Indy Ref 2

[Hibernia&Alba]

The people of Govanhill are waiting for the answers to our previous questions....:rolleyes:

The whole point of independence should be to improve the lives of folk in communities like Govanhill, IMO, otherwise the whole idea has no substance. The same policies from Holyrood instead of Westminster would be tokenism.

[Slavoj Zizek]

The whole point of independence should be to improve the lives of folk in communities like Govanhill, IMO, otherwise the whole idea has no substance. The same policies from Holyrood instead of Westminster would be tokenism.

No answers to our specfic questions then... :rolleyes:

[Slavoj Zizek]

I work ocassionally in Govanhill: "Has Govanhill got better in the last 10 years" We had the Greens, Labour, Cons, SSP you name it, we had them and the only convincing answer we had came from the RISE spokesperson. This is Sturgeon's consituency BTW. Same could be said of every deprived consituency I have worked in throughout the Central Belt. When is the rise in Carer's Allowance happening? When are ATOS exams being abolished? When is UC being replaced with a fairer Housing Benefit system and why did the Scottish Government delay the transfer of Social Security Powers despite this being in the Edinburgh Agreement? Not on the electoral register myself for reasons to utterly pointless to go into. These, however, are legit questions I have to deal with on a daily basis...

Bold = All things the Scottish Parliament can do RIGHT NOW to allievate poverty. Why not...

[grunt]

Bold = All things the Scottish Parliament can do RIGHT NOW to allievate poverty. Why not...I'm guessing that finance has something to do with it. Have you asked these questions of the politicians? It seems to me that shouting the same question time and again at football fans on a supporters forum is possibly not the most effective way to obtain insight into political and economic decision making?

[Slavoj Zizek]

I'm guessing that finance has something to do with it. Have you asked these questions of the politicians? It seems to me that shouting the same question time and again at football fans on a supporters forum is possibly not the most effective way to obtain insight into political and economic decision making?

LOL. See my previous post for asking politicians. No more posts from me on this subject... :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

LOL. See my previous post for asking politicians. No more posts from me on this subject... :rolleyes:

Have you had any response from Glasgow city council?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The whole point of independence should be to improve the lives of folk in communities like Govanhill, IMO, otherwise the whole idea has no substance. The same policies from Holyrood instead of Westminster would be tokenism.

So we all have to take the biggest risk in modern political and economic history, to improve the lives of people in govanhill?

I dont see why i should risk my wellbeing, job, pension, savings and ultimately my family home.

We already have free/susidised housing, free education, free healthcare amd a raft of other helping hands. How much more do people need, and how much should i habe to give up for them to achieve it?

[RyeSloan]

Thank you, you've put it very well.

But there's something more, at least for me.

I don't want to be part of a country where the majority think it's ok to blame all their ills on incomers, foreigners, immigrants.
We live in a connected world, and I was born where I was through circumstances I had no control over.
The same applies to people from other countries, and I don't blame them for wanting to move and improve their lot.
I want to live in an inclusive world where we judge people on how they act towards us, how they live, rather than where they were born.
I'm disgusted at UKIP/Daily Mail and their vile impact on modern British society.

Ms Sturgeon, if she's true to her word, offers me the chance to live in an open society which welcomes incomers.

And what evidence is there that the majority (whoever they are) blame all their ills (whatever they may be) on incommers?

What evidence is there that Scotland as a whole has any more or less of this mystery majority? Or that Scotland (which has significantly LESS immigration and social change compared to areas like Bradford and its ilk) is any more inclusive in it's general attitude to immigrants?

And while I don't necessarily disagree with your general point on the flip side those that do just happen to have been born, live and work in the country might be given a hearing as well. People can have legitimate concerns regarding unfettered immigration (especially when it involves large amount of low paid low skilled) without being labelled Daily Mail / UKIPers and still believe in an inclusive and open outlook.

[Hibernia&Alba]

So we all have to take the biggest risk in modern political and economic history, to improve the lives of people in govanhill?

I dont see why i should risk my wellbeing, job, pension, savings and ultimately my family home.

We already have free/susidised housing, free education, free healthcare amd a raft of other helping hands. How much more do people need, and how much should i habe to give up for them to achieve it?

I don't think anybody is saying you should. My view is that independence is only worthwhile if it's for something better. Neoliberalism and austerity from Edinburgh is no better than neoliberalism and austerity from London. It's a fundamental question of what independence would be for.

[xyz23jc]

Another random European guy talking pish? Interesting Mister Bond! Wonder if they got the idea from our 'sister' parliament?

http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/margallo-affirms-that-spain-owes-favours-to-other-countries-for-secret-agreements-against-catalonia/?utm_source=Catalonia+Votes&utm_campaign=2c833105e0-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_03_23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d7687e41a5-2c833105e0-214842245

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And what evidence is there that the majority (whoever they are) blame all their ills (whatever they may be) on incommers?

What evidence is there that Scotland as a whole has any more or less of this mystery majority? Or that Scotland (which has significantly LESS immigration and social change compared to areas like Bradford and its ilk) is any more inclusive in it's general attitude to immigrants?

And while I don't necessarily disagree with your general point on the flip side those that do just happen to have been born, live and work in the country might be given a hearing as well. People can have legitimate concerns regarding unfettered immigration (especially when it involves large amount of low paid low skilled) without being labelled Daily Mail / UKIPers and still believe in an inclusive and open outlook.

I would go further, and say it is quite clear that when confronted with mass immigration, Scotland has proved itself to be very hostile and unwelcoming. And over a hundred years after mass Irish immigration began, we are still dealing with the legacy of our reaction to it.

This idea of Scottish exceptionalism is dangerous. If edinburgh, glasgow or dundee had become majority muslim, asian cities in the space of thirty or forty years, do you really belive that there wouldnt have been at least the same reaction?

History suggests there would have been.

[Hibernia&Alba]

And what evidence is there that the majority (whoever they are) blame all their ills (whatever they may be) on incommers?

What evidence is there that Scotland as a whole has any more or less of this mystery majority? Or that Scotland (which has significantly LESS immigration and social change compared to areas like Bradford and its ilk) is any more inclusive in it's general attitude to immigrants?

And while I don't necessarily disagree with your general point on the flip side those that do just happen to have been born, live and work in the country might be given a hearing as well. People can have legitimate concerns regarding unfettered immigration (especially when it involves large amount of low paid low skilled) without being labelled Daily Mail / UKIPers and still believe in an inclusive and open outlook.

Immigration has never been unfettered. It's never been the case that anybody from anywhere can come to Britain permanently with no question asked. Free movement of capital and labour within the EU countries is something all member states sign up to, and also means UK citizens were free to work/live in the other 26 countries. It's a shame we will lose that; the evidence suggests the British economy has gained overall because of it. Conflating the issue of free movement and immigration from outside the EU was a deliberate tactic of the Brexiteers e.g. the disgraceful poster during the campaign which showed Syrian refugees - nothing to do with the European Union.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don't think anybody is saying you should. My view is that independence is only worthwhile if it's for something better. Neoliberalism and austerity from Edinburgh is no better than neoliberalism and austerity from London. It's a fundamental question of what independence would be for.


Yeah fair point, but that is the danger i talk about. Getting people to vote for independence based on policy decisions that are unlikely to ever take place are disingenuous and set us up to fail from the outset.

And surely you can accept that ripping up a huge chunk of our economy, and jeopardising our biggest industries represents a substantial risk? I am fairly certain that my job will disappear if we vote yes. Are you saying that isnt a risk, especially as nobody can even say what currency my savings and pension will be in, and what will happen to their value.

Surely you can see the risk there?

You can ultimately never know if indy will be better, until it happens. None of us can. It comes down to do you trust politicians to deliver? And the scottish parliament's track record is underwhelming after 18 years of devolution.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yeah fair point, but that is the danger i talk about. Getting people to vote for independence based on policy decisions that are unlikely to ever take place are disingenuous and set us up to fail from the outset.

And surely you can accept that ripping up a huge chunk of our economy, and jeopardising our biggest industries represents a substantial risk? I am fairly certain that my job will disappear if we vote yes. Are you saying that isnt a risk, especially as nobody can even say what currency my savings and pension will be in, and what will happen to their value.

Surely you can see the risk there?

Brexit is the bigger risk, IMO, and we were promised that remaining in the UK was the only way to ensure continued EU membership.

[makaveli1875]

Brexit is the bigger risk, IMO, and we were promised that remaining in the UK was the only way to ensure continued EU membership.

how can you say for certain brexit is the bigger risk ?

we dont share a currency with the EU , we dont share a land border with the EU , our army is tied to the UK not the EU , our police , intelligence and security are tied to the UK . we trade alot more with the UK . The risks of leaving the UK look far greater and more difficult to overcome than anything to do with leaving the EU . IMO obviously

[grunt]

And what evidence is there that the majority (whoever they are) blame all their ills (whatever they may be) on incommers?

What evidence is there that Scotland as a whole has any more or less of this mystery majority? Or that Scotland (which has significantly LESS immigration and social change compared to areas like Bradford and its ilk) is any more inclusive in it's general attitude to immigrants?

And while I don't necessarily disagree with your general point on the flip side those that do just happen to have been born, live and work in the country might be given a hearing as well. People can have legitimate concerns regarding unfettered immigration (especially when it involves large amount of low paid low skilled) without being labelled Daily Mail / UKIPers and still believe in an inclusive and open outlook.I don't know if there's evidence or not. What I was trying to convey was how I felt. I think back to Farage and his poster with the queue of refugees.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Brexit is the bigger risk, IMO, and we were promised that remaining in the UK was the only way to ensure continued EU membership.

I dont agree its a bigger risk. Leaving the UK will be much tougher, and we would effectivelybe starting our own economy from scratch, possibly excluded from by far and away our biggest market.

It is brexit on steroids in terms of ramifications IMO.

Brexit is a big risk, i admit.

So, would you advocate staying in the UK if we had all voted remain?

[Hibernia&Alba]

how can you say for certain brexit is the bigger risk ?

we dont share a currency with the EU , we dont share a land border with the EU , our army is tied to the UK not the EU , our police , intelligence and security are tied to the UK . we trade alot more with the UK . The risks of leaving the UK look far greater and more difficult to overcome than anything to do with leaving the EU . IMO obviously


Long term I think Brexit will prove calamitous politically, economically and socially. As someone who voted No last time, and in no small part due to the EU issue, I feel taken for a fool. I think Scotland within the EU could do very well - there are countries of similar size and smaller which are members - and it's also more consistent with the type of society I wish to live in. We're about to lose the social minimums which the EU guarantees, and future Tory governments in London will increasingly steer us into the American model of society. I can't accept the race to bottom philosophy of the Brexit Tory right, which will only accelerate. I much prefer the social democratic progressivism of the EU. There is a schism between England and Scotland about the type of society we want, and Brexit is the breaking point for me. For some it came sooner, for others it will be later, but I think the break up of the UK is now looking inevitable at some point.

[makaveli1875]

Long term I think Brexit will prove calamitous politically, economically and socially. As someone who voted No last time, and in no small part due to the EU issue, I feel taken for a fool. I think Scotland within the EU could do very well - there are countries of similar size and smaller which are members - and it's also more consistent with the type of society I wish to live in. We're about to lose the social minimums which the EU guarantees, and future Tory governments in London will increasingly steer us into the American model of society. I can't accept the race to bottom philosophy of the Brexit Tory right, which will only accelerate. I much prefer the social democratic progressivism of the EU.

people try and hold up the EU as some sort of beacon of human rights and decency . well a good chunk of the EU is currently behind razorwire fences with armed guards on the borders . As for human rights , tell that story to the thousands that are holed up in squalid camps in greece and the balkans , or the thousands detained by turkey at the EU's request . Is that the type of society that you want ?

[Slavers]

how can you say for certain brexit is the bigger risk ?

we dont share a currency with the EU , we dont share a land border with the EU , our army is tied to the UK not the EU , our police , intelligence and security are tied to the UK . we trade alot more with the UK . The risks of leaving the UK look far greater and more difficult to overcome than anything to do with leaving the EU . IMO obviously


Spot on!

But the cult of independence will turn any negative into a positive, any fears are swiped away as fear mongering with no concern at all but then on the other side of their face Brexit is deemed to be an utter disaster with every negative amplified x10000000 and all fears are justified.

[Hibernia&Alba]

people try and hold up the EU as some sort of beacon of human rights and decency . well a good chunk of the EU is currently behind razorwire fences with armed guards on the borders . As for human rights , tell that story to the thousands that are holed up in squalid camps in greece and the balkans , or the thousands detained by turkey at the EU's request . Is that the type of society that you want ?

No of course not, that's a rhetorical question, but I want EU membership, like two-thirds of Scots. I won't allow future Tory governments to turn Britain into the sweatshop of Europe, and make no mistake that's what the Tory right wants, outside of the EU. If the south of England wants that, good luck to them, but I want no part of that.

[RyeSloan]

I don't know if there's evidence or not. What I was trying to convey was how I felt. I think back to Farage and his poster with the queue of refugees.

Fair enough but when you justify that view by making sweeping statements about a majority blaming their ills on immigrants it's interesting to find out what that view is based on. Not sure but a Farage poster maybe doesn't quite cut it in that regard as I'm pretty sure we can say he doesn't speak for the majority (at least going by votes / MPs/ polling support for UKIP)

As I said I get you point and don't really disagree but quite how that relates to Indy and what a future Scotland will look like I'm not sure as I have doubts that Scotland as a whole is demonstrably different in its social attitudes to the rest of the UK.

[Hibrandenburg]

people try and hold up the EU as some sort of beacon of human rights and decency . well a good chunk of the EU is currently behind razorwire fences with armed guards on the borders . As for human rights , tell that story to the thousands that are holed up in squalid camps in greece and the balkans , or the thousands detained by turkey at the EU's request . Is that the type of society that you want ?

Glad to hear you'd welcome those in the squalid camps refuge here.

[RyeSloan]

Immigration has never been unfettered. It's never been the case that anybody from anywhere can come to Britain permanently with no question asked. Free movement of capital and labour within the EU countries is something all member states sign up to, and also means UK citizens were free to work/live in the other 26 countries. It's a shame we will lose that; the evidence suggests the British economy has gained overall because of it. Conflating the issue of free movement and immigration from outside the EU was a deliberate tactic of the Brexiteers e.g. the disgraceful poster during the campaign which showed Syrian refugees - nothing to do with the European Union.

It has been unfettered from the EU though and massively larger than any predictions that the politicians that allowed it ever said it would be.

Deliberate tactic or not it's a good point. Why defend open borders to the EU as some sort of bastion of openness but at the same time support restricted access to those from the rest of the world?

If you truly want an open and diverse immigration policy then why not apply it to all of the worlds citizens and at the same time try to ensure those that come will result in a win win for all involved? There is scope to say open borders in Europe but closed to the world is maybe not the best or most sensible solution without that position being anti immigration or portrayed as pulling up the drawbridge.

Anyhoo maybe a bit tangential to the Op so maybe I'll leave it here [emoji108]

[JeMeSouviens]

how can you say for certain brexit is the bigger risk ?

we dont share a currency with the EU , we dont share a land border with the EU , our army is tied to the UK not the EU , our police , intelligence and security are tied to the UK . we trade alot more with the UK . The risks of leaving the UK look far greater and more difficult to overcome than anything to do with leaving the EU . IMO obviously


Is it all about opinions and like ********s ... etc.

Mine (fwiw) is that in 2014 independence was economically a significant risk vs the status quo in the short term but with a decent potential for upside in the long term. It was politically a much better proposition than the status quo in that it would allow Scotland and England to diverge gradually over time to suit each country's wants which might not have been hugely different but nonetheless do not align without friction. Lastly, emotionally/psychologically my opinion was that we have benefited from the limited responsibility of devolution and we are gradually shedding the blame-the-English and cringe mentality.

This time, I think it's economically a very significant risk (Indy) vs significant risk (Brexit, can't really call it SQ?) in the short term and a very decent potential for upside (Indy in single market) vs almost guaranteed decline (Brexit) in the long term. Politically it's even more of a no-brainer. Emotion/psyche about the same.

[makaveli1875]

Glad to hear you'd welcome those in the squalid camps refuge here.

all 28 EU countries should be welcoming them equally instead of leaving it all to greece , who are already struggling . Thats the beauty of the EU , a great union when it wuits them but not so united when it comes to things like this

[Hibernia&Alba]

It has been unfettered from the EU though and massively larger than any predictions that the politicians that allowed it ever said it would be.

Deliberate tactic or not it's a good point. Why defend open borders to the EU as some sort of bastion of openness but at the same time support restricted access to those from the rest of the world?

If you truly want an open and diverse immigration policy then why not apply it to all of the worlds citizens and at the same time try to ensure those that come will result in a win win for all involved? There is scope to say open borders in Europe but closed to the world is maybe not the best or most sensible solution without that position being anti immigration or portrayed as pulling up the drawbridge.

Anyhoo maybe a bit tangential to the Op so maybe I'll leave it here [emoji108]

It's a two way street. Britons are free to live and work in rest of the EU also; it isn't just a case of our being taken advantage by Europeans. Indeed the reverse is true - Britain's economy (and society) have gained from free movement in the EU. It's been hugely positive, but we're about to lose it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah fair point, but that is the danger i talk about. Getting people to vote for independence based on policy decisions that are unlikely to ever take place are disingenuous and set us up to fail from the outset.

And surely you can accept that ripping up a huge chunk of our economy, and jeopardising our biggest industries represents a substantial risk? I am fairly certain that my job will disappear if we vote yes. Are you saying that isnt a risk, especially as nobody can even say what currency my savings and pension will be in, and what will happen to their value.

Surely you can see the risk there?

You can ultimately never know if indy will be better, until it happens. None of us can. It comes down to do you trust politicians to deliver? And the scottish parliament's track record is underwhelming after 18 years of devolution.

Funnily enough I lost my job a couple of weeks after Indyref1. Not my greatest month, to be fair. :rolleyes:

I agree on your last point except to point out that our politicians are drawn from and voted for by us. They're our fault. :wink:

I'm not a Scottish exceptionalist and I don't believe our government are either. May's Tories otoh, British exceptionalists to a person!

[northstandhibby]

all 28 EU countries should be welcoming them equally instead of leaving it all to greece , who are already struggling . Thats the beauty of the EU , a great union when it wuits them but not so united when it comes to things like this

Leaving aside for the moment the questions of EU borders, don't you believe in the basic tenets of human rights and holding authorities accountable?

glory glory

[JeMeSouviens]

Bold = All things the Scottish Parliament can do RIGHT NOW to allievate poverty. Why not...

Simply, because not enough people support those things. The Scottish government is a centrist coalition. Anyone expecting the SNP to be radical is dreaming. Mind you, it could be worse for the good folk of Govanhill, the UK government are right wing zealots. Their best hope, imo, is to get behind the Greens. They now have significant pull and are waking up to how to use it.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Funnily enough I lost my job a couple of weeks after Indyref1. Not my greatest month, to be fair. :rolleyes:

I agree on your last point except to point out that our politicians are drawn from and voted for by us. They're our fault. :wink:

I'm not a Scottish exceptionalist and I don't believe our government are either. May's Tories otoh, British exceptionalists to a person!

The UK already has some of the weakest worker protections in the EU; outside of it, that will only get worse. Sacking people will become even easier, when the Tories get to work post-Brexit. They want a society of minimum employment and human rights, but the EU has hitherto put something of a break on their aspirations. When they have a free hand, we're headed for lectures about the value of more zero hour contracts and competing with the likes of Bangladesh for contracts. Full steam ahead to being America's 51st state - a very depressing vision.

[northstandhibby]

Simply, because not enough people support those things. The Scottish government is a centrist coalition. Anyone expecting the SNP to be radical is dreaming. Mind you, it could be worse for the good folk of Govanhill, the UK government are right wing zealots. Their best hope, imo, is to get behind the Greens. They now have significant pull and are waking up to how to use it.

:dunno:

I have absolutely no idea what the SNP stands for except independence. It seems to be the only thing it cares about, at least the greens are honest they're left wing.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

:dunno:

I have absolutely no idea what the SNP stands for except independence. It seems to be the only thing it cares about, at least the greens are honest they're left wing.

glory glory

https://www.snp.org/

Maybe a good place to start.

[northstandhibby]

https://www.snp.org/

Maybe a good place to start.

I expect better from you bud. Reading party propaganda is no way to assess a parties record in government. I cannot think of anything they've achieved I would hold up as a reason to vote for them.

glory glory

[makaveli1875]

The UK already has some of the weakest worker protections in the EU; outside of it, that will only get worse. Sacking people will become even easier, when the Tories get to work post-Brexit. They want a society of minimum employment and human rights, but the EU has hitherto put something of a break on their aspirations. When they have a free hand, we're headed for lectures about the value of more zero hour contracts and competing with the likes of Bangladesh for contracts. Full steam ahead to being America's 51st state - a very depressing vision.

Why would any government want a society of minimum employment ? from what i can see the tories are trying to encourage people to work rather than claim benefits ? and could you give details of any human rights abuses that happen in the Scotland or the rest f the uk for that matter ?

[Hibernia&Alba]

:dunno:

I have absolutely no idea what the SNP stands for except independence. It seems to be the only thing it cares about, at least the greens are honest they're left wing.

glory glory

That's exactly what I mean about independence being for something. IMO, it needs to be a means to an end, not an end in itself, if it's to be meaningful. There needs to be a clear vision of the type of society that would be pursued and how it would differ from post-Brexit Britain. Of course you'd have to believe in the vision in the first place, but the SNP isn't a radical party; I've never voted for them. I agree with you, there's potential with the Greens.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Why would any government want a society of minimum employment ? from what i can see the tories are trying to encourage people to work rather than claim benefits ? and could you give details of any human rights abuses that happen in the Scotland or the rest f the uk for that matter ?

I meant minimum employment and human rights PROTECTIONS. Think I missed a word out!

By the way the UK government has been taken to the ECJ many times and, If I remember rightly, has lost almost 80 per cent of the cases. Post-Brexit there won't be any such mechanism to protect UK citizens from draconian legislation.

[JeMeSouviens]

Why would any government want a society of minimum employment ? from what i can see the tories are trying to encourage people to work rather than claim benefits ? and could you give details of any human rights abuses that happen in the Scotland or the rest f the uk for that matter ?

Minimum employment rights - not minimum employment.

[CropleyWasGod]

I expect better from you bud. Reading party propaganda is no way to assess a parties record in government. I cannot think of anything they've achieved I would hold up as a reason to vote for them.

glory glory

You said that you didn't know what they stand for. I am suggesting that, to ascertain that, you start there.

The question of their record in Government is another argument. But I would suggest that to discuss that, you need to be able to measure it against what their core values are.

[northstandhibby]

Why would any government want a society of minimum employment ? from what i can see the tories are trying to encourage people to work rather than claim benefits ? and could you give details of any human rights abuses that happen in the Scotland or the rest f the uk for that matter ?

Unfortunately we have a hun type media that wouldn't dream of printing the abuses that take place on a daily basis from those in government. The benefit cuts and stops to benefits to genuinely disabled and mentally ill folk have resulted in suicides and real hardships despite what the DWP states as otherwise.

glory glory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Funnily enough I lost my job a couple of weeks after Indyref1. Not my greatest month, to be fair. :rolleyes:

I agree on your last point except to point out that our politicians are drawn from and voted for by us. They're our fault. :wink:

I'm not a Scottish exceptionalist and I don't believe our government are either. May's Tories otoh, British exceptionalists to a person!

Agreed mate, we get the politicians we deserve!

I dont agree with your last assessment - there is undoubtedly a strain within the SNP of Scottish exceptionalism, defined by being better than those English tories.

You should listen to Aileen Campbell's interview on Today programme - quite cringey.

I would also like to add that my lack of faith in politicians extends to the UK, but fhe status quo is good (onviously there are things i would change amd do differently) and so the choice is simply one of status quo versus complete gamble.

[Geo_1875]

Yeah fair point, but that is the danger i talk about. Getting people to vote for independence based on policy decisions that are unlikely to ever take place are disingenuous and set us up to fail from the outset.

And surely you can accept that ripping up a huge chunk of our economy, and jeopardising our biggest industries represents a substantial risk? I am fairly certain that my job will disappear if we vote yes. Are you saying that isnt a risk, especially as nobody can even say what currency my savings and pension will be in, and what will happen to their value.

Surely you can see the risk there?

You can ultimately never know if indy will be better, until it happens. None of us can. It comes down to do you trust politicians to deliver? And the scottish parliament's track record is underwhelming after 18 years of devolution.

When you consider that the Scottish Labour Executive simply did as they were told by Labour in Westminster and that the SNP led Government have faced hostility in Holyrood and ever reducing (in real terms) handouts from Westminster I think some of the Parliaments achievements in 18 years have been laudable.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That's exactly what I mean about independence being for something. IMO, it needs to be a means to an end, not an end in itself, if it's to be meaningful. There needs to be a clear vision of the type of society that would be pursued and how it would differ from post-Brexit Britain. Of course you'd have to believe in the vision in the first place, but the SNP isn't a radical party; I've never voted for them. I agree with you, there's potential with the Greens.

Agree with this but it is difficult, by definition they need to appeal very broadly, but offering a narrow vision of their view of post-indy Scotland will be definition alienate some yes voters.

Its a difficult line to tread, especially as their 'all things to all people' populism is lookinh increasingly flimsy as sturgeon moves left (in rhetoric at least) and their record of a decade in power looks increasingly scant.

[northstandhibby]

You said that you didn't know what they stand for. I am suggesting that, to ascertain that, you start there.

The question of their record in Government is another argument. But I would suggest that to discuss that, you need to be able to measure it against what their core values are.

The starting point of not knowing what they stand for was their record as the governing party as I cannot genuinely think of any outstanding policies they have put in place or any outstanding oral speeches declaring their intentions other than their super-ceding objective of taking Scotland out of the UK.

Core values are all well and good but for me its all about actions over slogans. I'm not against the SNP per-say just couldn't think of anything outstanding they've achieved while in office.

Thanks for posting the link anyhow.

:greengrin

glory glory

[Geo_1875]

Agreed mate, we get the politicians we deserve!

I dont agree with your last assessment - there is undoubtedly a strain within the SNP of Scottish exceptionalism, defined by being better than those English tories.

You should listen to Aileen Campbell's interview on Today programme - quite cringey.

I would also like to add that my lack of faith in politicians extends to the UK, but fhe status quo is good (onviously there are things i would change amd do differently) and so the choice is simply one of status quo versus complete gamble.

****ing joking surely.

[CropleyWasGod]

The starting point of not knowing what they stand for was their record as the governing party as I cannot genuinely think of any outstanding policies they have put in place or any outstanding oral speeches declaring their intentions other than their super-ceding objective of taking Scotland out of the UK.

Core values are all well and good but for me its all about actions over slogans. I'm not against the SNP per-say just couldn't think of anything outstanding they've achieved while in office.

Thanks for posting the link anyhow.

:greengrin

glory glory

Free Higher education
Free care for the elderly
Free prescriptions
Free bus travel for the over 60s (although that was maybe Labour)
Scrapping bridge tolls.
Council Tax freeze
Same-sex marriage

That's a decent list to start with. Whether you agree with them or not, they have all had a major effect on the lives of large parts of the population.

[makaveli1875]

Minimum employment rights - not minimum employment.

interesting , i work with alot of guys from lithuania , latvia , romania and the czech republic and they seem to think workers rights here are far superior to what they had back home


Unfortunately we have a hun type media that wouldn't dream of printing the abuses that take place on a daily basis from those in government. The benefit cuts and stops to benefits to genuinely disabled and mentally ill folk have resulted in suicides and real hardships despite what the DWP states as otherwise.

glory glory

I dont personally know anyone with disability or mental health issues so dont really know much about the hardships they suffer , pretty shocking if thats the way things are for people with these issues. Do you think things would improve for these people in an independent SNP led scotland ?

[northstandhibby]

Free Higher education
Free care for the elderly
Free prescriptions
Free bus travel for the over 60s (although that was maybe Labour)
Scrapping bridge tolls.
Council Tax freeze
Same-sex marriage

That's a decent list to start with. Whether you agree with them or not, they have all had a major effect on the lives of large parts of the population.

Each of these are to be very welcomed indeed and I agree with all of them. However still not massively overwhelmed.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

interesting , i work with alot of guys from lithuania , latvia , romania and the czech republic and they seem to think workers rights here are far superior to what they had back home



I dont personally know anyone with disability or mental health issues so dont really know much about the hardships they suffer , pretty shocking if thats the way things are for people with these issues. Do you think things would improve for these people in an independent SNP led scotland ?

Totally fair enough if you've never heard of the plight of severely disabled and mentally ill folk being stripped of benefits because of Atos and the new American assessor deliberately wrongly assessing them and it has directly led to folk harming and even killing themselves, I've heard plenty of stories. The reason for not hearing of their plight is because the hun type media don't investigate and go against the government.

I don't know the answer to your question but taking us out of the EU and the ECHR would leave folk ever more vulnerable to uncaring governments.

glory glory

[Hibernia&Alba]

]Free Higher education[/B]
Free care for the elderly
Free prescriptions
Free bus travel for the over 60s (although that was maybe Labour)
Scrapping bridge tolls.
Council Tax freeze
Same-sex marriage

That's a decent list to start with. Whether you agree with them or not, they have all had a major effect on the lives of large parts of the population.

Now those are particularly significant and are indicative of different values between Scotland and England. Student debt and the elderly being forced to sell their homes to get residential care is a scandal in England, but they seem happy with it.

[Colr]

Now those are particularly significant and are indicative of different values between Scotland and England. Student debt and the elderly being forced to sell their homes to get residential care is a scandal in England, but they seem happy with it.

Nobody's happy with it but since New Labour folded, there's nobody like the SNP down here with credibility that can deliver an alternative.

[Hibernia&Alba]

interesting , i work with alot of guys from lithuania , latvia , romania and the czech republic and they seem to think workers rights here are far superior to what they had back home


If they are from EU member states, things such as paid holidays, maximum working hours and maternity pay are guaranteed by EU legislation. Outside of the EU, expect these things to be watered down. The social protections of the EU are hated by the Tories and the right wing press, who regard them as 'bureaucracy' which hinder cut throat competition.

[RyeSloan]

Now those are particularly significant and are indicative of different values between Scotland and England. Student debt and the elderly being forced to sell their homes to get residential care is a scandal in England, but they seem happy with it.

All achieved while in this terrible union of course ;-)

[Colr]

If they are from EU member states, things such as paid holidays, maximum working hours and maternity pay are guaranteed by EU legislation. Outside of the EU, expect these things to be watered down. The social protections of the EU are hated by the Tories and the right wing press, who regard them as 'bureaucracy' which hinder cut throat competition.

Its been that way since Lloyd George introduced them!! God bless the class system!

[Hibernia&Alba]

Nobody's happy with it but since New Labour folded, there's nobody like the SNP down here with credibility that can deliver an alternative.

Are you sure 'nobody' is happy with it? It was a New Labour government that introduced university tuition fees, and you'll get no complaints from the Tories when Labour governments are making Tory policy.

The Lib Dems promised no tuition fees then abandoned it in coalition.

[Moulin Yarns]

If they are from EU member states, things such as paid holidays, maximum working hours and maternity pay are guaranteed by EU legislation. Outside of the EU, expect these things to be watered down. The social protections of the EU are hated by the Tories and the right wing press, who regard them as 'bureaucracy' which hinder cut throat competition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country

[Hibernia&Alba]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country

European Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) legislation mandates that all 28 member states must by law grant all employees a minimum of 4 weeks (a total of 28 calendar days) of paid vacation

United states - ZERO!!

That's the utopia for the right wing UKIP types, make no mistake. Post Brexit the Tories will light a bonfire of many such protections and say it's all in the name of 'competitiveness'.

[Moulin Yarns]

European Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) legislation mandates that all 28 member states must by law grant all employees a minimum of 4 weeks (a total of 28 calendar days) of paid vacation

United states - ZERO!!

That's the utopia for the right wing UKIP types, make no mistake.

The couple my wife works for, the husband is American, and he can't believe the rights that UK workers get.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

****ing joking surely.

No.

6th richest country in the world, i live in a prosperous city with full employment and a very high quality of life, in a nice home, my kids will go to good state schools, my family all have jobs, i have a good standard of living, and i have a decent job.

I know that im fairly safe from corruption, i get to vote to three (soon only two) parliaments, i have recourse to a strong and established legal system and it is very safe.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Free Higher education
Free care for the elderly
Free prescriptions
Free bus travel for the over 60s (although that was maybe Labour)
Scrapping bridge tolls.
Council Tax freeze
Same-sex marriage

That's a decent list to start with. Whether you agree with them or not, they have all had a major effect on the lives of large parts of the population.

Just to note, all of those bar one involves giving stuff away for free. The tough bit comes when you are responsible for raising the money to pay for them.

[Colr]

Are you sure 'nobody' is happy with it? It was a New Labour government that introduced university tuition fees, and you'll get no complaints from the Tories when Labour governments are making Tory policy.

The Lib Dems promised no tuition fees then abandoned it in coalition.

The wealthy minority are happy with it as it helps them stitch up all the opportunies they can find.

Seem to be able to pursuade everyone else to vote for their benefit.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The couple my wife works for, the husband is American, and he can't believe the rights that UK workers get.

And that's when we have opt outs in numerous areas of EU legislation. I really do fear we'll move even more towards the American model post-Brexit. Would a Tory government legislate to protect workers? If it were up to them, we still wouldn't have a minimum wage. They opted out of the social charter at Maastricht all those years ago.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Are you sure 'nobody' is happy with it? It was a New Labour government that introduced university tuition fees, and you'll get no complaints from the Tories when Labour governments are making Tory policy.

The Lib Dems promised no tuition fees then abandoned it in coalition.

I actually agree with payments towards uni fees. I also had the misfortune to be one of only two years (i think) who ever had to pay thrm in scotland, not that im bitter...!!

Higher education funding is a problem, and getting a contribution towards it isnt unfair IMO?

[Colr]

And that's when we have opt outs in numerous areas of EU legislation. I really do fear we'll move even more towards the American model post-Brexit. Would a Tory government legislate to protect workers? If it were up to them, we still wouldn't have a minimum wage. They opted out of the social charter at Maastricht all those years ago.

Priti Patel thinks we should emulating Indian working practices and conditions to compete in the global economy.

Tell's you all you need to know about the Tories direction of travel now they have no opposition.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And that's when we have opt outs in numerous areas of EU legislation. I really do fear we'll move even more towards the American model post-Brexit. Would a Tory government legislate to protect workers? If it were up to them, we still wouldn't have a minimum wage. They opted out of the social charter at Maastricht all those years ago.

It is a valid question, and it does concern me. Staying in the union isnt without risks either.

I firmly believe a federal settlement would keep the vast majority of people happy. Although the SNP did strangely start arguing against any funding cuts that might result from raising and spending our own revenue.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I actually agree with payments towards uni fees. I also had the misfortune to be one of only two years (i think) who ever had to pay thrm in scotland, not that im bitter...!!

Higher education funding is a problem, and getting a contribution towards it isnt unfair IMO?

Saddling kids with debt for wanting an education is a disgrace, IMO. We may as well ask for a contribution to schooling then. The cost is a national investment, and if graduates get a higher income as a result, they can re-pay it via progressive taxation. Tuition fees discriminates against those from poorer backgrounds; those with wealthy parents don't face any dilemma about whether to continue in education. A civilised society educates its kids free of charge.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Saddling kids with debt for wanting an education is a disgrace, IMO. We may as well ask for a contribution to schooling then. The cost is a national investment, and if graduates get a higher income as a result, they can re-pay it via progressive taxation. Tuition fees discriminates against those from poorer backgrounds; those with wealthy parents don't face any dilemma about whether to continue in education. A civilised society educates its kids free of charge.

Fair points, i dont hold an ideological view on it. If it can be done for free, then we should. But in a world of increasing pressure on public spending, its not a bad place to start.

Ultimately, i suppose graduates end up paying either way, through more in tax or fees (or both, like me!!)

[Colr]

Saddling kids with debt for wanting an education is a disgrace, IMO. We may as well ask for a contribution to schooling then. The cost is a national investment, and if graduates get a higher income as a result, they can re-pay it via progressive taxation. Tuition fees discriminates against those from poorer backgrounds; those with wealthy parents don't face any dilemma about whether to continue in education. A civilised society educates its kids free of charge.

...and good quality education. The keys to social mobility are inherited wealth, networks and education.

Working class kids are miles behind on all of these points.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I actually agree with payments towards uni fees. I also had the misfortune to be one of only two years (i think) who ever had to pay thrm in scotland, not that im bitter...!!

Higher education funding is a problem, and getting a contribution towards it isnt unfair IMO?

I was one of the misfortunate ones who had to pay fees in Scotland and I still moan about it whenever possible. That £2k could have gone on a few music festivals and a great new sound system...

Joking aside, I agree, it's not unreasonable to ask for a contribution although £9k+ does seem excessive. Not sure if have gone under those circumstances.

IMO, the fees should vary by course so less 'useful' courses should have less funding.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

...and good quality education. The keys to social mobility are inherited wealth, networks and education.

Working class kids are miles behind on all of these points.

Networks often come from good quality education too.

I think what you say is right - you could argue the policy of selling council houses to tennants added hugely to your first point.

[Moulin Yarns]

No.

6th richest country in the world, i live in a prosperous city with full employment and a very high quality of life, in a nice home, my kids will go to good state schools, my family all have jobs, i have a good standard of living, and i have a decent job.

I know that im fairly safe from corruption, i get to vote to three (soon only two) parliaments, i have recourse to a strong and established legal system and it is very safe.

Do you include the homeless, those that sleep rough, without a guaranteed income, in this 'I'm alright Jack' statement???

Shocking statement that is so blatantly untrue.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I was one of the misfortunate ones who had to pay fees in Scotland and I still moan about it whenever possible. That £2k could have gone on a few music festivals and a great new sound system...

Joking aside, I agree, it's not unreasonable to ask for a contribution although £9k+ does seem excessive. Not sure if have gone under those circumstances.

IMO, the fees should vary by course so less 'useful' courses should have less funding.

I agree on courses being differential. It would certainly discouragre more flippant students, and we all went to uni with people who were only there to postpone having to get a job. But i also paid a whack of fees to study post grad, and i had to work a yeat to save up the cash, to pay up front.

I certainly studies harder amd valued that course more as a result. Im not sure that is an argument either way.

Education is the most important intervention that governmeny can make IMO, and so any way to improve and increase quality is worth considering.

[Just Alf]

The starting point of not knowing what they stand for was their record as the governing party as I cannot genuinely think of any outstanding policies they have put in place or any outstanding oral speeches declaring their intentions other than their super-ceding objective of taking Scotland out of the UK.

Core values are all well and good but for me its all about actions over slogans. I'm not against the SNP per-say just couldn't think of anything outstanding they've achieved while in office.

Thanks for posting the link anyhow.

:greengrin

glory glory
Just catching up on this thread.... im not picking on you personally, honest! I'm just using your post as an example.

In a way what does it matter how the SNP have performed in government? That's nothing really to do with independence at all, they're simply the path to that outcome.

In an independent Scotland I can easily see a resurgent Tory party (with a Scottish outlook) a more powerful Green representation and even an improving Libdem showing, Labour will also come back but I fear they have a longer road to travel at the moment than the others. The bottom line though is that an independent Scottish Government will not look anything like the current one after the 1st term (i imagine the SNP will get a positive bounce in the 1st one)



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Do you include the homeless, those that sleep rough, without a guaranteed income, in this 'I'm alright Jack' statement???

Shocking statement that is so blatantly untrue.

Is it?

Apologiea, i didnt realise that my own experience was invalid.

I think homelessness, from what little i know is more a problem of mental health / family breakdown than unemployment.

So in what way is Edinburgh struggling, that makes my comment blatantly untrue?

Surely by using the most extreme example possible to counter, you are highlighting the exception that proves the rule?

As for im alright jack, what do you want me to do, vote counter to my own interests? What do you want me to give up, and how much of it, before society is how you would like it to be?

There will still be homeless people in an independent scotland by the way, i guarentee it.

[Moulin Yarns]

No.

6th richest country in the world, i live in a prosperous city with full employment and a very high quality of life, in a nice home, my kids will go to good state schools, my family all have jobs, i have a good standard of living, and i have a decent job.

I know that im fairly safe from corruption, i get to vote to three (soon only two) parliaments, i have recourse to a strong and established legal system and it is very safe.


Is it?

Apologiea, i didnt realise that my own experience was invalid.

I think homelessness, from what little i know is more a problem of mental health / family breakdown than unemployment.

So in what way is Edinburgh struggling, that makes my comment blatantly untrue?

Surely by using the most extreme example possible to counter, you are highlighting the exception that proves the rule?

Do you really believe that Edinburgh has full employment? You must walk around with blinkers on, or by the sounds of it are driven around by a chauffeur if you believe that .

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Do you really believe that Edinburgh has full employment? You must walk around with blinkers on, or by the sounds of it are driven around by a chauffeur if you believe that .

Yeah, i keep him on zero hours contract though...

More or less, yeah. I habe never known anyone who wanted a job but couldnt get one. And given how many EU people are here working , i would guess demand has outstripped supply.

Happy to be proved wrong though

I think some people on here make out thar we are living through the great depression or something. Things really are quite good,we are among the luckiest humans ever born in the history of the world, to live in this place at this time. I think we should all remember that sometimes.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah, i keep him on zero hours contract though...

More or less, yeah. I habe never known anyone who wanted a job but couldnt get one. And given how many EU people are here working , i would guess demand has outstripped supply.

Happy to be proved wrong though

Well, my personal experience when I lived in Edinburgh was being unemployed for 3 months and being turned down for jobs because I was over qualified.

As for the 'guess' it shows how out of touch with reality you are.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Well, my personal experience when I lived in Edinburgh was being unemployed for 3 months and being turned down for jobs because I was over qualified.

As for the 'guess' it shows how out of touch with reality you are.

Ok, so your own personal experience of 3 months is more true than my experience of a place i still live and work in?

If you know differently, then im happy to be proved wrong. But im not sure where all the jobs that the EU migrants do appear from?

[Just Alf]

I also was unemployed for a bit... "over qualified "
Ended up having to dumb down my cv a bit and took a minimum wage part.time job.

Once there and they got to know me I was offered a promotion and a more office based job.

Came.good in the end tho, I found I was enjoying the significantly less stress so turned them down, they knew I might leave if I could ever find a full time job, id not hidden full time was.my preference, so they changed my contract to full time.

Win win in the end but it shows all.is not clear cut in the jobs picture out there.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Just Alf]

Should add, that was just over a year ago, so not current!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[High-On-Hibs]

According to the unquestionable GERS, GERW and NICVA figures..... 16% of the UK population makes up nearly 60% of the UKs annual deficit.... :hmmm:

[greenlex]

Ok, so your own personal experience of 3 months is more true than my experience of a place i still live and work in?

If you know differently, then im happy to be proved wrong. But im not sure where all the jobs that the EU migrants do appear from?
Your so out of touch it's frightening. Do you seriously believe Edinburgh has full employment? Add to that seasonal work and zerohour contracts and it really isn't the utopia you are painting.

[greenlex]

I also was unemployed for a bit... "over qualified "
Ended up having to dumb down my cv a bit and took a minimum wage part.time job.

Once there and they got to know me I was offered a promotion and a more office based job.

Came.good in the end tho, I found I was enjoying the significantly less stress so turned them down, they knew I might leave if I could ever find a full time job, id not hidden full time was.my preference, so they changed my contract to full time.

Win win in the end but it shows all.is not clear cut in the jobs picture out there.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Mirrors my experience but without the part time issues. Happily employed in a stress free job albeit with a commute to Glasgow.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Your so out of touch it's frightening. Do you seriously believe Edinburgh has full employment? Add to that seasonal work and zerohour contracts and it really isn't the utopia you are painting.

Im not saying its a utopia, im just saying edinburfh is a great place to live, with a very high standard of living.

Yes, i would say it is near enough (i think technically full employment is statistically impossible).

Youre moving the goalposts slightly, bringing in ZHC and seasonal work, but surely they are still jobs? Of course they aremt as secure as others, but there will mever be a time when every job is well paid, guaremteed for life and available for everyone.

Maybe i am out of touch, but then maybe you are?

If someone can show some evidence of a striggling city i will accept it, but i see a city with a diverse employment base, booming commercial properry sector, high residental property values, hifh standards of living, high percentage of graduates, and generally a nice, clean, safe city to live in.

If someone sees something different then thats fair enough, but i can only judge life on how i see it.

Im curious though why people are so quick to dismiss my view as out of touch, why are you so convinced that your own view is in touch?

You are extrapolating out your own personal experiences to a city of half a million people, yet dismiss my experiences as somehow invalid?

[Moulin Yarns]

Can't do a link on my phone but Edinburgh city stats Q3 2016 4.4% unemployment. FACT.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can't do a link on my phone but Edinburgh city stats Q3 2016 4.4% unemployment. FACT.

..which, for most economists, represents "full employment".


(Economist joke alert)

But, if you laid all the economists in the world end-to-end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Can't do a link on my phone but Edinburgh city stats Q3 2016 4.4% unemployment. FACT.

Thank you. I think that would count as more or less full employment, which is where we started.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

..which, for most economists, represents "full employment".


(Economist joke alert)

But, if you laid all the economists in the world end-to-end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion.

True, and i did say above that actual, statistical full employment is effectively impossible.

[RyeSloan]

..which, for most economists, represents "full employment".


(Economist joke alert)

But, if you laid all the economists in the world end-to-end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion.

Exactly...can't remember the quote but I'm sure there is a famous one from a US president who asked if there was any one handed economists available due to the fact he kept hearing "on one hand you could say this but on the other hand you could say that"

Joking aside though your point is pretty relevant...4% unemployment is considered as good as full employment as human nature and the job market dictates it's impossible for everyone to be employed all at the same time.

I'm with Southside on this one...there is a great danger of people mis understanding his how fortunate the vast majority of Scots are and that the current narrative being portrayed of the sky falling down because of Brexit / Tories etc really doesn't reflect that actual reality of it all.

Sure many things could be improved but there is also a hell of a lot of downside risk to Indy as well.

[RyeSloan]

Saddling kids with debt for wanting an education is a disgrace, IMO. We may as well ask for a contribution to schooling then. The cost is a national investment, and if graduates get a higher income as a result, they can re-pay it via progressive taxation. Tuition fees discriminates against those from poorer backgrounds; those with wealthy parents don't face any dilemma about whether to continue in education. A civilised society educates its kids free of charge.

It is of course nothing like 'free of charge'...the costs are simply borne by someone else.

There is a risk that providing so many services free at the point of use leads to significant mis allocation of those services. The seemingly huge rise in entry level jobs that now require Uni education when previously a good secondary schooling was enough maybe suggests that there is scope to revise just how Uni education is funded, how many people go and what they learn while they are there.

Personally I think the grant system seemed a better balance but I honestly know very little about higher education funding so wtfdik!

[Moulin Yarns]

3rd quarter. Edinburgh festivals in full swing. Go figure. Wonder what Q1 2017 will be.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

3rd quarter. Edinburgh festivals in full swing. Go figure. Wonder what Q1 2017 will be.

Come on mate, you are now arguing with your own FACT.

Maybe your own world view is just a bit more out of touch than you like to admit?

[ronaldo7]

I expect better from you bud. Reading party propaganda is no way to assess a parties record in government. I cannot think of anything they've achieved I would hold up as a reason to vote for them.

glory glory

In the beginning
Record funding for Scotland’s NHS, with the overall health budget at £13 billion in 2016 – over £3.3 billion more than when the SNP first took office.
Free, high quality childcare is increased to 16 hours a week for all 3 and 4 year olds – up from 12.5 hours in 2007, extended to 2 year olds from low income households too.
Employment at its highest ever level. Latest figures, 2,636,000 people in work.
Pupils are achieving more than ever with a reformed curriculum, record exam passes and 93% of school leavers now going on to work, training or education.
Council Tax frozen*saving the average Band D household £1,550 by April 2017.
1.3 million older and disabled people*benefit from free public transport through the National Concessionary Bus Travel Scheme – now extended to help disabled veterans.
Target to build 30,000*affordable homes exceeded, with an investment of £1.7 billion.
Free tuition maintained, saving students up to £27,000 compared to*England.
Jobs and businesses protected from recession by cutting business rates for almost 100,000 small and medium-sized businesses.
78,000 elderly benefit from access to a wide range of personal care without charge.
Recorded crime in Scotland has reached its lowest level in 41 years.
Free prescriptions protected, saving people with chronic conditions over £100 a year.
Road Equivalent Tariff rolled out to all ferry routes in the Clyde and Hebrides, cutting fares by around 40%.
178,000 low income households helped to buy essentials such as nappies, food and cookers through our Scottish Welfare Fund since it was established in 2013.
By keeping Scottish Water in public hands customers pay less for a better service – charges for the average household bill are £39 lower than in England and Wales.

A healthier Scotland*
Free prescriptions for all. (In England you pay £8.40 per item.)
The number of nurses, doctors and dentists working in Scotland’s NHS increased.
NHS staffing is at record levels, up more than 11,500 under the current government.
Scotland’s A&E services are the best performing in the UK.
95% of hospital day case and inpatients*seen within 12 weeks last year.
Healthcare kept*local. A&E units saved, children’s cancer*services and neurosurgery units protected, and maternity units kept open.
Over £5 billion*invested in Scotland’s health infrastructure since 2007, including the South Glasgow Hospitals and Emergency Care Centre in Aberdeen.
Pay rises for our NHS staff delivered.
Nursing staff up to £714 a year better off than their counterparts in England.
Hospitals*cleaner and safer. Cases of C. Diff and MRSA fall to lowest levels recorded.
Almost £40 million*invested to raise public awareness of cancer, and catch it earlier.
Risk of cervical cancer cut by providing HPV vaccine for girls in second year of school.
Scrapped parking charges at NHS-run hospital. Patients and staff save £25 million.
Highest number of GPs per head of the population in the UK; more practices are now open in the evenings and at weekends.
Scotland first country in the UK to have a mental health waiting times target.
Over £150 million invested next five years to improve mental health services.
2.2 million*registered with an NHS dentist than when the SNP took office.
98% of primary and secondary schools providing two hours of physical education a week – up from 10 per cent in 2005.
More funding provided to support carers and young carers; over 22,500 benefiting from the Short Breaks Fund.
Irresponsible alcohol discounts in supermarkets and off-licences banned.
Legal age for buying tobacco raised to 18.
Control of*social care services budget through the Self-Directed Support Act.
Extra funding for Scotland’s veteran charities,*ex-service men and women receive priority treatment in the NHS and other services.
Free childcare increased to 16 hours a week (from 12.5) for 3 and 4 year-olds. Also extended to 2 year-olds of low-income families.
Patient satisfaction levels are second-to-none.
£3.3 billion more given to our health system that when the SNP took office.

A smarter Scotland*
All children in primaries 1 to 3 – around 135,000 pupils –*benefiting from free school meals, saving families around £380 per child per year.
The £160 million Attainment Scotland Fund improves literacy, numeracy and health and well-being for children in over 300 primary schools in the most deprived areas.
Spending per pupil is significantly higher here than south of the border – 9% higher per pupil in primary at £4,899, 12% higher per pupil in secondary at £6,738.
Investment of £1.8 billion and 607 school projects delivered.
4,020 school children able to learn in dedicated Gaelic medium language classes.
The Disabled Students Allowance in Scotland protected and bursaries for students maintained, while the Tories*abolished both elsewhere in the UK.
Education Maintenance Allowance in Scotland* expanded–*scrapped in England – to support*57,000 school pupils and college students from low income families.
Over 119,000 full-time equivalent college places*provided – exceeding 2011 manifesto commitment to maintain 116,000 places.
£530 million invested in college estates and state-of-the-art buildings in Glasgow, Kilmarnock and Inverness – plus £140 million*for Fife and Forth Valley colleges.
Full-time college students*benefit from the highest bursary of anywhere in the UK.
A record numbers of Scots supported into university. Young people from deprived areas more likely to study at university.
The poorest university students living at home benefit from a minimum income guarantee of £7,625 per year – the highest in the UK.
More women entering universities are choosing to study science, technology, engineering and maths subjects. They make up 48% of those gaining degrees.
Free tuition protected saving students*£27,750 compared to England.
A 3-D printer given to every library in Scotland.

A wealthier Scotland
Scotland has the highest employment rate of the four nations in the UK, women and youth employment rates exceed those of the UK.
Typical pay in Scotland is now, for the first time, higher than in England.
The Scottish economy has seen three years of growth up to the third quarter of 2015.
186,855 young people took the opportunity to undertake a modern apprenticeship since 2007, and by 2020 a further 30,000 opportunities will be available every year.
Around 22,000 families supported to buy their own home through home ownership schemes – three quarters of them under the age of 35.
Councils*enabled to build new homes– 5,292 council houses built since 2011.
15,500 social houses for rent safeguarded by ending Right to Buy.
£500 million invested to stimulate conomic growth in Glasgow and the Clyde Valley.
£125 million allocated to Aberdeen to stimulate economic growth in the city, plus an additional £254 million for infrastructure projects in the North-east.
£60 million put towards a Town Centre Regeneration Fund.
£500 million spent on tackling fuel poverty, with one in three households helped to improve home energy efficiency.
Tax burden reduced on the sale of homes, with 93% of house buyers paying less than under UK stamp duty land tax or paying no tax at all.
The number of private sector businesses in Scotland at 361,345, the highest number recorded –*productivity is up 4.4% compared to 0.2 per cent in the UK.
International exports increased by 36%. (2007 to 2014) £20.3 billion to £27.5 billion.
Tourism healthier with 15.5 million tourists visiting* in the year to September 2015.
Enterprise and development spending per head in Scotland is double that of the UK, and spending on research and development has increased by 44% since 2007.

A fairer Scotland*****
More than 80% of Scots paid the Living Wage of £8.25 an hour. Scotland offers highest proportion of workers in UK at least a living wage.
In 2011,*the first government in the UK to pay the Living Wage to our staff.
Poverty levels*down.*260,000 fewer people in poverty in 2014 than in 2000.
Invested £90 million to ensure that no-one in Scotland has to pay the Bedroom Tax, protecting up to 72,000 households from threat of eviction or becoming homeless.
Over half a million vulnerable households – including over 200,000 pensioners and 86,000 single parents – protected from UK Government cuts to Council Tax support.
Almost 3,000 disabled people supported through the Independent Living Fund Scotland, set up after the UK Government scrapped its support.
Over 200 companies signed the Scottish Business Pledge*to boost productivity and increase diversity.
54,000 new affordable homes built, and counting.
Number of days lost to industrial disputes down 84%, the lowest of any UK country.
Encouraging public, third, private sector companies to boardroom gender equality.
Nicola Sturgeon appointed first cabinet with an equal number of women and men.
Scotland is leading light on LGBTI equality, with*progressive equal marriage laws.
Over £75 million has been spent since 2007 to help some of the world’s poorest and most vulnerable people.

[ronaldo7]

A safer Scotland*
Violent crime down 55%, homicides 51%,*weapons/knife crime two-thirds.
£216 million invested in the creation of the new national police service.
The new Scottish Crime Campus provides a focal point for excellence in intelligence-sharing, evidence gathering and forensic science to tackle serious organised crime.
Since 2007, 1,000 more police officers keeping our communities safe. By contrast, police numbers south of the border have fallen to their lowest level in 15 years.
Automatic early release*ended: long-term prisoners will serve their sentence in full.
Reconviction rate reduced to its lowest level in 16 years.
£75 million seized from criminals reinvested in community projects for the young.
HMP Grampian opened in March 2014 and HMP Low Moss opened*in*March 2012, two major parts of the prison building programme.
Access to air weapons tightened.
A record £33 million invested to tackle domestic violence against women and girls.
Access to justice for survivors of domestic abuse improved too.
Tackling sectarianism backed up with record investment.
The new Scottish Fire and Rescue Service created.
Scotland has the UK’s first national action plan on human rights.

Investing for the future*
£1 billion invested annually in public and sustainable transport to encourage people out of cars. Spending for safer walking and cycling at a record high.
Scottish Steel,*Ferguson Shipyard, and the last remaining UK aluminium smelter in Lochabar – all saved.
The £1.4 billion Queensferry Crossing is on time and on budget.
Tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges abolished, commuters continue to save £184 a year crossing the Tay, £207 a year on crossing the Forth.
Borders Railway reopened, longest domestic railway*built in Britain in over 100 years.
£742 million Edinburgh-Glasgow rail improvements; widespread electrification of the network between the two cities, and to Stirling and Dunblane.
£3 billion to create 80 miles of dual carriageway on the A9 Perth-Inverness, £745 million to Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route, plus M8, M73 and M74 motorway.
£170 million Aberdeen Inverness rail upgrade; new stations at Dalcross and Kintore.
Contracts worth £97 million will protect the 150-strong workforce and create 100 new jobs at the last commercial shipyard on the Clyde.
Prestwick Airport saved*from closure, safeguarding around 1,350 jobs.
£500 million a year to deliver higher water quality, better environmental protection, and better service*for customers. Scottish Water now UK’s most trusted utility.
£400 million to deliver superfast broadband to 95 per cent of properties across Scotland by the end of 2017.
Negotiating the renaissance of the UK’s only aluminium smelter in Lochaber, Fort William, creating over 600 new jobs, half in the smelter, half in services.

Empowering communities
The independence referendum was the biggest democratic exercise in our history.
The voting age for Scottish Parliament and local government elections permanently lowered to 16, starting from May 2016.
Fighting for LGBTI rights, plus secured best equal marriage laws in the world.
Local communities given a voice – backed up with £20 million funding – in the planning and delivery of local services through the Community Empowerment Act.
£9 million Scottish Land Fund*helped 52 communities across the country purchase land. Over 500,000 acres is now in community ownership – benefiting 71,000 people.
The ambitious Land Reform Bill introduced to transform rules around the ownership, accessibility and benefits of land in Scotland. More reforms to come.

A greener Scotland*
Renewable electricity output more than doubled since 2007, with renewables largest contributor to electricity generation in Scotland.
Our target to reduce energy consumption by 12% by 2020 exceeded, a 13.3% reduction between 2006 and 2013.
Scotland is on target to deliver world-leading climate reduction of greenhouse gas emissions by 42% by 2020.
Moratorium on underground coal gasification and fracking.
Household recycling at its highest ever levels. 43% of household waste recycled.
Carrier bag use reduced by 80%. Bag charge raised nearly £7 million for good causes.
Investment in flood defences and new measures in the Flooding Act.
Scotland was one of the first countries in the world to sign up to the UN Sustainable Development Goals; established the world’s first Climate Justice Fund.
Scotland became the world’s second Fair Trade Nation in 2013.

Supporting rural communities
A record £1 billion invested in vessels, ports and ferry services since 2007 as part of a commitment to the islands and remote communities.
Residents of Caithness and north-west Sutherland, Colonsay, Islay, Jura, Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles are eligible for a 50% discount on air fares.
Created a key role in reforming EU fisheries policy to bring an end to the wasteful discarding of fish at sea.
With food and drink exports valued over £5 billion, and*new jobs created in the sector by 2020, continued support to promote Scotland’s top quality produce.
Fares on ferry services*frozen until 2017 for passengers, cars, commercial vehicles.
Opting out of cultivation of genetically modified crops in Scotland.
Scotland’s first National Marine Plan to achieve sustainable development of our seas.

Enabling creativity and sport*
Free access maintained to museums and galleries, with 27 million visits to Scotland’s world class national collections since 2007.
Government*provided support for Scotland to welcome the world in 2014, with the staging of the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles and the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow.
£162 million pumped into Scotland’s screen sector since 2007.
£130 million invested in our cultural infrastructure – including revamped National Museum of Scotland, National Portrait Gallery, the palace at Stirling Castle.
£16 million direct investment in Edinburgh’s 12 major festivals since 2008.
£25 million for the Victoria and Albert Museum of Design in Dundee.
The new Bannockburn visitor centre which opened in February 2014, and the creation of the Robert Burns Birthplace Museum in Ayrshire which opened in December 2010.
1.5 million opportunities created for young people to take part in youth arts in 2015.

More still to do, but we're getting there. We could always just return our money to Westminster when we run out of ideas eh:aok:

Surely, their must be something in there for you.:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

According to the unquestionable GERS, GERW and NICVA figures..... 16% of the UK population makes up nearly 60% of the UKs annual deficit.... :hmmm:

I've seen this doing the twitter rounds.

Unfortunately, it's a load of bollocks from people that can't do arithmetic. :wink:

In the figures highlighted, London and the SE make a large surplus, thus the rest of the country has way more than 100% of the deficit to play with. Grossly oversimplified example:

Scotland - £10 deficit
N Eng - £20 deficit
London - £20 surplus
Wales - £10 deficit
Mid Eng - £20 deficit
SE Eng - £10 surplus
SW Eng - £10 deficit

Total deficit £40

Scot 25% of deficit shock!

See what I mean?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A safer Scotland*
Violent crime down 55%, homicides 51%,*weapons/knife crime two-thirds.
£216 million invested in the creation of the new national police service.
The new Scottish Crime Campus provides a focal point for excellence in intelligence-sharing, evidence gathering and forensic science to tackle serious organised crime.
Since 2007, 1,000 more police officers keeping our communities safe. By contrast, police numbers south of the border have fallen to their lowest level in 15 years.
Automatic early release*ended: long-term prisoners will serve their sentence in full.
Reconviction rate reduced to its lowest level in 16 years.
£75 million seized from criminals reinvested in community projects for the young.
HMP Grampian opened in March 2014 and HMP Low Moss opened*in*March 2012, two major parts of the prison building programme.
Access to air weapons tightened.
A record £33 million invested to tackle domestic violence against women and girls.
Access to justice for survivors of domestic abuse improved too.
Tackling sectarianism backed up with record investment.
The new Scottish Fire and Rescue Service created.
Scotland has the UK’s first national action plan on human rights.

Investing for the future*
£1 billion invested annually in public and sustainable transport to encourage people out of cars. Spending for safer walking and cycling at a record high.
Scottish Steel,*Ferguson Shipyard, and the last remaining UK aluminium smelter in Lochabar – all saved.
The £1.4 billion Queensferry Crossing is on time and on budget.
Tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges abolished, commuters continue to save £184 a year crossing the Tay, £207 a year on crossing the Forth.
Borders Railway reopened, longest domestic railway*built in Britain in over 100 years.
£742 million Edinburgh-Glasgow rail improvements; widespread electrification of the network between the two cities, and to Stirling and Dunblane.
£3 billion to create 80 miles of dual carriageway on the A9 Perth-Inverness, £745 million to Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route, plus M8, M73 and M74 motorway.
£170 million Aberdeen Inverness rail upgrade; new stations at Dalcross and Kintore.
Contracts worth £97 million will protect the 150-strong workforce and create 100 new jobs at the last commercial shipyard on the Clyde.
Prestwick Airport saved*from closure, safeguarding around 1,350 jobs.
£500 million a year to deliver higher water quality, better environmental protection, and better service*for customers. Scottish Water now UK’s most trusted utility.
£400 million to deliver superfast broadband to 95 per cent of properties across Scotland by the end of 2017.
Negotiating the renaissance of the UK’s only aluminium smelter in Lochaber, Fort William, creating over 600 new jobs, half in the smelter, half in services.

Empowering communities
The independence referendum was the biggest democratic exercise in our history.
The voting age for Scottish Parliament and local government elections permanently lowered to 16, starting from May 2016.
Fighting for LGBTI rights, plus secured best equal marriage laws in the world.
Local communities given a voice – backed up with £20 million funding – in the planning and delivery of local services through the Community Empowerment Act.
£9 million Scottish Land Fund*helped 52 communities across the country purchase land. Over 500,000 acres is now in community ownership – benefiting 71,000 people.
The ambitious Land Reform Bill introduced to transform rules around the ownership, accessibility and benefits of land in Scotland. More reforms to come.

A greener Scotland*
Renewable electricity output more than doubled since 2007, with renewables largest contributor to electricity generation in Scotland.
Our target to reduce energy consumption by 12% by 2020 exceeded, a 13.3% reduction between 2006 and 2013.
Scotland is on target to deliver world-leading climate reduction of greenhouse gas emissions by 42% by 2020.
Moratorium on underground coal gasification and fracking.
Household recycling at its highest ever levels. 43% of household waste recycled.
Carrier bag use reduced by 80%. Bag charge raised nearly £7 million for good causes.
Investment in flood defences and new measures in the Flooding Act.
Scotland was one of the first countries in the world to sign up to the UN Sustainable Development Goals; established the world’s first Climate Justice Fund.
Scotland became the world’s second Fair Trade Nation in 2013.

Supporting rural communities
A record £1 billion invested in vessels, ports and ferry services since 2007 as part of a commitment to the islands and remote communities.
Residents of Caithness and north-west Sutherland, Colonsay, Islay, Jura, Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles are eligible for a 50% discount on air fares.
Created a key role in reforming EU fisheries policy to bring an end to the wasteful discarding of fish at sea.
With food and drink exports valued over £5 billion, and*new jobs created in the sector by 2020, continued support to promote Scotland’s top quality produce.
Fares on ferry services*frozen until 2017 for passengers, cars, commercial vehicles.
Opting out of cultivation of genetically modified crops in Scotland.
Scotland’s first National Marine Plan to achieve sustainable development of our seas.

Enabling creativity and sport*
Free access maintained to museums and galleries, with 27 million visits to Scotland’s world class national collections since 2007.
Government*provided support for Scotland to welcome the world in 2014, with the staging of the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles and the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow.
£162 million pumped into Scotland’s screen sector since 2007.
£130 million invested in our cultural infrastructure – including revamped National Museum of Scotland, National Portrait Gallery, the palace at Stirling Castle.
£16 million direct investment in Edinburgh’s 12 major festivals since 2008.
£25 million for the Victoria and Albert Museum of Design in Dundee.
The new Bannockburn visitor centre which opened in February 2014, and the creation of the Robert Burns Birthplace Museum in Ayrshire which opened in December 2010.
1.5 million opportunities created for young people to take part in youth arts in 2015.

More still to do, but we're getting there. We could always just return our money to Westminster when we run out of ideas eh:aok:

Surely, their must be something in there for you.:greengrin

Yeah, and political parties never lie!

[beensaidbefore]

And that's when we have opt outs in numerous areas of EU legislation. I really do fear we'll move even more towards the American model post-Brexit. Would a Tory government legislate to protect workers? If it were up to them, we still wouldn't have a minimum wage. They opted out of the social charter at Maastricht all those years ago.

Minimum wage isn't always a good thing imo. There are many opportunities where people could be trained to do. Job by letting the get first hand experience in role. This is now virtually impossible as people doing a job either have to be paid nothing, or all of the minimum wage. Having a system M where people could be paid a nominal fee when they are training, say on day release from prison, or students on long term placements, would be better for a lot of people imo. Would have been better for me to have been paid 2 pound an hour rather than nothing when I had to work for 5 months 40 hours a week and then had to hold a part time job to support myself.

[Slavoj Zizek]

Free Higher education Free care for the elderly Free prescriptions Free bus travel for the over 60s (although that was maybe Labour) Scrapping bridge tolls. Council Tax freeze Same-sex marriage That's a decent list to start with. Whether you agree with them or not, they have all had a major effect on the lives of large parts of the population. All things introduced by the evil Lib/Lab coalition. #JustSaying

[RyeSloan]

All things introduced by the evil Lib/Lab coalition. #JustSaying

Tsk tsk they didn't scrap the bridge tolls!

[bigwheel]

Tsk tsk they didn't scrap the bridge tolls!

nor prescription charges...

[Hibernia&Alba]

Minimum wage isn't always a good thing imo. There are many opportunities where people could be trained to do. Job by letting the get first hand experience in role. This is now virtually impossible as people doing a job either have to be paid nothing, or all of the minimum wage. Having a system M where people could be paid a nominal fee when they are training, say on day release from prison, or students on long term placements, would be better for a lot of people imo. Would have been better for me to have been paid 2 pound an hour rather than nothing when I had to work for 5 months 40 hours a week and then had to hold a part time job to support myself.

Minimum wage is always a good thing, IMO. It isn't right that employers can pay a lower rate to young people under 25 for doing the same job. That's discrimination.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It is of course nothing like 'free of charge'...the costs are simply borne by someone else.

There is a risk that providing so many services free at the point of use leads to significant mis allocation of those services. The seemingly huge rise in entry level jobs that now require Uni education when previously a good secondary schooling was enough maybe suggests that there is scope to revise just how Uni education is funded, how many people go and what they learn while they are there.

Personally I think the grant system seemed a better balance but I honestly know very little about higher education funding so wtfdik!

Free at the point of delivery, and to be re-paid back into society if and when earnings allow via progressive taxation. The grant system was an additional payment for living expenses, EXTRA to having tuition fees paid. Therefore students in England have been hit with a double whammy of no grants and fees to pay. It's a bizarre society that can find £100 billion for nuclear submarines but says there's no money to educate kids at university. I remember how Tony Benn used to lament that no government has ever said it can't fight a war because there's no money; they find the money. As he used to say, "if we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people".

[ronaldo7]

Yeah, and political parties never lie!

I'm quite sure you don't mind paying a little more from your vast resources. It's all about helping others as well as yourself, and what type of country we all want to live in. Thanks.

[Glory Lurker]

All things introduced by the evil Lib/Lab coalition. #JustSaying

Eh? Elderly care and Bus pass maybe, but the rest????

[northstandhibby]

Minimum wage isn't always a good thing imo. There are many opportunities where people could be trained to do. Job by letting the get first hand experience in role. This is now virtually impossible as people doing a job either have to be paid nothing, or all of the minimum wage. Having a system M where people could be paid a nominal fee when they are training, say on day release from prison, or students on long term placements, would be better for a lot of people imo. Would have been better for me to have been paid 2 pound an hour rather than nothing when I had to work for 5 months 40 hours a week and then had to hold a part time job to support myself.

Some folk I know would never have got a job if it hadn't been for the YTS (Youth Training Scheme). They ended up as brickies and joiners etc etc and never looked back.

glory glory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm quite sure you don't mind paying a little more from your vast resources. It's all about helping others as well as yourself, and what type of country we all want to live in. Thanks.

I already do via our 'progressive' taxation system.

So how much is enough? And what is it getting? And at what point does it start becoming a punishment, or a tax on aspiration? And when is it enough?

Geniunr questions, i get prpgressive taxation, but people ahouldnt lose sight of the fact that it is other peoples money rhat they are busy spending. Its easy when someone else pays eh?

How much of your monthly income would you be willing to give up extra?

Thats my concern with the SNP and all this talk of 'equality'. Levelling downwards is not progressive, it is punative. What is the point in having a great education system if those who take advantage of it are then punished for doing so?

[johnbc70]

I already do via our 'progressive' taxation system.

So how much is enough? And what is it getting? And at what point does it start becoming a punishment, or a tax on aspiration? And when is it enough?

Geniunr questions, i get prpgressive taxation, but people ahouldnt lose sight of the fact that it is other peoples money rhat they are busy spending. Its easy when someone else pays eh?

How much of your monthly income would you be willing to give up extra?

Thats my concern with the SNP and all this talk of 'equality'. Levelling downwards is not progressive, it is punative. What is the point in having a great education system if those who take advantage of it are then punished for doing so?

Excellent points. The more you earn the more you pay in tax, even more so in Scotland now with the change in higher rate tax bands.

Hope you get the answers you deserve.

[makaveli1875]

I already do via our 'progressive' taxation system.

So how much is enough? And what is it getting? And at what point does it start becoming a punishment, or a tax on aspiration? And when is it enough?

Geniunr questions, i get prpgressive taxation, but people ahouldnt lose sight of the fact that it is other peoples money rhat they are busy spending. Its easy when someone else pays eh?

How much of your monthly income would you be willing to give up extra?

Thats my concern with the SNP and all this talk of 'equality'. Levelling downwards is not progressive, it is punative. What is the point in having a great education system if those who take advantage of it are then punished for doing so?

i get where your coming from , the people that have never done a days work in their life and have no desire to work but are happy to sit back with the feet up watching jeremy kyle on a £2000 telly that was paid for off the back of our hard work

[Hibernia&Alba]

I already do via our 'progressive' taxation system.

So how much is enough? And what is it getting? And at what point does it start becoming a punishment, or a tax on aspiration? And when is it enough?

Geniunr questions, i get prpgressive taxation, but people ahouldnt lose sight of the fact that it is other peoples money rhat they are busy spending. Its easy when someone else pays eh?

How much of your monthly income would you be willing to give up extra?

Thats my concern with the SNP and all this talk of 'equality'. Levelling downwards is not progressive, it is punative. What is the point in having a great education system if those who take advantage of it are then punished for doing so?

You can argue the rates and the income at which they should kick in, but income tax on the very rich (when they even pay the going rate) is far too low, IMO. There are people earning millions or tens of millions per annum who aren't pulling their weight, whilst those surviving on welfare, for example, have been kicked from pillar to post for a crisis almost a decade ago that they didn't create. Surely a marginal rate for those earning seven figures every year of 80-85 per cent is reasonable? Nobody could argue it would lead to hardship for those earning over a million pounds per year - the EPL footballers and their ilk.

[johnbc70]

i get where your coming from , the people that have never done a days work in their life and have no desire to work but are happy to sit back with the feet up watching jeremy kyle on a £2000 telly that was paid for off the back of our hard work

I like this quote from Benjamin Franklin.

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

[johnbc70]

You can argue the rates and the income at which they should kick in, but income tax on the very rich (when they even pay the going rate) is far too low, IMO. There are people earning millions or tens of millions per annum who aren't pulling their weight, whilst those surviving on welfare, for example, have been kicked from pillar to post for a crisis almost a decade ago that they didn't create. Surely a marginal rate for those earning seven figures every year of 80-85 per cent is reasonable? Nobody could argue it would lead to hardship for those earning over a million pounds per year - the EPL footballers and their ilk.

I am sure the analysis shows increased taxation of people who earn over £1M actually has very little impact. I can't imagine there are actually that many people in Scotland earning more than £1M.

[northstandhibby]

You can argue the rates and the income at which they should kick in, but income tax on the very rich (when they even pay the going rate) is far too low, IMO. There are people earning millions or tens of millions per annum who aren't pulling their weight, whilst those surviving on welfare, for example, have been kicked from pillar to post for a crisis almost a decade ago that they didn't create. Surely a marginal rate for those earning seven figures every year of 80-85 per cent is reasonable? Nobody could argue it would lead to hardship for those earning over a million pounds per year - the EPL footballers and their ilk.

I understand your sentiment bud but you would chase these talented footballers out to play in a country that taxed them less whereby chasing away tv money etc etc. Have to attract money not chase it away.

glory glory

[Hibernia&Alba]

I am sure the analysis shows taxing people who earn over £1M actually has very little impact. I can't imagine there are actually that many people in Scotland earning more than £1M.

True, but I was citing the example of how those at the very top are no longer expected to pay their share under neoliberalism. In fact the concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands is positively encouraged. Those earning several times the national average could be asked to contribute a little more and would still enjoy a better quality of life than 99 per cent of the people on the planet. If we want free health care, free education, a welfare state that is consistent with human dignity etc we need to fund it. At the moment we have a system where nobody pays more than 45 per cent marginal rate regardless of income. That isn't acceptable to me.

[beensaidbefore]

Minimum wage is always a good thing, IMO. It isn't right that employers can pay a lower rate to young people under 25 for doing the same job. That's discrimination.

I agree with that, but some people who are training or on an intern type thing don't get paid because if you pay someone you should pay them a full minimum wage. Before the minimum wage employers could have given them a nominal amount as a way of helping out.

There was talk of giving unemployed people the chance to do work experience to get skills, but I think the argument was that unless they were given the equivalent of the minimum wage it would be unfair. I can sorta see the point, but surely that is a bit of a stumbling block for people who are looking to learn some new work experience and skills?

[beensaidbefore]

You can argue the rates and the income at which they should kick in, but income tax on the very rich (when they even pay the going rate) is far too low, IMO. There are people earning millions or tens of millions per annum who aren't pulling their weight, whilst those surviving on welfare, for example, have been kicked from pillar to post for a crisis almost a decade ago that they didn't create. Surely a marginal rate for those earning seven figures every year of 80-85 per cent is reasonable? Nobody could argue it would lead to hardship for those earning over a million pounds per year - the EPL footballers and their ilk.

Why not tax everyone 50% and make childcare free for everyone. Would save families and cost the single workers. Most people would get their turn eventually so nobody really misses out. Bit is a shutter if you have grown up kids, but perhaps some arrangement could be come to with those folk.

[ronaldo7]

I already do via our 'progressive' taxation system.

So how much is enough? And what is it getting? And at what point does it start becoming a punishment, or a tax on aspiration? And when is it enough?

Geniunr questions, i get prpgressive taxation, but people ahouldnt lose sight of the fact that it is other peoples money rhat they are busy spending. Its easy when someone else pays eh?

How much of your monthly income would you be willing to give up extra?

Thats my concern with the SNP and all this talk of 'equality'. Levelling downwards is not progressive, it is punative. What is the point in having a great education system if those who take advantage of it are then punished for doing so?

I think the levels of taxation at the moment are just about right, and as you've alluded to our progressive tax system, we must be doing something right, although I would envisage more to be placed on those with the biggest shoulders. Pooling, and sharing and all that.

I'm paying a fair share of my tax towards the exchequer at the moment, however, if/when we become Independent, I'm willing to pay some more to help those less fortunate than myself.

Would you rather it was squirrelled away in Panama or an off shore account?

[beensaidbefore]

I like this quote from Benjamin Franklin.

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

Something in that I think.

[northstandhibby]

I think the levels of taxation at the moment are just about right, and as you've alluded to our progressive tax system, we must be doing something right, although I would envisage more to be placed on those with the biggest shoulders. Pooling, and sharing and all that.

I'm paying a fair share of my tax towards the exchequer at the moment, however, if when we become Independent, I'm willing to pay some more to help those less fortunate than myself.

Would you rather it was squirrelled away in Panama or an off shore account?

Higher taxation's not the answer. Its 'fair' taxation that's required with low to moderate corporation tax to attract companies to produce here employing folk who in turn spend money in the surrounding communities. The more disposable income folk have to spend also supports communities and employs more folk who in turn pay fair taxes. High taxation can strangle the life out of business and communities.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Higher taxation's not the answer. Its 'fair' taxation that's required with low to moderate corporation tax to attract companies to produce here employing folk who in turn spend money in the surrounding communities. The more disposable income folk have to spend also supports communities and employs more folk who in turn pay fair taxes. High taxation can strangle the life out of business and communities.

glory glory

Can't argue with most of that, however those with the broadest shoulders should lift the heavier weights. We have to pool and share our resources to allow a more socially cohesive country to get along.

We can't have people burning £50 notes in front of the homeless can we.

[RyeSloan]

True, but I was citing the example of how those at the very top are no longer expected to pay their share under neoliberalism. In fact the concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands is positively encouraged. Those earning several times the national average could be asked to contribute a little more and would still enjoy a better quality of life than 99 per cent of the people on the planet. If we want free health care, free education, a welfare state that is consistent with human dignity etc we need to fund it. At the moment we have a system where nobody pays more than 45 per cent marginal rate regardless of income. That isn't acceptable to me.

I see where you are coming from but effectively you are saying that you want this small section of society to pay for the rest even more than they do already.

From a report on the 2016 UK budget:

The Institute for Fiscal Studies said that the proportion of working-age adults who do not pay income tax has risen from 34.3 per cent to 43.8 per cent, equivalent to 23million people.

Over the same period the amount of income tax paid by the richest 1 per cent has risen from 24.4 per cent to 27.5 per cent, meaning that 300,000 people pay more than a quarter of the nation's income tax.


The numbers of these people in Scotland is vanishingly small...only about 18,000 pay the 45% tax rate. A plan to soak them to pay more for the huge number that don't any tax doesn't look very sustainable no matter whether you think that is the right thing to do or not.

As it is Scotland has the ability to do exactly what you are suggesting already does it not?

[northstandhibby]

Can't argue with most of that, however those with the broadest shoulders should lift the heavier weights. We have to pool and share our resources to allow a more socially cohesive country to get along.

We can't have people burning £50 notes in front of the homeless can we.

Classless.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Classless.

glory glory

I know it is, that's why he shouldn't have done it.:wink:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Higher taxation's not the answer. Its 'fair' taxation that's required with low to moderate corporation tax to attract companies to produce here employing folk who in turn spend money in the surrounding communities. The more disposable income folk have to spend also supports communities and employs more folk who in turn pay fair taxes. High taxation can strangle the life out of business and communities.

glory glory

So why hasn't 'high taxation' strangled the life out of Sweden and Germany, for example? And why didn't is strangle the life out of America between 1935 and 1975, when they experienced the fastest economic expansion in human history? The post war boom and full employment in Britain was achieved with high taxation. The trickledown theory of neoliberalism has proved not to work; instead you getting massive inequality at the top and the majority either treading water or going backwards.

[northstandhibby]

I know it is, that's why he shouldn't have done it.:wink:

I knew you were talking about classless toffs from either the bullindon club or cambridge somewhere. I didn't think it was you.

:greengrin

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

So why hasn't 'high taxation' strangled the life out of Sweden and Germany, for example? And why didn't is strangle the life out of America between 1935 and 1975, when they experienced the fastest economic expansion in human history? The post war boom and full employment in Britain was achieved with high taxation. The trickledown theory of neoliberalism has proved not to work; instead you getting massive inequality at the top and the majority either treading water or going backwards.

I think it might be good for you to stop reading archaic books from aeons ago that were probably written in very different economic circumstances. The worlds moved on and is very competitive now and we have to attract investment and jobs.

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

I knew you were talking about classless toffs from either the bullindon club or cambridge somewhere. I didn't think it was you.

:greengrin

glory glory

I gave my last £50 to Charity.:wink:

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think it might be good for you to stop reading archaic books from aeons ago that were probably written in very different economic circumstances. The worlds moved on and is very competitive now and we have to attract investment and jobs.

glory glory

The world hasn't really moved on: there remains the fundamental divide between those who own capital and those who sell their labour. Employers want to buy labour for the lowest possible price, in order to maximise profit. Globalisation is but the latest rationale for neoliberalism - the race to the bottom. The question we must ask ourselves is do we accept there is no alternative, or do we challenge it?

[northstandhibby]

The world hasn't really moved on: there remains the fundamental divide between those who own capital and those who sell their labour. Employers want to buy labour for the lowest possible price, in order to maximise profit. Globalisation is but the latest rationale for neoliberalism - the race to the bottom. The question we must ask ourselves is do we accept there is no alternative, or do we challenge it?

An interesting concept. How would you challenge it and what outcome are you aiming for?

glory glory

[Hibrandenburg]

Why not tax everyone 50% and make childcare free for everyone. Would save families and cost the single workers. Most people would get their turn eventually so nobody really misses out. Bit is a shutter if you have grown up kids, but perhaps some arrangement could be come to with those folk.

That's the difference between the Scandinavian model of Social Democracy and what we have in the UK. People tend to vote for what's better for the society they live in rather than their own egotistical wants.

[northstandhibby]

That's the difference between the Scandinavian model of Social Democracy and what we have in the UK. People tend to vote for what's better for the society they live in rather than their own egotistical wants.

I think the vast majority of folk are just about getting by with bills ever rising, price increases, house prices only ever going upwards, car insurance rocketing etc etc etc. Most folk don't really have egotistical wants its necessity that drives them.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

nor prescription charges...
Nor same sex marriage

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[McD]

Why not tax everyone 50% and make childcare free for everyone. Would save families and cost the single workers. Most people would get their turn eventually so nobody really misses out. Bit is a shutter if you have grown up kids, but perhaps some arrangement could be come to with those folk.


What of those who who are unable to have children? Bit of a kick in the teeth to be told you've to pay significantly more tax for something you can never experience?

Why should a single person pay for a service they won't be able to use?

bus passes, education, health care, etc are all things that most people will make use of at some point. Childcare is not the same case (I have multiple family members who work in this industry).

most importantly, taxing Someone earning 100k at 50% tax is one thing, taxing another earning 20k at the same rate is something else entirely. It's absolutely not a fair and balanced way to approach taxation.


I'm all for everyone paying their fair share, this doesn't seem it though.


Equally, I'm not sure taxing a higher earning bracket at 80+% would work either, what's the incentive for someone to work to achieve that kind of salary if they'll be giving most of it up? What I think would happen in this scenario is that whatever the lower bracket looks like, let's say 40k, is that people will be happy to hold themselves at that level and never look to progress, potentially leaving a vacuum at upper levels of business in years to come, and also end up with businesses looking to reward their employees in other ways that don't affect their tax contributions/take home wage.
and I say that not as someone anywhere near that kind of wage.

[northstandhibby]

Nor same sex marriage

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

That for me has to be one of the most progressive acts our government has carried out in many a long year. One of the most discriminated groups in society over a very long period of time to be afforded rightful equality is a proud achievement our society should thoroughly welcome.

glory glory

[Hibrandenburg]

I think the vast majority of folk are just about getting by with bills ever rising, price increases, house prices only ever going upwards, car insurance rocketing etc etc etc. Most folk don't really have egotistical wants its necessity that drives them.

glory glory

That's the price when you have a system that alternately grants power to polarised parties. If the middle ground is the constant then everybody wins in the long term instead of some in the short.

[northstandhibby]

That's the price when you have a system that alternately grants power to polarised parties. If the middle ground is the constant then everybody wins in the long term instead of some in the short.

I'm all for the middle ground and long term strategies over short term populism.

:thumbsup:

glory glory

[Jack]

bus passes, education, health care, etc are all things that most people will make use of at some point. Childcare is not the same case (I have multiple family members who work in this industry).



What about those who don't reach 60 and don't get a bus pass?

Some things we do as a society we do because as a society it's the right thing to do.

Using the childcare example above I think would be a plan. Society needs children as adults for the future to maintain our society. I think it's fair we all contribute towards that future. Who's going to wipe the bottoms of the singletons when they reach old age for example?

I'm not sure I'd agree with the proposed funding plan though :-)

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm all for the middle ground and long term strategies over short term populism.

:thumbsup:

glory glory

You'll never find it in the UK. New Labour tried but it only made the gulf in our society wider.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You'll never find it in the UK. New Labour tried but it only made the gulf in our society wider.

Im always curious when i hear about the gulf betwern 'rich and poor' widening.

Surely that is an invitable consequence of lifting people oit of poverty?

For example, if 25% of society is 'poor', 50% 'middle' and 25% 'rich', if you lift the wealthiest 10% of the 'poor' into an expanded middle, would that not mean that the gulf between rich and poor would have increased, but society as a whole would be bettet off?

I dont know if this is the case, i have just always wondered?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm quite sure you don't mind paying a little more from your vast resources. It's all about helping others as well as yourself, and what type of country we all want to live in. Thanks.

I admire your commitment to your party and your enthusiasm for independence, genuinely.

But i habe always beem struck by two books i read, ome by john McCormick and one by ian hamilton. Both great figures in scottish nationalism.

I dont habe the exact quotes to hand, but to paraphrase, they both felt loyalty to a party was misplaced and not something they believed in.

The SNP believe in independence, that is their starting point. They then find, and create arguments to support that goal.

I would say many of the indy sceptics on here are not coming from an ideological background, but a pragmatic one. I am absolutely not some flag waving british nationalist.

I think going with the evidence is a better way to approach life than blind loyalty to a party, who all have their own self interest first and foremost in their minds.

[Moulin Yarns]

Im always curious when i hear about the gulf betwern 'rich and poor' widening.

Surely that is an invitable consequence of lifting people oit of poverty?

For example, if 25% of society is 'poor', 50% 'middle' and 25% 'rich', if you lift the wealthiest 10% of the 'poor' into an expanded middle, would that not mean that the gulf between rich and poor would have increased, but society as a whole would be bettet off?

I dont know if this is the case, i have just always wondered?


Some links to help you answer your question. It certainly isn't as simple as you think.

https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-divided-decade-the-rich-are-64-richer-than-before-the-recession-while-the-poor-are-57-10097038.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37341095

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/gap_between_rich_and_poor_in_britain_in_2016_is_wi dening_daily_1_4571169

[ronaldo7]

I admire your commitment to your party and your enthusiasm for independence, genuinely.

But i habe always beem struck by two books i read, ome by john McCormick and one by ian hamilton. Both great figures in scottish nationalism.

I dont habe the exact quotes to hand, but to paraphrase, they both felt loyalty to a party was misplaced and not something they believed in.

The SNP believe in independence, that is their starting point. They then find, and create arguments to support that goal.

I would say many of the indy sceptics on here are not coming from an ideological background, but a pragmatic one. I am absolutely not some flag waving british nationalist.

I think going with the evidence is a better way to approach life than blind loyalty to a party, who all have their own self interest first and foremost in their minds.

Thanks for that. Independence first, party second, however I don't think I'll achieve the first without the second if you get my drift.

I'd say the SNP have been a competent Government from their time in office, most of which was when I was not a member.:greengrin

I'll have to disagree with your point re the Indy sceptics though. British Nationalism comes through loud and clear, on this thread, and many others. It's the Union at any cost for some, not all.

I'm all for evidence based analysis, and how we should move forward. You only need to look at the current topic on our economy and the GERS figures to see that we don't get a true reflection of how we would do things differently, and prioritise differently in an Independent Scotland.

[northstandhibby]

Thanks for that. Independence first, party second, however I don't think I'll achieve the first without the second if you get my drift.

I'd say the SNP have been a competent Government from their time in office, most of which was when I was not a member.:greengrin

I'll have to disagree with your point re the Indy sceptics though. British Nationalism comes through loud and clear, on this thread, and many others. It's the Union at any cost for some, not all.

I'm all for evidence based analysis, and how we should move forward. You only need to look at the current topic on our economy and the GERS figures to see that we don't get a true reflection of how we would do things differently, and prioritise differently in an Independent Scotland.

There's bound to be financial disruption and a lower standard of living due to divorcing from the rest of the UK in the event of independence occurring.

Lets be honest now.

The message the SNP and its supporters should be preaching is 'things will get better'. Being honest with the good folk of Scotland with stating we may suffer in the short to medium term but it will undoubtedly improve in the longer term would strengthen their arguments. Give visionary speeches and forget about arguing about items like GERS figures which the ordinary folk won't take a bit of notice of.

They need someone of stature and vision.

glory glory

[speedy_gonzales]

Student debt and the elderly being forced to sell their homes to get residential care is a scandal in England, but they seem happy with it.



I'm quite sure you don't mind paying a little more from your vast resources. It's all about helping others as well as yourself, and what type of country we all want to live in. Thanks.

Just a tiny issue within a greater discussion, and probably worthy of its own thread, but why does it seem we want to live in a caring sharing society where there's a collective contribution to services but we baulk at the thought of using our own finances to make things comfortable in our twilight years.
I think if someone is able to contribute to care then they should. What else would happen to a persons estate when they pass on (ultimately that's where we're ALL heading), just pass out on to relatives, the tax man and the local cat & dog shelter?
I speak as someone who's own family has taken measures to protect their estate from the grabbing hands of THE state and I just think it's a selfish move.
I've told my mum I don't expect a penny to be left in her bank when she goes and if that means my siblings and I don't get an inheritance then so be it. My parents have brought me up to be honest, hard working, resourceful, I won't begrudge all their available funds to be spent on them when they need it.

Off course it goes without saying, if someone requires additional care/support but don't have the resources then that is when the state should step in.

Not wishing to sound all commie but you come in with nothing you should leave with nothing.

[beensaidbefore]

What of those who who are unable to have children? Bit of a kick in the teeth to be told you've to pay significantly more tax for something you can never experience?

Why should a single person pay for a service they won't be able to use?

bus passes, education, health care, etc are all things that most people will make use of at some point. Childcare is not the same case (I have multiple family members who work in this industry).

most importantly, taxing Someone earning 100k at 50% tax is one thing, taxing another earning 20k at the same rate is something else entirely. It's absolutely not a fair and balanced way to approach taxation.


I'm all for everyone paying their fair share, this doesn't seem it though.


Equally, I'm not sure taxing a higher earning bracket at 80+% would work either, what's the incentive for someone to work to achieve that kind of salary if they'll be giving most of it up? What I think would happen in this scenario is that whatever the lower bracket looks like, let's say 40k, is that people will be happy to hold themselves at that level and never look to progress, potentially leaving a vacuum at upper levels of business in years to come, and also end up with businesses looking to reward their employees in other ways that don't affect their tax contributions/take home wage.
and I say that not as someone anywhere near that kind of wage.

I disagree. We could make all the things you say free if we weakk paid more. That way the people on 20k would have free transport, education, healthcare. Just the same as the guy on 100k.we could even up wages as bit too. But that would mean the people who currently have, to give up a bit of their privilege, which aint gonna happen. Too many folk worried how they could afford their monthly payments for their range rover etc.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I disagree. We could make all the things you say free if we weakk paid more. That way the people on 20k would have free transport, education, healthcare. Just the same as the guy on 100k.we could even up wages as bit too. But that would mean the people who currently have, to give up a bit of their privilege, which aint gonna happen. Too many folk worried how they could afford their monthly payments for their range rover etc.

Privilege is a loaded term - it suggests they didnt work for it.

People earning over 100k in scotland are rare. The reality is to pay for what you suggest the burden would fall on those who have done well enough to earn middle salaries of say 40 - 60k, not wealthy in the traditional sense, but comfortable.

Is it really fair that their income is squeezed to such am extent?

Do you really want an independent scotland to be a country that penalises the successful?

Also, it would be very risky as many of those in scotland earning top salaries are the people who are regularly flying up and down to london - early monday morning at edinburgh airport is as busy as i habe ever seen it. If either those jobs, or those people disappear after indy as many may, scotland gets zero tax take from them.

Not so easy to fund handouts with an ever decreasing pool of workers to pay for them.

Also tou say if we all paid more, woyld you then advocate everyone paying the samr for these universal services?

[beensaidbefore]

Privilege is a loaded term - it suggests they didnt work for it.

People earning over 100k in scotland are rare. The reality is to pay for what you suggest the burden would fall on those who have done well enough to earn middle salaries of say 40 - 60k, not wealthy in the traditional sense, but comfortable.

Is it really fair that their income is squeezed to such am extent?

Do you really want an independent scotland to be a country that penalises the successful?

Also, it would be very risky as many of those in scotland earning top salaries are the people who are regularly flying up and down to london - early monday morning at edinburgh airport is as busy as i habe ever seen it. If either those jobs, or those people disappear after indy as many may, scotland gets zero tax take from them.

Not so easy to fund handouts with an ever decreasing pool of workers to pay for them.

Also tou say if we all paid more, woyld you then advocate everyone paying the samr for these universal services?

I suppose it would require us to have a total rethink of our values and what is important to us as a society. As you have described, the folk who have a fairly decent lifestyle already would be unwilling to give up their luxuries, especially if there was a sense of entitlement.

[ronaldo7]

There's bound to be financial disruption and a lower standard of living due to divorcing from the rest of the UK in the event of independence occurring.

Lets be honest now.

The message the SNP and its supporters should be preaching is 'things will get better'. Being honest with the good folk of Scotland with stating we may suffer in the short to medium term but it will undoubtedly improve in the longer term would strengthen their arguments. Give visionary speeches and forget about arguing about items like GERS figures which the ordinary folk won't take a bit of notice of.

They need someone of stature and vision.

glory glory

No doubt about it, as there is with Brexit. You only have to look at the pounds value in the last few months to realise that the UK are on their uppers, and we need to take a different course.

Hope we do so.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

Privilege is a loaded term - it suggests they didnt work for it.

People earning over 100k in scotland are rare. The reality is to pay for what you suggest the burden would fall on those who have done well enough to earn middle salaries of say 40 - 60k, not wealthy in the traditional sense, but comfortable.

Is it really fair that their income is squeezed to such am extent?

Do you really want an independent scotland to be a country that penalises the successful?

Also, it would be very risky as many of those in scotland earning top salaries are the people who are regularly flying up and down to london - early monday morning at edinburgh airport is as busy as i habe ever seen it. If either those jobs, or those people disappear after indy as many may, scotland gets zero tax take from them.

Not so easy to fund handouts with an ever decreasing pool of workers to pay for them.

Also tou say if we all paid more, woyld you then advocate everyone paying the samr for these universal services?

You must be pulling our chain here bud, if you think privilege and class have nothing to do with where you are in the British class system.

[McD]

I suppose it would require us to have a total rethink of our values and what is important to us as a society. As you have described, the folk who have a fairly decent lifestyle already would be unwilling to give up their luxuries, especially if there was a sense of entitlement.


Someone who has worked hard to pay for something, shouldn't they rightly feel entitled to it? If they've worked their backside off to be in a position to buy a house, a car, or something they want, is it unreasonable for them to to feel they've earned it?

I dont necessarily disagree with the spirit of your point, I just think we'd be in danger of basically telling folk that hard work and earning your way is a folly, as you'll only have it taken off you, so why bother seeking to improve your life or further yourself.

i do agree that we all have a responsibility to support the collective.

i also think that saying a blanket 50% income tax on everyone is grossly unfair - someone earning 20k would be left to live off 10k, which is about £800 a month. That's supposed to cover their mortgage/rent, house insurance, council tax, ability to travel to work and return home, food, electricity, gas, clothing, children's clothing, and more. I doubt that circa £800 would cover that. And at the same time, someone earning 40k is left with double that to live off, so effectively penalising those at the lower end of the scale.

[northstandhibby]

No doubt about it, as there is with Brexit. You only have to look at the pounds value in the last few months to realise that the UK are on their uppers, and we need to take a different course.

Hope we do so.:aok:

I've never been one for deserting my mates for falling on hard times. I'd expect them to stand me a drink or two when I'm on my downers. Not a great reason bud.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

Someone who has worked hard to pay for something, shouldn't they rightly feel entitled to it? If they've worked their backside off to be in a position to buy a house, a car, or something they want, is it unreasonable for them to to feel they've earned it?

I dont necessarily disagree with the spirit of your point, I just think we'd be in danger of basically telling folk that hard work and earning your way is a folly, as you'll only have it taken off you, so why bother seeking to improve your life or further yourself.

i do agree that we all have a responsibility to support the collective.

i also think that saying a blanket 50% income tax on everyone is grossly unfair - someone earning 20k would be left to live off 10k, which is about £800 a month. That's supposed to cover their mortgage/rent, house insurance, council tax, ability to travel to work and return home, food, electricity, gas, clothing, children's clothing, and more. I doubt that circa £800 would cover that. And at the same time, someone earning 40k is left with double that to live off, so effectively penalising those at the lower end of the scale.

Totally agree with this. The gist of the SNP supporters appear to be to take as much as they can from everyone who has anything to give. Student politics running wild it appears.

glory glory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You must be pulling our chain here bud, if you think privilege and class have nothing to do with where you are in the British class system.

I was talking about successful, high earners in scotland.

Of course class / privilege have a part to play, in every socoety ever.

Interesring to note how many SNP politicians and staffers are related to or worked for other senior nats. I suppose they are all therr on merit though, even natalie mcgarry.

My point being, privilege (if not class) exist in scotlanf, and would exist more in an indy Scotland. It might be different privilege, but it would be there just the same.
FFS even the soviets had privilege. Its human nature im afraid.

Just ask angus robertson and his mrs, or nicola sturgeon and her husband...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Thanks for that. Independence first, party second, however I don't think I'll achieve the first without the second if you get my drift.

I'd say the SNP have been a competent Government from their time in office, most of which was when I was not a member.:greengrin

I'll have to disagree with your point re the Indy sceptics though. British Nationalism comes through loud and clear, on this thread, and many others. It's the Union at any cost for some, not all.

I'm all for evidence based analysis, and how we should move forward. You only need to look at the current topic on our economy and the GERS figures to see that we don't get a true reflection of how we would do things differently, and prioritise differently in an Independent Scotland.

I agree, they have been a competent government. I would say in 2007 they were a breath of fresh air after the moribund lib lab govt. And they did fairly well.

Id say that afyer 2011 they got sidetracked by ref. And i think that since salmond went, they are listing badly. They habe run out of ideas, they dont lead on anything, they have hollowed out their frontbenchers and many of the replacements are downgrade, and sturgeon is not a good FM.

She does nothing other than peddle grievance, she is an opposition politician who is still campaigning. All she does is whinge in that whiny weegie accent. Plus, as happens to all govts after years in power, they habe run out of steam, things are going wrong (NHS, education , economy, business rates).

So i think they were, but i think they are less so now.

Also, competent is the least that should be expected, and muchof that competence comes from the civil service anyway.

[northstandhibby]

I agree, they have been a competent government. I would say in 2007 they were a breath of fresh air after the moribund lib lab govt. And they did fairly well.

Id say that afyer 2011 they got sidetracked by ref. And i think that since salmond went, they are listing badly. They habe run out of ideas, they dont lead on anything, they have hollowed out their frontbenchers and many of the replacements are downgrade, and sturgeon is not a good FM.

She does nothing other than peddle grievance, she is an opposition politician who is still campaigning. All she does is whinge in that whiny weegie accent. Plus, as happens to all govts after years in power, they habe run out of steam, things are going wrong (NHS, education , economy, business rates).

So i think they were, but i think they are less so now.

Also, competent is the least that should be expected, and muchof that competence comes from the civil service anyway.

Sturgeon comes across as a monotone angry whiner without scope to lead us anywhere other than the poorhouse. The only policy the SNP seem to have is to lead us to independence in absence of what to do next. A rudderless ship.

glory glory

[johnbc70]

Sturgeon does seem to have a habit of blaming everyone else for pretty much everything. It wasn't our fault, it was Westminster that did it, nothing we could do.

Just wish the SNP would focus on running the country, not on their obsession.

On another point won't Brexit give more powers to the Scottish Parliament as they will be handed back from Brussels? But the SNP don't want them back? How does that tie in with self determination when they are saying they want less powers for our own parliament and are happy for Brussels to rule over us on certain things?

[danhibees1875]

Sturgeon does seem to have a habit of blaming everyone else for pretty much everything. It wasn't our fault, it was Westminster that did it, nothing we could do.

Just wish the SNP would focus on running the country, not on their obsession.

On another point won't Brexit give more powers to the Scottish Parliament as they will be handed back from Brussels? But the SNP don't want them back? How does that tie in with self determination when they are saying they want less powers for our own parliament and are happy for Brussels to rule over us on certain things?


I'm curious - what is it that Brussels had power over that is being returned, and what were the bad things that we should be happy about being able to change for ourselves?

[Just Alf]

Sturgeon does seem to have a habit of blaming everyone else for pretty much everything. It wasn't our fault, it was Westminster that did it, nothing we could do.

Just wish the SNP would focus on running the country, not on their obsession.

On another point won't Brexit give more powers to the Scottish Parliament as they will be handed back from Brussels? But the SNP don't want them back? How does that tie in with self determination when they are saying they want less powers for our own parliament and are happy for Brussels to rule over us on certain things?

On your last para... That's actually the opposite of what's happening. There was a spat reported a few weeks ago regarding comments made in a brexit committee meeting where the UK official (can't remember his name but is heading up our side) stated that as a starting point all powers would go to Westminster initially and not to the devolved parliaments, May repeated that when she was in Wales last week.

As an aside, the technical reason is so that the UK gov holds all of the U.K. Cards during the negotiations.. E.g. The Scottish government can't separately negotiate something in return for access to fishing waters. ..... Which in context actually makes sense hence the ongoing argument around the various devolved authorities not being involved in those self same negotiations.

[johnbc70]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/david-mundell-guarantees-extra-scottish-powers-brexit/

Guess it comes down to who you believe and trust, like pretty much everything in this debate.

[Just Alf]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/david-mundell-guarantees-extra-scottish-powers-brexit/

Guess it comes down to who you believe and trust, like pretty much everything in this debate.

Indeed it does :agree: , the article confirms the outcome of the "spat" I mentioned, and that outcome is, to be fair, the most sensible way forward for all concerned.

PS that page is murder to read on my iPad!

[ronaldo7]

I've never been one for deserting my mates for falling on hard times. I'd expect them to stand me a drink or two when I'm on my downers. Not a great reason bud.

glory glory

When those same mates keep coming back for more, or taking out of your back pocket. It's time to change yer mates. Mon the Europeans.:wink:

[ronaldo7]

I was talking about successful, high earners in scotland.

Of course class / privilege have a part to play, in every socoety ever.

Interesring to note how many SNP politicians and staffers are related to or worked for other senior nats. I suppose they are all therr on merit though, even natalie mcgarry.

My point being, privilege (if not class) exist in scotlanf, and would exist more in an indy Scotland. It might be different privilege, but it would be there just the same.
FFS even the soviets had privilege. Its human nature im afraid.

Just ask angus robertson and his mrs, or nicola sturgeon and her husband...

Fair do's.

I thought you were speaking about the lords, ladies, and dukes etc. You know the ones that own vast swathes of Scotland.

[greenlex]

I've never been one for deserting my mates for falling on hard times. I'd expect them to stand me a drink or two when I'm on my downers. Not a great reason bud.

glory glory

Even when they are hell bent on dragging you down with them?

[Mr Grieves]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15182289.Scotland_could_remain_in_EU_after_Brexit_ says_report__as_May_prepares_to_trigger_Article_50/

"SCOTLAND and Northern Ireland could both remain in the EU pending an independence referendum, according to papers published by a European Parliament (http://www.heraldscotland.com/search/?search=Parliament&topic_id=8780) committee."

[northstandhibby]

Even when they are hell bent on dragging you down with them?

Wouldn't it be better to wait and see whats going to happen with brexit firstly before throwing the toys out of the pram as the SNP are doing?

It was a UK wide vote and while I too was against brexit I'm willing to accept the democratic result while hoping something will occur to lessen a hard brexit or no deal at all.

glory glory

[greenlex]

Wouldn't it be better to wait and see whats going to happen with brexit firstly before throwing the toys out of the pram as the SNP are doing?

It was a UK wide vote and while I too was against brexit I'm willing to accept the democratic result while hoping something will occur to lessen a hard brexit or no deal at all.

glory glory
Are they not calling for a refererendum after the deal is known? Don't see a problem with that personally.
To use your analogy it's bit like giving your mates one last chance to screw the nut or your gonna find a new circle to play with.

[RyeSloan]

Are they not calling for a refererendum after the deal is known? Don't see a problem with that personally.
To use your analogy it's bit like giving your mates one last chance to screw the nut or your gonna find a new circle to play with.

So if there is an Indy vote would we expect another one on the 'deal' that was struck with rUK?

[greenlex]

So if there is an Indy vote would we expect another one on the 'deal' that was struck with rUK?

A bit over the top but if the deal was a hard one with Scottish negotiators making a mess of it I don't see why not. I suppose it may depend on what the seperatists campaigned on.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Fair do's.

I thought you were speaking about the lords, ladies, and dukes etc. You know the ones that own vast swathes of Scotland.

Nah i wasnt! A wee bit tangential, but i would be all for lookig at land reform in scotland - it brings out my inner lefty!!

[ronaldo7]

Nah i wasnt! A wee bit tangential, but i would be all for lookig at land reform in scotland - it brings out my inner lefty!!

Good stuff.:aok: You, and yer bairns may want to take all our powers into our own hands at some time, and not just land reform:aok:

Imagine that neighbour, not having the final vote/veto on whether you plant thistles in your back garden.

[High-On-Hibs]

The analogies being used on here from both sides of the debate are bloody awful. :bitchy: :greengrin

In all seriousness though, it's glaringly obvious that figures in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are being fudged in such a way as to make these nations seem considerably weaker than they are.

16% of the population making up 57.5% of the UK annual deficit, while the other 84% only makes up 42.5%?

It would make zero economical or political sense from a UK Government perspective to run things in such a manner. Not to mention from a party that is roundly rejected in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

[pacoluna]

I agree, they have been a competent government. I would say in 2007 they were a breath of fresh air after the moribund lib lab govt. And they did fairly well.

Id say that afyer 2011 they got sidetracked by ref. And i think that since salmond went, they are listing badly. They habe run out of ideas, they dont lead on anything, they have hollowed out their frontbenchers and many of the replacements are downgrade, and sturgeon is not a good FM.

She does nothing other than peddle grievance, she is an opposition politician who is still campaigning. All she does is whinge in that whiny weegie accent. Plus, as happens to all govts after years in power, they habe run out of steam, things are going wrong (NHS, education , economy, business rates).

So i think they were, but i think they are less so now.

Also, competent is the least that should be expected, and muchof that competence comes from the civil service anyway.

They don't lead on anything?

Free tuition that WM decline to give and receive reciprocally.

Abolishment of prescription Charges.

Same sex marriage legislation

no more ' subsidy junkie' jibes from London-based media about Scotland, and recognition worldwide of our small country

Securement of a population re-engaged with politics, especially younger voters.

More devolved powers (not enough)

Only party that has gave Scotland the option of independence.

Only party that will have give us another option other than Brexit.

feel free to add more.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

They don't lead on anything?

Free tuition that WM decline to give and receive reciprocally.

Abolishment of prescription Charges.

Same sex marriage legislation

no more ' subsidy junkie' jibes from London-based media about Scotland, and recognition worldwide of our small country

Securement of a population re-engaged with politics, especially younger voters.

More devolved powers (not enough)

Only party that has gave Scotland the option of independence.

Only party that will have give us another option other than Brexit.

feel free to add more.

Sorry, i meant that this current administration aren't leading on anything anymore. Our government is like a campaign, and sturgeon is, imo, far more comfortable and competent as an opponent than as a first minister, taking responsibility for thr whole country.

And us the above list really enough after ten years of power? Its not even one significant achievement a year!

Meanwhile educational attainment, nhs targets amd the economy, the three most important areas are all slipping behind.

And dont ask any police officers about what they have done to their service!

My point was that i think salmond was a very good FM, i think sturgeon is proving herself incapable.

[Bristolhibby]

A bit over the top but if the deal was a hard one with Scottish negotiators making a mess of it I don't see why not. I suppose it may depend on what the seperatists campaigned on.

"Seperatists" emotive much?

You make it sound like Cehtchenya.

J

[greenlex]

"Seperatists" emotive much?

You make it sound like Cehtchenya.

J

Seperatists, nationalists republicans? Call them anti unionists if it makes you feel better. It's an emotive subject.

[Jack]

Sorry, i meant that this current administration aren't leading on anything anymore. Our government is like a campaign, and sturgeon is, imo, far more comfortable and competent as an opponent than as a first minister, taking responsibility for thr whole country.

And us the above list really enough after ten years of power? Its not even one significant achievement a year!

Meanwhile educational attainment, nhs targets amd the economy, the three most important areas are all slipping behind.

And dont ask any police officers about what they have done to their service!

My point was that i think salmond was a very good FM, i think sturgeon is proving herself incapable.

As the best performing NHS in the UK can you elaborate on where NHS Scotland targets are slipping?

There's always room for improvement but slipping?

Like many of your other posts much is misinformed, misleading or just made up.

[Moulin Yarns]

As the best performing NHS in the UK can you elaborate on where NHS Scotland targets are slipping?

There's always room for improvement but slipping?

Like many of your other posts much is misinformed, misleading or just made up.

This :agree:

[Mr White]

The analogies being used on here from both sides of the debate are bloody awful. :bitchy: :greengrin

In all seriousness though, it's glaringly obvious that figures in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are being fudged in such a way as to make these nations seem considerably weaker than they are.

16% of the population making up 57.5% of the UK annual deficit, while the other 84% only makes up 42.5%?

It would make zero economical or political sense from a UK Government perspective to run things in such a manner. Not to mention from a party that is roundly rejected in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

What makes you think NI isn't an economically weak region requiring significant subsidy to maintain the current standard of living? Also while the conservative party doesn't draw much support in NI in elections, that's to do with the DUP drawing such a high percentage of the unionist vote. The fact is that a decent chunk of the NI electorate, possibly approaching majority in fact, are absolutely delighted that the strongest mainland unionist party holds a majority in Westminster.

I know you've stated before that you're not interested in reading up on NI but if you change your mind this would be a relevant starting point for you if you're going to keep using NI as an example to back up your points and beliefs:

http://www.factcheckni.org/facts/how-dependent-is-stormont-on-westminster-subvention/

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As the best performing NHS in the UK can you elaborate on where NHS Scotland targets are slipping?

There's always room for improvement but slipping?

Like many of your other posts much is misinformed, misleading or just made up.

Misinformed am i?! Ok then...

I never mentioned anything about the rest of the UK, you did.

The scot govt are missing their own targets on waiting times in a&e and treatment for cancer i believe.

Almost all NHS boards are facing huge financial black holes, scottish patients are inceasingly not getting access to top class treatment because the NHS cant afford it.

Also, our patient outcomes are not too good when compared to the rest of Europe in key metrics like cancer survival.

But its ok, because its better than England...? And who said the nats aren't anti-English?!

Now i am not saying all of that is the SNPs fault, most of it woyld have happened anyway as we, as a society, increasingly demand things of the NHS that it was never designed or funded to do. But the SNP govt are responsible for the last ten years, and if they are going to claim all of the good aspects of social policythat probably would have happened anyway in that time, then they also habe to take the bad. Thats politics im afraid.

Also the record funding claim for the NHS is a nit of political spin. As NHS funding goes up year or year most years, almost ever year sees NHS funding hit a new record.

Real terms funding is, i think, a different story.

Also, if your premise isnthat by performing better than englanf that equals success, by your own definition where we are doing worse than england, for example of the economy and on educational attainement ( i think), are the SNP doing a worse job than the tories?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This :agree:

Seriously? Do you not think the NHS in Scotland is in a critical state of over-demand amd under-funding?

I can assure you it is, and what politicians will admit to publically is nowhere near the actual situation.

But i probably just made that up eh?!

[RyeSloan]

Seriously? Do you not think the NHS in Scotland is in a critical state of over-demand amd under-funding?

I can assure you it is, and what politicians will admit to publically is nowhere near the actual situation.

But i probably just made that up, like you made up your claim about mass unemployment in Edinburgh?

Also getting comparisons of healthcare provision across differing Trusts is hard enough no matter across England and Scotland. Sadly there seems to be little standardisation of metrics within the NHS.

As Peter Bennie, chair of the British Medical Association in Scotland states "it’s actually extremely difficult to show you evidence that there’s a very clear difference in outcomes across the four different health services, even though they do operate in different ways now"

[johnbc70]

BBC News - NHS Scotland waiting time target missed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39118725

Does not sound that great, but sure someone will come along and point out where I have gone wrong, pick from A) BBC Bias B) Westminster and Torys fault C) Any other reason other than the current Scottish governments fault

I think SouthsideHarp_Bhoy is the voice of reason on these posts and at least gives some counter balance to the everything is awesome crew.

As others have said if the Yes campaign want to win the next vote then listen to people who may not share your point of view.

[DaveF]

BBC News - NHS Scotland waiting time target missed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39118725

Does not sound that great, but sure someone will come along and point out where I have gone wrong, pick from A) BBC Bias B) Westminster and Torys fault C) Any other reason other than the current Scottish governments fault

I think SouthsideHarp_Bhoy is the voice of reason on these posts and at least gives some counter balance to the everything is awesome crew.

As others have said if the Yes campaign want to win the next vote then listen to people who may not share your point of view.

I don't think it's great news either but I really feel your 'everything is awesome' line a bit tiring and petty. If you really want the reasoned debate you criticise others for not putting forward,perhaps leave the playground nonsense out?

Anyway, back to the topic. For balance, what are the targets and figures for NHS England? I'm not trying to make any direct comparison, just wondered how things were down south as opposed to up here.

[ronaldo7]

I agree, they have been a competent government. I would say in 2007 they were a breath of fresh air after the moribund lib lab govt. And they did fairly well.

Id say that afyer 2011 they got sidetracked by ref. And i think that since salmond went, they are listing badly. They habe run out of ideas, they dont lead on anything, they have hollowed out their frontbenchers and many of the replacements are downgrade, and sturgeon is not a good FM.

She does nothing other than peddle grievance, she is an opposition politician who is still campaigning. All she does is whinge in that whiny weegie accent. Plus, as happens to all govts after years in power, they habe run out of steam, things are going wrong (NHS, education , economy, business rates).

So i think they were, but i think they are less so now.

Also, competent is the least that should be expected, and muchof that competence comes from the civil service anyway.

I'd say she stands up for ALL of Scotland.


Sturgeon comes across as a monotone angry whiner without scope to lead us anywhere other than the poorhouse. The only policy the SNP seem to have is to lead us to independence in absence of what to do next. A rudderless ship.

glory glory

Opinions eh. I'd say she was clear and concise when she speaks. Brexit means Brexit, and not at this time, are not in her vocabulary though.


Sturgeon does seem to have a habit of blaming everyone else for pretty much everything. It wasn't our fault, it was Westminster that did it, nothing we could do.

Just wish the SNP would focus on running the country, not on their obsession.

On another point won't Brexit give more powers to the Scottish Parliament as they will be handed back from Brussels? But the SNP don't want them back? How does that tie in with self determination when they are saying they want less powers for our own parliament and are happy for Brussels to rule over us on certain things?


Straight out of the Unionist hand book.

What powers are Scotland getting back? Please list them.

[johnbc70]

What powers are Scotland getting back? Please list them.

See my previous response, as I said on that reply it comes down to who you believe and trust. The UK government say we will be "guaranteed" extra powers for the Scottish Parliament after Brexit. So either he is right or he is wrong, but you can't deny he has guaranteed it.

I guess the exact list will be known when negotiations start and end.

[johnbc70]

I don't think it's great news either but I really feel your 'everything is awesome' line a bit tiring and petty. If you really want the reasoned debate you criticise others for not putting forward,perhaps leave the playground nonsense out?

Anyway, back to the topic. For balance, what are the targets and figures for NHS England? I'm not trying to make any direct comparison, just wondered how things were down south as opposed to up here.

I don't keep a log of NHS England and Wales statistics so have no idea, all I read is that here in Scotland we seem to be failing which is my concern as it effects me and my family the most. I am not saying another party would also not fail but you do wonder if the government focused on topics such as this as opposed to others things would further progress have been made.

As for my everything is awesome remark then fair enough, will try and be reasoned from now on.

[Bristolhibby]

See my previous response, as I said on that reply it comes down to who you believe and trust. The UK government say we will be "guaranteed" extra powers for the Scottish Parliament after Brexit. So either he is right or he is wrong, but you can't deny he has guaranteed it.

That sounds like a Vow. 🤔

J

[ronaldo7]

See my previous response, as I said on that reply it comes down to who you believe and trust. The UK government say we will be "guaranteed" extra powers for the Scottish Parliament after Brexit. So either he is right or he is wrong, but you can't deny he has guaranteed it.

I guess the exact list will be known when negotiations start and end.

I asked you to list the powers. What specific powers will be "Guaranteed".

[Jack]

Misinformed am i?! Ok then...

I never mentioned anything about the rest of the UK, you did.

The scot govt are missing their own targets on waiting times in a&e and treatment for cancer i believe.

Almost all NHS boards are facing huge financial black holes, scottish patients are inceasingly not getting access to top class treatment because the NHS cant afford it.

Also, our patient outcomes are not too good when compared to the rest of Europe in key metrics like cancer survival.

But its ok, because its better than England...? And who said the nats aren't anti-English?!

Now i am not saying all of that is the SNPs fault, most of it woyld have happened anyway as we, as a society, increasingly demand things of the NHS that it was never designed or funded to do. But the SNP govt are responsible for the last ten years, and if they are going to claim all of the good aspects of social policythat probably would have happened anyway in that time, then they also habe to take the bad. Thats politics im afraid.

Also the record funding claim for the NHS is a nit of political spin. As NHS funding goes up year or year most years, almost ever year sees NHS funding hit a new record.

Real terms funding is, i think, a different story.

Also, if your premise isnthat by performing better than englanf that equals success, by your own definition where we are doing worse than england, for example of the economy and on educational attainement ( i think), are the SNP doing a worse job than the tories?

You believe, you understand. You're wrong.

I refer the right honourable poster to the post I wrote some hours ago.

[G B Young]

Any feedback from the PM/FM talks today? I caught the lunchtime news where Kezia Dugdale was being interviewed, and while I rarely find she has much to say of significance I thought she nailed it when she said the problem with attempting to achieve anything constructive from such talks is that when one party (ie Sturgeon) goes in wanting them to fail there's no chance of progress.

[johnbc70]

I asked you to list the powers. What specific powers will be "Guaranteed".

I said it will come out in the negotiations, I am not party to those discussions but I do note the UK government has said we will be guaranteed extra powers.

Can you guarantee me what currency an iScotland will have?

[ronaldo7]

Any feedback from the PM/FM talks today? I caught the lunchtime news where Kezia Dugdale was being interviewed, and while I rarely find she has much to say of significance I thought she nailed it when she said the problem with attempting to achieve anything constructive from such talks is that when one party (ie Sturgeon) goes in wanting them to fail there's no chance of progress.

Brexit means Brexit, and now is not the time seem to be getting an airing today.

The PM preferred to meet in a Hotel today, instead of a Scottish Government building where safety would have been more solid. Strange decision, given the ramifications of the last week.

The PM also confirmed the outcome of the Brexit negotiotions will be known within 18 months. FM's timeline for Indy2 seems fine then.

[ronaldo7]

I said it will come out in the negotiations, I am not party to those discussions but I do note the UK government has said we will be guaranteed extra powers.

Can you guarantee me what currency an iScotland will have?

So, you have none. That's fine.:aok:

[johnbc70]

Brexit means Brexit, and now is not the time seem to be getting an airing today.

The PM preferred to meet in a Hotel today, instead of a Scottish Government building where safety would have been more solid. Strange decision, given the ramifications of the last week.

Element of surprise, nobody would have expected a hotel!

[johnbc70]

So, you have none. That's fine.:aok:

And your currency is?

[ronaldo7]

And your currency is?

Growth commission will determine it.

[johnbc70]

Growth commission will determine it.

Just like the Brexit negotiations will determine the powers?

Sometimes I wonder if your on the wind up.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't keep a log of NHS England and Wales statistics so have no idea, all I read is that here in Scotland we seem to be failing which is my concern as it effects me and my family the most. I am not saying another party would also not fail but you do wonder if the government focused on topics such as this as opposed to others things would further progress have been made.

As for my everything is awesome remark then fair enough, will try and be reasoned from now on.

But surely it's important to compare how our health system is doing in comparison to the others in the UK if it's a reason for voting yes or no in an independence referendum?

[ronaldo7]

Just like the Brexit negotiations will determine the powers?

Sometimes I wonder if your on the wind up.

Says the man who types the Everything is awesome brigade.:wink:

[johnbc70]

But surely it's important to compare how our health system is doing in comparison to the others in the UK if it's a reason for voting yes or no in an independence referendum?

When I have done the detailed analysis I will let you know.

[Jack]

Any feedback from the PM/FM talks today? I caught the lunchtime news where Kezia Dugdale was being interviewed, and while I rarely find she has much to say of significance I thought she nailed it when she said the problem with attempting to achieve anything constructive from such talks is that when one party (ie Sturgeon) goes in wanting them to fail there's no chance of progress.

Sturgeon goes in wanting to put forward her points on behalf of Scotland (and by coincidence the other devolved administrations) and May isn't publicly listening.

I suspect hard Brexit isn't set in stone, more likely closer to quick sand, but May is **** scared of the Tory right and can't reveal her hand.

On behalf of the devolved administrations who are currently being dingied NS and her holy grail of independence she is absolutely right to make May squirm.

[Jack]

I said it will come out in the negotiations, I am not party to those discussions but I do note the UK government has said we will be guaranteed extra powers.

Can you guarantee me what currency an iScotland will have?

Thanks for that Mr Brown. The powers in the vow were repeated in the recent Brown promise because virtually nothing was delivered.

It doesn't matter what currency is used it will be worth the same in your pocket and probably more in the future compared to the diving pound.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You believe, you understand. You're wrong.

I refer the right honourable poster to the post I wrote some hours ago.

Ok, lets just agree to disagree.

[PeeJay]

As the best performing NHS in the UK can you elaborate on where NHS Scotland targets are slipping?

There's always room for improvement but slipping?

Like many of your other posts much is misinformed, misleading or just made up.

http://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/uploads/docs/report/2016/nr_161027_nhs_overview.pdf

Found this audit for 2016 that suggests there are real problems not being dealt with in Scotland! 1 in 8 targets for 2016 MET (not missed as I originally stated, my stupid mistake!) - that can be regarded as more than "slipping" in anybody's language, surely, unless I've misunderstod something, of course? Some interesting points made in the report attached here - some challenging decisions needing to be funded and made that are still pending it seems. It's not all negative certainly, but it seems to me that the problems regarding demographics/recruitment and funding requirements alone not much further down the line cannot simply be washed over wih references to parts of the country not governed by the SNP ...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Brexit means Brexit, and now is not the time seem to be getting an airing today.

The PM preferred to meet in a Hotel today, instead of a Scottish Government building where safety would have been more solid. Strange decision, given the ramifications of the last week.

The PM also confirmed the outcome of the Brexit negotiotions will be known within 18 months. FM's timeline for Indy2 seems fine then.

Its not strange, the PM just wont want to give any opportunities for photos that give NS the upper hand - i.e. welcoming her to bute house or st andrews house, amd likewise wouldn't habe wanted to appear to summon her to the scotland office in melville place.

Apparently there was some annoyance about the way sturgeon used her visit to downing st to grandstand at the door. I expext most meetings from now on will be in 'neutral' venues.

Not strange, but perhaps very petty!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But surely it's important to compare how our health system is doing in comparison to the others in the UK if it's a reason for voting yes or no in an independence referendum?

Or you could just compare them to their own targets?!

In all seriousness, i doubt there is too much difference. The NHS model is struggling across the UK.

[ronaldo7]

Its not strange, the PM just wont want to give any opportunities for photos that give NS the upper hand - i.e. welcoming her to bute house or st andrews house, amd likewise wouldn't habe wanted to appear to summon her to the scotland office in melville place.

Apparently there was some annoyance about the way sturgeon used her visit to downing st to grandstand at the door. I expext most meetings from now on will be in 'neutral' venues.

Not strange, but perhaps very petty!!

No press. No questions, No change.

[ronaldo7]

Any feedback from the PM/FM talks today? I caught the lunchtime news where Kezia Dugdale was being interviewed, and while I rarely find she has much to say of significance I thought she nailed it when she said the problem with attempting to achieve anything constructive from such talks is that when one party (ie Sturgeon) goes in wanting them to fail there's no chance of progress.

This seems to blow yours and Kezia's interpretations out of the water.:aok:

https://t.co/JMoxLyYXvc

[Hibrandenburg]

Or you could just compare them to their own targets?!

In all seriousness, i doubt there is too much difference. The NHS model is struggling across the UK.

Targets mean nothing at the end of the day, performance and cost are all that count.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The fact of the matter is that every missed target (or other) from our devolved government (even more so now) is under the microscope as there's so little that the unionists can bash them with.

Never seen anything but Hamza is ripe for a unionist kicking again, trains from Edinburgh to West Lothian and probably beyond were off for a couple of hours on Saturday as punters were getting on my bus after the game with their train tickets. Fill yer boots 😁

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-39406131

An oil exploration firm has made what it has described as the "largest undeveloped discovery" of oil in UK waters.
Hurricane Energy said one billion barrels of recoverable oil could be contained within the Greater Lancaster Area, 60 miles (97km) west of Shetland.


Hammond(and westminster) will be in right frenzy thinking of all that black gold :agree: imagine the look on his coupon after scotland gains independence....then reveals to the world about our other fields we have kept well hidden for 20 years :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-39406131

An oil exploration firm has made what it has described as the "largest undeveloped discovery" of oil in UK waters.
Hurricane Energy said one billion barrels of recoverable oil could be contained within the Greater Lancaster Area, 60 miles (97km) west of Shetland.


Hammond(and westminster) will be in right frenzy thinking of all that black gold :agree: imagine the look on his coupon after scotland gains independence....then reveals to the world about our other fields we have kept well hidden for 20 years :greengrin

Nice to see how you can generate cash from oil these days.:wink:

Norway v UK

https://t.co/nY1f1hd8Aw

[cabbageandribs1875]

Nice to see how you can generate cash from oil these days.:wink:

Norway v UK

https://t.co/nY1f1hd8Aw



because the only real weapon left to the Unionist campaign is to talk Scotland’s economy down by referring to the indicative financial deficit in the GERS reports


no surprise at all that sevco/ king have something to do with this :bitchy:.



:greengrin quite interesting though, ta

[Colr]

Was reading that Labour habe shed about 100k members over the last year.

[speedy_gonzales]

Says the man who types the Everything is awesome brigade.:wink:
Pot/kettle?



Straight out of the Unionist hand book.


Why is it OK for some to use humour,memes & possibly derogatory terms to deflect the points in another posters thread, but not for others to reply in kind?

[ronaldo7]

Pot/kettle?

:greengrin

Why is it OK for some to use humour,memes & possibly derogatory terms to deflect the points in another posters thread, but not for others to reply in kind?

Yes or No, will that do for you?

Unionist v Nationalist seem to be the norm on here.

[marinello59]

The fact of the matter is that every missed target (or other) from our devolved government (even more so now) is under the microscope as there's so little that the unionists can bash them with.

Never seen anything but Hamza is ripe for a unionist kicking again, trains from Edinburgh to West Lothian and probably beyond were off for a couple of hours on Saturday as punters were getting on my bus after the game with their train tickets. Fill yer boots 😁

Since when did highlighting poor SNP performance equate to unionism. There is a dangerous assumption amongst many SNP supporters that criticising their poor performance in Government is only motivated by opposition to Independence. It's arrogant nonsense.

[Jack]

http://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/uploads/docs/report/2016/nr_161027_nhs_overview.pdf

Found this audit for 2016 that suggests there are real problems not being dealt with in Scotland! 1 in 8 targets for 2016 missed - that can be regarded as more than "slipping" in anybody's language, surely, unless I've misunderstod something, of course? Some interesting points made in the report attached here - some challenging decisions needing to be funded and made that are still pending it seems. It's not all negative certainly, but it seems to me that the problems regarding demographics/recruitment and funding requirements alone not much further down the line cannot simply be washed over wih references to parts of the country not governed by the SNP ...

I would suggest that 1 in 8 missed is better than rUK and as I said previously there's no room for complacency. Stand still and the NHS would wither and die. Which coincidentally is what's happening in Tory led England!

I might also put in the debate May on a recent visit to Scotland, not today, had a pop at the SNP led Scottish Government for taking their eye off the ball in the quest for independence while at the same time the English NHS under her Tory watch was being privatised and failing all ends up in the real world!

You couldn't make it up, while at the same time others on here are suggesting without substance our NHS, with all the wonderful people who are working their ends off are somehow failing.

The Scottish NHS is brilliant but is only too aware continual development and progress is needed, it's far frombroken unlike their cousins in England. Maybe too much of what is posted here comes from there and they just don't understand. We don't need ill informed, unfounded crap on here.

[speedy_gonzales]

Yes or No, will that do for you?

Unionist v Nationalist seem to be the norm on here.

To you it would seem so, but for many it's not that black & white, there are whole shades of grey out there, unfortunately there is no "grey" option within a binary referendum but that doesn't mean people in the middle shouldn't be able to air their views without being labelled something they may not be. It's akin to disagreeing with another fan and signing off, LTYF!

I appreciate these threads as I like to read other opinions as well as peruse the facts we know. However I can't say i enjoy these thread types, here & elsewhere, due to the sniping and deflection from all sides and it's getting to the point where I'm thinking about doing an Alan Sugar and saying "I'm out!".

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Targets mean nothing at the end of the day, performance and cost are all that count.

Are targets and other metrics not how you measure performance though?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I would suggest that 1 in 8 missed is better than rUK and as I said previously there's no room for complacency. Stand still and the NHS would wither and die. Which coincidentally is what's happening in Tory led England!

I might also put in the debate May on a recent visit to Scotland, not today, had a pop at the SNP led Scottish Government for taking their eye off the ball in the quest for independence while at the same time the English NHS under her Tory watch was being privatised and failing all ends up in the real world!

You couldn't make it up, while at the same time others on here are suggesting without substance our NHS, with all the wonderful people who are working their ends off are somehow failing.

The Scottish NHS is brilliant but is only too aware continual development and progress is needed, it's far frombroken unlike their cousins in England. Maybe too much of what is posted here comes from there and they just don't understand. We don't need ill informed, unfounded crap on here.

I disagree with a few points.

The NHS in England has not been privatised.

Im not sure that the NHS in England is in much worse of a state than ours, if at all.

And im not sure the NHS anywherr in the UK is brilliant anymore. I think it is probably generally mediocre.

[ronaldo7]

To you it would seem so, but for many it's not that black & white, there are whole shades of grey out there, unfortunately there is no "grey" option within a binary referendum but that doesn't mean people in the middle shouldn't be able to air their views without being labelled something they may not be. It's akin to disagreeing with another fan and signing off, LTYF!

I appreciate these threads as I like to read other opinions as well as peruse the facts we know. However I can't say i enjoy these thread types, here & elsewhere, due to the sniping and deflection from all sides and it's getting to the point where I'm thinking about doing an Alan Sugar and saying "I'm out!".

Referendums are like that though, you pick a side or abstain, unless we get a third choice on the ballot paper of course.

I could go back a long way on this forum and see term, Nationalist, used, whilst most people in the Yes Movement were not.

[Jack]

I disagree with a few points.



And you've failed to provide evidence any of the other points you've raised.




The NHS in England has not been privatised.and

Oh yes it has. Not fully yet but while Scotland remains firm in the belief that health care is not profit driven Virgin Healthcare et al currently hold more than £48bn worth of contracts and are in legal dispute over others.

Ask any healthcare professionals where they'd rather be ill in the UK. It's Scotland because despite people like you constantly having an unfounded go at it it the best the UK has.




Im not sure that the NHS in England is in much worse of a state than ours, if at all.

Oh it is. It's on its knees, see above.

Do you honestly think the opposition in Holyrood wouldn't be having a field day if the NHS in Scotland was failing? Don't you think there's a reason, unlike you, they've shut up in the last 12+ months when it got close?I




And im not sure the NHS anywherr in the UK is brilliant anymore. I think it is probably generally mediocre.

Move to another part of the UK, assuming you're in Scotland, and you'll find out just how good the Scottish NHS is.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And you've failed to provide evidence any of the other points you've raised.

and

Oh yes it has. Not fully yet but while Scotland remains firm in the belief that health care is not profit driven Virgin Healthcare et al currently hold more than £48bn worth of contracts and are in legal dispute over others.

Ask any healthcare professionals where they'd rather be ill in the UK. It's Scotland because despite people like you constantly having an unfounded go at it it the best the UK has.



Oh it is. It's on its knees, see above.

Do you honestly think the opposition in Holyrood wouldn't be having a field day if the NHS in Scotland was failing? Don't you think there's a reason, unlike you, they've shut up in the last 12+ months when it got close?I



Move to another part of the UK, assuming you're in Scotland, and you'll find out just how good the Scottish NHS is.

Its not a court of law, i give my opinion, its for others to decide if that opinion has any merit or not. Your own posts arent exactly full of facts amd evidence either.

It quite clearly has not been privatised, amd suggesting it has is disingenuous.

Sure some private companies may provide services, but that has always beem the case, and is in scotland. Who do you think provides the equipment, medicines, hospitals in some cases, agency nurses, IT, cars, vans and operations when capacity is stretched? Not to mention our GP, optometry and dental services? They all make profit.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And you've failed to provide evidence any of the other points you've raised.

and

Oh yes it has. Not fully yet but while Scotland remains firm in the belief that health care is not profit driven Virgin Healthcare et al currently hold more than £48bn worth of contracts and are in legal dispute over others.

Ask any healthcare professionals where they'd rather be ill in the UK. It's Scotland because despite people like you constantly having an unfounded go at it it the best the UK has.



Oh it is. It's on its knees, see above.

Do you honestly think the opposition in Holyrood wouldn't be having a field day if the NHS in Scotland was failing? Don't you think there's a reason, unlike you, they've shut up in the last 12+ months when it got close?I



Move to another part of the UK, assuming you're in Scotland, and you'll find out just how good the Scottish NHS is.

Also im not having an unfounded go, i assue you. I habe huge admiration for our nhs, but pretending a system dreamed up 70 years ago, to solve a set of problems that dont rwally exist anymore, and that is splitting at the seams is somehow amazing and beyond reproach is counter productive. There is a crisis in the NHS, amd ignoring it wont make it go away.

[Hibrandenburg]

Are targets and other metrics not how you measure performance though?

Metrics yes, targets no. Metrics in the case of the NHS are measurements of quantity, quality and cost, these are all pretty much based on factual statistics. Targets could be absolutely anything.

[RyeSloan]

And you've failed to provide evidence any of the other points you've raised.

and

Oh yes it has. Not fully yet but while Scotland remains firm in the belief that health care is not profit driven Virgin Healthcare et al currently hold more than £48bn worth of contracts and are in legal dispute over others.

Ask any healthcare professionals where they'd rather be ill in the UK. It's Scotland because despite people like you constantly having an unfounded go at it it the best the UK has.



Oh it is. It's on its knees, see above.

Do you honestly think the opposition in Holyrood wouldn't be having a field day if the NHS in Scotland was failing? Don't you think there's a reason, unlike you, they've shut up in the last 12+ months when it got close?I



Move to another part of the UK, assuming you're in Scotland, and you'll find out just how good the Scottish NHS is.

Maybe I've missed it but I'm not sure I've seen you provide any evidence to support your rather strong points.

I posted earlier a quote from the Scottish BMA chair where he stated it was very difficult to present any clear evidence on differences in outcomes between the services ...are you saying you are better informed?

When I've looked at this before it became clear that the monitoring and recording of provision and outcomes varied wildly across the differing trusts. When you add geography and demography as well as factors like poverty and education it becomes even more complex to determine success or otherwise of one approach versus another.

I suspect you may have a personal stake in the Scottish NHS that goes beyond being an occasional user of its services and you therefore feel the need to defend it...which would be more than fair enough but none the less it would be interesting to know how you have came to such a conclusive position.

[Jack]

Its not a court of law, i give my opinion, its for others to decide if that opinion has any merit or not. Your own posts arent exactly full of facts amd evidence either.

It quite clearly has not been privatised, amd suggesting it has is disingenuous.

Sure some private companies may provide services, but that has always beem the case, and is in scotland. Who do you think provides the equipment, medicines, hospitals in some cases, agency nurses, IT, cars, vans and operations when capacity is stretched? Not to mention our GP, optometry and dental services? They all make profit.

I'm calling you to account for the statement you made

"Meanwhile educational attainment, nhs targets amd the economy, the three most important areas are all slipping behind."

so all it is is your opinion, no facts.

Fair enough. I hope you don't mind if I call you up on this each and every time you make a statement no more credible than fake news.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Metrics yes, targets no. Metrics in the case of the NHS are measurements of quantity, quality and cost, these are all pretty much based on factual statistics. Targets could be absolutely anything.

Fair enough, take your point.

[Jack]

Also im not having an unfounded go, i assue you. I habe huge admiration for our nhs, but pretending a system dreamed up 70 years ago, to solve a set of problems that dont rwally exist anymore, and that is splitting at the seams is somehow amazing and beyond reproach is counter productive. There is a crisis in the NHS, amd ignoring it wont make it go away.

You're not even making sense now if you think anything other than the founding principles of the NHS are how it's run in Scotland now.

The only crisis in the NHS now is a lack of funding for the English NHS which has consequential implications for the other devolved administrations.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm calling you to account for the statement you made

"Meanwhile educational attainment, nhs targets amd the economy, the three most important areas are all slipping behind."

so all it is is your opinion, no facts.

Fair enough. I hope you don't mind if I call you up on this each and every time you make a statement no more credible than fake news.

But im not the news, not do i pretend to be!!

Its my opinion yeah, based on what i know, or what i think i know. Im not going to get into a kok measuring competition to justify how i form my opinions. Its of course your choice to disregard them.

For what its worth, that statement is i think objectively true.

At the risk of being circular, the SG are missing their own targets on the NHS.

Educational attainment has fallen (ill try and dig out the facts for you, amf if im wrong, ill hold my hands up)

Amd the economy is performing poorly, with one report i read statimg that most growth in scottiah economy is due to building the nee bridge. Not to mention recently announced rise in business rates of eye-watering levels.

Ill try and find the links for you.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You're not even making sense now if you think anything other than the founding principles of the NHS are how it's run in Scotland now.

The only crisis in the NHS now is a lack of funding for the English NHS which has consequential implications for the other devolved administrations.

That is not what i said. But the NHS founnding principles werent about profit. The NHS was created by ' stuffing doctors mouths with gold' in the first place.

Lors and lots of people profit from the NHS, includingany hundreds of private companies, contractors etc. Thats happening in scotland, as we speak.

Your second point is so far off the mark its not real.

[BullsCloseHibs]

Question Time.....don't you just wanna punch David Davis and especially that UKIP bint!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But im not the news, not do i pretend to be!!

Its my opinion yeah, based on what i know, or what i think i know. Im not going to get into a kok measuring competition to justify how i form my opinions. Its of course your choice to disregard them.

For what its worth, that statement is i think objectively true.

At the risk of being circular, the SG are missing their own targets on the NHS.

Educational attainment has fallen (ill try and dig out the facts for you, amf if im wrong, ill hold my hands up)

Amd the economy is performing poorly, with one report i read statimg that most growth in scottiah economy is due to building the nee bridge. Not to mention recently announced rise in business rates of eye-watering levels.

Ill try and find the links for you.

Uncomfortable reading for john swinney, by his own admission -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38207729


And just one example on the NHS -
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14973627.NHS_Lothian_under_pressure_after_missing_ nearly_70_per_cent_of_targets/

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Uncomfortable reading for john swinney, by his own admission -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38207729


And just one example on the NHS -
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14973627.NHS_Lothian_under_pressure_after_missing_ nearly_70_per_cent_of_targets/


And one on the economy, although obviouslu this is a bit more problematic -
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/022aeeb2-dd85-11e6-9d7c-be108f1c1dce

[Jack]

Maybe I've missed it but I'm not sure I've seen you provide any evidence to support your rather strong points.

I posted earlier a quote from the Scottish BMA chair where he stated it was very difficult to present any clear evidence on differences in outcomes between the services ...are you saying you are better informed?

When I've looked at this before it became clear that the monitoring and recording of provision and outcomes varied wildly across the differing trusts. When you add geography and demography as well as factors like poverty and education it becomes even more complex to determine success or otherwise of one approach versus another.

I suspect you may have a personal stake in the Scottish NHS that goes beyond being an occasional user of its services and you therefore feel the need to defend it...which would be more than fair enough but none the less it would be interesting to know how you have came to such a conclusive position.

I retired almost 5 years ago.

To be fair to the BMA their members are UK wide so it's difficult for them to say anything other than what they do. Ask them privately, as I did, and even their highest office bearers would prefer to work here or become ill here!

Recording between the different countries is a wee bit different, it's not that far apart but the published figures give a reasonable guide as a general indication who's doing better.

About 6 to 8 weeks ago there was a passing comment from Nicola Sturgeon on the TV that NHSScotland had out performed England every month since the bad times of last year (2016) when it was close. You may recall both Labour and the Torys were all over the Scottish Government then. I think you can take it as read, given their lack of comment this year, things are somewhat better here in Scotland.

[Jack]

And one on the economy, although obviouslu this is a bit more problematic -
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/022aeeb2-dd85-11e6-9d7c-be108f1c1dce

Your link doesn't work.

Try this one.

New figures confirm that Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off as an independent country

http://www.businessforscotland.com/new-figures-confirm-that-scotland-would-have-been-8-3-billion-better-off-an-independent-country/

Edit: It doesn't work either. Perhaps someone, from with side, could fix mine?

[ronaldo7]

Your link doesn't work.

Try this one.

New figures confirm that Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off as an independent country

http://www.businessforscotland.com/new-figures-confirm-that-scotland-would-have-been-8-3-billion-better-off-an-independent-country/

Edit: It doesn't work either. Perhaps someone, from with side, could fix mine?

Article by Michael Gray...3yrs ago.

http://www.businessforscotland.com/new-figures-confirm-that-scotland-would-have-been-8-3-billion-better-off-an-independent-country/

[Jack]

Article by Michael Gray...3yrs ago.

http://www.businessforscotland.com/new-figures-confirm-that-scotland-would-have-been-8-3-billion-better-off-an-independent-country/

Thanks

[Just Alf]

Are targets and other metrics not how you measure performance though?


Metrics yes, targets no. Metrics in the case of the NHS are measurements of quantity, quality and cost, these are all pretty much based on factual statistics. Targets could be absolutely anything.

With all the talk re targets and relative performance I thought this table shows up the issue really well.... it's just one metric mind but as far as I know its a similar spread in other measures as well.

Performance against the 62-day target for treatment starting

Nation__________Target (proportion seen in 62 days)______Performance from January to March
England___________ 85% _____________________________ 82%
Northern Ireland___ 95% ____________________________ 71.4%
Scotland__________ 95% ____________________________ 91.8%
Wales____________ 95% ____________________________ 83.9%

[Hibrandenburg]

With all the talk re targets and relative performance I thought this table shows up the issue really well.... it's just one metric mind but as far as I know its a similar spread in other measures as well.

Performance against the 62-day target for treatment starting

Nation__________Target (proportion seen in 62 days)______Performance from January to March
England___________ 85% _____________________________ 82%
Northern Ireland___ 95% ____________________________ 71.4%
Scotland__________ 95% ____________________________ 91.8%
Wales____________ 95% ____________________________ 83.9%

Now take away the target and you're left with the facts.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Since when did highlighting poor SNP performance equate to unionism. There is a dangerous assumption amongst many SNP supporters that criticising their poor performance in Government is only motivated by opposition to Independence. It's arrogant nonsense.

It may be nonsense, arrogant naw 😁. To be fair and consistent with this thread and further afield us (republicans) are criticised for bigging up the Scottish government, it goes both ways.

[PeeJay]

I would suggest that 1 in 8 missed is better than rUK and as I said previously there's no room for complacency. Stand still and the NHS would wither and die. Which coincidentally is what's happening in Tory led England!

I might also put in the debate May on a recent visit to Scotland, not today, had a pop at the SNP led Scottish Government for taking their eye off the ball in the quest for independence while at the same time the English NHS under her Tory watch was being privatised and failing all ends up in the real world!

You couldn't make it up, while at the same time others on here are suggesting without substance our NHS, with all the wonderful people who are working their ends off are somehow failing.

The Scottish NHS is brilliant but is only too aware continual development and progress is needed, it's far frombroken unlike their cousins in England. Maybe too much of what is posted here comes from there and they just don't understand. We don't need ill informed, unfounded crap on here.

Must admit your response initially confused me, BUT unfortunately, in my original post, I dumbly wrote "1 from 8 targets missed" when I meant "MET", sorry for the confusion!

Somewhat bamboozled by all your unnecessary references to "rUK", "Tory England" the "English NHS", "May" and "... their cousins in England" when we are talking about the Scottish NHS missing targets, something the audit certainly seemed to back up?

I thought the points made certainly give cause for concern. In an independent Scotland the references you made to rUK will be even less relevant, so how will the Scottish government actually solve this huge funding/logistics problem already on your doorstep, I wonder?

[goosano]

The health service in Scotland is in crisis. Of that there is no doubt. The reasons for this are complex and some have to do with how the health service is managed by the government. Demographics and the increasing costs and availability of new treatments are other factors putting huge strains on the service as above inflation yearly investment is needed to stand still. Scotland performs better than England mainly because it spends about 25% more on health per capita thanks to Burnett.
General practice is under particular strain. In Lothian around 12 practices have closed or handed back their contracts to the Health Board something completely unheard of before. This os because docrors simply cannot be recruited. The health board now manages these failed practices and they cost about 25 % more to run then traditional practices showing what good value traditional practices have always been. In part this is the administrations fault.The relative percentage that is spent in GP as a percentage of the overall budget has fallen. Almost a third of GPs are approaching retirement age in the next 5 years. Add to this the fact that 75 to 80% of new GPs are women who will on average work around 3 days a week andduring therefore will not provide a whole time equivalent for their training post. Also many young doctors are emigrating to find better paid jobs with better working conditions. Consider these factors and the full scale of the looming crisis becomes evident. In hospitals unfilled consultant posts have doubled to 6.5% in 4 years though they did fall slightly last year. Nursing and midwifery vacancies are also rising. Stress related illness and absenteeism is not surprisingly rising given the attritional working conditions. In Jan, admittedly one of the busiest months, though with low flu levels the A and E 4 hour target of 95% was at 87%. Conditions in A and E and acute medicine are awful and worsening year on year. The emphasis is always on how can we get the patient out of here and not what is best for them
Failure to award doctors and nurses their recommended pay rise (1.3% cut in real terms this year) for 2 years has done nothing to help recruitment.
At least in Scotland there is dialogue between the health minister and the professions. For example there is a pledge to increase GP spending back to where it was at 9% and where 90% of consultation service take place. And thank goodness we don't have Mr Hunt as health minister.
To me the real problem in health is that politicians are simply too afraid to bite the bullet and have an honest discussion about what we can and can't afford and what shape a future health service should have.We continue pretending it can be all encompassing when it can't.

[Just Alf]

Must admit your response initially confused me, BUT unfortunately, in my original post, I dumbly wrote "1 from 8 targets missed" when I meant "MET", sorry for the confusion!

Somewhat bamboozled by all your unnecessary references to "rUK", "Tory England" the "English NHS", "May" and "... their cousins in England" when we are talking about the Scottish NHS missing targets, something the audit certainly seemed to back up?

I thought the points made certainly give cause for concern. In an independent Scotland the references you made to rUK will be even less relevant, so how will the Scottish government actually solve this huge funding/logistics problem already on your doorstep, I wonder?




Some of the descriptive way we're all labelling the opposite side could do with a rethink I agree.

However, the whole premise of the Scottish NHS discussion was around the SNP performance in that area, you can only do that in reality by doing comparisons. Yes they are missing targets but historically when the English NHS decided to drop its target levels the SNP decided to stay as is to help "drive performance". Just to add, in the example above Scotland's NHS FAILED target would actually be seen as a comfortable SUCCESS down south.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Some of the descriptive way we're all labelling the opposite side could do with a rethink I agree.

However, the whole premise of the Scottish NHS discussion was around the SNP performance in that area, you can only do that in reality by doing comparisons. Yes they are missing targets but historically when the English NHS decided to drop its target levels the SNP decided to stay as is to help "drive performance". Just to add, in the example above Scotland's NHS FAILED target would actually be seen as a comfortable SUCCESS down south.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Yeah i think that there is some merit in comparisons, bit equally is the two systems diverge, they maybe become less useful.

The original points i made, which i wad accused of making up, were that the Scottish Govt are missinh their own targets on the NHS, that our education standards are alipping and that our economic performance is also slipping.

The evidence would seem to point to those being true.

The argument about comparisons, different systems and whether yhe NHS in Englanf is being privatised are different arguments, introduced by those who are trying to defend the scot govt from the above points.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Your link doesn't work.

Try this one.

New figures confirm that Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off as an independent country

http://www.businessforscotland.com/new-figures-confirm-that-scotland-would-have-been-8-3-billion-better-off-an-independent-country/

Edit: It doesn't work either. Perhaps someone, from with side, could fix mine?

Apologies for the bust links.

So do you accept that i didnt just make those points up? And thst maybe after ten years in power, the SNP's record looks less impressive than it once did?

Or will you just keep shifting the ground of the discussion?

[PeeJay]

Some of the descriptive way we're all labelling the opposite side could do with a rethink I agree.

However, the whole premise of the Scottish NHS discussion was around the SNP performance in that area, you can only do that in reality by doing comparisons. Yes they are missing targets but historically when the English NHS decided to drop its target levels the SNP decided to stay as is to help "drive performance". Just to add, in the example above Scotland's NHS FAILED target would actually be seen as a comfortable SUCCESS down south.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

The problems both systems face are in reality the same, I guess: i.e. the demographics aspect, the lack of proper funding, the poor recruitment statistics, the spiraling costs for care and medicines coupled with the ever-present short-term thinking - however, I am not sure that a targets comparison with the "rUK" is really productive as the two cases are distinctly different IMO. One shouldn't forget either that the SNP has been in power long enough to look at its own history and to be judged on it.

[marinello59]

It may be nonsense, arrogant naw 😁. To be fair and consistent with this thread and further afield us (republicans) are criticised for bigging up the Scottish government, it goes both ways.

There's an arrogance around the SNP that's at least the equal of Scottish Labour at it's height.
I take it as a republican you are not an SNP supporter then as their policy is still to keep the Royals.

[RyeSloan]

I retired almost 5 years ago.

To be fair to the BMA their members are UK wide so it's difficult for them to say anything other than what they do. Ask them privately, as I did, and even their highest office bearers would prefer to work here or become ill here!

Recording between the different countries is a wee bit different, it's not that far apart but the published figures give a reasonable guide as a general indication who's doing better.

About 6 to 8 weeks ago there was a passing comment from Nicola Sturgeon on the TV that NHSScotland had out performed England every month since the bad times of last year (2016) when it was close. You may recall both Labour and the Torys were all over the Scottish Government then. I think you can take it as read, given their lack of comment this year, things are somewhat better here in Scotland.

Thanks.

Appreciate you have an inside line but your evidence is still rather anecdotal.

The best document I could find on comparisons between the services is here:

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/files/2017-01/4-countries-summary-web-final.pdf

As suspected there is differences but comparison is difficult and there is no clear evidence that Scotlands approach has led to any significant outcome advantage.

[stoneyburn hibs]

There's an arrogance around the SNP that's at least the equal of Scottish Labour at it's height.
I take it as a republican you are not an SNP supporter then as their policy is still to keep the Royals.

Disagree that there's an arrogance. Yes I'm an SNP supporter just not in favour of the royals.