Brexit Referendum

[Moulin Yarns]

Right. **** this. We're ALL up **** creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.

Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all pissed off but na...vel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.

Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just piss off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, twats!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to ****ing Gibraltar. OK?

Politicians.
David. **** off. Shut the door behind you. Now.

George. You may be a twat but you're our twat. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.

Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the **** her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that ****ing bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.

Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the **** out of 'em.

Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we ****ing love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.

Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. **** it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?
Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that **** coming. We definitely need more of that good ****!



Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.




#‎weneedaplan Share!

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Right. **** this. We're ALL up **** creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.

Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all pissed off but na...vel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.

Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just piss off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, twats!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to ****ing Gibraltar. OK?

Politicians.
David. **** off. Shut the door behind you. Now.

George. You may be a twat but you're our twat. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.

Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the **** her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that ****ing bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.

Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the **** out of 'em.

Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we ****ing love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.

Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. **** it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?
Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that **** coming. We definitely need more of that good ****!



Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.




#‎weneedaplan Share!

Haha, good stuff. Would give you a thumbs up if I wasn't on my phone.. If we can agree on something EU related then maybe then anything is possible.

[Geo_1875]

Right. **** this. We're ALL up **** creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.

Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all pissed off but na...vel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.

Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just piss off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, twats!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to ****ing Gibraltar. OK?

Politicians.
David. **** off. Shut the door behind you. Now.

George. You may be a twat but you're our twat. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.

Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the **** her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that ****ing bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.

Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the **** out of 'em.

Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we ****ing love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.

Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. **** it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?
Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that **** coming. We definitely need more of that good ****!



Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.




#‎weneedaplan Share!

I was with you until you dropped that bombshell. You're welcome to her as long as you promise to keep her.

[blaikie]

Right. **** this. We're ALL up **** creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.

Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all pissed off but na...vel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.

Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just piss off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, twats!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to ****ing Gibraltar. OK?

Politicians.
David. **** off. Shut the door behind you. Now.

George. You may be a twat but you're our twat. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.

Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the **** her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that ****ing bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.

Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the **** out of 'em.

Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we ****ing love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.

Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. **** it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?
Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that **** coming. We definitely need more of that good ****!



Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.




#‎weneedaplan Share!
I just automatically read that in my head in the voice of Mark from
The Peep Show!!

[Moulin Yarns]

I just automatically read that in my head in the voice of Mark from
The Peep Show!!

Try it like Malcolm Tucker, it is even better :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlUETtTofmE

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlUETtTofmE


:not worth

[OsloHibs]

I find it fascinating that 38% of Scots voted leave despite hardly any scottish mps supporting the leave campaign.

[Hibrandenburg]

I find it fascinating that 38% of Scots voted leave despite hardly any scottish mps supporting the leave campaign.

I know a reasonably large group of people who live in Scotland but pay absolutely no attention to Holyrood, instead they only look towards Westminster for their political picture of what's happening in our country. There's no point discussing the pros and cons of independence with them when they don't even recognise our own devolved parliament.

[DaveF]

Sky reporting that European council have knocked back a meeting with Sturgeon saying its too early.

[degenerated]

Sky reporting that European council have knocked back a meeting with Sturgeon saying its too early.
Donald tusk has said its too early though she is meeting Martin Schultz tomorrow and juncker shortly I believe.
I think she may also have something arranged to sit down with verhofstadt, who will likely be part of the EU negotiation team on the brexit thing.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[jonty]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36648769

I take the polls nowadays with a pinch of salt, as they've been so catastrophically wrong in the recent referendums, but this one highlighted the striking difference in reasons for voting (bottom of article)

And given that we're not forced to adopt European laws (unless I picked this guy up wrong) I continue to struggle to see any real argument for leaving.
http://www.legalcheek.com/2016/06/university-of-liverpool-eu-law-lecturers-incredible-out-of-office-email-response-to-bremain-haters/

[OsloHibs]

I know a reasonably large group of people who live in Scotland but pay absolutely no attention to Holyrood, instead they only look towards Westminster for their political picture of what's happening in our country. There's no point discussing the pros and cons of independence with them when they don't even recognise our own devolved parliament.

You misunderstood!
I was meaning who does and who will represent them & their views? I find it fascinating that there is no party in Scotland that represented their vote to leave the EU.

If I had a vote, I'd have voted out too. I personally loathe the eu and all it represents.
Thank goodness norway didn't want in!

[ronaldo7]

You misunderstood!
I was meaning who does and who will represent them & their views? I find it fascinating that there is no party in Scotland that represented their vote to leave the EU.

If I had a vote, I'd have voted out too. I personally loathe the eu and all it represents.
Thank goodness norway didn't want in!

David Coburn and his Ukip pals.

[OsloHibs]

David Coburn and his Ukip pals.

Do they have a seat in Holyrood?

[ronaldo7]

Do they have a seat in Holyrood?

No, he's an MEP.

[JeMeSouviens]

From the Guardian:

Sarah Vine, the journalist who is married to Michael Gove, has used her column in the Daily Mail to write about what it was like in the Gove household as the result of the EU referendum came in.



Almost overnight, those of us on the winning side suddenly found ourselves re-cast as knuckle-dragging thugs, small-minded Little Englanders whose short-sighted bigotry had brought the nation to its knees, while making sweet Italian waitresses cry and stopping small Polish children from going to school.

Because of the immense power of the internet and social media, once a Twitterstorm reaches critical mass — which now happens at an alarming speed — it starts to become as real as thunder and lightning.

In a matter of hours, everything sunny about human nature seems to have been sucked out of the atmosphere and you are drenched in little 140-character balls of bitterness.

It’s hard to explain quite what it feels like, but imagine walking into a room in a lovely new dress and having every single person turn, point, throw back their heads with laughter and tell you it looks hideous.

You’d never wear it again, would you? In fact, chances are you’d rip it up and throw it straight in the bin. There have been moments over the past few days when I’ve felt like that dress.

My heart ****ing bleeds. :rolleyes:

[snooky]

From the Guardian:

Sarah Vine, the journalist who is married to Michael Gove, has used her column in the Daily Mail to write about what it was like in the Gove household as the result of the EU referendum came in.


My heart ****ing bleeds. :rolleyes:

My poor Sarah. What a cruel world you live in.

[Rasta_Hibs]

On what evidence?

It's just what I think, not stating it as a fact.

Without writing an essay about it and in nutshell I think the UK economic argument will win again and I do think the EU will break up further but I don't think it would be easy for indy Scotland to gain entry to the EU.

I always think indy Scotland campaigners always underestimate the love of the Union from Scottish people towards it.

[Hibbyradge]

My poor Sarah. What a cruel world you live in.

I feel sorry for the lovely dress.

It's one of the innocents in all this.

[CapitalGreen]

My poor Sarah. What a cruel world you live in.

She writes for the Daily Mail, she should know all about sucking out everything sunny about human nature.

[Hibbyradge]

It's just what I think, not stating it as a fact.

Without writing an essay about it and in nutshell I think the UK economic argument will win again and I do think the EU will break up further but I don't think it would be easy for indy Scotland to gain entry to the EU.

I always think indy Scotland campaigners always underestimate the love of the Union from Scottish people towards it.

The love of the union may have been a driver for some people.

The safety of the economy was key to many others and I'd suggest it was the factor that won it for Better Together.

Without the EU, the economy looks anything but secure. The argument that getting back in, or staying in, will be very persuasive, imo.

[snooky]

It's just what I think, not stating it as a fact.

Without writing an essay about it and in nutshell I think the UK economic argument will win again and I do think the EU will break up further but I don't think it would be easy for indy Scotland to gain entry to the EU.

I always think indy Scotland campaigners always underestimate the love of the Union from Scottish people towards it.

Nothing wrong with loving the Union however, it would be nice to be able to govern ourselves instead of being viewed as subordinant. It's that aspect that appears to be the fly in the ointment of happy families.

[Hibrandenburg]

From the Guardian:

Sarah Vine, the journalist who is married to Michael Gove, has used her column in the Daily Mail to write about what it was like in the Gove household as the result of the EU referendum came in.




My heart ****ing bleeds. :rolleyes:

Why don't they eat cake?

[Hibernia&Alba]

This all leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. That isn't sour grapes, it's just how I feel. Many of the claims/promises of Vote Leave were lies designed to play to fear or prejudice. Then there's the fact it was a very tight result UK wide and was clearly a different result in Scotland. There's also the turmoil within both the Conservatives and Labour parties and a deeply divided UK. It all feels a bit grubby and unpleasant.

[xyz23jc]

I was with you until you dropped that bombshell. You're welcome to her as long as you promise to keep her.

:agree: TBF, the K and L are quite close on the keyboard!:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

This all leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. That isn't sour grapes, it's just how I feel. Many of the claims/promises of Vote Leave were lies designed to play to fear or prejudice. Then there's the fact it was a very tight result UK wide and was clearly a different result in Scotland. There's also the turmoil within both the Conservatives and Labour parties and a deeply divided UK. It all feels a bit grubby and unpleasant.

It's the worst political situation I have ever known and with economic melt down just around the corner, it's extremely frightening.

Farage is the only winner in this. He's isolated financially from it all so he'll just sit back and purr. I bet he's got a white cat.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The love of the union may have been a driver for some people.

The safety of the economy was key to many others and I'd suggest it was the factor that won it for Better Together.

Without the EU, the economy looks anything but secure. The argument that getting back in, or staying in, will be very persuasive, imo.


It will all depend on how the two economies look around polling time.

If the eurozone, and the euro continues to look a mess, the uk might look appealing. Or vice versa.

I voted yes last time, but im not entirely convinced that having indy from the uk inside the eurozone would be any better than say, a federal uk. We are better represented in london than we would be in frankfurt.

Whats the point in hatd won independence if we immediately cede control of the most important aspects to a place even more remote, amd where the scottish voice is even less important?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's the worst political situation I have ever known and with economic melt down just around the corner, it's extremely frightening.

Farage is the only winner in this. He's isolated financially from it all so he'll just sit back and purr. I bet he's got a white cat.

Come on, economic meltdown?

I suspect the 2008 economic crisi was worse than this one.

[grunt]

Come on, economic meltdown?

I suspect the 2008 economic crisi was worse than this one.
This one is only 3 days old. Long way to go yet.

[High-On-Hibs]

It will all depend on how the two economies look around polling time.

If the eurozone, and the euro continues to look a mess, the uk might look appealing. Or vice versa.

I voted yes last time, but im not entirely convinced that having indy from the uk inside the eurozone would be any better than say, a federal uk. We are better represented in london than we would be in frankfurt.

Whats the point in hatd won independence if we immediately cede control of the most important aspects to a place even more remote, amd where the scottish voice is even less important?

Is a federal UK on the table? They promised us "devo max" during the Scottish Referendum. Which would indicate to me that the powers they have currently devolved to the Scottish Government are the maximum that they are ever likely to devolve. Not enough in my opinion.

In my view, it's not so much about representation any more, but where we'll be better of economically. We keep hearing on the news that Scotland's imports and exports are 5 times greater with the UK than with the EU. Well that was with a UK within the EU. With large business now talking about effectively pulling the plug, will our future trade with the UK be anywhere near as strong? It seems highly doubtful to me.

[JeMeSouviens]

It will all depend on how the two economies look around polling time.

If the eurozone, and the euro continues to look a mess, the uk might look appealing. Or vice versa.

I voted yes last time, but im not entirely convinced that having indy from the uk inside the eurozone would be any better than say, a federal uk. We are better represented in london than we would be in frankfurt.

Whats the point in hatd won independence if we immediately cede control of the most important aspects to a place even more remote, amd where the scottish voice is even less important?

1. What do you mean by "a federal UK" and assuming you don't mean the current settlement, do you think there is any appetite in England to revisit Scotland's constitutional setup?
2. Could the Scottish voice be less important?
3. If we had our own currency, which "important aspects" are you worried about ceding to Frankfurt? (I'm assuming since you said Frankfurt rather than Brussels, you mean monetary policy?)

[Hibbyradge]

Come on, economic meltdown?

I suspect the 2008 economic crisi was worse than this one.

Firstly, I'm not trying to make a political point, I'm just very worried.

I don't know how bad this phase of the downturn will get, but it's going to get worse before it gets better. It's only staying relatively stable just now because there is hope that a deal with Europe will be possible.

It will take another significant drop when Article 50 is triggered, but if we withdraw from the single market, you could be taking home your wages at lunchtime in a wheelbarrow and trying to spend them before teatime to beat inflation!

Exaggeration? I hope so, but I'm genuinely very scared.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This one is only 3 days old. Long way to go yet.

Indeed, but meltdown is hyperbole at the moment

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Is a federal UK on the table? They promised us "devo max" during the Scottish Referendum. Which would indicate to me that the powers they have currently devolved to the Scottish Government are the maximum that they are ever likely to devolve. Not enough in my opinion.

In my view, it's not so much about representation any more, but where we'll be better of economically. We keep hearing on the news that Scotland's imports and exports are 5 times greater with the UK than with the EU. Well that was with a UK within the EU. With large business now talking about effectively pulling the plug, will our future trade with the UK be anywhere near as strong? It seems highly doubtful to me.

We dont have devo max at the moment i dont think, nor were we promised it.

Its not in rhe table at the moment, but labour are apparently thinking about it, and if it could be done in such a way as to give scotland the best of both worlds, it would be a winner.

The questions you raise are valid, and the answer is nobody knows.

I do suspect that vert few businesses will pack up and leave. They might move some jobs. But i think all will wait to see what happens.

It could be that the uk becomes a more atttractive investment lication post brexit.

[High-On-Hibs]

We dont have devo max at the moment i dont think, nor were we promised it.

Its not in rhe table at the moment, but labour are apparently thinking about it, and if it could be done in such a way as to give scotland the best of both worlds, it would be a winner.

The questions you raise are valid, and the answer is nobody knows.

I do suspect that vert few businesses will pack up and leave. They might move some jobs. But i think all will wait to see what happens.

It could be that the uk becomes a more atttractive investment lication post brexit.

We were promised it. At the time when they breached the Edinburgh Agreement during Purdah. Something that gets swept under the rug every time they bring up the Edinburgh Agreement.

They'll think about it, they'll talk about it, they'll make us think that we're going to get it and as soon as we cave in, absolutely nothing will happen. That's how the UK political system deals with Scotland.

It doesn't matter that Labour are talking about it or thinking about it. They know they can promise us whatever they want, because they know they have no chance of winning the next election anyway, regardless of which establishment politician they replace Corbyn with. It's all a farce.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

1. What do you mean by "a federal UK" and assuming you don't mean the current settlement, do you think there is any appetite in England to revisit Scotland's constitutional setup?
2. Could the Scottish voice be less important?
3. If we had our own currency, which "important aspects" are you worried about ceding to Frankfurt? (I'm assuming since you said Frankfurt rather than Brussels, you mean monetary policy?)


I dont know, but federalism (devomax) has always been the will of the scottish people, and it might now also appeal to london. Im not saying for def.

Yes, it absolutely could and would. A union of 400 million citizens and 28 nations is a more crowded market place than 65 milliln and 4. And scotland certainly would not make up 10% of the european parliament.

Yes, fighting hard for economic levers from london, then ceding them to Frankfurt. Again there is no dount that scotland has more consideration in the bank of england and HM Trrasury than it would in the ECB and eurozone.

Im not advocating here, im just pointing out some of the difficulties. Remember, the snp would need to convince around half a million voters to change their vote - their case would need to be persuasive, and the emotion of leaving the eu woyld IMO be trumped by the emotion of leaving the union for many.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

We were promised it. At the time when they breached the Edinburgh Agreement during Purdah. Something that gets swept under the rug every time they bring up the Edinburgh Agreement.

They'll think about it, they'll talk about it, they'll make us think that we're going to get it and as soon as we cave in, absolutely nothing will happen. That's how the UK political system deals with Scotland.

It doesn't matter that Labour are talking about it or thinking about it. They know they can promise us whatever they want, because they know they have no chance of winning the next election anyway, regardless of which establishment politician they replace Corbyn with. It's all a farce.

Im not sure they did, but we can agree to disagree.

Maybe you are right, but the EU are also known for being ruthlessly duplicitous and anti-democratic in their dealings with dissent. Re-running referendums when they didnt like the answers, avoiding them altogether, their dealings with greece.

Politics follows interests, and the rational decision that needs to be made is where woyld Scotland's best interests lie. It is not as straight forward a question as rhe post brexit vote hysteria is making out

[High-On-Hibs]

Im not sure they did, but we can agree to disagree.

Maybe you are right, but the EU are also known for being ruthlessly duplicitous and anti-democratic in their dealings with dissent. Re-running referendums when they didnt like the answers, avoiding them altogether, their dealings with greece.

Politics follows interests, and the rational decision that needs to be made is where woyld Scotland's best interests lie. It is not as straight forward a question as rhe post brexit vote hysteria is making out

In what way have they been "duplicitous" or "anti-democratic" in their dealings with dissent? Can you at least give some examples of this? You talk about referendum re-runs when they didn't like the answers, when has this occurred?

Their dealings with Greece was always going to be messy. However, it's their job to protect the economic interests of all EU members. Caving into Greece would not have been in the best economic interests of the other members. Tough choices were made, but had to be made non the less.

I agree with you completely about it not being a straight forward question. There is great complexity behind all of this and the picture could take years to become clearer. All we can do right now is speculate and share opinions about what we think would be the best way forward for this country.

[JeMeSouviens]

I dont know, but federalism (devomax) has always been the will of the scottish people, and it might now also appeal to london. Im not saying for def.

Yes, it absolutely could and would. A union of 400 million citizens and 28 nations is a more crowded market place than 65 milliln and 4. And scotland certainly would not make up 10% of the european parliament.

Yes, fighting hard for economic levers from london, then ceding them to Frankfurt. Again there is no dount that scotland has more consideration in the bank of england and HM Trrasury than it would in the ECB and eurozone.

Im not advocating here, im just pointing out some of the difficulties. Remember, the snp would need to convince around half a million voters to change their vote - their case would need to be persuasive, and the emotion of leaving the eu woyld IMO be trumped by the emotion of leaving the union for many.

Westminster is in absolute chaos. The time and effort required to put together a constitution that would make devo-max work is (imo) staggeringly unlikely to happen. Scottish Labour is interested, there is no sign that UK Labour are and in any case, neither looks like being anywhere near power for decades. It's independence in the EU or status quo in a Brexit UK, I think.

Practically I think the consideration given to Scotland by the BoE is approx. 0 and the consideration given to Scotland by the ECB would by uncanny coincidence be approx. 0. :rolleyes:

:confused: What economic levers would we have to cede to Frankfurt? You're not labouring under the misapprehension we'd "have to join the Euro" are you?

Scotland would probably have to theoretically commit to joining the Euro at some unspecified point in the future but in practice, the only option open to us is our own currency. You can't join the Euro unless you have been in ERM2 for 2 years and meet the convergence criteria.

There are currently 7 EU countries theoretically committed to joining the Euro but not in ERM2 and with no stated timetable to join. (Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania and Sweden).

Sweden has been in this position since the Euro was launched.

[snooky]

A few months of bum squeaking and Brexit2 announced (staving off Indyref2).
Huge vote in England to stay in Europe (Scotland changes & votes to leave)
Everything back to normal. 'Phew!' says Westmonster. 'Sorted.'
Put the kettle on, mother. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

In what way have they been "duplicitous" or "anti-democratic" in their dealings with dissent? Can you at least give some examples of this? You talk about referendum re-runs when they didn't like the answers, when has this occurred?

Their dealings with Greece was always going to be messy. However, it's their job to protect the economic interests of all EU members. Caving into Greece would not have been in the best economic interests of the other members. Tough choices were made, but had to be made non the less.

I agree with you completely about it not being a straight forward question. There is great complexity behind all of this and the picture could take years to become clearer. All we can do right now is speculate and share opinions about what we think would be the best way forward for this country.


I believe ireland re-ran the vote on the lisbon treaty.

I believe the lisbon treaty was a (barely) re-worked version of another treaty (rime perhaps?) that voters in both France and denmark rejected. I dont believe they were offered second votes, it was just ratified.

[Hibbyradge]

A few months of bum squeaking and Brexit2 announced (staving off Indyref2).
Huge vote in England to stay in Europe (Scotland changes & votes to leave)
Everything back to normal. 'Phew!' says Westmonster. 'Sorted.'
Put the kettle on, mother. :wink:

That's what I'm hoping for.

I'm pro independence, but I'm so desperate to stay in the EU, that I'd happily push back indy2ref to do so.

Of course, I understand there are others who have the opposite view.

[High-On-Hibs]

I believe ireland re-ran the vote on the lisbon treaty.

I believe the lisbon treaty was a (barely) re-worked version of another treaty (rime perhaps?) that voters in both France and denmark rejected. I dont believe they were offered second votes, it was just ratified.

As I understand the Ireland situation. The treaty was rejected by the Irish electorate in 2001. However, the Irish Government had a renegotiation of the treaty with certain exclusions, which they then presented to the electorate in another referendum in 2002. As for France and Denmark, the decision of ratification fell to their elected parliaments and wasn't enforced upon them by the EU Commission. So i'm not really sure how the argument can be made that the EU was in some way being undemocratic in this process.

[Hibbyradge]

I found this blog. It's obviously written in the5immediste aftermath of the result, but it still has resonance with me.


It is day four in the Big Brexit house.

I had hoped after Friday’s absolute catastrophe of a day that the country might somehow magically rally over the weekend. I mean, when you plunge your country into possible ruin on the promise of a golden future that will allow it to rise like a phoenix from the flames, you have a plan, right?

As it turns out, you don’t. The only person that seems to have any plan at all, and be acting on it rather than just spouting meaningless Churchillian rhetoric is Nicola Sturgeon, and I can’t even vote for her.

I was distraught and angry on Friday. I had hoped to feel better by today. Instead I am running on barely controlled rage and getting more enraged by the moment.

Here are a few things I am furious about:

Firstly, leave voters telling me to calm down. I’m sorry, many of you are my friends and family but you do not get to say this. I’m not angry at you individually. I’m angry at where we are and more, I’m incandescent at the way we got here. I have a right to be angry. I’m in the boat with you and I don’t like where we’re going. I have very little option with regard to getting out of the boat, and I’d feel happier if someone was actually steering it, but they’re not. I’m sorry if my anger makes you uncomfortable, but you have the choice to not to speak to me, or unfriend me if you feel better doing that. Please do, because I don’t think I’m going to get any less angry for quite some time.

Secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was ‘Advisory,’ not legally binding. The vote itself is not ‘democracy’. Democracy doesn’t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I haven’t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I don’t like, and I don’t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.

Thirdly, people telling me that what we have to do now is ‘pull together’ to ‘make this country great.’ Not one single person who has chastised me with the ‘pulling together’ line has actually answered me when I’ve asked how they’re going to do that. Unless you’re a millionaire or a business owner, or a politician, there are very few ways you can ‘pull together’ unless you’re going to get politically active. Like the term ‘democracy,’ it is being used in a way that is actually meaningless. Mostly, as far as I can see it is being used as short hand for ‘Don’t blame me. Don’t ask me. Don’t question me. I need to feel better about this and your questions are stopping me doing that.’ Sorry, not buying it. Tell me how you’re genuinely going to help our country ‘pull together’ and I’ll listen. Otherwise please shut up.

And I am doing something. I have joined a political party. I have joined the electoral reform society. I am attending a solidarity rally tomorrow for our city. I have signed petitions, however futile they might seem. I am taking action. I am attempting to get us out of this ****. I am reading everything I can find across every media source I can get to educate myself about what is happening to my country. I’m not cherry picking what I want to see and turning a blind eye to everything else.

What are you doing?

Fourthly, to the people who have actually said: ‘Enough now. I’m bored of this.’ Did you really think it would all be done and dusted by Friday tea time? As I said in my last post, this is the beginning of something that is going to have seismic repercussions for our country for years. Prepare to be bored witless, and frankly, don’t complain to me. I don’t have time to be bored. I’m too busy being horrified and upset.

Fifthly. Please, please don’t repeatedly tell me we are ‘Free’ now. We are not free. We are still in the EU, and with nobody willing to pull the trigger on article fifty, we may well be there for a good deal longer. Even if we had done it on Friday, please tell me how much freer you are, in real terms. If you can’t point to anything, please feel free to shut up. And what are you doing with that precious new freedom? Please enlighten me.

Sixthly: I am watching, over the last few days, in absolute horror as the far right start to move out of the shadows and back into centre stage again. My time line has been pinging with people reporting hate crime. There’s even a Twitter feed for it where they are gathering information in order to report it. It’s appearing in reports on my community Facebook page. It’s in my daughter’s school. It’s like someone took the lid off Pandora’s Box. Don’t tell me I’m exaggerating. Don’t tell me that reports can be twisted. Maybe they can, but it’s being taken seriously enough by everyone that matters and it is tabled for discussion in the House of Commons this week. It’s not as if they haven’t got other things to talk about. It’s happening and I’m appalled but sadly, not surprised.

Apropos of this, please do not tell me: ‘I’m not a racist’ if you voted leave. I get that, but I said that it would open the door to the far right, and it has and to pretend it hasn’t, and to not look or think about it is cowardly. And to say ‘I’m not a racist,’ is to imply that I’m making all this about you. I’m not, but I have a right to get angry and upset about the consequences of a decision you were a part of, however noble your intentions.

Seventhly, to the people who are saying we are now able to govern ourselves and we are free of the unelected shackles of Brussels dictating to us. Farage is unelected. Gove/Boris or whoever takes over from Cameron will be unelected. The House of Lords is unelected. The queen, who keeps being wheeled out as a symbol of our great democracy for reasons I cannot understand, is unelected. You are being taken into the future by largely unelected ****wits who have already lied to you and broken every promise you gave them power for. Do not talk to me about the shackles of Brussels.

Eighthly gets several paragraphs because it’s such a cluster****.

Our government has imploded in on itself. Cameron made one, cowardly speech on Friday and bailed on us. Now most of the conservatives are too busy fighting about who is going to be the inheritor of the steaming turd bequeathed by Cameron to do anything useful for us.

George Osborne, who only came out of hiding this morning and said ‘the economy is strong.’ This is not borne out in the annuities market crashing, RBS and Barclays suspending trading and the pound dropping like a stone, again. So for all those of you who smilingly told me that everything was fine and it was all over by Friday tea time, what say you now?

And I reiterate. This is only the start.

Boris finally emerging yesterday. His statement was not a statement, it was an article he wrote because that’s his job, and he got paid £5,000 to do it. He has admitted that he wants to stay in Europe, however Europe will have him. This means that we go to the single market or EEA. This means, for those of you who don’t know by now, that we pay the same amount into the EU as we have done previously in order to trade with them. It means that we still have to comply with all their trading regulations. It means that we still have to allow freedom of movement across borders. The one thing it doesn’t mean is that we get to keep our veto. So we have gambled everything for less. None of the things the leavers want will happen, but we will also be much worse off in almost every conceivable way. This basically means that what the leave campaigners fought for and won, was Boris’ ambition to run the country, not the ‘freedom’ of the nation.

Daniel Hannan, a major player in the leave campaign who voted to be ‘tough’ on immigration, has now back tracked on his promise and actually left twitter for a month because he’s exhausted from campaigning. How convenient. I already covered the lies about the £350 million, which have become more and more byzantine as the weekend has progressed.

Then there’s the implosion of the Labour party under Corbyn with MPs resigning in droves from his cabinet and a vote of no confidence expected any moment. I have seen both sides of the argument on Twitter and I am ashamed of them all. It smacks of fiddling while Rome burns.

In the meantime, Farage has suggested that the sensible thing to do would be to sack Mark Carney, the head of the Bank of England because he was too partisan before the referendum. Mark Carney, as far as I can see, is the only thing standing between us and having to wheel our pay home at lunch time in a barrow, and spend it before tea time to cheat devaluation. The only reason the markets rallied on Friday was because he’d stashed £250 billion down the sock drawer and waved it around a bit. It wasn’t because the markets had confidence in us, it was because he showed them the money.

And they are playing at this. None of them are making decisions. None of them are doing anything. Our country is a laughing stock, our economy is in free fall and our government has washed its hands of us in favour of stabbing each other in the back.

I’m glad to say there is no ninthly and tenthly, but at the rate we’re going, there will be by tea time.

[mmmmhibby]

I found this blog. It's obviously written in the5immediste aftermath of the result, but it still has resonance with me.


It is day four in the Big Brexit house.

I had hoped after Friday’s absolute catastrophe of a day that the country might somehow magically rally over the weekend. I mean, when you plunge your country into possible ruin on the promise of a golden future that will allow it to rise like a phoenix from the flames, you have a plan, right?

As it turns out, you don’t. The only person that seems to have any plan at all, and be acting on it rather than just spouting meaningless Churchillian rhetoric is Nicola Sturgeon, and I can’t even vote for her.

I was distraught and angry on Friday. I had hoped to feel better by today. Instead I am running on barely controlled rage and getting more enraged by the moment.

Here are a few things I am furious about:

Firstly, leave voters telling me to calm down. I’m sorry, many of you are my friends and family but you do not get to say this. I’m not angry at you individually. I’m angry at where we are and more, I’m incandescent at the way we got here. I have a right to be angry. I’m in the boat with you and I don’t like where we’re going. I have very little option with regard to getting out of the boat, and I’d feel happier if someone was actually steering it, but they’re not. I’m sorry if my anger makes you uncomfortable, but you have the choice to not to speak to me, or unfriend me if you feel better doing that. Please do, because I don’t think I’m going to get any less angry for quite some time.

Secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was ‘Advisory,’ not legally binding. The vote itself is not ‘democracy’. Democracy doesn’t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I haven’t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I don’t like, and I don’t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.

Thirdly, people telling me that what we have to do now is ‘pull together’ to ‘make this country great.’ Not one single person who has chastised me with the ‘pulling together’ line has actually answered me when I’ve asked how they’re going to do that. Unless you’re a millionaire or a business owner, or a politician, there are very few ways you can ‘pull together’ unless you’re going to get politically active. Like the term ‘democracy,’ it is being used in a way that is actually meaningless. Mostly, as far as I can see it is being used as short hand for ‘Don’t blame me. Don’t ask me. Don’t question me. I need to feel better about this and your questions are stopping me doing that.’ Sorry, not buying it. Tell me how you’re genuinely going to help our country ‘pull together’ and I’ll listen. Otherwise please shut up.

And I am doing something. I have joined a political party. I have joined the electoral reform society. I am attending a solidarity rally tomorrow for our city. I have signed petitions, however futile they might seem. I am taking action. I am attempting to get us out of this ****. I am reading everything I can find across every media source I can get to educate myself about what is happening to my country. I’m not cherry picking what I want to see and turning a blind eye to everything else.

What are you doing?

Fourthly, to the people who have actually said: ‘Enough now. I’m bored of this.’ Did you really think it would all be done and dusted by Friday tea time? As I said in my last post, this is the beginning of something that is going to have seismic repercussions for our country for years. Prepare to be bored witless, and frankly, don’t complain to me. I don’t have time to be bored. I’m too busy being horrified and upset.

Fifthly. Please, please don’t repeatedly tell me we are ‘Free’ now. We are not free. We are still in the EU, and with nobody willing to pull the trigger on article fifty, we may well be there for a good deal longer. Even if we had done it on Friday, please tell me how much freer you are, in real terms. If you can’t point to anything, please feel free to shut up. And what are you doing with that precious new freedom? Please enlighten me.

Sixthly: I am watching, over the last few days, in absolute horror as the far right start to move out of the shadows and back into centre stage again. My time line has been pinging with people reporting hate crime. There’s even a Twitter feed for it where they are gathering information in order to report it. It’s appearing in reports on my community Facebook page. It’s in my daughter’s school. It’s like someone took the lid off Pandora’s Box. Don’t tell me I’m exaggerating. Don’t tell me that reports can be twisted. Maybe they can, but it’s being taken seriously enough by everyone that matters and it is tabled for discussion in the House of Commons this week. It’s not as if they haven’t got other things to talk about. It’s happening and I’m appalled but sadly, not surprised.

Apropos of this, please do not tell me: ‘I’m not a racist’ if you voted leave. I get that, but I said that it would open the door to the far right, and it has and to pretend it hasn’t, and to not look or think about it is cowardly. And to say ‘I’m not a racist,’ is to imply that I’m making all this about you. I’m not, but I have a right to get angry and upset about the consequences of a decision you were a part of, however noble your intentions.

Seventhly, to the people who are saying we are now able to govern ourselves and we are free of the unelected shackles of Brussels dictating to us. Farage is unelected. Gove/Boris or whoever takes over from Cameron will be unelected. The House of Lords is unelected. The queen, who keeps being wheeled out as a symbol of our great democracy for reasons I cannot understand, is unelected. You are being taken into the future by largely unelected ****wits who have already lied to you and broken every promise you gave them power for. Do not talk to me about the shackles of Brussels.

Eighthly gets several paragraphs because it’s such a cluster****.

Our government has imploded in on itself. Cameron made one, cowardly speech on Friday and bailed on us. Now most of the conservatives are too busy fighting about who is going to be the inheritor of the steaming turd bequeathed by Cameron to do anything useful for us.

George Osborne, who only came out of hiding this morning and said ‘the economy is strong.’ This is not borne out in the annuities market crashing, RBS and Barclays suspending trading and the pound dropping like a stone, again. So for all those of you who smilingly told me that everything was fine and it was all over by Friday tea time, what say you now?

And I reiterate. This is only the start.

Boris finally emerging yesterday. His statement was not a statement, it was an article he wrote because that’s his job, and he got paid £5,000 to do it. He has admitted that he wants to stay in Europe, however Europe will have him. This means that we go to the single market or EEA. This means, for those of you who don’t know by now, that we pay the same amount into the EU as we have done previously in order to trade with them. It means that we still have to comply with all their trading regulations. It means that we still have to allow freedom of movement across borders. The one thing it doesn’t mean is that we get to keep our veto. So we have gambled everything for less. None of the things the leavers want will happen, but we will also be much worse off in almost every conceivable way. This basically means that what the leave campaigners fought for and won, was Boris’ ambition to run the country, not the ‘freedom’ of the nation.

Daniel Hannan, a major player in the leave campaign who voted to be ‘tough’ on immigration, has now back tracked on his promise and actually left twitter for a month because he’s exhausted from campaigning. How convenient. I already covered the lies about the £350 million, which have become more and more byzantine as the weekend has progressed.

Then there’s the implosion of the Labour party under Corbyn with MPs resigning in droves from his cabinet and a vote of no confidence expected any moment. I have seen both sides of the argument on Twitter and I am ashamed of them all. It smacks of fiddling while Rome burns.

In the meantime, Farage has suggested that the sensible thing to do would be to sack Mark Carney, the head of the Bank of England because he was too partisan before the referendum. Mark Carney, as far as I can see, is the only thing standing between us and having to wheel our pay home at lunch time in a barrow, and spend it before tea time to cheat devaluation. The only reason the markets rallied on Friday was because he’d stashed £250 billion down the sock drawer and waved it around a bit. It wasn’t because the markets had confidence in us, it was because he showed them the money.

And they are playing at this. None of them are making decisions. None of them are doing anything. Our country is a laughing stock, our economy is in free fall and our government has washed its hands of us in favour of stabbing each other in the back.

I’m glad to say there is no ninthly and tenthly, but at the rate we’re going, there will be by tea time.

WOW man, We hear yi Anna Soubry, did yi write this piece whilst on the marching powder?

[Hibbyradge]

WOW man, We hear yi Anna Soubry, did yi write this piece whilst on the marching powder?

As I said, it's a blog I found.

Good argument though. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As I said, it's a blog I found.

Good argument though. :wink:

Couldnt be bothered reading all of that!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As I understand the Ireland situation. The treaty was rejected by the Irish electorate in 2001. However, the Irish Government had a renegotiation of the treaty with certain exclusions, which they then presented to the electorate in another referendum in 2002. As for France and Denmark, the decision of ratification fell to their elected parliaments and wasn't enforced upon them by the EU Commission. So i'm not really sure how the argument can be made that the EU was in some way being undemocratic in this process.

Of course.

In your binary world, the eu are incapable of wrong action.

Your description above is not my understanding of tbe situation.

Heres a question - did the EU exist to serve its members? Or had it become about its members serving it?

[Hibbyradge]

Couldnt be bothered reading all of that!

Thanks for sharing your laziness confession.

I now know if I want to make a point that you might object to, I'll make it in the 18th paragraph! :greengrin:

[High-On-Hibs]

Of course.

In your binary world, the eu are incapable of wrong action.

Your description above is not my understanding of tbe situation.

Heres a question - did the EU exist to serve its members? Or had it become about its members serving it?

Well what is your understanding of that situation? You merely point out a situation, but fail to apply any real meaning to it. Explain to me what you feel the EU did that was so undemocratic in that situation.

As for your last line, you could apply that rhetric to any governing body across the world. Why only apply it to the EU?

[MyJo]

We dont have devo max at the moment i dont think, nor were we promised it.

Its not in rhe table at the moment, but labour are apparently thinking about it, and if it could be done in such a way as to give scotland the best of both worlds, it would be a winner.

The questions you raise are valid, and the answer is nobody knows.

I do suspect that vert few businesses will pack up and leave. They might move some jobs. But i think all will wait to see what happens.

It could be that the uk becomes a more atttractive investment lication post brexit.

The SNP wanted Devo Max to be included as an option in the referendum but that was refused by David Cameron. He insisted it be full independence or nothing which is why we got only the yes/no choice.

It was a ploy because he was confident that there was no way we would vote for independence and he didn't want to give up more powers to the scottish parliment, when it looked like there was a chance we would actually go for full independence "the pledge" was rolled out promising us further powers if we voted no.

IMO had Devo Max been an option on the referendum it would probably have been the clear winner but at the time of the agreement there was no appetite for giving more control to us.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Thanks for sharing your laziness confession.

I now know if I want to make a point that you might object to, I'll make it in the 18th paragraph! :greengrin:


6th or 7th would probably do it!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Well what is your understanding of that situation? You merely point out a situation, but fail to apply any real meaning to it. Explain to me what you feel the EU did that was so undemocratic in that situation.

As for your last line, you could apply that rhetric to any governing body across the world. Why only apply it to the EU?

Because rhe EU is thw subject of this debate, i would have thought that was obvious?

My memory, possibly hazy is that france and denmark voted down the lisbon treaty (or its predecessor) and ireland did likewise.

Ireland voted down another deal (possibly rhw bail out) which they rejected. They were then made ro vote again

The EU is famous - even among its supporters for being undemocratic.

Tell me, do you think its acceptable that there is an unelected executive?

[Hibbyradge]

6th or 7th would probably do it!!

No point taking any chances.

I've learnt a lesson from Boris Johnson's miscalculation.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The SNP wanted Devo Max to be included as an option in the referendum but that was refused by David Cameron. He insisted it be full independence or nothing which is why we got only the yes/no choice.

It was a ploy because he was confident that there was no way we would vote for independence and he didn't want to give up more powers to the scottish parliment, when it looked like there was a chance we would actually go for full independence "the pledge" was rolled out promising us further powers if we voted no.

IMO had Devo Max been an option on the referendum it would probably have been the clear winner but at the time of the agreement there was no appetite for giving more control to us.

Absolutely it would have won, by a landslide.

[High-On-Hibs]

Because rhe EU is thw subject of this debate, i would have thought that was obvious?

My memory, possibly hazy is that france and denmark voted down the lisbon treaty (or its predecessor) and ireland did likewise.

Ireland voted down another deal (possibly rhw bail out) which they rejected. They were then made ro vote again

The EU is famous - even among its supporters for being undemocratic.

Tell me, do you think its acceptable that there is an unelected executive?

The Irish Government chose to have a rerun. It's not like the EU Commission overruled them. It was an amendment which the Irish people voted in favour of. So I don't really see what the problem is?

[Moulin Yarns]

Because rhe EU is thw subject of this debate, i would have thought that was obvious?

My memory, possibly hazy is that france and denmark voted down the lisbon treaty (or its predecessor) and ireland did likewise.

Ireland voted down another deal (possibly rhw bail out) which they rejected. They were then made ro vote again

The EU is famous - even among its supporters for being undemocratic.

Tell me, do you think its acceptable that there is an unelected executive?


All of the info on treaties and EU referendums in all EU countries is here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union

The EU has always respected the decisions of the people so how you can say it is undemocratic is beyond belief

[High-On-Hibs]

Gove now thinking "Oh ****, Boris really could become Prime Minister now, what a disaster!"

[High-On-Hibs]

They voted to leave the EU because they were worried about the development of some kind of authoritarian regime. Well they'll know what a real authoritarian regime is if Theresa May crawls her way into power.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The Irish Government chose to have a rerun. It's not like the EU Commission overruled them. It was an amendment which the Irish people voted in favour of. So I don't really see what the problem is?

Ive enjoyed these debates, but i do find you very obtuse at times. I think deliberately so.

Let's just agree to disagree on the democratic tendencies (or otherwise) of the european union.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

All of the info on treaties and EU referendums in all EU countries is here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union

The EU has always respected the decisions of the people so how you can say it is undemocratic is beyond belief


Well lets just agree to disagree.

Unelected commissioners wielding enormous power, referendums where governments may (or may not be depending on your view) 'encouraged' to think again. It is a set of instituions that lack democratic legitimacy IMO.

Others onviously disagree.

[snooky]

They voted to leave the EU because they were worried about the development of some kind of authoritarian regime. Well they'll know what a real authoritarian regime is if Theresa May crawls her way into power.

She May or May not.
However, I hope it's the latter. To understate my position, she's not my type of person.

[High-On-Hibs]

Ive enjoyed these debates, but i do find you very obtuse at times. I think deliberately so.

Let's just agree to disagree on the democratic tendencies (or otherwise) of the european union.

You accuse me of being obtuse, yet you still fail to explain what the EU did in that situation which you consider to be "oh so undemocratic". At least back your point up with some degree of substance, or nobody will take it seriously.

[Moulin Yarns]

Because rhe EU is thw subject of this debate, i would have thought that was obvious?

My memory, possibly hazy is that france and denmark voted down the lisbon treaty (or its predecessor) and ireland did likewise.

Ireland voted down another deal (possibly rhw bail out) which they rejected. They were then made ro vote again

The EU is famous - even among its supporters for being undemocratic.

Tell me, do you think its acceptable that there is an unelected executive?


Well lets just agree to disagree.

Unelected commissioners wielding enormous power, referendums where governments may (or may not be depending on your view) 'encouraged' to think again. It is a set of instituions that lack democratic legitimacy IMO.

Others onviously disagree.

Can you explain who made them vote again?

Do you think it is acceptable to have an unelected upper House?

[Moulin Yarns]

This is in a Belgian newspaper today.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmLat0FWgAALGI_.jpg

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You accuse me of being obtuse, yet you still fail to explain what the EU did in that situation which you consider to be "oh so undemocratic". At least back your point up with some degree of substance, or nobody will take it seriously.

I believe that the EU encouraged governments to have another vote.

I also believe they encouraged governments not to have refs on lisbon treaty.

And then there are the unelected commission, which wield huge power and is very remote and unaccountable, not to mention unelected

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Can you explain who made them vote again?

Do you think it is acceptable to have an unelected upper House?

See poat above - its just my view.

No i do not, i think it is completely unacceptable.

Do you?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is in a Belgian newspaper today.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmLat0FWgAALGI_.jpg

Interesting.

I wonder if those who dismiss the concerns of leaders of member states will also dismiss this 'eu official' and their views?

[High-On-Hibs]

I believe that the EU encouraged governments to have another vote.

I also believe they encouraged governments not to have refs on lisbon treaty.

And then there are the unelected commission, which wield huge power and is very remote and unaccountable, not to mention unelected

Really? You're basing your entire argument on the EU being "undemocratic" because they "encourage" governments to make certain decisions?

We have the UK Government "encouraging" the Scottish Government not to hold another independence referendum. Doesn't that make them just as undemocratic as the EU in your mind?

[High-On-Hibs]

The old geezer on Victoria Derbyshire:

"I voted leave.... err I mean I voted remain and now regret voting remain and i'm delighted leave won." :faf:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Really? You're basing your entire argument on the EU being "undemocratic" because they "encourage" governments to make certain decisions?

We have the UK Government "encouraging" the Scottish Government not to hold another independence referendum. Doesn't that make them just as undemocratic as the EU in your mind?

No, i base my belief that they dont respect democracy when it doesnt suit their agenda on that.

I believe it is undemocratic because the key officials are unelected, their processes are complex, and the instituions are remote.

Of course, but we can remove rhe uk government via election. We can remove the scottish government via election. Er cannot remove rhe commission.

And no i dont think the uk govt are encouraging scotland, amd i dont think that example as analagous.

It would be more like us voting to leave the union, and then rhe uk govt leaning on us to have a second ref straight away.

Not unlike the scottish governmrnt at the moment actually!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Really? You're basing your entire argument on the EU being "undemocratic" because they "encourage" governments to make certain decisions?

We have the UK Government "encouraging" the Scottish Government not to hold another independence referendum. Doesn't that make them just as undemocratic as the EU in your mind?

You arr vert strong advocate of rhe EU as an institution.

What is it about it thaty you like so much?

[JeMeSouviens]

This is in a Belgian newspaper today.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmLat0FWgAALGI_.jpg

The source is La Libre, the leading French language daily in Belgium.

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/international/un-royaume-uni-de-perdu-une-ecosse-de-retrouvee-57741ab535705701fd922a48

It also says, "in the corridors of the institutions, some are making little effort to hide their smiles". :wink:

[High-On-Hibs]

No, i base my belief that they dont respect democracy when it doesnt suit their agenda on that.

Give one clear example where the EU Commission has directly intervened on the parliaments of their members to over turn a decision. Just one!


I believe it is undemocratic because the key officials are unelected, their processes are complex, and the instituions are remote.

They may be unelected. But then again, so are the House of Lords. You could also argue that the Conservative Party are "unelected" from the Scottish perspective, because we did not vote them in.


Of course, but we can remove rhe uk government via election. We can remove the scottish government via election. Er cannot remove rhe commission.

We can't remove the commission? I'm pretty sure that's what the UK have just voted to do. Have you been paying any attention?



It would be more like us voting to leave the union, and then rhe uk govt leaning on us to have a second ref straight away.

How do you know they won't? They may well ask for a referendum rerun in Scotland if we vote to leave. The EU Commission on the other hand isn't telling us to have a referendum rerun though. They're telling us we voted to leave the EU and should just get on with it. Seems fair to me.



You arr vert strong advocate of rhe EU as an institution.

What is it about it thaty you like so much?

I love the fact that we have freedom of movement and unrestricted access to the single market. I'm a great believer in building bridges over building borders. Yes, sometimes being a member of the EU means making compromises. But I believe in a world of compromise and friendship. My only regret about the EU is that it isn't a world wide union.

[JeMeSouviens]

Boris pulls out. Tosser. :rolleyes:

[High-On-Hibs]

Boris pulls out. Tosser. :rolleyes:

Highly predictable. He knows the United Kingdom is goosed. His plan for a marginal remain win has blown up in his face.

[JeMeSouviens]

Michael Gove - no back unstabbed.

[lord bunberry]

Boris pulls out. Tosser. :rolleyes:
He's a rat.

[snooky]

Boris pulls out. Tosser. :rolleyes:

"Boris the Shyster"

Who?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpz2OYf1QU

[Moulin Yarns]

The source is La Libre, the leading French language daily in Belgium.

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/international/un-royaume-uni-de-perdu-une-ecosse-de-retrouvee-57741ab535705701fd922a48

It also says, "in the corridors of the institutions, some are making little effort to hide their smiles". :wink:

Cheers, I couldn't remember where it was from



The UK has not yet decided to take the door of the Union, that Scotland is already preparing to enter through the window. Tuesday, British Prime Minister David Cameron was leaving for the last time, the table of the European Council, in an atmosphere of funeral ceremony. No doubt her chair she was still warm when the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon ambled on Wednesday in the corridors of the European institutions, seeking to strengthen ties with the Union to find, eventually, a place for his nation.

"If it comes to a point where independence (UK, Editor's note) is the only way to stay in the Union, the Scots should have the opportunity to make that choice," she stated June 29, before the slogan "Scotland in Europe" and Scottish and European flags sewn together. To believe that David Cameron has so sold the idea of "Better Together" ("Better together") to the Scots in the referendum on independence in 2014, they chose to make use of to convince Europeans .

The marathon started by the "First minister" in Brussels began with a meeting with President of the European Parliament Martin Schulz to end in a head-to-head with the Commission Jean-Claude Juncker. "It is barely Wednesday and have already met everyone," enthuses Scottish source.

Everyone, or almost. Donald Tusk, President of the European Council himself was absent from the appointment of Nicola Sturgeon book, saying that "this is not yet the right time." "He beside him worried States who do not want to comment on the British domestic situation. And London wants to monopolize the representation of the United Kingdom to discuss the Brexit" analyzes the Scottish source. At a time when Europeans are trying not to over drive the nail on the already difficult situation of David Cameron, a meeting between his "counterpart" Scottish and Donald Tusk would have fallen like a hair in the soup.

And would tense Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy who, refusing the EU gives grist to the Catalan separatists, has protested against any negotiations with the Scots. Cautious, Parliament and the Commission have also declined to comment after the visit of the leader of the Scottish National Party.

Nevertheless, Ms Sturgeon said it had reached in Brussels "very open and sympathy." "There is a change compared to 2014, when the Union looked askance independence of Scotland" also says Scottish diplomat.

In the corridors of institutions, some make little effort to hide their smiles at the thought of Eurosceptics reap what they have sown. What better way to prevent a domino effect across the continent Brexit than displaying the torn map of the UK? "All the better if Scotland becomes independent, we remain like that twenty-eight It's been two years that I say. EU will continue to exist, but not the UK," joked one European diplomat.

The same source said that the lawyers of the Council have already discussed the possibilities in Edinburgh. "If the Scots hurry, become independent before the separation process between London and the Union ends and say they are bound by the acquis, they could stay in the EU without difficulty by taking the Charter for the Kingdom -United." In short, most London dragged feet over Scotland will have time to prepare the ground for its accession to the Union. And most likely it is to convince the most reluctant Europeans, annoyed by the endless titubations British.

[snooky]

Michael Gove - no back unstabbed.

Himmler doppelganger?

[Pretty Boy]

Boris pulls out. Tosser. :rolleyes:

A classic case of 'doing a Dens 86' if ever there was one.

He knows what he's done and he doesn't want to be the one to deal with it. Total bottler.

[RyeSloan]

Michael Gove - no back unstabbed.

Was a pretty ruthless move that s for sure!

Still he's probably done us all a favour as having a PM with BJ as initials would have been a step too far!

[High-On-Hibs]

http://oi66.tinypic.com/t0gphw.jpg

[BroxburnHibee]

A classic case of 'doing a Dens 86' if ever there was one.

He knows what he's done and he doesn't want to be the one to deal with it. Total bottler.

Not so sure. Could see Theresa May calling him right now. She'll need someone to spearhead her Brexit department and Boris will want to stick the knife into Gove now.

[Moulin Yarns]

Boris pulls out. Tosser. :rolleyes:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmMeXdoWIAAfNG1.jpg

[Future17]

Boris pulls out. Tosser. :rolleyes:

If you're a tosser, do you need to pull out? :confused:

[pacoluna]

Not so sure. Could see Theresa May calling him right now. She'll need someone to spearhead her Brexit department and Boris will want to stick the knife into Gove now.

noticeably however he has not endorsed any other candidate. I suspect he will be waiting to see what possible offers will be on the table from each candidate before he chooses who he is going to endorse - definition of a political careerist.

I can see may and Gove the two leading candidates I suspect coming to some sort of agreement to save an other leader election.

[wpj]

Because its funded by George Soros basically and everything he touches is biased and tailored to suits his agenda or the agenda.

So called liberals as in there is no substance to their liberal views.

Like so called liberals who voted for a corrupt EU and then try and pass the same vote as being a vote for the leftwing liberal viewpoint. When in reality IMO it was a vote for Multinational Corporations, political greed and most of all it was a vote against democracy.

There is nothing liberal about a political elite who reside over mass unemployment on a continent whilst paying themselves in the most lavish terms possible - with lavish being the operative word!

At least they had a chance to vote against democracy :rolleyes:

[snooky]

Michael Heseltine (on BBC regarding Boris's scarpering) ... "I think there will be a profoud sense disMAY and contempt."
(Subtle hint there from Tarzan?)

Wow! Tories telling us the Bormeister is a buffoon?
Naw. Canny believe it. Who'd have thought?

[jonty]

Boris #Brexit #Borxit

[Colr]

Michael Gove - no back unstabbed.

What a weasel. Quite a divisive character. He has no chance!!

I wonder what today's surprise will be.

[Hibrandenburg]

What a weasel. Quite a divisive character. He has no chance!!

I wonder what today's surprise will be.

An utterly self serving walloper of a human being, he should have a fantastic career in the Conservative Party.

[ronaldo7]

It looks like we won't be getting any trade deals done until we completely Exit after A50 triggered and the two years completed. At best we will then go onto the WTO terms, unless the Tories have another plan.

Best deal for Scotland is to remain an outward looking nation with the EU.

[snooky]

What a weasel. Quite a divisive character. He has no chance!!

I wonder what today's surprise will be.

In one stroke Gove has not only ruined Boris Johnson's political career, he's ruined his own as well. He does have a nice side.

[JeMeSouviens]

John McDonnell outlining Labour's Brexit "plan" today:


McDonnell says he wants to be absolutely clear on immigration. After the UK leaves the EU “free movement of labour and people will come to an end”.

Anti-immigration feeling stemmed from austerity and economic uncertainty, he says, which Labour also needs to confront.

So they're going to confront anti-immigration feeling by caving in and appeasing it? Great. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

More from McDonnell (should really be on Labour thread now, I'm struggling to keep up tbh)


Peter Walker asks if disloyal MPs could be de-selected, but McDonnell says no they won’t. He says he is confident that MPs will unite behind the leader.

:confused:

Clearly he's decided it's stand-up comedy morning now. :rolleyes:

[SHODAN]

John McDonnell outlining Labour's Brexit "plan" today:



So they're going to confront anti-immigration feeling by caving in and appeasing it? Great. :rolleyes:

Wow, Labour can **** off then.

Theresa May also hinting she'll deport EU migrants. What a lovely country we have become - I say "we", but you won't find me referring to myself as British any more.

[marinello59]

John McDonnell outlining Labour's Brexit "plan" today:



So they're going to confront anti-immigration feeling by caving in and appeasing it? Great. :rolleyes:

I'm trying to convince myself that's not what he meant.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Wow, Labour can **** off then.

Theresa May also hinting she'll deport EU migrants. What a lovely country we have become - I say "we", but you won't find me referring to myself as British any more.

What aboot relocating to Denmark? :)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-jewellery-law-migrants-refugees-asylum-seekers-unhcr-united-nations-a7113056.html

[SHODAN]

What aboot relocating to Denmark? :)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-jewellery-law-migrants-refugees-asylum-seekers-unhcr-united-nations-a7113056.html

I'll be away to Sweden mate. A more tolerant, progressive, modern and forward thinking society you could not find. Plus, my former ultra anti-immigration mate hated it, so that's more than an endorsement. :wink:

[Rasta_Hibs]

I'll be away to Sweden mate. A more tolerant, progressive, modern and forward thinking society you could not find. Plus, my former ultra anti-immigration mate hated it, so that's more than an endorsement. :wink:

Yill be hard pushed to find better than Scotland IMO

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yill be hard pushed to find better than Scotland IMO

And the social attitudes polls all show that scotland is exactly the same as the rest of the uk on these issues.

[SHODAN]

And the social attitudes polls all show that scotland is exactly the same as the rest of the uk on these issues.

And yet not in the EU, therefore devoid of millions of pounds worth of funding my profession requires to stay relevant, and no freedom of movement which poses a threat to both employment (which Scotland desperately needs and will be regulated by a government which has completely different migrant trajectories to us) and the future of many people close to me including my partner.

If we're an independent country within the EU then there's no way I'll be leaving. If not then I really struggle to see the benefits.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And yet not in the EU, therefore devoid of millions of pounds worth of funding my profession requires to stay relevant, and no freedom of movement which poses a threat to both employment (which Scotland desperately needs and will be regulated by a government which has completely different migrant trajectories to us) and the future of many people close to me including my partner.

If we're an independent country within the EU then there's no way I'll be leaving. If not then I really struggle to see the benefits.

I suppose we will all make judgements based on what is best dor our own individual circumstances. All politics is local afterall!

[steakbake]

Yill be hard pushed to find better than Scotland IMO

I thought the SNP were ruining everything?

[High-On-Hibs]

It's sad to see so many people who vote purely for personal matters, but never consider Scotland as a whole. I genuinely believe that an independent Scotland can be more economically prosperous than the current state of affairs. However, it could take 10-15 years of relative hardship, before we start reaping the benefits of having full fiscal control over our own economy.

So really, I think things would get worse, before they got better. There are people who don't like this, because they don't see themselves being around when things begin to take an upturn. So they just want to stick with what we have now, even although that itself is uncertain.

What really sticks in my throat is when I hear "I voted leave for the younger generation". The younger generation never chose for this to happen. They take zero of the blame, but will be around to take all of the punishment from a UK that will not have proper access to the single market.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's sad to see so many people who vote purely for personal matters, but never consider Scotland as a whole. I genuinely believe that an independent Scotland can be more economically prosperous than the current state of affairs. However, it could take 10-15 years of relative hardship, before we start reaping the benefits of having full fiscal control over our own economy.

So really, I think things would get worse, before they got better. There are people who don't like this, because they don't see themselves being around when things begin to take an upturn. So they just want to stick with what we have now, even although that itself is uncertain.

What really sticks in my throat is when I hear "I voted leave for the younger generation". The younger generation never chose for this to happen. They take zero of the blame, but will be around to take all of the punishment from a UK that will not have proper access to the single market.


I do kinda agree, bit its what politics is. People will always judge what is best for them.

I think scotland could be more prosperous as an independent nation, but during the campaign i was very concerned about the palpable shift to the left that it took.

Dont get me wrong, i realise that was a calculated piece of positioning by the snp, but it worries me because if an indy scotland follows that approach, it will prob not become more prosperous. If it doesn't, lots of those who voted amd campaignitd for it will feel let down, betrayed even.

I think that lurch to the left was divisive and sets a new country up to fail from the start. I still voted yes, bit i was less so by the end of the campaign than i was at the outset.

[High-On-Hibs]

I do kinda agree, bit its what politics is. People will always judge what is best for them.

I think scotland could be more prosperous as an independent nation, but during the campaign i was very concerned about the palpable shift to the left that it took.

Dont get me wrong, i realise that was a calculated piece of positioning by the snp, but it worries me because if an indy scotland follows that approach, it will prob not become more prosperous. If it doesn't, lots of those who voted amd campaignitd for it will feel let down, betrayed even.

I think that lurch to the left was divisive and sets a new country up to fail from the start. I still voted yes, bit i was less so by the end of the campaign than i was at the outset.

Scotland isn't as left wing as it sometimes seems. There are people in the centre and on the right that back the SNP for the sole purpose of independence. I also don't think the SNP (assuming they would still exist in some form) would be quite as left leaning in an independent Scotland. I reckon they're more left leaning than they're comfortable with themselves at the moment, but only to try and nullify the effects of a UK Government that they consider to be too much to the right.

The SNP formed from both a centre right and centre left party and are traditionally central. I reckon they would move back to their traditional position should Scotland break politically with the UK.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Scotland isn't as left wing as it sometimes seems. There are people in the centre and on the right that back the SNP for the sole purpose of independence. I also don't think the SNP (assuming they would still exist in some form) would be quite as left leaning in an independent Scotland. I reckon they're more left leaning than they're comfortable with themselves at the moment, but only to try and nullify the effects of a UK Government that they consider to be too much to the right.

The SNP formed from both a centre right and centre left party and are traditionally central. I reckon they would move back to their traditional position should Scotland break politically with the UK.

I would fo further - traditionally they were more right od centre.

The lurxh to the left was deliberate positioning imo, but now that their base, and a huge chunk of their up and coming msps are cery glasgow centred, you habe to wonder if it will become permanent.

I agree, they simply couldnt be (and even now in dealings with them they are not all as lefty as rhey like to portray).

[Hibrandenburg]

I would fo further - traditionally they were more right od centre.

The lurxh to the left was deliberate positioning imo, but now that their base, and a huge chunk of their up and coming msps are cery glasgow centred, you habe to wonder if it will become permanent.

I agree, they simply couldnt be (and even now in dealings with them they are not all as lefty as rhey like to portray).

There's one thing that holds the SNP together and that's the strive for independence, as it is they're doing a decent job but if they ever achieve independence then the party will disintegrate as the natural order of things returns.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There's one thing that holds the SNP together and that's the strive for independence, as it is they're doing a decent job but if they ever achieve independence then the party will disintegrate as the natural order of things returns.

Yeah i agree.

Also a second lost ref might loosen the party discipline also.

[Moulin Yarns]

I would fo further - traditionally they were more right od centre.

The lurxh to the left was deliberate positioning imo, but now that their base, and a huge chunk of their up and coming msps are cery glasgow centred, you habe to wonder if it will become permanent.

I agree, they simply couldnt be (and even now in dealings with them they are not all as lefty as rhey like to portray).


Has someone messed about with your keyboard?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Has someone messed about with your keyboard?

Sorry mate, its annoying. Stupid touch screen ony phone with tiny buttons. Im not dyslexic...!

[High-On-Hibs]

Sorry mate, its annoying. Stupid touch screen ony phone with tiny buttons. Im not dyslexic...!

I am though. Your spelling looks perfect to me. :wink:

[OsloHibs]

I'll be away to Sweden mate. A more tolerant, progressive, modern and forward thinking society you could not find. Plus, my former ultra anti-immigration mate hated it, so that's more than an endorsement. :wink:

Sweden also has many problems, as do all the other Scandinavian countries.

[High-On-Hibs]

Scrap Sweden. Denmark is where it's all happening. http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/flag/Denmark.gif

[OsloHibs]

Scrap Sweden. Denmark is where it's all happening. http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/flag/Denmark.gif

You might change your mind after hibs play there!!!!!!
No, Denmark just like everywhere has problems with their far right DPP party on the rise. Sadly.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I thought the SNP were ruining everything?

Did you? Yir coming round then! :)

[High-On-Hibs]

You might change your mind after hibs play there!!!!!!
No, Denmark just like everywhere has problems with their far right DPP party on the rise. Sadly.

That may be. But the Social Democrats are still the best supported party in Denmark. They were just locked out by a coalition on the right. As long as the Social Democrats don't pull a UK Labour, they should hopefully see themselves back into power before too long.