Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Just getting round to reading the back pages of this morning's rag.

Martin Bain's excuse for the EBT scandal is now ,

" I acted in strict accordance with the tax and legal instructions given by the Murray Group "

" At Rangers, we had no in-house legal and tax advice. This all came from the head office of the Murray Group "

Is Bain trying to cut some slack for the Huns with the HMRC, or simply trying to save his own neck from the Govan lynch-mob when Armageddon arrives.

Ass-saving, I reckon. No more, no less. There will be a lot of that in the near future.

It's irrelevant to HMRC who was giving the advice. RFC took it, or didn't take it, and had their finger on the trigger.

[banchoryhibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I was thinking about this yesterday, actually....

As I understand it, the "loans" were from the Trust... which was set up, I believe, in Jersey or Guernsey. The Trust was funded by contributions from the Club.

So, it's only the Trust that can recover the loans from it. Once the money left the Club, the Club no longer has control

I guess that there may be a little mileage in this. On the C4 news story last week a guy called Paul Baxendale-Walker (Google him!) was interviewed. He suggested that Der Hun would have received advice from his "bible" on EBTs and offshore tax guidance but then "did something different". He clearly distanced himself from their actions and, by doing so, appeared to suggest that they were fairly well screwed.

If no discretionary payments were made into the trust then Der Hun retained de facto control over the funds. If this was indeed the case Duff & Duffer may well then have some right of recovery....... now that would be far too good to be true.

Although I think that there is probably enough distance between the loans and the club for such a recovery to be fairly unlikely. Shame.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I guess that there may be a little mileage in this. On the C4 news story last week a guy called Paul Baxendale-Walker (Google him!) was interviewed. He suggested that Der Hun would have received advice from his "bible" on EBTs and offshore tax guidance but then "did something different". He clearly distanced himself from their actions and, by doing so, appeared to suggest that they were fairly well screwed.

If no discretionary payments were made into the trust then Der Hun retained de facto control over the funds. If this was indeed the case Duff & Duffer may well then have some right of recovery....... now that would be far too good to be true.

Although I think that there is probably enough distance between the loans and the club for such a recovery to be fairly unlikely. Shame.

Is it such a shame, though? If the admins thought they had a case for recovery of the payments, they could be here for years taking the legal actions. The amounts involved might be enough to keep them solvent.

We dinny want that....

Nah, on reflection.... it's clutching at straws in cloud cuckoo land.

[banchoryhibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

We dinny want that....

Absolutely agreed:

[Ozyhibby]

There is no way they can reclaim the money as all the players have letters saying they don't have to pay back the loans. That's why they are in so much trouble in the first place.

[Dashing Bob S]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Just getting round to reading the back pages of this morning's rag.

Martin Bain's excuse for the EBT scandal is now ,

" I acted in strict accordance with the tax and legal instructions given by the Murray Group "

" At Rangers, we had no in-house legal and tax advice. This all came from the head office of the Murray Group "

Is Bain trying to cut some slack for the Huns with the HMRC, or simply trying to save his own neck from the Govan lynch-mob when Armageddon arrives.

It's really sad to see such a loyal and steadfast group of people turning on each other.

[Hibernia&Alba]

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmn...90/index.shtml



Over to CWG and our other financial yins......

[WindyMiller]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmn...90/index.shtml



Over to CWG and our other financial yins......

So there is a Santa Claus!

[lucky]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmn...90/index.shtml



Over to CWG and our other financial yins......

Why would Ticketus wipe out £17m? Unless they are getting a major shareholding in the Blue Knights deal which they sell on at a later date.

[Kaiser1962]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

So there is a Santa Claus!

Whatever deal they have done, or think they have done, with Ticketus is immaterial if the BTC goes against them. They wont find HMRC as accomodating. Theres also the small matter of CW's 85% shareholding to overcome.

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Why would Ticketus wipe out £17m? Unless they are getting a major shareholding in the Blue Knights deal which they sell on at a later date.

Because a debt free rangers after a CVA (it won't happen) or liquidation would be worth a lot more.
A CVA is even less likely if HMRC feel that tickets is moving up the Q of creditors. Their rules for granting one state that all creditors are treated equally.

[ancienthibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Because a debt free rangers after a CVA (it won't happen) or liquidation would be worth a lot more.
A CVA is even less likely if HMRC feel that tickets is moving up the Q of creditors. Their rules for granting one state that all creditors are treated equally.

'End game in sight' (from today's Herald)


They are calling a creditors meeting for Friday, April 20 at Ibrox, when they will present their proposals for taking Rangers out of administration. This will involve two possible scenarios: exiting via a Company Voluntary Arrangement, or the assets being sold to a newco. The creditors will, effectively, be voting for which of the two outcomes suits them best, but by then the likely future of the club will have been determined.
As administrators, Duff & Phelps have three priorities, in order: first, to try to rescue the company as a going concern; second, to achieve a better result for the creditors than winding the company up; then lastly, selling assets to raise funds to be distributed to the secured or preferred creditors. In their proposal, Duff & Phelps must explain any reasons why they would consider either or both of the first two objectives to be impossible to meet.
The three remaining interested parties – the Blue Knights consortium, Club 9 Sports and a Singapore-based consortium – must submit their best and final offers by tomorrow, with proof of funding. Duff & Phelps will then decide upon their preferred bidder. They can offer a period of exclusivity, during which the administrators cannot enter in negotiations with any other potential buyers, in return for a non-refundable fee, thought to be in the region of £1m.
The deposit acts as further proof of intention, and provides an element of security for the winning offer. It also establishes how much money Duff & Phelps can utilise in a CVA, allowing them to then begin negotiations between the dominant creditors and their preferred bidder. The likelihood or otherwise of a CVA will have, in effect, been determined before the creditors meeting is held, since Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs already represent a large percentage of Rangers' debt.
For a CVA to be passed, creditors holding 75% or more of the debt must vote in favour, and if the first tier tax tribunal finds in HMRC's favour – landing Rangers with another tax bill of up to £50m – they alone could determine the outcome of the CVA. The votes of the other creditors would then essentially be irrelevant.
Yet it seems unlikely that any of the interested parties other than the Blue Knights could pull together a workable CVA. Paul Murray's move to bring Ticketus – the company that lent Craig Whyte £24.4m in return for future season ticket sales – into his consortium means that if the Knights are successful in their bid to buy the club, Ticketus will not be among the creditors.
Murray, the former Rangers director, is also thought to have negotiated better repayment terms and conditions from Ticketus, freeing up more revenue in the short-term and allowing the club to re-stabilise more quickly. Ticketus would also effectively act as the club's bank, providing a bridging loan for working capital until a share issue is held, with the proceeds being split between CVA payments – HMRC often agree to CVAs that involve a lump sum payment then further installments form future revenue – and investment.
Under the Knights' plans, the rest of the creditors would receive more money from the CVA, and their deal with Ticketus also avoids further legal battles. In a court judgment last week, Lord Hodge declared that Ticketus's claim on future season ticket sales cannot be enforced – because it is not recognised in Scots Law – but they do have a contractual entitlement.
"Although Lord Hodge's decision has, if you like, got rid of the Ticketus rights to future income, Ticketus will almost certainly have an unsecured claim against the football club," says Maureen Leslie of MLM Solutions, the insolvency practitioners. "Lord Hodge left it open just a tiny bit by not precluding Ticketus taking their case to a higher court. If you're going to have months of horrendous litigation, that's going to prevent you from taking a CVA forward within a realistic time frame. You need to get that litigation out of the way."
Club 9 Sports, the Chicago-based investment fund, are believed to have made the highest indicative offer for the club – around £25m – but this is thought to contain several clauses that could see it reduced to become closer to the other bids. Herald Sport has also received a firm denial from the owners of the New York Yankees that they are among the backers. Club 9 Sports are also not thought to have carried out due diligence on Rangers, even though Duff & Phelps set up a website with secured access to a data vault of all the relevant financial and legal information.
"One of the reasons you do diligence is to understand the obligations you're taking on," says Neil Patey, a partner with Ernst and Young. "That all disappears if you're just buying the assets. The other part is understanding the revenue generation of what you're buying, the wage structure, what the historical expenses are. But in a distressed scenario you're just buying the assets so there's less diligence done.
"Why go down the liquidation route? It is cleaner. A CVA is about preserving history. You could see why a Paul Murray consortium would be much more aligned to the history than an American investor."
Duff & Phelps are duty bound to accept the highest offer, but they must also be certain the bidders can deliver. Liquidation and starting the club under a newco is the simplest route out of administration – so still the most likely – while a CVA requires the new owners to submit business plans, cost and future revenue projections for creditors to scrutinise. Yet the Blue Knights' bid has been constructed in such a way as to make it favourable for both the club and the prospects of gaining a CVA.
With Duff & Phelps planning to name their preferred bidder on Thursday, the coming days will be critical to the shape of Rangers' future.

[Caversham Green]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I know, but I think St Mirren should also be making a complaint to the SPL - Withey should have been nowhere near those negotiations as he had a clear conflict of interest.

If you've ventured over to the dark side recently you'll know that Hearts were charged with failing to act in the utmost good faith towards the league and its members - this is a far more blatant example of that than the yams paying their players late. In fact it looks to me like there was a Plan B that involved the remnants of RFC buying out St Mirren.

Now, I'm not one to say I told you so but.....

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=11540

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmn...90/index.shtml



Over to CWG and our other financial yins......

I'm loath to believe anything I read on Follow Follow, but I see Keith Jackson is saying a similar thing.

It all seems to good to be true, which for me normally means it probably is.

I would rather wait until Ticketus themselves say what the truth is.

Edit....The BBC's report suggests things aren't as final as PM claims. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17592209

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17588695


Rangers owner Craig Whyte has been warned by police that he is an "increased security risk".
Officers believe the businessman could be in danger of being targeted by fans for his part in the financial collapse of the club, which has been placed in administration


och, leave the poor wee man alone :( he was only trying his best

[green glory]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm loath to believe anything I read on Follow Follow, but I see Keith Jackson is saying a similar thing.

It all seems to good to be true, which for me normally means it probably is.

I would rather wait until Ticketus themselves say what the truth is.

Edit....The BBC's report suggests things aren't as final as PM claims. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17592209

Talks are still ongoing. Nothing has been signed between PM and Ticketus yet. Tabloids feed Orc hordes positive news to keep selling their sh*tey newspapers shock.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Talks are still ongoing. Nothing has been signed between PM and Ticketus yet. Tabloids feed Orc hordes positive news to keep selling their sh*tey newspapers shock.

The talks:-

Murray, P. "Ok, guys. You write off £17m. We pay back the rest when we can, with no interest. You also give us another £10m. Is that ok?"

Ticketus "Beat it."

The end.

[SurferRosa]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17588695


Rangers owner Craig Whyte has been warned by police that he is an "increased security risk".
Officers believe the businessman could be in danger of being targeted by fans for his part in the financial collapse of the club, which has been placed in administration


och, leave the poor wee man alone :( he was only trying his best

These will be the same fantastic, wonderful supporters who,we keep getting told, dont deserve to be in this mess.......

Hurry up and die Rangers....

[PatHead]

BBC now reporting deal

The Blue Knights consortium believe a deal has been broadly agreed with Ticketus to wipe £17m off the debt they are owed by Rangers.
The two parties plan to mount their bid for the club on Wednesday.
Details of the proposals are still to be finalised, but it would mean Rangers owe Ticketus just £10m if the Blue Knights take over.
That sum would be paid back interest-free over seven years, with nothing repaid in the first two years.
If the agreement is concluded, the Blue Knights-controlled Rangers would also benefit from £10m in working capital from Ticketus prior to a fans share issue.

The rest of the article is just padding.

[Caversham Green]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm loath to believe anything I read on Follow Follow, but I see Keith Jackson is saying a similar thing.

It all seems to good to be true, which for me normally means it probably is.

I would rather wait until Ticketus themselves say what the truth is.

Edit....The BBC's report suggests things aren't as final as PM claims. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17592209

It's always worth bearing in mind that Ticketus are in business to make money for their clients, not to rescue destitute football clubs. Unless there's something we're not being told this deal will cost them more money rather than recovering what they've already sunk. With Whyte now saying he's willing to sell to Murray it feels like a concerted attempt to put pressure on the administrators ahead of tomorrow's deadline.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

BBC now reporting deal

The Blue Knights consortium believe a deal has been broadly agreed with Ticketus to wipe £17m off the debt they are owed by Rangers.
The two parties plan to mount their bid for the club on Wednesday.
Details of the proposals are still to be finalised, but it would mean Rangers owe Ticketus just £10m if the Blue Knights take over.
That sum would be paid back interest-free over seven years, with nothing repaid in the first two years.
If the agreement is concluded, the Blue Knights-controlled Rangers would also benefit from £10m in working capital from Ticketus prior to a fans share issue.

The rest of the article is just padding.

Pat... I have underlined what I think are the key words here.

Are your clients not a bit nervous?

[cabbageandribs1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

These will be the same fantastic, wonderful supporters who,we keep getting told, dont deserve to be in this mess.......

Hurry up and die Rangers....

my(and thousands of others) sentiments exactly but it aint gonna happen unfortunately :(

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

my(and thousands of others) sentiments exactly but it aint gonna happen unfortunately :(

Courage, mon brave. Hector still has his cards to play.

[Bristolhibby]

Oh dear.

The tax case explained.

http://www.channel4.com/news/reveale...ngers-downfall

When is the ruling on the £50m tax case going to happen. Surely that will destroy Rangers and force them into liquidation?

J

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

BBC now reporting deal

The Blue Knights consortium believe a deal has been broadly agreed with Ticketus to wipe £17m off the debt they are owed by Rangers.
The two parties plan to mount their bid for the club on Wednesday.
Details of the proposals are still to be finalised, but it would mean Rangers owe Ticketus just £10m if the Blue Knights take over.
That sum would be paid back interest-free over seven years, with nothing repaid in the first two years.
If the agreement is concluded, the Blue Knights-controlled Rangers would also benefit from £10m in working capital from Ticketus prior to a fans share issue.

The rest of the article is just padding.

And Ticketus take money out of Ranger for ever more.

There's no danger Ticketus will agree to anything unless it provides them with at least their money back.

[PatHead]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

And Ticketus take money out of Ranger for ever more.

There's no danger Ticketus will agree to anything unless it provides them with at least their money back.

Think they would be looking for more than they can expect from liquidation and them becoming a "normal" creditor. The old "half of something is better than all of nothing" would be their take. Don't think it will be as straightforward as is being reported though.

[PatHead]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Pat... I have underlined what I think are the key words here.

Are your clients not a bit nervous?

Don't have any clients invested in their VCT/EISs which are affected by this investment. As these are high risk investment vehicles by nature clients would have to expect a risk of their investment going belly up. They will, more then likely, have already received 40% tax relief which will be a cushion and the funds will have been invested in more than Rangers in the first case. By the sounds of it though this has become a very illiquid investment unless Ticketus have a 3 year exit strategy.

[hibs0666]

Huns have applied to the SFA for a European club licence apparently.

[ancienthibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Huns have applied to the SFA for a European club licence apparently.

More breaking news from the Beeb:

Brian Kennedy expected to be among up to five bidders for Rangers

By Chris McLaughlinSenior Football Reporter, BBC Scotland
Rangers' administrator is expecting four or five final bids for the club - and BBC Scotland understands Brian Kennedy will be one of them.
It is believed the owner of Sale Sharks rugby club has tabled a fresh offer.
BBC Scotland also understands that owner Craig Whyte has agreed to transfer his shares to the Blue Knights consortium led by Paul Murray.
Meanwhile, Duff and Phelps is investigating the consequences of liquidation with football authorities.
The administrator has confirmed that it has started negotiations with both the Scottish Premier League and the Scottish Football Association over the formation of a so-called newco Rangers should that course of action be followed by a new prospective owner.
More to follow...

[Leithenhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

More breaking news from the Beeb:

Brian Kennedy expected to be among up to five bidders for Rangers

By Chris McLaughlinSenior Football Reporter, BBC Scotland
Rangers' administrator is expecting four or five final bids for the club - and BBC Scotland understands Brian Kennedy will be one of them.
It is believed the owner of Sale Sharks rugby club has tabled a fresh offer.
BBC Scotland also understands that owner Craig Whyte has agreed to transfer his shares to the Blue Knights consortium led by Paul Murray.
Meanwhile, Duff and Phelps is investigating the consequences of liquidation with football authorities.
The administrator has confirmed that it has started negotiations with both the Scottish Premier League and the Scottish Football Association over the formation of a so-called newco Rangers should that course of action be followed by a new prospective owner.
More to follow...

Nothing like trying to drum up business