Housing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

The landlords screwing new tenants because their profits have dropped slightly due to having to do the right thing with existing tenants. I’m no fan of the Greens but they are spot on with this, good to see capitalism getting taken on here.

---

And who cares about the new tenants (usually young, or new to the city, immigrants etc) who are having to pay much higher rents?
Landlords are responding to the incentives price fixing creates. And has always created. Everywhere this has ever been implemented anywhere in the world has had exactly these results.
Support away but this is a disaster for tenants.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And who cares about the new tenants (usually young, or new to the city, immigrants etc) who are having to pay much higher rents?
Landlords are responding to the incentives price fixing creates. And has always created. Everywhere this has ever been implemented anywhere in the world has had exactly these results.
Support away but this is a disaster for tenants.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Not the profit driven private landlords who are the cause of much higher rents. Price fixing? It’s protecting tenants from greedy landlords who will pass any price increases plus some more for themselves on. That’s capitalism for you.
As always the social housing providers will look after those who can’t afford private rents , that predates any rent freeze , it’s always been the way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Not the profit driven private landlords who are the cause of much higher rents. Price fixing? It’s protecting tenants from greedy landlords who will pass any price increases plus some more for themselves on. That’s capitalism for you.
As always the social housing providers will look after those who can’t afford private rents , that predates any rent freeze , it’s always been the way.

---

It’s literally not protecting tenants. It’s making it worse.
It is not working. It’s making some people feel better and feel like they are helping but that’s no consolation to tenants who are having to pay much higher rents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottis...-to-six-months

I work in this industry and I haven’t seen rents rise as quickly as they have done since this policy was introduced. Every time I think they can’t go higher they do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

I don't often look at rentals but one was advertised on the pitlochry Facebook recently, 3 bedroom, ground floor in a 15 year old development for £1150 a month and it's unfurnished!!!

No idea if that's reasonable or not but it makes me wonder who can afford that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

I don't often look at rentals but one was advertised on the pitlochry Facebook recently, 3 bedroom, ground floor in a 15 year old development for £1150 a month and it's unfurnished!!!

No idea if that's reasonable or not but it makes me wonder who can afford that.

---

Leith walk area is around £1200 for 1 bedroom £1500 pcm for 2 bedrooms £1900 for 3, it's exploded

No idea how a single person can afford that or a family for that matter. Genuinely feel sorry for people starting out right now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s literally not protecting tenants. It’s making it worse.
It is not working. It’s making some people feel better and feel like they are helping but that’s no consolation to tenants who are having to pay much higher rents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

So how are private landlords who are only in it for the profit helping? They can cry all the crocodile tears they want, it’s high time their wings were clipped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

So how are private landlords who are only in it for the profit helping? They can cry all the crocodile tears they want, it’s high time their wings were clipped.

---

This isn’t doing that though? Your saying two things at once. Your saying their wings have been clipped but that they are also profiteering? Which is it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

This isn’t doing that though? Your saying two things at once. Your saying their wings have been clipped but that they are also profiteering? Which is it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Both.
Unless you are arguing private landlords aren’t in it for the profit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Both.
Unless you are arguing private landlords aren’t in it for the profit.

---

Of course they are in it for profit. As they should be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Of course they are in it for profit. As they should be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Profit before people. Parasites.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Profit before people. Parasites.

---

The government have exited the market. You can’t expect individuals to provide social housing?
You are deliberately creating a shortage of housing and wondering why prices are rising.
Name calling won’t sort this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The government have exited the market. You can’t expect individuals to provide social housing?
You are deliberately creating a shortage of housing and wondering why prices are rising.
Name calling won’t sort this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

It wasn’t me. :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

It wasn’t me. :greengrin

---

We then. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Leith walk area is around £1200 for 1 bedroom £1500 pcm for 2 bedrooms £1900 for 3, it's exploded

No idea how a single person can afford that or a family for that matter. Genuinely feel sorry for people starting out right now

---

Top end rent perhaps, there are plenty cheaper than the prices you quote. Still a lot of money for those that are in the gross small scale profiteering business

https://www.bing.com/homes/map?q=1%2...lk&form=000074

Landlord, slacken your noose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Top end rent perhaps, there are plenty cheaper than the prices you quote. Still a lot of money for those that are in the gross small scale profiteering business

https://www.bing.com/homes/map?q=1%2...lk&form=000074

Landlord, slacken your noose.

---

Some lower and some higher less if unfurnished but near leith walk is dearer. Top 3 in your link are way above the numbers I said.

Regardless even at the lower end and unfurnished it's unbelievably dear. People's extra income is crippling those that are renting.

We need new housing and social housing but they won't come quick enough. Prices have rocketed the last 6 months and don't look like stopping

Attachment 27228

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Some lower and some higher less if unfurnished but near leith walk is dearer. Top 3 in your link are way above the numbers I said.

Regardless even at the lower end and unfurnished it's unbelievably dear. People's extra income is crippling those that are renting.

We need new housing and social housing but they won't come quick enough. Prices have rocketed the last 6 months and don't look like stopping

Attachment 27228

---

Doesn’t matter if they are rocketing in real life so long as people can pretend they are doing something about it with rent control. They are happy to throw tenants under the bus so long as they can virtue signal. It’s disgusting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Some lower and some higher less if unfurnished but near leith walk is dearer. Top 3 in your link are way above the numbers I said.

Regardless even at the lower end and unfurnished it's unbelievably dear. People's extra income is crippling those that are renting.

We need new housing and social housing but they won't come quick enough. Prices have rocketed the last 6 months and don't look like stopping

Attachment 27228

---

That should work better

https://www.bing.com/homes/map?q=1%2...lk&form=000074 Edit: Although I typed in the under £1000;00/month bit it resorts back to the full price range when posted. What does that tell you ;-)

It is unbelievably dear. Part of the whole gentrification process that is very damaging to Edinburgh and our younger population.

This leads me back to an earlier point.

There is a finite pot of money, we as a society need to spend it sensibly. There are choices, (like no more tram extensions) to be made.

There are also alternative models of housing and development.

Central and local government that serves it's people would be a good start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Both.
Unless you are arguing private landlords aren’t in it for the profit.

---

Not always the only reasons people rent their property.

Both my daughters have nice Edinburgh flats , one worked abroad for 8 years the other down south and rented their flats when they were away.

Would the anti landlord brigade prefer that the flats were left empty for years or maybe sell up and buy new flats when they returned paying the Scottish government parasites a huge sum in land tax.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Doesn’t matter if they are rocketing in real life so long as people can pretend they are doing something about it with rent control. They are happy to throw tenants under the bus so long as they can virtue signal. It’s disgusting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

You mean the SNP government when you say "people"? Or maybe their supporters across diverse organisations, like Shelter or the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations?

It's almost like the some people are pretending that poor wee private market landlords aren't already maximising profits by milking our housing needy public for all they have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

That should work better

https://www.bing.com/homes/map?q=1%2...lk&form=000074 Edit: Although I typed in the under £1000;00/month bit it resorts back to the full price range when posted. What does that tell you ;-)

It is unbelievably dear. Part of the whole gentrification process that is very damaging to Edinburgh and our younger population.

This leads me back to an earlier point.

There is a finite pot of money, we as a society need to spend it sensibly. There are choices, (like no more tram extensions) to be made.

There are also alternative models of housing and development.

Central and local government that serves it's people would be a good start.

---

There is not a finite pot of money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greenginger

Not always the only reasons people rent their property.

Both my daughters have nice Edinburgh flats , one worked abroad for 8 years the other down south and rented their flats when they were away.

Would the anti landlord brigade prefer that the flats were left empty for years or maybe sell up and buy new flats when they returned paying the Scottish government parasites a huge sum in land tax.

---

I have no problem with people covering their costs whilst their properties are temporarily empty.
The people I have little little sympathy for those who who bought up multiple properties to make easy money in the good times and are now complaining about their tenants being offered a bit of protection in tougher times. And much like the Tories justification for ditching the net zero policies they will say their opposition to rent control is because of their concern for ordinary people. Aye, right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

You mean the SNP government when you say "people"? Or maybe their supporters across diverse organisations, like Shelter or the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations?

It's almost like the some people are pretending that poor wee private market landlords aren't already maximising profits by milking our housing needy public for all they have.

---

Anybody in any business looks to maximise profits. These rent controls make that a lot easier.
We have a housing shortage and you are attacking the people who are trying to provide housing. If you really cared you would campaign for more housing to be built. Start criticising all the nimby groups who oppose every single planning application.
Still if name calling of Landlords makes you feel better then knock yourself out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

I have no problem with people covering their costs whilst their properties are temporarily empty.
The people I have little little sympathy for those who who bought up multiple properties to make easy money in the good times and are now complaining about their tenants being offered a bit of protection in tougher times. And much like the Tories justification for ditching the net zero policies they will say their opposition to rent control is because of their concern for ordinary people. Aye, right.

---

It isn’t protecting tenants! Rents are rising faster because of it. [emoji35]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greenginger

Not always the only reasons people rent their property.

Both my daughters have nice Edinburgh flats , one worked abroad for 8 years the other down south and rented their flats when they were away.

Would the anti landlord brigade prefer that the flats were left empty for years or maybe sell up and buy new flats when they returned paying the Scottish government parasites a huge sum in land tax.

---

Is LBTT hugely higher than SDLT dan sarf, or are English government also parasites? :dunno:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

There is not a finite pot of money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Finite, meaning to have a limit or an end.

"The funds available for the health service are finite and we cannot afford to waste money".

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...english/finite

I think there is a finite pot of money, that is why I mentioned that we as a society need to choose how we spend it.

I suppose we could assist the finite nature of the funds available by introducing higher social tariffs on housebuilders, tax and regulate those renting homes as business (like the air b nb's)

I wonder how people who receive assistance via Housing Benefit can afford the already exorbitant private sector rents when the council have a long established local market rate for payment? Actually, I'll have a wild stab at this one and say that they can't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It isn’t protecting tenants! Rents are rising faster because of it. [emoji35]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

It's protecting existing tenants from excessive rent increases.
Who is raising the rents for new tenants?

The long term solution is obviously to provide much more social housing but that doesn't mean private tenants shouldn't be protected as well. When you look at the legislation it really isn't overly restrictive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Anybody in any business looks to maximise profits. These rent controls make that a lot easier.
We have a housing shortage and you are attacking the people who are trying to provide housing. If you really cared you would campaign for more housing to be built. Start criticising all the nimby groups who oppose every single planning application.
Still if name calling of Landlords makes you feel better then knock yourself out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Nimby groups-direct from the Sheeple thesaurus of cliche. They don't appear very effective, as the huge encroachment onto former green belt land all around the south and east of Edinburgh for housing shows.

You have no idea what I do. The fact that you have to resort to that kind of nonsense during a discussion where someone wants to point out that there are alternatives your own rather assertive views says more about you than it does about me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Is LBTT hugely higher than SDLT dan sarf, or are English government also parasites? :dunno:

---

Yes I’d say it’s hugely higher, I moved in July and paid nearly £7000 more than the equivalent person in England would have paid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

It's protecting existing tenants from excessive rent increases.
Who is raising the rents for new tenants?

The long term solution is obviously to provide much more social housing but that doesn't mean private tenants shouldn't be protected as well. When you look at the legislation it really isn't overly restrictive.

---

I think you can only call it a long term solution if we have made a start on it. We haven’t. It’s just a pipe dream.
I think if we doubled our rate of house building it wouldn’t be enough. It’s a scandal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I think you can only call it a long term solution if we have made a start on it. We haven’t. It’s just a pipe dream.
I think if we doubled our rate of house building it wouldn’t be enough. It’s a scandal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

That I agree with. :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hibee

Yes I’d say it’s hugely higher, I moved in July and paid nearly £7000 more than the equivalent person in England would have paid.

---

Ok £7000 is a decent size wedge but if my calculations are right there's only a 1.7% difference in the effective rate of tax on your house price (2% dan sarf and 3.7% here). And generally less on smaller houses.

Nearly double, yes. Huge, a dunno. :dunno:

What's certain is that at least one poster will be along quite soon to claim that Additional Dwelling Supplement, largely a tax on landlords rather than on land, has the effect of putting tenants' rent up. :wink:

Quarterly affordable housing supply statistics are used to inform progress against Scottish Government affordable housing delivery targets, in which the ambition is to deliver 110,000 affordable homes by 2032, of which at least 70% will be for social rent and 10% will be in remote, rural and island communities.

There have been a total of 13,354 affordable homes completed between 23 March 2022 and 30 June 2023 towards the target of 110,000 affordable homes by 2032, consisting of 10,459 (78%) homes for social rent, 1,706 (13%) for affordable rent, and 1,189 (9%) for affordable home ownership.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/qu...eptember-2023/

In the latest year to end June 2023, increases were seen for private-led new build completions (9% or 1,342 homes) and housing association new build completions (18% or 728 homes), whilst local authority new build completions dropped by 23% or 589 homes.

There is a socially responsible house building programme in Scotland, let's not pretend otherwise. Clearly it needs much more investment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Ok £7000 is a decent size wedge but if my calculations are right there's only a 1.7% difference in the effective rate of tax on your house price (2% dan sarf and 3.7% here). And generally less on smaller houses.

Nearly double, yes. Huge, a dunno. :dunno:

What's certain is that at least one poster will be along quite soon to claim that Additional Dwelling Supplement, largely a tax on landlords rather than on land, has the effect of putting tenants' rent up. :wink:

---

In England they pay 5% on purchases between £250,001 and £925,000 and we pay 10% on purchases between £325,001 and £750,000 so that’s where it hits quite hard.

According to their own website “LBTT makes up a large part of the Scottish government budget, a total self-reported tax liability of £83.9m was declared by taxpayers in August 2023. This is up 10% on last month.”

Maybe they should build some houses for rent with the income they make from this rather than diverting it away to be used elsewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hibee

In England they pay 5% on purchases between £250,001 and £925,000 and we pay 10% on purchases between £325,001 and £750,000 so that’s where it hits quite hard.

According to their own website “LBTT makes up a large part of the Scottish government budget, a total self-reported tax liability of £83.9m was declared by taxpayers in August 2023. This is up 10% on last month.”

Maybe they should build some houses for rent with the income they make from this rather than diverting it away to be used elsewhere.

---

Yep, costs must have gone up about 1000% since the days of stamp duty.

The Scottish government has its snout in the housing market trough as much as any developer, builder or landlord.

https://www.propertyinvestmentsuk.co...re%20different.

Scotland used to have the same Stamp Duty system as the rest of the UK but it brought in its own system as of April 2015. Although the basic concept of Land and Buildings Transaction Tax is the same as Stamp Duty – it is a tax on buying property – both the way it works and the rates of tax are different.

The LBTT system in Scotland, together with the fact that average property prices in Scotland are lower – the average property price in Scotland, in January 2023, was £185,016 – means that most buyers in Scotland pay less than buyers in England.

🤔

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...d-january-2023

In Scotland, average prices increased by 1.0% in the 12 months to January 2023, down from an increase of 5.1% in the 12 months to December 2022.

https://espc.com/advice/affordable-housing

Might be some useful information there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://espc.com/advice/affordable-housing

Might be some useful information there.

---

Good links to some of the existing schemes that support people to purchase houses.

Golden Share scheme

Golden Share homes are an approved affordable housing tenure within the Council’s Affordable Housing Policy. The properties are sold at 80% of Open Market Value (OMV) making them affordable to those who could not afford to purchase a similar home of its size in that area.

LIFT Open Market Shared Equity scheme-https://linkhousing.org.uk/LIFT/

Through the Scottish Government's Low-cost Initiative for First Time Buyers (LIFT), Applicants can receive up to 40% funding towards the price of a home on the open market. Link Housing administers the LIFT Open Market Shared Equity scheme on behalf of the Scottish Government throughout Scotland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.propertyinvestmentsuk.co...re%20different.

Scotland used to have the same Stamp Duty system as the rest of the UK but it brought in its own system as of April 2015. Although the basic concept of Land and Buildings Transaction Tax is the same as Stamp Duty – it is a tax on buying property – both the way it works and the rates of tax are different.

The LBTT system in Scotland, together with the fact that average property prices in Scotland are lower – the average property price in Scotland, in January 2023, was £185,016 – means that most buyers in Scotland pay less than buyers in England.

��

---

I think that's misleading in that a lot of people could and will pay more.

You have given the median average when you say £185K

Most people assume the average to be the mean, which is over £216,000

The mean in this case excludes strong outliers - houses sold for less than £20K or over £1m

Using the £185K figure is misleading because in simple terms it is the middle value - it only means that half the houses cost less, half cost more. Hypothetically, half the houses could cost £184K and half cost £300K. You wouldn't say the average was £185K based on that.

Mean average isn't perfect either but I think it's fair to say it's what most people assume is meant when 'average price' is used.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.propertyinvestmentsuk.co...re%20different.

Scotland used to have the same Stamp Duty system as the rest of the UK but it brought in its own system as of April 2015. Although the basic concept of Land and Buildings Transaction Tax is the same as Stamp Duty – it is a tax on buying property – both the way it works and the rates of tax are different.

The LBTT system in Scotland, together with the fact that average property prices in Scotland are lower – the average property price in Scotland, in January 2023, was £185,016 – means that most buyers in Scotland pay less than buyers in England.

🤔

---

£185k???

What they buying? Shoe boxes in Dundee?

:greengrin

That portion taxed at 10% very quickly racks up the bills you're paying upfront to buy a house in the mid-market.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by danhibees1875

£185k???

What they buying? Shoe boxes in Dundee?

:greengrin

That portion taxed at 10% very quickly racks up the bills you're paying upfront to buy a house in the mid-market.

---

To be fair, £185k buys you a pretty good house in Dundee. Edinburgh prices are miles out of sync with most of Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I think that's misleading in that a lot of people could and will pay more.

You have given the median average when you say £185K

Most people assume the average to be the mean, which is over £216,000

The mean in this case excludes strong outliers - houses sold for less than £20K or over £1m

Using the £185K figure is misleading because in simple terms it is the middle value - it only means that half the houses cost less, half cost more. Hypothetically, half the houses could cost £184K and half cost £300K. You wouldn't say the average was £185K based on that.

Mean average isn't perfect either but I think it's fair to say it's what most people assume is meant when 'average price' is used.

---

Don't shoot the messenger, that's a straight quote from the link.

Property Investments UK

The Property Investments UK editorial team have been researching and writing about the UK's property market for more than a decade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Don't shoot the messenger, that's a straight quote from the link.

Property Investments UK

The Property Investments UK editorial team have been researching and writing about the UK's property market for more than a decade.

---

They may have been researching for more than a decade but it takes thirty seconds to get the official stats from GRoS, which is what they have used anyway.

I’m not really looking to have a go at you, I just don’t deal well with how stats are used, specially the misuse of averages :greengrin

GRoS, or perhaps U.K. gov, can’t remember which, do a pretty good heat map with mean averages by local authority area. City of Edinburgh and East Lothian average at over £300,000. Midlothian, West Lothian both over £200K, Scottish Borders just shy of £200K. If you want affordable housing then Inverclyde or East Ayrshire are your best bets :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greenginger

Yep, costs must have gone up about 1000% since the days of stamp duty.

The Scottish government has its snout in the housing market trough as much as any developer, builder or landlord.

---

Stamp Duty in 2015 on a £300,000 house = £3500
LBTT in 2023 on a £300,000 house = £4600
(If average house price was £150,000 then, Stamp Duty = £500, getting pretty close to 1000%)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

They may have been researching for more than a decade but it takes thirty seconds to get the official stats from GRoS, which is what they have used anyway.

I’m not really looking to have a go at you, I just don’t deal well with how stats are used, specially the misuse of averages :greengrin

GRoS, or perhaps U.K. gov, can’t remember which, do a pretty good heat map with mean averages by local authority area. City of Edinburgh and East Lothian average at over £300,000. Midlothian, West Lothian both over £200K, Scottish Borders just shy of £200K. If you want affordable housing then Inverclyde or East Ayrshire are your best bets :greengrin

---

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-house-price-index-for-january-2023/uk-house-price-index-scotland-january-2023


Are the UK government figures wrong as well? 🤔😉

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Stamp Duty in 2015 on a £300,000 house = £3500
LBTT in 2023 on a £300,000 house = £4600
(If average house price was £150,000 then, Stamp Duty = £500, getting pretty close to 1000%)

---

Hasn’t slowed house prices, that’s for sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-house-price-index-for-january-2023/uk-house-price-index-scotland-january-2023


Are the UK government figures wrong as well? ����

---

You've just taken us back to the start of our exchange. Will this never end?????? :greengrin

Your £185K figure, as used in the links you have posted is a median average. Using the median to make a point can easily lead to false conclusions.

The mean average for Scotland is around £216K. Using the mean can also lead to false conclusions but the mean is what people commonly think of when they see the word 'average in this context - not median and not mode (God help us!)

The mean average in Edinburgh is over £300K. The mean average in East Lothian is also over £300K. The mean average in Midlothian is over £230K and the mean average in West Lothian is over £200K. I suspect those figures will be more relatable to the majority of posters on here than your scottish median average is. Does that sound fair enough?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Hasn’t slowed house prices, that’s for sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

That’s quite possibly because it acts as a barrier to people moving thus acts as a brake on secondary supply which in turn raises the prices of those that are made available.

Just one of the many Gordian Knot distortions that the powers that be have layered onto the housing market.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyeSloan

That’s quite possibly because it acts as a barrier to people moving thus acts as a brake on secondary supply which in turn raises the prices of those that are made available.

Just one of the many Gordian Knot distortions that the powers that be have layered onto the housing market.

---

:agree:

Nice bit of contribution analysis, or the law of intendedunintended consequences if you prefer.

But as you say, there will be almost countless other factors that come into play, when or even aggregated up to population level.

The total number of residential property sales for 2020-2021 was 101,055, a decrease of 7.9% when compared with 2021-22.

The average price of a residential property in Scotland was £216,337, an increase of 7.1% when compared with 2021-22

The total value of the residential sales market in Scotland was £21.9 billion, a decrease of 1.4% when compared with 2021-22.

https://www.ros.gov.uk/data-and-stat...report-2022-23

However, there are significant regional variations at work. The rural property market seems worryingly inflated though. Alarming for younger people who live in areas like Western Isles, Orkney, Shetland, Argyll and Bute.

In Scotland, average prices increased by 7.3% in the year to September 2022, down from an increase of 8.8% in the year to August 2022.

Annual price change by local authority for Scotland

Low numbers of sales transactions in some local authorities, such as Orkney Islands, Na h-Eileanan Siar and Shetland Islands, can lead to volatility in the series.

Edinburgh's inflated prices......

Sept 2022 Sept 2021
City of Aberdeen £145,153 £148,697 -2.4%
City of Dundee £155,896 £143,331 8.8%
City of Edinburgh £337,087 £315,613 6.8%
City of Glasgow £176,087 £163,969 7.4%

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...september-2022

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

You've just taken us back to the start of our exchange. Will this never end?????? :greengrin

Your £185K figure, as used in the links you have posted is a median average. Using the median to make a point can easily lead to false conclusions.

The mean average for Scotland is around £216K. Using the mean can also lead to false conclusions but the mean is what people commonly think of when they see the word 'average in this context - not median and not mode (God help us!)

The mean average in Edinburgh is over £300K. The mean average in East Lothian is also over £300K. The mean average in Midlothian is over £230K and the mean average in West Lothian is over £200K. I suspect those figures will be more relatable to the majority of posters on here than your scottish median average is. Does that sound fair enough?

---

"The mean is typically better when the data follow a symmetric distribution. When the data are skewed, the median is more useful because the mean will be distorted by outliers.”


Sounds like median is a better method where edinburgh and Aberdeen are skewed one way while Inverclyde and east ayrshire are skewed the other. If government use a particular method there's probably a good reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

The total number of residential property sales for 2021-2022 was 101,055, a decrease of 7.9% when compared with 2021-22.

The average price of a residential property in Scotland was £216,337, an increase of 7.1% when compared with 2021-22

The total value of the residential sales market in Scotland was £21.9 billion, a decrease of 1.4% when compared with 2021-22.

https://www.ros.gov.uk/data-and-stat...report-2022-23

However, there are significant regional variations at work. The rural property market seems worryingly inflated though. Alarming for younger people who live in areas like Western Isles, Orkney, Shetland, Argyll and Bute.

In Scotland, average prices increased by 7.3% in the year to September 2022, down from an increase of 8.8% in the year to August 2022.

Annual price change by local authority for Scotland

Low numbers of sales transactions in some local authorities, such as Orkney Islands, Na h-Eileanan Siar and Shetland Islands, can lead to volatility in the series.

Edinburgh's inflated prices......

Sept 2022 Sept 2021
City of Aberdeen £145,153 £148,697 -2.4%
City of Dundee £155,896 £143,331 8.8%
City of Edinburgh £337,087 £315,613 6.8%
City of Glasgow £176,087 £163,969 7.4%

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...september-2022

---

The number of £1million to £5 million pound houses sold in Edinburgh is bound to skew the average price upwards.

A calculation using house sales less than £ 1 million might give a more accurate average of what Edinburgh prices are for the majority of citizens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

"The mean is typically better when the data follow a symmetric distribution. When the data are skewed, the median is more useful because the mean will be distorted by outliers.”


Sounds like median is a better method where edinburgh and Aberdeen are skewed one way while Inverclyde and east ayrshire are skewed the other. If government use a particular method there's probably a good reason.

---

What’s the median for Edinburgh then?

Edit::You mention outliers. But the mean average I quoted was stripped of outliers. As I said in my post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

What’s the median for Edinburgh then?

Edit::You mention outliers. But the mean average I quoted was stripped of outliers. As I said in my post.

---

Explain why both the UK government and house letting agents use the same figures but you think that they are wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Explain why both the UK government and house letting agents use the same figures but you think that they are wrong.

---

I said that you using the Scottish median average could lead to false conclusions. It does. As you proved.

You said the Scottish median average was £185K and used that to make a point. But what you didn't answer was my question about the Edinburgh median average. It's around £100K higher. And the mean average in Edinburgh is well over £300K. That's a lot more relevant to people on here.

But if you won't answer about Edinburgh, what's the median average for Perth and Kinross?

I'm guessing it's significantly over £200K, quite a distance from your £185K figure. What do you think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I said that you using the Scottish median average could lead to false conclusions. It does. As you proved.

You said the Scottish median average was £185K and used that to make a point. But what you didn't answer was my question about the Edinburgh median average. It's around £100K higher. And the mean average in Edinburgh is well over £300K. That's a lot more relevant to people on here.

But if you won't answer about Edinburgh, what's the median average for Perth and Kinross?

I'm guessing it's significantly over £200K, quite a distance from your £185K figure. What do you think?

---

But isn't England still above both ways you measures it and that was the original point. I've been skimming to be honest because I'm not that interested in if the ONS are using the wrong system

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I said that you using the Scottish median average could lead to false conclusions. It does. As you proved.

You said the Scottish median average was £185K and used that to make a point. But what you didn't answer was my question about the Edinburgh median average. It's around £100K higher. And the mean average in Edinburgh is well over £300K. That's a lot more relevant to people on here.

But if you won't answer about Edinburgh, what's the median average for Perth and Kinross?

I'm guessing it's significantly over £200K, quite a distance from your £185K figure. What do you think?

---

I haven't a clue what edinburgh figures are, and to be honest, I don't care. The government published the figures, why not take it up with them if you are convinced that they are wrong. 🙄

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

But isn't England still above both ways you measures it and that was the original point. I've been skimming to be honest because I'm not that interested in if the ONS are using the wrong system

---

Agreed.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...record-levels/

Who could have predicted this though?[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

I haven't a clue what edinburgh figures are, and to be honest, I don't care. The government published the figures, why not take it up with them if you are convinced that they are wrong. ��

---

My point all along has been that you using the Scottish median average in the context you did could or would lead to false conclusions. I think we have established that.

As for government publications I’m more than confident that statisticians and data analysts from SG ASD, ISD, PHS, the Improvement Service, Healthcare Improvement Scotland, the other national scrutiny bodies and whoever else you like, would acknowledge the risks of making points based on single-source evidence, particularly using one type of average. It’s foolish, prone to inaccuracy and usually a political choice in my experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

My point all along has been that you using the Scottish median average in the context you did could or would lead to false conclusions. I think we have established that.

As for government publications I’m more than confident that statisticians and data analysts from SG ASD, ISD, PHS, the Improvement Service, Healthcare Improvement Scotland, the other national scrutiny bodies and whoever else you like, would acknowledge the risks of making points based on single-source evidence, particularly using one type of average. It’s foolish, prone to inaccuracy and usually a political choice in my experience.

---

But correct nonetheless. 😂😂

I'm not using anything other than published figures which are verified.


Edit : this from the UK government site.

Headline statistics for January 2023
The average price of a property in Scotland was
£185,016

The annual price change of a property in Scotland was
1.0%

The monthly price change of a property in Scotland was
-0.5%

The index figure for Scotland (January 2015 = 100) was
137.1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

My point all along has been that you using the Scottish median average in the context you did could or would lead to false conclusions. I think we have established that.

As for government publications I’m more than confident that statisticians and data analysts from SG ASD, ISD, PHS, the Improvement Service, Healthcare Improvement Scotland, the other national scrutiny bodies and whoever else you like, would acknowledge the risks of making points based on single-source evidence, particularly using one type of average. It’s foolish, prone to inaccuracy and usually a political choice in my experience.

---

Your acting like MY compiled the data. It's the office of national statistics that use these figures. Some of the best statisticians in the country at ONS will be looking at this thread with interest

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/housepriceindex/january2023#:~:text=The%20average%20UK%20house%20p rice,in%20Northern%20Ireland%20(10.2%25).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Your acting like MY compiled the data. It's the office of national statistics that use these figures. Some of the best statisticians in the country at ONS will be looking at this thread with interest

.

---

The way the discussion has gone I doubt anyone is looking at this thread now.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Your acting like MY compiled the data. It's the office of national statistics that use these figures. Some of the best statisticians in the country at ONS will be looking at this thread with interest

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/housepriceindex/january2023#:~:text=The%20average%20UK%20house%20p rice,in%20Northern%20Ireland%20(10.2%25).

---

Thanks, I said yesterday "don't shoot the messenger" but it looks like that's what is happening anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...record-levels/

Who could have predicted this though?[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

I agree, the right wing response to what are minor restrictions on rent increases for existing tenants has been all too predictable. :greengrin
There are multiple reasons why rents for new tenants are getting dearer, blaming this legislation alone is ludicrous. Rents are increasing at a similar rate in England, I may be wrong but I don’t think the Tories have enacted a rent freeze down there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

I agree, the right wing response to what are minor restrictions on rent increases for existing tenants has been all too predictable. :greengrin
There are multiple reasons why rents for new tenants are getting dearer, blaming this legislation alone is ludicrous. Rents are increasing at a similar rate in England, I may be wrong but I don’t think the Tories have enacted a rent freeze down there.

---

Rents are rising faster in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Rents are rising faster in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Less than a 1% difference isn’t it? Which suggests that my point about the rent increases being due to more than the minor restrictions on rent increases for existing tenants being the main driving force here may hold water.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Less than a 1% difference isn’t it? Which suggests that my point about the rent increases being due to more than the minor restrictions on rent increases for existing tenants being the main driving force here may hold water.

---

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fd23ae05b8.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fd23ae05b8.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

And the National figures? Having already seen an argument on the use of statistics here I don’t really want to go down that line but the national figures show a difference of about 0.5 %. (Google it.) xEven with your figures you can’t blame the small restrictions placed on landlords for the bulk of rent increases for new tenants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

And the National figures? Having already seen an argument on the use of statistics here I don’t really want to go down that line but the national figures show a difference of about 0.5 %. (Google it.) xEven with your figures you can’t blame the small restrictions placed on landlords for the bulk of rent increases for new tenants.

---

Obviously it’s impossible to tell…I mentioned earlier about the Gordon Knot of interventions and here we have a debate about yet another one!

But none the less to see both of Scotlands biggest cities in the top 3 of rental increases in the whole of the U.K. during a rather moribund period of economic activity is probably somewhat surprising.

Correlation and causation n all that and good luck to anyone trying to prove direct causation to one policy but none the less the weight of evidence on exactly the type of rental controls applied would suggest that yet again they have had a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention.

I’m sure Patrick Harvie and co think they have done a swell job and the link above shows how proud they are ‘leading the way’. Ultimately though to pretend you can control the cost of rents when interest rates have risen at an unprecedented rate to a level not seen for over a decade an a half is just a folly.

Add in an ever more inflationary tax regime (second house stamp duty, removal of tax breaks etc.) its madness to think you can just mandate 0% increases for x time then mandate 3% increase and then suggest you’ll control even more to make sure it’s ‘fair’.

All that happens is you layer more unintended consequences on top of more unintended consequences until guess what you end up in exactly the mess we see before us now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyeSloan

Obviously it’s impossible to tell…I mentioned earlier about the Gordon Knot of interventions and here we have a debate about yet another one!

But none the less to see both of Scotlands biggest cities in the top 3 of rental increases in the whole of the U.K. during a rather moribund period of economic activity is probably somewhat surprising.

Correlation and causation n all that and good luck to anyone trying to prove direct causation to one policy but none the less the weight of evidence on exactly the type of rental controls applied would suggest that yet again they have had a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention.

I’m sure Patrick Harvie and co think they have done a swell job and the link above shows how proud they are ‘leading the way’. Ultimately though to pretend you can control the cost of rents when interest rates have risen at an unprecedented rate to a level not seen for over a decade an a half is just a folly.

Add in an ever more inflationary tax regime (second house stamp duty, removal of tax breaks etc.) its madness to think you can just mandate 0% increases for x time then mandate 3% increase and then suggest you’ll control even more to make sure it’s ‘fair’.

All that happens is you layer more unintended consequences on top of more unintended consequences until guess what you end up in exactly the mess we see before us now.

---

So good luck to anyone attributing direct correlation to anyone policy, then immediately you state that the weight of evidence suggests that rent control have a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention?

The rise in rent for new tenants in Edinburgh and Glasgow, sitting at over 13% seems much more to do with profiteering landlords extorting all they can from a vulnerable marketplace. Are these not rises that are considerably greater than inflation or any rise in interest rates (bank of England base rate sitting at 5.25%)?

It's noticeable that the areas with higher than average increases are generally also where there's university students so a highr number of new tenancies each year.

As an aside, I know some students have kept their rental going over summer even though they've gone home just to lock in the level of rent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Just Alf

It's noticeable that the areas with higher than average increases are generally also where there's university students so a highr number of new tenancies each year.

As an aside, I know some students have kept their rental going over summer even though they've gone home just to lock in the level of rent.

---

You are correct on both points. That is one of the market distortions that happen with rent controls. People hang on to properties no matter how unsuitable for them because they want to lock in the price.
It doesn’t take long on google to read up on the history of failure around the world of this policy. It is surely a sign of madness that we think that in Scotland, we are the only people who can make it work? Are we special?
It’s not just the housing market this hurts. It will hurt the economy as well. Young people will be discouraged from moving here due to lack of houses available for rent. That will hurt employers. Students may drop out of courses as financial pressures hit. There are unintended consequences of this all over the place.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

So good luck to anyone attributing direct correlation to anyone policy, then immediately you state that the weight of evidence suggests that rent control have a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention?

The rise in rent for new tenants in Edinburgh and Glasgow, sitting at over 13% seems much more to do with profiteering landlords extorting all they can from a vulnerable marketplace. Are these not rises that are considerably greater than inflation or any rise in interest rates (bank of England base rate sitting at 5.25%)?

---

The exact effects of this policy that were predicted based on the evidence seen around the world where ever this policy has been tried are happening. You can blame it on something else if you like.
Name calling landlords doesn’t help. They at least had the good sense to oppose the policy and explain why.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The exact effects of this policy that were predicted based on the evidence seen around the world where ever this policy has been tried are happening. You can blame it on something else if you like.
Name calling landlords doesn’t help. They at least had the good sense to oppose the policy and explain why.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

So the only reason rents are rising for new tenants is because landlords were prevented from soaking their existing tenants so have been forced in to soaking new tenants instead?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

So the only reason rents are rising for new tenants is because landlords were prevented from soaking their existing tenants so have been forced in to soaking new tenants instead?

---

So they could have soaked both before? Why didn’t they?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

So the only reason rents are rising for new tenants is because landlords were prevented from soaking their existing tenants so have been forced in to soaking new tenants instead?

---

Amazingly, blatant exploitative profiteering isn’t recognised as a contributory factor in these stats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Amazingly, blatant exploitative profiteering isn’t recognised as a contributory factor in these stats.

---

When did landlords suddenly start doing this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

So good luck to anyone attributing direct correlation to anyone policy, then immediately you state that the weight of evidence suggests that rent control have a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention?

The rise in rent for new tenants in Edinburgh and Glasgow, sitting at over 13% seems much more to do with profiteering landlords extorting all they can from a vulnerable marketplace. Are these not rises that are considerably greater than inflation or any rise in interest rates (bank of England base rate sitting at 5.25%)?

---

Indeed.

Review any evidence or studies on housing market policies and you’ll see plenty of comment about how difficult it is to attribute specific changes in that market to specific policies.

However, rental controls have been tried in many guises in many places and have had many many studies.

You’ll be hard pressed to find any that come to a conclusion that they work as intended or do not have (sometimes significant) side effects or unintended consequences.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Amazingly, blatant exploitative profiteering isn’t recognised as a contributory factor in these stats.

---

Are you saying that Landords have been immune to Covid and the cost of living crisis?

That their mortgage, annual saftey inspections and any maintenance contractor costs haven't sky rocketed like they have for the rest of us?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Just Alf

Are you saying that Landords have been immune to Covid and the cost of living crisis?

That their mortgage, annual saftey inspections and any maintenance contractor costs haven't sky rocketed like they have for the rest of us?

---

No, I’m saying that there are people doing what people do and milking it to the maximum. There is plenty of evidence which suggests that a large number of landlords are doing exactly that.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000629150093

From about 22 mins in, there is a piece about housing and how Vienna is getting it right and we are getting it so wrong. There is even an example of rent control that works but I’d argue that the circumstances are so different that it just shows why it wouldn’t work here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000629150093

From about 22 mins in, there is a piece about housing and how Vienna is getting it right and we are getting it so wrong. There is even an example of rent control that works but I’d argue that the circumstances are so different that it just shows why it wouldn’t work here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Just possibly.

That's why you referring to a paper which talks about rent caps in places In the USA and Australia isn't that relevant to housing in Scotland either?

Interesting to read that the rent freeze has some reasonable exceptions to it.

Here's some circumstances whereby rent increases beyond the 3% might be made.

"Private rented sector exceptions to the cap
If a private landlord has incurred relevant costs in connection with the let tenancy in the 6 months prior to increasing the rent they may:

issue a valid rent increase notice

apply to Rent Service Scotland

prove to a rent officer that the increase is as a result of incurred costs

Relevant incurred costs are limited to:

mortgage or standard security interest

an insurance premium (other than general building and contents insurance)

service charges paid for by the landlord but the payment of which the tenant is responsible for under the tenancy.

https://scotland.shelter.org.uk/prof...n_ban_rent_cap

Shelter has an online petition to ask the Scottish Government not to cut social housing spending if anyone wishes to sign

https://act.scotland.shelter.org.uk/...er&utm_id=fa23

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Shelter has an online petition to ask the Scottish Government not to cut social housing spending if anyone wishes to sign

https://act.scotland.shelter.org.uk/...er&utm_id=fa23

---

Signed.

:top marks

Don't worry renters, the Tories are completely on your side and definitely don't have scarcely believable, absurdly elitist views about you. In fact, this is that Housing Minster making this completely clear:

"There are plenty of young people who are in the [private rented sector] who are not weed-smoking bad people, in gangs and crack dens and everything else and smashing up the neighbourhood," she said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66978108

The former chair of Tollcross community council told the Evening News: “Airbnb used to be just rooms in houses when people still lived in the property and I don’t have a problem with that. But when it’s eating up entire blocks of flats then it’s a huge issue. Areas of the city have become unsuitable for people to live in as a result. The photo of one block with notices for planning and licenses to me sums up the desperate situation. The sheer volume of short-term lets takes too many properties out of stock and rents go up. I am a long-term renter and I know I would find it impossible to get a place now. I think people have been pushed too far. They are fed up and just going for the nuclear option now. That’s why there’s tools online helping people to object to short-term let applications. I hope they enforce these rules. Things need to change in favour of the residents.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...centre-4357899

This must be having a huge impact on the housing availability and rent prices in Edinburgh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Shelter has an online petition to ask the Scottish Government not to cut social housing spending if anyone wishes to sign

https://act.scotland.shelter.org.uk/...er&utm_id=fa23

---

Signed. As someone who works in the Social Housing sector I cannot stress enough how devastating these cuts would be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Shelter has an online petition to ask the Scottish Government not to cut social housing spending if anyone wishes to sign

https://act.scotland.shelter.org.uk/...er&utm_id=fa23

---

Done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

No, I’m saying that there are people doing what people do and milking it to the maximum. There is plenty of evidence which suggests that a large number of landlords are doing exactly that.

---

i was speaking to someone today who has been trying to get a flat to rent in Edinburgh for ages - they finally got to view one, only to be told that due to the massive demand, the landlord had put his price up by several hundred pounds.

the problem is that people can't tell the difference between the market and their own morality - it's why the world is burning. i hope, one day, that the above landlord realises what an utter scalping **** he's been and feels the appropriate amount of guilt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper

i was speaking to someone today who has been trying to get a flat to rent in Edinburgh for ages - they finally got to view one, only to be told that due to the massive demand, the landlord had put his price up by several hundred pounds.

the problem is that people can't tell the difference between the market and their own morality - it's why the world is burning. i hope, one day, that the above landlord realises what an utter scalping **** he's been and feels the appropriate amount of guilt.

---

When you have more buyers than sellers then prices rise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

When you have more buyers than sellers then prices rise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Spoken like a true Tory. The market is king and that is the way it must always be. :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Spoken like a true Tory. The market is king and that is the way it must always be. :greengrin

---

It’s just a fact. You don’t need to be a Tory to know that.
Everyone seems to understand supply and demand with housing when it comes to short term lets but put the blinkers on with every other issue with the housing market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s just a fact. You don’t need to be a Tory to know that.
Everyone seems to understand supply and demand with housing when it comes to short term lets but put the blinkers on with every other issue with the housing market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

it's not a fact, it's an interpretation that's been normalised by decades of neo-liberalism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper

it's not a fact, it's an interpretation that's been normalised by decades of neo-liberalism.

---

No, it’s a fact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Spoken like a true Tory. The market is king and that is the way it must always be. :greengrin

---

It's just common sense. It's horrible when it happens to something that should be a given like a roof over our heads, but simple economics.

That doesn’t mean you can't do anything like increase housebuilding, especially social housing. But unfortunately when there is less of something price goes up. Its up to the government to sort that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

No, it’s a fact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

I don't think you know what the word 'fact' means

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper

I don't think you know what the word 'fact' means

---

I’m sure you can give an example to show I’m wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im a landlord and just reduced my tenants rent by £200 for the next 6 months because he’s had a bit of a setback and he has a new baby on the way. He already pays below market rent for it.

There are good landlords out there!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hibs4185

Im a landlord and just reduced my tenants rent by £200 for the next 6 months because he’s had a bit of a setback and he has a new baby on the way. He already pays below market rent for it.

There are good landlords out there!

---

Some landlords are richer than others.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk