But, I can't recall a time our "special forces" have invaded a foreign land, dressed as medical staff and patients to execute targets knowing full well they'd be seen on camera.
It's a two finger salute to the rest of the world.
I'm not arguing that a state shouldn't protect itself from aggressors but I doubt it this was the right way to do it and I get the impression Israel doesn't care about the optics anymore.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think I've commented on this thread since the atrocities committed back in October, I've just read and watched the news in pretty much silence, but this recent attack by the IDF needs to be addressed. Israel wants to be part of the "west" but this isn't how we operate is it (with the exception of maybe the US raid Osama Bin Ladens compound)?
This was a targeted assassination and execution of militants suspected of planning a further attack, and one that was lying in bed paralysed (alleged).
Israel isn't even trying to cover up or hide these attacks which must be as illegal as those on October 7th attacks?!?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68137050

This or the Bin Laden raid isn't in anyway comparable to October 7th . These three were terrorist soldiers and a general who helped murder innocent civilians.

Israel are saying they were undercover police in a war zone. I don't believe them I think it's probably a war crime against a squad who commit war crimes by using hospitals so freely. If the had army uniform on and killed then in the hospital I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think it's disgusting to compare it to October the 7th, they may have been Jews who have a terrorist government but they were innocent civilians not soldiers

There have been hundreds of war crimes in the genocide Israel is perpetrating, this is low down the list compared to shooting journalists with sniper rifles

[speedy_gonzales]

This or the Bin Laden raid isn't in anyway comparable to October 7th . These three were terrorist soldiers and a general who helped murder innocent civilians.

Israel are saying they were undercover police in a war zone. I don't believe them I think it's probably a war crime against a squad who commit war crimes by using hospitals so freely. If the had army uniform on and killed then in the hospital I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think it's disgusting to compare it to October the 7th, they may have been Jews who have a terrorist government but they were innocent civilians not soldiers

There have been hundreds of war crimes in the genocide Israel is perpetrating, this is low down the list compared to shooting journalists with sniper rifles

I deliberately refrain from posting on these threads as posters can sometimes take away views/opinions that were not intended.
I apologise if my clumsy language made it look like I was comparing the October Hamas attack as being equal to the killing of the three Palestinian fighters, that's absurd and not what I meant. I was looking at it from the "legality" side.
Just my unsolicited opinion, if Israeli soldiers/special forces can walk in to a hospital outwith the State of Israel, and kill unarmed men without reproach from other countries, then where is this all going to end?
I'm well aware this conflict has went on for an age and won't end anytime soon, but it never will as long as these acts are not only carried out, but also never called out.

Edited to add, I only mentioned Bin Laden as that was a state sponsored execution. It still doesn't sit right with me that there was apparently little consideration to detain/arrest once his location was made known. Apparently, if captured alive it may have sparked further terrorist events. I understand that, but we'll now never know.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Yeah, not disagreeing with what you've said. I'm well aware the UK has been involved in plenty of unsavoury political and military endeavours, some even "illegal". But, I can't recall a time our "special forces" have invaded a foreign land, dressed as medical staff and patients to execute targets knowing full well they'd be seen on camera.
It's a two finger salute to the rest of the world.
I'm not arguing that a state shouldn't protect itself from aggressors but I doubt it this was the right way to do it and I get the impression Israel doesn't care about the optics anymore.

check out 'Gangs and Counter Gangs' by Major Frank Kitson - it's basically a manual for armed forces on how to pretend to be civilians whilst really being extremely effective terrorists, causing maximal chaos and destruction in the process. Forged in Ireland, still being used in Palestine, amongst many other places.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I deliberately refrain from posting on these threads as posters can sometimes take away views/opinions that were not intended.
I apologise if my clumsy language made it look like I was comparing the October Hamas attack as being equal to the king of

don't worry, Stairway and Ozyhibs will keep you right :aok:

[speedy_gonzales]

don't worry, Stairway and Ozyhibs will keep you right :aok:

You quoted too soon, fat fingers and all that...

[silverhibee]

This or the Bin Laden raid isn't in anyway comparable to October 7th . These three were terrorist soldiers and a general who helped murder innocent civilians.

Israel are saying they were undercover police in a war zone. I don't believe them I think it's probably a war crime against a squad who commit war crimes by using hospitals so freely. If the had army uniform on and killed then in the hospital I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think it's disgusting to compare it to October the 7th, they may have been Jews who have a terrorist government but they were innocent civilians not soldiers

There have been hundreds of war crimes in the genocide Israel is perpetrating, this is low down the list compared to shooting journalists with sniper rifles

Why was one of them running about carrying a wheelchair, did they intend to take someone to interrogate or was it in case one of them got injured and they couldn’t leave them behind, just thought the wheelchair carrier was a bit strange.

[Stairway 2 7]

Why was one of them running about carrying a wheelchair, did they intend to take someone to interrogate or was it in case one of them got injured and they couldn’t leave them behind, just thought the wheelchair carrier was a bit strange.

I'm not excusing it I think it's abhorrent but I was just saying it wasn't comparable to October 7th. He's said it wasn't his intention and I probably misunderstood. It's bizarre around it looked like a scene from a movie not a special forces op.

I don't believe anything Israel say and I don't believe they were just plain clothes police officers making it legal. I do think it's low down on their crimes though, nothing compared to shooting kids with rocks in their hands, pouring concrete into Palestinian drinking water reserves or building homes or private Palestinian property ect

[AgentDaleCooper]

I'm not excusing it I think it's abhorrent but I was just saying it wasn't comparable to October 7th. He's said it wasn't his intention and I probably misunderstood. It's bizarre around it looked like a scene from a movie not a special forces op.

I don't believe anything Israel say and I don't believe they were just plain clothes police officers making it legal. I do think it's low down on their crimes though, nothing compared to shooting kids with rocks in their hands, pouring concrete into Palestinian drinking water reserves or building homes or private Palestinian property ect

I think sometimes people confuse comparison of category with comparison of value or severity - i understood the point as being a comparison of the former, i.e. israelis engaging in acts of terrorism a la hamas.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think sometimes people confuse comparison of category with comparison of value or severity - i understood the point as being a comparison of the former, i.e. israelis engaging in acts of terrorism a la hamas.

There is zero comparison in category or value. It's like saying shoplifting and murder can be grouped as they are both crimes. It's poor and it downplays the evil of October the 7th whataboutery. Killing 3 terrorist isn't terrorism they were right to kill them, dressing as civilians in to kill terrorists in a war zone is a war crime though. As for Bin Laden Pakistan wasn't giving him up so they US did what it had to my hard doesn't bleed for monsters who slaughter thousands of civilians. My heart wouldn't bleed if Putin or Netanyahu got the same

[MKHIBEE]

This or the Bin Laden raid isn't in anyway comparable to October 7th . These three were terrorist soldiers and a general who helped murder innocent civilians.

Israel are saying they were undercover police in a war zone. I don't believe them I think it's probably a war crime against a squad who commit war crimes by using hospitals so freely. If the had army uniform on and killed then in the hospital I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think it's disgusting to compare it to October the 7th, they may have been Jews who have a terrorist government but they were innocent civilians not soldiers

There have been hundreds of war crimes in the genocide Israel is perpetrating, this is low down the list compared to shooting journalists with sniper rifles


Without wishing to understate the horrors of that day, they were not all civilians who were killed by Hamas fighters.

[Stairway 2 7]

Without wishing to understate the horrors of that day, they were not all civilians who were killed by Hamas fighters.

Jeezo your right the soldiers were legitimate targets imo but 400 bairns at a rave old people and kids in their homes cars and in the street were definitely not. As in Gaza the horror is through the civilians murdered not the soldiers.

[Moulin Yarns]

This or the Bin Laden raid isn't in anyway comparable to October 7th . These three were terrorist soldiers and a general who helped murder innocent civilians.

Israel are saying they were undercover police in a war zone. I don't believe them I think it's probably a war crime against a squad who commit war crimes by using hospitals so freely. If the had army uniform on and killed then in the hospital I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think it's disgusting to compare it to October the 7th, they may have been Jews who have a terrorist government but they were innocent civilians not soldiers

There have been hundreds of war crimes in the genocide Israel is perpetrating, this is low down the list compared to shooting journalists with sniper rifles

Last time I looked, the west bank wasn't 'officially' a war zone, although Israel would probably disagree.

[Stairway 2 7]

Last time I looked, the west bank wasn't 'officially' a war zone, although Israel would probably disagree.

It's a part of Israel to the Israelis but the international court of justice see Israel as the occupying power. Under the deal with the PA Israel forces are allowed to enter the West Bank. They are wanting a similar deal in Gaza post war meaning they can enter with forces for security reasons. Its terrible they can enter and a two state solution and sovereign territory is a must. Some including me say it hasn't stopped being a war zone and Israel are the occupying force

The debate about the hospital now seems to be whether it was IDF or ISA (the police) that formed the raid. The IDF soldiers aren't allowed to hide who they are, whereas police can go undercover. Israel at first said it was a joint operation but are now saying no IDF were on the ground. They usually don't justify their war crimes

[Ozyhibby]

Houthi’s naval blockade on Red Sea continues despite them not having a navy. Strikes have had zero impact.

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-and-us-airstrikes-may-degrade-the-ability-of-houthis-to-attack-but-theres-little-sign-theyre-a-deterrent-13063740?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter


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[grunt]

https://youtu.be/5IvdffjL5h0?si=8MazLRJgR6uefCNf

[Stairway 2 7]

The queers for Palestine group that were singing for the Houthi’s to turn the ships round might have other things to say to the the Houthi’s. Evil barbaric ****bags

https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1367225/13-sentenced-to-death-for-homosexuality-in-yemen-source.html
13 sentenced to death for homosexuality in Yemen

[AgentDaleCooper]

The queers for Palestine group that were singing for the Houthi’s to turn the ships round might have other things to say to the the Houthi’s. Evil barbaric ****bags

https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1367225/13-sentenced-to-death-for-homosexuality-in-yemen-source.html
13 sentenced to death for homosexuality in Yemen


absolutely rubbish take. i know it's annoying when 'right on' groups get a hold of the wrong end of a stick then start waving it about, and of course, it is absolutely horrific and inexcusable that people should be executed for who they love - but if you or i had been born in Yemen, there's every chance we would be of the same opinion as these extremists. The place has been being destroyed by the Saudis for over a decade, in an already highly unstable part of the world.

Whilst I absolutely agree that there will be evil barbaric ****bags amongst the Houthis, to tar them all with that brush absolutely reeks of colonial hubris. the fact is, we're sitting comfortably behind our computers/on our phones at home or on a bus or whatever, whilst they are reacting to having the **** bombed out of them for decades in a region that we seem absolutely hell bend on keeping totally destabilised. We (i.e. the west) have played a significant, most likely decisive part in creating the environment in which extremism, fundamentalism and barbarism thrive.

[Stairway 2 7]

absolutely rubbish take. i know it's annoying when 'right on' groups get a hold of the wrong end of a stick then start waving it about, and of course, it is absolutely horrific and inexcusable that people should be executed for who they love - but if you or i had been born in Yemen, there's every chance we would be of the same opinion as these extremists. The place has been being destroyed by the Saudis for over a decade, in an already highly unstable part of the world.

Whilst I absolutely agree that there will be evil barbaric ****bags amongst the Houthis, to tar them all with that brush absolutely reeks of colonial hubris. the fact is, we're sitting comfortably behind our computers/on our phones at home or on a bus or whatever, whilst they are reacting to having the **** bombed out of them for decades in a region that we seem absolutely hell bend on keeping totally destabilised. We (i.e. the west) have played a significant, most likely decisive part in creating the environment in which extremism, fundamentalism and barbarism thrive.

White guilt explaining away **** who are about to murder homosexuals. We would want gay people murdered too if we were born there, what a load of mince. Ukrainians have been bombed and had genocide committed on them for a decade but I wouldn't use that as any justification if they decided to commit human rights violations to this scale. Rwandans, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Moari all could all say we were treated like dirtand dehumanised so we'll murder homosexuals

When does a government or army ever become accountable for their actions or do the just hit its our colonisers fault. Houthis aren't the Yemeni people obviously, the same way Hamas isn't Palestinians or Netanyahu the Israelis or Jews. Houthis have been committing genocide on the Yemenis for decades. Both sides the Saudis and the Houthis are abhorrent with no respect for human rights

[DaveF]

Not that Israel cares but another probable breach of International Law.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68249962

[DaveF]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286

Another one for Netanyahu and his murderous regime to be proud of.

[Keith_M]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286

Another one for Netanyahu and his murderous regime to be proud of.


A six year old murdered by the Israeli Army.

They must be so proud.

[DaveF]

All that's left if to flatten Rafah and that's what they intend to do next. Never mind the fact that up to 1.5m people are crammed in or around there as it is (was) a safe zone.

Never mind though. The US and co have said they are 'concerned' if this happens. That'll worry the nazi wannabes in Israel.

[MKHIBEE]

All that's left if to flatten Rafah and that's what they intend to do next. Never mind the fact that up to 1.5m people are crammed in or around there as it is (was) a safe zone.

Never mind though. The US and co have said they are 'concerned' if this happens. That'll worry the nazi wannabes in Israel.
“Israel has the right to defend itself” said the blind, stupid, deaf and moronic among us. Hell mend every last one of them

[neil7908]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286

Another one for Netanyahu and his murderous regime to be proud of.

How anyone can hear stories like this and continue to back Israel I will never understand.

They are quite literally getting away with murder. Not only getting away, being aided and abetted by our wonderful leaders, who are apparently happy to excuse genocide when it's being committed by an ally.

The older I get the more I understand why people don't want to vote any more - Biden, Starmer etc all have blood on their hands.

[Berwickhibby]

“Israel has the right to defend itself” said the blind, stupid, deaf and moronic among us. Hell mend every last one of them

Isreal “had” the right to defend itself and try to rescue hostages taken by Hamas, however the cruel and barbaric way they have gone about it their attacks have lost any sympathy I originally had.

[MKHIBEE]

Isreal “had” the right to defend itself and try to rescue hostages taken by Hamas, however the cruel and barbaric way they have gone about it their attacks have lost any sympathy I originally had.

They were not “defending” themselves. They were an oppressive force who were attacked by those they oppressed. In such a way that it was then easy to accede the moral high ground to the Israelis. They then retaliated in the most horrendous manner. And continue on their genocidal mission. With very little comeback from anyone.

[Berwickhibby]

They were not “defending” themselves. They were an oppressive force who were attacked by those they oppressed. In such a way that it was then easy to accede the moral high ground to the Israelis. They then retaliated in the most horrendous manner. And continue on their genocidal mission. With very little comeback from anyone.

So the original Hamas attack was acceptable…on women, children, rape and execution. However the Israeli response has been 10 fold worse. I don’t have the answer, but unimpressed with the support being provided by the US and UK for Israel.

[MKHIBEE]

So the original Hamas attack was acceptable…on women, children, rape and execution. However the Israeli response has been 10 fold worse. I don’t have the answer, but unimpressed with the support being provided by the US and UK for Israel.

Where have I claimed it was acceptable?

[Berwickhibby]

Where have I claimed it was acceptable?

Ok…I stand corrected, I obviously misunderstood your post. Personally I think the deaths caused by Hamas and Israelis abhorrent

[MKHIBEE]

Ok…I stand corrected, I obviously misunderstood your post. Personally I think the deaths caused by Hamas and Israelis abhorrent

The attacks on civilians, by both sides, deserve to be condemned, as they are, as you quite rightly point out, abhorrent. However, people who tried to justify the initial Israeli action as them defending themselves doesn’t wash with me. Hamas’ original attack and the response are just the 2 latest episodes in a conflict that been going on for decade.

[Keith_M]

The Israelis successfully rescued two hostages in Gaza... and managed to kill over 60 Palestinians, the majority of whom were innocent civilians, while doing so.