The Trans Rights Debate

[He's here!]

Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

I'm pretty sure she didn't say such even though I've not seen the conference in question. I'm also pretty sure that your thinly veiled rhetoric that constantly links transsexuals to rapist borders on hate speech. I'm surprised it's tolerated.

[Kato]

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Stuart Campbell belongs in that same list. Another character who has gone completely off the rails. I'm sure I saw a tweet of his not too long ago claiming that he was campaigning for the tory MP in his constituency for the next election. Very much on the same side it would seem.

Since his arrest and subsequent release he's pivoted on most of views.

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[147lothian]

Here is an American account of the Question Time debate, I think some people thought that when they saw Jenny Gilruth tying herself in knots with gender ideology politics, that Ella Whelan was attacking the SNP, I don't think that's the case at all because either Joanna Cherry or Ash Regan, would have made the same basic points that Ella Whelan made, that when 'I identify as' is taken seriously rather than the reality of biological sex, biological woman will suffer, in woman only spaces.

[James310]

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I'm pretty sure she didn't say such even though I've not seen the conference in question. I'm also pretty sure that your thinly veiled rhetoric that constantly links transsexuals to rapist borders on hate speech. I'm surprised it's tolerated.

Why do you feel that both Nicola Sturgeon and Jenny Gilruth now refuse to gender Bryson when Keith Brown was pretty clear she is a woman? Why can't she say Bryson is a woman and a rapist and will be treated as such. If the SG policy is someone is a woman if they say they are then follow through on that policy surely?

If you don't know then neither does anyone else and that's why questions are being asked, that seemingly won't be answered.

[WeeRussell]

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Party politics aside, are you strongly opposed to it completely, or was it just certain aspects of it you're not happy about? How do you feel about the Gillian Martin amendment, for instance?

“Party politics aside” 😂 good luck with that.

It’s the absolute only reason he’s on this thread/board every day.

[He's here!]

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I'm pretty sure she didn't say such even though I've not seen the conference in question. I'm also pretty sure that your thinly veiled rhetoric that constantly links transsexuals to rapist borders on hate speech. I'm surprised it's tolerated.

There's no veil, thin or otherwise, around my 'rhetoric'. I think it's fair comment to point out the obvious, that 'the rapist' is a man. It's tolerated because it's the truth.

[WeeRussell]

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Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

By “sounds like” do you mean you didn’t actually see it (similar to how you don’t tend to read the links you constantly post because you sense some anti-sturgeon in them) but went ahead and made up a lot of ***** and followed it with the “lost the plot” tagline.

[H18 SFR]

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Sounds like a fiasco of a press conference by Sturgeon earlier where she confirmed that in Scotland we now have three sexes, male, female and rapist. She's lost the plot.

Why won’t she answer the question? It makes no sense!

[He's here!]

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Party politics aside, are you strongly opposed to it completely, or was it just certain aspects of it you're not happy about? How do you feel about the Gillian Martin amendment, for instance?

Sorry, missed this earlier. I support the Martin/Greene amendment. Any rational person would. My opposition to the bill is, like most opponents, centred around the introduction of self-ID, the removal of any meaningful checks and balances for most wishing to transition and making it easier for children to embark on potentially irreversible procedures.

[McSwanky]

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Sorry, missed this earlier. I support the Martin/Greene amendment. Any rational person would. My opposition to the bill is, like most opponents, centred around the introduction of self-ID, the removal of any meaningful checks and balances for most wishing to transition and making it easier for children to embark on potentially irreversible procedures.

Thanks for taking the time to answer. So is there anything that would make it acceptable in your view? Any tweaks or amendments? Or is it simply beyond repair? What meaningful checks and balance (whatever that phrase means! ) would you propose?

Does the amendment in your view deal with the likes of the Isla Bryson case?

The point re children I'm also interested in. As I've mentioned before, my two kids have multiple peers in their schools who identify as different to the sex they were born with, and from where I'm sitting the kids just accept this and it's not treated as in any way strange (any more than enjoying Maths or the like is anyway!) In what way does this legislation make it easier for children to embark on irreversible procedures?

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[Hibrandenburg]

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Why do you feel that both Nicola Sturgeon and Jenny Gilruth now refuse to gender Bryson when Keith Brown was pretty clear she is a woman? Why can't she say Bryson is a woman and a rapist and will be treated as such. If the SG policy is someone is a woman if they say they are then follow through on that policy surely?

If you don't know then neither does anyone else and that's why questions are being asked, that seemingly won't be answered.

I've no idea why Sturgeon or Gilruth refuse to gender Bryson. I can only assume that they are waiting for a full assessment from experts of what is an exceptionally unusual state of affairs. But what I won't do is demonise the vast majority of transsexuals based on one or two isolated cases of perverts trying to play the law.

[James310]

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I've no idea why Sturgeon or Gilruth refuse to gender Bryson

Neither does anyone else so it's reasonable to ask that question if they continue to refuse to answer it, they surely either believe Bryson is a woman or a man. Imagine not being able to answer a fundamental question such as that.

But why do you think Keith Brown does not need this extra information and can gender Bryson as 'she' and be clear he thinks she is a woman? You must agree that at the very least there is a lack of consistency when one Government Minister can answer but another one can't when both are asked the same question.

But I go back to your point about needing extra information, how do you think that would be gathered under a process of self ID? I don't see how it can but maybe I am missing something.

[He's here!]

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Thanks for taking the time to answer. So is there anything that would make it acceptable in your view? Any tweaks or amendments? Or is it simply beyond repair? What meaningful checks and balance (whatever that phrase means! ) would you propose?

Does the amendment in your view deal with the likes of the Isla Bryson case?

The point re children I'm also interested in. As I've mentioned before, my two kids have multiple peers in their schools who identify as different to the sex they were born with, and from where I'm sitting the kids just accept this and it's not treated as in any way strange (any more than enjoying Maths or the like is anyway!) In what way does this legislation make it easier for children to embark on irreversible procedures?

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I've posted at length on most of what you're asking there, but I don't expect you to trawl back through the thread to read up on my views...suffice to say I'm not convinced trans people require the additional rights this bill offers. They are offered security and protection by the 2010 Equality Act and while the 2004 GRA did impact on women's rights, it offered enough safeguards to reassure women that it would be difficult for bad faith actors to exploit it. I feel that any political goodwill which might have originally lain behind the proposed reforms has already been (predictably) overshadowed by the erosion of goodwill towards trans people due to the opportunities the legislation offers those bad faith actors to take advantage of it. If anything, the sweeping away of safeguards will undermine rather than enhance trans rights and make life harder for them.

Re children I think scant attention has been paid to the view that gender dysphoria can be transient and associated with issues such as puberty (and its attendant discomforts), coming to terms with same sex attraction, childhood trauma or even conditions like autism etc. I think the approach of discredited charities like Mermaids and their insistence that gender dysphoria is always indicative of a fixed trans identity is hugely dangerous and can lead to ill-advised medical treatment that may well be regretted. Like your kids, mine are very relaxed about the number of their peers who identify as a different gender and I myself find it quite uplifting to see the number of young people who are clearly adopting a 'gender fluid' approach to life. However, I think reducing the age at which kids can make what can be irreversible changes in that direction is a step too far.

In short, I don't believe Sturgeon has shown herself capable of legislating on these issues and the bill should be either, as Joanna Cherry advocates, signifcantly amended, or simply set aside as a badly bungled piece of legislation.

[He's here!]

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By “sounds like” do you mean you didn’t actually see it (similar to how you don’t tend to read the links you constantly post because you sense some anti-sturgeon in them) but went ahead and made up a lot of ***** and followed it with the “lost the plot” tagline.

You seem to reckon you know what I think and do pretty well. What are your own views on whether Bryson is a man, woman...or the new third sex 'rapist'?

In answer to your question, I read the reports of the press conference then viewed it see if Sturgeon really did get herself into as big a pickle as was reported. Turns out she did. After over a week of failing to answer a simple question she now has no alternative to maintaining this ridiculous 'the individual is a rapist' line because if she concedes he's a man she undermines her own legislation (which she claimed nobody would exploit) and if she says he's a woman (ie a woman who can commit rape) she just looks daft.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Neither does anyone else so it's reasonable to ask that question if they continue to refuse to answer it, they surely either believe Bryson is a woman or a man. Imagine not being able to answer a fundamental question such as that.

But why do you think Keith Brown does not need this extra information and can gender Bryson as 'she' and be clear he thinks she is a woman? You must agree that at the very least there is a lack of consistency when one Government Minister can answer but another one can't when both are asked the same question.

But I go back to your point about needing extra information, how do you think that would be gathered under a process of self ID? I don't see how it can but maybe I am missing something.

Why is your opinion different to mine James? People are allowed to have different opinions, even government ministers. That said, Gilruth and Sturgeon haven't really expressed an opinion by not "gendering" Bryson, maybe they are still waiting to form an opinion based on expert evaluation, what in my book seems a sensible thing to do and what will probably always happen in extreme circumstances like the Bryson case. You do accept that the Bryson case is an extreme example or do you believe that all transsexuals need to be put under the microscope?

[McSwanky]

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I've posted at length on most of what you're asking there, but I don't expect you to trawl back through the thread to read up on my views...suffice to say I'm not convinced trans people require the additional rights this bill offers. They are offered security and protection by the 2010 Equality Act and while the 2004 GRA did impact on women's rights, it offered enough safeguards to reassure women that it would be difficult for bad faith actors to exploit it. I feel that any political goodwill which might have originally lain behind the proposed reforms has already been (predictably) overshadowed by the erosion of goodwill towards trans people due to the opportunities the legislation offers those bad faith actors to take advantage of it. If anything, the sweeping away of safeguards will undermine rather than enhance trans rights and make life harder for them.

Re children I think scant attention has been paid to the view that gender dysphoria can be transient and associated with issues such as puberty (and its attendant discomforts), coming to terms with same sex attraction, childhood trauma or even conditions like autism etc. I think the approach of discredited charities like Mermaids and their insistence that gender dysphoria is always indicative of a fixed trans identity is hugely dangerous and can lead to ill-advised medical treatment that may well be regretted. Like your kids, mine are very relaxed about the number of their peers who identify as a different gender and I myself find it quite uplifting to see the number of young people who are clearly adopting a 'gender fluid' approach to life. However, I think reducing the age at which kids can make what can be irreversible changes in that direction is a step too far.

In short, I don't believe Sturgeon has shown herself capable of legislating on these issues and the bill should be either, as Joanna Cherry advocates, signifcantly amended, or simply set aside as a badly bungled piece of legislation.

Fair play, a well constructed argument, and a lot more refreshing to read than the usual demands for a yes/no answer from the likes of Douglas Ross.

I'll forgive your slightly clumsy language around autism, but I take the point. I don't think anyone should be forced into life altering decisions in childhood, like you I'd like to think that changing attitudes in our younger generation will render this pretty much a moot point. Hopefully people can live the life they want to live without feeling pressured into going down an irreversible path.

I'm not that well up on what changes re women's rights in this bill I'm afraid, but what I do know is that we can't constantly legislate based on the worst case scenario - the vast majority of people want to get along. Of course there will be, as there always is, a small number of people who want to get around the law for whatever personal gain they are after, but these people must be treated separately from everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty has to apply here, and the amendment previously mentioned should hopefully deal with 'the guilty ones.'

As always, heavily caveated with 'I don't really know what I'm talking about' vibes on my part.

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[He's here!]

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Fair play, a well constructed argument, and a lot more refreshing to read than the usual demands for a yes/no answer from the likes of Douglas Ross.

I'll forgive your slightly clumsy language around autism, but I take the point. I don't think anyone should be forced into life altering decisions in childhood, like you I'd like to think that changing attitudes in our younger generation will render this pretty much a moot point. Hopefully people can live the life they want to live without feeling pressured into going down an irreversible path.

I'm not that well up on what changes re women's rights in this bill I'm afraid, but what I do know is that we can't constantly legislate based on the worst case scenario - the vast majority of people want to get along. Of course there will be, as there always is, a small number of people who want to get around the law for whatever personal gain they are after, but these people must be treated separately from everyone else. Innocent until proven guilty has to apply here, and the amendment previously mentioned should hopefully deal with 'the guilty ones.'

As always, heavily caveated with 'I don't really know what I'm talking about' vibes on my part.

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Yeh, apologies if that didn't come across well. I work one-to-one with autistic kids on an almost daily basis at work so I hesitated to include that as it does merit careful wording. I just didn't want to end up typing so much that it would put you off trying to read it!

[McSwanky]

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Yeh, apologies if that didn't come across well. I work one-to-one with autistic kids on an almost daily basis at work so I hesitated to include that as it does merit careful wording. I just didn't want to end up typing so much that it would put you off trying to read it!

No worries, I sometimes don't know what to say myself, and I should know!

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,h...on-gender-bill

52% of Scots asked said uk gov were right to block gra bill 32% said they were wrong. Much more interestingly whilst 52% of snp voters said they should not have blocked 31% said they should. Probably why it's not helped independence polling

[He's here!]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...s-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

[Kato]

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...s-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

In finding the 11 year old girl who is missing?

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[WeeRussell]

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In finding the 11 year old girl who is missing?

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The young girl is fairly local to me. Happy to reassure (for anyone that bizarrely would be in any doubt) that any feeling here is purely joy, gratitude, and relief at the lass being found safe and well, as opposed to linking any of the words used during efforts to find her to Nicola Sturgeon or her “difficulties”.

[Moulin Yarns]

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...s-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/house-cordoned-off-and-man-arrested-after-search-for-missing-11-year-old-girl-in-galashiels

No mention!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64557459


Again, no mention!!

https://planetradio.co.uk/borders/local/news/gattonside-police-search-lockdown/


This is getting ridiculous the number of news outlets missing the story!!!

[Kato]

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The young girl is fairly local to me. Happy to reassure (for anyone that bizarrely would be in any doubt) that any feeling here is purely joy, gratitude, and relief at the lass being found safe and well, as opposed to linking any of the words used during efforts to find her to Nicola Sturgeon or her “difficulties”.

That's brilliant, R.

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[Glory Lurker]

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...s-self-id-law/

The difficulties deepen.

I can't read beyond the paywall but I've no idea what you are trying to do here.

[Stairway 2 7]

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I can't read beyond the paywall but I've no idea what you are trying to do here.

Wasn't pay walled previously. Basically it said police Scotland are misgendering her as they are calling the kidnapper he, when they have identified as female for some years. Its the telegraph so could be rubbish, but I think that's roughly what it said

[Moulin Yarns]

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Wasn't pay walled previously. Basically it said police Scotland are misgendering her as they are calling the kidnapper he, when they have identified as female for some years. Its the telegraph so could be rubbish, but I think that's roughly what it said

Other sources say that they are cross dressing transvestite.

Not one scottish source even identify him that I've seen so far.

[Glory Lurker]

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Wasn't pay walled previously. Basically it said police Scotland are misgendering her as they are calling the kidnapper he, when they have identified as female for some years. Its the telegraph so could be rubbish, but I think that's roughly what it said

Who gives a flying one? Christ, the veins are bursting out the establishment's neck.

Should add my exasperation isn't aimed at you.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Other sources say that they are cross dressing transvestite.

Not one scottish source even identify him that I've seen so far.

It's pretty much happening in real time. Some places naming him/her some not. Telegraph will be in bother if they have named her and its not. They also have tweets from her saying she's a female now.

It will all come out in the next few days so probably daft to speculate either way I suppose