SNP are lying b******s as well !

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

They are pushing on for half a billion pounds and about twenty years over. It literally would have neen cheaper to build hovercrafts inflated by the hot air that Lorna Slater produces. Pay attention :greengrin

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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

... I’m not a unionist. I tend to really dislike nationalism though.

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:wink:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

They are pushing on for half a billion pounds and about twenty years over. It literally would have neen cheaper to build hovercrafts inflated by the hot air that Lorna Slater produces. Pay attention :greengrin

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I’m old enough to remember when Labour spent half a billion pound on the parliament building after saying they could do it for £45m.


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Agreed on the first point, although perhaps it has been provoked by the number of donations below £250.

A couple of thoughts on the previous year issue:-

1. if they're not sure about the cash income this year, then presumably they can't be about the py income,... as the party had the same system that year.... hence the comment about this year's opening reserves.

2. a guess is that, given the public interest in the accounts, particularly in donations, they decided to set their materiality levels differently to their predecessors (lower? higher? It's too early for me :greengrin). There may also be an implied pop at their predecessors in that.

Given the context, there may be a lot of arse-covering going on here.

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Would have loved to be the forensic accountant looking at this case.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I’m old enough to remember when Labour spent half a billion pound on the parliament building after saying they could do it for £45m.


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I reckon because Labour thinks Scotland was worth it. None of this “we are second-class citizens” nonsense the SNP spout to try and foment grievance and anger :na na:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

That was me and I’m not a unionist. I tend to really dislike nationalism though. Brings out the worst in people far too often.

So you maybe want to rethink your post, if you are able to accept the world isn’t ‘us’ and ‘them’, that is.

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It would be easier to just say there isn't a democratic path rather than the constant deflection.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

It would be easier to just say there isn't a democratic path rather than the constant deflection.

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You’d think.


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Originally Posted by He's here!

I'm saying nothing's changed regarding the democratic process since the last referendum except for the fact it's clear there's not the appetite among voters to have another one no matter how many ways the SNP try to dress it up.

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Something has fundamentally changed, the UK governments stance on allowing a referendum.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I’m old enough to remember when Labour spent half a billion pound on the parliament building after saying they could do it for £45m.


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And a Labour controlled Edinburgh Council/government who went for a tram system with a company and contract with so many holes in it to make it a laughing stock, original price around £350m end cost not even the full way nigh on £780m. One of those responsible then became a Lord ffs, yes our very own Baron Jack McConnell of Glenscorrodale.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

It would be easier to just say there isn't a democratic path rather than the constant deflection.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I’m old enough to remember when Labour spent half a billion pound on the parliament building after saying they could do it for £45m.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-C

And a Labour controlled Edinburgh Council/government who went for a tram system with a company and contract with so many holes in it to make it a laughing stock, original price around £350m end cost not even the full way nigh on £780m. One of those responsible then became a Lord ffs, yes our very own Baron Jack McConnell of Glenscorrodale.

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Looks like we all love a wee bit of deflection. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Looks like we all love a wee bit of deflection. :greengrin

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And still no democratic path to Independence. It remains illegal.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And still no democratic path to Independence. It remains illegal.


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I didn’t comment on that to be fair to myself. (I will because I don’t expect anybody else to.:greengrin)

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

It would be easier to just say there isn't a democratic path rather than the constant deflection.

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It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

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This isn’t 2014. We had lots of things in 2014 that we don’t have now.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And still no democratic path to Independence. It remains illegal.


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I think you are mistaking process for outcome.

I would have said it was an innocent error but we know it isn't. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

This isn’t 2014. We had lots of things in 2014 that we don’t have now.


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Dont bring your hair into this :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

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I thought you were supportive of the Union and against Scottish independence reading your posts.

If you support the status quo then you are by default a unionist IMO.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

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We aren't in 2014.

What is the democratic process to independence in the present day?

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

I thought you were supportive of the Union and against Scottish independence reading your posts.

If you support the status quo then you are by default a unionist IMO.

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Well you were wrong. I've posted at length a few times on my view - which is that neither Westminster or Holyrood are the pragmatic solution.

As for your second sentence, I'm not supporting the status quo and I have as many doubts and questions about the SNP's independence offer as the next, sane person.

The fact you see it as "you are either us or you are them" highlights why the pro-indeendence lobby struggle to get even a marginal majority, let alone a convincing one. Its the politics of division and grievance. That's a turn-off for most adults.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

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Which is a long winded way of saying there is no democratic route to Indy.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

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All very fascinating.

Anyway, what is the democratic process to independence?

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Looks like we all love a wee bit of deflection. :greengrin

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Can sometimes lead to an own goal.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government.

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And yet only 25% of Scottish votes went to the Tories. So (yet again) we got a Government we didn't vote for. That's democracy, eh?

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

We aren't in 2014.

What is the democratic process to independence in the present day?

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Through Parliament. I saw someone possted something about Orkney earlier. Exactly the same for them. Through Parliament.

Otherwise what could it be?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Which is a long winded way of saying there is no democratic route to Indy.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

All very fascinating.

Anyway, what is the democratic process to independence?

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Think you will find I answered it in another reply.

It's hard work being popular - unlike your pet grievance :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

All very fascinating.

Anyway, what is the democratic process to independence?

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I'm not sure you did think it fascinating, I think you either didn't read it or didnt understand it, because it kind of answers your question.

I've posted a simpler reply for you now though.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Through Parliament. I saw someone possted something about Orkney earlier. Exactly the same for them. Through Parliament.

Otherwise what could it be?

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I'm assuming this is an attempt at humour.

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Originally Posted by grunt

And yet only 25% of Scottish votes went to the Tories. So (yet again) we got a Government we didn't vote for. That's democracy, eh?

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By Jove I think you've got it!!! In a democracy sometimes we get a government we didn't vote for.

Who would have thought it could have been kicking around for two and a half thousand years and we've only just realised!!!

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I'm not sure you did think it fascinating, I think you either didn't read it or didnt understand it, because it kind of answers your question.

I've posted a simpler reply for you now though.

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For someone who supposedly supports good natured debate you don't half like an underhand dig. Your posts are littered with them.

Try and engage in a politer way if you can manage that. You'll feel better for it.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

I'm assuming this is an attempt at humour.

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Well yet again, I'm afraid you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

For someone who supposedly supports good natured debates you don't half like an underhand dig. Your posts are littered with them.

Try and engage in a politer way if you can manage that. You'll feel better for it.

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Do you know what? You are right.

I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Do you know what? You are right.

I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

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The way to another referendum is through Parliament as you say, however both Sunak and Starmer have said they won't grant another referendum.

If the leaders of the only two parties that can realistically hold power say they won't grant it, how can that be a route to it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Do you know what? You are right.

I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

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Let’s step away from the constitutional question for 5 minutes and ask why the FM won’t grant a public enquiry into the absolute scandalous going on’s and apparent cover ups at NHS Tayside about prof Eljamel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

---

Well summed up. Another departure from reality by the SNP is to claim they 'win' general elections, something that could only be true if Scotland were an independent nation.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

By Jove I think you've got it!!! In a democracy sometimes we get a government we didn't vote for.

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Scotland never gets the Government we vote for. Time for a change. Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for. Who could possibly say that's a bad idea? Not you, surely?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Something has fundamentally changed, the UK governments stance on allowing a referendum.

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In what way has it changed? It's never been the case that a referendum will be granted every time the SG wants one - and rightly so, especially when the demands come from a minority SG.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Well summed up. Another departure from reality by the SNP is to claim they 'win' general elections, something that could only be true if Scotland were an independent nation.

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GE 2019 SNP won 48 out of 59 seats.
GE 2017 SNP won 35 out of 58 seats.
GE 2015 SNP won 56 out of 59 seats.

But yeah, the SNP never win General Elections.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Scotland never gets the Government we vote for. Time for a change. Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for. Who could possibly say that's a bad idea? Not you, surely?

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Tony Blair's Labour government won 56 seats in Scotland. Hardly ancient history.

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Originally Posted by grunt

GE 2019 SNP won 48 out of 59 seats.
GE 2017 SNP won 35 out of 58 seats.
GE 2015 SNP won 56 out of 59 seats.

But yeah, the SNP never win General Elections.

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It's impossible for the SNP to win a GE. Getting the majority of votes in Scotland isn't 'winning' when the vote is a nationwide one.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Well summed up. Another departure from reality by the SNP is to claim they 'win' general elections, something that could only be true if Scotland were an independent nation.

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Great news. Must mean we can't lose them either so there'll be nothing for the other parties to celebrate if they gain seats next year.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Tony Blair's Labour government won 56 seats in Scotland. Hardly ancient history.

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On the promise of delivering a parliament. And well done him. Without the offer of more devolution they will never scale those heights again.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

The way to another referendum is through Parliament as you say, however both Sunak and Starmer have said they won't grant another referendum.

If the leaders of the only two parties that can realistically hold power say they won't grant it, how can that be a route to it?

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Parliament was there long before Sunak or Starmer. One never knows, it may be there for a long time after.

Why should the leader of a main party have to meet your "must be in favour of a referendum" test? Especially bearing in mind it is a minority view?

Anyway, Starmer (and actually Sunak but in a very different way) are pragmatic. If the clear will of the people is there then I suspect strongly that there would be an advisory referendum and if that went the 'leave' way, then a confirmatory referendum.

But it would be with a heavy heart. We can accomplish more, together, than divided - that's the sentiment of people who believe in the trade union movement and the European movement and the progressive movement generally.

Especially when those dividing lines are based around (to my mind) silly concepts of nationhood dreamed up in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, using geography that has shifted more times than you and I have had hot dinners.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

It's impossible for the SNP to win a GE. Getting the majority of votes in Scotland isn't 'winning' when the vote is a nationwide one.

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By Jove I think you've got it!!!

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

But it would be with a heavy heart. We can accomplish more, together, than divided - that's the sentiment of people who believe in the trade union movement and the European movement and the progressive movement generally.

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You could almost say that we are "better together"? It's a good job you're not a unionist!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Parliament was there long before Sunak or Starmer. One never knows, it may be there for a long time after.

Why should the leader of a main party have to meet your "must be in favour of a referendum" test? Especially bearing in mind it is a minority view?

Anyway, Starmer (and actually Sunak but in a very different way) are pragmatic. If the clear will of the people is there then I suspect strongly that there would be an advisory referendum and if that went the 'leave' way, then a confirmatory referendum.

But it would be with a heavy heart. We can accomplish more, together, than divided - that's the sentiment of people who believe in the trade union movement and the European movement and the progressive movement generally.

Especially when those dividing lines are based around (to my mind) silly concepts of nationhood dreamed upin the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, using geography that has shifted more times than you and I have had hot dinners.

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So we are to believe that Westminster parties will grant a referendum when all the evidence points to them being likely to lose it? IMHO that simply won't happen. Governments call elections and referendums they think they will win, not lose.

No Westminster government of any colour will grant another referendum in the short term to medium term. Hence my belief there is no democratic route to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Scotland never gets the Government we vote for. Time for a change. Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for. Who could possibly say that's a bad idea? Not you, surely?

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That is palpable nosense.

Plenty Scottish Tories got the government they voted for. In previous years, plenty Scottish Labour voters got the government they voted for. If you go back far enough, Scottish Liberals got the government they voted for.

As for your point " Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for" - well, no we won't. People who voted for the winning party will get the government they vote for. Which is sort of true whether it is Westminster, Holyrood or North Anywhere Council.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

That is palpable nosense.

Plenty Scottish Tories got the government they voted for. In previous years, plenty Scottish Labour voters got the government they voted for. If you go back far enough, Scottish Liberals got the government they voted for.

As for your point " Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for" - well, no we won't. People who voted for the winning party will get the government they vote for. Which is sort of true whether it is Westminster, Holyrood or North Anywhere Council.

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I'd hazard a guess the poster is talking about getting the government we voted for on a national level, rather than on an individual level.

Let’s hope the good people of England, Wales and NI vote for mp’s that want a Scottish independence referendum then. That appears to be the democratic route for Scotland. Not sure it would pass many democracy tests but fair play for giving it a go and trying to articulate a democratic process.
Can’t wait to hear Sarwar articulate it that way.[emoji106]


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

On the promise of delivering a parliament. And well done him. Without the offer of more devolution they will never scale those heights again.


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A high watermark for Labour but just one example of the numerous occasions when Scotland has got the UK government the majority of its voters wanted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

You could almost say that we are "better together"? It's a good job you're not a unionist!

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I think the SG has produced, at times, some very good legislation. Implementation hasn't always been successful, but thats not entirely their fault.

Similarly, Westminster has produced some very good legislation. And some horrors.

It's not a zero sum game for me. Unlike the diehards and blowhards on either side of these frankly stupid dividing lines.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

A high watermark for Labour but just one example of the numerous occasions when Scotland has got the UK government the majority of its voters wanted.

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A shame that the most recent example you can point to is from 26 years ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

For someone who supposedly supports good natured debate you don't half like an underhand dig. Your posts are littered with them. Try and engage in a politer way if you can manage that. You'll feel better for it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Do you know what? You are right. I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

It's not a zero sum game for me. Unlike the diehards and blowhards on either side of these frankly stupid dividing lines.

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Well that didn't last long.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I think the SG has produced, at times, some very good legislation. Implementation hasn't always been successful, but thats not entirely their fault.

Similarly, Westminster has produced some very good legislation. And some horrows.

It's not a zero sum game for me. Unlike the diehards and blowhards on either side of these frankly stupid dividing lines.

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Diehards and blowhards? Surely we don’t want the board closed again?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

A shame that the most recent example you can point to is from 26 years ago.

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Labour also won 56 seats in Scotland in 2001 and 41 in 2005 and on both occasions formed the UK government.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Well that didn't last long.

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I noticed that myself but in all honesty it's better not to even react to it.

If posters want to behave in that way then let them, the only way this thread will stay open if the majority of posters can discuss things without throwing insults around.

I'm sure the majority of us are capable of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Labour also won 56 seats in Scotland in 2001 and 41 in 2005 and on both occasions formed the UK government.

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That's Labour with 1 seat in Scotland in 2023, right? Whatever happened to them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

I'd hazard a guess the poster is talking about getting the government we voted for on a national level, rather than on an individual level.

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I wondered, but that makes even less sense.

Why not say people from socio-ecomonic group x,y and z didn't (or did) get the government they voted for. To my mind there's a lot more commonality there, than defining oneself by the circumstances of history and the accidents of geography. I mean, pragmatically, there is maybe some rationale some of the time - but it doesn't really cut it.

I strongly suspect a fishing community in Peterhead has more in common with a fishing community in Milford Haven than it does with relatively affluent Barrhead - all roughtly the same population. The Saltire comes second to people's liveliohoods and their families.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I wondered, but that makes even less sense.

Why not say people from socio-ecomonic group x,y and z didn't (or did) get the government they voted for. To my mind there's a lot more commonality there, than defining oneself by the circumstances of history and the accidents of geography. I mean, pragmatically, there is maybe some rationale some of the time - but it doesn't really cut it.

I strongly suspect a fishing community in Peterhead has more in common with a fishing community in Milford Haven than it does with relatively affluent Barrhead - all roughtly the same population. The Saltire comes second to people's liveliohoods and their families.

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They didn’t have much in common when it came to brexit?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Well that didn't last long.

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For someone who publicly declared you "weren't engaging with me" you are sending out some decidedly mixed signals :greengrin

Are we on or off? I can't live like this! :panic:

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

I'd hazard a guess the poster is talking about getting the government we voted for on a national level, rather than on an individual level.

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:agree: Thank you. Thought that would have been obvious.

Oh silly me! It was obvious.

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Originally Posted by grunt

That's Labour with 1 seat in Scotland in 2023, right? Whatever happened to them?

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You stated that Scotland has 'never' got the UK government it voted for. I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of examples which show that not to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Diehards and blowhards? Surely we don’t want the board closed again?


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I wasn't really meaning people on here!

Diehard isn't that negative anyway, blowhard - well, we are all guilty of that at times, even me :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

For someone who publicly declared you "weren't engaging with me" you are sending out some decidedly mixed signals :greengrin

Are we on or off? I can't live like this! :panic:

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It's impossible to contribute to this discussion while ignoring your posts. Believe me, I've tried.

So are you agreeing with my earlier post, or is this just a deflection?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

They didn’t have much in common when it came to brexit?


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Did they not? I've not seen a breakdown of the Brexit vote to the level of Peterhead and Milford Haven.

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Originally Posted by grunt

It's impossible to contribute to this discussion while ignoring your posts. Believe me, I've tried.

So are you agreeing with my earlier post, or is this just a deflection?

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You've got nearly eight thousand posts. Was there one in particular?

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Did they not? I've not seen a breakdown of the Brexit vote to the level of Peterhead and Milford Haven.

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Milford Haven (part of Pembrokeshire) 57% Leave
Peterhead (part of Aberdeenshire) 45% Leave.

But then I'm not your personal researcher.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

You've got nearly eight thousand posts. Was there one in particular?

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This one.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Well that didn't last long.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

Milford Haven (part of Pembrokeshire) 57% Leave
Peterhead (part of Aberdeenshire) 45% Leave.

But then I'm not your personal researcher.

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😂

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Originally Posted by grunt

This one.

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If you mean the diehards and blowhards comment I replied to Ozyhibby about it. Is that all you are asking about?

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Originally Posted by grunt

Milford Haven (part of Pembrokeshire) 57% Leave
Peterhead (part of Aberdeenshire) 45% Leave.

But then I'm not your personal researcher.

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I'm relieved.

Line 1: You are quoting the figure for Pembrokeshire, not Milford Haven

Line 2: You are quoting the figure for Aberdeenshire, not Peterhead. Oh, and the University of East Anglia conducted extensive research to map the results by constituency. They found that Banff and Buchan, the constituency in Aberdeenshire that contains Peterhead was very much a majority Leave.

We are seeing a number of applicants for the post of personal researcher Mr Grunt, and we will get back to you shortly. In the meantime, thank you for your interest in the role.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Let’s hope the good people of England, Wales and NI vote for mp’s that want a Scottish independence referendum then. That appears to be the democratic route for Scotland. Not sure it would pass many democracy tests but fair play for giving it a go and trying to articulate a democratic process.
Can’t wait to hear Sarwar articulate it that way.[emoji106]


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I think the weakness of the 'democracy tests' point is that very few democracies allow secession. By your test virtually no western democracies would count as democratic. The UK approach in 2014 is held up in academic journals as quite enlightened.

The solution to another referendum is a political one. You can speculate all you like about why, but Salmond was able to secure an excellent deal.

There is also the small matter of the impact of the referendum. These are convulsive events and aren't the easy fixes that are often portrayed here.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Sneaky.

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Good practice :agree:

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Originally Posted by archie

I think the weakness of the 'democracy tests' point is that very few democracies allow secession. By your test virtually no western democracies would count as democratic. The UK approach in 2014 is held up in academic journals as quite enlightened.

The solution to another referendum is a political one. You can speculate all you like about why, but Salmond was able to secure an excellent deal.

There is also the small matter of the impact of the referendum. These are convulsive events and aren't the easy fixes that are often portrayed here.

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Very few western democracies are made up of a union of individual nations.
There is a strong majority of Scots who think that the decision on whether we become independent should be made in Scotland. I think people understand a democratic deficit when they see one.


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I took a conscious decision last weekend to take a break from posting here. I have decided to make that permanent.

I have still been poking in and reading the weeks posts and mostly shaking my head at the nature of the debate. It’s just toxic at times.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Very few western democracies are made up of a union of individual nations.
There is a strong majority of Scots who think that the decision on whether we become independent should be made in Scotland. I think people understand a democratic deficit when they see one.


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Germany? In any event, the UK is a unitary state.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I'm saying nothing's changed regarding the democratic process since the last referendum except for the fact it's clear there's not the appetite among voters to have another one no matter how many ways the SNP try to dress it up.

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Theres a democratically elected majority in favour of independence, as there was for the 2014 referendum. The government in England allowed us a vote then so what's changed now ?

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Originally Posted by degenerated

Theres a democratically elected majority in favour of independence, as there was for the 2014 referendum. The government in England allowed us a vote then so what's changed now ?

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They think there's a good chance they'd lose this one.

They had their fingers burnt with Brexit and they don't want to take the risk of it happening again.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

They think there's a good chance they'd lose this one.

They had their fingers burnt with Brexit and they don't want to take the risk of it happening again.

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If polling had suggested anywhere north of 30% supported independence he would have refused a referendum as well.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I took a conscious decision last weekend to take a break from posting here. I have decided to make that permanent.

I have still been poking in and reading the weeks posts and mostly shaking my head at the nature of the debate. It’s just toxic at times.

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That’s a shame. I may not always agree with you but you do respect others opinions and argue your case well. We need more like you. Your contributions will be missed, hope you come back after another wee break.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I took a conscious decision last weekend to take a break from posting here. I have decided to make that permanent.

I have still been poking in and reading the weeks posts and mostly shaking my head at the nature of the debate. It’s just toxic at times.

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I will probably be joining you …after being trolled on the main board yesterday

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

They didn’t have much in common when it came to brexit?


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I was working in London at the time of the EU referendum and there were areas there who voted more strongly in favour of remain than in many areas of Scotland. It was also a pretty close-run thing across the south-east and south-west of England. Folk also tend to forget that well over a million voters in Scotland actually voted for Brexit (including a significant chunk of SNP voters).

Similar to a general election the first past the post system will always leave enormous numbers of voters (in England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland) unhappy with the result but for as long as we vote as the UK it's the version of democracy we operate by.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I'm relieved.

Line 1: You are quoting the figure for Pembrokeshire, not Milford Haven

Line 2: You are quoting the figure for Aberdeenshire, not Peterhead. Oh, and the University of East Anglia conducted extensive research to map the results by constituency. They found that Banff and Buchan, the constituency in Aberdeenshire that contains Peterhead was very much a majority Leave.

We are seeing a number of applicants for the post of personal researcher Mr Grunt, and we will get back to you shortly. In the meantime, thank you for your interest in the role.

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Aye those Brexit loving fishermen are greeting enough now to sink their boats.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

I will probably be joining you …after being trolled on the main board yesterday

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That's a shame, I know we don't see eye to eye on the indy thing ( :greengrin ) but it's good to have different opinions on here.

And FWIW I noticed that yesterday and thought they were a bit out of order to go on and on re a simple statement

It's just not worth it anymore. And I mean this thread. Independence will always be worth fighting for to ensure a better, fairer Scotland. Have fun chaps!!

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Originally Posted by marinello59

That’s a shame. I may not always agree with you but you do respect others opinions and argue your case well. We need more like you. Your contributions will be missed, hope you come back after another wee break.

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:agree: Agreed.

I was seriously interested in how Berwickhibby was being trolled and hoping me disagreeing with him on the match day thread hasn't been interpretated as trolling. Based on that I thought my question was a fair one.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

We are seeing a number of applicants for the post of personal researcher ...

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I'll bet.

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Originally Posted by degenerated

Theres a democratically elected majority in favour of independence, as there was for the 2014 referendum. The government in England allowed us a vote then so what's changed now ?

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The SNP have never won a majority since 2011.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

The SNP have never won a majority since 2011.

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I'm not sure what your point is here?

We have a government formed by 2 parties who had both got elected on the basis of having a referendum, so I'll ask again. What's different?

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Originally Posted by degenerated

I'm not sure what your point is here?

We have a government formed by 2 parties who had both got elected on the basis of having a referendum, so I'll ask again. What's different?

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The coalition needed to cobble together an independence supporting majority is what's different.

The UK government are actually doing Scotland a favour by ensuring those eejits Harvie and Slater don't carry any more clout than they already do.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

The coalition needed to cobble together an independence supporting majority is what's different.

The UK government are actually doing Scotland a favour by ensuring those eejits Harvie and Slater don't carry any more clout than they already do.

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I wanted to stay off this thread but I can't, just can't, let this ***** slip. You support the Tories, you have said that so it's undeniable. Johnson, Truss, Kwarteng etc you supported them, you backed them up, you argued on their defence. But Slater and Harvie...... I've just got a pensions statement through after asking as I want to retire early. 30% down on where it was 3 years ago. Aye, defend that!! I can assure you the UK government do absolutely no favours to scotland

Quote:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

The coalition needed to cobble together an independence supporting majority is what's different.

The UK government are actually doing Scotland a favour by ensuring those eejits Harvie and Slater don't carry any more clout than they already do.

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Ah, benevolent dictatorship. Love it.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

It's impossible for the SNP to win a GE. Getting the majority of votes in Scotland isn't 'winning' when the vote is a nationwide one.

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Well done! You have spotted the problem!!!!

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Through Parliament. I saw someone possted something about Orkney earlier. Exactly the same for them. Through Parliament.

Otherwise what could it be?

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And when we attempt to go through parliament (London) we're told it won't be happening, hence why we went to the courts earlier to see what we could do, the courts then said we must get permission from parliament, sort of catch 22 situation is it not.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

The SNP have never won a majority since 2011.

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TBF the electoral system we have your not really meant to win a majority, it's there to make people and parties work together, prior to the SNP in power we had a coalition of Labour/Liberal.

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

I wanted to stay off this thread but I can't, just can't, let this ***** slip. You support the Tories, you have said that so it's undeniable. Johnson, Truss, Kwarteng etc you supported them, you backed them up, you argued on their defence. But Slater and Harvie...... I've just got a pensions statement through after asking as I want to retire early. 30% down on where it was 3 years ago. Aye, defend that!! I can assure you the UK government do absolutely no favours to scotland

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I said this would happen, on this or probably the tory thread, and was sent away with a flee in my ear saying not to spread fear and alarm. I'm sorry its played out like this for you.

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Originally Posted by J-C

Scottish Executive is alive and well and living at Victoria Quay down at Ocean Drive, that particular big building you see down there is not the Scottish Government, which resides in the Parliament Building.

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The Scottish Executive was renamed The Scottish Government in 2007. The sign above the door says "The Scottish Government" and has done since back then. I should know, I worked in VQ at the time!

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Originally Posted by Hiber-nation

The Scottish Executive was renamed The Scottish Government in 2007. The sign above the door says "The Scottish Government" and has done since back then. I should know, I worked in VQ at the time!

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Thanks for clarification.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-C

TBF the electoral system we have your not really meant to win a majority, it's there to make people and parties work together, prior to the SNP in power we had a coalition of Labour/Liberal.

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:agree: Shocking how often English MPs get to spout the line about SNP 'failing' to win majorities on air without being challenged on it.