Indy Ref 2

[Mantis Toboggan]

So you agree with all that Alex Salmond says? His opinion is the deciding factor?

The guys all over the place and full of personal abuse. Ignore him.

[makaveli1875]

im reading that if we leave the union we are out of nato as well as the EU

[Moulin Yarns]

im reading that if we leave the union we are out of nato as well as the EU

Let the scaremongering begin.

Actually not such a bad idea for a fledgling new nation state, costs that could well be better spent elsewhere

[PeeJay]

Polls mean nothing, elections do.

Well, ultimately yes -- but this is about a referendum not an election and about whether a "referendum" should be be called or not - and like it or not, polls can provide an indication of whether the called referendum could be successful or not. They shouldn't be relied on 100%, but not sure you can simply dismiss them as you do ...

[Moulin Yarns]

Polling on whether to hold a second referendum in Scotland is 53% against and 47% for, not the overwhelming opposition that is being pumped out by the media

[southfieldhibby]

But wasn't it "wee pablo from spain" who was going to stand in our way and stop us gaining entry? :dunno:

seems that juan and jaime had a word in wee pablo's lug and got him telt.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/these-spanish-politicians-say-spain-wont-stop-scotland-joini?utm_term=.gr6O0dln5#.uyVz01yKj

[bingo70]

Motives for my voting yes have nothing to do with finances, EU, NATO, Sturgeon, Westminster or the English.

Quite simply I think countries should make their own decision for their own country and then they should have to live or die by those decisions.

IMO Scotland and England are very different countries now, immigration for example appears to be a real problem for them while it isn't for us. That doesn't make them a bunch of horrible foreign hating racists or us the good guys, it's just we've got very different needs to them, as you'd expect given our relative sizes.

Appreciate that's maybe very simplistic but imo the financial arguments for and against all cancel each other out so that's what it boils down to for me.

[southfieldhibby]

Ok, I will attempt to look beyond your childish, arrogant, insulting condescension and blatant ignorance and try and respond.

1. Where in your "raw data" are you accounting for post-Brexit relocation of business to an iScotland in the EU*? And that's short term, your long term analysis of inward investment to Scotland in the scenarios of part of a hard Brexit UK and an independent country within the single market will also be appreciated.

* btw, don't take my word for this, here's anti-Scottish independence Welsh Labour MP, Geraint Davies, "But would you accept, given what's happened, in the event that Scotland did become independent and part of the EU, trading within the EU so it wouldn't face any tariffs, that would provoke a lot of industries from England and Wales, sadly, to simply migrate to Scotland, up the road. It would be a disaster for England and Wales if Scotland were to go and take all this industry to work within the EU."

Let's say for example that tariffs on trade with England act as a 5% brake on cross-border trade but our favourable position in the single market boosts EU trade by a quarter. (1.25 * .17) + (0.68 * 0.95) + 0.15 = 1.01 (RoW unchanged). Now obviously I've just plucked those numbers out of thin air but I'm sure a super clever-clogs like yourself can come up with a bang on point analysis.

2. Scotland does not have a deficit in the traditional sense as it does not borrow anything (it also only sets rates of a very limited part the tax powers applied here). However, it is true that the gap between taxes raised in Scotland and current expenditure by the Scottish and UK governments is not a position anyone should want to be in (so why do you want to stay in it?) btw, "Legacy debt" as in a population share of UK debt repayments *is* included in GERS (and accuracy is always helpful). Any negotiation of iScotland's commitment to support historical debt accrued by the UK would be influenced by our population share of all UK assets. These are disproportionately outside Scotland so would see a reduction in our favour.

3. The unemployment rate in the Eurozone is irrelevant and I don't even know what that's doing there but I suppose it's marginally preferable to tedious Braveheart and/or Wee Jimmie Krankie jokes :rolleyes:

4. How do you propose to tackle Scotland's demographic challenges as a region in a country where the governing party is hellbent on reducing immigration as one of its key priorities?

5. What's your strategy for tackling Scotland's "deficit" or would you rather keep us "too poor" so we shut up and eat our cereal?

Did you ever get a reply? Everyone else did.

[JeMeSouviens]

Did you ever get a reply? Everyone else did.

No (you'll be amazed to hear).

[ekhibee]

Although I'll be voting Yes to independence, just as I did 2 years ago, I'll be surprised if we win. There's approx. half a million English people living/working in Scotland and I find it hard to believe that many of them will vote for Scotland to break away. Edinburgh's a good example of that, and Aberdeen with a lot of oil workers from down south. I've nothing against these people at all, I just don't think they'll vote for Independence.

[Geo_1875]

Although I'll be voting Yes to independence, just as I did 2 years ago, I'll be surprised if we win. There's approx. half a million English people living/working in Scotland and I find it hard to believe that many of them will vote for Scotland to break away. Edinburgh's a good example of that, and Aberdeen with a lot of oil workers from down south. I've nothing against these people at all, I just don't think they'll vote for Independence.

That number seems quite high. I'd be surprised if there are 500,000 English nationals registered to vote in Scotland. Also there a good few EU nationals who might vote yes this time so the numbers might balance out.

[pacoluna]

Polling on whether to hold a second referendum in Scotland is 53% against and 47% for, not the overwhelming opposition that is being pumped out by the media

Wonder what the polling was for there to be an EU referendum.

[pacoluna]

That number seems quite high. I'd be surprised if there are 500,000 English nationals registered to vote in Scotland. Also there a good few EU nationals who might vote yes this time so the numbers might balance out.

Roughly 220,000 new eligible 16/17 year voters this time around.

[JeMeSouviens]

Roughly 220,000 new eligible 16/17 year voters this time around.

Including my younger laddie - nailed on Yes! :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

That number seems quite high. I'd be surprised if there are 500,000 English nationals registered to vote in Scotland. Also there a good few EU nationals who might vote yes this time so the numbers might balance out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Scotland#Place_of_birth

459K English born in the 2011 census - although not the same as English nationals and not sure how many will be voting age. The numbers were naturally v poor for Yes last time in this group. Hopefully Brexit might play disproportionately for us here.

[cabbageandribs1875]

is it wrong to want to tickle the throat of Nigel Farage...with my fist, break every one of his teeth during the process, then hold his head under water for a minimum of 10 minutes, and if i did would i get charged for it

[Moulin Yarns]

is it wrong to want to tickle the throat of Nigel Farage...with my fist, break every one of his teeth during the process, then hold his head under water for a minimum of 10 minutes, and if i did would i get charged for it

I would charge you, and anyone else that wanted go about £10 a minute :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

I would charge you, and anyone else that wanted go about £10 a minute :greengrin



selling yourself short :)

[Bristolhibby]

Although I'll be voting Yes to independence, just as I did 2 years ago, I'll be surprised if we win. There's approx. half a million English people living/working in Scotland and I find it hard to believe that many of them will vote for Scotland to break away. Edinburgh's a good example of that, and Aberdeen with a lot of oil workers from down south. I've nothing against these people at all, I just don't think they'll vote for Independence.

Only got one English mate in Scotland. Lives in aberdeen married to a local girl. He is a stick on Yes and voted Yes last time.

J

[Peevemor]

I'm in no way religious, but I find this statement excellent.

http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news_and_events/news/recent/church_responds_to_second_referendum_request#.WMfQ f0lH-me.facebook

[Moulin Yarns]

selling yourself short :)

Call it a loss leader :wink: I will make on the £50 a go at Whacking a wet kipper across Boris's face

[Peevemor]

Although I'll be voting Yes to independence, just as I did 2 years ago, I'll be surprised if we win. There's approx. half a million English people living/working in Scotland and I find it hard to believe that many of them will vote for Scotland to break away. Edinburgh's a good example of that, and Aberdeen with a lot of oil workers from down south. I've nothing against these people at all, I just don't think they'll vote for Independence.

Even those who are settled in Scotland and are pro EU?

[northstandhibby]

Call it a loss leader :wink: I will make on the £50 a go at Whacking a wet kipper across Boris's face

Get Gove in the mix and I'll pay £200 a whack at the pair of the brexitossbags.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

Get Gove in the mix and I'll pay £200 a whack at the pair of the brexitossbags.

glory glory

I see I am onto something here. Entrepreneur spirit is alive in Scotland, that will ever work!!

[stantonhibby]

is it wrong to want to tickle the throat of Nigel Farage...with my fist, break every one of his teeth during the process, then hold his head under water for a minimum of 10 minutes, and if i did would i get charged for it

You should probably be thanking him as without him/UKIP it is highly unlikely there would have been a referendum on the EU and consequently no 2nd indyref

[wpj]

is it wrong to want to tickle the throat of Nigel Farage...with my fist, break every one of his teeth during the process, then hold his head under water for a minimum of 10 minutes, and if i did would i get charged for it

Pay per view could net a wee fortune. Better to get his best pal Trump to box against him. Double knockout please

[Hibernia&Alba]

Whatever one's view, it's a shame the independence debate always descends into the ridiculous very quickly. It was for this reason I stayed out of the first referendum thread completely. Let's all think before hitting the keyboard, eh?

[JeMeSouviens]

Whatever one's view, it's a shame the independence debate always descends into the ridiculous very quickly. It was for this reason I stayed out of the first referendum thread completely. Let's all think before hitting the keyboard, eh?

It is a real shame and while there are clearly idiots on all sides, it's definitely in Unionism's interest to have folk switching off from debate asap. :(

[cabbageandribs1875]

Get Gove in the mix and I'll pay £200 a whack at the pair of the brexitossbags.

glory glory


I see I am onto something here. Entrepreneur spirit is alive in Scotland, that will ever work!!


Add that anti-scottish,racist, vile human being katie hopkins and the sky's the limit :greengrin infact, up in the sky would be ideal, is venus part of the sky :dunno:


You should probably be thanking him as without him/UKIP it is highly unlikely there would have been a referendum on the EU and consequently no 2nd indyref

i'l be perfectly honest, after voting yes in the last referendum i(and no doubt many others) had to do some serious thinking with the price of oil plummeting just a short while after the vote, since then i've been thinking it was maybe for the best the no's won the day, but...Brexit really is a total game changer now(imo) i'm thinking that we could now get a 2nd chance to stay in the EU...and the only way for that to happen has to include indy2 :agree: but..if we were never to gain independence i would ALWAYS vote for the SNP(like i've done for the last 37 years) because they are the ONLY political party in scotland that can get the best possible deal for this country, that will never change, their is no option in scotland(imo) :) without Brexit it would be a pretty heart-tugging decision on which way to vote if it was just a referendum for independence.


Pay per view could net a wee fortune. Better to get his best pal Trump to box against him. Double knockout please


would get viewing for free if it was on Kodi :greengrin

[Jack]

Although I'll be voting Yes to independence, just as I did 2 years ago, I'll be surprised if we win. There's approx. half a million English people living/working in Scotland and I find it hard to believe that many of them will vote for Scotland to break away. Edinburgh's a good example of that, and Aberdeen with a lot of oil workers from down south. I've nothing against these people at all, I just don't think they'll vote for Independence.

I'm English. I'll be voting Yes again.

[Slavers]

I'm English. I'll be voting Yes again.

I hope if a remain UK votes wins then comments about foreigners (the English) swaying the vote will not become a nasty part of the independence review into how they lost the vote.

[Jack]

I hope if a remain UK votes wins then comments about foreigners (the English) swaying the vote will not become a nasty part of the independence review into how they lost the vote.

I can't remember anything like that happening, other than tongue in cheek, the last time.

Indeed I often wonder if much of the anti English stuff is an excuse made up by attention seeking English people playing the victim card who would be regarded as pricks wherever they were, including England!

[Slavers]

I can't remember anything like that happening, other than tongue in cheek, the last time.

Indeed I often wonder if much of the anti English stuff is an excuse made up by attention seeking English people playing the victim card who would be regarded as pricks wherever they were, including England!

First hand experience living and working in Scotland all my life I can assure you there is anti-English feeling among a lot of Scottish people. Loads of **** the English chat in pubs up and down Scotland for no other reason than they hate England.

[ronaldo7]

First hand experience living and working in Scotland all my life I can assure you there is anti-English feeling among a lot of Scottish people. Loads of **** the English chat in pubs up and down Scotland for no other reason than they hate England.

First hand experience living and working in England part of my life, I can assure you there is anti-Scots feeling among a lot of English people. Loads of **** the sweaties chat in pubs up and down England for no other reason than they hate Scotland.

You get pricks everywhere.:aok:

[Slavers]

First hand experience living and working in England part of my life, I can assure you there is anti-Scots feeling among a lot of English people. Loads of **** the sweaties chat in pubs up and down England for no other reason than they hate Scotland.

You get pricks everywhere.:aok:

I have family in England and I can say in all honesty the resentment towards Scotland from England is nothing compared to the chip on the shoulder hatred shown towards England from many Scots.

[cabbageandribs1875]

First hand experience living and working in Scotland all my life I can assure you there is anti-English feeling among a lot of Scottish people. Loads of **** the English chat in pubs up and down Scotland for no other reason than they hate England.



that's really sad :( thank goodness the english aren't anti-scots though, must only be nigel farage and katie hopkins



can i just add, as much as i hate national anthems at sporting events, it was great both english and scots rugby fans at least respecting each others anthems at twickenham :agree:

[ronaldo7]

I have family in England and I can say in all honesty the resentment towards Scotland from England is nothing compared to the chip on the shoulder hatred shown towards England from many Scots.

I have family in Scotland and I can say in all honesty the resentment towards England from Scotland is nothing compared to the arrogance and hatred shown towards Scotland from many English.

Look, let's get this straight. There are plebs on both sides of the border. We just have to rise above it and vote Yes.:greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

What about the Scots hating Scots?

Self loathing and belittling is the worst.

J

[ronaldo7]

What about the Scots hating Scots?

Self loathing and belittling is the worst.

J

Yorkshire v Lancashire
London v the rest
Glasgow v Edinburgh

Just because you get the oddball in a pub, doesn't make everyone the same.:aok:

[Bristolhibby]

Yorkshire v Lancashire
London v the rest
Glasgow v Edinburgh

Just because you get the oddball in a pub, doesn't make everyone the same.:aok:

Agree, and quite frankly much of it is pub talk. I hate the English football/rugby team, but hate the English, no way!

I live in England and my wife is English. Do people haye me because I'm Scottish? Nope? Never felt that in my life.

J

[snooky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pkCiSQjkDo

Dick the Hibby tells it like it is (or at least, how it should be).

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting blog from:

Simon Wren-Lewis

Professor of Economic Policy at the Blavatnik School of Government, Oxford University, and a fellow of Merton College.
Winner of the New Statesman SPERI Prize in Political Economy 2016

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2017/03/brexit-makes-economics-of-scottish.html


But the bottom line is that the case for Scottish independence is now much stronger than it was in 2014. Then a brighter future outside the UK was patriotic wishful thinking. Now, if they can stay in the Single Market, it is almost a certainty.

[Hibrandenburg]

I have family in England and I can say in all honesty the resentment towards Scotland from England is nothing compared to the chip on the shoulder hatred shown towards England from many Scots.

I've lived in England and in my experience it's all good banter until the drink starts loosening the mask.

[Slavers]

I've lived in England and in my experience it's all good banter until the drink starts loosening the mask.

What is under the mask? Hatred of all things Scottish?

[snooky]

Interesting blog from:

Simon Wren-Lewis

Professor of Economic Policy at the Blavatnik School of Government, Oxford University, and a fellow of Merton College.
Winner of the New Statesman SPERI Prize in Political Economy 2016

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2017/03/brexit-makes-economics-of-scottish.html


Quote from the article.
"No, that is not what you read in the papers or see on the TV, but I’m talking about the real world, not the political fantasy that seems so dominant today."

[Hibrandenburg]

What is under the mask? Hatred of all things Scottish?

Mainly a seething resentment. All fine and dandy until a certain alcohol blood levels has been reached then the "do you know what's wrong with you jocks" speeches start. To be fair we've probably got the same amount of that particular type of walloper but you are suggesting otherwise.

[ronaldo7]

YES movement are getting help from many areas throughout Scotland. Not least, the people from, Labour for Independence, who are going through a surge in support.

Every little helps.:greengrin

https://t.co/DAhcTagTSl

[Slavers]

Mainly a seething resentment. All fine and dandy until a certain alcohol blood levels has been reached then the "do you know what's wrong with you jocks" speeches start. To be fair we've probably got the same amount of that particular type of walloper but you are suggesting otherwise.

Yes I'm my experience chip on the shoulder Scots are more prevalent than English who resent Scotland. I mean why would England resent Scotland? What would their motivation be?

Scotland for many years In the past and more so in recent times blamed the English for their woes. Sturgeon being the most high profile chip on the shoulder type of recent times.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes I'm my experience chip on the shoulder Scots are more prevalent than English who resent Scotland. I mean why would England resent Scotland? What would their motivation be?

Scotland for many years In the past and more so in recent times blamed the English for their woes. Sturgeon being the most high profile chip on the shoulder type of recent times.

Seriously?

[Slavers]

Seriously?

Yes seriously I'd say that attitude was rife back in the day in scottish communities. It did seem to fade but in recent times it does seem to be creeping back into us and them identity politics and social attitudes. I think this is the SNP influences over the past decade.

But in saying that there are more decent people than there are numpties.

The reason i said this is because a poster said before in the thread that the amount of English in Edinburgh could decide the next independence referendum and I said I hope this is not the start of blaming the foreigners (the english) if the independent vote is lost.

I also hope that we don't return to the ignorant views of the past.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes seriously I'd say that attitude was rife back in the day in scottish communities. It did seem to fade but in recent times but it does seem to be creeping back into us and them identity politics and social attitudes. I think the is the SNP influences over the past decade.

But in saying that there are more decent people than there are numpties.

The reason i said this is because a poster said before in the thread that the amount of English in Edinburgh could decide the next independence referendum and I said I hope this is not the start of blaming the foreigners (the english) if the independent vote is lost.

I'm also hope that we don't return to the ignorant views of the past.

I agree to an extent that it was much more prevalent and has faded. Personally I put that down in part to having the limited power over ourselves we have since devolution. I don't agree it has risen in recent times, I think that is largely imagined by Unionists who see every expression of support for Scottish independence as nasty, divisive, anti-English, etc.

Once we are independent we will have zero opportunity for anyone to blame our troubles on anyone but ourselves. We will have total responsibility and be all the healthier for it.

[The Green Goblin]

Have you heard Paul Nuttal's proposals for a "fairer" deal for England on devolution?

The English probably aren't going to be daft enough to keep propping up our ailing economy for much longer. With our serious demographic and workforce issues that lead to that economic underperformance under threat of being worsened by Brexit, I'm not optimistic about the future in a Scotland within the UK but not the EU.

The Union has served a purpose and there would have been times when I'd have voted to remain within it but I think it's run it's course. England and the rest of the UK want to go one way, we seem to want to go another and it is only a loyalty to a red, white and blue flag and a sentimental vision of the past that stand in it's way.

I don't understand why England want us to stay, as I think they deserve to be able to carry on in the direction they wish to in peace, without a country a tenth of it's size constantly banging on about independence and ludicrously claiming/demanding to be an equal partner in a relationship that is anything but.

I was wondering this today too.

[easty]

Yes I'm my experience chip on the shoulder Scots are more prevalent than English who resent Scotland. I mean why would England resent Scotland? What would their motivation be?

Scotland for many years In the past and more so in recent times blamed the English for their woes. Sturgeon being the most high profile chip on the shoulder type of recent times.

I lived in Leeds for 5 years and got weekly anti-Scots abuse when I was playing football.

I've played with English folk in my team up here and never heard any anti-English stuff to them.

A neighbour in Leeds complained to my wife that when I had the lads down we were too loud, and out on the street shouting "see you jimmy" late at night and trying to break her fence. That's genuinely what she said. She was a delusional twat.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes seriously I'd say that attitude was rife back in the day in scottish communities. It did seem to fade but in recent times it does seem to be creeping back into us and them identity politics and social attitudes. I think this is the SNP influences over the past decade.

But in saying that there are more decent people than there are numpties.

The reason i said this is because a poster said before in the thread that the amount of English in Edinburgh could decide the next independence referendum and I said I hope this is not the start of blaming the foreigners (the english) if the independent vote is lost.

I also hope that we don't return to the ignorant views of the past.

You can't be serious to say that anti English sentiment in Scotland is higher than anti Scottish sentiment in England and then go on to blame it on the SNP. I think the SNP message is warm and cuddly compared with that of the Scottish hating tory government, Nigel Farage and Katy Price. I think your opinion is utterly subjective and we'll wide of the mark.

[Slavers]

You can't be serious to say that anti English sentiment in Scotland is higher than anti Scottish sentiment in England and then go on to blame it on the SNP. I think the SNP message is warm and cuddly compared with that of the Scottish hating tory government, Nigel Farage and Katy Price. I think your opinion is utterly subjective and we'll wide of the mark.

I could say that about your opinions on British people.

[High-On-Hibs]

I could say that about your opinions on British people.

You could. But I don't think you'd really believe it yourself.

Unionists like to play the victim card, when they know full well they're being the aggressors. It's all very sevco.

[Slavers]

You could. But I don't think you'd really believe it yourself.

Unionists like to play the victim card, when they know full well they're being the aggressors. It's all very sevco.

I only need to look at his previous posts to see how he views British people.

I don't know why you need to bring sevco into this. But I suppose that's what's all about for some pick a side and start waving your flag.

[Bristolhibby]

I was wondering this today too.

The £ that Scotland brings to the party. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

If we were such the burden Scotlandnis being portrayed then the UK would have folded years ago.

We are valuable to the UK.

J

[CathroMustStay]

1979-2030 (very likely) = tories will have ruled Scotland for 38/51 years without a mandate.

HOW CAN YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT MAINTAINING THAT DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT, EVEN IF YOU ARE A RIGHT LEANING VOTER?!?

**** the tories. **** Hard Brexit. **** the laughably called 'United Kingdom'.

#VoteYes

[JeMeSouviens]

I was wondering this today too.

Prestige mainly. Manifest in 2 ways:

- perceived loss of face due to loss of territory
- difficulty of rehoming trident might make it difficult to remain a nuclear power. This is **** all to do with deterrent and everything to do with international willy waving, seat on the security council etc.

[JeMeSouviens]

I only need to look at his previous posts to see how he views British people.

I don't know why you need to bring sevco into this. But I suppose that's what's all about for some pick a side and start waving your flag.

To be fair, it is Sevco's favourite flag. :wink:

[Slavers]

To be fair, it is Sevco's favourite flag. :wink:

Ha ha The rangers are a curse to the British cause!

[danhibees1875]

1979-2030 (very likely) = tories will have ruled Scotland for 38/51 years without a mandate.

HOW CAN YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT MAINTAINING THAT DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT, EVEN IF YOU ARE A RIGHT LEANING VOTER?!?

**** the tories. **** Hard Brexit. **** the laughably called 'United Kingdom'.

#VoteYes


Statistics up to 2030 is something that I'm yet to see any no sympathisers produce anyway. :agree:

You raise an interesting point though. I'm sure last time there was statistics from post-ww2 to 2014 showing how often Scotland had voted in line with the party in charge. It was quite a significant % of the years.

[McD]

You could. But I don't think you'd really believe it yourself.

Unionists like to play the victim card, when they know full well they're being the aggressors. It's all very sevco.


glad to see we're not repeating the same steps as the last time in simply insulting the other side.


why do people believe that by belittling and insulting people who have a different view, the other person will suddenly see the error of their ways and change their position completely?

imagine if BOTH sides could talk sensibly and discuss things - and I do mean both.

[Jack]

Interesting anti Scots, anti English chat.

Interesting that while the Scots are Jocks, sweaty socks to the English the Scots derogatory term for the English is ... err .... well there isn't an equivalent!

[Hibrandenburg]

I only need to look at his previous posts to see how he views British people.

I don't know why you need to bring sevco into this. But I suppose that's what's all about for some pick a side and start waving your flag.

Go on then, how do I view British people? :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

Popcorn at the ready.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Mainly a seething resentment. All fine and dandy until a certain alcohol blood levels has been reached then the "do you know what's wrong with you jocks" speeches start. To be fair we've probably got the same amount of that particular type of walloper but you are suggesting otherwise.

I think this says more about the company you kept at the time than it does about anything else. It's hardly a census is it?

[Mr Grieves]

im reading that if we leave the union we are out of nato as well as the EU

https://youtu.be/eQzm0FXXerM

Elmar Brok MEP on why it would be "easy" for Scotland to join the EU

[Hibrandenburg]

I think this says more about the company you kept at the time than it does about anything else. It's hardly a census is it?

No it's not a census but it was in retort to your original subjective opinion so you can hardly complain about it. It's also rather odd that you seem to know what kind of company I kept :faf:

[Smartie]

I don't really hear anti-English sentiment any more although I used to years ago and I've often wondered why I don't hear it any more.

I have mainly put it down to the fact that I've grown up and don't spend as much time in a school playground as I did when I was a kid. I think I left the anti-Englishness behind there, along with most people.

It might be down to the world and Scots moving on since the 1980s.

It might be down to the fact that I no longer live in a backward Scottish hick town.

It's probably a combination of all of the above.

Does any Scot really have any problem with English people? Seriously?

What a piece of nonsense if so.

[The Green Goblin]

We are an equal partner, not a subject colony. Of course the irony is that in trying to establish our own colonies in competition with England and Spain we went bankrupt, hence the need for union. But do you think Scotland would have rolled over in the 50s and 60s had the Darien scheme been a success? Go on and humour me. I know all snowflakes and SJW's think independence is some political panacea worth paying any economic price for, just a shame any forensic examination quickly unravels it.


Christ, any chance we can keep this patter off hibs.net.


What are snowflakes and Sjws?


Snowflake is a pretty distasteful insult used by the American right to dismiss anybody who opposes their world view. No need for it here.


An article on the BBC website today defines "snowflake" thus:

The term has become a popular insult by Donald Trump supporters and far-right campaigners who claim their liberal opponents avoid dissenting ideas and opinions

[Colr]

I was wondering this today too.

We help raise the average IQ of the UK

[snooky]

We help raise the average IQ of the UK

:greengrin

[Slavers]

Go on then, how do I view British people? :rolleyes:

Well go back and read your own posts they are usually very negative to anything British related.

[snooky]

I'd imagine that Ruth Davidson is tonight doing a wee jig. Her relentless obsession of talking about Independence rather than Tory policy is back on the front page.

:hmmm:

[Slavers]

An article on the BBC website today defines "snowflake" thus:

The term has become a popular insult by Donald Trump supporters and far-right campaigners who claim their liberal opponents avoid dissenting ideas and opinions

YouTube has lots of videos of snowflakes and social justice warriors and they are very funny.

[Hibrandenburg]

Well go back and read your own posts they are usually very negative to anything British related.

You're moving the goalposts now, first you accused me of hating the British people now it's anything British! You need to make up your mind and add some subsidence to your accusations or people might start thinking you're a troll.

[Slavers]

You're moving the goalposts now, first you accused me of hating the British people now it's anything British! You need to make up your mind and add some subsidence to your accusations or people might start thinking you're a troll.

Think what you want its just an observation on what I have read on your posts. Of the top of the head you posted along the lines of what is it about Brits and the way people dress. Concerning some racist who objected to a Muslim head scarf.

You saying what is it with Brits suggests you think a majority of British people think like that. Something along those lines.

Europe today bans the head scarf at work but not in the UK.

[snooky]

Article on the Guardian website....
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/01/scotland-vote-yes-scottish-independence?CMP=share_btn_fb
Key paragraph:
"I really want Scotland to go for it. Those of us who live in the north of England look south and see the same thing. An England effectively shrunk to the Greater London area. It exists within the invisible forcefield of the M25, and these days is a cruel and surreal place. Much of it is owned and managed remotely by billionaires on the other side of the planet. The greed of absentee landlords crushing the life out of it. Centrifugal "market forces" flinging the poor out. Meanwhile, capitalism's own ruthless geology creates archipelagos of conspicuous wealth for the world's idle rich."

[Hibrandenburg]

Think you want its just an observation on what I have read on your posts. Of the top of the head you posted along the lines of what is it about Brits and they way people dress. Concerning some racist who objected to a Muslim head scarf.

You saying what is it with Brits suggests you think a majority of British people think like that. Something along those lines.

Europe today bans the head scarf at work but not in the UK.

:faf: So to prove you're point you troll through my profile to find something that remotely backs up your accusation of me hating British people and come up with me being critical of how Brits are snobs when it comes to dress sense. :faf:

You'll have to do better than that. You're amusing I'll give you that.

[ronaldo7]

To lighten the mood, which boat would you be in?

18219

[Alex Trager]

To lighten the mood, which boat would you be in?

18219

The big bit green land?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Article on the Guardian website....
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/01/scotland-vote-yes-scottish-independence?CMP=share_btn_fb
Key paragraph:
"I really want Scotland to go for it. Those of us who live in the north of England look south and see the same thing. An England effectively shrunk to the Greater London area. It exists within the invisible forcefield of the M25, and these days is a cruel and surreal place. Much of it is owned and managed remotely by billionaires on the other side of the planet. The greed of absentee landlords crushing the life out of it. Centrifugal "market forces" flinging the poor out. Meanwhile, capitalism's own ruthless geology creates archipelagos of conspicuous wealth for the world's idle rich."


i enjoy reading/seeing a bit of balance, unfortunately i watched sky news for approx 4 hours yesterday, they constantly played videos of...


1. theresa may telling our first minister(from behind a TV camera) to stop playing games with politics

2. Mcfaceache Farage sick and tired of hearing about independence for scotland, and said the yes vote will be 'massively rejected' by the people of scotland so that's that then :(

3. a pub in the scottish borders with the manager and 3 customers all saying they don't want independence, unfortunately they didn't want to bother searching for another 3 voters with differing views, and if they did they certainly didn't want that shown on TV, i stopped watching BBC news at the last referendum due to a disgusting bias for the unionist parties, already looking like i may just have to stop/put up with viewing sky's chosen interviewees, freakin sickening

[ronaldo7]

The big bit green land?

The Peoples Republic of Leith, which has now Fallen.:wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Nice to see there is reasoned debate in the major broadsheets

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/nicola-sturgeon-liar-traitor-head/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

[ronaldo7]

Nice to see there is reasoned debate in the major broadsheets

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/nicola-sturgeon-liar-traitor-head/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

This was the headline up until approx. 8pm last night. They changed it after a storm of protests from politicians.

18220

[Hibernia&Alba]

This was the headline up until approx. 8pm last night. They changed it after a storm of protests from politicians.

18220

What a crass thing to say, particularly after an MP was murdered not long ago.

[CallumLaidlaw]

What a crass thing to say, particularly after an MP was murdered not long ago.

And that Pearson woman is now saying to anyone on twitter that is having a go at her for the headline that she's going to sue them for libel as she didn't write the headline.

[CallumLaidlaw]

I see the Edinburgh South Branch of the Labour party have today announced their position on Independence and have switched from No to Yes.

[JeMeSouviens]

I see the Edinburgh South Branch of the Labour party have today announced their position on Independence and have switched from No to Yes.

Sadly (in both ways) this is fake news.

[ronaldo7]

And that Pearson woman is now saying to anyone on twitter that is having a go at her for the headline that she's going to sue them for libel as she didn't write the headline.

Someone wrote it. The article has her name on it. If only the courts had any test cases in this field eh.:wink:

[hibs0666]

I see the Edinburgh South Branch of the Labour party have today announced their position on Independence and have switched from No to Yes.

That is totally false.

[CallumLaidlaw]

That is totally false.

Yeah, seen that now. Apologies :hide:

[pacoluna]

That is totally false.

Labour opposing an austerity driven xenophobic UK Parliament and backing independence? Of course it's a joke.

[hibs0666]

Labour opposing an austerity driven xenophobic UK Parliament and backing independence? Of course it's a joke.

SNP prioritising constitutional arrangements over Scottish economic growth, NHS transformation and falling educational performance? Exactly what I would expect from an inward-looking, petty, single issue party.

[Jack]

SNP prioritising constitutional arrangements over Scottish economic growth, NHS transformation and falling educational performance? Exactly what I would expect from an inward-looking, petty, single issue party.

TBH I've never really seen the sense in posts like this, no offense intended.

The SNP (any party or coalition) as the party in power decide on the policies and then basically hand them over to an army of civil servants who are then responsible for seeing these policies put into practice. Yeah a small number of politicians are involved in the day to day stuff but it's not like even those folk wouldn't have time for other stuff, including constituents.

[High-On-Hibs]

Not really worth posting, but i'm certain this must be JackLadd :faf:

Warning: Poor use of the English Language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=xmU6jFn0BAM

[High-On-Hibs]

SNP prioritising constitutional arrangements over Scottish economic growth, NHS transformation and falling educational performance? Exactly what I would expect from an inward-looking, petty, single issue party.

What is Scottish economic growth looking like outside the EU? Oh thats right.... we don't actually know. Because the PM of the UK has no idea what she's doing.

As for falling educational performance. As a college student I can assure you that there are plenty of people working in the field doing their damn best to ensure that it fails under the SNP.

[hibs0666]

TBH I've never really seen the sense in posts like this, no offense intended.

The SNP (any party or coalition) as the party in power decide on the policies and then basically hand them over to an army of civil servants who are then responsible for seeing these policies put into practice. Yeah a small number of politicians are involved in the day to day stuff but it's not like even those folk wouldn't have time for other stuff, including constituents.

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that SNP have one focus and that is independence. The fact that it may not be what is best for the nation is neither here nor there.

[High-On-Hibs]

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that SNP have one focus and that is independence. The fact that it may not be what is best for the nation is neither here nor there.

Surely thats one focus more than the UK government? :dunno:

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that SNP have one focus and that is independence. The fact that it may not be what is best for the region is neither here nor there.

ftfy :wink:

[hibs0666]

What is Scottish economic growth looking like outside the EU? Oh thats right.... we don't actually know. Because the PM of the UK has no idea what she's doing.

As for falling educational performance. As a college student I can assure you that there are plenty of people working in the field doing their damn best to ensure that it fails under the SNP.

Easy tiger. Let's not kid on that Scottish economic performance is grand in the EU either. I can understand nats blaming education practitioners rather than the party in power for poor educational attainment.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that SNP have one focus and that is independence. The fact that it may not be what is best for the nation is neither here nor there.

It may not be the best thing for us in North Britain, but there area lot of well educated people who see to prefer it to the alternative

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10552/top-oxford-economist-changes-mind-back-financial-benefits-scottish-independence

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/03/brexit-makes-scottish-independence-much-more-economically-attractive

Taking a few of the issues raised by the posters who are opposed to independence, some quotes from the articles


“Brexit changes everything. The economic cost to the UK of leaving the EU could be as high as a reduction of 10 per cent in average incomes by 2030. If Scotland, by becoming independent, can avoid that fate then you have a clear long term economic gain right there. But it is more than that. “If, Scotland can remain in the Single Market it could be the destination of the foreign investment that once came to the UK as a gateway into the EU. By accepting free movement, it could benefit from the immigration that has so benefited the UK public finances over the last decade. No, that is not what you read in the papers or see on the TV, but I’m talking about the real world, not the political fantasy that seems so dominant today.”




independence was the clear route to protect the funding of public services like healthcare and education.


“As the situation gets steadily worse, nothing - absolutely nothing - will be safe from continuing austerity. To be brutally honest, if the SNP loses another referendum, even the formidable Ruth Davidson will not be able to prevent Scotland being plundered by this government,” he said.

His remarks were echoed by Nicolas Macpherson, Permanent Secretary to the Treasury at the time of the last referendum. Macpherson, who received a backlash for opposing the independence proposals while a civil servant, now says independence is a “historic opportunity” to “adopt a credible economic policy”.

[High-On-Hibs]

Easy tiger. Let's not kid on that Scottish economic performance is grand in the EU either. I can understand nats blaming education practitioners rather than the party in power for poor educational attainment.

The proof is in the pudding. Holding Labour fueled strikes at every opportunity for any reason whatsoever. Giving half arsed lessons to students, or taking hour long breaks during those lessons. You learn who they are pretty quickly. :rolleyes:

[CathroMustStay]

Please sign, needs 100,000 signatures for parliamentary debate:


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168781

[Hibernia&Alba]

Not really worth posting, but i'm certain this must be JackLadd :faf:

Warning: Poor use of the English Language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=xmU6jFn0BAM

With that language, I'm assuming he's an admin on Rangers Media.

Seems You Tube have now removed it for hate speech. Definitely an admin on Rangers Media then :greengrin

[hibs0666]

The proof is in the pudding. Holding Labour fueled strikes at every opportunity for any reason whatsoever. Giving half arsed lessons to students, or taking hour long breaks during those lessons. You learn who they are pretty quickly. :rolleyes:

You sound like a raging Tory.

[Jack]

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that SNP have one focus and that is independence. The fact that it may not be what is best for the nation is neither here nor there.

My point was that while the politicians get on with politicking there's an army of civil servants putting the politicians "everyday" policies into practice.

[High-On-Hibs]

You sound like a raging Tory.

Why would this make me a raging tory? The tories delight in the failure of public services, including education. It's a "british" thing.

[hibs0666]

That doesn't stop the party of government being accountable for the success or otherwise of its policies.

For example, I know of a girl who turns 18 this year. She is a straight A student at higher level (English, maths, physics, chemistry, biology) and is on track to achieve straight A's at advanced higher level too (chemistry, biology, maths). In shirt, exactly the type of young person to fuel the Scottish economy.

Except she won't as she is unable to get a Scottish university space in her subject of choice and will instead be off to England through necessity.

I would consider that outcome to be a fundamental failure of the Scottish education system. So who is responsible the government or some civil servant?

[Bristolhibby]

That doesn't stop the party of government being accountable for the success or otherwise of its policies.

For example, I know of a girl who turns 18 this year. She is a straight A student at higher level (English, maths, physics, chemistry, biology) and is on track to achieve straight A's at advanced higher level too (chemistry, biology, maths). In shirt, exactly the type of young person to fuel the Scottish economy.

Except she won't as she is unable to get a Scottish university space in her subject of choice and will instead be off to England through necessity.

I would consider that outcome to be a fundamental failure of the Scottish education system. So who is responsible the government or some civil servant?

What subject is she doing?

[hibs0666]

What subject is she doing?

Veterinary medicine.

[JeMeSouviens]

Veterinary medicine.

Is there a shortage of vets in Scotland?

[Jack]

That doesn't stop the party of government being accountable for the success or otherwise of its policies.

For example, I know of a girl who turns 18 this year. She is a straight A student at higher level (English, maths, physics, chemistry, biology) and is on track to achieve straight A's at advanced higher level too (chemistry, biology, maths). In shirt, exactly the type of young person to fuel the Scottish economy.

Except she won't as she is unable to get a Scottish university space in her subject of choice and will instead be off to England through necessity.

I would consider that outcome to be a fundamental failure of the Scottish education system. So who is responsible the government or some civil servant?

Universities are very proud of their independent status.

From what I understand they are free to choose who studies there and where they're from.

They will of course whinge that because they don't get enough money from governments (UK and Scottish depending where they are) that they need to draw in students from countries where they can charge larger fees.

[allmodcons]

That doesn't stop the party of government being accountable for the success or otherwise of its policies.

For example, I know of a girl who turns 18 this year. She is a straight A student at higher level (English, maths, physics, chemistry, biology) and is on track to achieve straight A's at advanced higher level too (chemistry, biology, maths). In shirt, exactly the type of young person to fuel the Scottish economy.

Except she won't as she is unable to get a Scottish university space in her subject of choice and will instead be off to England through necessity.

I would consider that outcome to be a fundamental failure of the Scottish education system. So who is responsible the government or some civil servant?

If she's been knocked back by a Scottish University with those grades it tells you for sure that there is a serious number of kids leaving school with seriously good grades. Surely this is a success story not a failure. A failure would be someone with poor grades getting accepted for this course, in other words, the bar for acceptance is very high.

Anyway, who Universities vet and accept for their courses has nothing to do with the SG.

[Bristolhibby]

If she's been knocked back by a Scottish University with those grades it tells you for sure that there is a serious number of kids leaving school with seriously good grades. Surely this is a success story not a failure. A failure would be someone with poor grades getting accepted for this course, in other words, the bar for acceptance is very high.

Anyway, who Universities vet and accept for their courses has nothing to do with the SG.

Was going to say that kids going to vet school has always been over subscribed. More people than places want to be vets. Units can be very selective.

Has she thought of medicine?

J

[ronaldo7]

Good piece here by Suzanne Moore.

https://t.co/2anY1ScVHc

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that SNP have one focus and that is independence. The fact that it may not be what is best for the nation is neither here nor there.

The Scottish government have their hands tied, if they're gonna govern then their first priority must be to free themselves of the shackles.

[hibs0666]

Was going to say that kids going to vet school has always been over subscribed. More people than places want to be vets. Units can be very selective.

Has she thought of medicine?

J

Maybe I need to amplify my point a bit. If you take Edinburgh as an example its annual intake for this subject is about 120. Due to the funding model set by Scottish Government only 40 of those 120 places are available to Scottish kids. In other words, its not an issue of capacity, it is the funding model that drives very capable talent to head south with huge ambition and a heavy heart.

She has no interest whatsoever in human medicine. Her interest lies in sustainability and security of the food chain and humane animal care.

[ronaldo7]

Was going to say that kids going to vet school has always been over subscribed. More people than places want to be vets. Units can be very selective.

Has she thought of medicine?

J

Glasgow run courses too. Maybe you could pass this link onto 0666 as he told me he'd put me on ignore some months ago. :aok:

Getting onto an accredited veterinary medicine course is no walk in the park. You’ll need to have chemistry and biology (both at grade A), and the chances are you’ll have to go through a fairly competitive interview process as well (your future lecturers will want to know about what you’ve done previously and your reasons for choosing veterinary medicine, so you should make sure you have some work experience to talk about). Exact grade requirements are high, ranging from AAB at the University of Nottingham to A*AA at Cambridge.

https://www.whatuni.com/advice/subject-guides/veterinary-medicine-degree-guide/49105/

[Jack]

Maybe I need to amplify my point a bit. If you take Edinburgh as an example its annual intake for this subject is about 120. Due to the funding model set by Scottish Government only 40 of those 120 places are available to Scottish kids. In other words, its not an issue of capacity, it is the funding model that drives very capable talent to head south with huge ambition and a heavy heart.

She has no interest whatsoever in human medicine. Her interest lies in sustainability and security of the food chain and humane animal care.

I'm not entirely certain it's the Scottish Government that would set the 40 figure.

They will give the university money in various guises but management at that level will be a decision for the university.

As I said I'm not entirely sure but I will probably be meeting a fairly senior figure from the Chancellor's office for beers tonight if not the weekend and if I remember I'll ask him and report back.

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe I need to amplify my point a bit. If you take Edinburgh as an example its annual intake for this subject is about 120. Due to the funding model set by Scottish Government only 40 of those 120 places are available to Scottish kids. In other words, its not an issue of capacity, it is the funding model that drives very capable talent to head south with huge ambition and a heavy heart.

She has no interest whatsoever in human medicine. Her interest lies in sustainability and security of the food chain and humane animal care.


I'm not entirely certain it's the Scottish Government that would set the 40 figure.

They will give the university money in various guises but management at that level will be a decision for the university.

As I said I'm not entirely sure but I will probably be meeting a fairly senior figure from the Chancellor's office for beers tonight if not the weekend and if I remember I'll ask him and report back.

A quick check finds the requirements and places available

http://www.ed.ac.uk/medicine-vet-medicine/undergraduate/medicine/applying/how-to-apply/requirements


In 2014 we received approximately 2,150 applications for 190 Home/EU places

1 place for every 14 applicants from Scotland sounds a decent amount for such an oversubscribed course to me

http://www.ed.ac.uk/vet/studying/admissionspolicy

[JeMeSouviens]

Maybe I need to amplify my point a bit. If you take Edinburgh as an example its annual intake for this subject is about 120. Due to the funding model set by Scottish Government only 40 of those 120 places are available to Scottish kids. In other words, its not an issue of capacity, it is the funding model that drives very capable talent to head south with huge ambition and a heavy heart.

She has no interest whatsoever in human medicine. Her interest lies in sustainability and security of the food chain and humane animal care.

To repeat my question: is Scotland short of vets? If we are producing all the vets we need within the present funding model, then it's about right, surely?

[hibs0666]

To repeat my question: is Scotland short of vets? If we are producing all the vets we need within the present funding model, then it's about right, surely?

Your question is the wrong one. Like all degrees, students go on to pursue a range of careers not related to their undergraduate qualification. For example I know an equine vet who is now a supply chain transformation expert. Go figure.

The question you should be asking is do we have a deficit in STEM undergraduates? Bloody right we do, and those skills will become increasingly valuable in an increasingly data-centric future. We simply cannot afford as an economy to let the brightest of the bright head off to England to be trained, never to return. In all likelihood they will be attracted by the broader base of opportunity that is available down there.

In saying that I am delighted that, as part of the UK, she has the opportunity to pursue her dream. Clearly, that would not be far more difficult for her were wee Scotland outside of the UK.

[JeMeSouviens]

Your question is the wrong one. Like all degrees, students go on to pursue a range of careers not related to their undergraduate qualification. For example I know an equine vet who is now a supply chain transformation expert. Go figure.

The question you should be asking is do we have a deficit in STEM undergraduates? Bloody right we do, and those skills will become increasingly valuable in an increasingly data-centric future. We simply cannot afford as an economy to let the brightest of the bright head off to England to be trained, never to return. In all likelihood they will be attracted by the broader base of opportunity that is available down there.

In saying that I am delighted that, as part of the UK, she has the opportunity to pursue her dream. Clearly, that would not be far more difficult for her were wee Scotland outside of the UK.

For such a vocational qualification as veterinary medicine I would think it's most unlikely a new grad would jump straight into an alternative career? If there are more grads than vet opportunities, they are likely to head off to pursue a job outwith Scotland.

However, STEM and in particular the data-centric bits are (as you know) something I'm much better qualified to pontificate on. :wink: Actually the picture is much improved in this regard, Edinburgh has a blossoming tech sector and opportunities are growing. In the last few years, we've had no trouble recruiting great graduates in Edinburgh (a couple of the best actually from other EU countries and currently crapping it about their future prospects ... and planning to vote Yes :wink:). Meanwhile, another office in my org located in the Home Counties has found it a real struggle. The brightest and best down there tend to head into finance rather than sticking with engineering.

There is masses more to do here, but we are at least on an upward spiral heading in the right direction.

[hibs0666]

For such a vocational qualification as veterinary medicine I would think it's most unlikely a new grad would jump straight into an alternative career? If there are more grads than vet opportunities, they are likely to head off to pursue a job outwith Scotland.

However, STEM and in particular the data-centric bits are (as you know) something I'm much better qualified to pontificate on. :wink: Actually the picture is much improved in this regard, Edinburgh has a blossoming tech sector and opportunities are growing. In the last few years, we've had no trouble recruiting great graduates in Edinburgh (a couple of the best actually from other EU countries and currently crapping it about their future prospects ... and planning to vote Yes :wink:). Meanwhile, another office in my org located in the Home Counties has found it a real struggle. The brightest and best down there tend to head into finance rather than sticking with engineering.

There is masses more to do here, but we are at least on an upward spiral heading in the right direction.

You're think a bit too narrowly if you assume vet medicine qualification = fixing Fido's eye infection. The fundamental skill taught to vets is the ability to diagnose conditions in any species of animal. That skill transfers into areas such as the human food chain security, drug discovery etc. Not forgetting supply chain transformation.

As regards data, we should have a chat about this at some point. There are some very interesting proposals doing the rounds at the moment which should float your boat.

[Colr]

That doesn't stop the party of government being accountable for the success or otherwise of its policies.

For example, I know of a girl who turns 18 this year. She is a straight A student at higher level (English, maths, physics, chemistry, biology) and is on track to achieve straight A's at advanced higher level too (chemistry, biology, maths). In shirt, exactly the type of young person to fuel the Scottish economy.

Except she won't as she is unable to get a Scottish university space in her subject of choice and will instead be off to England through necessity.

I would consider that outcome to be a fundamental failure of the Scottish education system. So who is responsible the government or some civil servant?

An increasing number of people look to study abroad these days.

[danhibees1875]

Looks like we're being told not now by Ms. May.

Interesting to see how that goes down...

[Bristolhibby]

Looks like we're being told not now by Ms. May.

Interesting to see how that goes down...

Badly in Scotland I'd assume.

I'm in Bristol and I'm raging about it. Scotland has to sit back on concentrate on delivering something that it never wanted in the first place (Brexit). Or has any influence in affecting (soft free market Brexit or Hard poison the wells Brexit).

Aye right May.

J

[High-On-Hibs]

Unelected UK leader from an election rigging party tells elected Scottish leader that she doesn't have the permission to hold a referendum which she has a mandate for.

Don't you just love UK democracy? :rolleyes:

[Peevemor]

Badly in Scotland I'd assume.

J

May spoke about division? I can see things turning pretty nasty now.

[hibs0666]

The Scottish government have their hands tied, if they're gonna govern then their first priority must be to free themselves of the shackles.

Nope. Education is a devolved matter.

[High-On-Hibs]

Nope. Education is a devolved matter.

Here's an idea. Devolve all revenue generated in Scotland to Scotland. Then you'll actually have a point to make.

[hibs0666]

Here's an idea. Devolve all revenue generated in Scotland to Scotland. Then you'll actually have a point to make.

Point is made fine. Education is devolved - no excuses.

[hibs0666]

Unelected UK leader from an election rigging party tells elected Scottish leader that she doesn't have the permission to hold a referendum which she has a mandate for.

Don't you just love UK democracy? :rolleyes:

The referendum was lost remember?

[High-On-Hibs]

Point is made fine. Education is devolved - no excuses.

Education is devolved aye? So education being cut in England, should have absolutely no effect on the budget available for education in Scotland then?


The referendum was lost remember?

Lost on a lie and your ilk know it.

[Peevemor]

The referendum was lost remember?

The criteria were different though. Remember?

[hibs0666]

The criteria were different though. Remember?

The criteria for what?

[Peevemor]

The criteria for what?

You know fine. Those who voted no in 2014 in fear of Scotland being excluded from the EU will be having second thoughts.

18227

[High-On-Hibs]

The criteria were different though. Remember?

It was a pyrrhic victory. He know's it, his beloved unelected tory PM knows it , all the unionists/British Nationalists know it. They are running scared and think that putting a block on a Scottish mandate is going to put us back in the box, where unionists think we belong.

[hibs0666]

Education is devolved aye? So education being cut in England, should have absolutely no effect on the budget available for education in Scotland then?


Raise taxes then.



Lost on a lie and your ilk know it.

Nah, lost on fantasy economics. There is no bad bogeyman to blame I'm afraid.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Unelected UK leader from an election rigging party tells elected Scottish leader that she doesn't have the permission to hold a referendum which she has a mandate for.

Don't you just love UK democracy? :rolleyes:

She is elected though. Was elected to serve her constituency as an MP and then voted leader of the governing party by members of that party. We don't vote for a Prime Minister in the UK, we vote for constituency MPs.

[hibs0666]

You know fine. Those who voted no in 2014 in fear of Scotland being excluded from the EU will be having second thoughts.

18227

So will those that voted no on the basis that oil would make Scotland rich, rich , rich. Remember that criteria?

[Slavers]

Unelected UK leader from an election rigging party tells elected Scottish leader that she doesn't have the permission to hold a referendum which she has a mandate for.

Don't you just love UK democracy? :rolleyes:

No Theresa has said not I the time window that Nicola demanded. After Brexit has happened and we know what we are voting on then the referendum will be allowed to happen.

This is just common sense and only a blinkered nationalist would argue otherwise.

[High-On-Hibs]

Raise taxes then.

Why should we raise taxes to make up for a short fall in what we recieved back from the treasury in relation to our generated revenue? :confused:


Nah, lost on fantasy economics. There is no bad bogeyman to blame I'm afraid.

Nothing like the fantasy economics we're getting from brexiters. 350 million pound more a week for the NHS? Where is it then?


She is elected though. Was elected to serve her constituency as an MP and then voted leader of the governing party by members of that party. We don't vote for a Prime Minister in the UK, we vote for constituency MPs.

Her party has no mandate in Scotland, she has no mandate in Scotland. You can try and dress it up any way you like, but the reality is, she isn't liked or supported up here and has no moral right to block a democratic mandate from the Scottish electorate.

[High-On-Hibs]

No Theresa has said not I the time window that Nicola demanded. After Brexit has happened and we know what we are voting on then the referendum will be allowed to happen.

This is just common sense and only a blinkered nationalist would argue otherwise.

No, she's not wanting another referendum during brexit negotiations, because she wants to be able to use Scottish assets as a bargaining chip, while allowing us to have zero say on the matter.

Only a blinkered unionist would argue otherwise.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Why should we raise taxes to make up for a short fall in what we recieved back from the treasury in relation to our generated revenue? :confused:



Nothing like the fantasy economics we're getting from brexiters. 350 million pound more a week for the NHS? Where is it then?



Her party has no mandate in Scotland, she has no mandate in Scotland. You can try and dress it up any way you like, but the reality is, she isn't liked or supported up here and has no moral right to block a democratic mandate from the Scottish electorate.

I'm pro-Indy, and agree that she isn't well liked or supported up here. I can't stand her or the Tory party, and I hate that a party with one Scottish MP is dictating to Scotland. Unfortunately, whilst we are still in the UK the UK government does have a mandate to govern us.

[hibs0666]

It was a pyrrhic victory. He know's it, his beloved unelected tory PM knows it , all the unionists/British Nationalists know it. They are running scared and think that putting a block on a Scottish mandate is going to put us back in the box, where unionists think we belong.

You've taken this knock-back quite badly I see.

It was no victory, there were only losers from the last referendum and Scotland is a worse place for having had it. Too many people just can't bear having been in the minority and it would have been the same the other way round.

BTW May is elected to parliament. Neither UK or Scotland run elections for the top job.

[stantonhibby]

You know fine. Those who voted no in 2014 in fear of Scotland being excluded from the EU will be having second thoughts.

18227


The vast majority of the no voters I know did so because they didn't think the SNP' s economic argument stacked​ up.....EU never really came into it.

[Slavers]

No, she's not wanting another referendum during brexit negotiations, because she wants to be able to use Scottish assets as a bargaining chip, while allowing us to have zero say on the matter.

Only a blinkered unionist would argue otherwise.

Nicola Sturgeon is playing politics with her demands. Thankfully the majority of Scots see this and only people like you are upset about it. I can live with that and sure Theressa May can too. You won't see Scotland up in arms about this decision like you are, most will be quite glad of it.

[Bristolhibby]

No Theresa has said not I the time window that Nicola demanded. After Brexit has happened and we know what we are voting on then the referendum will be allowed to happen.

This is just common sense and only a blinkered nationalist would argue otherwise.

Quite frankly the Brexit deal will be known quite soon after Article 50.

David Davis leading the negotiations and U.K. HARD BREXIT stance is going to ensure there's a cant of a deal for the U.K.

The mechanisms and governance of Indy2 needs to be in place to act quickly. There's a chance that Scotland could strike a deal to stay in as rUK leaves. Scotland should not lose that opportunity because May says so.

J

[Slavers]

Quite frankly the Brexit deal will be known quite soon after Article 50.

David Davis leading the negotiations and U.K. HARD BREXIT stance is going to ensure there's a cant of a deal for the U.K.

The mechanisms and governance of Indy2 needs to be in place to act quickly. There's a chance that Scotland could strike a deal to stay in as rUK leaves. Scotland should not lose that opportunity because May says so.

J

Show me proof Scotland can stay in whilst the UK leaves? It's quite wrong of Nicola Sturgeon to demand and referendum at this time and she knows it. Anything to whip up us and them to try and get more people to back independence.

[Peevemor]

So will those that voted no on the basis that oil would make Scotland rich, rich , rich. Remember that criteria?
I've no idea, although they may understand that prices constantly fluctuate.

[Moulin Yarns]

You know fine. Those who voted no in 2014 in fear of Scotland being excluded from the EU will be having second thoughts.

18227

That is one damning photograph

[Slavers]

That is one damning photograph

Why?

[Slavers]

I've no idea, although they may understand that prices constantly fluctuate.

Fluctuate is a little bit of an understatement in regards to the drop in oil prices is it not?

[Bristolhibby]

Show me proof Scotland can stay in whilst the UK leaves? It's quite wrong of Nicola Sturgeon to demand and referendum at this time and she knows it. Anything to whip up us and them to try and get more people to back independence.

There is no proof and I said as much.

Equally with Brexit there is no precedence. Nobody has left the EU before. We are in uncharted territory and saying can't and won't is just as daft as saying definitely will.

So there no way to say that Scotland couldn't negotiate quickly the opportunity to stay in as rUK leaves.

Simply put, Scotland is leaving the EU anyway. Do noting and that will happen.

J

[Hibernia&Alba]

The vast majority of the no voters I know did so because they didn't think the SNP' s economic argument stacked​ up.....EU never really came into it.

The EU was a big factor for many, myself included. We were told that staying within the UK was the only way to ensure continued EU membership. As for economics, almost a decade of austerity has failed the country, particularly the less well off, who have carried the greater burden. The Scottish and English view of economic policy are divergent, with Tory dominated England preferring the neoliberalism of Thatcherism and Reaganomics, but Scotland being more social democratic. It's becoming increasingly hard to reconcile two such different visions.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why?

The opposite of that is

Britain is weaker out of Europe, And that is where we are heading

[magpie1892]

Equally with Brexit there is no precedence. Nobody has left the EU before. We are in uncharted territory and saying can't and won't is just as daft as saying definitely will.

So there no way to say that Scotland couldn't negotiate quickly the opportunity to stay in as rUK leaves.



...and by your own argument, there is no way to say Scotland could negotiate quickly the opportunity to stay in the EU. You say so in the previous sentence.

[Hibernia&Alba]

...and by your own argument, there is no way to say Scotland could negotiate quickly the opportunity to stay in the EU. You say so in the previous sentence.

That's a potentially huge problem too. All in all it's a mess either way and will require some fixing in the coming years. However, independence seems the only hope of staying in/returning to the EU, as, once the UK leaves, there will be no going back.

[Peevemor]

Fluctuate is a little bit of an understatement in regards to the drop in oil prices is it not?

Only if you don't understand the meaning of the word.

[ACLeith]

In 2014 under YES vote we were told in effect that England would automatically take over the old U.K. membership. So we can equally take over the same membership this time round?

Or does that not work because Scotland does not equal the UK whereas England does?

Or am I just being naive/stupid/simplistic- delete any that don't apply!

[Slavers]

In 2014 under YES vote we were told in effect that England would automatically take over the old U.K. membership. So we can equally take over the same membership this time round?

Or does that not work because Scotland does not equal the UK whereas England does?

Or am I just being naive/stupid/simplistic- delete any that don't apply!

I think it would be that England remained part of the UK and it would still be a member. Scotland would not be part of the UK and would not have that membership available.

[Slavers]

Only if you don't understand the meaning of the word.

Well I do but its plain to see for anyone with half a brain cell that the oil price crash was down to more than just price fluctuation?

Would you agree?

[ACLeith]

I think it would be that England remained part of the UK and it would still be a member. Scotland would not be part of the UK and would not have that membership available.

But the UK ceases to exist surely if one of the 2 member states leaves?

[Moulin Yarns]

But the UK ceases to exist surely if one of the 2 member states leaves?

Northern Ireland?

[Slavers]

But the UK ceases to exist surely if one of the 2 member states leaves?

What about Wales & Nothern Ireland, do they not count?

[JeMeSouviens]

In 2014 under YES vote we were told in effect that England would automatically take over the old U.K. membership. So we can equally take over the same membership this time round?

Or does that not work because Scotland does not equal the UK whereas England does?

Or am I just being naive/stupid/simplistic- delete any that don't apply!

rUK would demand to be seen as the "successor state" due to relative size and that we were the ones that left, so they would inherit the various UK memberships. I don't think it's completely impossible for the EU to allow Scotland to continue under the UK membership* but in practice it's far more likely we'll be given some kind of associate or transitional status (possibly EEA membership) inside the single market and then have our application as a new state approved. EU sources (eg. Chair of EU foreign affairs committee) are already saying this won't be a problem.


* they do tend to make up the rules as it suits, eg. admission of former East Germany on the nod.

[ACLeith]

Northern Ireland?

Point taken.

[makaveli1875]

May says there wont be a referendum before brexit is concluded .

Nicola Sturgeon is blasting off on twitter about it , very Donald Trump of her

[Slavers]

May says there wont be a referendum before brexit is concluded .

Nicola Sturgeon is blasting off on twitter about it , very Donald Trump of her

She is one very angry and bitter person if she does not get her own way.

[Peevemor]

Well I do but its plain to see for anyone with half a brain cell that the oil price crash was down to more than just price fluctuation?

Would you agree?

I'd suggest that someone with half a brain cell would know that a price crash is invariably down to something other than "price".

[ronaldo7]

May says there wont be a referendum before brexit is concluded .

Nicola Sturgeon is blasting off on twitter about it , very Donald Trump of her

I've just read her tweets, she really isn't, or if that's your basis on someone blasting off, you've had a very sheltered life.

[Slavers]

I'd suggest that someone with half a brain cell would know that a price crash is invariably down to something other than "price".

Well over supply and the world economy. So how did you conclude that the price drop was just price fluxes? If so would it not be heading back to its original value?

[JeMeSouviens]

She is one very angry and bitter person if she does not get her own way.

Tweets in full - in what way are they angry or bitter (or unclear or inaccurate come to that)? Compared to endlessly repeating the almost meaningless "now is not the time"* to every question, I'd say NS' use of twitter is an exemplar of political communication!

* or "Brexit means Brexit", May clearly has a strategy of taking the meaningless soundbite to the next level.




@NicolaSturgeon 1h1 hour ago

.@scotgov is not proposing #scotref now...but when the terms of Brexit clear and before it is too late to choose an alternative path. 1/4


@NicolaSturgeon 1h1 hour ago

2/4 a section 30 order must be discussed and agreed now to enable that timescale.


@NicolaSturgeon 1h1 hour ago

3/3 If the Tories refuse to do so, they would effectively be blocking Scotland's right to choose when the Brexit terms clear...


@NicolaSturgeon 1h1 hour ago

4/4 this would be undemocratic given @scotgov clear mandate and also proof positive that the Tories fear the verdict of the Scottish people.


@NicolaSturgeon 53m53 minutes ago

One last point - if PM thinks we won't know terms of Brexit by autumn next year, she must think her own timetable will fail.

[Slavers]

Tweets in full - in what way are they angry or bitter (or unclear or inaccurate come to that)? Compared to endlessly repeating the almost meaningless "now is not the time"* to every question, I'd say NS' use of twitter is an exemplar of political communication!

* or "Brexit means Brexit", May clearly has a strategy of taking the meaningless soundbite to the next level.

If Nicola wants to Scotland to support her new drive for independence she would be best served to let Brexit take it course and give it some breathing space or she will continue to be viewed as an opportunist.

[JeMeSouviens]

If Nicola wants to Scotland to support her new drive for independence she would be best served to let Brexit take it course and give it some breathing space or she will continue to be viewed as an opportunist.

I asked in what way they were bitter and angry? Not whether she's an opportunist (imo all politicians are either opportunists or in the wrong job anyway). Your answer please?

[northstandhibby]

Definitely not a tory and I'm all in favor of the EU however its politically a master stroke by May. There is no appetite for indy ref 2 except for mainly SNP supporters and by outlining a valid reason for waiting until after EU negotiations to discuss another possible indy vote there is every possibility the Scottish folk will turn against Nicola as she will seem obsessed with the issue. Its a win win for May and I speak as an EU supporter. Its political maneuvering of a skillful type I'm afraid.

glory glory

[JeMeSouviens]

Definitely not a tory and I'm all in favor of the EU however its politically a master stroke by May. There is no appetite for indy ref 2 except for mainly SNP supporters and by outlining a valid reason for waiting until after EU negotiations to discuss another possible indy vote there is every possibility the Scottish folk will turn against Nicola as she will seem obsessed with the issue. Its a win win for May and I speak as an EU supporter. Its political maneuvering of a skillful type I'm afraid.

glory glory

This guy begs to differ:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/03/16/may-just-handed-nicola-sturgeon-the-greatest-gift

[Slavers]

I asked in what way they were bitter and angry? Not whether she's an opportunist (imo all politicians are either opportunists or in the wrong job anyway). Your answer please?

She is bitter an angry person, Theresa is well within her rights to delay indyref2 until after Brexit has been concluded, Nicola's refusal to accept this is a bitter and angry reaction.

[northstandhibby]

This guy begs to differ:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/03/16/may-just-handed-nicola-sturgeon-the-greatest-gift

Ordinary foik won't ever read bloggers like him. Most ordinary folk aren't keen on another indy ref 2 being honest and with May not out-rightly blocking it most ordinary folk won't care.

glory glory

[grunt]

Theresa is well within her rights to delay indyref2 until after Brexit has been concludedHow do you arrive at this conclusion?

[grunt]

Most ordinary folk aren't keen on another indy ref 2 being honest Out of interest, how do you, or anyone else for that matter, know what "most ordinary folk" want? Surely the referendum will tell us what "most ordinary folk" want?

[JeMeSouviens]

She is bitter an angry person, Theresa is well within her rights to delay indyref2 until after Brexit has been concluded, Nicola's refusal to accept this is a bitter and angry reaction.

Call me picky, but I have to say that I'd be more persuaded if her reaction showed any sign of bitterness or anger.

[allmodcons]

She is bitter an angry person, Theresa is well within her rights to delay indyref2 until after Brexit has been concluded, Nicola's refusal to accept this is a bitter and angry reaction.

Quality response :rolleyes:

Question: In what way were they bitter and angry?

Answer: She is a bitter and angry person.

[Slavers]

Call me picky, but I have to say that I'd be more persuaded if her reaction showed any sign of bitterness or anger.

Fair enough probably if she spoke the words that angry tone she constantly uses would make my point more clear.

[hibs0666]

Out of interest, how do you, or anyone else for that matter, know what "most ordinary folk" want? Surely the referendum will tell us what "most ordinary folk" want?

The referendum has already told us that.

[Slavers]

How do you arrive at this conclusion?

With Theresa being PM of the UK. The UK is dealing with brexit and should not have to deal with an scottish referendum at the same time. Coupled with the fact we have just had a indyref recently then she is within her right as PM of UK to deal with brexit first then indyref 2.

[northstandhibby]

Out of interest, how do you, or anyone else for that matter, know what "most ordinary folk" want? Surely the referendum will tell us what "most ordinary folk" want?

I work and live among ordinary folk and listen to whats being said. I'm also a keen observer of politics and have been for many many years and like most folk who follow politics I have a sense of which way the political winds are blowing. There's no point attacking folk for giving observed opinions as no matter what you state to me it won't change anything. I myself was absolutely gutted to hear the brexit result but the truth of the matter is I can't change it so there was no point attacking the brexiteers on here and all I did was to try and debate it with them in a respectful manner.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

With Theresa being PM of the UK. The UK is dealing with brexit and should not have to deal with an scottish referendum at the same time. Coupled with the fact we have just had a indyref recently then she is within her right as PM of UK to deal with brexit first then indyref 2.

She can multi-task FFS.

For clarification, this is what NS is saying:-

Scottish Government is not proposing #ScotRef now, but when the terms of Brexit clear and before it is too late to choose an alternative path. A Section 30 order must be discussed and agreed now to enable that timescale.
If the Tories refuse to do so, they would effectively be blocking Scotland's right to choose, when the Brexit terms clear. This would be undemocratic given the Scottish Government's clear mandate and also proof positive that the Tories fear the verdict of the Scottish people.

In other words, it's not "at the same time" as you are suggesting.

[Bristolhibby]

The referendum has already told us that.

Sigh - Material change in circumstances combined with Pro Indy MSP's having a majority in Holyrood as elected on the last Scottish Parliament elections.

J

[allmodcons]

She can multi-task FFS.

For clarification, this is what NS is saying:-

Scottish Government is not proposing #ScotRef now, but when the terms of Brexit clear and before it is too late to choose an alternative path. A Section 30 order must be discussed and agreed now to enable that timescale.
If the Tories refuse to do so, they would effectively be blocking Scotland's right to choose, when the Brexit terms clear. This would be undemocratic given the Scottish Government's clear mandate and also proof positive that the Tories fear the verdict of the Scottish people.

In other words, it's not "at the same time" as you are suggesting.

Not sure she can CWG. Can't even draw up a budget with her Chancellor and stick with it for a week.

[Geo_1875]

Fair enough probably if she spoke the words that angry tone she constantly uses would make my point more clear.

Really? You honestly can't be coming out with ***** like that and expect anybody to take you seriously.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ordinary foik won't ever read bloggers like him. Most ordinary folk aren't keen on another indy ref 2 being honest and with May not out-rightly blocking it most ordinary folk won't care.

glory glory

To be fair, a big fat zero of the points he makes about how he thinks this will play out depend on anyone reading his blog.

[CathroMustStay]

*****PLEASE SIGN AND SPREAD AROUND THIS PETITION TO ALL YOUR YES SUPPORTING FAMILY/FRIENDS IN SUPPORT OF A SECOND REFERENDUM. WE CURRENTLY HAVE 22,510 SIGNATURES, WE NEED 100,000 SIGNATURES FOR A PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE*****

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168781

[JackLadd]

What a wee shame for the midden heid Sturgeon. Won't be making people's lives a misery and turning the country in on itself again anytime soon. Thank god. And that also goes for her wee green goblin enabler Patrick Harvie.


:thumbsup:

[G B Young]

Definitely not a tory and I'm all in favor of the EU however its politically a master stroke by May. There is no appetite for indy ref 2 except for mainly SNP supporters and by outlining a valid reason for waiting until after EU negotiations to discuss another possible indy vote there is every possibility the Scottish folk will turn against Nicola as she will seem obsessed with the issue. Its a win win for May and I speak as an EU supporter. Its political maneuvering of a skillful type I'm afraid.

It's also the correct decision.

[CropleyWasGod]

What a wee shame for the midden heid Sturgeon. Won't be making people's lives a misery and turning the country in on itself again anytime soon. Thank god. And that also goes for her wee green goblin enabler Patrick Harvie.


:thumbsup:

What was it you were saying about abuse?

[stantonhibby]

*****PLEASE SIGN AND SPREAD AROUND THIS PETITION TO ALL YOUR YES SUPPORTING FAMILY/FRIENDS IN SUPPORT OF A SECOND REFERENDUM. WE CURRENTLY HAVE 22,510 SIGNATURES, WE NEED 100,000 SIGNATURES FOR A PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE*****

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168781

The no referendum petition is already over 150,000 so there will be a debate.

[allmodcons]

What a wee shame for the midden heid Sturgeon. Won't be making people's lives a misery and turning the country in on itself again anytime soon. Thank god. And that also goes for her wee green goblin enabler Patrick Harvie.


:thumbsup:

Your the type to do that, not NS.

Just like the Orange Order Loyalists in George Square after Indyref 1.

[Radium]

What a wee shame for the midden heid Sturgeon. Won't be making people's lives a misery and turning the country in on itself again anytime soon. Thank god. And that also goes for her wee green goblin enabler Patrick Harvie.


:thumbsup:

Not sure that either side will see it a simply as that.

PM currently saying not before Brexit is sorted out.

FM saying has to take place before Brexit happens

Lots of scope for a political compromise

In the meantime Yes campaigners get to play the Tory bogie woman card whilst No campaigners will remind voters that it has already been sorted.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TrinityHibs]

The referendum was lost remember?

The referendum was not lost. The referendum was decided. In fact 2 referendums (if that is a word) were decided. Some people were happy with both decisions. Some were only happy with one and others were not happy at all. I get the feeling that some the posters on this thread fall into the third category. The we love democracy only when we get the results we want category.

[G B Young]

*****PLEASE SIGN AND SPREAD AROUND THIS PETITION TO ALL YOUR YES SUPPORTING FAMILY/FRIENDS IN SUPPORT OF A SECOND REFERENDUM. WE CURRENTLY HAVE 22,510 SIGNATURES, WE NEED 100,000 SIGNATURES FOR A PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE*****

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168781

You'll get a parliamentary debate because the petition to block a second referendum has already hit nearly 160,000 signatures:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642

[Moulin Yarns]

What was it you were saying about abuse?

he won't learn. A lost cause I'm afraid.

[JackLadd]

Your the type to do that, not NS.

Just like the Orange Order Loyalists in George Square after Indyref 1.


We've had a peace and quiet since 2014.


And how dare you suggest I am some Orange Order loyalist because I oppose this rogue ref root and branch.

[Jack]

What a wee shame for the midden heid Sturgeon. Won't be making people's lives a misery and turning the country in on itself again anytime soon. Thank god. And that also goes for her wee green goblin enabler Patrick Harvie.


:thumbsup:

Tell us what you know about "scotland in union" please?

[allmodcons]

We've had a peace and quiet since 2014.


And how dare you suggest I am some Orange Order loyalist because I oppose this rogue ref root and branch.

Aaaw diddums.

[bigwheel]

What a wee shame for the midden heid Sturgeon. Won't be making people's lives a misery and turning the country in on itself again anytime soon. Thank god. And that also goes for her wee green goblin enabler Patrick Harvie.


:thumbsup:


Do you think your tone on this topic is one of collaboration and unity?

[Moulin Yarns]

Aaaw diddums.

I googled the name and got this

http://d21gd0ap5v1ndt.cloudfront.net/web02/sxu/images/mug_shots/2015-16/jack_ladd_122_mfb.jpg?va110063049f5a3b24a9d608aeb9 ea5d453eec0ea (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjXmNyqttvSAhWLvhQKHSakAEIQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sxucougars.com%2Froster%2F49% 2F5%2F5801.php&psig=AFQjCNEO5l5uO1tJFbH4W-H77fmDEsB-DA&ust=1489767431188463)

[G B Young]

The referendum was not lost. The referendum was decided. In fact 2 referendums (if that is a word) were decided. Some people were happy with both decisions. Some were only happy with one and others were not happy at all. I get the feeling that some the posters on this thread fall into the third category. The we love democracy only when we get the results we want category.

ie those who have never ceased whinging since the 2014 referendum was decided decisively in favour or remaining part of the UK. Their reaction can be summed up as 'We lost. No fair. We want another referendum. And another...until we get our way'. The lack of respect for that result by the SNP has been ceaseless and as I've already mentioned Brexit is little more than a smokescreen for cranking up the independence bandwagon again (despite the fact a third of 'yes' voters also voted for Brexit).

The quiet majority of Scottish voters will be breathing a sigh of relief today that we can put the prospect of another referendum on the back burner for a few more years (and hopefully for good). Sadly, the nationalist screeching at this perceived injustice cannot be put on the back burner so it'll be a case of simply changing the TV channel each time Sturgeon, Salmond, Roberstson et al hove into view.

[ronaldo7]

A ****ing disgrace.


It must be the only green party that wants to promote an oil based economy. ****ing ********s. The blokes head is so far up Sturgeons arse he could brush her teeth.


Nah it's my turn to come out angry. Fortunately your mob are in the minority in your home city, and now need to be challenged at every turn.


I fully expect it to get violent this time around.


You've taken this knock-back quite badly I see.

It was no victory, there were only losers from the last referendum and Scotland is a worse place for having had it. Too many people just can't bear having been in the minority and it would have been the same the other way round.

BTW May is elected to parliament. Neither UK or Scotland run elections for the top job.

First 4 posts prior to today's announcement, you seemed rather angry, then you tell others they've taken it badly. :faf:

[Moulin Yarns]

How the remain vote by party

[Just Alf]

What a wee shame for the midden heid Sturgeon. Won't be making people's lives a misery and turning the country in on itself again anytime soon. Thank god. And that also goes for her wee green goblin enabler Patrick Harvie.


[emoji106]
For someone that continously shouts foul regarding posts seemingly "playing the man/woman" this is an absolute belter!


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

We don't want Brexit. The view of the London School of Economics

The majority of the electorate did not vote for Brexit

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-will-of-the-british-people-it-never-has-been/

[Hibernia&Alba]

For someone that continously shouts foul regarding posts seemingly "playing the man/woman" this is an absolute belter!


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Been launched. It's sad this issue often provokes people to leave rational debate and stray into the polemical.

[grunt]

... as I've already mentioned Brexit is little more than a smokescreen for cranking up the independence bandwagon again I think you'll find that Brexit is something far more than a smokescreen. IMO it is likely to herald a significant downturn in the wealth and wellbeing of the country and everyone in it. For May to call the Scottish ref "divisive" is the ultimate pot / kettle black comment.

Just a few short years ago it seemed we had consensus politics across the UK, now everyone is at each others' throats. It is all deeply sad.

[Moulin Yarns]

Professor Curtice tells it like it is.

http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2016/10/why-did-scotland-vote-to-remain/

[JeMeSouviens]

Been launched. It's sad this issue often provokes people to leave rational debate and stray into the polemical.

Guess I'm not getting the response to my big line-by-liner of this morning. :boo hoo:

Pesky mods :rolleyes::wink:

[TrinityHibs]

We don't want Brexit. The view of the London School of Economics

The majority of the electorate did not vote for Brexit

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-will-of-the-british-people-it-never-has-been/

That's semantics I think Golden. The majority of those that chose to vote voted for Brexit. Those that chose not to vote tacitly accepted the outcome. That's democracy whether you like the outcome or not. Polls before and after are merely points of interest. The only poll that counts is when you put the cross on the ballot paper

[JeMeSouviens]

That's semantics I think Golden. The majority of those that chose to vote voted for Brexit. Those that chose not to vote tacitly accepted the outcome. That's democracy whether you like the outcome or not. Polls before and after are merely points of interest. The only poll that counts is when you put the cross on the ballot paper

I agree. Can't be arsed to vote, can't be counted in the outcome.

[grunt]

That's semantics I think Golden. The majority of those that chose to vote voted for Brexit. Those that chose not to vote tacitly accepted the outcome. That's democracy whether you like the outcome or not. Polls before and after are merely points of interest. The only poll that counts is when you put the cross on the ballot paperGood point. Maybe we should have mandatory voting?

[marinello59]

May has probably done exactly what Nicola Sturgeon wanted her to do. I see this as good news for the Yes campaign. May isn't blocking the vote, she is delaying it giving the Yes side more time to win the votes we need. Brexit was a justifiable reason for calling for a referundum but on it's own it simply isn't enough to get us over the line. May's determination to play the arrogant Westminster Tory should help to get us off to a flying start though.

[JeMeSouviens]

May has probably done exactly what Nicola Sturgeon wanted her to do. I see this as good news for the Yes campaign. May isn't blocking the vote, she is delaying it giving the Yes side more time to win the votes we need. Brexit was a justifiable reason for calling for a referundum but on it's own it simply isn't enough to get us over the line. May's determination to play the arrogant Westminster Tory should help to get us off to a flying start though.

I agree but otoh, post-Brexit they (UK Tories) can probably exclude EU citizens from the electorate.

[Betty Boop]

ie those who have never ceased whinging since the 2014 referendum was decided decisively in favour or remaining part of the UK. Their reaction can be summed up as 'We lost. No fair. We want another referendum. And another...until we get our way'. The lack of respect for that result by the SNP has been ceaseless and as I've already mentioned Brexit is little more than a smokescreen for cranking up the independence bandwagon again (despite the fact a third of 'yes' voters also voted for Brexit).

The quiet majority of Scottish voters will be breathing a sigh of relief today that we can put the prospect of another referendum on the back burner for a few more years (and hopefully for good). Sadly, the nationalist screeching at this perceived injustice cannot be put on the back burner so it'll be a case of simply changing the TV channel each time Sturgeon, Salmond, Roberstson et al hove into view.

Couldn"t agree more ! :top marks

[Slavers]

May has probably done exactly what Nicola Sturgeon wanted her to do. I see this as good news for the Yes campaign. May isn't blocking the vote, she is delaying it giving the Yes side more time to win the votes we need. Brexit was a justifiable reason for calling for a referundum but on it's own it simply isn't enough to get us over the line. May's determination to play the arrogant Westminster Tory should help to get us off to a flying start though.

Depends how you look on it, many and I believe the majority of Scots will have welcomed Theresa Mays stance today.

[greenlex]

Been launched. It's sad this issue often provokes people to leave rational debate and stray into the polemical.
I may be wrong but I think the poster may have been launched for their rascist undertones on the forth bridge thread elsewhere rather than their bluster on the referendum "debate".

[Hibernia&Alba]

I may be wrong but I think the poster may have been launched for their rascist undertones on the forth bridge thread elsewhere rather than their bluster on the referendum "debate".

I see. I haven't seen that.

[greenlex]

Depends how you look on it, many and I believe the majority of Scots will have welcomed Theresa Mays stance today.
In what way? She hasnt said no has she? Its clear there will be another referendum its just a matter of when. If the government continue to twist and turn to appease their back benchers or 1922 club on domestic matters and continue to look like they are failing miserably in preparing for Brexit it can only help an Independence stance. They look weak whatever way you look at it.

[hibs0666]

In what way? She hasnt said no has she? Its clear there will be another referendum its just a matter of when. If the government continue to twist and turn to appease their back back benchers on domestic matters and continue to look like they are failing miserably in preparing for Brexit it can only help an Independence stance. They look weak whatever way you look at it.

Nothing wrong with another referendum. 2023/24 feels about the right timescale.

[Slavers]

In what way? She hasnt said no has she? Its clear there will be another referendum its just a matter of when. If the government continue to twist and turn to appease their back benchers or 1922 club on domestic matters and continue to look like they are failing miserably in preparing for Brexit it can only help an Independence stance. They look weak whatever way you look at it.

I mean most Scots will welcome her putting indyref2 on the back burner until Brexit has been dealt with.

[Pretty Boy]

As always folks we don't allow discussion of banned posters publicly. A few people complained about his posts and he was dealt with.

Let's leave it at that and get this thread back on topic. Thanks.

[cabbageandribs1875]

A once in a generation vote said Salmond and Nip in 2014, and there was no aye buts, mibbe ifs, hud oan the noos about it. Of course ignoring referendum results is what the SNP do best, aside from biting the hand that feeds like an ungrateful wee dug. :rolleyes:


aww Dude...you've left us. cheerio Dude, missing you already, mind how you spend yer Groats, Dude

[johnbc70]

Quite happy with that call from May. I want to know what I am voting for in terms of EU membership in the next referendum, not ifs buts and maybes and on the say so of some Spanish dude nobody has heard of.

[Just Alf]

I mean most Scots will welcome her putting indyref2 on the back burner until Brexit has been dealt with.
You might be right I guess, although "most" isn't fitting with my own experience.. ... in my head though, I'd been thinking having a chance to vote once we knew largely what the BREXIT deal was looking like but prior to actually the divorce being signed would give a prospective iScotland (the "i" bit obviously a big assumption!) a better position to discuss next steps with Europe.



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[CapitalGreen]

I mean most Scots will welcome her putting indyref2 on the back burner until Brexit has been dealt with.

Are you the self-proclaimed spokesperson for most Scots?

[Slavers]

Are you the self-proclaimed spokesperson for most Scots?

No! It's just what I think, I did say that in my previous post and the polls seem to back what I am saying.

[stoneyburn hibs]

May has probably done exactly what Nicola Sturgeon wanted her to do. I see this as good news for the Yes campaign. May isn't blocking the vote, she is delaying it giving the Yes side more time to win the votes we need. Brexit was a justifiable reason for calling for a referundum but on it's own it simply isn't enough to get us over the line. May's determination to play the arrogant Westminster Tory should help to get us off to a flying start though.

This is on the money.

[Slavers]

Really? You honestly can't be coming out with ***** like that and expect anybody to take you seriously.

I don't know why that is offensive for you to read. Nicola Sturgeon has had nothing but angry rants since brexit.

[grunt]

I don't know why that is offensive for you to read. Nicola Sturgeon has had nothing but angry rants since brexit.I know how she feels. I've not stopped being angry since the vote myself.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I don't know why that is offensive for you to read. Nicola Sturgeon has had nothing but angry rants since brexit.

Angry rants ? I must have missed them.

[Slavers]

You might be right I guess, although "most" isn't fitting with my own experience.. ... in my head though, I'd been thinking having a chance to vote once we knew largely what the BREXIT deal was looking like but prior to actually the divorce being signed would give a prospective iScotland (the "i" bit obviously a big assumption!) a better position to discuss next steps with Europe.



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As you say a lot of if and buts for example say the SNP lost the next referendum but because they insisted on holding it whilst the UK was dealing with the brexit negotiations and it resulted in a weakening of the UK's position and therefore a worse deal for the UK then it would leave the SNP and the UK in a horrid place.

[Mon Dieu4]

As you say a lot of if and buts for example say the SNP lost the next referendum but because they insisted on holding it whilst the UK was dealing with the brexit negotiations and it resulted in a weakening of the UK's position and therefore a worse deal for the UK then it would leave the SNP and the UK in a horrid place.

We would be in a better position to try and arrange a deal while we are still in the EU rather than outside it so this is the optimum time to do it

[DaveF]

First 4 posts prior to today's announcement, you seemed rather angry, then you tell others they've taken it badly. :faf:

Saved me the task of doing this, lol.

A classic set of posts from Mr 666.

[The Green Goblin]

Fair enough probably if she spoke the words that angry tone she constantly uses would make my point more clear.

So, hypothetically if one day she said the words you typed on a post on hibs.net in an angry voice then your point that she was angry and bitter would be proved right? :aok:


What a wee shame for the midden heid Sturgeon. Won't be making people's lives a misery and turning the country in on itself again anytime soon. Thank god. And that also goes for her wee green goblin enabler Patrick Harvie.

Here you....:cb

[Slavers]

We would be in a better position to try and arrange a deal while we are still in the EU rather than outside it so this is the optimum time to do it

I'm not so sure. I think the EU would rather us out then use as much leverage as possible on our application to rejoin.

I think it's unrealistic to think Scotland could remain part of the EU whilst the UK leaves.

It's all a mute point now as the indyref2 is no happening until after the UK leaves the EU.

[steakbake]

As you say a lot of if and buts for example say the SNP lost the next referendum but because they insisted on holding it whilst the UK was dealing with the brexit negotiations and it resulted in a weakening of the UK's position and therefore a worse deal for the UK then it would leave the SNP and the UK in a horrid place.

I think part of Sturgeon's move was to prevent Scottish resources being horsetraded with the EU. Quite right to weaken the hand of a PM who would sign away fishing rights for financial passporting for example.

Now TM cannot offer anything as it is not certain it's hers to bargain with.

[greenlex]

I mean most Scots will welcome her putting indyref2 on the back burner until Brexit has been dealt with.
Referendum debate shouldn't be put back but I'm comfortable enough to leave a referendum till later to know exactly what we are voting ourselves into or rather out of. That means months after a Brexit deal becomes known rather than years.
We would be back into Europe within a few years should that be what want or from my point of view somewhere in between rather than a your coming with us whether you like it or not attitude permeating from the Westminster government.

[grunt]

... it would leave the SNP and the UK in a horrid place.We're already in a horrid place, and not from our own choice.


I think part of Sturgeon's move was to prevent Scottish resources being horsetraded with the EU. Quite right to weaken the hand of a PM who would sign away fishing rights for financial passporting for example. Now TM cannot offer anything as it is not certain it's hers to bargain with.
Exactly. One key reason why May wants to hang on to Scotland during her Brexit negotiations is so she can use our assets in exchange for favours from the EU. She doesn't care for the Scottish people, just what she can use us for. More bargaining chips for her.

There's also the issue that if she waits until we're out of the EU before she "allows" our referendum, then those EU people in Scotland will no longer have a vote in the referendum. This is gerrymandering, I think.