It is is true or it isn't. The Scottish Government does not have a fixed budget. By all means argue for wider tax raising powers, but you don't help your case by leading with things that aren't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
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It is is true or it isn't. The Scottish Government does not have a fixed budget. By all means argue for wider tax raising powers, but you don't help your case by leading with things that aren't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
https://theferret.scot/claim-scottis...xed-half-true/Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
From the article you cite:Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
However, the budget in Scotland can be altered each year by devolved and partially-devolved taxation, such as council tax and the Scottish rate of income tax. The Scottish Government has limited borrowing powers.
You said it was either true or not true. It's neither one extreme or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Also from the article (just above the part you selectively quoted):
The largest part of Scotland’s budget – the block grant – is effectively fixed. The block grant is affected by changes to UK Government spending in England, which then filters through to the Scottish Government.
I accept the scope for nuance, but you said it was fixed. Then you said it was pedantic to say it wasn't fixed. You then cite an article that says the claim the budget is fixed is only half true. And then complain when I highlight the bit of the article that demonstrates tax varying powers. Even the part you have highlighted qualifies the fixed statement by prefacing it with 'effectively '. I rest my case.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
You haven't though. You're simply saying it's untrue, which is in itself untrue. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by archie
The Barnett Formula provides Scotland with a fixed sum. What Scotland can reasonably raise through devolved taxation has it's limits and what Scotland can borrow on an annual basis is also limited by a fixed sum.
So yes, there's some minor leeway when it comes to devolved taxation, but there's ultimately a very limited ceiling when it comes to Scotland's annual budget. Compare that to Westminster itself which doesn't really have any ceiling at all. They can borrow on a need by basis without having to worry about hitting some imposed limit.
So not fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Refer back to post #3998. We're not doing this again.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...scheme-4042378
Westminster to block deposit return scheme.
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To be fair, although the majority support recycling, however this ill thought out system is an absolute farce adding extra cost to the public at initial purchase during a credit crisis. The return to a centre which could be many miles away could be difficult for many, plus the added stupidity of things like if the can/tin is bashed or crushed it won’t be accepted. This needs to looked at again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Aren't they just describing the cops that are looking into it? As in, they're cops that investigate frauds.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
Fraud Squad used to be a regularly used term, would that be better?!!
I really don't see the issue here. I'd have thought the talking point would be the fact that there is an investigation and that the cops are involved, not the Daily Record's headline about it.
Maybe it will get discussed more in the coming days as we find out more.
It’s not a credit crisis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
And that’s not the point. The fact is that Westminster are once again blocking the Scottish parliament.
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Rather that than another useless piece of legislation that will effect manyQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I didn't realise it wouldn't be currently legal due to the internal market act and they knew that. It's like they are choosing things they know aren't legal so they can be refused and score points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
We should be able to do it, but that's not the same. We should control our corporation tax but that's not devolved so if we change it we know it will be refused
The Infernal Markets Act is a blatant attack on devolution and IMO the Scottish Government should breach it daily until we can have a judicial review and hopefully, have the damned thing repealed. Or just have independence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Wasn’t the deposit return scheme planned before the internal market act?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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No idea. Have the 3 candidates for FM not all stated they would pause this legislation anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Only for small business. It needs to happen though eventually. I guess we will just need to wait until England decides it wants to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa Cruz
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Thanks, I'm trying to just pay attention to how it impacts consumers (me). Seems sensible to me to make it a UK wide roll out. Hopefully by that time inflation will have came down which would make this new policy more affordable and successful in achieving its aims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...BCScotlandNews
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Be as well closing Holyrood as well I guess.[emoji849]Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa Cruz
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That's the long term aim, isn't it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
No defo keep it open, just need to have policies where future legislation is not so flawed and in this case rushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The Scottish Government just needs to have policies that the UK Government approves of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa Cruz
Or are as well thought out, planned and implemented as the current UK governments[emoji23][emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump
Absolutely U turn proof, like trussonomics for example. Strong and stable!
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In the 2 areas the UK Gov have signalled (they've not issued a S35 for the DRR yet) a clash of legislation, are either of these policies in their current form popular with Scottish voters? Looks like the approval is not there from voters either imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump
So no difficult decisions then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa Cruz
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Not sure what you mean? Are you acknowledging the policies as they stand aren't popular with voters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The decisions and spirit of both the Acts have public approval, however the mechanics and the way it will impact on the Scottish public show how poorly it has been thought out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Forbes: 'Bottle scheme could cause economic carnage'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64785574
With all 3 leadership candidates criticising the scheme it seems likely to be put on the back burner - or become part of a nationwide rollout.
Combined with the sidelining of the gender reforms, this will hopefully see the toxic Greens on their way out of power.
Don't worry, it won't be long before section 35s are issued for policies that aren't as contentious. This is just an exercise in conditioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa Cruz
I'm not worried about section 35's becoming the norm. There's only been one issued in over 20 years. I don't disagree with either policy (made clear in other posts/threads) but they do need amended.Quote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
Could only see the Greens leaving if Forbes or Regan is appointed.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
In yesterday's Lorna Slater interview the published quotes came from she also said the shed been in talks with a minister in UK Gov and that it had been signalled that the internal market bill wouldn't be an issue.
Winder why they've changed their mind?
Uk government said she hadn't and asked her to show any email correspondence saying the opposite. Her interview has obviously went viral for being a car crash, but it is ridiculous her saying they might change parts of it like for small businesses just two days before the deadline. She's so obviously in above her headQuote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
That was always Sturgeon's tactic. Manufacture grievances with Westminster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
As with the gender reforms fiasco, public opinion would be with the UK government if they were compelled to pause this shambolic initiative. It won't get that far though, because whoever becomes the new FM will be putting it on hold, or even ditching it completely.
https://www.ft.com/content/0668efbd-ca9c-4b8b-a1c1-0c2adcd75348Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Key to his decision to abandon the Tories now is his belief, based on discussions with party insiders, that Prime Minister Rishi Sunak will ramp up the so-called culture wars as a central part of his 2024 election strategy.
“It was made pretty clear the plan is to run a culture war to distract from fundamental economic failings,” Anderson said. “It’s not something I want any part of.”
Yep, because she really needed to do that. It's not as if there are any legitimate grievances such as Brexit, tory governments that we don't vote for or "opposition" parties at Westminster that are a pale imitation of the same thing at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
That would be the gender reforms "fiasco" that was backed by 2/3rds of MSPs in parliament. A bill that Spain also introduced on the exact same day, without any of the hyperbole or major backlash from their media or population. A bill that's effectively be in force in the ROI since 2015 without people there really taking much notice of it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
But hey ho, the Daily Mail and Express had some tasty headlines and they are the true governing powers. Never mind the people we actually elect.
You think the Mail and Express hold that much influence over the people of Scotland? Do they even sell enough papers up here to influence anything?
You said yourself you have extreme left wing views. Could it maybe be your interpretation of things at play here? It seems to be one conspiracy after another!
I think the people of Scotland are far smarter than you think.
That they don’t agree with your politics doesn’t mean they’re short of intelligence or unable to follow politics with as much scrutiny as yourself.
They certainly have enough influence to have kept going all of these years and to be front and centre piece of every newspaper rack across the country. Not to mention enough of an influence to have their headlines referenced in the mainstream media each day.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
No I never.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
Of course it's my interpretation of things. Everybody has their own interpretations, there would never be anything to talk about otherwise, unless you prefer echo chambers.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
You don't know what I think about how smart I think Scottish people are in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
I never said they were. You're making that assertion.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..
I'm confused as to why this deposit return scheme is considered so controversial. It's a fairly simple incentive to encourage recycling that's already used in a number of other countries.
When I lived in Germany, I didn't find it a particularly large burden to take my collection of bottles to the deposit return machine at Ald, Lidl, etc, when I did the shopping.
I just read an article that says Austria is planning the same...
"Austria has announced a 25-cent deposit will be levied on plastic bottles and aluminium cans, according to the Climate Protection Ministry.
From 2025, consumers will be able to return the items to any seller of these products and get €0.25 back on the price they paid.
"Austria is getting a deposit system. This way, we protect our nature and ensure that plastic bottles and cans are recycled properly", Environment Minister Leonore Gewessler (Greens) said."
https://www.thelocal.at/20220913/aus...lastic-bottles
Like the with the GRR stuff we are clearly too wee and stupid to be able to do it. Thankfully we have a benevolent, philanthropic and wiser neighbour to deal with this sort of stuff for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
Because any idea that is remotely progressive in the UK these days is "far left extremism" according to the highest selling and most frequently quoted newspapers. That really is where we're at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
Not controversial just incompetently handled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
Not at all. I think you give the press way too much credit though.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee
The Mail and Express are 'the true governing powers'?
Nah, not even close.
Austrian scheme doesn't include glass. Also, unclear from the article about the implications for manufacturing as opposed to retailers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
In what way?
(genuine question, no digs implied :-) )
Putting Lorna Slater in charge of it for one. An opt-out from the UK Internal Market Act is required for the scheme even to proceed (something businesses have been pointing out for some time) yet she now admits she has yet to apply for an exemption (while still expecting participants to sign up by tomorrow's deadline). Despite insisting it was 'full steam ahead' for a full August rollout just a few days ago she's rowed back today and accepted smaller businesses my need a year's grace period (yet, again, still wants them to sign up by tomorrow).Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
These guys are hilariousQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Truely bizarre
https://twitter.com/TesScotland/stat...J2AjY7rFg&s=19
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I still don’t understand the reason for the 20p. Also the whole scheme only benefits big businessQuote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
It benefits the environment first and foremost. Saving the planet will come at a cost, not saving it an even bigger one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
thanks for not answering my questionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Reduces the work of the Councils who currently pick up recycling, just means they're picking up less. The 20p is the incentive to encourage people to participate. Say if you pay £4 more for cans of drink, you're only way to get that back is to recycle using one of the machines (there might be other ways like in-store, not too sure).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
I didn't see a question mark never mind a question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
these recycling machines will only be available by companies that can afford them ie big supermarkets, therefore more chance you’ll go there and shop than use small stores. People already use 3-4 bins without a 20p incentive so why start now. Also reduces the chances of buying 20p more expensive single cans and bottles and will increase big multipack boxes in supermarket deals which small shops can’t compete with. And this without all the problems that small independent distilleries have highlighted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa Cruz
It applies to multipacks too, 20p x however many drinks in single containers in the multipacks. I agree the recycling system we have just now does seem adequate, think the SG are looking to increase participation further by introducing this new system. They'll obvs be thinking of the environmental benefits of the increased uptake, but also decreasing the work of the LA workers who collect and process recycling from all homes. I think the Agency responsible for implementation has been given a fair bit money, I imagine this is to help business, then eventually smaller shops. I mind being well miffed when I smoked and they stopped smoking in indoor public spaces, now think it was a brilliant policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
I’m all for the policy, businesses still need answers and reassurances on how it will all work and affect them initially. Something no politician has been able to provide yet which is flaming all the backlashQuote:
Originally Posted by Santa Cruz
I never go to the supermarket and already recycle all these items in the council recycling boxes that get collected from my front door. These collections will still happen so if I then have to drive to a supermarket to recycle some items then surely that’s harming the environment by adding more car journeys?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
If everyone behaved like you it wouldn’t be needed but that’s not the case. We are currently only recycling about 50% of containers compared with 90%+ in countries with the deposit return scheme.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibee
I’ve no idea if the SG is ready properly for this scheme but I’m 110% convinced it’s needed and that it’s not hard to do. If the SG is not ready then it needs paused but it def still needs to happen. And if it’s not ready then Slater needs sacked and someone competent brought in to deliver it.
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👏👏 what most businesses have been saying for monthsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
How do you buy food? Online retailers are obliged to collect containers for those that get home deliveriesQuote:
Originally Posted by hibee
Circularity Scotland, the organisation responsible for managing the scheme, has literally been set up by businesses. It's self administered with the businesses producing the vast majority of waste onboard :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
If anybody actually wants to read how it will work, who's responsible for what, who the members are, or if youre struggling to sleep it's all on here.
https://circularityscotland.com/abou...-administrator
I don't think there's a single country that rolled out the scheme without it having to be tweaked afterwards. It's like most things, it won't be perfect at first but people and the system will adapt. It would appear that Scotland is the only country that has to get new legislation 100% right before it can be implemented. Nothing will change if the bar is set that high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Imagine a society where business called the shots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berwickhibby
It's intentionally set impossibly high to prevent it from happening. There's a hugely anti-progressive agenda flowing through UK politics and media which has a major influence over peoples views. Even if people like to pretend that they're totally not influenced by the media.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Like you say, it doesn't appear to apply to other countries who just get on with it. The UK is trapped in a conservative economic and sociopolitical time capsule, despite the ever increasing long term damage that it has caused.
The only thing it appears we are able to do is find problems for every solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Depending where you live it's still perfectly feasible to do your food shopping at local shops rather than supermarkets, which I'm guessing is what he means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Grieves
Drinks retailers are legally obliged to take part in the scheme including local shops, so where is the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
We are not aware of any funding being available to support the Deposit Return Scheme implementation.Quote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
there’s a big problem for small businesses selling these products and having to pay for RVM on site.
I wasn't referring to the scheme, just responding to someone who seemed to be implying supermarkets were the only places to buy day-to-day food. Might have misunderstood his post tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Grieves
But you do have to consider unintended consequences and knock on effects. The DRS doesn’t cover glassware for food packaging. But some local authorities are scrapping glass collection citing DRS. So where does all the glassware go that isn't covered by DRS? Most likely landfill. That can't be an outcome anyone wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Those are things that are ironed out once the scheme is up and running.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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Why are they waiting until then? If a poster is aware of this, why would a Gov Dept not have considered this and found a solution prior to rolling it out? It seems like it's more important to be the first nation in the UK to launch this policy, than to identify and address the problems prior to the launch, which in turn would make it more succesful. I don't even know if plastic milk bottles that I currently recycle along with my other drink containers are included in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Surely not. Teething troubles are ironed out, not fundamentals. Just to be clear, I think the principle of the scheme is fine, but the execution is all over the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Which local authorities are doing this? Wouldn't be Labour run LAs who are proposing to do this for some political motive? Maybe I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see evidence of LAs suggesting this.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Falkirk have said they will stop collecting from September. Others have raised some concerns.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
https://www.letsrecycle.com/news/don...out-zws-urges/
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/...ealed-jobs-go/Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Glasgow and Falkirk are saying they are ending glass pick up both snp. Surely have to add glass jars to the scheme so people don't start throwing them in landfill?Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Edit answered above
Well that's disappointing. As you say, needs to be addressed. Perhaps noteworthy that neither has an SNP overall majority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I'm sure everything can be ironed out pretty easily, it's getting to much press than it deserves.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Some others don't offer it at the moment! I have to take glass to the recycling centre. But we are getting another bin just for paper and cardboard!Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
West Lothian has never offered glass pick up as far as I know
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Hadn't realised that. Google says " Currently in Scotland, households in 16 out of the 32 Local Authorities receive some form glass kerbside collection. However, out of the 16 Local Authorities, not all householders are fully served by a kerbside system³¹. For example, Glasgow excludes high densely populated areas."Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
I do it all online and have it delivered, I hadn’t read the deposit return scheme in full but have just read the website, seems the online retailers won’t have to bother collecting anything until at least 2025, text below from the deposit return website:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Grieves
“On 15 December 2022, the Minister for Green Skills, Circular Economy and Biodiversity proposed to bring forward amendments to the Regulations so that initially only the largest grocery supermarkets will be obliged to provide a takeback service for online orders; all other businesses will be exempt from online takeback.
A new date was proposed for takeback to be available to the public in 2025. Any potential amendments to the Regulations will need to be approved by the Scottish Parliament before taking effect.”
I caught a bit of an interview with Lorna Slater on Sunday, one of the benefits she mentioned was not having broken alcohol bottles all over the streets, I can’t imagine that the drunk teenagers (and older idiots) will stop and think twice because they want to go back and collect 20p, this all seems a bit like punishing the whole class at school because one idiot is misbehaving!
Silly question, but what happens if a producer decides not to sign up to the DR'S by today's deadline? Surely they can still produce and sell but the machine will reject them??
According to the man from Innis & Gunn who was on the tv on Sunday he said they would be banned from trading in Scotland if they didn’t sign up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
They can't sell in Scotland anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
https://www.letsrecycle.com/news/pro...ering-for-drs/
Although I am unsure who is checking and what actual offence is being committed if they do.
https://twitter.com/ScotSecofState/s...yK9Cf2NFQ&s=19
"Alister Jack: No UKG ministers have received a formal request setting out the scope & rationale for a UKIM exemption for the SG's DRS. Should a request be received, it will be considered by the relevant W’hall depts. As I have set out, the bar for a UKIM exemption is very high."
Take the politics out of this for a minute, the deadline for registration is tonight and the Scottish Government (Lorna Slater) hasn't done one of the most critical and fundamental things it needs to do.
Slater should be binned, not recycled.
Labour have just called for her to be dropped from the schemeQuote:
Originally Posted by James310
@SundayTimesSco
·
🔺NEW. Labour calling on Green minister Lorna Slater to quit over deposit return scheme "chaos", saying she has lost control of the scheme and lost the confidence of Scotland's small businesses
Ah, the UK internal market act that wasn't supported by the devolved governments in Scotland and Wales because they warned it was attack on devolution. They were right.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56800830
Hold on a minute. When you have a Government Minister saying it's full steam ahead while all of the candidates for FM are giving different views as to whether it will even happen then that's worthy of attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Innis & Gunn boss: 'I will not register for Deposit Return Scheme'. We have been advised from the highest levels that we should not sign the producer’s agreement as the DRS is unworkable in its current format.” It can’t be implemented if companies refuse.
Only 14.7% of the 4500 producers circularity Scotland expected to sign up by the deadline have. Rumours suppliers have been privately told it will be delayed
I just saw a headline saying producers of 95% of Scottish drinks sold had signed up? I guess both could be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I think it’s inevitable it gets delayed then depending on who wins leadership election it will either proceed or be stopped.
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90% of products sold most are from about 20 companies though. Most small producers haven't, so grand if you want Tennents or Coke but not ipa from a small companyQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I’m sure that small changes will be made and grace periods given to the smaller producers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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Slater said on Sunday they were considering giving small producers 12 extension. Baffling they were still mulling it 2 days before deadlineQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Would make sense... its a bit of a mare how it seems to be getting implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I like the current system, just a shame so many don't use it/do it properly meaning this new scheme is needed.
Yup, she also said that discussion had been had with Westminster (she said who it was, Teresa C???) But feels like it's been 'talks' and no official request .... assuming who you belive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7