SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Ozyhibby]

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Looks like we all love a wee bit of deflection.

And still no democratic path to Independence. It remains illegal.


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[marinello59]

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And still no democratic path to Independence. It remains illegal.


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I didn’t comment on that to be fair to myself. (I will because I don’t expect anybody else to.)

[Mibbes Aye]

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It would be easier to just say there isn't a democratic path rather than the constant deflection.

It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

[Ozyhibby]

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It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

This isn’t 2014. We had lots of things in 2014 that we don’t have now.


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[Mibbes Aye]

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And still no democratic path to Independence. It remains illegal.


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I think you are mistaking process for outcome.

I would have said it was an innocent error but we know it isn't.

[Mibbes Aye]

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This isn’t 2014. We had lots of things in 2014 that we don’t have now.


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Dont bring your hair into this

[Since90+2]

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It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

I thought you were supportive of the Union and against Scottish independence reading your posts.

If you support the status quo then you are by default a unionist IMO.

[Since90+2]

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It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

We aren't in 2014.

What is the democratic process to independence in the present day?

[Mibbes Aye]

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

[Mibbes Aye]

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I thought you were supportive of the Union and against Scottish independence reading your posts.

If you support the status quo then you are by default a unionist IMO.

Well you were wrong. I've posted at length a few times on my view - which is that neither Westminster or Holyrood are the pragmatic solution.

As for your second sentence, I'm not supporting the status quo and I have as many doubts and questions about the SNP's independence offer as the next, sane person.

The fact you see it as "you are either us or you are them" highlights why the pro-indeendence lobby struggle to get even a marginal majority, let alone a convincing one. Its the politics of division and grievance. That's a turn-off for most adults.

[Ozyhibby]

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Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

Which is a long winded way of saying there is no democratic route to Indy.


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[Since90+2]

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Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

All very fascinating.

Anyway, what is the democratic process to independence?

[gbhibby]

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Looks like we all love a wee bit of deflection.

Can sometimes lead to an own goal.

[grunt]

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Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government.

And yet only 25% of Scottish votes went to the Tories. So (yet again) we got a Government we didn't vote for. That's democracy, eh?

[Mibbes Aye]

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We aren't in 2014.

What is the democratic process to independence in the present day?

Through Parliament. I saw someone possted something about Orkney earlier. Exactly the same for them. Through Parliament.

Otherwise what could it be?

[Mibbes Aye]

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Which is a long winded way of saying there is no democratic route to Indy.


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All very fascinating.

Anyway, what is the democratic process to independence?

Think you will find I answered it in another reply.

It's hard work being popular - unlike your pet grievance

[Mibbes Aye]

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All very fascinating.

Anyway, what is the democratic process to independence?

I'm not sure you did think it fascinating, I think you either didn't read it or didnt understand it, because it kind of answers your question.

I've posted a simpler reply for you now though.

[Since90+2]

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Through Parliament. I saw someone possted something about Orkney earlier. Exactly the same for them. Through Parliament.

Otherwise what could it be?

I'm assuming this is an attempt at humour.

[Mibbes Aye]

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And yet only 25% of Scottish votes went to the Tories. So (yet again) we got a Government we didn't vote for. That's democracy, eh?

By Jove I think you've got it!!! In a democracy sometimes we get a government we didn't vote for.

Who would have thought it could have been kicking around for two and a half thousand years and we've only just realised!!!

[Since90+2]

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I'm not sure you did think it fascinating, I think you either didn't read it or didnt understand it, because it kind of answers your question.

I've posted a simpler reply for you now though.

For someone who supposedly supports good natured debate you don't half like an underhand dig. Your posts are littered with them.

Try and engage in a politer way if you can manage that. You'll feel better for it.

[Mibbes Aye]

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I'm assuming this is an attempt at humour.

Well yet again, I'm afraid you are wrong.

[Mibbes Aye]

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For someone who supposedly supports good natured debates you don't half like an underhand dig. Your posts are littered with them.

Try and engage in a politer way if you can manage that. You'll feel better for it.

Do you know what? You are right.

I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

[Since90+2]

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Do you know what? You are right.

I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

The way to another referendum is through Parliament as you say, however both Sunak and Starmer have said they won't grant another referendum.

If the leaders of the only two parties that can realistically hold power say they won't grant it, how can that be a route to it?

[Berwickhibby]

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Do you know what? You are right.

I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

Let’s step away from the constitutional question for 5 minutes and ask why the FM won’t grant a public enquiry into the absolute scandalous going on’s and apparent cover ups at NHS Tayside about prof Eljamel.

[He's here!]

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Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

Well summed up. Another departure from reality by the SNP is to claim they 'win' general elections, something that could only be true if Scotland were an independent nation.

[grunt]

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By Jove I think you've got it!!! In a democracy sometimes we get a government we didn't vote for.

Scotland never gets the Government we vote for. Time for a change. Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for. Who could possibly say that's a bad idea? Not you, surely?

[He's here!]

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Something has fundamentally changed, the UK governments stance on allowing a referendum.

In what way has it changed? It's never been the case that a referendum will be granted every time the SG wants one - and rightly so, especially when the demands come from a minority SG.

[grunt]

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Well summed up. Another departure from reality by the SNP is to claim they 'win' general elections, something that could only be true if Scotland were an independent nation.

GE 2019 SNP won 48 out of 59 seats.
GE 2017 SNP won 35 out of 58 seats.
GE 2015 SNP won 56 out of 59 seats.

But yeah, the SNP never win General Elections.

[He's here!]

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Scotland never gets the Government we vote for. Time for a change. Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for. Who could possibly say that's a bad idea? Not you, surely?

Tony Blair's Labour government won 56 seats in Scotland. Hardly ancient history.

[He's here!]

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GE 2019 SNP won 48 out of 59 seats.
GE 2017 SNP won 35 out of 58 seats.
GE 2015 SNP won 56 out of 59 seats.

But yeah, the SNP never win General Elections.

It's impossible for the SNP to win a GE. Getting the majority of votes in Scotland isn't 'winning' when the vote is a nationwide one.