Indy Ref 2

[marinello59]

And we are off and running. :greengrin

[marinello59]

We will be voting again at some point between Autumn next year and Spring 2019. Bring it on.

[Hibrandenburg]

Game on! It's Jocky at the oche!

[Hibrandenburg]

Is it a mistake to have stated the Indy Ref could be cancelled if a suitable brexit deal gets put on the table? Think she's left herself open for another "Vow" type manoeuvre.

[Sylar]

This doesn't confirm another Independence referendum - it merely says she's going to ask for permission for one. I sincerely doubt Westminster will grant her that.

[johnbc70]

This doesn't confirm another Independence referendum - it merely says she's going to ask for permission for one. I sincerely doubt Westminster will grant her that.

So what happens if they say No, where does she go?!

[marinello59]

This doesn't confirm another Independence referendum - it merely says she's going to ask for permission for one. I sincerely doubt Westminster will grant her that.

It would be a remarkably stupid move by Westminster to block it. May might try and influence the timing of it but it is unlikely that she will refuse to allow it to go ahead.

[bingo70]

It would be a remarkably stupid move by Westminster to block it. May might try and influence the timing of it but it is unlikely that she will refuse to allow it to go ahead.

She doesn't strike me as someone that really gives a monkeys what people in Scotland think.

What are the possible consequences of her saying no to the vote? Nobody voted for her party up here anyway.

[Bristolhibby]

Is it a mistake to have stated the Indy Ref could be cancelled if a suitable brexit deal gets put on the table? Think she's left herself open for another "Vow" type manoeuvre.

It may, and it's a risk. But once bitten, twice shy.
Also, I genuinely believe they will make a total James Blint out of the Brexit negotiations that Independence will be even more attractive. I also think the EU will use Scotland to leverage the rUK.

Perfect timing, and gives the Tories the rope to hang themselves.

This time before the 2014 referendum Yes was at 28%. Today Yes is a ball hair from 50-50. It's only going one direction.

J

[Bristolhibby]

She doesn't strike me as someone that really gives a monkeys what people in Scotland think.

What are the possible consequences of her saying no to the vote? Nobody voted for her party up here anyway.

The consequences would be a guaranteed Yes Vote. She knows that, which is why it will be agreed.

Imagine an unelected, austerity cutting, Hard Brexit steering Westminster Prime Minister telling Scotland that they can't have a vote!

J

[frazeHFC]

Aw god not again. Will be many people getting unfollowed on social media, was draining last time.

[bingo70]

The consequences would be a guaranteed Yes Vote. She knows that, which is why it will be agreed.

Imagine an unelected, austerity cutting, Hard Brexit steering Westminster Prime Minister telling Scotland that they can't have a vote!

J

Wouldn't be a guaranteed yes vote if there's no election.

[Moulin Yarns]

Stolen from Twitterhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6zCnbMW0AELAUv.jpg:large

[1875M]

Aw god not again. Will be many people getting unfollowed on social media, was draining last time.

This was honestly my first thought. Some of the stuff on behalf of both the Yes and No campaign was frankly embarrassing

[Green Man]

Although I'm 100% in favour of independence, I wasn't sure whether I wanted another referendum so soon. Now it's on the cards I'm delighted that we'll (if all goes to plan) get another chance to go for it. The Yes campaign is in a much stronger starting position this time round. Bring it on.

[frazeHFC]

This was honestly my first thought. Some of the stuff on behalf of both the Yes and No campaign was frankly embarrassing

Yeah and the complete non-respect for people's views annoyed me. "If you vote x you are an embarrassment" etc. I'll decide thanks ya plumb.

[Hibs Class]

She doesn't strike me as someone that really gives a monkeys what people in Scotland think.

What are the possible consequences of her saying no to the vote? Nobody voted for her party up here anyway.

As opposed to Sturgeon who only doesn't give a monkeys about what a majority of people in Scotland think, otherwise she wouldn't be wanting to ask the same question again so soon. Once in a lifetime / generation?!

[Moulin Yarns]

As opposed to Sturgeon who only doesn't give a monkeys about what a majority of people in Scotland think, otherwise she wouldn't be wanting to ask the same question again so soon. Once in a lifetime / generation?!

Probably is in parts of the west of Scotland, or if you are a lemming :wink:

[Bristolhibby]

As opposed to Sturgeon who only doesn't give a monkeys about what a majority of people in Scotland think, otherwise she wouldn't be wanting to ask the same question again so soon. Once in a lifetime / generation?!

Does Brexit not entitle folk to think again?

[marinello59]

As opposed to Sturgeon who only doesn't give a monkeys about what a majority of people in Scotland think, otherwise she wouldn't be wanting to ask the same question again so soon. Once in a lifetime / generation?!

She does have a clear mandate to call for another referundum. Brexit was a total game changer.

[CropleyWasGod]

As opposed to Sturgeon who only doesn't give a monkeys about what a majority of people in Scotland think, otherwise she wouldn't be wanting to ask the same question again so soon. Once in a lifetime / generation?!

The majority being those who want to stay in the EU, you mean? :wink:

[SeanWilson]

As opposed to Sturgeon who only doesn't give a monkeys about what a majority of people in Scotland think, otherwise she wouldn't be wanting to ask the same question again so soon. Once in a lifetime / generation?!

As Warburton (who's a F@nny) once said: 'with respect', that majority was taken under very, very different circumstances and whether you are for or against, I'm not sure you can argue that it's not the democratic thing to now do. We have absolutely no say in 'brexit' and overwhelmingly voted for it not to happen.

[Pretty Boy]

It's a referendum that needs to be held imo. Brexit was, whether people like it or not, a game changer.

A vote either way now should answer the question for the forseeable. Tbh I'm undecided as it stands, leaning towards yes, but like last time my vote is up for grabs.

[Bristolhibby]

As Warburton (who's a F@nny) once said: 'with respect', that majority was taken under very, very different circumstances and whether you are for or against, I'm not sure you can argue that it's not the democratic thing to now do. We have absolutely no say in 'brexit' and overwhelmingly voted for it not to happen.

May I also add, especially not the type of Granite Hard Brexit that is being persued. Anyone remember the "Norway/Switzerland model" that was banded about.

J

[beensaidbefore]

The consequences would be a guaranteed Yes Vote. She knows that, which is why it will be agreed.

Imagine an unelected, austerity cutting, Hard Brexit steering Westminster Prime Minister telling Scotland that they can't have a vote!

J


Not so sure. I voted yes last time but would likely vote no if asked again. Perhaps once we know what brexit will bring, but not before.

[G B Young]

Bore off Sturgeon. The lack of respect for the 2014 result by the SNP has been a disgrace. There was ongoing agitation for a second vote long before Brexit provided a convenient cover story. Had the vote gone the other way three years ago and there had been a call from no voters for a second referendum do you think the SNP would have given that a second's consideration? Yet you'd think by their stance since 2014 that the yes voters had in some way been unjustly served at the ballot box. Yes, the SNP's rasion d'etre is an independent Scotland but their record as a government which is supposed to act in the interests of all Scottish citizens has been pitiful, such has been their monomanical obsession with indyref2.

It's a nonsense to suggest there's a groundswell of fear across Scotland about leaving the EU. In fact a good number of SNP members and supporters actually voted for Brexit (I voted remain incidentally). It's an excuse, not a reason for another tiresome referendum which will serve no purpose other than to stir up all the bitterness among the more rabid elements on both sides, which was the most depressing aspect of 2014. This is nothing to do with Brexit, it's all about power for the SNP. Stock phrases such as 'against our will' and 'hard Brexit cliff edge' are simply powerful sound bites.

[DaveF]

And I'd only just starting speaking to my no voting neighbour in the last few weeks. Oh well, here we go.....2 in a row.....kind of :-D

[Newry Hibs]

As Warburton (who's a F@nny) once said: 'with respect', that majority was taken under very, very different circumstances and whether you are for or against, I'm not sure you can argue that it's not the democratic thing to now do. We have absolutely no say in 'brexit' and overwhelmingly voted for it not to happen.

Scotland voted to remain in the UK. The UK voted to Exit the EU. Scotland didn't get a vote on this.

Otherwise 'London' could say 'we' want to stay. Maybe my household will leave the EU and my neighbours will stay in.

[Bristolhibby]

Not so sure. I voted yes last time but would likely vote no if asked again. Perhaps once we know what brexit will bring, but not before.

I guess that is why she mentioned Autumn 18 to Spring 19 at the earliest. Give people like yourself the chance to assess both options.

J

[northstandhibby]

I'm only going to post once on this thread due to my despising rampant nationalism that is the cause of most destruction historically. I am firmly against the SNP because of it albeit realising the juxtaposition of mainly English nationalism that caused brexit which has given scope for the SNP to raise its own form once again and call for another indy ref. Brexit has been a disaster for folk like me who detest nationalism. There is no doubt in my mind the SNP would win a re-run while causing massive division and disruption across the island called the UK we all happen to live on. The brexiteers like Gove and Johnson whom ran the campaign must have known this would happen and leads me to thinking there was a plan put in place to split the UK for reasons we are not privy to, possibly being the UK is bankrupt. The UK is finished if a second indy ref is called and I for one am vexed by the brexiteers who were duped into thinking breaking off from the EU was a sensible option.

glory glory

[HiBremian]

A vote in early 2019 would mean 4-5 years between the 2 referenda, coincidentally the same as the cycle of parliamentary elections. In this age of constant plebisites we maybe need to get used to it. After all, if a pro-EU gvt is elected to Westminster in 2025 (forget 2020!) there may well be another EU vote. And if a unionist majority is elected to Holyrood in an indy Scotland in 2026 (or whenever the next again election is) we could have a "re-join the union" vote. That's democracy at the mo, until someone comes up with a better system for radical constitutional change.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[stoneyburn hibs]

Delighted

[Speedy]

Bore off Sturgeon. The lack of respect for the 2014 result by the SNP has been a disgrace. There was ongoing agitation for a second vote long before Brexit provided a convenient cover story. Had the vote gone the other way three years ago and there had been a call from no voters for a second referendum do you think the SNP would have given that a second's consideration? Yet you'd think by their stance since 2014 that the yes voters had in some way been unjustly served at the ballot box. Yes, the SNP's rasion d'etre is an independent Scotland but their record as a government which is supposed to act in the interests of all Scottish citizens has been pitiful, such has been their monomanical obsession with indyref2.

It's a nonsense to suggest there's a groundswell of fear across Scotland about leaving the EU. In fact a good number of SNP members and supporters actually voted for Brexit (I voted remain incidentally). It's an excuse, not a reason for another tiresome referendum which will serve no purpose other than to stir up all the bitterness among the more rabid elements on both sides, which was the most depressing aspect of 2014. This is nothing to do with Brexit, it's all about power for the SNP. Stock phrases such as 'against our will' and 'hard Brexit cliff edge' are simply powerful sound bites.

If the population still want to stay then that's how they'll vote, if no then so be it. From that perspective I have no issue with another vote.

It would be nice though if we didn't spend a fortune and fall out in the process.

[SeanWilson]

Scotland voted to remain in the UK. The UK voted to Exit the EU. Scotland didn't get a vote on this.

Otherwise 'London' could say 'we' want to stay. Maybe my household will leave the EU and my neighbours will stay in.

London has nothing to do with this. The landscape in every shape and form has changed significantly and it is democratically correct to give the people of Scotland a choice. Until this morning I was probably in the no camp (voted yes previously). Now I'm in the 'we actually have an option, let's see what's best' camp. It was the right thing to do.

[stantonhibby]

A vote in early 2019 would mean 4-5 years between the 2 referenda, coincidentally the same as the cycle of parliamentary elections. In this age of constant plebisites we maybe need to get used to it. After all, if a pro-EU gvt is elected to Westminster in 2025 (forget 2020!) there may well be another EU vote. And if a unionist majority is elected to Holyrood in an indy Scotland in 2026 (or whenever the next again election is) we could have a "re-join the union" vote. That's democracy at the mo, until someone comes up with a better system for radical constitutional change.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Jeepers , you make it sound like the hokey-cokey! I can just about conceive of a future vote on Europe but as for independence, once we've gone that's it imo

[HiBremian]

Jeepers , you make it sound like the hokey-cokey! I can just about conceive of a future vote on Europe but as for independence, once we've gone that's it imo

You're probably right, but technically there's no reason why unionist parties won't stand in holyrood elections post-indy. Maybe Ruthie will rename her party the "Conservative and Hokey-Cokey" party :-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

Bore off Sturgeon. The lack of respect for the 2014 result by the SNP has been a disgrace. There was ongoing agitation for a second vote long before Brexit provided a convenient cover story. Had the vote gone the other way three years ago and there had been a call from no voters for a second referendum do you think the SNP would have given that a second's consideration? Yet you'd think by their stance since 2014 that the yes voters had in some way been unjustly served at the ballot box. Yes, the SNP's rasion d'etre is an independent Scotland but their record as a government which is supposed to act in the interests of all Scottish citizens has been pitiful, such has been their monomanical obsession with indyref2.

It's a nonsense to suggest there's a groundswell of fear across Scotland about leaving the EU. In fact a good number of SNP members and supporters actually voted for Brexit (I voted remain incidentally). It's an excuse, not a reason for another tiresome referendum which will serve no purpose other than to stir up all the bitterness among the more rabid elements on both sides, which was the most depressing aspect of 2014. This is nothing to do with Brexit, it's all about power for the SNP. Stock phrases such as 'against our will' and 'hard Brexit cliff edge' are simply powerful sound bites.

No purpose? Other than to settle the issue one way or another?

[Slavers]

I don't see the need to hold an independence referendum next year. Why not lets see what comes out the Brexit deal and then have the indyref2 vote? If that takes us until 2012 then I don't see a problem with that.

Asking people to vote on independence when they do not know what Brexit will look like is a bit unfair on the voter I think.

Bring It on though it will be a fierce battle I am sure.

[marinello59]

I don't see the need to hold an independence referendum next year. Why not lets see what comes out the Brexit deal and then have the indyref2 vote? If that takes us until 2012 then I don't see a problem with that.

Asking people to vote on independence when they do not know what Brexit will look like is a bit unfair on the voter I think.

Bring It on though it will be a fierce battle I am sure.

Which is why we are not doing that.

[Peevemor]

I don't see the need to hold an independence referendum next year. Why not lets see what comes out the Brexit deal and then have the indyref2 vote? If that takes us until 2012 then I don't see a problem with that.

Asking people to vote on independence when they do not know what Brexit will look like is a bit unfair on the voter I think.

Bring It on though it will be a fierce battle I am sure.

But we should a clearer view of what form Brexit will take by the autumn of next year - as stated by Nicola Sturgeon.

[Newry Hibs]

I guess that is why she mentioned Autumn 18 to Spring 19 at the earliest. Give people like yourself the chance to assess both options.

J

Or it is blatant opportunism. Around then is the crux of Brexit which may be fraught with difficulties and the UK gov spending time on this rather than on a second referendum.

[Hibs Class]

No purpose? Other than to settle the issue one way or another?

Except they said that last time around as well!

[speedy_gonzales]

If the population still want to stay then that's how they'll vote, if no then so be it. From that perspective I have no issue with another vote.
I personally do have an issue with having referendums ad nauseam until we get the desired outcome.
Referendums are important & vital in democracy, but where you have a binary choice of status quo or change, then we have to be careful to not lessen the process by repeatedly asking the same question until the "change" is returned as that will be the last referendum on that question.

[hibs0666]

A ****ing disgrace.

[The Modfather]

Can we have a separate thread for the usual suspects on both sides who take over the conversation and copy and paste their posts from the last thread :greengrin

All I hope is that Alastair Darling isn't involved this time, can't bare to look at those eyebrows again!

[Peevemor]

I personally do have an issue with having referendums ad nauseam until we get the desired outcome.
Referendums are important & vital in democracy, but where you have a binary choice of status quo or change, then we have to be careful to not lessen the process by repeatedly asking the same question until the "change" is returned as that will be the last referendum on that question.

But one of Better Together's main arguments was that an iScotland no longer be part of the EU. Now the opposite looks more likely. For me that nullifies the result of the first referendum.

[easty]

This doesn't confirm another Independence referendum - it merely says she's going to ask for permission for one. I sincerely doubt Westminster will grant her that.

Westminster won't block it.

Weird that Holyrood needs to ask permission to have a vote on breaking the union, I don't remember us ever asking the EU if it was ok to go ahead and vote on leaving that.

[HiBremian]

I personally do have an issue with having referendums ad nauseam until we get the desired outcome.
Referendums are important & vital in democracy, but where you have a binary choice of status quo or change, then we have to be careful to not lessen the process by repeatedly asking the same question until the "change" is returned as that will be the last referendum on that question.

As long as Scottish voters say no to indy, then promptly elect a pro-indy gvt at Holyrood, I would humbly suggest it's the voters' fault. Kez's latest federalism move doesn't seem to have set the house on fire either.

[easty]

Except they said that last time around as well!

You can't possibly deny that there has been a huge change of circumstances though?

It's not like the SNP have just decided that we should have another referendum because Limmy Show was only broadcast on BBC Scotland.

[Mikey]

Aw god not again. Will be many people getting unfollowed on social media, was draining last time.

Absolutely. I'm closing my facebook later today once I've swapped e-mail address with a couple of people so we don't lose touch altogether.

[JeMeSouviens]

A ****ing disgrace.

I was bit unsure but that's made my day. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

A ****ing disgrace.

Nice to see the reasoned debate has started already. :wink:

[stantonhibby]

No purpose? Other than to settle the issue one way or another?

Hmm, you would hope so but if it was say Yes 49% & No 51% for example I doubt it.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Does Brexit not entitle folk to think again?

Indeed it does, and my vote is likely to change from No to Yes.

[speedy_gonzales]

But one of Better Together's main arguments was that an iScotland no longer be part of the EU. Now the opposite looks more likely. For me that nullifies the result of the first referendum.

I didn't think that was one of their main arguments but fair enough if it was.
Unfortunately this was a referendum on independence, with many MANY issues on the line. We had our EU referendum last year and we are where we are because of that.
I still don't think it's right to have referendums every time there's a change on the political horizon, and as I say, a YES will signal the end of that particular referendum question,,,,is that how democracy works, keep asking the question until you get the right answer?

[CapitalGreen]

I didn't think that was one of their main arguments but fair enough if it was.
Unfortunately this was a referendum on independence, with many MANY issues on the line. We had our EU referendum last year and we are where we are because of that.
I still don't think it's right to have referendums every time there's a change on the political horizon, and as I say, a YES will signal the end of that particular referendum question,,,,is that how democracy works, keep asking the question until you get the right answer?

We have general elections every 4/5 years. Why not just have one election and keep those in power forever. Why keep asking the question until you get the government you want?

[SeanWilson]

I didn't think that was one of their main arguments but fair enough if it was.
Unfortunately this was a referendum on independence, with many MANY issues on the line. We had our EU referendum last year and we are where we are because of that.
I still don't think it's right to have referendums every time there's a change on the political horizon, and as I say, a YES will signal the end of that particular referendum question,,,,is that how democracy works, keep asking the question until you get the right answer?

Do you not feel in the least bit aggrieved that we're at the mercy of Westminster when it comes to 'brexit', whether for it or against? For me, the brexit vote and the subsequent ignorance/arrogance towards any opinion other than that of the hard line tory, makes this a must for the Scottish people. I'm not sure which way I'll vote in indyref2, however I'm glad I've now got a legitimate option and reasoned arguments (in between the rhetoric) to listen to over the next year or so.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6zHzU8XAAQqJbD.jpg

[-Jonesy-]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Game On

[Peevemor]

I didn't think that was one of their main arguments but fair enough if it was.
Unfortunately this was a referendum on independence, with many MANY issues on the line. We had our EU referendum last year and we are where we are because of that.
I still don't think it's right to have referendums every time there's a change on the political horizon, and as I say, a YES will signal the end of that particular referendum question,,,,is that how democracy works, keep asking the question until you get the right answer?

With support for the SNP at it's current level, talk of independence and another referendum is unavoidable. However, I'm fairly sure that had the Brexit vote gone the other way, it would have stayed as just talk for the foreseeable future.

The UK that people voted to remain part of is about to change radically and many of the arguments that were used against Scottish independence were used by the same people as reasons to vote remain in the Brexit vote.

Surely that's enough to justify another referendum?

[easty]

I didn't think that was one of their main arguments but fair enough if it was.
Unfortunately this was a referendum on independence, with many MANY issues on the line. We had our EU referendum last year and we are where we are because of that.
I still don't think it's right to have referendums every time there's a change on the political horizon, and as I say, a YES will signal the end of that particular referendum question,,,,is that how democracy works, keep asking the question until you get the right answer?

Every time? How many have I missed, cos I only voted in one.

[JackLadd]

Sturgeon is off her head. Just reading some of the comments in news sites, the English are mostly saying please go as we subsidise your free prescriptions, college degrees and care homes - all things they don't get. If we were subsidising England like they do us the Gnat fury would be rightly apoplectic. I don't want the Euro and I don't want to be run or bailed out by the Germans or IMF, Sturgeon. Because that is what will happen. The fools who elect people like Mhairi Black will not tolerate the cuts needed, they are all living in cloud cuckoo land like wee depressed Mhairi on her £80k a year.

[cabbageandribs1875]

the bitterness and hatred towards the leader of our country is thoroughly disgusting :bitchy:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15150383.Police_investigating_horrific_catalogue_o f_threats_and_abuse_against_Nicola_Sturgeon/?ref=ar


but the last comment from 'A Sam Holland' did raise a laugh

A Sam Holland @samhollandlcfc , who on January 8 in 2016, stated: "Wish Nicola Sturgeon would shut her horrible lesbian Scottish mouth" :hilarious

[easty]

Sturgeon is off her head. Just reading some of the comments in news sites, the English are mostly saying please go as we subsidise your free prescriptions, college degrees and care homes - all things they don't get. If we were subsidising England like they do us the Gnat fury would be rightly apoplectic. I don't want the Euro and I don't want to be run or bailed out by the Germans or IMF, Sturgeon. Because that is what will happen. The fools who elect people like Mhairi Black will not tolerate the cuts needed, they are all living in cloud cuckoo land like wee depressed Mhairi on her £80k a year.

That's quite a ramble. :aok:

What news sites, by the way? Daily Mail? :faf:

[allmodcons]

Does Brexit not entitle folk to think again?


Indeed it does, and my vote is likely to change from No to Yes.

Even in a small sub sample like Hibs.net there is proof that Brexit is/was a game changer.


Sturgeon is off her head. Just reading some of the comments in news sites, the English are mostly saying please go as we subsidise your free prescriptions, college degrees and care homes - all things they don't get. If we were subsidising England like they do us the Gnat fury would be rightly apoplectic. I don't want the Euro and I don't want to be run or bailed out by the Germans or IMF, Sturgeon. Because that is what will happen. The fools who elect people like Mhairi Black will not tolerate the cuts needed, they are all living in cloud cuckoo land like wee depressed Mhairi on her £80k a year.

You claim that almost half the electorate are fools whilst you (the clever one) are happy to believe anything printed in the comments section of the Daily Mail.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Sturgeon is off her head. Just reading some of the comments in news sites, the English are mostly saying please go as we subsidise your free prescriptions, college degrees and care homes - all things they don't get. If we were subsidising England like they do us the Gnat fury would be rightly apoplectic. I don't want the Euro and I don't want to be run or bailed out by the Germans or IMF, Sturgeon. Because that is what will happen. The fools who elect people like Mhairi Black will not tolerate the cuts needed, they are all living in cloud cuckoo land like wee depressed Mhairi on her £80k a year.



have you told any of these 'fools' what you think of them to their faces, or just on a keyboard ?

[High-On-Hibs]

Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that we voted to leave the EU as a "United" Kingdom. We quite evidently aren't united. Scotland doesn't get what it wants from this "united" kingdom 99% of the time, so why keep lying to yourselves?

Why are you so desperate to cling on to something that quite clearly isn't in the democratic interests of our nation? I just don't get it. :confused:

[steakbake]

It's a referendum that needs to be held imo. Brexit was, whether people like it or not, a game changer.

A vote either way now should answer the question for the forseeable. Tbh I'm undecided as it stands, leaning towards yes, but like last time my vote is up for grabs.

I agree with your first bit there. I thought her reasoning was right. This is a fundamental change and an opportunity for people to take the decision in amongst what any reasonable person would describe as a very significant change of circumstances.

[Peevemor]

have you told any of these 'fools' what you think of them to their faces, or just on a keyboard ?

He probably wouldn't even say it to Mhairi Black's face.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sturgeon is off her head. Just reading some of the comments in news sites, the English are mostly saying please go as we subsidise your free prescriptions, college degrees and care homes - all things they don't get. If we were subsidising England like they do us the Gnat fury would be rightly apoplectic. I don't want the Euro and I don't want to be run or bailed out by the Germans or IMF, Sturgeon. Because that is what will happen. The fools who elect people like Mhairi Black will not tolerate the cuts needed, they are all living in cloud cuckoo land like wee depressed Mhairi on her £80k a year.

You can vote No, you know. It's allowed.

[Moulin Yarns]

You can vote No, you know. It's allowed.

But the Gnats will chase him and find him and sting him :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

Sturgeon is off her head. Just reading some of the comments in news sites, the English are mostly saying please go as we subsidise your free prescriptions, college degrees and care homes - all things they don't get. If we were subsidising England like they do us the Gnat fury would be rightly apoplectic. I don't want the Euro and I don't want to be run or bailed out by the Germans or IMF, Sturgeon. Because that is what will happen. The fools who elect people like Mhairi Black will not tolerate the cuts needed, they are all living in cloud cuckoo land like wee depressed Mhairi on her £80k a year.

Another cracker from UnionJackLadd.

You honestly believe that a UK Government (a tory one at that) that governs over 64 million people would use tax payers money from England to subsidize the lives of 5.3 million people living in Scotland, a country that just doesn't vote for them ever? :faf:

Aye, I can see how that would make electoral sense. :aok:

But it said so in your rightwing tory rag, so it must be true. :agree:

[CallumLaidlaw]

Sturgeon is off her head. Just reading some of the comments in news sites, the English are mostly saying please go as we subsidise your free prescriptions, college degrees and care homes - all things they don't get. If we were subsidising England like they do us the Gnat fury would be rightly apoplectic. I don't want the Euro and I don't want to be run or bailed out by the Germans or IMF, Sturgeon. Because that is what will happen. The fools who elect people like Mhairi Black will not tolerate the cuts needed, they are all living in cloud cuckoo land like wee depressed Mhairi on her £80k a year.

So you're basing your information on comments on news sites? brilliant.
You really think if we were such a drain on the British ecomony, they'd be clinging on to us as much as they are?

[Mantis Toboggan]

Another cracker from UnionJackLadd.

You honestly believe that a UK Government (a tory one at that) that governs over 64 million people would use tax payers money from England to subsidize the lives of 5.3 million people living in Scotland, a country that just doesn't vote for them ever? :faf:

Aye, I can see how that would make electoral sense. :aok:

But it said so in your rightwing tory rag, so it must be true. :agree:

Not even in said rag. In the comments section, which of course is the home of reason and fact.

[High-On-Hibs]

So you're basing your information on comments on news sites? brilliant.
You really think if we were such a drain on the British ecomony, they'd be clinging on to us as much as they are?

It's because they love and respect us you know.

[stantonhibby]

Even in a small sub sample like Hibs.net there is proof that Brexit is/was a game changer.



You claim that almost half the electorate are fools whilst you (the clever one) are happy to believe anything printed in the comments section of the Daily Mail.


Yes, no doubt Brexit will have been a factor for some. Equall
y there will be folk who didn't give the EU much thought but based their vote on whether the SNP made a strong enough economic argument to leave.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I see wee Ruth Davidson has gone radge. When you see the Tories in meltdown, you know something good is happening :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Now we know what the question will be.


The question in the new #ScotRef (https://twitter.com/hashtag/ScotRef?src=hash): When England throws itself out of the boat like a block of concrete, do you want your foot tied to it?

[Betty Boop]

She can stick her Referendum where the Sun don't shine.

[DaveF]

[QUOTE=stantonhibby;4977409 Equall
y there will be folk who didn't give the EU much thought but based their vote on whether the SNP made a strong enough economic argument to leave.[/QUOTE]

Which will be absolutely critical given the hammering the SNP took over this the last time and the drop in Oil price between then and now.

[stantonhibby]

Which will be absolutely critical given the hammering the SNP took over this the last time and the drop in Oil price between then and now.

Absolutely

[DaveF]

She can stick her Referendum where the Sun don't shine.

You mean Scotland :-)

[JackLadd]

I see nats are playing the man and not the ball as usual. You have never dealt in facts, only heather brained dreams and castles made of sand / tartan utopias. Look at the raw data of where we do our trade (17% Eu, 68% England), the current deficit of revenue vs expenditure in Scotland (9%, and not including legacy debt that would be added), the oil taxation revenue on current Brent crude price (0%), the 10% unemployment in the Euro zone, and argue on that. Go on and make a case. How long do you think we'd last? How would it be better? Sturgeon will be A okay, not most of you.

[speedy_gonzales]

Every time? How many have I missed, cos I only voted in one.
You are off course correct, my first post on this thread was going to mention that there has only been the one independence referendum but it never got posted because it got a bit ranty :wink:
My point is/was, I'm not sure it's healthy to have the same arguments over and over re a binary question. The question is a simple one but one answer opens the door for it to be asked again, the other slams it shut,,,,for ever! I'm only asking does that sound fair?

[High-On-Hibs]

She can stick her Referendum where the Sun don't shine.

Well it certainly doesn't shine on Scotland in this equal partnership of ours. :rolleyes:

[speedy_gonzales]

We have general elections every 4/5 years. Why not just have one election and keep those in power forever. Why keep asking the question until you get the government you want?
There's a huge difference between an election and a referendum. My point is, is it healthy to have more than one referendum asking the same question?

[allmodcons]

She can stick her Referendum where the Sun don't shine.

So you won't be voting?

[High-On-Hibs]

There's a huge difference between an election and a referendum. My point is, is it healthy to have more than one referendum asking the same question?

Instead of just saying that there's a huge difference. Perhaps you would like to explain what this "huge difference" actually is?

Is it healthy to forever remaining in a "union" where your voice is merely ignored time and time again?

[Smartie]

I see nats are playing the man and not the ball as usual. You have never dealt in facts, only heather brained dreams and castles made of sand / tartan utopias. Look at the raw data of where we do our trade (17% Eu, 68% England), the current deficit of revenue vs expenditure in Scotland (9%, and not including legacy debt that would be added), the oil taxation revenue on current Brent crude price (0%), the 10% unemployment in the Euro zone, and argue on that. Go on and make a case. How long do you think we'd last? How would it be better? Sturgeon will be A okay, not most of you.

You've got the bones of an argument and the start of a meaningful debate just about kicking off here (which would be a very good thing) but the style of your posts makes it very hard to want to engage with you on this.

[makaveli1875]

Instead of just saying that there's a huge difference. Perhaps you would like to explain what this "huge difference" actually is?

Is it healthy to forever remaining in a "union" where your voice is merely ignored time and time again?

our voice is ignored time and again in europe , but still 60% of us voted to remain in that union .

[marinello59]

There's a huge difference between an election and a referendum. My point is, is it healthy to have more than one referendum asking the same question?

I would have preferred a bigger gap between votes and I suspect Nicola Sturgeon does not see the timing of all this as ideal. But with us heading towards a hard Brexit we at least deserve the chance to make a decision on whether we as a country just go along with that or not. The world we are in now seems a different place from where we were in 2014.

[speedy_gonzales]

Do you not feel in the least bit aggrieved that we're at the mercy of Westminster when it comes to 'brexit', whether for it or against? For me, the brexit vote and the subsequent ignorance/arrogance towards any opinion other than that of the hard line tory, makes this a must for the Scottish people. I'm not sure which way I'll vote in indyref2, however I'm glad I've now got a legitimate option and reasoned arguments (in between the rhetoric) to listen to over the next year or so.
Personally I think the we, as in the UK, are at the mercy of the Europeans when it comes to Brexit.

BUT, the UK did vote to leave so the ruling party must grasp that nettle. I was devastated but whilst it's not always fair it's democracy.

[CapitalGreen]

There's a huge difference between an election and a referendum. My point is, is it healthy to have more than one referendum asking the same question?

I'm not sure if it is healthy but I would say it is unhealthy to ignore the will of those who elected you with a mandate to hold a second independence referendum if there was a material change in the political landscape of Scotland.

[High-On-Hibs]

our voice is ignored time and again in europe , but still 60% of us voted to remain in that union .

Scotland doesn't have a voice in Europe, because it doesn't even have a voice at UK level. But regardless of where you stand on the EU, at least an independent Scotland can agree it's own type of relationship with Europe and the rest of the world. Something it will never be able to do as part of the UK. What's good for England isn't necessarily good for us, but we're forever forced to go down their path, regardless of the damage it could do to our own economy and democracy.

[Peevemor]

I see nats are playing the man and not the ball as usual. You have never dealt in facts, only heather brained dreams and castles made of sand / tartan utopias. Look at the raw data of where we do our trade (17% Eu, 68% England), the current deficit of revenue vs expenditure in Scotland (9%, and not including legacy debt that would be added), the oil taxation revenue on current Brent crude price (0%), the 10% unemployment in the Euro zone, and argue on that. Go on and make a case. How long do you think we'd last? How would it be better? Sturgeon will be A okay, not most of you.

How much of that 68% simply passes through England on it's way to Europe?

[Moulin Yarns]

I see nats are playing the man and not the ball as usual. You have never dealt in facts, only heather brained dreams and castles made of sand / tartan utopias. Look at the raw data of where we do our trade (17% Eu, 68% England), the current deficit of revenue vs expenditure in Scotland (9%, and not including legacy debt that would be added), the oil taxation revenue on current Brent crude price (0%), the 10% unemployment in the Euro zone, and argue on that. Go on and make a case. How long do you think we'd last? How would it be better? Sturgeon will be A okay, not most of you.


:saltireflag :troll:

Ok, one point, if the LEAVE people are to be believed, the current trade with the EU by the UK will continue as before, "because they need us" so what is to say the same won't be the case for iScotland and the rUK? They need our tartan, haggis, shortbread and heather and would be daft to rebuild Hadrian's Wall just to be petulant .

[Moulin Yarns]

I see wee Ruth Davidson has gone radge. When you see the Tories in meltdown, you know something good is happening :greengrin

https://www.conservatives.com/-/media/Email/ruthlogo.ashx?h=80&w=352&hash=DD7EBD9E4800AF76D2BFA7D5B6588843A410D3CD&hash=DD7EBD9E4800AF76D2BFA7D5B6588843A410D3CD&la=en
Dear XXXXXXX,

Today Nicola Sturgeon confirmed she intends to call a second referendum on Scottish independence.
Time is short if we are to stop her, so forgive me if I come straight to the point.
I need your help. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=QB3u3FN1LtsJMVNfiIETf% 2b58Kn4zxTeWX7IvYql8Qel72wzuqp7JEoFgF7zccRH2MvURUk ZB%2ftVfq1lEABLZiJOHj6bC%2flxZtDOUAyuMOjTMK59dcNVw qNfC8BkQo%2fG0YQk8dlWZWW5cvPJLs%2bqGfr3oHAt3QDLhQy P2zw20HXB0VodSoDEPzo%2blKN2trY12eD4o6BLI33CKPfw2JM 7NMYnJUrOZaZSsbQMV9xEVd0U%3d)
We know that the SNP has been building up a huge war-chest to fight another referendum.
And we also know Nicola Sturgeon will have no hesitation in putting the full power of the Scottish government behind her campaign to break up Britain. That’s the same government we pay for, and which is meant to be hard at work improving our local schools and hospitals.
So we need to stop this in its tracks now. We need to match her, pound for pound.
Please make a donation today, and you have my personal guarantee that every penny will be spent on opposing Nicola Sturgeon’s new independence referendum drive. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=QB3u3FN1LtsJMVNfiIETf% 2b58Kn4zxTeWX7IvYql8Qel72wzuqp7JEoFgF7zccRH2MvURUk ZB%2ftVfq1lEABLZiJOHj6bC%2flxZtDOUAyuMOjTMK59dcNVw qNfC8BkQo%2fG0YQk8dlWZWW5cvPJLs%2bqGfr3oHAt3QDLhQy P2zw20HXB0VodSoDEPzo%2blKN2trY12eD4o6BLI33CKPfw2JM 7NMYnJUrOZaZSsbQMV9xEVd0U%3d)
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Ruth Davidson
Leader of the Opposition - Scottish Conservatives
PS: You can also help by signing our petition against a second independence referendum. Thousands of people have already signed it, so make sure your voice is heard. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=rZr7tz2lFUIaNmtwjMVezp wRFmL5iXA2pnoyjUJq%2be6kOgWFmZL0t36YUx2FcbjCH4m%2b jPooS2mGUYF2alLNZRAgZdImXDIgAlMr%2fmzqWiKk6z7EOYmr IydmHJKuN3OatEsDmqwDRXSmhGaq%2bjFB7BzMTRZEldG2ZOtZ usDLC9vyso1dvSVdfPpIU6TXLmv0rd9dW54DAOaUVfKxcs1OD8 bG1WD4zoegUriOTfJVyBs%3d)

[Hibernia&Alba]

One of the major considerations which motivated my No vote last time was uncertainty about EU membership. The argument, which was valid, was that only a No vote could guarantee our future EU membership. Well, that argument was taken off the table last June, and the dishonest campaign of the Brexit camp has left a bitter taste. You don't need to be Einstein to have foreseen the potential consequences of a Brexit vote in circumstances where a solid majority of Scots voted remain. I'm angry about the way Brexit was mis-sold; it is further evidence of the different visions of England and Scotland, which seems irreconcilable.

[KWJ]

our voice is ignored time and again in europe , but still 60% of us voted to remain in that union .

UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

Numbers prior to the Brexit vote since 1999.

Just sayin'.

[Hibernia&Alba]

https://www.conservatives.com/-/media/Email/ruthlogo.ashx?h=80&w=352&hash=DD7EBD9E4800AF76D2BFA7D5B6588843A410D3CD&hash=DD7EBD9E4800AF76D2BFA7D5B6588843A410D3CD&la=en
Dear XXXXXXX,

Today Nicola Sturgeon confirmed she intends to call a second referendum on Scottish independence.
Time is short if we are to stop her, so forgive me if I come straight to the point.
I need your help. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=QB3u3FN1LtsJMVNfiIETf% 2b58Kn4zxTeWX7IvYql8Qel72wzuqp7JEoFgF7zccRH2MvURUk ZB%2ftVfq1lEABLZiJOHj6bC%2flxZtDOUAyuMOjTMK59dcNVw qNfC8BkQo%2fG0YQk8dlWZWW5cvPJLs%2bqGfr3oHAt3QDLhQy P2zw20HXB0VodSoDEPzo%2blKN2trY12eD4o6BLI33CKPfw2JM 7NMYnJUrOZaZSsbQMV9xEVd0U%3d)
We know that the SNP has been building up a huge war-chest to fight another referendum.
And we also know Nicola Sturgeon will have no hesitation in putting the full power of the Scottish government behind her campaign to break up Britain. That’s the same government we pay for, and which is meant to be hard at work improving our local schools and hospitals.
So we need to stop this in its tracks now. We need to match her, pound for pound.
Please make a donation today, and you have my personal guarantee that every penny will be spent on opposing Nicola Sturgeon’s new independence referendum drive. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=QB3u3FN1LtsJMVNfiIETf% 2b58Kn4zxTeWX7IvYql8Qel72wzuqp7JEoFgF7zccRH2MvURUk ZB%2ftVfq1lEABLZiJOHj6bC%2flxZtDOUAyuMOjTMK59dcNVw qNfC8BkQo%2fG0YQk8dlWZWW5cvPJLs%2bqGfr3oHAt3QDLhQy P2zw20HXB0VodSoDEPzo%2blKN2trY12eD4o6BLI33CKPfw2JM 7NMYnJUrOZaZSsbQMV9xEVd0U%3d)
Thank you for your support.
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Ruth Davidson
Leader of the Opposition - Scottish Conservatives
PS: You can also help by signing our petition against a second independence referendum. Thousands of people have already signed it, so make sure your voice is heard. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=rZr7tz2lFUIaNmtwjMVezp wRFmL5iXA2pnoyjUJq%2be6kOgWFmZL0t36YUx2FcbjCH4m%2b jPooS2mGUYF2alLNZRAgZdImXDIgAlMr%2fmzqWiKk6z7EOYmr IydmHJKuN3OatEsDmqwDRXSmhGaq%2bjFB7BzMTRZEldG2ZOtZ usDLC9vyso1dvSVdfPpIU6TXLmv0rd9dW54DAOaUVfKxcs1OD8 bG1WD4zoegUriOTfJVyBs%3d)



Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Bristolhibby]

UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

Numbers prior to the Brexit vote since 1999.

Just sayin'.

That's a cracking stat. Just wished it was used more last year.

TBH go or stay in the EU for an iScotland, should be the choice of an iScotland. At the moment that, and every other policy decision is being decided by a Right wing Westminster Government.

J

[JackLadd]

You've got the bones of an argument and the start of a meaningful debate just about kicking off here (which would be a very good thing) but the style of your posts makes it very hard to want to engage with you on this.


The truth is sometimes hard to swallow, there's no nice way of putting it. I approach the union from a purely pragmatic and non emotionally invested view: we benefit from it immensely and would suffer real and lasting economic hardship if we broke away, something the good people of Renfrewshire South are blissfully unaware.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I wonder how much people in Scotland really care about the EU. I suspect a decent amount of No voters then voted Remain because they didn't want another referendum and not because they had a strong opinion on the EU. Maybe if Indy2 wasn't on the agenda, the EU result in Scotland would have been quite different? Thoughts?

[speedy_gonzales]

Instead of just saying that there's a huge difference. Perhaps you would like to explain what this "huge difference" actually is?

Is it healthy to forever remaining in a "union" where your voice is merely ignored time and time again?

I do hope you're not at the wind-up as that's poor form.
A referendum is a single issue question with usually a binary option offered to the electorate. An election doesn't have a question at it's core but usually a manifesto and the options are endless, you elect your representative who answers the questions on your behalf through parliamentary voting.

Your point re ignored voice, well that's your opinion, I can't comment on that but would say you're not alone.

[SHODAN]

After the 2014 referendum I was quite happy to let the issue settle despite the result (voted Yes). The EU vote changed that for me - I've always been more pro-EU than pro-independence and I am genuinely concerned and frightened by the growing rise of ethnic nationalism in Europe and worldwide. There is absolutely no way I want to be part of an isolationist UK to the point where I've been seriously considering moving abroad.

The Holyrood result and the EU result gave Sturgeon a mandate for a second referendum - if we vote No this time then that really will be the issue done for a generation. We're by no means definitely going to thrive as an independent nation if we vote Yes this time, but IMO it's a decision between "might not be ****" (Yes) and "definitely will be ****" (No).

I understand a want for stability if you're a relatively secure homeowner with a stable income and good pension prospects, but for "generation rent" and the 100k EU nationals resident in Scotland (which pretty much sums up me and my partner) we'll be ****ed if nothing changes.

[Newry Hibs]

Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that we voted to leave the EU as a "United" Kingdom. We quite evidently aren't united. Scotland doesn't get what it wants from this "united" kingdom 99% of the time, so why keep lying to yourselves?

Why are you so desperate to cling on to something that quite clearly isn't in the democratic interests of our nation? I just don't get it. :confused:

Maybe there should be a referendum on this .. Oh wait, there was.

[High-On-Hibs]

The truth is sometimes hard to swallow, there's no nice way of putting it. I approach the union from a purely pragmatic and non emotionally invested view: we benefit from it immensely and would suffer real and lasting economic hardship if we broke away, something the good people of Renfrewshire South are blissfully unaware.

You can have zero emotional investment in a particular view and still be completely wrong. :aok:

[Smartie]

The truth is sometimes hard to swallow, there's no nice way of putting it. I approach the union from a purely pragmatic and non emotionally invested view: we benefit from it immensely and would suffer real and lasting economic hardship if we broke away, something the good people of Renfrewshire South are blissfully unaware.

No, but I think the jibes regarding heather, hooch and kola cubes that you have come out with over the past few days are an unnecessarily "not nice" way of putting it.

There are certainly benefits that come from being part of the Union and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion that those benefits outweigh the costs, all the better that it is pragmatic and unemotional.

Many people see it a different way. There are parts of Renfrewshire that are far from pleasant and there will be a great number of people there who don't see many of the benefits of the Union (or who won't think they do anyway) and will be only too happy to trade what little they've got for the chance of something better.

[High-On-Hibs]

I do hope you're not at the wind-up as that's poor form.
A referendum is a single issue question with usually a binary option offered to the electorate. An election doesn't have a question at it's core but usually a manifesto and the options are endless, you elect your representative who answers the questions on your behalf through parliamentary voting.

Your point re ignored voice, well that's your opinion, I can't comment on that but would say you're not alone.

No, i'm not winding you up.

Manifestos can be provided during referendums as well. It's not mandatory, but giving a detailed outline over a series of different policies isn't uncommon, even during a referendum.

The point (i think) you seem to be making is that it's ok for elections to be held regularly, but not referendums. But you haven't given any reason as to why you think this should be the case.

You can't comment on it, or you won't comment on it?

[CapitalGreen]

I wonder how much people in Scotland really care about the EU. I suspect a decent amount of No voters then voted Remain because they didn't want another referendum and not because they had a strong opinion on the EU. Maybe if Indy2 wasn't on the agenda, the EU result in Scotland would have been quite different? Thoughts?

My thoughts are that this viewpoint is quite disrespectful to the Scottish electorate. I'd suggest people in Scotland who voted remain "care about the EU" just as much as anyone else who voted remain across the rest of the UK.

[Newry Hibs]

After the 2014 referendum I was quite happy to let the issue settle despite the result (voted Yes). The EU vote changed that for me - I've always been more pro-EU than pro-independence and I am genuinely concerned and frightened by the growing rise of ethnic nationalism in Europe and worldwide. There is absolutely no way I want to be part of an isolationist UK to the point where I've been seriously considering moving abroad.

The Holyrood result and the EU result gave Sturgeon a mandate for a second referendum - if we vote No this time then that really will be the issue done for a generation. We're by no means definitely going to thrive as an independent nation if we vote Yes this time, but IMO it's a decision between "might not be ****" (Yes) and "definitely will be ****" (No).

I understand a want for stability if you're a relatively secure homeowner with a stable income and good pension prospects, but for "generation rent" and the 100k EU nationals resident in Scotland (which pretty much sums up me and my partner) we'll be ****ed if nothing changes.
Until the next 'game changer'. Who decides what can kick off a referendum?

[CapitalGreen]

Until the next 'game changer'. Who decides what can kick off a referendum?

The electorate by voting in parties that put the intention to hold another referendum in their manifesto.

[johnbc70]

So by the time of Indyref2 will I know if I vote yes that I am voting for Scotland to be part of the EU, no if and buts and maybes but a signed off guarantee that Scotland will join the EU, or will I be voting for a 'we hope so, we think so' type scenario.

Will we know what a Yes or No vote will mean for our EU membership with complete certainty?

[High-On-Hibs]

Until the next 'game changer'. Who decides what can kick off a referendum?

Hmm, I don't know..... perhaps an electorate voting in a party with it in their manifesto pledge?

[Bristolhibby]

Until the next 'game changer'. Who decides what can kick off a referendum?

A democratically elected Scottish Government.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Happy Commonwealth Day :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

So by the time of Indyref2 will I know if I vote yes that I am voting for Scotland to be part of the EU, no if and buts and maybes but a signed off guarantee that Scotland will join the EU, or will I be voting for a 'we hope so, we think so' type scenario.

Will we know what a Yes or No vote will mean for our EU membership with complete certainty?

Things will become clearer as time goes on, however, nothing will ever be a 100% solid guarantee regardless of what side of this you are on. That's just the nature of politics.

[makaveli1875]

So by the time of Indyref2 will I know if I vote yes that I am voting for Scotland to be part of the EU, no if and buts and maybes but a signed off guarantee that Scotland will join the EU, or will I be voting for a 'we hope so, we think so' type scenario.

Will we know what a Yes or No vote will mean for our EU membership with complete certainty?

wee pablo from spain and big Gunther from germany say we will and thats good enough for most folk on here :greengrin

[Smartie]

I wonder how much people in Scotland really care about the EU. I suspect a decent amount of No voters then voted Remain because they didn't want another referendum and not because they had a strong opinion on the EU. Maybe if Indy2 wasn't on the agenda, the EU result in Scotland would have been quite different? Thoughts?

I think that this is the crux of the matter.

I nearly didn't bother going to vote in the EU referendum. I forgot, I hadn't given it a great deal of thought and went along with about half an hour to cast my vote. I voted to remain but I must admit that I was probably 70/30 at most. In voting remain I was far from giving a ringing endorsement of the recent record of the EU, in fact it was anything but. But it was vote for a bigger picture that I believe in, and I'd rather we tried to change from within that from outside.

I have a problem with the Euro. I know that the financial crash mainly came about because of the sub-prime lending situation particularly in the USA, but I think the single European currency has a lot to answer for. I don't like that countries in the Eu have fiscal union but not political union - in my opinion it cannot work. I didn't like the SNP plan to use the pound last Indyref and I wouldn't like it now (nor do I like the Euro). The problems in the Euro zone have come about since the introduction of the Euro.

I think that the EU is a fantastic idea and the fact that relative peace has been kept over the past 50 years in a historically volatile part of the world has been a great achievement and is in many ways thanks to the EU.

I do however think that change has been too rapid, and I don't think enough respect is paid towards our differences. Different groups of people sometimes have different outlooks and values and I don't think the EU pays enough respect to that. German values should not be being inflicted on the Greeks etc etc. I would like the pace of change to be slower and I think those who are frustrated with the EU have been most uncomfortable about the rate of change.


I believe strongly that Scotland should be Independent from the UK. I believe that much more strongly than I do that we have the right to hold another referendum, I respected the result the last time and accepted that the likes of being taken out of the EU, having endless Conservative governments etc etc were the prices we had to pay for not winning the argument in 2014. I'm not 100% convinced that enough has materially changed since 2014 to justify another referendum but I'll go with it anyway.

What will be interesting will be for those who do feel passionately about Europe and what may have happened to their opinions, particularly the LibDems. They're generally a very pro-European lot and may find more that they like in a Yes campaign than the hard Brexit one. There may be Labour politicians who might have a political future if they join the Yes side, whereas they may have no future whatsoever if they stay put.

We live in interesting times.

[High-On-Hibs]

wee pablo from spain and big Gunther from germany say we will and thats good enough for most folk on here :greengrin

But wasn't it "wee pablo from spain" who was going to stand in our way and stop us gaining entry? :dunno:

[Bristolhibby]

But wasn't it "wee pablo from spain" who was going to stand in our way and stop us gaining entry? :dunno:

And wee Pablo will be very keen to fish in Scottish waters.

J

[allmodcons]

I see nats are playing the man and not the ball as usual. You have never dealt in facts, only heather brained dreams and castles made of sand / tartan utopias. Look at the raw data of where we do our trade (17% Eu, 68% England), the current deficit of revenue vs expenditure in Scotland (9%, and not including legacy debt that would be added), the oil taxation revenue on current Brent crude price (0%), the 10% unemployment in the Euro zone, and argue on that. Go on and make a case. How long do you think we'd last? How would it be better? Sturgeon will be A okay, not most of you.

Who is suggesting that we cease trading with England? You are aware that they sell more to us than we do to them?

The current deficit is an issue, but nobody should take what GERS says as gospel. This was a mistake made by the SNP at the last referendum. One I hope they won't make again. IMO you can't effectively measure the extent to which England economically supports Scotland (or vice versa) when there are not separate English and Scottish economies.

As for oil revenues, it's amusing how you concentrate on a single bad year. Check out the peaks and troughs of the last 30 years. Alistair Darling himself stated back in 2008 that "Scotland's oil revenues have been underwriting the UK's failure to balance the books for decades".

One of my favourite quotes comes from Derek Bateman and truly sums up your position - "A country denied the ability to run its own economy is blamed for being bankrupt by the authority which exercises those macro-economic powers over it. The British Treasury pulls our wings off and then laughs when we can't fly".

As for posters playing the man, you have nobody to blame but yourself for that.

[makaveli1875]

But wasn't it "wee pablo from spain" who was going to stand in our way and stop us gaining entry? :dunno:

it was big Fernando that said that i think

[steakbake]

But wasn't it "wee pablo from spain" who was going to stand in our way and stop us gaining entry? :dunno:

Quite. One single word from any passing Spanish politician will be seized upon by both sides to reinforce their belief.

I'll be honest, I'd rather be a country looking to secure access to the single market and possibly the EU itself, than definitely on an island which is drifting away from both.

Last time was a decision to make but I suspect this time, minds will be very concentrated. The stakes are even higher now.

[Newry Hibs]

A democratically elected Scottish Government.

J

So what's the question this time? Yes / No to UK or Yes / No to EU

[PeeJay]

So by the time of Indyref2 will I know if I vote yes that I am voting for Scotland to be part of the EU, no if and buts and maybes but a signed off guarantee that Scotland will join the EU, or will I be voting for a 'we hope so, we think so' type scenario.

Will we know what a Yes or No vote will mean for our EU membership with complete certainty?

No - and it should be irrelevant anyway - Scottish "independence" is something that should be voted for or against, on its own merits only, not on whether an independent Scotland can be a member of the EU. There are no guarantees regarding the EU. With upcoming elections in The Netherlands, France and Germany - if the worse comes to the worst - the EU landscape may change beyond recognition, or the EU could break up - what will an "independent" Scotland then do - have another referendum?

[Moulin Yarns]

And wee Pablo will be very keen to fish in Scottish waters.

J

Whether we remain part of the EU or not that is unlikely to change, it will be part of the 'DEAL' for Brexit.

[Bristolhibby]

So what's the question this time? Yes / No to UK or Yes / No to EU

Yes / No to Independence.

Then whatever Independent Scotlands elected Government that forms a majority can decide what happens in Scotland. That's the rub for me.

Decisions made by the Scottish Population to the benefit of the Scottish people.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

I see nats are playing the man and not the ball as usual. You have never dealt in facts, only heather brained dreams and castles made of sand / tartan utopias. Look at the raw data of where we do our trade (17% Eu, 68% England), the current deficit of revenue vs expenditure in Scotland (9%, and not including legacy debt that would be added), the oil taxation revenue on current Brent crude price (0%), the 10% unemployment in the Euro zone, and argue on that. Go on and make a case. How long do you think we'd last? How would it be better? Sturgeon will be A okay, not most of you.

Ok, I will attempt to look beyond your childish, arrogant, insulting condescension and blatant ignorance and try and respond.

1. Where in your "raw data" are you accounting for post-Brexit relocation of business to an iScotland in the EU*? And that's short term, your long term analysis of inward investment to Scotland in the scenarios of part of a hard Brexit UK and an independent country within the single market will also be appreciated.

* btw, don't take my word for this, here's anti-Scottish independence Welsh Labour MP, Geraint Davies, "But would you accept, given what's happened, in the event that Scotland did become independent and part of the EU, trading within the EU so it wouldn't face any tariffs, that would provoke a lot of industries from England and Wales, sadly, to simply migrate to Scotland, up the road. It would be a disaster for England and Wales if Scotland were to go and take all this industry to work within the EU."

Let's say for example that tariffs on trade with England act as a 5% brake on cross-border trade but our favourable position in the single market boosts EU trade by a quarter. (1.25 * .17) + (0.68 * 0.95) + 0.15 = 1.01 (RoW unchanged). Now obviously I've just plucked those numbers out of thin air but I'm sure a super clever-clogs like yourself can come up with a bang on point analysis.

2. Scotland does not have a deficit in the traditional sense as it does not borrow anything (it also only sets rates of a very limited part the tax powers applied here). However, it is true that the gap between taxes raised in Scotland and current expenditure by the Scottish and UK governments is not a position anyone should want to be in (so why do you want to stay in it?) btw, "Legacy debt" as in a population share of UK debt repayments *is* included in GERS (and accuracy is always helpful). Any negotiation of iScotland's commitment to support historical debt accrued by the UK would be influenced by our population share of all UK assets. These are disproportionately outside Scotland so would see a reduction in our favour.

3. The unemployment rate in the Eurozone is irrelevant and I don't even know what that's doing there but I suppose it's marginally preferable to tedious Braveheart and/or Wee Jimmie Krankie jokes :rolleyes:

4. How do you propose to tackle Scotland's demographic challenges as a region in a country where the governing party is hellbent on reducing immigration as one of its key priorities?

5. What's your strategy for tackling Scotland's "deficit" or would you rather keep us "too poor" so we shut up and eat our cereal?

[Bristolhibby]

Whether we remain part of the EU or not that is unlikely to change, it will be part of the 'DEAL' for Brexit.

Unless the Scottish population decides They don't like the look of the deal and believe an Infependent Scotland can get a better deal, perhaps as a member of the EU, perhaps not. That would be for future iScottish Governments to decide, not a perpetual Conservative Westminster.

J

[johnbc70]

No - and it should be irrelevant anyway - Scottish "independence" is something that should be voted for or against, on its own merits only, not on whether an independent Scotland can be a member of the EU. There are no guarantees regarding the EU. With upcoming elections in The Netherlands, France and Germany - if the worse comes to the worst - the EU landscape may change beyond recognition, or the EU could break up - what will an "independent" Scotland then do - have another referendum?

Irrelevant? Is that not why we are having Indyref2 in the first place?

[speedy_gonzales]

The point (i think) you seem to be making is that it's ok for elections to be held regularly, but not referendums. But you haven't given any reason as to why you think this should be the case.

You can't comment on it, or you won't comment on it?

The point I'm woefully trying to make is elections are not referendums.
Referendums should be used for important decisions or legislation where there is a binary answer that affect the whole state, but I wouldn't want them for every decision otherwise why bother having elections, we'll just run the country with perpetual referendums.
Where we do have a referendum, I don't think it's right to have another referendum on the same topic so soon. I'm well aware there's been material changes regarding Europe but you can't keep asking the same question until you get the right answer, that to me is badgering not democracy.

[Peevemor]

The point I'm woefully trying to make is elections are not referendums.
Referendums should be used for important decisions or legislation where there is a binary answer that affect the whole state, but I wouldn't want them for every decision otherwise why bother having elections, we'll just run the country with perpetual referendums.
Where we do have a referendum, I don't think it's right to have another referendum on the same topic so soon. I'm well aware there's been material changes regarding Europe but you can't keep asking the same question until you get the right answer, that to me is badgering not democracy.

But because there has been a material change, it isn't the same question.

[Slavers]

I think the timing of this strengthens the EU hand in Brexit negotiations but I think this may have been the SNP plan.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.conservatives.com/-/media/Email/ruthlogo.ashx?h=80&w=352&hash=DD7EBD9E4800AF76D2BFA7D5B6588843A410D3CD&hash=DD7EBD9E4800AF76D2BFA7D5B6588843A410D3CD&la=en
Dear XXXXXXX,

Today Nicola Sturgeon confirmed she intends to call a second referendum on Scottish independence.
Time is short if we are to stop her, so forgive me if I come straight to the point.
I need your help. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=QB3u3FN1LtsJMVNfiIETf% 2b58Kn4zxTeWX7IvYql8Qel72wzuqp7JEoFgF7zccRH2MvURUk ZB%2ftVfq1lEABLZiJOHj6bC%2flxZtDOUAyuMOjTMK59dcNVw qNfC8BkQo%2fG0YQk8dlWZWW5cvPJLs%2bqGfr3oHAt3QDLhQy P2zw20HXB0VodSoDEPzo%2blKN2trY12eD4o6BLI33CKPfw2JM 7NMYnJUrOZaZSsbQMV9xEVd0U%3d)
We know that the SNP has been building up a huge war-chest to fight another referendum.
And we also know Nicola Sturgeon will have no hesitation in putting the full power of the Scottish government behind her campaign to break up Britain. That’s the same government we pay for, and which is meant to be hard at work improving our local schools and hospitals.
So we need to stop this in its tracks now. We need to match her, pound for pound.
Please make a donation today, and you have my personal guarantee that every penny will be spent on opposing Nicola Sturgeon’s new independence referendum drive. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=QB3u3FN1LtsJMVNfiIETf% 2b58Kn4zxTeWX7IvYql8Qel72wzuqp7JEoFgF7zccRH2MvURUk ZB%2ftVfq1lEABLZiJOHj6bC%2flxZtDOUAyuMOjTMK59dcNVw qNfC8BkQo%2fG0YQk8dlWZWW5cvPJLs%2bqGfr3oHAt3QDLhQy P2zw20HXB0VodSoDEPzo%2blKN2trY12eD4o6BLI33CKPfw2JM 7NMYnJUrOZaZSsbQMV9xEVd0U%3d)
Thank you for your support.
https://www.conservatives.com/-/media/Email/Signatures/ruthsig.ashx?h=72&w=300&hash=23E1498B192186124150433BB65929EDA13B77F1&hash=23E1498B192186124150433BB65929EDA13B77F1&la=en
Ruth Davidson
Leader of the Opposition - Scottish Conservatives
PS: You can also help by signing our petition against a second independence referendum. Thousands of people have already signed it, so make sure your voice is heard. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=rZr7tz2lFUIaNmtwjMVezp wRFmL5iXA2pnoyjUJq%2be6kOgWFmZL0t36YUx2FcbjCH4m%2b jPooS2mGUYF2alLNZRAgZdImXDIgAlMr%2fmzqWiKk6z7EOYmr IydmHJKuN3OatEsDmqwDRXSmhGaq%2bjFB7BzMTRZEldG2ZOtZ usDLC9vyso1dvSVdfPpIU6TXLmv0rd9dW54DAOaUVfKxcs1OD8 bG1WD4zoegUriOTfJVyBs%3d)


Have you been hacking JK Rowling's email? :greengrin

[The Tubs]

I think that this is the crux of the matter.

I nearly didn't bother going to vote in the EU referendum. I forgot, I hadn't given it a great deal of thought and went along with about half an hour to cast my vote. I voted to remain but I must admit that I was probably 70/30 at most. In voting remain I was far from giving a ringing endorsement of the recent record of the EU, in fact it was anything but. But it was vote for a bigger picture that I believe in, and I'd rather we tried to change from within that from outside.

I have a problem with the Euro. I know that the financial crash mainly came about because of the sub-prime lending situation particularly in the USA, but I think the single European currency has a lot to answer for. I don't like that countries in the Eu have fiscal union but not political union - in my opinion it cannot work. I didn't like the SNP plan to use the pound last Indyref and I wouldn't like it now (nor do I like the Euro). The problems in the Euro zone have come about since the introduction of the Euro.

I think that the EU is a fantastic idea and the fact that relative peace has been kept over the past 50 years in a historically volatile part of the world has been a great achievement and is in many ways thanks to the EU.

I do however think that change has been too rapid, and I don't think enough respect is paid towards our differences. Different groups of people sometimes have different outlooks and values and I don't think the EU pays enough respect to that. German values should not be being inflicted on the Greeks etc etc. I would like the pace of change to be slower and I think those who are frustrated with the EU have been most uncomfortable about the rate of change.


I believe strongly that Scotland should be Independent from the UK. I believe that much more strongly than I do that we have the right to hold another referendum, I respected the result the last time and accepted that the likes of being taken out of the EU, having endless Conservative governments etc etc were the prices we had to pay for not winning the argument in 2014. I'm not 100% convinced that enough has materially changed since 2014 to justify another referendum but I'll go with it anyway.

What will be interesting will be for those who do feel passionately about Europe and what may have happened to their opinions, particularly the LibDems. They're generally a very pro-European lot and may find more that they like in a Yes campaign than the hard Brexit one. There may be Labour politicians who might have a political future if they join the Yes side, whereas they may have no future whatsoever if they stay put.

We live in interesting times.

I think one of the problems of the euro is that it's a monetary union without being a fiscal one.

It it is no way certain that we'll adopt the euro on independence. A Scottish quid in efta could be a good solution, until the eu sorts out it's democratic/economic/political problems. It's a pity that the eu referendum has forced us to rush independence as we haven't had a good enough debate around these issues.

efta might put us in a good position to take advantage of business and talent running from the UK. Though it would make Edinburgh even pricier and would need intervention to stop it turning into London.

[High-On-Hibs]

The point I'm woefully trying to make is elections are not referendums.
Referendums should be used for important decisions or legislation where there is a binary answer that affect the whole state, but I wouldn't want them for every decision otherwise why bother having elections, we'll just run the country with perpetual referendums.
Where we do have a referendum, I don't think it's right to have another referendum on the same topic so soon. I'm well aware there's been material changes regarding Europe but you can't keep asking the same question until you get the right answer, that to me is badgering not democracy.

Ok then. Scotland had an election, voted overwhelmingly for the Scottish National Party. So going by your understanding of how things should be done, Scotland should just skip the referendum and go straight to independence. After all, we've elected a party that supports the notion of independence.

[ronaldo7]

After the 2014 referendum I was quite happy to let the issue settle despite the result (voted Yes). The EU vote changed that for me - I've always been more pro-EU than pro-independence and I am genuinely concerned and frightened by the growing rise of ethnic nationalism in Europe and worldwide. There is absolutely no way I want to be part of an isolationist UK to the point where I've been seriously considering moving abroad.

The Holyrood result and the EU result gave Sturgeon a mandate for a second referendum - if we vote No this time then that really will be the issue done for a generation. We're by no means definitely going to thrive as an independent nation if we vote Yes this time, but IMO it's a decision between "might not be ****" (Yes) and "definitely will be ****" (No).

I understand a want for stability if you're a relatively secure homeowner with a stable income and good pension prospects, but for "generation rent" and the 100k EU nationals resident in Scotland (which pretty much sums up me and my partner) we'll be ****ed if nothing changes.

I'm one of those stable and relatively secure homeowner types. Just after June 23rd last year, all I could think of was the EU workers who'd made their home in Scotland, and how they were feeling. Hopefully, they'll be feeling a bit better after today's announcement by our First Minister.:aok:

[PeeJay]

Irrelevant? Is that not why we are having Indyref2 in the first place?

Seems to me that Sturgeon and her SNP are simply using the EU as the latest wedge to drive apart the UK while pushing for yet another referendum: it was oil before now it is the EU. It's independence at any price, are you prepared to pay it?

[bigwheel]

Seems to me that Sturgeon and her SNP are simply using the EU as the latest wedge to drive apart the UK while pushing for yet another referendum: it was oil before now it is the EU. It's independence at any price, are you prepared to pay it?



Come on now...regardless of your politics, surely you would agree the landscape in Scotland has completely changed a) without Scotland's choosing and b) from that which was presented at the first indyref.

[High-On-Hibs]

Seems to me that Sturgeon and her SNP are simply using the EU as the latest wedge to drive apart the UK while pushing for yet another referendum: it was oil before now it is the EU. It's independence at any price, are you prepared to pay it?


The EU is pretty big "wedge" to be fair.

What's the price of remaining in the UK and cutting off all free market trade with the EU, due to a hard brexit that Scotland didn't vote for?

[Peevemor]

Seems to me that Sturgeon and her SNP are simply using the EU as the latest wedge to drive apart the UK while pushing for yet another referendum: it was oil before now it is the EU. It's independence at any price, are you prepared to pay it?


The outlook/mindest of the majority in Scotland is currently the opposite of that in England. That's what is driving the UK apart and that is why SNP support in Scotland far outweighs that of their London controlled counterparts.

[snooky]

May says SNP have tunnel vision.
Can't have anything else if you're constantly kept in one.

[steakbake]

Ok then. Scotland had an election, voted overwhelmingly for the Scottish National Party. So going by your understanding of how things should be done, Scotland should just skip the referendum and go straight to independence. After all, we've elected a party that supports the notion of independence.

Thatcher did once say that if Scotland returned a majority of MPs in favour of independence, then that is when it should be declared.

Of course, not in her wildest dreams could she imagine the situation where that would be the case, so it is a moot point.

[ronaldo7]

UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

Numbers prior to the Brexit vote since 1999.

Just sayin'.

You wouldn't see those numbers on the side of a bus would you.:greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

Thatcher did once say that if Scotland returned a majority of MPs in favour of independence, then that is when it should be declared.

Of course, not in her wildest dreams could she imagine the situation where that would be the case, so it is a moot point.

She was a self confessed English nationalist who did her absolute best to drive the biggest wedge between Scotland and the rest of the UK. She caused far more damage between England/Scotland relations than the SNP ever could.

[Smartie]

Come on now...regardless of your politics, surely you would agree the landscape in Scotland has completely changed a) without Scotland's choosing and b) from that which was presented at the first indyref.

I'm in favour of independence but I don't think this is as cut and dried as you make out. I favour independence quite a lot more than I think we have the right to hold another referendum.

Scotland made it's decision in 2014 - therefore it was left at the mercy of certain things happening, such as being taken out of the EU against our will. That's what a "no' vote meant and you were either fine with that or not. I wasn't fine with it, so I voted "yes" in spite of the risks that went with it.

It really is open to debate whether or not the landscape has completely changed. What we've had happen have been a series of events (vote on intervention in Syria, Brexit, more Tory government and austerity) that were inevitable as a result of the "no" vote. I'm not convinced that as many people are bothered about that as should be but there you go.

40 years might have gone by without much changing, as it happened 2 and a bit years went by with a great deal happening. The only way that we will find out if enough has materially changed will be the the vote goes ahead.

[bigwheel]

I'm in favour of independence but I don't think this is as cut and dried as you make out. I favour independence quite a lot more than I think we have the right to hold another referendum.

Scotland made it's decision in 2014 - therefore it was left at the mercy of certain things happening, such as being taken out of the EU against our will. That's what a "no' vote meant and you were either fine with that or not. I wasn't fine with it, so I voted "yes" in spite of the risks that went with it.

It really is open to debate whether or not the landscape has completely changed. What we've had happen have been a series of events (vote on intervention in Syria, Brexit, more Tory government and austerity) that were inevitable as a result of the "no" vote. I'm not convinced that as many people are bothered about that as should be but there you go.

40 years might have gone by without much changing, as it happened 2 and a bit years went by with a great deal happening. The only way that we will find out if enough has materially changed will be the the vote goes ahead.


There is no doubt the Scottish Government have the right to hold another referendum... they campaigned on exactly this scenario

What is for certain is that things will never be the same again, and whichever way we go forward, it will events of unprecedented nature. People, in my view, should have the right to choose the path for Scotland. Then we have to get behind it, regardless of outcome.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm in favour of independence but I don't think this is as cut and dried as you make out. I favour independence quite a lot more than I think we have the right to hold another referendum.

Scotland made it's decision in 2014 - therefore it was left at the mercy of certain things happening, such as being taken out of the EU against our will. That's what a "no' vote meant and you were either fine with that or not. I wasn't fine with it, so I voted "yes" in spite of the risks that went with it.

It really is open to debate whether or not the landscape has completely changed. What we've had happen have been a series of events (vote on intervention in Syria, Brexit, more Tory government and austerity) that were inevitable as a result of the "no" vote. I'm not convinced that as many people are bothered about that as should be but there you go.

40 years might have gone by without much changing, as it happened 2 and a bit years went by with a great deal happening. The only way that we will find out if enough has materially changed will be the the vote goes ahead.

The notion of the moral right to hold another referendum is a bit vague and folk could argue that round the houses forever. However, practically the Scottish government has the right to hold a referendum if it was in proposed in their manifesto and they can win a vote in the Scottish Parliament. If folk don't like that then they'll have to vote in a different government.

[ronaldo7]

I'm in favour of independence but I don't think this is as cut and dried as you make out. I favour independence quite a lot more than I think we have the right to hold another referendum.

Scotland made it's decision in 2014 - therefore it was left at the mercy of certain things happening, such as being taken out of the EU against our will. That's what a "no' vote meant and you were either fine with that or not. I wasn't fine with it, so I voted "yes" in spite of the risks that went with it.

It really is open to debate whether or not the landscape has completely changed. What we've had happen have been a series of events (vote on intervention in Syria, Brexit, more Tory government and austerity) that were inevitable as a result of the "no" vote. I'm not convinced that as many people are bothered about that as should be but there you go.

40 years might have gone by without much changing, as it happened 2 and a bit years went by with a great deal happening. The only way that we will find out if enough has materially changed will be the the vote goes ahead.

We had a General Election in 2015, and we didn't know who would be elected to the UK parliament. Labour never had a EU referendum in their manifesto, so we couldn't know we'd actually get a Eu ref.

[xyz23jc]

You wouldn't see those numbers on the side of a bus would you.:greengrin

:thumbsup::agree::greengrin:top marks

[marinello59]

We had a General Election in 2015, and we didn't know who would be elected to the UK parliament. Labour never had a EU referendum in their manifesto, so we couldn't know we'd actually get a Eu ref.

And let's not forget if we had had another coalition as expected it's also very doubtful that an EU referundum would have been held.

[ronaldo7]

And let's not forget if we had had another coalition as expected it's also very doubtful that an EU referundum would have been held.

:agree:

[High-On-Hibs]

And let's not forget if we had had another coalition as expected it's also very doubtful that an EU referundum would have been held.

As soon as the Tory narrative turned to jocks having a meaningful say over UK matters, you knew that was never going to be the case.

[The Harp Awakes]

Whilst I can understand Unionists being unhappy about the prospect of indyref2, I think those who are saying there is no mandate for it, are clearly deluding themselves.

Ruth Davidson's outburst today to NS calling indyref 2 is comical. It's her Tory party by taking the UK out of the EU, that has created the situation we presently find oursleves in, and provided the mandate for the Scottish Government to hold another independence referendum.

Theresa May would be committing political suicide by blocking a referendum and she knows it.

The outcome of indyref2 will not be determined by the entrenched views of rabid Unionists and Nationalists. It will be the 10/15% of the Scottish electorate who are undecided, or who may change their vote from No to Yes due to Brexit. I can't see there being much movement from Yes to No. The European nationals presently living in Scotland may have a big say in the outcome, as you can see them en masse voting Yes to independence this time around, as they will fear they will be unwelcome in Scotland and the UK, post Brexit.

[ronaldo7]

It looks like the Irish are getting in on the act now, with some asking for a border poll during the Brexit process. The more the merrier.:wink:

[G B Young]

No purpose? Other than to settle the issue one way or another?

The issue has been settled, supposedly for a generation, but it's been dragged centre stage again under a Brexit smokescreen. Tiresome and unnecessary.

[hibs0666]

Two more years of divisive ****** to come. Canny wait.

[marinello59]

The issue has been settled, supposedly for a generation, but it's been dragged centre stage again under a Brexit smokescreen. Tiresome and unnecessary.

It's hardly a smokescreen. The SNP stated clearly in their manifesto that Brexit would trigger another referundum. To a certain extent they have been pushed in to this far sooner than they would have wanted, not many people thought Brexit would become a reality.
If you find it so tiresome, don't vote. :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

The issue has been settled, supposedly for a generation, but it's been dragged centre stage again under a Brexit smokescreen. Tiresome and unnecessary.

It's "tiresome" and "unncessary", because you don't agree with it. It doesn't suit your own agenda.

Tough. :na na:

[JackLadd]

The issue has been settled, supposedly for a generation, but it's been dragged centre stage again under a Brexit smokescreen. Tiresome and unnecessary.



A once in a generation vote said Salmond and Nip in 2014, and there was no aye buts, mibbe ifs, hud oan the noos about it. Of course ignoring referendum results is what the SNP do best, aside from biting the hand that feeds like an ungrateful wee dug. :rolleyes:

[Cameron1875]

Scottish Cup.
Independence.
Watching Scotland at a World Cup.

1 down, 2 to go. I know which option the bookies would offer better odds on too. :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

A once in a generation vote said Salmond and Nip in 2014, and there was no aye buts, mibbe ifs, hud oan the noos about it. Of course ignoring referendum results is what the SNP do best, aside from biting the hand that feeds like an ungrateful wee dug. :rolleyes:

How long is a "generation"?

Is it a time limit set by unionists?

[marinello59]

A once in a generation vote said Salmond and Nip in 2014, and there was no aye buts, mibbe ifs, hud oan the noos about it. Of course ignoring referendum results is what the SNP do best, aside from biting the hand that feeds like an ungrateful wee dug. :rolleyes:

Wow.

[G B Young]

Whilst I can understand Unionists being unhappy about the prospect of indyref2, I think those who are saying there is no mandate for it, are clearly deluding themselves.

Ruth Davidson's outburst today to NS calling indyref 2 is comical. It's her Tory party by taking the UK out of the EU, that has created the situation we presently find oursleves in, and provided the mandate for the Scottish Government to hold another independence referendum.

Theresa May would be committing political suicide by blocking a referendum and she knows it.

The outcome of indyref2 will not be determined by the entrenched views of rabid Unionists and Nationalists. It will be the 10/15% of the Scottish electorate who are undecided, or who may change their vote from No to Yes due to Brexit. I can't see there being much movement from Yes to No. The European nationals presently living in Scotland may have a big say in the outcome, as you can see them en masse voting Yes to independence this time around, as they will fear they will be unwelcome in Scotland and the UK, post Brexit.

The situation we find ourselves in has been caused by the majority of those who voted opting for an EU exit. A very large number of these voters were working class, traditional Labour voters, as well as (apparently) one in three SNP supporters. Labour, under the hapless Corbyn, are as much to blame as the Tories and the PM has been saddled with the task of negotiating a Brexit deal that works for the UK, but one which she never wanted in the first place. There should be a realistic amount of airspace given for this, not the suffocating approach of the SNP leadership who claim to be open to compromise but in reality know that their wholly unrealistic demands for Scotland can never be met.

[hibs0666]

Come on now...regardless of your politics, surely you would agree the landscape in Scotland has completely changed a) without Scotland's choosing and b) from that which was presented at the first indyref.

Nope. Unless we are being asked a different question the issue was settled last time round. Are we being asked a different question?

[High-On-Hibs]

Wow.

It seems he wants his nation to be fed by the big hand.

[Mon Dieu4]

A once in a generation vote said Salmond and Nip in 2014, and there was no aye buts, mibbe ifs, hud oan the noos about it. Of course ignoring referendum results is what the SNP do best, aside from biting the hand that feeds like an ungrateful wee dug. :rolleyes:

Doesn't matter if you like it or not, the SNP got more votes than the other parties combined, they can pretty much do what they want, especially when it was clear as day in their manifesto

[Smartie]

Nope. Unless we are being asked a different question the issue was settled last time round. Are we being asked a different question?

We don't know the question yet but I suspect it will be the same.

The conditions surrounding the question are unarguably different though, i.e. the only way to guarantee that you remain within the EU is to vote "no" in 2014, the only way to have a chance to remain within the EU is to vote "yes" in 2018.

The bickering over currency will be different.

These were probably the two biggest factors debated in 2014.

The last vote was fought on entirely different territory to this one.

[PeeJay]

Come on now...regardless of your politics, surely you would agree the landscape in Scotland has completely changed a) without Scotland's choosing and b) from that which was presented at the first indyref.

Current polls would suggest that there is no clear mandate in Scotland for independence, regardless of whether the landscape has changed or not. Sturgeon is acting purely on strategic terms and seemingly against due logic and reasoning, which would demand more time and deliberation be exercised - what choice does this represent for the people living in Scotland?

[JackLadd]

Doesn't matter if you like it or not, the SNP got more votes than the other parties combined, they can pretty much do what they want, especially when it was clear as day in their manifesto


Nope. She got 46.5% at the last Scottish election, which is why her incompetent one issue party needs to butter up wee Paddy Harvey.

[High-On-Hibs]

Current polls would suggest that there is no clear mandate in Scotland for independence, regardless of whether the landscape has changed or not. Sturgeon is acting purely on strategic terms and seemingly against due logic and reasoning, which would demand more time and deliberation be exercised - what choice does this represent for the people living in Scotland?

Despite being included in the mandate in which the Scottish electorate voted in favour for? :confused:

Polls can be conducted in different ways to generate controlled outcomes. A Scottish election can not.

[CropleyWasGod]

A once in a generation vote said Salmond and Nip in 2014, and there was no aye buts, mibbe ifs, hud oan the noos about it. Of course ignoring referendum results is what the SNP do best, aside from biting the hand that feeds like an ungrateful wee dug. :rolleyes:

....sounds like the British Government's response to every ungrateful colony that asked for its sovereignty in the 50's and 60's.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nope. She got 46.5% at the last Scottish election, which is why her incompetent one issue party needs to butter up wee Paddy Harvey.

Wee Jackie Laddy, getting 46.5% gave her the right to form the government and bring forward the proposals in her manifesto. If the Parliament votes for them then they are enacted. Suck it up. :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

Nope. She got 46.5% at the last Scottish election, which is why her incompetent one issue party needs to butter up wee Paddy Harvey.

Wow, Paddy? Really? :faf:

Are you really a Hibs fans? Or a sevconian at the wind up?

[speedy_gonzales]

Ok then. Scotland had an election, voted overwhelmingly for the Scottish National Party. So going by your understanding of how things should be done, Scotland should just skip the referendum and go straight to independence. After all, we've elected a party that supports the notion of independence.
"My understanding of how things should be done"?
I recognise the difference between a referendum and an election, that is all, I have no understanding of how things should be done.

[The Harp Awakes]

The issue has been settled, supposedly for a generation, but it's been dragged centre stage again under a Brexit smokescreen. Tiresome and unnecessary.

Whether you were for Brexit or against it, to brush it under the carpet to say it's a smokescreen is clearly nonsense.

Brexit will create a huge constitutional change for the UK, which will impact on every UK and Scottish citizen. With Scotland voting 62% Remain, having a Nationalist majority in Holyrood and 1 Tory MP in the Westminster Government, the mandate for indyref2 is clear and obvious.

Brexit was a game changer, and Scottish people should have the option of going down a different constitutional route.

[Mon Dieu4]

Nope. She got 46.5% at the last Scottish election, which is why her incompetent one issue party needs to butter up wee Paddy Harvey.

OK not more than them all but a baw hair off it in a system designed for it to be almost impossible, you seem really bitter, it's really not that bad, might turn out great

[pontius pilate]

My thoughts are that this viewpoint is quite disrespectful to the Scottish electorate. I'd suggest people in Scotland who voted remain "care about the EU" just as much as anyone else who voted remain across the rest of the UK.

Whereas I agree and that has been my view for a while and I posted that on the brexit post as well. I do believe that some voters voted to remain one because if indy ref 2 and the other as it was seen as a secure vote. Who could have predicted brexit???? No one

[JackLadd]

....sounds like the British Government's response to every ungrateful colony that asked for its sovereignty in the 50's and 60's.



We are an equal partner, not a subject colony. Of course the irony is that in trying to establish our own colonies in competition with England and Spain we went bankrupt, hence the need for union. But do you think Scotland would have rolled over in the 50s and 60s had the Darien scheme been a success? Go on and humour me. I know all snowflakes and SJW's think independence is some political panacea worth paying any economic price for, just a shame any forensic examination quickly unravels it.

[PeeJay]

Despite being included in the mandate in which the Scottish electorate voted in favour for? :confused:

Polls can be conducted in different ways to generate controlled outcomes. A Scottish election can not.

Not sure what this actually means - it's been a long day? :greengrinAre you perhaps referring to the 1st referendum not actually being about Scottish independence per se, but really about membership of the EU? If I recall correctly, the referendum question in 2014 was "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

[WeeRussell]

That's quite a ramble. :aok:

What news sites, by the way? Daily Mail? :faf:

Exactly - if someone is using online article comments from select English people saying "please go cos we subsidise you" as their argument against another referendum, this thread has a a lot of pages to come :greengrin

[CapitalGreen]

snowflakes and SJW's

Christ, any chance we can keep this patter off hibs.net.

[steakbake]

I'm quite interested to see the SP vote on this. I wonder if Kezia might have a couple of dissenting voices. I suspect not on the day but there are one or two SLab MSPs who have their doubts that running on a solidly pro-union ticket is the right choice.

[WeeRussell]

I can almost feel a swing on here compared to the last referendum thread we had :greengrin

Here's hoping.

[DaveF]

We are an equal partner, not a subject colony. Of course the irony is that in trying to establish our own colonies in competition with England and Spain we went bankrupt, hence the need for union. But do you think Scotland would have rolled over in the 50s and 60s had the Darien scheme been a success? Go on and humour me. I know all snowflakes and SJW's think independence is some political panacea worth paying any economic price for, just a shame any forensic examination quickly unravels it.

What are snowflakes and Sjws?

[Smartie]

Did we do a hibs.net poll the last time?

It would be interesting to compare the two.

[Speedy]

I personally do have an issue with having referendums ad nauseam until we get the desired outcome.
Referendums are important & vital in democracy, but where you have a binary choice of status quo or change, then we have to be careful to not lessen the process by repeatedly asking the same question until the "change" is returned as that will be the last referendum on that question.

A second vote isn't necessarily ad nauseam.

And as you say, the vote was change or status quo. Status quo is no longer as an option so it seems reasonable to have an updated vote on Change A (in UK out EU) or Change B (out UK, in EU).

[High-On-Hibs]

We are an equal partner, not a subject colony. Of course the irony is that in trying to establish our own colonies in competition with England and Spain we went bankrupt, hence the need for union. But do you think Scotland would have rolled over in the 50s and 60s had the Darien scheme been a success? Go on and humour me. I know all snowflakes and SJW's think independence is some political panacea worth paying any economic price for, just a shame any forensic examination quickly unravels it.

The only irony here is still believing that we're an "equal partner".

[Speedy]

Did we do a hibs.net poll the last time?

It would be interesting to compare the two.

Yes, it was a landslide win for independence.

[CropleyWasGod]

We are an equal partner, not a subject colony. Of course the irony is that in trying to establish our own colonies in competition with England and Spain we went bankrupt, hence the need for union. But do you think Scotland would have rolled over in the 50s and 60s had the Darien scheme been a success? Go on and humour me. I know all snowflakes and SJW's think independence is some political panacea worth paying any economic price for, just a shame any forensic examination quickly unravels it.
Are we an equal partner or are we biting the hand that feeds us?

And can I add my voice to those that are asking what an Sjw is?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

What are snowflakes and Sjws?

Snowflake is a pretty distasteful insult used by the American right to dismiss anybody who opposes their world view. No need for it here.

[JeMeSouviens]

Did we do a hibs.net poll the last time?

It would be interesting to compare the two.

Yes, have kicked off a new one, see if anyone's changed position.

[JackLadd]

Exactly - if someone is using online article comments from select English people saying "please go cos we subsidise you" as their argument against another referendum, this thread has a a lot of pages to come :greengrin



Dude, vote aye in Nips ref2 and kiss goodbye to free prescriptions, college degrees, care homes... all the wee bribes that the incompetent one issue SNP have served up to the good people of Paisley and South Renefrewshire, among others, via Mr and Mrs Tommy Barnett's paye. No currency, no ability to print money or a central bank... nae problem! She'll just strut her wee stuff in her two-piece to Brussels and resolve any issue after a few Juncker junkets.

I hae ma doots, and so should any thinking Scot.

[JeMeSouviens]

SJW, social justice warrior

As expected another part of Wee Jackie's charm offensive ... :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayqRzcu16Ww

[High-On-Hibs]

Dude, vote aye in Nips ref2 and kiss goodbye to free prescriptions, college degrees, care homes... all the wee bribes that the incompetent one issue SNP have served up to the good people Paisley and South Renefrewshire, among others, via Mr and Mrs Tommy Barnett's paye. No currency, no ability to print money or a central bank... nae problem! She'll just strut her wee stuff in her two-piece to Brussels and resolve any issue after a few Juncker junkets.

I hae ma doots, and so should any thinking Scot.

Aye.... coz the English tax payer pure subsidizes us n aw that.

As long as you focus on what we take out of the treasury, while completely ignoring how much we contribute to it, then you can keep deluding yourself with that lie.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Dude, vote aye in Nips ref2 and kiss goodbye to free prescriptions, college degrees, care homes... all the wee bribes that the incompetent one issue SNP have served up to the good people Paisley and South Renefrewshire, among others, via Mr and Mrs Tommy Barnett's paye. No currency, no ability to print money or a central bank... nae problem! She'll just strut her wee stuff in her two-piece to Brussels and resolve any issue after a few Juncker junkets.

I hae ma doots, and so should any thinking Scot.

Aye what a basket case Scotland is, the bribes help though.

[easty]

Snowflake is a pretty distasteful insult used by the American right to dismiss anybody who opposes their world view. No need for it here.

Is it distasteful? I wouldn't use it, it's a bit too "bants", "lol" and "mansplaining" for me, but it's basically just calling someone delicate, isn't it?

No idea what SJW is, but I'd assume it's good bants. Lol.

[marinello59]

Is it distasteful? I wouldn't use it, it's a bit too "bants", "lol" and "mansplaining" for me, but it's basically just calling someone delicate, isn't it?

No idea what SJW is, but I'd assume it's good bants. Lol.

It's certainly not helpful, jackladd seems to be on a mission to drive any wavering No voters straight in to the Yes camp.:greengrin

[easty]

Dude, vote aye in Nips ref2 and kiss goodbye to free prescriptions, college degrees, care homes...

Why wasn't this the campaign motto for No, the first time around? I totally disagree, but I kind of like it as a slogan...

[marinello59]

Dude, vote aye in Nips ref2 and kiss goodbye to free prescriptions, college degrees, care homes... all the wee bribes that the incompetent one issue SNP have served up to the good people of Paisley and South Renefrewshire, among others, via Mr and Mrs Tommy Barnett's paye. No currency, no ability to print money or a central bank... nae problem! She'll just strut her wee stuff in her two-piece to Brussels and resolve any issue after a few Juncker junkets.

I hae ma doots, and so should any thinking Scot.

If you can't you enter in to debate without insulting everyone that disagrees with your view then maybe you shouldn't bother posting, it ain't helping your cause.

[beensaidbefore]

I guess that is why she mentioned Autumn 18 to Spring 19 at the earliest. Give people like yourself the chance to assess both optis.

J

Hopefully we know enough by then. I am concerned it could still be at the more talk less action stage, which could make it even more difficult to decide. I suppose only time will tell.

[Moulin Yarns]

Nope. She got 46.5% at the last Scottish election, which is why her incompetent one issue party needs to butter up wee Paddy Harvey.

That will be Patrick Harvey, co-convenor of the Scottish Green Party that held the SNP to account on the budget.

The Scottish Green Party are beholden to nobody least of all the SNP.

[beensaidbefore]

Could be a win win for Scotland. Win if we leave, win if we get more autonomy/money by staying in UK.

[Moulin Yarns]

....sounds like the British Government's response to every ungrateful colony that asked for its sovereignty in the 50's and 60's.

On today Commonwealth Day.

[johnbc70]

It's her Tory party by taking the UK out of the EU, that has created the situation we presently find oursleves in, and provided the mandate for the Scottish Government to hold another independence referendum.

Theresa May would be committing political suicide by blocking a referendum and she knows it.

I thought it was the people voting in the referendum that took us out the EU?

[JackLadd]

Aye what a basket case Scotland is, the bribes help though.


The bribes are great and let's keep them as long as the English are daft enough to let it carry on. Or let's live on our own coin (whatever unnamed currency that is). Let's see how many ex pats come vaulting back to Scotland and put their money into the new Scots Groat and live under the tax regime imposed. Let's see how many high skilled wages stay, especially naturalised migrants who will have to swap their hard earned British passport for a tartan knock off. It's a basket case proposition right enough.


Anyway, said my piece. I can see admin is a nat consumer so I'll stick to the fitba for now.

ggtth.

[hibs0666]

That will be Patrick Harvey, co-convenor of the Scottish Green Party that held the SNP to account on the budget.

The Scottish Green Party are beholden to nobody least of all the SNP.

It must be the only green party that wants to promote an oil based economy. ****ing ********s. The blokes head is so far up Sturgeons arse he could brush her teeth.

[DaveF]

The bribes are great and let's keep them as long as the English are daft enough to let it carry on. Or let's live on our own coin (whatever unnamed currency that is). Let's see how many ex pats come vaulting back to Scotland and put their money into the new Scots Groat and live under the tax regime imposed. Let's see how many high skilled wages stay, especially naturalised migrants who will have to swap their hard earned British passport for a tartan knock off. It's a basket case proposition right enough.


Anyway, said my piece. I can see admin is a nat consumer so I'll stick to the fitba for now.

ggtth.


It must be the only green party that wants to promote an oil based economy. ****ing ********s. The blokes head is so far up Sturgeons arse he could brush her teeth.

And to think it was the Cybernats who were accused of being nasty and angry last time around.

Chill guys, it isn't for another year and a bit, so watch your blood pressure :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Christ, any chance we can keep this patter off hibs.net.

I was going to ask for an explanation. What does he mean?

[hibs0666]

And to think it was the Cybernats who were accused of being nasty and angry last time around.

Chill guys, it isn't for another year and a bit, so watch your blood pressure :greengrin

Nah it's my turn to come out angry. Fortunately your mob are in the minority in your home city, and now need to be challenged at every turn.

[bigwheel]

As someone who is naturally a pro independence minded geezer..I can't believe anyone feels they have enough understanding to be a solid yes or no voter today....On what basis, other than blind loyalty to previously held views, is anyone making the case one way or the other? There is no framework for that decision, either way. We have no idea on the UK situation re Brexit, and no view of the Independence arguments, including how the economic risks will play out.

[cabbageandribs1875]

big thanks to the Scottish Greens for helping this through :agree:

[Smartie]

The bribes are great and let's keep them as long as the English are daft enough to let it carry on. Or let's live on our own coin (whatever unnamed currency that is). Let's see how many ex pats come vaulting back to Scotland and put their money into the new Scots Groat and live under the tax regime imposed. Let's see how many high skilled wages stay, especially migrants who will have to swap their hard earned British passport for a tartan knock off. It's a basket case proposition right enough.


Anyway, said my piece. I can see admin is a nat consumer so I'll stick to the fitba for now.

ggtth.

Have you heard Paul Nuttal's proposals for a "fairer" deal for England on devolution?

The English probably aren't going to be daft enough to keep propping up our ailing economy for much longer. With our serious demographic and workforce issues that lead to that economic underperformance under threat of being worsened by Brexit, I'm not optimistic about the future in a Scotland within the UK but not the EU.

The Union has served a purpose and there would have been times when I'd have voted to remain within it but I think it's run it's course. England and the rest of the UK want to go one way, we seem to want to go another and it is only a loyalty to a red, white and blue flag and a sentimental vision of the past that stand in it's way.

I don't understand why England want us to stay, as I think they deserve to be able to carry on in the direction they wish to in peace, without a country a tenth of it's size constantly banging on about independence and ludicrously claiming/demanding to be an equal partner in a relationship that is anything but.

[DaveF]

Nah it's my turn to come out angry. Fortunately your mob are in the minority in your home city, and now need to be challenged at every turn.

I'm just concerned you won't around to vote if you don't calm down a bit. And I've never been angry at politics. Disapponted Yes. Angry, Nah.

And it's not 'my mob' either. I'm not a member of any political party.

[Smartie]

As someone who is naturally a pro independence minded geezer..I can't believe anyone feels they have enough understanding to be a solid yes or no voter today....On what basis, other than blind loyalty to previously held views, is anyone making the case one way or the other? There is no framework for that decision, either way. We have no idea on the UK situation re Brexit, and no view of the Independence arguments, including how the economic risks will play out.

These decisions tend to be made emotionally rather than logically whether that is right or not.

This tends to be the way nowadays and far crazier notions than Scottish independence have come to pass off the back of it.

Some people will want to pore over detail, many will not.

I think that you either fancy it or not.

People will have an opinion, maybe not set in stone yet but they'll have an inkling which way they would vote if the vote were to happen tomorrow.

That may change for some people based on the debate that is yet to come.

But there are some deeply entrenched views out there that aren't likely to change, where the logical process is to finds arguments to back the opinion rather than to base the opinion on the facts.

[Bristolhibby]

A once in a generation vote said Salmond and Nip in 2014, and there was no aye buts, mibbe ifs, hud oan the noos about it. Of course ignoring referendum results is what the SNP do best, aside from biting the hand that feeds like an ungrateful wee dug. :rolleyes:

Get off the fence pal!

I take it you are a No?

[hibs0666]

I'm just concerned you won't around to vote if you don't calm down a bit. And I've never been angry at politics. Disapponted Yes. Angry, Nah.

And it's not 'my mob' either. I'm not a member of any political party.

I fully expect it to get violent this time around.

[CropleyWasGod]

The bribes are great and let's keep them as long as the English are daft enough to let it carry on. Or let's live on our own coin (whatever unnamed currency that is). Let's see how many ex pats come vaulting back to Scotland and put their money into the new Scots Groat and live under the tax regime imposed. Let's see how many high skilled wages stay, especially naturalised migrants who will have to swap their hard earned British passport for a tartan knock off. It's a basket case proposition right enough.


Anyway, said my piece. I can see admin is a nat consumer so I'll stick to the fitba for now.

ggtth.
In its defence "admin" is not a 'nat consumer", whatever that is.

It's the people that run this board, in the course of which they have to try and keep debate on a respectful level, and prevent it from descending into name-calling and casual homophobia.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Slavers]

It's like a game of poker but with the peoples as chips. All cards have yet to be shown but aw'body who playing has pushed all in. Who wins? **** knows haha

[snooky]

Could be a win win for Scotland. Win if we leave, win if we get more autonomy/money by staying in UK.

Alas, the pessimist in me says it's more of a lose/lose. It's the wrong time & for the wrong reason.
If we vote 'out' (of UK), we're at the mercy of the EU (and the world).
If we vote 'in', we're at the mercy of the Maytroopers (and they won't be kind).

Fight the battles you know you are going to win. I don't think this is one of them unfortunately.
That said I will cast my vote at the due time on what I think is best for my country.

"A week is a long time in politics" - Harold Wilson

If the government had shown any class the first time around they would have fought a clean fight and if the Yes vote had won, let us go with grace and goodwill. The fact that they didn't speaks volumes, IMO.

[DaveF]

I fully expect it to get violent this time around.

It certainy will if you talk to people in the way that you are posting on this thread.

[hibs0666]

It certainy will if you talk to people in the way that you are posting on this thread.

Is that a threat? If not, who is it you are speaking on behalf of that wishes to threaten me?

[DaveF]

Is that a threat? If not, who is it you are speaking on behalf of that wishes to threaten me?

Look, you are clearly an intelligent person, but for some reason you are posting like a right idiot on this thread to date, ranting and raving all over the shop.

Of course it's not a threat and I'm posting on behalf of me - who the hell else do you think I'm representing?

You brought the violence line into it. I merely agreed with you that Yes, there would be violence (most likely) if you spoke to real people using the same tone and wording you are using on this thread.

Go and put the kettle on, calm down and come back to the thread and put your point across in the reasoned manner of which you are very capable of doing. Otherwise, you just look like that JackLadd character under a different name.

[ronaldo7]

Meanwhile MP's have overturned a Brexit bill amendment designed to guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK.

Theirs no talking to this Tory Government, they're just not listening.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

We don't know the question yet but I suspect it will be the same.

The conditions surrounding the question are unarguably different though, i.e. the only way to guarantee that you remain within the EU is to vote "no" in 2014, the only way to have a chance to remain within the EU is to vote "yes" in 2018.

The bickering over currency will be different.

These were probably the two biggest factors debated in 2014.

The last vote was fought on entirely different territory to this one.

You make some good points, both in this post and others.

The currency question will be particularly interesting this time round. The yes campaign will be arguing that we're better inside the EU than outside so it would be difficult to make that argument while still proposing we keep sterling over the euro.

I do find the timing this time round quite strange as we won't know the details of the Brexit deal before the vote. For me the argument for Indy would be a lot stronger if Brexit had definitively failed. Maybe we need to become independent before the UK leaves to avoid re-applying?

I was pro Indy last time time round after being quite strongly No then slowly drifting over around the 5yr before the referendum. Not that it matttered as I wasn't eligible to vote.

[Hibrandenburg]

He probably wouldn't even say it to Mhairi Black's face.

:faf:

[beensaidbefore]

Alas, the pessimist in me says it's more of a lose/lose. It's the wrong time & for the wrong reason.
If we vote 'out' (of UK), we're at the mercy of the EU (and the world).
If we vote 'in', we're at the mercy of the Maytroopers (and they won't be kind).

Fight the battles you know you are going to win. I don't think this is one of them unfortunately.
That said I will cast my vote at the due time on what I think is best for my country.

"A week is a long time in politics" - Harold Wilson

If the government had shown any class the first time around they would have fought a clean fight and if the Yes vote had won, let us go with grace and goodwill. The fact that they didn't speaks volumes, IMO.

In the kindest possible way, I hope you are wrong!😀

On your final point, I fully agree. The lies told still irk me.

[Saturday Boy]

Bizarre.

When I had a birthday weekend in London in January, most of the locals I spoke to were thinking about moving to Scotland and voting YES in the next referendum, they realised it was their only hope of remaining in the EU.

[cabbageandribs1875]

He probably wouldn't even say it to Mhairi Black's face.


lol, he'd be a 'fool' to do so, but he does appear to be a rather angry Ladd, frothing at the mouth etc

[Hibrandenburg]

One of the major considerations which motivated my No vote last time was uncertainty about EU membership. The argument, which was valid, was that only a No vote could guarantee our future EU membership. Well, that argument was taken off the table last June, and the dishonest campaign of the Brexit camp has left a bitter taste. You don't need to be Einstein to have foreseen the potential consequences of a Brexit vote in circumstances where a solid majority of Scots voted remain. I'm angry about the way Brexit was mis-sold; it is further evidence of the different visions of England and Scotland, which seems irreconcilable.

Good post!

[ronaldo7]

You make some good points, both in this post and others.

The currency question will be particularly interesting this time round. The yes campaign will be arguing that we're better inside the EU than outside so it would be difficult to make that argument while still proposing we keep sterling over the euro.

I do find the timing this time round quite strange as we won't know the details of the Brexit deal before the vote. For me the argument for Indy would be a lot stronger if Brexit had definitively failed. Maybe we need to become independent before the UK leaves to avoid re-applying?

I was pro Indy last time time round after being quite strongly No then slowly drifting over around the 5yr before the referendum. Not that it matttered as I wasn't eligible to vote.

That's not actually what she said today, but I understand why you may think so. Laura Kuenssberg from the BBC was tweeting as much.

11.30 into the link she says "When the terms of Brexit are known". :aok:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hluT4oprkmA

[Jack]

I see nats are playing the man and not the ball as usual. You have never dealt in facts, only heather brained dreams and castles made of sand / tartan utopias. Look at the raw data of where we do our trade (17% Eu, 68% England), the current deficit of revenue vs expenditure in Scotland (9%, and not including legacy debt that would be added), the oil taxation revenue on current Brent crude price (0%), the 10% unemployment in the Euro zone, and argue on that. Go on and make a case. How long do you think we'd last? How would it be better? Sturgeon will be A okay, not most of you.

You're going to need a big bus to get all that on!

[Holmesdale Hibs]

That's not actually what she said today, but I understand why you may think so. Laura Kuenssberg from the BBC was tweeting as much.

11.30 into the link she says "When the terms of Brexit are known". :aok:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hluT4oprkmA

Ah right, cheers. I should really know not to trust everything I hear on the BBC :aok:

If that's the case then it would likely be 2019 then, or even 2020 if they extend the negotiations for an extra year.

[ronaldo7]

Ah right, cheers. I should really know not to trust everything I hear on the BBC :aok:

If that's the case then it would likely be 2019 then, or even 2020 if they extend the negotiations for an extra year.

They only have 2 years of negs with the EU, so whenever they trigger article 50, we'll get a better idea then.:aok:

[Jack]

https://www.conservatives.com/-/media/Email/ruthlogo.ashx?h=80&w=352&hash=DD7EBD9E4800AF76D2BFA7D5B6588843A410D3CD&hash=DD7EBD9E4800AF76D2BFA7D5B6588843A410D3CD&la=en
Dear XXXXXXX,

Today Nicola Sturgeon confirmed she intends to call a second referendum on Scottish independence.
Time is short if we are to stop her, so forgive me if I come straight to the point.
I need your help. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=QB3u3FN1LtsJMVNfiIETf% 2b58Kn4zxTeWX7IvYql8Qel72wzuqp7JEoFgF7zccRH2MvURUk ZB%2ftVfq1lEABLZiJOHj6bC%2flxZtDOUAyuMOjTMK59dcNVw qNfC8BkQo%2fG0YQk8dlWZWW5cvPJLs%2bqGfr3oHAt3QDLhQy P2zw20HXB0VodSoDEPzo%2blKN2trY12eD4o6BLI33CKPfw2JM 7NMYnJUrOZaZSsbQMV9xEVd0U%3d)
We know that the SNP has been building up a huge war-chest to fight another referendum.
And we also know Nicola Sturgeon will have no hesitation in putting the full power of the Scottish government behind her campaign to break up Britain. That’s the same government we pay for, and which is meant to be hard at work improving our local schools and hospitals.
So we need to stop this in its tracks now. We need to match her, pound for pound.
Please make a donation today, and you have my personal guarantee that every penny will be spent on opposing Nicola Sturgeon’s new independence referendum drive. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=QB3u3FN1LtsJMVNfiIETf% 2b58Kn4zxTeWX7IvYql8Qel72wzuqp7JEoFgF7zccRH2MvURUk ZB%2ftVfq1lEABLZiJOHj6bC%2flxZtDOUAyuMOjTMK59dcNVw qNfC8BkQo%2fG0YQk8dlWZWW5cvPJLs%2bqGfr3oHAt3QDLhQy P2zw20HXB0VodSoDEPzo%2blKN2trY12eD4o6BLI33CKPfw2JM 7NMYnJUrOZaZSsbQMV9xEVd0U%3d)
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Ruth Davidson
Leader of the Opposition - Scottish Conservatives
PS: You can also help by signing our petition against a second independence referendum. Thousands of people have already signed it, so make sure your voice is heard. (https://www.conservatives.com/sitecore/RedirectUrlPage2.aspx?ec_eq=rZr7tz2lFUIaNmtwjMVezp wRFmL5iXA2pnoyjUJq%2be6kOgWFmZL0t36YUx2FcbjCH4m%2b jPooS2mGUYF2alLNZRAgZdImXDIgAlMr%2fmzqWiKk6z7EOYmr IydmHJKuN3OatEsDmqwDRXSmhGaq%2bjFB7BzMTRZEldG2ZOtZ usDLC9vyso1dvSVdfPpIU6TXLmv0rd9dW54DAOaUVfKxcs1OD8 bG1WD4zoegUriOTfJVyBs%3d)


I'm pretty sure that it would be illegal for the Scottish Government to do this and the executive wing, civil servants, would make it absolutely clear it could not be done.

The Torys already feeding lies to their followers.

[Jack]

The bribes are great and let's keep them as long as the English are daft enough to let it carry on. Or let's live on our own coin (whatever unnamed currency that is). Let's see how many ex pats come vaulting back to Scotland and put their money into the new Scots Groat and live under the tax regime imposed. Let's see how many high skilled wages stay, especially naturalised migrants who will have to swap their hard earned British passport for a tartan knock off. It's a basket case proposition right enough.


Anyway, said my piece. I can see admin is a nat consumer so I'll stick to the fitba for now.

ggtth.

The GBP is crap and what's left of it now, never mind at the end of brexit, is unlikely to be worth the plastic it's printed on.

Even the Asda Christmas chocolate pound cost £1.50!

I've just come back from a fairly lengthy holiday and was hit by the post brexit vote £. I spent around 3 grand and I reckon that was £600 more than would have been needed a year ago.

Just wait until the Great British public wake up to that!

The rest of the world thinks the GBP is crap and to be honest Scotland would be better with any other currency including the groat you're scoffing at.

[snooky]

That's not actually what she said today, but I understand why you may think so. Laura Kuenssberg from the BBC was tweeting as much.

11.30 into the link she says "When the terms of Brexit are known". :aok:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hluT4oprkmA


I'm well aware Wings gives a Pro-Nat view however, even if you're not for independence, it's worthwhile looking at both sides of the equation and then judge for yourself as to who's telling porkies - maybe it's both sides.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/fury-of-the-phantoms/

[ronaldo7]

I'm well aware Wings gives a Pro-Nat view however, even if you're not for independence, it's worthwhile looking at both sides of the equation and then judge for yourself as to who's telling porkies - maybe it's both sides.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/fury-of-the-phantoms/

It's difficult to keep up with them all these days.:greengrin

Thanks for the link, I'm sure some of those not disposed to visit it, might give it a go.:aok:

[stoneyburn hibs]

I'm pretty sure that it would be illegal for the Scottish Government to do this and the executive wing, civil servants, would make it absolutely clear it could not be done.

The Torys already feeding lies to their followers.


I'd imagine that Ruth Davidson is tonight doing a wee jig. Her relentless obsession of talking about Independence rather than Tory policy is back on the front page.

[21.05.2016]

We need to go for this 100%. The suits in Westminster are so far from reality and furthermore they couldn't give a **** about Scotland.


Many many countries far more worse off than ourselves have done well independantly so why can't we. Lets stop being Englands lap dog, lets get rid of the nuclear weapons that England have dumped on our shores, lets get a government we vote for and lets take control of our own future.

I couldn't just about understand why folk would vote NO the last time but since then we have had a tory government we didn't want and been pulled out of Europe which we didn't want.

[Time For Heroes]

Delighted

I knew you would be 👀

[Hibrandenburg]

Who is suggesting that we cease trading with England? You are aware that they sell more to us than we do to them?

The current deficit is an issue, but nobody should take what GERS says as gospel. This was a mistake made by the SNP at the last referendum. One I hope they won't make again. IMO you can't effectively measure the extent to which England economically supports Scotland (or vice versa) when there are not separate English and Scottish economies.

As for oil revenues, it's amusing how you concentrate on a single bad year. Check out the peaks and troughs of the last 30 years. Alistair Darling himself stated back in 2008 that "Scotland's oil revenues have been underwriting the UK's failure to balance the books for decades".

One of my favourite quotes comes from Derek Bateman and truly sums up your position - "A country denied the ability to run its own economy is blamed for being bankrupt by the authority which exercises those macro-economic powers over it. The British Treasury pulls our wings off and then laughs when we can't fly".

As for posters playing the man, you have nobody to blame but yourself for that.





Love that quote, never heard it before.

[Time For Heroes]

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

In a nutshell

[HiBremian]

It must be the only green party that wants to promote an oil based economy. ****ing ********s. The blokes head is so far up Sturgeons arse he could brush her teeth.

Deary me. Except it doesn't. If you want to attack your opponent, it would help to read up on their policies first.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

A once in a generation vote said Salmond and Nip in 2014, and there was no aye buts, mibbe ifs, hud oan the noos about it. Of course ignoring referendum results is what the SNP do best, aside from biting the hand that feeds like an ungrateful wee dug. :rolleyes:

So you agree with all that Alex Salmond says? His opinion is the deciding factor?

[Hibrandenburg]

Current polls would suggest that there is no clear mandate in Scotland for independence, regardless of whether the landscape has changed or not. Sturgeon is acting purely on strategic terms and seemingly against due logic and reasoning, which would demand more time and deliberation be exercised - what choice does this represent for the people living in Scotland?

Polls mean nothing, elections do.

[Hibrandenburg]

It must be the only green party that wants to promote an oil based economy. ****ing ********s. The blokes head is so far up Sturgeons arse he could brush her teeth.

Aye because Scotland has no other energy sources :rolleyes:

[Hibrandenburg]

Have you heard Paul Nuttal's proposals for a "fairer" deal for England on devolution?

The English probably aren't going to be daft enough to keep propping up our ailing economy for much longer. With our serious demographic and workforce issues that lead to that economic underperformance under threat of being worsened by Brexit, I'm not optimistic about the future in a Scotland within the UK but not the EU.

The Union has served a purpose and there would have been times when I'd have voted to remain within it but I think it's run it's course. England and the rest of the UK want to go one way, we seem to want to go another and it is only a loyalty to a red, white and blue flag and a sentimental vision of the past that stand in it's way.

I don't understand why England want us to stay, as I think they deserve to be able to carry on in the direction they wish to in peace, without a country a tenth of it's size constantly banging on about independence and ludicrously claiming/demanding to be an equal partner in a relationship that is anything but.

It must be because they find us Sweaties to be charming and endearing. Why else would they pay our giros for so long.

[Hibrandenburg]

I fully expect it to get violent this time around.

Aye, they'll be battering wee lassies again to the tune of "the cry was no surrender".