The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I get that your devotion to the SNP compels you to downplay each and every hint of discord, but this is an issue which has split the party like no other and has understandably sparked widespread media coverage for months now. I'm not surprised they're desperate to put a lid on it.

From my point of view, I'd be strongly opposed to this ill-concieved bill whichever party had brought it to life and I hope common sense will prevail in terms of a rethink. However, if the furore around it means an ongoing feud within the SNP then that's a welcome bonus.

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Except when 2 MPs and others left and formed a new party because of a different issue

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Not sure if this should have been on the BBC bias thread but it covers this one as well. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but they do need a story eh. :wink:

Massive so it is. :wink:

https://twitter.com/BronzeBullyTime/...19487532802050

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I reckon both groups together amounted to no more than 250-300 evenly distributed. It started at 11 and both were breaking up about 2 to 2:30.

There was a lot of shouting at one end and singing and dancing at the other.

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Originally Posted by hibby rae

Except when 2 MPs and others left and formed a new party because of a different issue

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That is probably what is stopping Joanna Cherry leaving.


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Originally Posted by hibby rae

Except when 2 MPs and others left and formed a new party because of a different issue

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Yeh, I did consider that but thought the party were privately quite glad to be shot of those two. The 'gender rebels', particularly if they stick around, are going to prove more of a persistent thorn in the SNP's side.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I think the women won't wheesht group need to be aware who are attaching themselves to the rallies they're having.

Manky Jaiket (A force for good)
Andy Ngo
National Housing Party
Scottish Family Party
Max Dunbar, formerly of the BNP

Strange bedfellows indeed.

I know some women who called out Dunbar, but they really need to watch out who's turning up on their side of the argument.

https://twitter.com/EuanYours/status...42116629250048

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https://wingsoverscotland.com/different-cultures/

The other side, meanwhile, continue to display how open-minded they are when it comes to sign-writing.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I get that your devotion to the SNP compels you to downplay each and every hint of discord, but this is an issue which has split the party like no other and has understandably sparked widespread media coverage for months now. I'm not surprised they're desperate to put a lid on it.

From my point of view, I'd be strongly opposed to this ill-concieved bill whichever party had brought it to life and I hope common sense will prevail in terms of a rethink. However, if the furore around it means an ongoing feud within the SNP then that's a welcome bonus.

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Party politics aside, are you strongly opposed to it completely, or was it just certain aspects of it you're not happy about? How do you feel about the Gillian Martin amendment, for instance?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://wingsoverscotland.com/different-cultures/

The other side, meanwhile, continue to display how open-minded they are when it comes to sign-writing.

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Stuart Campbell belongs in that same list. Another character who has gone completely off the rails. I'm sure I saw a tweet of his not too long ago claiming that he was campaigning for the tory MP in his constituency for the next election. Very much on the same side it would seem.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://wingsoverscotland.com/different-cultures/

The other side, meanwhile, continue to display how open-minded they are when it comes to sign-writing.

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You might be happy for the women to stand with those groups indicated. Not sure they'd like to be associated with them though.

The wider point which you spectacularly missed is that meetings/rallies can be infiltrated by a small group of people not really interested in the outcomes of the rally.

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

A Holocaust denier, anti-abortionists, anti-feminists and fascists at a rally for women's rights. I guess the organisers were just unlucky

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I've purposely avoided this thread because it is extremely upsetting to see people in my community and a group that contains some of my close friends attacked daily in the mainstream media and by prominent figureheads let alone on this forum, but it is really worrying that this bile has been brought into my country and is simply reported as a woman's rights march. The above quote sums it up. It is ****ing terrifying. People are going to get killed.

Btw, I'm not here for a debate, anyone defending these people have been blocked. No.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

You might be happy for the women to stand with those groups indicated. Not sure they'd like to be associated with them though.

The wider point which you spectacularly missed is that meetings/rallies can be infiltrated by a small group of people not really interested in the outcomes of the rally.

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Where have I said I'm happy about that? I've said nothing at all about the groups you listed. And if anything my post endorses your point about rallies being infiltrated by bampots, as was the recent one with the nutjob brandishing the 'decapitate all terfs' sign.

Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

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I'm pretty sure she didn't say such even though I've not seen the conference in question. I'm also pretty sure that your thinly veiled rhetoric that constantly links transsexuals to rapist borders on hate speech. I'm surprised it's tolerated.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Stuart Campbell belongs in that same list. Another character who has gone completely off the rails. I'm sure I saw a tweet of his not too long ago claiming that he was campaigning for the tory MP in his constituency for the next election. Very much on the same side it would seem.

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Since his arrest and subsequent release he's pivoted on most of views.

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Here is an American account of the Question Time debate, I think some people thought that when they saw Jenny Gilruth tying herself in knots with gender ideology politics, that Ella Whelan was attacking the SNP, I don't think that's the case at all because either Joanna Cherry or Ash Regan, would have made the same basic points that Ella Whelan made, that when 'I identify as' is taken seriously rather than the reality of biological sex, biological woman will suffer, in woman only spaces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0cbQY0PKv4

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I'm pretty sure she didn't say such even though I've not seen the conference in question. I'm also pretty sure that your thinly veiled rhetoric that constantly links transsexuals to rapist borders on hate speech. I'm surprised it's tolerated.

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Why do you feel that both Nicola Sturgeon and Jenny Gilruth now refuse to gender Bryson when Keith Brown was pretty clear she is a woman? Why can't she say Bryson is a woman and a rapist and will be treated as such. If the SG policy is someone is a woman if they say they are then follow through on that policy surely?

If you don't know then neither does anyone else and that's why questions are being asked, that seemingly won't be answered.

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Originally Posted by McSwanky

Party politics aside, are you strongly opposed to it completely, or was it just certain aspects of it you're not happy about? How do you feel about the Gillian Martin amendment, for instance?

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“Party politics aside” 😂 good luck with that.

It’s the absolute only reason he’s on this thread/board every day.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I'm pretty sure she didn't say such even though I've not seen the conference in question. I'm also pretty sure that your thinly veiled rhetoric that constantly links transsexuals to rapist borders on hate speech. I'm surprised it's tolerated.

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There's no veil, thin or otherwise, around my 'rhetoric'. I think it's fair comment to point out the obvious, that 'the rapist' is a man. It's tolerated because it's the truth.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

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By “sounds like” do you mean you didn’t actually see it (similar to how you don’t tend to read the links you constantly post because you sense some anti-sturgeon in them) but went ahead and made up a lot of ***** and followed it with the “lost the plot” tagline.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

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Why won’t she answer the question? It makes no sense!

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Originally Posted by McSwanky

Party politics aside, are you strongly opposed to it completely, or was it just certain aspects of it you're not happy about? How do you feel about the Gillian Martin amendment, for instance?

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Sorry, missed this earlier. I support the Martin/Greene amendment. Any rational person would. My opposition to the bill is, like most opponents, centred around the introduction of self-ID, the removal of any meaningful checks and balances for most wishing to transition and making it easier for children to embark on potentially irreversible procedures.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Sorry, missed this earlier. I support the Martin/Greene amendment. Any rational person would. My opposition to the bill is, like most opponents, centred around the introduction of self-ID, the removal of any meaningful checks and balances for most wishing to transition and making it easier for children to embark on potentially irreversible procedures.

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Thanks for taking the time to answer. So is there anything that would make it acceptable in your view? Any tweaks or amendments? Or is it simply beyond repair? What meaningful checks and balance (whatever that phrase means! [emoji16]) would you propose?

Does the amendment in your view deal with the likes of the Isla Bryson case?

The point re children I'm also interested in. As I've mentioned before, my two kids have multiple peers in their schools who identify as different to the sex they were born with, and from where I'm sitting the kids just accept this and it's not treated as in any way strange (any more than enjoying Maths or the like is anyway!) In what way does this legislation make it easier for children to embark on irreversible procedures?

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Originally Posted by James310

Why do you feel that both Nicola Sturgeon and Jenny Gilruth now refuse to gender Bryson when Keith Brown was pretty clear she is a woman? Why can't she say Bryson is a woman and a rapist and will be treated as such. If the SG policy is someone is a woman if they say they are then follow through on that policy surely?

If you don't know then neither does anyone else and that's why questions are being asked, that seemingly won't be answered.

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I've no idea why Sturgeon or Gilruth refuse to gender Bryson. I can only assume that they are waiting for a full assessment from experts of what is an exceptionally unusual state of affairs. But what I won't do is demonise the vast majority of transsexuals based on one or two isolated cases of perverts trying to play the law.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I've no idea why Sturgeon or Gilruth refuse to gender Bryson

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Neither does anyone else so it's reasonable to ask that question if they continue to refuse to answer it, they surely either believe Bryson is a woman or a man. Imagine not being able to answer a fundamental question such as that.

But why do you think Keith Brown does not need this extra information and can gender Bryson as 'she' and be clear he thinks she is a woman? You must agree that at the very least there is a lack of consistency when one Government Minister can answer but another one can't when both are asked the same question.

But I go back to your point about needing extra information, how do you think that would be gathered under a process of self ID? I don't see how it can but maybe I am missing something.

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Originally Posted by McSwanky

Thanks for taking the time to answer. So is there anything that would make it acceptable in your view? Any tweaks or amendments? Or is it simply beyond repair? What meaningful checks and balance (whatever that phrase means! [emoji16]) would you propose?

Does the amendment in your view deal with the likes of the Isla Bryson case?

The point re children I'm also interested in. As I've mentioned before, my two kids have multiple peers in their schools who identify as different to the sex they were born with, and from where I'm sitting the kids just accept this and it's not treated as in any way strange (any more than enjoying Maths or the like is anyway!) In what way does this legislation make it easier for children to embark on irreversible procedures?

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I've posted at length on most of what you're asking there, but I don't expect you to trawl back through the thread to read up on my views...suffice to say I'm not convinced trans people require the additional rights this bill offers. They are offered security and protection by the 2010 Equality Act and while the 2004 GRA did impact on women's rights, it offered enough safeguards to reassure women that it would be difficult for bad faith actors to exploit it. I feel that any political goodwill which might have originally lain behind the proposed reforms has already been (predictably) overshadowed by the erosion of goodwill towards trans people due to the opportunities the legislation offers those bad faith actors to take advantage of it. If anything, the sweeping away of safeguards will undermine rather than enhance trans rights and make life harder for them.

Re children I think scant attention has been paid to the view that gender dysphoria can be transient and associated with issues such as puberty (and its attendant discomforts), coming to terms with same sex attraction, childhood trauma or even conditions like autism etc. I think the approach of discredited charities like Mermaids and their insistence that gender dysphoria is always indicative of a fixed trans identity is hugely dangerous and can lead to ill-advised medical treatment that may well be regretted. Like your kids, mine are very relaxed about the number of their peers who identify as a different gender and I myself find it quite uplifting to see the number of young people who are clearly adopting a 'gender fluid' approach to life. However, I think reducing the age at which kids can make what can be irreversible changes in that direction is a step too far.

In short, I don't believe Sturgeon has shown herself capable of legislating on these issues and the bill should be either, as Joanna Cherry advocates, signifcantly amended, or simply set aside as a badly bungled piece of legislation.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

By “sounds like” do you mean you didn’t actually see it (similar to how you don’t tend to read the links you constantly post because you sense some anti-sturgeon in them) but went ahead and made up a lot of ***** and followed it with the “lost the plot” tagline.

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You seem to reckon you know what I think and do pretty well. What are your own views on whether Bryson is a man, woman...or the new third sex 'rapist'?

In answer to your question, I read the reports of the press conference then viewed it see if Sturgeon really did get herself into as big a pickle as was reported. Turns out she did. After over a week of failing to answer a simple question she now has no alternative to maintaining this ridiculous 'the individual is a rapist' line because if she concedes he's a man she undermines her own legislation (which she claimed nobody would exploit) and if she says he's a woman (ie a woman who can commit rape) she just looks daft.

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Originally Posted by James310

Neither does anyone else so it's reasonable to ask that question if they continue to refuse to answer it, they surely either believe Bryson is a woman or a man. Imagine not being able to answer a fundamental question such as that.

But why do you think Keith Brown does not need this extra information and can gender Bryson as 'she' and be clear he thinks she is a woman? You must agree that at the very least there is a lack of consistency when one Government Minister can answer but another one can't when both are asked the same question.

But I go back to your point about needing extra information, how do you think that would be gathered under a process of self ID? I don't see how it can but maybe I am missing something.

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Why is your opinion different to mine James? People are allowed to have different opinions, even government ministers. That said, Gilruth and Sturgeon haven't really expressed an opinion by not "gendering" Bryson, maybe they are still waiting to form an opinion based on expert evaluation, what in my book seems a sensible thing to do and what will probably always happen in extreme circumstances like the Bryson case. You do accept that the Bryson case is an extreme example or do you believe that all transsexuals need to be put under the microscope?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I've posted at length on most of what you're asking there, but I don't expect you to trawl back through the thread to read up on my views...suffice to say I'm not convinced trans people require the additional rights this bill offers. They are offered security and protection by the 2010 Equality Act and while the 2004 GRA did impact on women's rights, it offered enough safeguards to reassure women that it would be difficult for bad faith actors to exploit it. I feel that any political goodwill which might have originally lain behind the proposed reforms has already been (predictably) overshadowed by the erosion of goodwill towards trans people due to the opportunities the legislation offers those bad faith actors to take advantage of it. If anything, the sweeping away of safeguards will undermine rather than enhance trans rights and make life harder for them.

Re children I think scant attention has been paid to the view that gender dysphoria can be transient and associated with issues such as puberty (and its attendant discomforts), coming to terms with same sex attraction, childhood trauma or even conditions like autism etc. I think the approach of discredited charities like Mermaids and their insistence that gender dysphoria is always indicative of a fixed trans identity is hugely dangerous and can lead to ill-advised medical treatment that may well be regretted. Like your kids, mine are very relaxed about the number of their peers who identify as a different gender and I myself find it quite uplifting to see the number of young people who are clearly adopting a 'gender fluid' approach to life. However, I think reducing the age at which kids can make what can be irreversible changes in that direction is a step too far.

In short, I don't believe Sturgeon has shown herself capable of legislating on these issues and the bill should be either, as Joanna Cherry advocates, signifcantly amended, or simply set aside as a badly bungled piece of legislation.

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Fair play, a well constructed argument, and a lot more refreshing to read than the usual demands for a yes/no answer from the likes of Douglas Ross.

I'll forgive your slightly clumsy language around autism, but I take the point. I don't think anyone should be forced into life altering decisions in childhood, like you I'd like to think that changing attitudes in our younger generation will render this pretty much a moot point. Hopefully people can live the life they want to live without feeling pressured into going down an irreversible path.

I'm not that well up on what changes re women's rights in this bill I'm afraid, but what I do know is that we can't constantly legislate based on the worst case scenario - the vast majority of people want to get along. Of course there will be, as there always is, a small number of people who want to get around the law for whatever personal gain they are after, but these people must be treated separately from everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty has to apply here, and the amendment previously mentioned should hopefully deal with 'the guilty ones.'

As always, heavily caveated with 'I don't really know what I'm talking about' vibes on my part.

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Originally Posted by McSwanky

Fair play, a well constructed argument, and a lot more refreshing to read than the usual demands for a yes/no answer from the likes of Douglas Ross.

I'll forgive your slightly clumsy language around autism, but I take the point. I don't think anyone should be forced into life altering decisions in childhood, like you I'd like to think that changing attitudes in our younger generation will render this pretty much a moot point. Hopefully people can live the life they want to live without feeling pressured into going down an irreversible path.

I'm not that well up on what changes re women's rights in this bill I'm afraid, but what I do know is that we can't constantly legislate based on the worst case scenario - the vast majority of people want to get along. Of course there will be, as there always is, a small number of people who want to get around the law for whatever personal gain they are after, but these people must be treated separately from everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty has to apply here, and the amendment previously mentioned should hopefully deal with 'the guilty ones.'

As always, heavily caveated with 'I don't really know what I'm talking about' vibes on my part.

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Yeh, apologies if that didn't come across well. I work one-to-one with autistic kids on an almost daily basis at work so I hesitated to include that as it does merit careful wording. I just didn't want to end up typing so much that it would put you off trying to read it!

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Yeh, apologies if that didn't come across well. I work one-to-one with autistic kids on an almost daily basis at work so I hesitated to include that as it does merit careful wording. I just didn't want to end up typing so much that it would put you off trying to read it!

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No worries, I sometimes don't know what to say myself, and I should know!

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,h...on-gender-bill

52% of Scots asked said uk gov were right to block gra bill 32% said they were wrong. Much more interestingly whilst 52% of snp voters said they should not have blocked 31% said they should. Probably why it's not helped independence polling

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...s-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...s-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

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In finding the 11 year old girl who is missing?

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Originally Posted by Kato

In finding the 11 year old girl who is missing?

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The young girl is fairly local to me. Happy to reassure (for anyone that bizarrely would be in any doubt) that any feeling here is purely joy, gratitude, and relief at the lass being found safe and well, as opposed to linking any of the words used during efforts to find her to Nicola Sturgeon or her “difficulties”.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...s-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

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https://news.stv.tv/scotland/house-cordoned-off-and-man-arrested-after-search-for-missing-11-year-old-girl-in-galashiels

No mention!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64557459


Again, no mention!!

https://planetradio.co.uk/borders/local/news/gattonside-police-search-lockdown/


This is getting ridiculous the number of news outlets missing the story!!!

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

The young girl is fairly local to me. Happy to reassure (for anyone that bizarrely would be in any doubt) that any feeling here is purely joy, gratitude, and relief at the lass being found safe and well, as opposed to linking any of the words used during efforts to find her to Nicola Sturgeon or her “difficulties”.

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That's brilliant, R.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...s-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

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I can't read beyond the paywall but I've no idea what you are trying to do here.

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Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

I can't read beyond the paywall but I've no idea what you are trying to do here.

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Wasn't pay walled previously. Basically it said police Scotland are misgendering her as they are calling the kidnapper he, when they have identified as female for some years. Its the telegraph so could be rubbish, but I think that's roughly what it said

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Wasn't pay walled previously. Basically it said police Scotland are misgendering her as they are calling the kidnapper he, when they have identified as female for some years. Its the telegraph so could be rubbish, but I think that's roughly what it said

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Other sources say that they are cross dressing transvestite.

Not one scottish source even identify him that I've seen so far.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Wasn't pay walled previously. Basically it said police Scotland are misgendering her as they are calling the kidnapper he, when they have identified as female for some years. Its the telegraph so could be rubbish, but I think that's roughly what it said

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Who gives a flying one? Christ, the veins are bursting out the establishment's neck.

Should add my exasperation isn't aimed at you.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Other sources say that they are cross dressing transvestite.

Not one scottish source even identify him that I've seen so far.

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It's pretty much happening in real time. Some places naming him/her some not. Telegraph will be in bother if they have named her and its not. They also have tweets from her saying she's a female now.

It will all come out in the next few days so probably daft to speculate either way I suppose

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Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

Who gives a flying one? Christ, the veins are bursting out the establishment's neck.

Should add my exasperation isn't aimed at you.

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Yep it's just a beast and its probably in the wrong thread maybe.

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQ

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQ

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Whatever you've just tried to share is already down.

I can only judge then on your words. No empathy for folk dealing with trans decisions. Just acceptable collateral damage in the frenzied fight against the SNP?

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQ

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I lasted as long as it took her to claim that grass is an inanimate object.

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Originally Posted by Kato

In finding the 11 year old girl who is missing?

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In bringing some consistency to the issue. IIRC Police Scotland are these days meant to record incidents according to the gender those involved identify as.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/house-cordoned-off-and-man-arrested-after-search-for-missing-11-year-old-girl-in-galashiels

No mention!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64557459


Again, no mention!!

https://planetradio.co.uk/borders/local/news/gattonside-police-search-lockdown/


This is getting ridiculous the number of news outlets missing the story!!!

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I imagine now that the 'individual' has been named we'll see the story across most of tomorrow's front pages.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQ

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Is the evidence for this trend just this one video. I thought the he/him that/thone stuff was a trend and more people don't bother with it than do.

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Daily Mail down south getting hot and bothered about something to do with CoE considering gender neutrality for god.

Front page. Main story.

So much of this is about the older demographic (who vote and who have the most money) freaking at change, and this headline is emblematic of that.

It all serves to marginalise trans folk more and more. We're probably at the same point in the progress of humanity on this island as we were with gays in the 70s. I am ashamed of that.

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Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

Daily Mail down south getting hot and bothered about something to do with CoE considering gender neutrality for god.

Front page. Main story.

So much of this is about the older demographic (who vote and who have the most money) freaking at change, and this headline is emblematic of that.

It all serves to marginalise trans folk more and more. We're probably at the same point in the progress of humanity on this island as we were with gays in the 70s. I am ashamed of that.

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We should have a trans James Bond. [emoji23]


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Originally Posted by 147lothian

It seems like GEN Z, 18 - 24 year old's that use TIKTOK are starting to reject gender identity politics, they are starting to call out the They/Them gremlins (That's what they call themselves) calling them weird and going too far, calling it chronically on-line behaviour, this is bad news for Nicola Sturgeon because if she thought she was tuning into what young people think, while young people on TIKTOK are turning against gender Self-ID. She has backed a lost cause. Fads come and go. The internet is not the same as the real world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcR7Nc3GHQ

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I don’t use til-tok, but isn’t that claim similar to saying people are starting to be racist on Facebook, which is bad news for non-racists? I.E it’s a social media platform with all sorts of ranging views, including unfortunate ones held by ignorant minorities.

Often those unfortunate ones are removed due to being inappropriate and harmful.

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Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

Daily Mail down south getting hot and bothered about something to do with CoE considering gender neutrality for god.

Front page. Main story.

So much of this is about the older demographic (who vote and who have the most money) freaking at change, and this headline is emblematic of that.

It all serves to marginalise trans folk more and more. We're probably at the same point in the progress of humanity on this island as we were with gays in the 70s. I am ashamed of that.

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You'll get dog's abuse for drawing parallels with previous inequality injustices. But you're right.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

You'll get dog's abuse for drawing parallels with previous inequality injustices. But you're right.

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Nah its nonsense. As joanna cherry says probably the biggest group of people opposing since the start women won't wheesht, have a large section from lesbian groups. They have been fighting inequality for decades. There's obviously bigoted people that oppose GRA no doubt, but the vast majority aren't and are cross party.

In every poll almost all agree with the vast majority of trans rights improvements. They are for the right to change sex easier, get married, adopt ect, but want a few caveats. To compare that to people's opinions on LGBT in the 70s is mental

People like to group everyone in a box but it weakens their argument to just being ridiculous

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I imagine now that the 'individual' has been named we'll see the story across most of tomorrow's front pages.

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https://news.stv.tv/east-central/galasheils-man-charged-after-missing-11-year-old-traced-after-search-operation-by-police-and-public

A man has been charged.

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Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

Daily Mail down south getting hot and bothered about something to do with CoE considering gender neutrality for god.

Front page. Main story.

So much of this is about the older demographic (who vote and who have the most money) freaking at change, and this headline is emblematic of that.

It all serves to marginalise trans folk more and more. We're probably at the same point in the progress of humanity on this island as we were with gays in the 70s. I am ashamed of that.

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I hesitated to respond to this as I know how it will go, but I think there are some issues with how you are representing this. While on a superficial level there are comparisons, they don't stand up to much examination. What we are witnessing now is a clash of rights. I can't think of a single case where advancing the rights of gay people took away rights from anyone else. You could argue that, at the margins, there were cases about services provided, etc. But I struggle to see any negative impact on society of providing rights for gay people, but I do see lots of positives. The current debate about trans lives is different on so many levels. While I think people are generally sympathetic and have live and let live attitudes, there is encroachment, particularly on women's rights. There have been lots of attempts on here to dismiss or minimise these on here. In addition, I do think it is legitimate to have debate about the impact on society of medicalised and drug supported pathways which are, in many cases, irreversible. That is absolutely not to say that these routes should be closed off where they are needed. But this is one reason why the link to gay rights is weak. Indeed some gay people see this as an attack on their gay identity.

Unfortunately, this has got caught up in constitutional issues. There is a defend at all costs and attack at all costs mentality, which makes serious debate on a sensitive issue almost impossible. Where people raise issues they are described as anti trans. To my mind this is the same as describing the March on Washington as anti-white. It's not an attempt to seriously engage but rather to shut down.

My issues with the bill are the vagueness and muddle that I think it represents. I have mentioned before that a close family member was involved in supporting someone who physically transitioned. Their story could not be further from the noise that passes for debate just now.

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Originally Posted by archie

I hesitated to respond to this as I know how it will go, but I think there are some issues with how you are representing this. While on a superficial level there are comparisons, they don't stand up to much examination. What we are witnessing now is a clash of rights. I can't think of a single case where advancing the rights of gay people took away rights from anyone else. You could argue that, at the margins, there were cases about services provided, etc. But I struggle to see any negative impact on society of providing rights for gay people, but I do see lots of positives. The current debate about trans lives is different on so many levels. While I think people are generally sympathetic and have live and let live attitudes, there is encroachment, particularly on women's rights. There have been lots of attempts on here to dismiss or minimise these on here. In addition, I do think it is legitimate to have debate about the impact on society of medicalised and drug supported pathways which are, in many cases, irreversible. That is absolutely not to say that these routes should be closed off where they are needed. But this is one reason why the link to gay rights is weak. Indeed some gay people see this as an attack on their gay identity.

Unfortunately, this has got caught up in constitutional issues. There is a defend at all costs and attack at all costs mentality, which makes serious debate on a sensitive issue almost impossible. Where people raise issues they are described as anti trans. To my mind this is the same as describing the March on Washington as anti-white. It's not an attempt to seriously engage but rather to shut down.

My issues with the bill are the vagueness and muddle that I think it represents. I have mentioned before that a close family member was involved in supporting someone who physically transitioned. Their story could not be further from the noise that passes for debate just now.

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Thanks for the reply. I agree with a lot of it.

I don't expect folk to remember but I've said already on this thread that I don't have a view on the GRA as I don't know enough about it. I've had plenty of time to address that but I haven't and am still not informed enough to say anything one way or the other.

My posts aren't about the GRA. What I am appalled at is how it is suddenly open season on trans people generally. It is just as it used to be with gay people.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/galasheils-man-charged-after-missing-11-year-old-traced-after-search-operation-by-police-and-public

A man has been charged.

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Most outlets are now going with 'transgender butcher'. Could be yet another new niche gender I guess:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64563472

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

I don’t use til-tok, but isn’t that claim similar to saying people are starting to be racist on Facebook, which is bad news for non-racists? I.E it’s a social media platform with all sorts of ranging views, including unfortunate ones held by ignorant minorities.

Often those unfortunate ones are removed due to being inappropriate and harmful.

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I don't use tiktok either but that is no-where near what is being claimed all that is being said is that the more outlandish claims for example people identifying as a frog or wolf are being called out, which I guess was always going to happen because they were making the platform look ridiculous, so was always going to happen eventually, all that is being said is claims of identifying as something that is removed from reality is a fad, which users have got fed up with.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

I don't use tiktok either but that is no-where near what is being claimed all that is being said is that the more outlandish claims for example people identifying as a frog or wolf are being called out, which I guess was always going to happen because they were making the platform look ridiculous, so was always going to happen eventually, all that is being said is claims of identifying as something that is removed from reality is a fad, which users have got fed up with.

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When I said claimed I was referring to your positioning of things that it’s bad news for Nicola Sturgeon that something is being said on tik-tok.. when pretty much anything and everything is likely to be said on tik-tok.

Like I say, I don’t know that much about the platform so won’t argue the point any further 👍

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this, but it piqued my interest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/god-is-neither-male-nor-female-church-of-england-is-considering-gender-neutral-terms-12805759

PC gone mad, or an acceptance of the Divine Feminine?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this, but it piqued my interest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/god-is-neither-male-nor-female-church-of-england-is-considering-gender-neutral-terms-12805759

PC gone mad, or an acceptance of the Divine Feminine?

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Think it's something that will never happen but will be used by papers to try and froth anger on both sides, a bit like no schools singing bah bah blacksheep. Best ignored

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Think it's something that will never happen but will be used by papers to try and froth anger on both sides, a bit like no schools singing bah bah blacksheep. Best ignored

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I won't be ignoring it. 😀 I'm always open to.the DF concept, but that's perhaps for a separate thread

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I won't be ignoring it. 😀 I'm always open to.the DF concept, but that's perhaps for a separate thread

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I've no skin in the game as I think it's all rhubarb. I would have similar interests in the spiderman canon.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

I've no skin in the game as I think it's all rhubarb. I would have similar interests in the spiderman canon.

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I’ve had my suspicions, what with the tights and all…


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I’ve had my suspicions, what with the tights and all…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Spiderman fans would get their Web in a twist if you called them tights, unless you're talking about the church but I think that's more frocks

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this, but it piqued my interest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sk...terms-12805759

PC gone mad, or an acceptance of the Divine Feminine?

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The ancient Greeks, Aramiacs and Hebrews had this discussion millenia ago.

Iirc the answer they came up with is that God is "ineffable".

I don't have the words to describe what that means.

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Originally Posted by Kato

The ancient Greeks, Aramiacs and Hebrews had this discussion millenia ago.

Iirc the answer they came up with is that God is "ineffable".

I don't have the words to describe what that means.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

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:greengrin:greengrin

https://youtu.be/hjcXXkOHTeU

When God was a girl. 😉

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...rance-29173549

Interesting to see he's still being referred to as a man despite identifying as a female. Wonder how he'll be referred to in court.

It'll certainly save Sturgeon tying herself in knots again if the media stick with 'man'.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...rance-29173549

Interesting to see he's still being referred to as a man despite identifying as a female. Wonder how he'll be referred to in court.

It'll certainly save Sturgeon tying herself in knots again if the media stick with 'man'.

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Have you ever thought of being a linesman?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...rance-29173549

Interesting to see he's still being referred to as a man despite identifying as a female. Wonder how he'll be referred to in court.

It'll certainly save Sturgeon tying herself in knots again if the media stick with 'man'.

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Very interesting read, Ella Wheelan, exposed how Gender Self-ID doesn't stand up to scrutiny on Question Time when Jenny Gilruth tied herself in knots trying to evade her question.

Also Nicola Sturgeon has done mental gymnastics trying to defend Gender Self-ID, there is starting to be a realization within the SNP that making a niche issue a constitutional battle is political suicide considering the conflict in interests between trans rights to have Gender Self-ID and the rights of biological women to have same sex spaces. Trans women are women except when they're rapists is an Orwellian absurdity.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...askill-4018179

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64586523

A step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Very interesting read, Ella Wheelan, exposed how Gender Self-ID doesn't stand up to scrutiny on Question Time when Jenny Gilruth tied herself in knots trying to evade her question.

Also Nicola Sturgeon has done mental gymnastics trying to defend Gender Self-ID, there is starting to be a realization within the SNP that making a niche issue a constitutional battle is political suicide considering the conflict in interests between trans rights to have Gender Self-ID and the rights of biological women to have same sex spaces. Trans women are women except when they're rapists is an Orwellian absurdity.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...askill-4018179

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...tland-64579774

They seem to be sticking with 'man' in this case.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-64579774

They seem to be sticking with 'man' in this case.

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Presumably because, when charged, the suspect was comfortable with that.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...rance-29173549

Interesting to see he's still being referred to as a man despite identifying as a female. Wonder how he'll be referred to in court.

It'll certainly save Sturgeon tying herself in knots again if the media stick with 'man'.

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Make no mistake, Police Scotland acknowledging the reality of biological sex, over the fantasy world of 'I identify as' is one in the eye for Nicola Sturgeon.

I view Nicola Sturgeon as a very able politician she must know that she is doing the cause of independence harm, by sticking with the lunacy of Gender Self-ID.

It won't be long before Nicola Sturgeon takes a gig at the EU Mark my words.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Make no mistake, Police Scotland acknowledging the reality of biological sex, over the fantasy world of 'I identify as' is one in the eye for Nicola Sturgeon.

I view Nicola Sturgeon as a very able politician she must know that she is doing the cause of independence harm, by sticking with the lunacy of Gender Self-ID.

It won't be long before Nicola Sturgeon takes a gig at the EU Mark my words.

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Cool, as a non member state I take it that will happen after Scotland re-enters the EU.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Cool, as a non member state I take it that will happen after Scotland re-enters the EU.

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😂

Only gig in the EU she can take is at Scotland House and that won't pay enough. Can see her getting a UN job. If she's smart though she'll do the speech toures in the US, im sure she would do very well.

That utter buffoon Boris has apparently made 5 million from talks since he stopped being PM. Actually mind numbing and infuriating that people pay huge sums for him to bumble

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Cool, as a non member state I take it that will happen after Scotland re-enters the EU.

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Whether she goes to the EU or some other globalist organization like the World Health Organization or just retires and does nothing the point is the same that she will soon move away from front line politics for the sake of Independence. Dropping below a 50 percent lead in the opinion polls, a lead that took 30 years to build up over the madness of Gender Self-ID makes no sense to the cause of Independence, Stuart MacDonald SNP MP is the latest to break ranks and point this out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-64566957

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Presumably because, when charged, the suspect was comfortable with that.

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Perhaps. I just thought it was curious that, as the Record points out, both his/her Facebook accounts as Andrew/Amy identify as 'female' and that 'criminal incidents are recorded according to the self-identified gender of victims, witnesses and suspects'.

Bearing in mind today's reversal by Scottish prisons of Sturgeon's self-ID policy is it perhaps the case that Police Scotland have also departed from that policy in this case to spare her fresh pronoun pain?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Perhaps. I just thought it was curious that, as the Record points out, both his/her Facebook accounts as Andrew/Amy identify as 'female' and that 'criminal incidents are recorded according to the self-identified gender of victims, witnesses and suspects'.

Bearing in mind today's reversal by Scottish prisons of Sturgeon's self-ID policy is it perhaps the case that Police Scotland have also departed from that policy in this case to spare her fresh pronoun pain?

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PS were reviewing their gender-ID policy last year. AFAIK, they haven't announced any change

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

PS were reviewing their gender-ID policy last year. AFAIK, they haven't announced any change

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The change is all people will go temporarily to the prison of their gender at birth until assessment, that's been announced today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1623784415720615937

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The change is all people will go temporarily to the prison of their gender at birth until assessment, that's been announced today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1623784415720615937

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That's not Police Scotland, which is what we were talking about:)

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That's not Police Scotland, which is what we were talking about:)

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Thought your ps was for sps who did the uturn. It's pointless speculating on police Scotland as the man/woman could have asked to be charged as a man or might not even even want to be seen as a woman

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Thought your ps was for sps who did the uturn. It's pointless speculating on police Scotland as the man/woman could have asked to be charged as a man or might not even even want to be seen as a woman

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Agreed on that.

Edit. Just re-read the Sun piece. The headline is "Trans butcher charged...". The T word is unnecessary IMO, and only serves to help demonise an already marginalised community. Imagine if they had been described as gay, Muslim or (heaven forfend) cis.

https://www-walesonline-co-uk.cdn.am...asier-26174624


A step in the right direction in Wales. Wonder how long before England catches up?

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Originally Posted by McSwanky

Fair play, a well constructed argument, and a lot more refreshing to read than the usual demands for a yes/no answer from the likes of Douglas Ross.

I'll forgive your slightly clumsy language around autism, but I take the point. I don't think anyone should be forced into life altering decisions in childhood, like you I'd like to think that changing attitudes in our younger generation will render this pretty much a moot point. Hopefully people can live the life they want to live without feeling pressured into going down an irreversible path.

I'm not that well up on what changes re women's rights in this bill I'm afraid, but what I do know is that we can't constantly legislate based on the worst case scenario - the vast majority of people want to get along. Of course there will be, as there always is, a small number of people who want to get around the law for whatever personal gain they are after, but these people must be treated separately from everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty has to apply here, and the amendment previously mentioned should hopefully deal with 'the guilty ones.'

As always, heavily caveated with 'I don't really know what I'm talking about' vibes on my part.

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579

Sinead/Sean's story mirrors my concerns around the legislation when it comes to children.

I know that some people are going to say it's Alex Salmond he is only saying this because he is bitter, but the point he is making is basically the same as Stuart MacDonald SNP MP, that the cause of Scottish independence is being damaged by going down this rabbit hole of Gender Self-ID.

There is obviously a conflict that cannot be resolved between the nine SNP members who broke party whip to vote against the GRRB and Nicola Sturgeon, there is no way the SNP would have still been in this position if Alex Salmond was still in charge he would have sat down with the nine, and changed policy to avoid making it a constitutional issue.

The way that Ella Wheelan made Jenny Gilruth MSP tie herself in knots trying to avoid answering her question on Question Time and also the way Nicola Sturgeon has had to do mental gymnastics over Gender Self-ID, and has been reduced to incoherence. Must show that this is a fight they can't possibly win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsoU-hGkaAs

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

:greengrin:greengrin

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You may laugh but the question still remains - "Is God Mr Ineffable or Mrs Ineffable".

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579

Sinead/Sean's story mirrors my concerns around the legislation when it comes to children.

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Fair enough. It's a valid viewpoint. on the flip side, stories like this actually make me wonder if things would be better for the likes of Sinead/Sean after the legislation. With more acceptance (both legally and in their community) for people who want to live a certain way without going down the route of life changing surgery, health professionals may be more likely to suggest a 'wait and see' approach as people would be able to change gender (and back again) without so many hoops to jump through.

Just my tuppence.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

tie herself in knots

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If I had a pound for every time anyone has parroted that phrase on this thread, reckon I'd have enough to buy myself a pretty decent new pair of trainers! :greengrin

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579

Sinead/Sean's story mirrors my concerns around the legislation when it comes to children.

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This sums up why many think 16 is too young.

"Ms Watson said she was particularly worried about the idea that the age limit for legally changing gender could be lowered to 16.

"If you don't actually have gender dysphoria and you go down that route you end up like me, where you've irreversibly changed your body with hormones and surgery and you feel humiliated, you feel ashamed of yourself and you feel completely betrayed by the people that allowed this to happen," she says.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co....ivist-29173907

I know it's the Express, but IIRC Douglas was the one singled out by the Scottish Greens (and Lib Dem leader Alex Cole-Hamilton) as the sort of person who exemplified why the bill had been passed. Judging by the pic published they would appear to be fans.

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Originally Posted by James310

This sums up why many think 16 is too young.

"Ms Watson said she was particularly worried about the idea that the age limit for legally changing gender could be lowered to 16.

"If you don't actually have gender dysphoria and you go down that route you end up like me, where you've irreversibly changed your body with hormones and surgery and you feel humiliated, you feel ashamed of yourself and you feel completely betrayed by the people that allowed this to happen," she says.

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Anyone who has met an average 16 year old should be able to quickly conclude that they shouldn’t be making any unnecessary life changing decisions.

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Originally Posted by Paul1642

Anyone who has met an average 16 year old should be able to quickly conclude that they shouldn’t be making any unnecessary life changing decisions.

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Should they consent to their own medical treatment?

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Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

Should they consent to their own medical treatment?

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They can’t even get a tattoo at 16.

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Originally Posted by Paul1642

They can’t even get a tattoo at 16.

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Should they be able to consent to their own medical treatment?

I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

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:faf:

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

:faf:

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About as much debate as I expected the OP’s announcement to generate, but I suspect not what they were hoping for 😁

There are a couple of individuals that might just be capable of turning this into something mind you…

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

I will just leave this here to debate

In a joint statement both the Muslim & Indian Councils of the UK WITHDRAW all support for the Sturgeon/Green regime in Scotland demanding she resigns immediately saying Scotland is an amoral place and her policies are a disgrace.

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It's in the express. It must be right. 😂😂😂😂

Leaving this for debate. 😃