SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Glory Lurker]

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Well summed up. Another departure from reality by the SNP is to claim they 'win' general elections, something that could only be true if Scotland were an independent nation.

Great news. Must mean we can't lose them either so there'll be nothing for the other parties to celebrate if they gain seats next year.

[Ozyhibby]

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Tony Blair's Labour government won 56 seats in Scotland. Hardly ancient history.

On the promise of delivering a parliament. And well done him. Without the offer of more devolution they will never scale those heights again.


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[Mibbes Aye]

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The way to another referendum is through Parliament as you say, however both Sunak and Starmer have said they won't grant another referendum.

If the leaders of the only two parties that can realistically hold power say they won't grant it, how can that be a route to it?

Parliament was there long before Sunak or Starmer. One never knows, it may be there for a long time after.

Why should the leader of a main party have to meet your "must be in favour of a referendum" test? Especially bearing in mind it is a minority view?

Anyway, Starmer (and actually Sunak but in a very different way) are pragmatic. If the clear will of the people is there then I suspect strongly that there would be an advisory referendum and if that went the 'leave' way, then a confirmatory referendum.

But it would be with a heavy heart. We can accomplish more, together, than divided - that's the sentiment of people who believe in the trade union movement and the European movement and the progressive movement generally.

Especially when those dividing lines are based around (to my mind) silly concepts of nationhood dreamed up in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, using geography that has shifted more times than you and I have had hot dinners.

[grunt]

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It's impossible for the SNP to win a GE. Getting the majority of votes in Scotland isn't 'winning' when the vote is a nationwide one.

By Jove I think you've got it!!!

[grunt]

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But it would be with a heavy heart. We can accomplish more, together, than divided - that's the sentiment of people who believe in the trade union movement and the European movement and the progressive movement generally.

You could almost say that we are "better together"? It's a good job you're not a unionist!

[Since90+2]

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Parliament was there long before Sunak or Starmer. One never knows, it may be there for a long time after.

Why should the leader of a main party have to meet your "must be in favour of a referendum" test? Especially bearing in mind it is a minority view?

Anyway, Starmer (and actually Sunak but in a very different way) are pragmatic. If the clear will of the people is there then I suspect strongly that there would be an advisory referendum and if that went the 'leave' way, then a confirmatory referendum.

But it would be with a heavy heart. We can accomplish more, together, than divided - that's the sentiment of people who believe in the trade union movement and the European movement and the progressive movement generally.

Especially when those dividing lines are based around (to my mind) silly concepts of nationhood dreamed upin the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, using geography that has shifted more times than you and I have had hot dinners.

So we are to believe that Westminster parties will grant a referendum when all the evidence points to them being likely to lose it? IMHO that simply won't happen. Governments call elections and referendums they think they will win, not lose.

No Westminster government of any colour will grant another referendum in the short term to medium term. Hence my belief there is no democratic route to it.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Scotland never gets the Government we vote for. Time for a change. Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for. Who could possibly say that's a bad idea? Not you, surely?

That is palpable nosense.

Plenty Scottish Tories got the government they voted for. In previous years, plenty Scottish Labour voters got the government they voted for. If you go back far enough, Scottish Liberals got the government they voted for.

As for your point " Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for" - well, no we won't. People who voted for the winning party will get the government they vote for. Which is sort of true whether it is Westminster, Holyrood or North Anywhere Council.

[Since90+2]

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That is palpable nosense.

Plenty Scottish Tories got the government they voted for. In previous years, plenty Scottish Labour voters got the government they voted for. If you go back far enough, Scottish Liberals got the government they voted for.

As for your point " Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for" - well, no we won't. People who voted for the winning party will get the government they vote for. Which is sort of true whether it is Westminster, Holyrood or North Anywhere Council.

I'd hazard a guess the poster is talking about getting the government we voted for on a national level, rather than on an individual level.

[Ozyhibby]

Let’s hope the good people of England, Wales and NI vote for mp’s that want a Scottish independence referendum then. That appears to be the democratic route for Scotland. Not sure it would pass many democracy tests but fair play for giving it a go and trying to articulate a democratic process.
Can’t wait to hear Sarwar articulate it that way.


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[He's here!]

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On the promise of delivering a parliament. And well done him. Without the offer of more devolution they will never scale those heights again.


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A high watermark for Labour but just one example of the numerous occasions when Scotland has got the UK government the majority of its voters wanted.

[Mibbes Aye]

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You could almost say that we are "better together"? It's a good job you're not a unionist!

I think the SG has produced, at times, some very good legislation. Implementation hasn't always been successful, but thats not entirely their fault.

Similarly, Westminster has produced some very good legislation. And some horrors.

It's not a zero sum game for me. Unlike the diehards and blowhards on either side of these frankly stupid dividing lines.

[grunt]

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A high watermark for Labour but just one example of the numerous occasions when Scotland has got the UK government the majority of its voters wanted.

A shame that the most recent example you can point to is from 26 years ago.

[grunt]

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For someone who supposedly supports good natured debate you don't half like an underhand dig. Your posts are littered with them. Try and engage in a politer way if you can manage that. You'll feel better for it.

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Do you know what? You are right. I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

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It's not a zero sum game for me. Unlike the diehards and blowhards on either side of these frankly stupid dividing lines.

Well that didn't last long.

[Ozyhibby]

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I think the SG has produced, at times, some very good legislation. Implementation hasn't always been successful, but thats not entirely their fault.

Similarly, Westminster has produced some very good legislation. And some horrows.

It's not a zero sum game for me. Unlike the diehards and blowhards on either side of these frankly stupid dividing lines.

Diehards and blowhards? Surely we don’t want the board closed again?


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[He's here!]

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A shame that the most recent example you can point to is from 26 years ago.

Labour also won 56 seats in Scotland in 2001 and 41 in 2005 and on both occasions formed the UK government.

[Since90+2]

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Well that didn't last long.

I noticed that myself but in all honesty it's better not to even react to it.

If posters want to behave in that way then let them, the only way this thread will stay open if the majority of posters can discuss things without throwing insults around.

I'm sure the majority of us are capable of that.

[grunt]

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Labour also won 56 seats in Scotland in 2001 and 41 in 2005 and on both occasions formed the UK government.

That's Labour with 1 seat in Scotland in 2023, right? Whatever happened to them?

[Mibbes Aye]

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I'd hazard a guess the poster is talking about getting the government we voted for on a national level, rather than on an individual level.

I wondered, but that makes even less sense.

Why not say people from socio-ecomonic group x,y and z didn't (or did) get the government they voted for. To my mind there's a lot more commonality there, than defining oneself by the circumstances of history and the accidents of geography. I mean, pragmatically, there is maybe some rationale some of the time - but it doesn't really cut it.

I strongly suspect a fishing community in Peterhead has more in common with a fishing community in Milford Haven than it does with relatively affluent Barrhead - all roughtly the same population. The Saltire comes second to people's liveliohoods and their families.

[Ozyhibby]

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I wondered, but that makes even less sense.

Why not say people from socio-ecomonic group x,y and z didn't (or did) get the government they voted for. To my mind there's a lot more commonality there, than defining oneself by the circumstances of history and the accidents of geography. I mean, pragmatically, there is maybe some rationale some of the time - but it doesn't really cut it.

I strongly suspect a fishing community in Peterhead has more in common with a fishing community in Milford Haven than it does with relatively affluent Barrhead - all roughtly the same population. The Saltire comes second to people's liveliohoods and their families.

They didn’t have much in common when it came to brexit?


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[Mibbes Aye]

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Well that didn't last long.

For someone who publicly declared you "weren't engaging with me" you are sending out some decidedly mixed signals

Are we on or off? I can't live like this!

[grunt]

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I'd hazard a guess the poster is talking about getting the government we voted for on a national level, rather than on an individual level.

Thank you. Thought that would have been obvious.

Oh silly me! It was obvious.

[He's here!]

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That's Labour with 1 seat in Scotland in 2023, right? Whatever happened to them?

You stated that Scotland has 'never' got the UK government it voted for. I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of examples which show that not to be the case.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Diehards and blowhards? Surely we don’t want the board closed again?


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I wasn't really meaning people on here!

Diehard isn't that negative anyway, blowhard - well, we are all guilty of that at times, even me

[grunt]

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For someone who publicly declared you "weren't engaging with me" you are sending out some decidedly mixed signals

Are we on or off? I can't live like this!

It's impossible to contribute to this discussion while ignoring your posts. Believe me, I've tried.

So are you agreeing with my earlier post, or is this just a deflection?

[Mibbes Aye]

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They didn’t have much in common when it came to brexit?


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Did they not? I've not seen a breakdown of the Brexit vote to the level of Peterhead and Milford Haven.

[Mibbes Aye]

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It's impossible to contribute to this discussion while ignoring your posts. Believe me, I've tried.

So are you agreeing with my earlier post, or is this just a deflection?

You've got nearly eight thousand posts. Was there one in particular?

[grunt]

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Did they not? I've not seen a breakdown of the Brexit vote to the level of Peterhead and Milford Haven.

Milford Haven (part of Pembrokeshire) 57% Leave
Peterhead (part of Aberdeenshire) 45% Leave.

But then I'm not your personal researcher.

[grunt]

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You've got nearly eight thousand posts. Was there one in particular?

This one.

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Well that didn't last long.

[Since90+2]

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Milford Haven (part of Pembrokeshire) 57% Leave
Peterhead (part of Aberdeenshire) 45% Leave.

But then I'm not your personal researcher.

😂

[Mibbes Aye]

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This one.

If you mean the diehards and blowhards comment I replied to Ozyhibby about it. Is that all you are asking about?