Indy Ref 2

[Hibrandenburg]

Good point. Very good point. Sadly not one which got much coverage during the referendum. If more people realised this, there'd be less rubbish spouted about "taking back control" and "regaining sovereignty".

:greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Nice to see Simon Pia move to YES. Welcome Simon.:aok:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DufLTSZPjYQ

It's hard not to smirk at this.

You welcomed Simon Pia to your cause.

Did you, aye? :greengrin

[Just Alf]

It's hard not to smirk at this.

You welcomed Simon Pia to your cause.

Did you, aye? :greengrin

Ha ha.... Had a wee chortle myself :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I dont really know what you are saying. It sounds like you have sone personal gripes, but of course policy cant be made to suit personal circumstances.

It is what it is. My main gripe is with those who consider some people are not worthy of being part of the democratic process. You can't integrate into a society you play no meaningful part in forming. It's strange that it always seems to be the same people complaining that immigrants don't integrate that also want to deny immigrants the same democratic status as themselves and then wonder why those immigrants fail to integrate.

[lord bunberry]

I know loads that voted yes then SNP but returned to Labour in this election. It was the Labour manifesto and Corbyn that attracted them back. Even had people say if there's a progressive government in Westminster there's no need for independence
I'm sure that there's loads of people who think that way. My point was more that a vote for Labour or the Tories doesn't necessarily mean that the voter is against independence. The same thing could be said of SNP voters.

[ronaldo7]

It's hard not to smirk at this.

You welcomed Simon Pia to your cause.

Did you, aye? :greengrin

I did Simon.

Welcome.:aok:

[pacoluna]

I know loads that voted yes then SNP but returned to Labour in this election. It was the Labour manifesto and Corbyn that attracted them back. Even had people say if there's a progressive government in Westminster there's no need for independence
Labour in scotland are being over hyped, they didn't gain that many votes, you could argue that they gained seats because of a big swing to the tories. It could be that labour gained many SNP/nationalist voters because of corbyn but that advantage was chucked away by other labour voters tactically voting for the tories.

[marinello59]

Labour in scotland are being over hyped, they didn't gain that many votes, you could argue that they gained seats because of a big swing to the tories. It could be that labour gained many SNP/nationalist voters because of corbyn but that advantage was chucked away by other labour voters tactically voting for the tories.

That is probably a view only the more devoted SNP followers will have. There is nothing to support it but it's a nice wee comfort blanket for those in denial about the challenges ahead.
Is the Labour vote being over hyped? it would be fair comment to say they did better than expected but I don't think anybody has claimed that it was a major revival. They do look more attractive now though and if Corbyn can keep the momentum going it can only result in more Labour voters in Scotland.

[G B Young]

That is probably a view only the more devoted SNP followers will have. There is nothing to support it but it's a nice wee comfort blanket for those in denial about the challenges ahead.
Is the Labour vote being over hyped? it would be fair comment to say they did better than expected but I don't think anybody has claimed that it was a major revival. They do look more attractive now though and if Corbyn can keep the momentum going it can only result in more Labour voters in Scotland.

Absolutely. You can't attribute the Tories winning a dozen extra seats and racking up double digit gains in almost every other Scottish seat to massed ranks of Labour voters voting Tory. That just wouldn't happen. The truth the SNP don't want to acknowledge is that voters find a lot to like about the Scottish Tories, in particular the extraordinary job Ruth Davidson has done in making them highly electable for the first time in many years.

By doing things her way, Davidson has effectively kept the Tories in government and they should seriously consider a more senior role for her. This quote from the weekend sums up why the Tories did so well in Scotland and so poorly elsewhere:

"When Theresa May was in Edinburgh, sharing a stage with Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives had so much energy you could plug her into the National Grid and there would be no need for a Winter Fuel Allowance. The contrast between the two women was painful. One brittle, stilted and awkward, the other likeable and bouncing with energy. No way could Ruth's fierce eloquence be schooled by special advisers; it gushes from a wellspring of deeply held beliefs. 'I want what she's having' is how Davidson makes you feel."

[snooky]

Absolutely. You can't attribute the Tories winning a dozen extra seats and racking up double digit gains in almost every other Scottish seat to massed ranks of Labour voters voting Tory. That just wouldn't happen. The truth the SNP don't want to acknowledge is that voters find a lot to like about the Scottish Tories, in particular the extraordinary job Ruth Davidson has done in making them highly electable for the first time in many years.

By doing things her way, Davidson has effectively kept the Tories in government and they should seriously consider a more senior role for her. This quote from the weekend sums up why the Tories did so well in Scotland and so poorly elsewhere:

"When Theresa May was in Edinburgh, sharing a stage with Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives had so much energy you could plug her into the National Grid and there would be no need for a Winter Fuel Allowance. The contrast between the two women was painful. One brittle, stilted and awkward, the other likeable and bouncing with energy. No way could Ruth's fierce eloquence be schooled by special advisers; it gushes from a wellspring of deeply held beliefs. 'I want what she's having' is how Davidson makes you feel."

Well, jolly hockey sticks for Ruth Davidson.
Indyref1 was her peak. She just a blaw now.

[G B Young]

Well, jolly hockey sticks for Ruth Davidson.
Indyref1 was her peak. She just a blaw now.

Not sure hockey would have been on the timetable when Ruth was at Buckhaven High...that's precisely her appeal, she doesn't fit the Tory stereotype, which is what makes it so hard for the SNP to pigeon hole her.

I don't recall her being especially high profile during the independence referendum. I'd suggest making the Tories the second biggest party at Holyrood in the 2016 Scottish Parliamentary elections, doubling the Tory vote in the Scottish Council elections and then effectively keeping the Tories in power at Westminster by adding a dozen Scottish seats have been bigger 'peaks' for her.

[cabbageandribs1875]

ruth davidson is a mega windbag who likes to shout louder than everyone else

[Slavers]

ruth davidson is a mega windbag who likes to shout louder than everyone else

This kind of chat will not lead to an SNP revival. In fact it's probably one of the reason ls the SNP have had their day ok Scotland. The bitter politics they bring to Scotland is no longer welcome.

[cabbageandribs1875]

This kind of chat will not lead to an SNP revival. In fact it's probably one of the reason ls the SNP have had their day ok Scotland. The bitter politics they bring to Scotland is no longer welcome.



aye ok, that's the reason :faf: and ermmm had their day ? and as for 'that kind of chat' suggest you scroll back many hundreds of posts for a bit of balance :aok:

[pacoluna]

This kind of chat will not lead to an SNP revival. In fact it's probably one of the reason ls the SNP have had their day ok Scotland. The bitter politics they bring to Scotland is no longer welcome.
this kind of rhetoric is the thing that gets me " the SNP have had their day" please explain?

[Hibbyradge]

The truth the SNP don't want to acknowledge is that voters find a lot to like about the Scottish Tories, in particular the extraordinary job Ruth Davidson has done in making them highly electable for the first time in many years.



This is undoubtedly correct. If the Tories become popular in Scotland, the whole " we didn't get the government we voted for", and "Scotland would never vote Tory" arguments are blown.

I said on here months ago that the SNP were aiming at the wrong target by constantly attacking Labour because it seemed clear to me that the Tories were becoming much more of a threat to them. As I recall, that view was met with complacency and it seems that the party's central office didn't sense the change in mood either.

Ruth Davidson comes across extremely well with ordinary voters. Like Sturgeon, she is personable, natural and authentic. As a person she's hard to dislike and the tactic of simply calling her a Tory and expecting people to consequently find her repugnant, as the SNP seem to have relied upon, won't work.


Well, jolly hockey sticks for Ruth Davidson.
Indyref1 was her peak. She just a blaw now.

I would think that increasing Scottish Tory MPs from 1 to 13 suggests something else.


ruth davidson is a mega windbag who likes to shout louder than everyone else

That can be said of virtually every politician.

[cabbageandribs1875]

This is undoubtedly correct. If the Tories become popular in Scotland, the whole " we didn't get the government we voted for", and "Scotland would never vote Tory" arguments are blown.

I said on here months ago that the SNP were aiming at the wrong target by constantly attacking Labour because it seemed clear to me that the Tories were becoming much more of a threat to them. As I recall, that view was met with complacency and it seems that the party's central office didn't sense the change in mood either.

Ruth Davidson comes across extremely well with ordinary voters. Like Sturgeon, she is personable, natural and authentic. As a person she's hard to dislike and the tactic of simply calling her a Tory and expecting people to consequently find her repugnant, as the SNP seem to have relied upon, won't work.



I would think that increasing Scottish Tory MPs from 1 to 13 suggests something else.



That can be said of virtually every politician.


something i notice quite a lot on here from non SNP voters, they title opponents of 'sturgeon' by their proper names...but don't appear to show the same respect to 'sturgeon' , her name is NICOLA, NICOLA sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland, try showing some respect to 'sturgeon' and yi might get a respectful reply

:greengrin






and ruthie babe is still a big windbag

[SHODAN]

I'm looking forward to Davidson defending a "soft" Brexit as much as she defended the Union, now she has a chance to.

She'll be just as passionate about it, right? After all, more people wanted to remain in the EU than wanted to remain in the UK.

I won't hold my breath.

[Hibbyradge]

something i notice quite a lot on here from non SNP voters, they title opponents of 'sturgeon' by their proper names...but don't appear to show the same respect to 'sturgeon' , her name is NICOLA, NICOLA sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland, try showing some respect to 'sturgeon' and yi might get a respectful reply

:)

:faf:

Poor wee Nicola. A bad man called her by her surname and he didn't even have the decency to run away.

When I last voted in Scotland, I voted SNP and this time I swapped my vote with someone in Edinburgh South who voted SNP for me.

So :giruy2:

:greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

odds on next tory leader

6/4 Boris johnson....... :(
4/1 David Davis
5/1 Ruth Davidson
6/1 Amber Rudd

[pacoluna]

:faf:

Poor wee Nicola. A bad man called her by her surname and he didn't even have the decency to run away.

When I last voted in Scotland, I voted SNP and this time I swapped my vote with someone in Edinburgh South who voted SNP for me.

So :giruy2:

:greengrin
swapping your vote with someone, desperate measures. kind of seedy in political context.

[cabbageandribs1875]

:faf:

Poor wee Nicola. A bad man called her by her surname and he didn't even have the decency to run away.

When I last voted in Scotland, I voted SNP and this time I swapped my vote with someone in Edinburgh South who voted SNP for me.

So :giruy2:

:greengrin


NOW yer getting it :cb



:clapper:

[Slavers]

I'm looking forward to Davidson defending a "soft" Brexit as much as she defended the Union, now she has a chance to.

She'll be just as passionate about it, right? After all, more people wanted to remain in the EU than wanted to remain in the UK.

I won't hold my breath.

Are you trying to kid people on by claiming more people in Scotland voted to remain EU then remain UK? As that is not true.

[Slavers]

this kind of rhetoric is the thing that gets me " the SNP have had their day" please explain?

10 years in the job of Government and no improvement in standards. They have had their chance and now their support will slide back to historically normal levels In Scotland as a pressure group with a fanatical cult like following.

[pacoluna]

10 years in the job of Government and no improvement in standards. They have had their chance and now their support will slide back to historically normal levels In Scotland as a pressure group with a fanatical cult like following.
:faf:

[SHODAN]

Are you trying to kid people on by claiming more people in Scotland voted to remain EU then remain UK? As that is not true.

Whilst more people voted either way in the independence referendum, the proportional divide is bigger. If she's acting in Scotland's interests by campaigning for the union then she should be consistent and campaign just as hard for Scotland's interests with the EU. Now is her chance to prove it.

[Slavers]

Whilst more people voted either way in the independence referendum, the proportional divide is bigger. If she's acting in Scotland's interests by campaigning for the union then she should be consistent and campaign just as hard for Scotland's interests with the EU. Now is her chance to prove it.

The fact of the matter is that you don't want to admit is more people bothered to get up of their arse and voted to remain in the UK than they did for the EU.

You stated more people voted to remain In the EU than the UK and it was just anther big SNP lie.

[lord bunberry]

10 years in the job of Government and no improvement in standards. They have had their chance and now their support will slide back to historically normal levels In Scotland as a pressure group with a fanatical cult like following.

You really seem to struggle to get your point across without being either insulting or condescending. There really isn't any need for it, others who hold similar views to you seem to manage it.

[Mikey]

odds on next tory leader

6/4 Boris johnson....... :(
4/1 David Davis
5/1 Ruth Davidson
6/1 Amber Rudd

Wouldn't Ruth Davidson have to have a Westminster seat?

[pacoluna]

I am struggling to see how WM elections can be used as a gage for opinion regarding the constitutional debate. loads of issues that are not factored in.


EU citizens + 16/17 year olds as mentioned before.
no yes campaigning which is obviously a big factor in generating support
hijacking of every tory/labour voter as being against independence.
Scotgov - pro nationalist seems to be being ignored
lower electorate turn out compared to referendum
2010 SNP only had 6 MPs, what percentage of votes where pro union in that election?
Media


As said before patience is key for the yes movement but it think the recent WM election results are seriously being over played by the liikes of Ruth and others. Could argue that we are at peak scottish Tory and they were up against an SNP with a dismal electoral campaign that refused to talk about independence, Yet once again the SNP returned more Mps than all other 3 party's put together.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I am struggling to see how WM elections can be used as a gage for opinion regarding the constitutional debate. loads of issues that are not factored in.


EU citizens + 16/17 year olds as mentioned before.
no yes campaigning which is obviously a big factor in generating support
hijacking of every tory/labour voter as being against independence.
Scotgov - pro nationalist seems to be being ignored
lower electorate turn out compared to referendum
2010 SNP only had 6 MPs, what percentage of votes where pro union in that election?
Media


As said before patience is key for the yes movement but it think the recent WM election results are seriously being over played by the liikes of Ruth and others. Could argue that we are at peak scottish Tory and they were up against an SNP with a dismal electoral campaign that refused to talk about independence, Yet once again the SNP returned more Mps than all other 3 party's put together.

I feel you are struggling with this setback. Direction of travel and momentum are huge, and while you make some valid points (not all tory / lab votes can be counted as no, amd vice versa with snp votes).

You asked for mandate about indy, amd your share of the vote went down quite significantly. By all meams ignore it, but it would be stupid imo not to learn lessons.

[pacoluna]

I feel you are struggling with this setback. Direction of travel and momentum are huge, and while you make some valid points (not all tory / lab votes can be counted as no, amd vice versa with snp votes).

You asked for mandate about indy, amd your share of the vote went down quite significantly. By all meams ignore it, but it would be stupid imo not to learn lessons.

I appreciate we lost a lot of seats but this only brings the constitutional divide back into line. I don't see how it can be used to completely dismiss the appetite for another referendum. The only thing I am seeing is this 62% pro union percentage of votes that in my opinion cant be used to gage constitutional opinion.

[G B Young]

Wouldn't Ruth Davidson have to have a Westminster seat?

Yes one would assume so, although I recall Jim Murphy presiding over Scottish Labour for an ill-fated spell while not having a seat at Holyrood so I'm not sure of the protocol.

Hard to imagine Davidson would be elevated straight into the top job, more likely to be a senior role with a view to standing in a by-election to earn a seat in Westminster.

[G B Young]

Ruth Davidson comes across extremely well with ordinary voters. Like Sturgeon, she is personable, natural and authentic. As a person she's hard to dislike and the tactic of simply calling her a Tory and expecting people to consequently find her repugnant, as the SNP seem to have relied upon, won't work.

She's a great asset to the Tories:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40246332

[Hibbyradge]

swapping your vote with someone, desperate measures. kind of seedy in political context.

:rolleyes:

You obviously didn't read the thread about vote swapping.

I suggest you do before issuing any more insults.

[pacoluna]

:rolleyes:

You obviously didn't read the thread about vote swapping.

I suggest you do before issuing any more insults.


I did, and is still think it comes across as politically seedy. An MP stands for a constituency, its wrong for electoral constituencies to be infiltrated/influenced by voters out with that constituency.

[Hibbyradge]

I did, and is still think it comes across as politically seedy. An MP stands for a constituency, its wrong for electoral constituencies to be infiltrated/influenced by voters out with that constituency.

Oh well, we disagree again.

[JeMeSouviens]

Wouldn't Ruth Davidson have to have a Westminster seat?

She would.

There's nothing written down about where it would have to be but for practical purposes it would have to be an English seat. The idea of a PM implementing policy in England while their constituents are unaffected is not tenable, I would suggest.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I appreciate we lost a lot of seats but this only brings the constitutional divide back into line. I don't see how it can be used to completely dismiss the appetite for another referendum. The only thing I am seeing is this 62% pro union percentage of votes that in my opinion cant be used to gage constitutional opinion.

So what are you using to gage that the indy question is back in line?

I agree with you that indy as an issue isnt dead, far from it. But when even senior figures in the SNP are reportedly saying i dyref2 shpuld be left alone for a while, its fair to say that the sharp drop in support is being seen as a sign that moderate yes/no voters are moving away from the SNP.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

She would.

There's nothing written down about where it would have to be but for practical purposes it would have to be an English seat. The idea of a PM implementing policy in England while their constituents are unaffected is not tenable, I would suggest.

Good point. I hadnt considered the remifications of evel like that before.

[snooky]

10 years in the job of Government and no improvement in standards. They have had their chance and now their support will slide back to historically normal levels In Scotland as a pressure group with a fanatical cult like following.
Unlike the massive improvement in the UK living standards over the same period under the Tories.
The Scottish Government of course have the benefit of getting its grateful pocket money from the UK government.

(Freudian slip amended :wink:)

[Hibrandenburg]

:faf:

Poor wee Nicola. A bad man called her by her surname and he didn't even have the decency to run away.

When I last voted in Scotland, I voted SNP and this time I swapped my vote with someone in Edinburgh South who voted SNP for me.

So :giruy2:

:greengrin

Are you sure they didn't vote Tory?

[G B Young]

She would.

There's nothing written down about where it would have to be but for practical purposes it would have to be an English seat. The idea of a PM implementing policy in England while their constituents are unaffected is not tenable, I would suggest.

Gordon Brown was able to do so presumably?

As I said, I can't see Davidson being in with a serious shout of the top job, but Gavin Barwell who lost his seat last week has taken up a key role as the PM's chief of staff so you would imagine there would be openings for Davidson while not actually being an MP. She seems to have had a strong say in talks at Downing Street today.

[Hibbyradge]

Are you sure they didn't vote Tory?

Possibly, but why would he have done that?

In order to get a vote swap, you have to state which party you want to vote for and a party you would be prepared to vote for.

The swap involved me agreeing to vote Lib Dem, his preferred party, so if he really was a Tory, he'd be getting me to vote against the Tory in my constituency.

Ultimately, my vote swap was wasted anyway as 'I'm an MP' held his seat, but my real vote in York would have been wasted too, because the Tory won easily.

I've almost boggled my brain thinking about all the possibilities, but I really don't think the system is particularly vulnerable.

[Hibrandenburg]

Possibly, but why would he have done that?

In order to get a vote swap, you have to state which party you want to vote for and a party you would be prepared to vote for.

The swap involved me agreeing to vote Lib Dem, his preferred party, so if he really was a Tory, he'd be getting me to vote against the Tory in my constituency.

Ultimately, my vote swap was wasted anyway as 'I'm an MP' held his seat, but my real vote in York would have been wasted too, because the Tory won easily.

I've almost boggled my brain thinking about all the possibilities, but I really don't think the system is particularly vulnerable.


What if I set up multiple fake identities and claim to be a Liberal supporter for example? I then ask people to vote Liberal for me in the constituency of my choice in return for effectively nothing. Potentially on the basis of a lie I could persuade several undecideds to vote for the party of my choice.

[heretoday]

Hey I'm still in the lifeboat.
Hello! HELLO!

[Hibbyradge]

What if I set up multiple fake identities and claim to be a Liberal supporter for example? I then ask people to vote Liberal for me in the constituency of my choice in return for effectively nothing. Potentially on the basis of a lie I could persuade several undecideds to vote for the party of my choice.

Your mind is obviously more devious than mine. :greengrin

I hadn't thought of that, but in theory, that would be possible. It would, of course be highly illegal and easy to be uncovered, if necessary.

However, voters are introduced by logging in via Facebook or Twitter so that "you can see who each other are, and what kinds of issues are important to one another, and even get in contact, forming a mini-alliance."

It would require a great deal of time and effort to make each fake account look genuine and unless you were prepared to create several hundred, it wouldn't be worthwhile.

Also, you'd have to declare who you would be prepared to vote for so there's no guarantee that you'd find anyone in your chosen constituency who is willing to swap.

[stoneyburn hibs]

This kind of chat will not lead to an SNP revival. In fact it's probably one of the reason ls the SNP have had their day ok Scotland. The bitter politics they bring to Scotland is no longer welcome.

What a pile of *****. Ruth would amount to absolutely nothing in Scottish politics if there wasn't the question of an Indy vote. That's it, that's her constant battle cry with absolutely no policy mentioned for Scotland at all. She quite happily went along with the rape clause and she'll do what she's told regarding LBGT and the DUP, despite her protestations.

[McD]

something i notice quite a lot on here from non SNP voters, they title opponents of 'sturgeon' by their proper names...but don't appear to show the same respect to 'sturgeon' , her name is NICOLA, NICOLA sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland, try showing some respect to 'sturgeon' and yi might get a respectful reply

:greengrin






and ruthie babe is still a big windbag


An SNP supporter (possibly yourself, apologies if I'm incorrect), to the a Scottish Labour leader as "dugtail" just a few days ago.

I wholeheartedly agree greed that respect should be shown. In all directions.

[Betty Boop]

An SNP supporter (possibly yourself, apologies if I'm incorrect), to the a Scottish Labour leader as "dugtail" just a few days ago.

I wholeheartedly agree greed that respect should be shown. In all directions.

Ooooft ! :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

An SNP supporter (possibly yourself, apologies if I'm incorrect), to the a Scottish Labour leader as "dugtail" just a few days ago.

I wholeheartedly agree greed that respect should be shown. In all directions.



you are indeed incorrect, apology accepted :agree:





although quite catchy

[SHODAN]

The fact of the matter is that you don't want to admit is more people bothered to get up of their arse and voted to remain in the UK than they did for the EU.

You stated more people voted to remain In the EU than the UK and it was just anther big SNP lie.

I'm not a member of nor do I provide unquestioning support to the SNP. I am more passionate about the EU than independence.

I'll put it another way then. Scotland emphatically voted to both stay in the UK and the EU. One vote was higher by number of votes, one by proportion. As leader of the Scottish and not British Conservatives, shouldn't she be campaigning just as hard for Scotland's interests in both?

The fact that less people voted doesn't change the fact that the result was overwhelmingly in favour of one specific outcome.

[High-On-Hibs]

I'm not a member of nor do I provide unquestioning support to the SNP. I am more passionate about the EU than independence.

I'll put it another way then. Scotland emphatically voted to both stay in the UK and the EU. One vote was higher by number of votes, one by proportion. As leader of the Scottish and not British Conservatives, shouldn't she be campaigning just as hard for Scotland's interests in both?

The fact that less people voted doesn't change the fact that the result was overwhelmingly in favour of one specific outcome.

Exactly. People are quick to point out that only 1.6 million people out of 5.4 million voted for independence and argue that the other 3.8 million were simply happy with the status quo. If they are going to make that kind of argument, then they surely have to apply that same understanding to the EU vote in Scotland, where less that 1/5th of the population voted for Brexit.

[marinello59]

I'll call this interesting from Bella Caledonia because I agree with a lot of it. :greengrin
A thought provoking article no matter your viewpoint.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06/13/build-it-and-they-will-come/

[G B Young]

SNP have taken down their referendum fundraising page. Make of that what you will.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40260769

Interesting to see it had only raised half of its target with a week to go.

[snooky]

SNP have taken down their referendum fundraising page. Make of that what you will.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40260769

Interesting to see it had only raised half of its target with a week to go.

The next Indyref will be the last one for at least 'a generation'. I'm glad it hasn't happened now. Wrong time & wrong reason.
Actually, if I'd been the UK government, I would have pushed for it as it would have failed mainly because people are sick to death of politics and the BS that goes with it. We need at least 2/3 of the country to be on board before indyref2 is called for however, that ratio might never be reached. If that is the case, well so be it.

[Just Alf]

The next Indyref will be the last one for at least 'a generation'. I'm glad it hasn't happened now. Wrong time & wrong reason.
Actually, if I'd been the UK government, I would have pushed for it as it would have failed mainly because people are sick to death of politics and the BS that goes with it. We need at least 2/3 of the country to be on board before indyref2 is called for however, that ratio might never be reached. If that is the case, well so be it.
Agree with this 100%

The Brexit result was a perfectly sensible trigger (assuming one didn't cherry pick the quotes as some do) but, taking account of ALL that was repeatedly said.... The decision was with the electorate.... Unless they move a lot more towards wanting independence in the next year or two as the Brexit negotiations progress then we won't see another vote for some time.... And that's exactly how it should be.

As an aside I think Brexit pushed the SNP into a corner which they haven't really made a good job of getting out of





Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[johnbc70]

I'll call this interesting from Bella Caledonia because I agree with a lot of it. :greengrin
A thought provoking article no matter your viewpoint.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06/13/build-it-and-they-will-come/

Really interesting read, certainly seen a number of behaviours here highlighted in that article.

[hibs0666]

I am struggling to see how WM elections can be used as a gage for opinion regarding the constitutional debate. loads of issues that are not factored in.


EU citizens + 16/17 year olds as mentioned before.
no yes campaigning which is obviously a big factor in generating support
hijacking of every tory/labour voter as being against independence.
Scotgov - pro nationalist seems to be being ignored
lower electorate turn out compared to referendum
2010 SNP only had 6 MPs, what percentage of votes where pro union in that election?
Media


As said before patience is key for the yes movement but it think the recent WM election results are seriously being over played by the liikes of Ruth and others. Could argue that we are at peak scottish Tory and they were up against an SNP with a dismal electoral campaign that refused to talk about independence, Yet once again the SNP returned more Mps than all other 3 party's put together.

To be honest, you're not seeing it because you don't want to see.

[hibs0666]

I'll call this interesting from Bella Caledonia because I agree with a lot of it. :greengrin
A thought provoking article no matter your viewpoint.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06/13/build-it-and-they-will-come/

With such a big majority, why has the SNP governed in such a bland and insipid fashion?

[ronaldo7]

I'll call this interesting from Bella Caledonia because I agree with a lot of it. :greengrin
A thought provoking article no matter your viewpoint.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06/13/build-it-and-they-will-come/


Certainly is.:agree:

[ronaldo7]

SNP have taken down their referendum fundraising page. Make of that what you will.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40260769

Interesting to see it had only raised half of its target with a week to go.

£482,000 is not to be sniffed at.:greengrin

Money is being ring fenced, and will be used when we go again on Indy2

[Betty Boop]

£482,000 is not to be sniffed at.:greengrin

Money is being ring fenced, and will be used when we go again on Indy2


If it's in a generation you might not be here. :greengrin

[marinello59]

£482,000 is not to be sniffed at.:greengrin

Money is being ring fenced, and will be used when we go again on Indy2

Brexit was the perfect trigger for IndyRef2 at the wrong time. On Thursday night I didn't think it was in doubt then again, like many others I did not think that the SNP would lose more than ten seats. Things move fast these days, that's for sure.

[pacoluna]

If it's in a generation you might not be here. :greengrin

I and others will be the fruits of their labour :D

[ronaldo7]

If it's in a generation you might not be here. :greengrin

:faf::greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Brexit was the perfect trigger for IndyRef2 at the wrong time. On Thursday night I didn't think it was in doubt then again, like many others I did not think that the SNP would lose more than ten seats. Things move fast these days, that's for sure.

They certainly do.:greengrin

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-knife-edgers/

[snooky]

If it's in a generation you might not be here. :greengrin

I'm almost certain I won't. I'm about to hit my biblical max. as it is.

[Jonnyboy]

Absolutely. You can't attribute the Tories winning a dozen extra seats and racking up double digit gains in almost every other Scottish seat to massed ranks of Labour voters voting Tory. That just wouldn't happen. The truth the SNP don't want to acknowledge is that voters find a lot to like about the Scottish Tories, in particular the extraordinary job Ruth Davidson has done in making them highly electable for the first time in many years.

By doing things her way, Davidson has effectively kept the Tories in government and they should seriously consider a more senior role for her. This quote from the weekend sums up why the Tories did so well in Scotland and so poorly elsewhere:

"When Theresa May was in Edinburgh, sharing a stage with Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives had so much energy you could plug her into the National Grid and there would be no need for a Winter Fuel Allowance. The contrast between the two women was painful. One brittle, stilted and awkward, the other likeable and bouncing with energy. No way could Ruth's fierce eloquence be schooled by special advisers; it gushes from a wellspring of deeply held beliefs. 'I want what she's having' is how Davidson makes you feel."

You may be right but what I can't get my head round is that thousands of people decided to vote for the party that came up with the rape clause. RD was woeful in trying to sidestep every question she was asked on it and resorted to saying that the SNP government had the power to amend it rather than saying it's an abhorrent tax in the first place

[G B Young]

£482,000 is not to be sniffed at.:greengrin

Money is being ring fenced, and will be used when we go again on Indy2

When do you think that would be? As I've suggested before, the first, albeit small, signs of a Labour revival in Scotland must be more of a long-term concern to the SNP than the big increase in the Tory vote. If Scotland were to settle into an SNP v Tory political landscape then they'd always be confident of securing the majority of Scottish seats at both Holyrood and Westminster. But now that Corbyn's influence seems finally to be creeping over the border, his 'anti-austerity/politics of hope' message of is too close to the SNP's mantra for comfort and you have to wonder whether more and more lapsed Labour voters won't start to wonder if leaving the union is actually necessary after all. Coupled with the rejuvenated Scottish Tories, the SNP could find itself squeezed back down to size and lacking anything like the momentum to revive the independence campaign.

How, then, are they likely to play this? Park indyref2 for at least a few years and focus on proving to the electorate they're about more than that? As we've seen in the space of a week, the political landscape can change remarkably fast and independence might seem appealing to many Scottish voters again a few years down the line. It would be a risky move if Labour's momentum is maintained, but trying to force the independence issue at this moment in time would surely be foolhardy.

[snooky]

Really interesting read, certainly seen a number of behaviours here highlighted in that article.

Good 'independent' article however, I disagree with some of the assertions.

[ronaldo7]

When do you think that would be? As I've suggested before, the first, albeit small, signs of a Labour revival in Scotland must be more of a long-term concern to the SNP than the big increase in the Tory vote. If Scotland were to settle into an SNP v Tory political landscape then they'd always be confident of securing the majority of Scottish seats at both Holyrood and Westminster. But now that Corbyn's influence seems finally to be creeping over the border, his 'anti-austerity/politics of hope' message of is too close to the SNP's mantra for comfort and you have to wonder whether more and more lapsed Labour voters won't start to wonder if leaving the union is actually necessary after all. Coupled with the rejuvenated Scottish Tories, the SNP could find itself squeezed back down to size and lacking anything like the momentum to revive the independence campaign.

How, then, are they likely to play this? Park indyref2 for at least a few years and focus on proving to the electorate they're about more than that? As we've seen in the space of a week, the political landscape can change remarkably fast and independence might seem appealing to many Scottish voters again a few years down the line. It would be a risky move if Labour's momentum is maintained, but trying to force the independence issue at this moment in time would surely be foolhardy.

Time for cool heads(not mine):greengrin

I've seen it reported that May has said their won't be an Indyref in this Parliament. I'd let her take a lead in the whole thing, and if she keeps refusing, that's a bonus. Scots are thrawn when it comes to being told what to do and when.

Let May take the lead on Brexit with the DUP in tow. When it goes mammarys skywards. It will be our turn.

I should also have mentioned, we already have a mandate for Indyref2 in the bag. Parliament voted for it.:wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

With such a big majority, why has the SNP governed in such a bland and insipid fashion?
The SNP have only had a majority in 1 Parliament.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

You may be right but what I can't get my head round is that thousands of people decided to vote for the party that came up with the rape clause. RD was woeful in trying to sidestep every question she was asked on it and resorted to saying that the SNP government had the power to amend it rather than saying it's an abhorrent tax in the first place

You may not agree, but I think there's a significant proportion of the Scottish electorate (even those who don't vote Tory) who don't see the Scottish Tories as being cut from quite the same cloth as the wider party. I think our nation has always been more conservative (with a small c) than we care to admit (as evidenced by the 2014 referendum vote) and while it's half a century since the Tories could actually command a majority in Scotland, it was only post-Thatcher that they became virtually unelectable here.

I think it's become clear since last week that Davidson was shackled to a significant extent by May's (now sacked) inner circle who vetoed a lot of what she wanted to focus on in Scotland during the election campaign. In fact, I read that the Scottish Tories felt they could have secured a couple more seats had it not been for such interference. Davidson was, rightly, keen to keep the anti-referendum message to the fore and reportedly did her best to fend off an insistence that she adopt the disastrous 'May as mother of the nation' approach from Tory HQ.

As we've seen since last Thursday, Davidson's profile is a lot higher having effectively proved herself the party's saviour.

[Jonnyboy]

You may not agree, but I think there's a significant proportion of the Scottish electorate (even those who don't vote Tory) who don't see the Scottish Tories as being cut from quite the same cloth as the wider party. I think our nation has always been more conservative (with a small c) than we care to admit (as evidenced by the 2014 referendum vote) and while it's half a century since the Tories could actually command a majority in Scotland, it was only post-Thatcher that they became virtually unelectable here.

I think it's become clear since last week that Davidson was shackled to a significant extent by May's (now sacked) inner circle who vetoed a lot of what she wanted to focus on in Scotland during the election campaign. In fact, I read that the Scottish Tories felt they could have secured a couple more seats had it not been for such interference. Davidson was, rightly, keen to keep the anti-referendum message to the fore and reportedly did her best to fend off an insistence that she adopt the disastrous 'May as mother of the nation' approach from Tory HQ.

As we've seen since last Thursday, Davidson's profile is a lot higher having effectively proved herself the party's saviour.

Notwithstanding all of that, RD did not condemn the policy and that, in my view, was contemptible

[johnbc70]

Time for cool heads(not mine):greengrin

I've seen it reported that May has said their won't be an Indyref in this Parliament. I'd let her take a lead in the whole thing, and if she keeps refusing, that's a bonus. Scots are thrawn when it comes to being told what to do and when.

Let May take the lead on Brexit with the DUP in tow. When it goes mammarys skywards. It will be our turn.

I should also have mentioned, we already have a mandate for Indyref2 in the bag. Parliament voted for it.:wink:

May won't keep refusing because it's unlikely she will be asked again any time soon. Can you seriously see Sturgeon asking for another Referendum after last week's results. You might not like it but it's dead for a while yet. May will be long gone when Indyref 2 becomes a serious issue again, and I suspect Sturgeon will be as well.

[snooky]

Time for cool heads(not mine):greengrin

I've seen it reported that May has said their won't be an Indyref in this Parliament. I'd let her take a lead in the whole thing, and if she keeps refusing, that's a bonus. Scots are thrawn when it comes to being told what to do and when.

Let May take the lead on Brexit with the DUP in tow. When it goes mammarys skywards. It will be our turn.

I should also have mentioned, we already have a mandate for Indyref2 in the bag. Parliament voted for it.:wink:

Quite aside from all the other political chaos, my biggest worry is this could undermine the progress made between the two sides in NI since the GFA.
WTF are the Tories thinking of? Are they prepared to put all that at risk just to get a majority?

[Glory Lurker]

Quite aside from all the other political chaos, my biggest worry is this could undermine the progress made between the two sides in NI since the GFA.
WTF are the Tories thinking of? Are they prepared to put all that at risk just to get a majority?

I think Theresa May is. She is obsessed with power.

For all the triumphalism that's come from the runners up in the Scottish contribution to the GE, the result overall is yet another example of any democratic case for the union being dead. Not only does Scotland once again get a government it soundly rejected, but now a bunch of NI extremists are getting a shout on our future, too.

[easty]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gibbygibbo1/status/874414759357100033?s=08

[lord bunberry]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gibbygibbo1/status/874414759357100033?s=08
You couldn't make it up :greengrin

[DaveF]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gibbygibbo1/status/874414759357100033?s=08

Please tell me that's not real.

[snooky]

Correct me if I'm wrong. The Jacobite uprisings were in the 18th century so the gentleman is a tad off the mark :coffee:

[CropleyWasGod]

Correct me if I'm wrong. The Jacobite uprisings were in the 18th century so the gentleman is a tad off the mark :coffee:

He may be suggesting that, in the 17th Century, Salmond was a man ahead of his time. :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

Scottish unemployment figures at lowest for 25 years, good news

[JeMeSouviens]

Correct me if I'm wrong. The Jacobite uprisings were in the 18th century so the gentleman is a tad off the mark :coffee:

The uprisings in Scotland were 18th century, but anyone who supported James VII's claim over King Billy & his missus (James' daughter Mary) was a Jacobite. (James being an anglicised version of the Latin Jacobus).

[Moulin Yarns]

The uprisings in Scotland were 18th century, but anyone who supported James VII's claim over King Billy & his missus (James' daughter Mary) was a Jacobite. (James being an anglicised version of the Latin Jacobus).

That looks like a quote straight out of 'Caledonication' I'm sure I read that bit on the bus this morning :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

That looks like a quote straight out of 'Caledonication' I'm sure I read that bit on the bus this morning :greengrin

Oi! I write all my own pish thank you very much! :grr: :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

Scottish unemployment figures at lowest for 25 years, good news

It's because we're part of the UK. As soon as those figures fall, it will be because of the Scottish Government.....

[snooky]

The uprisings in Scotland were 18th century, but anyone who supported James VII's claim over King Billy & his missus (James' daughter Mary) was a Jacobite. (James being an anglicised version of the Latin Jacobus).

Thanks JMS.
Apologies to the gentleman in the video. It would appear he has more knowledge than I re. the history of the late 1600's.

[johnbc70]

Reports Sturgeon is going to announce she is parking plans for IndyRef2.

I think it's dead in the water for a generation which was what was supposed to happen after the last one.

When will it happen? Sometime around 2050 maybe.

[High-On-Hibs]

Reports Sturgeon is going to announce she is parking plans for IndyRef2.

I think it's dead in the water for a generation which was what was supposed to happen after the last one.

When will it happen? Sometime around 2050 maybe.

It was in the Daily Record, it must be true right? :wink:

[johnbc70]

It was in the Daily Record, it must be true right? :wink:

Was in the Herald. So does that make it true or not? Also in lots of other papers as well.

[lucky]

If it's held before brexit, leave will lose heavily. She has no choice but to wait a few years. I can't see her even still being FM after the next Scottish parliamentary elections so it won't be her call

[High-On-Hibs]

Was in the Herald. So does that make it true or not? Also in lots of other papers as well.

The SNP stance has been to hold a referendum after the terms of brexit are known, they haven't shifted from this position at all. The media headlines are all hyperbole for those expecting a referendum right here and now.

[johnbc70]

The SNP stance has been to hold a referendum after the terms of brexit are known, they haven't shifted from this position at all. The media headlines are all hyperbole for those expecting a referendum right here and now.

Why not say that in the first place then, instead of some reference to it only being in the DR, when clearly it was being reported widely over numerous media outlets.

[High-On-Hibs]

Why not say that in the first place then, instead of some reference to it only being in the DR, when clearly it was being reported widely over numerous media outlets.

Because it's something that you should already know. The SNP have made it clear enough times already. It's not their fault if people just don't want to listen.

[johnbc70]

Because it's something that you should already know. The SNP have made it clear enough times already. It's not their fault if people just don't want to listen.

Yes how silly of me, I wish I had your insight and your particular brand of communication skills. The rest of us clearly have to step up to your level.

[High-On-Hibs]

Yes how silly of me, I wish I had your insight and your particular brand of communication skills. The rest of us clearly have to step up to your level.

Either you already knew, but were just trying to stir the pot anyway. Or you genuinely didn't know, despite if being repeated constantly. Also, who is "us"? You're the only person this seems to be lost on.

[JeMeSouviens]

NS has repeatedly stated that single market membership (and preferably for the whole UK) would be her preferred compromise to see off the need for Indyref2.

There's a half a chance that this could happen now. It wouldn't please the SNP's activist base who are desperate for another crack at a referendum but it certainly wouldn't be a u-turn or climbdown if Indyref2 is parked in those circumstances. It certainly shouldn't be written off at this stage. The SNP should be combining as much as possible at Westminster and Holyrood with the other pro Europeans and opponents of quasi-suicidal national economic self harm to get the softiest, squidgiest Brexit they can. I hope they are.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Because it's something that you should already know. The SNP have made it clear enough times already. It's not their fault if people just don't want to listen.



some just need confirmation


a few dozen times

[ronaldo7]

some just need confirmation


a few dozen times

And some more than that, it seems.

[marinello59]

some just need confirmation


a few dozen times

There has been a shift in emphasis on her position though.

[johnbc70]

There has been a shift in emphasis on her position though.

Yes there has, but usual crowd are quick to shout you down and point out how stupid you are.

That's fine though as it will come to the point that these people will only be debating with each other and agreeing with each other. Maybe that suits them.

[ronaldo7]

There has been a shift in emphasis on her position though.

What would that be?

[High-On-Hibs]

There has been a shift in emphasis on her position though.

Really? What have you heard from her directly to suggest this? Or are you just lapping up more spin in the papers?

[marinello59]

Really? What have you heard from her directly to suggest this? Or are you just lapping up more spin in the papers?

That's right. Unlike you I am totally incapable of thinking for myself.

[steakbake]

What a complete mess. Brexit is looking like it'll be a total sh*tstorm. May just handed 1bn to the DUP who would probably have backed her anyway. Up here, a sizeable number of people are relieved that the lifeboat is being put into storage.

[lord bunberry]

What a complete mess. Brexit is looking like it'll be a total sh*tstorm. May just handed 1bn to the DUP who would probably have backed her anyway. Up here, a sizeable number of people are relieved that the lifeboat is being put into storage.

Agreed, what a mess. If ever I came onto money, I'd be off like a shot.

[steakbake]

Agreed, what a mess. If ever I came onto money, I'd be off like a shot.

You and me both, my friend. My other half is Polish and we were seriously talking about whether we could do living there. It's appealing - would just have to find the right place.

I'm not sure I can really handle being around as Scotland is stiffed while a big number of us shrug their shoulders. Most outsiders looking in that I've ever met are baffled.

[High-On-Hibs]

That's right. Unlike you I am totally incapable of thinking for myself.

Thanks for once again, not answering a question I put forward. At this rate, you'll get as good as Theresa May.

[Hibrandenburg]

Agreed, what a mess. If ever I came onto money, I'd be off like a shot.

I'm skint but I bolted anyway.

[marinello59]

Thanks for once again, not answering a question I put forward. At this rate, you'll get as good as Theresa May.

The change in emphasis? It's subtle and is just my interpretation. There seems to be a less hardline attitude towards Indyref2 and a greater emphasis being put on securing a better Brexit deal. I suspect that her previously announced timetable will not be quite so rigid but we shall see. Keeping all those who joined the party in order to get Indpendence yesterday will be hard. I'm happy to see her play the long game though, there are still a lot of people to convince if Yes is to win. Just my ill informed tuppence worth of course.

[steakbake]

I'm skint but I bolted anyway.

When did you make the move?

[Hibrandenburg]

When did you make the move?

35 years ago, I smelt a rat.

[johnbc70]

Really? What have you heard from her directly to suggest this? Or are you just lapping up more spin in the papers?

Well she is making a statement today in about an hour. I assume it will be along the lines of nothing has changed, the media don't listen and.....and well that's it.

[steakbake]

35 years ago, I smelt a rat.

That's some foresight!

[marinello59]

What would that be?

I gave my answer in post 2363.
Your leader filled in the details for you today.

[ronaldo7]

I gave my answer in post 2363.
Your leader filled in the details for you today.

I saw that thanks. That's why I never chased you up on it. ��

She's your leader tae, ye ken.:aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

That's some foresight!

Not really when you think who was prime minister then. :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

Well she is making a statement today in about an hour. I assume it will be along the lines of nothing has changed, the media don't listen and.....and well that's it.

:aok:

[G B Young]

Good to see indyref2 put on hold, hopefully for good. Should have been taken off the table entirely for the duration of this Scottish Parliament but that would have been too much of a climbdown for the SNP. Nevertheless, by keeping it on the back burner they're actually playing into Ruth Davidson's hands. She'll be quietly pleased it remains a cudgel to beat the FM with.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Good to see indyref2 put on hold, hopefully for good. Should have been taken off the table entirely for the duration of this Scottish Parliament but that would have been too much of a climbdown for the SNP. Nevertheless, by keeping it on the back burner they're actually playing into Ruth Davidson's hands. She'll be quietly pleased it remains a cudgel to beat the FM with.

Quietly pleased ? She'll be ******* delighted. Without that she has no purpose.

[johnbc70]

Good to see indyref2 put on hold, hopefully for good. Should have been taken off the table entirely for the duration of this Scottish Parliament but that would have been too much of a climbdown for the SNP. Nevertheless, by keeping it on the back burner they're actually playing into Ruth Davidson's hands. She'll be quietly pleased it remains a cudgel to beat the FM with.

So it turns out she did have something to say and things have changed - despite what many said on here.....

I am pretty sure Sturgeon and May will be well out the picture if we ever have another referendum, cannot see it happening for another 20/30 years and even then I am not sure what the catalyst would be for that.

Would be interested in hearing from our resident Indy supporters when they think IndyRef2 will happen and why..?

[marinello59]

Really? What have you heard from her directly to suggest this? Or are you just lapping up more spin in the papers?


So it turns out she did have something to say and things have changed - despite what many said on here.....

I am pretty sure Sturgeon and May will be well out the picture if we ever have another referendum, cannot see it happening for another 20/30 years and even then I am not sure what the catalyst would be for that.

Would be interested in hearing from our resident Indy supporters when they think IndyRef2 will happen and why..?

I still think and hope it will happen within the lifetime of this Scottish Parliament depending on what sort of Brexit deal we get.
High on Hibs probably thinks Sturgeon didn't know what she was saying as she has been lapping up the spin from the papers. :greengrin

[lucky]

The FM never really said a lot but Indy2 might be delayed by 6 months from her original position. Don't think a lot has changed but then again neither has public opinion the country remains split 45/55 give or take a % point.

[lord bunberry]

Independence might well be looked at as a safety net by some people post brexit. The problem lots of people are going to have if brexit turns out to be a disaster is swallowing their pride and taking the best option. As much as I want independence I hope it doesn't come this way as it will mean things have got pretty bad.

[ronaldo7]

Mandate in place, timescale moved to accommodate Brexit timetable and possible transition period. What's not to like.

Best bit of her speech today.

So the challenge for all of us who believe that Scotland should be independent is to get on with the hard work of making and winning that case - on all of its merits - and in a way that is relevant to the changes, challenges, hopes and opportunities we face now and in the years ahead.
That is what we will do.
Of course we won't do it on our own - because the independence case is bigger than us too.
We*will engage openly and inclusively with, and work as part of, the wider independence movement.
We will seek to support, engage and grow that movement, and build the case that having decisions made by us - not for us - offers the best future for our country.
We will make, and seek to win the case that governing ourselves is the best way to tackle the challenges we face as a country - from building a better balanced and more sustainable economy, to growing our population, strengthening our democracy, and tackling deep seated problems of poverty and inequality.

https://t.co/IkfWXmCFKa

[High-On-Hibs]

So it turns out she did have something to say and things have changed - despite what many said on here.....

Please enlighten me as to what has changed?

Before the general election, the SNP said there would be a referendum after the terms of Brexit are clear. Now they're saying there will be a referendum after the terms of brexit are clear.

Obviously the date for an independence referendum will vary, depending on just how long this Brexit fiasco carries on. But the SNP obviously has no control over that date, nor do they have any control or input over the brexit process itself.

But please, tell me what has changed. Explain how their stance has changed now over before? Because all i'm hearing is the same thing as before.

[johnbc70]

Mandate in place, timescale moved to accommodate Brexit timetable and possible transition period. What's not to like.

Best bit of her speech today.

So the challenge for all of us who believe that Scotland should be independent is to get on with the hard work of making and winning that case - on all of its merits - and in a way that is relevant to the changes, challenges, hopes and opportunities we face now and in the years ahead.
That is what we will do.
Of course we won't do it on our own - because the independence case is bigger than us too.
We*will engage openly and inclusively with, and work as part of, the wider independence movement.
We will seek to support, engage and grow that movement, and build the case that having decisions made by us - not for us - offers the best future for our country.
We will make, and seek to win the case that governing ourselves is the best way to tackle the challenges we face as a country - from building a better balanced and more sustainable economy, to growing our population, strengthening our democracy, and tackling deep seated problems of poverty and inequality.

https://t.co/IkfWXmCFKa

She only made today's statement on the back of the disastrous election vote, if that never happened we would not have seen today's announcement.

You have been pretty quiet on the election result, or maybe I have missed it. So just why in your opinion did the SNP lose so many seats in Scotland?

[High-On-Hibs]

She only made today's statement on the back of the disastrous election vote, if that never happened we would not have seen today's announcement.

You have been pretty quiet on the election result, or maybe I have missed it. So just why in your opinion did the SNP lose so many seats in Scotland?

You call it a disastrous election result, yet its their 2nd best result in their entire political history. Despite all the unionist die hards banding together and voting for whatever turd was best placed to "beat the SNP candidate". The SNP still won the election in Scotland. Something that seems to be lost on a number of people.

[ronaldo7]

She only made today's statement on the back of the disastrous election vote, if that never happened we would not have seen today's announcement.

You have been pretty quiet on the election result, or maybe I have missed it. So just why in your opinion did the SNP lose so many seats in Scotland?

If my aunty had baws, she'd be my Uncle.

You missed my happiness of winning the last election. Sorry to hear that bud.:aok: I've been over it. Now is not the time.:wink:

You could always go with the Colonel's view that she won the election, and will stop a second Indy ref. Right?

[johnbc70]

Please enlighten me as to what has changed?

Before the general election, the SNP said there would be a referendum after the terms of Brexit are clear. Now they're saying there will be a referendum after the terms of brexit are clear.

Obviously the date for an independence referendum will vary, depending on just how long this Brexit fiasco carries on. But the SNP obviously has no control over that date, nor do they have any control or input over the brexit process itself.

But please, tell me what has changed. Explain how their stance has changed now over before? Because all i'm hearing is the same thing as before.

What has changed?

Is a delay in her plans a change? It sounds like a change, smells like a change, looks like a change.......so it must be a change!

Of did she make an announcement and say nothing has changed?

[High-On-Hibs]

What has changed?

Is a delay in her plans a change? It sounds like a change, smells like a change, looks like a change.......so it must be a change!

Of did she make an announcement and say nothing has changed?

The delay will only be a reflection of the delay in the Brexit process. It's not a delay that the SNP have set themselves. There was never any set in stone timetable given for a 2nd referendum. The previous date that was given was based on the assumption that the Brexit process would be going according to schedule. Obviously any delays in that process will delay the process of another independence referendum.

It's not that hard to understand.

[marinello59]

The delay will only be a reflection of the delay in the Brexit process. It's not a delay that the SNP have set themselves. There was never any set in stone timetable given for a 2nd referendum. The previous date that was given was based on the assumption that the Brexit process would be going according to schedule. Obviously any delays in that process will delay the process of another independence referendum.

It's not that hard to understand.

Really?

[High-On-Hibs]

Really? :greengrin

Well perhaps for some. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

What has changed?

Is a delay in her plans a change? It sounds like a change, smells like a change, looks like a change.......so it must be a change!

Of did she make an announcement and say nothing has changed?

Willie Rennie disagrees with you.:greengrin

His words,

"To be clear.

The First Minister has changed absolutely nothing. She has not budged an inch from the position she set out in March".

[marinello59]

Well perhaps for some. :wink:

Severe myopia doesn't help. Have you tried specsavers? :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

Willie Rennie disagrees with you.:greengrin

His words,

"To be clear.

The First Minister has changed absolutely nothing. She has not budged an inch from the position she set out in March".

aaaaaand Ruth Davidson aaaaaaaand Kezia Dugdale aaaaaaaand every other MSP including the SNP MSPs.

[marinello59]

Willie Rennie disagrees with you.:greengrin

His words,

"To be clear.

The First Minister has changed absolutely nothing. She has not budged an inch from the position she set out in March".

We both know why he said that R and we both know there has been a shift. I'm with you though. I think it's a good thing. There is work to be done and we now have a little more time to do it.

[High-On-Hibs]

Severe myopia doesn't help. Have you tried specsavers? :greengrin


We both know why he said that R and we both know there has been a shift. I'm with you though. I think it's a good thing. There is work to be done and we now have a little more time to do it.

Damn my short sightedness. :boo hoo:

Perhaps you could use your incredibly deep insight to tell me what the original date was and what date it has been changed to? You'll need some incredible foresight to go with that insight however, because unless you're psychic, you'll have no idea just how long the UK Government is going to drag this brexit process out for. :aok:

[johnbc70]

The delay will only be a reflection of the delay in the Brexit process. It's not a delay that the SNP have set themselves. There was never any set in stone timetable given for a 2nd referendum. The previous date that was given was based on the assumption that the Brexit process would be going according to schedule. Obviously any delays in that process will delay the process of another independence referendum.

It's not that hard to understand.

Make your mind up, first there was no change then you talk about a delay.

[marinello59]

Damn my short sightedness. :boo hoo:

Perhaps you could use your incredibly deep insight to tell me what the original date was and what date it has been changed to? You'll need some incredible foresight to go with that insight however, because unless you're psychic, you'll have no idea just how long the UK Government is going to drag this brexit process out for. :aok:

You demanded an answer to a question last night which I gave you. You appear to have ignored it though. Feel free to go back and read it. Unlike yourself I don't claim any great insight, I just offer opinion on the evidence in front of me. What I won't be doing is letting Willie Rennie or Ruth Davidson tell me what to think of the statement today.

[High-On-Hibs]

You demanded an answer to a question last night which I gave you. You appear to have ignored it though. Feel free to go back and read it. Unlike yourself I don't claim any great insight, I just offer opinion on the evidence in front of me. What I won't be doing is letting Willie Rennie or Ruth Davidson telling me what to think of the statement today.

Then by all means, present the evidence. But it seems to me that you're disregarding other evidence that doesn't fit into your own script of events while failing to provide any of your own.

[ronaldo7]

We both know why he said that R and we both know there has been a shift. I'm with you though. I think it's a good thing. There is work to be done and we now have a little more time to do it.

It was in jest 59.:greengrin I mean, who the **** cares what Wee Wullie Rennie has to say.

Grassroots are starting to sprout again.:greengrin

[marinello59]

Then by all means, present the evidence. But it seems to me that you're disregarding other evidence that doesn't fit into your own script of events while failing to provide any of your own.

Which part of my post from last night do you Disagree with. It's only opinion as I said. Perhaps you could give yours.
Anyway up until today the plan was to hold a referundum between Autumn 2018 when we would have a clear idea of what Brexit looked like and March. 2019 when Brexit actually occurs. That has now changed to sometime after March 2019. Recognising this change a rather disgruntled Patrick Harvie of the Greens has questtioned why we now have to wait until Brexit is concluded before the people of Scotland have a chance to decide their future. You should perhaps tell him though that nothing has changed.

[marinello59]

It was in jest 59.:greengrin I mean, who the **** cares what Wee Wullie Rennie has to say.

Grassroots are starting to sprout again.:greengrin

I got it was in jest R. :greengrin

[johnbc70]

There is work to be done and we now have a little more time to do it.

You must worry when even 2 Indy supporters can't agree. You have been very reasoned and seem willing to acknowledge there is a lot of work to be done, that includes listening to and not dismissing those who may have opposite views.

Some it seem think the way to independence is shouting down those who don't have the same view and opinions as them, some seem to think even a slight consolidation in position must be a weakness so refuse to acknowledge it happened, some just seem blind and will agree with everything the SNP machine throws out there.

At least you seem willing to listen.

[High-On-Hibs]

Which part of my post from last night do you Disagree with. It's only opinion as I said. Perhaps you could give yours.
Anyway up until today the plan was to hold a referundum between Autumn 2018 when we would have a clear idea of what Brexit looked like and March. 2019 when Brexit actually occurs. That has now changed to sometime after March 2019. Recognising this change a rather disgruntled Patrick Harvie of the Greens has questtioned why we now have to wait until Brexit is concluded before the people of Scotland have a chance to decide their future. You should perhaps tell him though that nothing has changed.

Because as i've said already, the date that was suggested was based on the end date of the brexit negotiations. You're saying the date has been changed to "sometime after March 2019". What date then? Because as far as i'm concerned, the date will be determined by the end of the brexit process. The SNP themselves can't help it if the brexit process takes longer than originally set out. Their plan has consistantly been to ask the question after the brexit outlook becomes clear. There position on this hasn't changed at all.
As for Patrick Harvie, he's "disgruntled" over something that was always the case to begin with. The plan was always to hold another referendum AFTER brexit was concluded. It's impossible to put an exact date on that. Because nobody knows when that will actually be.

Opinions are fine, but i'm not sharing an opinion and i'm just pointing out something that should be farley obvious. There is no set date for a referendum, there never was. The time table for another referendum isn't set in stone and is based entirely on when the brexit process will end.

[High-On-Hibs]

You must worry when even 2 Indy supporters can't agree. You have been very reasoned and seem willing to acknowledge there is a lot of work to be done, that includes listening to and not dismissing those who may have opposite views.

Some it seem think the way to independence is shouting down those who don't have the same view and opinions as them, some seem to think even a slight consolidation in position must be a weakness so refuse to acknowledge it happened, some just seem blind and will agree with everything the SNP machine throws out there.

At least you seem willing to listen.

Or perhaps you're just looking at it in your own skewed way. Claiming that people are being "shouted down", doesn't make it true. It's a bit hard to "shout people down" on an internet forum to be honest.

But hey, the media machine is throwing a whole bunch of crap out there about a referendum being taking completely off the table and Nicola Sturgeon doing massive u-turns. Perhaps you just prefer that type of machine over the "SNP machine".

[johnbc70]

Or perhaps you're just looking at it in your own skewed way. Claiming that people are being "shouted down", doesn't make it true. It's a bit hard to "shout people down" on an internet forum to be honest.

But hey, the media machine is throwing a whole bunch of crap out there about a referendum being taking completely off the table and Nicola Sturgeon doing massive u-turns. Perhaps you just prefer that type of machine over the "SNP machine".

Do you believe MI5 rigged the independence vote, I know some think that.

[marinello59]

Because as i've said already, the date that was suggested was based on the end date of the brexit negotiations. You're saying the date has been changed to "sometime after March 2019". What date then? Because as far as i'm concerned, the date will be determined by the end of the brexit process. The SNP themselves can't help it if the brexit process takes longer than originally set out. Their plan has consistantly been to ask the question after the brexit outlook becomes clear. There position on this hasn't changed at all.
As for Patrick Harvie, he's "disgruntled" over something that was always the case to begin with. The plan was always to hold another referendum AFTER brexit was concluded. It's impossible to put an exact date on that. Because nobody knows when that will actually be.

Opinions are fine, but i'm not sharing an opinion and i'm just pointing out something that should be farley obvious. There is no set date for a referendum, there never was. The time table for another referendum isn't set in stone and is based entirely on when the brexit process will end.

Are you being serious? The SNP's proposed referundum timetable has been changed. The Brexit timetable has not been changed. Apart from you and Ruth Davidson most people seem to recognise that the brakes were applied today.

[ronaldo7]

Are you being serious? The SNP's proposed referundum timetable has been changed. The Brexit timetable has not been changed. Apart from you and Ruth Davidson most people seem to recognise that the brakes were applied today.

Not according to this.:greengrin

https://wingsoverscotland.com/up-down-and-turned-around/

[marinello59]

Not according to this.:greengrin

https://wingsoverscotland.com/up-down-and-turned-around/

Can I change that to most reasonable people would recognise that the brakes were applied today then?:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

You call it a disastrous election result, yet its their 2nd best result in their entire political history. Despite all the unionist die hards banding together and voting for whatever turd was best placed to "beat the SNP candidate". The SNP still won the election in Scotland. Something that seems to be lost on a number of people.

The SNP only won 36.9% of the votes, a drop of 13.1 percentage points.

That's why they lost 21 seats.

Had their support remained at 2015 levels, they would have seen off all challengers. But it didn't.

I'm certain that the SNP leadership will face up to those realities and work on remedying them, because if they don't, but instead, like you, they continue to blame a non-existent tactical voting campaign, it'll be even worse next time.

Indy is in the long grass for the time being and the likelihood of a "soft" Brexit won't help bring it back.

[RyeSloan]

Mandate in place, timescale moved to accommodate Brexit timetable and possible transition period. What's not to like.

Best bit of her speech today.

So the challenge for all of us who believe that Scotland should be independent is to get on with the hard work of making and winning that case - on all of its merits - and in a way that is relevant to the changes, challenges, hopes and opportunities we face now and in the years ahead.
That is what we will do.
Of course we won't do it on our own - because the independence case is bigger than us too.
We*will engage openly and inclusively with, and work as part of, the wider independence movement.
We will seek to support, engage and grow that movement, and build the case that having decisions made by us - not for us - offers the best future for our country.
We will make, and seek to win the case that governing ourselves is the best way to tackle the challenges we face as a country - from building a better balanced and more sustainable economy, to growing our population, strengthening our democracy, and tackling deep seated problems of poverty and inequality.

https://t.co/IkfWXmCFKa

Whatever happened to the fabled working group or whatever it was called that was meant to be working on putting some meat on Nicola's metaphorical bones?

[ronaldo7]

Whatever happened to the fabled working group or whatever it was called that was meant to be working on putting some meat on Nicola's metaphorical bones?

Don't worry, they're still working.:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Independence might well be looked at as a safety net by some people post brexit. The problem lots of people are going to have if brexit turns out to be a disaster is swallowing their pride and taking the best option. As much as I want independence I hope it doesn't come this way as it will mean things have got pretty bad.

:agree: good summary.

[JeMeSouviens]

So it turns out she did have something to say and things have changed - despite what many said on here.....

I am pretty sure Sturgeon and May will be well out the picture if we ever have another referendum, cannot see it happening for another 20/30 years and even then I am not sure what the catalyst would be for that.

Would be interested in hearing from our resident Indy supporters when they think IndyRef2 will happen and why..?

I think it will only happen if the polling supports it, so either:

- a total Brexit **** up has folk diving for the lifeboat, which would be a grim scenario all round, Indyref in 3-5 years from now. The consequences of another No in those circumstances don't bear thinking about.
- support builds over the medium term, Indyref in 10-15 years from now.

With Hibs having won the cup, I still think I will die having my own country to live in first, and it will have proved a success.

[High-On-Hibs]

The SNP only won 36.9% of the votes, a drop of 13.1 percentage points.

That's why they lost 21 seats.

Had their support remained at 2015 levels, they would have seen off all challengers. But it didn't.

I'm certain that the SNP leadership will face up to those realities and work on remedying them, because if they don't, but instead, like you, they continue to blame a non-existent tactical voting campaign, it'll be even worse next time.

Indy is in the long grass for the time being and the likelihood of a "soft" Brexit won't help bring it back.

If the SNP had retained their vote share from 2015, then it would have been outrageous, considering that the outcome of 2015 was nothing short of a freak miracle. If they had of however won 35 seats in 2015, it would have still been considered a major success for them.

But it doesn't matter anyway. Facts are facts. The SNP won both elections in Scotland.

Also, not sure how you can say there was a "non-existent" tactical voting campaign when the statistics clearly show otherwise. But if it suits your point of view to ignore this, then carry on.

[High-On-Hibs]

Do you believe MI5 rigged the independence vote, I know some think that.

What I "believe" is irrelevant. As we'll never actually know one way or the other.

[marinello59]

If the SNP had retained their vote share from 2015, then it would have been outrageous, considering that the outcome of 2015 was nothing short of a freak miracle. If they had of however won 35 seats in 2015, it would have still been considered a major success for them.

But it doesn't matter anyway. Facts are facts. The SNP won both elections in Scotland.

Also, not sure how you can say there was a "non-existent" tactical voting campaign when the statistics clearly show otherwise. But if it suits your point of view to ignore this, then carry on.

I think we had this conversation before where you simply ignored any evidence to the contrary which was presented to you so no point in going back over that. :greengrin
So if you are right and the SNP lost seats due to tactical voting who did the 400 000 voters who deserted the SNP for other parties vote tactically for? Labours vote increased and the Tories increased dramatically whilst everybody elses went down so it looks like they made a 'tactical' decision to vote for those two parties. Why do you think that was?

[Slavers]

The independence lifeboat. What utter delusion. Where would it take Scotland? Who knows just hold on tight Nicola is at the wheel wearing the only life jacket on board!

[Hibbyradge]

If the SNP had retained their vote share from 2015, then it would have been outrageous, considering that the outcome of 2015 was nothing short of a freak miracle. If they had of however won 35 seats in 2015, it would have still been considered a major success for them.

But it doesn't matter anyway. Facts are facts. The SNP won both elections in Scotland.

Also, not sure how you can say there was a "non-existent" tactical voting campaign when the statistics clearly show otherwise. But if it suits your point of view to ignore this, then carry on.

Yes, the SNP won again, and I'm pleased they did, but how long is the "if they'd won x number of seats in 2015" comfort blanket going to last? Until it's only 20 seats? Or 12? Going from 56 seats to 35 wasn't just a wake up call, it was a kicking. it was a 37.5% loss.

If Labour had suffered such a loss, their seats would have dropped from 232 to 145. Even when Corbyn was 20+ points behind in the polls, no-one was predicting a disaster of that magnitude.

Secondly, I'd hate to be accused of ignoring anything so please show how the statistics prove that tactical voting cost the SNP seats.

Tories up 13.7% Labour up 2.8% SNP down 13.1%

Where did the extra 16.5% which was shared by the Tories and Labour come from? What kind of sorcery were those tactical voters using?

My "point of view" is that a large number of voters decided not to vote SNP, therefore they lost seats. Is that the tactical voting to which you refer?

[Hibbyradge]

I think we had this conversation before where you simply ignored any evidence to the contrary which was presented to you so no point in going back over that. :greengrin
So if you are right and the SNP lost seats due to tactical voting who did the 400 000 voters who deserted the SNP for other parties vote tactically for? Labours vote increased and the Tories increased dramatically whilst everybody elses went down so it looks like they made a 'tactical' decision to vote for those two parties. Why do you think that was?

You're stealing my lines! :take that

[Future17]

The independence lifeboat. What utter delusion. Where would it take Scotland? Who knows just hold on tight Nicola is at the wheel wearing the only life jacket on board!

What path is available just now that provides certainty?

[Hibbyradge]

who knows just hold on tight Theresa/Boris/Nigel is at the wheel wearing the only life jacket on board!

Delete as appropriate.

[Moulin Yarns]

The independence lifeboat. What utter delusion. Where would it take Scotland? Who knows just hold on tight Nicola is at the wheel wearing the only life jacket on board!

Some former dedicated No voters for you to give you something to think about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C8trs8mGhk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3xFEAd2E_U

[lucky]

What path is available just now that provides certainty?

None really but until we see what happens with brexit it would be foolish to consider going for independence unless like a few hard core people its independence at any cost

[The Harp Awakes]

What path is available just now that provides certainty?

Indeed. Choppy seas ahead regardless. One thing's for sure though, I'd have more confidence in Scottish citizens living in an independent country doing what's best for Scotland than an ultra right wing Westminster Tory Government looking out for us.

[johnbc70]

What I "believe" is irrelevant. As we'll never actually know one way or the other.

It's not irrelevant, if you think MI5 did rig the vote tell us? I suspect you do believe it, don't you?

[The Modfather]

The independence lifeboat. What utter delusion. Where would it take Scotland? Who knows just hold on tight Nicola is at the wheel wearing the only life jacket on board!

You don't half come across as bitter when it comes to Independence or the SNP.

Along with those the other side of the fence who hear no evil see no evil. Puts me off contributing to threads like this. Which is a shame as in amongst all the noise there is some good intelligent debate going on.

[Slavers]

You don't half come across as bitter when it comes to Independence or the SNP.

Along with those the other side of the fence who hear no evil see no evil. Puts me off contributing to threads like this. Which is a shame as in amongst all the noise there is some good intelligent debate going on.

Is it a case of 'Im too sexy for this chat?'

[RyeSloan]

Don't worry, they're still working.:greengrin

Any idea when they might wish to share any of this top secret working?

[Beefster]

What I "believe" is irrelevant. As we'll never actually know one way or the other.

I think that we can say with a fair degree of certainty that they didn't.

[Moulin Yarns]

Any idea when they might wish to share any of this top secret working?

Some of it is out there, you just need to know where to look. You might say it is Common Knowledge. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Any idea when they might wish to share any of this top secret working?

As GF has said, some of it's already out there.

Some bedtime reading.:wink:

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11228/report-backing-scotlands-currency-foreign-exchange-reserves-independent-scotland

[lucky]

See the SNP voted to lift the public sector pay cap in England and Wales tonight less than a month ago they voted to retain it in the Scotland. Doubt this two faced politics will help their Indy 2 cause.

[Glory Lurker]

See the SNP voted to lift the public sector pay cap in England and Wales tonight less than a month ago they voted to retain it in the Scotland. Doubt this two faced politics will help their Indy 2 cause.

Why? How does it relate to the constitutional question?

Anyway, it does arguably make financial sense. If passed at Westminster level, it will have Barnett consequentials that will make implementing it up here easier.

[ronaldo7]

See the SNP voted to lift the public sector pay cap in England and Wales tonight less than a month ago they voted to retain it in the Scotland. Doubt this two faced politics will help their Indy 2 cause.

The SNP in Holyrood amended a motion by Anas Sarwar, which asked for the pay cap to be scrapped. The independent pay review body helps determine NHS pay on a UK-wide basis, and the Scottish government has consistently implemented the body's recommendations.

As a result of the recommendations being passed on, in full, in Scotland, unlike other parts of the UK, band 5 Agenda for change staff members in Scotland will be £312 better off than their counterparts in England and Wales. Tories run the NHS in England, and Labour running the NHS in Wales.

Over and above the pay recommendations, due to Scottish Government action for the lowest paid, entry level NHS support staff are paid more than £1,128 than their counterparts in England.

Moreover, free nurse student tuition, and nurse student bursaries are being retained in Scotland whilst being lost in other parts of the UK.

I'm all for uplifting the nursing pay, however, to say the SNP are two faced whilst Labour in Wales are running their NHS into the ground beggars belief.

The place for the SNP to challenge this in in Westminster which they have. The champagne socialist, or Anas, as he's known to others needs to up his game.

It's all here.:aok:

18808

I thought you might have been coming on tonight, and having a go at the Tories for voting down your amendment. Pity that.

[grunt]

See the SNP voted to lift the public sector pay cap in England and Wales tonight less than a month ago they voted to retain it in the Scotland. Doubt this two faced politics will help their Indy 2 cause.

This would of course be dynamite, if it were true. Sadly for you it's not true. They voted against the simplistic motion put forward, voting instead for their own amendment which would have more force and which explicitly stated their aim to end the cap.

We live in an age where lies abound. Be careful who you listen to.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

As GF has said, some of it's already out there.

Some bedtime reading.:wink:

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11228/report-backing-scotlands-currency-foreign-exchange-reserves-independent-scotland

Thanks for the link...been having trouble sleeping so this should help [emoji6]

No seriously I'll give it a read as I'm genuinely interested in what consideration is being given to such matters. It may be dry as but it's the fundamental stuff that was so badly lacking in the last ref.

I might be in the minority of one with my thoughts that until I see genuinely plausible and rigorously tested proposals on topics like the currency question there will be no persuading me on Indy. But conversely I am open to that persuasion so it's good to at least see some work being done...

[Moulin Yarns]

As GF has said, some of it's already out there.

Some bedtime reading.:wink:

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11228/report-backing-scotlands-currency-foreign-exchange-reserves-independent-scotland

Aw Ronnie. You made it too easy. Let them work for it. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Thanks for the link...been having trouble sleeping so this should help [emoji6]

No seriously I'll give it a read as I'm genuinely interested in what consideration is being given to such matters. It may be dry as but it's the fundamental stuff that was so badly lacking in the last ref.

I might be in the minority of one with my thoughts that until I see genuinely plausible and rigorously tested proposals on topics like the currency question there will be no persuading me on Indy. But conversely I am open to that persuasion so it's good to at least see some work being done...

Good stuff.


Aw Ronnie. You made it too easy. Let them work for it. :wink:

Canny help masel. :greengrin

[lucky]

[QUOTE=grunt;5084120]This would of course be dynamite, if it were true. Sadly for you it's not true. They voted against the simplistic motion put forward, voting instead for their own amendment which would have more force and which explicitly stated their aim to end the cap.

We live in an age where lies abound. Be careful who you listen to.

But sadly they voted the Labour motion down and the cap has remained in place. You can spin it anyway you wish but the Scottish government has not only supported the cap they implemented it

[marinello59]

If the SNP had retained their vote share from 2015, then it would have been outrageous, considering that the outcome of 2015 was nothing short of a freak miracle. If they had of however won 35 seats in 2015, it would have still been considered a major success for them.

But it doesn't matter anyway. Facts are facts. The SNP won both elections in Scotland.

Also, not sure how you can say there was a "non-existent" tactical voting campaign when the statistics clearly show otherwise. But if it suits your point of view to ignore this, then carry on.


I think we had this conversation before where you simply ignored any evidence to the contrary which was presented to you so no point in going back over that. :greengrin
So if you are right and the SNP lost seats due to tactical voting who did the 400 000 voters who deserted the SNP for other parties vote tactically for? Labours vote increased and the Tories increased dramatically whilst everybody elses went down so it looks like they made a 'tactical' decision to vote for those two parties. Why do you think that was?

Any answer to that one yet H on H? I'm genuinely interested in your opinion as to why so many former SNP voters switched sides. Or as you describe it, voted tactically.

[Glory Lurker]

Oh come on, M59 and H on H. Get a room already! :greengrin

[marinello59]

Oh come on, M59 and H on H. Get a room already! :greengrin

He just won't commit. :greengrin

[lucky]

Looks like the Scottish Government have finally agreed to lift the pay cap for public sector workers. Strange that because their cheerleaders on here said it couldn't be done

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/29/scottish-government-abandons-public-sector-pay-cap

[marinello59]

Looks like the Scottish Government have finally agreed to lift the pay cap for public sector workers. Strange that because their cheerleaders on here said it couldn't be done

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/29/scottish-government-abandons-public-sector-pay-cap

To be fair their cheerleaders were much more concerned with attacking the Nurse who raised the issue during the General Election than seeing the wage cap ditched.

[johnbc70]

Aw Ronnie. You made it too easy. Let them work for it. :wink:

Had a look at the Commonspace site, from the posts above I thought it was a Scottish Government site that was trying to put some 'meat on the bones' in reference to questions like what currency an independent Scotland could have.

But it's not affiliated to government at all, the first article is about currency right enough but a personal viewpoint from someone that seems qualified as he has been an 'IT Expert' for 25 years?!

The original poster was, and I may be wrong, asking where is the information from the Scottish Government on these topics?

[pacoluna]

To be fair their cheerleaders were much more concerned with attacking the Nurse who raised the issue during the General Election than seeing the wage cap ditched.
NS stated the public sector pay cap was no longer viable weeks ago and as always have listened to what the pay review recommend, unlike the UK Gvment. kezia once again twisting nonsense about a U turn. Again the SNP having to mitigate funds not coming from Westminster!

[marinello59]

NS stated the public sector pay cap was no longer viable weeks ago and as always have listened to what the pay review recommend, unlike the UK Gvment. kezia once again twisting nonsense about a U turn. Again the SNP having to mitigate funds not coming from Westminster!

She did. She said it when she was challenged on live TV. SNP supporters showed little interest in that then though, the messenger had to be shot.
This is a change from the Scottish Goverment though, previously the line was that their hands were tied. It's good news that they have found a way of doing this now though. Very good news.

[JeMeSouviens]

Had a look at the Commonspace site, from the posts above I thought it was a Scottish Government site that was trying to put some 'meat on the bones' in reference to questions like what currency an independent Scotland could have.

But it's not affiliated to government at all, the first article is about currency right enough but a personal viewpoint from someone that seems qualified as he has been an 'IT Expert' for 25 years?!

The original poster was, and I may be wrong, asking where is the information from the Scottish Government on these topics?

Commonspace is the website of Common Weal, a leftist pro-Indy think tank.

You're more likely thinking of the SNP's growth commission which afaik hasn't reported yet (or at least if it has, it hasn't been made public):

https://www.snp.org/snp_growth_commission

[johnbc70]

Commonspace is the website of Common Weal, a leftist pro-Indy think tank.

You're more likely thinking of the SNP's growth commission which afaik hasn't reported yet (or at least if it has, it hasn't been made public):

https://www.snp.org/snp_growth_commission

Thanks.

[ronaldo7]

Looks like the Scottish Government have finally agreed to lift the pay cap for public sector workers. Strange that because their cheerleaders on here said it couldn't be done

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/29/scottish-government-abandons-public-sector-pay-cap

I bet yer gutted.

The post at #2430 clearly indicates what the Scottish government plan was in their response to the Millionaire Labour MSP. But you don't want to read that, as they're working with the Unions to take forward a plan for the uplift.

[ronaldo7]

Had a look at the Commonspace site, from the posts above I thought it was a Scottish Government site that was trying to put some 'meat on the bones' in reference to questions like what currency an independent Scotland could have.

But it's not affiliated to government at all, the first article is about currency right enough but a personal viewpoint from someone that seems qualified as he has been an 'IT Expert' for 25 years?!

The original poster was, and I may be wrong, asking where is the information from the Scottish Government on these topics?

The site is one of many which will be looking to build and structure work for the Indy movement. It says in the growth commission, that they'll be working with many outlets and allow them to feed into the growth commission. Fraser of Allander institute is another one.

When the growth commission have finished their work, I'm sure the Unionist media will be all over it.

[marinello59]

I bet yer gutted.

The post at #2430 clearly indicates what the Scottish government plan was in their response to the Millionaire Labour MSP. But you don't want to read that, as they're working with the Unions to take forward a plan for the uplift.

Why can they do this now when it was ruled out before? Im pretty sure you defended the previous decision so what's changed?

[High-On-Hibs]

Any answer to that one yet H on H? I'm genuinely interested in your opinion as to why so many former SNP voters switched sides. Or as you describe it, voted tactically.

Well I (can't :wink: ) speak for all former SNP supporters, But from the one's I have spoken to, they were taken in by Jeremy Corbyn as they felt he was offering a left wing approach that they considered more genuine than the SNPs. I've spoken to a few today and they are now furious about Labours hard brexit backing.

[High-On-Hibs]

To be fair their cheerleaders were much more concerned with attacking the Nurse who raised the issue during the General Election than seeing the wage cap ditched.

Will be interesting to see if the BBC wheel her out again to tell us what she makes of her beloved tories voting the cap down in England and Wales, although I predict she won't be available to comment.

I'm actually surprised the Scottish Government are now going to be lifting it. I'm just wondering where the funding is going to come from without the increase in barnett consequentials.

[marinello59]

Will be interesting to see if the BBC wheel her out again to tell us what she makes of her beloved tories voting the cap down in England and Wales, although I predict she won't be available to comment.

I'm actually surprised the Scottish Government are now going to be lifting it. I'm just wondering where the funding is going to come from without the increase in barnett consequentials.

The nurse really doesn't matter. The point she raised was a good one and the fact so many SNP supporters were more enraged by their leader being attacked than the public sector pay cap said a lot.

[High-On-Hibs]

Erm.....this is really not the tactical voting that you were saying went on at all is it? :confused:

No, but I take from your comments that you're trying to claim that it was previous SNP voters that caused a spike in the tory vote, when this simply wasn't case. Although a small percentage will have voted tory, the vast chunk will have shifted to Labour, while Labour voters shifted to tory or lib dem depending on who was best placed to defeat the SNP candidate.

[marinello59]

No, but I take from your comments that you're trying to claim that it was previous SNP voters that caused a spike in the tory vote, when this simply wasn't case. Although a small percentage will have voted tory, the vast chunk will have shifted to Labour, while Labour voters shifted to tory or lib dem depending on who was best placed to defeat the SNP candidate.

The figures expose that as a myth. Look at the total number of votes lost by the SNP and the number gained by the Tories. The Labour vote increased slightly despite the fact many of us thought it would collapse further.

[ronaldo7]

Why can they do this now when it was ruled out before? Im pretty sure you defended the previous decision so what's changed?

No idea, you seem to be up on SNP policy though, so you could just check it.:greengrin

I've given responses on the detail of the subject, as in, the Independent review body which makes the decisions. They've said they would be working with the unions to make a case to give the uplift, and review the cap.

Maybe we could just ask the Nurse. She's maybe had a word with her Dad, these Tories seem to be able to shake the money tree when they need it.:wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

The nurse really doesn't matter. The point she raised was a good one and the fact so many SNP supporters were more enraged by their leader being attacked than the public sector pay cap said a lot.

She did make a good point, but tarnished it by telling blatant untruths that even angered nurses working in the public sector. If she had just stuck to the main point instead of trying to over politicize things with a fake sob story, she'd have walked away from it with a lot more respect than she did.


The figures expose that as a myth. Look at the total number of votes lost by the SNP and the number gained by the Tories. The Labour vote increased slightly despite the fact many of us thought it would collapse further.

That doesn't tell you anything. As i've already said, SNP voters switched back to Labour, while Labour voters switched to tory. So no, it's not a "myth" as you put it. Your idiot of a SLAB leader was actively pushing for tory votes in areas where they were in a stronger position to oust the SNP candidate.

On the subject of SLABS idiot leader, perhaps you can explain to me and everybody else who roams this forum why she backed a motion yesterday that will drag the UK (including Scotland) out of the customs union and the single market? :confused:

[marinello59]

No idea, you seem to be up on SNP policy though, so you could just check it.:greengrin

I've given responses on the detail of the subject, as in, the Independent review body which makes the decisions. They've said they would be working with the unions to make a case to give the uplift, and review the cap.

Maybe we could just ask the Nurse. She's maybe had a word with her Dad, these Tories seem to be able to shake the money tree when they need it.:wink:

I have no idea either. I'm just delighted the situation is going to be rectified really.

[ronaldo7]

I have no idea either. I'm just delighted the situation is going to be rectified really.

So am I, as I said in post #2430. Just an SNP cheerleader though.:wink:

[marinello59]

She did make a good point, but tarnished it by telling blatant untruths that even angered nurses working in the public sector. If she had just stuck to the main point instead of trying to over politicize things with a fake sob story, she'd have walked away from it with a lot more respect than she did.



That doesn't tell you anything. As i've already said, SNP voters switched back to Labour, while Labour voters switched to tory. So no, it's not a "myth" as you put it. Your idiot of a SLAB leader was actively pushing for tory votes in areas where they were in a stronger position to oust the SNP candidate.

On the subject of SLABS idiot leader, perhaps you can explain to me and everybody else who roams this forum why she backed a motion yesterday that will drag the UK (including Scotland) out of the customs union and the single market? :confused:

I have provided figures both on this thread and another one as to why in my opinion it is a myth. Perhaps you could supply evidence to back up your opinion that tactical voting was widespread and was the single biggest reason that the SNP lost 21 seats. Or even counter my figures. At the end of the day the SNP won well in Scotland but the loss of so many voters to other parties has to be a worry. I just don't think an SNP voter switching sides can be classed as tactical voting, they were just hacked off.

I'm not so sure that's my job, she isn't my leader. :greengrin

[Mr Grieves]

Any answer to that one yet H on H? I'm genuinely interested in your opinion as to why so many former SNP voters switched sides. Or as you describe it, voted tactically.

Is it possible you both could be right and wrong? :greengrin

There were constituencies were the numbers suggest a switch of voters from SNP to the Tories in some areas.
There were constituencies were the numbers suggest a switch of voters from SNP to Labour in some areas.
There were constituencies were the Labour vote went down with an increase in the Tory vote, suggesting an element of tactical voting in some areas.
There were constituencies were the SNP vote went down by more than the other parties vote increased, suggesting a number of previous SNP voters never voted at all. This happened in many areas across the country.

[marinello59]

Is it possible you both could be right and wrong? :greengrin

There were constituencies were the numbers suggest a switch of voters from SNP to the Tories in some areas.
There were constituencies were the numbers suggest a switch of voters from SNP to Labour in some areas.
There were constituencies were the Labour vote went down with an increase in the Tory vote, suggesting an element of tactical voting in some areas.
There were constituencies were the SNP vote went down by more than the other parties vote increased, suggesting a number of previous SNP voters never voted at all. This happened all over the country.

Yes it is and your summation of what may have happened in different consituencies is pretty fair.

[marinello59]

So am I, as I said in post #2430. Just an SNP cheerleader though.:wink:

I'm going to drink now until the image of you dancing around waving saltire pom poms is wiped out. :greengrin

[lucky]

I bet yer gutted.

The post at #2430 clearly indicates what the Scottish government plan was in their response to the Millionaire Labour MSP. But you don't want to read that, as they're working with the Unions to take forward a plan for the uplift.

Not gutted at all, delighted that the SNP have done this U-turn. But yet again you've failed to answer why the SNP voted down the cap last month in Scotland but supported giving a rise in England & Wales,

[Mr Grieves]

Yes it is and your summation of what may have happened in different consituencies is pretty fair.

It's a tough position for the SNP. In the current climate they have to choose between left and right. The fact they mentioned they're going to change their position over the summer probably means they're going to sacrifice the heartlands in the North East to the Tories, to fend off any challenge from Labour on the left. I'm guessing they hope that'll also mobilise the demographics that voted for them in 2015.

[ronaldo7]

Not gutted at all, delighted that the SNP have done this U-turn. But yet again you've failed to answer why the SNP voted down the cap last month in Scotland but supported giving a rise in England & Wales,

We amended Anas Sarwars (Champagne $ociali$t) weak attempt at a motion in parliament. I'd like to know why Scottish Labour voted against the amendment which called for the Scottish Government to work with the Staff Unions in the NHS on a body of work to implement higher wages?

The amendment is here. Why did Labour vote against this?

18823

[lucky]

We amended Anas Sarwars (Champagne $ociali$t) weak attempt at a motion in parliament. I'd like to know why Scottish Labour voted against the amendment which called for the Scottish Government to work with the Staff Unions in the NHS on a body of work to implement higher wages?

The amendment is here. Why did Labour vote against this?

18823

Sarwar is not a millionaire his father is to start with. He was a dentist. Secondly the amendment was not breaking the cap. Only to look to remove it across the U.K. But as always the SNP refuse to work with Labour in the SP. why not just admit this is a welcomed U turn and the Nats had got this wrong.
You do realise that your constant claims of everything is rosie under the SNP is not the Scotland we all live in. I'm a party loyalist but I at least criticise my party when I believe they are wrong. You wonder how the SNP is called a cult by some of its opponents

[ronaldo7]

Sarwar is not a millionaire his father is to start with. He was a dentist. Secondly the amendment was not breaking the cap. Only to look to remove it across the U.K. But as always the SNP refuse to work with Labour in the SP. why not just admit this is a welcomed U turn and the Nats had got this wrong.
You do realise that your constant claims of everything is rosie under the SNP is not the Scotland we all live in. I'm a party loyalist but I at least criticise my party when I believe they are wrong. You wonder how the SNP is called a cult by some of its opponents

We'll just have to disagree on this one then, and hope that Labour support the budget when it comes to voting for it later this year or early next, and the staff with which we've been standing up for, get their increase.

As you're in a "criticising the party" mood. Why are the Scottish Labour MP's not doing what Kezia's told them?

[Colr]

So what IS the plan on indy ref 2?

Just when I came round to the idea in the wake of Brexit, it get pulled!

[pacoluna]

We'll just have to disagree on this one then, and hope that Labour support the budget when it comes to voting for it later this year or early next, and the staff with which we've been standing up for, get their increase.

As you're in a "criticising the party" mood. Why are the Scottish Labour MP's not doing what Kezia's told them?
When their little darling kezia is mentioned they go quiet. Perhaps it's because she is absolutely, utterly useless or maybe she's just irrelevant to them just like she is to corbyn and his team.

[marinello59]

So what IS the plan on indy ref 2?

Just when I came round to the idea in the wake of Brexit, it get pulled!

It's not been pulled, the handbrake has just been applied.
If Nicola Sturgeon thinks it can be won after the Brexit deal is done then it will go ahead.

[High-On-Hibs]

So what IS the plan on indy ref 2?

Just when I came round to the idea in the wake of Brexit, it get pulled!

It hasn't been pulled at all (despite what rubbish you may have read in the papers).

They are waiting until brexit is all done and dusted before presenting us with the question again. Why? So more people can come round to the idea when they realize how it's going to impact them personally.

[pacoluna]

Sarwar is not a millionaire his father is to start with. He was a dentist. Secondly the amendment was not breaking the cap. Only to look to remove it across the U.K. But as always the SNP refuse to work with Labour in the SP. why not just admit this is a welcomed U turn and the Nats had got this wrong.
You do realise that your constant claims of everything is rosie under the SNP is not the Scotland we all live in. I'm a party loyalist but I at least criticise my party when I believe they are wrong. You wonder how the SNP is called a cult by some of its opponents
Kezia voted against both. Robison's amendment and sanwars original vote regarding pay cap. Slab claim victory but in reality they are absolute charlatans.

[lucky]

Kezia voted against both. Robison's amendment and sanwars original vote regarding pay cap. Slab claim victory but in reality they are absolute charlatans.

No she did not but keep trying. You were on here saying it can't be done. As for Kezia what have the MPs supposedly not done?

[High-On-Hibs]

No she did not but keep trying. You were on here saying it can't be done. As for Kezia what have the MPs supposedly not done?

Yes she did.

You say you at least criticize your party when you believe they are wrong, but it seems that you never believe they are wrong and will flat out deny fact in order to defend them.

[lord bunberry]

Independence is happening whether we like it or not The issue is how we deal with it.

[Glory Lurker]

Independence is happening whether we like it or not The issue is how we deal with it.

This post makes me happy. :greengrin

[lucky]

Yes she did.

You say you at least criticize your party when you believe they are wrong, but it seems that you never believe they are wrong and will flat out deny fact in order to defend them.

Evidence?

[Betty Boop]

Independence is happening whether we like it or not The issue is how we deal with it.

Doubt it. I don't think there is a great appetite for Independence now.

[High-On-Hibs]

Evidence?

Prove she didn't, seeing as you're the one who originally claimed that she did not.

[High-On-Hibs]

Doubt it. I don't think there is a great appetite for Independence now.

Anyone who doesn't want independence regardless of whatever happens to Scotland as part of the UK will say that. However, I believe most people are clever enough not to want Scotland to be dragged into a black hole with the UK clawing at it's heels.

I have a feeling that "appetite" will build up in due course. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

Kezia voted against both. Robison's amendment and sanwars original vote regarding pay cap. Slab claim victory but in reality they are absolute charlatans.

It says here, she voted against.:wink:

18833

[johnbc70]

Independence is happening whether we like it or not The issue is how we deal with it.

I am sure there will be another referendum, but it's a long way away.

What if Brexit is not as disastrous as some predict, what if we don't actually notice much difference in our day to day lives, we will still wake up, go to work etc as we did before.

What would it take for another Referendum?

[High-On-Hibs]

I am sure there will be another referendum, but it's a long way away.

What if Brexit is not as disastrous as some predict, what if we don't actually notice much difference in our day to day lives, we will still wake up, go to work etc as we did before.

What would it take for another Referendum?

We're already noticing a difference and we're still a fair way off from completing the brexit process. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to pretend that there is no difference, even when they know that there is. The pound is only going in one direction, as is inflation. Those pretending that everything is quite alright will not be able to keep the act up for much longer.

[High-On-Hibs]

It says here, she voted against.:wink:

18833

As did Jackie Bailie, Alex Cole-Hamilton...... and...... Patrick Harvie :shocked:

[marinello59]

It says here, she voted against.:wink:

18833

Against both? It looks like Sarwar voted against his own amendment as well then according to that form. :confused:
Have you worked out yet why scrapping the cap unilaterally was impossible before but can be done now? I've not seen this one explained anywhere yet. :confused:

[marinello59]

I am sure there will be another referendum, but it's a long way away.

What if Brexit is not as disastrous as some predict, what if we don't actually notice much difference in our day to day lives, we will still wake up, go to work etc as we did before.

What would it take for another Referendum?

We simply don't know but as I don't believe those who suggest that Independence will result in chaos I guess it would therefore be reasonable to assume that Brexit will not result in us all living in cardboard boxes. There will be a price to pay of some sort though, it's all going to come down to how we are affected in our daily lives I guess. I hope we do get a good Brexit deal though I have my doubts that will be achieved.
There are mulitiple reasons why Independence should be our long term goal, it's not all about Brexit.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

We simply don't know but as I don't believe those who suggest that Independence will result in chaos I guess it would therefore be reasonable to assume that Brexit will not result in us all living in cardboard boxes. There will be a price to pay of some sort though, it's all going to come down to how we are affected in our daily lives I guess. I hope we do get a good Brexit deal though I have my doubts that will be achieved.
There are mulitiple reasons why Independence should be our long term goal, it's not all about Brexit.

For what its worth, i think that while some are against indy on principle, there are many (maybe a majority?) that just take a pragmatic look. I think thesr people could be won around by certain circumstances. The problem to date had been the inability of the yes side to answer properly the fundamental economic arguments. Latterly, i think the yes campaign has become too much of a left-wing campaign, and therefore too (small p) political.

But both of those mistakes can be put right though.

[lord bunberry]

I am sure there will be another referendum, but it's a long way away.

What if Brexit is not as disastrous as some predict, what if we don't actually notice much difference in our day to day lives, we will still wake up, go to work etc as we did before.

What would it take for another Referendum?

Brexit won't have to be a disaster to force another referendum, it would only have to be slightly worse than the current situation. Personally I think it will be pretty bad and people will look for a way out, independence would be the obvious route in that scenario.

[Hibbyradge]

Anyone who doesn't want independence regardless of whatever happens to Scotland as part of the UK will say that. However, I believe most people are clever enough not to want Scotland to be dragged into a black hole with the UK clawing at it's heels.

I have a feeling that "appetite" will build up in due course. :aok:

I'm very much pro-independence, but I don't see it happening for a long time. I would think that support for it currently is as low as it's been for many years.

We have no idea as to what will happen to the pound, the markets or inflation, because we have no idea what Brexit, if it happens, will look like.

[lord bunberry]

I'm very much pro-independence, but I don't see it happening for a long time. I would think that support for it currently is as low as it's been for many years.

We have no idea as to what will happen to the pound, the markets or inflation, because we have no idea what Brexit, if it happens, will look like.
Support for independence remains as high as it has ever been if you trust opinion polls. The rest of your post seems wildly optimistic imo, but you're right as we don't know what brexit will mean.

[High-On-Hibs]

I'm very much pro-independence, but I don't see it happening for a long time. I would think that support for it currently is as low as it's been for many years.

We have no idea as to what will happen to the pound, the markets or inflation, because we have no idea what Brexit, if it happens, will look like.

Well considering who's in charge of these negotiations I think we can conclude that it will be anything but good.

[High-On-Hibs]

Against both? It looks like Sarwar voted against his own amendment as well then according to that form. :confused:
Have you worked out yet why scrapping the cap unilaterally was impossible before but can be done now? I've not seen this one explained anywhere yet. :confused:

If it says he voted against his own amendment, then he voted against his own amendment. The official Scottish Parliament website that keeps track of these things is hardly going to lie about it. The question is why he would vote against his own motion and the amendment which was still supporting the cap lift?

I questioned Alex Cole Hamilton on the same thing. He told me that he didn't support the amendment, but the records clearly show that he didn't support the original motion either. When I asked him why he didn't back the original motion, he never got back to me.

As for the scrapping of the cap and why they didn't do it last time is because it would be easier to fund the cap lift had it of been lifted in England and Wales also. They were holding out to see if they could get it lifted south of the border first before lifting it up here. Makes sense from an economic point of view. But now that this hasn't happened, it's going to be a whole lot harder.

[grunt]

What if Brexit is not as disastrous as some predict, what if we don't actually notice much difference in our day to day lives, we will still wake up, go to work etc as we did before. Brexit is already a disaster, which is growing worse each day. We need to get out. Indy2 can't come quick enough.

[johnbc70]

Brexit is already a disaster, which is growing worse each day. We need to get out. Indy2 can't come quick enough.

In what way, interested to find out how your life has changed since the vote that makes Brexit a disaster? I voted remain by the way.

[ronaldo7]

Against both? It looks like Sarwar voted against his own amendment as well then according to that form. :confused:
Have you worked out yet why scrapping the cap unilaterally was impossible before but can be done now? I've not seen this one explained anywhere yet. :confused:

Nope,

Maybe they're going to increase the taxes for those earning more than most in Scotland. Watch out 59:greengrin

Either that, or the SNP MP's have put too much pressure on Theresa, that she's crumbling...Again.:greengrin

[grunt]

In what way, interested to find out how your life has changed since the vote that makes Brexit a disaster? I voted remain by the way.I didn't say my life had changed, I said Brexit was a disaster. I work a lot in London, and businesses in the city are rapidly moving out or planning to move out. We have shot ourselves in the foot with this vote. But this is not the topic for this thread.

[johnbc70]

I didn't say my life had changed, I said Brexit was a disaster. I work a lot in London, and businesses in the city are rapidly moving out or planning to move out. We have shot ourselves in the foot with this vote. But this is not the topic for this thread.

I agree some city type jobs will go but to the ordinary man or woman on the streets when will they start to think that Brexit has been a disaster, only then will people maybe consider that another independence referendum is required. I just think it's difficult to predict and hanging another referendum on the back of a disastrous Brexit is dangerous.

[grunt]

I agree some city type jobs will go but to the ordinary man or woman on the streets when will they start to think that Brexit has been a disaster, only then will people maybe consider that another independence referendum is required. I just think it's difficult to predict and hanging another referendum on the back of a disastrous Brexit is dangerous.My view is slightly different. I want another indyref not because of the economic consequences of Brexit, which are bad enough, but more because of what Brexit means about our view on our neighbours. I don't want to be part of a union with people who think that immigrants are less important than ourselves. I'm sic of the "Little England" viewpoint.

[marinello59]

If it says he voted against his own amendment, then he voted against his own amendment. The official Scottish Parliament website that keeps track of these things is hardly going to lie about it. The question is why he would vote against his own motion and the amendment which was still supporting the cap lift?

I questioned Alex Cole Hamilton on the same thing. He told me that he didn't support the amendment, but the records clearly show that he didn't support the original motion either. When I asked him why he didn't back the original motion, he never got back to me.

As for the scrapping of the cap and why they didn't do it last time is because it would be easier to fund the cap lift had it of been lifted in England and Wales also. They were holding out to see if they could get it lifted south of the border first before lifting it up here. Makes sense from an economic point of view. But now that this hasn't happened, it's going to be a whole lot harder.

Well it also looks like Shona Robison and Nicola Sturgeon voted for his amendment. Odd eh? I wonder why that could be.:greengrin
(It's OK, I know why that would be.)

[marinello59]

Nope,

Maybe they're going to increase the taxes for those earning more than most in Scotland. Watch out 59:greengrin

Either that, or the SNP MP's have put too much pressure on Theresa, that she's crumbling...Again.:greengrin

Well something has changed. You made a strong argument in defence of them not lifting the cap. I can't remember what it was now though.:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Well something has changed. You made a strong argument in defence of them not lifting the cap. I can't remember what it was now though.:greengrin

I've given you an answer on this on two occasions now. I've no idea what's changed, and I made an argument for them implementing the "Independent review body" in full. Unlike in England.

The amendment the other week mentioned working with the unions to make a case for changing the cap, theirs maybe been a breakthrough there.

I'm sure we'll find out in due course. The good thing is the Scottish Government is working with the stakeholders in the process, rather than against them.

[RyeSloan]

We're already noticing a difference and we're still a fair way off from completing the brexit process. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to pretend that there is no difference, even when they know that there is. The pound is only going in one direction, as is inflation. Those pretending that everything is quite alright will not be able to keep the act up for much longer.

You state a lot of unknowns as facts to suit your positions.

Are we meant to believe you can predict the direction of the pound or inflation with such certainty that you can state it is 'only going in one direction'. What? like forever?

Assuming some hyperbole and you are not actually claiming to know the direction of a currency forever, on what timescales has your crystal ball provided you with the information on? As from what I can see the pound has strengthened against the Dollar this year, which I assume wasn't the direction you were referring to...

And as for inflation, you had better give Carney a call and tell him your crystal ball is way better than his one because the BoE version is predicting inflation to fall in 2018 and 2019.