Indy Ref 2

[Jack]

By 'we' i presume you mean the SNP? I understand perfectly why they have. But by the same token you have to understand why the UK govt have said no?

As pointed out above, its completely impractical for different parts of the same country to be working in different economic rules and laws, different legal system, different borders, security arrangents, democratic structure.

Which legal system would have applied? Would Scotland habe lost access to the UK single market?

Any reasonable person cam see it for the political theatre it was. It woyld have beem creating an independent Scotland.

In case you've forgotten we, in Scotland the country not any political party, already have a separate legal system. We, in Scotland the country not any political party, have had a separate legal system for ever.

Has anyone asked if Scotland could remain in the single market to see what is or isn't possible?

Is anyone likely to ask?

That's the problem, there's no-one speaking for Scotland in Brexit.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And that's the least they'll ever have for a very long time, if Indy Ref 2 fails. Marginal vote swapping between the unionist parties, which amount to nada in the spectrum of Holyrood.

I dont really understand what you mean?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Still massively ahead in all westminster and holyrood VI polls. The only current movement in Scottish politics is Lab leaking their harder unionist voters to the Ruth Davidson No Surrender party.

Comments like that are beneath you.

Thats a very loaded term and you know it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

English nationalism is based on ethnic supreme small and the Scottish variety is civic. To say that both are similar never mind dangerous is absolute tosh and shows a complete lack of understanding of what is going on in Scotland.

I agree its civic nationalism, but thats not where it came from, or where its rooted.

There absolutely is a strong anti-englishness to the SNP, and many of their supporters and activists are nationalists in fhe traditional sense.

Fair play to the party hierarchy, they have worked hard to distance themselves from that, either for poltical expediency of genuine conviction is a matter of opinion.

But if you have ever been at an SNP conference and the social events at night,amd seen/heard them sing Scots Whae Hae at the end of the night, youd know ot lurks below the surface of many of them.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As the EU have said their won't be parallel negotiations on trade whilst we agree the divorce deal, maybe we could use all those civil servants who'll be twiddling their thumbs doing nowt. :greengrin

Great Britain must have the best, and most up to date negotiators looking at all those deals eh. Global Britain and all that.:faf:

I think Tusk's note today, as well as throw the EUs weight bebind Spain in that territorial dispute (what the eff is that about, surely even the pro-Europeans will condemn that?), made it quite clear that paralell negotiations will happen.

Apparently Merkel has pulled on his chain a wee bit.

Countries, not the EU, will ultimately decide i suspect.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think Tusk's note today, as well as throw the EUs weight bebind Spain in that territorial dispute, made it quite clear that paralell negotiations will happen.

Apparently Merkel has pulled on his chain a wee bit.

Countries, not the EU, will ultimately decide i suspect.

Also.its very easy to cast aspersions, but have you any idea how complicated brexit will be? It will take an enormous amount of man hours.

Funnily enough, at the same time as Nicola was sitting all comfy and relaxed on her sofa writing pointless tokens to the PM, NHS Tayside needs to get special administrators in to help it turn around a multi- million pound black hole in its finances just so ot can dekiver basic services to Scottish patients.

This is the same govt that have jusy given an unfunded commitment to more IVF, and promised GPs an extra half a billion that nobody knows whete it will come from.

But thats probably all the big, bad tories fault in that there London eh?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Comments like that are beneath you.

Thats a very loaded term and you know it.

True though. Let's not beat about the bush, Ruth no policy Davidson has there support regardless.

[ronaldo7]

I think Tusk's note today, as well as throw the EUs weight bebind Spain in that territorial dispute (what the eff is that about, surely even the pro-Europeans will condemn that?), made it quite clear that paralell negotiations will happen.

Apparently Merkel has pulled on his chain a wee bit.

Countries, not the EU, will ultimately decide i suspect.

I've been looking about for some evidence of this, however I can only find links to articles saying the opposite, Maybe you can help.:aok:

http://mobile.bignewsnetwork.com/news/252635509/european-council-rules-out-parallel-talks-as-tusk-unveils-draft-eu-negotiating-guidelines

http://naijaoversabi.com/2017/04/01/tusk-says-eu-rules-out-parallel-talks-on-brexit.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3221178/eu-council-president-donald-tusk-prepares-to-say-the-eu-is-ready-to-open-talks-on-future-trade-before-brexit-as-he-issues-tough-guidelines-on-talks-to-the-rest-of-the-bloc/

http://www.independent.com.mt/articles/2017-03-31/local-news/EU-draft-guidelines-say-British-exit-talks-come-first-6736172335

[marinello59]

Still massively ahead in all westminster and holyrood VI polls. The only current movement in Scottish politics is Lab leaking their harder unionist voters to the Ruth Davidson No Surrender party.

That's pretty poor. Comments like that will do nothing to win over the votes we need.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm all for reasoned debate. Why is it 'tosh?

glory glory

Put simply. The Scottish Nationalism we see calling for independence is based on the wish to self govern in an all inclusive society. British Nationalism is the belief that British born citizens should have more rights than citizens from abroad.

[ronaldo7]

That's pretty poor. Comments like that will do nothing to win over the votes we need.

You only have to follow the Murdo Fraser twitter feed to see why comments like this are made.

WATP, and Queens 11, spring to mind.

[Just Alf]

Put simply. The Scottish Nationalism we see calling for independence is based on the wish to self govern in an all inclusive society. British Nationalism is the belief that British born citizens should have more rights than citizens from abroad.

Got it in a nutshell, I know of 2 SNP members who are English.

As an aside in the same (but different!) vein I've English family in Newcastle who sometimes wish they could "come with us" if we were ever to get self determination.

[Just Alf]

Looking at some of the Gibralter articles and I see their relationship with Westminster is very different from us, the only things reserved to Westminster are defence and foreign policy..

... I wonder what the UK political world would look like if that had been in place in Scotland?

[Moulin Yarns]

Also.its very easy to cast aspersions, but have you any idea how complicated brexit will be? It will take an enormous amount of man hours.

Funnily enough, at the same time as Nicola was sitting all comfy and relaxed on her sofa writing pointless tokens to the PM, NHS Tayside needs to get special administrators in to help it turn around a multi- million pound black hole in its finances just so ot can dekiver basic services to Scottish patients.

This is the same govt that have jusy given an unfunded commitment to more IVF, and promised GPs an extra half a billion that nobody knows whete it will come from.

But thats probably all the big, bad tories fault in that there London eh?


Get your facts right. Assurance Advisory Group, are not special administrators, and are appointed by the NHS Scotland.

http://www.forfardispatch.co.uk/news/health/advisers-appointed-to-help-with-financial-challenge-1-4407640

I am in Tayside and therefore use NHS Tayside and over the years have had nothing but praise for them.

[Moulin Yarns]

Somehow the most recent poll on the referendum seems to be missing in the media

http://survation.com/holyrood-decide-new-independence-referendum-majority-scots/


New polling by Survation of residents in Scotland show that a majority (53%) think that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to decide if there should be another Scottish Independence Referendum, rather than the UK Parliament in Westminster (34%). This includes almost a third (31%) who did not vote for independence in 2014.
Removing those who did not have an opinion, 61% think the right should fall on Holyrood, compared to 39% who think the right should lie with Westminster.

Half (50%) believe that the right to determine the timing of a future referendum should also lie with the Scottish Parliament than those who thought Westminster should have that power – 39%. Once again, removing those who said ‘don’t know’ (11%) leaves 56% thinking the timing of another Independence Referendum should be in the hands of Holyrood compared to Westminster (44%).

Finally, 54% of Scots said that they did not think that Westminster should have the right to block any plans for a referendum in Scotland once it has been voted for and agreed on by the Scottish Parliament. 39% said that Westminster should have the right to block such plans, even if they had been voted for in Holyrood, with 7% saying that they didn’t know; removing those shows that 58% think that Westminster should not be able to block the plans, the 42% saying they should.




Not that I will read too much into it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Looking at some of the Gibralter articles and I see their relationship with Westminster is very different from us, the only things reserved to Westminster are defence and foreign policy..

... I wonder what the UK political world would look like if that had been in place in Scotland?

I think it would be a great solution. Federalism for thr UK seems to be the consensus.

Interestingly if the UK govt put devo max as a third optiob on the ballot, as they bizarrely rsfused to do last time, it would likely stop indy happening.

[Hibrandenburg]

Got it in a nutshell, I know of 2 SNP members who are English.

As an aside in the same (but different!) vein I've English family in Newcastle who sometimes wish they could "come with us" if we were ever to get self determination.

I too have many family members born and bred in England. Many English friends from my time in the Army and many English friends from my present job. To say I'm anti English is just ridiculous and a bit insulting.

Someone summed up things nicely earlier when they mentioned that QE2 was born into a dynasty that reigned over about a third of the world's population and will likely die reigning only over England and Wales. How many of those countries who gained their independence from the UK are now banging down the door asking to give up their sovereignty?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

In case you've forgotten we, in Scotland the country not any political party, already have a separate legal system. We, in Scotland the country not any political party, have had a separate legal system for ever.

Has anyone asked if Scotland could remain in the single market to see what is or isn't possible?

Is anyone likely to ask?

That's the problem, there's no-one speaking for Scotland in Brexit.

Its separate but it has the same supreme court as England.

Our PM is, Foreigb affairs is reserved. Its what we all voted for in 2014.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've been looking about for some evidence of this, however I can only find links to articles saying the opposite, Maybe you can help.:aok:

http://mobile.bignewsnetwork.com/news/252635509/european-council-rules-out-parallel-talks-as-tusk-unveils-draft-eu-negotiating-guidelines

http://naijaoversabi.com/2017/04/01/tusk-says-eu-rules-out-parallel-talks-on-brexit.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3221178/eu-council-president-donald-tusk-prepares-to-say-the-eu-is-ready-to-open-talks-on-future-trade-before-brexit-as-he-issues-tough-guidelines-on-talks-to-the-rest-of-the-bloc/

http://www.independent.com.mt/articles/2017-03-31/local-news/EU-draft-guidelines-say-British-exit-talks-come-first-6736172335

I dont remember his exact wording, but it changed from no paralell talks until exit agreement is complete, to once exit talks are underway and they are satisfied progress is being made, parallel talks can begin.

Thats a softening of their stance IMO.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You only have to follow the Murdo Fraser twitter feed to see why comments like this are made.

WATP, and Queens 11, spring to mind.

Didnt Mhari Black have some fairly anti-catholic tweets about nuns and priests discovered on her twitter feed when she was elected.

Agree about Fraser though, total hun welt. And im not even sure he is from the west. So we all know why he supports them...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Get your facts right. Assurance Advisory Group, are not special administrators, and are appointed by the NHS Scotland.

http://www.forfardispatch.co.uk/news/health/advisers-appointed-to-help-with-financial-challenge-1-4407640

I am in Tayside and therefore use NHS Tayside and over the years have had nothing but praise for them.

So Paul Gray, the cheif exec of NHS Scotland who answers directly to the cab sec, hasnt sent in a team of people who answer directly to him, to 'help' NHS Tayside balance their books?

Read between the lines, thats no advisory group.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I too have many family members born and bred in England. Many English friends from my time in the Army and many English friends from my present job. To say I'm anti English is just ridiculous and a bit insulting.

Someone summed up things nicely earlier when they mentioned that QE2 was born into a dynasty that reigned over about a third of the world's population and will likely die reigning only over England and Wales. How many of those countries who gained their independence from the UK are now banging down the door asking to give up their sovereignty?


The point about QE2 is a good one, and quite startling actually.

[ronaldo7]

Didnt Mhari Black have some fairly anti-catholic tweets about nuns and priests discovered on her twitter feed when she was elected.

Agree about Fraser though, total hun welt. And im not even sure he is from the west. So we all know why he supports them...

I've seen tweets about being anti Celtic, but not Anti Catholic. Maybe you could provide them.:aok:

[Moulin Yarns]

Its separate but it has the same supreme court as England.

Our PM is, Foreigb affairs is reserved. Its what we all voted for in 2014.

Not all of us otherwise it would have been 100% No

[Jack]

I agree its civic nationalism, but thats not where it came from, or where its rooted.

There absolutely is a strong anti-englishness to the SNP, and many of their supporters and activists are nationalists in fhe traditional sense.

Fair play to the party hierarchy, they have worked hard to distance themselves from that, either for poltical expediency of genuine conviction is a matter of opinion.

But if you have ever been at an SNP conference and the social events at night,amd seen/heard them sing Scots Whae Hae at the end of the night, youd know ot lurks below the surface of many of them.

Given all the previous crap you've contributed to this thread that, imo, trumps them all.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Given all the previous crap you've contributed to this thread that, imo, trumps them all.

Ok, thanks Jack, thats a really insightful commment.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not all of us otherwise it would have been 100% No

Yeah fair dos, clumsily worded by me.

Its what we, as a country voted for though.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've seen tweets about being anti Celtic, but not Anti Catholic. Maybe you could provide them.:aok:

No i cant provide them, i think they were removed pretty sharply. But i recall it was comments about nuns, or something like that.

So she just hates Celtic then. Hopefully for footballing reasons.

[ronaldo7]

No i cant provide them, i think they were removed pretty sharply. But i recall it was comments about nuns, or something like that.

So she just hates Celtic then. Hopefully for footballing reasons.

I said, Anti Celtic, and you changed that to Hates. Maybe she said Huns, and you misinterpreted to Nuns.:wink:

[makaveli1875]

I said, Anti Celtic, and you changed that to Hates. Maybe she said Huns, and you misinterpreted to Nuns.:wink:

This is what she said about celtic

“I’ve only just realised - I really f***** hate Celtic” and “Celtic, yer a joke!#****".

also

Britains youngest MP fantasised about “putting the nut” on Labour councillors.
Black - who polls say could unseat shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander as MP for Paisley and Renfrewshire South - bragged on Twitter: “Smirnoff Ice is the drink of the gods - I cannae handle this c*** man.”

Another of her posts said: “Woke up beside half a can of Tennents and a full pizza and more money than I came out with. I call that a success!”

[Hibrandenburg]

This is what she said about celtic

“I’ve only just realised - I really f***** hate Celtic” and “Celtic, yer a joke!#****".

also

Britains youngest MP fantasised about “putting the nut” on Labour councillors.
Black - who polls say could unseat shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander as MP for Paisley and Renfrewshire South - bragged on Twitter: “Smirnoff Ice is the drink of the gods - I cannae handle this c*** man.”

Another of her posts said: “Woke up beside half a can of Tennents and a full pizza and more money than I came out with. I call that a success!”







So what! Our former Prime Minister stuck his #@*$ in a dead pigs mouth.

[ronaldo7]

This is what she said about celtic

“I’ve only just realised - I really f***** hate Celtic” and “Celtic, yer a joke!#****".

also

Britains youngest MP fantasised about “putting the nut” on Labour councillors.
Black - who polls say could unseat shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander as MP for Paisley and Renfrewshire South - bragged on Twitter: “Smirnoff Ice is the drink of the gods - I cannae handle this c*** man.”

Another of her posts said: “Woke up beside half a can of Tennents and a full pizza and more money than I came out with. I call that a success!”










I knew what she tweeted, thanks.

So they were nothing to do with Catholics then.

[marinello59]

You only have to follow the Murdo Fraser twitter feed to see why comments like this are made.

WATP, and Queens 11, spring to mind.

So we should let Twitter set the tone of the debate? We should be avoiding divisive language rather than fuelling it.

[ronaldo7]

So we should let Twitter set the tone of the debate? We should be avoiding divisive language rather than fuelling it.

I'm not saying that. I understand, however, why that comment may be made. Some people will use it, some won't. Divisive language is mainstream these days, you only have to watch the BBC to know that.

Only this week, Ruth Davidson on BBCQT spraffing about the IRA, and Jeremy Corbyn. Divisive, and no need for it, although it scored a political point...FOR HER.

It's your choice to challenge it, as it's mine to understand it.:greengrin

[xyz23jc]

So what! Our former Prime Minister stuck his #@*$ in a dead pigs mouth.

Kwality! What a come back!!! F****** awesome!! :thumbsup::greengrin:top marks

[makaveli1875]

So what! Our former Prime Minister stuck his #@*$ in a dead pigs mouth.

if you want your dream of an open and inclusive society , you cant discriminate against the pig *****ers .

[JeMeSouviens]

That's pretty poor. Comments like that will do nothing to win over the votes we need.

Really? I'm surprised you and SHB are as sensitive in this regard. The Scottish Unionist Party has a long history of playing the "orange card". The Union in their title is the Irish one btw. They might be a little more subtle these days but with watp Fraser and Tomkins among their leading lights, it's definitely there.

The great Lab-> SNP shift from 2007 to 2015 has tailed off imo. We are now seeing further leakage from Lab to Tory as they try to out Brit each other. Only one winner there.

[marinello59]

Really? I'm surprised you and SHB are as sensitive in this regard. The Scottish Unionist Party has a long history of playing the "orange card". The Union in their title is the Irish one btw. They might be a little more subtle these days but with watp Fraser and Tomkins among their leading lights, it's definitely there.

The great Lab-> SNP shift from 2007 to 2015 has tailed off imo. We are now seeing further leakage from Lab to Tory as they try to out Brit each other. Only one winner there.

Sensitive? Maybe a bit concerned at the way those who oppose Independence are increasingly dismissed using language and terms that were only in common use in Northern Ireland prior to the first referundum. Your out-Brit comment falls in to that category but you knew that anyway. How on earth are we supposed to convince people that an Independent Scotland will be place where all who live there can feel comfortable when the opinions of all those who don't vote SNP (or Green) are dismissed using divisive terms like those. If that's how we portray 'civic' Nationalism then it is going to looks just as ugly and unattractive as ethnic Nationalism to those we need to win over. We need to unite people, not alienate them further.

[makaveli1875]

Sensitive? Maybe a bit concerned at the way those who oppose Independence are increasingly dismissed using language and terms that were only in common use in Northern Ireland prior to the first referundum. Your out-Brit comment falls in to that category but you knew that anyway. How on earth are we supposed to convince people that an Independent Scotland will be place where all who live there can feel comfortable when the opinions of all those who don't vote SNP (or Green) are dismissed using divisive terms like those. If that's how we portray 'civic' Nationalism then it is going to looks just as ugly and unattractive as ethnic Nationalism to those we need to win over. We need to unite people, not alienate them further.

Welcome to SNP Scotland , open and inclusive if you agree with the Nicola . If not you can **** off :crazy:

[northstandhibby]

Put simply. The Scottish Nationalism we see calling for independence is based on the wish to self govern in an all inclusive society. British Nationalism is the belief that British born citizens should have more rights than citizens from abroad.

We weren't discussing British Nationalism and the UK Westminster governs for all of its citizens it has jurisdiction over with devolution allowing us to make distinct choices to shape our society anyhow without requiring full Nationalism (Full Political Control).

The big picture questions are myriad and extremely precarious and I for one would far rather remain within the UK and our island nations and argue we (UK) should still have access to the single market and re-join the EU at some later time.

We are much stronger and richer as part of an inclusive devolved UK as distinctive proud Scots.

glory glory

[grunt]

We are much stronger and richer as part of an inclusive devolved UK as distinctive proud Scots.

The rest of the UK doesn't feel very inclusive at the moment.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I said, Anti Celtic, and you changed that to Hates. Maybe she said Huns, and you misinterpreted to Nuns.:wink:

Is there anything about the SNP you dont agree with, or think is wrong?

[johnbc70]

Is there anything about the SNP you dont agree with, or think is wrong?

I am really interested in this answer, maybe once a SNP leaflet was crumpled as it went through the letterbox?

[allmodcons]

Sensitive? Maybe a bit concerned at the way those who oppose Independence are increasingly dismissed using language and terms that were only in common use in Northern Ireland prior to the first referundum. Your out-Brit comment falls in to that category but you knew that anyway. How on earth are we supposed to convince people that an Independent Scotland will be place where all who live there can feel comfortable when the opinions of all those who don't vote SNP (or Green) are dismissed using divisive terms like those. If that's how we portray 'civic' Nationalism then it is going to looks just as ugly and unattractive as ethnic Nationalism to those we need to win over. We need to unite people, not alienate them further.

I'm afraid there are many No voters who simply do not want an inclusive Scotland and, funnily enough, these are the same ones offended by references to British Nationalism.

FFS I spend half of my time on here defending my position as a Scottish Nationalist against comparisons with everything from UKIP to Nazism.


Welcome to SNP Scotland , open and inclusive if you agree with the Nicola . If not you can **** off :crazy:


Funny how when the boot is on the other foot these same Unionists shout foul.

[marinello59]

Is there anything about the SNP you dont agree with, or think is wrong?

Some SNP members were allowed a wee rebellion against land reform at conference last year. It was carnage apparently. :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Some SNP members were allowed a wee rebellion against land reform at conference last year. It was carnage apparently. :greengrin

I remember when they changes their policy on NATO. Was hilarious, people literally crying.

[marinello59]

I'm afraid there are many No voters who simply do not want an inclusive Scotland and, funnily enough, these are the same ones offended by references to British Nationalism.

FFS I spend half of my time on here defending my position as a Scottish Nationalist against comparisons with everything from UKIP to Nazism.




Funny how when the boot is on the other foot these same Unionists shout foul.

I don't believe that there are any more voters on the No side than the Yes side who would not want an inclusive Scotland unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise. Take the constitutional question away and we pretty much agree on most things although it suits those who follow party lines to try and argue differently. I don't think for a second that those who take a different stance from me on Independence have any less of a desire to see a fairer society.

[marinello59]

I remember when they changes their policy on NATO. Was hilarious, people literally crying.

In that instance though they made the correct decision.

[allmodcons]

I don't believe that there are any more voters on the No side than the Yes side who would not want an inclusive Scotland unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise. Take the constitutional question away and we pretty much agree on most things although it suits those who follow party lines to try and argue differently. I don't think for a second that those who take a different stance from me on Independence have any less of a desire to see a fairer society.

I was talking about No voters (nothing else) and stand by what I said that there are many Unionists who do not want an inclusive Scotland (i.e. - Orange Order).

My point was that it appears OK for supporters of the Union to conflate my civic nationalism with Nazis but as soon as any reference to the extremes of Unionism are mentioned the toys are thrown from the pram.

[marinello59]

I was talking about No voters (nothing else) and stand by what I said that there are many Unionists who do not want an inclusive Scotland (i.e. - Orange Order).

My point was that it appears OK for supporters of the Union to conflate my civic nationalism with Nazis but as soon as any reference to the extremes of Unionism are mentioned the toys are thrown from the pram.

No, it's not OK. We have to be better than that though.
The Orange Order are a minority extremist group on the fringes of our society, certainly in the vast majority of Scotland they are. We have our own Independence supporting nutters as well, to suggest they are typical of any sides thinking is simply wrong.

[ronaldo7]

Is there anything about the SNP you dont agree with, or think is wrong?

What's that got to do with your comment re Mhairi Black and being anti "Catholics"?

However, to answer your question, I'm pretty pleased that today sees the Scottish Parliament take control of the Crown estate. We could be doing more on Land reform though, the Greens seem to be the party pushing this one. Higher taxes for the Rich, "in the future" would be another one.

Most of the things I'd like for an Independent Scotland are controlled by another country, so I'll have to put all my energies into achieving that.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

Didnt Mhari Black have some fairly anti-catholic tweets about nuns and priests discovered on her twitter feed when she was elected.

Agree about Fraser though, total hun welt. And im not even sure he is from the west. So we all know why he supports them...


I am really interested in this answer, maybe once a SNP leaflet was crumpled as it went through the letterbox?

And I'm rather interested in what SHB has to say on the accusation of Mhairi Black tweeting about catholics.

I wonder if he'll answer that?

What a rather childish comment John.:rolleyes:

[johnbc70]

And I'm rather interested in what SHB has to say on the accusation of Mhairi Black tweeting about catholics.

I wonder if he'll answer that?

What a rather childish comment John.:rolleyes:

A joke, well kind of...so what was it that you didn't like about the SNP then?

[ronaldo7]

A joke, well kind of...so what was it that you didn't like about the SNP then?

Post 1302 answers that, and don't bother giving up the day job for a gig at the Fringe.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Really? I'm surprised you and SHB are as sensitive in this regard. The Scottish Unionist Party has a long history of playing the "orange card". The Union in their title is the Irish one btw. They might be a little more subtle these days but with watp Fraser and Tomkins among their leading lights, it's definitely there.

The great Lab-> SNP shift from 2007 to 2015 has tailed off imo. We are now seeing further leakage from Lab to Tory as they try to out Brit each other. Only one winner there.

Thats fair comment JMS.

I suppose i just dont want our politics to descend into that sprt of thing.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What's that got to do with your comment re Mhairi Black and being anti "Catholics"?

However, to answer your question, I'm pretty pleased that today sees the Scottish Parliament take control of the Crown estate. We could be doing more on Land reform though, the Greens seem to be the party pushing this one. Higher taxes for the Rich, "in the future" would be another one.

Most of the things I'd like for an Independent Scotland are controlled by another country, so I'll have to put all my energies into achieving that.:aok:

Ok mate, thanks for answering.

What are these things you want to do that are controlled by another parliament? You do know the SNP have a lot of MPs.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And I'm rather interested in what SHB has to say on the accusation of Mhairi Black tweeting about catholics.

I wonder if he'll answer that?

What a rather childish comment John.:rolleyes:

Amswered below mate

I adked because it seems to me that black is cut from exactly the same cloth ad murdo fraser, but you defend het just because she is SNP.

Thats why i asked.

Happy to clarify further.

The anti-catholic point, well it is answered above.

As an aside, and im sure i will get shot down for this but i knoe it to be true. There are SNP supporters and staffers who regularly equated catholicism with labour, and so were quite liberal in their use of anti-catholic words, language amd sentiment.

And im fairly sure the tweets i accused Black of were real. I vant prove it because they were subsequently removed.

[northstandhibby]

http://www.investmentweek.co.uk/investment-week/news/3006760/moodys-warns-scotland-exit-could-leave-country-facing-junk-rating?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=johnstonpress-thescotsman

Financial fiscal ratings agency Moodys forecasting very tough times for an independent Scotland. I've read some very disturbing and eye popping attempts of how indy Scotland could run its economy on this thread but here is one of the utmost respected world fiscal ratings agencies telling it how it would be if we cut our-selves adrift from the UK.

'Junk rating status'

We're much stronger and safer with our devolved status within the UK.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Ok mate, thanks for answering.

What are these things you want to do that are controlled by another parliament? You do know the SNP have a lot of MPs.

You know the small things like Foreign policy and Defence, just to name two.

The bit in bold is rather amusing though. :greengrin I take it Arithmetic wasn't your strong suit at school.:wink:

[ronaldo7]

Amswered below mate

I adked because it seems to me that black is cut from exactly the same cloth ad murdo fraser, but you defend het just because she is SNP.

Thats why i asked.

Happy to clarify further.

The anti-catholic point, well it is answered above.

As an aside, and im sure i will get shot down for this but i knoe it to be true. There are SNP supporters and staffers who regularly equated catholicism with labour, and so were quite liberal in their use of anti-catholic words, language amd sentiment.

And im fairly sure the tweets i accused Black of were real. I vant prove it because they were subsequently removed.

You didn't really answer the point at all. You accused her of being anti catholic on a public forum, without the evidence to back up your accusations.

Not a good look mate. Katie Hopkins springs to mind.

The bit in bold has got to be an April fool.

[johnbc70]

http://www.investmentweek.co.uk/investment-week/news/3006760/moodys-warns-scotland-exit-could-leave-country-facing-junk-rating?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=johnstonpress-thescotsman

Financial fiscal ratings agency Moodys forecasting very tough times for an independent Scotland. I've read some very disturbing and eye popping attempts of how indy Scotland could run its economy on this thread but here is one of the utmost respected world fiscal ratings agencies telling it how it would be if we cut our-selves adrift from the UK.

'Junk rating status'

We're much stronger and safer with our devolved status within the UK.

glory glory

Scotland on a par with Guatemala!

[stoneyburn hibs]

Scotland on a par with Guatemala!

12th largest economy in the EU.
14th richest country in the world per capita.
43rd largest economy although only 5.4m median world size of population.
Top world export earning performance.
Positive balance of payments.
Strong hard currency earning performance.

Too wee , too poor.

[Jack]

http://www.investmentweek.co.uk/investment-week/news/3006760/moodys-warns-scotland-exit-could-leave-country-facing-junk-rating?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=johnstonpress-thescotsman

Financial fiscal ratings agency Moodys forecasting very tough times for an independent Scotland. I've read some very disturbing and eye popping attempts of how indy Scotland could run its economy on this thread but here is one of the utmost respected world fiscal ratings agencies telling it how it would be if we cut our-selves adrift from the UK.

'Junk rating status'

We're much stronger and safer with our devolved status within the UK.

glory glory

I'm not sure the scare tactics used in previous referenda will work this time round. Good try anyway.

No. They and every other political and economic adviser are forecasting doom and gloom for post Brexit UK. Wee Nikki played a blinder withdrawing Scottish resources from the negotiations.

Scotland outwith that maelstrom and probably within the EU would more than likely prosper on the back of a corrupt money laundering rUK.

The Abyss is waiting for you. Come on in.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You know the small things like Foreign policy and Defence, just to name two.

The bit in bold is rather amusing though. :greengrin I take it Arithmetic wasn't your strong suit at school.:wink:

Whats wrong with my arithmetic? Where do i even mention anything arithmetic?

Yeah ok, so nothing domestic then?

[northstandhibby]

I'm not sure the scare tactics used in previous referenda will work this time round. Good try anyway.

No. They and every other political and economic adviser are forecasting doom and gloom for post Brexit UK. Wee Nikki played a blinder withdrawing Scottish resources from the negotiations.

Scotland outwith that maelstrom and probably within the EU would more than likely prosper on the back of a corrupt money laundering rUK.

The Abyss is waiting for you. Come on in.

Moodys the world experts on fiscal affairs don't use scare tactics. They work on facts and figures and have an excellent reputation world-wide. I'm not scared of facing up to cold realities and truth. If we did become separated from the UK I would expect massive economic turbulence as a consequence. Please don't kid the good folk of Scotland on of a brigadoon type forecast as they deserve far better than that and would expect the truth not scaremongering or fantastical tales.

glory glory

[Jack]

We're now going to go into an hour and a half of fantastic Premier League action.

Whooppee. Scottish football on the BBC!

Oh!

Scottish football didn't get so much as a mention on our paid for UK channel.

Or did I miss it?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You didn't really answer the point at all. You accused her of being anti catholic on a public forum, without the evidence to back up your accusations.

Not a good look mate. Katie Hopkins springs to mind.

The bit in bold has got to be an April fool.

Why does it have to be an april fool, because you dont like it?

Its true, i assure you.

I accept your comment about black, i have no evidence so i cant say anything for certain.

But she is a hun though, do you accept that? In the same way that murdo fraser is a hun?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm not sure the scare tactics used in previous referenda will work this time round. Good try anyway.

No. They and every other political and economic adviser are forecasting doom and gloom for post Brexit UK. Wee Nikki played a blinder withdrawing Scottish resources from the negotiations.

Scotland outwith that maelstrom and probably within the EU would more than likely prosper on the back of a corrupt money laundering rUK.

The Abyss is waiting for you. Come on in.

What resources did 'wee Nicky' withdraw from the Brexit negotiations?

[Jack]

Moodys the world experts on fiscal affairs don't use scare tactics. They work on facts and figures and have an excellent reputation world-wide. I'm not scared of facing up to cold realities and truth. If we did become separated from the UK I would expect massive economic turbulence as a consequence. Please don't kid the good folk of Scotland on of a brigadoon type forecast as they deserve far better than that and would expect the truth not scaremongering or fantastical tales.

glory glory

Moodys said the last time we'd be neutral pending a rating that was more likely to be higher than rUK given the loss of Scottish oil - I can see the ironing going on there, lol. You and them if your link is genuine need to sort out your stories.

Fact is the pound, however sides it has is worth about the same as a thrupenny bit!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

We're now going to go into an hour and a half of fantastic Premier League action.

Whooppee. Scottish football on the BBC!

Oh!

Scottish football didn't get so much as a mention on our paid for UK channel.

Or did I miss it?


Is sportscene not on tomorrow likes?

And i listened to an entire afternoon of scottish fitba on the radio broadcast by the BBC, including live coveragr of match. You must have missed those mentions.

But dont let the facts get in the way of your grievance politics buddy.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Moodys said the last time we'd be neutral pending a rating that was more likely to be higher than rUK given the loss of Scottish oil - I can see the ironing going on there, lol. You and them if your link is genuine need to sort out your stories.

Fact is the pound, however sides it has is worth about the same as a thrupenny bit!

And you have the audacity to say i talk rubbish...

[northstandhibby]

Moodys said the last time we'd be neutral pending a rating that was more likely to be higher than rUK given the loss of Scottish oil - I can see the ironing going on there, lol. You and them if your link is genuine need to sort out your stories.

Fact is the pound, however sides it has is worth about the same as a thrupenny bit!

Still never heard or read a single outstanding reason for separating from the rest of our neighbours in the UK and your posts are doing zero to convince me the nationalists have a clue what they're doing other than seeking separation from our UK neighbours.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Why does it have to be an april fool, because you dont like it?

Its true, i assure you.

I accept your comment about black, i have no evidence so i cant say anything for certain.

But she is a hun though, do you accept that? In the same way that murdo fraser is a hun?

Deary me.

Do you ever do any research prior to coming on here with your "Knowledge"?

A few things you might want to read about her, prior to apologising that is:wink:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34208885/21-facts-about-mhairi-black-as-she-turns-21

Mon the Thistle.

[Jack]

The new £1 coin is a cheaper to produce version of what had.

Genuine question.

When will the pound sterling become so worthless the Bank of England decide coins are worth more as scrap value and just go for paper/plastic like Argentina?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Deary me.

Do you ever do any research prior to coming on here with your "Knowledge"?

A few things you might want to read about her, prior to apologising that is:wink:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34208885/21-facts-about-mhairi-black-as-she-turns-21

Mon the Thistle.

Ok, fair enough mate, i must have got that wrong. Hands up - apologies to her and you.

[ronaldo7]

Ok, fair enough mate, i must have got that wrong. Hands up - apologies to her and you.

Accepted.:aok:

[Jack]

Is sportscene not on tomorrow likes?

And i listened to an entire afternoon of scottish fitba on the radio broadcast by the BBC, including live coveragr of match. You must have missed those mentions.

But dont let the facts get in the way of your grievance politics buddy.

Why not tonight?

Why did we get the English game on council telly last week? Are Scotland games not worthy enough to broadcast to our nation on free to view as are our neighbours?

Why do we get **** English cup games when there's Scottish games going on?

[Jack]

And you have the audacity to say i talk rubbish...

Oh you do and you continue to do so.

[northstandhibby]

Deary me.

Do you ever do any research prior to coming on here with your "Knowledge"?

A few things you might want to read about her, prior to apologising that is:wink:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34208885/21-facts-about-mhairi-black-as-she-turns-21

Mon the Thistle.

Is this the Chic Young Mon the Buddies euphemism?

:wink:



glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Is this the Chic Young Mon the Buddies euphemism?

:wink:



glory glory

Partick fans say Mon the Jags.:wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Why not tonight?

Why did we get the English game on council telly last week? Are Scotland games not worthy enough to broadcast to our nation on free to view as are our neighbours?

Why do we get **** English cup games when there's Scottish games going on?

In order of your questions...

Because whoever is in charge of scheduling has deemed, presumably with some info to back them up, that viewimg figures would be better for MOTD on sat night. And probablu also because usually one of the old firm plays on a sunday, amd we all know how the worls revolves around them.

Because STV / ITV showed it. Presumably they paid most to the English FA.

The Scottish FA chose to sell rights to Sky. Probably dor a pitrance given their track record.

Cup games, see above although the BBC do broadcast cup games i think.

Not sure what the conspiracy is here? Bit im prob just talking rubbish.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Oh you do and you continue to do so.

Ha ha, ok buddy.

If im proved wrong, ill admit it. I just give my opinion, if you dont like it, dont read it. Simples.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Accepted.:aok:

Cheers, good man!

[Jack]

Still never heard or read a single outstanding reason for separating from the rest of our neighbours in the UK and your posts are doing zero to convince me the nationalists have a clue what they're doing other than seeking separation from our UK neighbours.

glory glory

You're a lost cause.

Leading economists forecasting doom and gloom, the leading Brexiteers have scurried back under their stones. Oh ****! You and your ilk are all of a sudden on your own and floundering.

You have my sympathies as you attempt to defend the indefensible.

With a pro EU Tory scapegoat leader taking forward the anti EU Brexit negotiations under the ever watchful eye of the most ignorant, intransigent, clueless Tory right wing undermining the charge what could possibly go wrong?

I look forward to your future posts ... as an alternative to open mike night at the comedy club.

[Jack]

Ha ha, ok buddy.

If im proved wrong, ill admit it. I just give my opinion, if you dont like it, dont read it. Simples.

Your opinion, because let's face it it's never sourced fact, is always welcome as part of the double act.

Amateur night was never as good without your typos. Previous excuses and continued fat finger **** ups only add to the quality of your contribution.

[northstandhibby]

You're a lost cause.

Leading economists forecasting doom and gloom, the leading Brexiteers have scurried back under their stones. Oh ****! You and your ilk are all of a sudden on your own and floundering.

You have my sympathies as you attempt to defend the indefensible.

With a pro EU Tory scapegoat leader taking forward the anti EU Brexit negotiations under the ever watchful eye of the most ignorant, intransigent, clueless Tory right wing undermining the charge what could possibly go wrong?

I look forward to your future posts ... as an alternative to open mike night at the comedy club.

Still no outstanding reason for separating from our nearest island neighbours? Moodys are expert forecasters on world fiscal affairs. Why aren't nationalists like yourself able to put up good logical reasons for separating instead of ranting against folk like myself who scrutinise the bigger picture in a realistic manner instead of sentiment?

glory glory

[Jack]

In order of your questions...

Because whoever is in charge of scheduling has deemed, presumably with some info to back them up, that viewimg figures would be better for MOTD on sat night. And probablu also because usually one of the old firm plays on a sunday, amd we all know how the worls revolves around them.

Because STV / ITV showed it. Presumably they paid most to the English FA.

The Scottish FA chose to sell rights to Sky. Probably dor a pitrance given their track record.

Cup games, see above although the BBC do broadcast cup games i think.

Not sure what the conspiracy is here? Bit im prob just talking rubbish.

Or to cut a long story short a national broadcaster selling their nation short.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Your opinion, because let's face it it's never sourced fact, is always welcome as part of the double act.

Amateur night was never as good without your typos. Previous excuses and continued fat finger **** ups only add to the quality of your contribution.

Yeah, a football club's alternative messageboatd - where Jack gets his facts, ha ha!!

Of course it's my opinion, just as your posts are yours. Thats how a messageboard works mate!

You dont offer anything, you rubbish other people then spout some tired old cliches about the NHS.

Lile i said, stopped reading me, or use the ignore button. Your contributions wont be missed buddy.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Or to cut a long story short a national broadcaster selling their nation short.

Just tried to answer your questions buddy.

The fact that none of the amswers fit with your preconceptions obviously doesnt suit you.

Just keep blaming the beeb (or thosebig bad sassenachs) for rhe SPFLs (bad) decisions, im sure your misdirected rage will convince loads of folk to vote for indy second time around ....!!!

[McD]

Or to cut a long story short a national broadcaster selling their nation short.


Or, the SFA taking the deal they wanted.

if sky, itv, or whomever else offer more money to any of the FA's, not much the Beeb can do about it. Without license fees being raised, at which point you'd be railing at the UK government for doing that.


I've heard many arguments for independence, that the BBC didn't show the Scotland game or Sportscene exactly when you wanted must be the most bizarre by far.

Also, perhaps you should ask BBC Scotland why they chose to broadcast Match of the Day? The key word there is Scotland. They control the scheduling in this country.

[ronaldo7]

Top Labour MEP thinks a bespoke deal for Scotland could have been done, and also thinks Scotland will vote for Independence when we vote again.

https://t.co/sU9d8KfbCc

[ronaldo7]

Or, the SFA taking the deal they wanted.

if sky, itv, or whomever else offer more money to any of the FA's, not much the Beeb can do about it. Without license fees being raised, at which point you'd be railing at the UK government for doing that.


I've heard many arguments for independence, that the BBC didn't show the Scotland game or Sportscene exactly when you wanted must be the most bizarre by far.

Also, perhaps you should ask BBC Scotland why they chose to broadcast Match of the Day? The key word there is Scotland. They control the scheduling in this country.

Maybe if we spent the license fee money raised in Scotland, actually in Scotland, we'd get a better deal, and would be able to support local jobs, and to enable BBC Scotland to pay more for Scottish football. Win, win.

The BBC's 2015/16 accounts showed £320m was raised from the licence fee in Scotland. Of that, £176.5m was spent on local content and Scottish-made BBC network output, 55% of the total raised.

This was a sharp decline from the £203m spend the previous year, which was 63% of the £323m collected. The funds not spent locally go towards BBC programmes developed elsewhere and aired across the UK.

In comparison, 95% of licence fee funds raised in Wales in 2015/16 were spent in Wales - including on network-wide programmes like Doctor Who, Casualty and Crimewatch - with the figure for Northern Ireland standing at 74%.

[McD]

Maybe if we spent the license fee money raised in Scotland, actually in Scotland, we'd get a better deal, and would be able to support local jobs, and to enable BBC Scotland to pay more for Scottish football. Win, win.

The BBC's 2015/16 accounts showed £320m was raised from the licence fee in Scotland. Of that, £176.5m was spent on local content and Scottish-made BBC network output, 55% of the total raised.

This was a sharp decline from the £203m spend the previous year, which was 63% of the £323m collected. The funds not spent locally go towards BBC programmes developed elsewhere and aired across the UK.

In comparison, 95% of licence fee funds raised in Wales in 2015/16 were spent in Wales - including on network-wide programmes like Doctor Who, Casualty and Crimewatch - with the figure for Northern Ireland standing at 74%.


A much more sensible argument :aok:

[RyeSloan]

The new £1 coin is a cheaper to produce version of what had.

Genuine question.

When will the pound sterling become so worthless the Bank of England decide coins are worth more as scrap value and just go for paper/plastic like Argentina?

The face value of coins is not directly related to the cost of producing them.

And trying to link sterling to the what has happened to the Argentinian peso is just ridiculous.

[sleeping giant]

The face value of coins is not directly related to the cost of producing them.

And trying to link sterling to the what has happened to the Argentinian peso is just ridiculous.

What's ridiculous ?

His question ?

[RyeSloan]

What's ridiculous ?

His question ?

Comparing the devaluation of a currency like Sterling to the basket case that is the Argentine Peso.

I suppose he could be wanting to discuss the removal of all cash in economies and what that might mean in the long run. For example the additional opportunity it gives for governments to control people's spending and continue with dangerous experiments like negative interest rates but I'm guessing not as it's hardly relevant to the Op.

[Moulin Yarns]

"It's not fair that The Scottish people are being asked to make a decision before they know the outcome of our naval war with Spain."

[Glory Lurker]

"It's not fair that The Scottish people are being asked to make a decision before they know the outcome of our naval war with Spain."

:agree: How many fluid ounces in a galleon?

[Slavoj Zizek]

I'll just leave this list here of all the things that were achieved under Dewar, Wallace, McConnell and McLeish

Abolition of tuition fees
Free bus passes
Creation of the National Parks in Scotland
Airdrie-Bathgate Railway
Borders Railway
Free Personal Care for the Elderly
Schools for the Future building program
Smoking Ban in public places
Local Government electoral reform to STV
Major anti-sectarian programs invested in
Civil partnerships
Abolition of Section 2A (section 28)
Record investment in Scottish Health and Education
Child poverty to its lowest levels in Scotland since the 1980s
The Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games Bid
A series of vital and transformative Land Reform Acts which modernised Scots law and handed powers to communities to buy their own lands off absentee Land Owners.

Pretty major achievements there. LabourBaaaaaaad. :rolleyes: Where's the equivalent SNP list? #dayjob

[CropleyWasGod]

I'll just leave this list here of all the things that were achieved under Dewar, Wallace, McConnell and McLeish

Abolition of tuition fees
Free bus passes
Creation of the National Parks in Scotland
Airdrie-Bathgate Railway
Borders Railway
Free Personal Care for the Elderly
Schools for the Future building program
Smoking Ban in public places
Local Government electoral reform to STV
Major anti-sectarian programs invested in
Civil partnerships
Abolition of Section 2A (section 28)
Record investment in Scottish Health and Education
Child poverty to its lowest levels in Scotland since the 1980s
The Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games Bid
A series of vital and transformative Land Reform Acts which modernised Scots law and handed powers to communities to buy their own lands off absentee Land Owners.

Pretty major achievements there. LabourBaaaaaaad. :rolleyes: Where's the equivalent SNP list? #dayjob
So why did they lose office ?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[northstandhibby]

I'll just leave this list here of all the things that were achieved under Dewar, Wallace, McConnell and McLeish

Abolition of tuition fees
Free bus passes
Creation of the National Parks in Scotland
Airdrie-Bathgate Railway
Borders Railway
Free Personal Care for the Elderly
Schools for the Future building program
Smoking Ban in public places
Local Government electoral reform to STV
Major anti-sectarian programs invested in
Civil partnerships
Abolition of Section 2A (section 28)
Record investment in Scottish Health and Education
Child poverty to its lowest levels in Scotland since the 1980s
The Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games Bid
A series of vital and transformative Land Reform Acts which modernised Scots law and handed powers to communities to buy their own lands off absentee Land Owners.

Pretty major achievements there. LabourBaaaaaaad. :rolleyes: Where's the equivalent SNP list? #dayjob

Beyond excellent that list. Labour fought very hard for Scotland when they were in office here. Kezia appears to be holding her own and stepping up. We need a strong Labour party.

glory glory

[DaveF]

I'll just leave this list here of all the things that were achieved under Dewar, Wallace, McConnell and McLeish

Abolition of tuition fees
Free bus passes
Creation of the National Parks in Scotland
Airdrie-Bathgate Railway
Borders Railway
Free Personal Care for the Elderly
Schools for the Future building program
Smoking Ban in public places
Local Government electoral reform to STV
Major anti-sectarian programs invested in
Civil partnerships
Abolition of Section 2A (section 28)
Record investment in Scottish Health and Education
Child poverty to its lowest levels in Scotland since the 1980s
The Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games Bid
A series of vital and transformative Land Reform Acts which modernised Scots law and handed powers to communities to buy their own lands off absentee Land Owners.

Pretty major achievements there. LabourBaaaaaaad. :rolleyes: Where's the equivalent SNP list? #dayjob

Was that the one where a whole load of them were built on the cheap and had to have major repair work when a couple of walls actually fell down a couple of years back? I've no idea, so genuinely asking.

[ronaldo7]

I'll just leave this list here of all the things that were achieved under Dewar, Wallace, McConnell and McLeish

Abolition of tuition fees
Free bus passes
Creation of the National Parks in Scotland
Airdrie-Bathgate Railway
Borders Railway
Free Personal Care for the Elderly
Schools for the Future building program
Smoking Ban in public places
Local Government electoral reform to STV
Major anti-sectarian programs invested in
Civil partnerships
Abolition of Section 2A (section 28)
Record investment in Scottish Health and Education
Child poverty to its lowest levels in Scotland since the 1980s
The Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games Bid
A series of vital and transformative Land Reform Acts which modernised Scots law and handed powers to communities to buy their own lands off absentee Land Owners.

Pretty major achievements there. LabourBaaaaaaad. :rolleyes: Where's the equivalent SNP list? #dayjob

I know it's wiki, but you get a better picture of who "actually" started, and then delivered the Borders Railway here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_Railway

In 1992, Borders architect Simon Longland conducted a motorbike survey of the route which led him to set up the company Borders Transport Futures to evaluate the possibility of reopening

The first moves came in 1999 when the Scottish Parliament supported a motion by Christine Grahame MSP which called for the reinstatement of the line as a means of reversing the economic decline of the Borders region

[Mon Dieu4]

Beyond excellent that list. Labour fought very hard for Scotland when they were in office here. Kezia appears to be holding her own and stepping up. We need a strong Labour party.

glory glory

:faf::faf:Are you serious? Everybody bar yourself seems to realise that labour took the Scots vote for granted and where they find themselves now is entirely their own fault, I had a chat with my labour candidate before the last election, really nice guy and had a lot of time for him, discussed our views on Trident, he all but told me that he shared my views but would still vote for it all the same

[Glory Lurker]

I'll just leave this list here of all the things that were achieved under Dewar, Wallace, McConnell and McLeish

Abolition of tuition fees. FREE HIGHER EDUCATION DELIVERED BY THE SNP
Free bus passes. FINE. NEEDING FIXED NOW AS OPEN TO ABUSE
Creation of the National Parks in Scotland. PLANNING SYSTEM CONSISTENTLY MODERNISED SINCE 2007
Airdrie-Bathgate Railway. CONTINUED IMPROVEMENTS IN RAILWAY NETWORK
Borders Railway. CONTINUED IMPROVEMENTS IN RAILWAY NETWORK
Free Personal Care for the Elderly. A NOBLE SCHEME. SADLY TAX RISES WILL BE NEEDED TO DELIVER
Schools for the Future building program.
Smoking Ban in public places. LIKE THIS ONE.
Local Government electoral reform to STV. UNDER-16S ENFRANCHISED WHERE WITHIN COMPETENCE
Major anti-sectarian programs invested in. CONTINUES UNDER SNP
Civil partnerships. GAY MARRIAGE
Abolition of Section 2A (section 28). GAY MARRIAGE
Record investment in Scottish Health and Education. FIGURES, PLEASE
Child poverty to its lowest levels in Scotland since the 1980s. FIGURES, PLEASE
The Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games Bid. THE COMMONWEALTH GAMES DELIVERED
A series of vital and transformative Land Reform Acts which modernised Scots law and handed powers to communities to buy their own lands off absentee Land Owners. VERY LOW LEVEL OF SUCCESSFUL SCHEMES. SCHEME EXTENDED IN TO URBAN AREAS AND RIGHT TO BUY LOCAL GOVT NON-RESIDENTIAL STOCK.

Thanks for the trams shambles.




Pretty major achievements there. LabourBaaaaaaad. :rolleyes: Where's the equivalent SNP list? #dayjob. Off top of my head, in addition to stuff above, the Queensferry Crossing, dualling of A9, abolition of right to buy, huge increase in renewables, purchase of shipyard in Glasgow (sorry, can't remember the name), purchase of Prestwick, completion of M8, intangible benefit of Scotland being far more in the world media's eye.

[northstandhibby]

:faf::faf:Are you serious? Everybody bar yourself seems to realise that labour took the Scots vote for granted and where they find themselves now is entirely their own fault, I had a chat with my labour candidate before the last election, really nice guy and had a lot of time for him, discussed our views on Trident, he all but told me that he shared my views but would still vote for it all the same

Seriously yes I think we need a strong Labour party taking on the tories and Nationalism's not guaranteed to ever actually occur as yet.

glory glory

[Hibrandenburg]

. Off top of my head, in addition to stuff above, the Queensferry Crossing, dualling of A9, abolition of right to buy, huge increase in renewables, purchase of shipyard in Glasgow (sorry, can't remember the name), purchase of Prestwick, completion of M8, intangible benefit of Scotland being far more in the world




Marriage and civil partnership act 2014

[Glory Lurker]

Marriage and civil partnership act 2014

Yeah, got that in the stuff I've mentioned in blocks in the quote itself. Nightmare trying to reply within the quote in bold.

[Mon Dieu4]

Seriously yes I think we need a strong Labour party taking on the tories and Nationalism's not guaranteed to ever actually occur as yet.

glory glory

Of course we need one, but we've not had it in years and the trust they have lost will take a generation to get back, Labour supporters in Scotland were happy when we were basically a One party state under them for so long and can't see the irony when they whinge about it now with the SNP

[northstandhibby]

Of course we need one, but we've not had it in years and the trust they have lost will take a generation to get back, Labour supporters in Scotland were happy when we were basically a One party state under them for so long and can't see the irony when they whinge about it now with the SNP

You used hilarious emojis at my comments in relation to needing a strong Labour party yet here you are now agreeing we of course need one. It's fairly obvious they will need time to re-build and get rid of Jeremy and replace him with someone of stature and charisma if they are ever to get back to a credible party status, albeit I think here in Scotland Kezia is doing a fine job of holding her own.

glory glory

[Mon Dieu4]

You used hilarious emojis at my comments in relation to needing a strong Labour party yet here you are now agreeing we of course need one. It's fairly obvious they will need time to re-build and get rid of Jeremy and replace him with someone of stature and charisma if they are ever to get back to a credible party status, albeit I think here in Scotland Kezia is doing a fine job of holding her own.

glory glory

I used "hilarious emojis" at the thought that the Labour fought hard for Scotland not that we need a strong Labour Party, they went kaput in Scotland long before 90% of us even knew who Corbin was, that's probably the difference, I'd rather see a Scottish Labour Party that makes its own mind up instead of being told what to do from London

[ronaldo7]

#Dayjob

https://t.co/Y8VXTUXMNe

https://t.co/dnungceMtY

[northstandhibby]

I used "hilarious emojis" at the thought that the Labour fought hard for Scotland not that we need a strong Labour Party, they went kaput in Scotland long before 90% of us even knew who Corbin was, that's probably the difference, I'd rather see a Scottish Labour Party that makes its own mind up instead of being told what to do from London

There's a vast number of reasons (too many to list) why Labour have tumbled not just in Scotland but UK wide over the last decade or so but anything can happen in politics and there's no reason to think they won't re-emerge. However to do so they must make up their minds soon to replace Jeremy with someone/anyone that can appeal once again to a much wider section of voters.

glory glory

[Hibrandenburg]

There's a vast number of reasons (too many to list) why Labour have tumbled not just in Scotland but UK wide over the last decade or so but anything can happen in politics and there's no reason to think they won't re-emerge. However to do so they must make up their minds soon to replace Jeremy with someone/anyone that can appeal once again to a much wider section of voters.

glory glory

Some of those reasons are absolutely unforgivable though.

[Jack]

I'll just leave this list here of all the things that were achieved under Dewar, Wallace, McConnell and McLeish

Abolition of tuition fees
Free bus passes
Creation of the National Parks in Scotland
Airdrie-Bathgate Railway
Borders Railway
Free Personal Care for the Elderly
Schools for the Future building program
Smoking Ban in public places
Local Government electoral reform to STV
Major anti-sectarian programs invested in
Civil partnerships
Abolition of Section 2A (section 28)
Record investment in Scottish Health and Education
Child poverty to its lowest levels in Scotland since the 1980s
The Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games Bid
A series of vital and transformative Land Reform Acts which modernised Scots law and handed powers to communities to buy their own lands off absentee Land Owners.

Pretty major achievements there. LabourBaaaaaaad. :rolleyes: Where's the equivalent SNP list? #dayjob

I've never carried a card for any party.

Labour were very good. I suspect I was one of millions who voted Labour historically. Here's Labour, beat that if you want my vote, nobody did.

When they looked after the people who voted for them they were unbeatable. Dugs with rosettes and all that! But then ...

I think any party that stood on a platform, shoulder to shoulder, with the Torys in Scotland was in for a tanking here. I think much of that rubbed off with the knowledgeable Labour voters down south. Along with their other issues the whole Labour party bombed.

Yeah. It's a memorable list. There are so many admirable policies Labour introduced and that became law in the past. Nye Bevan, Barbra Castle and many others must be spinning in their graves at what Labour have become.

Now entwined with the worst, the furthest right the Torys have ever been in any living persons lifetime even as a Labour sympathetic voter it makes me sick.

With regard to Scottish independence, even though lots of their members seem to want it, they're unyielding, they don't even allow the debate!

FFS even Margaret Thatcher said if there was ever a majority of Scottish MPs in Westminster, over other Scottish MPs, then Scotland should be given the right to vote for self determination. Since the last referendum that has been delivered ... and then some.

If Labour got off their well paid Westminster knees I'm sure there would be a welcome for them in Scotland.

I'm the meantime they're in with the worst of pig sucklers. [sic]

[allmodcons]

I'll just leave this list here of all the things that were achieved under Dewar, Wallace, McConnell and McLeish

Abolition of tuition fees
Free bus passes
Creation of the National Parks in Scotland
Airdrie-Bathgate Railway
Borders Railway
Free Personal Care for the Elderly
Schools for the Future building program
Smoking Ban in public places
Local Government electoral reform to STV
Major anti-sectarian programs invested in
Civil partnerships
Abolition of Section 2A (section 28)
Record investment in Scottish Health and Education
Child poverty to its lowest levels in Scotland since the 1980s
The Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games Bid
A series of vital and transformative Land Reform Acts which modernised Scots law and handed powers to communities to buy their own lands off absentee Land Owners.

Pretty major achievements there. LabourBaaaaaaad. :rolleyes: Where's the equivalent SNP list? #dayjob

Here is the SNP list. This is them getting on with the day job. Only last May these achievements helped the SNP secure 47% of first preference votes at the Scottish Election.

https://www.snp.org/record

[Hibrandenburg]

I've never carried a card for any party.

Labour were very good. I suspect I was one of millions who voted Labour historically. Here's Labour, beat that if you want my vote, nobody did.

When they looked after the people who voted for them they were unbeatable. Dugs with rosettes and all that! But then ...

I think any party that stood on a platform, shoulder to shoulder, with the Torys in Scotland was in for a tanking here. I think much of that rubbed off with the knowledgeable Labour voters down south. Along with their other issues the whole Labour party bombed.

Yeah. It's a memorable list. There are so many admirable policies Labour introduced and that became law in the past. Nye Bevan, Barbra Castle and many others must be spinning in their graves at what Labour have become.

Now entwined with the worst, the furthest right the Torys have ever been in any living persons lifetime even as a Labour sympathetic voter it makes me sick.

With regard to Scottish independence, even though lots of their members seem to want it, they're unyielding, they don't even allow the debate!

FFS even Margaret Thatcher said if there was ever a majority of Scottish MPs in Westminster, over other Scottish MPs, then Scotland should be given the right to vote for self determination. Since the last referendum that has been delivered ... and then some.

If Labour got off their well paid Westminster knees I'm sure there would be a welcome for them in Scotland.

I'm the meantime they're in with the worst of pig sucklers. [sic]

Excellent post.

[Just Alf]

You know, what some folks seem to forget, a SNP voter just now can easily be one purely for "self determination" reasons.

In an independent Scotland scenario many will move to the other parties, thinking on it probably 80% of my family/friends/colleagues fall into.that category..... as do I



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[northstandhibby]

Some of those reasons are absolutely unforgivable though.

No you're right it will be difficult but I don't think its insurmountable however they desperately need to be sourcing a leader of some magnitude who can re-convince the ordinary folk Labour are a credible option to the tories.

glory glory

[Jack]

You know, what some folks seem to forget, a SNP voter just now can easily be one purely for "self determination" reasons.

In an independent Scotland scenario many will move to the other parties, thinking on it probably 80% of my famy/friends/colleagues fall into.that category..... as do I



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

After independence there's no reason for the SNP to exist!

I think that's one of the things that excites me most about independence. We have quality MPs and MSPs in all parties, we always have had.

How will they form when what is at stake is Scotland and it's people?

I'm sure there will be a minority that like Jim Leighton couldn't get used to the 'new' goalkeeper rules but the others embraced it and revel in the ... F R E E D O M! lol

[heretoday]

After independence there's no reason for the SNP to exist!

I think that's one of the things that excites me most about independence. We have quality MPs and MSPs in all parties, we always have had.

How will they form when what is at stake is Scotland and it's people?

I'm sure there will be a minority that like Jim Leighton couldn't get used to the 'new' goalkeeper rules but the others embraced it and revel in the ... F R E E D O M! lol
So after independence the SNP will down flags and go into different corners according to their individual beliefs, job done?

[Hibrandenburg]

So after independence the SNP will down flags and go into different corners according to their individual beliefs, job done?

After an initial period of transition I'd imagine so.

[ronaldo7]

. Off top of my head, in addition to stuff above, the Queensferry Crossing, dualling of A9, abolition of right to buy, huge increase in renewables, purchase of shipyard in Glasgow (sorry, can't remember the name), purchase of Prestwick, completion of M8, intangible benefit of Scotland being far more in the world media's eye.



None more so than the First Minister of our country, invited to speak at the United Nations on Friday.

After signing climate change pacts, and securing more jobs for Scotland. #dayjob

[PeeJay]

So after independence the SNP will down flags and go into different corners according to their individual beliefs, job done?

You mean people don't know, no-one has said? Personally, I would imagine the party would simply change its name slightly and do everything it can to remain in power or to take power ... I'd put money on it.

What is "job done" supposed to mean anyway - as with UKIP and Brexit? Is that the story here with the SNP and independence: walk away afterwards ... let somebody else fix the mess?
Do you really think the SNP power brokers will simply "give up" power once "independence" is achieved and start again in other parties? Seems unlikely to me... :confused:

[Jack]

You mean people don't know, no-one has said? Personally, I would imagine the party would simply change its name slightly and do everything it can to remain in power or to take power ... I'd put money on it.

What is "job done" supposed to mean anyway - as with UKIP and Brexit? Is that the story here with the SNP and independence: walk away afterwards ... let somebody else fix the mess?
Do you really think the SNP power brokers will simply "give up" power once "independence" is achieved and start again in other parties? Seems unlikely to me... :confused:



I don't think it will quite be like UKIP, the SNP do have some sort of plan!

I do see during the first couple of terms, assuming they are elected, that the broad brush representation they have within their ranks will naturally flow to other parties.

It's just a possibility.

[Just Alf]

You mean people don't know, no-one has said? Personally, I would imagine the party would simply change its name slightly and do everything it can to remain in power or to take power ... I'd put money on it.

What is "job done" supposed to mean anyway - as with UKIP and Brexit? Is that the story here with the SNP and independence: walk away afterwards ... let somebody else fix the mess?
Do you really think the SNP power brokers will simply "give up" power once "independence" is achieved and start again in other parties? Seems unlikely to me... :confused:



I'd put money on your 1st paragraph as well, there might be some migration to other parties although in the scheme of things that's neither here nor there, key will be how the voters react.

The parliment is designed to largely prevent one party domination and if it wasn't for the independence issue then it seems to work that way which "should" lead to a more consensus type of politics when that issue is removed.

Edit: more for the brexit thread but it's related, that last bit... If Westminster goes the hard brexit route then they are definitely not governing for ALL the people, almost half wanted to stay, so the closest outcome to the referendum result would be a soft exit.

[PeeJay]

I don't think it will quite be like UKIP, the SNP do have some sort of plan!

I do see during the first couple of terms, assuming they are elected, that the broad brush representation they have within their ranks will naturally flow to other parties.

It's just a possibility.


Some sort of plan: can't help wondering what sort of some sort of plan that would be: shouldn't this be known beforehand?

[easty]

Some sort of plan: can't help wondering what sort of some sort of plan that would be: shouldn't this be known beforehand?



Why? So folk can complain that they're planning for after independence, when they've not even won a referendum yet?

[PeeJay]

Why? So folk can complain that they're planning for after independence, when they've not even won a referendum yet?

No, so that people can know in advance what the consequences of voting for independence entail?

[easty]

No, so that people can know in advance what the consequences of voting for independence entail?

The white paper...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The white paper...

The White Paper was a mixed bag. A lot of it was nonsense.

What would happen to the SNP post indy is a fascinating question IMO.

In theory they should just melt away as their coalition of different perspectives etc gravitate towards their more natural amd established homes.

But i cant think of a political party that has voluntary closed itself down. Lot of power amd interests lie within that party now, so i suspect they would continue, and would evolve into something slightly different, probablu the main left of centre party ( cant see labour ever recovering)

[PeeJay]

The white paper...

OK .. the "white paper" doesn't exist yet (?), so it's fair enough to wonder in advance whether it will state, e.g. whether the SNP will disband or cease to exist on day/week/month/year X of independence and who takes over? Seem reasonable to ask as we don't want another debacle such as Brexit to occur do we ...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

OK .. the "white paper" doesn't exist yet (?), so it's fair enough to wonder in advance whether it will state, e.g. whether the SNP will disband or cease to exist on day/week/month/year X of independence and who takes over? Seem reasonable to ask as we don't want another debacle such as Brexit to occur do we ...

Id imagine that after the separation agreement negotiation period, a general electiob would be held to elect our first indy parliament.

The results of that would then determine which govt governed post indy Scotland.

Would the SNP stand in such an election?

Also, would the Scottish Tories continue as branch office or wpuld they morph into a new roight of centre Scottish party (as Murdo Fraser proposed a few years back?)

A lot of SNP staffers, poloticians and suppprtrs would be tempted by such a party...

[Just Alf]

Id imagine that after the separation agreement negotiation period, a general electiob would be held to elect our first indy parliament.

The results of that would then determine which govt governed post indy Scotland.

Would the SNP stand in such an election?

Also, would the Scottish Tories continue as branch office or wpuld they morph into a new roight of centre Scottish party (as Murdo Fraser proposed a few years back?)

A lot of SNP staffers, poloticians and suppprtrs would be tempted by such a party...

Agree with all of that, I also think the SNP will win the 1st election, a sort of honeymoon period thing..... After that though I can see things changing with the other parties getting more votes etc.




Edit: aargh! I've just realised I've agreed with you! Where's that delete button! :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

The white paper...

An independent non-party look at options for the White Paper.

http://allofusfirst.org/tasks/render/file/?fileID=CF5DF30F-C3E8-500D-FDDFBE8CE6F84433

[allmodcons]

Id imagine that after the separation agreement negotiation period, a general electiob would be held to elect our first indy parliament.

The results of that would then determine which govt governed post indy Scotland.

Would the SNP stand in such an election?

Also, would the Scottish Tories continue as branch office or wpuld they morph into a new roight of centre Scottish party (as Murdo Fraser proposed a few years back?)

A lot of SNP staffers, poloticians and suppprtrs would be tempted by such a party...

Pure guff with nothing to back it up.

Name me one current SNP Politician who would want stand on a right wing platform with Murdo Fraser and his ilk.

[Moulin Yarns]

Name me one current SNP Politician who wouldn't want to stand on Murdo Fraser and his ilk.

FTFY :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Pure guff with nothing to back it up.

Name me one current SNP Politician who would want stand on a right wing platform with Murdo Fraser and his ilk.

A centre right platform? I think quite a few. Their heartlands are conservative, rural constituencies.

I know of a couple that hold those views, but i wont out them here. I know, and have known staffers who hold such views.

But being logical amd looking at constituencies, i would people like roseanna cunningham, john swinney, alasdair allan, stewart stevenson, Bruce Crawford. The rural aberdeenshire constituencies etc. I dont know their councillors as well, but there will be some amd i know of one for sure, here in Edinburgh.

As for supporters, its not much of a leap that traditional, rural voters would vote that way. The SNP atttact the nationalist vote, there aren't many countries in the world whete the nationalist vote ismt picked up by a right of centre party. Alex Massie did a brilliant lecture about this a few years back, outlining the similarities between the SNP amd the tories.

Consider that they spent most of their existence as a right of centre party (tartan tories anyone?) or at least a centerist party.

And that during their first minority govt, they teamed up with the tories regularly to pass their legislation, with generally very little friction.

Do you really not think there would be any?

I get that you might disagree, but to say there is nothing backing it up seems naive.

[allmodcons]

FTFY :greengrin

How do you even do that?

[steakbake]

One or two might be LibDems in an alternate reality. Centrists like Fergus Ewing and Richard Lochhead but Tories? No, I don't think so at all.

Otherwise, Kezia looks pretty comfortable parroting Ruth's lines...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Name one MSP or MP?

Tartan Tories (FFS).

Ive expanded my answer above. Im not going to start naming names.

So were they not called the tartan tories? Can you engage with any of the other points i raise?

Are you really saying that there is no chance?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

One or two might be LibDems in an alternate reality. Centrists like Fergus Ewing and Richard Lochhead but Tories? No, I don't think so at all.

Otherwise, Kezia looks pretty comfortable parroting Ruth's lines...

Fergus Ewing, forgot about him too. I would say he would be on the centre right of an indy scotland.

I said all this in the (hypothetical) context of a new, indy Scotland, with a new right of centre party, NOT the tories as they currently exist.

I cant believe people find this so contentious, it seems quite obvious.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Name one MSP or MP?

Tartan Tories (FFS).

Was Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh not a member of the tories, amd did she not stand as a candidate for them? Or was that Labour?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Was Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh not a member of the tories, amd did she not stand as a candidate for them? Or was that Labour?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmina_Ahmed-Sheikh

Turns out i am naming names, but i dont think im breaking any confidences here!

[makaveli1875]

any word on a date for the referendum yet ?

[allmodcons]

Ive expanded my answer above. Im not going to start naming names.

So were they not called the tartan tories? Can you engage with any of the other points i raise?

Are you really saying that there is no chance?

So because the Labour Party called the SNP Tartan Tories 40 years ago you think it's OK to spout that line now.

The SNP are predominantly a slight left of centre social democratic party.

Steakbake is correct when he says there are some within the SNP who might align themselves with a Centrist Party like the Lib Dems.

The people you reference as potential 'Tartan Tories' is just laughable. Where's the proof? IMO John Swinney would smack you for suggesting he's a right wing politician.

[allmodcons]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmina_Ahmed-Sheikh

Turns out i am naming names, but i dont think im breaking any confidences here!

I'm not a huge fan of Tasmina, but are suggesting now that nobody is allowed to change their political views.

I asked you on another thread to try looking beyond your own front door. Maybe Tasmina did just that.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So because the Labour Party called the SNP Tartan Tories 40 years ago you think it's OK to spout that line now.

The SNP are predominantly a slight left of centre social democratic party.

Steakbake is correct when he says there are some within the SNP who might align themselves with a Centrist Party like the Lib Dems.

The people you reference as potential 'Tartan Tories' is just laughable. Where's the proof? IMO John Swinney would smack you for suggesting he's a right wing politician.

Not right-wing, right of centre
You knownin the same way you say the nats are left of centre, not left wing??

I am happy to debate the point, but i have offered lots of reasons that i have come to that conclusiob. Your rationale seems to be that because you like the SNP, you cant contemplate that they may not be exactly what you want them to be.

If you are not going to engage with the points i make, amd try to just shout me down, its difficult.

Also im not spouting the tartan tories line at them now, but the name came from somewhere and it was common a lot more recently than forty years.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm not a huge fan of Tasmina, but are suggesting now that nobody is allowed to change their political views.

I asked you on another thread to try looking beyond your own front door. Maybe Tasmina did just that.

Perhaps. Or maybe she made a calculating political decision? Or maybe she is right of centre who believes in independence?

Do you accept its at least a possibility?

[marinello59]

One or two might be LibDems in an alternate reality. Centrists like Fergus Ewing and Richard Lochhead but Tories? No, I don't think so at all.

Otherwise, Kezia looks pretty comfortable parroting Ruth's lines...

There really would be no need for any SNP member to join the Tories, they are already members of a centre right party despite all the posturing and attempts to pretend otherwise. It's hilarious watching Labour supporters and SNP supporters bickering over who is the most left wing, it's an utterly meaningless debate.

[cabbageandribs1875]

tartan tories :faf: aw man that really hurts, sometimes the old ones aren't the best

[steakbake]

There really would be no need for any SNP member to join the Tories, they are already members of a centre right party despite all the posturing and attempts to pretend otherwise. It's hilarious watching Labour supporters and SNP supporters bickering over who is the most left wing, it's an utterly meaningless debate.

Two bald men fighting over a comb!

Strangely, Labour have a left wing leader - but his MPs generally don't want him, find any way they can to undermine him and can't wait to get him out. How Liz Kendall and Jeremy Corbyn are in the same party is beyond me, but there we are... Once he is, I suspect people who were fans of The Purple Book or Blue Labour folks like Chuka Umunna might fancy a go.

How Ken Clarke/Michael Hessletine and IDS/Norman Tebbitt are in the same party, I'll never know.

The centre wins elections generally - or they did until everyone wanted a go at populism.

SNP are not particularly left wing and have right and left among them.

I think as you do, it's entirely pointless to debate over which party is one or the other when clearly, there are examples in all parties of a range of opinions. To pretend it does not exist across the board in politics is pointless.

[allmodcons]

Perhaps. Or maybe she made a calculating political decision? Or maybe she is right of centre who believes in independence?

Do you accept its at least a possibility?

No.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No.

Ha ha, i think you're being toungue-in-cheek, but im not sure.

I think ill leave this one for now.

[allmodcons]

Ha ha, i think you're being toungue-in-cheek, but im not sure.

I think ill leave this one for now.

Me? Never.

[Moulin Yarns]

any word on a date for the referendum yet ?

No, because TM the PM isn't doing the day job, she is too busy warmongering in Saudi Arabia.

[allmodcons]

There really would be no need for any SNP member to join the Tories, they are already members of a centre right party despite all the posturing and attempts to pretend otherwise. It's hilarious watching Labour supporters and SNP supporters bickering over who is the most left wing, it's an utterly meaningless debate.

I assuming you're on the wind up here or Angus the Bull hit you so hard you're suffering from concussion?

I'm not arguing who is the most left wing and, frankly, don't care who is. I know my own politics and for you to conflate the SNP with the Tories is nonsense and I suspect you know it.

Are you seriously suggesting that the SNP have been in power for 9 years because of posturing?

Are you seriously suggesting that anyone who thinks left of centre and votes SNP has been taken in by this posturing and knows no better?

Anyway, why involve yourself in a debate that's utterly meaningless?

[makaveli1875]

No, because TM the PM isn't doing the day job, she is too busy warmongering in Saudi Arabia.

is she drumming up support for the inpending war with spain ?

[ronaldo7]

Id imagine that after the separation agreement negotiation period, a general electiob would be held to elect our first indy parliament.

The results of that would then determine which govt governed post indy Scotland.

Would the SNP stand in such an election?

Also, would the Scottish Tories continue as branch office or wpuld they morph into a new roight of centre Scottish party (as Murdo Fraser proposed a few years back?)

A lot of SNP staffers, poloticians and suppprtrs would be tempted by such a party...

Yes.:wink:

As it stands, nobody knows what will happen, although I'd suggest the SNP would not wish to hand over power to the people who'd been against an Independent Scotland for so long.

[ronaldo7]

Was that the one where a whole load of them were built on the cheap and had to have major repair work when a couple of walls actually fell down a couple of years back? I've no idea, so genuinely asking.

These ones you mean.

https://t.co/WxwHdOcPxe

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yes.:wink:

As it stands, nobody knows what will happen, although I'd suggest the SNP would not wish to hand over power to the people who'd been against an Independent Scotland for so long.

I thinl you might be right. Plus there is likely to be a long ish transition period.

Plus, politicians generally dont give up power!!

[marinello59]

I assuming you're on the wind up here or Angus the Bull hit you so hard you're suffering from concussion?

I'm not arguing who is the most left wing and, frankly, don't care who is. I know my own politics and for you to conflate the SNP with the Tories is nonsense and I suspect you know it.

Are you seriously suggesting that the SNP have been in power for 9 years because of posturing?

Are you seriously suggesting that anyone who thinks left of centre and votes SNP has been taken in by this posturing and knows no better?

Anyway, why involve yourself in a debate that's utterly meaningless?

Sorry Comrade. :greengrin
You seem to have decided I was suggesting a lot of things there that I'm not so sure I did. The SNP attract votes from people with a broad range of opinions that straddles the entire political spectrum. Their ability to be all things to everyone is why they are so dominant.

[allmodcons]

Sorry Comrade. :greengrin
You seem to have decided I was suggesting a lot of things there that I'm not so sure I did. The SNP attract votes from people with a broad range of opinions that straddles the entire political spectrum. Their ability to be all things to everyone is why they are so dominant.

Not at all. Simply suggesting you got hit (hard) by Angus the Bull.

Top line on the hard mans 'Square Go' thread by the way.

"There are other mascots on my list" made me laugh.

[ronaldo7]

I'll just leave this list here of all the things that were achieved under Dewar, Wallace, McConnell and McLeish

Abolition of tuition fees
Free bus passes
Creation of the National Parks in Scotland
Airdrie-Bathgate Railway
Borders Railway
Free Personal Care for the Elderly
Schools for the Future building program
Smoking Ban in public places
Local Government electoral reform to STV
Major anti-sectarian programs invested in
Civil partnerships
Abolition of Section 2A (section 28)
Record investment in Scottish Health and Education
Child poverty to its lowest levels in Scotland since the 1980s
The Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games Bid
A series of vital and transformative Land Reform Acts which modernised Scots law and handed powers to communities to buy their own lands off absentee Land Owners.

Pretty major achievements there. LabourBaaaaaaad. :rolleyes: Where's the equivalent SNP list? #dayjob

In a week where the Tories are dismantling disability payments, you want to measure the size of lists.:rolleyes:

https://www.snp.org/putting_new_devolved_powers_to_good_use

#Dayjob

[DaveF]

These ones you mean.

https://t.co/WxwHdOcPxe

Aye, looks like.

Well if that was a labour success, I'd hate to see the failures.

[Slavoj Zizek]

Still waiting on the equivalent list of legislation from our majority government. All we are seeing are tears and snotters about the constitution none of which alleviates child poverty . I wish I could go over to California to "safeguard" jobs, maybe I could have had a selfie with the Apple VP :rolleyes: #dayjob

[makaveli1875]

Still waiting on the equivalent list of legislation from our majority government. All we are seeing are tears and snotters about the constitution none of which alleviates child poverty . I wish I could go over to California to "safeguard" jobs, maybe I could have had a selfie with the Apple VP :rolleyes: #dayjob

it will be a pretty short list

1. Independence
2. Blame everything on the tories
3. Freedum

[heretoday]

If the Yes side win another referendum by a narrow margin (as seems more than likely) will that be it?
Or is there a chance of an Indyref3 in a few years on asking the UK to readmit us (if they'll have us)?

[DaveF]

Still waiting on the equivalent list of legislation from our majority government. All we are seeing are tears and snotters about the constitution none of which alleviates child poverty . I wish I could go over to California to "safeguard" jobs, maybe I could have had a selfie with the Apple VP :rolleyes: #dayjob

Any list which includes successes like building unsafe schools is going to be difficult to match.

[allmodcons]

Still waiting on the equivalent list of legislation from our majority government. All we are seeing are tears and snotters about the constitution none of which alleviates child poverty . I wish I could go over to California to "safeguard" jobs, maybe I could have had a selfie with the Apple VP :rolleyes: #dayjob

Did you read the thread after you posted your list. How many replies do you expect to get at Hibs.net.





it will be a pretty short list

1. Independence
2. Blame everything on the tories
3. Freedum

Well considered post. Beyond embarrassing.

[makaveli1875]

Did you read the thread after you posted your list. How many replies do you expect to get at Hibs.net.






Well considered post. Beyond embarrassing.

ok what did i miss from the list ?

[ronaldo7]

Still waiting on the equivalent list of legislation from our majority government. All we are seeing are tears and snotters about the constitution none of which alleviates child poverty . I wish I could go over to California to "safeguard" jobs, maybe I could have had a selfie with the Apple VP :rolleyes: #dayjob

Make yer mind up.:rolleyes:

[DaveF]

ok what did i miss from the list ?

Try reading the link he posted a few pages back rather than being spoon fed.

[northstandhibby]

Still waiting on the equivalent list of legislation from our majority government. All we are seeing are tears and snotters about the constitution none of which alleviates child poverty . I wish I could go over to California to "safeguard" jobs, maybe I could have had a selfie with the Apple VP :rolleyes: #dayjob

Agree 100% with this. Grandstanding with anyone who would give Ms Sturgeon an ear in the US is simply appalling. All Ms Sturgeon and the SNP care about is nationalism.

glory glory

[steakbake]

If the Yes side win another referendum by a narrow margin (as seems more than likely) will that be it?
Or is there a chance of an Indyref3 in a few years on asking the UK to readmit us (if they'll have us)?

I doubt it. Only country I have seen reunify in my lifetime is Germany.

The Unionist parties would have to put that in their manifestos and run on that. If they win, they can have a referendum if they like.

[steakbake]

Agree 100% with this. Grandstanding with anyone who would give Ms Sturgeon an ear in the US is simply appalling. All Ms Sturgeon and the SNP care about is nationalism.

glory glory

Silicon Valley, various software companies that want to invest in Scotland and one of the world's most influential universities? Yes, grandstanding it is.

[northstandhibby]

Silicon Valley, various software companies that want to invest in Scotland and one of the world's most influential universities? Yes, grandstanding it is.

I'd love to see thousands of well paid jobs coming to Scotland, wonder though how many will turn up here out of these various software companies you refer to because of Ms Sturgeons visit?

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd love to see thousands of well paid jobs coming to Scotland, wonder though how many will turn up here out of these various software companies you refer to because of Ms Sturgeons visit?

glory glory
So give her the chance to prove that the trip was worth it. Allow it to play out.

Or would you have preferred her to sit at home and refuse the opportunity?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[northstandhibby]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4999813]So give her the chance to prove that the trip was worth it. Allow it to play out.

Or would you have preferred her to sit at home and refuse the opportunity?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk[/QUOTE)

If you don't mind I'm not going to get into a game of answering singular questions on any of these subjects. I've already had a hard day at work and the last thing I want is to be hounded for giving my wider opinion on matters. I've already stated my opinion on Ms Sturgeon's trip.

:greengrin

glory glory

[steakbake]

I'd love to see thousands of well paid jobs coming to Scotland, wonder though how many will turn up here out of these various software companies you refer to because of Ms Sturgeons visit?

glory glory

I believe there was an announcement of 6.3mil investment and 300 jobs on the back of one company. There will no doubt be others.

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4999813]So give her the chance to prove that the trip was worth it. Allow it to play out.

Or would you have preferred her to sit at home and refuse the opportunity?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk[/QUOTE)

If you don't mind I'm not going to get into a game of answering singular questions on any of these subjects. I've already had a hard day at work and the last thing I want is to be hounded for giving my wider opinion on matters. I've already stated my opinion on Ms Sturgeon's trip.

:greengrin

glory glory
If you're going to make points like you did, you have to expect to be challenged on them. That's not being "hounded ".

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

I'd love to see thousands of well paid jobs coming to Scotland, wonder though how many will turn up here out of these various software companies you refer to because of Ms Sturgeons visit?

glory glory

https://t.co/dnungceMtY

[northstandhibby]

[QUOTE=northstandhibby;4999818]
If you're going to make points like you did, you have to expect to be challenged on them.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Yes I appreciate fully folk will give a contradictory viewpoint if they so wish but the singular questions seem to be unique to yourself and can feel more hounding folk than teasing out conversations, i'm sure you know that already.

:aok:

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

https://t.co/dnungceMtY

Hardly thousands of jobs is it but every job is worthwhile though.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Hardly thousands of jobs is it but every job is worthwhile though.

glory glory

I appreciate the UK government are currently generating the "thousands" of jobs in Scotland:rolleyes:

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4999825]

Yes I appreciate fully folk will give a contradictory viewpoint if they so wish but the singular questions seem to be unique to yourself and can feel more hounding folk than teasing out conversations, i'm sure you know that already.

:aok:

glory glory
That doesn't answer the question though, Mr. Howard. 😉

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[steakbake]

Hardly thousands of jobs is it but every job is worthwhile though.

glory glory

Hardly thousands indeed, but replicated a few times over, raising awareness and showcasing our unis, research, tech sector and alternative energy etc is no bad thing at all.

Far from appalling.

[ronaldo7]

Hardly thousands of jobs is it but every job is worthwhile though.

glory glory

https://t.co/OFE1EScGMA

Edinburgh-based venture capital firm Par Equity is to open its first US office in San Francisco, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed.
Par Equity facilitates investment into smaller companies with high growth potential and has launched a $125 million fund, focussed on health technology, for which it will be seeking transatlantic investment.
The firm, which was founded in 2008, will support Scottish companies to expand into the US while meeting the current demand to bring US companies to Scotland.
The USA is Scotland’s top source of inward investment, accounting for 36% of inward investment projects and is Scotland’s second largest export partner - worth £4.56 billion a year, making up 15.9% of all international exports.

[northstandhibby]

Hardly thousands indeed, but replicated a few times over, raising awareness and showcasing our unis, research, tech sector etc is no bad thing at all.

Far from appalling.

I'm sticking with it was far more a stage managed grandstanding by the SNP and some of their friends in the US. By the way whatever happened to the 10 billion pound deal with China?

glory glory

[steakbake]

I'm sticking with it was far more a stage managed grandstanding by the SNP and some of their friends in the US. By the way whatever happened to the 10 billion pound deal with China?

glory glory

It appeared to collapse after hostile opposition to it:

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/10bn-china-deal-collapses-over-hostile-scots-outcry-1-4279743/amp

Looking around, it seems Labour/LD opposed it because of one of the companies involved (doesn't stop them from lobbying on behalf of BAE when in government, though). Labour thought the deal 'secretive'.

Tories thought the deal wasn't conducted privately enough.

Who knows where the truth lies.

What I often wonder though, is whether the criticism is about the person's reluctance to see Scotland on any kind of world stage or being represented as any kind of a normal country. Perhaps a bit of Scottish cringe, like we don't have the place to be out in the world talking about our potential. We should be at home, managing the public sector and awaiting the next investment that the UK kindly bestows on us. That's what I think it boils down to.

I'm sure some might say...but there's a crisis in education, health etc etc. May is out in Qatar and Saudi, seeking grubby deals with tyrants while her chaotic NHS is being privatised by stealth and the education system is being delivered into the hands of elitists.

We have every right to be on a world stage and I would defend any Scottish politician's position in doing that, regardless of their party. One of the most dynamic governments in devolution era was Jack McConnell's. I happened to meet him the other day where he was talking about the importance of reaching out to the globalised world for education, science, investment and jobs. I think the only fuss that was made at the time was about his kilt. But I was a very important intervention from him.

I know some Scots feel uncomfortable seeing us walking on a global stage, because that normalises us as a country like any other. It's the only conclusion I can arrive at as to why people are hostile: it undermines the normalised position that some are very uncomfortable with us having.

[ronaldo7]

Agree 100% with this. Grandstanding with anyone who would give Ms Sturgeon an ear in the US is simply appalling. All Ms Sturgeon and the SNP care about is nationalism.

glory glory

What's your view on Theresa May Grandstanding with the Saudis?

[RyeSloan]

It appeared to collapse after hostile opposition to it:

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/10bn-china-deal-collapses-over-hostile-scots-outcry-1-4279743/amp

Looking around, it seems Labour/LD opposed it because of one of the companies involved (doesn't stop them from lobbying on behalf of BAE when in government, though). Labour thought the deal 'secretive'.

Tories thought the deal wasn't conducted privately enough.

Who knows where the truth lies.

The truth lies here:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/news/keith-brown-apologises-for-role-in-china-deal-collapse-1-4407027/amp

Basically they did little or no fact checking but happily posed for the cameras anyway..

Was also nice to see the Greens doing their bit to make sure the person responsible only had to say sorry for all to be forgiven [emoji57]

[Jack]

I'm sticking with it was far more a stage managed grandstanding by the SNP and some of their friends in the US. By the way whatever happened to the 10 billion pound deal with China?

glory glory

Every First Minister has done it, every Prime Minister has done it. Various lesser mortals from governments have been at it for generations.

Jings there are even trade delegations made up with councillors from cities across the UK toddle off near and far.

All this happening while in Scotland and the UK we receive representatives from countries around the world.

I really can't believe something as basic as politicians visiting overseas, the sort of stuff that's covered in the media every other week, it's worthy of a pop at the SNP/NS, even on a thread like this.

[steakbake]

Every First Minister has done it, every Prime Minister has done it. Various lesser mortals from governments have been at it for generations.

Jings there are even trade delegations made up with councillors from cities across the UK toddle off near and far.

All this happening while in Scotland and the UK we receive representatives from countries around the world.

I really can't believe something as basic as politicians visiting overseas, the sort of stuff that's covered in the media every other week, it's worthy of a pop at the SNP/NS, even on a thread like this.

People don't want to see Scotland normalised as a country on the world stage. It runs counter to where they see our 'place'.

They'd rather see May with the Saudis and Qataris and Liam Fox telling Duterte that Britain and he have shared values.

[CropleyWasGod]

Every First Minister has done it, every Prime Minister has done it. Various lesser mortals from governments have been at it for generations.

Jings there are even trade delegations made up with councillors from cities across the UK toddle off near and far.

All this happening while in Scotland and the UK we receive representatives from countries around the world.

I really can't believe something as basic as politicians visiting overseas, the sort of stuff that's covered in the media every other week, it's worthy of a pop at the SNP/NS, even on a thread like this.
I'd be more concerned if our first citizens weren't doing it.

We all know that most of it is for show, and that the groundwork has already been laid. The signing of the agreements is a photo opportunity. But that shouldn't take away from the fact that the deal, whichever leader it is, has been done.

On a side-note, I am particularly interested in the implications of the climate change agreement that was signed by NS and Jerry Brown.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[northstandhibby]

What's your view on Theresa May Grandstanding with the Saudis?

Not good at all tbh as the Saudi regime is one associated with one of the worst human rights record around the world.

glory glory

[steakbake]

I'd be more concerned if our first citizens weren't doing it.

We all know that most of it is for show, and that the groundwork has already been laid. The signing of the agreements is a photo opportunity. But that shouldn't take away from the fact that the deal, whichever leader it is, has been done.

On a side-note, I am particularly interested in the implications of the climate change agreement that was signed by NS and Jerry Brown.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk


California is 6th biggest economy in the world in its own right.

Will be interesting. Excellent opportunities for tech.

[RyeSloan]

I'd be more concerned if our first citizens weren't doing it.

We all know that most of it is for show, and that the groundwork has already been laid. The signing of the agreements is a photo opportunity. But that shouldn't take away from the fact that the deal, whichever leader it is, has been done.

On a side-note, I am particularly interested in the implications of the climate change agreement that was signed by NS and Jerry Brown.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Correct...it's political currency the world over.

As for the climate change agreement, probably lots of nice words and good intentions that won't add up to much directly would be my guess but I'm just an auld cynic so who knows [emoji12]

[ronaldo7]

Not good at all tbh as the Saudi regime is one associated with one of the worst human rights record around the world.

glory glory

Is your point then, that neither the FM or the PM should be going out of the country to visit others?

[marinello59]

On a side-note, I am particularly interested in the implications of the climate change agreement that was signed by NS and Jerry Brown.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

I was hoping we were doing a climate swap deal with them.

[CropleyWasGod]

I was hoping we were doing a climate swap deal with them.
That is what climate change is
....

Isn't it?




Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

I was hoping we were doing a climate swap deal with them.

Hee hee that made me laugh!

[ronaldo7]

Yes

glory glory

Thanks for that.

Global Britain bites the dust then.:aok:

North Korea here we come.:greengrin

Nae need for they Blue Passports then.

[Hibrandenburg]

Agree 100% with this. Grandstanding with anyone who would give Ms Sturgeon an ear in the US is simply appalling. All Ms Sturgeon and the SNP care about is nationalism.

glory glory

Or you could take the view that she's out there looking to bring environmentally friendly technology to Scotland and build trade bridges in hi-tec. Meanwhile May is out trying to boost the killing industry. :rolleyes:

[Hibrandenburg]

Not good at all tbh as the Saudi regime is one associated with one of the worst human rights record around the world.

glory glory

How come you didn't find the outrage to criticise that instead of having a go at Sturgeon for having her photo taken?

[northstandhibby]

How come you didn't find the outrage to criticise that instead of having a go at Sturgeon for having her photo taken?

The topic was if I remember rightly when I did criticise Ms Sturgeon for her photo opportunity was one in regards to Ms Sturgeon. If there had been a topic mentioning the Saudi trip I would clearly have criticised it.

Its well posted on here I favor a devolved Scotland within the UK and I'm also in favor of the EU and its institutions and one day hope the Labour party can show itself again.



glory glory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Or you could take the view that she's out there looking to bring environmentally friendly technology to Scotland and build trade bridges in hi-tec. Meanwhile May is out trying to boost the killing industry. :rolleyes:

What do we build on the clyde amd rosyth?

But thats by the by.

Why anyone, including yourself, is trying to score points off each other over any of our leaders trying to drum-up, rubber stamp or simply get a photo with big novelty cheque representing investment and jobs in scotlabd is beyond me.

[Hibrandenburg]

What do we build on the clyde amd rosyth?

But thats by the by.

Why anyone, including yourself, is trying to score points off each other over any of our leaders trying to drum-up, rubber stamp or simply get a photo with big novelty cheque representing investment and jobs in scotlabd is beyond me.

You'll find my post is an answer to someone doing just that. But while we're on the subject, do you think May's plans to sell the Saudis weapons is morally acceptable and the kind of trade agreement that's better than environmentally friendly hi-tec deals?

[RyeSloan]

You'll find my post is an answer to someone doing just that. But while we're on the subject, do you think May's plans to sell the Saudis weapons is morally acceptable and the kind of trade agreement that's better than environmentally friendly hi-tec deals?

Don't think you will find many people on here thinking selling Saudi Arabia weapons a good thing.

As an aside though not all hi-tec is environmentally friendly...a hell of a lot of mining of rare earths and other metals and minerals is required to support these technologies. Admittedly they will always be better than coal power stations but don't under estimate their impact in other ways.

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't think you will find many people on here thinking selling Saudi Arabia weapons a good thing.

As an aside though not all hi-tec is environmentally friendly...a hell of a lot of mining of rare earths and other metals and minerals is required to support these technologies. Admittedly they will always be better than coal power stations but don't under estimate their impact in other ways.

She signed a deal on CO2 emissions and climate protection as well as technology deals to help both. What's not to like :confused:

[RyeSloan]

She signed a deal on CO2 emissions and climate protection as well as technology deals to help both. What's not to like :confused:

Yeah to be fair I was wandering off a bit [emoji12]

Wasn't talking about the specifics of what she signed just read the environmentally friendly bit and it reminded me that there is a lot of maybe slightly hidden environmental cost in a lot of silicon valleys creations!

[steakbake]

She signed a deal on CO2 emissions and climate protection as well as technology deals to help both. What's not to like :confused:

Because it was NS who went to sign it and not someone else, essentially. I don't know.

Nothing she would come back with will appease her most hardened critics. She could turn up with the cure for all known diseases and folks would berate her for putting doctors out of a job and forcing people to live forever.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You'll find my post is an answer to someone doing just that. But while we're on the subject, do you think May's plans to sell the Saudis weapons is morally acceptable and the kind of trade agreement that's better than environmentally friendly hi-tec deals?

I dont know enough about the deals to know which is better for Scotland, or the UK.

Morally, of course windfarms are 'better' but economically i dont know. We are very good at building weapons in this country, amd if the saudis, who are our ally afterall, need weapons they will buy them from somewhere, so why not us?

So yeah i would say it is acceptable and desireable.

[northstandhibby]

Because it was NS who went to sign it and not someone else, essentially. I don't know.

Nothing she would come back with will appease her most hardened critics. She could turn up with the cure for all known diseases and folks would berate her for putting doctors out of a job and forcing people to live forever.

Tbh I was much more impressed today with hearing the metal graphene has the potential to make sea water drinkable much more easily and could save lives across the world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39482342

glory glory

[steakbake]

I dont know enough about the deals to know which is better for Scotland, or the UK.

Morally, of course windfarms are 'better' but economically i dont know. We are very good at building weapons in this country, amd if the saudis, who are our ally afterall, need weapons they will buy them from somewhere, so why not us?

So yeah i would say it is acceptable and desireable.

You do know the Saudis protect, fund and promote Islamists like ISIS? Qatar kindly hosts an Al-Qaeda embassy and their tv and media outreach? Saudi are dropping cluster bombs on the Yemeni people and have committed various war crimes in the process. Fox is in Manila talking about having "shared values" with a guy who has overseen the extrajudicial murder of thousands of his own people.

But Sturgeon going to the US for a week is apparently appalling?

[steakbake]

Tbh I was much more impressed today with hearing the metal graphene has the potential to make sea water drinkable much more easily and could save lives across the world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39482342

glory glory

Nice deflection - it's the first time it has come up in discussion here.

[Glory Lurker]

I preferred it when Jack McConnell made a total jambo of himself in NY in that stupid kilt. That's how Scotland should look to portray itself on the world stage. We must stop getting ideas above our station.

[northstandhibby]

You do know the Saudis protect, fund and promote Islamists like ISIS? Qatar kindly hosts an Al-Qaeda embassy and their tv and media outreach? Saudi are dropping cluster bombs on the Yemeni people and have committed various war crimes in the process. Fox is in Manila talking about having "shared values" with a guy who has overseen the extrajudicial murder of thousands of his own people.

But Sturgeon going to the US for a week is apparently appalling?

You've just linked what I said about Ms Sturgeon on a completely separate matter to war crimes by the Saudis and taken what was said out of any context what so ever. Would you mind very much deleting this please.

glory glory

[steakbake]

You've just linked what I said about Ms Sturgeon on a completely separate matter to war crimes by the Saudis and taken what was said out of any context what so ever. Would you mind very much deleting this please.

glory glory

It's more for Southside. The acceptable and desirable arms trade etc.

I'll leave this here.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You do know the Saudis protect, fund and promote Islamists like ISIS? Qatar kindly hosts an Al-Qaeda embassy and their tv and media outreach? Saudi are dropping cluster bombs on the Yemeni people and have committed various war crimes in the process. Fox is in Manila talking about having "shared values" with a guy who has overseen the extrajudicial murder of thousands of his own people.

But Sturgeon going to the US for a week is apparently appalling?

I never criticised Sturgeon dor going to the USA. Quite the opposite.

Yes i know about al quaida etc, and im not saying i think they are great guys, on the whole i think they are a bunch of backward idiots. But they are our ally amd they will buy their weapons from someone, probably the USA, also our ally.

Were you not lamenting the collapse of a trade deal with china earlier? The point being if you only dealt with people you liled, you wouldnt deal with many people.

Its the uncomfortablr truth of international relations im afraid. Remember it wasnt so long ago that Trump was the SNPs hreatest friend. Im sure they didnt actually like him, but they felt they had to deal with him.

Its the difference between real politics, and theoretical politics.

[heretoday]

I preferred it when Jack McConnell made a total jambo of himself in NY in that stupid kilt. That's how Scotland should look to portray itself on the world stage. We must stop getting ideas above our station.

Unfortunately, it is how much of the world sees us. Otherwise we're just another nation in a smart suit touting for business.
So get your Kiltie out Nicola and brush up on your Harry Lauder numbers!

[High-On-Hibs]

I never criticised Sturgeon dor going to the USA. Quite the opposite.

Yes i know about al quaida etc, and im not saying i think they are great guys, on the whole i think they are a bunch of backward idiots. But they are our ally amd they will buy their weapons from someone, probably the USA, also our ally.

Were you not lamenting the collapse of a trade deal with china earlier? The point being if you only dealt with people you liled, you wouldnt deal with many people.

Its the uncomfortablr truth of international relations im afraid. Remember it wasnt so long ago that Trump was the SNPs hreatest friend. Im sure they didnt actually like him, but they felt they had to deal with him.

Its the difference between real politics, and theoretical politics.

You say that they are "our" ally. Who's "our"? They're certainly not my ally, or the allies of Scotland on a whole I would suspect.

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39503707


Might be time for some to look for a new bank. Maybe a European one?

[Slavers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39503707


Might be time for some to look for a new bank. Maybe a European one?

Why?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You say that they are "our" ally. Who's "our"? They're certainly not my ally, or the allies of Scotland on a whole I would suspect.

Sorry HoH, democracy doesnt extend to each person getting to vote on which allies do or do not represent which British people.

They arr the UKs allies, and we are part of the UK, for the time being anyway.

[PeeJay]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39503707


Might be time for some to look for a new bank. Maybe a European one?

Lloyd's Bank isn't a European bank? :confused:

[ronaldo7]

I preferred it when Jack McConnell made a total jambo of himself in NY in that stupid kilt. That's how Scotland should look to portray itself on the world stage. We must stop getting ideas above our station.

18325:faf:

I wonder how many jobs, Ruth, brought back when she was in the States in February, or Kezia, when she was their last October?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

18325:faf:

I wonder how many jobs, Ruth, brought back when she was in the States in February, or Kezia, when she was their last October?

That is a funny picture!!

To be fair, the kilt is smart. Its the horrendous shirt that makes him look like a right tyt

[ronaldo7]

That is a funny picture!!

To be fair, the kilt is smart. Its the horrendous shirt that makes him look like a right tyt

It's Alex Salmond in the bunnet I'm laughing at.:greengrin

[xyz23jc]

It's Alex Salmond in the bunnet I'm laughing at.:greengrin

Right that's it! Yer oot thi party! :thumbsup::agree::greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So, i got attacked the other day for suggesting that the scotttish govt were not doing a good job on the economy, nhs or education.

Swinney has admitted 'challenges' in education, alex neil, former cab sec health suggested the NHS was toiling, amd now it id clear our economy is struggling quite badly.

All the tories' fault?

[-Jonesy-]

So, i got attacked the other day for suggesting that the scotttish govt were not doing a good job on the economy, nhs or education.

Swinney has admitted 'challenges' in education, alex neil, former cab sec health suggested the NHS was toiling, amd now it id clear our economy is struggling quite badly.


All the tories' fault?

Considering almost every single facet of macroeconomic control for Scotland is still controlled by the UK Tory government I'd say a massive massive chunk of it is yes.

[Colr]

Considering almost every single facet of macroeconomic control for Scotland is still controlled by the UK Tory government I'd say a massive massive chunk of it is yes.

Education and the NHS?

[CropleyWasGod]

Education and the NHS?

In that the grant under the Barnett formula, being linked to the equivalent expenditure in England and Wales, is controlled by Westminster, that is correct.

On a micro level, though, the actual spending of the block grant is controlled by Holyrood.

[RyeSloan]

In that the grant under the Barnett formula, being linked to the equivalent expenditure in England and Wales, is controlled by Westminster, that is correct.

On a micro level, though, the actual spending of the block grant is controlled by Holyrood.

Which comes back to the point of how important total spend is versus how you spend it...

[allmodcons]

Education and the NHS?

I think it's fair to say that the SNP's record on education hasn't been the best. They definitely have some issues but, IMO, they are trying to address these problems which is why they have prioritised trying to close the attainment gap.

The NHS is another thing altogether. There are huge pressures facing the NHS, particularly, life expectancy. If you compare apple with apples, across the UK the NHS in Scotland is in a far better place than England (Conservative Government) and Wales (Labour Administration).

[Colr]

In that the grant under the Barnett formula, being linked to the equivalent expenditure in England and Wales, is controlled by Westminster, that is correct.

On a micro level, though, the actual spending of the block grant is controlled by Holyrood.

But Scotland spends much more than England on the NHS and education!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think it's fair to say that the SNP's record on education hasn't been the best. They definitely have some issues but, IMO, they are trying to address these problems which is why they have prioritised trying to close the attainment gap.

The NHS is another thing altogether. There are huge pressures facing the NHS, particularly, life expectancy. If you compare apple with apples, across the UK the NHS in Scotland is in a far better place than England (Conservative Government) and Wales (Labour Administration).

So you agree there are huge challenges facing the NHS, amd also in education, but health isnt as bad as england or wales.

Using your compariosons across the UK, why is scotland performing so badly economically, compared to elsewhere?

[CropleyWasGod]

But Scotland spends much more than England on the NHS and education!

The point, though, was about the "macro" control of the spending. That remains at Westminster.

If the SG choose to spend more of their budget on health and education than Westminster do, that is their right, of course. But the overall purse strings are held by WM.... which was the point I was answering.

[allmodcons]

So you agree there are huge challenges facing the NHS, amd also in education, but health isnt as bad as england or wales.

Using your compariosons across the UK, why is scotland performing so badly economically, compared to elsewhere?

Don't think I was looking to address the economy but, for me, this is the real reason for Independence.

No control over Macro Economic Policy, that's why Scotland struggles. There's no denying we are where we are in the Union.

As you are happy to consider Scotland a region of the UK, I suggest you delve a bit deeper and check out how other regions (i.e. - Wales, NI, Midlands, North West, North East) perform.

Economic growth is driven by London and the South East of England. It's where most the money is spent of course and IMO is an inherent weakness in the overall UK economy.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Don't think I was looking to address the economy but, for me, this is the real reason for Independence.

No control over Macro Economic Policy, that's why Scotland struggles. There's no denying we are where we are in the Union.

As you are happy to consider Scotland a region of the UK, I suggest you delve a bit deeper and check out how other regions (i.e. - Wales, NI, Midlands, North West, North East) perform.

Economic growth is driven by London and the South East of England. It's where most the money is spent of course and IMO is an inherent weakness in the overall UK economy.

Perhaps, or maybe having endless referenda (not all the the SG fault) is really bad for an economy.

Its all moot i suppose, those in favour of indy aren't likely to be swayed amd those set against likewise.

[allmodcons]

Perhaps, or maybe having endless referenda (not all the the SG fault) is really bad for an economy.

Its all moot i suppose, those in favour of indy aren't likely to be swayed amd those set against likewise.

Of course, the main reason for poor economic performance is poor levels of productivity brought about by forums just like Hibs.net :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Of course, the main reason for poor economic performance is poor levels of productivity brought about by forums just like Hibs.net :wink:

Touche!!

[Slavoj Zizek]

Scotland on the brink of recession: :rolleyes:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15205612.Political_parties_blame_each_other_as_sho ck_figures_suggest_Scotland_at_risk_of_another_rec ession/

[Slavoj Zizek]

In a week where the Tories are dismantling disability payments, you want to measure the size of lists.:rolleyes:

https://www.snp.org/putting_new_devolved_powers_to_good_use

#Dayjob

Sorry Flash but the Scottish Government have purposely delayed DLA transfers until 2020.

[ronaldo7]

Scotland on the brink of recession: :rolleyes:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15205612.Political_parties_blame_each_other_as_sho ck_figures_suggest_Scotland_at_risk_of_another_rec ession/

That'll be the Union dividend we were all told about.:rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

Sorry Flash but the Scottish Government have purposely delayed DLA transfers until 2020.

:rolleyes:

You've been away for a while, it must have taken some time reading through all those SNP Lists.:aok:

[Slavoj Zizek]

:rolleyes:

You've been away for a while, it must have taken some time reading through all those SNP Lists.:aok:

There is no point having an intelligent "discussion" with entryist neo-trotskist punters. How did your "Listening Converstation" go? #SilentMajority

[Mr Grieves]

Perhaps, or maybe having endless referenda (not all the the SG fault) is really bad for an economy.

Its all moot i suppose, those in favour of indy aren't likely to be swayed amd those set against likewise.

I think the Scottish economy was doing quite well in the run up to the first indyref. As has been mentioned, it would be interesting to see the stats region by region to see if areas outside the south east are performing as poorly as Scotland

[ronaldo7]

There is no point having an intelligent "discussion" with entryist neo-trotskist punters. How did your "Listening Converstation" go? #SilentMajority

Ok Flash:aok: