Indy Ref 2

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A Generational shift IMO makes independence a certainty.

Younger population are more inclined to vote for independence . Don't think there is any debate regarding that.

You might be right, but i think the problems of social media make many younger people feel that their views are often more popular amd well supported than they avtually are.

But im not sayimg you are wrong, you may well be proved right.

[JeMeSouviens]

Or it could be that people get more conservatibe and less radical as they get older?


Yes, that was my 2nd option.



Either could be right.

Bit demographics wont win it, because we are an ageing society.

Its not like in NI where i believe the republicans are, to put it very crudely, simply outbreeding the unionists?

If the former option is right, demographics will win it. The 60+ No core will erode over time and be replaced by a more Yes minded group.

[pacoluna]

You might be right, but i think the problems of social media make many younger people feel that their views are often more popular amd well supported than they avtually are.

But im not sayimg you are wrong, you may well be proved right.
Even with an ageing society there is always going to be a generational shift.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yes, that was my 2nd option.



If the former option is right, demographics will win it. The 60+ No core will erode over time and be replaced by a more Yes minded group.

Yeah sorry i didnt mean that to sound as argumentative!

True, fair point.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Even with an ageing society there is always going to be a generational shift.

Yeah, as i say, you may well be right

[G B Young]

None more so wearisome than you and your right wing Tory friends.
I mean, ffs, the Conservatives are standing for the council elections on a "stop Indyref2" ticket!!! Ask yourself, who is it that's wearisome and obsessed?
What a message at the council elections, "**** local issues let's save the Union".

Borrowing perhaps from the SNP's message of "**** governing the country, let's destroy the Union"?

Truth is these council elections were always going to be overshadowed by the independence question, even more so now we have a general election thrown into the mix. It suits the SNP to accuse the Tories of putting independence at the heart of the council elections because it allows them to present a facade of downing tools to focus on local issues, knowing full well they have the pro independence vote in the bag.

FWIW I voted Labour up until 2015 and may well do so again in June if it looks like doing so will see off the SNP in my constituency. I wasn't especially interested in politics until 2014 when short of moving abroad you couldn't avoid the impact of the referendum. Party politics aside, I simply believe (like the majority of Scottish voters who rejected independence) that being part of the union is a good thing for Scotland and resent the fact the SNP would have the world believe we're a seething nation of saltire wavers in a constant rage over Brexit (conveniently ignoring the fact that a third of SNP voters wanted to leave the EU).

I recall reading Alex Salmond's leaked 'victory' speech in 2014, which made much of extending the hand of welcome to those who voted against independence. Since losing the vote, there's been precious little sign of any respect for those who voted no from the SNP, simply a monomaniac mantra of pushing for another referendum until they get the result they want. For all their bombast about Brexit 'changing everything' the hoped for spike in support for independence has failed to materialise and in my view the Tories are quite right to stand strong against a party whose daily obsession does not square with the majority wishes of 'the Scottish people' they claim to represent.

[Moulin Yarns]

Borrowing perhaps from the SNP's message of "**** governing the country, let's destroy the Union"?

Truth is these council elections were always going to be overshadowed by the independence question, even more so now we have a general election thrown into the mix. It suits the SNP to accuse the Tories of putting independence at the heart of the council elections because it allows them to present a facade of downing tools to focus on local issues, knowing full well they have the pro independence vote in the bag.

FWIW I voted Labour up until 2015 and may well do so again in June if it looks like doing so will see off the SNP in my constituency. I wasn't especially interested in politics until 2014 when short of moving abroad you couldn't avoid the impact of the referendum. Party politics aside, I simply believe (like the majority of Scottish voters who rejected independence) that being part of the union is a good thing for Scotland and resent the fact the SNP would have the world believe we're a seething nation of saltire wavers in a constant rage over Brexit (conveniently ignoring the fact that a third of SNP voters wanted to leave the EU).

I recall reading Alex Salmond's leaked 'victory' speech in 2014, which made much of extending the hand of welcome to those who voted against independence. Since losing the vote, there's been precious little sign of any respect for those who voted no from the SNP, simply a monomaniac mantra of pushing for another referendum until they get the result they want. For all their bombast about Brexit 'changing everything' the hoped for spike in support for independence has failed to materialise and in my view the Tories are quite right to stand strong against a party whose daily obsession does not square with the majority wishes of 'the Scottish people' they claim to represent.

None of the pro independence parties have mentioned independence in their Council election manifestos. Only the 'Unionist' parties have done.

AND, if a 3rd of SNP voters voted leave, a higher NO voters must have voted remain.

[ACLeith]

None of the pro independence parties have mentioned independence in their Council election manifestos. Only the 'Unionist' parties have done.

AND, if a 3rd of SNP voters voted leave, a higher NO voters must have voted remain.

In the Leith area. I have received SNP and Green leaflets, nothing from the other 3 candidates. They both talk about what they have done for local issues and what they will do. Exactly as you would expect and want in a local election.

Will wait to see if the other parties bother to give me a leaflet. Looking forward to the Tories coming to the door and asking if they can count on my vote; will tell them "of course you can", pause, then "as number 5 out of 5"

[Mon Dieu4]

Depends whether you think the huge concentration of No voters in the over 60s is because they are of their time, ie. a time when Britain had not long fought a war, survived its aftermath, built the NHS and welfare state etc, or because there is a natural tendency to a "safety first" outlook as you get older.

All current polling puts all other age groups as Yes majority, so Unionists better hope it is either the latter or they are about to drum up some mighty powers of persuasion they haven't shown so far. :wink:

You are spot on with this assessment, my granny was 85 at the last election and died a few months later, she asked me what kind of future I wanted and that's what she wold vote as we were the ones that were going to have to live with it, loved her for that

[G B Young]

AND, if a 3rd of SNP voters voted leave, a higher NO voters must have voted remain.

I voted remain, but it doesn't mean I suddenly want Scottish independence because the leave vote won the day. Nor would I have clamoured for a second referendum had the result gone the other way in 2014. You'd think from the way the SNP position it that there was a separate Scotland-only Brexit vote held last year. Fact is it was a UK-wide vote and we weren't the only part of the country where a majority voted to remain. We need to roll with the result and make the best of it in my view, not sow fresh seeds of division by using Brexit as a smokescreen to agitate for a new referendum.

[Bristolhibby]

I voted remain, but it doesn't mean I suddenly want Scottish independence because the leave vote won the day. Nor would I have clamoured for a second referendum had the result gone the other way in 2014. You'd think from the way the SNP position it that there was a separate Scotland-only Brexit vote held last year. Fact is it was a UK-wide vote and we weren't the only part of the country where a majority voted to remain. We need to roll with the result and make the best of it in my view, not sow fresh seeds of division by using Brexit as a smokescreen to agitate for a new referendum.

Thing with the Indy referendum is No will only ever be a stalling result. Yes, will end it. Because with No, the people (or their elected representatives) can always ask the question again. And again, until they no longer have the majority of MSPs in Holyrood.

So to hammer a party who's very being is to achieve an independent Scotland is crazy.

Indy parties have the backing of the electorate in Westminster and more importantly Holyrood. If this situation is undeseriable then the next Scottish Parliament elections are the time to make a point.

J

[G B Young]

Depends whether you think the huge concentration of No voters in the over 60s is because they are of their time, ie. a time when Britain had not long fought a war, survived its aftermath, built the NHS and welfare state etc, or because there is a natural tendency to a "safety first" outlook as you get older.

All current polling puts all other age groups as Yes majority, so Unionists better hope it is either the latter or they are about to drum up some mighty powers of persuasion they haven't shown so far. :wink:

Ah, those pesky old voters. How could they possibly have known what was best? They've only gathered a lifetime of experience (and in some cases even wisdom). Makes you wonder why the SNP are in such a rush for a new referendum when if they waited a few years they'd see a good number of the oldies die off...

In saying that, the perception that there was a tide of support among young voters for independence was not borne out by closer analysis of the (very limited) sample polling:

http://www.if.org.uk/archives/5655/how-did-young-people-vote-in-the-scottish-referendum

I readily admit I'd probably have voted for independence when I was 16 as voting for the status quo wouldn't have seemed very exciting. Doesn't mean I'd have been right though.

My own feeling is that Scotland as a nation, irrespective of age groups, is inherently a more conservative (with a small c) nation than we might realise and that that played a large part in the no vote winning the day.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ah, those pesky old voters. How could they possibly have known what was best? They've only gathered a lifetime of experience (and in some cases even wisdom). Makes you wonder why the SNP are in such a rush for a new referendum when if they waited a few years they'd see a good number of the oldies die off...

In saying that, the perception that there was a tide of support among young voters for independence was not borne out by closer analysis of the (very limited) sample polling:

http://www.if.org.uk/archives/5655/how-did-young-people-vote-in-the-scottish-referendum

I readily admit I'd probably have voted for independence when I was 16 as voting for the status quo wouldn't have seemed very exciting. Doesn't mean I'd have been right though.

My own feeling is that Scotland as a nation, irrespective of age groups, is inherently a more conservative (with a small c) nation than we might realise and that that played a large part in the no vote winning the day.

Everybody's votes were equal and everyone has equal right to them. Your patronising what do young folk know? attitude is every bit as offensive as writing off the oldies as past it.

There's a much better post-referendum study of demographics etc than the tiny samples you quote above, done as a collaborative venture between Edinburgh, Glasgow and Essex Unis.

Their conclusions:


Conclusions

• Identity provided core support for both camps

• But economic risk decided the outcome

• The median voter:
– Feels more Scottish than British
– Wants almost all powers at Scottish level
– Questions legitimacy of Westminster government
– Optimistic about independence but economic doubts

• ‘No’ campaign didn’t change what Scots want; just
scared them out of going for it

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Thing with the Indy referendum is No will only ever be a stalling result. Yes, will end it. Because with No, the people (or their elected representatives) can always ask the question again. And again, until they no longer have the majority of MSPs in Holyrood.

So to hammer a party who's very being is to achieve an independent Scotland is crazy.

Indy parties have the backing of the electorate in Westminster and more importantly Holyrood. If this situation is undeseriable then the next Scottish Parliament elections are the time to make a point.

J

I think you are right to an extent, but the snp will only hold sway for so long, history tells us that. Plus, if another ref is held and lost, people will tire of them quickly imo.

Also their internal discipline which is so important woyld start to crack. Sturgeon has made enemies in the party, and the SNP were a fairly divided bunch until salmond came back as leader.

[Jack]

I think you are right to an extent, but the snp will only hold sway for so long, history tells us that. Plus, if another ref is held and lost, people will tire of them quickly imo.

Also their internal discipline which is so important woyld start to crack. ^^^^^Sturgeon has made enemies in the party^^^^^, and the SNP were a fairly divided bunch until salmond came back as leader.

More wishful thinking from the Tory Club?

Before I retired from the Scottish Government, not that long ago, they all got on very well together. There's not even been a hint of this in the media.

Fake news ... unless of course you can provide substance.

[northstandhibby]

More wishful thinking from the Tory Club?

Before I retired from the Scottish Government, not that long ago, they all got on very well together. There's not even been a hint of this in the media.

Fake news ... unless of course you can provide substance.

That will win over undecided voters right enough. Must be Tories if they're not SNP supporters.

:rolleyes:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

More wishful thinking from the Tory Club?

Before I retired from the Scottish Government, not that long ago, they all got on very well together. There's not even been a hint of this in the media.

Fake news ... unless of course you can provide substance.

That salmond and sturgeon dont get on is something of an open secret i would say. Likewise sturgeon amd swinney i have heard. And im fairly sure alex neils recent rocking of the boat wasnt done out of friendship.

It seems a tad unlikely, that you would throw together a bunch of very ambitious, headstrong and egotistical people all with different backgrounds, political views, ask them all to compete with one another amd then expect no friction doesnt it?

But if you know better, im happy to bow to your superior knowledge, my info is general political gossip amd tittle tattle.

Its not fake news though, amazing as it may seem i dont get my kicks out of making stuff up and posting it on hibs.net

Also, are you seriously trying to tell me that the SNP haven't had their problems with infighting in the past? Fundies v gradualists, margo, jim sillars and even salmond in that group (the name of which escapes me, the 79 group or something), finnie amd urquhart resigning the whip amd joining the greens, Richard lyle and his virtual civil war within his own branch. Swinney being ousted as leader, roseanna cunningham amd salmond going head to head for leader.

Am i really making all of that up Jack? I must habe quite an an imagination.

[G B Young]

Everybody's votes were equal and everyone has equal right to them. Your patronising what do young folk know? attitude is every bit as offensive as writing off the oldies as past it.

There's a much better post-referendum study of demographics etc than the tiny samples you quote above, done as a collaborative venture between Edinburgh, Glasgow and Essex Unis.

Their conclusions:

I don't have a patronising what do young folk know attitude and didn't intend my post to come across that way. I was just referring to how I'd probably have viewed things myself as a 16/17 year-old voting for the first time.

What a lot of no voters did find patronising though was to be told they were 'scared' into voting no, as though they weren't capable of making a rational choice of their own.

[ronaldo7]

Borrowing perhaps from the SNP's message of "**** governing the country, let's destroy the Union"?

Truth is these council elections were always going to be overshadowed by the independence question, even more so now we have a general election thrown into the mix. It suits the SNP to accuse the Tories of putting independence at the heart of the council elections because it allows them to present a facade of downing tools to focus on local issues, knowing full well they have the pro independence vote in the bag.

FWIW I voted Labour up until 2015 and may well do so again in June if it looks like doing so will see off the SNP in my constituency. I wasn't especially interested in politics until 2014 when short of moving abroad you couldn't avoid the impact of the referendum. Party politics aside, I simply believe (like the majority of Scottish voters who rejected independence) that being part of the union is a good thing for Scotland and resent the fact the SNP would have the world believe we're a seething nation of saltire wavers in a constant rage over Brexit (conveniently ignoring the fact that a third of SNP voters wanted to leave the EU).

I recall reading Alex Salmond's leaked 'victory' speech in 2014, which made much of extending the hand of welcome to those who voted against independence. Since losing the vote, there's been precious little sign of any respect for those who voted no from the SNP, simply a monomaniac mantra of pushing for another referendum until they get the result they want. For all their bombast about Brexit 'changing everything' the hoped for spike in support for independence has failed to materialise and in my view the Tories are quite right to stand strong against a party whose daily obsession does not square with the majority wishes of 'the Scottish people' they claim to represent.


I've provided you, and others with photographic evidence of the Unionist parties listing a 2nd Independence referendum in their local election literature, and asked you to do the same on 3 separate occasions.

Do you have any, as I'm interested to see which candidate it was, and what constituency/ward they were in.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've provided you, and others with photographic evidence of the Unionist parties listing a 2nd Independence referendum in their local election literature, and asked you to do the same on 3 separate occasions.

Do you have any, as I'm interested to see which candidate it was, and what constituency/ward they were in.

Using hibs.net to gather intel for your employers. Tut tut... ☺

[Jack]

Also, are you seriously trying to tell me that the SNP haven't had their problems with infighting in the past? Fundies v gradualists, margo, jim sillars and even salmond in that group (the name of which escapes me, the 79 group or something), finnie amd urquhart resigning the whip amd joining the greens, Richard lyle and his virtual civil war within his own branch. Swinney being ousted as leader, roseanna cunningham amd salmond going head to head for leader.

Am i really making all of that up Jack? I must habe quite an an imagination.

I'd course not and had they continued in that vein I doubt they would have got any further than they did then, that was nowhere!

However dragging the likes of that in the modern era would be like going on about Liberals shooting dogs, or ridiculing the Torys for Neville Chamberlains peace in our time chat!

[ronaldo7]

Using hibs.net to gather intel for your employers. Tut tut... ☺

Once again, you are making things up. Please stop.

[ronaldo7]

I wonder why Theresa is running scared of a TV debate?

ITV have said they'll have one, so they should just empty chair her.

[Moulin Yarns]

I wonder why Theresa is running scared of a TV debate?

ITV have said they'll have one, so they should just empty chair her.

Huffington post suggests that is going to happen.

Remember what Theresa May has repeatedly said.


Bricks it means bricks it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'd course not and had they continued in that vein I doubt they would have got any further than they did then, that was nowhere!

However dragging the likes of that in the modern era would be like going on about Liberals shooting dogs, or ridiculing the Torys for Neville Chamberlains peace in our time chat!

That was only one part of my post, to demonstrate that it has happened in the past.

You chose not to quote or respond to any of the rest of my post.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Huffington post suggests that is going to happen.

Remember what Theresa May has repeatedly said.


Bricks it means bricks it.

That made me chuckle.

Be interested to see if she can maintain that stance, will be hard to resist.

[Moulin Yarns]

That made me chuckle.

Be interested to see if she can maintain that stance, will be hard to resist.

Shamelessly stolen from Twitter.

[allmodcons]

Borrowing perhaps from the SNP's message of "**** governing the country, let's destroy the Union"?

Truth is these council elections were always going to be overshadowed by the independence question, even more so now we have a general election thrown into the mix. It suits the SNP to accuse the Tories of putting independence at the heart of the council elections because it allows them to present a facade of downing tools to focus on local issues, knowing full well they have the pro independence vote in the bag.

FWIW I voted Labour up until 2015 and may well do so again in June if it looks like doing so will see off the SNP in my constituency. I wasn't especially interested in politics until 2014 when short of moving abroad you couldn't avoid the impact of the referendum. Party politics aside, I simply believe (like the majority of Scottish voters who rejected independence) that being part of the union is a good thing for Scotland and resent the fact the SNP would have the world believe we're a seething nation of saltire wavers in a constant rage over Brexit (conveniently ignoring the fact that a third of SNP voters wanted to leave the EU).

I recall reading Alex Salmond's leaked 'victory' speech in 2014, which made much of extending the hand of welcome to those who voted against independence. Since losing the vote, there's been precious little sign of any respect for those who voted no from the SNP, simply a monomaniac mantra of pushing for another referendum until they get the result they want. For all their bombast about Brexit 'changing everything' the hoped for spike in support for independence has failed to materialise and in my view the Tories are quite right to stand strong against a party whose daily obsession does not square with the majority wishes of 'the Scottish people' they claim to represent.

Stop waffling and check out the party literature. The local elections should not be about Indyref2.

[ronaldo7]

Nice first day for the PM who doesn't speak to the people.

https://t.co/Mo9tQrCPwk

[allmodcons]

That salmond and sturgeon dont get on is something of an open secret i would say. Likewise sturgeon amd swinney i have heard. And im fairly sure alex neils recent rocking of the boat wasnt done out of friendship.

It seems a tad unlikely, that you would throw together a bunch of very ambitious, headstrong and egotistical people all with different backgrounds, political views, ask them all to compete with one another amd then expect no friction doesnt it?

But if you know better, im happy to bow to your superior knowledge, my info is general political gossip amd tittle tattle.

Its not fake news though, amazing as it may seem i dont get my kicks out of making stuff up and posting it on hibs.net

Also, are you seriously trying to tell me that the SNP haven't had their problems with infighting in the past? Fundies v gradualists, margo, jim sillars and even salmond in that group (the name of which escapes me, the 79 group or something), finnie amd urquhart resigning the whip amd joining the greens, Richard lyle and his virtual civil war within his own branch. Swinney being ousted as leader, roseanna cunningham amd salmond going head to head for leader.

Am i really making all of that up Jack? I must habe quite an an imagination.

As per usual. Loads of gossip and zero substance.

[allmodcons]

I've provided you, and others with photographic evidence of the Unionist parties listing a 2nd Independence referendum in their local election literature, and asked you to do the same on 3 separate occasions.

Do you have any, as I'm interested to see which candidate it was, and what constituency/ward they were in.

Wasting your time R7. He's in complete denial about who's talking constitutional politics in a local election.

[allmodcons]

That salmond and sturgeon dont get on is something of an open secret i would say. Likewise sturgeon amd swinney i have heard. And im fairly sure alex neils recent rocking of the boat wasnt done out of friendship.

It seems a tad unlikely, that you would throw together a bunch of very ambitious, headstrong and egotistical people all with different backgrounds, political views, ask them all to compete with one another amd then expect no friction doesnt it?

But if you know better, im happy to bow to your superior knowledge, my info is general political gossip amd tittle tattle.

Its not fake news though, amazing as it may seem i dont get my kicks out of making stuff up and posting it on hibs.net

Also, are you seriously trying to tell me that the SNP haven't had their problems with infighting in the past? Fundies v gradualists, margo, jim sillars and even salmond in that group (the name of which escapes me, the 79 group or something), finnie amd urquhart resigning the whip amd joining the greens, Richard lyle and his virtual civil war within his own branch. Swinney being ousted as leader, roseanna cunningham amd salmond going head to head for leader.

Am i really making all of that up Jack? I must habe quite an an imagination.

Your first paragraph is just gossip nothing more nothing less. Then you drop back almost 40 years in order to support your point!!!!! You need to up your game. Some substance would be good.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't have a patronising what do young folk know attitude and didn't intend my post to come across that way. I was just referring to how I'd probably have viewed things myself as a 16/17 year-old voting for the first time.

What a lot of no voters did find patronising though was to be told they were 'scared' into voting no, as though they weren't capable of making a rational choice of their own.

The scared quote was from the conclusion of the Scottish Referendum Study. Either my recollection of the indyref is mental or the No side spent 99% of the time playing up the economic risk. So the analysis is justified. They did that because focus groups showed it resonated with the swing voters they needed. Clearly this only applies to a segment of No voters but there's nothing patronising about it. Why shouldn't they be scared? There is nothing wrong with being concerned you might lose your job or see a public service your family depends on disappear. It's up to the Yes side to show that there's no reason to be any more afraid in our own country than being a region run from London and that that country can be a better, happier, more open place than it is now.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Your first paragraph is just gossip nothing more nothing less. Then you drop back almost 40 years in order to support your point!!!!! You need to up your game. Some substance would be good.

The two MSPs joining the greens happened last year! And rixhad Lyle's bramch war is still going on. Amd Alex Neil broke cover about two weeks ago, but im sure its just coincidence.
.

And i went back 40 years because i was illusttating that there is form within the party.

If you dont believe the rest, fine, its no skin offy nose amd as i said in my post, its political gossip. Im not trying to hide that!

But if you want to believe that the SNP are rhe only political party in the entire world where rivalry, jealousy, patronage etc doesnt create friction and resentment, thats fine.

[ronaldo7]

That salmond and sturgeon dont get on is something of an open secret i would say. Likewise sturgeon amd swinney i have heard. And im fairly sure alex neils recent rocking of the boat wasnt done out of friendship.

It seems a tad unlikely, that you would throw together a bunch of very ambitious, headstrong and egotistical people all with different backgrounds, political views, ask them all to compete with one another amd then expect no friction doesnt it?

But if you know better, im happy to bow to your superior knowledge, my info is general political gossip amd tittle tattle.

Its not fake news though, amazing as it may seem i dont get my kicks out of making stuff up and posting it on hibs.net

Also, are you seriously trying to tell me that the SNP haven't had their problems with infighting in the past? Fundies v gradualists, margo, jim sillars and even salmond in that group (the name of which escapes me, the 79 group or something), finnie amd urquhart resigning the whip amd joining the greens, Richard lyle and his virtual civil war within his own branch. Swinney being ousted as leader, roseanna cunningham amd salmond going head to head for leader.

Am i really making all of that up Jack? I must habe quite an an imagination.

:wink::greengrin

[ronaldo7]

The two MSPs joining the greens happened last year! And rixhad Lyle's bramch war is still going on. Amd Alex Neil broke cover about two weeks ago, but im sure its just coincidence.
.

And i went back 40 years because i was illusttating that there is form within the party.

If you dont believe the rest, fine, its no skin offy nose amd as i said in my post, its political gossip. Im not trying to hide that!

But if you want to believe that the SNP are rhe only political party in the entire world where rivalry, jealousy, patronage etc doesnt create friction and resentment, thats fine.

Theirs an app called Swype which enables you to use on your phones keyboard. It might help with your posts. Might stop the sore heads too, as you won't have to use your forehead so much.:aok:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nuance.swype.dtc

[makaveli1875]

The scared quote was from the conclusion of the Scottish Referendum Study. Either my recollection of the indyref is mental or the No side spent 99% of the time playing up the economic risk. So the analysis is justified. They did that because focus groups showed it resonated with the swing voters they needed. Clearly this only applies to a segment of No voters but there's nothing patronising about it. Why shouldn't they be scared? There is nothing wrong with being concerned you might lose your job or see a public service your family depends on disappear. It's up to the Yes side to show that there's no reason to be any more afraid in our own country than being a region run from London and that that country can be a better, happier, more open place than it is now.

i keep seeing this line from the nationalists about being more open , what exactly do you mean by that . more open to what ?

and how would independence make people happier ?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

i keep seeing this line from the nationalists about being more open , what exactly do you mean by that . more open to what ?

and how would independence make people happier ?

Ive been wondering that too.

I take at as more open to immigration.

I wonder what Scotland's rate of immigration is compared to england as a percentage of population?

[marinello59]

i keep seeing this line from the nationalists about being more open , what exactly do you mean by that . more open to what ?

and how would independence make people happier ?

JMS said we can be a more open country etc etc. Independence won't give us any of that on its own, it would simply be the starting point.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ive been wondering that too.

I take at as more open to immigration.

I wonder what Scotland's rate of immigration is compared to england as a percentage of population?

You know these forms you fill in every 10 years, the last being in 2011, well they provide national and local statistics which are used to project things like housing and education needs for the future.


Fill yer boots.

http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Population-Migration

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/archive/assessment/assessment/assessment-reports/assessment-report-113---statistics-on-population-and-demography-in-scotland.pdf

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/images-report177statisticsonimmigratio_tcm97-41484.pdf

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You know these forms you fill in every 10 years, the last being in 2011, well they provide national and local statistics which are used to project things like housing and education needs for the future.


Fill yer boots.

http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Population-Migration

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/archive/assessment/assessment/assessment-reports/assessment-report-113---statistics-on-population-and-demography-in-scotland.pdf

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/images-report177statisticsonimmigratio_tcm97-41484.pdf


Thanks!

Found this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25910947

Its a wee bit out of date (2014) but says Scotland's rate is 7% versus a 14% rate for the UK.

So, are the SNP suggesting that we will more than double immigration into Scotland, so that it becomes more open than the rest of the UK?

[CapitalGreen]

Thanks!

Found this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25910947

Its a wee bit out of date (2014) but says Scotland's rate is 7% versus a 14% rate for the UK.

So, are the SNP suggesting that we will more than double immigration into Scotland, so that it becomes more open than the rest of the UK?

I'd suggest those rates are likely to fall post-Brexit. Demographics show that Scotland needs more immigration whether people want more or not. The following is a good article in the Times on the subject from 2015.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scotland-needs-more-immigrants-to-support-our-ageing-population-52nchc8fc83

It's probably pay-walled so I have copy & pasted the key paragraphs.


Figures released last week show Britain will be the second-largest country by population in Europe by 2030, overtaking France. It is then expected to overtake Germany to become the largest country in Europe in 2047. The UK’s population is expected to grow by 15% to 2039 to 74.3m, five times the EU average.

In Scotland the projected population growth is forecast to be half of the UK’s, with a 7% rise to 5.7m by 2039, coming mainly from immigration outwith the UK. It may represent an influx but it is unlikely to be enough to counter the effects of an ageing population.

Over the same period, the number of over-75s is set to rise by 85%. The number of taxpayers, however, is expected to increase by 1%.

Increased life-expectancy is a good news story whatever way you look at it, but this has implications for pensions. At present there are about 58 dependents for every 100 taxpayers; in 25 years the dependency ratio in Scotland is expected to be 67 dependents for every 100 workers. Any rise in the birth-rate takes 20 years to affect the economy. Without incomers to pay tax and support pensioners, standards of living will fall.

[G B Young]

I've provided you, and others with photographic evidence of the Unionist parties listing a 2nd Independence referendum in their local election literature, and asked you to do the same on 3 separate occasions.

Do you have any, as I'm interested to see which candidate it was, and what constituency/ward they were in.

Sorry, I must have missed these requests over the Easter break. I don't police this forum as rigorously as you :wink:

So just to clarify, you've asked me and others to take photographs of council election literature from unionist parties which includes reference to the independence question and post them on here for you to view? If that's the case may I ask why you desire such information, especially as you appear already to have 'proof' that such literature exists?

[G B Young]

Wasting your time R7. He's in complete denial about who's talking constitutional politics in a local election.

Where have I denied the unionist parties are referencing independence in their council election literature? If you took a little time to read my posts instead of dismissing them as 'waffle' you'll not find any evidence of 'complete denial'.

I've yet to see any Tory flyers, but as I've stated I fully understand why they've seen fit to include the independence issue. It's hardly some sort of stealth tactic, it's there for all to see (along with a number of of decent local government initiatives):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39641145

Incidentally, in reference to your avatar, was Paul Weller not dogged for many years by a quote he made that The Jam voted Tory?

[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry, I must have missed these requests over the Easter break. I don't police this forum as rigorously as you :wink:

So just to clarify, you've asked me and others to take photographs of council election literature from unionist parties which includes reference to the independence question and post them on here for you to view? If that's the case may I ask why you desire such information, especially as you appear already to have 'proof' that such literature exists?

He is looking for the literature from any of the independence supporting parties where they refer to a second referendum in their Council election literature. it exists of course.:wink:

[ronaldo7]

Sorry, I must have missed these requests over the Easter break. I don't police this forum as rigorously as you :wink:

So just to clarify, you've asked me and others to take photographs of council election literature from unionist parties which includes reference to the independence question and post them on here for you to view? If that's the case may I ask why you desire such information, especially as you appear already to have 'proof' that such literature exists?

You said you'd received literature from labour and the lib dems with indyref2 stuff on it. I've shown evidence of Tories independence rants, all on local election leaflets, however all you seem to say, that it's the SNP raising these issues, when clearly the opposite is true. Maybe you should reset your fake news settings. 😂

[Moulin Yarns]

Where have I denied the unionist parties are referencing independence in their council election literature? If you took a little time to read my posts instead of dismissing them as 'waffle' you'll not find any evidence of 'complete denial'.

I've yet to see any Tory flyers, but as I've stated I fully understand why they've seen fit to include the independence issue. It's hardly some sort of stealth tactic, it's there for all to see (along with a number of of decent local government initiatives):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39641145

Incidentally, in reference to your avatar, was Paul Weller not dogged for many years by a quote he made that The Jam voted Tory?

Excellent!! Local manifesto where it takes just 4 sentences to bang on about a 2nd National referendum!! Makes you wonder if she knew there was a general election coming up, saves writing 2 mainifestos

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'd suggest those rates are likely to fall post-Brexit. Demographics show that Scotland needs more immigration whether people want more or not. The following is a good article in the Times on the subject from 2015.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scotland-needs-more-immigrants-to-support-our-ageing-population-52nchc8fc83

It's probably pay-walled so I have copy & pasted the key paragraphs.

Yeah thats fair enough, and the rate may fall, but scorlands population is rising again i believe.

I just asked the question, is that what the SNP mean, and i wonder how people would react to a proposal to double current levels of immigration?

[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah thats fair enough, and the rate may fall, but scorlands population is rising again i believe.

I just asked the question, is that what the SNP mean, and i wonder how people would react to a proposal to double current levels of immigration?

The figures show a net increase of around 15,000 a year over the last year, not huge by any measure, and I think it said around half come from elsewhere in the uk. Immigration from outside the UK was also roughly 50/50 EU and elsewhere.

[G B Young]

You said you'd received literature from labour and the lib dems with indyref2 stuff on it. I've shown evidence of Tories independence rants, all on local election leaflets, however all you seem to say, that it's the SNP raising these issues, when clearly the opposite is true. Maybe you should reset your fake news settings. 😂

The point I was trying to make (clearly not very successfully) was that there's no real surprise the other parties are raising the independence question at local level in retaliation to the SNP's relentless focus on the issue above all else. It's easy enough for the SNP to make a big play of laying down the indyref2 cudgels at local level when they know they have the 'yes' vote in the bag and can simply start banging the drum again once the council elections are done and dusted. Personally I think most non-SNP voters will be happy enough to see anti-independence references in the unionist literature.

Yes, you're right. I received Lib Dem and Labour literature referencing the independence issue and criticising the SNP obsession with it, but aside from the fact it's probably out in the paper recycling bin I won't be going to the bother of taking pictures of it! You'll just have to take my word for it (We reside in Scotland's last Labour bastion of Edinburgh South by the way, if that helps your enquiries :confused:). As I think I mentioned, we also received a lengthy letter around the same time from Kezia Dugdale affirming Labour's determination to stand up against another independence referendum. Not sure if that was delivered to all constituents or whether we're on a Labour distribution list.

Yet to see any flyers etc from the SNP, Tories or Greens.

[G B Young]

He is looking for the literature from any of the independence supporting parties where they refer to a second referendum in their Council election literature. it exists of course.:wink:

No, that's not he asked for, he asked about literature from Labour and the Lib Dems.

[G B Young]

The scared quote was from the conclusion of the Scottish Referendum Study. Either my recollection of the indyref is mental or the No side spent 99% of the time playing up the economic risk. So the analysis is justified. They did that because focus groups showed it resonated with the swing voters they needed. Clearly this only applies to a segment of No voters but there's nothing patronising about it. Why shouldn't they be scared? There is nothing wrong with being concerned you might lose your job or see a public service your family depends on disappear. It's up to the Yes side to show that there's no reason to be any more afraid in our own country than being a region run from London and that that country can be a better, happier, more open place than it is now.

Fair enough. As you say though, being 'scared' to vote yes only applied to a segment of no voters. It just didn't happen to have any bearing on the way I voted.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The figures show a net increase of around 15,000 a year over the last year, not huge by any measure, and I think it said around half come from elsewhere in the uk. Immigration from outside the UK was also roughly 50/50 EU and elsewhere.

The question still stands though?

[CropleyWasGod]

The point I was trying to make (clearly not very successfully) was that there's no real surprise the other parties are raising the independence question at local level in retaliation to the SNP's relentless focus on the issue above all else. It's easy enough for the SNP to make a big play of laying down the indyref2 cudgels at local level when they know they have the 'yes' vote in the bag and can simply start banging the drum again once the council elections are done and dusted. Personally I think most non-SNP voters will be happy enough to see anti-independence references in the unionist literature.

Yes, you're right. I received Lib Dem and Labour literature referencing the independence issue and criticising the SNP obsession with it, but aside from the fact it's probably out in the paper recycling bin I won't be going to the bother of taking pictures of it! You'll just have to take my word for it (We reside in Scotland's last Labour bastion of Edinburgh South by the way, if that helps your enquiries :confused:). As I think I mentioned, we also received a lengthy letter around the same time from Kezia Dugdale affirming Labour's determination to stand up against another independence referendum. Not sure if that was delivered to all constituents or whether we're on a Labour distribution list.

Yet to see any flyers etc from the SNP, Tories or Greens.

Absolutely not IMO. I don't pay my councillors to debate the independence question. Any candidates that say they will get involved with non-Council matters (and they're avoiding me, I reckon. I've had this debate with them many times over the years :greengrin) get an instant fail from me.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Absolutely not IMO. I don't pay my councillors to debate the independence question. Any candidates that say they will get involved with non-Council matters (and they're avoiding me, I reckon. I've had this debate with them many times over the years :greengrin) get an instant fail from me.

The same point could be made about the Scottish Parliament.

[Swedish hibee]

i keep seeing this line from the nationalists about being more open , what exactly do you mean by that . more open to what ?

and how would independence make people happier ?

I'd love to hear smug Angus Robertson's response to that!

[Moulin Yarns]

The question still stands though?

I can't speak for the SNP, but as far as I'm concerned the country (Scotland, if not the whole of the UK) needs a workforce wherever they come from.

A lot of the work carried out by eastern Europeans would not be done by British workers as they see it as below them. Skilled labour from outside the UK is required to fill skills gaps in lots of places, the NHS, manufacturing, design, Computers. The list is almost endless.

As our resident population ages, they need to be replaced by someone, and the population isn't increasing fast enough, maybe because people don't want to have a third child (under the Tories benefit policies). So, in essence, from my point of view, immigration needs to increase in Scotland.

Hope that helps, but not an SNP view.

[CapitalGreen]

Yeah thats fair enough, and the rate may fall, but scorlands population is rising again i believe.

I just asked the question, is that what the SNP mean, and i wonder how people would react to a proposal to double current levels of immigration?

I hope our politicians will be able to make the changes necessary to improving the future of our country - in this case increasing immigration to mitigate the issues caused by an ageing-population.

How would you react?

[CropleyWasGod]

The same point could be made about the Scottish Parliament.

Yup, agreed, and I have had that debate with prospective MSP's too.

And the one about the NHS and education with prospective MP's :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Ive been wondering that too.

I take at as more open to immigration.

I wonder what Scotland's rate of immigration is compared to england as a percentage of population?

I can't speak for anyone else but I mean several things:

- more welcoming, yes more immigration, our economy needs immigrants I understand that there is a section of the population uneasy about that, but imo the case needs to be made for it. Strongly. Also more receptive to refugees, happier to do our bit in the world. The friendly Brexiteers are already talking about cutting foreign aid budgets. Way to go in the making friends across the globe initiative. :rolleyes:

- a more accountable, transparent democracy. No unelected House of Lords or established church Bishops in parliament. A written constitution with proper checks on the executive, no more royal prerogative. A concrete example - the shenanigans that led the UK to the Iraq war should have been impossible. Going to war is not something a PM and their inner circle should be able to cook up. Concrete example 2 - it should be impossible to bring forward something like EVEL in such a half arsed, cavalier way. It has considerable implications but seems to have been a Cameron whim, then waved through on the nod as a procedural change to commons rules.

Independence gives us a blank slate to do things that the UK will never contemplate - proper land reform, (in time) abolition of the monarchy, introduce a process of citizen democracy such as Switzerland's mechanism for popular referendums. Take the best practices we see from around Europe and the world rather than being stuck in centuries thick mud of imperial tradition, pomp(ous ********s) and circumstance.

(To be trite) we are only constrained by our imaginations. (vomit)

[allmodcons]

Where have I denied the unionist parties are referencing independence in their council election literature? If you took a little time to read my posts instead of dismissing them as 'waffle' you'll not find any evidence of 'complete denial'.

I've yet to see any Tory flyers, but as I've stated I fully understand why they've seen fit to include the independence issue. It's hardly some sort of stealth tactic, it's there for all to see (along with a number of of decent local government initiatives):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39641145

Incidentally, in reference to your avatar, was Paul Weller not dogged for many years by a quote he made that The Jam voted Tory?

You are constantly complaining about the SNP's only focus being Independence when, clearly, it's the pro Union parties that want to talk constitutional politics in, what is supposed to be, a local election about local issues.

You are correct with regard to Paul Weller. Tongue in cheek comment from a very young Weller that music press took quite literally.

[allmodcons]

Absolutely not IMO. I don't pay my councillors to debate the independence question. Any candidates that say they will get involved with non-Council matters (and they're avoiding me, I reckon. I've had this debate with them many times over the years :greengrin) get an instant fail from me.

:agree:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yup, agreed, and I have had that debate with prospective MSP's too.

And the one about the NHS and education with prospective MP's :greengrin

Very valid. What Scottish MPs do is, IMO one of the ragged edges of devolution that has never beem tidied up.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I can't speak for the SNP, but as far as I'm concerned the country (Scotland, if not the whole of the UK) needs a workforce wherever they come from.

A lot of the work carried out by eastern Europeans would not be done by British workers as they see it as below them. Skilled labour from outside the UK is required to fill skills gaps in lots of places, the NHS, manufacturing, design, Computers. The list is almost endless.

As our resident population ages, they need to be replaced by someone, and the population isn't increasing fast enough, maybe because people don't want to have a third child (under the Tories benefit policies). So, in essence, from my point of view, immigration needs to increase in Scotland.

Hope that helps, but not an SNP view.

All fair enough points mate, amd i appreciate that you dont speak for the SNP!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I can't speak for anyone else but I mean several things:

- more welcoming, yes more immigration, our economy needs immigrants I understand that there is a section of the population uneasy about that, but imo the case needs to be made for it. Strongly. Also more receptive to refugees, happier to do our bit in the world. The friendly Brexiteers are already talking about cutting foreign aid budgets. Way to go in the making friends across the globe initiative. :rolleyes:

- a more accountable, transparent democracy. No unelected House of Lords or established church Bishops in parliament. A written constitution with proper checks on the executive, no more royal prerogative. A concrete example - the shenanigans that led the UK to the Iraq war should have been impossible. Going to war is not something a PM and their inner circle should be able to cook up. Concrete example 2 - it should be impossible to bring forward something like EVEL in such a half arsed, cavalier way. It has considerable implications but seems to have been a Cameron whim, then waved through on the nod as a procedural change to commons rules.

Independence gives us a blank slate to do things that the UK will never contemplate - proper land reform, (in time) abolition of the monarchy, introduce a process of citizen democracy such as Switzerland's mechanism for popular referendums. Take the best practices we see from around Europe and the world rather than being stuck in centuries thick mud of imperial tradition, pomp(ous ********s) and circumstance.

(To be trite) we are only constrained by our imaginations. (vomit)

Id be wary of citizen referenda...!

I just find it interesting, amd a little disengenuous of people to suggest that the UK is hostile to immigrants, particuarly here in scotland where immigration rates are low, and where we still habe a society divided by the last mass immihration that took place over a hundred years ago.

I suppose i wonder whether the SNP will have the courage to lead the debate on that area, and state that they want to seriously increase migration.

My own view, fwiw, is similar to yours amd golden fleece's, we need migrants and they are responsible for reversing long term populatiob decline.

But i do think there are problems with migration that need to be managed, and i do have some concerns about freedom of labour in the EU as it seems to me, admittedly far from well versed in economics compared to many on this board, a fairly obvious downward pressure on wages and increased competition for labour.

[CapitalGreen]

Id be wary of citizen referenda...!

I just find it interesting, amd a little disengenuous of people to suggest that the UK is hostile to immigrants, particuarly here in scotland where immigration rates are low, and where we still habe a society divided by the last mass immihration that took place over a hundred years ago.

I suppose i wonder whether the SNP will have the courage to lead the debate on that area, and state that they want to seriously increase migration.

My own view, fwiw, is similar to yours amd golden fleece's, we need migrants and they are responsible for reversing long term populatiob decline.

But i do think there are problems with migration that need to be managed, and i do have some concerns about freedom of labour in the EU as it seems to me, admittedly far from well versed in economics compared to many on this board, a fairly obvious downward pressure on wages and increased competition for labour.

Any chance you can start proof-reading your posts as this is getting silly now. I know you like to fire off fifty posts a minute but it's difficult to take them seriously when they are littered with typos.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Any chance you can start proof-reading your posts as this is getting silly now. I know you like to fire off fifty posts a minute but it's difficult to take them seriously when they are littered with typos.

So don't.

[Geo_1875]

Thanks!

Found this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25910947

Its a wee bit out of date (2014) but says Scotland's rate is 7% versus a 14% rate for the UK.

So, are the SNP suggesting that we will more than double immigration into Scotland, so that it becomes more open than the rest of the UK?

I can't say for certain, not being affiliated to the Scottish National Party, but I don't think anyone has suggested that an independent Scotland would become more open to immigration than the United Kingdom. It would be difficult to attract 100% more people to come here. I think that increasing that figure to 7.1% would mean that we were "more open". If we went as far as 8% that would make us even "more open". But you bash on and ask questions to which I suspect you really already know the answer. Play dumb enough and we'll believe you are.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I can't say for certain, not being affiliated to the Scottish National Party, but I don't think anyone has suggested that an independent Scotland would become more open to immigration than the United Kingdom. It would be difficult to attract 100% more people to come here. I think that increasing that figure to 7.1% would mean that we were "more open". If we went as far as 8% that would make us even "more open". But you bash on and ask questions to which I suspect you really already know the answer. Play dumb enough and we'll believe you are.

But less open to immigration than the rest of the UK, is that what you are saying?

[JeMeSouviens]

But less open to immigration than the rest of the UK, is that what you are saying?


About 7% of Scots were born outside the UK, whereas the figure for the rest of the UK is almost 14%.

But if you include immigrants from rUK, I think it's nearer 20% of Scots were born outside Scotland. And despite what you read in the nat-bashing press, ime most of those people feel they have been welcomed.

[Moulin Yarns]

But if you include immigrants from rUK, I think it's nearer 20% of Scots were born outside Scotland. And despite what you read in the nat-bashing press, ime most of those people feel they have been welcomed.


And the 14% non native English includes the thousands of Scots that never made it back from various trips to Wembley :wink:

[northstandhibby]

And the 14% non native English includes the thousands of Scots that never made it back from various trips to Wembley :wink:


Nostalgia.

:greengrin

glory glory

[CapitalGreen]

But less open to immigration than the rest of the UK, is that what you are saying?

At present all immigration is controlled at a UK level so the rate of immigration into Scotland is currently determined by how many of those who move to the UK are choosing to settle in Scotland.

A country can't force people to come here but what it can do is pursue an approach to immigration which is positive, welcoming and encourages people to come and work.

If an independent Scottish government was to take such an approach while the rUK government strives to reduce immigration could it not be argued that one was more open to immigration than the other despite there being a difference in current immigration rates?

[CropleyWasGod]

At present all immigration is controlled at a UK level so the rate of immigration into Scotland is currently determined by how many of those who move to the UK are choosing to settle in Scotland.

A country can't force people to come here but what it can do is pursue an approach to immigration which is positive, welcoming and encourages people to come and work.

If an independent Scottish government was to take such an approach while the rUK government strives to reduce immigration could it not be argued that one was more open to immigration than the other despite there being a difference in current immigration rates?

IIRC, Jack McConnell (or maybe McLeish) lobbied the Blair government for exemptions for Scotland from the immigration caps. Knocked back, of course, but it did highlight the imbalance at the time.

Immigration tends to be concentrated around already-established centres of population, which is why we have that imbalance in the UK, with the consequent pressure on public services. An imaginative alternative way of dealing with the numbers might have, in hindsight, been a better way, eg "you can come to the UK, but you have to live in......".

Post-indy, with a virtual blank canvas, it's that type of lateral thinking that might serve the economy better.

[High-On-Hibs]

"But but.... the GERS figures say...."

The GERS figures exposed for what they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYup31qQeuA

[Just Alf]

Any chance you can start proof-reading your posts as this is getting silly now. I know you like to fire off fifty posts a minute but it's difficult to take them seriously when they are littered with typos.
He's got a Samsung.... The latest update has been a nightmare for the keyboard autocorrect feature.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

This is the kind of stuff which makes my blood boil. A family who've bought into life in Scotland, being removed by the Home office lackies. This after the Brains went through their own personal trauma of being deported.

These type of families are what we in Scotland need to increase our population, but we're not being served well by the Westminster Tory Government.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/1224752/family-braced-for-deportation/

I've only just come across this, so I'm not sure what the up to date picture is.:wink:

Hopefully someone will see sense.

[Just Alf]

Is Ruth Davidson's response to the rape clause not a perfect advert for independence?

Essentially she's admitting that Scotland is powerless at a UK level in this case and that the devolved government needs to mitigate the problem locally if it doesn't agree with it.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Just Alf]

Is Ruth Davidson's response to the rape clause not a perfect advert for independence?

Essentially she's admitting that Scotland is powerless at a UK level in this case and that the devolved government needs to mitigate the problem locally if it doesn't agree with it.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Edited 3,times to correct stuff!!!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

This is the kind of stuff which makes my blood boil. A family who've bought into life in Scotland, being removed by the Home office lackies. This after the Brains went through their own personal trauma of being deported.

These type of families are what we in Scotland need to increase our population, but we're not being served well by the Westminster Tory Government.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/1224752/family-braced-for-deportation/

I've only just come across this, so I'm not sure what the up to date picture is.:wink:

Hopefully someone will see sense.

Also had their driving licences withheld. Living in the middle of nowhere.!!!!

[cabbageandribs1875]

Is Ruth Davidson's response to the rape clause not a perfect advert for independence?

Essentially she's admitting that Scotland is powerless at a UK level in this case and that the devolved government needs to mitigate the problem locally if it doesn't agree with it.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk


i've never saw another politician with so much hatred and bitterness in her face every time she opens that gub, the labour yin can pull them as well

[makaveli1875]

This is the kind of stuff which makes my blood boil. A family who've bought into life in Scotland, being removed by the Home office lackies. This after the Brains went through their own personal trauma of being deported.

These type of families are what we in Scotland need to increase our population, but we're not being served well by the Westminster Tory Government.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/1224752/family-braced-for-deportation/

I've only just come across this, so I'm not sure what the up to date picture is.:wink:

Hopefully someone will see sense.

dont often find myself agreeing with R7 but on this occasion i do , thats a shocking story .

[ronaldo7]

dont often find myself agreeing with R7 but on this occasion i do , thats a shocking story .

And that's the reason we need a Scottish Immigration policy.:wink:

[RyeSloan]

Is Ruth Davidson's response to the rape clause not a perfect advert for independence?

Essentially she's admitting that Scotland is powerless at a UK level in this case and that the devolved government needs to mitigate the problem locally if it doesn't agree with it.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Or a perfect example of how devolution works in that there is powers in Scotland to mitigate the policy?

Or should I say should work as this has simply been used to grandstand when in reality the Scottish government could easily have been well prepared to mitigate the policy if the found it all so abhorrent.

Not so say I agree with the 2 child cap or the subsequent exemption requirements cause I don't but the moral indignation of it all is a bit over the top from those that have the power to cancel it out for the people they govern.

[Just Alf]

Or a perfect example of how devolution works in that there is powers in Scotland to mitigate the policy?

Or should I say should work as this has simply been used to grandstand when in reality the Scottish government could easily have been well prepared to mitigate the policy if the found it all so abhorrent.

Not so say I agree with the 2 child cap or the subsequent exemption requirements cause I don't but the moral indignation of it all is a bit over the top from those that have the power to cancel it out for the people they govern.
The word "mitigate" for me at least, is very telling.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

The word "mitigate" for me at least, is very telling.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

It's called paying twice, or the UNION DIVIDEND, once to WM, and we've to find some more cash from our ever dwindling pocket money.

Maybe we should take it out of the Education budget, or the NHS? Meanwhile, the Tories give their pals tax rebates, and forget to chase the tax avoiders.

[High-On-Hibs]

Or a perfect example of how devolution works in that there is powers in Scotland to mitigate the policy?

Or should I say should work as this has simply been used to grandstand when in reality the Scottish government could easily have been well prepared to mitigate the policy if the found it all so abhorrent.

Not so say I agree with the 2 child cap or the subsequent exemption requirements cause I don't but the moral indignation of it all is a bit over the top from those that have the power to cancel it out for the people they govern.

Cancellation and mitigation are not the same thing. It's not like the Scottish Government can just say, we don't like this, we're not going to impliment it here and Westminster say "nae bother".

Oh no, it's "mitigation". The policy will still be enforced in Scotland, but the local councils have the power to effectively pay for the cost of this policy in place of the mothers. Question is... where do they pull the funding from in order to do this? Keeping in mind that they are already operating on shoe string budgets.

[CapitalGreen]

He's got a Samsung.... The latest update has been a nightmare for the keyboard autocorrect feature.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

The ability to proof read something isn't affected by the keyboard on the device.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Cancellation and mitigation are not the same thing. It's not like the Scottish Government can just say, we don't like this, we're not going to impliment it here and Westminster say "nae bother".

Oh no, it's "mitigation". The policy will still be enforced in Scotland, but the local councils have the power to effectively pay for the cost of this policy in place of the mothers. Question is... where do they pull the funding from in order to do this? Keeping in mind that they are already operating on shoe string budgets.

Its the constituional settlement that people voted for.

And as i have said previously, having to makr decisions on prioritising spending is what government is all about. An indy Scotland wouldn't have a blank cheque.

Its why opposition is easy and government is hard.

[northstandhibby]

And that's the reason we need a Scottish Immigration policy.:wink:

Scotland has a sparsely populated landscape with room to build several large new cities and many more towns. Plenty scope for population growth.

glory glory

[RyeSloan]

Cancellation and mitigation are not the same thing. It's not like the Scottish Government can just say, we don't like this, we're not going to impliment it here and Westminster say "nae bother".

Oh no, it's "mitigation". The policy will still be enforced in Scotland, but the local councils have the power to effectively pay for the cost of this policy in place of the mothers. Question is... where do they pull the funding from in order to do this? Keeping in mind that they are already operating on shoe string budgets.

As I said I don't agree with the policy but none the less it's seems pretty clear that the Scottish Government have the devolved power to top up child benefit, have the power to create new benefits and they have the power to raise taxation to pay for it.

Just seems everyone has been quite happy to play politics with the matter...esp the focus on one of the exceptions to the policy rather than the policy itself.

[ronaldo7]

Local elections.

Dunfermline Labour candidate investigated for disgusting Facebook posts.

https://t.co/4IhgQyjuLL

[High-On-Hibs]

Its the constituional settlement that people voted for.

Eh, when did we vote for this settlement? You mean when were actually promised something far more radical?


And as i have said previously, having to makr decisions on prioritising spending is what government is all about. An indy Scotland wouldn't have a blank cheque.

Its why opposition is easy and government is hard.

I agree about government prioritising it's spending and savings. I just don't agree with the way the tories prioritize their spendings and savings. They spend on tax cuts for millionaire tycoons while saving on "privileged" things such as tax credits used to top up a low wage economy and transport vehicles for the physically disabled.

They underfund public and social services but have still managed to double the UK national debt figure since 2010.

Conclusion: They are forking billions upon billions to private interests and leaving the public with the debt bomb.

[High-On-Hibs]

As I said I don't agree with the policy but none the less it's seems pretty clear that the Scottish Government have the devolved power to top up child benefit, have the power to create new benefits and they have the power to raise taxation to pay for it.

Just seems everyone has been quite happy to play politics with the matter...esp the focus on one of the exceptions to the policy rather than the policy itself.

I'm sure the UK Government would love to see the Scottish Government make cuts and raise taxation to mitigate their austerity policies. The perfect Holyrood shut down story they've been waiting for. Without EU rights and protections which brought us the Scottish Parliarment in the first place, they'll waste no time with the bulldozers. They just need to force the right political scenario.

[RyeSloan]

I'm sure the UK Government would love to see the Scottish Government make cuts and raise taxation to mitigate their austerity policies. The perfect Holyrood shut down story they've been waiting for. Without EU rights and protections which brought us the Scottish Parliarment in the first place, they'll waste no time with the bulldozers. They just need to force the right political scenario.

Aye that's the cunning plan right enough [emoji23]

[ronaldo7]

Local elections.

Tory candidate in Fife caught out on twitter.

Scottish Conservative candidate Kathleen Leslie, who works with children who have additional support needs, called the First Minister a “drooling hag” and “wee fish wife” in Twitter tirades.

https://t.co/hH5TKGkJ2E

[cabbageandribs1875]

Local elections.

Tory candidate in Fife caught out on twitter.

Scottish Conservative candidate Kathleen Leslie, who works with children who have additional support needs, called the First Minister a “drooling hag” and “wee fish wife” in Twitter tirades.

https://t.co/hH5TKGkJ2E


sounds like the utter fudbaw on here that called nicola sturgeon something to do with the krankies, real class

[Hibrandenburg]

sounds like the utter fudbaw on here that called nicola sturgeon something to do with the krankies, real class

As soon as someone starts attacking a female politician for how she looks, you know they're losing the political argument.

[makaveli1875]

sounds like the utter fudbaw on here that called nicola sturgeon something to do with the krankies, real class

that was me , drooling hag is better though :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

from a few weeks back http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15187833.Ruth_Davidson_urged_to_apologise_after_mo cking_accent_of_SNP_MSP_amid_heated_debate/


RUTH Davidson has been urged to apologise after mocking the accent of an SNP (http://www.heraldscotland.com/search/?search=SNP&topic_id=8742) MSP (http://www.heraldscotland.com/search/?search=MSP&topic_id=8781),


Ruth Davidson seriously shouldn't mock ANYONE for ANYTHING,

[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland has a sparsely populated landscape with room to build several large new cities and many more towns. Plenty scope for population growth.

glory glory

3000 new homes north of Perth. 1500 west of Perth. 700 north of Scone.

[northstandhibby]

3000 new homes north of Perth. 1500 west of Perth. 700 north of Scone.

I said plenty of scope for new large cities and towns not a couple of villages.

:greengrin

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

I said plenty of scope for new large cities and towns not a couple of villages.

:greengrin

glory glory


These are already planned to be built, meaning less need for cities being built at Drumnadrochit :wink:

Edit: They would accommodate all new immigrants in a year, if built immediately. Pity they are expected to be built over 35 years

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Eh, when did we vote for this settlement? You mean when were actually promised something far more radical?



I agree about government prioritising it's spending and savings. I just don't agree with the way the tories prioritize their spendings and savings. They spend on tax cuts for millionaire tycoons while saving on "privileged" things such as tax credits used to top up a low wage economy and transport vehicles for the physically disabled.

They underfund public and social services but have still managed to double the UK national debt figure since 2010.

Conclusion: They are forking billions upon billions to private interests and leaving the public with the debt bomb.


I know you dont agree with the tories, but millions do.

Amd they have also cut taxes for everyone else too.

Fwiw your point on low wage economy is i thknk valid.

I know you wont like this, but we have to wait and see what a PM May does with a strong mandate. She may well address issues like that (althoufh she may not!)

I do believe that she is a one nation tory at heart, and has felt constrained by her small majority and so has had to damce to the 1922 Commmittee's tune.

But i,think, and hope that her political ambition and calculation will see her try amd cement herself firmly on the centre ground, where she could potentially stay for a long time.

I do think she is different to cameron et al, i dont beliebe she has an eye on board apppintments in the city after her premiership, i think a career in politics will make her want to secure a genuine legacy. Its one of the reasons i like PMs to be older.

Of course this may be wishful thinking, but as she is our only feasible option for PM, its wishful thinking we will all have to indulge in i think.

[ronaldo7]

A wee update on the Zielsdorf family. It always seems to be the Highlands. The clearances have not finished yet.:rolleyes:

https://t.co/V2O0k6uoY3

[northstandhibby]

These are already planned to be built, meaning less need for cities being built at Drumnadrochit :wink:

Edit: They would accommodate all new immigrants in a year, if built immediately. Pity they are expected to be built over 35 years

You'd admit though Scotland's landscape is very sparsely populated with the potential to build new cities the size of Glasgow and Edinburgh which would aid population growth and aid Scotland becoming a much more diverse and cosmopolitan country?

glory glory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You'd admit though Scotland's landscape is very sparsely populated with the potential to build new cities the size of Glasgow and Edinburgh which would aid population growth and aid Scotland becoming a much more diverse and cosmopolitan country?

glory glory

Why couldnt we just expand the ones we already have?

[northstandhibby]

Why couldnt we just expand the ones we already have?

We already are.

It seems to me Scotland is such an underpopulated country with vast areas ideal for scope to aid population growth and become a much more diverse and cosmopolitan country?

glory glory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So according to the highly respected Fraser of Allander Institute, one in four scottish jobs is dependant upon trade with the rest of the UK.

A union dividend?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

We already are.

It seems to me Scotland is such an underpopulated country with vast areas ideal for scope to aid population growth and become a much more diverse and cosmopolitan country?

glory glory

By building new cities? Who is going to populate them? We alrwady have open borders and a growing population.

Where would they go? What would be their purpose, and how would they make Scotland more 'cosmopolitan and diverse'?

[Moulin Yarns]

You'd admit though Scotland's landscape is very sparsely populated with the potential to build new cities the size of Glasgow and Edinburgh which would aid population growth and aid Scotland becoming a much more diverse and cosmopolitan country?

glory glory

Absobloodylutely not!!

Sparsely populated, yes, for good reason. the landscape!! what do you envisage? 120,000 homes built on the side of Ben Nevis, 240,000 homes on Ardnamurchan peninsula? Infrastructure??? Your not being realistic, expansion where infrastructure already exists is a far more reasonable proposition rather building a 'new town'


http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2005/02/20624/51512


NEW DEVELOPMENT

10. In the more accessible and densely populated rural areas most new development will continue to be in, or adjacent to, existing settlements. Green belts will continue to presume against most new development and play a key role in maintaining the setting and separation of towns and cities. Any proposals to release land for development which is currently designated as green belt should be part of a longer term strategic settlement policy and set out in the development plan. A review of national policy on green belts is currently underway. The natural and historic environment also has to be protected. However, if the national vision is to be realised, planning policies will have to enable development in some areas which, hitherto, have not been considered suitable for development. More opportunities, appropriate in scale, kind and location, should be identified by planning authorities. In the more heavily populated areas there is potential to accommodate some small-scale housing development and businesses may be able to diversify further into new activities. Designing Places sets out the Executive's policy on design and quality in new development. Its aim is to improve the quality of new developments irrespective of size, both within settlements and elsewhere in the countryside. Additional advice is included in PAN 72 5 .

11. In the less populated areas there should be greater scope for more innovative planning policies. Scottish Ministers see considerable potential for encouraging diversification, distinctiveness and individuality e.g. promoting new ways of working from home, using renewable energy technologies, delivering tourism and recreation projects and developing activities such as aquaculture, equestrianism and many others. Small towns should be self sufficient and able to maintain their function in the local economy. They have a key role in providing services to the wider catchment population. Agriculture and forestry will continue to be important defining elements of rural life. Prime quality agricultural land should continue to be protected and should not be eroded in a piecemeal way but only used to meet strategic development objectives e.g. as part of a long term settlement strategy set out in the development plan. In crofting areas there is a need to make more land available in appropriate locations for a range of developments.

[Peevemor]

Absobloodylutely not!!

Sparsely populated, yes, for good reason. the landscape!! what do you envisage? 120,000 homes built on the side of Ben Nevis, 240,000 homes on Ardnamurchan peninsula? Infrastructure??? Your not being realistic, expansion where infrastructure already exists is a far more reasonable proposition rather building a 'new town'


http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2005/02/20624/51512

There's loads pf space for development just North of P'lochry. They could even turn the Moulin into a McDonalds - great spot for it!

[northstandhibby]

By building new cities? Who is going to populate them? We alrwady have open borders and a growing population.

Where would they go? What would be their purpose, and how would they make Scotland more 'cosmopolitan and diverse'?

Scotland's landscape is massively underpopulated with huge potential to build new cities and towns across the country whereby eradicating homelessness and welcoming folk from across the globe to come and live in our country. Also building these new cities and towns would drive down house prices allowing younger folk much more opportunity to get onto the property market.

Surely you can see the benefits of expansion in what is a vastly underpopulated country?

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

There's loads pf space for development just North of P'lochry. They could even turn the Moulin into a McDonalds - great spot for it!

Not in my back yard!!!! :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland's landscape is massively underpopulated with huge potential to build new cities and towns across the country whereby eradicating homelessness and welcoming folk from across the globe to come and live in our country. Also building these new cities and towns would drive down house prices allowing younger folk much more opportunity to get onto the property market.

Surely you can see the benefits of expansion in what is a vastly underpopulated country?

glory glory

Expansion of existing settlements, yes. dumping 500,000 people in the middle of Rannoch Moor (or Moulin Moor :wink: ), not a chance!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Scotland's landscape is massively underpopulated with huge potential to build new cities and towns across the country whereby eradicating homelessness and welcoming folk from across the globe to come and live in our country. Also building these new cities and towns would drive down house prices allowing younger folk much more opportunity to get onto the property market.

Surely you can see the benefits of expansion in what is a vastly underpopulated country?

glory glory

Expansion of existing places, yes.

I just dont see why we would need to build any new places?

[Moulin Yarns]

Expansion of existing places, yes.

I just dont see why we would need to build any new places?

WAYHAY. We are agreed on this :aok:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Local elections.

Dunfermline Labour candidate investigated for disgusting Facebook posts.

https://t.co/4IhgQyjuLL


I see the SNP leader in Edinburgh is in trouble after 'forgetting' to declare that he owned a hotel.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

WAYHAY. We are agreed on this :aok:

The number of subjects we have got through lately, it was bound to happen eventually!

[northstandhibby]

Expansion of existing places, yes.

I just dont see why we would need to build any new places?

Why concentrate solely on existing settlements would be my answer when there is so much scope in Scotland to build new cities and towns with innovative architecture and a move away from Glasgow and Edinburgh domination. There's many benefits to massive expansion bringing new opportunities and additional benefits such as job creation, eradicating homelessness and driving down house prices etc.

It does require vision and drive but its certainly doable in what is a vastly underpopulated landscape.

I've just about made all the points I can make on this topic now but I'm sure most folk might agree there is certainly scope and benefits for most in undertaking huge expansion of Scotland. :greengrin

glory glory

[Jack]

I see the SNP leader in Edinburgh is in trouble after 'forgetting' to declare that he owned a hotel.

I'd this likely to reach the media?

[JeMeSouviens]

So according to the highly respected Fraser of Allander Institute, one in four scottish jobs is dependant upon trade with the rest of the UK.

A union dividend?

Not really. Buyers in rUK will presumably still need whatever it is these jobs are producing and as Simar helpfully explained recently, the buccaneering Brexiteers aim to unilaterally drop tariffs on imports whatever we did on our side. So all good. :aok:

What might be interesting is the refugee dividend if we can provide a safe haven for business exiting Brexitland.

https://twitter.com/D_Blanchflower/status/842379594158243848

[JeMeSouviens]

I know you dont agree with the tories, but millions do.

Amd they have also cut taxes for everyone else too.

Fwiw your point on low wage economy is i thknk valid.

I know you wont like this, but we have to wait and see what a PM May does with a strong mandate. She may well address issues like that (althoufh she may not!)

I do believe that she is a one nation tory at heart, and has felt constrained by her small majority and so has had to damce to the 1922 Commmittee's tune.

But i,think, and hope that her political ambition and calculation will see her try amd cement herself firmly on the centre ground, where she could potentially stay for a long time.

I do think she is different to cameron et al, i dont beliebe she has an eye on board apppintments in the city after her premiership, i think a career in politics will make her want to secure a genuine legacy. Its one of the reasons i like PMs to be older.

Of course this may be wishful thinking, but as she is our only feasible option for PM, its wishful thinking we will all have to indulge in i think.


Genuine lolz. :top marks

[Moulin Yarns]

Why concentrate solely on existing settlements would be my answer when there is so much scope in Scotland to build new cities and towns with innovative architecture and a move away from Glasgow and Edinburgh domination. There's many benefits to massive expansion bringing new opportunities and additional benefits such as job creation, eradicating homelessness and driving down house prices etc.

It does require vision and drive but its certainly doable in what is a vastly underpopulated landscape.

I've just about made all the points I can make on this topic now but I'm sure most folk might agree there is certainly scope and benefits for most in undertaking huge expansion of Scotland. :greengrin

glory glory

Did you bother to read my post where I included a link to the SPP? Would you like to explain how it is even possible to build in an 'underpopulated landscape'. There's a reason that vast expanses of undeveloped land are just that.

This map shows areas where 'manmade' structures are absent from the landscape, and will remain so.

http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A1323225.pdf

There is a presumption against developing 'ancient woodland' and areas of peatland (upland moors)

There is a preference to develop 'brownfield' land (former industrial or cleared sites)

You are pissing in the wind if you think your dream 'city in the wilds' will ever happen, and you have come up with nothing to support it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'd this likely to reach the media?

Only if you count the Scotsman as the media...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not really. Buyers in rUK will presumably still need whatever it is these jobs are producing and as Simar helpfully explained recently, the buccaneering Brexiteers aim to unilaterally drop tariffs on imports whatever we did on our side. So all good. :aok:

What might be interesting is the refugee dividend if we can provide a safe haven for business exiting Brexitland.

https://twitter.com/D_Blanchflower/status/842379594158243848


So Brexit wont be bad for the economy either then?

[ronaldo7]

I see the SNP leader in Edinburgh is in trouble after 'forgetting' to declare that he owned a hotel.

Got a link mate. I've always hated that *******. 😃

[northstandhibby]

Did you bother to read my post where I included a link to the SPP? Would you like to explain how it is even possible to build in an 'underpopulated landscape'. There's a reason that vast expanses of undeveloped land are just that.

This map shows areas where 'manmade' structures are absent from the landscape, and will remain so.

http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A1323225.pdf

There is a presumption against developing 'ancient woodland' and areas of peatland (upland moors)

There is a preference to develop 'brownfield' land (former industrial or cleared sites)

You are pissing in the wind if you think your dream 'city in the wilds' will ever happen, and you have come up with nothing to support it.

I made plenty of supporting points to suggest huge expansion into this vastly underpopulated country would be beneficial.

glory glory

[Jack]

Only if you count the Scotsman as the media...

I can't find an article on it in the Scotsman/EEN. Can you provide a link please?

[JeMeSouviens]

So Brexit wont be bad for the economy either then?

An interesting leap. Sadly, with no logic to back it up.

The buccaneering Brexiteers want to drop tariffs unilaterally on imports (huzzah!) Sadly the EU don't seem to be invested with the same adventurous spirit and are likely to impose them on UK exports to the EU. Spoilsports. :rolleyes:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

An interesting leap. Sadly, with no logic to back it up.

The buccaneering Brexiteers want to drop tariffs unilaterally on imports (huzzah!) Sadly the EU don't seem to be invested with the same adventurous spirit and are likely to impose them on UK exports to the EU. Spoilsports. :rolleyes:


Im confused. Who, or what is a 'bucaneering brexiteer'?

And i dont get how the econonic impact of leaving the EU is bad, but the much greater impact of leaving the UK (as demonstrated by fhe FoA) is ok?

[Moulin Yarns]

I made plenty of supporting points to suggest huge expansion into this vastly underpopulated country would be beneficial.

glory glory

Say goodbye to a fair whack of the £9billion tourist industry.

There is nothing to support building a Brigadoon in the highlands in your posts that wouldn't apply equally, if not more so, in expanding existing towns. Other than the fact it would cost more as there is no existing infrastructure to support your, pie in the sky fairy tale, city.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I can't find an article on it in the Scotsman/EEN. Can you provide a link please?

My apologies, it was the herald (i was looking at both at the same time)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15236979.Top_SNP_council_candidate_failed_to_decla re_he_owns_a_hotel/

So added to McGarry, Thompson, Bill Torrance and his punchy attitude to women, the Highland Councillor who fiddled his expenses (but is now selling his contacts within the SNP as part of a lobbying business with Mrs Angus Robertson, who has herself been involved in a separate lobbying scandal around t in the park), perhaps the SNP shouldnt be quite so sanctimonious.


As a proportion of candidates, i would guess that is a higher rate of 'bad eggs' than the tories and their electiob expenses problems.

[JeMeSouviens]

Im confused. Who, or what is a 'bucaneering brexiteer'?

And i dont get how the econonic impact of leaving the EU is bad, but the much greater impact of leaving the UK (as demonstrated by fhe FoA) is ok?

BBs - Messrs Fox, Johnson, Davis, Hannan, etc now joined by the Iron May-den (huzzah!)

Once more (please read slowly):

- the BBs' preferred model is to impose zero import tariffs on goods and services coming in to the UK irrespective of where from. An iScotland could therefore export to rUK at zero cost*.
- the EU otoh, does want to impose tariffs, unless the 4 freedoms are respected. An rUK would therefore export to the EU at additional cost.


* ok, admittedly I've missed out regulation, customs admin etc but you get the general point.

Anyway, as I've said before, the woefully simplistic analysis that says (in a robotic tone) the "UK market is 4 times greater than the EU market" and just expects that to be the end of the matter treats people like idiots. I imagine that there will be a drag on both UK exports to the EU and on iScot exports to the rUK. However, I also think there could be a considerable boost in iScot business with the EU if we get on with it tout de suite and take up at least some of the UK's currently advantageous position as the English speaking bridge to the EU single market.

What if we got a refugee dividend of a 20% increase in business with the EU and a drag of only 2% on business with rUK. Quids in right?

[CropleyWasGod]

Say goodbye to a fair whack of the £9billion tourist industry.

There is nothing to support building a Brigadoon in the highlands in your posts that wouldn't apply equally, if not more so, in expanding existing towns. Other than the fact it would cost more as there is no existing infrastructure to support your, pie in the sky fairy tale, city.

Brigadoon only comes out every 100 years, though.

A bit like a few keepers we've had. :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

BBs - Messrs Fox, Johnson, Davis, Hannan, etc now joined by the Iron May-den (huzzah!)

Once more (please read slowly):

- the BBs' preferred model is to impose zero import tariffs on goods and services coming in to the UK irrespective of where from. An iScotland could therefore export to rUK at zero cost*.
- the EU otoh, does want to impose tariffs, unless the 4 freedoms are respected. An rUK would therefore export to the EU at additional cost.


* ok, admittedly I've missed out regulation, customs admin etc but you get the general point.

Anyway, as I've said before, the woefully simplistic analysis that says (in a robotic tone) the "UK market is 4 times greater than the EU market" and just expects that to be the end of the matter treats people like idiots. I imagine that there will be a drag on both UK exports to the EU and on iScot exports to the rUK. However, I also think there could be a considerable boost in iScot business with the EU if we get on with it tout de suite and take up at least some of the UK's currently advantageous position as the English speaking bridge to the EU single market.

What if we got a refugee dividend of a 20% increase in business with the EU and a drag of only 2% on business with rUK. Quids in right?


So you are saying you agree with them?

I also think you are deliberately conflating a negotiating position with what the actual situation will be. And you would presumably argue that those people are wrong? So they would also be wrong in an indy Scotland scenario?

Yes, in your rather fanciful scenario, we would be quids in. But in the converse, would you accept that thousands would lose their jobs?

Also im not sure that the FoA can be dismissed as woefully simplistic analysis.

[JeMeSouviens]

So you are saying you agree with them?

I also think you are deliberately conflating a negotiating position with what the actual situation will be. And you would presumably argue that those people are wrong? So they would also be wrong in an indy Scotland scenario?

Yes, in your rather fanciful scenario, we would be quids in. But in the converse, would you accept that thousands would lose their jobs?

Also im not sure that the FoA can be dismissed as woefully simplistic analysis.

You've lost me. I don't have to think they're wrong or right, I don't have to agree or disagree. I merely have to believe they'll do what they say they will (ok with May that's a big stretch).

I didn't dismiss the FoA as afaik they haven't just offered up the "UK market is 4 times greater than the EU market" and that's that as their analysis. I was referring to the Unionist parties and their media supporters.

I accept there is a risk to jobs and services with independence* but I believe also a considerable upside if we don't hang about dithering for too long. And long term I believe the potential of a small independent EU country with a government focused entirely on its performance versus staying as a largely ignored regional backwater of Brexitland is a no-brainer.

* whether greater than the risk of staying in Brexitland is debatable and I'd like to see serious analysis of that.

[Jack]

My apologies, it was the herald (i was looking at both at the same time)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15236979.Top_SNP_council_candidate_failed_to_decla re_he_owns_a_hotel/

So added to McGarry, Thompson, Bill Torrance and his punchy attitude to women, the Highland Councillor who fiddled his expenses (but is now selling his contacts within the SNP as part of a lobbying business with Mrs Angus Robertson, who has herself been involved in a separate lobbying scandal around t in the park), perhaps the SNP shouldnt be quite so sanctimonious.


As a proportion of candidates, i would guess that is a higher rate of 'bad eggs' than the tories and their electiob expenses problems.

Aye, it's not too clever but to say its on the same level as the Torys record breaking fine and something like 30 MPs about to have their doors knocked on by Inspector Knacker of the Yard it's perhaps pushing it a bit to suggest there's proportionately more rotten in the SNP.

There's also a long history of MPs from all parties bothering the courts upto and including spending time at Her Majestys pleasure. Not an accusation that can be made of the SNP yet, although as they have only recently become a significant party at Westminster I dare say there's time yet.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You've lost me. I don't have to think they're wrong or right, I don't have to agree or disagree. I merely have to believe they'll do what they say they will (ok with May that's a big stretch).

I didn't dismiss the FoA as afaik they haven't just offered up the "UK market is 4 times greater than the EU market" and that's that as their analysis. I was referring to the Unionist parties and their media supporters.

I accept there is a risk to jobs and services with independence* but I believe also a considerable upside if we don't hang about dithering for too long. And long term I believe the potential of a small independent EU country with a government focused entirely on its performance versus staying as a largely ignored regional backwater of Brexitland is a no-brainer.

* whether greater than the risk of staying in Brexitland is debatable and I'd like to see serious analysis of that.

Fair enough, no need to rehearse old arguments.

The reason i asked if you agreed with them is that they called for tarriff free access, they might not get it because the EU doesnt want it (without 4 freedoms etc). Its a negotiating position.

And presumably you think they are wrong because the EU wont accede to their plans. Ergo, an indy Scotland in the EU would have the same trade barriers with england post indy as the uk will habe with the EU post brexit.

An indy Scotland outwith the EU will still habe to negotiate from a positiob of relative weakness with thd UK, where they would take on fhe role of punative card holder, as the EU is doing to us at the moment.

Therefore i dont see how brexit can be am economic disaster while indepedence is some sunlit upland of opportunity. (I appreciate you dont say that, and you have accepted there is a degree of risk with indy)

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Aye, it's not too clever but to say its on the same level as the Torys record breaking fine and something like 30 MPs about to have their doors knocked on by Inspector Knacker of the Yard it's perhaps pushing it a bit to suggest there's proportionately more rotten in the SNP.

There's also a long history of MPs from all parties bothering the courts upto and including spending time at Her Majestys pleasure. Not an accusation that can be made of the SNP yet, although as they have only recently become a significant party at Westminster I dare say there's time yet.

It was based on crude numbers - tories will habe ten times as many candidates as the SNP, therefore proportionately thats not far off.

I take your point, and im not trying to defend the tories (or any orher party), im just trying to argue that the SNPs holier than thou attitude is a bit misplaced.

[JeMeSouviens]

Fair enough, no need to rehearse old arguments.

The reason i asked if you agreed with them is that they called for tarriff free access, they might not get it because the EU doesnt want it (without 4 freedoms etc). Its a negotiating position.

And presumably you think they are wrong because the EU wont accede to their plans. Ergo, an indy Scotland in the EU would have the same trade barriers with england post indy as the uk will habe with the EU post brexit.

An indy Scotland outwith the EU will still habe to negotiate from a positiob of relative weakness with thd UK, where they would take on fhe role of punative card holder, as the EU is doing to us at the moment.

Therefore i dont see how brexit can be am economic disaster while indepedence is some sunlit upland of opportunity. (I appreciate you dont say that, and you have accepted there is a degree of risk with indy)

You are (still) missing the point. The BB position is that *irrespective of tarifs imposed in the UK->EU direction*, they will unilaterally not impose tariffs in the EU->UK direction.

iScotland in the EU single market will get the EU negotiated arrangement with rUK, there's no need for a special vindictive deal for us.

btw, I don't actually want Brexit to be an economic disaster and I don't expect imminent catastrophe, although a cliff edge WTO fallback might change that. A successful UK economy sustaining demand for iScottish goods and services would be better for all. However, I think it will lead to a long term decline in both economic performance and social conditions in the UK. I think it would be a huge mistake to tie our (Scotland's) colours to that mast.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You are (still) missing the point. The BB position is that *irrespective of tarifs imposed in the UK->EU direction*, they will unilaterally not impose tariffs in the EU->UK direction.

iScotland in the EU single market will get the EU negotiated arrangement with rUK, there's no need for a special vindictive deal for us.

btw, I don't actually want Brexit to be an economic disaster and I don't expect imminent catastrophe, although a cliff edge WTO fallback might change that. A successful UK economy sustaining demand for iScottish goods and services would be better for all. However, I think it will lead to a long term decline in both economic performance and social conditions in the UK. I think it would be a huge mistake to tie our (Scotland's) colours to that mast.


So you are saying that the UK wont impose tariffs on imported goods, even if they are applied to exported goods? I find that unlikely.

But in that scenario, i take your point. Your logic is correct, bit i think the premise on which it is based isn't.

[ronaldo7]

My apologies, it was the herald (i was looking at both at the same time)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15236979.Top_SNP_council_candidate_failed_to_decla re_he_owns_a_hotel/

So added to McGarry, Thompson, Bill Torrance and his punchy attitude to women, the Highland Councillor who fiddled his expenses (but is now selling his contacts within the SNP as part of a lobbying business with Mrs Angus Robertson, who has herself been involved in a separate lobbying scandal around t in the park), perhaps the SNP shouldnt be quite so sanctimonious.


As a proportion of candidates, i would guess that is a higher rate of 'bad eggs' than the tories and their electiob expenses problems.

Thanks for that.

My posts regarding the Labour and Tory candidates were more to do with the social media storm which occurred in 2015 with Paco McSheepie, and how some will never learn.:wink:

Frank Ross on the other hand, should have known better. All paperwork will now be corrected.

I wonder if the others have apologised yet?

[RyeSloan]

You said you'd received literature from labour and the lib dems with indyref2 stuff on it. I've shown evidence of Tories independence rants, all on local election leaflets, however all you seem to say, that it's the SNP raising these issues, when clearly the opposite is true. Maybe you should reset your fake news settings. 😂



Sturgeon launch the local manifesto says:

"The council elections are a clear choice between the SNP who stand for strong and vibrant local communities - and a Tory party which has become a single-issue, Brexit-at-all-costs machine"


Davidson days:

"We have two key points to make at this election. After 10 years of SNP centralisation, we want to make the case for localism - so decisions are put back in the hands of your local community.

“And, after a decade of constitutional division, we want to send a message to the SNP: we don’t want your unwanted independence referendum."



Doesn't look too dissimilar approach to me...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Thanks for that.

My posts regarding the Labour and Tory candidates were more to do with the social media storm which occurred in 2015 with Paco McSheepie, and how some will never learn.:wink:

Frank Ross on the other hand, should have known better. All paperwork will now be corrected.

I wonder if the others have apologised yet?

For someone who claims not to work for the SNP, you certainly speak like you do...

I habe no clue what the hell paco mcsheepie is, or whether you are taking the mick with that name. Maybe its a reference to tomorrow... ☺

[JeMeSouviens]

So you are saying that the UK wont impose tariffs on imported goods, even if they are applied to exported goods? I find that unlikely.

But in that scenario, i take your point. Your logic is correct, bit i think the premise on which it is based isn't.

Hey, it seems weird to me too, but it was a central part of the article Simar quoted last week.

This kind of thing ...

http://www.cityam.com/248187/option-zero-why-britain-should-embrace-unilateral-free

[ronaldo7]

For someone who claims not to work for the SNP, you certainly speak like you do...

I habe no clue what the hell paco mcsheepie is, or whether you are taking the mick with that name. Maybe its a reference to tomorrow... ☺

Your continuing line is starting to bore me now, so much so, that I've decided to post a photo of you and yer mrs each time it's mentioned.

18409

You really need to brush up on your politics though.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Hey, it seems weird to me too, but it was a central part of the article Simar quoted last week.

This kind of thing ...

http://www.cityam.com/248187/option-zero-why-britain-should-embrace-unilateral-free

Fair enough, seems weird to go into a difficult negotiation giving away your cards before they start!

[JeMeSouviens]

For someone who claims not to work for the SNP, you certainly speak like you do...

I habe no clue what the hell paco mcsheepie is, or whether you are taking the mick with that name. Maybe its a reference to tomorrow... ☺

The SNP candidate in Edin S last time who lost out to the Hearts ******* Murray. He was revealed to be behind an anonymous twitter account that slagged off Unionists in some way or other (Quislings maybe?) The revelation came too late for the SNP to drop him but they more or less disowned him. A significant factor in Murray's win.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Your continuing line is starting to bore me now. Others on here will vouch for my work:greengrin

You really need to brush up on your politics though.

Come on, your 'all paperwork will now be corrected' sounds like something his boss would say.

Amazing as it may seem, im not really into partisan politics, especially parochial spats about who said what on twitter. I despise it, amd i despise what twitter amd Facebook habe done to political discourse.

Its why i enjoy these discussions, theu are generally very good. Twitter is to political discourse what shot drinking is to having a nice drink.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The SNP candidate in Edin S last time who lost out to the Hearts ******* Murray. He was revealed to be behind an anonymous twitter account that slagged off Unionists in some way or other (Quislings maybe?) The revelation came too late for the SNP to drop him but they more or less disowned him. A significant factor in Murray's win.

Ok, i did hear about that at the time actually, its my constituency! Didnt know it had become known as paco mcsheepie gate though.

Its not lost on me that i live in the only constituency in scotland to have both labour MP and MSP.

Thanks!

[ronaldo7]

Sturgeon launch the local manifesto says:

"The council elections are a clear choice between the SNP who stand for strong and vibrant local communities - and a Tory party which has become a single-issue, Brexit-at-all-costs machine"


Davidson days:

"We have two key points to make at this election. After 10 years of SNP centralisation, we want to make the case for localism - so decisions are put back in the hands of your local community.

“And, after a decade of constitutional division, we want to send a message to the SNP: we don’t want your unwanted independence referendum."



Doesn't look too dissimilar approach to me...

Which piece of local election literature is this on?

Nothing about it here.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/thesnp/pages/8478/attachments/original/1492769664/SNP_Local_Gov_Manifesto_2017.pdf?1492769664

[ronaldo7]

Come on, your 'all paperwork will now be corrected' sounds like something his boss would say.

Amazing as it may seem, im not really into partisan politics, especially parochial spats about who said what on twitter. I despise it, amd i despise what twitter amd Facebook habe done to political discourse.

Its why i enjoy these discussions, theu are generally very good. Twitter is to political discourse what shot drinking is to having a nice drink.

I was only quoting from the article.:greengrin

[marinello59]

I see the SNP leader in Edinburgh is in trouble after 'forgetting' to declare that he owned a hotel.

I won't be playing Monopoly with him then.

[marinello59]

My apologies, it was the herald (i was looking at both at the same time)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15236979.Top_SNP_council_candidate_failed_to_decla re_he_owns_a_hotel/

So added to McGarry, Thompson, Bill Torrance and his punchy attitude to women, the Highland Councillor who fiddled his expenses (but is now selling his contacts within the SNP as part of a lobbying business with Mrs Angus Robertson, who has herself been involved in a separate lobbying scandal around t in the park), perhaps the SNP shouldnt be quite so sanctimonious.


As a proportion of candidates, i would guess that is a higher rate of 'bad eggs' than the tories and their electiob expenses problems.

I would guess that over the course of a few years every single political party will have the same proportion of 'bad eggs.' In that regard the SNP are no better or worse than any other party.

[RyeSloan]

You are (still) missing the point. The BB position is that *irrespective of tarifs imposed in the UK->EU direction*, they will unilaterally not impose tariffs in the EU->UK direction.

iScotland in the EU single market will get the EU negotiated arrangement with rUK, there's no need for a special vindictive deal for us.

btw, I don't actually want Brexit to be an economic disaster and I don't expect imminent catastrophe, although a cliff edge WTO fallback might change that. A successful UK economy sustaining demand for iScottish goods and services would be better for all. However, I think it will lead to a long term decline in both economic performance and social conditions in the UK. I think it would be a huge mistake to tie our (Scotland's) colours to that mast.

I think you may be slightly overplaying the BB part and the position that the UK will take in negotiations but even if taking your liberal interpretation as true who therefore is the protectionist party in those negotiations?

Who does all of these extensive and convoluted tariffs that the EU implement on the rest of the globe benefit? Food tariffs and the CAP are a great example of where the EU significantly increases costs to it citizens, some estimates put food costs as 15-20% higher than global market prices.

Tariffs restrict trade and raise prices...if we really wanted a more fair and equal society we should be looking to remove these restrictions on trade and the protectionism provided to the lobbying self interests. That would be a truly open and inclusive outlook not just to Europe but to the rest of the world as well.

A brief article on EU the EU tariff madness can be found here: http://www.cityam.com/251648/eus-maddening-opaque-confusing-and-illogical-import-tariffs

And if you can be bothered a wee look at the EUTariffs website is really quite mind boggling!

[RyeSloan]

Which piece of local election literature is this on?

Nothing about it here.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/thesnp/pages/8478/attachments/original/1492769664/SNP_Local_Gov_Manifesto_2017.pdf?1492769664

It's a direct quote from Nicola on the launch of the SNP local election manifesto...I'll ask her to print it on a wee bit of paper if that's what you need?

[snooky]

Sturgeon launch the local manifesto says:

"The council elections are a clear choice between the SNP who stand for strong and vibrant local communities - and a Tory party which has become a single-issue, Brexit-at-all-costs machine"


Davidson days:

"We have two key points to make at this election. After 10 years of SNP centralisation, we want to make the case for localism - so decisions are put back in the hands of your local community.

“And, after a decade of constitutional division, we want to send a message to the SNP: we don’t want your unwanted independence referendum."



Doesn't look too dissimilar approach to me...

I Harley (listen to) Davidson these days.
She hit her peak a Indy1. Alas, she's now just another blethering skate.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think you may be slightly overplaying the BB part and the position that the UK will take in negotiations but even if taking your liberal interpretation as true who therefore is the protectionist party in those negotiations?

Who does all of these extensive and convoluted tariffs that the EU implement on the rest of the globe benefit? Food tariffs and the CAP are a great example of where the EU significantly increases costs to it citizens, some estimates put food costs as 15-20% higher than global market prices.

Tariffs restrict trade and raise prices...if we really wanted a more fair and equal society we should be looking to remove these restrictions on trade and the protectionism provided to the lobbying self interests. That would be a truly open and inclusive outlook not just to Europe but to the rest of the world as well.

A brief article on EU the EU tariff madness can be found here: http://www.cityam.com/251648/eus-maddening-opaque-confusing-and-illogical-import-tariffs

And if you can be bothered a wee look at the EUTariffs website is really quite mind boggling!

Fine, I don't feel remotely qualified to comment tbh. (Yeah, yeah, doesn't usually stop me etc.)

The point was that you can hardly go around espousing Brexit as a great idea for the UK because it will remove all tariffs and then say, ah, but you Scots will lose 60+% of your export market and hundreds of thousands of jobs because Brexit UK will impose punitive tariffs on iScotland.

[ronaldo7]

It's a direct quote from Nicola on the launch of the SNP local election manifesto...I'll ask her to print it on a wee bit of paper if that's what you need?

It's not really the same though is it.

We were discussing local election literature, not some soundbite.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why concentrate solely on existing settlements would be my answer when there is so much scope in Scotland to build new cities and towns with innovative architecture and a move away from Glasgow and Edinburgh domination. There's many benefits to massive expansion bringing new opportunities and additional benefits such as job creation, eradicating homelessness and driving down house prices etc.

It does require vision and drive but its certainly doable in what is a vastly underpopulated landscape.

I've just about made all the points I can make on this topic now but I'm sure most folk might agree there is certainly scope and benefits for most in undertaking huge expansion of Scotland. :greengrin

glory glory

All this rubbish about developing under populated landscapes got me doing some research, this is connected to my occupation so it wasn't difficult.



The urban landscape accounts for 10.6% of England, 1.9% of Scotland, 3.6% of Northern Ireland and 4.1% of Wales.

Put another way, that means almost 93% of the UK is not urban. But even that isn't the end of the story because urban is not the same as built on.

In urban England, for example, the researchers found that just over half the land (54%) in our towns and cities is greenspace - parks, allotments, sports pitches and so on.

Furthermore, domestic gardens account for another 18% of urban land use; rivers, canals, lakes and reservoirs an additional 6.6%.

Their conclusion?

In England, "78.6% of urban areas is designated as natural rather than built". Since urban only covers a tenth of the country, this means that the proportion of England's landscape which is built on is…


… 2.27%.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

So, even in urban areas, there are large swathes not built upon, lets fill in the gaps before we think about desecrating the rural landscapes.

[northstandhibby]

All this rubbish about developing under populated landscapes got me doing some research, this is connected to my occupation so it wasn't difficult.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

So, even in urban areas, there are large swathes not built upon, lets fill in the gaps before we think about desecrating the rural landscapes.

There is no doubting Scotland is a vastly underpopulated country compared to its landscape. We could easily accommodate an increase of around 2-3 million extra folk in new urban cities across this country whereby eradicating homelessness, welcoming folk from all over the world and vastly decrease the overpriced housing market especially for younger folk to access.

Might not be to everyone's liking but is visionary and doable.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

There is no doubting Scotland is a vastly underpopulated country compared to its landscape. We could easily accommodate an increase of around 2-3 million extra folk in new urban cities across this country whereby eradicating homelessness, welcoming folk from all over the world and vastly decrease the overpriced housing market especially for younger folk to access.

Might not be to everyone's liking but is visionary and doable.

glory glory

Give it a rest. you cannot support anything you have said about this utopian vision of yours. For starters where do you propose this vision of yours should be built? Who will build it?

Building houses does not eradicate homelessness. #justsaying

Scotland has a population density of 67.2/km2

By your logic, you should be building in Greenland, population density less than 1/km2

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I would guess that over the course of a few years every single political party will have the same proportion of 'bad eggs.' In that regard the SNP are no better or worse than any other party.

Agree completely.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's a direct quote from Nicola on the launch of the SNP local election manifesto...I'll ask her to print it on a wee bit of paper if that's what you need?

Hes gathering intel for his work.

[Hibrandenburg]

There is no doubting Scotland is a vastly underpopulated country compared to its landscape. We could easily accommodate an increase of around 2-3 million extra folk in new urban cities across this country whereby eradicating homelessness, welcoming folk from all over the world and vastly decrease the overpriced housing market especially for younger folk to access.

Might not be to everyone's liking but is visionary and doable.

glory glory

I'm less in the "build it and they will come" camp and more for the "let's wait and see who comes then build" camp.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Your continuing line is starting to bore me now, so much so, that I've decided to post a photo of you and yer mrs each time it's mentioned.

18409

You really need to brush up on your politics though.

Im gonna wear that jacket to Hampden tomorrow...

[ronaldo7]

Hes gathering intel for his work.

18410

[ronaldo7]

Im gonna wear that jacket to Hampden tomorrow...

Your match is on Sunday.:wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

18410

Yet despite all of your protestations, you have still never denied it...

The yes campaign / SNP made a big effort to get people engaging all over the internet to try amd influence people.

Given that you are the most close minded, obviously partisan person on these boards, that you have a constant supply of negative links about oponents, that you take an unhealthy interest in other parties election literature, and that when you are pressed on an issue you answer with lines that read like they come straight from the laptop of a press officer, and the fact that you have never denied it explicitly, i think it is a reasonable assumption to make.

[northstandhibby]

I'm less in the "build it and they will come" camp and more for the "let's wait and see who comes then build" camp.

I'm more in the first camp but fully understand folks reservations. I do think we definitely require radical thinking to relieve the strain on housing shortages especially for vulnerable folk and the unaffordable house prices especially for the young, possibly on the grand scale I've been banging on about.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Yet despite all of your protestations, you have still never denied it...

The yes campaign / SNP made a big effort to get people engaging all over the internet to try amd influence people.

Given that you are the most close minded, obviously partisan person on these boards, that you have a constant supply of negative links about oponents, that you take an unhealthy interest in other parties election literature, and that when you are pressed on an issue you answer with lines that read like they come straight from the laptop of a press officer, and the fact that you have never denied it explicitly, i think it is a reasonable assumption to make.

I've told you several times.

Here it's again. I DO NOT WORK FOR THE SNP.

Enjoy your match on SUNDAY.:wink:

[RyeSloan]

It's not really the same though is it.

We were discussing local election literature, not some soundbite.

Just so happens the sound bite was the leader of the SNP launching the local manifesto. Which has been printed across all sorts of media...so yeah looks and sounds quite similar to me.

[ronaldo7]

Just so happens the sound bite was the leader of the SNP launching the local manifesto. Which has been printed across all sorts of media...so yeah looks and sounds quite similar to me.

So, it was a sound bite and not some local election literature then. Glad we got that sorted.:rolleyes:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've told you several times.

Here it's again. I DO NOT WORK FOR THE SNP.

Enjoy your match on SUNDAY.:wink:

Thats the first time actually that you have denied it. Im happy to take you at your word.

But i still think your involved in one of the campaigns, paid or unpaid.

Thanks, i will!

[ronaldo7]

Thats the first time actually that you have denied it. Im happy to take you at your word.

But i still think your involved in one of the campaigns, paid or unpaid.

Thanks, i will!

:faf:

[RyeSloan]

Fine, I don't feel remotely qualified to comment tbh. (Yeah, yeah, doesn't usually stop me etc.)

The point was that you can hardly go around espousing Brexit as a great idea for the UK because it will remove all tariffs and then say, ah, but you Scots will lose 60+% of your export market and hundreds of thousands of jobs because Brexit UK will impose punitive tariffs on iScotland.


Ahh come on...not one teeny tiny thought on who the EU's tariffs are actually for, how fair they are on the rest of the world or if the benefit the EU citizens as a whole? [emoji12]


But to address your point, yes indeed that would be a strange argument to make.

Although I very much doubt a Brexited UK will be tariff free and there is no denying the huge interaction between Scotland and rUK's economies so to some degree the warnings of the dangers of putting the two in different political, monetary and regulatory environments are absolutely valid.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm more in the first camp but fully understand folks reservations. I do think we definitely require radical thinking to relieve the strain on housing shortages especially for vulnerable folk and the unaffordable house prices especially for the young, possibly on the grand scale I've been banging on about.

glory glory

https://beta.gov.scot/news/406-million-for-affordable-homes/

I don't know about other local Authorities, but we are doing our bit on affordable housing.

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/article/15056/Supplementary-Guidance-Affordable-housing

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/media/34006/Developer-Contributions-and-Affordable-Housing-Supplementary-Guidance/pdf/DC__AH_Guidance_-_Adopted_Version_Sep_16


Residential development, including conversions, consisting of 5 or more units should include provision of an affordable housing contribution amounting to an equivalent of 25% of the total number of units proposed. Whenever practical, the affordable housing should be integrated with, and indistinguishable from, the market housing.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yet despite all of your protestations, you have still never denied it...

The yes campaign / SNP made a big effort to get people engaging all over the internet to try amd influence people.

Given that you are the most close minded, obviously partisan person on these boards, that you have a constant supply of negative links about oponents, that you take an unhealthy interest in other parties election literature, and that when you are pressed on an issue you answer with lines that read like they come straight from the laptop of a press officer, and the fact that you have never denied it explicitly, i think it is a reasonable assumption to make.

Or maybe it's simply that a lot of people agree with the idea of independence enough to care about spreading the word on the Internet? Let's face it, the main stream media do them no favours whatsoever.

[Hibrandenburg]

Thats the first time actually that you have denied it. Im happy to take you at your word.

But i still think your involved in one of the campaigns, paid or unpaid.

Thanks, i will!

Danger!!!!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Danger!!!!!

I find it ironic that such an advocate of civic nationalism as you, takes such a strong interest in the constitutional affairs of Scotland when you dont live here.

I thought civic nationalism was all about self determination based on residence?

[Hibrandenburg]

I find it ironic that such an advocate of civic nationalism as you, takes such a strong interest in the constitutional affairs of Scotland when you dont live here.

I thought civic nationalism was all about self determination based on residence?

I still have ties to Scotland and might spend my twilight years back there. But only if the political climate is one where the people living there make the decisions for themselves rather than having them made for them.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ahh come on...not one teeny tiny thought on who the EU's tariffs are actually for, how fair they are on the rest of the world or if the benefit the EU citizens as a whole? [emoji12]


But to address your point, yes indeed that would be a strange argument to make.

Although I very much doubt a Brexited UK will be tariff free and there is no denying the huge interaction between Scotland and rUK's economies so to some degree the warnings of the dangers of putting the two in different political, monetary and regulatory environments are absolutely valid.

True. I am by inclination more of a free trader than a protectionist (I think) but overall I'm a pragmatist. Actually iirc an iScotland in the EEA but not EU could strike a zero tariff deal with rUK and be on zero tariff terms with the EU single market. The best of both worlds, to coin a phrase. :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Or maybe it's simply that a lot of people agree with the idea of independence enough to care about spreading the word on the Internet? Let's face it, the main stream media do them no favours whatsoever.


you're spot on with that, balanced reporting..pffttt

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

you're spot on with that, balanced reporting..pffttt

Every political party claims bias against them.

Just like every fitba fan thinks the media hate their team.

There must be some psychological theory behind it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Every political party claims bias against them.

Just like every fitba fan thinks the media hate their team.

There must be some psychological theory behind it.

I don't think the media generally hate Hibs - but they definitely love Rangers. :rolleyes:

The print media, with few exceptions, in the UK is surely unarguably Tory?

And I can't believe you're seriously expecting anyone to believe all media types aren't overwhelmingly pro-Union here? Are you? Seriously?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't think the media generally hate Hibs - but they definitely love Rangers. :rolleyes:

The print media, with few exceptions, in the UK is surely unarguably Tory?

And I can't believe you're seriously expecting anyone to believe all media types aren't overwhelmingly pro-Union here? Are you? Seriously?

There are plenty on the main board who are convinced the media hate us. Every week there is a sportsound thread.

Newspapers certainly, but it is well known and so i dont see it as insidious or disengenuous.

The BBC has been called out for years about its pro labour, metropolitan outlook for years.

I dont think all media types are pro union, i think its probably a majority though. The nats fame has only recently occurred, it will take years for the general upward shift in their popularity to find its way through into the media establishment.

I know that John Swinneys wife used to work for the BBC, and there has always been some suggestion she was unfairly pushed out. And the ex controller of the BBC was, i believe married to susan deacon.

Bit then blair jenkins, head of the yes campaign was very senior at the BBC i think?

[RyeSloan]

True. I am by inclination more of a free trader than a protectionist (I think) but overall I'm a pragmatist. Actually iirc an iScotland in the EEA but not EU could strike a zero tariff deal with rUK and be on zero tariff terms with the EU single market. The best of both worlds, to coin a phrase. :wink:

Ha well I finally managed to extract something of the free marketeer in you JMS! My job is done [emoji12]

[makaveli1875]

I still have ties to Scotland and might spend my twilight years back there. But only if the political climate is one where the people living there make the decisions for themselves rather than having them made for them.

what decisions can you make in your new home that you couldnt make for yourself here in scotland out of curiosity ?

[snooky]

what decisions can you make in your new home that you couldnt make for yourself here in scotland out of curiosity ?

I think he means as a people not as an individual. That's fairly obvious to me.

[OsloHibs]

As another outsider, I too am curious is the plan to increase tax, VAT ect if independence were to happen? Wages would also have to increase also..?
I know there's probs a long answer to my question (I'll say!) but I'm generally interested after Angus Robertson's latest comments on becoming like Norway.

[CropleyWasGod]

As another outsider, I too am curious is the plan to increase tax, VAT ect if independence were to happen? Wages would also have to increase also..?
I know there's probs a long answer to my question (I'll say!) but I'm generally interested after Angus Robertson's latest comments on becoming like Norway.
The taxation question would be answered by the Government of the day, no?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[northstandhibby]

The taxation question would be answered by the Government of the day, no?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

There's some truth in what you state however the Scottish electorate would expect whatever government of the day was in charge in the event of a yes vote to stick to what it was promised beforehand. I doubt very much the party in charge post yes vote performing an abrupt u turn from the promises of wealth redistribution would endear itself to the Scottish electorate. I think whatever party is in charge would have to more or less act on the promises made by the SNP prior to winning an indy ref 2 vote.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

There's some truth in what you state however the Scottish electorate would expect whatever government of the day was in charge in the event of a yes vote to stick to what it was promised beforehand. I doubt very much the party in charge post yes vote performing an abrupt u turn from the promises of wealth redistribution would endear itself to the Scottish electorate. I think whatever party is in charge would have to more or less act on the promises made by the SNP prior to winning an indy ref 2 vote.

glory glory
After a yes vote, there would be an election. At that point, the parties would set out their manifestos, including their taxation policies.

It's not a foregone conclusion that whoever the Government is now would be the Government then.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[northstandhibby]

After a yes vote, there would be an election. At that point, the parties would set out their manifestos, including their taxation policies.

It's not a foregone conclusion that whoever the Government is now would be the Government then.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

I didn't say the government now would be the government then to be fair to myself.

If the snp and greens win an indy ref 2 vote it would follow the Scottish electorate would vote for similar parties policies post independence. The snp have aligned themselves with the greens and both have a philosophy of wealth redistribution.

Its extremely unlikely in the event of yes anything other than a party with a progressive socialist manifesto would be voted in.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

I didn't say the government now would be the government then to be fair to myself.

If the snp and greens win an indy ref 2 vote it would follow the Scottish electorate would vote for similar parties policies post independence. The snp have aligned themselves with the greens and both have a philosophy of wealth redistribution.

Its extremely unlikely in the event of yes anything other than a party with a progressive socialist manifesto would be voted in.

glory glory
Can't say that I've seen much evidence of wealth redistribution thus far. [emoji14] (cue an 8 pager pagger......)

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[northstandhibby]

Can't say that I've seen much evidence of wealth redistribution thus far. [emoji14] (cue an 8 pager pagger......)


Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

You're being a tad sly/mischievous there methinks as the snp and the greens who are calling for independence are doing so in light of making a case they aren't able to make substantial significant reforms as part of the Union and are arguing independence would give them full control of the political levers in order to do so.

No thanks :greengrin

I've made a very fair prediction of the type of party that would win power in Scotland post a yes vote (progressive socialist), what would emerge a couple of elections later after their record/s of being in government indy Scotland could be another matter and its up to readers to agree/disagree/bother at all.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

You're being a tad sly/mischievous there methinks as the snp and the greens who are calling for independence are doing so in light of making a case they aren't able to make substantial significant reforms as part of the Union and are arguing independence would give them full control of the political levers in order to do so.

No thanks :greengrin

I've made a very fair prediction of the type of party that would win power in Scotland post a yes vote (progressive socialist), what would emerge a couple of elections later after their record/s of being in government indy Scotland could be another matter and its up to readers to agree/disagree/bother at all.

glory glory

Of course I was. But the fact remains that some of those levers have been there since Day 1 of devolution, and none of the 3 parties who have been in power have seen fit to use them. The LibDems tried with their 1p on Income Tax to fund free higher education, but as soon as they got a sniff of power, that was forgotten about.

Which sums up my views on mainstream politicians... that the first rule of Government is to stay in Government. :cb

[Just Alf]

Not sure how it fits in to the latest on this thread but more than half of my mates that currently say they vote SNP have stated they'd likely vote Labour in an iScotland (there's also a tory, but keeps a bit quiet :-) )

if that's reflected across the wider population to any extent I can easily see a Labour government here much sooner than in Westminster.

Still think SNP will get the 1st one during a sort of honeymoon period.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[northstandhibby]

Of course I was. But the fact remains that some of those levers have been there since Day 1 of devolution, and none of the 3 parties who have been in power have seen fit to use them. The LibDems tried with their 1p on Income Tax to fund free higher education, but as soon as they got a sniff of power, that was forgotten about.

Which sums up my views on mainstream politicians... that the first rule of Government is to stay in Government. :cb

Of course it is. if you read back many pages ago I made that very same point when folk were saying the snp would disband post indy yes vote. I was making the point why would they when being in power is addictive however I concede there is a chance all or some of the parties may alliance or change names to some extent post indy yes vote.

glory glory

[G B Young]

Nothing really shifting either way on this when it comes to the polls despite Sturgeon and Salmond's regular predictions of surges in support for independence following every utterance made by the PM:

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-no-rise-in-support-for-scottish-independence-1-4427523

[Moulin Yarns]

Nothing really shifting either way on this when it comes to the polls despite Sturgeon and Salmond's regular predictions of surges in support for independence following every utterance made by the PM:

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-no-rise-in-support-for-scottish-independence-1-4427523

YES 49%

NO 51%

in that particular survey when the don't knows are removed. Wait until June 9th and it may be interesting what the following polls suggest.

47% Yes tp 53% No in a Survation Poll

45% Yes to 55% No in Panelbase poll

[xyz23jc]

Nothing really shifting either way on this when it comes to the polls despite Sturgeon and Salmond's regular predictions of surges in support for independence following every utterance made by the PM:

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-no-rise-in-support-for-scottish-independence-1-4427523

You only need to read the comments page to get the EDITORIAL LINE of this erm.....Newspaper! Jambo toilet roll! :greengrin

[Just Alf]

Got my 1st 2 local council election leaflets over the weekend.

The Tory one has a list on one side, number one on the list is to oppose a 2nd referendum, on the other side the whole thing is referendum orientated :rolleyes: .

The 2nd one was Labour, its ALL about local issues :aok: ..... so currently they're ahead of the race in my household.

(its Gorgie/Sighthill by the way)

[northstandhibby]

Got my 1st 2 local council election leaflets over the weekend.

The Tory one has a list on one side, number one on the list is to oppose a 2nd referendum, on the other side the whole thing is referendum orientated :rolleyes: .

The 2nd one was Labour, its ALL about local issues :aok: ..... so currently they're ahead of the race in my household.

(its Gorgie/Sighthill by the way)

:thumbsup:

glory glory

[High-On-Hibs]

While the opposition and the MSM make the SNP to be "all about independence". The MSM constantly bring up the subject of independence to Nicola while opposition parties send leaflets through my door..... all about independence..... :yawn:

[OsloHibs]

While the opposition and the MSM make the SNP to be "all about independence". The MSM constantly bring up the subject of independence to Nicola while opposition parties send leaflets through my door..... all about independence..... :yawn:

It's too important a decision to not be an issue surely?! You already had a vote in one of Scotlands biggest ever turnouts- and this has basically been ignored and independence is an issue again.
My thoughts anyway. I worry about Scotlands future.

[Just Alf]

It's too important a decision to not be an issue surely?! You already had a vote in one of Scotlands biggest ever turnouts- and this has basically been ignored and independence is an issue again.
My thoughts anyway. I worry about Scotlands future.
You're right, it is an issue :agree:


The issue we're having as well though is that it feels like it's everyone else except the SNP that brings up Ref2, that's not to say the SNP don't bring it up, just not everytime and never when talking about council elections.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

It's too important a decision to not be an issue surely?! You already had a vote in one of Scotlands biggest ever turnouts- and this has basically been ignored and independence is an issue again.
My thoughts anyway. I worry about Scotlands future.
The point is , these are leaflets for local Council elections. They're nothing to do with the General Election or independence. They're about electing people to make sure the bins get emptied. Important stuff, but naff all to do with whether we're having a referendum or not.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

The point is , these are leaflets for local Council elections. They're nothing to do with the General Election or independence. They're about electing people to make sure the bins get emptied. Important stuff, but naff all to do with whether we're having a referendum or not.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Seen it on the Tories leaflets and that's it. The other parties are going on local issues.

[RyeSloan]

You're right, it is an issue :agree:


The issue we're having as well though is that it feels like it's everyone else except the SNP that brings up Ref2, that's not to say the SNP don't bring it up, just not everytime and never when talking about council elections.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Urmm was it not the SNP that called a motion in parliament for Indy2? And had Indy2 in their manifesto?

It really is bizarre that people suggest that it's everyone else apart from the SNP that are bringing up Indy2, that just a bonkers perspective. I mean if the SNP had stuck to their word and accepted the first referendum who would be talking about Independence now?

Sure the Tories have gone somewhat off track by making it a primary plank of their local election bumf which is rather odd but clearly they see that people vote along party lines no matter what the election is so see a consistent (if rather non sensical at a local level) message of opposition to the SNP and their obsession with Independence as a vote winner.

[Jack]

Urmm was it not the SNP that called a motion in parliament for Indy2? And had Indy2 in their manifesto?

It really is bizarre that people suggest that it's everyone else apart from the SNP that are bringing up Indy2, that just a bonkers perspective. I mean if the SNP had stuck to their word and accepted the first referendum who would be talking about Independence now?

Sure the Tories have gone somewhat off track by making it a primary plank of their local election bumf which is rather odd but clearly they see that people vote along party lines no matter what the election is so see a consistent (if rather non sensical at a local level) message of opposition to the SNP and their obsession with Independence as a vote winner.

No. The SNP are getting on with the day job for local elections while the other parties are clearly distracted.

Saying that I'm totally unimpressed by my local SNP candidate and am looking to see what the independent candidates have to offer.

........

On a national level I was surprised at how agitated Jeremy Corbyn was at the conference in Aviemore today as he spoke about Scotland and the SNP, he really became quite animated.

I don't think he has any great love for Scotland anyway but has the 40 seats he and the Scottish branch lost at the last election seared a hole through his heart? His fired up triad might have been better aimed at the Torys or even sparked a bit of passion when he spoke about the policies the audience nearly fell asleep at as he droned on.

[Just Alf]

Urmm was it not the SNP that called a motion in parliament for Indy2? And had Indy2 in their manifesto?

It really is bizarre that people suggest that it's everyone else apart from the SNP that are bringing up Indy2, that just a bonkers perspective. I mean if the SNP had stuck to their word and accepted the first referendum who would be talking about Independence now?

Sure the Tories have gone somewhat off track by making it a primary plank of their local election bumf which is rather odd but clearly they see that people vote along party lines no matter what the election is so see a consistent (if rather non sensical at a local level) message of opposition to the SNP and their obsession with Independence as a vote winner.

Your first sentence is spot on, unfortunately that's not the whole picture.

You totally must know that the 1st referendum was a once in a generation unless something impacted on what we were all voting for? That's what was actually said..... If the Better Together folks had kept to their word then there would be no discussions of a 2nd referendum.



For what it's worth, I'm not voting SNP in the council elections (not all parties fell into to Tory Ref2 is the only issue hole) but will probably vote SNP in the general election.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Betty Boop]

The point is , these are leaflets for local Council elections. They're nothing to do with the General Election or independence. They're about electing people to make sure the bins get emptied. Important stuff, but naff all to do with whether we're having a referendum or not.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
The SNP's party political broadcast for Council elections is hilarious,I actually thought it was a comedy sketch.

[Moulin Yarns]

Christopher Brookmyre has tweeted


Local council Tory candidate leaflet bemoans SNP's "obsession with #indyref2 (https://twitter.com/hashtag/indyref2?src=hash)". Same leaflet mentions #indyref2 (https://twitter.com/hashtag/indyref2?src=hash) nine times in six pages

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Christopher Brookmyre has tweeted

I see fhe FM is now delaying her further indyref plans.

Whats wrong with the SNP, getting cold feet because the polls arent doing what they want them too?

Surely they dont think independence is becoming an electoral handicap?

[ronaldo7]

I see fhe FM is now delaying her further indyref plans.

Whats wrong with the SNP, getting cold feet because the polls arent doing what they want them too?

Surely they dont think independence is becoming an electoral handicap?

We've got an election to win. Priorities my dear boy, priorities.:wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

I see fhe FM is now delaying her further indyref plans.

Whats wrong with the SNP, getting cold feet because the polls arent doing what they want them too?

Surely they dont think independence is becoming an electoral handicap?

A bit difficult to set out plans when the opposition/UK Government won't engage, and introduce delaying tactics like Unnecessary General Elections. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A bit difficult to set out plans when the opposition/UK Government won't engage, and introduce delaying tactics like Unnecessary General Elections. :wink:

The Scottish Parliament is back and sitting as normal i believe... dont see why it would be so difficult.

Of course the UK Govt wont engage, they have stated their position and it hasnt changed.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Scottish Parliament is back and sitting as normal i believe... dont see why it would be so difficult.

Of course the UK Govt wont engage, they have stated their position and it hasnt changed.

The UK Government stated their position 'before' knowing what the proposal was.

It isn't too difficult to respond officially to the request, and discuss timescales. "Not at this time" was not an answer as the proposals were also for 'not at this time', so at least both sides were in agreement about that. But to not even agree to sit down and discuss a timescale is just petty and shows the Tory government has NO interest in Scotland at all.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I see fhe FM is now delaying her further indyref plans.

Whats wrong with the SNP, getting cold feet because the polls arent doing what they want them too?

Surely they dont think independence is becoming an electoral handicap?

Concentrating on winning the local elections, it's no really too hard to grasp.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Concentrating on winning the local elections, it's no really too hard to grasp.

But her job is to be FM?

I thought the indy ref was the most important thing, yet now it is subservient to two elections that the FM nor any of the Scotttish Govt are standing in?

[ronaldo7]

But her job is to be FM?

I thought the indy ref was the most important thing, yet now it is subservient to two elections that the FM nor any of the Scotttish Govt are standing in?


I see you've got your lines through from Tory central office.:wink:

SG doing the day job today, and discussing the Rape clause, and APD.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I see you've got your lines through from Tory central office.:wink:

SG doing the day job today, and discussing the Rape clause, and APD.

Ha ha, touche!

It just seems odd that independence was urgent, but a couple of disappointing polls and now its not.

[DaveF]

But her job is to be FM?

I thought the indy ref was the most important thing, yet now it is subservient to two elections that the FM nor any of the Scotttish Govt are standing in?

Should they not bother planning or taking part in them? You don't have come out with some far fetched theory nonsense.

[ronaldo7]

Ha ha, touche!

It just seems odd that independence was urgent, but a couple of disappointing polls and now its not.

The FM was going to outline the next steps when parliament resumed, however, that was before Theresa cut and run on a GE.

I thought Theresa might have waited for the Tory Election Fraud issue to be played out first but she U turned, and changed her mind on a GE, after saying Brexit was the most important thing on her mind. :cb

Polls eh, who needs them.:aok:

18439

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Should they not bother planning or taking part in them? You don't have come out with some far fetched theory nonsense.

Well its not what we are paying them for is it?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The FM was going to outline the next steps when parliament resumed, however, that was before Theresa cut and run on a GE.

I thought Theresa might have waited for the Tory Election Fraud issue to be played out first but she U turned, and changed her mind on a GE, after saying Brexit was the most important thing on her mind. :cb

Polls eh, who needs them.:aok:

18439

So your defence is to have a go at the tories.

Ok, ill leave it there. Youre myopic at the best of times, im not even going to try during a double election campaign!

[G B Young]

I see fhe FM is now delaying her further indyref plans.

Whats wrong with the SNP, getting cold feet because the polls arent doing what they want them too?

Surely they dont think independence is becoming an electoral handicap?

The total lack of the SNP's hoped-for rise in support for independence in the wake of, firstly, the PM's 'now is not the time' assertion, secondly the triggering of Article 50 and finally the announcement of a snap general election has presumably given Sturgeon pause for thought. If this latest poll is to be believed support for independence has actually declined significantly:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nicola-sturgeon-independence-vote-backed-by-only-a-quarter-of-scots-poll-a7700416.html

[DaveF]

The total lack of the SNP's hoped-for rise in support for independence in the wake of, firstly, the PM's 'now is not the time' assertion, secondly the triggering of Article 50 and finally the announcement of a snap general election has presumably given Sturgeon pause for thought. If this latest poll is to be believed support for independence has actually declined significantly:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nicola-sturgeon-independence-vote-backed-by-only-a-quarter-of-scots-poll-a7700416.html

The first comment on that article (clearly posted by a pro-Indy person) if correct might explain your numbers:

"Lies, damn lies and statistics as someone said. This poll actually reported that, excluding don't knows, 49% of respondents chose one or other of the pro-independence options and 51% chose the sole anti referendum option. In other words the exact same result as other recent polls"

No idea how true that it as I can never figure these things out but your initial delight at the headline might not be so clear.

[Jack]

Well its not what we are paying them for is it?

How many other jobs do our MPs have? And these are unrelated to leading a political party. There are 100s.

What about George Osborne (copied from elsewhere)

:: He's a speaker at the Washington Speaker's Bureau, where he has a lucrative contract to perform after-dinner speeches around the world

:: He's a chairman of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership

:: He's an advisor to the American fund management firm Blackrock. He's thought to be paid £650,000 a year (yes, you read that right) for working one day a week for the company (yes, you read that right as well)

:: He's a fellow at the McCain Institute, an American think tank

:: He is the editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper

:: And oh yes ... he's (still) the MP for Tatton (a salary of £75,000 a year plus expenses).

Indeed here is a list of MPs, from 2015, whose outside interests would suggest a conflict of interest in maintaining the NHS as a not for profit organisation. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154

At least Nicola Sturgeon sticks to what a leader of a political party should be doing, leading that party and supporting it at all levels.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

How many other jobs do our MPs have? And these are unrelated to leading a political party. There are 100s.

What about George Osborne (copied from elsewhere)

:: He's a speaker at the Washington Speaker's Bureau, where he has a lucrative contract to perform after-dinner speeches around the world

:: He's a chairman of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership

:: He's an advisor to the American fund management firm Blackrock. He's thought to be paid £650,000 a year (yes, you read that right) for working one day a week for the company (yes, you read that right as well)

:: He's a fellow at the McCain Institute, an American think tank

:: He is the editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper

:: And oh yes ... he's (still) the MP for Tatton (a salary of £75,000 a year plus expenses).

Indeed here is a list of MPs, from 2015, whose outside interests would suggest a conflict of interest in maintaining the NHS as a not for profit organisation. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154

At least Nicola Sturgeon sticks to what a leader of a political party should be doing, leading that party and supporting it at all levels.

Backbench MPs, not government ministers.

And anyway, are you defending those MPs and their second jobs, or just indulging in some serious whataboutery?

But as you say, nicola sturgeon is the leader of a party first, and a country / government second. Thats precisely my point.

[Jack]

Backbench MPs, not government ministers.

And anyway, are you defending those MPs and their second jobs, or just indulging in some serious whataboutery?

But as you say, nicola sturgeon is the leader of a party first, and a country / government second. Thats precisely my point.

Osbourne was a government minister when he held most of these non government posts!

All in saying is your continuing attract on the FM is groundless and yes maybe a degree of whatabootery. Does your final point not apply to all political leaders?

[ronaldo7]

The first comment on that article (clearly posted by a pro-Indy person) if correct might explain your numbers:

"Lies, damn lies and statistics as someone said. This poll actually reported that, excluding don't knows, 49% of respondents chose one or other of the pro-independence options and 51% chose the sole anti referendum option. In other words the exact same result as other recent polls"

No idea how true that it as I can never figure these things out but your initial delight at the headline might not be so clear.

Ah the polls.

Some more...https://t.co/q2K6actlby

I wonder if the pollsters deliberately leave out 16/17 yr olds for political reasons? I can understand it when they're not getting a vote (GE), but in an Indyref2 they'll be getting one.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Osbourne was a government minister when he held most of these non government posts!

All in saying is your continuing attract on the FM is groundless and yes maybe a degree of whatabootery. Does your final point not apply to all political leaders?

Im not sure he was - there is quite a strict ministerial code isnt there?

And yes, you are right about second point, but i woyld say less so in Westminster, more so in holyrood where parties rarely disagree with themselves.

[ronaldo7]

Local election issue.

Willie Young, Labours Aberdeen council finance boss is an innocent bystander.

https://t.co/3ZMaIc6Llc

Any Aberdonians shed any light on this misunderstanding?

[G B Young]

The first comment on that article (clearly posted by a pro-Indy person) if correct might explain your numbers:

"Lies, damn lies and statistics as someone said. This poll actually reported that, excluding don't knows, 49% of respondents chose one or other of the pro-independence options and 51% chose the sole anti referendum option. In other words the exact same result as other recent polls"

No idea how true that it as I can never figure these things out but your initial delight at the headline might not be so clear.

They're not 'my' numbers and I agree that polls are never wholly reliable, but one does sense that the sudden scaling back of Sturgeon's independence rhetoric and a further delay in outlining her plans in that respect are at least partly down to the fact that for all her attempts to demonise Westminster and the Tories, there's been no meaningful rise in support for independence:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-delays-setting-out-her-indyref2-plans-1-4429015

[marinello59]

Local election issue.

Willie Young, Labours Aberdeen council finance boss is an innocent bystander.

https://t.co/3ZMaIc6Llc

Any Aberdonians shed any light on this misunderstanding?

Willie Young epitomizes everything that is wrong with the ruling Labour Council in Aberdeen. Thankfully they won't be in place much longer.

[Betty Boop]

How many other jobs do our MPs have? And these are unrelated to leading a political party. There are 100s.

What about George Osborne (copied from elsewhere)

:: He's a speaker at the Washington Speaker's Bureau, where he has a lucrative contract to perform after-dinner speeches around the world

:: He's a chairman of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership

:: He's an advisor to the American fund management firm Blackrock. He's thought to be paid £650,000 a year (yes, you read that right) for working one day a week for the company (yes, you read that right as well)

:: He's a fellow at the McCain Institute, an American think tank

:: He is the editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper

:: And oh yes ... he's (still) the MP for Tatton (a salary of £75,000 a year plus expenses).

Indeed here is a list of MPs, from 2015, whose outside interests would suggest a conflict of interest in maintaining the NHS as a not for profit organisation. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154

At least Nicola Sturgeon sticks to what a leader of a political party should be doing, leading that party and supporting it at all levels.
He's stepping down.

[JeMeSouviens]

Im not sure he was - there is quite a strict ministerial code isnt there?

And yes, you are right about second point, but i woyld say less so in Westminster, more so in holyrood where parties rarely disagree with themselves.

Do you have any evidence at all to back up this assertion?

Do you think Cameron was acting in any interest other than the Conservative party's when he called a referendum on Brexit?

[G B Young]

Perhaps I spoke too soon in asserting that the SNP have put the independence rhetoric on hold:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-mp-calls-on-greens-not-to-stand-in-tory-target-seats-1-4429631

If the ever-pliable Greens bend to the SNP will here they should surely consider simply merging the parties.

[Moulin Yarns]

Perhaps I spoke too soon in asserting that the SNP have put the independence rhetoric on hold:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-mp-calls-on-greens-not-to-stand-in-tory-target-seats-1-4429631

If the ever-pliable Greens bend to the SNP will here they should surely consider simply merging the parties.

The Scottish Greens don't have the funds to fight this snap election everywhere and may target a few seats. They are not putting anyone up in Pete Wishart's Perth and North Perthshire, and are not sure about Ochils and South Perthshire. I suspect a few candidates in Glasgow, Edinburgh and possibly Stirling.

As for the 'ever pliable Greens' this is the same party that forced the SNP to back down in Holyrood on their budget proposals. Greens are different to the SNP on a number of issues, Fossil Fuels, Air Passenger Duty, Transport to name a few.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Do you have any evidence at all to back up this assertion?

Do you think Cameron was acting in any interest other than the Conservative party's when he called a referendum on Brexit?

My evidence is that leaders are quite often opposed by their own party. We have a long amd established custom of backbench MPs. Wr have no equivalent at holyrood, which is one of its weaknesses imo.

[High-On-Hibs]

Surely people won't be daft enough to re-elect fluffy in the General Election? Considering he is one of the 44 tory MPs being investigated for electoral expense fraud?

Although in saying that.... fraudulent, devious behaviour seems to spur the tories on..... :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

It looks like the Tories, or their supporters are taking things to another level.

More suspect packages. https://t.co/jjsUdv6TI7

[RyeSloan]

It looks like the Tories, or their supporters are taking things to another level.

More suspect packages. https://t.co/jjsUdv6TI7

Any evidence that it was the Tories that sent the 'crystals' or indeed if it was a Tory voter or are you just making that up?

[JeMeSouviens]

My evidence is that leaders are quite often opposed by their own party. We have a long amd established custom of backbench MPs. Wr have no equivalent at holyrood, which is one of its weaknesses imo.

So, no evidence then.

[Moulin Yarns]

Any evidence that it was the Tories that sent the 'crystals' or indeed if it was a Tory voter or are you just making that up?

Well. The report mentioned a note in the package.

[Mr Grieves]

It looks like the Tories, or their supporters are taking things to another level.

More suspect packages. https://t.co/jjsUdv6TI7

Atleast it wasn't something offensive, like stickers.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So, no evidence then.

What i just said above??